[00:32.350 --> 00:33.390]  Let's rock and roll.
[00:33.830 --> 00:34.650]  What do you think?
[00:36.470 --> 00:42.610]  So, welcome to the 1 o'clock session in the Paris room of H2K.
[00:42.850 --> 00:44.150]  So we're not really in the Paris room.
[00:44.210 --> 00:45.570]  It isn't really 1 o'clock.
[00:46.690 --> 00:48.550]  I think that I'm Greg Newby.
[00:48.730 --> 00:49.990]  I was this morning.
[00:52.650 --> 00:58.630]  And what I'm here to talk about is something that we've covered really in almost every session to some extent.
[00:58.630 --> 01:01.650]  And certainly got an earful of for the last hour and a half.
[01:01.870 --> 01:03.290]  Which is basically ethics.
[01:03.930 --> 01:12.290]  And as some of you might know, the process for H2K was to send in a proposal with ideas that you might have about presentations.
[01:12.830 --> 01:19.250]  And I sent in a presentation saying, well, I think what I'm interested in is talking about hacker ethics.
[01:19.530 --> 01:27.470]  But from the point of view or the approach I want to take is to see what we have in common that we might be able to sort of write down.
[01:27.470 --> 01:32.250]  To say, well, here's what it is that hackers are and here's what it is that hackers do.
[01:32.610 --> 01:43.070]  And the inspiration for this was our continuing efforts to be not vilified to say to the press and stuff like that.
[01:43.250 --> 01:45.150]  Hey, hacker is not a bad word.
[01:45.570 --> 01:51.790]  Hackers are by and large ethical people pursuing goals which are maybe lofty, maybe not so lofty.
[01:51.790 --> 02:00.450]  But often goals that are ethically or otherwise not motivated by malice and stuff like that.
[02:00.970 --> 02:08.310]  So if we take that as a starting point, the next question becomes, well, you know, what sort of code do we want?
[02:08.470 --> 02:10.290]  Could we actually write this down?
[02:10.470 --> 02:12.130]  Can we get something we might agree upon?
[02:12.130 --> 02:24.350]  And what I was originally going to do for this session when we were going to be in the old Paris room, and if you haven't been there, be glad that we're not, was actually type on my laptop and do audience participation.
[02:24.670 --> 02:31.830]  And instead what I did was, since the laptop's there and I'm here, was come up with some notes to work us through.
[02:34.090 --> 02:36.310]  Let me just introduce myself extremely briefly.
[02:36.550 --> 02:40.150]  I'm a professor at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill.
[02:40.390 --> 02:44.570]  And I teach in the School of Library and, no, it's Information and Library Science.
[02:44.930 --> 02:45.930]  They reversed it.
[02:46.190 --> 02:48.590]  So I'm basically an information scientist.
[02:48.590 --> 02:54.570]  I teach in the areas of systems administration, do a Linux course, do an information security course, stuff like that.
[02:54.730 --> 02:56.470]  This is the kind of thing that I'm interested in.
[02:56.470 --> 03:01.770]  And may have been published in 2600 Magazine, but not under my name.
[03:02.450 --> 03:05.530]  And have been interested in this stuff for quite some time.
[03:05.810 --> 03:16.550]  I did get a cease and desist letter from the MPAA, and I have a page about that because the University Council at the University of North Carolina basically censored my course.
[03:16.770 --> 03:22.350]  They forced me to take down my DVD stuff that I was teaching for my Linux systems administration class.
[03:22.350 --> 03:24.590]  So I've been interested in this type of thing.
[03:26.110 --> 03:28.470]  Alright, if we can maybe press next, please.
[03:28.810 --> 03:31.510]  We'll move forward to the next screen.
[03:32.330 --> 03:40.010]  What I did as a starting point to sort of warm up your intellectual juices was think about some potential samples.
[03:40.910 --> 03:49.450]  These are more like, not models, but more like just things to get you thinking about the idea of a common code.
[03:49.450 --> 03:52.050]  And we'll look at all three of these in no particular order.
[03:52.250 --> 03:53.590]  And the first one is not...
[03:53.590 --> 03:56.290]  I don't know if I would call it a code, but it's a statement.
[03:56.430 --> 03:57.630]  And probably a lot of you have read it.
[03:57.710 --> 04:01.630]  And maybe we can go ahead to that first, the hacker's manifesto.
[04:01.770 --> 04:05.230]  And actually, I did bring some printed copies of this.
[04:05.330 --> 04:09.790]  So for those of you that haven't seen it, I will leave it on a table in the networking room later on.
[04:13.760 --> 04:16.740]  We can go ahead with the hacker's manifesto when you get a chance.
[04:18.880 --> 04:28.900]  This was written in 1986 by a gentleman who was spending some unfortunate time as a ward of the state.
[04:34.070 --> 04:34.590]  Oh, yeah.
[04:34.690 --> 04:35.850]  Could you click next, please?
[04:36.050 --> 04:36.270]  Sorry.
[04:36.570 --> 04:37.370]  I wasn't clear.
[04:38.150 --> 04:38.470]  Thanks.
[04:38.630 --> 04:42.090]  And what we'll do, I'm not going to read this whole thing to you because it'll take a little longer than I want to do.
[04:42.250 --> 04:44.430]  But if you scroll down a little bit, I'll tell you when to stop.
[04:44.430 --> 04:46.090]  There are two paragraphs that I want to read.
[04:46.630 --> 04:47.370]  Just keep going.
[04:49.550 --> 04:50.050]  It's okay.
[04:50.150 --> 04:50.490]  Keep going.
[04:51.930 --> 04:52.590]  More, more, more.
[04:57.820 --> 04:58.520]  Oh, I'm sorry.
[04:58.740 --> 05:01.180]  Do... It's actually the paragraph that's at the top.
[05:01.320 --> 05:03.680]  And let's go that in the previous paragraph.
[05:08.970 --> 05:09.890]  Let's just read this.
[05:10.350 --> 05:12.190]  I'll read it to you in case...
[05:12.930 --> 05:13.830]  Well, everyone can read.
[05:13.930 --> 05:16.210]  I'll read it to you just in case you can't see it.
[05:16.830 --> 05:17.870]  This is our world now.
[05:18.010 --> 05:19.530]  The world of the electron and the switch.
[05:19.530 --> 05:20.530]  The beauty of the bod.
[05:20.750 --> 05:29.570]  We make uses of a service already existing without paying for what could be dirt cheap if it wasn't run by profiteering gluttons, and you call us criminals.
[05:29.890 --> 05:31.890]  We explore, and you call us criminals.
[05:32.130 --> 05:34.150]  We seek after knowledge, and you call us criminals.
[05:34.390 --> 05:39.850]  We exist without skin color, without nationality, without religious bias, and you call us criminals.
[05:40.190 --> 05:41.570]  You build atomic bombs.
[05:41.630 --> 05:42.450]  You wage wars.
[05:42.870 --> 05:47.130]  You murder, cheat, and lie to us, and try to make us believe it's for our own good,
[05:51.110 --> 05:53.350]  Yes, I am a criminal.
[05:53.670 --> 05:54.990]  My crime is out of curiosity.
[05:55.630 --> 06:00.330]  My crime is out of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like.
[06:00.750 --> 06:04.450]  My crime is out of outsmarting you, something that you will never forgive me for.
[06:04.850 --> 06:05.790]  Does this sound familiar?
[06:06.490 --> 06:06.810]  Sure.
[06:06.990 --> 06:15.470]  If you read the first part, this is essentially a kind of an angry statement that says, hey, you know, I'm kind of doing my thing.
[06:16.330 --> 06:17.110]  I'm curious.
[06:17.130 --> 06:18.390]  I have some skills.
[06:18.750 --> 06:20.610]  I'm trying to develop those skills.
[06:21.090 --> 06:23.870]  And I'm getting in all kinds of trouble for it.
[06:24.050 --> 06:25.030]  1986, right?
[06:25.150 --> 06:26.570]  This is a couple of years ago.
[06:29.520 --> 06:31.540]  There are a couple of really good points in here, though.
[06:31.720 --> 06:41.620]  And in fact, I have in the next, or in the future slide, I have a couple of these points that come back to us.
[06:41.620 --> 06:42.520]  Because what is he saying?
[06:42.640 --> 06:46.240]  He's saying he doesn't think much of racial separation.
[06:46.540 --> 06:49.300]  He doesn't think much of national identities.
[06:49.500 --> 06:54.040]  He doesn't think much of corporatism and corporate greed.
[06:54.980 --> 06:55.380]  Okay?
[06:55.700 --> 06:59.560]  And he's trying to get around all these things and trying to, trying to come up with his own way.
[07:00.060 --> 07:16.960]  And this is the type of thing that I think maybe, and this of course does it already, but I think maybe we would like to put into a code to say here is, or here are some of the things that we, if not all believe, at least can agree are some of the important goals of being a hacker.
[07:16.960 --> 07:19.500]  And let's, if we can, let's go ahead to the next one, please.
[07:23.940 --> 07:28.020]  I'm not going to read this whole thing either, although probably a lot of you have never read it.
[07:28.260 --> 07:36.360]  Normally, we think of the Hippocratic Oath as the thing that doctors sort of hold up and say, I swear, to do no harm, right?
[07:36.420 --> 07:40.900]  When they get their, their MD degree or their license or something like that.
[07:41.840 --> 07:49.260]  The actual Oath of Hippocrates is quite a bit longer and more involved and includes a bunch of stuff that, you know, normally...
[07:49.680 --> 07:52.760]  wouldn't apply in modern times or would certainly be questionable.
[07:53.180 --> 07:56.720]  And we sort of had this shortened version, which is, first, do no harm.
[07:56.900 --> 07:59.020]  That's what we usually think of as the Hippocratic Oath.
[07:59.160 --> 08:03.240]  In fact, I did a little bit of research on this and it turns out that at med schools, it's actually really different.
[08:03.380 --> 08:06.100]  They have sort of different processes that MDs go for.
[08:07.140 --> 08:08.160]  But check this out.
[08:08.300 --> 08:12.240]  If we scroll just a little bit so I can, I can touch upon what's in this paragraph.
[08:14.140 --> 08:27.420]  Basically, what the Hippocratic Oath spends most of its time, probably about half of its time, talking about is the various ways in which physicians act for the good more than for the self.
[08:28.420 --> 08:32.860]  And this, to me, is one of the key things we keep hearing about with the hackers.
[08:32.980 --> 08:37.940]  One of the comments I heard yesterday was defacing a webpage.
[08:37.940 --> 08:40.700]  Is that activism or hacktivism?
[08:41.000 --> 08:49.080]  Well, if you choose the page to deface for a reason and then deface it, then possibly, yeah, it sounds like it is.
[08:49.260 --> 08:54.680]  If you simply deface whatever page you could deface because that was the place you could break into, well, you know, maybe not.
[08:55.460 --> 08:55.900]  Okay?
[08:56.220 --> 09:02.420]  And this is the type of intent that I think the hacker code might want to address.
[09:02.420 --> 09:03.660]  There's a bunch of stuff in here.
[09:03.780 --> 09:08.640]  They talk about giving abortificance to women.
[09:08.820 --> 09:12.160]  They talk about a pessary to produce an abortion.
[09:12.720 --> 09:14.880]  And I don't know how many people have even had a pessary.
[09:14.960 --> 09:15.520]  I'm not sure.
[09:15.640 --> 09:17.640]  I think I saw one in the hotel restaurant.
[09:17.860 --> 09:22.040]  But, you know, this is a little bit archaic.
[09:22.200 --> 09:35.040]  But the idea that I really wanted to emphasize in here, and then we'll go on to one other example, is he spends a lot of time talking about how doctors, which is who this is for, physicians, mediciners, teach.
[09:35.560 --> 09:41.480]  And that, I think, is really a big piece of something we've heard a lot about with the hackers.
[09:43.020 --> 09:52.040]  Hackers tend to be individuals on the one hand, and yet we tend to get a lot of our knowledge about hacking from other hackers.
[09:52.040 --> 09:53.380]  There's this community.
[09:53.840 --> 10:05.340]  So, yeah, you know, ultimately we're all going to go home and we'll be sitting alone again, you know, in front of the computer late at night or early in the morning or whatever it is, not being incredibly social perhaps, but what are we doing?
[10:05.500 --> 10:10.780]  We're sharing by email, chat groups, stuff like that.
[10:12.100 --> 10:16.260]  So this idea of passing on knowledge is something that I think is really important.
[10:16.260 --> 10:22.060]  And it has, as you see, this is the point here, a long history with the Hippocratic Oath.
[10:22.340 --> 10:25.120]  Let's go ahead and take a look at the laws of robotics for a second.
[10:25.340 --> 10:27.080]  And these are a little bit arbitrary.
[10:27.280 --> 10:28.540]  On to the next slide, please.
[10:28.920 --> 10:36.940]  These are a little bit arbitrary that I chose these particular examples, but I thought they were well-known and kind of fun, and each had a couple of points that I wanted to grab onto.
[10:39.120 --> 10:40.120]  Hackers are not robots.
[10:40.300 --> 10:41.560]  I'm not trying to make this argument.
[10:41.560 --> 10:43.220]  But take a look at the zeroth law.
[10:43.520 --> 10:49.320]  A lot of people heard about the laws of robotics, and they thought there were three laws of robotics that Asimov came up with.
[10:49.500 --> 10:50.680]  And originally there were.
[10:51.100 --> 10:52.900]  And there was a story.
[10:53.460 --> 11:07.480]  I think they might have had a couple of versions of this, in fact, but Robots and Empire, where two of Asimov's robot characters were talking with each other over a period of some, I don't recall, hundreds or thousands of years.
[11:09.000 --> 11:13.140]  And they came up on their own with the zeroth law of robotics.
[11:14.780 --> 11:20.220]  A robot might not injure humanity or, through an action, allow humanity to come to harm.
[11:21.740 --> 11:32.140]  This is, I think, sometimes pretty close to what hackers use as a measuring stick of what their purpose is.
[11:32.140 --> 11:40.440]  You know, that, maybe not thinking about the benefit of humanity, I mean, how many hacks really are benefiting humanity immediately and directly.
[11:43.380 --> 11:50.960]  But the idea that, for example, well, anti-corporate behavior, maybe illegal anti-corporate behavior, could be in the good of humanity.
[11:51.400 --> 11:52.300]  We've heard that, right?
[11:52.500 --> 11:56.780]  The idea that, well, I don't know, email viruses are a problem.
[11:56.780 --> 12:00.600]  And we can help humanity by doing something about email viruses.
[12:00.780 --> 12:09.020]  Maybe releasing a virus in the long run, non-malicious virus, is a way of achieving that goal of being good for humanity.
[12:10.300 --> 12:18.460]  So that was what I wanted to focus on there, was this zeroth law, which emerged really after a couple of decades of the Robots books from Asimov.
[12:18.460 --> 12:25.400]  And after that, I'm sure they apply all that directly, but the first law, certainly, that you're not injuring human beings.
[12:25.480 --> 12:42.800]  That's another test that we seem to have as hackers, is that, well, what we're doing might be mischief, might be an inconvenience, might cost someone time or money, and that's certainly where some people might draw the line between sort of the white hat and the black hat.
[12:42.800 --> 12:52.540]  But there's a clear line of actual bodily harm or injury to other people.
[12:54.140 --> 13:07.760]  And that's something that I think most hackers would agree with, is very much, if there is a line between white hat and black hat, or good hacks and bad hacks, or whatever it is, that the idea of hurting people really comes in there.
[13:07.760 --> 13:09.280]  So let's go to the next slide.
[13:09.500 --> 13:19.300]  And what I did, as I mentioned, what I originally wanted to do was sit here and type on my laptop, and get points from the audience.
[13:19.640 --> 13:23.340]  And because I wasn't going to be able to type, I sort of dreamed up a few.
[13:23.580 --> 13:31.860]  And I'm not sure how much I like them, and what I did was I numbered them, instead of having a bulleted list or something like that, in order that we can provide a little feedback.
[13:33.040 --> 13:35.060]  Oh, do you want to try to type comments?
[13:35.940 --> 13:37.160]  That would be fine if you'd like.
[13:40.900 --> 13:43.860]  Let's maybe just work through the couple of points that I have.
[13:44.340 --> 13:47.160]  And, you know, I did this on my own.
[13:47.280 --> 13:48.300]  This might be total bullshit.
[13:49.240 --> 13:51.060]  And maybe it's not going to work.
[13:51.200 --> 13:54.540]  That's actually a question I'd like people in the audience to help with.
[13:54.540 --> 13:55.700]  Is this worthwhile?
[13:56.060 --> 13:57.740]  Is this something we'd never possibly agree on?
[13:59.120 --> 14:04.940]  And, of course, it only makes sense if it's not just the people in this room that see this.
[14:05.160 --> 14:11.120]  You know, it only makes sense if we get this published in 2600, something like that, if we actually agree upon it.
[14:12.300 --> 14:13.100]  So, one issue.
[14:13.320 --> 14:14.620]  Does this make any sort of sense?
[14:14.760 --> 14:20.460]  Well, let's take a look at some of the points, and then maybe get a little feedback and things to add and change.
[14:21.420 --> 14:29.340]  I thought, in the true spirit of your Declaration of Independence and Constitution and stuff like that, you need a preamble, right?
[14:29.540 --> 14:32.180]  So, I put in as a preamble something about diversity.
[14:32.300 --> 14:34.320]  Hackers are diverse from all cultures and backgrounds.
[14:34.520 --> 14:36.880]  Every hacker is unique, yet we all share some characteristics.
[14:37.480 --> 14:44.320]  While not every hacker follows this code, what we're reading, many believe it is a fair description of our shared traditions, goals, and values.
[14:45.360 --> 14:53.700]  I don't know, it doesn't really say too much, but the idea of recognizing diversity and common characteristics is something that I think will come up again.
[14:54.080 --> 14:59.840]  Let's scroll down a little bit, and we'll just sort of breeze through these, and then go into a little more interactive mode.
[15:00.720 --> 15:02.680]  Hackers share and are willing to teach their knowledge.
[15:02.680 --> 15:02.720]  Thank you very much.
[15:03.160 --> 15:11.620]  So, taking a cue from Hippocrates, teaching and sharing seems to be an important role.
[15:11.820 --> 15:15.480]  And we know that there's issues there, right?
[15:15.580 --> 15:20.460]  We know that there's a lot of problems with, you know, being on a mailing list or being in a chat room.
[15:20.580 --> 15:30.520]  And someone comes along and says, hey, can you please help me to, you know, make viruses, or how do you make a bomb, or how do you seal phone service, get free phone service, or something like that.
[15:30.520 --> 15:35.140]  And people that do that don't tend to get a whole lot of answers, right?
[15:35.300 --> 15:36.000]  So we know that.
[15:36.380 --> 15:49.680]  And yet, at the same time, we know that those of us that have developed some sort of skills over the years have really spent a lot of time interacting with other hackers to tune those skills and to share those skills and to share what we've discovered.
[15:51.100 --> 15:52.240]  Okay, hackers are skilled.
[15:52.740 --> 15:55.100]  Many are self-taught by interacting with other hackers.
[15:55.300 --> 15:57.140]  Hackers seek knowledge is number three.
[15:57.140 --> 16:01.440]  This knowledge may come from unauthorized or unusual sources and is often hidden.
[16:01.900 --> 16:07.200]  As an information scientist, by the way, I don't think too much of the idea that information must be free.
[16:07.740 --> 16:10.180]  And it's not because I don't think it must be free.
[16:10.280 --> 16:11.860]  In fact, the free part I agree with.
[16:12.080 --> 16:15.880]  But the information part, I believe information is something that you make.
[16:16.000 --> 16:20.220]  If someone tells you what you know, there's not a lot of information there, right?
[16:20.220 --> 16:27.420]  So the information value is really in its uniqueness or in its ability to contribute to knowledge.
[16:27.640 --> 16:30.520]  In that sense, I think information does want to be free.
[16:30.640 --> 16:32.640]  But I don't know about anthropomorphizing too much.
[16:34.100 --> 16:35.080]  Hackers are tinkerers.
[16:35.180 --> 16:37.920]  They like to understand how things work and want to make their own improvements and modifications.
[16:38.820 --> 16:44.340]  Five is hackers often disagree with authority, including parents, employers, social customs and laws, to name a few.
[16:44.820 --> 16:47.280]  They often seek to get around authority they disagree with.
[16:47.640 --> 16:49.120]  Hackers disagree with each other.
[16:49.120 --> 16:50.480]  I think that's important to note.
[16:51.280 --> 16:53.800]  Different hackers have different values and come from all backgrounds.
[16:54.000 --> 16:57.480]  This means that what one hacker is opposed to might be embraced by another.
[16:57.700 --> 16:59.260]  Let's scroll down to the end, please.
[17:00.800 --> 17:01.780]  Or almost the end.
[17:02.500 --> 17:13.080]  Hackers are persistent and are willing to devote hours, days and years, sometimes decades, for those of you who are in the old timers panel this morning, to pursuing their individual passions.
[17:13.420 --> 17:17.060]  This code does not prescribe how hackers act.
[17:17.060 --> 17:20.660]  Instead, it is to help us to recognize our own diversity and identify.
[17:21.240 --> 17:21.320]  Hmm.
[17:21.620 --> 17:22.520]  And identity, how about.
[17:23.080 --> 17:26.340]  Every hacker must make his or her own decisions about what is right or wrong.
[17:26.520 --> 17:30.280]  And some might do things they believe are illegal, amoral or antisocial.
[17:30.420 --> 17:36.040]  In other words, you might do something you believe is illegal or amoral as maybe part of that zeroth law of robotics.
[17:36.780 --> 17:40.000]  Hackers' motivations are their own and there is no reason for all hackers to agree.
[17:40.000 --> 17:43.080]  I think we need to recognize that or we probably already do at this conference.
[17:43.480 --> 17:48.120]  Hackers have a shared identity, identify again, however, and many shared interests.
[17:48.320 --> 17:53.720]  And by reading this code, hackers can recognize themselves in each other and understand better the group that they are a part of.
[17:54.140 --> 18:00.240]  And really, that's actually almost the purpose of having the talk here is to say, well, who are we and how do we identify ourselves?
[18:00.240 --> 18:10.400]  And what are some of our shared, not necessarily things we all agree on, but shared things that we can say with some accuracy about us?
[18:11.120 --> 18:25.680]  And I think what I'd like to do, having worked through these points, is solicit some feedback and input from the audience on, as I said, A, is this possible, maybe desirable, and then B, what about some of these points?
[18:25.680 --> 18:36.600]  And let me just reiterate with A, part of what I said at the very beginning, which is, we get vilified, right?
[18:37.680 --> 18:42.700]  Hackers are portrayed as being terrorists or synonymous with terrorists, et cetera, and so forth.
[18:42.900 --> 18:43.880]  This is a problem.
[18:44.440 --> 18:51.880]  One of the things that I think might help, could possibly help, is if we can point at something and say, no, no, wait a minute.
[18:51.880 --> 18:53.560]  You're talking about someone else.
[18:53.700 --> 18:55.440]  Here's something about what a hacker is.
[18:55.660 --> 19:00.320]  And what you're talking about is, well, a criminal or a terrorist or whatever it is.
[19:00.480 --> 19:05.880]  And I think we're pretty good at making that distinguishing point in individual conversation.
[19:06.340 --> 19:12.100]  And, you know, you see it come up sometimes in the media, not too often, but certainly in mailing lists and stuff like that.
[19:12.240 --> 19:13.280]  But where's the document?
[19:13.460 --> 19:15.100]  You know, where's the thing that sort of explains this?
[19:15.100 --> 19:17.820]  And for what it's worth, I want to take a crack at that.
[19:18.300 --> 19:21.880]  So, please, as I said, with maybe point one and point two.
[19:22.440 --> 19:24.780]  And I'll try to re... maybe I'll just try to repeat your comment.
[19:25.700 --> 19:28.720]  I don't believe that this constitutes as a code.
[19:29.420 --> 19:33.920]  It seems like it rather describes how you believe how to prescribe an account.
[19:35.060 --> 19:40.860]  And it doesn't give any correction on how a hacker should have to be that.
[19:41.060 --> 19:44.260]  Yeah, it's not necessarily a code because it doesn't prescribe as much.
[19:44.260 --> 19:45.280]  It's more describing.
[19:45.960 --> 19:50.100]  So, I mean, I don't think any of this really...
[19:50.860 --> 19:53.420]  What would you want to put in a... oh, not an oath, right?
[19:53.540 --> 19:53.780]  A code.
[19:53.900 --> 19:56.040]  What would you want to put in that might be a little different, do you think?
[19:57.460 --> 20:01.340]  Well, like a lot of the first statements are...
[20:03.500 --> 20:06.480]  Are giving information...
[20:07.380 --> 20:08.840]  When do you stand up so people can hear you?
[20:09.400 --> 20:09.800]  Yeah, sorry.
[20:10.680 --> 20:11.800]  I can hear you, but...
[20:13.000 --> 20:14.200]  When do you just grab this, yeah.
[20:19.240 --> 20:28.400]  What I was saying was, I don't believe that this code actually constitutes a code because it's more describing how he feels hackers are acting.
[20:28.640 --> 20:31.480]  And doesn't give any direction on how hackers should act.
[20:31.960 --> 20:37.700]  A lot of the first couple statements, it's just an outline of what he believes is going on.
[20:39.860 --> 20:40.900]  And doesn't...
[20:44.360 --> 20:46.010]  I don't know how to say it.
[20:47.810 --> 20:48.620]  What was that?
[20:49.880 --> 20:50.400]  Exactly.
[20:51.070 --> 20:52.290]  How should they act?
[20:52.510 --> 20:54.400]  This is how he believes they're acting now.
[20:55.120 --> 20:55.400]  Okay.
[20:55.850 --> 20:57.210]  Well, what about the utility though?
[20:57.330 --> 20:58.710]  I mean, do you want to see something a little different?
[21:03.600 --> 21:04.270]  Oh, thank you.
[21:04.350 --> 21:04.620]  Wireless.
[21:05.030 --> 21:05.470]  Thank you very much.
[21:05.570 --> 21:06.210]  Pass us around.
[21:08.290 --> 21:09.700]  Actually, I think there's a question right there.
[21:09.900 --> 21:10.050]  A comment.
[21:12.710 --> 21:12.990]  Oh.
[21:19.490 --> 21:20.230]  Is that up?
[21:20.880 --> 21:21.590]  It's not up.
[21:24.030 --> 21:24.900]  We speak there.
[21:25.120 --> 21:33.730]  I think the motivation you're going for is good, but there's a lot.
[21:34.390 --> 21:45.690]  To come up with a code, you have to prescribe on how you feel they should act or perform to be ethical and this just needs a lot of work.
[21:46.610 --> 21:46.970]  Okay.
[21:47.570 --> 21:48.750]  I'll buy that this needs a lot of work.
[21:48.870 --> 21:52.410]  You'd be amazed at what courage it takes to do something like this at a hacker convention, by the way.
[21:52.590 --> 21:53.350]  You'd be impressed.
[21:53.610 --> 21:54.050]  I'd give you credit.
[21:54.410 --> 21:54.870]  You'd be astounded.
[21:55.210 --> 21:55.450]  I'd give you credit.
[21:55.690 --> 21:57.350]  There's another comment right over here.
[21:57.650 --> 21:58.250]  Someone have their hand up?
[21:59.070 --> 22:00.130]  Pass the mic back.
[22:01.030 --> 22:01.170]  No?
[22:02.150 --> 22:02.310]  No.
[22:02.550 --> 22:02.770]  What are you?
[22:02.890 --> 22:04.710]  Oh, someone else must have something to say.
[22:04.970 --> 22:05.330]  Yes.
[22:05.610 --> 22:05.770]  Right here.
[22:05.950 --> 22:06.410]  Thank you.
[22:06.570 --> 22:07.650]  Why is the label so important?
[22:07.810 --> 22:09.450]  It seems like many people are trying to speak on the label.
[22:09.870 --> 22:12.150]  If you give them these guidelines, you're giving them a label back.
[22:14.390 --> 22:15.810]  Why is the label so important?
[22:15.930 --> 22:19.910]  It seems like many people are trying to escape a label and now you're trying to inflict them with yet another one.
[22:21.190 --> 22:21.930]  I like that.
[22:22.690 --> 22:24.010]  It's not necessarily important.
[22:24.170 --> 22:28.650]  And in fact, I think some people do in the audience.
[22:28.810 --> 22:33.190]  I interact with the media every once in a while as one of these experts or whatever.
[22:36.430 --> 22:39.950]  And the problem is they want labels.
[22:40.110 --> 22:40.770]  We use labels.
[22:41.130 --> 22:41.210]  Right?
[22:41.590 --> 22:48.690]  And so we can escape the label except we can only escape it among ourselves.
[22:49.610 --> 22:51.210]  You said hackers are vilified.
[22:51.450 --> 22:53.730]  Well, by giving them a label, it's easier to vilify them.
[22:54.490 --> 22:59.010]  By giving them a label as a hacker, it's easier for the media to vilify these people.
[22:59.550 --> 23:00.670]  Yeah, I agree.
[23:01.010 --> 23:05.610]  If you're blue and all blues do this, then if one blue is guilty, you're guilty by association.
[23:05.910 --> 23:06.930]  That's what this leads to.
[23:09.590 --> 23:12.370]  It seems like what hackers do is that they're individuals.
[23:12.370 --> 23:15.050]  They will find the cause that means something to them.
[23:15.270 --> 23:17.130]  By grouping together, you will have the disagreements.
[23:17.250 --> 23:24.410]  But I don't think you can have one common goal or guidelines set or rules that will guide how people behave or what they should do.
[23:26.130 --> 23:26.770]  Well, thank you.
[23:30.490 --> 23:32.650]  Let me mention one thing that...
[23:34.490 --> 23:35.290]  Where did it go?
[23:35.290 --> 23:37.290]  I don't know if it arrived in the slides.
[23:37.950 --> 23:41.790]  That is, we have a lot of power, I think.
[23:41.990 --> 23:44.910]  And I think we might have more power as a group than individually.
[23:45.590 --> 23:48.270]  And so I think that's my belief that really motivated this.
[23:48.370 --> 23:56.330]  To say, well, if we can maybe get ourselves thinking a little bit as a group, then we can move forward perhaps more than as individuals.
[23:56.330 --> 23:59.790]  And I'm thinking, my personal thing is all this hacktivism going on.
[23:59.890 --> 24:05.570]  Thinking, well, you know, what would be different if we could really get organized somehow and take down the DNC?
[24:05.730 --> 24:07.130]  You know, what Joe was talking about.
[24:07.450 --> 24:10.710]  That's what the government is afraid of, is a group that they can label and identify.
[24:11.070 --> 24:12.550]  You can't stop individuals.
[24:12.710 --> 24:13.590]  It's too large.
[24:13.710 --> 24:16.570]  For instance, the rules of robotics are unenforceable.
[24:17.310 --> 24:20.030]  They mean nothing to robots and to humans.
[24:20.310 --> 24:28.550]  Yeah, the only way they're enforceable, there's something that's called the progenation clause or something that basically says all the new robots also have to agree.
[24:28.910 --> 24:30.010]  You can't do that with people, right?
[24:32.590 --> 24:34.150]  Any other questions or comments?
[24:36.050 --> 24:36.990]  Well, thanks for coming.
[24:37.230 --> 24:41.910]  And I'll put this up on the webpage, as I mentioned, and we can continue to work on it a little bit.
[24:42.050 --> 24:48.270]  And maybe just take a crack, throw it out there for public consumption or destruction as indicated.
[24:49.090 --> 24:52.610]  All right, we'll get on with the next panel in the next couple of minutes here.
[24:52.690 --> 24:53.230]  Thank you very much.