- - - - - - - - - Subject: Distortions From: terminus (Len Rose) Message-ID: <98LHoB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 17:44:07 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system I found out the hard way that lies and distortions often are viewed as the absolute truth , merely because their sources were the Government, and major publications. It is a shame, but what people think of you is based on that alone. I guess it's just another vivid example that people who own the media get to define the "truth" .. I can only assume that it will always be this way until more and more of our society gets their information from a truly electronic media system in which we all have a chance to get the real facts distributed by doing so ourselves without fear of censorship, or reprisal. Mark is facing a very difficult time. He is basically against the wall, and we must all try to help him get through this. I don't care whether he is guilty or not. The real fear is that he will get destroyed in the sentencing process. Sometimes I wonder just who really runs the government. Oh well, I am no longer able to speak freely. Perhaps someone who has civil rights can carry on this discussion... Len - - - - - - - - - Subject: Hey Len! From: digital (Patrick K. Kroupa) Message-ID: <9J0HoB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 02:08:07 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Didn't they give those back to you? You must have forgot to pick up your civil rights on the way out the door in your rush to get back to freedom! (Insert an emoticon) Patrick - - - - - - - - - Subject: The "Hacker's Ethic". It is dead.. From: ahmed (Ahmed Kufuti) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 03:22:40 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Someone earlier brought up a good point regarding the state of technology and how affordable it is, and perhaps I would like to expand on it with the views of my own. People like Emmanuel Goldstien and Phiber Optik and other hackers have always stated that it is "okay to break into other peoples computers if you don't do any damage", "it's okay to explore, and learn, etc..etc..". The "hacker ethic" of the 1970's and 1980's, as stated above made sense then because really powerful computers (Unix and VAX and such) were far too expensive for the average individual to afford, so it was only "right" for hackers to break in to learn how to use such machines. I tend to agree with the hacker ethic on this. But does this make any sense in 1992? I do think not. Time changes many things, you see. If you want to learn Unix, you can build a Unix system for around $800. This would basically be a 386 with 2 or 4 megabytes RAM, a 40-80 MB hard disk, and something like Linux, Coherent or 386BSD. And such a system would be more powerful than the 3B2 and VAX 11/750 machines that people hacked into in the 70's & 80's. Plus you would have super user access and everything would be legal and no worries. So does it really make any sense at all to keep the hacker ethic alive when such powerful hardware has become so cheap? It sounds really silly to say that it's okay to hack into some else's Unix machine today because you want to learn how to use Unix. It is too silly.. It sounds almost hypocritical and people will only think that the only reason for breaking into another machine is so you can read their private data files, and not so you can learn shell programming or whatever. I also think that another reason why hacker break into machines, which is never stated publically, is the "rush" or excitement that they feel from the danger of breaking the law. People I have spoken to say this rush can be quite addictive, almost like the heroin. Mr. Goldstien, I think it is time for you to get new slogans because repeating the "hacker ethic" in this time of cheap access to powerful technology makes you look quite foolish from my point of view, and from the point of view of others. Stop saying we are only "exploring" or "learning" by hacking when this is not the case in the 1990's. You can pick up books on Unix and a copy of Coherent for $99 and accomplish exactly the same thing without breaking any laws. respectfully, ahmed - - - - - - - - - Subject: ethics From: phiber (Phiber Optik) Message-ID: <200JoB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 04:18:48 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system You going to give me the $800 to buy a unix box? Didn't think so. Moot point, because that isn't the issue. To explore and learn new things is. If you don't like that, fine. You can complain. But complaining isn't going to accomplish much of anything, except maybe wasting a lot of time. Humankind hasn't prospered by sitting on its behind, but by exploring new things and ideas. To stretch the limits of technology to improve our lives, and the world. The question is, do you want to be known as one of the COMPLAINERS, or one of the DO-ERS? In order to improve the technology of the world around you, you must first understand it. We all must. It's our moral obligation as human beings. The rewards of improving our lives and the lives of our fellow man/woman are much too great to yield to persecution and blatant ignorance. THAT is the Hacker Ethic. Not some self-righteous, over-simplistic clap-trap. Here is truth. And if you can't see the truth, then there is no hope for you. - - - - - - - - - Subject: another thing... From: phiber (Phiber Optik) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 18:20:27 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system On a more personal level, have any of you ever had a gun pointed at your head? How about two guns, in the bed you sleep in, in your own home, by two complete strangers, accompanied by 10 others? No, you say? Well, believe me, it does wonders for one's faith in the justice system. - - - - - - - - - Subject: Gunz... From: wtap (Wire Tap!) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 00:15:46 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system I have always found that to be the most inappropriate and insane action by any law agency. I was once at a meeting of the New York Personal Computer Users Group. I believe if memory serves me, Phiber was on the panel, along with Donald Delaney, Katie Hafner, Mike Godwin, and Emmanual Goldstien. After all sorts of hissing and booing by some of the audience (which, mind you was completely uncalled for on account that it began the second Phiber began to answer a question. I think he had said "the reason tha..." when he was interrupted) one hacker in the crowd took a bold step and stood up and asked Mr. Delaney (who is member of the New York State SS or something similar): "How do you justify the use of a shotgun in apprehending a 14 year old 95 pound kid?" Delaney's response was: "I know of the case of which you speak . In the case of , the shotguns were not drawn. Only after the convolutions of the youngster's mother were they drawn in hopes they would calm her down. I do not need to justify what didnt happen." Or something similar. The shotguns were NOT drawn according to Delaney, but WERE drawn according to the busted hacker. In fact, they were drawn on him as he was emerging from the shower, buck naked, dripping wet. I would tend to believe the hacker. Stories of shotuns drawn and Clint Eastwood look alike SS man are commonplace. Something is very wrong. That alone should eliminate all doubt that this doesn't happen. - - - - - - - - - Subject: Actually... From: phiber (Phiber Optik) Message-ID: <2wXPoB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 05:37:24 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system ...just knowing how strange "zod's" parents were, I wouldn't be too sure who to believe. First of all, it's well known that his mom sort of thought that they were the "Manson gang", "coming to kill her and her family". A normal assumption, no? Secondly, judging by the frequency at which "zod" told the truth half the time, I wouldn't be so quick to believe. And lastly, Delaney arrested me in Jan 1991. No guns (certainly not shotguns), and I'm a bit bigger than "zod". Cuffs though, there were cuffs. And don't forget, the idea of shotguns to sustain a 14 year old naked kid sounded just scrumptious to the media. Also, the majority of individuals in my home in December were from the FBI, not the SS (only a couple SS), and if you've ever been at the Marshall's office, it appears that they ARE in it for the glamor and glitz, at least some of them from their suits and slicked hair-cuts (and attitudes). And attitude was no stranger, one December morning... - - - - - - - - - Subject: Felonies? From: emmanuel (Emmanuel Goldstein) Message-ID: <8TPRoB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 04:38:06 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Someone posted a while back that Zod committed some serious felonies while hacking around various systems. I find that very hard to believe unless you buy into the notion that hacking itself is a felony to be dealt with in the same manner as theft or even violent crime. We are currently engaged in a very real war of terminology; the authorities wish to make hacking synonymous with crime. Judging from what a lot of you are posting, they've made a lot of progress. I stand by what I've said in the past: hacking is healthy ansd beneficial. It also happens to be a part of human nature and I don't take kindly to any attempt to manipulate my values, particularly when the threat of force is involved. When you hold up something like credit card fraud and make it analogous to hacking, you're falling right into their trap. Raids and indictments will make all the headlines, but the most important and vulnerable part of this whole thing will always be our values. I think we'd better start doing a better job of defending them. Nobody else will. - - - - - - - - - Subject: bottom line... From: phiber (Phiber Optik) Message-ID: <5iV3oB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Thu, 06 Aug 92 05:14:39 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system This is an argument that will probably go on forever and no one will ever agree on, but I maintain that had it not been for certain ethical and wholly moral activities which were misconstrued and termed "illegal" in the past, I would not possess much of the knowledge I do. People who know me, know that I take great pride in educating people on the subject of "how things work", and I go great lengths in my private studies to make sure the information is technically accurate when I present it. Most often, technical information which may be publically available is simply out of the reach of most people, or the information simply isn't in a form they can understand. I enjoy explaining things, when I feel that the listener is genuinely curious and fascinated by the subject, and does not intend on milking information to use for illicit or destructive purposes. I believe that technological knowledge should be available to anyone who wants to learn about it to use it and build upon it in a positive way, to educate others, and to ultimately improve the world around us by moving onwards and upwards. In an increasingly computerized society, it becomes more and more important to the point of becoming almost mandatory that people should understand the technological world around them. And certainly, if they really STRIVE to know, as so many people do, there should be no barriers. I got back from the "Off the Hook" radio show with Emmanuel Goldstein a few hours ago, and it's clearly evident from the callers that there is a growing concensus who have a genuine curiosity to know and understand. Punishing people's insatiable thirst for knowledge is rather backward, if not blatantly ridiculous. But as long as there exists a will to stamp out an entire subculture, a will fueled by ignorance, hate, and obvious abuses of power by certain law enforcement types and corporate entities, there will always be problems. The bottom line is that more and more, people everywhere want to know how things work. What makes things tick. To UNDERSTAND. And all too often, those who want to show the way get caught up in scandalous persecution. It's the way things are, and we need to do something about it. And people are trying. - - - - - - - - - Subject: HakKing is BAD From: digital (Patrick K. Kroupa) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 06 Aug 92 15:16:34 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system "Is it ethically ok to access computers that don't belong to you?" That's a very un-answerable question since it will vary greatly from one individual to the next. You'd have to define "ethical" first and then make sure that everyone involved adhered to the same interpretation of the word, and then give everyone a BIG COLORFUL BADGE that says "AUTHORIZED" and follow it all up with a firm handshake looking deeply into their eyes and saying "I love you" and . . . umm, where was I, oh yeah.... It is my personal belief that NO ONE has the RIGHT to access any computer, network, device, or place; virtual or physical, that does not belong to them, or where they have not been CLEARLY invited by the owner's or representatives of same. If EVIL SUPER-BAD MEGACORP has 24 Connection Machines accessible via local dialup, and the root password is "abcdef" you still do not have the "right" to access their machines, much less take any sort of action against them. But ya know, there's right and wrong, good and evil, anthracite and puce, and then there's stupidity. While you have the absolute right to take a new Ferrari, leave the keys in the ignition, the window rolled down, and park it in Harlem.... there's this wonderful thing called COMMON SENSE that says, "Gee ya know... that may not be a very good idea!" Computer security is very similar to that. While I know a lot of people who, um... look at things... and very few of them have any sort of harmful intentions, much less interest in the data they gain access to... I also trust their judgement about as much as I trust the average 6th grader's. They don't mean any harm, none-the-less it certainly isn't helpful to me for anyone else to have access to MY PERSONAL JUNK. What I'm finding more and more, is people who have sensitive material on their computer, just aren't hooking them into networks. As an example there's my father, and a lotta his friends. They have contracts with the government and various military agencies, they have a lotta stuff on their machines that is considered "classified" or sensitive. Their solution to security, is purely physical in most cases. They don't know much about Unix, and they don't wanna know, they don't read news, or want to get email from people, they just don't bother to plug their personal machines into the ethernet. The only way to get at its contents is to physically steal the thing. When you're running simulations or something that is extremely processor intensive, then obviously it has to go on other machines, or over networks, but for the most part, what's really "sensitive" is just information that isn't meant to be publicly accessible. What comprises "sensitive" material varies greatly, company X's SUPER NEW ULTRA-SECRET THREE WEEK PLAN, is probably of interest to nobody, except COMPANY Y who is in competition with 'em. All things are relative; right now the attitude is that people find this lack of "security" scary, so they run around in little circles, call up various law enforcement agencies, who in turn grab their guns and kick in doors and make a big fuss over it. When people are scared, they tend to do silly things. People ARE *VERY* afraid right now, of a lot of things in general, and this is one area in which fear can be very effectively channeled and focused on THE BAD GUY, who in most cases is represented as some teenager who is personally responsible for EVERYTHING wrong with their lives in general, and their computer's in particular. None of it bears any relation to reality, but then again, neither does life most of the time. Patrick - - - - - - - - - Subject: |\/|y th0+z From: vortechs (Vor Techs) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 09 Aug 92 04:16:08 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system i believe that there is nothing wrong with maliscious hacking...it would seem that if someone was caught and hadnt actually destroyed or altered anything, and there was no evidence of them turning a buck by doing it that the company would be more greatful than suspicious...after all the Hacker pointed out a security flaw which could be exploited by someone much less nice. I believe that information is power, Ialso believe it should be widely available to anyone who wants it...power to the people. I know of several friends of mine who have illegally( in the laws eyes) gained access to various systems and used it to learn...they were never caught and are now in fact writing software for some of the same places they hacked. System access is not a right, but more of a privelege or ability (depending on how access is gained). I think that those who can successfully make it into a system without permission can teach all of us something, after all they possess knowledge that the majority of the public isnt exposed to Hacking isnt a crime - - - - - - - - - Subject: ? From: phiber (Phiber Optik) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 09 Aug 92 06:13:35 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system That's a rather simple-minded attitude. Of COURSE there's something wrong with malicious hacking! I don't think you're all too clear as to what MALICIOUS means. It means evil. Destructive. Detrimental. If someone REALLY hadn't damaged anything, they're not doing anything MALICIOUS. (And I don't want to see any wise guys saying, "Well, just you BEING there is damaging!" That's nonsense.) In fact, the words 'malicious' and 'hacking' don't even belong in the same sentence. And there's a hell of a lot more to hacking than defeating security. (So you got in... THEN WHAT???) This rather juvenile notion that by entering a system, you're somehow helping the sysadmin is silly. Does he WANT to be helped? Does he even CARE? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe he hates you for being there. In that case, he certainly doesn't want your help. Do you really expect anyone to believe that you enter systems because you intend to HELP them? Come on. That's more of an excuse than anything else. If you're there to LEARN something for yourself, because you have no other way to do so, that's different. Or maybe you're just curious. Or maybe you really are an evil, malicious, destructive person. If you're going to do something, you sure as hell should at least know WHY you're doing it, and not make up some lame excuses. Because if you do something foolish and don't know why, some very angry people are going to end up TELLING you why. And you may not like their point of view, especially if what they think aren't really your own reasons. So make a choice: You can do foolish things and give foolish reasons for doing them, or you can act responsibly and explain your reasons sensibly. It's hard to argue with someone who has common sense on their side, although people tend to do it anyway. Good nite. - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: ? From: terminus (Len Rose) Message-ID: References: Date: Sun, 09 Aug 92 13:45:06 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system phiber (Phiber Optik) writes: > That's a rather simple-minded attitude. Of COURSE there's something wrong > with malicious hacking! I don't think you're all too clear as to what > MALICIOUS means. It means evil. Destructive. Detrimental. If someone > REALLY hadn't damaged anything, they're not doing anything MALICIOUS. > (And I don't want to see any wise guys saying, "Well, just you BEING there > is damaging!" That's nonsense.) In fact, the words 'malicious' and > 'hacking' don't even belong in the same sentence. And there's a hell of a > lot more to hacking than defeating security. (So you got in... THEN WHAT???) > > This rather juvenile notion that by entering a system, you're somehow > helping the sysadmin is silly. Does he WANT to be helped? Does he even CARE > Maybe, maybe not. Maybe he hates you for being there. In that case, he > certainly doesn't want your help. I know from experience most administrators are so busy that they do not have all the time needed to make sure their systems are secure. From what I have seen, on mosat sites, system admin tasks are secondary, the main being software development or network support. Some people I know are working 20 hours a day just to keep even. As someone pointed out earlier, the days of breaking into a system just because you wish to learn are over. You can obtain enough experience on Unix or networks by bringing up your own equipment at home or the office. Hell, I see used Suns going for $900 with hard disks and operating systems.. Or alternately you can obtain bsd 386 and bring something up on an Intel platform. If you are just plain flat broke, you can get accounts on public access systems or a account on a local internet site.. Of course I am speaking to people who already now of all this. Perhaps my words will have some benefit on the new wave of people who are about to see Mindvox for the first time. > Do you really expect anyone to believe > that you enter systems because you intend to HELP them? Come on. That's > more of an excuse than anything else. If you're there to LEARN something > for yourself, because you have no other way to do so, that's different. That excuse went the same way that "When they catch you, they'll hire you" did.. I always despised people who were naieve to believe that. > Or maybe you're just curious. Or maybe you really are an evil, malicious, > destructive person. Curiosity is great. That is what hopefully spurs us all on. BUT .. I maintain that there is no need of doing anything illegal nowdays to satisfy that curiosity.... There are enough friendly admins on the internet to let you have a guest account. Then, with their knowledge and cooperation, sure go ahead, try to locate security problems. You get the same rush as always, just that it's legal then.. They you have helped them,you have done what certain people say they are doing "helping" ,etc,etc. So, what can I say.. it just doesn't wash anymore.. I give away accounts on any system I run because I know I cannot locate every flaw in my security.. I don't have the time. Then, when my friends point something out to me I am usually damned glad. > If you're going to do something, you sure as hell should at least know WHY > you're doing it, and not make up some lame excuses. Because if you do > something foolish and don't know why, some very angry people are going to > end up TELLING you why. And you may not like their point of view, > especially if what they think aren't really your own reasons. Or you may not like their point of view because they are federal and don't even understand the difference between a good act and an evil act. It is so hard to find anyone in law enforcement who does understand the difference. - - - - - - - - - Subject: ... From: phiber (Phiber Optik) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 00:44:13 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system I never cease to be surprised when people smugly state "you don't have to hack into something, why, you can BUY your own unix box for 'x' hundred dollars." I had no idea that unix is all there ever was. There really isn't anything else out there? Just unix??? Wow. Wait, isn't this Earth in the 20th century? Whoops! Silly me! Back into the TARDIS! That's like saying "Columbus didn't have to discover the New World and annoy the natives, he had plenty of land in Europe to play with!" - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: ... From: thug (Murdering Thug) Message-ID: References: Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 01:06:30 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system phiber (Phiber Optik) writes: > > That's like saying "Columbus didn't have to discover the New World and > annoy the natives, he had plenty of land in Europe to play with!" > That's a strange analogy, but let me take a stab at it anyway. You see the natives only had bows and arrows, Columbus had guns. In the case of hackers, if you consider yourself to be an explorer (ie: Columbus), you're going to be dealing with natives (corporations) which are much larger than you, and have the government on their side as well. If Columbus had bows and arrows and the natives had machine guns, then things would have turned out to be different. Now personally, I would love to go exploring and digging through the juicy files of but unfortunately, it's called tresspassing, and unless I have more weapons than they do, I am not going to run in there screaming something Emmanuel-Goldstien-ish like "Information yearns to be free!" only to have my head blown off by a squad of goons with machine guns. Corporations don't have Uzi-carrying goon squads (then again, maybe they do) but they do have lawyers and are in bed with the government (SS,FBI,Justice Dept), so it's basically the same thing. Mark, whether you like it or not, in the real world "Might makes right." The justice system is just a puppet of the corporations. The justice system enforces laws passed by Congress and the President. The Congress is owned by special interest groups (corporations), and the President is owned and payed for by political action committees (corporations). If you ask me who is running this country, I would say IBM, AT&T, GM, and Exxon, and the rest of the Fortune 100. Yeah, I know it sucks, but there is no reason to put yourself up as a sacrificial lamb just to point this out. People much more powerful and influential than you have already tried (ie: Abbie Hoffman) and were destroyed in the process. Thug - - - - - - - - - Subject: Lockpick From: mcmullen (John F. McMullen) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 15:11:52 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system The lockpick would be charged with trespassing and/or breaking & entering and/or bugulary (if he took anything) -- all appropriate charges; he/she would also be held responsible for the amount it cost to fix/replace the picked lock if it were damaged -- once again, appropriate in this case and, one could say, also appropriate in computer-cracking cases. The lockpick would, however, not be held liable for the installation of a multiple-thousand dollar burglar alarm system if the house owner decided that such protection be required to insure that such intrusion not happen again. Such action would be up to the house-owner who would have to decide what prudent action is required to protect her/his property from intrusion or bugulary. This type of liability is, however, charged by the government against alleged or convicted computer intruders -- see the $230,000 restitution responsibility contained in the sentencing of Riggs, Darden & Grant and the $360,000 damages to Southwestern Bell contained in the indictments against Phiber, Corrupt & Outlaw. If this type of liability stands up, the motto of corporate America could turn out to be: "Let a hacker intrude and fix your security holes." -- why bother tightening security? Catch the first guy and make him pay for it. - - - - - - - - - Subject: Luddites and apathy From: cudigest (Jim Thomas) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 16:19:16 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Phiber writes: >thug: I ignore points made by people who accept defeat so easily, without >challenging wrong doing. Sadly, we can't ignore their points. I find those who sit back in apathy and grouse about conditions to be far more dangerous than those who abuse their power. The mass of inertia of the apathetic folk is much more difficult to overcome. They tend to grouse about conditions, gripe about those who try to change them, and murk about in self-pity for their plight. Attacking abuse of power is fairly easy. Mobilizing the coconut throwers is not. Self-styled luddites rarely have any real understanding of what Luddism was or what it entailed. Sad, ain't it? - - - - - - - - - Subject: Explorers From: king (Randy King) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 20:38:17 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system This is sort of a tangent but gets back to the Columbus analogy. Hackers are explorers entering a foreign land just as Columbus was an explorer entering this (then-)foreign land. But, let's say that the Indians had machine guns, anti-matter rays, and localized nuclear weaponry... And lets again say that Columbus was a fungus (poor analogy from a hacker's point of view, but bear with me). The Indians see this fungus growing a bit but they do nothing about it because they figure no big deal. This fungus then eats all their food or eats the Indians or whatever because of their inaction. What am I getting at? I don't know...maybe if the Indians had inspected the fungus closer than they did, they could have realized it was a problem and could have done something to prevent its spread to the point of damage to them (in this case death). System administrators *KNOW* that there are holes in operating systems, ***SPECIFICALLY*** Unix, yet many of them do little to nothing to take care of them. I don't know about you guys, but I got my vaccinations when I was too young to realize what good it was... TK - - - - - - - - - Subject: Hackers From: butler (Tom Butler) Message-ID: <60eePB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 10:54:52 EDT In-Reply-To: <1kmDPB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Most of the hackers I know are quite ethical. Their only quest is for access to resources and information. Occasionally they might cross the line and abuse their privledges, but for the most part they harm noone. When I am in the position to hire computer professionals, I am going to look at "hackers" first and foremost, regardless of what they have done in the way of hacking. If you give someone the responsibility of supporting a system, they can hack all they want while doing something good for their company. The Butler... - - - - - - - - - Subject: The role of Today's Hacker From: lex (Lex Luthor) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 00:28:10 EDT In-Reply-To: <79ZPqB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system I think the role of today's hacker is not to test system security for the owners good, but rather to expose those things that threaten the majority. For example, I do not think TRW would have as easily decided to give out free credit reports and make it easier to correct mistakes if it weren't for hackers helping to bring attention to them through the various breakins and articles (such as those in 2600 not to mention the "popular" media). It may still be illegal for them to prove that people's conversations are not safe from eavesdropping but there is a service to the public that is done in the process. I am not encouraging today's hackers to go out and break the law if it is in the public interest but if they are going to hack let it be for those reasons as opposed to "helping" a system admin to fix their security problems which they probably know about anyways but don't have the funds and/or the time to do anything about. By the way, how many "reporters/journalists" have broken the law to break a big story? Most people don't seem to have a problem with it as long as its for the public good. And don't misunderstand me, as some will probably do anyways, I am just trying to encourage a debate. Just remember every day you wake up you now have less privacy than the previous day. Perhaps hackers should devote more time to bringing attention to "big brother-ish" systems which can threaten everyone, rather than helping rich companies get richer by shoring up their security weaknesses. Or worse yet, by trying to gain personally from their hacking exploits (although few may actually do it, many probably try it). Lex - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: The role of Today's Hacker From: dead (Bruce Fancher) Message-ID: <94PTqB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 03:46:31 EDT In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Lex, you brought up the subject of journalists breaking the law for a story. I don't know if you quite consider Geraldo a journalist, but he and his staff "research" for the trash TV show on Hackers wasn't exactly conducted ethically. I spoke with some of his producers for about an hour on various technical matters and details of the how and why of hacking. And just as I was begining to truly believe they would do a semi-acurate piece, they started in with the tabloid stuff. First they asked me if I could pull Geraldo's credit rating for them so that a hacker could present it to him on the show (shocking!). They then asked me if I or someone I knew could hack into the secret Deptartment of Education computer which held a record of Jesse Jackson's unpaid student loans. They've got great imaginations but criminal minds. It's unbelievable that a major TV personality would commit a crime in the course of portraying innocent parties as criminals. Ah well... The show got 16 share anyway so what does it matter? Bruce Fancher -+- dead@phantom.com - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Guns at your head ... From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync) Message-ID: <9RXXRB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 20:56:07 EDT In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system > Hate to say it, or not, come to think of it I don't hate to say it... I > just don't give a shit, at all. There isn't anything in this country that > I've found worth following. Then, pardon my French, but the fuck are you here? If everything is so bad and you're so apathetic, go the hell somewhere else. It's probably because I'm younger (born in the sixties) that I'm not completely cynical that I still care about my country. I imagined the reason we all gather here to post messages is that we have interest in what goes on in our lives, and those things that might change them for the better or worse should be discussed, or at least taken notice of. The tone of this is meant to be inquisitive and forceful, but not too insulting. Just thought I'd set that straight. (You'll know when I'm rattling sabres ..) Trying to feed those hungry for thought, Chrome Sync - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Guns at your head ... From: doug (Douglas Luce) Message-ID: <804XRB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> References: <9RXXRB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 23:16:30 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system chrmsync (Chrome Sync) writes: > > Hate to say it, or not, come to think of it I don't hate to say it... I > > just don't give a shit, at all. There isn't anything in this country that > > I've found worth following. > > Then, pardon my French, but the fuck are you here? If everything is so bad > and you're so apathetic, go the hell somewhere else. Got a better place? Moving is a hassle. - - - - - - - - - Subject: Hacking Life From: king (Randy King) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 21:36:46 EDT In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system While I think Universe is a TOTAL flake 8-), I think that there's something to what he has to say... I couldn't hack my way into a Unix box much less out of one, but I think hacking involves an understanding of the grand scheme of things. I try to do this with everything I get involved in in life, or at least to the point where it seems to be leading to an end. Like with the nets, I like to know where all of the net resources are or at least know that I have a place that I can put my finger on to find out. I like to know all of the little interesting utilities like whois and nslookup, etc. At work, I like to know the reason I'm doing what I'm doing, what happens after I do it, and why. Dealing with people, I like to know why they react one way to something I say or another because of a tone in my voice. Maybe I'm a flake too... TK - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Hacking Life From: redeye (Sigmund Obispo) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 18 Oct 92 07:26:14 EDT In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system You're a flake Randy. I learned alot about the 'grand scheme of things' and found its amazing how much you can accomplish if you put your mind to it. Flexibility, adaptation and vision are all traits of success, be it hacking or elsewhere. RE - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Hacking Life From: ozone (Al Macey) Message-ID: <40ywsB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 92 19:04:26 EDT In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system The whole attitude and curiosity that surrounds hacking is really the result of an already inherent mentality, I believe. Hackers are by nature curious people, who crave to know how things work. The hackers that I know (and this is admission that I am no hacker...just a wannabe) are the kind of people that need to understand everything around them. At the same time, because they generally succeed in knowing how most things around them work, they develop (sometimes well deserved) egos. The mindset that prevails amongst hackers is not something that develop after they start. However, there is a difference that is hard to put a finger on. There are many "UNix Wizards" and high level programmers out there with the same curiosity and craving for knowledge that hackers have. Yet many of them don't spend any time at all attempting to gain illegal access to various machines. Hackers tend to have a daring attitude, I think, and their daring attitude is also a part of their ego. I'm not busting on hackers as egomaniacs, by the way. LIke a good athlete, if you can walk the walk, then by all means talk the talk. Ozone - Surreal McCoy - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Hacking Life From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Oct 92 00:43:57 EDT In-Reply-To: <40ywsB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Out of all the hackers and crackers I know, I don't know any who don't take their egos with them all over the place when they are around in cyberspace, generally act like dicks. Most of the reason why they are different from the Unix Expert who doesn't break the law, is because the Unix Expert has a life, however small it is, in the real world. The hacker is usually a total Melvin and his life is his identity in cyberspace. $%$%$%$%$%$%$% ($) Ali Baba ($) %$%$%$%$%$%$%$ - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Hacking Life From: lgas (Laughing Gas) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Oct 92 17:28:36 EDT In-Reply-To: <7ww6sB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system first of all, hi tox, hi tmh. Anyway... Maybe you guys should try to describe who you are talking about when you say "hackers". From my experience in cyberspace, most everyone who is a sysadmin (a good one), a programmer, or whathaveyou, is a hazcker in some way or another. Mostof the people who hang around in #hack and so on are generally school kids or people who have just graduated and gotten their diplomas, and don't know what to do, and don't have any goal in their hacking, and so one. There should be a distinction made between the malevolent hacker and the benign hacker, as well as the deviant hacker, the social hacker, the computer freak, and the legit hacker. Most of the people who I've talked to who ppear to be good hackers do not hang out on irc, bbses, or the nets at all. Alot of people I know who don't go around bragging about things or showing off their egos are much better hackers than the best from #Hack. Oh well, my terminal is really slowing down, so I'm going to cut this short.. but you guys get the idea. Laughing Gas - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Blah From: paulk (Paul Kerrios) Message-ID: <1cqDTB6w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> References: Date: Wed, 28 Oct 92 19:10:59 EST Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system terminus (Len Rose) writes: > > Blah , blah, blah.. That was simply fascinating! Thanks for sharing. //=======================================\\ Paul Kerrios /=/ Society has made me what I am today. \=\ \=\ Ok so maybe I just watch too much TV! /=/ \\=======paulk@mindvox.phantom.com=======// - - - - - - - - - Subject: Book Signing From: falconer (Steve Copold) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 31 Oct 92 13:12:46 EST Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Thursday night, the 29th, the Austin chapter of the EFF hosted a book signing and speaking opportunity for Bruce Sterling on the UT Austin campus. The room used for the event has a capacity of 135 and there was standing room only...A very good turnout indeed! The attendees were a mixed bag of university staff and faculty, students, attorneys, cops, and testosterone fueled hacker wannabes. Bruces' talk was very entertaining and even Larry Coutorie (law enforcement type) was laughing pretty hard through most of it. During the Q & A session, I asked Bruce if he thought MindVOX (which he affectionately refers to as "Hacker Hell") was providing a useful platform for all the denizens of cyberspace to air their opinions and, while hosing down the opposition, also enlighten them as to why things often work the way they do? He immediately laughed out loud for a few seconds and then proceeded to give Pat Kroupa a glowing plug as the ultimate "80's style hacker d00d." He also pointed out that, "Yes it's (VOX) providing a forum for discussion, but that the usual amount of cannabalism among hackers is still present." He then quickly added that he believes that to be the norm and that it is simply (as he also so eloquently points out in Hacker Crackdown) part of the way in which the power structure in cyberspace is sorted out. All in all a very good evening...I dished out $25.00 for an autographed copy of the book, but it must be noted that all of the profits for the evening were being donated to the EFF Austin chapter. Falconer - - - - - - - - - Subject: Hacking for Profit? From: forbes (Forbes Reporter) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 13:17:34 EST Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Hacking for Profit? Has anyone ever offered to pay you (or a friend) to get into a certain system and alter, destroy or retrieve information? Can you earn money hacking credit card numbers, access codes or other information? Do you know where to sell it? Then I'd like to hear from you. I'm doing research for a magazine article. We don't need you name. But I do want to hear your story. Please contact me. Forbes@mindvox.phantom.com. - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Hacking for Profit? From: falconer (Steve Copold) Message-ID: References: Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 14:25:17 EST Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system forbes (Forbes Reporter) writes: > Hacking for Profit? Has anyone ever offered to pay you (or a friend) to get > into a certain system and alter, destroy or retrieve information? Can you > earn money hacking credit card numbers, access codes or other information? Do > you know where to sell it? Then I'd like to hear from you. I'm doing > research for a magazine article. We don't need you name. But I do want > to hear your story. Please contact me. Forbes@mindvox.phantom.com. No offense Senor Forbes Reporter, but give me a break here! Is this some form of "lameness" quiz?...I mean can you spell G-E-R-A-L-D-O? Falconer - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Crackdown progress? From: sn (SN/DPAK) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 18:25:22 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system It's bad when the government starts to have personal vendettas. It cheapens the system of justice when they start to go more for the person than for the ALLEGED crime. And that's what it is, you know... A Vendetta. -/- Supernigger -/- DPAK -/- - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: CellularModem From: surfer (Hewlett Cray) Message-ID: References: <6ZLswB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Sun, 03 Jan 93 12:02:49 EST Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system chrmsync (Chrome Sync) writes: > Say, Inhuman, wasn't there a phreak (&tc.) 'publication' called > BOOTLEG[GER] ?? Bootleg put out Bootlegger in the early-mid 80's. There was also Countlegger, The Hacker Magazine and one or two other Apple 5.25" disk format mags out there for a few years. To my recollection a few of the LOD members on here including Digital, Lex, Erikb and some others, all had material in one or more of them, without their permission, which was one of the things that inspired the formation of LOD Tech Journals, in the first place (people ripping off material that was written by others and then selling it. Something Bootleg is famous for and apparently about to do again with his CD-ROM). Bootleg had a very shaky rep for a long time, he was originally some biker dude who would be in his late 40's or early 50's by now, who was one of the petty-criminal profiteering class. Surf's Up |echosurfer::1:2:surfer:/:/bin/sh\>\>/etc/passwd - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: ! From: netw1z (Ama ama) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 02 Feb 93 08:36:32 EST In-Reply-To: <3JJcyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system All these folks talking about hacking and yet.. not a hacker among you.. If i read another posst from you leeches , killer cracker using card abuse, code dialing, board calling , .edusite inet account crackers post anpother annoying thing i will laugh again becase you are laughing stock.. then.. there was the outsiders looking in who think they know.. thisisnt a snide remark but sudeenly bruce sterling wrote a book andnow thinks he is (wellnot thinks.. everyone else thinks this too) he is an expert on "hacking" and the "underground" no true practionerof this clandestine art has really come forward if they do.. it usually is some old timer who is completely out of touch with what is ot t out thier now.. Rhetoric!#@ tons of cool thingshave happened and can stillhappen.. but only by the few.. the few .. never have so many been so terrorized by so few.. sure.. people say hacking is dead.. the balance disrupted de due to the busts of the hackers responsible for the "trickle-down theory" (which isbasically what the PUBLIC underground works on fortythe casual hackers) and technology advances which allowfor clear digital monitoring and call tracing.. but the truth is there will always be someone there to answer the challangee.. but it certainly isnt ANY of you!#@ - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: ! From: toxic (Toxic Avenger) Message-ID: References: <4ygeyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 93 17:39:24 EST Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system netw1z (Ama ama) writes: > bleh.. they dont know how to do anythingmajor.. they laymen... often > referred to as lamers.. 'Tis always the ego that makes a man do stupid things and lose. believe what you want about me, and the others you were refering to, and I will remain a lamer in your eyes. But if you remove your head from your ass and use those eyes, you will see that the ones mentioned tend to post interesting, informed posts, and not boast about accomplishments, be they made, dreamed op or pretend. Especially when those boasts become obnoxious 'Im better than everyone in the world' rants. Im sick of hackers trying to prove themselves by being better than the next guy. the only person you are impressing is the person who is ignorant to the ways of hacking. It doesn't mean two shits to anyone worth impressing. -Tox - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: ! From: netw1z (Ama ama) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 04 Feb 93 09:16:48 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Your right.. i actually am tooooocool for that.. bleh i do more in a day then ]-- than you'll ever see in a lifetime... i know it''s hard for you to understand.. but you'll just have to belive me on thisone.. i've seen t stuff thatwouldmake you shit green.. and cry.. I've seen stuff that would make you run out in the street and yell "The Hypcrosiy.. the h7umanity of it all.." and I have seen things that would make you feel INVINCIBLE against the world infusoing you with awe and a sense of power... the sheer magnitude of it all g would come to be my downfall... it was tr00ly an amazing thing.. and yet still the saga could continue.. f fou fortunately.. none of you will have to make the descion i had to make.. it has permanently changed me not really for the better.. and yet.. i wouldnt go back to ignorance for anything in the world... - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: ! From: netw1z (Ama ama) Message-ID: <65agyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 93 09:23:04 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system i have to address simon moon's silly comment... program something interesting? i have done that plenty of times.. whats my motivation to share it with you? i na have figured out a way to have acdcess to almostall information stored on computers... whats my motivation have .. after years to developmy techniques? motivation to share with you or anyone else fo that matter? so yo u can inform the authorities? so you can $CASH$ in on someone else hard work.. illegallyi might add? Or just take a easy ride to things not meant for you to see or do? Or just put you hands on it? (as a wise man once said.. too many cooks sppooil the soup) all you grubby hands on it? I think not.. I dont think i am capabale of judging who should know what.. so instead.. i just sit on it and thr inaction i just wait and see what happens.. you go out and work hard and find ot out things for yourself.. you silly little man and as for changing the policies of the government? blehh./. i f voted for clinton.. perot owns EdS.. orn used to anyways... wheww they pu...bleh.. chaing policies.. how do you change policies wh on something that is fundamentally wrong in the terms of a capatilist society whose rules demand a certain level of privacy for it's citizens? silly little man.. - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: ! From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 04 Feb 93 11:47:55 EST In-Reply-To: <65agyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system ... I am beyond their timid, lying morality ... - Cpt. Willard _Apocalypse Now_ Fnord! - Guess who ... [ Cyber-Renaissance Man ] || || || Chrome Sync || || || [ in the material world ] - - - - - - - - - Subject: Hacking secrets of MOD revealed! From: asyd (Dave Machin) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 04 Feb 93 18:04:45 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system "... phiber, how do we break into switches so we can can annoy people and act like 6 year olds" next lesson: puckering up when you kiss ass! I for one never cared that much for either LOD or MOD, whatever lod used to be like all of them look like they call here, none of them have even bothered to respond. The way you're acting only makes everything erikb ever said look that much more like the truth. Whatever erikb did, I haven't seen anybody act like netw1z who has made it past 6th grade. I'm starting ot think that everything said about MOD in the media isn't far from the truth, netw1z is convincing me more with every post. "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" ---- (For the great Syd Barrett) - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Hacking secrets of MOD revealed! From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo) Message-ID: <767gyB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> References: Date: Thu, 04 Feb 93 20:54:53 EST Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system asyd (Dave Machin) writes: > > "... phiber, how do we break into switches so we can can annoy people and > act like 6 year olds" Shit.... with friends like these who needs enemies :) > I for one never cared that much for either LOD or MOD, whatever lod used > to be like all of them look like they call here, none of them have even > bothered to respond. Netw1z is doing what he always does in IRC, baits people and tries to get them angry so MOD can have another elite war with somebody. Except Netw1z is usually funny and arguing with people who claim to be top level elite hackers, here he's being rude to people who don't make any of those claims or don't care. Mostly I think he's trying to get Bloodaxe to say something stupid and respond to him. Either way if he really is netw1z then he's going to jail soon unless he's one of the only 3 who didn't plead guilty already. That's enough to make anyone be in a bad mood. $%$%$%$%$%$%$% ($) Ali Baba ($) %$%$%$%$%$%$%$ - - - - - - - - - Subject: ! From: netw1z (Ama ama) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 04 Feb 93 21:18:23 EST Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system I am a whining egotistical snot.. but i happen to know alot...i wish i could tell everything but life lives are at stake.. ali baba is very perceptive... moreso then alot of tunnelvision text file reading LOD worshipping blind little sheep who cant think for themselves and will never be on a DmS-100!#@ nEtw1z!#@ - - - - - - - - - Subject: ! From: netw1z (Ama ama) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 05 Feb 93 07:41:23 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system 1) to delafe.. iwould justlike to say that yes.. it was worth it.. it would be worth it a thousand times over.. you couldnt possible understand with all your minor 2-bit hacks and trw /inet/cbi account trading.. what is really out there... rehahshing old OUTDATAD.(outdateed) quotes and quips and wives tales chrome sync does not a renaissance man make.. ozone obviously was one of the grunts and has no ideza what anyone is talking about.. ab and to lumop LOD and MOD in the same categorie.. well that simply is impossible... but then again.. no one here seemsto know exactly what mod is.. and then yet still again.. it probably isnt all thta important .. it really is quite silly actually.. but that doesnt change the fact.. that i av have seen more than any of you second rate hackers.. all you second rate journalist trying to make a quick buck off our backs all dont really get the point yet either.. when the truth comes out..you will all be smacked dumbfoundded... thats when the second hacker revolution will start... fueled from the death of a martry.. a mighty phoneix wi which. well..kinda con trolled a nation.. netw1z!#@ - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: ! From: netw1z (Ama ama) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 05 Feb 93 14:22:58 EST In-Reply-To: <1k6HyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system That cyberpunk gibberish? save that shit of timothy leary and william giboson and the well. thats the new "nerdspeak" - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: !! Keywords: netwh1z From: chemist (The Chemist) Message-ID: References: <5P5kyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 93 02:15:23 EST Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system netw1z (Ama ama) writes: > Pumpmpcon.. a buunch of nerdy looser posers getting together and getting > drunk and listening to thier heavy metal musak and techno.. Like MOD you mean? > how f'ing dry.... i am sure he can afford another portable.. > oh my.. hwere will he store his VMb lists and phracks now? > bleh > > talk of guns? what a waste of time..does my presence and words affect you > that much? that pleases me.. Of course it does, why else take so much effort to be annoying. > i could crush you with a thought and hurt you and feel nothing.. Be sure to mention that to the court appointed psychiatrist, I'm sure they'll take off at least a year of your sentence. -tC - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Hacking secrets of MOD revealed! From: marauder (The Marauder) Message-ID: References: Date: Sun, 07 Feb 93 17:03:32 EST Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system > I for one never cared that much for either LOD or MOD, whatever lod used > to be like all of them look like they call here, none of them have even > bothered to respond. > Hahaha.. Why bother responding at all? netwiz/corrupt seems fully able to respond for himself, besides he's amusing.. -marauder - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: !! Keywords: netwh1z From: toxic (Toxic Avenger) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 07 Feb 93 17:08:17 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Phiber... Well he was at least as arrogant as netw1z, but at least he had a reason to be. He did know his shit (and presumably still does) and furthermore, Mark made sense when he posted (or talked for that matter.) and he doesn't piss me off. N1twhit on the other hand is different. I havent heard one thing out of his keyboard that I could believe, and every last post irritates me. A .kill file would be helpful. Seeing that I haven't met him face to face I cant talk about how he 'really is' but at least behind that alias, I deem him to be a fop. No... netwiz, redeem yourself. Post something believeable (and none of this 'I go more places everyday than you will ever go') and post it coherently, and Ill send you a picture of me inside a local PAC*BELL site with my (real, not virtual) fingers on the switching system. -T - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: !! Keywords: netwh1z From: chemist (The Chemist) Message-ID: References: Date: Sun, 07 Feb 93 18:18:45 EST Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system chrmsync (Chrome Sync) writes: > If I weren't such an advocate of free speech ... > > (tho', actually, this is a private forum, so such an arrogant existance > could be expunged). > > Phiber once spoke of people like wh1z. It wasn't very kind. When Phiber speaks about anything it isn't very kind :) The funny thing is MOD runs around making so much noise yet whenever I've exchanged any words with Phiber in IRC his own comments were there is no MOD, MOD was a bunch of morons except for him and Scorpion. And reading the discussions that went on about MOD when they were first arrainged the only reason all of them are always in trouble is because idiots who are functionally illiterate and act like their whole education came from a comic book (that's netw1z or should I say Corrupt-John) couldn't handle not being pests and bothering Bloodaxe. In a lot of ways I'm starting to see the governments point of view, even if Phiber never did anything illegal like he always says, he set off all these other morons who would have been mugging little old ladies or selling crack or something instead of getting arrested for selling credit cards and breaking into switches. Without him none of MOD would know how to do anything, even phiber agreed with that. Before this I used to think that there were two sides to every story and some of what happened was Erik Bloodaxe's fault but I'm starting to see that probably it wasn't. Wouldn't it be funny if someone mailed all these messages Corrupt has posted to the prosecuter? :) -tC - - - - - - - - - Subject: John. Keywords: netwh1z From: erikb (Chris Goggans) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 08 Feb 93 09:04:42 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system John: Is it really me you have been trying to coax out of the woodwork to spar with? Could everyone truly be right about your intentions? I sincerely hope not. For even in the deluded grey matter you call a brain, you could not want to continue this thread. Or could you? All of the nonsense surrounding your case and that of your compadres should remain old news. Nothing you did was overtly spectacular, despite your self-rightous indignations. Everything you in MOD accomplished was old hat. All had been done before, and all will happen again in the future. Why continue the risk of putting your arm out of its socket patting yourself on the back? It was all no big deal. You guys are good hackers, we are good hackers. Perhaps most of what you and your friends have seen, and indeed, what I and my friends have seen would be shocking to the layperson. (Although I fully expect a response from you to the tune of "well, we were 3l33t but U sukked!") You all had the knowledge to further yourselves in all aspects of your lives, yet you chose to attempt profit at the expense of others. What outcome could you expect? And to continue the harassment even after Mark, Jason & Al had all been warned of federal involvement was sheer madness. Perhaps you see yourselves as martyrs. You are sorely deluded. You have perished for no cause save that of lining your pockets and boosting your egos. Such self-serving goals are not the stuff of martyrs, but of petty individuals, desparately trying to prove that they have control over their environment in whatever fashion possible. I do feel sorry for one of you. Mark. Despite our numerous differences, I know that Mark has no place in prison. I really can't imagine Mark trying to profit illegally with his knowledge. Your own admission of such an act shows that whatever sentencing you receive is well deserved. Remember what you said not too terribly long ago: "It's not just winning that counts, but making sure that everyone else loses." Ironic, isn't it. ->ME - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: John. Keywords: netwh1z From: surfer (Hewlett Cray) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 09 Feb 93 10:47:56 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Netw1z is cool. Somebody has got to be the great flaming martyr of the coming revolution, it sure isn't going to be me. Speak the word Netw1z, I'm right behind you, over there, behind the hill, back a ways, getting paid for what I can do and enjoying life. Surf's Up |echosurfer::1:2:surfer:/:/bin/sh\>\>/etc/passwd - - - - - - - - - Subject: Hiya From: grey (Donald Martin) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Feb 93 20:49:35 EST Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Glad to see some old hands still hanging around to talk about ethics. Frankly, I still can't believe this is all so commercial these days (not dayz). Whatever happend to "Loose lips sink ships?" I'm appalled to see the term hacking associated, in any way, with a cyberpunk. I remember when hacking was something we did to gain access to a system so we could learn how things worked, or just learn about systems we didn't have access to otherwise. It's the criminal intent of the cyberpunk that ended the era of the hacker. I realize that this is old hat, but I'm new here and just finished the thread. I'm constraining myself even as I type. The term punk, as I learned it, is either an immature brat or someone who takes it up the ass for free. Any hackers out there? Grey Ghost - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Hiya From: ahawks (Andy Hawks) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Feb 93 17:14:45 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system gr3Y g=|0$+ - i personnaly, mho, found yer post inane and one-sided, and the saddest part was that it was a perpeutation of popmedia. imho, i'm going to marm here but oh well, cyberpunk as associated with hacking is those who believe in the old stand-by: information wants to be free. that's my definition of a "cyberpunk" hacker. they hack for that purpose -- to understand the system, the constructs, of IN/F0RMASHUN. i'm listening to re: evolution, by shamen & mckenna right now. it phits. i can't explain it, but, shit, just because time or newsweek so oops say something doesn't MAKE IT SO. i can't think and my fingers hurt. aargh. donald martin - i rarely say this because it sounds pretentious, but please take lsd. then you might start to get things. get the fact that WORDS CHANGE. please learn memetics and how semantics operates in a hyperreality, hyperculture. infonomics. the foundation is true and the construct stands: freedom of information, open systems, exploration, curiosity. that is marvin minsky, that is the woz, that is also phiber optik, lod, and MOST PEOPLE. you're just getting older and don't want to adapt to the changes we have made. well, bye bye, times change, change is the only constant. i can't think. shit. ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: FSP From: terminus (Len Rose) Message-ID: <4o1VuB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 92 02:44:38 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system You know, I have been getting the wierd feeling that the powers that be are really desperate to regain control of the internet. With the advent of more and more commercial network connections , and less and less dependence on government sponsored resources, they will be hard put to keep track of what's going on.. Perhaps with direct , upgraded intervention by the NSA .. maybe. I don't know.. The Universities are just going to instruct system administrators to nuke any fsp software they find online, and or firewall most machines so that no one can get in or out. Someday they'll license computer users, and access if current trends continue. What a pessimistic point of view. Len - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: FSP From: ian (Ian Bainbridge) Message-ID: References: <7kPwuB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 92 07:43:10 EST Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system falconer (Steve Copold) writes: > terminus (Len Rose) writes: > > ....The Universities are just going to > > instruct system administrators to nuke any fsp software they find online, > > and or firewall most machines so that no one can get in or out. > > Someday they'll license computer users, and access if current trends contin > > Len... > > appears to me that more openness (with better security in the appropriate > areas) is actually becoming the policy. > > > What a pessimistic point of view. > > I think perhaps too much so in this case. > > Steve This too has mirrored by experience. Universities seem anxious to help people interested in network and computers, learn about the topics and provide them with greater access. I have not yet encountered any militant system operators or people who treated me poorly because I showed interest in what they were doing. I don't know what this FSP is but I'm sure it can have other uses than transferring pirated-only software, no? ;_* ian ################# @ #Ian Bainbridge # mindvox. # ############################################### phantom. # I am not responsible for my opinons, I don't know or care! # com ############################################################### - - - - - - - - - Subject: Ethics in Cyberspace From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 05 Jun 93 11:10:35 EDT In-Reply-To: <506s3B5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system I'm thinking lately that if there used to be some kind of code of conduct that hackers followed, I don't see that right now. In the last month some group of people who are having a war with each other over some toolkit that they keep stealing back and forth and dumping out parts of all over the net have destroyed something like 10 systems along the way in trying to get at each other. After all the shit I've gone through because of how awful PSI is I don't care that people messed up their machines and killed parts of their system, but when they do the same thing to eff.org it makes me wonder if some law enforcement people aren't at least half right about what they say is going on. EFF always stood for what I thought were good ideals, now their site has this big banner when you log in saying authorized use only and I don't see why people would do something like destroy an eff system. $%$%$%$%$%$%$% ($) Ali Baba ($) %$%$%$%$%$%$%$ - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Ethics in Cyberspace From: chemist (The Chemist) Message-ID: References: Date: Sat, 05 Jun 93 14:27:40 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system alibaba (Nick Mordanzo) writes: > I'm thinking lately that if there used to be some kind of code of conduct > that hackers followed, I don't see that right now. In the last month some > group of people who are having a war with each other over some toolkit > that they keep stealing back and forth and dumping out parts of all over > the net have destroyed something like 10 systems along the way in trying > to get at each other. After all the shit I've gone through because of how > awful PSI is I don't care that people messed up their machines and killed > parts of their system, but when they do the same thing to eff.org it makes > me wonder if some law enforcement people aren't at least half right about > what they say is going on. EFF always stood for what I thought were good > ideals, now their site has this big banner when you log in saying > authorized use only and I don't see why people would do something like > destroy an eff system. That would be because most people don't care about the hacker ethic, whatever that is supposed to mean right now. When war's happening it doesn't apply anymore. PSI and its roomfull of smoking sparcs can fuck itself anyway they suck. -tC - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Ethics in Cyberspace From: thug (Murdering Thug) Message-ID: <4oyo5B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> References: Date: Sat, 05 Jun 93 17:54:14 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system chemist (The Chemist) writes: > alibaba (Nick Mordanzo) writes: > > > I'm thinking lately that if there used to be some kind of code of conduct > > that hackers followed, I don't see that right now. In the last month some > > group of people who are having a war with each other over some toolkit > > that they keep stealing back and forth and dumping out parts of all over > > the net have destroyed something like 10 systems along the way in trying > > to get at each other. After all the shit I've gone through because of how > > awful PSI is I don't care that people messed up their machines and killed > > parts of their system, but when they do the same thing to eff.org it makes > > me wonder if some law enforcement people aren't at least half right about > > what they say is going on. EFF always stood for what I thought were good > > ideals, now their site has this big banner when you log in saying > > authorized use only and I don't see why people would do something like > > destroy an eff system. > > That would be because most people don't care about the hacker ethic, > whatever that is supposed to mean right now. When war's happening it > doesn't apply anymore. PSI and its roomfull of smoking sparcs can fuck > itself anyway they suck. > > > -tC > Ditto. PSI can go fuck itself. Maybe this will wake them up and they will actually fix their service (while in the process of fixing their security) so that it doesn't suck so badly. The EFF too can go fuck itself, they sold out to _THE MAN_ long ago, and have accepted funds from AT&T, who wants to take over the Internet and put hourly charges on every fucking little packet that crosses their backbone. The only good thing EFF actually does is provide their anonymous ftp site to the net so people can leech Phracks and LOD/TJ's, but then again CPSR does the same thing, and the files are also available in the Mindvox Archives, so EFF's anon ftp service is not as important to the Internet as it was two years ago. Thug - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Ethics in Cyberspace From: simonm (Simon Moon) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 05 Jun 93 18:40:21 EDT In-Reply-To: <4oyo5B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system thug (Murdering Thug) writes: > The EFF too can go fuck itself, they sold out to _THE MAN_ long ago, and > have accepted funds from AT&T, who wants to take over the Internet and put > hourly charges on every fucking little packet that crosses their backbone. > The only good thing EFF actually does is provide their anonymous ftp site > to the net Hey, look, EFF may not be the shining knight some once thought it was, but I, for one, would rather have them lobbying in DC rather than abandon the field althogether in favor of the mediacorps. They're not perfect, but they're a damn sight better than a lot of the alternatives, IMHO. -- Simon - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Ethics in Cyberspace From: toxic (Toxic Avenger) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 08 Jun 93 23:42:01 EDT In-Reply-To: <1kXu5B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system The Hacker's League Lee Felsenstein 18 March 1992 Theory The Hacker's League is modeled loosely after the American Radio Relay League (A.R.R.L.), an organization of technological adventurers of the Edwardian period. In its heyday, the radio amateurs moved from being nuisances to being important contributors to the development of radio technology. In a field which demanded governmental regulation for orderly operation, the A.R.R.L. represented the interests of amateurs in the councils of government and organized ongoing educational activities through which newcomers to the field could learn not only the technology involved, but also the human interactions which connect the technology to the outside world. The most recent triumph of radio amateurs has been the development of packet radio, which has recently been adopted by Motorola as the basis for its "wireless local loop" for wireless telephone operation. Thanks to the amateurs, it was developed and tried out in an open environment outside of commercial pressures which tend toward secrecy and exclusion. In the area of computers and telecommunication, there are several parallels between today's hackers and the radio amateurs of 1915. Hackers are seen by the respectable technological players as nuisances capable of doing great damage and generally without redeeming qualitites. They were indistinguishable from rogue broadcasters who trampled on other signals in their urge to cover the longest distance. In the corridors of power there was a movement toward outlawing them. Nontechnical people did not know quite what to think about this problem and its suggested solution. The A.R.R.L. was more than a lobbying organization, though. It provided a means for the mutual education essential to the growth of any technology, a route of entry open to all comers, and a social scene to accompany the technological forum. Through the A.R.R.L. green kids could encounter grizzled oldtimers who would be unapproachable in their positions the industry. At field days and other events the cameraderie of being explorers overcame the barriers of class and position as well as those engendered by commercial competition. Networking was possible in the amateur environment which forwarded the operation in the commercial and professional environments. The concept of the Hacker's League is similar but different as befits the different nature of the technology. The aim is to provide a situation in which otherwise unqualified entrants to the field can engage in informal learning situations, test their skills as a means of exercising their craft, gain hands-on experience with systems which would be unobtainable otherwise, and participate on both sides of mentoring and tutorial relationships. The Hacker's League would provide an outlet for the creative energies which are otherwise expended making life worse for perceived or imagined enemies through unauthorized entry to systems and other illegal or unethical conduct. Such energies would be turned toward projects which advance the state of the art, and in a way which undermines the arrogance and exclusivity of the corporate managers which hackers find so tempting a target. To the charge that the Hacker's League would become a front for the interests of industry may be raised the defense that by exploiting industry's fear of low-level disorder it would provide an organizing platform for higher-level attack upon the technological underpinnings of the existing structure. Consider the difference between outcomes had hackers in the 1970's been content to organize politically for access to mainframes. There would have been no personal computer industry, and the power relationships would not have undergone the radical changes brought about by the triumph of open architecture. One might well have said then that the amateur computer activity was a distraction from the true task of tugging at the sleeve of power, yet we can all see the effects of that activity. The Hacker's League could be seen as a guild serving to restrict entry to the membership of the technical elite. In fact, the League would be far more open than the current system of university education. It would provide a means of testing to see whether one is suited to the demands of the technology without exacting years of commitment to learning prerequisites. Within the Hacker's League there would be much more mobility among specialties than exists in university curricula, and the doors would be open to underage entrants and those who come later in life after entrance to a university becomes difficult or impossible. Still, the human tendencies which lead toward exclusivity and the formation of cliques will always be with us, and we must bear themin mind as we proceed in conceptualizing and realizing the Hacker's League. The technology in which we work tends to eliminate the need for centralization, and one of the important outcomes of the Leagues's development would be the demonstration of the decentralized mode of organization, as noble an exploration as might be contemplated, int he opinion of many. After all, the primary challenge is not so much in the hardware, or the physical form of the systems of intercommunication and interaction around which society develops. The important work is in developing the social forms of use of this technology which forwards the common good as well as that of the individual. New ways of thinking, as Einstein said, are the urgently needed ingredient for the humanization and survivalof society. The Hacker's League would not only provide a development bed for social innovations involving the use of information technology, but it would empower those innovations through the parallel development of the technology and, most importantly, of the human network through which the technology is made to come alive. Practice The Hacker's League would be membership organization open to nonmembers for certain functions. It would be organized as a nonprofit educational and scientific organization. Its publications would be freely available to all interested readers. The League would hold periodic local events demonstrating technical achievements of members or chapters, and offering places for individuals outside the League to exhibit or to engage in low-level trade, such as swap meets. A newcomer would most probably make first contact at such events, and might decide to attend a local chapter meeting. Meetings of local chapters would be high in information exchange and low in structure. Newcomers would be acknowledged and provided with a brief orientation so that they would not feel put off by displays of technical virtuosity or cliquishness. If the newcomer desired further involvement, there would be a set of course tracks available as suggested paths for establishing, through achievement, one's level of skill. These might be thought of as Scout Merit Badges, although the name would probably not be used. In the early stages of involvement, the newcomer might interact with a designated instructor who is also working to establish skill in teaching and coaching. Later, as the newcomer gains skill and established competence, he or she would be recommended for more individual instruction and consultation from more highly skilled mentors. Such mentoring relationships would be an important feature of the League, both as a means and and end. The League at the local level would acquire maintain obsolescent equipment which would be operated and imporved by the members through development projects proposed from the membership. Telecommunication resource would also be solicited as donations from carriers, on the none-too-subtle suggestion that the availability of such resource in such a context is conducive to the developmentof skilled citizens instead of antisocial attackers. Through this resource the League would maintain its larger structure, which would be a communication- based overlay of networks and ad-hocracies. Through these structures conflicitng positions could be discussed and debated in a functioning participatory democracy. Informed plebiscites would be conducted both as a means of determining the senseof the League on issues of importsnce and as development projects testing the capabilities of information technology under various arrangements of use. The highest structure of orgnization would be at the local level, and the administrators at wider levels might be given titles, such as Janitor, which tend to prevent puffery and self-glorification. Sapiential authority would be fostered within the League as opposed to positional authority. The newcomer would progress from establishing his or her level of skill to a process of exploring the available courses of self-development. It would be possible to propose a specific course different from the recommended courses. The newcomer would then engage in projects which require the improvement in skill level under the supervision or review of competent skilled members. This should be seen as professional development (where the word has no connotation of "earning a livelihood") and since it is a responsibility of all professionals to teach adn transmit their skills, the newcomer would along the way be expected to perform as an instructor and later a supervisor and mentor to future newcomers. Thus, progress in self-development would not be simply a matter of the "neat hacks" one could accomplish, but would require an integration into the society first of hackers, then the broader society. There is no reason why technologists must rely on others to represent their work to the public or the polity. One of the public service functions performed by the members of the Hacker's League (and this performance would be explicitly carried out by the members and not by the "organization") would be consultation on informational security and integrity of communications within everyday society. Members of the League would provide a service of analysis of proposals, investigations of system misuse and pursuit of abusers which would rest on itsown professional foundation rather than serving direct commercial ends which might distort the conclusions of investigations. To use a popular metaphor, members ofthe HAcker's League might be compared to doctors on the Electronic Frontier, with their own loose medical association to keep quackery at bay and serving a public health function. Or perhaps the analogy might be to schoolteachers who also write literature and literary criticism, as well as turningout works of art and organizing criticism of the same. Obviously, this metaphoric space needs work. One can expect to betterone's material condition through participating inthe networks of relationships which would be the Hacker's League, if one has the skill and aptitude to improve one's skills. If not, it would be no shame to cease participation. An important function of the League would be to encourage the incompetent to go elsewhere without opprobium. They may well turn up as administrators within industry, and it is in no ones' interest for there to be hostile relations based upon "loser" status. In fact, the Hacker's League would be a way to do away with the "winner/loser" dichotomy. If you try, you win to some degree, and younger members less secure in themselves need to learn this, at times to a desperate degree. One can take on more thnone can handle, be allowed to fail with support from those more experienced, and not incur actual or emotional costs which would otherwise drive one away from such experimentation. The Hacker's League wouldn't be working without a measurable degree of honestly won failure on the partofits members. What types of projects would be undertaken? Perhaps the development of distributed operating systems suitable for networks of variegated intelligent devices; elegant user front- ends and development environments for intuitive system configuration; pidgin speech (unnatural language) recognition systems; new structures of groupware; posibly neural networks at higher levels. But these are my own conjectures, and what would actually transpire would almost certainly make these guesses look ridiculously quaint and primitive. Let's give it a chance to happen. --End--- Well, lets hear it. -Tox ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Toxic Avenger | Let not the sands of time get in your lunch. Toxic@phantom.com | Cyberhippie, shaman and /|\ the 4 Final words of Ultimate Frisbee: janitor for the soul / | \ 'CATCH THE DAMN THING!' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Ethics in Cyberspace From: chemist (The Chemist) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 09 Jun 93 08:54:25 EDT In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Nice message Tox, had a lot of interesting points to cover and its applicable long past its time. Speaking of real hackers and ethics, John Lee (Corrupt) aka: netw1z online here a few weeks ago, was sentenced to 1 year in jail on Monday I think, or late last week. SLAM DUNK. -tC - - - - - - - - -