[00:38.980 --> 00:39.840]  Check, one, two.
[00:42.620 --> 00:43.940]  Okay, first I have an announcement.
[00:45.260 --> 00:46.420]  We're still working on the T1.
[00:50.740 --> 00:52.340]  It's Bell Atlantic, what do you expect?
[00:52.480 --> 00:53.800]  That's why they keep changing their name.
[00:56.480 --> 00:57.400]  Always have a different company.
[00:57.560 --> 01:01.960]  You realize every time we've had one of these conferences, the phone company has had a different name.
[01:02.080 --> 01:05.460]  First it was New York Telephone, then it was NYNEX, then it was Bell Atlantic, next time it'll be Verizon.
[01:05.460 --> 01:06.780]  Who knows after that?
[01:07.380 --> 01:10.200]  Your T1 line will be just over the Verizon.
[01:13.020 --> 01:14.160]  I'll come back to haunt them.
[01:15.080 --> 01:18.280]  Announcement about the film we're showing later, 7pm in this room.
[01:18.400 --> 01:19.540]  You need tickets to get in.
[01:19.620 --> 01:21.320]  The tickets are free, but you do need a ticket.
[01:21.480 --> 01:25.580]  And that's only to prevent, you know, like, you know, soccer style rioting type of thing that goes on.
[01:27.020 --> 01:28.820]  We're hoping to get a bigger screen than that.
[01:29.400 --> 01:32.860]  We have one on order that's on its way over here from someplace.
[01:32.860 --> 01:34.260]  Hopefully we'll get here in time.
[01:34.460 --> 01:39.840]  So basically there'll be a table outside with ticket information.
[01:40.080 --> 01:50.420]  So we also have a similar situation for the keynote tomorrow on the Jello Biafra, and also for the mock trial tomorrow night of us on the DeCSS issue.
[01:50.860 --> 01:52.200]  And that brings us to this panel.
[01:54.000 --> 01:56.680]  More or less like what the last panel covered, we covered legal issues.
[01:56.820 --> 02:01.540]  But this next panel we're going to try and delve more into what DeCSS is, what it does.
[02:02.340 --> 02:04.920]  If you have any technical questions, we'll try our best to answer those.
[02:05.860 --> 02:17.720]  I have to my left, Emmanuel by the way, to our left, my left actually, is Mackie, our webmaster, who basically, whatever you read on 2600.com, it's because of him.
[02:22.600 --> 02:25.060]  What I mean by that is, it's all his fault.
[02:25.940 --> 02:29.000]  He put it there, I had nothing to do with it, I tried to stop it.
[02:29.140 --> 02:30.400]  Alright, that's what I mean by that.
[02:30.400 --> 02:31.960]  Except for the really old stuff.
[02:32.320 --> 02:33.420]  That was already there.
[02:33.860 --> 02:36.780]  And next to him, Jon Johansen from Norway, who...
[02:43.420 --> 02:52.360]  Who has come to our country at great personal risk, because we're kind of a hostile nation towards people who decode things or figure things out.
[02:52.460 --> 02:58.800]  Not that it has ever actually been attributed to one person, the DeCSS code.
[02:59.020 --> 03:01.960]  It was uploaded by Masters of Reverse Engineering, I believe.
[03:01.960 --> 03:06.240]  And nobody really knows who it is that wrote it, or if it was written by a group of people.
[03:06.960 --> 03:12.140]  I'd like to start with some descriptions as to what your arrest was like.
[03:12.880 --> 03:19.620]  And then we'll talk about the posting of the code, what's happened to various people around the world, what we can look forward to, and we'll take your questions.
[03:20.860 --> 03:21.300]  Okay.
[03:22.620 --> 03:23.060]  Okay.
[03:24.380 --> 03:25.860]  Well, it was...
[03:26.520 --> 03:33.020]  I don't remember which day exactly it was, but it was the first time I had watched TV in two weeks, I think.
[03:35.580 --> 03:38.720]  And it was in the evening, about...
[03:38.720 --> 03:42.280]  Well, not the evening, but about 5pm, I think.
[03:42.540 --> 03:47.120]  I was watching TV, and they came and knocked on the door.
[03:49.840 --> 03:56.700]  And they had a search warrant, and they requested to see the room where I had my computers.
[03:57.740 --> 03:59.520]  So I took them to the basement.
[03:59.520 --> 04:01.200]  I have my room in the basement.
[04:02.720 --> 04:03.360]  I have my room in the basement.
[04:03.360 --> 04:18.240]  And they wanted to take both my computers, my cell phone, a couple of discs, and the charger for my cell phone.
[04:25.850 --> 04:30.150]  And they used about one, one half hours.
[04:31.010 --> 04:32.870]  And then they just took the stuff.
[04:33.410 --> 04:36.450]  And they also wanted me to come to the police station.
[04:36.830 --> 04:38.450]  They wanted to interrogate me.
[04:40.830 --> 04:43.410]  So I went with them.
[04:45.510 --> 04:48.030]  And they interrogated me for about eight hours.
[04:48.830 --> 04:51.790]  It lasted until 2am in the night.
[04:54.450 --> 04:55.550]  And I didn't...
[04:56.070 --> 04:57.910]  They asked me if I wanted to have a lawyer present.
[05:00.450 --> 05:04.590]  But I didn't really need one at the time, because I felt I didn't have anything to hide.
[05:06.130 --> 05:12.570]  So I tried to answer all their questions as polite as possible.
[05:14.630 --> 05:17.270]  And they were even polite enough to buy me a Coke.
[05:22.900 --> 05:26.400]  And they really weren't that technically skilled.
[05:27.440 --> 05:32.180]  One of them had just started working in that police task force.
[05:32.200 --> 05:36.760]  He had just came directly from the university with a computer degree.
[05:38.960 --> 05:41.180]  And she wasn't really that skilled.
[05:41.620 --> 05:43.340]  And didn't know what reverse engineering was.
[05:43.520 --> 05:47.080]  But I don't think I really knew that much more about it.
[05:51.980 --> 05:54.600]  And they really had a lot of stupid questions.
[05:57.320 --> 06:01.220]  Like, when did you meet the other members of MORE?
[06:01.820 --> 06:03.020]  Where did you meet them?
[06:05.020 --> 06:09.000]  Like, how many weeks after you met the first member did you meet the other?
[06:09.500 --> 06:10.980]  Lots of stupid shit.
[06:17.140 --> 06:18.680]  So if they really...
[06:19.460 --> 06:28.560]  If they had sticked to the main points and didn't ask so many stupid questions, they could have probably done the interrogation in about two, three hours.
[06:32.900 --> 06:35.740]  And, well, it wasn't really that bad.
[06:36.720 --> 06:38.520]  They were pretty polite.
[06:39.420 --> 06:43.180]  So I tried to be as polite as possible as well.
[06:47.420 --> 06:48.000]  And...
[06:48.000 --> 06:48.880]  Where do you stand now?
[06:49.560 --> 06:51.320]  Well, the case is still pending.
[06:52.760 --> 07:05.220]  What I heard last time was that we were supposed to reach a decision by late May, I think, on whether to prosecute me or not.
[07:08.350 --> 07:10.650]  And that's about all I heard.
[07:11.070 --> 07:11.830]  I haven't...
[07:11.830 --> 07:15.530]  My cell phone was returned four weeks after the interrogation.
[07:15.950 --> 07:18.410]  I haven't received my computers back yet.
[07:19.010 --> 07:21.730]  I guess they're using them as workstations.
[07:21.730 --> 07:21.770]  Oh, geez.
[07:26.090 --> 07:27.170]  What about the charger?
[07:27.390 --> 07:29.010]  I actually got that back as well.
[07:32.170 --> 07:32.610]  So...
[07:33.410 --> 07:36.430]  I don't really know much more about it right now.
[07:36.630 --> 07:38.290]  Because they're pretty much like the Gestapo.
[07:38.850 --> 07:39.210]  They do...
[07:39.210 --> 07:40.550]  You were not arrested, though.
[07:40.870 --> 07:44.010]  They basically have not charged you with a crime.
[07:44.410 --> 07:49.290]  You were basically both, but they didn't add a search warrant, and they asked you questions.
[07:49.470 --> 07:50.350]  Have you been charged?
[07:50.450 --> 07:51.730]  Yes, yes, I have been charged.
[07:51.970 --> 07:53.050]  Yes, I have been charged.
[07:53.170 --> 07:54.450]  Oh, so you're going to have to go to court.
[07:55.290 --> 07:57.950]  Well, they haven't decided whether to take it to court or not yet.
[07:59.290 --> 08:01.270]  They're going to decide by late May.
[08:05.870 --> 08:07.770]  By late May, they're supposed to decide this?
[08:07.990 --> 08:08.130]  Yes.
[08:08.230 --> 08:09.510]  That's last late May, right?
[08:09.510 --> 08:09.670]  Yes.
[08:09.670 --> 08:10.550]  The one that went by, okay.
[08:10.550 --> 08:12.730]  I just haven't told the decision yet.
[08:13.410 --> 08:14.410]  Yes, apparently.
[08:14.770 --> 08:16.530]  And what is the actual charge?
[08:16.710 --> 08:17.530]  On what law?
[08:17.810 --> 08:18.390]  What grounds?
[08:18.610 --> 08:20.930]  I mean, the DMCA is not valid in Norway.
[08:21.130 --> 08:24.570]  No, it's what they refer to as the hacker paragraph.
[08:25.290 --> 08:26.170]  It's when you...
[08:27.810 --> 08:29.930]  It's when you break into a computer system.
[08:30.630 --> 08:31.070]  What?
[08:32.110 --> 08:33.250]  You did it, did you?
[08:33.450 --> 08:35.230]  No, I didn't, but that's how they interpret it.
[08:37.090 --> 08:38.990]  It's going to be an interesting case, I think.
[08:39.530 --> 08:40.450]  Yes, it should be.
[08:40.550 --> 08:42.210]  I think they can figure it out.
[08:42.290 --> 08:42.630]  Okay.
[08:42.950 --> 08:46.010]  We just ask if you step up to the microphone so people in the back can hear your questions.
[08:46.690 --> 08:55.290]  But basically, I'd like to ask, when they were questioning you, did they say anything about why they were questioning you?
[08:55.390 --> 09:00.510]  Like, who it was that was alleged to have instigated the complaint against you?
[09:00.590 --> 09:02.010]  Did they go into detail about that?
[09:03.130 --> 09:08.330]  No, they didn't really say anything about that, but the papers, I saw the court papers.
[09:08.330 --> 09:11.450]  It was the MPA, Motion Picture Association.
[09:12.290 --> 09:21.510]  And how does the Motion Picture Association of America manage to get a kid in Norway hauled into court and arrested with his dad?
[09:21.510 --> 09:21.530]  Yeah.
[09:21.850 --> 09:22.570]  How the...
[09:22.570 --> 09:23.790]  How the...
[09:24.470 --> 09:26.570]  I'm in this country, I don't understand how that's possible.
[09:27.230 --> 09:32.210]  The MPA is like a parent or sister organization, the MPAA.
[09:33.150 --> 09:33.910]  It's actually separate.
[09:34.150 --> 09:34.970]  It's their international...
[09:34.970 --> 09:36.070]  Oh, so the MPA is the rest of the world.
[09:36.250 --> 09:37.910]  It's the international coons, I think.
[09:37.910 --> 09:38.350]  Uh-huh.
[09:39.190 --> 09:41.010]  Now, they brought your father in, too?
[09:41.570 --> 09:41.990]  Yes.
[09:42.170 --> 09:42.450]  He...
[09:42.450 --> 09:42.970]  What's up with that?
[09:43.190 --> 09:50.910]  He owns the domain, and he pays for the web hosting for the domain I put the program up on.
[09:51.690 --> 09:53.770]  So that makes him a co-conspirator, then?
[09:53.970 --> 09:54.170]  Yeah.
[09:55.690 --> 09:56.090]  Okay.
[10:01.040 --> 10:03.960]  Mackie, maybe you want to detail some of what we did on our website.
[10:04.860 --> 10:16.800]  Yeah, we became involved in the case in November, a little bit after a lot of the main news on the DeCSS hack had already hit various websites.
[10:17.200 --> 10:43.720]  And we really came in when we saw lots of people being intimidated, when we saw that it wasn't just the significance of the hack, but the reaction that some people were having and the way that people were being made to take down the source code and the executables from their websites without what we felt was really a valid threat.
[10:43.920 --> 10:54.840]  You know, people being threatened with legal action in California when they were in the wrong jurisdiction, or just that kind of cease and desist letters, nasty grams.
[10:54.840 --> 11:01.700]  And so, I guess it was November 11th, we posted just an article kind of saying what happened.
[11:02.500 --> 11:08.400]  And the information in that article about like DeCSS itself was almost like an afterthought.
[11:08.620 --> 11:13.820]  The main story was really what was happening to people who posted the code.
[11:14.760 --> 11:21.380]  And in the following day after that, there was even more sites got shut down.
[11:21.380 --> 11:28.040]  I think the main distribution site that a lot of articles have been pointing to, rhythm.cx, got shut down.
[11:28.200 --> 11:35.220]  And we started having people send us, we didn't just mirror sites that had mirrors on them.
[11:35.620 --> 11:44.540]  We asked people to send us, you know, if you just got a cease and desist letter and had to take down your site, send us a copy of what it looked like, you know, right before you had to take it down.
[11:44.540 --> 11:50.220]  Or keep sending us updates if people are still emailing you their mirror lists.
[11:52.140 --> 11:55.500]  And that was pretty much the involvement for a while.
[11:55.700 --> 12:06.600]  It kind of sat there until I guess it was December when the California case was announced, I guess, when they, when the DVD CCA filed charges.
[12:07.720 --> 12:11.180]  And that didn't affect us much, obviously, because...
[12:11.180 --> 12:11.920]  Well, they thought it did.
[12:12.360 --> 12:13.400]  2600 in New York.
[12:13.400 --> 12:19.180]  Yeah, we're in New York and they're in California and they tried to, tried to file charges against us in a local court in California.
[12:19.460 --> 12:20.760]  It just doesn't work out that way.
[12:21.060 --> 12:27.320]  And, yeah, and so there was a hearing, I guess, there was a, there was that hearing during RSA in Santa Clara.
[12:29.240 --> 12:39.140]  And, and then like the day after that hearing, we all went to, went to Lompoc, California, out in Southern California, because Kevin Mitnick was getting released.
[12:39.360 --> 12:41.600]  Well, actually, actually, you're forgetting the part where...
[12:41.600 --> 12:43.220]  Oh, yeah, there's the part where we actually get the complaint, right?
[12:43.220 --> 12:45.920]  Yeah, we got the, we got a complaint from the MPAA.
[12:46.280 --> 12:52.760]  This is, this is kind of interesting story because I was driving around somewhere in New Jersey and, and Mackie called me on the phone to say, hey, guess what?
[12:52.760 --> 13:01.360]  But, you've been named as a, as a defendant in a lawsuit by the MPAA and they're using the DMCA to, to prove their case.
[13:01.580 --> 13:04.320]  You might want to talk about how we got served, that was kind of...
[13:04.320 --> 13:06.820]  Yeah, then they, well, this not, this was on a Friday.
[13:07.180 --> 13:09.400]  I think it was Friday, the 14th of January.
[13:10.240 --> 13:13.540]  I got the call from Mackie, I was about maybe five o'clock PM.
[13:13.740 --> 13:15.400]  I was, I was driving around somewhere in New Jersey.
[13:16.100 --> 13:18.840]  And this is the three day weekend of a holiday weekend.
[13:18.980 --> 13:20.620]  It was a Martin Luther King's birthday.
[13:20.760 --> 13:21.860]  Martin Luther King Day was Monday.
[13:21.860 --> 13:31.020]  So, these guys came to where 2600 is, where, where people weren't home because I was in New Jersey and other people were doing other things.
[13:31.480 --> 13:34.480]  And basically they just kind of threw the papers into the doorway.
[13:34.880 --> 13:37.940]  And apparently that's, that meets the requirements of serving somebody these days.
[13:38.080 --> 13:39.720]  You don't actually have to hand it to them anymore.
[13:39.720 --> 13:42.100]  You just pitch it in the doorway and the dog will get it or whatever.
[13:43.380 --> 13:47.040]  And so I'm out there in New Jersey being served without knowing it.
[13:47.460 --> 13:51.860]  When I get home later that night, I, I, I see the, the actual paperwork.
[13:52.800 --> 13:55.840]  We have until, I think it was 7.
[13:56.100 --> 14:01.000]  No, 7 AM on, on Wednesday, that we had to file a response to that.
[14:01.220 --> 14:02.140]  Monday was a holiday.
[14:02.260 --> 14:06.020]  They left us one day to get legal representation, get all our paperwork in order.
[14:06.020 --> 14:07.320]  There was no way anybody could do that.
[14:07.460 --> 14:10.220]  And that was before we, we had Martin Garbus on our side.
[14:10.600 --> 14:12.840]  But there was still no way that could be done that fast.
[14:13.000 --> 14:13.180]  Right.
[14:13.340 --> 14:18.280]  So at that point, and plus, plus that was the day that Kevin Mitnick was being released in California.
[14:18.920 --> 14:20.220]  So all of us were out in California.
[14:20.620 --> 14:20.980]  The day of the hearing was.
[14:20.980 --> 14:22.860]  Yeah, and, and, and we were told.
[14:23.300 --> 14:24.060]  Well, so what happened was.
[14:24.180 --> 14:25.280]  I'm skipping ahead with the actual.
[14:25.480 --> 14:25.520]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[14:25.600 --> 14:26.120]  Let me get back.
[14:26.220 --> 14:27.520]  This is a four day period there.
[14:27.820 --> 14:28.260]  So, okay.
[14:28.320 --> 14:32.760]  So that was on Friday at the last possible minute that we find out we're being sued.
[14:33.040 --> 14:39.020]  Well, that Tuesday, which is the first business day, that's the hearing in California.
[14:39.320 --> 14:41.240]  And I'm actually based out in California.
[14:41.240 --> 14:44.580]  So I was there and that was during RSA and it was a lot of fun.
[14:44.580 --> 14:53.180]  But the entire, you know, the EFF legal team was completely busy preparing for Tuesday.
[14:53.300 --> 15:05.400]  And of course, the MPA knew that because, you know, they're working very closely with the DVD CCA, which I think is something like a total of one or two people comprise the entire DVD CCA.
[15:05.920 --> 15:15.520]  And, and so yes, we basically had about maybe 20 hours from that Tuesday night to Wednesday morning, try and prepare.
[15:16.180 --> 15:20.640]  Meanwhile, we're on the way out the door Tuesday night to go to LA.
[15:21.020 --> 15:23.220]  And so like, there was just no way.
[15:23.700 --> 15:29.280]  And so while we were in Los Angeles, the hearing took place in New York.
[15:29.620 --> 15:39.580]  And we had one of the, one of the people who were named in the California complaint happened to be a lawyer based in New York.
[15:39.740 --> 15:44.700]  And so he was able to, being a member of the New York bar, was able to represent us and the court.
[15:45.440 --> 15:56.200]  And then we had some representative, Robin Gross and Alan Levy, I believe, were also on the hearing via telephone.
[15:56.720 --> 16:01.240]  And in very short matter, the judge granted the preliminary injunction.
[16:01.840 --> 16:10.380]  And we got a phone call while we're at like some hotel in Lompoc, California, which is the middle of nowhere.
[16:11.460 --> 16:17.600]  And it's where you get informed that we have to take the code off the site, or we'll go to jail.
[16:18.000 --> 16:19.140]  Because we're in contempt of court.
[16:19.140 --> 16:22.340]  This is the day before Kevin's being released and we're planning a celebration.
[16:22.620 --> 16:24.460]  And it's like, and it's federal court too.
[16:24.640 --> 16:27.320]  And we're surrounded by U.S. Marshals because we're about to go to a prison.
[16:27.900 --> 16:30.960]  And they know who we are and they're ready for us.
[16:30.960 --> 16:35.580]  And so, it's like 10 hours before he's going to be released.
[16:35.760 --> 16:36.360]  It's the night before.
[16:36.660 --> 16:39.980]  We have to drive 30 miles to the next town where they have a Kinko's.
[16:40.420 --> 16:45.460]  And of course, I just happened to decide the one time I travel light, don't bring a laptop or anything.
[16:47.080 --> 16:56.340]  We had to like call in and have one of the sysadmins in New York change a password so that we could, and then like change it back again so we could log in from an insecure machine.
[16:57.100 --> 17:14.440]  We had like the injunction faxed to us and we spent all night basically just like typing it up, writing an article, going through and like repping for links to it so that I could back up old copies of just like, you know, just the, of the code.
[17:16.340 --> 17:21.360]  And then change the links to point to the news story about the injunction going into place.
[17:22.160 --> 17:26.140]  And it's very, very trying, very stressful.
[17:26.400 --> 17:29.560]  And then the MPA has the nerve to say that we don't take injunctions seriously.
[17:30.520 --> 17:40.320]  I mean, we spent hours in the Kinko's changing, changing the site around and completely destroying ourselves for the next day when we were trying to be happy about Kevin finally being released.
[17:41.280 --> 17:45.660]  Then they tried to go after us for links and I, I guess we can say they failed on that.
[17:46.100 --> 17:46.800]  So far.
[17:46.920 --> 17:47.240]  So far.
[17:47.520 --> 18:02.260]  The judge actually, so what we did actually after we took it down, after we got back and things got settled down a bit on December 27th, we posted a story just about how you can help, kind of what's going on.
[18:02.500 --> 18:04.460]  And we put out a call for people to mirror it.
[18:04.700 --> 18:10.960]  And really, I mean, there was no way that they could possibly eradicate the DeCSS.
[18:10.960 --> 18:12.820]  I mean, it had been out there for months and months.
[18:13.000 --> 18:21.580]  And the mirroring campaign was really just kind of to call attention to just how many of them were out there and highlight the futility of it all.
[18:22.180 --> 18:26.400]  And also show solidarity, show how, you know, how much support we had.
[18:28.660 --> 18:36.040]  And, and in those, in those weeks, we got, you know, in the first couple of days, you know, it jumped exponentially, just hundreds and hundreds coming in.
[18:39.020 --> 18:47.180]  And, and yeah, so they filed to amend the complaint to try and say, oh, well, you know, they're trafficking it by linking to it.
[18:47.400 --> 18:53.440]  So they tried, and the judge actually, to his credit, had reservations about that and did not grant it.
[18:53.440 --> 18:55.500]  And it was still pending.
[18:55.720 --> 19:06.520]  The motion was still pending till, I guess, earlier this week or last week, when he issued an order to combine the motion to stop linking with the trial itself.
[19:08.520 --> 19:10.140]  So, for now they stand.
[19:10.280 --> 19:14.960]  And we stopped updating it a while ago because it was so busy and kind of made our point.
[19:14.960 --> 19:17.380]  And all you really need is one.
[19:17.600 --> 19:31.900]  You know, it's funny because, like, if our, if our mission here was really to try, and we were worried about preserving it, not just showing how many we had, it was so easy for them to go down the list and just, you know, shoot off cease and desist layers to everybody there.
[19:32.640 --> 19:45.480]  We, there's an article on the site now just kind of where we cataloged some of it and just some of the more egregious examples where they actually got someone fired from their job for posting it, where they, multiple times, people have emailed us saying,
[19:45.620 --> 19:48.300]  you know, well, they, they tried to get me fired from my job.
[19:48.300 --> 19:51.820]  Here's the letter that they sent to my employer saying how I'm a criminal.
[19:54.640 --> 19:58.240]  You know, people, lots of universities, you know, it's a big academic freedom issue.
[19:58.360 --> 20:01.140]  We have all these professors and people in academia on our side.
[20:01.140 --> 20:11.840]  And they're, and they're, like, you know, people are getting called into student judiciary committee hearings and proceedings because of posting it on their personal sites, no less.
[20:13.780 --> 20:22.440]  Yeah, but if we were really interested in not having them instantly shut down all the sites, we could post them one at a time or maybe five at a time.
[20:22.560 --> 20:28.160]  And as soon as that one goes down, take one of the 2,000 submissions and put that one up.
[20:28.160 --> 20:34.040]  And, and we'd have enough within the first week, we would have had enough that they wouldn't have known it was there for, like, a good five years.
[20:34.200 --> 20:37.260]  We could just keep adding a new one every week when one goes down.
[20:38.300 --> 20:39.020]  But, um...
[20:39.020 --> 20:47.540]  Well, if we were really, you know, pirates like they say we are, we were simply not told them and had our little circle of pirates trade wares or whatever they think we do.
[20:48.480 --> 20:50.760]  And, uh, they never would have been the wiser.
[20:50.900 --> 20:57.640]  But by, by posting it up on the site, we're showing the world, hey, you know, people aren't going to stand for this kind of crap of being told that source code is illegal.
[20:58.040 --> 21:11.720]  And I think a lot of people really showed some guts, like a lot of high school kids, a lot of, uh, employees of companies, a lot of, a lot of powerful people, too, just stood up to, uh, to what I consider to be one of the worst forms of oppression, being told what you can and cannot say.
[21:12.460 --> 21:17.320]  And that's why we got involved in the story from the beginning, because we saw, we saw bullies in action.
[21:17.420 --> 21:18.300]  We don't like bullies.
[21:18.540 --> 21:20.820]  And we try to, uh, always call attention to it.
[21:20.880 --> 21:24.020]  And, and the bad part about this is that we've been so caught up defending ourselves.
[21:24.020 --> 21:27.700]  There've been a lot of things that have been going on that we haven't been able to devote enough time to.
[21:28.000 --> 21:34.380]  A lot of other cases also involving DMCA or, you know, the, the use of DMCA against the, uh, the people.
[21:35.440 --> 21:37.820]  And we just haven't been able to devote enough time to it.
[21:37.960 --> 21:43.900]  So we basically, we either need to expand our resources or, uh, or more people need to do this.
[21:44.000 --> 21:46.220]  And I actually, I think the more people doing this, the better.
[21:46.680 --> 21:48.380]  But you have to understand it's, it's a risk.
[21:48.520 --> 21:48.920]  It really is.
[21:49.020 --> 21:57.200]  We've known that this could happen since day one of publishing the magazine, that some company could get really pissed off at us, except we didn't know that it would be this many of them at once.
[21:58.180 --> 22:02.980]  I mean, you just have no idea the size that we, we're dealing with here.
[22:03.080 --> 22:06.780]  This is like, you know, this is like coming up against, I don't know.
[22:07.360 --> 22:11.240]  I don't even think there's any human being that can, you know, Bill Gates is dwarfed by this.
[22:11.240 --> 22:15.580]  You know, this is, this is every company that puts out motion pictures.
[22:15.760 --> 22:16.960]  And they own the media.
[22:17.320 --> 22:17.900]  They do.
[22:18.140 --> 22:19.680]  I mean, CNN is owned by Time Warner.
[22:19.880 --> 22:20.540]  They're suing us.
[22:20.640 --> 22:25.580]  That was, that was one of the bizarre things when we were, um, I mean, the whole situation was surreal while we were in Lompoc.
[22:25.820 --> 22:33.140]  But, um, there was the, the huge press corps that had assembled on this tiny town to, uh, to witness Mitnick being released.
[22:33.340 --> 22:37.920]  And you have at least, you know, like 30 different news crews, satellite trucks, microwave vans.
[22:37.920 --> 22:43.840]  And, um, and, uh, as they were interviewing us and we're like, we're ushering them around town.
[22:44.020 --> 22:45.800]  We have this motorcade following us.
[22:46.360 --> 22:48.920]  And, uh, some of that was probably made into the film.
[22:49.600 --> 22:53.720]  And meanwhile, every time they're interviewing us, we're like, hey, you know, you guys are suing us right now.
[22:55.180 --> 22:57.020]  Every, every press that was reporting there.
[22:57.260 --> 22:59.060]  And there's like the little local paper.
[22:59.700 --> 23:01.940]  I remember this little local paper.
[23:02.220 --> 23:04.020]  There's like mob CNNs there, ABC.
[23:04.480 --> 23:06.820]  And we turned to him and talked to him and said, hey, you're not suing us.
[23:06.820 --> 23:07.680]  I said, I'll talk to you.
[23:08.000 --> 23:10.460]  They were, they were really put out about that.
[23:12.940 --> 23:15.020]  Yeah, but it's, it's massive.
[23:15.360 --> 23:16.720]  It's really incredible.
[23:17.020 --> 23:18.120]  Every broadcast network.
[23:18.380 --> 23:20.200]  I mean, ABC is owned by Disney.
[23:20.380 --> 23:21.080]  Disney suing us.
[23:21.200 --> 23:22.220]  CBS owned by Viacom.
[23:22.340 --> 23:23.240]  Viacom suing us.
[23:23.820 --> 23:27.700]  I don't think the public broadcasting service is suing us yet, but they'll probably get involved at some point.
[23:28.780 --> 23:29.840]  It's, it's scary.
[23:29.840 --> 23:36.840]  And you know, it's, it really kind of makes you worry about everything that happens because these people are so massively powerful.
[23:37.040 --> 23:39.000]  I had to go through a deposition a couple of weeks ago.
[23:39.120 --> 23:41.900]  And that's basically where you sit in front of a hostile lawyer.
[23:43.360 --> 23:43.760]  Seriously.
[23:43.900 --> 23:47.700]  A hostile lawyer who stares at you for about eight hours a day and asks you pointed questions.
[23:48.160 --> 23:57.100]  And I actually had two of these lawyers ask me pointed questions, many of them revolving around the integrity of 2600 and how, how we exist only to promote crime and things like that.
[23:57.240 --> 24:05.220]  And, you know, I had to answer that crap for, for a good long time and try to explain it to them without success, what the purpose of free information is.
[24:05.840 --> 24:15.100]  Um, and on my way up to see these people over the course of two days, um, I had to go up to the 25th floor of, of their building, which is right in Times Square.
[24:15.100 --> 24:18.480]  Prospero Rose, it's one of the biggest law firms in, in the galaxy.
[24:19.020 --> 24:27.880]  Um, and the, the elevator stopped and every single one of those 25 floors, every single one of those 25 floors had a big Prospero Rose thing, you know, on the wall.
[24:28.100 --> 24:33.860]  They had all the floors in the building and all these lawyers in there, hundreds, thousands of them.
[24:34.120 --> 24:43.300]  And a good number of them just focusing their attention against us, the hacker quarterly, you know, little zine that publishes, you know, to a few thousand people.
[24:43.300 --> 24:47.280]  And it's like, how did we become the enemy of, of Hollywood?
[24:47.660 --> 24:48.640]  I, I don't know.
[24:49.140 --> 24:57.320]  And, and, you know, watching Jack Valenti testify in, in our deposition where we asked him pointed questions, which he knew the answer to none of.
[24:59.040 --> 25:09.980]  It's, it's awfully weird because this is the same Jack Valenti allegedly that, that wrote articles in newspapers and press releases that, that pretty much pointed me out by name, saying that I was the ringleader of a bunch of pirates.
[25:09.980 --> 25:14.280]  And then when asked on the stand, who is Emmanuel Goldstein, he has no idea.
[25:14.640 --> 25:17.840]  He did successfully recognize his own picture though.
[25:19.660 --> 25:20.880]  To his credit.
[25:25.400 --> 25:28.860]  So, uh, we're dealing with some unknown quantities here.
[25:30.120 --> 25:35.860]  Um, we should, we should talk more to, to, to, to Jan about, uh, the situation in Norway.
[25:35.860 --> 25:38.500]  What the, what, how did the media cover it over there?
[25:39.560 --> 25:41.200]  What did the media cover it over there?
[25:41.540 --> 25:43.620]  Yeah, they covered it a lot.
[25:45.420 --> 25:49.460]  It was, uh, pretty much be asked just like here in the U.S.
[25:50.000 --> 25:50.680]  in the beginning.
[25:50.680 --> 25:55.100]  Uh, after a while they started getting some things right.
[25:55.500 --> 26:02.480]  But, uh, they always used, uh, I will refer, or used, uh, the term hacker as something criminal.
[26:03.920 --> 26:10.040]  So, um, it's, it's been a while since they've mentioned it in the news now.
[26:10.040 --> 26:14.400]  But, uh, they were, uh,
[26:18.230 --> 26:20.090]  they weren't very much willing to get it right.
[26:20.530 --> 26:28.790]  As I, someone mentioned earlier, they usually have a, have an image of how they want to present the story before they start asking questions.
[26:29.970 --> 26:32.390]  What, what kind of an effect has this had on your life?
[26:32.590 --> 26:34.790]  You, your father, the whole family?
[26:35.350 --> 26:36.770]  Um, not much really.
[26:36.990 --> 26:37.170]  Really?
[26:37.170 --> 26:38.210]  It's been pretty much the same.
[26:39.270 --> 26:42.270]  Except, uh, old, uh, old news, uh, people following me.
[26:42.550 --> 26:43.810]  Should we take questions?
[26:45.090 --> 26:47.170]  Yeah, if anybody has questions, please come up to the microphone.
[26:47.390 --> 26:49.170]  Is there anything on, uh, DeCSS?
[26:49.310 --> 26:49.930]  Microphone's over there.
[26:51.830 --> 26:52.290]  Right there.
[26:52.670 --> 26:53.230]  Right next to it.
[26:53.290 --> 26:53.430]  Go ahead.
[26:53.990 --> 27:00.690]  Um, how do you think that the, uh, other campaigns have started, like the, like the other DeCSS, uh, kind of style sheet?
[27:00.890 --> 27:02.270]  Anti-style sheets?
[27:02.390 --> 27:07.150]  Yeah, and the, uh, the guy in the university that got raked over the coals because he was mirroring that on his website?
[27:07.150 --> 27:07.890]  We've, um...
[27:07.890 --> 27:11.930]  Just to clarify, there are some people that have been posting DeCSS, but it's not really DeCSS.
[27:12.050 --> 27:13.110]  It just has the file name.
[27:13.390 --> 27:15.970]  And they've actually gotten letters from the MPAA.
[27:17.510 --> 27:22.290]  So apparently if you have any file on your website called DeCSS, the MPAA is going to be sending you a letter.
[27:22.590 --> 27:22.730]  Yeah.
[27:23.130 --> 27:25.930]  Just for DeCSS, of course, being cascading style sheets.
[27:26.810 --> 27:28.650]  And, uh, and it removed that.
[27:28.650 --> 27:36.950]  I know of, uh, I think there's someone who, who just, uh, posted just random, random garbage in a file called it DeCSS.
[27:36.990 --> 27:38.050]  It's not even the right size.
[27:38.290 --> 27:39.410]  And he got a letter.
[27:40.050 --> 27:43.150]  Everybody should just rename it, like, happybunny.zip or something.
[27:43.150 --> 27:50.390]  Well, the effect that it's had, I mean, some of it's, I mean, I hope, I assume they've wasted, well, we know they've wasted lots of time on that.
[27:50.690 --> 27:55.370]  Some of it, you know, we have to every now and then verify mirrors before we put them up on that thing.
[27:55.470 --> 27:56.770]  That's what took so long.
[27:56.910 --> 27:58.110]  It's like, it's a nice little web form.
[27:58.230 --> 28:00.790]  People, I think a lot of times expected that it would just be automatic.
[28:01.350 --> 28:04.070]  But we wanted to be reasonably careful.
[28:04.170 --> 28:07.750]  I mean, we couldn't really filter all of them, but we wanted to at least make sure the file's there.
[28:07.750 --> 28:09.730]  So we're not putting up, you know, bad links.
[28:11.830 --> 28:15.330]  And that made it harder, because you'd find it and say, oh, wow, this site's cool.
[28:15.450 --> 28:17.510]  This guy, you know, he's saying all these good things.
[28:17.610 --> 28:24.430]  You know, it's not like one of the, like, awful, like, you know, some 12-year-old somewhere just ranting and cursing.
[28:24.570 --> 28:26.150]  And we're like, yeah, this guy's intelligent.
[28:26.670 --> 28:29.450]  Oh, it's not even the right file that we couldn't put up.
[28:29.510 --> 28:30.810]  So we wasted some time, too.
[28:31.030 --> 28:33.570]  But I thought it was pretty funny.
[28:35.510 --> 28:39.530]  Well, I think everybody here really appreciates the lengths that you guys are going through for all of this.
[28:39.730 --> 28:40.890]  You guys are really standing up.
[28:41.010 --> 28:42.430]  And I think it's fantastic.
[28:43.170 --> 28:43.410]  Thank you.
[28:49.480 --> 28:51.720]  I'm really afraid of what would happen if we backed down.
[28:51.880 --> 28:52.080]  Yes.
[28:52.580 --> 28:53.620]  That's actually my question.
[28:53.620 --> 28:54.960]  You've come too far for us to do that.
[28:55.060 --> 28:58.620]  Is how far are you guys willing to go for this?
[28:58.720 --> 29:02.200]  And on a side note, it's actually pronounced Lompoc, not Lompoc.
[29:02.200 --> 29:02.860]  I was born there.
[29:03.820 --> 29:05.120]  So every time you said Lompoc, I'm cringing.
[29:05.460 --> 29:05.580]  My condolences.
[29:06.120 --> 29:09.420]  Yeah, it's a shithole, really.
[29:11.240 --> 29:12.600]  It doesn't even have a Kinko's.
[29:13.160 --> 29:13.800]  No kidding.
[29:14.160 --> 29:16.600]  Hey, but it does have Vandenberg Missile Base, so that's pretty cool.
[29:16.820 --> 29:17.100]  That's true.
[29:17.500 --> 29:19.680]  But that's my question, is how far are you guys really willing to go?
[29:19.740 --> 29:21.700]  Well, we obey injunctions.
[29:21.920 --> 29:24.860]  When injunctions are filed against us, we obey them.
[29:24.860 --> 29:30.320]  And we're going to fight this until it's ruled illegal to...
[29:30.860 --> 29:47.460]  Well, basically, the way we were going about the link issue, when it was a possibility that links were going to be outlawed, when an injunction would be issued against us saying we can't have the links to other DeCSS sites, our response to that would have been to simply not make them links,
[29:47.520 --> 29:48.780]  to simply make them a list.
[29:48.780 --> 29:59.800]  A list of sites, not a link, although I know some word processors and HTML automatically makes it into a link, but, you know, that's not our problem.
[30:00.480 --> 30:04.840]  So, then they would have to come after us and say, you can't list, you can't list sites.
[30:05.200 --> 30:09.440]  So, okay, then we take the list down, and then we put it into a conversational forum and talk about it.
[30:09.640 --> 30:11.500]  Then they say, no, you can't even talk about it.
[30:11.560 --> 30:15.580]  So, we're going to push them all the way to the edge, where they say, we can't even think about this.
[30:16.620 --> 30:17.520]  And that's when we'll start.
[30:24.340 --> 30:31.640]  That was another funny thing about linking is, you know, you look at the reply, the comments on the Library of Congress site.
[30:31.640 --> 30:37.440]  You know, they had a question period where you could submit, you know, what you think exemption should be made to the DMCA.
[30:37.980 --> 30:42.360]  And they're all posted on the Library of Congress's website in PDF form.
[30:42.720 --> 30:46.540]  And a lot of people included URLs.
[30:47.460 --> 30:50.940]  And Adobe Acrobat actually, you know, recognizes that and highlights it.
[30:50.980 --> 30:51.900]  You can click it as a link.
[30:52.320 --> 30:56.760]  Also, numerous plaintiffs run search engines.
[30:56.780 --> 30:59.500]  For instance, Infoseek is owned by Disney.
[31:00.060 --> 31:04.960]  There are lots of links to DeCSS on Infoseek.
[31:09.420 --> 31:15.140]  I think everybody in the room knows that this entire case is about a lot more than just DeCSS.
[31:15.420 --> 31:21.520]  I wonder if you could talk about, with regards to technology in general, what is it you're hoping to accomplish with this case?
[31:26.200 --> 31:37.620]  Well, I think a large part of it is not losing existing freedoms just due to new technology.
[31:39.020 --> 31:47.480]  You know, with DVDs, of course, in the immediate case, it's rather obvious that there's fair use limitations and all those things.
[31:47.480 --> 31:59.470]  But, I mean, from the perspective that we got involved in this as a free speech issue, it's definitely, I mean, it's just multifaceted.
[32:00.120 --> 32:03.580]  Because you have the speech of posting source code.
[32:03.580 --> 32:22.180]  You also have just the freedom in general that isn't even necessarily technologically related of not bowing to, not kowtowing to baseless cease and desist letters and censorship and taking things down when you really don't have to because you don't want the headache.
[32:22.180 --> 32:33.500]  And I think when we posted it, we're really trying to stand up for people who are in other countries who are getting letters from the MPAA.
[32:34.590 --> 32:39.240]  And just being like, gee, I know I'm completely right, but I can't do anything about it.
[32:40.660 --> 32:56.360]  And we kind of really felt it was an obligation that for all the preaching we've done and all the rhetoric that if we don't seize an opportunity like that to help, it's all worthless and there really wasn't any other option.
[32:56.360 --> 32:57.700]  That's exactly it.
[32:58.820 --> 33:04.640]  We do have an obligation because a lot of people out there, they make a stand and we see this all the time.
[33:04.820 --> 33:13.290]  We see some kid in high school make a stand by doing something simple like putting out his own newsletter or having a website that's critical of his school or, you know, all kinds of things.
[33:13.620 --> 33:16.640]  And they get completely destroyed by the authorities.
[33:16.840 --> 33:19.680]  They get, you know, thrown out of school, penalized in various ways.
[33:20.710 --> 33:22.560]  And how much further can they go?
[33:22.960 --> 33:25.440]  You know, basically a lot of people have to give up.
[33:25.440 --> 33:26.980]  And we understand that.
[33:27.460 --> 33:31.720]  We've put ourselves in a position where we challenge certain injustices.
[33:31.940 --> 33:36.340]  We publish information and we have to fight for that right.
[33:36.460 --> 33:39.000]  We can't just continue doing it and expect it always to be there.
[33:39.080 --> 33:41.600]  There are going to be those people that try to take that right away from us.
[33:42.000 --> 33:51.700]  And so it's our obligation to stay there, you know, and say we're going to continue doing this and you're going to have to change the Constitution, change the laws to make it illegal for us to do what we do.
[33:51.880 --> 33:54.320]  And that's the obligation that we take very seriously.
[33:55.810 --> 33:58.790]  So hopefully that's, you know, we'll be somewhat successful with that.
[33:59.720 --> 34:00.340]  Next question.
[34:00.600 --> 34:01.100]  Hey, Jan.
[34:01.200 --> 34:03.980]  Because of your arrest, you've become kind of the poster boy for all of this.
[34:04.600 --> 34:11.720]  I wanted to see, you know, first of all, to what extent did you or what was your role in development of DeCSS?
[34:12.480 --> 34:15.060]  You know, how much of a role did you have in that?
[34:15.160 --> 34:16.900]  And also, do you regret it now?
[34:19.480 --> 34:25.320]  Well, the actual reverse engineering, it was done by the German member of Moore.
[34:25.820 --> 34:27.620]  His identity is unknown.
[34:28.240 --> 34:29.980]  Also to me, I don't know who he is.
[34:31.420 --> 34:39.360]  He did the actual reverse engineering and I used his work to create the actual application.
[34:39.980 --> 34:43.140]  I also was responsible for distributing it.
[34:44.420 --> 34:48.120]  And even after what has happened, I think I would still have done the same.
[34:49.240 --> 34:53.820]  I'm not in such a bad situation as you are here in the US.
[34:55.420 --> 34:57.460]  Yes, but you're in the U.S. now.
[34:58.200 --> 34:58.720]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[35:00.160 --> 35:01.080]  Customs is waiting.
[35:01.380 --> 35:17.880]  But even if the maximum penalty for the charge I'm facing, that's two to three years, the district attorney has said that I am probably at most just facing a fine.
[35:18.760 --> 35:23.200]  And in Norway, fines are based on income the previous year.
[35:23.680 --> 35:26.120]  And I didn't have any income last year, so...
[35:35.850 --> 35:37.490]  The secret is to be poor.
[35:38.330 --> 35:38.990]  Remember that.
[35:41.370 --> 35:44.510]  My question is, this is clearly a free speech issue.
[35:44.690 --> 35:48.750]  And even though you guys are the defendants, it's eventually going to affect all of us.
[35:49.770 --> 35:57.450]  But, you know, I think the last person who wrote about how many media companies owned and controlled all of the media in the world, was Noam Chomsky, and he said something like 44.
[35:57.630 --> 35:59.950]  And since then there have been, I don't know how many mergers.
[36:00.310 --> 36:06.450]  So the question is, essentially, you're up against these 44 companies that control all of the sources of media in the world.
[36:06.770 --> 36:10.370]  How do you advise people like us, the little people, to fight that?
[36:10.550 --> 36:13.190]  Well, I think our keynote speaker says it best.
[36:13.290 --> 36:15.290]  Joe will be offered when he says, become the media.
[36:15.710 --> 36:16.850]  Publish your own zine.
[36:17.370 --> 36:18.770]  Make your own radio station.
[36:19.230 --> 36:20.630]  Do what they're not doing.
[36:21.030 --> 36:22.730]  And get the word out however you can.
[36:22.730 --> 36:25.970]  There's no reason why there can't be more magazines like what we do.
[36:26.190 --> 36:27.270]  There's plenty of information out there.
[36:27.410 --> 36:28.770]  There are plenty of things to talk about.
[36:29.650 --> 36:32.790]  And, believe me, there's strength in numbers when it comes to freedom of speech.
[36:33.210 --> 36:35.750]  So, by all means, become the media.
[36:42.550 --> 36:49.090]  I want to ask how it became, you know, MPAA versus Emmanuel Goldstein rather than 2600.
[36:49.340 --> 36:51.300]  I mean, it's not Michael Eisner versus Emmanuel Goldstein.
[36:51.320 --> 36:51.590]  Yeah, I know.
[36:51.690 --> 36:52.230]  It's weird, isn't it?
[36:52.320 --> 36:57.040]  You know, I always thought that being a corporation, that I would be shielded as an individual.
[36:57.040 --> 36:59.760]  But, apparently, it only works that way if you're a big corporation.
[36:59.980 --> 37:03.920]  Like, for instance, if you sue Microsoft, you're not going to get Bill Gates' assets.
[37:04.130 --> 37:08.760]  But, apparently, if 2600 is sued, then, you know, my house goes up to the MPAA.
[37:09.780 --> 37:10.460]  It's fucked up.
[37:10.500 --> 37:11.000]  What can I say?
[37:12.760 --> 37:13.170]  Go ahead.
[37:13.320 --> 37:14.020]  I'm sorry.
[37:14.170 --> 37:15.460]  Again, I'm not a techie.
[37:15.670 --> 37:18.210]  So, in a sense, it's an advantage.
[37:18.380 --> 37:19.540]  There's a room full of techies.
[37:19.690 --> 37:20.820]  I'm not a techie.
[37:20.820 --> 37:25.570]  I don't understand the issues as well as many people do in this audience.
[37:25.880 --> 37:28.260]  But I would pose two questions to you.
[37:28.340 --> 37:32.960]  The first is, do you think it was wise to antagonize...
[37:32.960 --> 37:43.800]  Or do you think it was wise to link your website in view of the fact that you had a judge who may not have been fully familiar with the issues?
[37:43.800 --> 37:48.130]  And did you not risk antagonizing the judge by doing that?
[37:49.300 --> 37:53.170]  Keeping in mind, the people around here are saying, what should we do?
[37:53.630 --> 37:57.070]  Ultimately, these issues are won or lost in court.
[37:57.280 --> 38:00.000]  It's going to be won or lost in court.
[38:00.360 --> 38:06.690]  Whether it is a freedom of speech issue or whether it's a copyright issue is not at all clear in my mind.
[38:06.690 --> 38:12.630]  But it's going to be the judge's decisions, whether it goes up to the Supreme Court or not.
[38:12.760 --> 38:13.880]  Whether you win or lose.
[38:14.040 --> 38:19.590]  Whether the people in this room win or lose their right to do things that you think they have the right to do.
[38:19.730 --> 38:24.960]  Was it wise to risk antagonizing the judge by linking the website?
[38:24.960 --> 38:35.020]  And secondly, in listening to your attorneys, both the male attorney seemed elegant and the female attorney seemed elegant.
[38:35.420 --> 38:41.920]  But are they able to articulate the issues to a non-technical judge?
[38:41.920 --> 38:50.380]  To a judge who doesn't, who is not a techie, who has to come away and make a decision regarding a technical issue, technical things.
[38:50.380 --> 38:56.400]  Are they going to put... in listening to their arguments, I'm not at all convinced.
[38:56.590 --> 39:03.820]  I'm not sure whether this is an issue of freedom of speech versus another issue.
[39:04.550 --> 39:09.320]  Is the judge going to be clear at the end of the day with them arguing your case?
[39:09.360 --> 39:11.090]  Well, that's what we are trying to do.
[39:11.170 --> 39:13.920]  That's the toughest part of the case, obviously, is trying to make it understandable.
[39:14.690 --> 39:15.840]  There's a flip side to that.
[39:16.690 --> 39:19.690]  The plaintiffs also have to make it understandable.
[39:19.690 --> 39:22.980]  And a lot of what they say is utter nonsense, and the judge can see that.
[39:23.880 --> 39:30.050]  Your first question, though, I find the worst type of censorship to be self-censorship.
[39:30.050 --> 39:37.040]  And that's something that we have to be very careful of to say, well, if we do this, it might result in this, so we're not going to say it at all.
[39:37.500 --> 39:39.420]  We had to put up links.
[39:39.630 --> 39:40.700]  That was the obvious...
[39:44.860 --> 39:50.710]  If we didn't put up links, then all of a sudden, it's just we're closing the door on the whole case.
[39:51.050 --> 39:54.630]  And we're basically just agreeing not to talk about something anymore.
[39:54.900 --> 39:55.590]  Links are vital.
[39:55.690 --> 39:58.630]  Links are how you point to your source of information.
[39:58.630 --> 39:59.960]  That's what the web is all about.
[40:00.340 --> 40:07.400]  And to just say, to agree before it's decided upon that, yeah, links would be considered to be illegal in a case like this.
[40:07.400 --> 40:09.880]  No, we want the judge to tell us links are illegal.
[40:10.650 --> 40:12.380]  And he has not done that, to his credit.
[40:12.500 --> 40:15.230]  To his credit, he has said that he's not going to rule on that.
[40:15.300 --> 40:16.380]  That's part of the trial itself.
[40:16.980 --> 40:23.380]  Now, another thing, and I know there's been criticism of the judge, but I do think that he does understand a few very basic premises.
[40:24.470 --> 40:28.460]  The MPAA, after the deposition I gave a couple of weeks ago, wanted our computer.
[40:28.730 --> 40:31.000]  They wanted to go to 2600.com and analyze it.
[40:31.050 --> 40:31.820]  Now, here's the thing.
[40:32.130 --> 40:35.840]  They asked if I had ever exchanged email with Jon Johansen over there.
[40:36.830 --> 40:40.710]  And I said, yeah, I think I sent him a piece of mail a few months ago.
[40:41.110 --> 40:43.090]  And it was to ask him to be on my radio show.
[40:43.190 --> 40:43.610]  Do you remember that?
[40:43.710 --> 40:44.590]  I asked you to be on the radio show.
[40:44.690 --> 40:47.170]  And you said you couldn't make it that time, but we tried another time.
[40:47.230 --> 40:47.630]  That was it.
[40:48.090 --> 40:48.400]  All right.
[40:48.590 --> 40:50.710]  And they asked, well, do you have that piece of email?
[40:50.940 --> 40:55.400]  And I go, no, I erased it after the communication was concluded.
[40:55.400 --> 40:56.420]  I don't save my mail.
[40:57.050 --> 40:59.760]  And they said, well, can you retrieve the erased data?
[41:00.760 --> 41:02.320]  And I said, well, you know, this isn't the White House.
[41:02.380 --> 41:03.960]  You can't just get something back like that.
[41:05.500 --> 41:06.420]  It's a lot different.
[41:06.550 --> 41:07.210]  It's a Unix system.
[41:07.260 --> 41:08.900]  It's really not that easy to do.
[41:09.050 --> 41:09.610]  It was months ago.
[41:09.820 --> 41:13.190]  Plus, you know, we also replaced that drive a couple of months earlier.
[41:13.420 --> 41:14.610]  So you really couldn't get it.
[41:14.820 --> 41:18.360]  They wanted to go send an expert to our place.
[41:18.690 --> 41:20.070]  They said, let us try.
[41:21.050 --> 41:27.710]  And look through our hard drive at deleted data in the hopes of finding one email message from last year.
[41:28.150 --> 41:28.710]  All right.
[41:28.900 --> 41:34.150]  And now, keep in mind, and this is something I feel very strongly about, this is a system that's used by dozens of people.
[41:34.460 --> 41:37.540]  Or, you know, affiliates, writers, friends, whatever.
[41:37.980 --> 41:42.460]  And if you erase a file, there's no indication who that file belongs to.
[41:42.920 --> 41:50.940]  I wasn't going to have them go out there looking through files of, you know, erased data that might not pertain to this case at all.
[41:50.940 --> 41:52.820]  It might be private email for other people.
[41:53.090 --> 41:58.710]  So that was something that I felt very strongly about, extremely strongly about, that we were just in no way going to allow this to happen.
[41:58.860 --> 42:00.110]  This is the kind of thing you go to jail over.
[42:00.760 --> 42:06.230]  And the judge wisely said, if it's a multi-user system, no, you can't do that.
[42:06.750 --> 42:07.980]  And ruled against them.
[42:08.110 --> 42:10.170]  And that was just as recently as last week.
[42:10.380 --> 42:12.110]  I don't know what the ruling has gone through.
[42:12.230 --> 42:19.550]  What happened is the judge, my understanding at least, is that he said, if it's true what you're saying, that's a multi-user system, then there are these issues.
[42:19.550 --> 42:32.670]  And so, right now actually we're in a dialogue trying to satisfy that, you know, satisfy their belief that, yeah, it is indeed a multi-user system.
[42:32.880 --> 42:36.780]  And that's where a lot of sort of the technological barriers and things are...
[42:36.780 --> 42:43.710]  I mean, it's easy to... most of us are at all familiar with computers or any Unix operating system to verify that.
[42:44.110 --> 42:44.500]  Oh, yeah.
[42:44.670 --> 42:44.860]  Oh, yeah.
[42:46.170 --> 42:55.170]  They wanted to send somebody out to our place to actually look at the computer, to look at the computer to verify, just by sight, that it was a multi-user machine.
[42:59.420 --> 43:01.380]  Yes, they wanted to physically identify it.
[43:01.460 --> 43:11.690]  I would like to know exactly what is at stake for the other side if, I'm sorry, I mean when you win the case, how will that change the industry, the computer and the video industry?
[43:13.210 --> 43:17.040]  Well, you know, they're not going to lose their precious copyrights, I'll tell you that right now.
[43:17.230 --> 43:20.380]  Things will pretty much go the way they've gone for them in the past.
[43:20.630 --> 43:25.210]  They're not going to... basically they just won't get new control of technology.
[43:25.210 --> 43:33.070]  They won't be able to dictate how you view something and when you can view it and what platforms you can use and things like that.
[43:33.070 --> 43:40.150]  But they'll continue to have a stranglehold on the industry, you know, as far as creativity, music, that kind of thing.
[43:40.300 --> 43:41.440]  So they shouldn't really be that upset.
[43:42.300 --> 43:42.780]  Yeah.
[43:46.320 --> 43:53.760]  Someone mentioned free speech before and instigating and inciting the judge by your actions.
[43:54.720 --> 44:13.640]  And I wanted to say that, you know, even though 52 of the largest 100 worldwide economies or corporations instead of countries, here in America the power rests with the people and not with the corporations.
[44:13.640 --> 44:18.960]  Even though corporations have been artificially designated as people, they're not people.
[44:18.960 --> 44:21.360]  And they don't have the power that people have.
[44:22.100 --> 44:31.980]  And so, excuse me, remedies for situations like this don't rest in judicial made law.
[44:32.260 --> 44:38.160]  They rest in the legislatures of the state and the federal legislature and the Congress and the Senate.
[44:38.540 --> 44:43.540]  And our citizens, us as citizens voting.
[44:44.060 --> 44:50.180]  And so, it's very important not to think like the corporations own us.
[44:50.460 --> 44:51.760]  Because they don't own us.
[44:51.940 --> 44:54.360]  They would like us to think that they own us.
[44:54.560 --> 44:57.040]  And that we have a choice of Coke or Pepsi.
[44:57.900 --> 44:58.880]  But we don't.
[44:59.000 --> 45:01.100]  I mean, we can choose not to do any of that.
[45:01.540 --> 45:04.880]  And also, excuse me, I have a cold.
[45:07.800 --> 45:10.180]  And I've also forgotten exactly what I was going to say.
[45:14.720 --> 45:16.280]  Oh, hey, look at that.
[45:16.460 --> 45:16.580]  Sorry.
[45:20.200 --> 45:24.280]  The important thing facing DeCSS is the access control issues.
[45:24.480 --> 45:25.700]  Like you mentioned before.
[45:26.400 --> 45:28.120]  And it's not about piracy.
[45:28.260 --> 45:29.100]  It's not about copying.
[45:31.280 --> 45:33.940]  Shit, I totally forgot what I meant to say.
[45:35.940 --> 45:42.360]  Well, let me just say that the corporations, you're right, they don't own the people unless we let them.
[45:42.560 --> 45:43.100]  That's right.
[45:43.280 --> 45:46.760]  And a lot of people buy into the crap that's spewed out.
[45:46.920 --> 45:48.920]  And they forget the power they have as individuals.
[45:49.210 --> 45:50.480]  Remember, we're just individuals.
[45:50.480 --> 45:59.400]  And if we can make these companies, these corporations, this upset at us just by exercising individual rights, hell, we must be doing something right.
[45:59.920 --> 46:04.680]  That's what individuals are for, to speak their minds, spread information.
[46:05.320 --> 46:08.100]  And you can't let people squash that.
[46:08.100 --> 46:17.480]  You reminded me of what I was going to say, which was that I don't particularly like politics.
[46:17.960 --> 46:27.880]  But cases like this bring the kind of reverse engineering, computer security, hacking, finding out how technology works.
[46:27.880 --> 46:44.840]  And ultimately, like the principles behind science, which is to find out how the universe works, into question, that you can't talk about how the next version of, you know, the secure digital music initiative is going to work.
[46:45.160 --> 46:51.680]  Because, you know, and now in Maryland, with the UCITA, you can't talk about bad encryption.
[46:51.860 --> 46:55.400]  You can't even... and... I'm just going to shut up.
[46:56.230 --> 46:57.960]  We all have to shut up, actually, because we're out of time.
[46:58.300 --> 46:58.620]  Sorry.
[46:59.120 --> 47:00.210]  Any closing words for you guys?
[47:01.180 --> 47:01.500]  No.
[47:02.060 --> 47:02.380]  Okay.
[47:02.520 --> 47:02.960]  Thanks for coming.