[00:37.040 --> 00:40.260]  I wish I was back in high school so I could help fight these evils.
[00:40.300 --> 00:42.220]  It's terrible, the ignorance of these people.
[00:42.460 --> 00:43.920]  But that's what you're going to learn about right now.
[00:44.040 --> 00:46.560]  We've got a whole bunch of excellent experts in the subject.
[00:47.280 --> 00:48.680]  Let me introduce our ringleader.
[00:49.120 --> 00:49.960]  It's Greg Newby.
[00:50.200 --> 00:56.120]  He is an assistant professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, their School of Information and Library Science.
[00:56.480 --> 00:58.780]  Please give a big hand for Greg Newby and our panelists.
[01:04.560 --> 01:06.120]  Anybody ever download Linux?
[01:07.860 --> 01:12.020]  If you did, you probably download it from Metalab, which is right next door to my office.
[01:12.260 --> 01:13.480]  You've never heard of where I come from.
[01:18.000 --> 01:22.900]  You know what this session is about probably already.
[01:23.040 --> 01:24.960]  These are our high school horror stories.
[01:25.220 --> 01:26.940]  And we do have some distinguished panelists.
[01:27.100 --> 01:31.120]  What we'll do first, maybe we'll start over here, and just introduce yourself very briefly.
[01:31.740 --> 01:37.220]  And what we'll do is let the panelists maybe open up with a couple of individual stories.
[01:37.460 --> 01:38.660]  And we do have the wireless.
[01:38.840 --> 01:40.040]  We're setting up the mic down front.
[01:40.180 --> 01:44.320]  And what we'd like to do, of course, is hear from the audience some of what you have to say.
[01:44.500 --> 01:50.380]  And, of course, what we'd like to do, or one of my goals for this session, is to share.
[01:50.380 --> 01:51.680]  Yes, we're going to do that.
[01:51.840 --> 02:04.960]  But we'd also like to maybe learn something about how we can avoid such horror stories, about how we can feel better with the trouble that we sometimes find ourselves in, sometimes our fault, sometimes not.
[02:05.380 --> 02:06.080]  So that's what we'll do.
[02:06.160 --> 02:07.480]  Maybe why don't we just go ahead and start.
[02:09.880 --> 02:10.700]  What's that going on?
[02:23.870 --> 02:26.610]  Basically, it's a little different than the public school system.
[02:27.350 --> 02:32.570]  They're given a lot more leniency with the things they can get away with, restricting us.
[02:33.190 --> 02:35.650]  And that's basically what I want to talk about today.
[02:38.570 --> 02:45.990]  Okay, I'm in graphics, and I'm going to be a junior next year, and I go to a public school.
[02:53.230 --> 02:58.030]  in New Jersey.
[02:59.350 --> 03:08.750]  I'm going to be a junior next year, and there are some real, I don't want to say the word, but real idiots, let's look at that, in the school.
[03:09.710 --> 03:11.830]  They really have no idea what they're doing, and they think they do.
[03:13.810 --> 03:20.830]  I'm Pete, and basically, I was stupid, and I got fired.
[03:21.390 --> 03:23.390]  This was in college, actually, not in high school.
[03:29.500 --> 03:30.140]  I'm Pete.
[03:33.360 --> 03:38.280]  Basically, I got a lot of shit in high school, but not anything official.
[03:38.920 --> 03:46.160]  And what I'm going to talk about, as far as possible, is my experiences in college, and how it sucks.
[03:46.960 --> 03:51.240]  I'm doing anything fun on any sort of university networks.
[03:53.280 --> 03:54.080]  And that's it.
[03:55.020 --> 03:58.140]  Why don't you go ahead and, you can just go ahead and start, and maybe I'll tell you a story.
[03:58.300 --> 04:01.760]  And what I want to do, as I said, is get to the audience participation part as well.
[04:02.280 --> 04:03.140]  But, let's go ahead.
[04:03.620 --> 04:10.140]  All right, well, starting out in high school, as I'm sure many of you know, the key to having fun is having the clueless person on in the class.
[04:10.140 --> 04:12.300]  And that was, luckily, the case with me.
[04:13.740 --> 04:15.560]  It was me and a couple of my friends.
[04:15.580 --> 04:18.760]  We own the network, and they thanked us for it because, basically, they didn't have to keep it up.
[04:20.460 --> 04:21.480]  And that went well.
[04:21.700 --> 04:25.360]  I was expecting that sort of understanding in college, and that just didn't happen.
[04:27.960 --> 04:36.770]  Basically, I'm a suspicion of a, well-founded suspicion, rather, of a break-in at a motor computer.
[04:38.030 --> 04:39.120]  They fired me.
[04:39.300 --> 04:42.680]  I had a network administrator job doing nothing.
[04:43.220 --> 04:43.680]  I'm not doing anything.
[04:43.940 --> 04:44.380]  I'm just really cool.
[04:44.800 --> 04:45.480]  I think it's a lot better.
[04:46.150 --> 04:53.270]  So, that sort of sucked to get fired from that, but it's a valuable lesson that, basically, just be smart.
[04:55.500 --> 05:01.530]  It's not an interesting story or a fun story at all, but it's a community.
[05:01.800 --> 05:05.480]  Did you get disciplinary at college, other than being fired?
[05:07.050 --> 05:10.680]  No official disciplinary action about being fired was enough for me.
[05:12.240 --> 05:14.380]  Like I said, it was one of the better jobs I've ever had.
[05:15.980 --> 05:18.120]  Because it was a state college, it was a state job.
[05:18.520 --> 05:20.600]  And that's pretty cool in itself.
[05:20.600 --> 05:22.980]  You don't have to do anything to give us, and then they give you a lot of information.
[05:23.900 --> 05:24.120]  Yeah.
[05:25.960 --> 05:26.320]  Okay.
[05:26.320 --> 05:26.640]  Thanks.
[05:26.760 --> 05:27.530]  Why don't we...
[05:28.120 --> 05:33.400]  Actually, if people have immediate questions, please feel free to jump up and yell them out, or I'll bring you the wireless.
[05:33.660 --> 05:34.980]  But otherwise, I'll be here.
[05:35.720 --> 05:36.200]  All right.
[05:36.380 --> 05:40.420]  As I said, I go to public school in northwest New Jersey, so not too far from here.
[05:40.550 --> 05:45.380]  Probably about 65 miles out from the city, right on I-80.
[05:47.100 --> 05:50.740]  There is a gentleman at the school, his name is Gil Muscatella.
[05:51.280 --> 05:54.020]  Very nice gentleman, but he has absolutely no idea what he's doing.
[05:56.140 --> 06:06.540]  Basically, he walks around the school, I guess you could say pulling over kids who think, have done things that he doesn't like.
[06:06.540 --> 06:16.380]  And just one time, I was in the computer lab, Telnetting I have a server, my own Linux server on a T1 in town nearby.
[06:16.860 --> 06:18.480]  And it was Telnetting.
[06:18.790 --> 06:22.120]  And he presumed that I was doing something malicious.
[06:23.840 --> 06:25.940]  So, before I know it, in his office.
[06:26.860 --> 06:32.540]  And, of course, the most amusing part of this gentleman's office is the title on his door.
[06:34.000 --> 06:40.320]  He happens to be the vice principal, but on the door it says, high-tech expert.
[06:42.300 --> 06:45.700]  Which doesn't say too much about him in the first place.
[06:45.900 --> 06:49.140]  I mean, I don't know why you would put that on your door if you were the vice principal.
[06:49.140 --> 06:56.100]  But, so I go into his office and he says to me, what exactly were you doing?
[06:56.280 --> 06:58.340]  I said, well, I was doing some various things.
[06:58.550 --> 07:00.840]  You know, playing with the shoutcast server, doing all kinds of stuff.
[07:01.040 --> 07:03.550]  So, as you guys would know, that's really nothing.
[07:04.480 --> 07:05.840]  You know, nothing big.
[07:06.200 --> 07:07.280]  You know, it's really not a big deal.
[07:07.290 --> 07:08.540]  I wasn't even pinging anybody.
[07:08.860 --> 07:09.900]  I wasn't doing anything stupid.
[07:11.020 --> 07:12.130]  So, of course...
[07:12.780 --> 07:13.660]  I'm sorry, what did you say?
[07:13.790 --> 07:14.880]  I'm not using exercise.
[07:24.560 --> 07:32.760]  So, Jamie, who happens to be the network administrator, comes in and says, what's the problem?
[07:32.880 --> 07:34.280]  I mean, I know this kid fairly well.
[07:34.400 --> 07:35.440]  I know Jamie fairly well.
[07:35.440 --> 07:36.320]  He's a very good guy.
[07:37.760 --> 07:45.260]  And he basically made a fool out of Gil Muscatalo and said to him that, hey, this kid did absolutely nothing wrong.
[07:45.260 --> 07:46.860]  Why do you have him in your office?
[07:48.280 --> 07:49.140]  So, that's one.
[07:49.290 --> 07:50.920]  Can I quickly do another one?
[07:51.100 --> 07:51.240]  Yeah.
[07:52.170 --> 07:52.670]  Okay.
[07:53.220 --> 07:59.440]  One time, of course you guys all know about the DeCSS problem with the FPA and all that good stuff.
[08:00.680 --> 08:04.700]  Probably shouldn't talk too much about the case in depth since there's a court case pending.
[08:05.290 --> 08:05.400]  Correct?
[08:05.700 --> 08:08.420]  We're doing our own court case.
[08:08.620 --> 08:08.840]  Okay.
[08:09.160 --> 08:12.570]  I just did one thing.
[08:12.610 --> 08:13.270]  You can touch him.
[08:13.770 --> 08:14.230]  Okay.
[08:14.930 --> 08:17.410]  We're among friends, but we don't need to go and...
[08:17.410 --> 08:17.710]  Okay.
[08:18.130 --> 08:23.090]  But I think most people know about it and know that there was a massive flyer happening.
[08:23.910 --> 08:26.310]  People passing up flyers at malls and various things.
[08:26.310 --> 08:30.810]  They're a group of kids at school that basically a computer club.
[08:31.330 --> 08:33.530]  They call themselves the webmaster club.
[08:34.610 --> 08:36.130]  Very good group of people.
[08:37.010 --> 08:40.430]  And you know, basically we're just putting flyers after school.
[08:40.890 --> 08:41.550]  Not many.
[08:41.750 --> 08:43.750]  Just on various student bullet points.
[08:44.610 --> 08:48.170]  There were no administrators there at the end of the day.
[08:48.750 --> 08:53.750]  So the next day I get called into Gil Muscatalo's office, the high tech expert.
[08:54.610 --> 08:57.450]  And he basically says to me, was this you?
[08:57.730 --> 09:02.470]  Now what bothered me about it is maybe he...
[09:02.470 --> 09:11.310]  The point is that he called the whole club into his office and automatically presumed that it was a group of people who knew about computers that didn't.
[09:11.710 --> 09:13.330]  Which is really what bothered me.
[09:13.430 --> 09:15.510]  It wasn't the fact that I was in his office.
[09:15.690 --> 09:18.750]  It's that he presumed that it was us.
[09:18.750 --> 09:20.490]  You know, that it wasn't just some kid.
[09:20.870 --> 09:21.310]  It was just it.
[09:22.430 --> 09:23.930]  So, that's pretty much it.
[09:25.350 --> 09:32.550]  Personally, I think a lot of that kind of stuff happens where people just presume that you do malicious things if you know about computers.
[09:32.550 --> 09:35.970]  But was there anything besides him really talking with you?
[09:36.090 --> 09:37.630]  Or was there some sort of disciplinary after school?
[09:37.810 --> 09:38.310]  Anything like that?
[09:38.530 --> 09:38.890]  No.
[09:39.430 --> 09:42.970]  And the only reason was because I said to him what I just told you.
[09:43.370 --> 09:47.030]  The fact that the only reason to call us into your office, you have no evidence.
[09:47.510 --> 09:53.610]  And I basically questioned him nicely saying, you have absolutely no reason to have us in your office.
[09:53.830 --> 09:54.930]  It's just presumption.
[09:56.130 --> 09:58.770]  We just got a couple questions and we'll move on to the next story.
[10:00.330 --> 10:01.990]  I went to the same high school.
[10:02.330 --> 10:04.510]  And he runs this school like a Nazi.
[10:05.190 --> 10:07.990]  Like, he tries to let you get away with anything.
[10:08.210 --> 10:09.790]  But he can't catch you with anything.
[10:10.390 --> 10:10.490]  Right.
[10:10.610 --> 10:16.370]  And he always tries to make up stuff to make it sound worse than everything.
[10:16.450 --> 10:16.550]  Yeah.
[10:16.750 --> 10:18.630]  He has no idea what he's talking about.
[10:18.910 --> 10:19.110]  Right.
[10:19.910 --> 10:23.110]  So, I think it's like that in a lot of cases, unfortunately.
[10:25.450 --> 10:29.210]  I'm wondering why he would care at all that you guys are just putting up bulletin?
[10:29.690 --> 10:31.210]  That you're putting up flyers?
[10:31.470 --> 10:36.290]  I think mainly the MPAA trial has been on the news a little bit.
[10:36.730 --> 10:40.670]  Remembering it's a public school, you know, being released, all that kind of stuff.
[10:41.870 --> 10:49.190]  Having all that public, the whole hacker computer persona, I guess you could say, is very public right now.
[10:49.330 --> 10:50.790]  And a lot of people are in it.
[10:50.790 --> 10:54.290]  And because it's a public school, it's kind of a sensitive issue.
[10:54.810 --> 10:59.490]  You know, you don't want to even hint that kids are doing any of this stuff in school.
[10:59.990 --> 11:01.610]  So, that's why it's kind of touchy.
[11:01.750 --> 11:02.650]  That's my guess.
[11:02.890 --> 11:04.450]  Fear of a hacker planet outdoors.
[11:05.470 --> 11:05.930]  Right.
[11:06.090 --> 11:11.910]  And he's presuming, because it's such in the news, that everybody who knows about computers is a hacker too.
[11:13.870 --> 11:14.230]  Okay.
[11:14.330 --> 11:14.690]  Great.
[11:14.870 --> 11:15.090]  One point.
[11:15.210 --> 11:15.430]  Go ahead.
[11:17.750 --> 11:18.110]  Okay.
[11:18.970 --> 11:24.290]  Well, first thing you have to know about my school, the whole county is run out of the same T1.
[11:24.410 --> 11:25.910]  So, we all run into the same proxy.
[11:26.350 --> 11:28.870]  Which basically means you ping the proxy and crash it.
[11:29.230 --> 11:31.390]  I mean, you can ping it three times and it goes down.
[11:34.190 --> 11:37.990]  Well, you have to realize that on this day in school, the proxy was down.
[11:38.330 --> 11:39.430]  I was in the school I learned.
[11:39.650 --> 11:44.710]  I didn't know if the proxy was down or not because in my school, people tend to mess with Netscape preferences.
[11:45.590 --> 11:51.090]  So, I'm just basically going through the preferences, checking to make sure the proper proxy has been put in.
[11:51.090 --> 11:57.770]  And a student aide comes over and he starts accusing me of crashing the proxy.
[11:58.890 --> 12:05.570]  He's saying that we just got word that the proxy went down and they think it came from, you know, one of the schools.
[12:06.030 --> 12:07.290]  And I'm telling you what I'm saying.
[12:07.830 --> 12:11.570]  I opened up Netscape, went to the proxy server settings.
[12:13.170 --> 12:14.630]  How could I have crashed that way?
[12:15.450 --> 12:16.850]  You have to know something about Matt.
[12:17.590 --> 12:22.390]  He's one of those guys where, I guess he's like your vice principal.
[12:22.550 --> 12:23.170]  Thinks he knows a lot.
[12:23.410 --> 12:23.950]  He's a Gil Muscatello.
[12:24.610 --> 12:24.790]  Yeah.
[12:25.550 --> 12:27.050]  That'll probably be in a dictionary now.
[12:30.910 --> 12:34.790]  But, he'll go on for hours saying how he tried to get, you know, Linux installed.
[12:35.050 --> 12:36.730]  But, he couldn't get his factory two working right.
[12:37.030 --> 12:39.890]  And, he just, his terminology is totally mixed up.
[12:40.090 --> 12:41.410]  And so, you can just tell by listening to him.
[12:41.530 --> 12:42.450]  He doesn't know what he's talking about.
[12:43.530 --> 12:45.850]  So, he goes to the library.
[12:45.850 --> 12:46.910]  To the librarian.
[12:47.230 --> 12:52.250]  And, he tells her that he suspects me of crashing the proxy.
[12:53.130 --> 12:56.870]  So, we have, the librarians are pretty much another one of these people.
[12:57.150 --> 12:58.610]  So, I get sent down in the office.
[12:58.950 --> 13:02.290]  And, I'm in the vice principal's office for about 30 minutes.
[13:02.490 --> 13:04.110]  Trying to explain to this guy.
[13:04.410 --> 13:05.910]  Who is this really nasty co-owner.
[13:05.910 --> 13:09.650]  That, you can't crash.
[13:09.950 --> 13:13.270]  I mean, you can't crash the proxy server by going through Netscape preferences.
[13:13.950 --> 13:15.350]  And, he's gotta be like 80.
[13:15.750 --> 13:17.610]  So, I mean, I shouldn't have been trying.
[13:18.290 --> 13:22.550]  Luckily though, I have a, my data programming teacher.
[13:23.690 --> 13:25.090]  She's been in the scene a long time.
[13:25.270 --> 13:26.010]  I mean, she knows assembly.
[13:26.250 --> 13:28.710]  She's way back from when they actually had these punch cards.
[13:29.630 --> 13:31.510]  So, luckily, she was in the next office.
[13:31.670 --> 13:33.010]  And, she was working on the NET server.
[13:33.350 --> 13:34.490]  That keeps all the grades.
[13:35.930 --> 13:39.090]  And, she heard them talking to me.
[13:39.490 --> 13:42.830]  Pretty much just, pretty much usually the walls.
[13:43.070 --> 13:44.330]  It's a pretty bad school.
[13:46.250 --> 13:48.030]  But, she just heard them talking and she came over.
[13:48.570 --> 13:51.710]  And, I mean, she like asked me, what were you doing?
[13:51.990 --> 13:52.990]  I was in Netscape references.
[13:53.310 --> 13:54.430]  And, she goes, oh, okay.
[13:55.090 --> 13:56.490]  And so, she just talked to this guy.
[13:57.430 --> 13:59.370]  And, explained to him that I didn't do anything wrong.
[14:00.050 --> 14:04.190]  If it hadn't been for her though, I could have lost all the privileges.
[14:04.190 --> 14:08.290]  to all computer classes and computer use for the rest of my high school year.
[14:08.830 --> 14:13.190]  And, of course, this would have been on my public record that I was a malicious computer user.
[14:17.430 --> 14:21.610]  I mean, but, luckily, thanks to her, she talked it over to him.
[14:22.190 --> 14:23.690]  I didn't get charged with anything.
[14:23.890 --> 14:24.890]  And, I didn't get to spend anything.
[14:25.190 --> 14:26.050]  It's about getting any attention.
[14:26.930 --> 14:28.030]  But, actually, we're working on...
[14:28.030 --> 14:29.290]  I actually messed up time.
[14:30.510 --> 14:30.870]  Okay.
[14:31.930 --> 14:32.290]  This...
[14:32.290 --> 14:33.670]  I used to work in an ISP.
[14:33.670 --> 14:35.950]  called, uh...
[14:35.950 --> 14:36.570]  IXI.
[14:37.370 --> 14:37.890]  And...
[14:37.890 --> 14:39.430]  We had this policy.
[14:40.090 --> 14:42.930]  If the server is ours, we can take the password file.
[14:43.170 --> 14:45.630]  We can run it through, you know, Johnny River or whatever.
[14:45.930 --> 14:50.290]  And, we can see how fast the password can correct.
[14:52.490 --> 14:55.530]  Well, make sure the server is one of yours.
[14:56.430 --> 15:01.810]  Because, if it's not, the logs tend to show things that that owner doesn't like.
[15:02.470 --> 15:07.770]  And, basically, this also shows just the stupidity that we have, even in an internet search provider.
[15:08.270 --> 15:10.250]  The president of the company...
[15:10.250 --> 15:11.930]  I'm not going to mention his name.
[15:12.290 --> 15:12.370]  I'm not going to mention his name.
[15:12.510 --> 15:12.990]  That's...
[15:12.990 --> 15:14.590]  Well, that wouldn't be nice, but...
[15:14.590 --> 15:14.990]  I'm sorry.
[15:17.770 --> 15:19.430]  But, he doesn't know anything.
[15:20.070 --> 15:25.250]  He used to run an abortivore system out of his basement, which he didn't even run.
[15:25.510 --> 15:27.550]  He just let somebody use his phone line, basically.
[15:28.150 --> 15:31.410]  But, in our community, he's known as, like, this big computer user.
[15:31.410 --> 15:32.030]  But, he doesn't...
[15:32.030 --> 15:35.070]  And, it's only because he is president of IXI.
[15:37.150 --> 15:39.390]  So, basically, this...
[15:39.390 --> 15:43.150]  The guy that owned the server said, okay, I want this...
[15:43.150 --> 15:45.770]  He didn't know that I was an employee there.
[15:45.850 --> 15:48.770]  He thought I was just a user on the network, on the XP.
[15:49.250 --> 15:51.350]  He said, okay, I want this person's account deleted.
[15:51.770 --> 15:54.070]  He tried to hack my server and did a bad job of it.
[15:54.190 --> 15:55.290]  And, so, I went and gone.
[15:56.050 --> 16:00.750]  Well, you know, since I worked there, I decided, okay, well, this account's cancer.
[16:00.750 --> 16:01.590]  So, and he's fired.
[16:03.330 --> 16:03.730]  James...
[16:03.730 --> 16:05.870]  Okay, I have to name the names, but...
[16:05.870 --> 16:08.890]  But, James, which was my real boss...
[16:08.890 --> 16:09.650]  I had three bosses.
[16:10.250 --> 16:12.030]  Like, there's a system administrator boss.
[16:13.030 --> 16:15.670]  Then, there's Mike and there's Pat, the president.
[16:16.230 --> 16:20.430]  Basically, James and Mike try to save finance and try to keep my job.
[16:20.710 --> 16:23.690]  But, Pat being the president, he had all the word over it.
[16:23.990 --> 16:29.510]  So, when you get a job, especially at IXI, make sure everybody knows what they're doing.
[16:30.190 --> 16:30.590]  Because...
[16:31.410 --> 16:33.790]  And, also, just make sure we're ahead of time.
[16:34.150 --> 16:37.750]  That the server you're working on is yours and not somebody else's.
[16:40.210 --> 16:41.750]  Just, I have some experience there.
[16:41.810 --> 16:43.030]  So, I worked for an ISP for a while.
[16:43.910 --> 16:46.690]  Also, if you ever get a job in that field, make sure that...
[16:47.470 --> 16:52.130]  Especially if it's a small company, or even if it's a larger company, and especially if you're younger.
[16:52.130 --> 16:56.410]  Make sure that everybody knows what you do at the company.
[16:56.830 --> 17:02.110]  So that, if you're doing something, especially because you're young, people don't suspect things.
[17:02.310 --> 17:04.010]  You know, and don't try and get you in trouble.
[17:04.170 --> 17:06.430]  Make sure that people know what your role is.
[17:06.430 --> 17:06.450]  Yes.
[17:07.890 --> 17:09.470]  Because I got in some trouble with that.
[17:14.350 --> 17:14.750]  Okay.
[17:15.130 --> 17:21.390]  Basically, well, I've been going to my school since middle school, and I'm in there in high school now.
[17:21.630 --> 17:25.290]  And, back in middle school, we had a nice little Windows 95 network.
[17:25.590 --> 17:27.830]  You know, no restrictions pretty much at all.
[17:28.490 --> 17:29.710]  That's nice, of course.
[17:30.170 --> 17:30.650]  But...
[17:30.650 --> 17:31.270]  Okay.
[17:31.870 --> 17:34.870]  And, basically, this is a nice little network.
[17:35.110 --> 17:44.410]  And, they're moving on to high school, and eventually, and the lawyers come in and say, how are you letting all these people just using all these computers without any restrictions?
[17:45.090 --> 17:46.210]  And, they're...
[17:46.210 --> 17:47.610]  So, what happens...
[17:47.610 --> 17:50.290]  A couple of weeks before school, the letter gets sent home.
[17:50.690 --> 17:56.990]  And, if we're expected to use any other systems at all, now we have to sign an acceptable use policy.
[17:57.890 --> 17:58.690]  in AUP.
[17:59.670 --> 18:06.190]  Basically, you sign this paper that says, you're only going to use our computers in this way, and you can't do anything else.
[18:06.870 --> 18:09.990]  And, so, they send that home, and make a big deal of it.
[18:10.290 --> 18:11.930]  And, so, okay, sign it.
[18:12.830 --> 18:17.270]  And, going into school now, and now, supposedly, we have to watch a presentation on it.
[18:17.850 --> 18:24.610]  And, so, they make a nice little PowerPoint presentation saying, giving us all the points, and going along with that.
[18:24.610 --> 18:27.370]  So, we're forced to sit through this presentation.
[18:28.050 --> 18:34.010]  We basically don't understand why, because, of course, if you sign a piece of paper, you already say that you understand it.
[18:34.950 --> 18:36.950]  And, so, we're sitting through this presentation.
[18:37.610 --> 18:41.090]  And, one of the points that comes up is, no hacking allowed.
[18:41.750 --> 18:46.710]  And, so, we ask for clarification on it, because we didn't see anything about that in an acceptable use policy.
[18:48.150 --> 18:50.170]  And, so, we keep asking for clarification.
[18:50.790 --> 18:52.590]  And, they decide not to give any.
[18:52.710 --> 18:54.770]  They're just like, oh, you should know what hacking is.
[18:55.930 --> 18:57.430]  And, we're like, we're sorry.
[18:57.430 --> 18:58.850]  We don't understand the definition.
[18:59.250 --> 19:01.230]  Please elaborate on your idea of hacking.
[19:01.390 --> 19:03.890]  Because, obviously, lots of people have different ideas.
[19:05.030 --> 19:06.690]  And, we keep asking about that.
[19:06.850 --> 19:11.730]  And, eventually, they just decide to throw us out of the presentation, which we're supposedly required to sit through.
[19:13.050 --> 19:15.450]  And, that's pretty much where that led to.
[19:16.330 --> 19:22.790]  And, instead of their nice little Windows 95 network, they decide that Citrix Thin terminals would be a lot better.
[19:23.470 --> 19:29.690]  Well, when you're running them off of one server, only about five people can sign on it once before the thing crashes.
[19:30.970 --> 19:33.370]  So, that's pretty much what they did to their network.
[19:34.570 --> 19:38.070]  Once the lawyers got involved, they went down.
[19:38.070 --> 19:40.610]  You know, Windows 95, it's not the best thing.
[19:40.730 --> 19:42.330]  But, it's better than a bunch of thin terminals.
[19:42.790 --> 19:44.350]  And, that's what it turned into.
[19:49.250 --> 19:53.350]  If you don't mind, I have a comment about the acceptable use policies.
[19:54.230 --> 19:56.350]  What I was going to do is invite comments from the panel.
[19:57.150 --> 19:58.690]  In a public school.
[19:59.510 --> 20:07.470]  Especially in a public school that has, even though I said that the gentleman is sometimes a complete asshole.
[20:07.470 --> 20:09.330]  He didn't say that, because he really is.
[20:09.470 --> 20:11.370]  He goes after people that he shouldn't be.
[20:12.270 --> 20:14.090]  He gets the funding that is needed.
[20:14.690 --> 20:15.230]  I'll give him that.
[20:15.690 --> 20:18.870]  There are plenty of computers in the school, and there are plenty.
[20:19.150 --> 20:21.850]  There are not too many, and there are just enough.
[20:22.230 --> 20:23.830]  So, it's not like they're overspending.
[20:23.990 --> 20:24.950]  They're spending just enough.
[20:25.110 --> 20:25.610]  Which is good.
[20:30.010 --> 20:36.850]  And, the problem is, is that, with the acceptable use policy, it's not like you can say, well, I don't like this point.
[20:37.230 --> 20:40.450]  I'm not going to sign it, and I choose not to use computer in school.
[20:41.410 --> 20:49.330]  To even get through the high school, in my high school at least, you have to have that computer available to you.
[20:49.790 --> 20:52.510]  Especially in classes such as, geometry.
[20:53.370 --> 21:01.390]  They do labs, in the computer lab, that involve a, what they call a program called a geometry sketch pad.
[21:01.570 --> 21:05.290]  It involves, you know, manipulating the binds and angles and all kinds of stuff.
[21:05.710 --> 21:06.630]  That's beside the point.
[21:07.070 --> 21:09.250]  Bottom line is, if you don't do it, you fail the class.
[21:10.030 --> 21:13.890]  So, if you hadn't signed your acceptable use policy, you fail geometry.
[21:14.310 --> 21:16.750]  Because you need to use a computer to cast the course.
[21:17.630 --> 21:21.010]  So, you have no choice but to sign the agreement.
[21:22.130 --> 21:25.650]  And, at no time do they tell you that you're going to have to sign the agreement.
[21:25.950 --> 21:27.550]  You know, because you have to use the computer.
[21:29.590 --> 21:31.550]  Which, so there's kind of gray area there.
[21:31.750 --> 21:35.550]  And that, I know that kind of disturbed me when I had to sign it my freshman year.
[21:36.870 --> 21:46.570]  Another thing I wanted to comment on is, the AUP says that you should really go and report any, quote, vulnerabilities you find in their network to the IS department.
[21:47.350 --> 21:51.750]  Well, considering, you know, I explored around the network a little and found some.
[21:52.010 --> 21:54.050]  And I went and reported them, repeatedly.
[21:54.410 --> 21:56.530]  And they basically just ignore us.
[21:56.810 --> 22:02.230]  Well, they either ignore you or they say to you, why were you looking at that in the first place?
[22:02.230 --> 22:08.870]  You know, like, one time, to switch the printers in the school, there's a password required.
[22:09.190 --> 22:10.110]  It's a network network.
[22:10.570 --> 22:13.650]  And the password was password.
[22:15.110 --> 22:15.850]  Of course.
[22:16.250 --> 22:17.710]  Which is the default password.
[22:17.870 --> 22:23.450]  And I find this out and I go tell the IT department, they're like, why were you looking in there in the first place?
[22:23.450 --> 22:24.690]  And I'm like, try to.
[22:25.030 --> 22:27.110]  So, there's no use.
[22:27.250 --> 22:35.150]  And even though it says it in the acceptable use terms, to report problems you find, you get crucified when you find a problem.
[22:35.410 --> 22:38.990]  So, it's a win, you know, it's a lose-lose situation.
[22:39.330 --> 22:41.710]  No matter what you do, it's not going to help.
[22:41.710 --> 22:46.410]  So, what I'd like to invite is questions from the audience.
[22:46.590 --> 22:51.330]  And I think what we're going to do is set up the mic stand right in the middle.
[22:51.450 --> 22:56.030]  And maybe people that would like to tell their own stories, and feel like walking down here, can do that.
[22:56.210 --> 22:59.010]  Or bring me all the questions from the panel as well.
[22:59.110 --> 23:03.770]  I know we have some people who would like to share their own personal high school forest stories.
[23:04.710 --> 23:09.110]  So, if you feel brave enough to come down here, otherwise I can answer the mic.
[23:12.050 --> 23:14.310]  Well, Pam, I have to say that I feel for you.
[23:14.730 --> 23:18.950]  I graduated high school in 1995, so I kind of have an old school perspective, as it were.
[23:20.870 --> 23:25.550]  Speaking as a system administrator, we have to realize that our job is to be a boss, and to make your life difficult.
[23:26.750 --> 23:34.090]  Aside from that fact, though, the one suggestion I have to high school students, and you guys in general, is I think some of you found out is to find allies.
[23:34.490 --> 23:44.030]  The only way I got through high school, back from 91 to 95, back when computers and the internet was all way out there, was to find allies, and to find people that you could trust.
[23:44.190 --> 23:48.090]  If you find one person that will believe in you, that's all you need to survive.
[23:48.330 --> 23:49.750]  I did it by finding a yearbook.
[23:50.150 --> 23:57.350]  A yearbook allowed me to find people that would vouch for me in my time of need, to prove that I really knew what I was talking about.
[23:57.350 --> 24:03.870]  So, my tip to all those guys that go out there in high school is to find the allies, to find the people that you need to survive.
[24:04.230 --> 24:05.390]  That's the only way you're going to do it.
[24:05.550 --> 24:06.490]  You can't do it on your own.
[24:06.550 --> 24:07.190]  You have to make friends.
[24:08.250 --> 24:10.150]  Well, I agree with the making friends part.
[24:10.390 --> 24:15.430]  I completely agree with you, and you have to know who can help you out at certain times.
[24:15.430 --> 24:16.890]  I completely agree with you there.
[24:17.290 --> 24:32.210]  But do you think it's right for certain system administrators, administrators, you know, the administration in the school, and so forth, to presume that you do certain things because you're good working with computers?
[24:32.370 --> 24:38.670]  Such as, I don't know, my parents told me that when they liked Grateful Dead, when they were in high school.
[24:38.670 --> 24:44.390]  And the generalization, if you listened to Grateful Dead, you did certain things.
[24:44.570 --> 24:45.870]  And that was just presumption.
[24:46.410 --> 24:47.630]  And do you think that's right?
[24:48.030 --> 24:53.910]  Well, I mean, it's a matter of whether the presumption is right or wrong is really, as you'll learn, it doesn't matter.
[24:54.710 --> 24:58.850]  The whole point being, you have no rights until you're 18.
[24:59.390 --> 25:02.130]  As far as everybody else is concerned, you really don't have any rights.
[25:02.130 --> 25:05.970]  Whether that's wrong, it doesn't matter.
[25:06.250 --> 25:09.310]  You still have to fight for those rights, whatever they are.
[25:09.610 --> 25:15.910]  But realize that very few people are going to believe it, and that's why you need that one person of high esteem to vouch for you.
[25:16.930 --> 25:18.350]  And you can get through all that.
[25:18.470 --> 25:19.390]  Because it will be over.
[25:19.530 --> 25:24.070]  Believe me, once you get college, at least my college experience, which I'm just finishing up, is great.
[25:24.070 --> 25:26.450]  I mean, so just stick it out.
[25:26.850 --> 25:28.110]  It's only four years of high school.
[25:28.270 --> 25:28.870]  You can make it.
[25:29.050 --> 25:29.870]  You can make it.
[25:31.310 --> 25:31.930]  Thank you.
[25:32.390 --> 25:33.050]  Thank you.
[25:38.260 --> 25:39.820]  Same basic topic as he had.
[25:40.540 --> 25:42.240]  You guys are a little bit off.
[25:43.380 --> 25:46.060]  Has anyone ever thought about just following the rules?
[25:46.340 --> 25:47.540]  It's a stupid thing to say here.
[25:48.160 --> 25:53.880]  But in the school, there's a lot of guys in my school who think about computers and don't know shit.
[25:53.880 --> 25:58.060]  I know personally that I know a lot more than probably the system administrator who knows nothing.
[25:58.860 --> 26:03.220]  And the small problem is, they paid for a system, and there's a lot of people in school.
[26:03.780 --> 26:06.420]  Now, which people in school should be able to edit things?
[26:06.460 --> 26:07.900]  Which people should be able to monitor things?
[26:08.540 --> 26:10.520]  Just because you know, doesn't mean you should be able to edit.
[26:10.680 --> 26:13.440]  Doesn't mean you should be able to be consistent and administrative.
[26:14.060 --> 26:19.860]  Well, I was just going to say, at no time did I ever edit systems or anything.
[26:20.080 --> 26:21.960]  They were just making presumptions.
[26:21.960 --> 26:27.860]  At no time was I breaking into systems or even attempting to, which is what my problem was.
[26:27.960 --> 26:32.480]  If I was doing things and I was caught in the act, that's a completely different story.
[26:32.920 --> 26:41.200]  My problem with the administrators was the fact that there were presumptions made and where labor proved completely false.
[26:41.800 --> 26:48.080]  So if I were editing things and changing things that I wasn't supposed to be going into, I would agree with you.
[26:48.080 --> 26:49.720]  Just follow the rules.
[26:50.760 --> 26:53.020]  But they tell you to report problems.
[26:53.160 --> 26:54.600]  If you find a problem, report it.
[26:55.820 --> 26:59.760]  And there were problems that I didn't even have to investigate to find.
[27:00.660 --> 27:01.820]  You see what I'm saying?
[27:02.140 --> 27:08.520]  And I completely agree with you that when it comes to, especially public high schools, following the rules is the way to go.
[27:08.920 --> 27:16.740]  I mean, because having a computer in high school in this day and age can decide if you graduate or not.
[27:16.740 --> 27:20.500]  It can be the difference of passing the class and not passing the class.
[27:21.360 --> 27:22.620]  So, I agree with you.
[27:22.940 --> 27:24.980]  The printer is the only thing I'm talking about specifically.
[27:25.300 --> 27:26.860]  Did you mention something about the printer?
[27:28.520 --> 27:29.860]  You just want to change the printer?
[27:30.120 --> 27:34.120]  In NetWare, to change... there's printer routing on the NetWare.
[27:35.460 --> 27:39.380]  And there is a black and white printer and a color printer in the library.
[27:40.360 --> 27:45.520]  And I... it's a Windows 98 based network with NetWare on top of it, if you know what I mean.
[27:45.860 --> 27:47.040]  With a NetWare client.
[27:48.740 --> 27:52.740]  Which I think most... a lot of high schools have that type of system.
[27:53.260 --> 27:55.040]  And I just went to change the printer.
[27:55.220 --> 27:57.080]  I wanted to print a presentation in color.
[27:57.220 --> 28:01.240]  PowerPoint presentation I was going to hand it to the teacher because I was absent in color.
[28:01.240 --> 28:04.220]  And when I went to change the printer, it prompted me for a password.
[28:05.640 --> 28:11.640]  And just being the kind of person I am, I tried to pass the word password.
[28:11.860 --> 28:12.940]  And it happened to work.
[28:13.160 --> 28:20.620]  And I just pointed that out to the guy as, you know, I can't be the only person who tried that.
[28:20.620 --> 28:23.120]  You know, I don't know.
[28:23.720 --> 28:26.820]  It may have been wrong to me to try a password.
[28:27.040 --> 28:28.120]  It may have not have been.
[28:28.320 --> 28:37.280]  But my problem was, is that in the terms, it says, if you find any problems whatsoever, tell us.
[28:37.840 --> 28:45.240]  Because I think it's... the system administrator later said, we didn't see that.
[28:46.260 --> 28:48.920]  But the vice principal said, why the hell were you doing that?
[28:50.200 --> 28:55.160]  So, as I said, what the gentleman said before about the allies is completely true.
[28:56.160 --> 28:59.860]  Just, you have to know who the good people are.
[29:00.480 --> 29:01.400]  That all makes sense.
[29:01.680 --> 29:03.320]  I was misunderstood about something before.
[29:04.140 --> 29:05.340]  That was what I tried to thought.
[29:05.920 --> 29:06.740]  Sorry about that.
[29:08.080 --> 29:10.120]  Something, something, something, something, there's life.
[29:15.730 --> 29:18.830]  Out of the four of you, I completely forgot my name.
[29:19.110 --> 29:20.830]  I never signed one in high school.
[29:21.170 --> 29:21.810]  Was it something?
[29:21.810 --> 29:25.130]  Or they, they never said anything to me.
[29:25.590 --> 29:26.810]  I would, and I would think of that.
[29:26.930 --> 29:28.050]  They would say something to me.
[29:28.350 --> 29:34.790]  But in college, I would do a thing, like, it says, you get admitted.
[29:36.430 --> 29:40.650]  And there's a certain amount of terms and guidelines you have to go by.
[29:40.810 --> 29:44.390]  If you choose not to accept those, you don't have to go to school then.
[29:45.350 --> 29:46.770]  So, did either of you have an AP?
[29:47.170 --> 29:47.410]  Yeah.
[29:47.490 --> 29:48.490]  At my school, we have a set.
[29:48.710 --> 29:50.890]  In order to get classes, they do with computers.
[29:51.290 --> 29:51.530]  Yeah.
[29:51.590 --> 29:54.430]  So, it's basically sign AP or you can't even take the class.
[29:54.570 --> 29:54.690]  Yeah.
[29:54.690 --> 29:55.670]  You require class.
[29:58.710 --> 29:59.230]  Hi there.
[29:59.990 --> 30:08.450]  Um, the, the first person who came up and commented, um, sort of, preached the goods of, you know, sort of going through and sticking it out and so on and so forth.
[30:09.170 --> 30:10.750]  And, um, that's definitely a valid point.
[30:10.970 --> 30:14.070]  However, it's not the only way of going about and doing things.
[30:14.610 --> 30:19.410]  Um, his, his statement earlier that until you're 18 that you have no rights, it's 100% true.
[30:20.170 --> 30:22.910]  Um, it's true for every generation.
[30:23.150 --> 30:24.350]  That's, that's the way it works.
[30:24.890 --> 30:29.310]  Um, and then by the time people figure that out, well, they're about 17 and a half.
[30:29.650 --> 30:30.630]  They do their thing.
[30:30.810 --> 30:34.270]  Then they go off and be the, the next generation of people who sort of stomps on you.
[30:34.770 --> 30:35.590]  Um, it's fun.
[30:36.250 --> 30:38.890]  Hell, where I used to work, there was this kid who comes up to me.
[30:38.990 --> 30:39.770]  He's like, I need Root.
[30:39.890 --> 30:40.570]  I'm like, fuck you.
[30:42.250 --> 30:43.370]  The CEO comes in.
[30:43.450 --> 30:46.570]  He's like, hey, uh, get my friend who I used to camp out in college with Root.
[30:46.670 --> 30:47.310]  I'm like, fuck you.
[30:48.550 --> 30:50.810]  Um, there's two ways of going about doing it.
[30:50.870 --> 30:55.450]  The first way is, of course, you know, find your allies, make your friends, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[30:55.730 --> 30:58.710]  Um, you know, if something bad happens, report it.
[30:58.930 --> 31:00.670]  And, you know, be a good little citizen.
[31:01.110 --> 31:02.710]  The second way, of course, is more fun.
[31:03.370 --> 31:04.010]  Find out.
[31:04.370 --> 31:07.050]  All the high school administrators, they got egos.
[31:07.290 --> 31:08.090]  Why do they have egos?
[31:08.270 --> 31:11.350]  Because they're 40, and they're telling a bunch of 17-year-olds what to do.
[31:12.070 --> 31:13.030]  I mean, they're...
[31:13.030 --> 31:13.770]  That's why they do it.
[31:13.930 --> 31:14.830]  Yeah, it's a power trip.
[31:14.990 --> 31:15.630]  That's why they do it.
[31:15.910 --> 31:17.010]  They hate each other.
[31:17.430 --> 31:18.770]  Find out who hates each other.
[31:19.090 --> 31:19.650]  Keep it handy.
[31:20.410 --> 31:23.150]  When one of them pulls you into their office, bring up the other one.
[31:23.150 --> 31:28.090]  Turn it not into a fight between them and you, but them against themselves.
[31:28.990 --> 31:31.870]  They'll be so busy fighting each other, they'll forget about you.
[31:32.430 --> 31:34.550]  Or you'll get trampled in the...
[31:35.290 --> 31:36.350]  Hey, it's a risk.
[31:36.510 --> 31:37.570]  You want to be a revolutionary?
[31:37.990 --> 31:38.730]  Revolutionaries die.
[31:38.930 --> 31:39.650]  Sometimes they live.
[31:39.650 --> 31:40.050]  But...
[31:47.400 --> 31:50.020]  Here's the way to survive high school politics.
[31:50.700 --> 31:53.140]  The first step, find out what your vulnerabilities are.
[31:53.360 --> 31:56.200]  If your vulnerability is your parents, that's where they're going to hit you.
[31:56.500 --> 31:57.320]  Under doubt.
[31:59.220 --> 32:01.420]  Find out what their plan of attack is.
[32:01.580 --> 32:07.560]  If you turn them against themselves, and if you cut off their roots to your parents one way or another, what are they going to do?
[32:07.560 --> 32:08.820]  Well, they might kick you out.
[32:08.920 --> 32:09.580]  It's possible.
[32:09.900 --> 32:11.800]  But, this is public education.
[32:12.280 --> 32:15.380]  Just as you are obligated to go, they're obligated to teach.
[32:17.200 --> 32:18.580]  So, choose your path.
[32:18.580 --> 32:20.980]  The first path is, you report the things you find.
[32:21.120 --> 32:32.260]  Well, also, I think one of the most important things to do is, if you get in trouble, don't just be a kid and just sit there and take it.
[32:32.800 --> 32:37.040]  If you know that you didn't do something wrong, don't just sit there.
[32:38.220 --> 32:39.360]  Question and say what.
[32:39.620 --> 32:43.240]  And I would say 95% of the time, you won't get grilled.
[32:44.140 --> 32:44.540]  You know what I mean?
[32:44.540 --> 32:46.920]  I mean, if you say, what's your evidence?
[32:48.040 --> 32:49.480]  You know, what did I do wrong?
[32:49.680 --> 32:50.500]  They'll answer you.
[32:50.840 --> 32:56.620]  And, what I've found is that, most of the time, if you didn't do something wrong, they can't answer the question.
[32:57.180 --> 33:00.400]  Which is, as I said, what I would presume.
[33:00.660 --> 33:02.240]  Well, plus, here's the best part.
[33:02.620 --> 33:12.300]  Now, if you're out and about, pretty much the common advice is, if the feds come after you, don't try to fuck with them because they've already got their case.
[33:12.300 --> 33:17.300]  They've spent, you know, many, many hundreds of thousands of dollars and many, many months putting it together.
[33:18.120 --> 33:20.080]  High school administrators are not feds.
[33:20.240 --> 33:21.220]  They are stupid.
[33:21.740 --> 33:22.180]  Okay?
[33:22.400 --> 33:24.260]  And they're going to assume that you are stupid.
[33:24.560 --> 33:26.940]  If they say, open this up, say no.
[33:27.520 --> 33:29.660]  It all begins with just saying no.
[33:30.440 --> 33:35.200]  Now, they might, depending on where you go to school at or whatnot, they might bring in some real cops.
[33:35.780 --> 33:36.780]  Try saying no again.
[33:37.120 --> 33:38.620]  If they kick your ass, say yes.
[33:39.960 --> 33:40.760]  It hurts.
[33:41.300 --> 33:41.960]  Right here.
[33:42.960 --> 33:45.320]  But I mean, there's two ways of doing it.
[33:45.400 --> 33:51.040]  If you're going the second way, you know, if you find a vulnerability, don't tell the administration.
[33:51.440 --> 33:52.460]  Don't make yourself a target.
[33:53.920 --> 33:54.880]  It all depends.
[33:55.880 --> 34:05.200]  The easiest way, the second way, is if they come after you for one thing, try and have somebody else create something bigger but harmless to pose a distraction.
[34:05.200 --> 34:20.140]  If you're in trouble right now, and they're busy trying to, you know, hang you up because you found a password, which was stupid in the first place, have ten of your buddies start an underground newspaper that's just wild and makes crazy accusations.
[34:20.660 --> 34:25.080]  You get ten of your buddies to have ten copies to ten of their buddies.
[34:25.360 --> 34:28.580]  That's a distribution of a thousand, which can occur within ten minutes.
[34:28.800 --> 34:29.320]  I've done it.
[34:29.420 --> 34:29.960]  It's fun.
[34:30.600 --> 34:34.080]  They'll be so busy trying to figure that out and stuff, and they'll forget about you.
[34:36.080 --> 34:43.180]  So, I mean, to sum it up, then the stability of high school administrators, it's what you're fighting against in the first place, cash in on it.
[34:45.520 --> 34:55.440]  My question about that is, at what point do you become a politician playing everyone against each other and lose sight of what you're really doing?
[34:55.440 --> 34:57.540]  What I think he's saying is that you have to do that.
[34:57.800 --> 35:00.660]  You have to play politicians sometimes and question things.
[35:01.140 --> 35:02.460]  It's called social engineering.
[35:03.080 --> 35:04.960]  It happens when they make you targets.
[35:04.960 --> 35:06.340]  You just said that is completely right.
[35:06.880 --> 35:08.180]  You have to work the system.
[35:08.960 --> 35:10.480]  Until they make you a target, you're fine.
[35:10.600 --> 35:13.540]  When they make you a target, then you have to fight back with whatever tools you've got.
[35:14.160 --> 35:15.020]  Otherwise, they'll bring you up.
[35:15.140 --> 35:15.520]  They're powerful.
[35:16.060 --> 35:17.160]  They got more than you did.
[35:17.640 --> 35:18.720]  I agree with you.
[35:18.720 --> 35:19.840]  We have a couple of comments.
[35:20.300 --> 35:28.080]  What I want to just kick into very quickly is the stories we heard were not really stories of people breaking in and causing a lot of problems.
[35:28.300 --> 35:35.400]  There were people curious, skilled, in front of you guys, curious, skilled, maybe pushing the boundaries.
[35:35.720 --> 35:38.140]  And I think that that was part of the point of this panel.
[35:38.300 --> 35:40.420]  It's not necessarily that we really did anything wrong.
[35:40.640 --> 35:42.380]  It's the fact that we were falsely accused.
[35:43.720 --> 35:45.040]  That's why it's horror stories.
[35:47.060 --> 35:50.620]  If it were horror stories about doing bad things, we'd have the administrators in here.
[35:52.860 --> 35:58.280]  I'm currently going to be a junior in a school called Brock Science, and system administrators in my school know absolutely nothing.
[35:58.700 --> 36:03.700]  We run a Windows NT server and network on it with a free BSD web server because we have our own site and everything.
[36:04.480 --> 36:09.740]  What I don't understand is how so many kids come up and ask weird questions of, how do I down the server?
[36:09.880 --> 36:10.920]  How do I down the network?
[36:10.920 --> 36:16.200]  What I don't get why is if it's a place of education, why would you want to do that in the first place?
[36:16.280 --> 36:17.320]  Why would you even want to try?
[36:17.700 --> 36:19.220]  I mean, it's a place that people can learn.
[36:19.440 --> 36:23.980]  Like, some little innocent girl could be sitting on the network just wanting to type up her stuff so you can print out.
[36:24.200 --> 36:26.640]  Why would you want it down until all of a sudden she can't print it out?
[36:26.900 --> 36:30.680]  And most teachers don't take the excuse of, oh, the network was down and my computer was broken.
[36:30.840 --> 36:31.700]  They don't take it at all.
[36:31.900 --> 36:37.200]  So I want to know for everyone here, why would you even try to play with your school network if it's a place to learn?
[36:37.200 --> 36:44.280]  I mean, I thought being computer-using people would want to educate other people instead of restricting the education others get, right?
[36:44.600 --> 36:44.900]  Yeah.
[36:45.300 --> 36:46.760]  I think we are just trying to down the network.
[36:47.380 --> 36:49.400]  I mean, not unless I ever said we were trying to like...
[36:49.400 --> 36:57.100]  Now, I'm not accusing any of you, but I know like there are a lot of these little script kiddies as what you may want to call and other little morons that want to down the network.
[36:57.200 --> 36:58.520]  Why would you want to think of it?
[36:58.520 --> 37:00.460]  Yeah, I think it's just a product of the media.
[37:00.840 --> 37:08.180]  I mean, they see all these cool hackers on TV and take down the servers and are defacing webpages.
[37:08.540 --> 37:08.900]  Yeah.
[37:09.040 --> 37:11.100]  But they want to be cool like that.
[37:11.540 --> 37:13.740]  And before you can educate others, you have to educate yourself.
[37:14.420 --> 37:21.060]  Yeah, I know what you mean, but why would you want to go like tell a little kid, oh, you take the 3BSD servers down by, you know, doing a fine thing?
[37:21.080 --> 37:22.320]  Well, we don't help you with that.
[37:22.320 --> 37:24.760]  I'm not saying, but I know others in this room probably...
[37:24.760 --> 37:27.520]  Well, I mean, I can say 100% of people have asked me.
[37:27.700 --> 37:29.600]  Well, you're just asking to comment on it, basically.
[37:30.000 --> 37:31.480]  I don't think it's right for all people.
[37:39.020 --> 37:40.440]  I've got a little horror story.
[37:41.400 --> 37:46.220]  When he was describing his high school, mine just came to mind.
[37:46.360 --> 37:48.520]  We've got our own Gil, his name is Gary Gagnon.
[37:48.520 --> 37:55.900]  And his little stooge named Tom Grayson, who's the computer science guru in our little school.
[37:56.440 --> 38:06.780]  Anyway, a friend of mine, a guy in the white shirt, FBI back there, we were working together on a final project for our AP computer science class, C++.
[38:07.620 --> 38:14.000]  Instead of doing the same old boring things that we've been doing all year, my friend and I decided, hey, let's do something cool.
[38:14.000 --> 38:22.140]  So, we decided to do some digging and we figured out, basically, thanks to Andre Lamothe, how to do some DirectX stuff.
[38:22.600 --> 38:30.300]  So, we came to this teacher, gave him a big proposal on how we want to do this, just a little computer game using DirectX and Windows.
[38:30.660 --> 38:32.380]  I mean, it was going to be a lot of fun.
[38:33.560 --> 38:35.200]  So, we finished it, essentially.
[38:35.700 --> 38:38.400]  And we hand him a packet of code.
[38:38.540 --> 38:40.760]  I mean, Microsoft, as we all know, isn't all that efficient.
[38:40.760 --> 38:42.920]  It's probably about 50 pages of code.
[38:43.420 --> 38:50.360]  And he accuses me and my friend of stealing the code, since he didn't understand it.
[38:52.840 --> 38:55.200]  So, we get in trouble with the office.
[38:55.920 --> 38:59.300]  We get sent down to Gary Gagnon, aka Gil.
[39:00.640 --> 39:04.180]  And, lo and behold, I mean, they have no evidence that we stole it.
[39:04.240 --> 39:05.380]  I mean, we programmed it ourselves.
[39:05.380 --> 39:11.000]  But, you know, since, you know, it was too complicated for our teacher to understand how could we possibly get it ourselves.
[39:13.260 --> 39:15.820]  So, we don't get credit for the final project.
[39:15.820 --> 39:19.720]  And our grades for that class probably suffered severely for it.
[39:19.840 --> 39:29.740]  And, it's just another case of ignorance in the high school horror story that really shouldn't be taking place, just because people in authority think that they're more intelligent than they actually are.
[39:29.740 --> 39:30.680]  I think you're right.
[39:30.800 --> 39:33.100]  I think that's what a lot of the problems are.
[39:33.440 --> 39:36.680]  As I think I said before, it's just people being misinformed.
[39:38.500 --> 39:40.560]  People don't always have to recuse people at all.
[39:40.680 --> 39:42.780]  It's just not knowing what you're talking about.
[39:43.840 --> 39:49.240]  I'm a university professor, and one of the differences between university professors is we like having students who are smarter than us.
[39:57.160 --> 40:01.440]  Yeah, I just want a big comment about something this gentleman said about, you know, why do people do things.
[40:02.000 --> 40:14.580]  Just an observation is, you know, virus writers and people that do VBS scripts, it seems to me like they're wannabe vandals, but they don't have the nerve to go out and buy a can of spray paint.
[40:15.340 --> 40:18.440]  You know, and tag on the back of the 7-Eleven and store 24.
[40:19.680 --> 40:29.960]  So they just sit in their little, you know, dank bedrooms in front of their Windows machines, you know, ranking out code, and, you know, well, I've just destroyed someone's life's work.
[40:30.640 --> 40:31.660]  You know, wow.
[40:33.340 --> 40:36.060]  You know, well, he said, where's the thrill?
[40:36.260 --> 40:39.660]  What, what, you know, what do you get from that?
[40:40.780 --> 40:41.580]  MSNBC coverage.
[40:42.100 --> 40:42.420]  Yeah.
[40:44.540 --> 40:46.000]  Yeah, but only if you've got cable.
[40:47.420 --> 40:47.920]  We're stealing.
[40:47.920 --> 40:53.200]  So that said, I mean, it's just one of those things is that, you know, well, you know, if you're gonna do something, if you're gonna destroy something, destroy something.
[40:53.940 --> 40:54.200]  You know?
[40:54.460 --> 40:55.380]  Close shit up or something.
[40:55.720 --> 40:56.980]  Yeah, right, close shit up.
[40:57.600 --> 40:58.080]  You know?
[40:59.180 --> 40:59.620]  You know?
[40:59.800 --> 41:02.240]  For God's sakes, throw the brick through the fucking window.
[41:04.060 --> 41:04.500]  Thank you.
[41:04.880 --> 41:05.200]  Yeah.
[41:07.320 --> 41:08.040]  I like that one.
[41:11.170 --> 41:13.370]  I don't know, maybe I represent the truly lazy, right?
[41:13.550 --> 41:17.470]  All these tactics are all good and fine, but what about us who don't really want to deal with it?
[41:17.530 --> 41:17.750]  You know what I mean?
[41:17.850 --> 41:20.630]  Even though I'm out of high school, it's like, let's evade it all together.
[41:20.830 --> 41:21.110]  You know what I mean?
[41:21.290 --> 41:24.110]  I don't want to, like, write the tactics for my daily life.
[41:24.710 --> 41:31.710]  You know, I have to deal with the same bullshit, and it's the same people, small-minded, they think they know something, they think they have power, and they really don't.
[41:31.830 --> 41:32.730]  But how do you...
[41:32.730 --> 41:35.030]  My question is, how do you take them out of the equation altogether?
[41:35.330 --> 41:36.290]  Together, like, the tactics.
[41:36.990 --> 41:39.010]  I don't think you can't...
[41:51.630 --> 41:58.870]  I think you can try really hard, but, as I said, I was in an innocent club, just a webmaster's club.
[41:58.870 --> 42:04.390]  We were doing a student website, and he just... you couldn't get away from it.
[42:04.490 --> 42:08.110]  He just presumed that because we knew about computers, we were somehow associated with it.
[42:08.110 --> 42:09.850]  Right, when there is no controversy, you create it yourself.
[42:10.430 --> 42:14.070]  And, yeah, my point is that we'll be in the club if we want to be in the club.
[42:14.790 --> 42:18.470]  And we had no reason to think that when we joined this club, there would be a problem.
[42:19.150 --> 42:19.950]  So, you see how I'm saying?
[42:20.090 --> 42:21.970]  You have avoided it by not being in the club.
[42:22.310 --> 42:28.630]  But, you know, if you were afraid of getting in trouble all the time, you'd be under your bed in a corner or something.
[42:28.630 --> 42:33.330]  Yeah, I'm just wondering, like, is there a way... can all of us live our daily lives and not get harassed?
[42:33.410 --> 42:35.610]  Is there any future of that in sight?
[42:35.810 --> 42:36.990]  I know it sounds like a pipeline.
[42:38.430 --> 42:39.670]  A real free country.
[42:40.010 --> 42:40.810]  Is there a rock?
[42:41.650 --> 42:43.110]  Yeah, you've got to hide under a rock.
[42:43.970 --> 42:48.270]  Especially with all the stuff that's going on in the media today and things like that.
[42:48.750 --> 42:49.390]  You can't.
[42:50.590 --> 42:54.210]  And because there's so many different sources of media, everybody's missing one.
[42:54.490 --> 42:55.570]  Because there's always a different story.
[42:56.430 --> 42:59.070]  That's, I think that's a large part of it today.
[42:59.230 --> 42:59.910]  And I'll wait out.
[43:00.210 --> 43:00.950]  Here's the one I can see.
[43:01.510 --> 43:02.830]  It was the same thing back then.
[43:12.470 --> 43:13.670]  It's all thinking before it's been.
[43:14.090 --> 43:16.710]  And, you know, you're there.
[43:17.010 --> 43:18.530]  You can't do anything about it.
[43:18.630 --> 43:19.530]  They have control of you.
[43:20.250 --> 43:22.770]  We have to try to wrap up within about three minutes.
[43:22.910 --> 43:23.670]  We have other people here.
[43:23.770 --> 43:24.670]  One person waiting there.
[43:24.790 --> 43:26.310]  So let's try to have fairly quick comments.
[43:26.470 --> 43:27.510]  Let's try to get back on track.
[43:28.890 --> 43:33.290]  I just wanted to respond to the case where people were trying to find someone to vouch for them.
[43:33.790 --> 43:36.510]  And while it works in most cases, it didn't really work at heart.
[43:36.830 --> 43:37.550]  I went to school.
[43:37.630 --> 43:38.650]  Graduated in 94.
[43:38.850 --> 43:40.790]  We moved to a real small town, Texas School.
[43:41.090 --> 43:43.730]  We had 13 people in my graduating class.
[43:43.850 --> 43:44.450]  We were pretty small.
[43:45.190 --> 43:48.570]  And we were also very, very far behind the technology curve.
[43:48.570 --> 43:50.750]  And finally got some new machines in on here.
[43:50.910 --> 43:53.330]  To replace the Apple IIs that were still sitting in the back.
[43:53.770 --> 43:55.890]  Four students were really, really behind.
[43:56.670 --> 43:58.430]  And somehow there ended up being a cluster.
[43:58.630 --> 44:01.690]  There were just about four or five of us that actually were computer literate in the school.
[44:02.470 --> 44:03.290]  And we kind of hung out.
[44:03.510 --> 44:04.470]  We kind of bonded together.
[44:04.890 --> 44:08.230]  And when these machines came in, we definitely had to go check them out and take a look at them.
[44:08.290 --> 44:09.270]  We got permission from the school.
[44:09.390 --> 44:10.090]  They knew who we were.
[44:10.210 --> 44:10.790]  They knew who we were.
[44:10.910 --> 44:12.690]  A little bit technically, happy to let us in there.
[44:13.010 --> 44:18.090]  And the first thing that we found after we installed virus scanner was all, in fact, with Michelangelo or every one of them.
[44:18.530 --> 44:21.090]  So the first thing we did is we turned around and told the staff about it.
[44:21.190 --> 44:22.590]  And nobody seemed to even know what it was.
[44:22.750 --> 44:26.810]  So we went and talked to the people who bought the computers, that they bought the computers from.
[44:27.090 --> 44:32.030]  And these people were actually people who maintained service, did everything for the school, a little hometown thing.
[44:32.410 --> 44:41.170]  And they also had the reputation for selling machines or the cheapest hardware they could possibly find, and cutting any corners they possibly could, and making lots of mistakes.
[44:42.270 --> 44:48.610]  Case in point, the woman that owned the company destroyed her laptop by plugging the power supply with the keyboard.
[44:50.530 --> 44:51.690]  They were pretty bad.
[44:52.210 --> 44:55.990]  So anyway, we go to these people, we tell them that, hey, all these machines have Michelangelo on them.
[44:56.410 --> 44:58.390]  And they were like, okay, we better go in there and clean them.
[44:58.750 --> 45:00.650]  And we're like, do you guys know what Michelangelo does?
[45:01.330 --> 45:02.010]  No, really.
[45:02.110 --> 45:04.450]  Something about writing garbage disk or something?
[45:04.790 --> 45:06.470]  Can we set one of these forward and see what happened?
[45:06.670 --> 45:07.990]  And wipe it and reset it back up.
[45:08.070 --> 45:08.670]  Yeah, sure, go ahead.
[45:08.930 --> 45:12.810]  So we went in there, we sat down on one of the machines, and we set the date forward.
[45:13.210 --> 45:14.770]  And it destroyed it, and lo and behold.
[45:15.070 --> 45:17.570]  And we went through it and cleaned up every other machine in the office.
[45:17.830 --> 45:22.250]  And our understanding was that they were going to come in there and clean that one up later on for us.
[45:22.990 --> 45:24.330]  Well, they didn't do that.
[45:24.810 --> 45:32.010]  They came in, they told the principal that some kids were in there jacking around with it, destroyed one of the machines, and they're going to have to pay money to have them come back in there and fix it up later on.
[45:32.010 --> 45:33.770]  We thought this woman was on our side.
[45:34.070 --> 45:35.770]  And we ended up catching all of the blame for it.
[45:35.970 --> 45:37.870]  We turned around and tried to talk to the principal about it.
[45:38.030 --> 45:39.230]  They didn't want to hear anything from us.
[45:39.270 --> 45:40.370]  They didn't care for a bunch of kids.
[45:40.910 --> 45:48.670]  And we ended up, at least until they forgot about it, being restricted from any machines in the school, being the only people there that had a clue how to use them.
[45:49.370 --> 45:53.750]  And later on, eventually, they just kind of forgot and we started digging around and stuff again.
[45:53.950 --> 46:00.330]  But the moral behind the story was, you know, the people that, you know, you're looking forward to supporting you might be the person who stabs you in the back.
[46:00.330 --> 46:03.490]  Because all we did by doing what we did was make them look bad.
[46:03.750 --> 46:11.050]  It turned out that same virus ended up on the boot desks for the people that that company had hired to install a bunch of networking software in the school.
[46:11.290 --> 46:16.910]  And it also ended up on every other machine in the school for the administration, the grades in the school and everything.
[46:16.930 --> 46:17.510]  It was everywhere.
[46:17.750 --> 46:18.970]  And it destroyed a lot of data.
[46:19.250 --> 46:21.150]  And we caught the rap for the entire thing.
[46:22.190 --> 46:27.050]  We really only have time for maybe a couple of 20 or 30-second comments, so please be brief.
[46:27.050 --> 46:29.150]  I'm a liar.
[46:29.730 --> 46:30.490]  Oh, sorry.
[46:30.670 --> 46:31.270]  I can hear discrepancies.
[46:31.650 --> 46:33.090]  Just as well.
[46:33.970 --> 46:40.930]  Now, you mentioned that the AUD specifies that you're supposed to report any problems you discover with the network to who?
[46:43.000 --> 46:48.080]  The vice principal who plays a large part in the systems of the school or the sysadmin.
[46:48.500 --> 46:48.900]  Okay.
[46:49.360 --> 46:50.960]  Now, the sysadmin is the idiot.
[46:51.440 --> 46:53.580]  You're going to tell the idiot that he's an idiot.
[46:53.900 --> 46:53.920]  Well, they're both idiots.
[46:53.920 --> 46:54.440]  They're both idiots.
[46:54.520 --> 46:55.060]  I understand.
[46:55.280 --> 47:00.660]  But the point is, you want to go one level above that individual because they're the one that screwed up.
[47:01.120 --> 47:10.600]  So a nice letter to the principal, and I do mean letter, on paper, which you can cc perhaps to the board if you don't get a response from the principal, if you don't get an appointment with the principal, to report this kind of thing.
[47:10.600 --> 47:13.620]  You'll find that the principal will say, well, wait a second.
[47:13.960 --> 47:19.280]  Are you telling me that this person in this company with whom we have a contract to maintain our networks doesn't know what they're doing?
[47:20.700 --> 47:28.520]  I will practically guarantee that you'll be sitting in the principal's office with the company representative or the administrator, and they're going to straighten it out right there.
[47:28.520 --> 47:40.100]  And the principal is going to trust you because you came forward, and the IT guy who doesn't know what's going on, and you can actually prove that he's a moron, is going to sit there and go, uh, uh, uh, uh.
[47:41.440 --> 47:44.440]  At which point, a lot of interesting things can happen.
[47:44.920 --> 47:46.320]  You merge and you work for an ISP.
[47:46.580 --> 47:52.980]  How would you like to get the contract for the district to run the service for the school for the rest of the year, or perhaps years from there?
[47:52.980 --> 47:54.740]  You wind up making yourself some money.
[47:54.840 --> 47:58.000]  Become the administrator because you obviously know more than what the guy does.
[47:58.460 --> 47:59.820]  I mean, there are options.
[48:00.000 --> 48:02.780]  You just go a level up and a level up, but you keep going.
[48:02.960 --> 48:07.740]  But don't report it to the guy who's the one who screwed up because he's going to look to cover his own ass.
[48:08.000 --> 48:14.260]  Right, and there's stuff like that we just said that I think would have covered my ass if I had thought of it at the time.
[48:14.400 --> 48:15.920]  So that's definitely great advice.
[48:15.920 --> 48:17.200]  Would you like your advice?
[48:17.280 --> 48:19.180]  Go ahead and get a last, uh, comment.
[48:20.340 --> 48:22.280]  I'll have to go ahead and just have 30 seconds.
[48:22.480 --> 48:23.680]  Oh, maybe I'll just stop us together.
[48:23.860 --> 48:28.800]  The, uh, uh, we're trying to get back on the schedule with the, uh, with the conference.
[48:29.080 --> 48:34.980]  So, um, maybe we can just go one more time and quickly mention your, uh, your handle so people know when they can talk to you a little bit of a line.
[48:35.980 --> 48:37.220]  Uh, I'm Pete.
[48:37.480 --> 48:38.280]  My handle is Pete.
[48:43.210 --> 48:44.710]  My website is squarefoo.net.
[48:44.870 --> 48:46.330]  There's nothing on there, but it's mine.
[48:46.330 --> 48:48.690]  We'll check it out.
[48:50.070 --> 48:59.070]  Um, Fear Free, usually on IRC.2600.net, lots of channels, uh, fearfree.hotsuitmedia.com.
[48:59.510 --> 49:01.630]  Uh, so www.hotsuitmedia.com.
[49:02.310 --> 49:06.050]  And I'm just graphics and I own, uh, commoner64.com.
[49:06.390 --> 49:08.610]  So, and you can come here at 2600.net.
[49:09.230 --> 49:12.530]  Um, Slog403, I own ValentinosJack.com.
[49:13.770 --> 49:16.210]  Super, uh, thanks to all the panelists and thanks to the audience.
[49:16.670 --> 49:17.070]  Thank you.