[00:09.120 --> 00:18.900]  Hello and welcome to what hopefully will be not too depressing of a panel discussion on the law.
[00:19.320 --> 00:31.480]  In particular, we're going to be talking about the PATRIOT Act, your rights and what are left of them, and how best to protect yourself from the man when he comes inevitably knocking at you.
[00:31.560 --> 00:34.500]  My name is Smokey.
[00:34.760 --> 00:43.720]  I am with the New York City's People's Law Collective, as is my panel associate here.
[00:44.180 --> 00:59.320]  We are the first standing anarchist legal collective made up of non-lawyers to provide legal aid and help to activists and anarchists in need.
[00:59.320 --> 01:11.280]  We started slightly before the Republican National Convention in Philadelphia, and we've been working in New York since that time.
[01:11.440 --> 01:20.740]  We've worked in Philadelphia, Washington, D.C., Quebec City, and many of the other large anti-globalization protests.
[01:20.740 --> 01:39.180]  In addition, we've done a variety of community project works with more gardens, juveniles, adults with mental illness, and things like that, and now your group on knowing your rights and how to protect yourself from the man.
[01:40.980 --> 01:43.640]  Today's discussion is going to be broken into a few parts.
[01:43.940 --> 01:53.280]  We're going to start with the basic, know your rights, what rights you have, and how to utilize them most effectively in dealing with law enforcement.
[01:53.280 --> 01:55.480]  And then we'll take some quick questions.
[01:55.800 --> 02:01.280]  And then we'll go into warrants, which are probably most valuable for this group here.
[02:01.960 --> 02:06.340]  And then Tim is going to talk about the U.S.
[02:06.520 --> 02:09.020]  PATRIOT Act, which has been in the news a lot.
[02:09.180 --> 02:10.820]  It's fairly misunderstood.
[02:12.100 --> 02:15.940]  Some new changes in the guidelines of law enforcement and law.
[02:15.940 --> 02:34.300]  And then I will do a very brief discussion on the New York City People's Law Collective's involvement in the Raisetofist.com case, which was a case involving a person with a computer website that was picked up by the feds.
[02:34.360 --> 02:38.800]  Actually, the first person arrested where they were trying to use some of the U.S.
[02:38.920 --> 02:41.080]  PATRIOT Act laws.
[02:42.620 --> 02:47.480]  So we're going to start with a quick know your rights.
[02:48.480 --> 02:53.500]  The thing to remember is that these are rights you have wherever you are.
[02:53.820 --> 02:57.780]  These are rights that you can invoke and should invoke.
[02:59.060 --> 03:02.960]  And they are things that are fairly basic.
[03:03.160 --> 03:05.480]  And the good thing is you don't need to be a lawyer to know them.
[03:05.680 --> 03:06.880]  They're relatively easy.
[03:08.060 --> 03:17.800]  There is, of course, a distinction between what are your rights and what will be respected by whatever law enforcement agency is approaching you.
[03:18.420 --> 03:24.460]  And you'll have to make a determination how far to push your rights based on the reality of the situation.
[03:25.020 --> 03:36.980]  Obviously, if I am in an alley and there's three police officers demanding ID, even though I don't have a legal responsibility to produce ID, I may indeed do it.
[03:38.000 --> 03:40.680]  So you need to take that into consideration.
[03:41.600 --> 03:46.780]  If a cop approaches you and asks you for information or ID, you do not have to give it.
[03:46.780 --> 03:55.800]  The exception to that, of course, is if you're driving, which is not considered a right, but it's considered a privilege and you have to give some ID.
[03:56.140 --> 04:06.920]  The important thing to remember is often FBI, CIA, NSA agents, things like that, will claim that those rights don't apply to them.
[04:06.920 --> 04:14.180]  That they're a special kind of law enforcement or now you have Homeland Security or whatever group.
[04:14.440 --> 04:15.280]  It doesn't matter.
[04:15.420 --> 04:17.880]  It applies to all law enforcement agencies.
[04:18.180 --> 04:25.900]  You're never required to give your ID or information unless you are driving.
[04:27.840 --> 04:36.200]  If a cop continues after he asks for your ID and continues to hassle you, the thing you want to ask is, am I free to go?
[04:38.700 --> 04:41.860]  If the cop says yes, then go away.
[04:42.060 --> 04:43.360]  Count yourself lucky.
[04:44.500 --> 04:50.320]  If the cop says no, you're not free to go, then in fact you're not.
[04:53.340 --> 05:00.460]  Yeah, if you're in a passenger car, you're not required to show ID.
[05:01.780 --> 05:02.380]  Yes.
[05:03.160 --> 05:04.760]  Does that include cars?
[05:06.240 --> 05:10.620]  Yeah, any kind of motor vehicle, you would have to present some kind of ID.
[05:11.060 --> 05:13.840]  And now even boats, they could ask you for ID.
[05:14.840 --> 05:16.700]  And don't even think about flight school.
[05:20.440 --> 05:30.060]  Often what will happen is a cop will stop you on the street, especially if you're going to a protest or you're coming from a place that they deem suspicious.
[05:30.060 --> 05:35.620]  They'll say, excuse me, Tim, or if you've given them a name or something.
[05:36.500 --> 05:37.400]  What's in your bag?
[05:38.460 --> 05:43.580]  You might say nothing or you may say, you know, I don't want to say anything to you, which is your right.
[05:43.720 --> 05:45.400]  We'll go into that a little bit later.
[05:46.440 --> 05:48.820]  Say, well, I want to see what's in your bag.
[05:48.820 --> 05:50.760]  I think you're not allowed to have that bag.
[05:50.880 --> 05:51.980]  Or let me look in your bag.
[05:52.980 --> 05:59.740]  You do not have to consent to any search of your body, your car, your bags.
[06:00.100 --> 06:02.240]  They'll probably still do the search anyways.
[06:03.040 --> 06:07.560]  But by consenting to the search, anything they do at that point is legal.
[06:07.560 --> 06:10.640]  They can use that as evidence against you.
[06:10.800 --> 06:15.940]  If I allow them to look through my folder, they can use anything in my folder.
[06:16.100 --> 06:18.940]  If I say, no, you can't see this folder, they'll be like, get away.
[06:19.320 --> 06:20.700]  Look through the folder anyways.
[06:21.340 --> 06:22.540]  But I've not consented.
[06:22.780 --> 06:30.420]  And you have to actually say that you do not consent to a search, which you can't just not say anything.
[06:30.560 --> 06:32.080]  You have to say, I do not consent to this search.
[06:32.080 --> 06:38.880]  There's never a reason to consent to a search that I can think of in all the times we've done this.
[06:40.260 --> 06:43.840]  It's not to your benefit to consent to a search.
[06:44.020 --> 06:49.240]  And this includes your car or whatever vehicle you may be in.
[06:50.180 --> 06:58.180]  If you're arrested or detained, because they sometimes just say you're detained, which is kind of a nonsensical term.
[06:59.500 --> 07:12.180]  What you want to say, of course, and you've heard it in movies and things, but you'd be surprised at the few number of activists, anarchists, protesters, hackers, that actually say, I'm going to remain silent and I want to speak to a lawyer.
[07:14.420 --> 07:16.500]  This is your right.
[07:16.680 --> 07:19.940]  And it follows you throughout the entire process.
[07:20.200 --> 07:21.700]  It doesn't matter where you are.
[07:21.820 --> 07:25.040]  If you're being interrogated, even if you started talking.
[07:25.040 --> 07:26.420]  I gave them my name.
[07:26.900 --> 07:28.640]  I gave them where I was going.
[07:29.040 --> 07:33.640]  And all of a sudden they started asking me questions about my associations, what kind of groups I belong to.
[07:33.840 --> 07:37.540]  I can always invoke, I'm going to remain silent.
[07:37.600 --> 07:38.800]  I want to speak to a lawyer.
[07:39.560 --> 07:41.380]  You can do that at any time.
[07:41.820 --> 07:43.580]  You can start talking again.
[07:43.720 --> 07:46.760]  And then you can re-invoke, I want to remain silent.
[07:46.900 --> 07:47.980]  I want to speak to my lawyer.
[07:47.980 --> 07:50.480]  You never gain any...
[07:50.480 --> 07:55.160]  Most people think they can talk their way out of a police situation.
[07:55.660 --> 07:57.840]  This almost never happens.
[07:58.020 --> 08:02.380]  When you start talking, you're putting yourself in jeopardy, but you're also putting other people in jeopardy.
[08:02.900 --> 08:10.960]  Often in protest situations or involved in what they deem political work, suspicious political work.
[08:10.960 --> 08:13.280]  Actually, they're there to gather intelligence.
[08:13.980 --> 08:22.320]  They don't really care that you spit on the sidewalk or that you were chanting or that you were leaving a hacker convention.
[08:22.480 --> 08:23.300]  They don't care about that.
[08:23.500 --> 08:25.220]  What they want is they want information.
[08:25.440 --> 08:28.240]  They want to know who you know, what was going on.
[08:28.600 --> 08:31.040]  And they'll start with very innocuous questions.
[08:31.300 --> 08:33.500]  The thing is they're trained to do this.
[08:34.840 --> 08:36.600]  And they're trained to do this.
[08:37.100 --> 08:38.660]  Often they're very good at it.
[08:38.880 --> 08:43.180]  And you almost never gain anything by talking to the police.
[08:43.360 --> 08:45.540]  You're best off... or law enforcement in general.
[08:45.740 --> 08:49.320]  You're best off remaining silent until you can talk to a lawyer.
[08:49.460 --> 08:51.060]  You can always talk to them later.
[08:51.960 --> 08:55.240]  You know, they'll always be glad to hear what you have to say later.
[08:55.640 --> 08:57.500]  So it's tempting.
[08:57.720 --> 09:02.980]  I know it's very tempting that when you're stopped by law enforcement, they're asking you simple questions like, Where are you going?
[09:03.200 --> 09:04.600]  Or did you come from the subway?
[09:04.600 --> 09:06.440]  But this is the foot in the door.
[09:06.640 --> 09:10.500]  And they're going to keep asking you more and more questions until they get what they want.
[09:10.820 --> 09:13.620]  Also, what you say puts yourself in legal peril.
[09:14.100 --> 09:18.060]  You may say something innocuous and it may get misconstrued.
[09:18.400 --> 09:24.120]  Or they may try to catch you up on what they think that you're lying about and you're not, but you're confused.
[09:24.120 --> 09:27.060]  And to be perfectly honest, it's quite intimidating.
[09:27.060 --> 09:32.940]  Especially if it's FBI or something like that at your door or stopping you on the street.
[09:33.020 --> 09:34.480]  It can be quite intimidating.
[09:35.380 --> 09:41.580]  The thing to remember too is police and law enforcement are allowed to lie.
[09:42.060 --> 09:43.180]  It's part of the game.
[09:43.360 --> 09:44.160]  They're allowed to lie.
[09:44.420 --> 09:46.460]  They're legally allowed to lie.
[09:46.460 --> 09:50.280]  Not only that, they're in fact encouraged to do so.
[09:52.040 --> 09:59.720]  So, you shouldn't believe when they say, Oh well, you know, you fit the description of somebody that threw a rock through a window.
[09:59.920 --> 10:06.500]  Or you fit the description of somebody we're looking for in a stolen car or something like that.
[10:07.060 --> 10:08.480]  They're allowed to do that.
[10:08.920 --> 10:11.500]  And they're allowed to lie about nearly anything.
[10:11.740 --> 10:12.880]  There's some limitations.
[10:13.100 --> 10:15.900]  But for the most part, they're allowed to lie about anything.
[10:16.280 --> 10:21.300]  And just so you know, 99% of the time, they're not going to read you your rights.
[10:22.280 --> 10:30.840]  And often in a protest situation or a kind of a mass arrest situation, they won't even tell you what you're arrested for.
[10:31.100 --> 10:34.440]  That's just something a lot of people get freaked out by.
[10:34.440 --> 10:38.960]  Like, the first thing they'll do is when they call me, they'll say, They never read me my rights.
[10:39.180 --> 10:41.580]  Well, they actually don't have to read you your rights.
[10:41.780 --> 10:47.420]  They only have to read you your rights if they want to use what you're saying against you as evidence.
[10:48.340 --> 10:49.880]  So they don't have to read you your rights.
[10:50.020 --> 10:53.220]  They're supposed to tell you what you've been charged with.
[10:53.520 --> 10:55.720]  But more often than not, they don't.
[10:55.800 --> 10:58.780]  And there's no real penalty for not doing that.
[10:58.960 --> 10:59.360]  There's nothing.
[10:59.820 --> 11:01.540]  They're not going to get in trouble if you're doing it.
[11:01.540 --> 11:05.120]  Often, too, they may not know what they're going to charge you with.
[11:05.260 --> 11:08.920]  They're just grabbing you and will figure it out when you're going through processing.
[11:10.040 --> 11:12.080]  So those are the basic, know your rights.
[11:12.380 --> 11:13.720]  You don't have to consent.
[11:14.720 --> 11:19.560]  No matter what law enforcement agency it is, you don't have to produce ID.
[11:19.860 --> 11:23.260]  And you never, ever have to talk to law enforcement.
[11:23.700 --> 11:25.520]  Never have to talk to law enforcement.
[11:26.640 --> 11:29.400]  And now we're going to go... so that's all the good news.
[11:29.620 --> 11:30.460]  That's happy.
[11:33.440 --> 11:35.500]  Yeah, you have to say you do that consensus.
[11:35.840 --> 11:38.880]  Because what they'll say is you nodded or something like that.
[11:39.060 --> 11:42.120]  And they took that as you agreeing to consent.
[11:42.840 --> 11:45.400]  So now, that's the kind of good news.
[11:45.580 --> 11:47.020]  And now we're going to go to bad news.
[11:48.560 --> 11:50.140]  Yeah, there's lots of bad news.
[11:52.180 --> 11:55.580]  Part of the bad news is that I'm not an expert on the PATRIOT Act.
[11:55.880 --> 11:59.740]  And if anyone here is, I welcome you to join us up here.
[11:59.740 --> 12:06.200]  Part of the deal with the People's Law Collective is... Oh, first of all, I should say my name is Tim Cantz.
[12:06.400 --> 12:08.020]  I work with the People's Law Collective.
[12:08.020 --> 12:13.020]  I'm also a paralegal with the Legal Aid Society in Manhattan, the Criminal Defense Division.
[12:13.020 --> 12:24.640]  And part of what we like about the People's Law Collective, no offense to our friend to my right here, is that there's no lawyers involved.
[12:26.980 --> 12:28.380]  None of us are lawyers.
[12:29.340 --> 12:32.640]  We're all kind of activists and interested in legal issues.
[12:33.280 --> 12:47.060]  But of course, the legal world tends to be very complex and difficult for anyone who gets sucked into the system, drawn into the system, forced into the system in some way or the other or another to navigate.
[12:48.220 --> 12:54.160]  I know at the Legal Aid Society, a lot of what we do is just explain to people what the heck is going on.
[12:55.000 --> 13:06.260]  And that sort of lack of understanding of this Kafkaesque kind of court system needs to be dealt with constantly.
[13:06.260 --> 13:08.700]  I was reading the Hacker Journal recently.
[13:09.040 --> 13:24.100]  One of the first editorials talking about several new pieces of legislation and also mentions the PATRIOT Act and how it's imperative that we really try to break these things down into usable language so that we can talk about them and deal with them.
[13:24.480 --> 13:46.000]  Because otherwise, you know, we just have these legislators on Capitol Hill for not necessarily very good reasons, putting out stuff that allows law enforcement agencies and the FBI and these other groups to do things that it's very difficult to address for the average person.
[13:47.840 --> 13:56.660]  When I first looked into the PATRIOT Act, you can pull it up online and I downloaded it.
[13:56.780 --> 13:59.480]  It's about 144 pages that I downloaded.
[13:59.480 --> 14:03.780]  But it's a very complex, large piece of legislation.
[14:05.300 --> 14:09.180]  Does anybody know what the USA PATRIOT Act stands for?
[14:09.340 --> 14:10.140]  It's actually an acronym.
[14:10.740 --> 14:11.820]  Anybody know that?
[14:14.060 --> 14:32.660]  USA PATRIOT Act, this is how kind of a name our legislators can be, stands for Uniting and Strengthening America, that's the USA part, by providing appropriate tools required to intercept and obstruct terrorism act.
[14:32.980 --> 14:36.140]  The USA PATRIOT Act, that's what it means.
[14:36.980 --> 14:38.620]  Okay, so we're dealing with patriotism.
[14:38.820 --> 14:43.060]  It has huge ramifications on immigration issues, of course.
[14:43.820 --> 14:54.280]  You know, I think still every Saturday in Brooklyn, people are protesting the detention of, you know, illegal immigrants out there.
[14:54.620 --> 15:05.320]  Part of what the PATRIOT Act has done is allowed the government to hold people on very minor immigration or criminal charges indefinitely.
[15:07.100 --> 15:16.500]  Now, it was passed exactly 45 days after September 11th, and by a very wide majority.
[15:16.500 --> 15:22.480]  The House vote was 356 to 66, and the Senate vote was 98 to 1.
[15:24.120 --> 15:25.800]  Somebody abstained, I guess.
[15:31.280 --> 15:32.100]  It was Feingold.
[15:32.460 --> 15:32.540]  Feingold.
[15:32.620 --> 15:33.420]  Russell Feingold.
[15:41.480 --> 15:43.680]  So, you know, it was pushed through quickly.
[15:44.340 --> 15:51.120]  And, you know, there was the anthrax scare, still heavy at that time.
[15:54.140 --> 15:54.900]  What's that?
[15:57.580 --> 16:00.420]  Yeah, it wasn't open to public debate.
[16:01.960 --> 16:07.020]  As he said, it's an extremely large document and fairly complex.
[16:07.840 --> 16:17.900]  And what's surprising is when you look at the congressional record at the time, you can pull up the number of requests for information by AIDS.
[16:18.340 --> 16:26.900]  Usually if there's an agriculture bill, say on something like dairy farming, you'll see all these requests for different information, censuses and all this kind of stuff.
[16:26.900 --> 16:33.720]  When you look for, when this is being passed, you see almost nothing being requested from law enforcement agencies.
[16:34.060 --> 16:37.620]  Certainly nothing requested from groups like the ACLU and things like that.
[16:37.620 --> 16:42.620]  So this was pretty much a no-brainer as far as the legislature was concerned.
[16:47.000 --> 16:48.460]  Supposedly, or they didn't read it.
[16:48.740 --> 16:50.220]  I mean, some of them actually admitted to that.
[16:52.560 --> 17:03.860]  There was supposedly a problem with the congressional print shop at the time, and there were copies for every congressman, but some of them were collated wrong and some were blank pages.
[17:04.740 --> 17:07.820]  The funny thing is that this came out after it was passed.
[17:08.240 --> 17:13.640]  So obviously some people hadn't even noticed that the middle part was blank or mis-correlated.
[17:22.880 --> 17:30.340]  There's actually a few... there's a couple of other... there's three other acts sort of embedded within the PATRIOT Act.
[17:33.140 --> 17:38.400]  that are defined as separate acts within the PATRIOT Act.
[17:38.680 --> 17:46.300]  One is called the International Money Laundering Abatement and Anti-Terrorist Financing Act of 2001.
[17:46.900 --> 17:54.020]  Of course, we heard a lot about tracking monies of what are defined as terrorist groups.
[17:54.020 --> 17:55.260]  And that deals with that.
[17:55.360 --> 17:59.260]  That's about a third of the... of the text of the PATRIOT Act just deals with that.
[17:59.520 --> 18:00.840]  Money laundering issues.
[18:03.820 --> 18:04.260]  So...
[18:08.040 --> 18:11.460]  Yeah, the... I mean, the list... I just have a list of the...
[18:11.980 --> 18:16.860]  the various laws that are referred to and often amended within the PATRIOT Act.
[18:16.860 --> 18:22.820]  If you look at the text of the PATRIOT Act, it's filled with amendments of previous acts of Congress.
[18:23.560 --> 18:27.280]  Which makes it a little difficult to read because you have to then go back...
[18:27.280 --> 18:29.980]  It doesn't reprint the text for you of these other ones.
[18:30.040 --> 18:35.240]  So you have to go back and look at these other acts and see how they're funking with prior legislation.
[18:36.480 --> 18:42.040]  And some of them are... are very critical and... and dealt with extensively in the PATRIOT Act.
[18:43.260 --> 18:46.380]  The Immigration and Naturalization Act being one of them.
[18:46.980 --> 18:51.160]  And another one being the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978.
[18:52.600 --> 18:58.880]  And that one deals a lot with the... the new surveillance capabilities of the government.
[18:59.380 --> 19:04.720]  That, you know, would be particularly crucial to anyone who's hacking.
[19:06.300 --> 19:12.820]  But the list is long of the different acts that are referred to or amended.
[19:13.220 --> 19:15.100]  I'll just give you a sample.
[19:15.280 --> 19:20.500]  The Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1993 is amended.
[19:20.760 --> 19:22.900]  The International Emergency Powers Act.
[19:23.500 --> 19:25.800]  Classified Information Procedures Act.
[19:26.180 --> 19:30.540]  Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996.
[19:30.540 --> 19:33.520]  National Security Act of 1947.
[19:34.140 --> 19:36.480]  The Communication Act of 1934.
[19:36.940 --> 19:40.960]  The Trade Sanctions Reform and Export Enhancement Act of 2000.
[19:41.420 --> 19:42.820]  This is one of my favorites.
[19:43.020 --> 19:46.780]  The Foreign Narcotics Kingpin Designation Act.
[19:47.620 --> 19:49.660]  Federal Tort Claims Act.
[19:50.200 --> 19:51.980]  Federal Deposit Insurance Act.
[19:52.080 --> 19:53.910]  Money Laundering Control Act of 1986.
[19:55.260 --> 19:56.760]  International Banking Act.
[19:56.940 --> 19:57.900]  Controlled Substance Act.
[19:57.900 --> 19:58.880]  All these things are...
[19:58.880 --> 20:00.260]  It goes on and on.
[20:00.320 --> 20:03.980]  All these things are involved and have been revised by the PATRIOT Act.
[20:06.700 --> 20:12.780]  So, looking into it, you realize that the tentacles of this legislation run wide and deep.
[20:15.540 --> 20:16.860]  Some of the...
[20:16.860 --> 20:24.100]  Just a few of the ideas that it deals with.
[20:24.540 --> 20:29.760]  One significant one is the notion of domestic terrorism.
[20:30.780 --> 20:38.460]  And the breadth of the definition, how the definition of terrorism has been opened up.
[20:41.300 --> 20:57.480]  Domestic terrorism has been redefined broadly and now extends to, quote, acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws if they appear to be intended to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion.
[20:57.480 --> 21:01.800]  And occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.
[21:02.960 --> 21:15.020]  So, in other words, any sort of activity that is trying to influence policy and is intimidating in some way can be construed as terrorist activity.
[21:15.820 --> 21:17.520]  Was that an article?
[21:18.020 --> 21:18.460]  Of government?
[21:19.340 --> 21:20.160]  Did you just check that?
[21:21.800 --> 21:23.780]  Yeah, policy of a government.
[21:24.140 --> 21:24.280]  Of government.
[21:24.680 --> 21:26.420]  So, that would mean the policy of a...
[21:27.360 --> 21:28.140]  Oh, yeah.
[21:28.520 --> 21:33.880]  And you'll see in how raise the fist.com, that was very important.
[21:33.940 --> 21:40.220]  That statement he read to try to charge him as a domestic terrorist.
[21:40.460 --> 21:43.120]  And they certainly treated him as a domestic terrorist.
[21:44.580 --> 21:46.980]  Does it have to jeopardize human life?
[21:47.160 --> 21:48.180]  Or is that at war?
[21:48.620 --> 21:49.300]  No.
[21:50.440 --> 21:51.500]  It's...
[21:51.500 --> 21:53.920]  Acts dangerous to human life.
[21:54.080 --> 21:54.240]  Right.
[21:54.720 --> 21:56.220]  Acts dangerous to human life.
[21:56.380 --> 22:20.280]  And when you look into how that has been interpreted by certain law enforcement agencies, including the FBI, things like what have been traditionally considered, you know, civil disobedience, like blocking an intersection, is considered now as a possibility dangerous to human life because it would impact emergency vehicles getting to them.
[22:22.080 --> 22:29.700]  And the trouble is, is that a lot of judges give a lot more latitude to someone's claim that it's a jeopardy of the team in life.
[22:30.160 --> 22:32.780]  We have a lot of judges out there that are scared to act also.
[22:32.780 --> 22:33.780]  So...
[22:33.780 --> 22:34.940]  So...
[22:34.940 --> 22:35.140]  So...
[22:35.520 --> 22:35.840]  So...
[22:39.280 --> 22:39.920]  Um...
[22:39.920 --> 22:42.940]  Something relating to internet usage.
[22:43.380 --> 22:48.860]  Uh, the app talks about, uh, the use of pen registers and trap and trace devices.
[22:50.540 --> 22:51.360]  Um...
[22:51.360 --> 23:00.880]  You know, these to collect information on addresses coming into or out of the computer or a phone line.
[23:01.960 --> 23:02.760]  Um...
[23:18.020 --> 23:18.840]  Um...
[23:18.840 --> 23:19.720]  Um...
[23:19.720 --> 23:20.580]  So it's...
[23:20.580 --> 23:21.160]  You're kind of...
[23:21.160 --> 23:31.760]  You're moving away from just immigration terrorist, you know, foreign intelligence terrorist activities to any sort of general criminal activity being allowed to gather.
[23:32.920 --> 23:33.520]  Um...
[23:33.520 --> 23:33.840]  And...
[23:33.840 --> 23:35.320]  And, um...
[23:35.320 --> 23:38.180]  You know, the surveillance capabilities are opening up in that way.
[23:41.380 --> 23:45.300]  Remember, it's an ongoing investigation of criminal activities.
[23:45.300 --> 23:45.900]  So...
[23:45.900 --> 23:53.220]  If they're investigating me for, uh, whatever, for, you know, failing to pay taxes or something like that.
[23:53.720 --> 23:57.260]  By this, they could monitor my...
[23:57.260 --> 24:02.660]  Not only my usage of the internet going to tax resistor sites or something.
[24:03.020 --> 24:08.340]  But they could extend it to email correspondence going both ways to different people.
[24:08.560 --> 24:14.340]  Who may not even be suspected at all of any kind of criminal activity whatsoever.
[24:14.340 --> 24:17.440]  Would not even be, uh, and...
[24:18.480 --> 24:19.080]  And...
[24:19.080 --> 24:21.340]  Knowledgeable that I'm engaged in suspicious activity.
[24:22.280 --> 24:26.940]  But they would still be able to be monitored by these same, uh, enforcement agencies.
[24:27.740 --> 24:38.120]  And one of the big changes is that, previous to this, basically a law enforcement person is supposed to go to a judge to get a warrant to do a wiretap.
[24:38.120 --> 24:41.180]  And that wiretap was usually just one phone number or one link.
[24:41.680 --> 24:42.160]  Now it's...
[24:42.960 --> 24:44.820]  Basically the tap is on a person.
[24:45.060 --> 24:47.720]  There's any type of communication on that person.
[24:48.080 --> 24:51.620]  And a lot of times, um, you don't even have to go to a judge to get it.
[24:52.380 --> 24:54.440]  So that's a major change right there.
[24:54.620 --> 24:57.580]  There's no judicial review over the power of law enforcement.
[25:00.790 --> 25:01.430]  All right.
[25:01.790 --> 25:04.770]  So, I mean, and there's obviously much more in the PATRIOT Act.
[25:04.990 --> 25:16.930]  Uh, it basically gives sanctions to, which we'll go into our next section, uh, what we used to call them, you know, in the COINTELPRO days, uh, black bag jobs.
[25:16.930 --> 25:19.890]  This would be the, uh, something that's always been going on.
[25:20.990 --> 25:28.970]  Where enforcement agents would come into your house without your knowledge, look through what they wanted, take what they want.
[25:29.570 --> 25:30.730]  That's always happened.
[25:31.010 --> 25:35.810]  I mean, that's the reality of being involved in political dissent in this country.
[25:35.930 --> 25:44.250]  The difference now, the guideline changes after the PATRIOT Act, and these were guideline changes, these were not passed by anybody.
[25:44.250 --> 25:55.570]  Uh, these changes allow, uh, warrantless searches under certain, uh, conditions, namely, you know, domestic terrorism type changes.
[25:56.110 --> 26:05.510]  And, uh, so these black bag jobs now, uh, become legitimate, uh, law enforcement tools, uh, which goes into warrants.
[26:06.270 --> 26:08.730]  Uh, the good, I mean, all that's bad news.
[26:08.890 --> 26:10.950]  There's just no kidding away, getting around it.
[26:10.950 --> 26:17.790]  But there's some good news, and that basically, the rights I talked about before remain unchanged.
[26:18.350 --> 26:31.070]  And basically, your rights regarding warrants remain unchanged, with that one caveat of the warrantless search, which, um, you know, is bad.
[26:31.070 --> 26:41.410]  If you get a knock at your door, and it's the police or law enforcement agent, they, you have to remember a rule.
[26:41.930 --> 26:43.370]  It's the vampire rule.
[26:43.550 --> 26:45.510]  You've seen it in a million vampire movies.
[26:45.810 --> 26:49.030]  If you invite them in, they can come in and do what they want.
[26:49.350 --> 26:51.690]  Again, you don't want to consent to a search.
[26:51.690 --> 26:54.690]  Of course, they will tell you, well, this is just a technicality.
[26:55.630 --> 26:56.910]  We have a right to search this.
[26:57.170 --> 27:01.230]  Oh, well, we could get a warrant, and then we can toss this place, you know.
[27:01.370 --> 27:02.630]  So you might as well just let us...
[27:02.630 --> 27:07.810]  If you've got nothing to hide, why won't you let us into your garage, into your house, into your bedroom?
[27:08.370 --> 27:09.790]  Uh, the answer is no.
[27:09.950 --> 27:10.810]  You're not invited.
[27:11.190 --> 27:12.070]  Don't let them in.
[27:12.070 --> 27:23.290]  Once they're in, if you consent, then anything in plain view, which also includes all the extrasensory abilities of police officers.
[27:23.470 --> 27:25.850]  Because they're not like you and I.
[27:26.010 --> 27:27.690]  They have heightened senses.
[27:27.930 --> 27:30.850]  They can smell a marijuana seed in the back of a closet.
[27:31.070 --> 27:33.670]  They can see underneath car seats.
[27:34.210 --> 27:37.390]  They can hear, you know, computer files ticking away.
[27:38.030 --> 27:46.950]  It's amazing the list when you actually start to look at things that have been considered in plain view or plain sight, depending on the state.
[27:48.170 --> 27:51.850]  So if they come and they do have a warrant, they knock on the door.
[27:52.710 --> 27:53.250]  This is police.
[27:53.470 --> 27:54.130]  We have a warrant.
[27:54.750 --> 27:56.390]  They may or may not at this time.
[27:56.870 --> 27:58.570]  Often they'll say that when they don't.
[27:58.690 --> 28:02.090]  What you do is you come outside your house.
[28:02.090 --> 28:10.110]  Because again, remember, because their vision works around corners and things like that, they'll be looking in through that side as you're opening up.
[28:10.290 --> 28:11.770]  You come out and you look at the warrant.
[28:12.130 --> 28:17.110]  And according to the law, you have a quote unquote reasonable amount of time to read it.
[28:17.530 --> 28:20.490]  You should take all the time you can to read it.
[28:20.550 --> 28:22.410]  You're looking to make sure the date is right.
[28:22.710 --> 28:24.370]  That in fact it is your address.
[28:24.510 --> 28:25.970]  Because often it's not.
[28:26.450 --> 28:28.550]  And see what they are looking for.
[28:28.810 --> 28:30.410]  It should be all in the warrant.
[28:30.410 --> 28:33.430]  And if there's a name, make sure the name is correct.
[28:34.390 --> 28:37.430]  Now the thing to remember is you want to go out and close the door.
[28:37.730 --> 28:39.550]  What you don't want to do...
[28:39.550 --> 28:40.350]  It's like...
[28:40.350 --> 28:45.770]  Again, you know, a lot of laws like metaphysics doesn't necessarily make rational sense.
[28:46.130 --> 28:49.030]  You know, there's just all these like laws and little things.
[28:49.210 --> 28:50.770]  You don't want to lock your door.
[28:51.050 --> 29:01.330]  If you lock your door when you come out, and it is a valid warrant, they have been known to arrest people for obstruction of justice in government administration.
[29:01.850 --> 29:04.930]  So you don't want to do that.
[29:05.170 --> 29:06.790]  Or if you try to block the door.
[29:07.210 --> 29:08.570]  No, you can't get in.
[29:08.690 --> 29:09.530]  They can...
[29:09.530 --> 29:11.110]  Obstruction of government administration.
[29:11.670 --> 29:13.190]  So you want to read it.
[29:13.190 --> 29:25.910]  If the warrant is for a person as opposed to stuff like your hard drive, or your literature, or anything of a political nature, you have a right to go in.
[29:26.130 --> 29:27.350]  You should have a right.
[29:27.510 --> 29:28.870]  They don't always grant you this.
[29:29.030 --> 29:32.850]  To go in and have that person come out if you happen not to be that person.
[29:33.710 --> 29:39.630]  If you let them go in to get that person, again, plain sight laws apply.
[29:40.790 --> 29:44.510]  There's another way warrants and inspections...
[29:44.510 --> 29:46.550]  Inspections are different than warrants.
[29:46.750 --> 29:50.350]  And they tend to depend on the city and the state you happen to be in.
[29:50.710 --> 29:56.770]  A number of government agencies, non-law enforcement agencies, can come in and try to inspect the place.
[29:56.930 --> 29:59.230]  You know, fire department is the most common.
[30:00.150 --> 30:01.730]  They may arrive at a door.
[30:02.010 --> 30:04.590]  And they should have an order to inspect the premises.
[30:05.050 --> 30:06.650]  It should be similar to a warrant.
[30:06.730 --> 30:07.850]  It should have the right address.
[30:09.210 --> 30:11.550]  Again, you should have a right to read the order.
[30:11.850 --> 30:17.370]  And in most cities, the right to verify that the order is, in fact, correct by phone.
[30:17.730 --> 30:18.790]  Some cities you can.
[30:18.950 --> 30:19.810]  Some cities you can.
[30:20.490 --> 30:22.310]  And to make sure that it's legitimate.
[30:22.750 --> 30:28.930]  The best protection, let's say you're an IMC, and you're going to be doing a protest in Chicago.
[30:28.930 --> 30:34.090]  And you're going to have a space you're renting or someone's giving you.
[30:34.310 --> 30:39.830]  The best thing is to make sure all the inspections have been done ahead of time.
[30:40.110 --> 30:43.710]  And to have that somewhere by the door so you can show them.
[30:43.870 --> 30:46.170]  We had our inspection two months ago.
[30:46.410 --> 30:48.610]  It's not due for another inspection for six months.
[30:48.810 --> 30:55.310]  You also will need the... you want to have, like, leases and fire inspection notices, health inspection notices.
[30:55.310 --> 30:57.330]  You also want the landlord's phone number.
[30:58.050 --> 30:58.190]  Okay?
[30:58.610 --> 31:02.790]  We also, after this, if anybody wants, we've made these cute little posters.
[31:02.990 --> 31:04.610]  You can put by doors.
[31:05.250 --> 31:06.550]  They'll tell you what to do.
[31:06.670 --> 31:08.890]  Because we don't expect you to remember all this.
[31:09.030 --> 31:16.030]  What to do if somebody comes to your door, either with an inspection notice or a warrant.
[31:16.190 --> 31:17.610]  And you can just follow that.
[31:17.870 --> 31:19.350]  And we'll get you through it.
[31:19.350 --> 31:26.150]  So the good news is this really hasn't... this gigantic document hasn't affected really your basic rights.
[31:26.370 --> 31:31.650]  It's really changed in a bad way how law enforcement does its thing.
[31:31.950 --> 31:39.070]  But as far as these basic rights, for the most part, they're protected and you can still use them somewhat effectively.
[31:39.450 --> 31:46.670]  Also, it's important to point out to your guests that may be staying with you that you don't have an open invitation to the FBI to come in and visit.
[31:47.350 --> 31:52.650]  Many, many cases, they'll wait for the person that they're after to leave.
[31:52.890 --> 32:00.650]  Knowing that there's someone just visiting, knock on the door and just say that your host invited us in.
[32:00.810 --> 32:06.170]  So it's really important to make sure that everyone that's been staying with you also doesn't let anybody in.
[32:06.350 --> 32:09.950]  Is there any children that may not come up to your child?
[32:11.330 --> 32:15.710]  It's been debatable, but it's good to tell your children not to let them in.
[32:15.710 --> 32:16.650]  The vampire rule.
[32:16.930 --> 32:18.290]  Remember the vampire rule.
[32:18.970 --> 32:22.130]  And they'll do that too with the person they want.
[32:22.470 --> 32:25.290]  When they leave, they'll come in and say, is John Smith here?
[32:25.370 --> 32:27.670]  You know John Smith isn't here because he just left.
[32:27.890 --> 32:30.330]  And the temptation is to say, okay, go ahead and look.
[32:30.690 --> 32:32.870]  They may not be looking for John Smith at all.
[32:32.970 --> 32:37.170]  They may be looking for computers, literature, somebody else.
[32:37.610 --> 32:42.810]  And also another way to make sure you're in control of the situation is to make sure you get their badge number.
[32:43.270 --> 32:44.390]  You ask to see their badge.
[32:44.550 --> 32:45.670]  You write their badge number down.
[32:45.910 --> 32:51.490]  And it's basically giving them notice that if anything happens that at least you're going to try to hold them accountable.
[32:51.490 --> 33:01.870]  There's so many times that people have come to the National Lawyers Guild or to, you know, other groups of defense and said that their badge has been trampled and we say who and they just said some guy in blue.
[33:02.190 --> 33:06.370]  So it's really important to try to identify who you're dealing with.
[33:07.010 --> 33:12.270]  All right, and here's kind of a worst case, case history of somebody.
[33:14.110 --> 33:24.830]  The Sherman, Sherman who set up a website and may or may not have set up a group, it's not clear, called RaisedFist.com.
[33:25.030 --> 33:27.490]  It's an anarchist website.
[33:27.790 --> 33:28.630]  It's back on.
[33:28.770 --> 33:29.710]  It was taken off.
[33:29.710 --> 33:46.810]  On January 24th of this year, 25 agents from at least four different agencies surround his suburban home, SWAT team, LAPD, FBI, all with their guns out.
[33:47.050 --> 34:01.090]  And they have a warrant and they come in and they take all of his computer equipment, they take all his political flyers, they take books, including school books, for classes he was taking.
[34:01.410 --> 34:06.330]  They take everything that they can and load into big white trucks.
[34:08.090 --> 34:11.310]  Most of that stuff has never actually been returned.
[34:11.710 --> 34:13.830]  Some of it, as my understanding, has been returned.
[34:14.430 --> 34:22.670]  And they said that they were, you know, looking for hacking, that he supposedly hacked into a variety of places.
[34:23.310 --> 34:28.810]  It just so happened that he had an anarchist, very militant, anarchist website.
[34:29.130 --> 34:32.250]  But on January 24th, they said that had nothing to do with it.
[34:33.130 --> 34:35.670]  No charges were pressed against him.
[34:35.990 --> 34:37.870]  Now, on February 2nd, yes?
[34:44.230 --> 34:45.950]  Excuse me, there is a mic up front.
[34:46.110 --> 34:47.610]  Would you walk up to the mic and comment?
[34:47.770 --> 34:49.090]  Because I can't hear here in the back.
[34:52.330 --> 35:01.450]  I was just wondering what legal obligations the police have to catalog what they take from you and how you go about, you know, fighting to get back what it is, too.
[35:01.750 --> 35:04.370]  Especially, you know, they're saying, oh, we didn't take that.
[35:04.750 --> 35:10.710]  They have an absolute obligation to catalog everything they remove from your person, your car.
[35:13.050 --> 35:14.470]  They don't do it.
[35:17.110 --> 35:21.150]  And often they do because they don't know what's going to be used as evidence or not.
[35:21.510 --> 35:25.810]  But then it gets shipped usually to a warehouse if you're in a big city like New York.
[35:26.510 --> 35:27.890]  In our case, Queens.
[35:28.250 --> 35:28.870]  It gets shipped, too.
[35:29.210 --> 35:32.550]  And you try to get your backpack back or your bicycle back.
[35:33.310 --> 35:35.990]  It seems to be completely like the lotto.
[35:36.170 --> 35:37.590]  You either get it back or you don't.
[35:37.870 --> 35:39.390]  People fought to get it back.
[35:40.590 --> 35:46.290]  The best thing to do is to, if you can, catalog yourself what they're taking.
[35:46.530 --> 35:48.490]  But that's often not possible.
[35:49.490 --> 36:00.530]  So basically, if you had this beautiful new Macintosh tie book, and for some reason they don't believe that whatever the information is, or whatever they're trying to look for, it's not going to be on the tie book.
[36:00.650 --> 36:08.990]  They could just sort of, you know, take it as part of the search and seizure and just say, you know, it's fine.
[36:09.990 --> 36:11.530]  And unfortunately it happens.
[36:11.710 --> 36:14.270]  I'm sure IMC can tell you different stories.
[36:14.270 --> 36:18.610]  There are people that have been arrested and their cameras have disappeared.
[36:19.490 --> 36:21.410]  Or sometimes they get the wrong camera.
[36:22.070 --> 36:25.030]  It's okay if they update it and get you a better camera.
[36:25.910 --> 36:27.650]  But often that's not the case.
[36:27.950 --> 36:30.850]  Also it's one of their main means of harassment.
[36:31.410 --> 36:39.110]  I mean, in some ways they'll just keep on doing these things and pushing the envelope and possibly never even charge you or take you to trial.
[36:39.110 --> 36:45.990]  If they keep on doing this enough, people stop, you know, stop being the public realm.
[36:46.530 --> 36:47.490]  I mean, that's...
[36:47.490 --> 36:48.230]  Can you...
[36:48.230 --> 36:50.030]  If somebody brings you a search warrant...
[36:50.030 --> 36:51.730]  I'm shouting, so I hope you can hear it.
[36:52.650 --> 37:02.090]  If somebody brings a search warrant to your place asking for a specific item, can you simply go back and fetch it and hand it to them and say, all right, guy, you got what you came for, adios?
[37:02.790 --> 37:03.230]  Yes.
[37:03.770 --> 37:04.230]  The answer...
[37:04.230 --> 37:05.070]  The answer is yes.
[37:05.390 --> 37:07.650]  But it's usually not very specific.
[37:08.350 --> 37:09.270]  That's the problem.
[37:09.510 --> 37:12.230]  But yes, if it's a specific like a car.
[37:12.970 --> 37:13.210]  Right.
[37:13.610 --> 37:16.370]  You could take your car out of the garage, give them the keys.
[37:16.970 --> 37:17.450]  They could take it.
[37:19.390 --> 37:20.390]  They'll say no.
[37:21.190 --> 37:23.230]  I mean, because again, they're allowed to lie.
[37:23.650 --> 37:25.170]  And they're expected to lie.
[37:25.650 --> 37:26.590]  You know, so, you know.
[37:27.910 --> 37:30.750]  You're not allowed to lie to them, but they're allowed to lie to you.
[37:30.750 --> 37:38.710]  So let me just finish this quick because the important thing to remember is, okay, so they get this warrant and it's supposedly for hacking, right?
[37:39.170 --> 37:40.630]  They go and grab all this guy's stuff.
[37:40.830 --> 37:42.470]  This is January 24th.
[37:42.590 --> 37:47.150]  He decides he's going to come to New York for the anti-Weft demonstrations.
[37:48.170 --> 37:50.870]  You know, because he's an anarchist activist.
[37:51.290 --> 37:57.810]  He's here on the streets participating like tens of thousands of other people.
[37:57.810 --> 38:02.590]  He gets arrested at the World Economic Forum with a bunch of other people.
[38:03.150 --> 38:05.010]  But they kind of pick him out.
[38:05.690 --> 38:10.810]  So, like the other WEF defendants, he spends about 30 hours at the Navy Yard.
[38:11.610 --> 38:15.230]  That's where they were keeping them because they were arresting, you know, lots of people.
[38:15.490 --> 38:18.750]  He was interrogated by both the FBI and the Secret Service.
[38:18.750 --> 38:23.150]  And then he was released from jail with all his charges dropped.
[38:23.330 --> 38:25.230]  It's like, whoa, okay, that's great.
[38:26.210 --> 38:28.830]  Which didn't happen to any of the other WEF defendants.
[38:28.970 --> 38:37.190]  And he walks out and then six FBI agents grab him and put him under arrest from a warrant from California.
[38:37.190 --> 38:45.690]  And this is, you know, so he gets arrested and now he's put into high security federal prison.
[38:46.310 --> 38:48.270]  This guy is 19 years old.
[38:49.250 --> 38:55.190]  Supposedly, they wanted him for hacking into one of the places where it's like a Walmart, you know.
[38:55.730 --> 38:57.130]  So they followed him.
[38:57.270 --> 39:05.870]  The FBI later admitted that they followed him from California, where he was, Los Angeles, to New York.
[39:06.970 --> 39:11.750]  Because they thought he was going to do hacking here that he couldn't do, I guess, in California.
[39:12.750 --> 39:13.650]  They followed him.
[39:13.730 --> 39:14.290]  They arrested him.
[39:14.330 --> 39:16.710]  They put him in high security federal prison.
[39:16.710 --> 39:27.110]  He is literally the person right next to him in the cell, you know, one cell down, is one of the people that was accused of blowing up the embassies in Africa.
[39:27.590 --> 39:30.730]  You know, so it's clear.
[39:31.190 --> 39:37.590]  And then he's held incommunicado for a while and interrogated throughout the night and throughout the days.
[39:38.970 --> 39:51.210]  He's eventually held for 13 days by federal marshals, you know, this ridiculous, you know, thin kid, you know, shackled up with these gigantic United States marshals.
[39:51.410 --> 39:54.130]  And they're going to take him back to California.
[39:54.350 --> 40:02.170]  And it's too dangerous to take this hacker, fly him to California, decide that they have to take him by land.
[40:02.170 --> 40:07.150]  And it just so happens that the major hub is Oklahoma City.
[40:07.290 --> 40:12.070]  So they're going to leave him there for five days, you know, where the U.S.
[40:12.210 --> 40:14.590]  Marshals know how to deal with domestic terrorists.
[40:15.550 --> 40:18.070]  So he gets a New York lawyer.
[40:18.090 --> 40:19.270]  He calls PLC.
[40:19.530 --> 40:20.910]  We work with him.
[40:21.310 --> 40:26.930]  And they, the FBI and the attorney, the U.S.
[40:26.990 --> 40:30.970]  Attorney's Office is very clear that we're going to charge him under the PATRIOT Act.
[40:30.970 --> 40:37.030]  And is even quoted as saying that, as far as we're concerned, Mr. Sherman is a domestic terrorist.
[40:37.770 --> 40:41.610]  So now he's changed from being a hacker to a domestic terrorist.
[40:41.870 --> 40:47.590]  And what they say now is, it is the political content, lo and behold, on his website.
[40:47.930 --> 40:57.770]  And that because he's putting bomb recipes that he got from his library, his school library, on his website, this is why that sentence is important.
[40:57.770 --> 41:00.570]  It jeopardizes human life.
[41:00.770 --> 41:07.490]  And because he wishes, he has an anarchist agenda, he wishes changes in the government.
[41:08.370 --> 41:12.070]  You know, he's trying to coerce government and corporations.
[41:12.730 --> 41:19.370]  Because you cannot, they want to add that to it too, so to go against anti-capitalist.
[41:19.690 --> 41:24.470]  Then he fit the definition, as far as they were concerned, of a domestic terrorist.
[41:25.330 --> 41:27.590]  He never claimed he tried to harm anyone.
[41:28.130 --> 41:40.710]  It was basically, completely based, you can be a political, you can be a domestic terrorist, not being part of any cell, not being part of any group, simply based on some stuff you put on a website.
[41:41.790 --> 41:44.870]  All of it individually, perfectly legal.
[41:45.410 --> 41:50.710]  But I guess in the combination, they thought, at the time, that it might be illegal.
[41:51.870 --> 41:54.790]  And that was Thomas Morozak, the U.S.
[41:54.890 --> 41:55.010]  Attorney.
[41:55.310 --> 41:57.750]  He was the public affairs officer for the U.S.
[41:58.050 --> 41:58.490]  Attorney's Office.
[41:59.050 --> 42:01.750]  After 13 days, they dropped the charges.
[42:01.950 --> 42:06.550]  He was quoted as saying, we have opted not to seek an indictment at this time.
[42:06.550 --> 42:11.370]  We're continuing to investigate the matter, but as of right now, he's off the hook.
[42:12.250 --> 42:15.270]  Quote, he still has the sword of Damocles hanging over him.
[42:16.970 --> 42:19.090]  So, they were like, okay, we're going to let him go.
[42:19.350 --> 42:20.330]  It's not clear.
[42:20.330 --> 42:40.570]  One of the reasons talking to his lawyer and other people close to the case, and what he believes, having talked to him through email and contact, is that he believes that they were going, that the lawyers in his case was going to take a lot of this information and make it public of wiretaps.
[42:40.570 --> 42:51.990]  Because he believes, and there's some evidence to support it, that the FBI was actually hacking him and using his email accounts and doing all of this kind of stuff.
[42:52.430 --> 42:54.270]  But he did get released.
[42:54.490 --> 42:55.790]  He's still under surveillance.
[42:55.990 --> 43:00.490]  He'll be under surveillance forever, you know, and he still hasn't gotten his stuff.
[43:00.610 --> 43:02.390]  But his website is back up.
[43:02.390 --> 43:10.310]  So, those are some of the things that the PATRIOT Act has made possible that really wasn't possible prior to that time.
[43:10.910 --> 43:14.270]  The kind of labeling someone a domestic terrorist.
[43:14.730 --> 43:16.990]  Joel, you have some stuff you want to do?
[43:17.090 --> 43:20.330]  Also, what I said before was that one of the searches is scary.
[43:20.470 --> 43:24.330]  And also, there's something called a military tribunal that's been set up.
[43:24.330 --> 43:33.790]  And there's something called a Star Chamber, basically, where they meet in Washington, five, six people from the Attorney General's office and some people from the Department of Defense.
[43:34.230 --> 43:41.890]  And basically say, we don't have to tell anybody, not even a judge, that we're going to go out on a, you know, fishing expedition and bring somebody in.
[43:42.130 --> 43:47.830]  And the scariest part, as an attorney, is not having access to a client.
[43:47.830 --> 43:58.190]  I got a call from the People's Law Collective on a case of a Pakistani-born doctor who happened to be a Canadian citizen that was picked up on an immigration charge.
[43:59.250 --> 44:08.230]  And there's hundreds of thousands of people that are in violation of technically some immigration regulation or another.
[44:09.590 --> 44:17.590]  But in this case, they brought him to Brooklyn, to the Metropolitan Detention Center, and they put him in heavy shackles.
[44:17.870 --> 44:23.950]  But the scary part is, they didn't tell us where he was at first, and they didn't tell the Canadian counselor that he was there.
[44:24.850 --> 44:30.770]  And as a lawyer, for the first time that I went in, actually, I got filmed talking to him.
[44:30.770 --> 44:43.210]  Part of the problem is, as I see it as a lawyer, speaking to a lot of people, they're really trying to create this division between your right to an attorney or right to, you know, to counsel.
[44:43.850 --> 44:47.190]  And so they've been holding people now, without even charging them.
[44:47.370 --> 44:50.950]  There's someone that's in there that was just a material witness.
[44:51.310 --> 44:54.510]  They won't even charge with a crime, and they won't give access to an attorney.
[44:54.510 --> 45:04.010]  So it's really important that everyone has some attorney's number, at least have some access, and also to let people know that you're going away for a few days or whatever.
[45:05.790 --> 45:07.630]  And also to try to bring the press in.
[45:08.010 --> 45:11.630]  We're finding the media, and in many, many cases, to be actually our friend.
[45:12.830 --> 45:21.090]  Because one thing is that the police and federal law people want is basically to try to pull people off and not let anyone know.
[45:21.090 --> 45:30.450]  So, if you know of someone that's being called, call the National Alliance Guild, call the People's Law Collective, and call the media to make sure that there's a fuss that's made about it.
[45:31.450 --> 45:32.810]  Yeah, I've got a question.
[45:33.370 --> 45:37.850]  When people are bust, I mean, obviously, like a lot of us have things that are worth a lot.
[45:38.070 --> 45:44.470]  Like, my library's $1,500, and there's MP3 players and, you know, PDAs and stuff like that.
[45:44.690 --> 45:47.870]  Is there a lot of stealing by police of the goodies?
[45:49.090 --> 45:50.890]  I don't know if it's so much stealing.
[45:51.170 --> 45:53.990]  There's a lot of incompetence with police.
[45:55.250 --> 45:56.250]  Depends on the city.
[45:56.510 --> 45:58.890]  New York is a gigantic, huge bureaucracy.
[45:59.530 --> 46:06.130]  I'm sure some stealing goes about, but more often than not, I think a lot of it is simply harassment.
[46:06.690 --> 46:09.250]  You know, making you come back over and over again.
[46:09.590 --> 46:10.920]  And a lot of it's incompetence.
[46:12.120 --> 46:13.140]  I've been lucky.
[46:13.420 --> 46:19.480]  The times I've been arrested, I have gotten my stuff and sometimes other stuff that didn't belong to me.
[46:19.660 --> 46:21.520]  Other people have not been so lucky.
[46:22.380 --> 46:27.240]  But when, if you do get arrested, they'll give you a sheet of stuff that they're taking.
[46:27.240 --> 46:30.140]  You want to make sure you read that carefully.
[46:31.080 --> 46:34.560]  And make sure you add each and every item.
[46:35.680 --> 46:38.240]  But there's no, there's no perfect way to guarantee it.
[46:38.240 --> 46:43.660]  Also, there's like a long shot that you can do with computer equipment that's networked.
[46:43.700 --> 46:54.720]  This is a long shot, but also with the computer equipment that's networked, there's something called a MAC address.
[46:54.880 --> 46:58.220]  It's basically a relatively unique identifier for your machine.
[46:58.440 --> 47:09.140]  So, in case somebody does try to pilfer it and somehow you're able to, you know, discover his traffic on a network, like you could actually prove that they have a machine, which is the bonus.
[47:14.400 --> 47:17.740]  First of all, what's the PLC's phone number, in case I get arrested?
[47:18.360 --> 47:28.220]  The PLC's phone number, and only is really useful if you get arrested in New York, is 917-807-0658.
[47:28.500 --> 47:29.520]  We also have a website.
[47:29.820 --> 47:39.960]  And I should also say that we were the first, but now there's a number of anarchists in other legal collectives in a lot of cities like Philadelphia, Washington, Quebec.
[47:42.620 --> 47:44.140]  I knew you would ask that.
[47:45.520 --> 47:47.600]  It's not an easy address.
[47:47.820 --> 47:57.540]  It's www.tao.com and then slash NYCPLC.
[47:59.380 --> 48:01.040]  Okay, a couple quick questions.
[48:01.340 --> 48:09.900]  There's probably no succinct answer to this, but one of them is, you know, isn't changing the government a basic right that we have?
[48:10.040 --> 48:13.040]  You know, participating in the political process as the public.
[48:13.240 --> 48:20.880]  So, does this in any way, you know, have anything to do with what's in the PATRIOT Act?
[48:22.040 --> 48:27.860]  You know, that comment that you made earlier about, you know, wanting to change the government, you know?
[48:28.040 --> 48:33.860]  I mean, how fundamental are we allowed to change the government if we decide eventually that, you know, we want socialism in this country?
[48:34.580 --> 48:40.580]  I mean, obviously, they're trying to prevent that, but don't we, you know, have that as a basic right?
[48:40.800 --> 48:43.080]  And why, you know, how is that allowed to be in that law?
[48:43.620 --> 48:43.940]  I don't know.
[48:43.940 --> 48:46.800]  Yeah, you would hope so, that we have that right.
[48:47.000 --> 48:48.960]  But we have to fight for it, basically.
[48:49.860 --> 48:52.100]  The other question, the other issue is...
[48:52.100 --> 48:52.740]  I just want to answer that also.
[48:52.940 --> 48:53.040]  Yeah.
[48:53.300 --> 49:00.860]  When people come to me, and I think they wave a flag, and try to wave even a bigger flag, I go back and ask them, do you remember American history?
[49:01.020 --> 49:01.500]  And they say, yeah.
[49:01.700 --> 49:03.160]  And I said, do you remember the Stamp Act?
[49:03.880 --> 49:04.280]  You know?
[49:04.420 --> 49:06.260]  And they go, yeah, what does that have to do with this?
[49:06.440 --> 49:16.620]  And I said, this is when all these, you know, just people living in their colonies, a little upset that the British were coming around to see if you paid your little stamp on tea.
[49:17.400 --> 49:17.480]  You know?
[49:18.040 --> 49:21.000]  And they said, and I go, do you remember what else about this?
[49:21.060 --> 49:22.600]  And they go, some people did.
[49:22.840 --> 49:32.060]  And what it is, is that they didn't like the British soldiers bursting into your, you know, little homes just to check if the tea was, you know, paid for.
[49:32.600 --> 49:39.340]  And I said, well, the important part is that we end up fighting the American Revolution, partly over these soldiers coming into our houses.
[49:39.340 --> 49:45.400]  So I think what happens is it's important to engage people in dialogue, you know, and see who's the bigger patriot.
[49:45.760 --> 49:51.220]  I mean, I think part of the problem is that people who wave the flag are trying to steal that flag away from us.
[49:51.440 --> 49:53.380]  So I think it's important to...
[49:53.380 --> 50:06.660]  And maybe this is the same question or the same answer, but with these warrantless and administrative warrant searches, how do we get balance back as individuals, you know, in our own cases and as a nation?
[50:06.660 --> 50:08.600]  How do we restore balance?
[50:10.300 --> 50:23.600]  Well, I think the, you know, from our perspective as an anarchist legal collective, we don't believe that the criminal justice system, you know, is a fair system to redress these.
[50:23.600 --> 50:36.800]  We believe that it's important that despite these things that, you know, people go out on the streets, people continue resistance and continue to change society the best that they can.
[50:36.960 --> 50:44.180]  And what we do as the People's Law Collective is attempt to help people mitigate the basic injustice that's in the system.
[50:44.180 --> 50:49.180]  You're probably not going to get the kind of justice you're talking about within the system.
[50:49.380 --> 50:54.140]  We're just here to make sure that people aren't going away for excessively long times.
[50:57.820 --> 51:06.820]  Well, as I look at that document and all its references to so many other acts, it's obvious that this was in the works for a very long time.
[51:07.040 --> 51:09.660]  This was a shopping list that was pre-prepared.
[51:09.660 --> 51:15.660]  This was a wish list, you know, the DOJ and who knows how many other groups it had.
[51:17.000 --> 51:21.220]  I covered a story in the middle of 2001.
[51:21.720 --> 51:32.780]  And it was a congressional hearing where it was revealed offhand, just quite accidentally, that the FISA had been streamlined.
[51:33.080 --> 51:42.300]  FISA application process had been streamlined on the pretext of the Y2K bug, which was going to blow up the world, and didn't.
[51:42.560 --> 51:50.460]  And what I also found, from the way these people were talking, was that it hadn't been rolled back at that time.
[51:50.860 --> 51:57.260]  And one person who was in the FBI was saying, well, we think it should stay where it is.
[51:57.600 --> 52:00.880]  The streamlining of the administrative process should stay where it is.
[52:00.960 --> 52:01.520]  So that was clear.
[52:01.740 --> 52:04.220]  So I did a story that got almost no traffic.
[52:07.180 --> 52:08.580]  And I thought it was shocking.
[52:09.000 --> 52:13.960]  I thought, you know, this is going to be one of the biggest, one of the biggest stories of the year.
[52:15.320 --> 52:17.900]  So I waited a couple of months, and I ran it again.
[52:18.080 --> 52:20.020]  I said, I think you people might have missed this.
[52:21.400 --> 52:23.840]  But we are a technology website to register.
[52:25.140 --> 52:33.960]  And if I did a story with a title like, Xbox Explodes Blows Teenagers Dip Off, it would be slashed out.
[52:34.140 --> 52:40.540]  It would be, you know, referred from everywhere in Europe, Asia, the United States, probably bring our server down.
[52:42.140 --> 52:46.980]  You know, it's really hard to get geeks to give a shit about their rights.
[52:48.060 --> 52:50.220]  So, have you got anything to say about that?
[52:50.440 --> 52:54.900]  Any suggestion or any observations you'd like to share on that?
[52:55.020 --> 52:56.300]  I think it's changing.
[52:56.800 --> 53:01.220]  I mean, we were invited here to speak, which we were not last time.
[53:01.740 --> 53:04.060]  And I think that we're seeing more involvement.
[53:04.820 --> 53:11.900]  I think indie media has done a wonderful job reaching out to geeks and getting them involved.
[53:12.380 --> 53:14.340]  And so, I'm hoping things are getting better.
[53:14.640 --> 53:15.760]  We have to wrap it up.
[53:16.460 --> 53:18.640]  I know the two of us were being in the hall.
[53:18.780 --> 53:19.460]  Are we going to be in the hall?
[53:19.720 --> 53:20.200]  We're going to be in the hall.
[53:20.420 --> 53:23.020]  So, if you have any questions, you can ask us in the hall.
[53:23.280 --> 53:23.740]  Thank you very much.
[53:23.780 --> 53:26.100]  I'm from the National Lawyers Guild, the Mass Defense Committee.
[53:26.680 --> 53:28.120]  And we're going to help.