Kevin Mitnick Interview Transcript, Part 1 ------------------------------------------ Leo Laporte spoke with the ex-hacker on 'The Screen Savers.' On the August 20 show of 'The Screen Savers,' Leo Laporte interviewed ex-hacker Kevin Mitnick. They discussed the good and bad aspects of hacking, the peculiar nature of Mitnick's trial and sentence, the current nature of hacking, and much more. Watch the video clips of the entire interview and read the transcript of the first half. Leo Laporte: Kevin, it's great to have you. I don't know how much of an intro I want to do for you. If people saw the signs that said, "Free Kevin" they know a little bit about your story... you went to jail... now, before we go any further, I've seen you write and say, "Hacking is a noble, honorable art," and I agree with you, but the media now calls bad guys hackers. It's been demonized. How do you feel about the use of the term "hacker" in the media? Kevin Mitnick: Well, I think the media spin "hacker" to be a real negative term, but I think it's a positive... I think of hacking more as a skill -- it depends on how you use that skill. You can use it for something productive or you can use it for something destructive. Laporte: Right, and you point out that really vandals might be a better term for someone who's destructive. Mitnick: Exactly. You know, there's all these different terms: crackers, hackers, black hats, white hats... Laporte: Yeah... Mitnick: ...gray hats. And it's like you have all these terms bandied about, but -- Laporte: Well, we've said that, having said that, I'm going to use the term hacker, if you don't mind, because everyone in the outside world thinks of it that way, and I won't... let's just point out it can be a good thing, it can be a bad thing, depending on what you do with it.. Mitnick: Exactly. Laporte: Is that fair enough? Mitnick: I agree with that 100 percent. Laporte: You went to jail for how long? Mitnick: For five years. I was held for four and a half years without trial. Laporte: That's, by the way, an extraordinarily long period of time to be -- Mitnick: People that are convicted of killing somebody spend less time in jail. Laporte: Yeah... Mitnick: But I was -- there was a lot of fear in my case. Laporte: Yeah, why did they -- they had you in prison with a bail for a very... for so long. Why? Mitnick: Well... well, I was a fugitive, so that probably... Laporte: That had something to do with it. They knew you could run again. Mitnick: I-I could do that. What was interesting in my case was that, not only was I held without bail, I never had my right to a bail hearing. Laporte: Right. Mitnick: They wouldn't even give me the bail hearing, but also I was held in solitary confinement for 8 months, because a federal prosecutor told the judge that I could start a nuclear war by whistling into the telephone. Laporte: (laughs) Could you? Mitnick: (laughs) Well, you have a phone on you? Let's try it out. (laughs) Laporte: Now, you're, you have a supervised release, and as you told me earlier, before the show, the Feds don't do a parole, but it's basically like parole. Mitnick: Right. They do probation, which is instead of going to prison. Laporte: Right. Mitnick: Or they do supervised release. And after you spend your time, you're out into the community for a certain amount of time, and you have a probation office, and you have to live under whatever terms and conditions the judge has set for you. Laporte: And in this case... no technology. Mitnick: Uh... I can't own or possess or use computers, cell phones, PDAs, uh... an organizer, like a Casio organizer... Laporte: You can't even use that. Mitnick: A television that has the ability to access the Internet -- Laporte: It must be very frustrating. Mitnick: Without the government's OK. Laporte: Wow. Mitnick: They did, they did recently give me permission to use a cell phone. Laporte: So you do have a cell phone. Mitnick: Yeah. Laporte: But that's -- Mitnick: So watch out. Laporte: (laughs) Mitnick: (laughs) You don't know what I could do with a cell phone. Laporte: What... you were convicted of wire fraud. Mitnick: Wire fraud and computer fraud, intercepting electronic communications... Laporte: What did you do? Mitnick: Basically I was really fascinated with computers since I was a young kid, and I wanted, I was very interested in becoming good at hacking, so one of the ways I wanted to do it was remain stealth, number one, and learn all the security vulnerabilities that existed in different operating systems. So what I did is I went after the source code of particular operating systems DEC made at the time: VMS, I went after, you know, SunOS, which was made by Sun Microsystems. Laporte: You downloaded -- Mitnick: I downloaded, I basically made a copy of source code for particular operating systems and for cell phones because I wanted to learn how the technology worked, and I also wanted to figure out the security vulnerabilities. Laporte: Did you do any damage? Did you destroy any files? Anything -- Mitnick: No, never erased any information or crashed any computer systems, but what I did do was any time I'd get access to a computer, I'd erase my audit trail. Laporte: Right. Mitnick: In other words, my presence of being there in order to protect myself. Laporte: Yeah. That's normal process for a hacker. Ah, you call yourself a reformed hacker. Would you, given the chance, do that kind of thing again? Mitnick: No. Absolutely not. Laporte: Why not? Mitnick: Well, first of all, the risks are to great, the benefits don't -- the benefit certainly does not outweigh the risk -- Laporte: Right. Mitnick: Plus, nowadays, with the low cost of computing technology, you can basically -- Laporte: Why bother? Mitnick: Exactly, why bother? You can set up your own system... Laporte: Right. Mitnick: ...and have fun. See, my, my thing was all about the exploration. The exploration, the knowledge, you know, the challenge of certain -- Laporte: That's what real hacking is really all about -- is exploring... Mitnick: That's what it really was for me, was about the exploration -- Laporte: Yeah... right. Mitnick: It wasn't about, you know, stealing, or crashing computer systems or sending viruses, it was all about -- and being, kinda being sneaky -- the thrill of being somewhere where you shouldn't. I was a... Laporte: But you started doing -- Mitnick: ...prankster. Laporte: ...this at a young age, I mean -- Mitnick: About seventeen was when I got involved in computers. I was, really started out in a hobby called phone phreaking. Laporte: Right. Mitnick: Which was exploiting the telephone network, and when telephone... when the phone company switches being computerized, well I wanted to learn about computers so I could control them. Laporte: Were you the kind of kid in class who was always pulling pranks and that kind of thing? Was that what you did? Mitnick: Well, I used to play cat and mouse with the teacher, and try to outsmart the teacher. You know, that's how I really started in hacking, trying to get the teacher's password, because the teacher would keep it a secret, even though he would log us into his personal account to use this little computer. Laporte: So you had access to the account -- Mitnick: Yeah. Laporte: He just didn't want you to know how to do it. Mitnick: Yeah, it was like, it didn't make sense to us, so it wasn't fun. Laporte: Did you get the password. Mitnick: Oh yeah. Many ways. Many times. (Both laugh) Laporte: You also told me that, uh, that the teacher at one point, because you were logging into the USC system, locked the phone... Mitnick: Yeah, he bought one of these, you know, locks with a dial phone that you could lock the phone... Laporte: Right. Mitnick: ...and he was really braggadocios in front of class, and says, 'Well, I found the one thing that's going to stop Kevin.' And he put it on the phone and I proceeded to show him how you can pulse out a number with the switch on, and dial anywhere in the world. And he was so upset, he took the phone, ripped it out of the wall and threw it across the room. So much no sense of humor, what can I say? Laporte: (laughs) This -- None of these things deterred you, you continued on and uh... Mitnick: I must say, I must say, I pushed the envelope. Laporte: You're now older and wiser. Mitnick: Much. Laporte: (laughs) When you were in prison, of course, there was a big Free Kevin movement. People were stenciling the name everywhere -- were you aware of that? Mitnick: Oh yeah. [unintelligible] courthouses -- Laporte: Right. Mitnick: It was all about, because... I believe the people that were really part of this grass-roots movement really believed I was the government's whipping boy. And yet, honestly, I did do some wrong things by trespassing into computer systems and I deserved to be punished for that, but it really went overboard with my case. I was, you know, really made the example, for a number of reasons. Laporte: Is that kind of thing still going on, in your opinion? Mitnick: Um... I think less so. I, um... Laporte: There's less fear now. We're, they're a little smarter now. Mitnick: Yeah, I think people have become have become much more knowledgeable about computer systems... Laporte: Yeah. Mitnick: ...and what the real threats are. I think, you know, where the real problem is, is like people who, like, write viruses and destructive type things, like Code Red, and uh... Laporte: Let's take a little break and talk about that. Now I know you've been out of touch for a while, but -- Mitnick: I keep up with technology. Laporte: You do keep up? Mitnick: Yes. Laporte: Let's take a break, come back, and talk a little about the current issues that are going on: viruses, worms, and continued hacking, and maybe just some advice for people, and some advice for kids who want to get into hacking... Mitnick: OK. Laporte: ...and a way to do it responsibly. Because every kid, everybody has that urge to explore... Mitnick: Yeah, it's the curiosity... Laporte: Yeah. Mitnick: ...and inquisitive nature. But there's a way to do it without going to jail. Laporte: That's what we want to find out. All right? Mitnick: OK. (Watch the video clip "Kevin Mitnick 2" to see the rest of the interview.) Originally posted August 22, 2001