mitnick-digest Friday, December 18 1998 Volume 01 : Number 223 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:01:43 -0800 (PST) From: Support Services Subject: Re: [mitnick] Re: Bylaws. (touched up a bit) On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 06:33:57 -0400, che guevara wrote: > > los angeles is not a 100-mile long county. > don't u have a subway system? You're right... Los Angeles County is not 100 miles long, it's more like 120 miles long. Sorry for the inaccuracy. Santa Barbara to Long Beach. Yes, we have a subway system. That doesn't mean it goes >from one end of Los Angeles to the other... at least not with many hours worth of transfers from line to line. - --- Do you Yahoo? So what. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:05:19 -0800 (PST) From: Support Services Subject: Re: [mitnick] bylaws & mission statement On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:19:10 -0800 (PST), rOTTEN wrote: > > Good point. If the 2600 meetings aren't good enough for your high > expectations, then do we have a club for YOU!. Little boys, why > don't you become more active in the 2600 meetings? Think about it. You're just jealous because you were almost expelled, even before joining. I'm a member of the 700 Club, by the way. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:32:21 EST From: DINOMITE1@aol.com Subject: Re: [mitnick] bylaws & mission statement i was agreeing with you, cheggy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:38:42 EST From: Phoenxknt@aol.com Subject: Re: [mitnick] misc.. Thank you Caliban, i also liked that movie. If you people would BOTHER TO READ the webpage (i forget the address, its like http://movies.mgm.com/hackers or something, search for it) it says to an extent, "We believe that this is what a hacker sees. In the opening scenes, Dade looks out the window and the skyline turns int o a circuit grid...the worm is seen as a thread of numbers moving under the surface of a file...". So no, they didn't WANT it to look real, nor did they try, they, as Caliban said, expressed the feeling. And tell ya what, Hacking would be even more fun (maybe a helluva lot more at that) if it was like that movie portrayed, not saying its not just fine how it is. ;) - -AM << >Hackers made hacking look like a laser light show. >I'm sure that Takedown will take a more realistic approach. I always interpreted that as an artistic decision; since hacking is very boring to watch but very exciting to do, let's show the audience something that reflects the excitement of actual hacking and not the boredom of watching someone else hacking. I was reasonably impressed by that decision, myself, since instead of confronting the issue of how technically correct to make the depiction they just ignored it -- concentrating instead on metaphors. Most of what Hackers depicted was a literal interpretation of the language used in most cyberpunkish novels, like "his face bathed in the multicolored glow of a computer screen" or "floating through a vast city of datastores" or even "speeding across the circuit board in a flurry of spinning electrons" -- and it was a really well-designed vision of all of these. Sure, it was glitzy and glamorous and really didn't look like you were REALLY watching people hack, but you have to remember that the movie wasn't filmed for hackers to go see. If it was, it would have been distributed on the net as four thousand and ninety-six UUencoded parts that assembled into one big password-protected archive -- which you would know the password to if you had the right connections, and if you didn't, then you could crack it rather trivially if you were a real hacker -- that contained four text files of the credits and a really big honking MPEG. Yeah, it was really stupid to think that was what hacking looked like... but it sure as hell is what it feels like. To me, anyway. I'm sure lots of people out there think hacking really is just as boring as watching text scroll up the screen. (Or conversely that watching text scroll is as exciting as hacking... which is probably an indication of someone VERY easy to please.) But if you don't think hacking is wondrous and beautiful and exciting, why the hell would you do it? If Takedown really wants to keep everyone happy with the depiction of the hacking, then none of it should happen on camera in the first place. >> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:50:57 EST From: Sacrosantx@aol.com Subject: Re: [mitnick] [followers; hackers] misc.. I must say since the idea of more wannabe-hackers is on subject somewhat.. oh ok it was just mentioned then I think I should show you this letter I received today. I only hope it doesn't turn out more people who think aol-punting is hacking as I just got this 'new' aol-riot (like the old version) and I almost had a heart attack when I read it. Heres what it said: - -----------------------------------------------------------------start-------- - --- Hello all of my on-line friends and foes, on December 20th there is going to be an AOL riot. All of the hackers of AOL I would like to unite together, from the biggest network hackers to the smallest chat room hackers I would like for you all to do your part. I want to see all of you tossing/punting/terming as many people as you see. I also want to see scrolling, lots of it. Scroll down in this mail and you will find a link for everything that you will need for this riot. I have some screen names and passwords, credit card numbers, virus's, adult member site user id's and passwords, loads of progs, pirated software, and if you never want to recive junk mail again go to the link and delete your name from the on-line list of people. I NEED FOR YOU ALL TO HELP ME ON THIS RIOT TELL ALL YOUR FRIENDS TO JUST HACK AOL ON THE 20th pz's my fellow hackers, part of a damage inc. production - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------en d This e-mail I received included a bundle of links to aol programs (i.e. punters/tos'ers). I can't help but feel sorry for the fool who thinks of this as hacking. But, somehow I know someday he will find out. lucid ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:44:09 EST From: ExeRoy@aol.com Subject: Re: [mitnick] bylaws & mission statement In a message dated 12/17/98 2:33:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, rotten@cyberverse.com writes: << I'm only in violation of the rough draft of the mission statement, which would make ousting me tentative. HA! Now back off, Habeus Crispus, before I don my Free Kevin serape, mutinize the clubhouse, take the marbles, and make myself Supreme Reigning High Holy Priest of the Free Kevin Local Chapters worldwide (tm)(c)(r) >> personally, i think it's people like rOTTEN who make this list interesting. heh. - - dangerz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:50:16 EST From: KetraSaj@aol.com Subject: Re: [mitnick] [followers; hackers] misc.. Argh....I'm not to active on the string...I don't think I could even be called a hacker in a computer sense (though if you've ever read Neal Stephenson's "Snow Krash", and I reccomend you do, i guess i could be a hacker in a broad- based sense regarding knowledge in general), but this sickens me...I mean.... "Hackers" could have been so much more. The term could mean good guys who tinker with a new technology and make it better, improving it to make the world a better place. Indeed, this is what it should mean. But with the rapid and exponentially increase influx of bored, nasty kids and home-grown software pirates who use daddy's CD burner to gyp companies out of $50 and call it hacking, and arrogant thugs who use their "talent" of exploiting holes in security already publicized and sprawling obscenities all over pages just because, the press has come to associate the term with badness.... ...We have been asking the press for a long time to respect true hackers, and don't apply the term to lowlifes. But they don't listen...maybe, just maybe, we can't take matters into our own hands somehow.... Can anyone think of a way to form some sort of vigilante justice group, to stop the bad 13 year olds (not all of them are bad, I'm sure...I won't even venture a guess as to what percent, I just don't know) and the others who exploit the term of hackers....the ones amongst the knowledge seekers who seek but do not damage should find some way of punishing the ones who mindlessly destruct. The trouble comes in with our government....the most logical way would simply be to turn them in...but as bad as what they do is, the american government would take them and abuse them beyond a point of their badness. So what is it that we can do to create justice without letting the goverment get involved? ~wayne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:41:22 EST From: mailinglist99@juno.com (Bob L Fraple) Subject: Re: [mitnick] [followers; hackers] misc.. First off, the press won't listen because "hacker" has a certain romanticism to it. It's a catch phrase, and attracts the readers. They have their simple minds set. It's going to take a miracle for them to change. But regarding the vigilante group, it probably won't work. It's promoting the same mentality as the Ku Klux Klan. They want a "pure white america." They feel people of other races somehow pollute this country and can't contribute. It's bullshit.. We want a pure lamer free Internet.. note the similarity? As hackers, we shouldn't waste our time on them. Even if we tried to "rid" the Internet of warez pirates and website-vandals posing as hackers, we won't get far. There will always be a new generation to take their place. It's a useless fight. But it's not hopeless, the true hackers will outshine them. Look at Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson.. They created Unix back in 1969. Their legend still lives on, unlike the criminals who deface websites. The criminals and vandals get their 15 minutes of fame, then fade away. - -tmwnn On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:50:16 EST KetraSaj@aol.com writes: >Argh....I'm not to active on the string...I don't think I could even >be called >a hacker in a computer sense (though if you've ever read Neal >Stephenson's >"Snow Krash", and I reccomend you do, i guess i could be a hacker in a >broad- >based sense regarding knowledge in general), but this sickens me...I >mean.... > >"Hackers" could have been so much more. The term could mean good guys >who >tinker with a new technology and make it better, improving it to make >the >world a better place. Indeed, this is what it should mean. > >But with the rapid and exponentially increase influx of bored, nasty >kids and >home-grown software pirates who use daddy's CD burner to gyp companies >out of >$50 and call it hacking, and arrogant thugs who use their "talent" of >exploiting holes in security already publicized and sprawling >obscenities all >over pages just because, the press has come to associate the term with >badness.... > >...We have been asking the press for a long time to respect true >hackers, and >don't apply the term to lowlifes. But they don't listen...maybe, just >maybe, >we can't take matters into our own hands somehow.... > >Can anyone think of a way to form some sort of vigilante justice >group, to >stop the bad 13 year olds (not all of them are bad, I'm sure...I won't >even >venture a guess as to what percent, I just don't know) and the others >who >exploit the term of hackers....the ones amongst the knowledge seekers >who seek >but do not damage should find some way of punishing the ones who >mindlessly >destruct. > >The trouble comes in with our government....the most logical way would >simply >be to turn them in...but as bad as what they do is, the american >government >would take them and abuse them beyond a point of their badness. > >So what is it that we can do to create justice without letting the >goverment >get involved? > >~wayne > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 01:09:48 EST From: Sacrosantx@aol.com Subject: Re: [mitnick] [followers; hackers] misc.. Did I forget to mention the subject of the e-mail was : "Hackers of the world unite". Sounds familiar eh? I wonder if he can get sued for saying that (trademark) or something? lucid ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:17:35 -0800 From: Caliban Tiresias Darklock Subject: Re: [mitnick] [followers; hackers] misc.. On 11:50 PM 12/17/98 -0500, I personally witnessed KetraSaj@aol.com jumping up to say: > >"Hackers" could have been so much more. The term could mean good guys who >tinker with a new technology and make it better, improving it to make the >world a better place. Indeed, this is what it should mean. Amen. >the ones amongst the knowledge seekers who seek >but do not damage should find some way of punishing the ones who mindlessly >destruct. Good idea... but... Let's assume someone writes a virus which gets into a small financial company's network in Florida and costs that company several million dollars. How should that person be punished for his mindless destruction? What if he didn't mean it? What if he didn't want the virus 'in the wild' to begin with? What if the virus escaping containment was a simple mistake, a momentary lapse in judgment that couldn't be retracted? What if he wrote the virus several years prior to the incident? What if he's sworn off viruses and system cracking altogether in the wake of much less spectacular incidents involving that virus? Is he still guilty, or should he be forgiven? Should he forgive himself? >The trouble comes in with our government....the most logical way would simply >be to turn them in...but as bad as what they do is, the american government >would take them and abuse them beyond a point of their badness. There is also a certain question of where the line is. Illegality is not the only question; there's a certain level of belief that hackers don't turn in other hackers. Sure, there's a point at which you ought to call a halt to it, but where is it? When someone profits materially from his hacking? When someone hurts others with his hacking? Where is that line? Did HFG hurt anyone with the NYT stunt? That's a big can of worms. From where I sit, they did. An awful lot of people disagree with me. It gets really heated when we try to discuss it. The question of whether they did or not, no matter how strongly I or others may feel about it, is secondary; the real point here is that there is a *tremendous* range of belief on the matter. There's a lot of justification and defensiveness in the hacker community. It's okay to cheat the phone company, because they overcharge us anyway. It's okay to cheat big software companies, because they profit greatly from minimal effort. It's okay to steal credit card numbers, because the consumer is only liable for $50 in unauthorised charges. It's okay to copy this software, because I haven't damaged the original. It's okay to break into this system, because I won't hurt anything. It's okay to look at Joe's email, because if he really cared about privacy he would encrypt it. It's okay to hack government computers, because the government is corrupt. We're a little community of Doctor Frankensteins. Whatever *I* want to do is justified, because I *can*, and that's a good enough excuse. Power corrupts. >So what is it that we can do to create justice without letting the goverment >get involved? That's a good question. But an even better question might be whether we should be in the business of creating justice at all. The major difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter is whether you agree with the ideology. - ----- | Caliban Tiresias Darklock caliban@darklock.com | Darklock Communications http://www.darklock.com/ | U L T I M A T E U N I V E R S E I S N O T D E A D | 774577496C6C6E457645727355626D4974H -=CABAL::3146=- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:23:30 -0800 (PST) From: rOTTEN Subject: Re: [mitnick] [followers; hackers] misc.. On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Caliban Tiresias Darklock wrote: > Let's assume someone writes a virus which gets into a small financial > company's network in Florida and costs that company several million > dollars. How should that person be punished for his mindless destruction? > > What if he didn't mean it? What if he didn't want the virus 'in the wild' > to begin with? What if the virus escaping containment was a simple mistake, > a momentary lapse in judgment that couldn't be retracted? What if he wrote > the virus several years prior to the incident? What if he's sworn off > viruses and system cracking altogether in the wake of much less spectacular > incidents involving that virus? > > Is he still guilty, or should he be forgiven? Should he forgive himself? Depends. Does he work for the government, or is he a tinkerer? > It's okay to copy > this software, because I haven't damaged the original. You can borrow books from the library, why not software? that's all I'm going to say on the matter. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:57:37 +0000 From: kerry Subject: [mitnick] Kevin's still waiting to review evidence I just heard that Kevin STILL hasn't gotten to start reviewing the computerized evidence in his case. There's just 4 months and 1 day until the trial starts; that means he has over 20000 4k-pages of evidence to review every day to get it all done by then, and if he has to wait until after Christmas to start, it's going to be a LOT more than that.... *********************************************************** FREE KEVIN bumperstickers http://www.mindspring.com/~jump0 *********************************************************** PO Box 17435 - Raleigh NC 27619 - email jump0@mindspring.com checks/money orders payable to "Free Kevin Publicity Fund" *********************************************************** Stickers are sold at cost plus postage - we make no profit from this effort - donations are split equally between Kevin's Defense Fund and the Free Kevin Publicity Fund. *********************************************************** F R E E K E V I N http://www.KevinMitnick.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 01:47:16 -0800 (PST) From: Support Services Subject: Re: [mitnick] [followers; hackers] misc.. On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:50:16 EST, KetraSaj wrote: > > But with the rapid and exponentially increase influx of bored, nasty > kids and home-grown software pirates who use daddy's CD burner to gyp > companies out of $50 and call it hacking, and arrogant thugs who use > their "talent" of exploiting holes in security already publicized and > sprawling obscenities all over pages just because, the press has come > to associate the term with badness.... I've got to add my million dollar comment to this one. What about the kid who sits at home with SoftICE and other debugging tools, and cracks the serial number on protected software? Now there's a good old-fashioned HACKER! Yes, he's a "cracker" -- but that's just a subsidiary of HACKER. Kind of like the binomial system of nomen- clature. Hackerus cracker, Hackerus webvandalus, Hackerus domesticus. Don't forget, Cuercas Alba too! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 01:48:18 -0800 (PST) From: Support Services Subject: Re: [mitnick] bylaws & mission statement On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:44:09 EST, ExeRoy wrote: > > personally, i think it's people like rOTTEN who make > this list interesting. heh. - dangerz Thank heaven there are scriptwriters like me on the list to feed him material... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 06:32:58 -0400 From: che guevara Subject: Re: [mitnick] Re: Bylaws. (touched up a bit) then i'll try to make an amendment permitting more than one Los Angeles chapter...any other counties like this? Support Services wrote: > > On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 06:33:57 -0400, che guevara wrote: > > > > los angeles is not a 100-mile long county. > > don't u have a subway system? > > You're right... Los Angeles County is not 100 miles long, > it's more like 120 miles long. Sorry for the inaccuracy. > Santa Barbara to Long Beach. > > Yes, we have a subway system. That doesn't mean it goes > >from one end of Los Angeles to the other... at least not > with many hours worth of transfers from line to line. > > --- > Do you Yahoo? So what. - -- :che guevara:: ::: ::: ::: "I never think of the future - it comes soon enough." -albert einstein ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 06:38:29 -0400 From: che guevara Subject: Re: [mitnick] [followers; hackers] misc.. yea, isn't that from some hackers.com homepage? write before the 2000 time clock, yea Sacrosantx@aol.com wrote: > > Did I forget to mention the subject of the e-mail was : > > "Hackers of the world unite". > > Sounds familiar eh? I wonder if he can get sued for saying that (trademark) or > something? > > lucid - -- :che guevara:: ::: ::: ::: "I never think of the future - it comes soon enough." -albert einstein ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 06:41:06 -0400 From: che guevara Subject: [mitnick] philosopher (slightly off-topic) did Caliban take philosophy or something in college? - -- :che guevara:: ::: ::: ::: "I never think of the future - it comes soon enough." -albert einstein ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 06:43:08 -0400 From: che guevara Subject: Re: [mitnick] Kevin's still waiting to review evidence THAT'S BULLSHIT! I think he should file ANOTHER motion to get the evidence to him How can they think that they can do this to him? Does Judge Pfaezler (whatever) know about this? If so, what's her problem? That's just plain fucked up btw kerry...i got ure bumber stickers, nice kerry wrote: > > I just heard that Kevin STILL hasn't gotten to start reviewing the > computerized evidence in his case. > > There's just 4 months and 1 day until the trial starts; that means he > has over 20000 4k-pages of evidence to review every day to get it all > done by then, and if he has to wait until after Christmas to start, it's > going to be a LOT more than that.... - -- :che guevara:: ::: ::: ::: "I never think of the future - it comes soon enough." -albert einstein ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:01:57 -0800 (PST) From: rOTTEN Subject: Re: [mitnick] philosopher (slightly off-topic) On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, che guevara wrote: > did Caliban take philosophy or something in college? I don't know. Why don't you ask him? <..rOTTEN..> nobody move, nobody get hurt error187(1) critical failure - - - - - - It was once said by a man who couldn't quit, "Dopeman, please can I have another hit?" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:39:27 -0800 (PST) From: Support Services Subject: Re: [mitnick] Kevin's still waiting to review evidence On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 06:43:08 -0400, che guevara wrote: > > THAT'S BULLSHIT! I think he should file ANOTHER motion to get > the evidence to him. How can they think that they can do this > to him? Does Judge Pfaezler (whatever) know about this? > If so, what's her problem? That's just plain fucked up File ANOTHER motion? What kind of bullshit is that???? The reason Kevin hasn't gotten to examine any of the evidence that was GIVEN TO HIS ATTORNEY is because his attorney doesn't have the time or inclination to MAKE IT AVAILABLE TO KEVIN. Think about it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:17:46 -0800 From: "Caliban Tiresias Darklock" Subject: Re: [mitnick] [followers; hackers] misc.. - -----Original Message----- From: rOTTEN To: mitnick@2600.com Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 11:44 PM Subject: Re: [mitnick] [followers; hackers] misc.. >You can borrow books from the library, why not software? Because nobody has managed to make a reasonably bulletproof copy protection for it. The market also dislikes copy protection, so it's probably not going to happen anytime soon. Except maybe with DIVX: $10 a week to use the software, must be run from the distribution disk. | Caliban Tiresias Darklock caliban@darklock.com | Darklock Communications http://www.darklock.com/ | U L T I M A T E U N I V E R S E I S N O T D E A D | 774577496C6C6E457645727355626D4974H -=CABAL::3146=- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:42:59 -0800 From: "Caliban Tiresias Darklock" Subject: Re: [mitnick] [followers; hackers] misc.. - -----Original Message----- From: Support Services To: mitnick@2600.com Date: Friday, December 18, 1998 2:04 AM Subject: Re: [mitnick] [followers; hackers] misc.. > >I've got to add my million dollar comment to this one. What about >the kid who sits at home with SoftICE and other debugging tools, and >cracks the serial number on protected software? How did he do it and what does he do next? If he uses a script with instructions like "go to location 800EF17 and enter 00 00 FF 7F", he's a lamer. If he uses a script that says "set a breakpoint immediately prior to the entry of the key procedure that handles the disk scan", he's a reasonably acceptable hacker candidate. If he uses no script at all, then he's as much a hacker as anyone else could claim. If he writes a script like the first example for everyone else to go follow and think they're hackers, then he's contributing to the insidious disease of hackerus lamerus wannabe-k00l, and should be smacked up. If he writes one like the second script, then he's educating people, and should be applauded. If he uses a script like either and then writes his own ripoff of that script to try and take credit for it, then he's a lamer among lamers who probably ought to be shot. That's my take on it. There are certainly other possibilities and other opinions. | Caliban Tiresias Darklock caliban@darklock.com | Darklock Communications http://www.darklock.com/ | U L T I M A T E U N I V E R S E I S N O T D E A D | 774577496C6C6E457645727355626D4974H -=CABAL::3146=- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:13:28 -0800 (PST) From: rOTTEN Subject: Re: [mitnick] [followers; hackers] misc.. On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Caliban Tiresias Darklock wrote: > >You can borrow books from the library, why not software? > > Because nobody has managed to make a reasonably bulletproof copy protection > for it. The market also dislikes copy protection, so it's probably not going > to happen anytime soon. Except maybe with DIVX: $10 a week to use the > software, must be run from the distribution disk. You can xerox books, why not software? THey don't have copy protection on literature. <..rOTTEN..> nobody move, nobody get hurt error187(1) critical failure - - - - - - It was once said by a man who couldn't quit, "Dopeman, please can I have another hit?" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:32:49 -0800 From: "Caliban Tiresias Darklock" Subject: Re: [mitnick] philosopher (significantly off-topic) - -----Original Message----- From: che guevara To: Kevin Mitnick List Date: Friday, December 18, 1998 3:55 AM Subject: [mitnick] philosopher (slightly off-topic) >did Caliban take philosophy or something in college? My degree is in occult science, an utterly useless field of study which frightens employers (and thus is not on my resume) and paved the way to my initial career path as a dishwasher at a ski resort. My boss had some modem problems about two years later, and once I had fixed them he asked with some confusion why the hell I was washing dishes for squat fifty an hour. It was a damn good question; to be honest, the idea that I could get PAID to work with computers had just never occurred to me. I've gotten over most of the embarrassment. | Caliban Tiresias Darklock caliban@darklock.com | Darklock Communications http://www.darklock.com/ | U L T I M A T E U N I V E R S E I S N O T D E A D | 774577496C6C6E457645727355626D4974H -=CABAL::3146=- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:27:15 -0800 From: "Caliban Tiresias Darklock" Subject: Re: [mitnick] [followers; hackers] misc.. - -----Original Message----- From: rOTTEN To: mitnick@2600.com Date: Friday, December 18, 1998 12:34 PM Subject: Re: [mitnick] [followers; hackers] misc.. >You can xerox books, why not software? You can copy software. It's just illegal to give those copies to anyone else. Just like books. You can xerox books all you want, but as soon as you start passing xerox copies of them around you're a criminal. >THey don't have copy protection on literature. Sure they do: it's called security through inconvenience. It requires significant additional hardware. You don't need a photocopier to read a book, but you need a computer to run software. Therefore, you may read a book without necessarily having the capacity to copy it, but you cannot normally use software without also having the capacity to copy it (unless you use a dickless workstation). Some literature IS copy-protected: AllState uses an odd shade of blue on its forms which doesn't photocopy at all. At least one issue of one magazine was printed in that color ink as a copy protection measure (I don't remember what it was, but an acquaintance of mine found it at the grocery store in 1996, and we weirded out over it for days). The existing IP laws are based on the assumption that copying is something which only certain people with expensive and hard-to-operate equipment (printing presses, photocopiers, cutting lathes, machine presses) could do. This is no longer the case. Anyone can copy. A scanner and a printer make a computer into a decent photocopier. Add OCR and email, you can do MAJOR distribution. A CDR drive, you can copy audio CDs and CD-ROMs for about $2 a shot. DVD-RAM? Oh, boy, can you copy some shit -- 5.2 GB for $25. And with the web, you can advertise almost completely anonymously for next to nothing. You can put a full digital music studio on your desk for under $2000, if you work primarily with samples, and then you can churn out CDs by the score. You can sell them over the net at fully 650% profit ($2 for a CDR, $15 consumer cost). Most record executives would just cream their jeans at the prospect of that sort of profit. And even worse: the PUBLIC decides what to buy. The radio and TV and the newspaper aren't touting that band, but if the band is GOOD, then word of mouth alone will make them successful. This takes a LOT of power away from the industry. They're very upset about it, because (by commutativity) power is money. The world has changed. Shouldn't copyright change with it? >It was once said by a man who couldn't quit, >"Dopeman, please can I have another hit?" The dopeman said, "Cluck, I don't give a shit, if your girl kneel down... and suck my dick." Ice Cube fucking rocks. ;) | Caliban Tiresias Darklock caliban@darklock.com | Darklock Communications http://www.darklock.com/ | U L T I M A T E U N I V E R S E I S N O T D E A D | 774577496C6C6E457645727355626D4974H -=CABAL::3146=- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:51:18 -0500 From: Emmanuel Goldstein Subject: [mitnick] washington post update someone at the washington post has been contacting me over the past few weeks about doing an online debate. the first time i replied was the day of the story they printed saying kevin was being tried for credit card theft. i told them at the time that this was greatly troubling and would affect my willingness to participate. today i got a reply: On Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 08:19:01AM -0500, J Weis wrote: > Emmanuel, Is there anyone that you would like to publicly debate in a live > discussion on our site. That is, anyone you would like to debate that you > think may agree to participate? Also, are their any dates (Mitnick related) > in the near future that would make this discussion timely? J my reply to that follows: i'm afraid the only people i would want to debate in a forum hosted by the washington post would be members of the washington post staff who can explain why numerous requests to correct factually inaccurate and libelous statements about kevin mitnick have gone unanswered. somehow, i doubt they will agree to do this which speaks volumes on the integrity of the post. the only really significant date to mark would be the four year anniversary, coming up in february. there are all kinds of other dates archive on the www.kevinmitnick.com site. emmanuel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:57:56 -0500 From: Emmanuel Goldstein Subject: Re: [mitnick] Kevin's still waiting to review evidence On Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 10:39:27AM -0800, Support Services wrote: > > The reason Kevin hasn't gotten to examine any of the evidence > that was GIVEN TO HIS ATTORNEY is because his attorney doesn't > have the time or inclination to MAKE IT AVAILABLE TO KEVIN. unfortunately this appears to be true. one of the expert witnesses was willing to start participating in early december, immediately after the hearings. i believe he was told by kevin's attorney to wait until after the holidays. i think the expression is "fucked eight ways from sunday." emmanuel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:48:21 EST From: mailinglist99@juno.com (Bob L Fraple) Subject: [mitnick] trial The government has put many obstacles in KDM's path, more so than any criminal I know of. If he were to appeal the judge's decision, do you believe they would grant a new trial. I'm obviously not "educated" in law, so please elaborate on this, and tell this list if Kevin actually has a chance of getting a new trial if convicted.. Of course I'm remaining hopeful that he will be freed. When a twisted government can acquit someone like O.J., with all that evidence they had against him.. There is always a chance for Kevin.. - -tmwnn ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:25:12 -0800 (PST) From: Lew Payne Subject: Re: [mitnick] [followers; hackers] misc.. On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:13:28 -0800 (PST), rOTTEN wrote: > > You can xerox books, why not software? > THey don't have copy protection on literature. 1. I have xerox'd software before. A color Xerox of the original CD or box design makes a great CD label. 2. Literature *does* have copy protection. Illiteracy. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:34:31 EST From: Bobwil623@aol.com Subject: [mitnick] ivey james lay: $28 million (actual loss) = 38 months (sentence) just sent this off to kerry -- if you're in a dialogue with this fellow from the washington post, you may want to point to this fact about ivey james lay: > ...note that if ivey james lay was sentenced to > three years and two months (38 months) as of the > date of that posting (3/28/95; see below), he's been out of > prison for seven months as of 12/28/98... > > kind of puts it in perspective.... > Subject: "liven up the front page"? > Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:54:02 -0500 > To: Kerry Zero > > > if you want a "nugget" to liven up the front page, here it is...found at > > > > Computer Crackers Sentenced (Edupage 28 Mar > > 1995) > > > > Edupage > > Tue, 28 Mar 1995 19:56:58 -0500 > > > > Two computer crackers have been sentenced to > > federal prison for their roles in defrauding > > long-distance carriers of more than $28 million. > > The two were part of a ring that stole credit > > card numbers from MCI, where one was an > > employee. Ivey James Lay, who worked at MCI, was > > sentenced to three years and two months, and his > > accomplice, Frank Stanton, received a one-year > > prison term. (St. Petersburg Times 3/28/95 > > E6) > > > here's how charles platt described it in his review of takedown... > > > In October, 1994, for instance, Ivey James Lay, > > a switch engineer for MCI in Charlotte, North > > Carolina, was charged with stealing more than > > 100,000 telephone calling-card numbers and > > disposing of them through a network of dealers > > in Los Angeles, Chicago, Spain, and Germany > > (according to the Secret Service). Allegedly the > > numbers were used to make $50 million in calls- > > -the largest theft of telephone service ever > > blamed on one person. Yet the story was > > summarized briefly in only a few newspapers. > > _Time_ magazine didn't even bother to mention > > it. Lay certainly didn't get _his_ picture on > > the front page of the _New York Times._ So why > > was Mitnick singled out for this honor? answer: cause markoff was miffed and could smell the gold if he set kevin up, that's why. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:06:02 PST From: "kenneth sooyna" Subject: Re: [mitnick] Re: Bylaws. (touched up a bit) - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 instead of naming specific counties how about instead put in somesort of population thing. like they get two groups if the have x number of people in the county and three groups if they have y number of people in the county. and if a county has more than one group then the group that has the most people in its territory it becomes the 'head' group of the sub-groups. those are just my thoughts, i'm sure there are better ways to do it. the thinker - - - http://thinker.findhere.com http://listen.to/duz icq:19173887 >From: che guevara > >then i'll try to make an amendment permitting more than one Los Angeles >chapter...any other counties like this? > >Support Services wrote: >> >> On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 06:33:57 -0400, che guevara wrote: >> > >> > los angeles is not a 100-mile long county. >> > don't u have a subway system? >> >> You're right... Los Angeles County is not 100 miles long, >> it's more like 120 miles long. Sorry for the inaccuracy. >> Santa Barbara to Long Beach. >> >> Yes, we have a subway system. That doesn't mean it goes >> >from one end of Los Angeles to the other... at least not >> with many hours worth of transfers from line to line. >> >> --- >> Do you Yahoo? So what. > >-- >:che guevara:: >::: >::: >::: >"I never think of the future - it comes soon enough." > -albert einstein - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBNnsKAuQ86hTv+ShHEQIENQCeLSlwBzDyoWX/+QxZ85tV/wgdSM0An2o4 igAXG3uUXQAw4rH3JHlAPnTR =Ovsp - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of mitnick-digest V1 #223 *****************************