[00:00.000 --> 00:03.640]  It's ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:04.480 --> 00:09.160]  I cut myself off shaving, now I can't make a call.
[00:09.760 --> 00:11.980]  We couldn't get much worse.
[00:14.740 --> 00:17.360]  The little bump was the best, expect the worst.
[00:17.920 --> 00:19.880]  I hope that's understood.
[00:20.260 --> 00:20.860]  The little bump!
[00:40.800 --> 00:46.540]  And a very good evening to everybody from... The Hotel Pennsylvania, New York.
[00:56.980 --> 01:07.920]  We're live on WBAI New York, and we're live here at the hotel, at the Fifth HOPE Conference here in New York City, which began with a bang this morning and has been going ever since.
[01:08.800 --> 01:10.040]  Tons of people have shown up.
[01:10.180 --> 01:11.860]  We've had all kinds of good talks all throughout the day.
[01:11.860 --> 01:17.360]  And now a special edition of our weekly radio program coming to you live here for the next two hours.
[01:17.780 --> 01:22.060]  This is Emmanuel Goldstein, and we have up here on the panel with us...
[01:22.060 --> 01:23.820]  Gosh, well, Bernie, you're here live.
[01:23.820 --> 01:24.400]  How are you doing?
[01:24.720 --> 01:25.400]  Say hi.
[01:25.500 --> 01:26.220]  You're usually on the phone.
[01:26.860 --> 01:29.320]  I probably sound much better not over Sprint PCS.
[01:30.980 --> 01:31.440]  Yeah.
[01:35.660 --> 01:39.120]  Since we'll never get this opportunity again, can we get a rousing chorus of Sprint Sucks?
[01:39.520 --> 01:40.880]  Sprint Sucks!
[01:41.380 --> 01:42.440]  All right, there you go.
[01:43.580 --> 01:45.440]  I hope some Sprint executive is listening.
[01:47.480 --> 01:48.640]  And Porkchop is here.
[01:48.900 --> 01:49.620]  Say hi, Porkchop.
[01:49.760 --> 01:50.320]  Hello, everyone.
[01:51.040 --> 01:51.840]  And Mike.
[01:52.280 --> 01:52.920]  Hey there.
[01:53.460 --> 01:53.900]  RedHackt.
[01:54.180 --> 01:54.780]  What's up?
[01:55.620 --> 01:56.420]  And who we have here?
[01:56.480 --> 01:56.780]  Jeff.
[01:57.100 --> 01:57.820]  Yes, good evening.
[01:58.120 --> 01:58.560]  And Jim.
[01:58.900 --> 01:59.340]  Hello.
[01:59.600 --> 02:00.300]  And Laszlo.
[02:00.480 --> 02:00.760]  Hello.
[02:01.100 --> 02:01.340]  Okay.
[02:02.060 --> 02:05.460]  Well, basically what we're going to do tonight is we'll talk for a little bit ourselves.
[02:05.600 --> 02:08.900]  We have a whole bunch of special guests who will be popping up.
[02:08.900 --> 02:10.880]  Of course, I have bright lights on me so I can't see anything.
[02:11.140 --> 02:14.380]  So, if the people out there managing the special guests come up.
[02:15.640 --> 02:16.000]  Okay.
[02:16.040 --> 02:18.040]  Now I have sunglasses on and I really can't see a thing.
[02:18.200 --> 02:18.820]  That's like...
[02:20.980 --> 02:23.860]  Just lead them up and we'll put them on.
[02:23.960 --> 02:25.640]  And we'll take questions from the audience.
[02:25.640 --> 02:31.900]  I don't think we can take questions on the phone tonight because, well, we're of limited intelligence and there's only so much we can do at once.
[02:32.760 --> 02:33.080]  Sorry.
[02:33.180 --> 02:33.880]  It's just the way it goes.
[02:35.560 --> 02:39.400]  This is kind of a momentous occasion for us because so many things have happened at once.
[02:40.000 --> 02:43.580]  This is the 20th anniversary of 2600 Magazine, if you can believe that.
[02:52.530 --> 03:06.910]  And I'll tell you, if when we started this thing back in 1984 by sneaking into offices late at night and Xeroxing pieces of paper so we could send them to about 20 people, if I ever thought at that time it was going to get to the stage where we were seen on newsstands and on the radio and having conferences,
[03:06.910 --> 03:09.050]  I never ever would have believed it.
[03:10.550 --> 03:11.450]  But here we are.
[03:11.650 --> 03:18.090]  And it's the 10th anniversary of our first conference, which was called Hackers on Planet Earth, back in 1994, in this very space.
[03:18.790 --> 03:20.470]  How many of you were here for that?
[03:21.210 --> 03:22.090]  Oh, good number.
[03:22.230 --> 03:22.590]  Good number.
[03:22.730 --> 03:23.470]  The rest of you can clap.
[03:23.570 --> 03:23.810]  Go ahead.
[03:29.540 --> 03:32.200]  So, yeah, it's a milestone as far as that goes.
[03:32.760 --> 03:39.580]  And then, of course, yesterday, actually today, officially the Freedom Downtime DVD finally was released.
[03:39.580 --> 03:41.260]  So that's...
[03:43.900 --> 03:47.140]  Now, this is only how many years after it was filmed?
[03:47.500 --> 03:51.560]  Well, it was filmed... the actual footage was taken in 1998.
[03:51.940 --> 03:53.920]  And yes, they made Star Wars in less time.
[03:53.920 --> 03:54.560]  I realize that.
[03:56.060 --> 03:57.960]  We had time to edit the thing.
[03:58.200 --> 03:59.540]  And, of course, we did some more shooting.
[03:59.640 --> 04:00.960]  We waited until Kevin was out of prison.
[04:01.540 --> 04:05.740]  But the DVD, we've actually added a whole lot of features and new languages and things like that.
[04:06.700 --> 04:09.400]  Actually, Porkchop, maybe you can address the whole editing process.
[04:09.540 --> 04:10.640]  That sure took a long time, didn't it?
[04:10.640 --> 04:12.760]  The editing process took a very long time.
[04:13.260 --> 04:17.820]  It's amazing from... we had a huge machine at the time.
[04:18.000 --> 04:25.900]  At the time, we had, I think it was a 100 gigabyte RAID array and another 100 gigabytes of non-RAID storage.
[04:25.900 --> 04:31.150]  And a really fast 333 megahertz Macintosh running.
[04:31.150 --> 04:32.640]  I think it was like OS 8.
[04:33.060 --> 04:35.320]  I think we'd just gone from 7 to 8 or something like that.
[04:35.440 --> 04:36.640]  It was one of the upgrades.
[04:36.880 --> 04:37.440]  It's a G3.
[04:37.600 --> 04:38.120]  It was really nice.
[04:38.270 --> 04:39.340]  It was a very nice machine.
[04:39.340 --> 04:41.790]  It was the biggest machine I had ever used in my life.
[04:42.940 --> 04:46.200]  And now I have a 1 terabyte array and, you know...
[04:46.700 --> 04:48.320]  But we're not editing movies, you know?
[04:48.400 --> 04:48.980]  That's the thing.
[04:48.980 --> 04:53.220]  We were editing movies on these pieces of equipment that at the time were state of the art.
[04:53.650 --> 05:00.120]  When we made the movie, we didn't know how we were going to edit it because we certainly couldn't afford the professional editing systems.
[05:00.120 --> 05:01.500]  We couldn't even afford to rent them.
[05:02.060 --> 05:03.120]  So we had no idea.
[05:03.120 --> 05:05.150]  And then this program called EditDV came along.
[05:05.640 --> 05:09.360]  And we sure learned a lot about that program and its limitations.
[05:09.710 --> 05:11.700]  It was good and it was bad at the same time.
[05:11.820 --> 05:12.880]  It was good that we got our stuff done.
[05:12.880 --> 05:15.000]  It was bad that it had bugs at every turn.
[05:15.210 --> 05:17.860]  It gave us hope and then took it away.
[05:18.060 --> 05:22.100]  But the important thing is we got through it and finished it.
[05:22.240 --> 05:23.830]  And hopefully it all works.
[05:23.960 --> 05:25.360]  So enjoy if you get a copy.
[05:26.180 --> 05:27.320]  So there's that milestone.
[05:27.320 --> 05:30.360]  And, of course, just having Kevin Mitnick here for the first time ever.
[05:38.810 --> 05:39.810]  Let me tell you the story.
[05:40.870 --> 05:45.170]  1994, at the first conference at the Hotel Pennsylvania, Kevin was on the run.
[05:45.610 --> 05:50.750]  He was being pursued by the FBI and all kinds of law enforcement agencies for violating his probation.
[05:51.010 --> 05:52.350]  And he didn't want to go back to prison.
[05:52.450 --> 05:54.790]  He didn't want to go back to the eight-month solitary type of a thing.
[05:54.930 --> 06:00.790]  So he was living a double life and having somebody else's name, I think, in North Carolina at that point.
[06:01.430 --> 06:02.970]  And he would call occasionally.
[06:02.970 --> 06:06.770]  While we were having our first conference, he would call us on the wall phones.
[06:06.770 --> 06:08.690]  of the hotel.
[06:08.890 --> 06:11.170]  I don't know how he transferred himself to the wall phones, but he did it.
[06:11.630 --> 06:13.370]  And he would ask how the conference was going.
[06:13.490 --> 06:14.770]  And, boy, I really wish I could be there.
[06:14.910 --> 06:16.110]  Too bad I'm not there, you know.
[06:16.250 --> 06:18.390]  But if I showed up, of course, they'd arrest me on the spot.
[06:18.850 --> 06:19.190]  Emmanuel?
[06:19.430 --> 06:19.610]  Yes.
[06:19.730 --> 06:26.670]  You may recall that we had a lot of people wearing Kevin Mitnick masks at our first HOPE conference here in 94.
[06:27.090 --> 06:28.190]  Did you make those masks?
[06:28.430 --> 06:28.610]  I did.
[06:29.710 --> 06:31.050]  They were actually...
[06:31.830 --> 06:33.550]  Kevin, I apologize for you.
[06:33.550 --> 06:35.750]  I had to take that picture of you from the New York Times.
[06:36.170 --> 06:37.910]  And it was the only picture I could get of you.
[06:38.750 --> 06:41.710]  And this was after the whole Agent Steal arrest at...
[06:42.390 --> 06:42.830]  Where was that?
[06:42.890 --> 06:43.250]  Def Con?
[06:43.410 --> 06:43.810]  They were looking...
[06:43.810 --> 06:45.750]  The FBI was looking for you and arrested the wrong guy.
[06:45.890 --> 06:49.950]  No, that actually was the electronic privacy or something.
[06:50.350 --> 06:50.710]  Okay.
[06:51.230 --> 06:52.090]  Some other conference.
[06:52.090 --> 06:53.150]  They were all there.
[06:53.370 --> 06:55.190]  It wasn't a hacker conference.
[06:55.310 --> 06:57.290]  It was a computer privacy conference.
[06:57.510 --> 07:01.090]  And the FBI actually tried to make some arrests there.
[07:01.310 --> 07:05.710]  So the person they arrested had a similar sounding name to Kevin's handle.
[07:05.830 --> 07:06.630]  What was the...
[07:06.630 --> 07:07.430]  Well, here's the thing.
[07:07.610 --> 07:07.710]  Okay.
[07:07.890 --> 07:11.290]  There were three people that got interrogated there.
[07:11.730 --> 07:13.650]  Actually, it was called Computers, Freedom, and Privacy.
[07:13.770 --> 07:15.390]  And about the only thing they had was computers.
[07:15.830 --> 07:17.190]  They didn't have the freedom or the privacy.
[07:17.370 --> 07:18.470]  It took place in Chicago.
[07:19.070 --> 07:21.470]  And three people were harassed.
[07:22.070 --> 07:24.170]  And this was the first we had heard that Kevin was on the run.
[07:24.970 --> 07:29.150]  A person who looked like Kevin, who lived in New York, was questioned.
[07:29.450 --> 07:29.950]  Right away.
[07:30.090 --> 07:31.630]  These people are real Keystone cops.
[07:31.790 --> 07:33.350]  If someone looked like Kevin, they got questioned.
[07:34.050 --> 07:36.190]  This guy who looked like Agent Steall.
[07:36.510 --> 07:40.850]  Agent Steal being a federal informant that had been trying to get Kevin arrested for years.
[07:41.050 --> 07:42.930]  But then had also gone on the run himself.
[07:43.810 --> 07:45.490]  Somebody who looked like him was questioned.
[07:45.490 --> 07:47.550]  And they actually asked if they could see his leg.
[07:47.710 --> 07:50.510]  Because Agent Steal has a wooden leg, apparently.
[07:51.010 --> 07:53.310]  So, that was their way of knowing if it was him or not.
[07:53.470 --> 07:59.530]  And then, the best one, they questioned our own Robert Steal, ex-CIA intelligence expert.
[07:59.530 --> 08:00.310]  Our first speaker today.
[08:00.610 --> 08:01.950]  Who was going to be on the show, I believe.
[08:02.910 --> 08:04.790]  And he was Agent Steal, I guess.
[08:04.890 --> 08:05.930]  And they got confused.
[08:06.170 --> 08:08.990]  And thought it was the other Agent Steal.
[08:09.150 --> 08:09.690]  And I don't know.
[08:10.390 --> 08:10.970]  So, yeah.
[08:11.110 --> 08:13.490]  They came and they questioned a whole lot of people.
[08:13.490 --> 08:14.670]  But they never found Kevin.
[08:15.250 --> 08:16.150]  In 1997.
[08:16.510 --> 08:17.490]  Of course, they did find Kevin later.
[08:17.650 --> 08:18.550]  But not at that time.
[08:18.650 --> 08:19.010]  1997.
[08:19.350 --> 08:21.150]  To help the FBI with their search.
[08:21.330 --> 08:24.110]  We had many people wearing Kevin Mitnick masks here.
[08:24.270 --> 08:27.210]  Just to show that a lot of people look like Kevin.
[08:27.470 --> 08:28.070]  That's right.
[08:28.210 --> 08:28.550]  That's right.
[08:29.150 --> 08:32.610]  I remember, in fact, Robert Steele was giving the keynote speech back then in 1994.
[08:32.830 --> 08:34.610]  And about eight of you came up with the masks.
[08:34.650 --> 08:37.850]  And he got really scared seeing this happen.
[08:38.310 --> 08:39.570]  It's on video, too, somewhere.
[08:40.490 --> 08:41.970]  1997 was Beyond HOPE.
[08:41.970 --> 08:43.190]  How many of you were at Beyond HOPE?
[08:44.070 --> 08:44.390]  Okay.
[08:44.810 --> 08:45.050]  Good.
[08:45.450 --> 08:47.010]  That's a, you know, a handful.
[08:47.170 --> 08:47.770]  But it's a good handful.
[08:48.570 --> 08:49.570]  He was in prison then.
[08:49.690 --> 08:51.570]  Again, he called us on my cell phone.
[08:51.770 --> 08:52.470]  Somehow collect.
[08:52.630 --> 08:53.410]  I don't know how he did that.
[08:53.550 --> 08:55.470]  But he said, you know, it's too bad.
[08:55.490 --> 08:56.290]  I wish I was there.
[08:56.510 --> 08:56.970]  The same thing.
[08:57.110 --> 08:57.550]  Same speech.
[08:57.710 --> 08:58.230]  Different scenery.
[08:59.490 --> 09:02.090]  And then in 2000, he was out of prison.
[09:02.330 --> 09:04.050]  He had been released in January of 2000.
[09:04.730 --> 09:06.890]  And in fact, we had the premiere of Freedom Down Time.
[09:06.990 --> 09:08.550]  How many of you were at the premiere of Freedom Down Time?
[09:08.650 --> 09:09.670]  That six-hour marathon.
[09:11.770 --> 09:14.270]  Most of it was trying to figure out how to get the video to work properly.
[09:14.310 --> 09:18.410]  But once we did that, that was a very rare version because we only showed that version once.
[09:18.490 --> 09:19.870]  We did some further editing after that.
[09:19.930 --> 09:20.350]  Right, Porkchop?
[09:20.550 --> 09:23.530]  Yeah, we cut out a few scenes to shorten it a little bit.
[09:23.630 --> 09:24.970]  A couple of the unnecessary bits.
[09:24.970 --> 09:28.330]  Yeah, but a lot of the scenes are back in the DVD, so you can see it there if you want.
[09:29.050 --> 09:32.190]  Again, Kevin was invited to attend the premiere of the film.
[09:32.370 --> 09:34.790]  They wouldn't let him do that as part of his supervised release.
[09:34.990 --> 09:38.010]  So again, I got the call from him saying he wished I could be here, but couldn't.
[09:38.510 --> 09:39.930]  And then same thing in 2002.
[09:40.210 --> 09:41.370]  They wouldn't let him travel.
[09:42.150 --> 09:44.690]  His supervised release ran out in January of 2003.
[09:44.950 --> 09:45.990]  Here we are in 2004.
[09:46.590 --> 09:49.150]  Nothing stopped him from being here, and he gave a great keynote this afternoon.
[09:49.790 --> 09:53.990]  And boy, you know, I've seen keynotes here, and I don't think I've ever seen one as packed.
[09:53.990 --> 09:58.890]  We had all three rooms in a row just packed with people, and it was great.
[09:59.490 --> 10:01.510]  So that's what we've been at so far.
[10:01.630 --> 10:04.810]  We've had a whole lot of other talks as well and a whole lot more scheduled.
[10:04.830 --> 10:14.010]  So if you're out there listening in radio land and you want to come down, it's not too late to book a plane ticket or just run down the street if you're in New York already and come to the Hotel Pennsylvania.
[10:14.010 --> 10:17.250]  It's across the street from Madison Square Garden and Penn Station.
[10:17.550 --> 10:22.030]  And there's a whole weekend left, Friday and Saturday, and Sunday too.
[10:22.030 --> 10:23.590]  We still have things going on until midnight.
[10:24.310 --> 10:25.110]  And we have the movie room.
[10:25.210 --> 10:27.890]  Red Hack, tell us something about the movie room that's going on all night long.
[10:28.650 --> 10:34.010]  Well, the movie room, we've been running movies, documentaries, all sorts of films all day.
[10:34.270 --> 10:38.050]  I've seen quite a few people in there, and they seem to have enjoyed the films.
[10:38.890 --> 10:40.130]  Overnight, we'll still be running.
[10:40.690 --> 10:44.290]  From 2.30 to 8, we will be taking requests.
[10:44.610 --> 10:53.590]  You can, you know, if you have a movie with you or if you'd like to see something that you missed or, you know, anything that you'd like to request, you can come by and say, you know, I'm awake.
[10:55.650 --> 10:56.850]  Could you play this for it?
[10:57.010 --> 10:58.430]  And we'll play it for you.
[10:58.790 --> 10:59.830]  But Red Hack, I'm confused.
[10:59.990 --> 11:03.910]  Are there so many films that we can actually run this thing 24 hours?
[11:04.510 --> 11:05.690]  Yeah, there's a ton of films.
[11:07.250 --> 11:08.170]  What kind of things?
[11:08.190 --> 11:09.130]  What have we shown so far?
[11:09.350 --> 11:16.130]  Well, so far, we've shown Hippies from Hell, which is a documentary about a Dutch group.
[11:16.890 --> 11:19.230]  Actually, a bunch of the people here were in it.
[11:20.610 --> 11:24.170]  Also, we've shown a Norwegian film, NYC Hackers.
[11:25.690 --> 11:26.570]  What else have we shown?
[11:27.070 --> 11:29.550]  We're going to be showing Revolution OS tomorrow.
[11:30.430 --> 11:34.270]  We're going to be showing Pirate Video 9.
[11:34.270 --> 11:35.990]  Pirate Video 9 tomorrow, when we get it.
[11:36.370 --> 11:38.210]  It's coming on a train from Amtrak right now.
[11:38.610 --> 11:41.690]  We have a documentary that was filmed at H2K2.
[11:43.030 --> 11:50.330]  But it's on a server in Austria on a 600 megabyte DivX image.
[11:50.470 --> 11:55.170]  If anyone at the conference can volunteer to download that and burn it onto a CD, we can show that tomorrow.
[11:56.490 --> 12:02.510]  Also, we have tonight at midnight a bunch of interesting movies that you gave.
[12:02.610 --> 12:04.270]  One of them being Ma Bell and Her Delinquent Children.
[12:04.530 --> 12:05.810]  You want to elaborate a bit on that?
[12:06.090 --> 12:07.470]  Ma Bell and Her Delinquent Children.
[12:07.610 --> 12:09.870]  Someone gave that to us at the first HOPE conference.
[12:10.070 --> 12:12.550]  And it's a great film, about 10 minutes long.
[12:13.250 --> 12:15.890]  Just about phone freaks back in the early 70s.
[12:16.370 --> 12:19.670]  You know, rotary phones and blue boxes and that kind of thing.
[12:19.670 --> 12:22.890]  And it's amazing how much hasn't changed.
[12:23.030 --> 12:25.250]  It's also amazing, of course, how much has changed over the years.
[12:25.550 --> 12:28.690]  But that's a real study of the past.
[12:28.850 --> 12:35.290]  And I think it's also why it shows it's so important to document things and to record this unique culture that we're a part of.
[12:36.050 --> 12:39.490]  And I'm just glad we're all here to share that experience.
[12:39.670 --> 12:41.410]  Let's move over to the other side of the panel here.
[12:41.410 --> 12:45.210]  And, well, Laszlo, it's been a while since we've seen you on the radio.
[12:45.550 --> 12:46.030]  Correct.
[12:46.630 --> 12:50.370]  What's new in the world of corporate radio, which is what you're generally a part of?
[12:51.390 --> 12:56.910]  Well, some of the scary things that are happening, sometimes I'm interviewed on morning radio shows.
[12:58.410 --> 13:19.290]  And some of the morning shows are just kind of disappearing because the radio stations are suspending people for improper speech, afraid that if an FCC ruling does go through that, you know, people will think that they're not actually trying to crack down on this.
[13:19.650 --> 13:22.510]  And so these people, these DJs, just disappear.
[13:23.490 --> 13:27.750]  And then they suddenly come back, and then they're not allowed to talk about why they were gone.
[13:27.930 --> 13:30.590]  Like, maybe they just joke that they were in rehab or something.
[13:30.830 --> 13:35.370]  So what, they take them to room 101 and then they come back and they're all cured.
[13:35.510 --> 13:36.130]  Is that how it works?
[13:36.450 --> 13:37.690]  So Disney's been doing this.
[13:37.690 --> 13:48.770]  And talking to radio DJs, the ones that are left, that, you know, because Clear Channel has these radio farms, where they go, moo, you know, and you just introduce songs, and all the sound files go out to like Idaho and Kentucky.
[13:50.910 --> 14:05.830]  But a lot of people in radio are really nervous about the, the new proposed fines for indecency, because it's changing to fining broadcast companies, to fining individual broadcasters.
[14:05.970 --> 14:13.850]  Which means if Emanuel Goldstein says something that offends somebody out there this evening, and they send in a complaint to the FCC...
[14:13.850 --> 14:15.510]  I already have, when I said my name.
[14:15.650 --> 14:24.670]  Emanuel Goldstein, it won't be the radio station that gets served, it'll be Emanuel to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars.
[14:24.670 --> 14:27.490]  So there's a lot of people in...
[14:27.490 --> 14:32.690]  Some of the cool people that are left in commercial radio right now, are extremely concerned about this.
[14:32.830 --> 14:36.310]  And both Democrats and Republicans are on board with it.
[14:36.570 --> 14:43.470]  So I think that's going to cause some serious shake-ups, and more censorship in the media.
[14:45.450 --> 14:47.370]  Jim, you were here at the very First Help.
[14:47.470 --> 14:49.410]  Tell us something about your talk back in 1994.
[14:51.190 --> 14:52.670]  Oh, boy, I was so young.
[14:53.050 --> 14:54.830]  How many of you remember Jim at the First Help?
[14:55.310 --> 14:59.950]  Or under my previous alias, Red Balaclava, about the metric cards?
[15:00.070 --> 15:01.710]  He tried to hide, we all knew who he was.
[15:02.310 --> 15:04.990]  Even in the New York Times with a bag over your head, we knew who you were.
[15:05.130 --> 15:07.610]  It wasn't a bag, it was a balaclava, a ski mask.
[15:08.830 --> 15:13.210]  I mean, we've all seen you after a late night with a bag over your head, so naturally you assumed.
[15:13.270 --> 15:14.130]  That was with your wife.
[15:14.610 --> 15:15.470]  Yeah, I...
[15:17.050 --> 15:17.490]  Joke.
[15:17.610 --> 15:19.110]  Enough of our dirty laundry.
[15:19.570 --> 15:22.610]  Yeah, it's great being here for the fifth time around.
[15:24.470 --> 15:25.590]  And, I don't know.
[15:25.950 --> 15:28.870]  Well, back then you were talking about the new MetroCard.
[15:28.990 --> 15:29.890]  The new MetroCard.
[15:30.110 --> 15:31.590]  Which was the subway system here in New York City.
[15:32.250 --> 15:34.390]  And how insecure it was?
[15:34.570 --> 15:35.690]  How it would never work, maybe?
[15:36.710 --> 15:42.750]  We had our beliefs about its security, some of which were accurate, some of which were inaccurate.
[15:43.230 --> 15:45.730]  Essentially, it boils down to what I said way back then.
[15:45.990 --> 15:50.630]  If you want to get one ride out of a MetroCard, you pretty much can with almost no trouble.
[15:51.250 --> 15:56.710]  Every so often you hear about people getting busted for bending a MetroCard and using it for one ride.
[15:56.710 --> 16:12.450]  Or, as recently happened at a station near Central Park, somebody who is bending discarded MetroCards and selling the rides to tourists at half price, got into a little altercation with his competition and ended up in a box cutter fight.
[16:14.930 --> 16:17.230]  Well, so, yeah, it sounds interesting.
[16:17.530 --> 16:32.830]  And the other side of MetroCards is also something that I spoke about at the first hope, which is that if you decide to go on a crime spree, don't take the subway or at least don't use a MetroCard, although now you can't do otherwise, because they can be tracked.
[16:33.070 --> 16:42.110]  And there's at least two cases of murders that were cracked by the fact that the alias provided fell apart when they checked the guy's MetroCard.
[16:42.110 --> 16:45.010]  So, if you kill somebody, you should jump the turnstile.
[16:45.290 --> 16:46.750]  Jump the turnstile if you kill somebody, right.
[16:46.950 --> 16:53.730]  Don't have your card say, oh, yes, ten minutes after the killing, he was on the lam at the station where the murder occurred.
[16:54.030 --> 16:58.570]  Well, of course, all you have to do is get a MetroCard that went through a turnstile at a certain time.
[16:58.690 --> 17:05.970]  You could probably make quite a lot of money in the criminal underground by selling MetroCards that were used at certain times that are convenient to the criminal.
[17:06.170 --> 17:09.730]  And, you know, like, you know, did you kill somebody at this time?
[17:09.730 --> 17:13.930]  Wouldn't it be nice if you had a MetroCard that showed that you were in Brooklyn at this time instead?
[17:14.190 --> 17:19.570]  We're planning at the 6th HOPE to have a booth in which we will sell alibi MetroCards.
[17:19.790 --> 17:22.350]  I'm just saying it's an idea, you know, we should explore it.
[17:22.530 --> 17:23.290]  Alibi Cards.
[17:23.810 --> 17:24.470]  Jeff, welcome.
[17:24.910 --> 17:25.870]  Thank you, thank you.
[17:26.750 --> 17:29.470]  Tell us your recollections of HOPE and other things.
[17:29.470 --> 17:30.870]  This is actually my third.
[17:31.450 --> 17:34.450]  The first time I came, it was very interesting.
[17:34.710 --> 17:37.350]  I helped to set up the whole first day.
[17:37.550 --> 17:42.730]  And at the end of the day, they said, somebody just got here now and he needs some help.
[17:42.810 --> 17:43.470]  Who wants to go?
[17:43.610 --> 17:44.790]  So I, I'll go.
[17:44.950 --> 17:45.710]  I went downstairs.
[17:45.950 --> 17:48.290]  And that was the first time I met Bernie S.
[17:48.490 --> 17:52.850]  And he had the little machine that we were going to print all of the badges that year.
[17:53.310 --> 17:57.910]  And we were literally, I was up all night just printing badges.
[17:58.150 --> 17:59.870]  It took 90 seconds per badge.
[18:00.330 --> 18:05.990]  And Bernie had the room so I insisted at 4.30 go to bed, you know, I can sit up with this.
[18:06.150 --> 18:07.390]  I already missed my buses.
[18:08.170 --> 18:11.490]  But we spent a lot of time and we had some fun.
[18:12.050 --> 18:13.850]  Yeah, I think I've got one in my wallet too.
[18:14.050 --> 18:14.810]  Well, now you have two.
[18:14.950 --> 18:15.530]  This is, yeah.
[18:17.430 --> 18:21.130]  How many of you have the collection, all the different badges and things?
[18:21.410 --> 18:22.690]  Yeah, we try to make it different every year.
[18:22.850 --> 18:23.670]  This year we have armbands.
[18:23.830 --> 18:25.110]  So, who expected that?
[18:26.590 --> 18:28.910]  Everyone's asking, well, what's the card going to be like this year?
[18:29.050 --> 18:30.370]  How, how high tech are you going to go?
[18:30.490 --> 18:34.990]  Well, we went the other direction and we, we have Velcro armbands.
[18:35.750 --> 18:36.910]  Mike, maybe you can say something.
[18:37.070 --> 18:39.510]  I must say, no, no less difficult to procure than some high tech solution.
[18:39.610 --> 18:39.730]  Yeah.
[18:39.910 --> 18:43.790]  I mean, basically we were told at certain points that this is impossible to make.
[18:44.050 --> 18:46.150]  You want to tell us something about the saga that you went through?
[18:46.670 --> 18:53.510]  First of all, there are no companies apparently in the United States or anywhere that manufacture armbands just as, as a stock line item.
[18:54.310 --> 18:58.550]  Um, so, you know, finding a factory that would do this.
[18:58.670 --> 19:02.950]  I, there's a, there's a, a type, a segment of the garment industry called a cutting room.
[19:02.950 --> 19:12.690]  Uh, I obtained the phone number of a cutting room and called them up and said, uh, I would like to buy you some fabric and have you cut it for me into armband sized pieces.
[19:12.910 --> 19:14.850]  And was told, no, we don't do that.
[19:15.070 --> 19:21.490]  So, if anyone can explain to me what a cutting room does, if not cut fabric, I would really like to know.
[19:22.230 --> 19:28.210]  And, and, and so this whole thing, uh, until we finally found a small factory that was willing to manufacture them for us.
[19:28.210 --> 19:32.250]  And, uh, then we had them printed and, and they're on your arms today if you're here.
[19:33.130 --> 19:35.810]  It's actually, uh, Mike did a whole lot more than that.
[19:36.030 --> 19:41.430]  Uh, spending weeks and weeks, uh, tracking down various vendors, trying, finding lost packages at one point.
[19:41.930 --> 19:46.550]  And, uh, just getting people to do things that they're supposed to do in the first place and getting them to do them right.
[19:46.790 --> 19:47.490]  So, um...
[19:47.490 --> 19:52.250]  UPS still thinks that approximately one of the six boxes of armbands is lost.
[19:52.570 --> 19:53.030]  So, uh...
[19:53.030 --> 19:53.170]  Yeah.
[19:53.290 --> 19:57.170]  If you're wearing an armband from that lost box, you know, UPS owes you money for it.
[19:57.170 --> 19:58.010]  Yeah.
[19:59.870 --> 20:00.310]  Um...
[20:00.310 --> 20:00.690]  What else?
[20:01.110 --> 20:02.710]  Well, I guess, um, maybe...
[20:02.710 --> 20:03.010]  Go ahead, Jim.
[20:03.450 --> 20:09.730]  I, I have something that sort of relates to, to our, our previous HOPE conferences and, and is current as well.
[20:10.170 --> 20:18.990]  Do you remember the good old days where the phone company and the defense department would send out notices saying, the hackers are having a convention?
[20:19.390 --> 20:20.690]  Batten down the hatches?
[20:21.170 --> 20:22.810]  You remember those, don't you, Emmanuel?
[20:22.930 --> 20:24.130]  Well, it happened last time, too.
[20:24.530 --> 20:24.610]  Right.
[20:24.610 --> 20:25.990]  And I expect it to happen again this time.
[20:25.990 --> 20:35.410]  Well, well, I did, I did some looking on the net earlier today and yesterday, hoping to find what the latest, uh, alert was about.
[20:35.790 --> 20:39.390]  And it turns out, I can't find any alert about us.
[20:39.730 --> 20:44.230]  However, I do know what the defense department is afraid of now.
[20:44.710 --> 20:46.070]  Would you like to see it?
[20:46.070 --> 20:47.050]  Yes.
[20:47.470 --> 20:47.870]  Yes.
[20:48.390 --> 20:48.950]  Yes.
[20:48.950 --> 20:49.510]  I think so.
[20:50.410 --> 20:51.170]  Coke cans.
[20:51.890 --> 20:52.730]  Oh, yes.
[20:54.050 --> 20:54.530]  Yep.
[20:56.250 --> 20:59.410]  You're, you're referring, of course, to the whole GPS thing.
[20:59.550 --> 21:00.590]  Ah, yes.
[21:00.750 --> 21:01.270]  Yes, indeed.
[21:01.630 --> 21:03.470]  We spoke about this a few months ago.
[21:03.850 --> 21:05.210]  Coca-Cola has a contest.
[21:06.310 --> 21:08.350]  Well, that's, that's not one of them.
[21:08.490 --> 21:09.130]  I'm not a winner.
[21:11.090 --> 21:13.190]  Everybody who drinks Coca-Cola is a winner.
[21:14.370 --> 21:15.490]  That's my Coke.
[21:15.630 --> 21:16.090]  Don't drink it.
[21:16.390 --> 21:16.550]  Oh.
[21:17.390 --> 21:22.450]  Coca-Cola has a contest where they have 120 cans nationwide.
[21:23.650 --> 21:26.270]  We, we were speculating on what this was.
[21:26.430 --> 21:29.570]  Bernie and I were sure it was some sort of RFID with a GPS.
[21:30.030 --> 21:30.970]  It's a cell phone.
[21:31.370 --> 21:35.270]  They've put a cell phone with an auto dialer in 120 Coke cans.
[21:35.470 --> 21:38.310]  And what happens is, you can only talk to Coca-Cola.
[21:38.590 --> 21:53.670]  And at that point, they say, okay, sometime in the next three weeks, at any time, at any place, we will swoop in, perhaps with a helicopter, because it's more impressive when we film it, and, and give you some incredible gift.
[21:53.990 --> 21:56.310]  Maybe an SUV, maybe, I don't know what.
[21:56.770 --> 22:04.750]  Well, it turns out that the Defense Information Systems Agency's, agency, thinks that this is a high security risk.
[22:06.510 --> 22:13.750]  Because, heaven knows, they could swoop in on a member of DISA, or whatever the acronym is pronounced, in a secure area.
[22:13.750 --> 22:18.870]  And you can't have Coca-Cola and its helicopters over Area 51, for sure.
[22:20.970 --> 22:30.190]  So now, they've sent out a memo telling everyone to treat cans of Coke as if they were any sort of two-way radio.
[22:30.410 --> 22:32.330]  The same security measures.
[22:33.410 --> 22:35.810]  So this is what they spend their time worrying about, huh?
[22:35.930 --> 22:38.750]  They don't have to worry about us bringing them down.
[22:38.750 --> 22:40.310]  They can do it themselves.
[22:40.850 --> 22:43.130]  But it, it would be fun to see the U.S.
[22:43.270 --> 22:45.770]  military and Coca-Cola, like, in a big firefight, though.
[22:46.310 --> 22:46.710]  That...
[22:52.470 --> 22:54.170]  I think, I think Coke might win.
[22:54.510 --> 22:54.690]  Right.
[22:55.950 --> 22:56.630]  There was a...
[22:56.630 --> 22:58.950]  There was a story about Wi-Fi in the Defense Department.
[22:59.070 --> 22:59.770]  Is that what you're going to talk about?
[22:59.870 --> 23:03.610]  Well, no, there was a similar story a few years ago, during the big Furby craze.
[23:03.670 --> 23:09.730]  Remember those little, horrible little dolls that could, like, record what you were saying, and play them back in weird intonations?
[23:09.730 --> 23:16.270]  Uh, the National Security Agency and the CIA were very upset that, uh, their employees are bringing Furbies into their office.
[23:16.510 --> 23:21.650]  And the Furbies are recording classified information and blurting it out in weird intonations.
[23:22.290 --> 23:27.330]  So, uh, that's another case where the, uh, our government is very afraid of these common items.
[23:27.530 --> 23:29.530]  But what happened in the last week or so?
[23:29.590 --> 23:38.330]  There was something involving wireless, uh, communication, and the Defense Department realizing that, hey, they can, they can get this outside the building in the parking lot.
[23:38.330 --> 23:39.350]  How do we turn this off?
[23:40.450 --> 23:45.350]  Uh, you're referring to the Department of Homeland Security and set up a Wi-Fi network to connect from one building to another.
[23:45.610 --> 23:53.950]  One, one, one engineer or employee decided to access his, uh, network in a new building that he couldn't access after he moved.
[23:54.050 --> 23:55.370]  So he set up a Wi-Fi link.
[23:55.610 --> 23:57.450]  And, uh, it was open and unencrypted.
[23:57.670 --> 24:01.110]  And the Department of Homeland Security is insecure as all get out.
[24:02.730 --> 24:04.170]  So what, they, did they shut it down?
[24:04.330 --> 24:05.530]  Or are they just passing memos around?
[24:05.530 --> 24:08.750]  Well, I imagine after it was on CNN they shut it down, but...
[24:09.910 --> 24:10.790]  You never know.
[24:11.230 --> 24:13.350]  Don't have so much confidence in their abilities.
[24:14.390 --> 24:18.010]  Um, so, uh, does anybody else have a story they'd like to, uh, make reference to?
[24:18.130 --> 24:25.130]  Or something perhaps that, uh, is a memorable story of the past, say, year or two years since we were, uh, here at the last conference?
[24:26.110 --> 24:26.450]  Nobody?
[24:26.910 --> 24:28.030]  Boy, it's just like being on the air.
[24:29.730 --> 24:32.370]  Okay, well, I have some letters that I can read from people who have written in.
[24:32.750 --> 24:35.730]  Um, how many of you have written into Off the Hook ever in your lives?
[24:35.970 --> 24:36.550]  Oh, look at that.
[24:36.670 --> 24:37.590]  That's our audience, right there.
[24:39.670 --> 24:41.210]  Okay, you're a little more enthusiastic there.
[24:42.070 --> 24:45.330]  Uh, OTH at 2600.com is, uh, our address.
[24:46.170 --> 24:49.130]  And our show is usually heard Wednesday nights from 7 to 8 p.m.
[24:49.430 --> 24:50.650]  on WBAI in New York.
[24:51.130 --> 24:54.550]  Uh, and we're on now until 10 o'clock, also on WBAI in New York.
[24:54.550 --> 24:56.270]  And let's hear it for WBAI, you know?
[25:04.260 --> 25:04.620]  Amen.
[25:05.960 --> 25:12.600]  Where else could you possibly do a show like Off the Hook and so many of the other programs that they have on a weekly basis?
[25:13.040 --> 25:14.940]  Uh, we're very lucky here in New York.
[25:15.040 --> 25:25.040]  I know a lot of you are from different parts of the world, different parts of the country, where stations like BAI do not exist, and where you just treat it to the same clear channel crap, uh, coming from all different angles, right, Laszlo?
[25:25.260 --> 25:28.180]  Some cities have, like, every single station owned by the same people.
[25:28.420 --> 25:29.260]  It's horrendous.
[25:29.400 --> 25:29.860]  It's unbelievable.
[25:29.860 --> 25:31.900]  And then you get satellite radio and they own part of that too.
[25:32.580 --> 25:32.980]  Emanuel?
[25:33.260 --> 25:33.920]  They own everything.
[25:34.000 --> 25:46.000]  There was actually, um, a town out in the Midwest where, uh, there was an emergency situation and the police couldn't get in contact with anyone in any of the six radio stations because they were operated by one person who was out to lunch or something.
[25:46.220 --> 25:46.600]  Unbelievable.
[25:46.880 --> 25:51.900]  But here we have in New York, we have a station that, uh, has all kinds of interesting things.
[25:52.000 --> 25:53.160]  Always live people there.
[25:53.260 --> 25:57.320]  There are definitely live people right now at the radio station manning this broadcast, thank you, by the way.
[25:57.320 --> 26:01.440]  Uh, so, as long as there's a station like WBAI in New York, there is hope.
[26:01.600 --> 26:05.060]  And I urge everybody here to join the station one way or another.
[26:05.540 --> 26:16.660]  Uh, for 25 bucks, you can be a member of the station and not only that, you can vote and, and, and move ahead in a particular direction so that the station doesn't fall off track like it did a couple of years ago because that's always a threat.
[26:17.120 --> 26:23.400]  And, uh, believe me, when you have a 50,000 watt station in the middle of the FM dial in New York City, a lot of people want that kind of control.
[26:23.860 --> 26:24.700]  A lot of people.
[26:24.840 --> 26:26.080]  So it's, um, we're lucky.
[26:26.180 --> 26:29.060]  We're lucky we have this resource and I hope we, uh, fight hard to protect it.
[26:29.800 --> 26:32.520]  Um, so yeah, we're being broadcast live over the radio stations.
[26:32.720 --> 26:33.540]  I sure hope we are.
[26:33.720 --> 26:34.880]  We, have we verified that?
[26:35.400 --> 26:37.120]  We are being, okay, good, good.
[26:37.300 --> 26:43.440]  You should mention too, Emmanuel, that this is also the, the call letters are 99.5, not the call letters, the frequency.
[26:44.220 --> 26:46.860]  It's simulcast on shortwave, 7415.
[26:47.260 --> 26:48.380]  Not right now though, is it?
[26:48.500 --> 26:49.180]  Is it on right now?
[26:49.260 --> 26:49.520]  No.
[26:49.800 --> 26:50.880]  No, it's not.
[26:51.040 --> 26:53.220]  No, but there is a shortwave station that simulcast our signal.
[26:53.240 --> 26:53.860]  On Wednesdays.
[26:53.960 --> 26:58.940]  And we always get letters from people, maybe some of you are here, that want to simulcast the radio station as well.
[26:59.100 --> 27:00.680]  They're off the hook on Wednesday nights.
[27:00.820 --> 27:02.960]  And of course, there's no problem doing that at all.
[27:03.020 --> 27:07.460]  You don't have to get, uh, certified letters from us or lawyers giving permission or anything like that.
[27:07.620 --> 27:09.500]  If you want to simulcast, go right ahead.
[27:09.500 --> 27:12.320]  As long as, you know, you give credit to the show and to the station.
[27:12.640 --> 27:13.680]  That's not a problem at all.
[27:13.940 --> 27:15.180]  And you don't play commercials in between.
[27:15.440 --> 27:16.220]  Don't play commercials.
[27:16.660 --> 27:20.800]  The audio streaming is taken care of by Junes, who's sitting right there, but it won't come up.
[27:20.800 --> 27:22.660]  Junes, you're going to be our first celebrity guest.
[27:22.760 --> 27:23.060]  Come on up.
[27:26.870 --> 27:28.890]  The great thing about what Junes does is that...
[27:28.890 --> 27:29.910]  If you've ever listened...
[27:29.910 --> 27:30.210]  Go ahead.
[27:30.370 --> 27:31.170]  We get to have callers.
[27:31.230 --> 27:38.750]  I mean, we have callers from all around the world, and it's just kind of, it's great to get an outside perspective when we're talking about, you know, local, local topics.
[27:39.090 --> 27:39.370]  Mm-hmm.
[27:39.490 --> 27:45.610]  If you ever listen to the station over the internet, it's most likely because of Junes' efforts that you're able to do that.
[27:46.690 --> 27:50.130]  Week after week, you just make sure that we stay on.
[27:51.590 --> 27:52.210]  You're welcome.
[27:56.700 --> 27:58.340]  Doesn't he do the archiving as well?
[27:58.640 --> 27:59.760]  Yes, actually.
[27:59.960 --> 28:00.620]  Every week.
[28:01.260 --> 28:02.920]  If you download it from the show, I put it there.
[28:03.580 --> 28:03.980]  How does it all work?
[28:03.980 --> 28:04.000]  What's that?
[28:04.000 --> 28:04.700]  How does it all work?
[28:05.020 --> 28:07.480]  Oh, it's very magical and hard to understand.
[28:08.640 --> 28:10.020]  No, it's really simple, actually.
[28:10.020 --> 28:13.580]  I have a radio at home that feeds into a computer.
[28:14.280 --> 28:18.540]  And that computer turns it into an MP3 file and sends it off to a server in Colorado somewhere.
[28:19.020 --> 28:23.380]  And we have a bunch of other servers that grab that signal and spread it out all over the world.
[28:23.520 --> 28:28.880]  And when you connect to one of those servers, you're listening to the stream that's originating from my home.
[28:29.620 --> 28:30.380]  It's that simple.
[28:34.300 --> 28:41.240]  Now, a commercial radio station, that kind of thing would cost huge amounts of money and probably wouldn't work as well.
[28:42.200 --> 28:42.420]  Probably.
[28:42.820 --> 28:46.020]  And, you know, in the hacker spirit, we just make it work somehow.
[28:46.180 --> 28:53.460]  And there was quite a period of time where Junts was responsible for the 24-7 simulcasting of BAI over the internet.
[28:53.600 --> 28:59.800]  And that was during a very critical period in our history where we had to get the word out to people all throughout the world as to what was happening at the station.
[29:01.600 --> 29:06.020]  Yeah, that was a dark period where people needed to know what was going on.
[29:06.280 --> 29:09.560]  And so we put up the stream 24-7, and that really helped out.
[29:09.860 --> 29:17.320]  And I should probably mention that we do all this with donated bandwidth, donated servers, and we're always looking for more.
[29:17.460 --> 29:23.160]  So if you've got a big pipe out there you're willing to let us use, let me know.
[29:24.020 --> 29:25.920]  Email OTH at 2600.com.
[29:26.840 --> 29:28.060]  Or just find Junts.
[29:28.120 --> 29:28.540]  He's right there.
[29:28.680 --> 29:28.920]  Yes.
[29:29.020 --> 29:37.620]  And on top of all of that, there's every show that we've ever done, I think, online at 2600.com slash off the hook.
[29:37.780 --> 29:40.400]  And you can go and listen to the whole history of this show.
[29:41.680 --> 29:44.980]  What's the current capacity of all this magic that you do?
[29:45.900 --> 29:48.800]  At the current rates that we're streaming, we can...
[29:48.800 --> 29:55.400]  Well, we have probably enough to handle anywhere between 600 to 1,000 listeners at once.
[29:55.760 --> 29:59.280]  And we get a pretty good percentage of that on a daily basis anyway.
[30:00.020 --> 30:07.360]  Any time there's an emergency or any, you know, war coverage from Iraq or whatever, that jumps up to almost beyond what we can handle.
[30:07.620 --> 30:10.380]  So, again, if you can help us out, we really appreciate it.
[30:11.820 --> 30:15.500]  We have Shapeshifter here, who does the layout for 2600 Magazine.
[30:18.900 --> 30:19.380]  Hello.
[30:19.580 --> 30:20.280]  How's it going?
[30:21.960 --> 30:27.700]  And I learned four years ago just how much he's actually worth when the U.S.
[30:28.040 --> 30:33.600]  government held him for half a million dollars bail at the Republican Convention in Philadelphia.
[30:33.900 --> 30:34.240]  I don't know if...
[30:34.240 --> 30:37.940]  How many of you saw his talk in 2000 at H2K about the RNC?
[30:38.340 --> 30:38.800]  All right.
[30:38.960 --> 30:41.060]  It was a very small room, so it couldn't be too many of you.
[30:41.920 --> 30:42.280]  Yeah.
[30:42.740 --> 30:49.180]  And down there, Shapeshifter, maybe you can tell the very quick story as to what happened to you when you went down there.
[30:49.420 --> 30:50.600]  Well, you lived down in Philadelphia.
[30:50.740 --> 30:51.340]  What happened to you...
[30:51.340 --> 30:52.180]  In Philadelphia, you mean?
[30:52.180 --> 30:53.360]  Yeah, in Philadelphia at the convention.
[30:54.060 --> 30:57.920]  What did you do that made it worthwhile to lock you up for half a million dollars bail?
[30:58.160 --> 31:00.380]  Well, I helped organize some of the protests beforehand.
[31:00.380 --> 31:05.360]  And during the actual convention, I couldn't get near any of the protests.
[31:05.800 --> 31:09.540]  Nowhere close, because the Philadelphia police did such a good job of shutting down the city.
[31:11.100 --> 31:11.620]  So...
[31:13.680 --> 31:25.760]  Anyway, I couldn't get anywhere near the protest, and I was charged with organizing and leading protests, and they said that I had this amazing superhuman ability of where I pointed, people would follow.
[31:27.240 --> 31:31.620]  I also have this other amazing ability of not being able to be caught in videotape.
[31:33.080 --> 31:34.300]  We saw the evidence, though.
[31:34.420 --> 31:38.960]  We saw the evidence of you walking down the street with a cell phone talking to somebody.
[31:39.020 --> 31:43.000]  And I think it was me you were talking to because I was in Philadelphia that day telling you what was going on.
[31:43.420 --> 31:44.340]  Does Zoe want to say something?
[31:44.600 --> 31:45.160]  You want to say hello?
[31:45.260 --> 31:45.380]  No?
[31:46.400 --> 31:48.300]  No, she wants to eat the microphone.
[31:48.460 --> 31:48.860]  Oh, okay.
[31:52.000 --> 31:54.380]  So they used that as evidence that you were a threat.
[31:54.720 --> 31:54.800]  Yes.
[31:54.800 --> 31:57.240]  And had you locked away for about a week, right?
[31:57.240 --> 31:57.340]  Yeah.
[31:58.840 --> 32:03.200]  My major charge was possession of an instrument of crime, which was the cell phone, in fact.
[32:03.360 --> 32:07.320]  How many of you remember the cover of 2600 with the cell phone and the handcuffs?
[32:09.560 --> 32:11.000]  His hands, his...
[32:11.500 --> 32:13.640]  I think we bought the handcuffs, right?
[32:14.300 --> 32:15.480]  And was it your cell phone?
[32:15.780 --> 32:18.560]  It was one of the cell phones that we were using for communications.
[32:18.800 --> 32:19.500]  Nextel phones.
[32:19.760 --> 32:20.460]  Yes, Nextel.
[32:20.560 --> 32:21.100]  Very dangerous.
[32:21.480 --> 32:21.700]  Yeah.
[32:21.860 --> 32:23.920]  Well, they were listening in on the Nextel phones, I believe.
[32:24.560 --> 32:25.680]  I think somewhat, yeah.
[32:25.680 --> 32:30.160]  Yeah, so if you plan on communicating surreptitiously, perhaps that's not the best option.
[32:30.320 --> 32:30.420]  Yes.
[32:30.820 --> 32:36.000]  One of their favorite ways of listening in is tackling one of the people's holding it, and then they're on your network group.
[32:38.500 --> 32:39.660]  Low tech, but it works.
[32:39.800 --> 32:43.440]  I think maybe what you need is a crypto phone to communicate with everyone else.
[32:43.640 --> 32:44.540]  Yeah, crypto phones.
[32:44.960 --> 32:46.420]  They can tackle you then, too.
[32:46.900 --> 32:47.080]  Yeah.
[32:47.860 --> 32:49.560]  So tell us about the talk you're giving this year.
[32:50.220 --> 32:56.840]  This talk I gave this year is about mayhem and mischief, how I can join the fun and adding to the chaos at the RNC.
[32:57.560 --> 32:58.720]  Wait, you just gave the talk?
[32:59.440 --> 32:59.760]  Yes.
[33:00.020 --> 33:00.560]  Oh, I'm sorry.
[33:00.680 --> 33:02.400]  You just gave the talk in the other room, so it's over now.
[33:02.520 --> 33:02.960]  Sorry, folks.
[33:04.180 --> 33:05.440]  But it'll be available on video.
[33:07.040 --> 33:08.000]  Tell us how it went.
[33:08.660 --> 33:09.040]  What's that?
[33:09.120 --> 33:11.440]  Tell us how it went, since nobody here saw it, since we were all in here.
[33:11.800 --> 33:12.780]  I think it went okay.
[33:13.080 --> 33:13.560]  I don't know.
[33:13.640 --> 33:14.380]  Was anybody in there?
[33:15.520 --> 33:15.920]  All right.
[33:18.140 --> 33:20.380]  It was during the preparation for this show.
[33:20.480 --> 33:20.900]  It was before.
[33:21.080 --> 33:22.040]  I walked by, and the room was packed.
[33:22.300 --> 33:22.800]  Okay, I'm sorry.
[33:22.880 --> 33:23.760]  So you had plenty of people.
[33:24.580 --> 33:24.800]  Okay.
[33:25.420 --> 33:33.280]  And it was, basically we're talking about the Republican Convention coming here in another month or so, and what kinds of things that they're planning.
[33:33.740 --> 33:36.640]  What kinds of things are people planning to counter that?
[33:37.180 --> 33:38.260]  What kinds of demonstrations?
[33:38.960 --> 33:41.340]  I mean, they're sealing off this whole area.
[33:41.480 --> 33:43.220]  We're in the frozen zone right now, aren't we?
[33:43.220 --> 33:43.520]  Yep.
[33:43.760 --> 33:54.160]  I heard estimates of around like 500,000 people, and there's going to be marches, you know, big rah-rah marches where, you know, thousands, hundreds of thousands of people march.
[33:54.520 --> 33:55.580]  19 blocks.
[33:55.740 --> 33:58.360]  19 blocks will be cordoned off, I heard on the radio yesterday.
[33:58.460 --> 33:59.100]  19 blocks?
[33:59.240 --> 33:59.680]  That's a lot.
[33:59.780 --> 34:00.520]  19 blocks.
[34:00.740 --> 34:01.540]  That is a lot.
[34:01.660 --> 34:02.560]  I don't know how they're going to do that.
[34:02.640 --> 34:06.120]  Is there a free speech zone where we are permitted to express our opinions?
[34:06.880 --> 34:09.940]  I heard that too, but stay away from the protest pens.
[34:10.200 --> 34:12.180]  It sucks to be trapped inside one of them.
[34:12.180 --> 34:17.080]  Tell us about what a protest pen is, for those of us who have never protested before, who might be doing that this summer.
[34:17.280 --> 34:21.960]  That's where they funnel you in, they cordon you off, and nobody pays attention to you.
[34:23.500 --> 34:23.860]  Interesting.
[34:24.800 --> 34:27.300]  Well, Shapeshifter, thank you so much for your efforts and for everything you've done.
[34:28.040 --> 34:28.620]  Thank you.
[34:33.900 --> 34:35.080]  And Greg Newby is here.
[34:35.200 --> 34:35.660]  Greg, say hi.
[34:36.020 --> 34:36.180]  Hey.
[34:36.460 --> 34:41.400]  Greg is a person walking around organizing speakers, getting them to the right places on time.
[34:41.400 --> 34:43.840]  So, if you're a speaker, this is one of the guys you have to talk to.
[34:44.880 --> 34:47.060]  And Greg, you've been helping organize the conference too.
[34:47.260 --> 34:48.280]  How do you think it's going so far?
[34:48.820 --> 34:49.100]  I have.
[34:49.200 --> 34:53.080]  It's been a long trip, right?
[34:53.260 --> 34:55.300]  A lot of emails, a lot of effort.
[34:56.100 --> 35:02.500]  Like the previous ones, the HOPE conference is a virtual, essentially a virtually, we're put on by a virtual organization.
[35:02.680 --> 35:11.720]  You know, we're a lot of people doing day jobs, and spending a lot of time with email, and making all kinds of plans, and then it comes together.
[35:11.860 --> 35:25.660]  And what we discover is that all of our incredible efforts, you know, a lot of hours, a lot of messages, some phone calls, stuff like that, are really a fraction of the effort that goes in by the speakers, and then by the volunteers that help out during the show.
[35:26.120 --> 35:29.240]  So, it's just a, you know, you put in a lot, and you get out a whole lot more.
[35:29.700 --> 35:32.000]  And Greg came all the way from Alaska to be here.
[35:32.140 --> 35:32.680]  Isn't that something?
[35:33.260 --> 35:33.460]  Whoa.
[35:38.680 --> 35:42.020]  His house is like burning down as we speak, but he's here anyway.
[35:42.360 --> 35:42.460]  Fire and ice.
[35:42.460 --> 35:46.300]  That's right, there's these wildfires going on in Alaska a few miles from his house, but it's okay.
[35:46.300 --> 35:57.280]  We should point out to the radio listeners that this is such a high-class conference that Greg is wearing an electric blue zoot suit with a blue hat.
[35:57.500 --> 35:59.240]  This man is dressed to the nines.
[35:59.500 --> 36:03.740]  If this was 1944 Los Angeles, he could have Lana Turner tonight.
[36:05.340 --> 36:07.100]  Yeah, but did you see the wingtips?
[36:10.100 --> 36:10.860]  All right.
[36:11.040 --> 36:12.100]  This is radio after all.
[36:12.340 --> 36:14.860]  During the blackout, he could have Lana Turner tonight.
[36:16.980 --> 36:21.280]  Okay, well, Greg, who else is back here?
[36:21.380 --> 36:21.700]  We have Kevin.
[36:21.860 --> 36:22.040]  Kevin.
[36:22.480 --> 36:23.120]  Step up, Kevin.
[36:24.200 --> 36:24.980]  Kevin Mitnick.
[36:27.280 --> 36:28.060]  Hi, everybody.
[36:30.840 --> 36:33.600]  And you gave a terrific talk before.
[36:34.340 --> 36:34.680]  Thank you.
[36:34.720 --> 36:35.420]  Standing ovation.
[36:35.800 --> 36:36.040]  Amazing.
[36:36.300 --> 36:38.220]  You had the whole place packed, all the way to the back.
[36:38.480 --> 36:41.140]  That was great to do it in front of a great audience.
[36:41.400 --> 36:41.620]  Yeah.
[36:41.720 --> 36:41.920]  Yeah.
[36:41.920 --> 36:43.200]  Well, like I mentioned before...
[36:43.200 --> 36:44.840]  That was the first time actually doing that type of talk, too.
[36:45.000 --> 36:46.900]  So I actually had to think on my feet a little bit.
[36:47.080 --> 36:49.460]  The talks you give usually led to a corporate audience.
[36:49.620 --> 36:49.960]  It's a little different.
[36:49.960 --> 36:50.840]  Yeah, corporate-type stuff.
[36:51.020 --> 36:51.160]  Uh-huh.
[36:51.460 --> 36:51.800]  Yeah.
[36:52.040 --> 36:54.180]  So not quite as enthusiastic a crowd.
[36:54.480 --> 36:54.820]  No.
[36:55.200 --> 36:59.400]  And certainly not the kind of people who were demonstrating against having you locked up for all those years.
[36:59.620 --> 37:03.080]  Well, I mean, the last one I did was like in front of the RCMP in Canada.
[37:03.080 --> 37:03.140]  Yeah.
[37:03.380 --> 37:04.400]  So it was kind of awkward, right?
[37:06.040 --> 37:06.980]  They bring their horses?
[37:07.920 --> 37:08.280]  No.
[37:09.920 --> 37:12.260]  So what else has been going on with you in the conference?
[37:12.560 --> 37:15.860]  Have you been going to other panels, walking around the hotel?
[37:16.160 --> 37:16.760]  What's been going on?
[37:16.820 --> 37:17.120]  Just...
[37:17.120 --> 37:27.320]  Well, today I actually just slept in because I was kind of tired from being from the West Coast and was worried about preparing for my talk and then did my talk and...
[37:27.320 --> 37:28.780]  Now you can kick back and relax.
[37:28.800 --> 37:30.820]  Walked around and socialized and mingled with the crowd.
[37:30.820 --> 37:32.060]  How many books did you sign?
[37:32.140 --> 37:34.420]  It was like a line for two hours or something.
[37:34.700 --> 37:35.060]  I don't know.
[37:35.320 --> 37:36.260]  I mean, it was a lot.
[37:36.260 --> 37:36.840]  It was a lot.
[37:37.060 --> 37:37.300]  A lot.
[37:37.300 --> 37:40.940]  Me and Ford were signing books for Singres and a lot of people bought...
[37:40.940 --> 37:43.540]  brought over the book that I wrote, The Art of Deception.
[37:43.620 --> 37:47.080]  It wasn't for sale here, but I figured people signed it.
[37:47.140 --> 37:48.980]  They had been allowed to sign 2600 magazines.
[37:49.160 --> 37:49.900]  Signed a lot of those.
[37:50.360 --> 37:51.560]  Freedom Downtime DVDs.
[37:51.860 --> 37:52.180]  What?
[37:52.380 --> 37:53.540]  Freedom Downtime DVDs.
[37:53.580 --> 37:54.200]  Are you signing those?
[37:54.480 --> 37:54.740]  Yeah.
[37:55.080 --> 37:55.180]  Yeah.
[37:55.440 --> 37:55.580]  Cool.
[37:55.800 --> 37:57.220]  Any weird things that you sign?
[37:57.380 --> 37:58.160]  Like people's arms?
[38:00.200 --> 38:00.600]  Oh.
[38:00.840 --> 38:01.600]  I'll never tell.
[38:03.560 --> 38:06.780]  I heard this story, but we don't have to get into it if you don't want.
[38:06.920 --> 38:07.440]  Yeah, yeah.
[38:08.180 --> 38:11.800]  This one beautiful girl came over and had me sign her a bra.
[38:12.080 --> 38:12.720]  I love it.
[38:12.960 --> 38:13.260]  Yeah.
[38:13.520 --> 38:14.060]  Are you serious?
[38:14.360 --> 38:14.700]  Yeah.
[38:15.840 --> 38:16.240]  Right.
[38:17.820 --> 38:18.220]  Well...
[38:18.220 --> 38:19.640]  I mean, that was the highlight of the day.
[38:20.240 --> 38:25.280]  After this is over, if you could teach me how to hack that class, because that thing is like...
[38:25.880 --> 38:27.300]  Well, they're hacking the bra class.
[38:27.820 --> 38:27.880]  Yeah.
[38:29.860 --> 38:30.200]  Unbelievable.
[38:31.300 --> 38:31.780]  Well...
[38:32.340 --> 38:33.220]  I think...
[38:33.220 --> 38:34.340]  Isn't that part of lockpicking?
[38:35.980 --> 38:36.460]  So...
[38:36.460 --> 38:37.940]  Inside the inside or the outside?
[38:38.800 --> 38:39.280]  Outside.
[38:41.340 --> 38:43.840]  My girlfriend would be very upset with me.
[38:44.140 --> 38:47.040]  There is a lockpicking thing going on tomorrow, though.
[38:47.080 --> 38:51.720]  Lockpicking is a two-hour lockpicking panel tomorrow, beginning at 11 o'clock, running until one.
[38:51.820 --> 38:55.820]  And we also have a lockpicking workshop downstairs, and that's ongoing.
[38:56.040 --> 39:04.180]  So if you want to learn something about the innards of locks and how they work and how to design better ones, perhaps, this is the place to be as far as that goes.
[39:04.280 --> 39:05.520]  But we've got all kinds of other things as well.
[39:05.600 --> 39:09.080]  All kinds of different talks on different subjects, things like that.
[39:10.260 --> 39:12.000]  It's a weekend filled with activity.
[39:12.380 --> 39:12.860]  So it's a lot of fun.
[39:12.860 --> 39:16.040]  Did you ever see the lockpicking stuff at the Spy Museum in Washington, D.C.?
[39:16.040 --> 39:16.220]  No.
[39:16.320 --> 39:16.620]  Tell us.
[39:16.960 --> 39:17.080]  Yeah.
[39:17.900 --> 39:19.100]  Well, they show a little video.
[39:19.100 --> 39:21.860]  You know, for a little basic lockpicking video of how it works.
[39:21.960 --> 39:27.440]  And then they have all the devices that, I guess, the CIA or intelligence agencies use.
[39:27.540 --> 39:28.360]  And they have it in these cases.
[39:28.360 --> 39:28.880]  It's pretty cool.
[39:29.140 --> 39:31.160]  You know, for a first-time introduction to the stuff.
[39:31.360 --> 39:33.380]  Nothing advanced like you'd see here at HOPE.
[39:34.820 --> 39:37.460]  You know, for those advanced medical lockpickers, right?
[39:37.740 --> 39:38.160]  Uh-huh.
[39:39.920 --> 39:42.640]  And you brought your mom and your grandmother here as well?
[39:42.640 --> 39:43.060]  Yeah.
[39:43.200 --> 39:51.020]  I mean, what hacker or retired hacker wouldn't bring their mom and grandmother to a hacker conference?
[39:58.590 --> 40:00.070]  Kevin's grandmother is right over here.
[40:00.270 --> 40:03.710]  And it's amazing having you guys in New York.
[40:03.870 --> 40:06.090]  And it's just so great to bring us all together.
[40:06.470 --> 40:08.630]  And finally, after all this time.
[40:08.630 --> 40:10.090]  Kevin, thank you for inviting us out.
[40:10.230 --> 40:11.010]  I mean, it's been wonderful.
[40:11.250 --> 40:13.050]  And my first time at a HOPE conference.
[40:13.510 --> 40:16.530]  I'm looking forward to being at many more in the future.
[40:16.810 --> 40:18.530]  And so far, I've had a great time.
[40:19.550 --> 40:19.890]  Great.
[40:24.870 --> 40:25.790]  And Robert Steele.
[40:25.930 --> 40:26.750]  Robert Steele is here.
[40:27.250 --> 40:28.090]  Our first keynote.
[40:28.190 --> 40:28.610]  Come on up, Robert.
[40:31.190 --> 40:32.690]  Let's have a hug for the audience.
[40:35.730 --> 40:37.950]  Yeah, well, you know, John Kerry can do that shit.
[40:38.110 --> 40:39.150]  Can I pat you on the ass?
[40:42.150 --> 40:42.590]  Sorry.
[40:42.850 --> 40:43.550]  We're on the radio.
[40:43.770 --> 40:44.030]  Don't forget.
[40:44.170 --> 40:44.730]  I apologize.
[40:45.330 --> 40:45.770]  Right.
[40:46.850 --> 40:48.010]  Listen, Janet Jackson.
[40:49.110 --> 40:50.650]  No, you don't want to go there.
[40:51.610 --> 40:52.910]  It's really not worth doing.
[40:53.190 --> 40:55.230]  So you were here for the first conference in 1994.
[40:55.570 --> 41:00.570]  Wearing sunglasses with strobe lights, talking about the Reichstag coming in.
[41:00.990 --> 41:02.250]  You were ahead of your time.
[41:03.250 --> 41:07.090]  Well, it's funny because that first talk, we were playing a Jello Biafra speech.
[41:07.830 --> 41:08.590]  While you were...
[41:08.590 --> 41:09.910]  He doesn't like me, does he?
[41:10.070 --> 41:12.550]  Well, you know, different people have different ways of communicating.
[41:12.710 --> 41:13.130]  But I think we're all...
[41:13.130 --> 41:13.710]  We've never met.
[41:14.010 --> 41:15.090]  We've never hugged.
[41:15.210 --> 41:15.590]  You will.
[41:15.710 --> 41:16.770]  He arrives tonight.
[41:17.130 --> 41:18.130]  I'm leaving tomorrow.
[41:20.430 --> 41:21.510]  It's planned out so well.
[41:21.690 --> 41:24.570]  But 1994, you gave a talk.
[41:24.710 --> 41:26.330]  I think it was in the room next door.
[41:26.570 --> 41:27.890]  And that was the keynote.
[41:28.610 --> 41:29.630]  And look how big it's gotten.
[41:29.630 --> 41:30.470]  We've gotten...
[41:30.470 --> 41:31.590]  We have three floors now.
[41:31.690 --> 41:32.890]  You guys have become mainstream.
[41:33.290 --> 41:36.870]  I mean, for people to show up at 10 in the morning, I mean, you know, something's going on here.
[41:37.530 --> 41:38.730]  And to run on time.
[41:39.270 --> 41:42.350]  So what have you been up to the last couple of years since we had you here last?
[41:42.350 --> 41:43.950]  I'm surviving.
[41:44.350 --> 41:54.410]  And as I said this morning, for those of you that slept in, collective intelligence, Google on collective intelligence in quotes, and you will discover the wisdom of the crowd.
[41:55.090 --> 41:57.670]  The public is starting to come into its own.
[41:58.090 --> 42:12.830]  The internet is, in fact, enabling people to come together at every level, in every location, and put together more information, better information, than the liars in the government, and the liars in the corporation.
[42:13.510 --> 42:17.590]  So you now have the power of information, but only if you structure yourself.
[42:17.970 --> 42:19.450]  Only if you self-organize.
[42:20.030 --> 42:23.130]  I'm sorry if that sounds like a commercial, but I'm not selling anything.
[42:23.350 --> 42:24.050]  Get your act together.
[42:24.530 --> 42:26.990]  And you're speaking for like four hours tomorrow, correct?
[42:26.990 --> 42:29.130]  No, I'm not speaking for four hours tomorrow.
[42:29.130 --> 42:32.750]  I am giving two 30-minute briefs on everything that's screwed up in intelligence.
[42:32.990 --> 42:36.870]  Senator Roberts, I just did a press release while I was in my room a few hours ago.
[42:37.430 --> 42:39.450]  Senator Roberts got 10% of it right.
[42:39.770 --> 42:41.150]  He missed the other 90%.
[42:41.150 --> 42:42.590]  My press release covers that.
[42:43.630 --> 42:46.290]  The thing is, you're going to be taking questions, and that's why it's going to go four hours.
[42:46.350 --> 42:47.290]  That's exactly right.
[42:47.410 --> 42:53.550]  It will go four hours, and at midnight, if any of you are interested, we'll have a panel on crushing New York.
[42:59.630 --> 43:01.570]  Now, exactly what do you mean by that?
[43:01.930 --> 43:04.450]  Well, let's start with the 1920s water system.
[43:06.090 --> 43:07.450]  Oh, you know about that, huh?
[43:07.690 --> 43:08.050]  Yes.
[43:08.230 --> 43:14.130]  If that is somehow incapacitated, and a fire starts in one of these tenements...
[43:14.130 --> 43:15.250]  Did you read that article in the New Yorker?
[43:15.250 --> 43:16.590]  The city burns down.
[43:16.730 --> 43:17.550]  You read that article, didn't you?
[43:17.550 --> 43:19.250]  Yeah, and then let's go from there to the plague.
[43:20.510 --> 43:21.670]  Did you say the plague?
[43:22.010 --> 43:22.370]  Yes.
[43:24.230 --> 43:25.770]  Do you mean the hacker named the plague?
[43:25.770 --> 43:28.230]  But after the plague, we can go to Gugliani's new girlfriend.
[43:30.490 --> 43:31.230]  Well, tell us...
[43:31.230 --> 43:32.610]  I'm sorry, that was a cheap shot.
[43:32.950 --> 43:34.610]  I don't think he'll be vice president.
[43:36.170 --> 43:38.870]  Tell us about the water system and its inherent weakness.
[43:41.690 --> 43:43.170]  At the risk of being serious.
[43:44.650 --> 43:52.330]  There's a very, very important book by a guy named Charles Perrault, I think it is, called Normal Accidents, Dealing with High-Risk Technologies.
[43:52.330 --> 43:57.650]  And what he says, this is a standard book in all masters of public administration courses.
[43:58.290 --> 44:03.850]  Simple systems have single points of failure that are easy to diagnose and easy to fix.
[44:05.090 --> 44:11.270]  Complex systems have multiple points of failure that interact in strange and incomprehensible ways on the way down.
[44:11.270 --> 44:14.050]  And they're almost impossible to diagnose and fix.
[44:14.550 --> 44:23.630]  We have a constellation of complex systems, all of which were designed for acts of God, not acts of man.
[44:24.290 --> 44:32.630]  The minute you introduce suicidal terrorism and billions of seriously pissed off Muslims, you are in deep...
[44:33.410 --> 44:34.110]  Thank you, Robert.
[44:34.390 --> 44:35.710]  Nice having you as always.
[44:36.790 --> 44:37.830]  Yes, we caught it.
[44:38.410 --> 44:40.830]  And you're speaking tomorrow night, is that correct?
[44:41.110 --> 44:42.790]  At 10 o'clock in the evening.
[44:43.090 --> 44:43.430]  All right.
[44:43.930 --> 44:44.530]  Great to have you back.
[44:44.530 --> 44:45.230]  I'm dismissed now.
[44:45.470 --> 44:45.810]  Thank you.
[44:45.870 --> 44:47.170]  Well, you know, we have to move on.
[44:47.330 --> 44:48.030]  We have all kinds of other things.
[44:48.030 --> 44:48.850]  God bless you.
[44:48.970 --> 44:50.430]  What you're doing is really worthwhile.
[44:50.710 --> 44:51.010]  Thank you.
[44:51.090 --> 44:51.610]  Thank you for coming.
[44:51.910 --> 44:52.550]  Robert Steele.
[44:58.040 --> 45:00.920]  Is there anybody else on the guest list that we...
[45:00.920 --> 45:01.540]  I can't see.
[45:01.620 --> 45:02.600]  I have this brilliant light.
[45:02.980 --> 45:03.820]  Rob is coming up?
[45:03.820 --> 45:04.620]  In a minute.
[45:04.660 --> 45:04.940]  Okay.
[45:05.080 --> 45:05.360]  In a minute.
[45:05.500 --> 45:08.300]  So we have Rob to look forward to, who just presented the CryptoPhone.
[45:09.020 --> 45:10.180]  How many of you are at that panel?
[45:11.000 --> 45:11.920]  That was pretty interesting, wasn't it?
[45:12.780 --> 45:13.280]  All right.
[45:15.340 --> 45:21.760]  Bernie, tell us something, because you probably know more about the whole CryptoPhone system than others up here.
[45:21.980 --> 45:26.100]  Tell us if this is something that is likely to work, something that we're likely to use.
[45:26.360 --> 45:27.120]  It definitely works.
[45:27.120 --> 45:38.340]  This is a system whereby private individuals can now, almost for the first time in this country, communicate securely between one another.
[45:38.840 --> 45:54.300]  I could call any member of this audience and they could call me on a pair of phones that were modified by Rob's group in the Netherlands to encrypt your conversation in real time, both ways, with a fairly secure algorithm.
[45:54.300 --> 46:02.840]  And it uses a GSM standard, which a lot of carriers here in this country use now.
[46:03.780 --> 46:09.660]  The cost is coming down and you can play with this technology yourself for free using the free client software.
[46:09.940 --> 46:18.720]  If you go to CryptoPhone.de, you can download that program, play with it, communicate securely by voice with anyone else over the internet.
[46:20.340 --> 46:23.180]  And you can explore, you can also communicate with one of the phones.
[46:23.320 --> 46:27.400]  So if only one person has a phone, you can communicate with them with the PC.
[46:27.520 --> 46:28.780]  Over the POTS line, not the internet.
[46:29.060 --> 46:30.180]  It makes a data call.
[46:30.240 --> 46:30.400]  That's right.
[46:30.460 --> 46:30.720]  I'm sorry.
[46:30.820 --> 46:33.140]  It makes a data call over a POTS line, not over the internet.
[46:33.660 --> 46:34.680]  Thank you for correcting that.
[46:35.520 --> 46:40.500]  It's really exciting because up until now, there's been a lot of secure phones, supposedly secure.
[46:40.740 --> 46:41.980]  None of them were really that secure.
[46:42.180 --> 46:45.740]  This is as secure as private sector has ever come up with.
[46:45.740 --> 46:50.780]  And these guys really owe a lot, we owe a lot to them for doing all this work to do this.
[46:50.920 --> 46:53.160]  Because they think privacy is important and so do we.
[46:53.320 --> 46:57.220]  I'm sure law enforcement and intelligence agencies take a very dim view of this.
[46:57.460 --> 47:03.220]  But so far, encryption has not been outlawed and we should use it as much as we can until it is.
[47:03.320 --> 47:03.940]  And then maybe on some.
[47:03.940 --> 47:08.460]  The interesting thing about it is that in Europe, it's kind of, I mean, especially in Germany, they accept this.
[47:08.600 --> 47:11.900]  Because especially in European countries, they have a lot of economic espionage.
[47:11.900 --> 47:19.860]  So the companies there actually like encryption because it will keep the other companies there, the other companies in spying on them.
[47:20.360 --> 47:20.760]  Yeah.
[47:20.900 --> 47:21.300]  Good point.
[47:21.680 --> 47:23.460]  Economic espionage is very big in Europe.
[47:23.840 --> 47:26.600]  Also in this country, just a lot of economic spying going on.
[47:27.020 --> 47:39.000]  But whatever, whether it's the government or industrial corporate espionage you're worried about, if you have a company with a technology you're worried about being stolen, this is a very valuable tool to have.
[47:39.000 --> 47:41.440]  And up until now, you really didn't have access to it.
[47:41.560 --> 47:43.320]  So kudos to these guys.
[47:44.840 --> 47:53.360]  Speaking of kudos, there are many kudos owed to our resident designer and artist, Jen, who has come up with the incredible design we have here.
[47:53.440 --> 47:53.780]  Thank you.
[48:00.540 --> 48:00.940]  All right.
[48:00.940 --> 48:08.100]  Jen, can you tell us something about the whole thought process that went into creating this artistic thing that's going on?
[48:08.100 --> 48:08.880]  I'm sorry.
[48:08.960 --> 48:09.480]  I've been up too long.
[48:09.560 --> 48:10.780]  My words are failing me.
[48:10.900 --> 48:17.540]  But if you've been to the hopes of the past, I think you will have noticed that this one has more artwork going on than ever before.
[48:17.640 --> 48:18.440]  And that's because we have Jen.
[48:19.680 --> 48:21.900]  Well, it's about time somebody brought design to 2600.
[48:25.120 --> 48:25.840]  Well, you know.
[48:26.020 --> 48:26.240]  Anyway.
[48:26.520 --> 48:27.040]  So, yeah.
[48:28.440 --> 48:28.800]  Basically...
[48:31.120 --> 48:33.020]  I have a band.
[48:33.560 --> 48:36.440]  I'm a friend of a band back home in Colorado called The Frenchman.
[48:36.680 --> 48:37.700]  And they have a song.
[48:37.940 --> 48:42.420]  And one of the lines in the song is, I'm into fascism for the fashion.
[48:43.040 --> 48:46.680]  And that was sort of my motto with this whole thing.
[48:46.680 --> 48:56.640]  What I wanted to do was talk about, make a statement about police state and how corporations propaganda is everywhere now.
[48:56.880 --> 49:02.220]  And I just wanted to bring that in with heapfuls of irony all over the place.
[49:02.220 --> 49:12.920]  So, what you see in this room is homage to some fascist photographs I found from the Nazi party rallies.
[49:13.420 --> 49:18.320]  And from Democratic National Conventions in 1861.
[49:19.000 --> 49:21.160]  And some...or 1860.
[49:21.500 --> 49:24.760]  And some other old vintage photographs I found.
[49:25.080 --> 49:29.260]  And I came up with just a simple scheme to recreate it with spray paint.
[49:30.080 --> 49:31.300]  And here it is.
[49:31.880 --> 49:37.480]  So, we have tall skinny red banners and scalloping and all kinds of fancy...
[49:39.920 --> 49:42.760]  If you're out there in Radio Land, this looks like V.I.
[49:42.840 --> 49:43.900]  Lennon's funeral in here.
[49:43.900 --> 49:52.680]  Now, some of your work, Jen, was deemed too controversial for 7th Avenue where we have some nice windows that were showing one of your paintings.
[49:52.960 --> 49:54.400]  Do you maybe want to describe that?
[49:54.840 --> 49:56.680]  Yeah, I've finally been censored.
[50:04.170 --> 50:09.030]  For the front windows of the Hotel Pennsylvania, the very big windows are facing 7th Avenue.
[50:09.310 --> 50:15.010]  And I came up with two canvases, which I did paintings, oil on canvas, you know, Van Gogh style.
[50:16.270 --> 50:21.930]  And one depicted an astronaut on planet Earth holding an upside down flag.
[50:22.850 --> 50:24.730]  So, that's a sign of dissent.
[50:24.910 --> 50:26.770]  The flag has 51 stars on it.
[50:27.370 --> 50:31.130]  In the astronaut's mask is the monolith from 2001.
[50:32.030 --> 50:36.050]  And the whole idea is this is a hacker on planet Earth.
[50:36.070 --> 50:38.770]  He's raising the flag of dissent and distress.
[50:40.490 --> 50:45.750]  The 51 star, you know, represents our international policy lately.
[50:48.870 --> 50:51.670]  And, apparently, this is too controversial for New York City.
[50:51.810 --> 50:57.470]  Well, people... I talked to some of the people at the hotel and, I mean, they basically have to answer to upper management.
[50:58.130 --> 51:04.670]  But what was happening, apparently, were people walking by on the sidewalk and they were horribly disturbed by seeing such a display.
[51:04.890 --> 51:06.470]  And they actually were calling the hotel.
[51:06.490 --> 51:10.730]  They were calling the hotel long after we took them down, too, saying that they were still disturbed by it.
[51:10.870 --> 51:12.650]  I don't know what they expected us to do at that point.
[51:12.970 --> 51:17.230]  But they wanted us to do something, go back in time and fix it.
[51:18.010 --> 51:20.610]  But the posters are still up, just not in the window.
[51:20.790 --> 51:21.450]  Just not in the window.
[51:21.670 --> 51:24.130]  We have all kinds of other posters we're putting up as well.
[51:24.130 --> 51:31.170]  In addition to Jen, we have an artist from Quebec who made all the Big Brother posters that you see all over the place as well.
[51:31.370 --> 51:32.130]  Which are awesome.
[51:32.250 --> 51:33.110]  They're incredible.
[51:33.310 --> 51:33.750]  They really are.
[51:33.950 --> 51:35.910]  The one in back of me right now...
[51:35.910 --> 51:37.350]  No, it's not Hitler.
[51:37.350 --> 51:37.990]  It's Big Brother.
[51:38.170 --> 51:40.390]  He's got a mustache, but I just want to make that clear.
[51:40.770 --> 51:42.190]  He keeps staring at me.
[51:42.590 --> 51:43.870]  He's creeping me out.
[51:44.290 --> 51:45.390]  He's watching you.
[51:45.510 --> 51:46.250]  He's protecting you.
[51:46.510 --> 51:51.410]  I think the Big Brother was also a subject of some concern, actually.
[51:51.410 --> 52:00.510]  If you go up the main elevators in the hotel and head up to the 18th floor, if you look straight down the hallway, you can see straight into one of the rooms.
[52:01.390 --> 52:04.130]  And the banner is right on the back of the room.
[52:04.190 --> 52:08.650]  And you can clearly see that there are all these red banners coming down, red and black.
[52:08.830 --> 52:10.090]  Very common, very scary.
[52:10.570 --> 52:17.130]  And the hotel expressed a little concern about it and asked us to kind of keep the doors shut.
[52:21.250 --> 52:25.730]  So, this artwork has made quite an impact, not only on us thinking, wow, that's great.
[52:25.890 --> 52:32.190]  And this communism for the fashions as it is, but it's made an impression on other people as well.
[52:33.210 --> 52:43.070]  And if you want to see Jen's artwork with the upside down flag, if you go to hope.net on the homepage for this conference, you can see what caused all the controversy.
[52:44.370 --> 52:52.870]  And if you come to the conference, you can see even more controversy as we bring you panels until Sunday night with, I guess, things that people will be talking about for quite some time.
[52:54.230 --> 53:06.870]  So, yeah, we have artwork here, we have all kinds of technical talks, we've got great keynote speakers, and a whole lot of fun as far as the crowd, just the people that show up to these things.
[53:07.070 --> 53:11.370]  It's really cool to see some of you after not having seen these for the last couple of years.
[53:12.150 --> 53:26.210]  So, again, if people are out there, they want to come to the conference, it's taking place at the Hotel Pennsylvania for the next few days over the weekend, right across the street from Madison Square Garden in Penn Station, and more information at www.hope.net.
[53:27.170 --> 53:32.170]  You're listening to a live, two-hour radio broadcast of Off the Hook on WBAI New York.
[53:33.390 --> 53:34.870]  And is there anyone else?
[53:35.050 --> 53:36.370]  Laszlo, you have Rob there.
[53:36.510 --> 53:39.110]  Yeah, we have organizers from other hacker conventions.
[53:39.290 --> 53:40.370]  Organizers from other hacker conventions.
[53:40.450 --> 53:43.350]  Well, Rob, tell us something about your hacker conventions over in Holland.
[53:43.450 --> 53:44.210]  Can people see Rob?
[53:50.660 --> 53:56.620]  I organized a hacker convention in 2001 in Amsterdam, where I helped organize it together with a bunch of other people.
[53:57.780 --> 53:58.760]  And that was fun.
[53:59.340 --> 54:00.520]  You were there, actually.
[54:00.520 --> 54:00.900]  I was there.
[54:01.020 --> 54:01.700]  I remember it.
[54:02.760 --> 54:11.960]  We do our conventions out on fields in the open with big tents, sort of as a camping trip more than as a big city thing, which is different.
[54:12.220 --> 54:14.740]  There's less people just stepping in off the street.
[54:14.740 --> 54:16.760]  It's more of an in-crowd thing.
[54:17.280 --> 54:19.400]  But it's different because everybody's camping out.
[54:19.540 --> 54:20.540]  They're much closer together.
[54:20.900 --> 54:23.720]  It's fun and different, but also very funny way.
[54:24.000 --> 54:27.820]  How many of you went to that conference or one of the hacker camps?
[54:28.680 --> 54:29.340]  A few.
[54:29.500 --> 54:30.120]  But you know what?
[54:30.180 --> 54:32.720]  A lot of you should go because they really are a lot of fun.
[54:32.840 --> 54:33.360]  They really are.
[54:33.460 --> 54:34.700]  It is amazing.
[54:35.000 --> 54:42.440]  I was able to go to HAL and to the CCC camp this past summer, and it was unbelievable.
[54:42.840 --> 54:43.640]  They're incredible.
[54:43.640 --> 54:47.840]  Being at HAL, I think I actually gained a lot by actually camping out.
[54:48.020 --> 54:50.440]  I stayed out in a tent, actually donated by ROP.
[54:51.580 --> 54:53.260]  And it was amazing.
[54:53.460 --> 55:00.060]  It was probably one of the most memorable hacker events I've ever been to.
[55:00.680 --> 55:03.800]  Even just the infrastructure that goes into it with all the...
[55:03.800 --> 55:06.960]  There's power generators and there's network running all over the place.
[55:06.960 --> 55:14.620]  It's kind of like here, but kind of on a different level since the campsites were just in different areas and everybody was getting...
[55:14.620 --> 55:15.680]  It was just amazing.
[55:15.860 --> 55:18.940]  It's something you have to see to believe and see to understand.
[55:18.940 --> 55:26.060]  It's really weird seeing all these tents with cables going in and just the glow inside.
[55:26.900 --> 55:28.940]  And you walk by tents and people are just sitting there going...
[55:30.800 --> 55:33.320]  They're talking to each other on IRC tent to tent.
[55:33.480 --> 55:37.140]  It's really kind of pathetic in some ways, but also kind of interesting.
[55:37.140 --> 55:38.720]  That was pretty intense.
[55:39.020 --> 55:40.080]  How many of you...
[55:40.980 --> 55:42.420]  I was going to do that.
[55:43.300 --> 55:49.520]  How many of you have ever camped out and had Wi-Fi access faster than what you have at home on your broadband?
[55:50.200 --> 55:53.260]  I don't know how you guys get the access that you get, but...
[55:53.260 --> 55:55.680]  Didn't they have a microwave link to Berlin?
[55:56.920 --> 55:57.440]  I think so.
[55:58.020 --> 56:00.920]  I think at CCC camp there was a link to Berlin, wasn't there?
[56:00.920 --> 56:02.900]  Yeah, there was a radio link.
[56:02.900 --> 56:06.340]  I think it was 144 or two times 144 megabits.
[56:08.020 --> 56:08.460]  We...
[56:08.460 --> 56:15.580]  At our Hal thing, we had a gigabit and we had another gigabit spare from the university that we were on their campus.
[56:16.180 --> 56:17.960]  So we had a lot of bandwidth.
[56:19.280 --> 56:23.140]  And we have the network thing down to the point where people would set up their tent.
[56:23.280 --> 56:24.360]  And as they were setting it...
[56:24.360 --> 56:29.120]  As they were still busy setting it up, somebody would walk up and say, I got a network cable for you.
[56:29.120 --> 56:30.140]  It's already plugged in.
[56:30.180 --> 56:31.100]  It's 100 megabits.
[56:31.240 --> 56:35.180]  If you're running servers or something, let me know because then I can plug it into a gigabit port.
[56:39.100 --> 56:40.620]  And that was sort of funny.
[56:40.720 --> 56:41.500]  It was interesting.
[56:41.700 --> 56:48.080]  People got really like the full 100 megabits worth of throughput in their tent, which really thrilled them.
[56:48.260 --> 56:53.980]  But the Germans gave us a challenge last year because their camp actually looked much cooler.
[56:54.420 --> 56:55.540]  Their camp looked really...
[56:55.540 --> 56:56.360]  Talk about artwork.
[56:56.520 --> 56:57.440]  They really had a lot going on.
[56:57.440 --> 56:58.560]  They did amazing artwork.
[56:58.560 --> 57:04.160]  At night, they had all these light projections on the tents and really psychedelic stuff happening with lights.
[57:04.320 --> 57:08.340]  And they had an alien craft landing place and rockets put up.
[57:08.440 --> 57:13.980]  And loads and loads of these plasma lights half buried in the ground.
[57:14.140 --> 57:15.100]  So at night, you sort of...
[57:15.100 --> 57:18.820]  There's suddenly this field with all these half balls sticking out of the ground.
[57:19.200 --> 57:20.480]  It was amazing.
[57:20.760 --> 57:23.240]  Smoke machines, lasers...
[57:23.240 --> 57:26.960]  By the way, it's 9 o'clock and this is WBAI New York.
[57:27.140 --> 57:32.180]  And it's also the Hotel Pennsylvania New York where we're broadcasting live from the Fifth HOPE Conference.
[57:32.760 --> 57:33.520]  And I guess...
[57:33.520 --> 57:33.540]  And the...