[00:25.530 --> 00:25.890]  Hi!
[00:26.190 --> 00:26.730]  Oh, hi.
[00:28.970 --> 00:36.130]  We were having technical problems, so I just thought I would run a bunch of stuff that I actually wasn't going to show tonight, but you got to see it.
[00:36.630 --> 00:43.170]  Anyway, my name is Mark, and I am a founding member, one of five of the group Negativland.
[00:45.830 --> 00:48.590]  And Emmanuel asked me to come out here.
[00:50.310 --> 00:53.750]  Well, when he asked me to come out here, I said, Emmanuel, well, I don't...
[00:53.750 --> 00:58.950]  You know, Negativland, we're not literally doing anything to do with hacking.
[00:59.250 --> 01:07.070]  And I don't actually know, you know, that much about the kind of stuff that is covered here.
[01:07.190 --> 01:16.770]  I follow a lot of it, and the reason he wanted us here is he said that what you guys do very much fits a kind of an ethic that is part of the hacker world.
[01:16.950 --> 01:22.390]  And that's actually all the stories that I'm always following about intellectual property and stuff going on with hacking.
[01:22.890 --> 01:32.830]  The interest to me is not always in the specifics about the code or how something is done.
[01:33.010 --> 01:39.230]  It's really more to do about these different ways that are evolving that you can, you know, do stuff you're not supposed to do.
[01:39.350 --> 01:46.410]  And Negativland has a whole history of really enjoying creating work where we're doing things that we did it kind of because we thought we weren't supposed to do it.
[01:48.270 --> 02:00.530]  So there's a bunch of stuff I'm going to touch on about copyright law, intellectual property stuff, fair use, anti-corporate activism, media literacy.
[02:00.890 --> 02:06.210]  But the best way I thought to do it was just to kind of give an overview of how we started and how we got to where we are.
[02:06.850 --> 02:11.670]  And I'm going to illustrate that by showing a bunch of different video clips that we've made.
[02:13.230 --> 02:18.330]  And the videos I should mention, none of these videos were made at the time the audio tracks were made.
[02:18.450 --> 02:25.270]  They're all stuff we've made in the last five years collaborating with a whole bunch of different filmmakers that we've gotten to know.
[02:25.270 --> 02:31.610]  So none of these were, they're not promotional videos that were made when we put out our new album to get on MTV or something.
[02:33.150 --> 02:36.590]  So, Negativland started in, I don't know, 78, 79.
[02:37.050 --> 02:45.150]  A bunch of weird kids playing around in their bedrooms, getting into making machines, do stuff that they're not supposed to do, which probably sounds familiar to a lot of you.
[02:47.710 --> 02:51.610]  And plugging sound boxes in the wrong way to see what would happen.
[02:52.030 --> 02:53.890]  Learning how to do things like make tape loops.
[02:53.890 --> 02:56.050]  How many people here know what a tape loop is?
[02:57.010 --> 02:57.650]  Oh, good.
[02:57.910 --> 03:07.130]  Okay, this is back in the old days of analog, where if you wanted to have a sound repeat over and over, you'd record it onto a piece of reel-to-reel recording tape, usually about a quarter inch wide.
[03:07.770 --> 03:10.110]  Cut it with a razor blade and tape one end to the other.
[03:10.190 --> 03:12.970]  And you could actually make a loop out of it and make it repeat over and over.
[03:13.310 --> 03:18.310]  Back then, doing things like that just seemed like, you know, discovering fire or inventing the wheel.
[03:18.510 --> 03:19.570]  It was extremely exciting.
[03:20.530 --> 03:20.950]  And...
[03:24.290 --> 03:25.410]  I grew up...
[03:25.410 --> 03:27.410]  I'm a middle-class white kid.
[03:27.650 --> 03:29.490]  And the TV set was always on.
[03:29.670 --> 03:40.390]  And for reasons which I can't really explain to you, it was the most natural thing in the world to us to mix in stuff off of the TV and radio and what was going on in the media world around us into our records.
[03:43.590 --> 03:44.030]  And...
[03:44.710 --> 03:46.470]  Let's see, I'm going to show a short piece.
[03:47.610 --> 03:49.190]  It's called Truth in Advertising.
[03:49.370 --> 03:54.030]  And this is something from a talk radio show that...
[03:54.630 --> 03:59.690]  Guy's calling in who wants to talk to someone about advertising and truth in advertising.
[04:00.370 --> 04:05.430]  And we took it and repeated some of the phrases and rearranged things and altered it.
[04:05.430 --> 04:09.570]  So that they're still talking about the same things, but it now sort of...
[04:09.570 --> 04:12.070]  A whole different meaning has been sort of brought out of it.
[04:12.270 --> 04:14.710]  Out of the content of the words.
[04:15.190 --> 04:20.450]  And we collaborated with this filmmaker in Columbus, Ohio, James Towning, to make this piece.
[04:40.080 --> 04:41.300]  This is Pennywise.
[04:41.620 --> 04:42.720]  Joan, you're next.
[04:42.880 --> 04:43.500]  This is Sue.
[04:43.700 --> 04:44.340]  Hi, Sue.
[04:44.460 --> 04:44.940]  How can I help?
[04:45.200 --> 04:47.700]  Jim, I really have a problem with impulse buying.
[04:47.920 --> 04:48.360]  I never...
[05:10.520 --> 05:11.700]  This is Pennywise.
[05:12.020 --> 05:13.120]  Joan, you're next.
[05:13.320 --> 05:13.900]  This is Sue.
[05:14.100 --> 05:14.740]  Hi, Sue.
[05:14.840 --> 05:15.340]  How can I help?
[05:15.560 --> 05:18.040]  Jim, I really have a problem with impulse buying.
[05:18.280 --> 05:19.980]  I never have money left for anything.
[05:20.260 --> 05:21.160]  Oh, why?
[05:21.440 --> 05:24.960]  Jim, I really have a buying impulse problem with buying...
[05:24.960 --> 05:25.120]  Well, okay.
[05:25.300 --> 05:27.460]  ...buying anything, anything, anything.
[05:27.460 --> 05:28.220]  Wait a minute.
[05:28.440 --> 05:30.900]  Go ahead and use some of that money to bring some happiness.
[05:31.060 --> 05:32.300]  Jim, I really have a problem.
[05:32.460 --> 05:34.900]  Jim, I never have money left for impulse buying.
[05:35.100 --> 05:36.380]  A lot of people have that problem.
[05:36.880 --> 05:37.520]  Take cash.
[05:37.920 --> 05:38.520]  Good idea.
[05:38.760 --> 05:40.820]  I feel we really need to buy right away.
[05:41.020 --> 05:44.700]  After all, money is only paper and metal until you put it to use.
[05:44.840 --> 05:45.940]  I never have money left.
[05:46.040 --> 05:47.560]  But we've already decided to buy.
[05:47.820 --> 05:48.640]  Impulse, impulse.
[05:49.020 --> 05:50.240]  I really think it'll help.
[05:50.540 --> 05:51.140]  Good idea.
[05:51.360 --> 05:51.840]  Oh, thanks.
[05:52.300 --> 05:53.560]  Okay, let's go to line four.
[05:53.760 --> 05:54.560]  This is Pennywise.
[05:54.800 --> 05:56.440]  I'm Jim Phillips and your name is...
[05:56.440 --> 05:56.640]  Bob.
[05:56.640 --> 05:57.180]  Hi, Bob.
[05:57.360 --> 05:58.120]  What can I do for you?
[05:58.360 --> 06:00.600]  I get confused by all the claims made in commercials.
[06:00.920 --> 06:02.260]  Oh, this is Pennywise.
[06:02.640 --> 06:03.320]  Line six.
[06:03.320 --> 06:03.820]  You're on.
[06:03.920 --> 06:05.000]  And your name is...
[06:05.000 --> 06:05.200]  Bob.
[06:05.800 --> 06:06.720]  Caller number five.
[06:06.940 --> 06:08.060]  You're on the air with Pennywise.
[06:08.220 --> 06:08.880]  I'm Jim Phillips.
[06:09.120 --> 06:11.400]  I get confused by all the claims made in commercials.
[06:11.800 --> 06:13.960]  Let's go to line seven on Pennywise.
[06:14.240 --> 06:15.140]  Hi, I'm Jim Phillips.
[06:15.280 --> 06:15.540]  Bob.
[06:15.940 --> 06:16.340]  Commercials.
[06:16.420 --> 06:19.400]  I get confused by all the claims made in commercials.
[06:19.700 --> 06:20.820]  Oh, well, listen.
[06:21.260 --> 06:24.260]  I think your first responsibility is to yourself and your family.
[06:24.520 --> 06:24.840]  The what?
[06:24.840 --> 06:25.740]  Thanks for the call.
[06:26.080 --> 06:26.440]  Hello.
[06:26.680 --> 06:29.400]  You're on Pennywise with Jim Phillips, and you are... Bob.
[06:29.580 --> 06:30.800]  Okay, let's go to line four.
[06:30.960 --> 06:31.840]  This is Pennywise.
[06:31.980 --> 06:33.940]  I'm Jim Phillips, and your name is... Bob.
[06:34.860 --> 06:35.220]  Commercials.
[06:35.280 --> 06:35.800]  Hello, caller.
[06:36.020 --> 06:38.280]  I get confused by all the claims made in commercials.
[06:38.560 --> 06:40.040]  And your name is... Bob.
[06:40.140 --> 06:40.360]  Bob.
[06:40.760 --> 06:41.000]  Bob.
[06:41.160 --> 06:41.620]  Hi, Bob.
[06:41.760 --> 06:42.540]  What can I do for you?
[06:42.840 --> 06:43.220]  The what?
[06:43.380 --> 06:43.660]  Go ahead.
[06:43.880 --> 06:46.160]  I get confused by all the claims made in commercials.
[06:46.380 --> 06:47.480]  You sound frustrated.
[06:47.680 --> 06:48.120]  It's because I am.
[06:48.340 --> 06:52.680]  Well, my kids and I, for example, love to build things with scrap lumber.
[06:52.960 --> 06:53.320]  The what?
[06:53.460 --> 06:53.800]  All right.
[06:54.000 --> 06:54.780]  Thanks for the call, Carl.
[06:54.840 --> 06:55.160]  Bob.
[06:55.460 --> 06:57.700]  This is Pennywise, line six.
[06:57.840 --> 06:58.180]  You're on.
[06:58.360 --> 06:58.600]  Bob.
[06:58.740 --> 06:59.060]  Yeah, Barb.
[06:59.220 --> 06:59.420]  Bob.
[06:59.580 --> 06:59.960]  Go ahead.
[07:00.200 --> 07:01.200]  Claims made in commercials.
[07:01.480 --> 07:02.660]  I get confused.
[07:02.760 --> 07:02.960]  Why?
[07:03.120 --> 07:05.420]  I get commercials confused by... I can imagine.
[07:05.720 --> 07:06.040]  The what?
[07:06.220 --> 07:09.660]  Well, many religious people follow the biblical plan of tithing.
[07:09.840 --> 07:12.420]  You may want to visit with your clergy about it, but of course... The what?
[07:12.540 --> 07:12.900]  The what?
[07:13.120 --> 07:13.520]  Commercials.
[07:13.660 --> 07:14.060]  Commercials.
[07:14.140 --> 07:15.700]  I get confused by all the claims.
[07:15.840 --> 07:17.040]  And your name is... Bob.
[07:17.280 --> 07:18.220]  That's a tough one.
[07:18.640 --> 07:19.980]  A lot of people have that problem.
[07:20.360 --> 07:20.680]  The what?
[07:20.820 --> 07:21.560]  Truth in advertising.
[07:21.980 --> 07:22.760]  I get confused.
[07:23.160 --> 07:27.600]  Advertising, though, can be a really good source of information because of the truth in advertising policy.
[07:27.760 --> 07:28.100]  The what?
[07:28.260 --> 07:30.060]  Because of the truth in advertising policy.
[07:30.300 --> 07:30.640]  The what?
[07:30.740 --> 07:31.540]  Truth in advertising.
[07:31.880 --> 07:32.320]  The what?
[07:32.420 --> 07:33.220]  Truth in advertising.
[07:33.360 --> 07:33.920]  Truth in advertising.
[07:33.920 --> 07:34.080]  Truth in advertising.
[07:34.300 --> 07:36.420]  You see, the law requires advertisers to tell the truth.
[07:36.620 --> 07:36.980]  The what?
[07:37.100 --> 07:37.520]  The truth.
[07:37.680 --> 07:38.100]  The truth.
[07:38.280 --> 07:38.980]  To tell the truth.
[07:39.160 --> 07:40.000]  Truth in advertising.
[07:40.500 --> 07:41.080]  Good point.
[07:41.080 --> 07:43.400]  Ah, so listen carefully to the wording of an ad.
[07:43.700 --> 07:44.060]  The what?
[07:44.200 --> 07:45.140]  The truth in advertising.
[07:45.360 --> 07:45.820]  The what?
[07:45.980 --> 07:48.980]  Well, then you have to decide if honesty goes both ways, right?
[07:49.340 --> 07:52.020]  After all, so, this is Pennywise.
[07:52.360 --> 07:52.860]  You're on the air.
[07:52.980 --> 07:53.440]  Hi, Bob.
[07:53.580 --> 07:54.360]  What can I do for you?
[07:54.680 --> 07:55.860]  Yeah, Jim, this is Charlie.
[07:56.060 --> 07:56.540]  Oh, okay.
[07:56.660 --> 07:58.120]  I've got a moral question for you.
[07:58.220 --> 07:58.540]  The what?
[07:58.680 --> 07:59.160]  Wait a minute.
[07:59.340 --> 08:00.060]  Thanks for the call, Bob.
[08:00.580 --> 08:01.240]  This is Charlie.
[08:01.420 --> 08:02.840]  I've got a moral question for you.
[08:03.180 --> 08:05.380]  Well, that's a matter for your own conscience, Charlie.
[08:05.600 --> 08:07.160]  I figured you'd say something like that.
[08:07.300 --> 08:07.840]  All right.
[08:07.900 --> 08:09.260]  Why don't you give it a try this year?
[08:09.360 --> 08:10.740]  Okay, but they'll never catch it.
[08:10.740 --> 08:12.040]  Well, thanks for calling, Charlie.
[08:12.260 --> 08:12.400]  Thanks.
[08:12.580 --> 08:14.540]  This is Pennywise, line six.
[08:14.720 --> 08:15.000]  You're on.
[08:15.320 --> 08:16.440]  Yeah, Jim, this is Charlie.
[08:27.480 --> 08:34.260]  So, we started doing this kind of stuff, and we weren't worried about things like copyright infringement or who owns this stuff.
[08:34.440 --> 08:40.860]  But what was exciting to us about doing it was ripping things out of their context.
[08:41.200 --> 08:51.000]  And, you know, without asking for permission, just taking this stuff and reusing it in our own way, repurposing it, or doing what's now, I've heard, used in certain court cases.
[08:51.600 --> 08:54.060]  It's called transformative reuse.
[08:54.700 --> 08:59.220]  It's a very fancy word for stealing stuff.
[09:03.000 --> 09:06.680]  And we didn't know anyone who was working this way, who was doing this kind of stuff.
[09:07.280 --> 09:18.040]  We put out our records ourselves on our own record label, and the more we kept working with the material, the more we kept, we started to think about who makes this stuff.
[09:19.080 --> 09:27.020]  Where's this stuff coming from, that we're taking from network television, from radio stations, talk radio shows, CB radio, shortwave radio.
[09:27.320 --> 09:28.940]  You know, there's all this media out there.
[09:29.240 --> 09:36.860]  And one of the things that we were also doing while we made records, is we had a live, we still have this live weekly radio show.
[09:37.220 --> 09:38.420]  It's called Over the Edge.
[09:38.620 --> 09:42.420]  And every week, we do a live, cut-up, improvised mix around a theme.
[09:42.840 --> 09:53.640]  So we end up, one of the reasons why we have so much material that ends up on our record, so many millions of little sound bites, is because we're always doing this radio show every week, and collecting all this great stuff.
[09:54.260 --> 10:01.280]  So we've done whole shows about advertising, or about the moon, or about fire, or about war, or about UFOs.
[10:02.780 --> 10:06.460]  This next piece I'm going to show you, we've done a series of radio shows about guns.
[10:07.080 --> 10:13.980]  And we ended up with a lot of really amazing material related to guns, and how, you know, guns show up in all of our media.
[10:14.200 --> 10:15.320]  And we ended up doing this piece.
[10:15.440 --> 10:17.200]  This is a longer piece, it's about eight minutes long.
[10:18.060 --> 10:19.240]  It's just called Guns.
[10:21.560 --> 10:25.640]  And the film footage, also, it's, you know, it's all stuff you'll recognize.
[10:25.680 --> 10:27.560]  It's all stolen from all over the place.
[10:29.200 --> 10:31.280]  And our work started to get more,
[10:34.560 --> 10:40.420]  it's, a lot of the stuff we're doing, I think, is still funny, but it was starting to get more pointed in its, in critiquing things.
[10:40.420 --> 10:44.860]  And, um, this we made in collaboration with a filmmaker from Chicago named Peter Neville.
[10:45.100 --> 10:45.800]  So, you ready?
[10:58.340 --> 10:59.540]  Guns, guns.
[11:02.340 --> 11:03.340]  Attracting target.
[11:08.320 --> 11:09.280]  Attracting target.
[11:17.430 --> 11:20.330]  And all the roses fall.
[11:34.170 --> 11:34.850]  Maureen!
[11:46.870 --> 11:47.270]  Guns.
[11:55.060 --> 11:55.460]  Gee.
[11:56.170 --> 11:56.560]  Guns.
[11:56.760 --> 11:58.760]  There's a real western story for you.
[11:59.100 --> 11:59.500]  Guns.
[11:59.620 --> 12:00.460]  Gosh, what excitement.
[12:02.240 --> 12:02.640]  Guns.
[12:02.760 --> 12:02.920]  Gee.
[12:03.100 --> 12:03.940]  Let's get out of here.
[12:04.460 --> 12:06.140]  Don't move in that door, either of you.
[12:08.700 --> 12:10.920]  I don't know.
[12:11.240 --> 12:12.060]  I can't see nothing.
[12:12.260 --> 12:13.320]  You don't have to see me now.
[12:13.400 --> 12:14.560]  Just settle down, you two.
[12:14.720 --> 12:15.840]  We're gonna have a little talk.
[12:16.060 --> 12:16.580]  Can't stop.
[12:19.840 --> 12:21.560]  Just sit back and wait.
[12:21.700 --> 12:22.100]  Can't stop.
[12:25.340 --> 12:27.400]  I can wait as long as you can.
[12:27.480 --> 12:28.000]  We can't stop.
[12:28.180 --> 12:28.900]  Can't we, Stacy?
[12:29.200 --> 12:29.620]  Can't stop.
[12:30.760 --> 12:31.140]  We can't stop.
[12:31.140 --> 12:34.100]  Check out your harmonica jingles.
[12:34.580 --> 12:36.460]  Might as well have a little music while we're waiting.
[12:36.980 --> 12:37.560]  Harmonica?
[12:38.220 --> 12:39.740]  Oh, sure thing, Bill.
[12:40.260 --> 12:41.360]  Something happened.
[12:42.860 --> 12:46.280]  Quaker Puff Rice Sparkies and Quaker Puff Wheat Sparkies.
[12:46.440 --> 12:49.900]  Those delicious, nutritious breakfast cereals shot from guns.
[12:54.790 --> 12:56.390]  Yes, shot from guns.
[12:58.330 --> 13:00.410]  We'll just sit back and wait.
[13:00.410 --> 13:02.990]  Bursting forth with gigantic grains of goodness.
[13:03.230 --> 13:04.890]  They want shooting, we'll give them that money's worth.
[13:05.650 --> 13:07.550]  We'll just sit back and wait.
[13:11.450 --> 13:13.670]  Yes, you can start on the harmonica now, jingles.
[13:14.070 --> 13:14.350]  All right.
[13:14.510 --> 13:16.890]  Better put that fancy gun in your hand, you might need it.
[13:16.950 --> 13:17.230]  All right.
[13:17.570 --> 13:18.350]  I'll take my gun.
[13:18.410 --> 13:19.630]  Now we're gonna have that talk.
[13:19.830 --> 13:20.310]  No money.
[13:21.730 --> 13:25.050]  You see, in this world, there's two kinds of people, my friend.
[13:26.410 --> 13:27.810]  Those are loaded guns.
[13:28.630 --> 13:28.770]  Gee.
[13:29.130 --> 13:29.890]  Those are dick.
[13:31.170 --> 13:31.850]  You dick.
[13:32.110 --> 13:34.430]  The difference between justice and murder...
[13:34.630 --> 13:35.490]  He's coming out!
[13:35.710 --> 13:36.390]  I can see you for it!
[13:36.510 --> 13:37.410]  Gosh, what excitement.
[13:37.810 --> 13:38.350]  Go ahead.
[13:38.530 --> 13:39.210]  Load up and shoot.
[13:40.130 --> 13:44.570]  I was right there listening, and I just couldn't leave till I heard both the stories.
[13:44.570 --> 13:46.310]  Time sure flies.
[13:47.250 --> 13:51.050]  You only know how to play, or do you know how to shoot?
[13:52.150 --> 13:55.270]  I'm gonna kill you with this one bullet if you try to take your gun.
[13:56.010 --> 13:57.690]  So, come on, take it.
[13:58.310 --> 13:59.270]  If you can.
[13:59.750 --> 14:00.590]  Hand it over.
[14:01.990 --> 14:05.090]  You'll be dead before you can draw the hammer back.
[14:05.270 --> 14:05.950]  Is that so?
[14:09.010 --> 14:09.890]  Good shooting.
[14:10.350 --> 14:11.230]  Very good shooting.
[14:12.750 --> 14:14.090]  Where'd you get the...
[14:16.130 --> 14:17.790]  Stay back and hold two shots.
[14:17.890 --> 14:18.990]  Now who wants the second one?
[14:19.630 --> 14:20.730]  Well, you know music.
[14:21.770 --> 14:22.710]  And you can count.
[14:23.010 --> 14:25.150]  So I'll move all the way up to two.
[14:25.810 --> 14:26.810]  Drop your gun, fellas.
[14:26.850 --> 14:27.330]  Don't do it.
[14:27.650 --> 14:31.370]  He killed Sal, but we got four guns, and he's only got one bullet left in that derringer.
[14:31.390 --> 14:32.350]  One's better than none.
[14:32.490 --> 14:32.950]  We got him.
[14:33.410 --> 14:34.210]  Yes, that's true.
[14:40.100 --> 14:42.120]  All the way up to six, if I had to.
[14:44.320 --> 14:44.800]  Two.
[14:45.060 --> 14:46.240]  Maybe faster than you.
[14:46.540 --> 14:47.020]  One.
[14:47.120 --> 14:48.560]  When I say three, draw.
[14:48.860 --> 14:49.020]  One.
[14:49.140 --> 14:50.380]  If you say two, I'll kill.
[14:50.540 --> 14:50.980]  Keep counting.
[14:51.720 --> 14:51.880]  Gee.
[14:52.380 --> 14:54.420]  I'll kill the next man who speaks.
[14:54.820 --> 14:55.680]  Gosh, what excitement.
[14:56.980 --> 14:57.460]  Fight!
[14:58.860 --> 15:00.160]  Hey, wait a minute.
[15:00.940 --> 15:01.460]  Are they shooting?
[15:02.100 --> 15:03.340]  No, don't shoot again.
[15:03.520 --> 15:05.440]  That wasn't Bill, that was me.
[15:05.580 --> 15:07.700]  Jingles, and don't wait for that door again.
[15:07.940 --> 15:08.520]  Drop him in.
[15:14.490 --> 15:16.510]  You can have them now, if you like.
[15:16.950 --> 15:18.850]  These dead men passed off.
[15:19.590 --> 15:19.690]  Gosh.
[15:29.990 --> 15:30.190]  Gosh.
[15:30.790 --> 15:32.410]  He's evil like my jock.
[15:33.330 --> 15:35.530]  We listen for harmony, little water.
[15:36.050 --> 15:36.190]  Gosh.
[15:42.210 --> 15:43.230]  You're a clean, will you?
[15:44.370 --> 15:45.650]  You're a dead man.
[15:48.610 --> 15:50.110]  Sunday, bring him down.
[15:50.110 --> 15:52.050]  Sunday, bring him down.
[15:52.230 --> 15:53.510]  Bring him down, bring him down.
[15:54.250 --> 15:58.210]  Bring him down, bring him down.
[15:59.550 --> 16:00.110]  Guns.
[16:02.630 --> 16:03.190]  Guns.
[16:17.930 --> 16:18.490]  Guns.
[16:19.010 --> 16:19.450]  Hello?
[16:30.370 --> 16:30.930]  Guns.
[16:31.030 --> 16:33.370]  That's fine shooting just fine.
[16:33.650 --> 16:33.770]  Guns.
[16:33.770 --> 16:34.350]  You missed it.
[16:34.590 --> 16:35.570]  You're too late.
[16:35.790 --> 16:36.090]  Fine.
[16:36.130 --> 16:37.390]  You crazy-eyed fool.
[16:37.930 --> 16:39.090]  What are we gonna do here?
[16:39.090 --> 16:40.270]  Start folding in.
[16:40.510 --> 16:41.630]  I'll come in from this side.
[18:16.540 --> 18:18.940]  Well, that doesn't beat off.
[18:19.260 --> 18:20.560]  What's going on, anyway?
[18:21.060 --> 18:24.820]  Hitchcock, Jingles, sourdough, all of them vanishing into thin air.
[18:25.160 --> 18:28.380]  There's something downright weird about this whole thing.
[18:54.130 --> 19:01.230]  So what's fun for us in collaging like that is we take all these different elements, you know, that had nothing to do with each other.
[19:01.770 --> 19:05.230]  They never knew that they would end up being put next to each other by somebody later on.
[19:05.230 --> 19:16.270]  And you can kind of evoke this whole other... these very layered meanings that come through to everyone who's seeing it or hearing what we're doing.
[19:16.610 --> 19:23.470]  And I really love the fact that I really think it's about... your brain really puts all this together in the end and makes the meaning out of it.
[19:23.470 --> 19:25.750]  It's very different than if I was writing song lyrics.
[19:27.190 --> 19:36.530]  You know, and in this case, we really like the idea of just evoking this kind of mythologized, mediaized, old west imagery with all these kids stuff.
[19:36.690 --> 19:43.350]  And just every so often, we'd throw in a real bit of footage, a lot of which you probably will recognize, of real people really being killed.
[19:43.910 --> 19:50.430]  There's not much of it, but just enough to hopefully make the whole thing more unsettling in a certain way.
[19:56.150 --> 20:00.350]  Anyway, as you can probably guess from what I've been saying, we don't go out...
[20:01.090 --> 20:05.930]  We're always collecting material, but we're not... we get inspired by what we find.
[20:06.430 --> 20:11.670]  You know, we don't decide, hey, let's make a whole album all about Microsoft, you know, or something.
[20:11.830 --> 20:14.030]  We really get inspired by the material we find.
[20:14.030 --> 20:25.610]  One of the tracks that we made, which has sort of become one of our more well-known and notorious tracks, was inspired by finding a recording called, If Footmen Tire You, What Will Horses Do?
[20:25.850 --> 20:27.890]  And this is the Reverend Estes W.
[20:28.050 --> 20:30.510]  Perkle from Louisiana, recorded in 1971.
[20:31.250 --> 20:43.150]  He was talking about the communists who were going to take over in the next six months or so, and they were going to put everyone into special camps and brainwash us all by playing over a loudspeaker 17 hours a day.
[20:43.150 --> 20:46.310]  The phrase, Christianity is stupid.
[20:46.890 --> 20:47.990]  Communism is good.
[20:48.070 --> 20:48.830]  Give up!
[20:48.950 --> 20:49.770]  Give up!
[20:51.390 --> 20:52.530]  So we loved that.
[20:52.650 --> 20:55.490]  We thought that was great, especially because it was a Christian saying it.
[20:55.590 --> 20:56.890]  It was just so irresistible.
[20:57.090 --> 21:03.350]  So we decided we had to do some sort of, I don't know why, just evoked in us a sense of doing some heavy rock thing.
[21:03.350 --> 21:11.870]  So I'm going to play just a little bit of it, not the whole track, just for those of you who haven't heard it, because it led to some other very interesting things that I'll talk about next.
[22:25.150 --> 22:27.990]  The loudspeaker spoke up and said,
[22:46.480 --> 22:48.740]  Christianity is stupid.
[22:49.740 --> 22:51.520]  Christianity is stupid.
[22:55.560 --> 22:57.380]  Christianity is stupid.
[23:18.570 --> 23:20.190]  Communism is good.
[23:21.810 --> 23:23.010]  Communism is good.
[23:25.050 --> 23:26.230]  Communism is good.
[23:27.890 --> 23:29.070]  Communism is good.
[23:29.550 --> 23:30.590]  Can you hear that?
[23:33.850 --> 23:35.410]  So you kind of get the idea.
[23:36.650 --> 23:38.310]  One thing I always liked about...
[23:39.590 --> 23:44.410]  that I liked about that piece is that we never explain why it's stupid.
[23:45.050 --> 23:47.130]  It's just stupid, I mean.
[23:48.570 --> 23:54.130]  And the other thing that's nice about it is that people sometimes say, well, do you really think Christianity is stupid and Communism is good?
[23:54.490 --> 23:59.310]  And I don't really feel the need to answer that question because we weren't saying it.
[23:59.590 --> 24:00.670]  You know, somebody else said it.
[24:00.930 --> 24:02.090]  We just used it.
[24:02.250 --> 24:03.090]  We selected that.
[24:04.430 --> 24:07.870]  So, anyway, some of you are going to know the story I'm going to tell here.
[24:07.870 --> 24:09.070]  Probably most of you won't.
[24:09.290 --> 24:14.090]  But Negativland, the record that this was on, did very well on college radio.
[24:14.330 --> 24:16.110]  And we had played live just occasionally.
[24:16.110 --> 24:22.230]  We always do these very involved conceptual shows involving costumes and props and films and ridiculous stuff.
[24:22.870 --> 24:26.630]  We're from the Bay Area and we played live usually about once a year.
[24:26.870 --> 24:30.130]  But we thought since it was doing so well on college radio, maybe we could tour.
[24:30.770 --> 24:33.670]  Well, it turned out the tour was going to lose money.
[24:33.810 --> 24:36.110]  And we all were going to quit our jobs to go out on tour.
[24:36.250 --> 24:39.510]  And none of us could afford to quit our jobs to go out on tour.
[24:40.510 --> 24:48.390]  And as I mentioned, we were more and more interested in how the media worked and the source of this stuff that we were borrowing and we were using.
[24:48.590 --> 24:51.230]  And so we finally decided to do something a little different.
[24:51.230 --> 24:56.930]  We actually decided to like directly throw something into the media meat grinder.
[24:57.250 --> 24:57.970]  See what would happen.
[24:58.370 --> 25:13.350]  So we ended up, one member of our group who has a pretty strange sense of humor, read an article about a boy in Rochester, Minnesota, who had chopped up his mother, brother, sister and father with an axe in the middle of the night.
[25:14.010 --> 25:16.750]  Supposedly some sort of argument or something to do with music.
[25:16.950 --> 25:18.450]  They were a devout Catholic family.
[25:18.450 --> 25:29.010]  So in sort of a fit of black humor, Richard wrote this press release up, blaming the cancellation of our tour on this quadruple axe murder.
[25:29.270 --> 25:38.650]  And saying that Negativland was being investigated by federal authorities because of their song, Christianity is Stupid, which somehow precipitated the murders.
[25:38.650 --> 25:41.630]  Maybe there was backwards masking, something.
[25:42.010 --> 25:47.370]  And at this time, you know, there was a lot of stuff in the news about music causing people to kill people.
[25:47.830 --> 25:49.550]  But anyway, Richard came up with this idea.
[25:49.770 --> 25:57.010]  We all looked at it and we decided it was kind of a strange idea, but it was a lot more interesting than the truth.
[26:03.310 --> 26:07.090]  So we decided to put it out as a press release.
[26:09.570 --> 26:12.110]  And some very interesting things happened.
[26:14.190 --> 26:16.530]  And we learned a lot of stuff.
[26:16.930 --> 26:23.350]  Stuff I already knew kind of in an abstract way, you know, but nothing I'd ever experienced.
[26:23.990 --> 26:29.010]  And the... I'm trying to think how much to tell you here.
[26:32.320 --> 26:37.700]  We put out this press release and some zines wrote about it.
[26:38.200 --> 26:44.360]  And then a statewide music magazine read those and called us up and they did an article about it.
[26:45.020 --> 26:53.540]  And we decided at that point that we didn't want to sort of stimulate the story anymore.
[26:53.540 --> 26:55.180]  We just wanted to let it take its course.
[26:55.460 --> 27:03.080]  But what we were finding was that once it got reported, it kind of got into the media food chain, that it started to take on a life and a truth of its own.
[27:03.080 --> 27:08.000]  So I was working at the time as an assistant nursery school teacher.
[27:08.420 --> 27:13.960]  And I got a phone call from the CBS News affiliate in San Francisco, KPIX.
[27:14.280 --> 27:18.800]  And they wanted to do a story on this.
[27:20.580 --> 27:24.400]  And I was one... I've never found out how they figured out where I worked.
[27:24.480 --> 27:25.320]  That was kind of scary.
[27:25.620 --> 27:29.400]  But we all gathered together at our recording studio.
[27:29.400 --> 27:32.240]  And they came by and they did a news piece on it.
[27:32.240 --> 27:33.840]  And I'm going to show you that news piece.
[27:34.060 --> 27:36.880]  And this is exactly what... this is the news as it ran.
[27:37.040 --> 27:40.160]  And just keep in mind, this was a slow news day.
[27:40.180 --> 27:44.920]  So they decided to run this as the lead story at the top of the hour.
[27:46.100 --> 27:48.380]  So I'll talk more about it after you see this.
[28:15.890 --> 28:16.610]  Good evening.
[28:16.870 --> 28:19.750]  Topping Nightcast, a possible link between murder and music.
[28:19.970 --> 28:22.830]  Music performed by a rock group right here in the Bay Area.
[28:23.270 --> 28:26.010]  Four members of a Midwestern family were murdered.
[28:26.010 --> 28:28.350]  The 16-year-old son is the prime suspect.
[28:28.590 --> 28:32.890]  Members of the experimental rock group Negativland have been drawn into the case.
[28:33.050 --> 28:36.510]  And prosecutors won't even tell them for certain that their music...
[28:36.510 --> 28:37.990]  How their music might be involved.
[28:38.190 --> 28:39.670]  Hal Eisner has our report.
[28:41.070 --> 28:45.150]  It was the kind of murder case that friends and neighbors said didn't make sense.
[28:45.370 --> 28:52.270]  They didn't understand how an A student from a good family could murder his brother, sister and parents with an axe.
[28:52.270 --> 28:55.390]  He was not a homicidal maniac.
[28:56.150 --> 29:01.730]  He did not show any signs of wanting to hurt anyone.
[29:02.030 --> 29:08.270]  David Brom was accused in the multiple axe slayings, but now almost three months later, many are still wondering why.
[29:08.270 --> 29:12.670]  One explanation may involve a Bay Area music group called Negativland.
[29:19.580 --> 29:24.360]  Negativland's music is highly critical of the mass media, nuclear war and handguns.
[29:24.980 --> 29:34.220]  The group thinks their music is humorous, but they don't find it a bit funny that one of their songs poking fun at religion may have sparked a dispute among the Brahms triggering the murders.
[29:34.220 --> 29:42.160]  They say federal authorities asked them to cancel a long-planned 17-city tour and eliminate live performances until the conclusion of the investigation.
[29:42.160 --> 29:46.540]  The probe apparently involved their song, Christianity is Stupid.
[29:47.920 --> 29:49.600]  Christianity is Stupid.
[29:52.960 --> 29:54.100]  Christianity is Stupid.
[29:54.100 --> 29:57.160]  It's hard to listen to the cut and not laugh.
[29:57.460 --> 30:08.620]  If you have any sense of humor at all or whatever, it's hard not to see the humor and that it would result in anything as serious as this, I think is ridiculous.
[30:09.060 --> 30:12.980]  This isn't the first time controversial music has been linked to tragedy.
[30:16.550 --> 30:21.270]  Charles Manson said his murder spree was influenced by the Beatles' Helder Skelter.
[30:21.630 --> 30:27.810]  It's believed Night Stalker suspect Richard Ramirez was influenced by ACDC's Highway to Hell album.
[30:28.130 --> 30:35.950]  An Ozzy Osbourne song, Suicide Solution, became the focal point of an actual suicide case involving a Southern California teenager.
[30:35.950 --> 30:43.610]  What you can say is that music is a bystander involved to a certain degree, but most unlikely that it generated the mayhem.
[30:44.170 --> 30:46.490]  If it did, there'd be a lot more mayhem around.
[30:46.930 --> 30:59.970]  Meanwhile, the members of Negativland are hoping for a speedy conclusion to the Brahms case in Minnesota, and eventually a return to their live performances, and a career that after nine years had finally taken some positive turns.
[30:59.970 --> 31:03.370]  But a quick end to the bizarre murder case may be in doubt.
[31:03.610 --> 31:07.630]  A Minnesota judge has ruled that David Brom will face trial as a juvenile.
[31:07.930 --> 31:11.830]  The prosecutor wants Brom tried as an adult, and he's appealing.
[31:12.170 --> 31:15.130]  I'm Hal Eisner, Channel 5 Eyewitness News.
[31:15.370 --> 31:17.710]  It'll be several months before the court...
[31:20.580 --> 31:25.040]  The date for his murder trial can't be set until that decision...
[31:34.340 --> 31:37.340]  I'm Hal Eisner, Channel 5 Eyewitness News.
[31:37.340 --> 31:42.780]  It'll be several months before the court decides whether to try David Brom as a juvenile or an adult.
[31:43.000 --> 31:46.380]  The date for his murder trial can't be set until that decision is made.
[31:46.660 --> 31:50.820]  That means it's also not clear how long the band will be restricted from performing.
[31:58.830 --> 32:02.670]  Anyway, I guess something I want to emphasize is we did all this as an experiment, right?
[32:02.850 --> 32:04.910]  We had no idea that this would happen.
[32:05.090 --> 32:07.790]  It just wasn't... it was more interesting than the truth.
[32:08.090 --> 32:12.630]  And so we were really learning an amazing amount of stuff as this was going along.
[32:13.090 --> 32:22.850]  One thing that I really enjoyed is that every time anyone wrote about the story, there was no space to really get into anything about the song itself and what that was about.
[32:23.270 --> 32:26.210]  They didn't have enough room, but they always had to mention the song.
[32:26.370 --> 32:32.430]  So every time a story was written, or when we were on television like this, you always had this phrase, Christianity is stupid, just playing.
[32:33.310 --> 32:34.370]  And I enjoyed that.
[32:34.470 --> 32:38.870]  That was something that was kind of a hidden inside thing that would kind of come out.
[32:40.170 --> 32:46.630]  We also learned a lot about how if you feed the media certain kinds of stories, they can find it really irresistible.
[32:46.890 --> 32:51.710]  We learned a lot about how much the media is very irresponsible and does not check their facts.
[32:52.350 --> 32:56.950]  We learned a lot about how they cannibalize each other.
[32:57.290 --> 33:00.850]  They thought this story was true because they'd read about it in other news media.
[33:00.850 --> 33:07.230]  The day after this ran, we were called by the San Francisco Chronicle, and Richard did a great thing.
[33:07.410 --> 33:09.030]  He said, we don't want to talk to you.
[33:09.070 --> 33:12.650]  We just had a rock thrown through our window after the news broadcast last night.
[33:12.910 --> 33:19.430]  People think we're trying to publicize the band in some way, and our dishes are broken.
[33:19.430 --> 33:27.950]  And that ran as the page three story in the front section that we are now under attack because of the media coverage.
[33:33.070 --> 33:38.510]  So, in the end, we decided to shelve the project we were working on at the time.
[33:38.790 --> 33:41.710]  And we, of course, had been collecting all the media and recordings we were getting.
[33:41.710 --> 33:44.670]  We were getting people from the press calling us on the phone.
[33:44.670 --> 33:52.530]  We decided to make a record about what we had done and to document the whole thing and use all the media sources we were collecting.
[33:52.910 --> 34:02.510]  And because of that ridiculous comparison to Helter Skelter and the song Christianity is Stupid, we decided to call the record Helter Stupid.
[34:05.650 --> 34:13.130]  So, at this point, I remember thinking, well, you know, this is giving us a pretty strange reputation.
[34:13.130 --> 34:25.410]  You know, we've done something that I think is a really interesting, fun, and funny creative prank project that also sort of exposes a lot of stuff.
[34:25.630 --> 34:28.890]  But we also really were exploiting a real tragedy.
[34:29.110 --> 34:33.230]  I mean, those people really were chopped up by that boy.
[34:34.850 --> 34:36.510]  And I don't think there's any way around that.
[34:36.590 --> 34:38.810]  We had discussions about this because we felt some qualms.
[34:38.810 --> 34:41.470]  But I mean, Don in our group said something to me that's always stuck with me.
[34:41.550 --> 34:43.910]  And he said, good art does not have to be nice.
[34:47.150 --> 34:53.150]  But I remember thinking that, well, this is a strange new kind of image that's going to stick with us forever.
[34:53.330 --> 34:54.290]  This very dark thing.
[34:54.410 --> 34:58.870]  I can't imagine we'd ever do anything else that would get any kind of attention like this had.
[34:59.590 --> 35:00.770]  So anyway, we were...
[35:00.770 --> 35:05.530]  A few months after that, I was handed a tape recording at a show of ours in Portland, Oregon.
[35:05.690 --> 35:09.670]  That was an interesting tape recording of a Top 40 DJ named Casey Kasem.
[35:14.980 --> 35:20.420]  And this inspired our next very interesting project, which altered my life dramatically.
[35:20.760 --> 35:22.820]  And it's probably why I'm here now.
[35:24.620 --> 35:28.060]  This is a tape recording of... and some of you will know this story.
[35:28.260 --> 35:36.500]  But it's Casey Kasem, Top 40 DJ, also the voice of Scooby Doo and Shaggy on the cartoons, having a very, very bad day.
[35:36.600 --> 35:37.460]  Shut off that cell phone.
[35:37.620 --> 35:38.400]  I heard that.
[35:39.320 --> 35:40.100]  Stop that.
[35:43.240 --> 35:43.860]  Thank you.
[35:46.160 --> 35:54.980]  Casey Kasem is having a very bad day in the recording studio, trying to do an introduction to his radio show.
[35:55.560 --> 35:59.580]  And the way that you do that is you do a lot of takes over and over to get a really, really good take.
[35:59.940 --> 36:06.620]  And I don't know if he had a drug problem or what was wrong, but he was being a total asshole to the engineer.
[36:06.620 --> 36:10.840]  And I think the engineer's revenge was to get this tape out to the public.
[36:11.460 --> 36:12.720]  So we heard this tape.
[36:13.320 --> 36:24.820]  And just as an aside, I'm realizing that I don't think we would have inspired to make this record now, in this era, because anything like that that surfaces, someone would put it on the web and it would be everywhere.
[36:25.540 --> 36:37.540]  And it's really interesting to realize that that era is kind of over, where there's a certain kind of special, the special uniqueness of anything you can have, of a special cool record, a special cool piece of media, a blooper, a strange thing.
[36:38.400 --> 36:44.520]  You know, once any one person has it and it's up there, if you can access the web, you're going to find it.
[36:45.240 --> 36:47.120]  But at that time, that didn't exist.
[36:47.220 --> 36:53.020]  So we had these special tapes, almost nobody had them, and we were just really inspired to do something with them.
[36:53.020 --> 37:03.100]  Casey happened to be trying to do an introduction to a new band from Ireland named U2, who was having their first few hits in the United States.
[37:03.240 --> 37:04.120]  Don't give this shit!
[37:06.870 --> 37:10.050]  So, we decided...
[37:10.050 --> 37:15.370]  I think by this point, we were really starting to get into really doing things that you weren't supposed to do.
[37:15.570 --> 37:16.530]  Like, we were really...
[37:17.070 --> 37:23.730]  So we made a record that looked like a new album by U2 called Negativland.
[37:25.190 --> 37:27.210]  It sampled from U2 without permission.
[37:27.610 --> 37:31.550]  It sort of did a cover version of their song, kind of, and altered the lyrics.
[37:31.690 --> 37:32.650]  You're not allowed to do that.
[37:32.750 --> 37:35.990]  You can do cover versions of songs without permission if you pay a licensing fee.
[37:36.250 --> 37:38.330]  You're not allowed to alter lyrics without permission.
[37:38.930 --> 37:39.950]  What else did we do?
[37:40.110 --> 37:47.510]  We took the side of the record that had the most fucks and shits and swearing on it, and we called that the Special Radio Edit Mix.
[37:49.330 --> 37:50.270]  Because we were...
[37:50.270 --> 37:51.390]  And I found out it worked.
[37:51.570 --> 37:56.830]  We were thinking, we want to get some DJs to think, well, that's the version you play on the radio, right?
[37:57.950 --> 37:59.010]  So that worked.
[37:59.010 --> 38:05.950]  We put this thing out, and we didn't expect what happened next to happen.
[38:06.090 --> 38:10.430]  We thought, at worst, we would get a slap on the wrist or a nasty phone call from a lawyer somewhere.
[38:10.850 --> 38:12.550]  Because we felt like, we're too small.
[38:12.710 --> 38:13.670]  We're flying under the radar.
[38:13.970 --> 38:15.950]  You know, who gives a shit, so to speak?
[38:15.950 --> 38:22.910]  And what happened was, 10 days later, we got a 200-page lawsuit from Island Records, YouTube's record label.
[38:23.550 --> 38:24.070]  They'd hired...
[38:24.070 --> 38:30.190]  In fact, the lawyer they hired to sue us was this $400 lawyer who worked for Madonna.
[38:33.850 --> 38:35.210]  And we didn't...
[38:35.210 --> 38:35.590]  I don't know.
[38:35.670 --> 38:37.970]  We didn't think anyone would take it quite that seriously.
[38:37.990 --> 38:39.270]  But we did find out.
[38:39.370 --> 38:40.140]  It's always amazing.
[38:40.910 --> 38:44.190]  You should never underestimate how inattentive and stupid people can be.
[38:44.190 --> 38:46.130]  Because, um...
[38:46.130 --> 38:47.330]  We then heard that there were...
[38:47.330 --> 38:53.890]  Like, Tower Records were putting it up in their front of the store in a big display, thinking it was the new U2 record and no one had checked it.
[38:55.230 --> 38:55.670]  Um...
[38:55.670 --> 38:57.450]  Very strange things like that happen.
[38:57.670 --> 39:02.610]  The best stories I heard were from hardcore U2 fans who bought it and thought it was great and really liked it.
[39:05.010 --> 39:05.450]  So...
[39:05.450 --> 39:07.990]  Anyway, what I'm gonna play you is, um...
[39:07.990 --> 39:13.070]  It's just a single, but we ended up making a film to go with the B-side of it.
[39:14.130 --> 39:14.510]  And...
[39:14.510 --> 39:19.330]  The song that we were doing a cover version of by U2, it's called, I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For.
[39:19.650 --> 39:24.990]  And we ended up using this image of a spy plane that's called a U2, which is the band U2's namesake.
[39:25.130 --> 39:33.390]  Which seemed to kind of fit because it was a spy plane that was, prophetically enough, shot down in 1960 in an event that changed world history, for those of you who know about it.
[39:33.870 --> 39:34.310]  Um...
[39:34.770 --> 39:35.210]  It's...
[39:35.210 --> 39:38.710]  The Cold War was starting to actually wind down and it started it right back up again.
[39:40.430 --> 39:40.870]  Um...
[39:40.870 --> 39:44.470]  But the plane was on a mission looking for things and going somewhere it wasn't supposed to go.
[39:45.010 --> 39:53.250]  And so we ended up using all these other tapes we had of a bunch of CB radio guys who were trying to find somebody who was taunting them to beat the shit out of them.
[39:53.250 --> 39:58.030]  And we had tape recordings from old children's radio shows that were people looking for things.
[39:58.450 --> 40:00.250]  We have Casey Kasem, of course.
[40:00.550 --> 40:01.590]  And, um...
[40:01.590 --> 40:05.310]  We had some stuff with people talking about obscenity in rock and roll music.
[40:05.530 --> 40:06.930]  And we made this piece.
[40:07.050 --> 40:08.250]  This one we made completely ourselves.
[40:08.490 --> 40:12.390]  And this was all shot on Super 8 film and then edited on video.
[40:23.550 --> 40:26.190]  Now, we're up to our long distance dedication.
[40:26.570 --> 40:31.170]  And this one is about kids and pets and a situation that we can all understand.
[40:31.170 --> 40:33.210]  Whether we have kids or pets or neither.
[40:33.550 --> 40:35.430]  It's from a man in Cincinnati, Ohio.
[40:35.750 --> 40:36.810]  And here's what he writes.
[40:37.370 --> 40:40.910]  Dear Casey, this may seem to be a strange dedication request.
[40:41.110 --> 40:44.050]  But I'm quite sincere and it'll need a lot if you play it.
[40:44.570 --> 40:46.350]  Recently there was a death in our family.
[40:46.730 --> 40:48.970]  He was a little dog named Snuggles.
[40:49.130 --> 40:50.870]  But he was most certainly a part of...
[40:50.870 --> 40:51.630]  Let's start again.
[40:52.550 --> 40:53.790]  From coming out of the record.
[40:54.070 --> 40:54.870]  Play the record, okay?
[40:56.330 --> 40:56.770]  Please.
[40:57.710 --> 41:01.930]  See that I'm on, you dumb son of a bitch?
[41:02.070 --> 41:04.050]  That's the letter U and the numeral 2.
[41:04.350 --> 41:10.590]  The four-man band features Adam Clayton on bass, Larry Mullen on drums, Dave Evans, nickname The Edge, on...
[41:10.590 --> 41:11.570]  This is bullshit.
[41:11.750 --> 41:12.490]  Nobody cares.
[41:12.750 --> 41:14.910]  These guys are from England and who gives a shit?
[41:15.070 --> 41:16.010]  Oh, my God.
[41:16.470 --> 41:19.350]  It's just a lot of wasted names that don't mean diddly shit.
[41:19.350 --> 41:21.010]  Aye, he's for sure, for sure.
[41:21.230 --> 41:21.630]  He does.
[41:21.830 --> 41:22.710]  Don't know where he's at.
[41:22.910 --> 41:23.970]  I've got no good shit about him.
[41:24.110 --> 41:24.830]  This is bullshit.
[41:25.030 --> 41:25.570]  This is bullshit.
[41:25.850 --> 41:27.330]  Feels like it's portable, yeah.
[41:27.690 --> 41:28.550]  Who gives a shit?
[41:28.830 --> 41:29.470]  Who gives a shit?
[41:29.750 --> 41:30.910]  But yeah, it is cool.
[41:31.090 --> 41:34.850]  Diddly shit, diddly shit, diddly shit, diddly shit...
[41:34.850 --> 41:36.130]  Nobody cares.
[41:36.370 --> 41:38.230]  I've got a strong girl all the time here.
[41:38.310 --> 41:38.730]  Snuggles.
[41:39.230 --> 41:39.550]  Yeah.
[41:40.630 --> 41:41.110]  Snuggles.
[41:41.270 --> 41:42.090]  Oh, yeah.
[41:42.990 --> 41:43.470]  Snuggles.
[41:44.030 --> 41:44.510]  Okay.
[41:45.370 --> 41:47.370]  He was a little dog named Snuggles.
[41:53.550 --> 41:55.310]  This is American Top 40.
[41:56.090 --> 41:57.810]  This is American Top 40.
[41:58.190 --> 41:59.190]  This is bullshit.
[41:59.370 --> 41:59.730]  This is bullshit.
[42:19.530 --> 42:24.090]  You can find your fucking asshole in your fucking front when you come in, you see it?
[43:17.820 --> 43:22.540]  See, when you come out of those up-tempo goddamn numbers, man, it's impossible to make those transitions.
[43:22.780 --> 43:24.680]  Then you gotta go into somebody dying.
[43:28.300 --> 43:30.200]  Goddamn it, if we can't come out of a slow record.
[43:30.260 --> 43:31.340]  I don't understand it.
[43:32.060 --> 43:33.600]  Why are we doing these instrumentals?
[43:33.700 --> 43:34.160]  Cuz we got them?
[43:35.340 --> 43:36.660]  I don't understand it.
[43:36.760 --> 43:37.720]  This is also something new.
[43:37.900 --> 43:39.020]  I don't understand it.
[43:39.160 --> 43:40.260]  This is also something new.
[43:40.320 --> 43:41.380]  I don't understand it.
[43:42.600 --> 43:45.520]  I think that you will read more into the music than is really there.
[43:46.340 --> 43:48.680]  Will somebody find out the goddamn answer?
[43:48.680 --> 43:53.860]  In the fifties, they considered it in vulgar and despicable to have songs like...
[43:54.280 --> 43:55.440]  Each week's night, less
[43:58.860 --> 44:00.580]  optimism to something dirty.
[44:00.960 --> 44:02.060]  Who gives a shit?
[44:02.860 --> 44:04.580]  Some vulgar dirty act.
[44:04.760 --> 44:05.440]  Italy shit.
[44:06.440 --> 44:10.540]  The king's country, I can't only use the word damn to a band on the radio.
[44:11.560 --> 44:12.040]  Goddammit.
[44:12.480 --> 44:14.560]  In the sixties, it was a song called Louie Louie.
[44:14.760 --> 44:15.240]  Goddammit.
[44:15.380 --> 44:16.020]  Upside back.
[44:16.280 --> 44:16.760]  Goddammit.
[44:16.820 --> 44:18.540]  Every way they could play a movie was a dirty message.
[44:18.540 --> 44:18.800]  Goddammit.
[44:18.800 --> 44:19.840]  Never found a dirty message.
[44:19.980 --> 44:21.140]  The FBI was brought in.
[44:21.140 --> 44:22.300]  Oh, fuck.
[44:22.940 --> 44:26.380]  Uh, in the seventies, people went to the same experience.
[44:26.740 --> 44:29.020]  Looking for the dirtyness of the song.
[44:36.780 --> 44:37.360]  I...
[44:38.660 --> 44:41.760]  I really don't think that this is a kind of message to say anything.
[44:42.320 --> 44:44.180]  You can't fucking find a man.
[44:44.480 --> 44:44.900]  It's Knuckles.
[44:45.300 --> 44:47.440]  You better be prepared to meet you later.
[44:47.740 --> 44:48.080]  Fuck.
[44:50.820 --> 44:54.460]  I said I was no one of those gay people, boys.
[45:00.400 --> 45:01.280]  Did we meet you?
[45:01.380 --> 45:01.680]  Fuck.
[45:02.140 --> 45:02.980]  It's Knuckles.
[45:03.220 --> 45:08.900]  I'll be receiving the auto parts on it.
[45:09.060 --> 45:09.320]  Okay.
[45:09.520 --> 45:10.720]  You can't miss me, Sonny.
[45:10.840 --> 45:10.940]  Okay.
[45:11.040 --> 45:13.820]  It sounds like a real safety drafter now, doesn't it?
[45:14.000 --> 45:14.260]  Okay.
[45:14.920 --> 45:16.660]  I'll whoop your fucking ass.
[45:16.780 --> 45:17.040]  Okay.
[45:17.220 --> 45:24.380]  I want a goddamn concerted effort to come out of a record that isn't a fucking uptempo record every time I do a goddamn death dedication.
[45:24.940 --> 45:26.940]  It's a god-last goddamn time.
[45:27.100 --> 45:34.740]  I want somebody to use his fucking brain to not come out of a goddamn record that is, uh, that's uptempo, and I gotta talk about a fucking dog dying.
[45:35.360 --> 45:37.440]  I gotta get some fucking performance shit.
[45:37.540 --> 45:38.920]  I'm super shithead again.
[45:39.200 --> 45:39.640]  Who knows?
[45:39.840 --> 45:41.300]  You might be the strangest kid in town.
[45:41.600 --> 45:43.360]  What is this fucking ponderous, man?
[45:43.900 --> 45:44.340]  Ponderous.
[45:44.480 --> 45:45.440]  Fucking ponderous.
[45:45.820 --> 45:51.380]  This is American Top 30, right here on the radio station you grew up with.
[45:51.380 --> 45:54.420]  Music Radio 138 called Fuck.
[45:54.660 --> 45:55.780]  Fuck you, Liz.
[45:56.180 --> 45:57.420]  Fuck you too, Richard.
[45:57.900 --> 45:59.560]  Fuck you too, Richard.
[45:59.560 --> 46:00.560]  Fuck you too, Richard.
[46:00.740 --> 46:00.920]  Fuck you too, Richard.
[46:00.920 --> 46:02.300]  And I love you, Richard.
[46:02.600 --> 46:04.100]  Oh, I'm such a nice kid, though.
[46:15.400 --> 46:19.100]  So, you know, we've never had a hit record.
[46:19.660 --> 46:22.700]  We have, like, our hit lawsuit, sort of.
[46:23.660 --> 46:42.260]  So, this, this, of course, when they, when they, um, uh, Island Records decided to do this, I guess the feeling we had was, even though we were up against these impossible odds, it was kind of like, there was this sort of feeling like, well, they don't know who they picked to fight with because,
[46:42.900 --> 46:45.500]  you know, we're, we're gonna do something with this.
[46:45.500 --> 47:00.780]  And because U2 was, at the time, and they kind of are, again, the world's most popular rock band, we realized we'd been handed this amazing opportunity, um, that the mainstream news media had to write about the story.
[47:00.920 --> 47:06.080]  It was just too interesting of a story not to write about, especially because U2 had a real do-gooder, liberal kind of an image.
[47:06.220 --> 47:14.440]  And because U2 was doing this Zoo TV tour where they were, themselves, infringing on copyright in the way they were using video imagery in their performance.
[47:14.960 --> 47:18.740]  So there was all these juicy, uh, aspects to it.
[47:18.880 --> 47:25.400]  And we realized, kind of like what I was saying, the way that phrase, Christianity is stupid, got out there in that other, in the axe murder hoax.
[47:25.780 --> 47:36.780]  Um, we realized that when they would, the news media would want to write about it for the more soap opera aspects, but what they would have to do, in the interest of so-called objectivity, is they'd have to cover our point of view.
[47:36.920 --> 47:55.740]  And what we got to talk about was, we were realizing that after 11 years of doing this work, and no one ever get, no one caring about it, we were now seeing, because of the popularity of hip-hop, rap, well, De La Soul, uh, uh, got sued by, uh, Flo and Eddie of the Turtles.
[47:55.880 --> 47:57.080]  There was a case with Biz Marquis.
[47:57.740 --> 48:11.860]  And that something was going on, where the people who, the, the giant companies that own and controlled our culture, were starting to send us this message that the only thing you're supposed to do with all this culture, and information, and entertainment,
[48:11.880 --> 48:14.360]  and news, is consume it, very passively.
[48:14.880 --> 48:20.000]  And don't think of doing anything with it, or we're gonna bring our fists down upon you.
[48:20.540 --> 48:23.520]  And we realized that this was, you know, a very bad thing.
[48:23.980 --> 48:28.440]  At the time, in 91, you know, there was no such thing as the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[48:28.700 --> 48:30.560]  There weren't events like this going on.
[48:31.400 --> 48:42.240]  And it was kind of like we'd been handed this sort of mission from God, that, okay, Negativland, you know, you have to go out and talk about it, from this, these issues from the standpoint of art and culture and creativity.
[48:42.240 --> 48:53.340]  Because all we were hearing back then were managers, and lawyers, and business people, who, who all, you know, just sound, were all people sound like the way Jack Valenny sounds now.
[48:54.940 --> 49:00.500]  We'd learned a lot going through the, the axe murder hoax of how to work the media.
[49:01.540 --> 49:05.560]  And we had an amazing little bit of help.
[49:05.740 --> 49:22.440]  We got a phone call from Sinead O'Connor's publicist, who, at the time, Sinead O'Connor and her publicist hated U2, and, and said, Negativland, would you like to have the press list for all of Ireland and England, so that you can, so you can harass them there too?
[49:22.620 --> 49:23.660]  And we said, great.
[49:25.980 --> 49:33.060]  And again, you know, so this all took place over press releases, real press releases, not email or anything like that.
[49:34.880 --> 49:43.960]  And what, it's began a saga that took four years of us dealing with it literally every single day of our lives, fighting with these guys.
[49:44.180 --> 49:48.100]  We subsequently published a magazine to document what had happened to us.
[49:48.300 --> 49:52.500]  We were then sued for putting out a magazine about being sued for putting out a record.
[49:53.900 --> 49:55.500]  That got really stupid.
[49:59.420 --> 50:00.900]  And I learned a lot of things.
[50:01.120 --> 50:07.460]  I mean, one thing I learned is that as much as I like to see, there's a lot of good lawyers out there trying to do good things.
[50:07.660 --> 50:11.120]  I essentially, in my heart of hearts, I do not believe in our legal system.
[50:11.560 --> 50:17.040]  It is not set up to work, you know, it is not anywhere remotely near being a level playing field.
[50:17.040 --> 50:18.580]  It is not about justice.
[50:18.920 --> 50:28.940]  And that was something I didn't really understand until I went through this, to see how much things could be manipulated to really steamroll us, because we just had no resources to fight them.
[50:32.020 --> 50:34.860]  Anyway, I'm going to keep going, but I can't really see.
[50:34.940 --> 50:37.040]  But does anyone have, like, some questions so far?
[50:37.140 --> 50:38.620]  How did you come up with the name Negativland?
[50:38.820 --> 50:39.640]  Negativland?
[50:40.300 --> 50:43.400]  For about 20 years we would never say we came up with the name Negativland.
[50:43.400 --> 50:45.600]  That was always a secret, because it's kind of embarrassing.
[50:46.800 --> 50:51.120]  But the name actually comes from an early 70s German electronic band called Neue.
[50:51.540 --> 50:53.920]  And we picked the name for one of their tracks.
[50:54.900 --> 50:55.980]  I was a teenager.
[50:57.780 --> 51:02.860]  I now think it's sort of embarrassing to have a band that's named after some band's song that you like.
[51:03.120 --> 51:05.920]  But I think we also really grew into the name.
[51:06.040 --> 51:08.440]  The name ended up fitting what we do really, really well.
[51:08.880 --> 51:10.560]  So, yeah, anyway, anyone else?
[51:10.560 --> 51:11.860]  Where do you get your video?
[51:13.640 --> 51:16.900]  Oh, video stuff comes, I guess, from the same thing as audio.
[51:17.140 --> 51:17.560]  You just...
[51:18.900 --> 51:21.440]  You just have to obsessively collect this stuff.
[51:21.760 --> 51:22.820]  I mean, it's just really...
[51:22.820 --> 51:24.560]  A lot of it's just incredibly boring.
[51:24.720 --> 51:29.760]  You have to wade through tons and tons and tons and tons of lousy stuff to find the good little bits.
[51:30.440 --> 51:30.660]  Yeah.
[51:33.820 --> 51:35.340]  Well, what happened with the U2 case?
[51:35.440 --> 51:41.640]  Well, we settled out of court with Island Records, because we didn't know enough about the pro bono, you know, legal's angle.
[51:42.020 --> 51:44.900]  We didn't know enough about how good of a case we had.
[51:47.900 --> 51:53.520]  And that is something that I have always regretted, because we really did have a really great case, but we didn't know enough.
[51:53.920 --> 52:09.960]  What we did do was we mounted a publicity campaign to basically not only just bring these issues out in the open for discussion, that maybe there is something wrong with this kind of omnipotent, godlike control of intellectual property, that the balance of copyright has been completely lost.
[52:10.520 --> 52:15.780]  And that's been talked about a lot here at H2K2.
[52:17.380 --> 52:19.420]  And we wanted to...
[52:20.980 --> 52:22.380]  What else did we want to do?
[52:22.600 --> 52:29.420]  We wanted to just totally embarrass these people and make them look as horrible as we possibly could, because even if we couldn't...
[52:30.000 --> 52:36.780]  I mean, I hope the fight we fought helped other people and helped, you know, get the dialogue out there and raise people's awareness.
[52:36.980 --> 52:44.040]  But at the very least, I was hoping it would at least get so many people looking so bad that they would just leave Negativland the fuck alone forever.
[52:46.040 --> 52:49.820]  And we... no, we... believe it or not, everyone keeps thinking we keep getting sued.
[52:50.180 --> 52:53.120]  We... other than these two lawsuits, we have not been sued.
[52:53.220 --> 52:54.180]  We have been left alone.
[52:54.180 --> 52:55.320]  And I have talked to people...
[52:55.940 --> 52:58.100]  Like, I knew that I... this guy who I...
[52:58.100 --> 53:01.160]  talked to who was... worked at Geffen Records when Geffen still existed.
[53:01.700 --> 53:04.140]  And he was saying, no, you did a really good job.
[53:04.260 --> 53:10.180]  He says, everyone in the industry knows who you are, and no one's going to bother you, because they just... they just don't want to...
[53:10.180 --> 53:12.180]  You'll just make them look bad, and...
[53:12.180 --> 53:13.960]  We are just leaving you alone.
[53:15.760 --> 53:16.160]  So...
[53:16.160 --> 53:30.220]  There's a double-edged sword with that, too, I realize, is that for all the effort we put into publicizing this and bringing attention to these issues, even if people supported our point of view and agreed with this, we also were publicizing the... the fact that,
[53:30.340 --> 53:34.380]  hey, if you do step out of line and do something like this, here's what could happen to you.
[53:34.660 --> 53:35.840]  And... so...
[53:35.840 --> 53:37.400]  I know other...
[53:37.400 --> 53:39.840]  uh... audio collage artists, uh...
[53:39.840 --> 53:46.380]  who kind of stopped what they were doing, because they said, well, more power to Negativland, but, my God, I don't want to go through that.
[53:47.960 --> 53:48.360]  Um...
[53:48.360 --> 53:52.580]  I think things have changed a lot, though, in terms of audio collage, and I want to... um...
[53:52.580 --> 53:54.160]  I'll come back to that later on.
[53:56.080 --> 53:56.480]  So...
[53:56.480 --> 53:58.560]  the story of what happened is...
[53:58.560 --> 54:10.360]  what happened with the U2 lawsuit and how it all settled is very complicated, and we... we put out a book which actually documents the whole thing, and sort of in our typical fashion, the book is not a narrative retelling of the story.
[54:10.440 --> 54:11.740]  It actually is the documents.
[54:11.880 --> 54:13.800]  It is the press releases, lawsuits, faxes.
[54:14.380 --> 54:19.840]  We had an overzealous fan calling Casey Kasem, making death threats against him, trying to...
[54:19.840 --> 54:24.660]  get him to allow us to have our record back, and then, in the fa...
[54:24.660 --> 54:27.880]  in a bizarre fashion of... of, uh...
[54:27.880 --> 54:32.720]  life following art, we really were investigated by federal authorities because of that.
[54:32.880 --> 54:34.460]  We all got calls from the FBI.
[54:35.560 --> 54:36.120]  Um...
[54:36.120 --> 54:39.840]  One of whom happened to be named Dave Evans, which is the real name of The Edge.
[54:40.220 --> 54:42.000]  I don't know what that means, but...
[54:44.740 --> 54:45.140]  Um...
[54:45.860 --> 54:46.260]  Uh...
[54:46.700 --> 54:47.340]  Let's see.
[54:47.800 --> 54:49.820]  Anyway, I'm gonna keep moving along here.
[54:51.600 --> 54:52.000]  Um...
[54:52.000 --> 54:53.420]  We, um...
[54:53.420 --> 54:55.280]  ended up in the book I mentioned we published.
[54:55.820 --> 54:56.220]  Um...
[54:56.220 --> 55:02.020]  We decided that since we were doing a book that was called Fair Use, which is the name of the book, and we were trying to, uh...
[55:02.020 --> 55:05.460]  At the time, we wanted to call it that, because that was what we thought was the...
[55:05.460 --> 55:07.060]  the thing we really wanted to bring out...
[55:07.060 --> 55:08.000]  to people's attention to.
[55:08.000 --> 55:09.160]  And now I'm seeing this...
[55:09.160 --> 55:10.600]  this term used all the time.
[55:10.840 --> 55:14.060]  I'm sure you all, to some degree or other, know what it means.
[55:14.300 --> 55:15.080]  But, uh...
[55:15.080 --> 55:16.180]  Nobody knew back then.
[55:16.420 --> 55:26.220]  And I could never have imagined that, one day, things like Napster would be on the front page of the New York Times, and Fair Use would be, you know, in Time Magazine, as just being discussed as an issue.
[55:27.600 --> 55:36.160]  We published this book, and we decided that since we were doing a book about Fair Use, about infringement, about copyright law, about collage, that it was the safest place in the world to go...
[55:36.160 --> 55:40.300]  to infringe on the people who are the most well-known for...
[55:40.300 --> 55:41.660]  for, um...
[55:41.660 --> 55:42.880]  for being lawsuit happy.
[55:43.020 --> 55:47.460]  So we went and used Irving Berlin, Led Zeppelin, um...
[55:47.460 --> 55:48.640]  and of course, uh...
[55:48.640 --> 55:49.220]  Walt Disney.
[55:50.180 --> 55:50.960]  So, um...
[55:50.960 --> 55:53.580]  we made an interesting track using, uh...
[55:53.580 --> 55:56.800]  some stuff that we manipulated from Walt Disney's film, The Little Mermaid.
[55:57.220 --> 56:02.020]  And a recording that we got of a music industry attorney, um...
[56:02.020 --> 56:03.440]  threatening someone over the telephone.
[56:04.480 --> 56:08.300]  We made this audio track, and a number of years later, uh...
[56:08.300 --> 56:11.960]  someone contacted us, who was a fan of our work, who happened to work on the Disney...
[56:13.040 --> 56:13.180]  uh...
[56:13.180 --> 56:15.080]  worked for Disney, doing the, uh...
[56:15.080 --> 56:18.380]  Saturday morning animated show version of The Little Mermaid.
[56:18.880 --> 56:20.380]  And this guy's name is, uh...
[56:20.380 --> 56:20.960]  Tim Maloney.
[56:21.140 --> 56:23.440]  Some of you may know he oversaw the Drop Lift Project.
[56:24.220 --> 56:24.700]  Yeah.
[56:26.140 --> 56:26.500]  So...
[56:27.920 --> 56:28.640]  Tim and...
[56:28.640 --> 56:39.540]  Negativland and Tim, we hit it off really well, and I said, Tim, you know, I've always wanted to do something taking this Little Mermaid thing we did, and try and make something using, you know, The Little Mermaid.
[56:40.280 --> 56:44.700]  And I don't know what you think, and I don't know whether you could lose your job, but, um...
[56:45.280 --> 56:46.640]  you know, would you like to work together?
[56:46.820 --> 56:47.400]  And he...
[56:47.400 --> 56:48.080]  he agreed.
[56:48.600 --> 56:52.200]  So what I'm gonna show you next is a very interesting piece.
[56:52.400 --> 56:54.500]  It's my favorite of all the stuff I'm showing you tonight.
[56:54.800 --> 56:56.040]  And, um...
[56:57.060 --> 57:04.220]  Uh, this whole thing was, uh, done on Disney's Dime and rendered on their computers between midnight and 6 a.m.
[57:04.260 --> 57:04.720]  in the morning.
[57:11.480 --> 57:15.020]  And, uh, it made for a very, a very funny little piece.
[57:15.240 --> 57:16.440]  So this is called Gimme the Mermaid.
[57:25.000 --> 57:25.520]  What?
[57:26.740 --> 57:29.520]  Rick is talking about whether it's convenience for you.
[57:29.640 --> 57:32.240]  I'm talking about over breath in this long.
[57:32.520 --> 57:33.680]  Hello, Dead Dog Records.
[57:34.100 --> 57:34.740]  I got some tea.
[57:37.880 --> 57:39.000]  I'm currently recording.
[57:39.500 --> 57:41.560]  The one you're making as we speak.
[57:41.920 --> 57:42.800]  Hold on a minute.
[57:43.560 --> 57:44.980]  I got you guys are listening to everything.
[57:48.500 --> 57:49.280]  I know.
[57:49.980 --> 57:50.500]  For
[57:53.760 --> 57:57.340]  any purpose whatsoever, either for free, or for money.
[57:57.620 --> 57:59.820]  You wanna, you wanna, you wanna test me in the court?
[57:59.820 --> 58:02.540]  If we did not buy ownership, we bought exclusivity.
[58:02.640 --> 58:07.940]  And if you wanna try and check me out, and, and, you go ahead and try and do something with it, and I'm gonna sue your ass.
[58:08.260 --> 58:09.920]  You can never use it without our permission.
[58:10.180 --> 58:10.920]  Maybe he's wrong.
[58:10.940 --> 58:12.120]  So I sent you the check.
[58:12.360 --> 58:14.600]  I own it, or I control it.
[58:15.300 --> 58:17.740]  You can never use it for anything without my permission.
[58:18.020 --> 58:23.000]  And if you wanna, you wanna challenge me, we'll go to court tomorrow, and I'll prove you wrong.
[58:23.260 --> 58:24.200]  And you wanna find out?
[58:24.360 --> 58:24.820]  Let's go.
[58:24.980 --> 58:25.760]  Maybe he's wrong.
[58:25.880 --> 58:28.480]  I'm telling you, the facts of law and the...
[58:36.290 --> 58:39.950]  You never use it for any purpose again, or I will sue you.
[58:41.750 --> 58:42.810]  Maybe he's right.
[58:42.910 --> 58:44.330]  I own the copyright.
[58:44.410 --> 58:45.430]  Get a f***ing lawyer.
[58:45.730 --> 58:47.430]  Go get a lawyer right now.
[58:47.550 --> 58:48.170]  Let's have it out.
[58:48.370 --> 58:50.690]  I am not gonna piss around with you about this.
[58:50.890 --> 58:53.330]  You can't use it without my permission.
[58:53.610 --> 58:55.130]  For anything, forever.
[58:57.930 --> 59:00.050]  Be a lawyer, cause you're gonna need one.
[59:02.330 --> 59:03.350]  Maybe he's right.
[59:03.770 --> 59:05.770]  Maybe there is something the matter with me.
[59:06.610 --> 59:11.950]  I just don't see how a world that makes such wonderful things could be bad.
[59:12.110 --> 59:13.130]  You wanna test me in the court?
[59:13.230 --> 59:14.150]  Look at this stuff.
[59:14.730 --> 59:15.590]  Isn't it neat?
[59:15.830 --> 59:16.530]  I control it.
[59:16.550 --> 59:19.150]  Wouldn't you think my collection's complete?
[59:19.970 --> 59:21.610]  Wouldn't you think I'm the girl?
[59:21.710 --> 59:22.030]  Let's go.
[59:22.030 --> 59:24.790]  The girl who has everything.
[59:25.250 --> 59:26.410]  You can never use it without our permission.
[59:26.470 --> 59:27.450]  Look at this trove.
[59:27.470 --> 59:27.890]  I own it.
[59:28.030 --> 59:29.090]  Treasures untold.
[59:29.250 --> 59:29.330]  All right.
[59:29.450 --> 59:32.590]  How many wonders can one cavern hold?
[59:33.310 --> 59:34.770]  You're looking around here, you think.
[59:34.930 --> 59:35.410]  I own it.
[59:35.530 --> 59:35.790]  Sure.
[59:36.510 --> 59:37.870]  She's got everything.
[59:38.330 --> 59:39.110]  You can't use it.
[59:39.270 --> 59:41.830]  I've got gadgets and gizmos aplenty.
[59:41.970 --> 59:42.750]  You wanna challenge me?
[59:42.810 --> 59:45.350]  I've got who's its and what's its galore.
[59:45.710 --> 59:46.450]  I'm gonna see your apps.
[59:46.610 --> 59:47.230]  You want lingamabobs?
[59:48.170 --> 59:48.290]  Yeah, I can't win.
[59:48.490 --> 59:49.130]  I got twenty.
[59:50.090 --> 59:51.510]  But who cares?
[59:52.050 --> 59:53.430]  They'll be quick.
[59:54.870 --> 59:56.510]  I want my...
[01:00:07.200 --> 01:00:08.240]  You got it.
[01:00:09.380 --> 01:00:10.220]  You got it.
[01:00:10.220 --> 01:00:10.720]  You got it.
[01:00:10.860 --> 01:00:10.940]  You got it.
[01:00:10.940 --> 01:00:11.280]  You got it?
[01:00:11.500 --> 01:00:12.340]  How about that?
[01:00:12.380 --> 01:00:13.200]  I'm gonna be copied.
[01:00:13.340 --> 01:00:14.100]  I'm gonna be copied.
[01:00:14.640 --> 01:00:16.220]  Go get a lawyer right now.
[01:00:16.380 --> 01:00:17.160]  What's happening out?
[01:00:19.240 --> 01:00:20.220]  Gimmy, gimmy, gimmy.
[01:00:20.240 --> 01:00:21.100]  I am not gonna...
[01:00:21.100 --> 01:00:22.580]  I need some more.
[01:00:23.860 --> 01:00:24.920]  Gimme, gimme, gimme.
[01:00:26.060 --> 01:00:27.180]  Don't ask what for.
[01:00:27.260 --> 01:00:28.560]  I don't surround you about this.
[01:00:28.740 --> 01:00:29.640]  Gimme, gimme, gimme.
[01:00:30.460 --> 01:00:32.060]  I need some more.
[01:00:33.140 --> 01:00:34.000]  Give me, give me.
[01:00:35.300 --> 01:00:36.740]  Don't ask what for.
[01:00:37.820 --> 01:00:39.280]  Give me, give me, give me.
[01:00:44.660 --> 01:00:46.140]  Don't ask what for.
[01:01:00.240 --> 01:01:15.020]  Give it to me.
[01:01:16.820 --> 01:01:18.080]  Don't mess up.
[01:01:18.180 --> 01:01:19.160]  Don't mess up.
[01:01:19.340 --> 01:01:20.840]  I ain't going out like that.
[01:01:21.180 --> 01:01:21.820]  I make the music.
[01:01:22.500 --> 01:01:24.800]  Try, don't mess up.
[01:01:25.100 --> 01:01:25.800]  I make the music.
[01:01:26.200 --> 01:01:39.360]  In the back of modernism and all this international law, to make profit out of his own ungenerosity to humankind.
[01:01:50.280 --> 01:01:55.320]  So, I got to be at this thing in Duke University in November called the Conference on the Public Domain.
[01:01:55.520 --> 01:01:59.020]  And I showed this to a room full of 150 intellectual property lawyers.
[01:02:01.260 --> 01:02:02.000]  It's great.
[01:02:02.120 --> 01:02:04.180]  It's like one of the greatest moments of my life.
[01:02:04.300 --> 01:02:05.140]  It was just so funny.
[01:02:06.100 --> 01:02:07.920]  Because they all were laughing.
[01:02:08.120 --> 01:02:09.700]  And I was sitting next to Kerry Sherman.
[01:02:09.960 --> 01:02:10.820]  Do you know who this is?
[01:02:10.920 --> 01:02:12.460]  This is the guy who sued Napster.
[01:02:12.560 --> 01:02:14.780]  He's the chief legal counsel for the RIAA.
[01:02:14.780 --> 01:02:17.100]  He's laughing at this.
[01:02:17.340 --> 01:02:22.220]  And I said, Kerry, should you go out in the hall and call your friends at Disney?
[01:02:22.380 --> 01:02:24.100]  And have them come gunning for us?
[01:02:24.240 --> 01:02:24.800]  Or what?
[01:02:24.860 --> 01:02:25.440]  What do you think?
[01:02:25.640 --> 01:02:26.640]  Look at what we did.
[01:02:27.040 --> 01:02:31.780]  And he said, no, no, I can see that that's fair use.
[01:02:39.810 --> 01:02:41.590]  So that's very interesting to me.
[01:02:41.730 --> 01:02:42.810]  That's very interesting to me.
[01:02:42.930 --> 01:03:02.810]  And another thing, I wanted to tell you another story, is that a couple years after we did the book, in 98, our pressing plant, our CD pressing plant we had been working with for many, many years, suddenly announced it would no longer press any of our CDs because it had noticed certain things on them that we had not said we owned,
[01:03:03.330 --> 01:03:05.970]  you know, samples we hadn't cleared.
[01:03:06.750 --> 01:03:18.010]  And it turned out these new guidelines had been issued by the RIAA telling pressing plants to be on the lookout, not only for pirated and bootleg CDs and software CDs, but listen for samples.
[01:03:19.870 --> 01:03:23.310]  Because if they're not cleared, that's an infringement.
[01:03:23.570 --> 01:03:25.690]  Well, that's bullshit.
[01:03:25.970 --> 01:03:26.670]  That's not true.
[01:03:26.830 --> 01:03:32.370]  And so we put out a... we talked to a bunch of lawyers, because by now we were friends with lawyers who liked us and would give us free advice.
[01:03:32.710 --> 01:03:37.490]  And we put out a very lengthy press release, basically saying this was like a form of prior restraint.
[01:03:37.490 --> 01:03:43.730]  If I can't... it may be an infringement, it may not, but it's really up to the person who's infringed upon to make that claim.
[01:03:43.890 --> 01:03:49.410]  And I can't... I can't have my day in court to defend myself if I'm not allowed to publish, right?
[01:03:49.930 --> 01:04:03.070]  So we put out this press release and urged... I managed to... someone else... this is where a hacker type person was able to help us, who was able to get the email address of every single person who worked at the RIAA.
[01:04:03.450 --> 01:04:16.670]  And we attached that to this email announcement and urged all of... anyone who supported what we were doing to please write a nice letter to the RIAA and CC everybody who worked there, just so they all know.
[01:04:16.670 --> 01:04:22.470]  And so, they got a lot of letters to the point where finally to my...
[01:04:22.470 --> 01:04:25.410]  And you've got to remember, this is before she was the superstar villain.
[01:04:26.710 --> 01:04:32.730]  My phone rings and it's Hillary Rosen calling me on the telephone from... she's the head of the RIAA.
[01:04:33.110 --> 01:04:39.410]  And she's saying, look, we're getting all these letters from, you know, your fans.
[01:04:39.630 --> 01:04:44.250]  And the interesting thing is that the RIAA really likes to think of itself as being a friend of the artist.
[01:04:45.390 --> 01:04:46.410]  They really do.
[01:04:47.310 --> 01:04:47.930]  They do.
[01:04:48.170 --> 01:04:51.450]  It's insane and it's obvious they're not, but they think this way.
[01:04:51.830 --> 01:04:58.090]  It's the same thing as the reason we were able to get so under the skin of the band U2, was not because we had any real power.
[01:04:58.250 --> 01:05:03.670]  It's because U2 is a bunch of guys who like to get up in the morning and look at themselves in the mirror and they think, I'm a good guy.
[01:05:04.130 --> 01:05:05.130]  I do good stuff.
[01:05:05.130 --> 01:05:11.170]  And when you do something, in whatever you do politically, activism, creativity, that get...
[01:05:11.170 --> 01:05:15.430]  Those people are very vulnerable because it has everything to do with their self-image.
[01:05:16.250 --> 01:05:20.630]  And so, the RIAA doesn't want to seem to be anti-artist.
[01:05:20.970 --> 01:05:29.750]  So, unbelievably, they came to me and they said, Well, what would Negativland like the guidelines to actually say to the pressing plants?
[01:05:29.930 --> 01:05:33.930]  Because we don't... we're not trying to stop people like you from doing your work.
[01:05:37.920 --> 01:05:40.300]  So, this is a very surreal experience.
[01:05:40.640 --> 01:05:42.540]  I have it all recorded on tape, of course.
[01:05:49.100 --> 01:05:52.040]  And... and I said, you need to amend your guidelines.
[01:05:52.040 --> 01:05:56.040]  So, it says that... that there is a legal gray area.
[01:05:56.240 --> 01:05:58.580]  That all samples are not automatically an infringement.
[01:05:58.960 --> 01:06:03.420]  And they went ahead and they actually took the language we asked them to put in and they put it in.
[01:06:03.660 --> 01:06:04.480]  They did this.
[01:06:06.560 --> 01:06:12.940]  Now, the practical reality... the practical effect of this is not necessarily so great because a CD pressing plant is a business.
[01:06:12.940 --> 01:06:16.480]  They're going to always want to err on the side of being more conservative.
[01:06:17.560 --> 01:06:30.240]  But, it did mean that we were actually able to find another pressing plant who knew about us, they knew what we did, they sort of knew what we were up to, but they... they looked at this sort of new delineation of the gray area and they actually let us press our CDs there.
[01:06:31.300 --> 01:06:38.180]  I know people... nowadays, there's still plants where people who are doing collage type work have problems, but we're doing okay.
[01:06:39.820 --> 01:06:46.360]  And that story... and the story I told you about Carrie Sherman, the legal counsel from the RIAA, tells me an interesting thing.
[01:06:46.600 --> 01:06:52.760]  It tells me that... I think that the kind of work that we were doing, I think, is off their legal radar now.
[01:06:52.900 --> 01:07:01.000]  Because with Napster file sharing, they're worrying about Morpheus and Audio Galaxy, and they're worrying about their entire business model collapsing underneath them.
[01:07:02.880 --> 01:07:03.360]  And...
[01:07:05.820 --> 01:07:13.780]  They're... all the attorneys who work for them are much, much busier doing other things than worrying about little... little people like us.
[01:07:14.020 --> 01:07:28.620]  So, I kind of feel like... I could be wrong, but I kind of feel like this... an era has kind of come to a close in that regard, where I really don't think anyone who's doing this kind of appropriation is going to have a problem.
[01:07:29.520 --> 01:07:33.120]  Unless you're making a lot of money doing it, but I don't know how you would ever do that.
[01:07:34.800 --> 01:07:37.300]  Because... the problem is still getting stuff made.
[01:07:37.500 --> 01:07:41.820]  These shorts I'm showing you, there's a lot more of them, and we would like to put them out as a DVD.
[01:07:41.820 --> 01:07:45.300]  We're working on... on... compiling them.
[01:07:45.600 --> 01:07:50.660]  I don't know what trouble we're going to run into when we try and actually replicate the DVD.
[01:07:51.080 --> 01:07:53.160]  I mean, the... the plant might freak out.
[01:07:53.400 --> 01:08:00.960]  We may end up having to find some place that does pirates' Madonna CDs in... you know... in the Ukraine to do this.
[01:08:01.140 --> 01:08:02.100]  I hope not.
[01:08:04.220 --> 01:08:14.080]  But it kind of just seems to me like at least a tiny little crack opened up in their head, where they actually could see that, okay, maybe there's these areas where fair use is not just about...
[01:08:15.460 --> 01:08:21.680]  quoting and criticism or science, but there's actually this whole other area which is just about making weird-ass art shit.
[01:08:22.200 --> 01:08:26.460]  And that... and maybe that that's okay, and we don't need to worry about it.
[01:08:27.560 --> 01:08:30.700]  So... anyway, I'm going to... I'm going to talk some more, but let me take some more questions.
[01:08:31.100 --> 01:08:35.180]  Can you turn the lights up just a little bit while I do this in the room, so I can see people?
[01:08:37.400 --> 01:08:38.840]  We also have a microphone.
[01:08:39.540 --> 01:08:39.940]  Okay.
[01:08:40.780 --> 01:08:42.120]  Or just say it and I'll repeat it.
[01:08:42.220 --> 01:08:42.300]  Yeah.
[01:08:43.400 --> 01:08:44.660]  Is your work available for download?
[01:08:47.200 --> 01:08:49.460]  Our stuff is actually... it's funny, we've actually never...
[01:08:49.460 --> 01:08:57.200]  the question is, is there stuff available for download, and there's so much of it out there on all the file-sharing programs that we kind of just thought it didn't matter.
[01:08:58.060 --> 01:08:59.620]  That's an essential location to get in.
[01:08:59.620 --> 01:09:00.840]  So, that's true.
[01:09:01.280 --> 01:09:10.820]  But we do... we do absolutely everything ourselves, and trying to run a record label, put out new records, do this kind of thing I'm doing here, and run a website means that...
[01:09:10.820 --> 01:09:13.860]  that it was actually one place where we really...
[01:09:13.860 --> 01:09:16.200]  believe it or not, we... we haven't had this stuff up there.
[01:09:16.820 --> 01:09:18.580]  Of course, if people are...
[01:09:19.240 --> 01:09:28.000]  I mean, one of the things that I think is a really ridiculous part of the whole argument against downloading is the whole notion that every download is a lost sale.
[01:09:28.800 --> 01:09:31.720]  You know, there's 30,000 records released last year.
[01:09:32.060 --> 01:09:34.500]  I think we're in the... of major labels.
[01:09:34.720 --> 01:09:36.480]  That doesn't include all the indie labels.
[01:09:36.740 --> 01:09:40.500]  I mean, the real number could be twice that or more.
[01:09:40.920 --> 01:09:44.340]  And if you're a big fan of music, like I am, you know, you just want to hear...
[01:09:44.340 --> 01:09:46.020]  there's just a million things you'd love to hear.
[01:09:46.240 --> 01:09:52.280]  And the note... so the notion that every time you're checking out a piece of music that that's somehow stealing from them is just so stupid.
[01:09:53.040 --> 01:09:53.780]  It's ridiculous.
[01:09:54.740 --> 01:09:55.400]  Yeah?
[01:09:56.060 --> 01:09:56.500]  Yeah?
[01:09:58.060 --> 01:09:59.980]  I just... I read some...
[01:09:59.980 --> 01:10:00.300]  Oh.
[01:10:01.160 --> 01:10:06.820]  I read somewhere that different corporations have actually asked Negativland to produce television commercials for them.
[01:10:07.420 --> 01:10:09.020]  Is that true?
[01:10:09.160 --> 01:10:09.580]  Oh, it's a...
[01:10:09.580 --> 01:10:11.660]  Sure, that's a good story.
[01:10:14.360 --> 01:10:15.020]  Okay.
[01:10:17.040 --> 01:10:18.030]  Negativland...
[01:10:18.360 --> 01:10:19.580]  When did this happen?
[01:10:20.240 --> 01:10:21.580]  God, 98, 99?
[01:10:22.280 --> 01:10:24.520]  We got a phone call from Wieden & Kennedy.
[01:10:24.640 --> 01:10:28.300]  Wieden & Kennedy is the ad agency that does Nike and Microsoft.
[01:10:28.880 --> 01:10:30.800]  There's a couple of hotshot guys there.
[01:10:31.040 --> 01:10:34.220]  These are the people who had William Burroughs doing a Nike ad.
[01:10:34.480 --> 01:10:40.120]  You know, a homosexual, heroin addict, wife killer, selling you tennis shoes.
[01:10:40.120 --> 01:10:43.160]  This is the cutting edge in advertising, right?
[01:10:43.740 --> 01:10:46.420]  And relative to the world that these people occupy, it really is.
[01:10:46.900 --> 01:10:49.280]  These guys called us on the phone.
[01:10:49.420 --> 01:10:50.760]  They're big fans of our group.
[01:10:50.920 --> 01:10:53.740]  We loved you guys when you were in college, when we were in college.
[01:10:53.940 --> 01:10:59.740]  And they wanted to hire Negativland, not because we're, you know, celebrities or anything.
[01:10:59.740 --> 01:11:05.080]  They wanted just to hire us to do the creation and production on a series of ads for Miller Genuine Draft Beer.
[01:11:08.920 --> 01:11:12.040]  So, I don't know if you can quite imagine how this felt.
[01:11:12.900 --> 01:11:14.300]  It was very depressing.
[01:11:15.800 --> 01:11:20.340]  You know, I thought, I thought about it for about 15 seconds.
[01:11:20.540 --> 01:11:23.940]  I thought, God, they're offering us about $30,000.
[01:11:25.400 --> 01:11:28.660]  And I am really poor all the time.
[01:11:29.180 --> 01:11:32.900]  You know, and I would sure like that money.
[01:11:33.140 --> 01:11:35.320]  God, is there some way we could justify doing this?
[01:11:35.360 --> 01:11:39.520]  Is there some way we could subvert them in some way?
[01:11:39.620 --> 01:11:43.200]  And I realized, no, we're fucked because that's what they're hiring us to do.
[01:11:43.200 --> 01:11:50.480]  They're hiring us to subvert the ad and to mock, to make some kind of mocking, cut-up, satirical thing.
[01:11:50.760 --> 01:11:52.580]  There was no way to outthink them.
[01:11:54.540 --> 01:11:56.700]  So, I told, I ended up telling them on the phone.
[01:11:56.800 --> 01:12:02.320]  And I said, this is incredibly depressing that you called on the phone, but, and asked us to do this.
[01:12:02.440 --> 01:12:06.560]  And because, I said, if you, do you understand what our work is about?
[01:12:06.840 --> 01:12:13.180]  You know, it's funny, it's comical, but in the end, it's really all about wanting to see the world that you're a part of.
[01:12:13.180 --> 01:12:15.040]  And what you promote destroyed.
[01:12:23.100 --> 01:12:31.260]  And I said, I, you know, we couldn't look, I could not look at myself in the mirror in the morning if I took the, your money, did your job.
[01:12:32.020 --> 01:12:35.120]  And, you know, it would blow our street credibility, man.
[01:12:39.940 --> 01:12:41.780]  So, we ended up turning it down.
[01:12:42.040 --> 01:12:43.020]  We ended up turning that down.
[01:12:43.180 --> 01:12:45.220]  But I, it was an amazing...
[01:12:45.220 --> 01:12:46.120]  Thank you.
[01:12:49.960 --> 01:12:51.300]  So, you shouldn't be clapping.
[01:12:51.500 --> 01:12:53.780]  That shouldn't be a big deal, that someone does that.
[01:12:54.100 --> 01:12:54.420]  Really.
[01:12:54.760 --> 01:13:03.240]  It should be that, that trying to maintain some level of an ethical, moral, and some kind of integrity is just, that shouldn't be any kind of a big deal.
[01:13:03.240 --> 01:13:16.300]  But, it was an amazing, again, it was something I kind of already knew, but it was an amazing experience to see what, to what degree, you know, the revolution will be commodified.
[01:13:16.300 --> 01:13:22.020]  That, that anything that you're going to do, that's in any kind of oppositional form, is going to be used.
[01:13:22.300 --> 01:13:33.160]  I know after the WTO protests in Seattle, the gap in one city, I don't remember if it was here or in what city, actually had a window display that had spray painted circle A's over the clothes in the window display.
[01:13:34.300 --> 01:13:35.340]  It was where, Cambridge?
[01:13:35.620 --> 01:13:35.760]  Yeah.
[01:13:35.760 --> 01:13:36.280]  Okay.
[01:13:36.900 --> 01:13:45.840]  Which is not to say you shouldn't be trying to go after these guys, but it's just a very sobering thing, that they know you're out there trying to get them.
[01:13:46.120 --> 01:13:47.380]  And you're going to do something.
[01:13:48.040 --> 01:13:53.020]  And, you know, they have people, well, Naomi Klein's written about it in her book, No Logo, which is an amazing book.
[01:13:54.180 --> 01:14:07.520]  And there's people called Cool Hunters, whose job is to go to big cities, you know, they'll get some kind of 20-something, tattooed, pierced-looking person, dyed black hair, and hang out in some scene or another, and report back to them on what's going on,
[01:14:07.620 --> 01:14:11.680]  what's kind of the new cutting edge of style, language, music, dress, etc.
[01:14:12.000 --> 01:14:13.520]  And that is being looked at.
[01:14:13.720 --> 01:14:25.300]  So there's no chance for subcultures to develop like they may have done 20 or 30, 40 years ago, where they could kind of develop and kind of get their own legs, in some way, before they got co-opted.
[01:14:25.520 --> 01:14:26.360]  Because they always do.
[01:14:26.540 --> 01:14:27.380]  It's always going to happen.
[01:14:27.580 --> 01:14:34.740]  But the speed in which it happens now, the speed in which it is kind of recapitulated back into the system is just like, so fast.
[01:14:35.380 --> 01:14:45.140]  So, again, that's not something to, I think, to stop one from doing anyone's political or creative or activist type work.
[01:14:45.680 --> 01:14:47.160]  But it's a very sobering thing.
[01:14:47.320 --> 01:14:48.000]  It's good to think about.
[01:14:48.340 --> 01:14:49.340]  So anyway, other questions?
[01:14:49.660 --> 01:14:50.060]  Yeah.
[01:14:50.060 --> 01:14:50.800]  I'm just curious.
[01:14:50.900 --> 01:14:51.500]  Would it have made
[01:14:59.550 --> 01:15:02.810]  a difference if it was some other product that we liked?
[01:15:03.010 --> 01:15:04.550]  I don't really think so.
[01:15:04.710 --> 01:15:05.670]  I just think the whole act of doing it.
[01:15:05.710 --> 01:15:10.990]  Or someone might say, would you do it if they gave you $300,000 or $3 million, you know?
[01:15:11.450 --> 01:15:12.430]  It's like, well, they didn't.
[01:15:12.550 --> 01:15:14.710]  So I can't... I don't know.
[01:15:15.990 --> 01:15:19.390]  We don't have... I mean, believe... I don't know what I'm coming... how I'm coming across.
[01:15:19.550 --> 01:15:22.530]  But Negativland does not have some absolute rules about anything we do.
[01:15:22.530 --> 01:15:25.530]  It's just like on a case-by-case basis, you sort of say, what are we going to do here?
[01:15:26.290 --> 01:15:27.550]  So... so, yeah.
[01:15:28.670 --> 01:15:29.090]  Yes?
[01:15:29.370 --> 01:15:32.880]  The what?
[01:15:33.460 --> 01:15:37.000]  When the group tried to contact Casey Kasem and his response.
[01:15:38.230 --> 01:15:41.580]  Oh, you're just wondering about when we tried to directly contact Casey Kasem?
[01:15:41.580 --> 01:15:44.120]  Well, he actually responded.
[01:15:45.420 --> 01:15:46.380]  Well, that's... hmm.
[01:15:46.560 --> 01:15:47.280]  That's kind of complicated.
[01:15:47.360 --> 01:15:48.980]  I'm trying to think of a simple way to answer that.
[01:15:49.120 --> 01:15:50.110]  It's not too long.
[01:15:50.280 --> 01:15:50.340]  The book.
[01:15:50.340 --> 01:15:51.230]  Yeah, the book's very good.
[01:15:52.080 --> 01:15:52.460]  But...
[01:15:53.520 --> 01:15:53.900]  Just...
[01:15:53.900 --> 01:16:02.300]  No, we... well, I don't know how many of you know this book called Hitman by Frederick Dannen, which details all the payola and corruption in the music industry.
[01:16:02.440 --> 01:16:03.560]  It still goes on to this day.
[01:16:04.920 --> 01:16:06.920]  We sent him a letter with that...
[01:16:06.920 --> 01:16:14.650]  No, he sent us a letter urging us to sort of stop bugging him and sent us a copy of The Power of Positive Thinking.
[01:16:16.340 --> 01:16:16.900]  So, yeah.
[01:16:17.020 --> 01:16:20.200]  We sent him a copy of this book, Hitman, to sort of say, well...
[01:16:21.000 --> 01:16:24.730]  I mean, in fact, Casey Kasem, and this is why we were able to get under his skin.
[01:16:24.860 --> 01:16:27.650]  Casey Kasem is an animal rights activist.
[01:16:27.770 --> 01:16:31.650]  He has been arrested for civil disobedience for protesting nuclear testing.
[01:16:31.980 --> 01:16:36.360]  He is one of the only people in Hollywood who spoke out against the invasion of Iraq.
[01:16:37.500 --> 01:16:42.060]  So, relative to the system he is a part of, he's a really interesting and remarkable guy.
[01:16:42.340 --> 01:16:46.580]  And, again, another guy who really wants to think he's a good guy when he looks at himself in the morning.
[01:16:46.770 --> 01:16:53.020]  So, some of the stuff that spun out of the lawsuit against us really did get under his skin in that kind of way.
[01:16:54.040 --> 01:16:54.440]  So...
[01:16:54.440 --> 01:16:58.460]  Going back to the Christianity is stupid thing.
[01:16:58.460 --> 01:17:04.040]  I read somewhere that you actually were at a party and talked to him who lived in the town.
[01:17:04.650 --> 01:17:05.560]  Is that correct?
[01:17:07.240 --> 01:17:08.020]  That's true.
[01:17:09.660 --> 01:17:17.230]  This is just one of these strange things where you're doing this art that's very removed from this stuff and then suddenly you're hit in the face by the reality of it.
[01:17:17.230 --> 01:17:28.150]  And, no, just very recently I was actually at a party where I met some people who grew up with the boy who killed his mother, brother, sister, and father with an axe.
[01:17:28.150 --> 01:17:30.240]  And they told me this story.
[01:17:30.700 --> 01:17:33.080]  Well, one, they hated our group for doing what we did.
[01:17:33.840 --> 01:17:35.920]  They hated me even though they didn't know me.
[01:17:36.440 --> 01:17:50.770]  But the thing they told me that was so mind-blowing was it turned out that David Brom, the axe murderer's brother, Joe, ran a little tiny punk rock record store in the basement of their parents' house.
[01:17:51.080 --> 01:17:57.120]  And that they had Negativland records in that store, in the house.
[01:17:57.610 --> 01:18:03.840]  And that when the town was... people were looking for some kind of explanation of why did this happen, really.
[01:18:03.990 --> 01:18:05.650]  Because no one wanted to look at...
[01:18:05.650 --> 01:18:10.880]  Well, this happened because this kid has been brutalized by these parents who were making him go...
[01:18:10.880 --> 01:18:17.690]  I later found out that he was forced to go to mass at church something like four times a week.
[01:18:18.030 --> 01:18:19.150]  Is the battery dying?
[01:18:19.950 --> 01:18:20.820]  They're cutting out right here.
[01:18:22.250 --> 01:18:25.000]  He just lost the sound from the front right here.
[01:18:26.100 --> 01:18:26.700]  Anyway...
[01:18:29.980 --> 01:18:38.960]  And what I heard was that our fabricated news story connecting our music to the axe murder made its way back to the town.
[01:18:39.240 --> 01:18:44.270]  And actually people started thinking that that was the reason why the axe murders happened.
[01:18:45.030 --> 01:18:53.030]  So this incredibly bizarre loop, feedback loop happened much... went even way further than we ever knew.
[01:18:53.200 --> 01:18:54.620]  So I only found that out recently.
[01:18:54.800 --> 01:18:55.660]  It was pretty strange.
[01:18:56.900 --> 01:18:57.460]  So...
[01:19:03.850 --> 01:19:06.310]  You had to talk to YouTube.
[01:19:07.030 --> 01:19:09.410]  Do something that the television program brought you on?
[01:19:09.610 --> 01:19:10.650]  Or was it a surprise?
[01:19:10.870 --> 01:19:11.510]  Or a magazine?
[01:19:11.930 --> 01:19:20.250]  No, we got to... a magazine called Mondo 2000 was approached by YouTube because YouTube wanted to be in the magazine.
[01:19:21.090 --> 01:19:24.610]  Because they were going for this new kind of cyberpunk kind of image, right?
[01:19:24.890 --> 01:19:25.950]  So they thought that fit.
[01:19:26.190 --> 01:19:29.670]  So one of the editors of YouTube who was slightly friends with us...
[01:19:29.670 --> 01:19:35.610]  And he called us on the phone and he said, Mark, would you like to do the interview with The Edge?
[01:19:37.530 --> 01:19:39.290]  And you can do whatever you want.
[01:19:39.770 --> 01:19:40.650]  And we did.
[01:19:40.850 --> 01:19:41.290]  We had a...
[01:19:42.270 --> 01:19:42.670]  And...
[01:19:42.670 --> 01:19:44.930]  And had a very interesting time on the phone with him.
[01:19:45.870 --> 01:19:46.270]  But...
[01:19:46.270 --> 01:19:47.790]  That would take too long to explain.
[01:19:48.150 --> 01:19:48.550]  But...
[01:19:49.370 --> 01:19:50.250]  Yeah, you know, yeah.
[01:19:50.330 --> 01:19:50.710]  It's all...
[01:19:50.710 --> 01:19:53.230]  The book we published, the whole thing is completely transcribed.
[01:19:54.390 --> 01:19:56.050]  I'm hoping for...
[01:19:56.970 --> 01:20:00.790]  If you've got questions that are about bigger stuff than just some of our soap opera stuff.
[01:20:00.910 --> 01:20:02.350]  Because I think given what we're...
[01:20:02.350 --> 01:20:05.370]  What this whole event is about, that would be good to try and speak to.
[01:20:05.370 --> 01:20:05.970]  So...
[01:20:05.970 --> 01:20:06.930]  Those kind of questions.
[01:20:07.370 --> 01:20:07.610]  So, yeah.
[01:20:13.070 --> 01:20:13.590]  Radio.
[01:20:13.770 --> 01:20:16.010]  Well, this amazing thing is happening with Clear Channel.
[01:20:16.250 --> 01:20:18.830]  Has bought up every single radio station in the country.
[01:20:19.150 --> 01:20:20.210]  And they're turning...
[01:20:20.210 --> 01:20:22.250]  All the radio is everywhere sounding the same.
[01:20:22.610 --> 01:20:25.150]  And this kind of interesting thing is happening where...
[01:20:26.890 --> 01:20:27.410]  It...
[01:20:27.990 --> 01:20:28.930]  It's starting to...
[01:20:28.930 --> 01:20:30.430]  It's seemingly starting to backfire.
[01:20:30.810 --> 01:20:32.790]  Their market share is going down.
[01:20:32.810 --> 01:20:35.330]  Because people really want to hear more diversity.
[01:20:36.050 --> 01:20:37.010]  And there was...
[01:20:37.010 --> 01:20:39.010]  I read an interesting study and I never know what to think.
[01:20:39.010 --> 01:20:40.250]  I never trust studies.
[01:20:40.450 --> 01:20:42.850]  But a study that was questioning people who did...
[01:20:42.850 --> 01:20:47.350]  Who were on Napster in various music file sharing programs.
[01:20:48.170 --> 01:20:50.450]  And they asked people like...
[01:20:50.910 --> 01:20:51.850]  Before you got on...
[01:20:51.850 --> 01:20:53.470]  Before you were using this...
[01:20:53.470 --> 01:20:54.410]  These programs.
[01:20:54.650 --> 01:20:56.270]  What would you say your musical...
[01:20:56.270 --> 01:20:57.670]  What were you a fan of musically?
[01:20:57.870 --> 01:20:58.910]  And what do you like now?
[01:20:58.910 --> 01:21:00.570]  And what they found was that...
[01:21:00.570 --> 01:21:01.670]  A huge number...
[01:21:01.670 --> 01:21:03.010]  Like 60% of the people...
[01:21:03.010 --> 01:21:05.050]  After being on something like Napster...
[01:21:05.450 --> 01:21:06.730]  And being able to explore...
[01:21:06.730 --> 01:21:07.970]  And try out new stuff...
[01:21:07.970 --> 01:21:09.950]  And get beyond what was on just top 40 radio...
[01:21:10.470 --> 01:21:11.150]  Now said...
[01:21:11.150 --> 01:21:12.390]  I don't just like heavy metal.
[01:21:12.550 --> 01:21:13.170]  I like...
[01:21:13.170 --> 01:21:13.910]  You know...
[01:21:13.910 --> 01:21:15.610]  This country western or electronica.
[01:21:15.730 --> 01:21:16.930]  Or I like this ambient techno...
[01:21:17.550 --> 01:21:17.650]  Whatever.
[01:21:17.970 --> 01:21:18.310]  And that...
[01:21:18.810 --> 01:21:20.450]  This amazing thing was happening...
[01:21:20.450 --> 01:21:21.070]  Where in fact people...
[01:21:21.070 --> 01:21:22.090]  Are craving...
[01:21:23.210 --> 01:21:24.170]  More diversity...
[01:21:24.170 --> 01:21:24.610]  And more...
[01:21:24.610 --> 01:21:25.270]  More stuff.
[01:21:26.210 --> 01:21:26.570]  So this...
[01:21:26.570 --> 01:21:28.110]  So this interesting thing is happening...
[01:21:28.110 --> 01:21:28.370]  And I've been...
[01:21:28.370 --> 01:21:30.070]  I've been thinking this about corporations...
[01:21:31.090 --> 01:21:31.810]  In general.
[01:21:33.770 --> 01:21:34.910]  Looking at what happened...
[01:21:34.910 --> 01:21:35.790]  With WorldCom...
[01:21:35.790 --> 01:21:36.190]  And with Enron...
[01:21:37.510 --> 01:21:37.990]  Is...
[01:21:37.990 --> 01:21:38.230]  This...
[01:21:38.930 --> 01:21:39.970]  It used to be...
[01:21:39.970 --> 01:21:41.150]  That the way you ran your business...
[01:21:41.150 --> 01:21:42.170]  Was you were looking at...
[01:21:42.170 --> 01:21:42.830]  An economic...
[01:21:42.830 --> 01:21:44.270]  An economic model...
[01:21:44.270 --> 01:21:45.150]  That looked ahead...
[01:21:45.150 --> 01:21:46.050]  To say 5...
[01:21:46.050 --> 01:21:46.410]  10...
[01:21:46.410 --> 01:21:46.870]  20...
[01:21:46.870 --> 01:21:47.510]  50 years.
[01:21:47.970 --> 01:21:49.350]  This thing has evolved now...
[01:21:49.350 --> 01:21:50.310]  Where it's all about make...
[01:21:50.310 --> 01:21:51.050]  Showing that you can make...
[01:21:51.070 --> 01:21:52.190]  A profit in...
[01:21:52.190 --> 01:21:53.070]  By quarterly...
[01:21:54.270 --> 01:21:55.070]  Because it's all tied...
[01:21:55.070 --> 01:21:56.410]  To your stock option plan...
[01:21:56.410 --> 01:21:56.870]  So what...
[01:21:56.870 --> 01:21:57.570]  So if you...
[01:21:57.570 --> 01:21:58.470]  Fire...
[01:21:58.840 --> 01:22:00.250]  30,000 employees...
[01:22:00.250 --> 01:22:01.790]  And your stock goes up...
[01:22:01.790 --> 01:22:02.990]  That's good...
[01:22:02.990 --> 01:22:04.110]  That's not actually good...
[01:22:04.110 --> 01:22:04.890]  That's stupid...
[01:22:04.890 --> 01:22:05.090]  But...
[01:22:05.840 --> 01:22:06.110]  But...
[01:22:06.110 --> 01:22:07.010]  It looks good...
[01:22:07.010 --> 01:22:07.230]  And the...
[01:22:07.230 --> 01:22:08.950]  The CEO who made the decision...
[01:22:08.950 --> 01:22:09.350]  Because his...
[01:22:09.350 --> 01:22:11.750]  Pay is tied to the stock options...
[01:22:11.750 --> 01:22:12.090]  You know...
[01:22:12.090 --> 01:22:13.910]  He gets more pay...
[01:22:13.910 --> 01:22:14.930]  Anyway...
[01:22:14.930 --> 01:22:15.770]  So there's this...
[01:22:15.770 --> 01:22:17.250]  Imperative built in...
[01:22:17.250 --> 01:22:17.730]  That's evolved...
[01:22:17.730 --> 01:22:19.230]  Particularly over the last 10 years...
[01:22:19.230 --> 01:22:19.630]  Which is...
[01:22:19.630 --> 01:22:20.490]  Grow or die...
[01:22:21.070 --> 01:22:21.570]  The company...
[01:22:21.570 --> 01:22:22.870]  You must grow or die...
[01:22:22.870 --> 01:22:24.190]  There's no such model...
[01:22:24.190 --> 01:22:25.070]  In the corporate world...
[01:22:25.070 --> 01:22:26.070]  Of sustainability...
[01:22:27.090 --> 01:22:28.470]  Well I think that's starting...
[01:22:28.470 --> 01:22:29.590]  To bite them in the ass...
[01:22:29.590 --> 01:22:30.810]  In a really interesting way...
[01:22:30.810 --> 01:22:32.090]  Because you can't grow forever...
[01:22:32.930 --> 01:22:33.150]  It...
[01:22:33.150 --> 01:22:34.250]  It can't be done...
[01:22:34.890 --> 01:22:35.850]  You could consolidate...
[01:22:35.850 --> 01:22:36.890]  The record labels down...
[01:22:36.890 --> 01:22:37.370]  From eight...
[01:22:37.370 --> 01:22:37.770]  To seven...
[01:22:37.770 --> 01:22:38.230]  To six...
[01:22:38.230 --> 01:22:39.170]  To the now five...
[01:22:39.170 --> 01:22:40.070]  But are you gonna get away...
[01:22:40.070 --> 01:22:40.670]  With four...
[01:22:40.670 --> 01:22:41.270]  Or three...
[01:22:41.270 --> 01:22:42.090]  Or two...
[01:22:42.090 --> 01:22:43.890]  Are people gonna let that happen...
[01:22:43.890 --> 01:22:45.510]  Even people who wanna let you do it...
[01:22:45.510 --> 01:22:45.910]  Who want...
[01:22:45.910 --> 01:22:47.130]  Who you're paying off in Congress...
[01:22:48.770 --> 01:22:49.530]  You can't...
[01:22:49.530 --> 01:22:50.310]  There's a certain point...
[01:22:50.310 --> 01:22:51.390]  Where you can't keep growing...
[01:22:51.390 --> 01:22:51.610]  Or...
[01:22:51.610 --> 01:22:52.530]  And look at what's...
[01:22:52.530 --> 01:22:53.830]  Looking what's happened with...
[01:22:53.830 --> 01:22:54.530]  Vivendi...
[01:22:54.530 --> 01:22:55.630]  And with WorldCom...
[01:22:55.630 --> 01:22:56.530]  And it would appear...
[01:22:56.530 --> 01:22:58.210]  That they've gotten to be so big...
[01:22:58.210 --> 01:22:58.550]  That...
[01:23:07.290 --> 01:23:07.730]  That...
[01:23:08.810 --> 01:23:09.370]  So...
[01:23:09.370 --> 01:23:10.350]  I'm kind of wondering...
[01:23:10.350 --> 01:23:11.170]  What's gonna be happening...
[01:23:11.170 --> 01:23:12.030]  Over the next five...
[01:23:12.030 --> 01:23:12.830]  Ten years...
[01:23:12.830 --> 01:23:13.410]  As this...
[01:23:13.410 --> 01:23:13.630]  You know...
[01:23:13.630 --> 01:23:14.530]  This incredible...
[01:23:14.530 --> 01:23:15.390]  Frightening push...
[01:23:15.390 --> 01:23:16.830]  To the consolidation of everything...
[01:23:16.830 --> 01:23:18.250]  The corporatization of everything...
[01:23:18.250 --> 01:23:19.690]  On the fucking planet...
[01:23:19.690 --> 01:23:20.770]  But...
[01:23:20.770 --> 01:23:21.550]  But...
[01:23:21.550 --> 01:23:22.090]  But...
[01:23:22.090 --> 01:23:23.190]  But maybe there's some kind of...
[01:23:23.190 --> 01:23:24.510]  Weird self-correcting thing...
[01:23:24.510 --> 01:23:25.950]  That starts to kick in...
[01:23:25.950 --> 01:23:26.310]  That...
[01:23:26.310 --> 01:23:28.730]  Occasionally makes me optimistic...
[01:23:32.540 --> 01:23:33.580]  I know...
[01:23:34.640 --> 01:23:35.520]  I don't know...
[01:23:35.520 --> 01:23:36.240]  It's interesting...
[01:23:36.760 --> 01:23:37.040]  I'm...
[01:23:37.040 --> 01:23:37.260]  Personally...
[01:23:37.260 --> 01:23:38.480]  What worries me is...
[01:23:38.480 --> 01:23:39.220]  I mean...
[01:23:40.820 --> 01:23:42.320]  There's a bazillion...
[01:23:42.320 --> 01:23:43.940]  Microwave transmitters...
[01:23:43.940 --> 01:23:44.500]  That have gone up...
[01:23:44.500 --> 01:23:45.280]  All over this country...
[01:23:45.280 --> 01:23:46.600]  That are blasting my body...
[01:23:46.600 --> 01:23:47.400]  Everywhere I go...
[01:23:47.400 --> 01:23:48.160]  And I'm kind of...
[01:23:48.160 --> 01:23:49.440]  A little bit worried about...
[01:23:49.440 --> 01:23:49.820]  You know...
[01:23:49.820 --> 01:23:50.220]  In fact...
[01:23:50.220 --> 01:23:51.100]  This is...
[01:23:51.100 --> 01:23:52.340]  Maybe show how ignorant I am...
[01:23:52.340 --> 01:23:52.580]  But...
[01:23:52.580 --> 01:23:54.980]  I only just realized...
[01:23:54.980 --> 01:23:56.280]  That for Sprint...
[01:23:56.280 --> 01:23:57.660]  And VoiceStream...
[01:23:57.660 --> 01:23:58.000]  And...
[01:23:58.000 --> 01:23:58.360]  And...
[01:23:58.360 --> 01:23:59.260]  Nextel...
[01:23:59.260 --> 01:24:00.540]  That every single one of those...
[01:24:00.540 --> 01:24:01.320]  Wireless...
[01:24:02.340 --> 01:24:02.860]  Systems...
[01:24:02.860 --> 01:24:04.700]  Has their own set of towers...
[01:24:04.700 --> 01:24:06.420]  So there's not just one set out there...
[01:24:06.420 --> 01:24:06.920]  Everywhere...
[01:24:06.920 --> 01:24:07.560]  There's like...
[01:24:08.360 --> 01:24:09.760]  Many, many, many, many of them...
[01:24:09.760 --> 01:24:11.040]  And the more we go to...
[01:24:11.040 --> 01:24:11.600]  Wireless...
[01:24:11.600 --> 01:24:12.960]  You know...
[01:24:12.960 --> 01:24:14.300]  There isn't enough being...
[01:24:14.300 --> 01:24:15.500]  It should be looked at as a...
[01:24:15.500 --> 01:24:17.020]  As a health issue...
[01:24:17.020 --> 01:24:17.180]  And...
[01:24:17.180 --> 01:24:18.640]  And examined before we're all...
[01:24:18.640 --> 01:24:20.340]  But we're being plunged into a world...
[01:24:20.340 --> 01:24:21.980]  Where we're being blasted with it...
[01:24:21.980 --> 01:24:22.560]  So...
[01:24:22.560 --> 01:24:24.220]  Wireless is a lot of fun...
[01:24:24.220 --> 01:24:24.800]  But it...
[01:24:24.800 --> 01:24:25.160]  It's...
[01:24:25.160 --> 01:24:26.000]  I think it's a lot...
[01:24:26.000 --> 01:24:27.920]  We ought to be a lot more scared of it...
[01:24:30.540 --> 01:24:31.060]  So...
[01:24:31.060 --> 01:24:32.220]  Let's see...
[01:24:32.220 --> 01:24:32.940]  Um...
[01:24:32.940 --> 01:24:33.300]  Uh...
[01:24:33.300 --> 01:24:33.680]  Yeah...
[01:24:33.680 --> 01:24:33.980]  Whoops...
[01:24:33.980 --> 01:24:34.580]  I'm sorry...
[01:24:34.580 --> 01:24:36.060]  Go ahead...
[01:24:38.990 --> 01:24:40.210]  Well, what would you think?
[01:24:40.550 --> 01:24:41.070]  That
[01:24:44.600 --> 01:24:47.520]  people should just start from scratch on their own or what?
[01:24:47.940 --> 01:24:48.460]  I...
[01:24:48.460 --> 01:24:49.780]  It's really none of my business...
[01:24:49.780 --> 01:24:50.320]  I mean...
[01:24:50.320 --> 01:24:52.960]  We keep a list on our website...
[01:24:52.960 --> 01:24:54.040]  Of negative samples...
[01:24:54.040 --> 01:24:55.580]  Of all the people we find out about...
[01:24:55.580 --> 01:24:56.880]  Who've sampled from us...
[01:24:56.880 --> 01:24:57.400]  And...
[01:24:57.400 --> 01:24:59.220]  And I think it's a lot of fun...
[01:24:59.220 --> 01:24:59.380]  Uh...
[01:24:59.380 --> 01:25:00.440]  I heard a...
[01:25:00.440 --> 01:25:01.840]  This great dance track...
[01:25:01.840 --> 01:25:02.880]  In this kind of a...
[01:25:02.880 --> 01:25:03.820]  Indian disco style...
[01:25:03.820 --> 01:25:05.080]  Called Bhangra...
[01:25:05.080 --> 01:25:05.720]  And...
[01:25:05.720 --> 01:25:06.160]  Uh...
[01:25:06.160 --> 01:25:07.440]  Sampled from Negativland...
[01:25:07.440 --> 01:25:09.740]  And the idea that our music made us all the way over...
[01:25:09.740 --> 01:25:10.900]  All the way over to India...
[01:25:10.900 --> 01:25:13.000]  And someone was inspired to take something from us...
[01:25:13.000 --> 01:25:13.120]  And...
[01:25:13.120 --> 01:25:13.740]  And use it...
[01:25:13.740 --> 01:25:16.800]  I thought it was fantastic...
[01:25:17.260 --> 01:25:19.100]  The best story though of that...
[01:25:19.100 --> 01:25:20.280]  Is when I've been asked...
[01:25:20.280 --> 01:25:21.120]  I have been asked...
[01:25:21.120 --> 01:25:21.280]  You know...
[01:25:21.280 --> 01:25:23.940]  Well, what would you do if someone stole something from Negativland...
[01:25:23.940 --> 01:25:25.240]  And they sold a million records?
[01:25:25.780 --> 01:25:27.520]  Well, that's happened...
[01:25:27.520 --> 01:25:29.420]  Marky Mark and the Funky Bunch...
[01:25:29.420 --> 01:25:31.500]  Now known as Mark Wahlberg...
[01:25:31.500 --> 01:25:32.740]  Star of Planet of the Apes...
[01:25:32.740 --> 01:25:33.560]  Et cetera, et cetera...
[01:25:33.560 --> 01:25:35.700]  He did a record called Music for the People...
[01:25:35.700 --> 01:25:35.820]  Uh...
[01:25:35.820 --> 01:25:37.900]  The first five seconds of that record...
[01:25:37.900 --> 01:25:39.260]  When you put it on the CD...
[01:25:39.260 --> 01:25:40.740]  Is from Negativland...
[01:25:40.740 --> 01:25:42.260]  Stolen straight off it...
[01:25:42.260 --> 01:25:43.240]  We actually stole...
[01:25:44.380 --> 01:25:47.340]  From the part of him where he disses our sample...
[01:25:47.340 --> 01:25:49.500]  We used that at the end of the Little Mermaid track...
[01:25:49.500 --> 01:25:50.200]  That I showed you...
[01:25:50.200 --> 01:25:50.940]  Because we thought...
[01:25:50.940 --> 01:25:53.040]  If he didn't mind stealing from us...
[01:25:53.040 --> 01:25:53.520]  I mean...
[01:25:53.520 --> 01:25:54.240]  He probably...
[01:25:54.240 --> 01:25:56.180]  He probably wouldn't mind if we stole from...
[01:25:56.180 --> 01:25:57.240]  From them...
[01:25:58.100 --> 01:25:58.540]  Interesting...
[01:25:58.540 --> 01:26:00.520]  That record sold about a million copies...
[01:26:00.520 --> 01:26:02.220]  And that was interesting too...
[01:26:02.220 --> 01:26:04.100]  Because he did clear a lot of the samples...
[01:26:04.100 --> 01:26:05.140]  But for some reason...
[01:26:05.140 --> 01:26:05.780]  No one ever...
[01:26:05.780 --> 01:26:06.060]  You know...
[01:26:06.060 --> 01:26:06.760]  We weren't asked...
[01:26:06.760 --> 01:26:07.660]  Who else did that?
[01:26:07.940 --> 01:26:09.600]  Fatboy Slim...
[01:26:11.360 --> 01:26:12.240]  Sampled from us...
[01:26:12.900 --> 01:26:14.440]  And went to our now...
[01:26:14.440 --> 01:26:15.980]  The X record label we were on...
[01:26:15.980 --> 01:26:16.760]  The one that sued us...
[01:26:16.760 --> 01:26:17.660]  The SST...
[01:26:17.660 --> 01:26:18.900]  And for some stupid reason...
[01:26:18.900 --> 01:26:20.100]  He went to them...
[01:26:20.100 --> 01:26:20.800]  Asking permission...
[01:26:22.680 --> 01:26:25.500]  And they asked for a thousand dollars...
[01:26:25.500 --> 01:26:26.440]  And I got wind of this...
[01:26:26.440 --> 01:26:27.460]  Before the record came out...
[01:26:27.460 --> 01:26:28.620]  And I contacted...
[01:26:28.620 --> 01:26:30.100]  Fatboy Slim's record label...
[01:26:30.100 --> 01:26:30.320]  Saying...
[01:26:30.320 --> 01:26:31.420]  No, no, no, no, no...
[01:26:31.420 --> 01:26:31.880]  Don't...
[01:26:31.880 --> 01:26:33.380]  Don't pay the money...
[01:26:33.380 --> 01:26:34.200]  You can have it...
[01:26:34.200 --> 01:26:35.760]  We don't care...
[01:26:35.760 --> 01:26:36.120]  You know...
[01:26:36.120 --> 01:26:37.400]  It's absolutely fine...
[01:26:37.400 --> 01:26:38.800]  And I couldn't get through to him...
[01:26:38.800 --> 01:26:40.600]  The managers and lawyers I talked to...
[01:26:40.600 --> 01:26:42.300]  Of course thought I was insane...
[01:26:44.980 --> 01:26:45.420]  And...
[01:26:45.420 --> 01:26:47.560]  So he ended up paying the thousand dollars...
[01:26:47.560 --> 01:26:48.660]  To our X record label...
[01:26:48.660 --> 01:26:50.060]  Who kept all the money...
[01:26:50.060 --> 01:26:51.840]  Legally I think they were supposed to split it with us...
[01:26:51.840 --> 01:26:52.080]  But...
[01:26:52.080 --> 01:26:53.460]  We never saw any of it...
[01:26:53.460 --> 01:26:54.760]  And then the wonderful...
[01:26:54.760 --> 01:26:56.040]  Irony of it was...
[01:26:56.040 --> 01:26:57.860]  That he then licensed that track...
[01:26:57.860 --> 01:26:59.040]  To Coca-Cola...
[01:26:59.040 --> 01:27:00.980]  To be used in a...
[01:27:00.980 --> 01:27:02.920]  A Pepsi commercial...
[01:27:02.920 --> 01:27:03.760]  I'm sorry...
[01:27:03.760 --> 01:27:04.140]  To...
[01:27:06.220 --> 01:27:07.380]  I can't even...
[01:27:07.380 --> 01:27:08.900]  Sorry, I have my colas mixed up...
[01:27:08.900 --> 01:27:10.120]  He licensed it to Coca-Cola...
[01:27:10.120 --> 01:27:11.380]  To be used in a Coke commercial...
[01:27:12.340 --> 01:27:12.680]  And...
[01:27:14.780 --> 01:27:15.580]  And the...
[01:27:15.580 --> 01:27:16.080]  Bit...
[01:27:16.080 --> 01:27:16.440]  That he...
[01:27:16.440 --> 01:27:17.260]  That he...
[01:27:17.260 --> 01:27:18.380]  Paid a thousand dollars...
[01:27:19.280 --> 01:27:20.080]  To sample...
[01:27:20.080 --> 01:27:22.060]  Was something that we had stolen from somebody...
[01:27:22.060 --> 01:27:23.780]  And we had never gotten permission for...
[01:27:24.460 --> 01:27:26.160]  So we publicized this...
[01:27:26.160 --> 01:27:28.260]  Just because we thought it was so silly and ridiculous...
[01:27:28.260 --> 01:27:30.240]  This guy's just paid a grand for a sample...
[01:27:30.240 --> 01:27:31.580]  We had no right to sell them to...
[01:27:31.580 --> 01:27:33.760]  To a record label that we aren't on anymore...
[01:27:33.760 --> 01:27:35.140]  Who won't give us the money anyway...
[01:27:35.140 --> 01:27:36.400]  And you're using it in a Coke commercial...
[01:27:37.820 --> 01:27:39.460]  On network television...
[01:27:42.700 --> 01:27:43.300]  So...
[01:27:43.300 --> 01:27:44.920]  Which actually...
[01:27:44.920 --> 01:27:46.800]  Leads me into this next...
[01:27:47.160 --> 01:27:47.340]  Short...
[01:27:47.340 --> 01:27:48.860]  This last short video I'm gonna show you...
[01:27:49.480 --> 01:27:49.980]  Um...
[01:27:49.980 --> 01:27:51.620]  We had been interested in advertising...
[01:27:52.280 --> 01:27:53.820]  Obviously this is a subject that...
[01:27:53.820 --> 01:27:54.420]  Is very...
[01:27:54.420 --> 01:27:56.460]  Very near and dear to Negativland's heart...
[01:27:56.460 --> 01:27:58.520]  And we decided to do a project that...
[01:27:58.520 --> 01:28:01.060]  Instead of focusing on advertising in general...
[01:28:01.060 --> 01:28:03.860]  We decided to relentlessly focus on one single product...
[01:28:04.500 --> 01:28:07.700]  Mainly because we had a lot of material in our archives...
[01:28:07.700 --> 01:28:08.860]  That related to this product...
[01:28:08.860 --> 01:28:11.400]  But also because we thought it would kind of make for a cooler...
[01:28:11.400 --> 01:28:12.680]  Weirder art project...
[01:28:12.680 --> 01:28:13.680]  And kind of...
[01:28:13.680 --> 01:28:15.980]  It's not that we have anything particularly against this one product...
[01:28:16.400 --> 01:28:16.860]  Which is Pepsi...
[01:28:17.700 --> 01:28:19.780]  But it just seemed like by the end of the record...
[01:28:19.780 --> 01:28:22.360]  We hoped to make this record that people would really like...
[01:28:22.360 --> 01:28:25.460]  But at the end of it they would just be sick of hearing about Pepsi...
[01:28:25.460 --> 01:28:27.620]  So this is an actual song...
[01:28:27.620 --> 01:28:28.520]  Like a song song...
[01:28:28.520 --> 01:28:29.980]  Singing and lyrics that we wrote...
[01:28:29.980 --> 01:28:32.580]  And this is something where we've tried to imagine...
[01:28:32.580 --> 01:28:34.140]  What would Negativland do...
[01:28:34.140 --> 01:28:37.280]  If we were hired by Pepsi to make an ad?
[01:28:37.460 --> 01:28:39.260]  What would our version of a jingle be?
[01:28:40.440 --> 01:28:41.500]  So we're gonna show that...
[01:28:42.720 --> 01:28:44.360]  And it's called The Greatest Taste Around...
[01:29:01.850 --> 01:29:06.630]  The condolences of every person at Pepsi Cola are with you...
[01:29:06.630 --> 01:29:10.790]  I got fired by my boss...
[01:29:10.790 --> 01:29:11.450]  Pepsi!
[01:29:11.990 --> 01:29:14.310]  We have to look great for Pepsi Cola!
[01:29:14.770 --> 01:29:18.490]  I nailed Jesus to the cross...
[01:29:18.490 --> 01:29:18.930]  Pepsi!
[01:29:19.950 --> 01:29:22.230]  Well you gotta pay the price...
[01:29:22.230 --> 01:29:28.130]  Powdered mashed potatoes in the cupboard for three years...
[01:29:30.230 --> 01:29:37.250]  Alcoholic husbands driving frantic wives to tears...
[01:29:37.250 --> 01:29:40.470]  Poor old widows house burned down...
[01:29:41.370 --> 01:29:41.410]  Pepsi!
[01:29:42.270 --> 01:29:44.690]  Genius of the soft drink world!
[01:29:44.910 --> 01:29:47.950]  Yet the goddamn company pays a bill!
[01:29:48.310 --> 01:29:51.550]  Tractors plowing down the hills...
[01:29:51.550 --> 01:29:52.610]  Pepsi!
[01:29:52.990 --> 01:29:55.630]  Kids are still drinking Pepsi at the general store...
[01:29:55.630 --> 01:29:58.710]  While the ghastly stench of puppy mills...
[01:29:59.510 --> 01:30:00.050]  Pepsi!
[01:30:02.850 --> 01:30:07.170]  Beats with stinking urine...
[01:30:07.170 --> 01:30:09.650]  Muddy shards of glass...
[01:30:11.850 --> 01:30:13.750]  Burned by hot exhaust...
[01:30:14.570 --> 01:30:16.870]  Drunkards passing gas...
[01:30:16.870 --> 01:30:18.870]  You can see how much you sell...
[01:30:18.870 --> 01:30:21.970]  Children dying of disease...
[01:30:21.970 --> 01:30:22.550]  Pepsi!
[01:30:23.230 --> 01:30:26.710]  The press I delivered to Pepsi was my power!
[01:30:27.090 --> 01:30:29.430]  I can use it any way I want...
[01:30:29.430 --> 01:30:33.190]  Leading helpless teens astray...
[01:30:33.190 --> 01:30:33.730]  Pepsi!
[01:30:33.990 --> 01:30:35.130]  It's a sword...
[01:30:35.130 --> 01:30:37.150]  It cuts both ways...
[01:30:37.150 --> 01:30:39.970]  I can't find the strength to say...
[01:30:40.610 --> 01:30:41.190]  Pepsi!
[01:30:41.190 --> 01:30:42.110]  Forget it!
[01:30:42.510 --> 01:30:42.610]  Yeah!
[01:30:44.830 --> 01:30:47.590]  Bedicated ointment beings...
[01:30:48.030 --> 01:30:50.230]  Spread a painful rash...
[01:30:50.750 --> 01:30:51.030]  Bring it in!
[01:30:51.250 --> 01:30:51.830]  Bring it in!
[01:30:51.950 --> 01:30:55.190]  Old outdated software getting...
[01:30:55.710 --> 01:30:58.190]  Thrown into the trash...
[01:30:59.570 --> 01:31:01.530]  Everything still tastes...
[01:31:03.220 --> 01:31:03.680]  Pepsi!
[01:31:04.720 --> 01:31:05.280]  Dede...
[01:31:12.380 --> 01:31:14.740]  Turn the lights up again.
[01:31:19.480 --> 01:31:21.300]  Can you turn the lights up again?
[01:31:21.520 --> 01:31:22.060]  Again?
[01:31:22.260 --> 01:31:22.380]  Thanks.
[01:31:24.360 --> 01:31:24.920]  Anyway...
[01:31:24.920 --> 01:31:26.800]  I'm going to take some more questions...
[01:31:26.800 --> 01:31:28.500]  because I think I'm getting sorta toward the end here.
[01:31:29.100 --> 01:31:29.520]  So...
[01:31:29.520 --> 01:31:29.900]  Yeah.
[01:31:34.600 --> 01:31:37.220]  It's lawyers and people involved with technology...
[01:31:37.220 --> 01:31:40.080]  That are like this one, where it's predominantly male.
[01:31:40.620 --> 01:31:42.440]  And do you have any perspective?
[01:31:46.640 --> 01:31:51.000]  The question was about these... well... what is the question?
[01:31:53.220 --> 01:31:54.520]  About technology and gender.
[01:31:54.660 --> 01:32:01.020]  I certainly figured when I came out here that I was going to be a room full of mostly a bunch of boys, a bunch of guys.
[01:32:01.960 --> 01:32:02.940]  And that's true.
[01:32:04.180 --> 01:32:10.460]  And I wished there were more... I don't know to what degree efforts were made to get more women on panels that were here.
[01:32:10.540 --> 01:32:11.840]  It doesn't seem like there was that many.
[01:32:13.480 --> 01:32:14.080]  Were there?
[01:32:15.940 --> 01:32:19.100]  No, there was Robin Gross from EFF and who else?
[01:32:20.020 --> 01:32:20.420]  Linnea?
[01:32:22.800 --> 01:32:23.600]  Not enough.
[01:32:24.900 --> 01:32:27.420]  Okay, I didn't go to everything, so my apologies.
[01:32:28.020 --> 01:32:38.940]  But anyway, I mean that's something I always wonder about whenever I've been to any presentations or film festivals or any event, is I always am curious whether people are trying to, you know, make an effort to have more gender balance.
[01:32:38.940 --> 01:32:46.320]  Because unfortunately, it's too bad you have to try to do that, but I think, you know, we still live in a world where we do need to try and do that.
[01:32:46.460 --> 01:32:47.480]  It's important to do.
[01:32:49.340 --> 01:33:03.700]  One of the things, though, that really was interesting to me was when I went to this intellectual property conference I told you about, where all the intellectual property attorneys were, there was a lot of women who were there who are some of the leading thinkers in these fields.
[01:33:03.700 --> 01:33:04.720]  Pamela Samuelson.
[01:33:06.360 --> 01:33:12.800]  And I'm not sure what it is about intellectual property law, but it was, but there was a really good balance in there of men and women.
[01:33:13.100 --> 01:33:15.060]  And much, much different than what I expected.
[01:33:16.480 --> 01:33:17.100]  It's new.
[01:33:29.970 --> 01:33:30.740]  Say that again.
[01:33:30.960 --> 01:33:31.260]  Okay.
[01:33:31.910 --> 01:33:35.520]  One of the things that people are noticing is that there are new fields opening up.
[01:33:35.760 --> 01:33:40.450]  Or old fields that were small but are suddenly growing way beyond their bounds.
[01:33:40.680 --> 01:33:44.640]  You end up with a lot more women getting in because there isn't an old boys network keeping them out.
[01:33:44.860 --> 01:33:50.100]  And because it's interesting, it's new, and it's exciting, it's something to learn about, and it's challenging.
[01:33:50.380 --> 01:33:56.740]  Which is part of the reason why I see a lot more women in technology than I do, for instance, when I talk to my friends in law enforcement.
[01:33:57.670 --> 01:33:58.060]  Cool.
[01:33:58.360 --> 01:33:58.740]  That's great.
[01:34:00.180 --> 01:34:00.580]  Okay.
[01:34:01.460 --> 01:34:03.740]  Is there anyone, like, way back there that I'm...
[01:34:06.100 --> 01:34:07.220]  Yes, you who are standing.
[01:34:15.710 --> 01:34:18.010]  Oh, when did Negativland become a full-time job?
[01:34:18.110 --> 01:34:20.170]  Well, first of all, I should say I never expected it to.
[01:34:20.310 --> 01:34:25.970]  I always assumed that you couldn't possibly make a living doing this stuff.
[01:34:26.230 --> 01:34:27.190]  And how do you make a living?
[01:34:27.390 --> 01:34:28.430]  This is what I do.
[01:34:28.630 --> 01:34:29.550]  I make a living.
[01:34:29.730 --> 01:34:32.410]  I am making a living right now.
[01:34:32.410 --> 01:34:35.510]  I sold so many CDs today, I couldn't believe it.
[01:34:35.770 --> 01:34:36.490]  It was great.
[01:34:36.610 --> 01:34:38.110]  And I can now fix my car.
[01:34:39.470 --> 01:34:40.670]  So thank you very much.
[01:34:44.590 --> 01:34:47.710]  No, I always just assumed, I mean, I got...
[01:34:48.310 --> 01:34:52.110]  What I did was I had this job working as a nursery school teacher for about five or six years.
[01:34:52.110 --> 01:34:53.890]  And I would work about 30 hours a week.
[01:34:54.030 --> 01:34:55.830]  And it left me with enough...
[01:34:55.830 --> 01:34:58.670]  It was a job that I felt good about being in, A.
[01:34:58.850 --> 01:35:03.670]  And it left me with enough sort of brain power and space in my life that I could do this other stuff.
[01:35:03.990 --> 01:35:09.050]  Though I must say all the other teachers there always thought they didn't quite understand what I did in my free time.
[01:35:10.690 --> 01:35:13.970]  But that's why, like, you'll hear some recordings on some of our earlier records.
[01:35:14.150 --> 01:35:17.030]  Like, there's a little girl trying to sing Over the Rainbow with the hiccups.
[01:35:17.030 --> 01:35:18.450]  That was recorded on my job.
[01:35:20.530 --> 01:35:20.930]  So...
[01:35:20.930 --> 01:35:26.590]  And I like doing that because I think if our work has any positive effect at all, I mostly don't know about it.
[01:35:26.590 --> 01:35:27.670]  It's very, very abstract.
[01:35:28.050 --> 01:35:33.490]  And when you're doing something like working with kids, you know, if what you're doing is working, you know.
[01:35:33.910 --> 01:35:35.090]  Right there, you know.
[01:35:35.170 --> 01:35:37.110]  And there's something that's very rewarding about that.
[01:35:37.550 --> 01:35:42.910]  So, it's something that nowadays, I mean, I'm always struggling every month to try and make ends meet.
[01:35:43.070 --> 01:35:45.650]  But I have many friends who do much better than I financially.
[01:35:46.190 --> 01:35:54.730]  But, you know, they sort of say, like, well, they, you know, cut their right arm off if they were able to do something that really meant something to them and were able to scrape by.
[01:35:54.730 --> 01:36:02.910]  And it's just so painful to me to think about how many people in this country are doing work that is really meaningless to them.
[01:36:03.050 --> 01:36:05.470]  And that's what you do 40 or 50 hours a week.
[01:36:08.290 --> 01:36:10.830]  And imagine what that does to you.
[01:36:10.910 --> 01:36:14.310]  And if you're, you know, your relationship with your family or whatever.
[01:36:14.510 --> 01:36:16.110]  I think it's just, it's brutal.
[01:36:16.410 --> 01:36:17.270]  I mean, God.
[01:36:17.970 --> 01:36:19.470]  It's rough.
[01:36:19.730 --> 01:36:24.270]  So anyway, what happened was I burnt out on working at the nursery school job.
[01:36:24.270 --> 01:36:28.330]  And I decided to put more time into Negativland and see if we could do a little bit better.
[01:36:28.490 --> 01:36:29.030]  And we did.
[01:36:29.250 --> 01:36:30.830]  And that was about 12 years ago.
[01:36:31.450 --> 01:36:34.910]  So I'd still keep expecting it any day to just sort of end.
[01:36:34.910 --> 01:36:37.310]  And I'm going to be serving yogurt in the mall.
[01:36:38.090 --> 01:36:39.910]  You know, I'm a high school graduate.
[01:36:40.250 --> 01:36:40.710]  That's it.
[01:36:41.370 --> 01:36:41.810]  So...
[01:36:44.310 --> 01:36:45.190]  Anyway, yeah.
[01:36:48.550 --> 01:36:49.710]  What's next for us?
[01:36:50.210 --> 01:36:55.470]  What's next for us is we're doing a project which doesn't fit into any of the things I've been talking about this evening whatsoever.
[01:36:55.790 --> 01:36:57.210]  At least I'd like to think so.
[01:36:59.070 --> 01:37:02.290]  Though we came up with the phrase culture jamming many, many years ago.
[01:37:02.690 --> 01:37:05.850]  And it's interesting that it's being used right now.
[01:37:06.110 --> 01:37:22.630]  Now, the part of me that never wants to belong to a club that would have me as a member, many of you may be like this, has sort of been very annoyed and frustrated at seeing how AdBusters has totally commodified it and turned it into culture jamming t-shirts and calendars and stuff.
[01:37:24.310 --> 01:37:25.330]  They mean well.
[01:37:25.470 --> 01:37:31.470]  And they obviously do reach a certain person in which I think they are having a positive effect.
[01:37:31.650 --> 01:37:35.410]  But it sometimes just, you know, bugs the crap out of me.
[01:37:36.850 --> 01:37:51.590]  And so as much as we've gotten all this attention for a certain type of work in, you know, anti-corporate creative activism, pranks, hoaxes, fucking with the man, whatever you want to call it, there's a lot more to what we do that people don't know about.
[01:37:51.590 --> 01:38:00.370]  And this new project that's coming out in September is a book with a CD and a custom 6x12 die-cut sleeve thing that is...
[01:38:01.170 --> 01:38:06.550]  We've been going to automotive wrecking yards and we've been finding things inside the cars.
[01:38:06.830 --> 01:38:12.270]  And it's this collection of photographs of the cars and the things that we found inside them with a soundtrack.
[01:38:12.630 --> 01:38:15.050]  And it's a real strange project.
[01:38:15.390 --> 01:38:20.670]  It's very sort of voyeuristic, poignant, sad, funny, very hard to explain.
[01:38:20.670 --> 01:38:22.650]  And I really like it.
[01:38:22.790 --> 01:38:27.720]  I think a lot of people who like the more toe-tapping aspect of what we do may be in for a surprise.
[01:38:28.590 --> 01:38:29.670]  I don't know what they're going to think.
[01:38:30.010 --> 01:38:35.730]  But it really seemed like a good time for us to really go off in some really, really different directions in our work.
[01:38:35.810 --> 01:38:36.990]  Because it's frustrating.
[01:38:37.950 --> 01:38:42.770]  It's sort of neat to be sort of described and thought of in a certain way, but it also feels really limiting too.
[01:38:43.290 --> 01:38:44.450]  Like you're stuck in a box.
[01:38:44.850 --> 01:38:50.970]  I never wanted to... I always was proud of the fact that no one could label what we did or describe it, but now we're in the culture jamming box.
[01:38:52.890 --> 01:38:54.190]  So... Anyway, let's see.
[01:38:54.310 --> 01:38:54.830]  Yes, right there.
[01:38:54.830 --> 01:39:02.430]  I want to do a conversation about women and technology and programming.
[01:39:02.690 --> 01:39:15.110]  If anyone is interested in finding out about the gender changers, there's a group recently imported from Amsterdam trying to teach women how to do typical kinds of hardware, software, and hacking work.
[01:39:15.470 --> 01:39:16.410]  We're going to be meeting in...
[01:39:31.760 --> 01:39:35.520]  Yes, just... Give her the microphone.
[01:39:35.780 --> 01:39:36.700]  Thank you very much.
[01:39:36.700 --> 01:39:37.260]  You're welcome.
[01:39:51.830 --> 01:39:54.190]  It's that tiny, tiny, tiny switch.
[01:39:59.990 --> 01:40:01.770]  Well, she's talking about...
[01:40:01.770 --> 01:40:06.010]  If you would like to go to a meeting about women learning how to use...
[01:40:06.010 --> 01:40:07.210]  New to...
[01:40:07.210 --> 01:40:07.610]  Yes.
[01:40:09.970 --> 01:40:11.810]  It's an irony, but...
[01:40:12.690 --> 01:40:16.210]  I just went out and had some beer so my vision's a bit blurry, so...
[01:40:16.210 --> 01:40:17.490]  I'm sure you can all understand that.
[01:40:18.290 --> 01:40:38.850]  There's a group called the Gender Changers, which was recently imported from Amsterdam, first to Philadelphia, but hoping to explode all over the continent, where women are going to learn and teach each other about hardware, software, hacking, and other kinds of personal media and information technologies.
[01:40:39.290 --> 01:40:43.530]  We're going to be meeting by the information desk tomorrow at noon, because we couldn't find another space.
[01:40:43.790 --> 01:40:49.290]  So, if you're interested, there's a sign-up sheet by the mezzanine, or just show up at noon tomorrow.
[01:40:49.590 --> 01:40:50.350]  It's going to be really fun.
[01:40:50.470 --> 01:40:50.650]  Thanks.
[01:40:51.730 --> 01:40:53.710]  Men are completely welcome to come as well.
[01:40:57.520 --> 01:40:58.750]  There's a hand back there.
[01:40:58.750 --> 01:40:59.330]  Yes.
[01:41:04.260 --> 01:41:05.200]  Say that louder.
[01:41:12.640 --> 01:41:13.980]  It's corporate sponsorship?
[01:41:22.640 --> 01:41:23.640]  Well, it's just...
[01:41:23.640 --> 01:41:26.580]  I don't know if I'm understanding your question, but I mean...
[01:41:28.740 --> 01:41:30.060]  Is it a bad question?
[01:41:33.770 --> 01:41:47.610]  I don't know how a corporate sponsorship would fight our battles for us, though what I do wish is I wish that someone who's in the music business who's making real money off of samples, like the Beastie Boys, I wish that they would take on one of these cases, get themselves sued, and then fight it.
[01:41:50.930 --> 01:41:52.110]  And that would actually make...
[01:41:52.110 --> 01:41:57.930]  You know, the case has yet to come up where someone actually fights over that kind of stuff.
[01:41:58.090 --> 01:41:58.730]  For real.
[01:41:58.950 --> 01:41:59.730]  With money.
[01:41:59.730 --> 01:41:59.850]  With money.
[01:42:01.490 --> 01:42:01.890]  So...
[01:42:01.890 --> 01:42:05.350]  Anyway, we are at 10 o'clock.
[01:42:06.390 --> 01:42:10.330]  And I really am amazed that so many people came to hear what I had to say.
[01:42:10.550 --> 01:42:11.830]  I'm really surprised.
[01:42:12.150 --> 01:42:13.730]  And I want to thank you very, very much.
[01:42:13.890 --> 01:42:16.510]  And I will be out there to talk more with whoever wants to talk to me.
[01:42:16.510 --> 01:42:18.070]  And thank you so much for coming.