[00:00.000 --> 00:10.280]  It tries to talk a little bit about what happened slightly over a week ago at a camp organized by the Ruckus Society.
[00:10.440 --> 00:18.780]  Now, the Ruckus Society, a lot of you won't know them, they are providing trainings in non-violent activist techniques.
[00:19.260 --> 00:21.780]  I don't know what the radio sounds are all about.
[00:21.780 --> 00:31.780]  They provide training in non-violent activism techniques, so they do... I think USA Today, in their wisdom, describe them as basic training for tree-huggers.
[00:33.880 --> 00:40.600]  And what's important is that the Ruckus Society, a week ago, has organized a camp which was all about technology.
[00:40.760 --> 00:55.020]  It was the Tool Tech Action Camp, which was very much about radios, computers, networks, websites, independent media centers, technology, very much about all of these issues.
[00:56.820 --> 01:13.740]  And the reason I went there, traveling from Amsterdam, first there and then here, is that it's the first time that I see the sort of converging movements between activism and the hacking community also happening very much from the other side, which I thought was very important,
[01:13.860 --> 01:15.120]  at least it was very important for me.
[01:16.200 --> 01:26.340]  I got to meet tons of interesting people there, I think we all did, working on interesting projects, doing human rights stuff in South America.
[01:27.460 --> 01:46.580]  And they presented... Partly these people were very, very knowledgeable already, using PGP, using networks, websites, steganography sometimes, high-tech radio dispatch centers with tactical advisory structures, being set up in cities with major demonstrations.
[01:46.880 --> 01:52.420]  I was amazed at the level of technical sophistication in the activist world already happening.
[01:54.200 --> 01:55.700]  Partly there's still a lot of questions.
[01:55.980 --> 02:02.540]  There's a lot of teaching to be done, there's a lot of stuff that these people want to know, which are really hacker topics.
[02:02.940 --> 02:11.940]  Like, isn't there some video recorder that could encrypt what it's recording with a public key, so that even I don't have access to it immediately there on the spot?
[02:12.420 --> 02:14.780]  Isn't there some way we could...
[02:14.780 --> 02:22.840]  And time after time after time, they're asking these really deep hacker questions, which partly are still open subjects in our own community.
[02:23.920 --> 02:27.680]  But from a perspective which is really interesting, because they need them today.
[02:28.540 --> 02:38.320]  We're not talking about people entertaining these thoughts, sort of, sort of, hypothetically, because they've read on site on Crypt that it's a really interesting problem.
[02:38.480 --> 02:38.580]  No.
[02:38.920 --> 02:52.280]  They're entertaining these things because the Nigerian government is killing their people, is killing their informants, or because... So for me, this was really exciting to be with people.
[02:52.280 --> 02:54.500]  I build cryptographic technology.
[02:54.720 --> 02:58.040]  I build stuff that these people will end up using, hopefully.
[02:59.760 --> 03:08.240]  And for me, it was very exciting to be there and to see the people that actually need this stuff, and to see that this community understands their needs.
[03:09.200 --> 03:16.820]  Until, say, a year or two ago, I always felt like a... How would you describe it?
[03:19.520 --> 03:22.280]  Prophesizing some kind of religion to people that didn't want to listen.
[03:23.520 --> 03:26.680]  Saying, you need some kind of operational security.
[03:26.680 --> 03:32.660]  You need to deal with PGP and encrypted email to people that weren't really interested in these topics.
[03:33.080 --> 03:35.000]  And I think there's interesting things going on.
[03:35.280 --> 03:42.900]  I don't know... Is there anybody here that's either with an independent media center, or is from the activist... There's a few people, yeah.
[03:44.340 --> 03:46.360]  considers themselves an activist in some way.
[03:50.240 --> 03:52.780]  Yeah, I guess for me, that was like a really very interesting thing.
[03:52.880 --> 03:56.760]  And I guess we've all been there, and we've set this up to tell you a little bit about it.
[03:57.040 --> 03:58.720]  What went on there.
[03:59.380 --> 04:01.500]  Maybe some other people would want to share some experiences.
[04:01.740 --> 04:01.860]  Sure.
[04:02.200 --> 04:03.840]  Can we all just introduce ourselves?
[04:03.980 --> 04:04.380]  Yeah, sure.
[04:05.580 --> 04:06.680]  I'm Rob Ronchleib.
[04:07.000 --> 04:08.360]  I build cryptographic tools.
[04:08.980 --> 04:09.960]  My name's Ladrina.
[04:10.120 --> 04:12.040]  I'm an intern with the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[04:13.060 --> 04:14.020]  My name's Mike.
[04:14.160 --> 04:15.240]  I'm a student here in New York.
[04:15.940 --> 04:21.520]  My name's Joshua, and I work at the Media Center globally doing tech work.
[04:24.000 --> 04:27.160]  I think I'll talk a little bit about the planning of the camp.
[04:27.400 --> 04:36.140]  It only happened last week, but it actually was conceived quite a while ago, and the first planning meeting for it was about a year ago.
[04:36.140 --> 04:43.620]  And one of the interesting things that came up in this meeting is that, well, you've got people who you would call the tree huggers per se.
[04:43.800 --> 04:46.960]  You've got people who are the environmental activists.
[04:47.040 --> 04:52.920]  You've got people who are out there telling us that Exxon's bad and we should change it.
[04:52.920 --> 04:57.160]  You've got all sorts of people who fill these traditional activist roles, you would say.
[04:57.460 --> 05:02.280]  Then again, you've also got people who are activists within the technology community.
[05:02.460 --> 05:05.580]  You've seen right here, we're talking about the DMCA.
[05:05.720 --> 05:07.180]  We're talking about cryptography.
[05:07.380 --> 05:12.100]  We're talking about all sorts of things within this community that we'd like to change.
[05:12.100 --> 05:15.480]  So, they were trying to figure out, how do we address this?
[05:15.740 --> 05:22.720]  How do we figure out how to, well, say, take the tech activists and bridge them with everyone else?
[05:23.120 --> 05:33.920]  So, one interesting thing that happened is that there was about a five-day training for just everybody who was accepted to the camp, about 150 people.
[05:33.920 --> 05:44.280]  And those 150 people each day participated in two, about three or four hour long workshops on very specific things, on surveillance, on radios, everything that Rob mentioned.
[05:44.540 --> 05:53.180]  But the part beforehand that I personally unfortunately missed was a tech-to-tech skill share, where basically everybody set their own agenda.
[05:53.540 --> 05:54.780]  About how many people gathered?
[05:55.020 --> 05:56.040]  About 50 people.
[05:56.160 --> 06:01.140]  About 50 people gathered for three days just to talk about tech issues within the tech community.
[06:01.140 --> 06:07.500]  For instance, within independent media centers, how do you take a code from one center?
[06:07.620 --> 06:08.660]  How do you apply it somewhere else?
[06:08.800 --> 06:17.460]  How do you share the system that you're using in one community to, say, create a database of members for your organization, share it with somebody else?
[06:18.040 --> 06:20.520]  Actually, since Mike was there, I'll let him talk about that.
[06:21.900 --> 06:22.360]  Okay.
[06:23.160 --> 06:23.860]  Do you want to say anything more?
[06:24.220 --> 06:24.860]  Come back.
[06:25.040 --> 06:25.380]  Okay.
[06:26.620 --> 06:33.700]  Well, as Ladrina was saying, about 50 people who broadly defined were technical people.
[06:34.140 --> 06:41.400]  This encompassed a wide variety of skills, from the computer skills to there were some people doing some amazing things with digital video.
[06:41.640 --> 06:53.600]  They did a track where people who had never picked up a camera before, they went through a series of trainings, and by the end of the week, they had produced some truly amazing videos.
[06:54.300 --> 07:01.180]  There's one with a sock puppet called Bushy the Dog, and Rob is in it, and you all must obtain a copy of this video if at all possible.
[07:03.080 --> 07:15.560]  And so you had these various types of tech people who are activists, more or less, and how they're using technology, how we're using technology in our work.
[07:18.260 --> 07:38.940]  And one of the exciting things that I think has come out of the tech camp is this kind of very loose, still, quasi-whatever information thing, federation of various technical people doing activism, or activists doing technical work, whichever way you want to think about it.
[07:40.980 --> 07:50.040]  And working, you know, what tools are useful to activists, trying to get away from some kind of the federalization of technology, right?
[07:50.360 --> 07:54.560]  Because there's a lot of times, I know I've done this, probably everyone in this room has done it.
[07:55.500 --> 08:00.280]  You know, you use technology for technology's sake, which is fine, and it's fun, and it's exciting.
[08:01.060 --> 08:12.720]  But we have to also think about what, how we can make technology useful to people, rather than just, you know, pumping money into Silicon Valley because, well, they don't have enough of it or something.
[08:17.460 --> 08:19.740]  Do you want to introduce yourself real quick?
[08:19.940 --> 08:20.220]  Sure.
[08:20.580 --> 08:25.960]  My name is Biela, and I presented at Ruckus on free and open source software.
[08:26.720 --> 08:36.920]  And one of the interesting things I thought, actually, was bridging the gap between sort of non-technical activists and technical activists through sort of ethical grounds.
[08:37.540 --> 08:49.640]  And my presentation was attended by some very non-technical people who are sort of scared to adopt free and open source software because it's, like, hard to install and, like, where am I going to get help?
[08:50.820 --> 08:58.800]  And, I mean, part of my presentation was to address those issues and where you could go for help, like, to use mailing lists and user groups.
[08:59.020 --> 09:10.880]  But, I mean, one of the things I try to sort of sell people on is to look at sort of the ethical issues of why it might be important to use something like free and open source software.
[09:10.880 --> 09:22.100]  And there's actual lines of similarity between, let's just say, environmental activists and the world of hackers and open source in terms of information freedom.
[09:23.400 --> 09:31.080]  And it was great to see sort of cross-pollination between these groups and see that there's actual lines of similarity.
[09:32.260 --> 09:38.680]  And what the Ruckus Society allowed was a space for that cross-pollination to occur.
[09:40.140 --> 09:49.940]  And, you know, it was a ten-day camp, so it didn't only occur through sort of formal workshops and stuff like that, but sort of informal areas where people could get together.
[09:50.600 --> 09:55.000]  And so it was a good dialogue that opened up.
[09:58.960 --> 10:10.550]  It was really incredible to me just to see people with this huge range of skill sets sit down in the North California desert for three days and basically talk about whatever they wanted to talk about.
[10:11.050 --> 10:31.490]  We had people from Amazon Watch, Global Exchange, some people running Dow Communications and RiseUp.net, a lot of indie media folks and just to watch these people who have been sort of, one, tech people who have been like working and sort of thinking about these problems of what,
[10:31.590 --> 10:42.610]  you know, what can, what does the activist community need and what can the tech community offer being members of both and having them, you know, on, normally they're on the opposite sides of the country, if not the world.
[10:43.260 --> 10:55.140]  And just, you know, or it takes, like with the, because of tech, digital communication, it's almost instant, but it's still, you know, a few, you know, a few hours or a few days for email just to watch them in a room go back and forth.
[10:55.380 --> 10:57.960]  It was absolutely astounding for me.
[10:58.080 --> 11:06.040]  And also these people with skills that are so, like, completely outside of my range of skill set was absolutely phenomenal.
[11:06.040 --> 11:07.730]  Just, I was so blown away.
[11:07.880 --> 11:08.380]  It was funny.
[11:09.040 --> 11:11.420]  And just, people heard about it and got excited.
[11:11.660 --> 11:19.880]  I mean, these two random kids showed up who just happened to live nearby and, like, networked the whole place because they're 19 and that's what they wanted to do.
[11:21.730 --> 11:33.490]  We had another guy who came out from O'Reilly and he was, he just, he, he just decided to give a talk on community wireless and just came out for an afternoon and it wasn't his job.
[11:33.490 --> 11:36.060]  It was just the one issue that he was really happy about.
[11:36.400 --> 11:41.640]  And it really got him excited and talked on how, sort of, this fit together and just gave a presentation on it.
[11:42.280 --> 11:44.200]  And, you know, people just sort of sat down and listened.
[11:44.400 --> 11:52.400]  And I really felt there was this frank and honest exchange of ideas and there was a lot of enthusiasm around it, which was, again, incredible for me to see.
[11:55.670 --> 11:59.370]  I just want to say a bit about the space, the physical space where this took place.
[11:59.910 --> 12:09.250]  It was in Northern California, about a couple hours north of San Francisco, in this kind of very, very nice hills a few miles from the ocean.
[12:11.010 --> 12:14.210]  And also a few miles from just about anything else.
[12:15.370 --> 12:27.070]  So to set up this kind of technical space in the middle of nowhere, we had to, we had a satellite connection to wherever the satellite goes.
[12:28.750 --> 12:36.490]  So just the kind of thing that people can set up in the middle of nowhere, in this beautiful area, in just a couple days, it really says a lot.
[12:37.050 --> 12:45.510]  Actually, to add to that, I think it was a really amazing, sort of, physical inscription of just what Tech Camp was about.
[12:45.670 --> 12:50.450]  Sort of bringing a lot of groups who sort of work with the environment with technical groups.
[12:50.450 --> 12:54.290]  And so, like, in the physical space, you had the two coming together.
[12:54.590 --> 12:56.370]  And that's what we were trying to do socially.
[12:56.650 --> 12:57.890]  I thought that was really amazing.
[12:59.410 --> 13:03.390]  As far as the actual teaching went on, the space contributed a lot to that.
[13:03.450 --> 13:11.390]  You've got techie people who are working in their office 9 to 5, coming out to camp for a week, which is quite an experience in itself for some people.
[13:11.390 --> 13:16.090]  And then people who are like, wow, we've got this wired campground, what's up with that?
[13:16.250 --> 13:18.030]  I don't know, that's a little scary.
[13:19.090 --> 13:21.750]  But about the actual teaching...
[13:22.270 --> 13:34.410]  So there were two... you could go to two panels every day, basically two workshops, where you could learn about open source, about security, about surveillance, all of these things.
[13:34.410 --> 13:48.590]  And the thing that probably would be just really good to take away from our experience, I think, is that we all sat down for four hours with a group of basically strangers, who we got to know over this period of time.
[13:48.930 --> 13:54.150]  But in these four hours, people learned these completely new skill sets.
[13:54.290 --> 14:12.070]  They learned, for instance, I attended a culture jamming workshop, which is basically taking where a gentleman talked about, for instance, some protests that he had done and how he made a humorous situation into a media event, for instance.
[14:12.490 --> 14:14.970]  And he basically taught us all how to do this.
[14:15.130 --> 14:17.170]  He said, well, here's a subject for you.
[14:17.310 --> 14:20.410]  Global Exchange is going to do this campaign on separating church and state.
[14:21.290 --> 14:25.530]  So... or, sorry, it wasn't church and state, it was a corporation and state.
[14:25.650 --> 14:25.970]  Thank you.
[14:29.210 --> 14:32.950]  And basically, he sat us down at the end of it and said, okay, you guys have half an hour.
[14:33.090 --> 14:36.570]  I want you to make a 30-second little public service announcement.
[14:36.810 --> 14:39.490]  And here, we're going to record this onto digital media.
[14:39.490 --> 14:41.910]  And you guys are actually going to produce something.
[14:42.310 --> 14:48.110]  The important thing about having this four-hour workshop to actually accomplish something is, for instance, let's take H2K2.
[14:48.790 --> 14:50.230]  We're all in these one-hour sessions.
[14:50.470 --> 14:51.670]  And you can take notes.
[14:51.670 --> 14:55.610]  You can come away with whatever ideas that you want that sound really cool to do.
[14:55.610 --> 15:01.630]  But you need to make sure that if there's a topic you're really passionate about, follow up with the person who's speaking.
[15:01.930 --> 15:02.550]  Find a mentor.
[15:02.830 --> 15:04.090]  Find a way to pursue this.
[15:04.210 --> 15:07.570]  Because if everybody here at this conference comes for...
[15:07.570 --> 15:15.610]  and they attend, say, five one-hour workshops that they're really interested in, but they don't know how to do anything about, say...
[15:17.410 --> 15:19.530]  like the Negativland talk last night.
[15:20.150 --> 15:21.780]  Fair use in media.
[15:23.490 --> 15:26.350]  What are you going to do about that if you're really interested in it?
[15:26.410 --> 15:27.910]  What are you going to do to change that?
[15:28.330 --> 15:32.010]  And I would say, personally, this really encouraged me to seek out people.
[15:32.430 --> 15:33.890]  Learn as much as you can.
[15:34.070 --> 15:35.190]  Find people who are mentors.
[15:35.530 --> 15:37.930]  Talk to people who are knowledgeable in these subjects.
[15:37.930 --> 15:48.390]  Because a one-hour talk, such as the ones we're getting here, really are not sufficient to educate you if you want to become really active about something, whether it's technical or not.
[15:49.250 --> 15:51.430]  That's one thing that I would encourage everyone here to do.
[15:53.650 --> 15:55.290]  Also, I mean...
[15:55.290 --> 15:56.370]  Go ahead.
[15:57.430 --> 16:05.690]  The other thing I thought about, too, was that if you live in a city, there's obviously all sorts of different types of organizations, like technical, non-technical.
[16:06.870 --> 16:19.230]  And, you know, I encourage a lot of the activist, non-technical people and organizations to seek out the technical organizations in their group, whether it's a non-profit or a Linux user group.
[16:19.230 --> 16:26.170]  And sort of vice versa can happen, too, if you're involved with sort of a technical activist group.
[16:26.290 --> 16:32.110]  Sort of seek out other groups in your area where you could sort of hold mini-workshops on the weekend.
[16:35.050 --> 16:40.030]  I met a number of people there who are my political heroes, personally.
[16:41.170 --> 16:43.910]  The guy that does GWBush.com was there.
[16:44.750 --> 16:47.290]  The guy doing Billionaires for Bush or Gore.
[16:47.290 --> 16:49.910]  The people behind RT Mark were there.
[16:51.170 --> 16:51.630]  These are...
[16:52.130 --> 16:56.390]  My idea of political action is that, above everything, it has to be fun.
[16:57.350 --> 17:02.510]  You're talking in the present day about a very small group of people trying to accomplish change.
[17:02.750 --> 17:05.250]  And the best way you're going to do that is by making people laugh.
[17:05.370 --> 17:07.330]  It's one of the more powerful weapons.
[17:09.330 --> 17:20.390]  And you can also see that how powerful these groups are is really no longer reflected by how many people follow them around on the streets or carry a banner or...
[17:20.970 --> 17:27.150]  Because these very powerful institutions, The Yes Men, RT Mark, that's basically one guy, it's the same guy.
[17:28.230 --> 17:42.250]  So basically these three or four people are at least as powerful as whole large groups, complete trade unions, huge organizations carrying banners and protesting in the streets.
[17:42.250 --> 17:45.550]  And I think this is also becoming obvious to these people.
[17:45.710 --> 18:03.040]  I think if you'd have to say what are the forces driving, say, the hacker world and the activist world together, which are driving activists towards technology or hackers towards activism, I think to define these forces, it would be the IMCs and the DMCA.
[18:03.400 --> 18:08.400]  The DMCA has made the hacker community realize that they are in fact at war.
[18:08.840 --> 18:14.260]  That this is not about kids breaking into computer systems and, yeah, okay, we can stop doing that and go do other stuff.
[18:14.460 --> 18:20.620]  But this is in fact about their core principles and beliefs and that if they don't do anything, they're going to lose.
[18:21.740 --> 18:26.900]  Whereas the activist community has seen firsthand through RT Mark and through...
[18:26.900 --> 18:29.840]  Does anybody, everybody here know what RT Mark does?
[18:30.420 --> 18:32.300]  They do some insane stuff.
[18:34.500 --> 18:51.660]  RT Mark, also sometimes called The Yes Men, they have made the World Trade Organization issue a press release that they were not in fact disbanding to reform under a new charter which would be based on the declaration, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
[18:51.660 --> 19:00.240]  Now, if you could force a large organization employing thousands of people to issue a press release like that, that's brilliant.
[19:02.300 --> 19:03.340]  There's a lot of good stuff.
[19:03.500 --> 19:03.980]  Sorry?
[19:04.420 --> 19:06.260]  There's a lot of good stuff on RT Mark.
[19:06.500 --> 19:08.380]  Yeah, they do many more things.
[19:08.700 --> 19:11.680]  There's a lot of cool ideas up on RT Mark as well.
[19:11.680 --> 19:12.440]  Yes, yes.
[19:12.700 --> 19:13.920]  They're very, very interesting.
[19:14.060 --> 19:15.400]  RT Mark.com.
[19:18.400 --> 19:18.840]  Sorry?
[19:21.580 --> 19:22.180]  Yeah, yeah.
[19:22.360 --> 19:24.220]  All the information is on that site, I think.
[19:24.340 --> 19:25.720]  They also have GATT.org.
[19:26.100 --> 19:34.360]  So if you go look for information on the global arrangements on tariff and trade at GATT.org, you'll find their site and not the WTO.
[19:35.940 --> 19:40.160]  I think the activist community is also seeing this force multiplier factor.
[19:40.300 --> 19:58.240]  They're seeing that certain groups in their midst are just phenomenally much more successful than others and that usually it has something to do with mastering technology and mastering how to talk to large groups of people efficiently, how to mess up other people's structures and communications,
[19:58.240 --> 20:05.940]  not by hacking into them, but just by understanding how they work and how to throw a monkey wrench in them most efficiently.
[20:07.880 --> 20:17.580]  So I think that, for me, this is the last year or the last two years have been the years where these developments really came to a head, where really important things happened.
[20:23.690 --> 20:34.430]  I guess I'll give an example of some things that, as technology, we can do to help out the other side, to help your classic activists.
[20:34.810 --> 20:37.350]  I just don't want to divide us into sides.
[20:37.770 --> 20:38.010]  Okay.
[20:38.570 --> 20:42.250]  Because I guess that was the whole point that everyone really did cross over.
[20:42.890 --> 20:53.230]  But as somebody who, as a technology expert and as an activist, who would like to get more involved in, say, the activist community, is that fair to say?
[20:55.410 --> 21:03.150]  There are organizations who need really... things that might seem really small to you or really important to them.
[21:03.550 --> 21:08.850]  If you can help somebody learn how to use PGP, get that up and running on their system.
[21:09.070 --> 21:23.430]  If you can help them build a website, not just help them build it, but teach them how to code, teach them how to maintain it, help them along in this process, these small groups will be very grateful for your time.
[21:23.630 --> 21:26.170]  And I think that you'll receive a lot back in the end.
[21:26.790 --> 21:32.750]  A lot of gratitude and just getting involved is really just... that's even the simplest level.
[21:32.930 --> 21:34.190]  And it's so easy to do.
[21:37.040 --> 21:38.080]  Is there anybody here?
[21:38.520 --> 21:40.400]  Let's have this more sort of...
[21:41.140 --> 21:42.420]  I wonder about that one.
[21:42.520 --> 21:43.960]  And come up to the microphone, please.
[21:45.960 --> 21:48.880]  I think I've tried to talk to a lot of activists about computers.
[21:49.260 --> 21:52.380]  And I think I thought a lot of activists are not going to know anything about computers.
[21:52.660 --> 21:58.820]  So, one of the questions I had for you was, did you find there were certain ways of talking about things in this conference?
[21:59.180 --> 22:02.320]  Or certain... I don't know...
[22:02.320 --> 22:09.260]  Passable, like, sections of language that you guys found useful for communicating between two groups that use really different tactics?
[22:10.120 --> 22:11.400]  Can't hear back here.
[22:11.660 --> 22:12.280]  Working on it.
[22:12.640 --> 22:13.080]  I'm sorry.
[22:13.160 --> 22:13.340]  Are you happy
[22:22.170 --> 22:24.250]  that you found where they shared vocabulary...
[22:24.250 --> 22:31.050]  Was there a particular type of communication between the sort of the geeks and the activists that you found more effective?
[22:31.290 --> 22:33.110]  Because I think in a lot of ways...
[22:33.810 --> 22:34.030]  I'm sorry.
[22:34.250 --> 22:35.170]  Just one thing.
[22:35.350 --> 22:39.090]  The geeks have a lot of time... hard times fielding questions they feel like are stupid.
[22:39.770 --> 22:42.590]  And activists a lot of times will be put off by things that they won't.
[22:42.590 --> 22:48.510]  So, if you guys had such an incredibly successful conference, I'm wondering if you can kind of help us when we're not in...
[22:48.510 --> 22:58.670]  When we're trying to have interactions in unstructured environments, what types of specific techniques you came across that helped information move freely and pass over people's biases.
[22:58.670 --> 23:02.310]  Like, ooh, I never got past algebra, so how can I possibly make a website?
[23:02.830 --> 23:03.410]  You know?
[23:04.590 --> 23:05.550]  I think...
[23:05.550 --> 23:14.190]  There was definitely a sort of a sensitivity thing at the beginning where like, let's not all use acronyms and instead explain what they stand for.
[23:15.250 --> 23:22.890]  Which I think was a revelation to a lot of non-geeks there that most of the geeks actually have no clue what these acronyms stand for.
[23:23.010 --> 23:25.370]  But you do know the word, it's usually bullshit.
[23:25.590 --> 23:29.830]  Yes, it's usually bullshit and it doesn't really explain anything that goes on.
[23:30.730 --> 23:33.290]  That was a revelation, I think, to a few people.
[23:33.930 --> 23:35.850]  And yes, there were irritations as well.
[23:36.010 --> 23:43.510]  There were some people talking in fast geek speak and others saying, well, I don't understand a word you're saying.
[23:43.510 --> 23:44.370]  Why don't you help me?
[23:45.590 --> 23:49.990]  But I think mostly people were trying to help each other and trying to solve these problems.
[23:50.010 --> 23:53.670]  But you just have to pay attention to who you're talking to.
[23:53.970 --> 24:02.030]  I usually go off explaining some technical concepts and I try hard to make it where I really go into the technical depth of it.
[24:02.110 --> 24:05.670]  I really try to explain why it's this way and why this detail is such.
[24:06.270 --> 24:22.550]  But I try to do it in such a way that it makes sense to the people that don't have the technical background and that they can easily skip whatever parts are technical and still get the sort of executive summary as to why they should care or why it's important or why they should listen to people that think this and not that.
[24:26.190 --> 24:42.650]  So given that, yes, there's like the old style activism and also very American thing, the sensitivity, political correctness sort of thing, which still lingers in the activist world a lot more than it does in the communities where I'm from.
[24:44.330 --> 24:55.650]  The persons identifying as male caucus and going off in five different groups and writing down ways in which white male culture dominates other cultures.
[24:56.030 --> 25:04.470]  This white male guilt trip that happened there and I don't think it's a particularly helpful or positive...
[25:04.470 --> 25:15.590]  It's a means in which these people are, in my humble opinion, giving each other headaches, which has a lot to do with American Puritanism, which just happens to got disconnected from religion.
[25:15.930 --> 25:21.050]  But that's just my personal rant and it really wasn't dominant there.
[25:21.250 --> 25:23.990]  I'm told it was much worse five years ago in these communities.
[25:24.330 --> 25:30.270]  So it wasn't dominant and it didn't at any moment spoil my good time.
[25:30.270 --> 25:36.410]  But I'm just saying there's all sorts of sensitivities between and inside these communities that you just have to deal with.
[25:37.070 --> 25:39.910]  And you just try to get along.
[25:40.190 --> 25:43.850]  I'm going to register my disagreement with Rob's rant and then answer your question.
[25:45.370 --> 25:58.790]  I think that, you know, it's often hard for me and for other people to stop thinking about the technology and think about the activism and not, you know, use the technology.
[25:59.050 --> 26:02.810]  Most people don't care what HTML is or HTTP or any of this.
[26:02.870 --> 26:03.970]  They just want a website.
[26:04.390 --> 26:06.270]  And how can we do that?
[26:24.860 --> 26:25.780]  Okay, hold on.
[26:29.680 --> 26:36.140]  Just to summarize, there's a gentleman in the front who doesn't like making websites for his friends.
[26:36.340 --> 26:38.960]  He's refused to do it and not wanting to be home.
[26:39.160 --> 26:39.360]  I'm sorry.
[26:39.980 --> 26:41.620]  Yeah, we're just trying to keep everybody involved.
[26:42.060 --> 26:43.380]  It's great that you're excited.
[26:43.560 --> 26:45.800]  We just want to keep everybody participating to some degree.
[26:46.460 --> 26:48.220]  So, did you want to field that or...?
[26:48.220 --> 26:50.040]  He's willing to teach people how to...
[26:50.040 --> 26:52.120]  He is willing to teach people how to use a web editor.
[26:52.940 --> 26:57.300]  I mean, I think it's a combination of finding people who are in the...
[26:57.300 --> 26:59.820]  People wanting to learn and finding good ways to teach.
[26:59.980 --> 27:12.540]  You know, a lot of what Ruckus was about was creating this sort of safe space of just sort of realizing that not everybody is, you know, on the same level and you may have to, you know, drop down...
[27:12.540 --> 27:18.200]  You may have to drop down a few gears and shed all your acronyms and sort of say, you know, it's okay to...
[27:18.700 --> 27:22.900]  It's okay not to know everything, which is a really hard thing to admit, especially in this community.
[27:23.440 --> 27:26.240]  And then to say, you know, it's okay to ask questions.
[27:26.640 --> 27:31.820]  Which is, I mean, I think valuable generally, but really made this way...
[27:31.820 --> 27:33.220]  Made everything successful.
[27:33.220 --> 27:33.280]  Made everything successful.
[27:34.320 --> 27:34.760]  Were...
[27:35.760 --> 27:37.980]  Okay, we now have...
[27:39.740 --> 27:40.780]  Did that answer your question?
[27:40.940 --> 27:41.540]  Did you have a...
[27:42.060 --> 27:42.280]  Can...
[27:42.280 --> 27:44.460]  I add one more thing to that actually?
[27:44.760 --> 27:54.260]  Which is, I think a lot of activists who don't know about technology perceive the world of technology as apolitical.
[27:55.160 --> 28:00.780]  And once you sort of explained to them, oh no, there's a lot of politics going on.
[28:00.960 --> 28:06.420]  It might not come in the same package as your type of activism, but it's a form of activism.
[28:08.120 --> 28:10.780]  I saw them get really excited about it, actually.
[28:11.080 --> 28:22.700]  I mean, a lot of people who didn't know about the world of free software and alternative legal licenses, who really care about patents because they're against, you know, patents for genes and genetically engineered foods.
[28:22.700 --> 28:28.920]  And all of a sudden, there was a world within technology that is treating information in such a way that they want to treat information.
[28:29.220 --> 28:33.280]  And I think that got them excited about using the stuff and learning about it.
[28:33.400 --> 28:45.600]  So I think it's important to sort of translate the sort of messages that are within technology activists to those who don't know about it because there's, again, lines of similarity.
[28:45.840 --> 28:49.020]  And it's just a matter of, like, opening up the channels of communication.
[29:02.620 --> 29:08.000]  I think the issue here is more than just, I mean, he was talking about HTML.
[29:08.280 --> 29:11.020]  People ask him to make a web page because that's all the activist wants.
[29:11.240 --> 29:12.660]  So he comes in like a house painter.
[29:12.840 --> 29:15.480]  Okay, you know, I'm going to help the activist by painting a house by making a web page.
[29:16.380 --> 29:23.220]  Your point about understanding the technological and political issues, free software versus, say, Microsoft, is one key element.
[29:23.440 --> 29:31.900]  But another thing is, if I showed up to build a website for an activist organization wearing a Gap t-shirt, certain people would, you know, have a problem with that.
[29:31.900 --> 29:40.220]  But as a technology, as an activist-minded computer person, people would ask me to do certain things.
[29:40.400 --> 29:48.480]  Like, I'm building a website for a very large community-based organization that's very active in low-income housing, et cetera, et cetera.
[29:48.740 --> 29:50.100]  They don't care what they want.
[29:50.180 --> 29:51.480]  They just want their stuff.
[29:53.220 --> 30:02.520]  Someone along the way introduced them to open-source software, to FreeBSD, to a whole bunch of things, to privacy and whatnot, and got them very excited about it.
[30:02.840 --> 30:06.160]  And it's, to us, people that come in and say, oh, we want a Microsoft website.
[30:06.160 --> 30:09.280]  That's like me wearing a Gap t-shirt to, you know.
[30:09.280 --> 30:18.960]  And I think the issue for me, and I believe for you, is how do we communicate with the left, for me, is the thing.
[30:19.100 --> 30:23.980]  I've always considered myself a radical, but leftists seem to have certain language that I don't necessarily understand.
[30:24.840 --> 30:28.200]  Hackers and technology people have a language that no one understands.
[30:28.560 --> 30:30.240]  How do we get together?
[30:30.240 --> 30:32.400]  How do you guys do it successfully the first time?
[30:34.480 --> 30:36.800]  I think there's been, there's been successes before.
[30:37.060 --> 30:42.940]  It's just, we're watching the, we're in a time where we're watching the overlap grow dramatically.
[30:43.260 --> 30:47.260]  The whole IMC movement is infested with hacker geek minds.
[30:50.000 --> 30:53.500]  There's plenty of people running around in our movement who have political roots.
[30:54.160 --> 30:58.460]  So I think we're just watching the overlap grow, and that takes care of it almost automatically.
[31:00.060 --> 31:04.520]  It doesn't mean we don't have to actually try and go out and educate people.
[31:04.720 --> 31:11.520]  But I think the growing overlap is what's causing most of the cross-pollination at the moment.
[31:11.780 --> 31:18.420]  I think there's often this notion that I'm this whatever, and I'm going to go into this group and show them whatever.
[31:19.140 --> 31:21.840]  And I don't think that works for really either side.
[31:21.840 --> 31:32.500]  We get into the house painter situation we described before, and we get from the activists then, you know, think of you like a house painter.
[31:32.720 --> 31:39.480]  Like, you know, here's this service, and I don't understand it, but there's this guy I know who kind of does it for us, and it seems to work.
[31:40.740 --> 31:48.340]  I think for myself, you know, I try and be as much as possible in both camps, and, you know, legitimately in both camps.
[31:48.940 --> 31:51.120]  And maybe that's uncomfortable for some people.
[31:51.240 --> 31:52.780]  Maybe they just want to be a house painter.
[31:54.860 --> 32:01.360]  But, you know, I think we need to really, as individuals, be kind of our own alliance, right?
[32:01.360 --> 32:04.300]  You know, to understand both sides.
[32:05.020 --> 32:08.500]  And as I said before, to, like, stop this whole notion of science.
[32:08.820 --> 32:11.480]  And you can be a little bit pushy about it.
[32:11.540 --> 32:26.300]  You can say, look, if your business, if your core business, if you will, is to get information out to people, and if your core business is to educate people about some wrong in the world, and you have no idea what it means, what Google rank your page has,
[32:27.820 --> 32:30.940]  then you're not performing your core business functions right.
[32:32.080 --> 32:44.880]  If you're just producing this piece of information, and then you don't care how it ends up on the web, then you're just going to be replaced by more intelligent organizational forums that do care about their Google rank.
[32:46.940 --> 32:59.640]  So, I think that, call that arrogance, call that what you want, but reaching out to these people, and so, at some point, shaking them a little bit as well, and saying, look, your business is information, and these are the tools of information.
[32:59.800 --> 33:06.640]  This is the pirate radio becomes tensile machine of the future, and you better learn how to use it.
[33:06.980 --> 33:08.000]  You've learned how to write.
[33:08.340 --> 33:09.560]  That's an information tool.
[33:10.820 --> 33:12.960]  You couldn't do what you were doing if you couldn't write.
[33:12.960 --> 33:14.420]  Well, wake up.
[33:14.520 --> 33:15.120]  There's more to learn.
[33:16.180 --> 33:20.040]  I'm going to just repeat my mantra that I said before, it's teaching.
[33:21.600 --> 33:29.100]  Another analogy, let's say the first time somebody asked you not to buy Gap clothing, maybe you didn't get the idea right away, or maybe your friend didn't get it.
[33:29.300 --> 33:34.340]  But when they heard it from every other one of your ten friends, maybe the idea started to get there.
[33:34.580 --> 33:48.900]  So, maybe it's not even in talking to people who are activist-minded, maybe it's even a step back from there and saying, hey, look, you're somebody who's technologically oriented, could you bring this issue to other people that you're working with?
[33:49.020 --> 33:57.580]  Could you ask them to say, make people aware that when they're doing these projects, we can teach them about open source?
[33:57.800 --> 34:00.680]  Can we teach maybe other technology people first?
[34:01.420 --> 34:03.500]  I don't know if that's helpful for your question.
[34:04.480 --> 34:05.740]  Thank you all for coming.
[34:06.420 --> 34:14.620]  I'm involved in a variety of open source community projects, and if I could just make a brief comment, I think the short question is just start talking.
[34:14.620 --> 34:22.460]  Because if people are intelligent, and they are intelligent, and if what you say makes sense, they're going to listen to it.
[34:22.780 --> 34:23.660]  Just start talking.
[34:23.880 --> 34:24.960]  Sounds cheesy, but it works.
[34:25.600 --> 34:31.960]  I was wondering, there's this... I don't like buzzwords, but I think what we're dealing with is emergence.
[34:31.960 --> 34:36.640]  I think we're finally seeing that the whole thing is starting to make sense.
[34:37.960 --> 34:44.900]  And if all of you could make some brief comments, if that's possible, where you think we're going.
[34:44.900 --> 34:47.880]  And I'm a technoflick.
[34:48.020 --> 34:52.720]  I think technology is the most important thing as far as freedom is concerned, which is my limited perspective.
[34:52.720 --> 34:55.280]  So I'd like to know what you think.
[34:56.100 --> 34:59.240]  Where are we going, let's say, the next ten years?
[34:59.620 --> 35:00.800]  Are we going to succeed?
[35:01.820 --> 35:02.260]  Thanks.
[35:06.260 --> 35:08.480]  Maybe, at least this is my ideal world.
[35:08.660 --> 35:23.900]  We could have people who, if they aren't technologically proficient in all of these different fields, if they're not proficient in networking and security and all of these things, that people can at least be... have a basic level of technological literacy.
[35:24.460 --> 35:26.040]  That's what I would really like to see.
[35:26.180 --> 35:30.260]  I think that's what many, many people came away with from this camp.
[35:30.260 --> 35:38.720]  They were like, oh, well, I might not know how to use this yet, but I have some inkling of it, and I have the resources to pursue it.
[35:39.000 --> 35:43.320]  Or I know that... just basically the significance behind issues.
[35:43.400 --> 35:47.660]  If they don't know how to use it, they have the tools to be able to find out how to use it.
[35:48.700 --> 35:51.860]  That's what I hope is happening, and that's what I definitely saw happening here.
[35:54.930 --> 35:55.370]  Hi.
[35:55.870 --> 35:56.570]  Oh, I'm sorry.
[35:56.930 --> 35:58.470]  Anybody else want to comment?
[35:59.530 --> 36:00.310]  I don't know.
[36:01.510 --> 36:09.690]  I'm just... I think this is a really incredible time where you've got all these really, what were, divergent currents just sort of coming together in the...
[36:10.290 --> 36:31.630]  not just the activist community and the hacker community, but you really... people are really making an issue out of media literacy and community organizing and trying to fit what we're seeing in the environment, what we're seeing as these sort of separate issues and finding out how they interact with each other and really the force multiplier.
[36:32.830 --> 36:36.150]  And I don't know, I really have no idea what the next ten years are going to look like.
[36:37.470 --> 36:41.070]  There's going to be flying cars and they're going to make that little... sound.
[36:46.350 --> 36:47.990]  That's my prediction for the future.
[36:48.870 --> 36:52.310]  Then the flying cars are going to use up lots of oil and cause wars.
[36:55.570 --> 37:13.350]  Actually, also, I mean, from seeing how things have just changed in the last four or five years, I'm actually mostly an anthropologist and I have been following like free and open source and also have a foot in activism and it's been really great to see just sentiments change in both communities.
[37:13.350 --> 37:20.310]  They have and I think we're at this juncture point where they're becoming... they're... yeah, they're not even separate.
[37:20.450 --> 37:24.830]  I mean, there's people in sort of open source who are like really involved in indie media and vice versa.
[37:25.110 --> 37:37.070]  And as we become aware of this now, it's just sort of to keep forging ahead and making sort of alliances between these different but connected domains.
[37:42.210 --> 37:42.890]  Sorry.
[37:44.430 --> 37:51.030]  I recognize what Mike was saying earlier about not wanting to make the distinction between hackers and activists.
[37:51.190 --> 37:52.170]  I think that's valuable.
[37:52.770 --> 38:10.670]  If I could make it for a moment though and speak about activists who are not technologically savvy and hackers who are not activist savvy, we've already spoken about the ruckus camp trying to bring the non-technologically savvy activists more towards the center of that spectrum.
[38:11.590 --> 38:15.690]  But I was wondering if any of you could speak about any efforts to do sort of the opposite.
[38:16.790 --> 38:20.150]  Speaking as somebody in the... you know, who bridges both.
[38:20.730 --> 38:26.230]  Seeing the the Free Dimitri protests pictures, which frankly kind of horrified me.
[38:26.310 --> 38:29.570]  It seemed... it seemed like they had a lot to learn from activists.
[38:29.930 --> 38:35.170]  And if any of you could talk about any efforts that are being made to either promote that or what could be done.
[38:35.170 --> 38:37.810]  One such effort was the ruckus camp last week.
[38:38.230 --> 38:38.990]  Oh, right there.
[38:39.370 --> 38:39.850]  Yeah.
[38:42.050 --> 38:48.710]  Another such effort was I went to some of the Free Dimitri protests and tried as much as I could to offer some activism advice.
[38:51.110 --> 38:54.610]  I think it has to be done individually on a local level.
[38:55.910 --> 39:03.810]  I think the fact that we're all here and the program here isn't all about just security exploits.
[39:04.230 --> 39:06.030]  But it's very much about independent media.
[39:06.430 --> 39:10.650]  It's very much about... I mean, look at the guy that does Boondocks, something about his name.
[39:11.770 --> 39:13.750]  Aaron McGregor that was here yesterday.
[39:15.190 --> 39:23.130]  Just all this stuff happening here, the part of the curriculum which isn't so much about some deep technological issue.
[39:23.130 --> 39:26.390]  I think that is very much us converging in that direction.
[39:26.590 --> 39:29.930]  And I think the DMCA did a lot to create that movement.
[39:30.070 --> 39:41.550]  The DMCA, I think, as I said before, is a turning point in waking up a lot of these hackers who normally wouldn't look out their window to see what was going on in the world.
[39:45.390 --> 39:45.790]  Hi.
[39:46.390 --> 39:50.630]  I just wanted to make a comment that I hope that you folks will follow up on.
[39:51.170 --> 39:58.050]  One of the ideas that was brought to the Ruckus Camp came from an organization I work for in Philadelphia called the Prometheus Radio Project.
[39:58.630 --> 39:59.450]  Pete Tridish was there.
[39:59.730 --> 40:12.350]  And I think it's one of the neatest projects that's actually getting activists from the technological sphere and activists from the free media and political and human rights sphere.
[40:12.350 --> 40:18.870]  And together is the campaign that Media Alliance and Prometheus are starting against the Clear Channel Corporation.
[40:19.250 --> 40:25.270]  Because there's going to be some traditional hacking activities associated with that.
[40:25.410 --> 40:28.830]  And also some traditional things like banner drops and protests.
[40:28.830 --> 40:33.610]  And I just wanted to know a little bit more about what was discussed about that.
[40:33.890 --> 40:43.250]  And what other initiatives and plans for campaigns are coming up that are going to be marrying the two wings of the activist movement.
[40:47.070 --> 40:53.190]  There was definitely a lot of micro radio, small radio, pirate radio stuff happening there and discussed.
[40:54.810 --> 40:58.650]  It's not so much my thing, I'm not so much into micro radio.
[41:00.790 --> 41:04.790]  But again, there was lots of strategies discussed.
[41:04.970 --> 41:20.010]  I think there was a workshop on how to link webcasting with pirate radio and how to do that efficiently and how to not have the webcasting in any way legally involved with any of the pirate radio stuff that happens once they get their signal out there.
[41:20.010 --> 41:23.330]  Just to clarify, I wasn't talking at all about pirate radio.
[41:23.730 --> 41:27.630]  There's going to be a big campaign to attack the Clear Channel Corporation.
[41:28.030 --> 41:31.390]  Even though it wouldn't... like putting low power FM to the side.
[41:31.570 --> 41:32.870]  Just that they don't have diversity.
[41:33.030 --> 41:42.490]  And it's definitely an issue that technologically or the people who are interested in free media and free diversity and also traditional kinds of activists can get together about.
[41:43.030 --> 41:43.890]  That's more than I meant.
[41:43.890 --> 41:44.370]  Okay.
[41:45.110 --> 41:56.130]  There were a few brainstorming sessions with the guy from Artmark and sort of talking about the idea that it's better to... it's better to have doom on your side than surprise.
[41:56.450 --> 42:06.290]  So it's better to make a big announcement that something's coming down the pipe than like hit them with surprise because it just sort of like mess with getting inside their head and take them off their game.
[42:07.030 --> 42:08.670]  Use a terrible sports analogy.
[42:10.250 --> 42:13.390]  I'm not really... it wasn't too much in depth.
[42:13.590 --> 42:19.490]  People sort of floated a few ideas about coming up with letter writing...
[42:19.490 --> 42:31.890]  I think a few sort of letter writing campaigns and linking just limited choice and really like making that physical connection of, you know, why you hear crap on your radio dial is because if you go to this...
[42:31.890 --> 42:34.950]  In fact, you go to the same city, you know, different cities, you hear the same crap.
[42:35.150 --> 42:37.430]  It's because it's all being programmed out of the same place.
[42:38.190 --> 42:41.930]  And another group... there's a big... this is September.
[42:42.370 --> 42:47.430]  There's the National Association of Broadcasters is meeting in Seattle.
[42:47.630 --> 42:53.530]  And they're doing... I think they're doing media literacy stuff leading up to that.
[42:53.630 --> 42:55.090]  And I can't remember what the dates are.
[42:57.290 --> 42:59.830]  It's 12th or 14th is what I'm told.
[42:59.950 --> 43:04.070]  It's on... I think it's microradio.net is hosting it.
[43:04.070 --> 43:09.070]  And it'll be on Seattle... there should be an upcoming notice on seattle.indiamedia.org.
[43:09.530 --> 43:14.930]  But it wasn't... unfortunately, it wasn't too much... it wasn't discussed too thoroughly.
[43:15.290 --> 43:16.870]  We have just five minutes left.
[43:17.030 --> 43:22.130]  So before we take your next question, we want to thank the Alameda County Computer Resource Center.
[43:22.290 --> 43:23.810]  That's what the acronym stands for.
[43:25.130 --> 43:29.450]  Who provided all hundreds of computers for the Rutgers camp.
[43:29.690 --> 43:31.250]  And this gentleman is from that organization.
[43:41.310 --> 43:43.370]  If I can just give a quick plug for the ACCRC.
[43:44.130 --> 43:46.030]  It's the Alameda County Computer Resource Center.
[43:46.170 --> 43:49.250]  It's a non-profit computer recycling center in Oakland, California.
[43:49.530 --> 43:59.950]  So if any of you are from the Bay Area and you have some free time or some volunteer time you want to donate to the Alameda County Computer Resource Center, go to www.accrc.org.
[43:59.950 --> 44:05.550]  We take PCs... we take all sorts of electronic equipment and recycle it.
[44:05.650 --> 44:08.290]  But the PCs that we get, they're above 166 megahertz.
[44:08.390 --> 44:09.450]  We install Linux on them.
[44:09.570 --> 44:14.550]  And we give them to third world nations, non-profits, underprivileged individuals, the Ruckus Society.
[44:15.210 --> 44:21.830]  And if you want to come out and give us a hand or if you need equipment, go to www.accrc.org and take a look.
[44:21.830 --> 44:22.990]  Thanks very much.
[44:28.270 --> 44:29.310]  I'll make this brief.
[44:29.870 --> 44:31.650]  Thank you for coming and speaking.
[44:31.910 --> 44:35.430]  I'd also like to thank everybody here that's attended the conference.
[44:36.430 --> 44:48.210]  You know, I've read some material on hacking, but you don't really get to understand the hacking culture, the actual people and the vibe, the feel, until you actually come to an event like this.
[44:48.730 --> 44:50.790]  And I'm very impressed with what I've seen.
[44:50.790 --> 45:02.070]  And I think we will see an emergence of local political activism and this community merging because you're a bunch of great people.
[45:02.350 --> 45:02.670]  Thank you.
[45:05.310 --> 45:06.270]  We blush.
[45:06.750 --> 45:07.410]  We blush.
[45:08.250 --> 45:08.890]  What more?
[45:09.030 --> 45:13.310]  I think that, you know, everything we've heard here is very, very hopeful.
[45:13.710 --> 45:14.810]  It's important.
[45:16.210 --> 45:27.830]  However, naturally, what's most hopeful is, and I'm hearing that you people are interested in other media, besides just computers and just the internet.
[45:28.110 --> 45:29.250]  That's very, very important.
[45:30.070 --> 45:35.890]  Everybody should have shortwave, you know, low-power FM access.
[45:36.130 --> 45:37.830]  That's an extremely important expansion.
[45:37.830 --> 45:46.870]  But if you're going to run any kind of a campaign, the object is how effective you get into the public consciousness.
[45:47.670 --> 45:52.770]  Many people, it's what they do or how cute what they did was.
[45:53.210 --> 45:56.430]  It's how effectively you get into the public consciousness, number one.
[45:56.670 --> 46:08.510]  Number two, it seems to me that the best thing you could do is bring new concepts or important concepts to the general public.
[46:08.690 --> 46:09.210]  Okay?
[46:09.570 --> 46:14.250]  It's also who you target.
[46:14.550 --> 46:15.070]  Okay?
[46:15.510 --> 46:22.830]  If you are looking for profound international attention, it's a lot better to have a leafleting.
[46:24.110 --> 46:35.850]  It's a much better leafleting than 68th Street and Park Avenue, outside of the Council of the Americas or the Council on Foreign Relations, rather than on 11th Avenue somewhere in Manhattan.
[46:36.150 --> 46:38.990]  So it's how you target and where you target.
[46:39.550 --> 46:39.670]  All right?
[46:40.190 --> 46:41.990]  It's also... I don't know.
[46:42.550 --> 46:43.710]  You look in the health field.
[46:43.890 --> 46:45.130]  Codex is coming up.
[46:45.310 --> 46:47.110]  That's a huge issue, okay?
[46:47.390 --> 46:58.430]  If you could tie yourself to some of these huge issues, the thing is that which are of great importance, and the new things which have been totally kept away from the public, that's a wonderful energy source.
[46:58.830 --> 47:03.010]  Certainly the International Association for Health and Freedom and the Internet has started that.
[47:03.390 --> 47:09.370]  These are two things that I most hope you're able to achieve, but keep what you're doing.
[47:09.510 --> 47:15.660]  I know it's discouraging at times, but what you're doing here is very vital for the entire country's freedom.
[47:16.430 --> 47:17.250]  Thank you very much.
[47:18.050 --> 47:22.630]  These are... I think these are excellent last words because we're out of time, I'm being told.
[47:23.290 --> 47:23.450]  Okay.
[47:23.450 --> 47:24.590]  Thank you all very much for coming.