[00:02.530 --> 00:04.050]  Missing the link in the chain.
[00:30.310 --> 00:31.150]  This should work.
[00:32.070 --> 00:33.590]  They're not actually queuing up.
[00:34.130 --> 00:34.510]  Okay.
[00:34.830 --> 00:35.610]  I know this works.
[00:35.770 --> 00:36.030]  Okay.
[00:36.810 --> 00:38.810]  So if you want, go ahead and start and I'll mess with it.
[00:39.230 --> 00:39.610]  Okay.
[00:42.170 --> 00:42.850]  Oh, there it is.
[00:43.030 --> 00:43.110]  Go ahead.
[00:43.530 --> 00:43.750]  Okay.
[00:44.250 --> 00:44.490]  Ready?
[00:44.830 --> 00:45.090]  Oh, yeah.
[00:45.410 --> 00:46.930]  You might actually want to turn it sideways.
[00:46.930 --> 00:48.830]  Three handful of your gear sideways.
[00:49.070 --> 00:50.310]  Is this...
[00:51.230 --> 00:51.790]  Oh.
[00:54.050 --> 00:54.610]  Okay.
[00:57.010 --> 00:58.130]  Or that's...
[00:58.130 --> 00:59.130]  I think it goes to the other side.
[00:59.870 --> 01:00.050]  Oh.
[01:00.370 --> 01:00.610]  Okay.
[01:06.050 --> 01:06.610]  Yeah.
[01:06.930 --> 01:07.490]  Is that a tunnel?
[01:07.750 --> 01:08.530]  Yeah, this way...
[01:08.530 --> 01:09.710]  This way...
[01:09.710 --> 01:10.730]  It's facing towards me.
[01:11.370 --> 01:12.010]  All right.
[01:13.910 --> 01:14.850]  Okay, you ready?
[01:17.390 --> 01:18.390]  Yeah, please go ahead.
[01:18.530 --> 01:18.850]  Okay.
[01:19.110 --> 01:21.870]  Here is Atom, who's going...
[01:21.870 --> 01:30.790]  Atom Smasher, who's going to talk about slaying the corporate litigation dragon, emerging the victor in an intellectual property cyber suit.
[01:31.030 --> 01:31.790]  It's all yours.
[01:31.990 --> 01:32.290]  Thank you.
[01:33.650 --> 01:35.810]  Thanks, everyone, for getting up so early in the afternoon.
[01:37.530 --> 01:37.970]  Um...
[01:37.970 --> 01:41.970]  I just came from the talk in the other room when corporations attack.
[01:42.810 --> 01:50.290]  And I think that was, if nothing else, that's a good example of the fact that you can make all the right moves in the game and still lose.
[01:51.610 --> 01:52.050]  Um...
[01:52.050 --> 01:57.830]  What I'm going to talk about is probably a little bit more upbeat as far as the intellectual property aspect of things go.
[01:57.830 --> 02:05.130]  And it's a good example of when your opponent does all the wrong things, they can make you look really damn good.
[02:05.130 --> 02:07.270]  And you can really pull one over on them.
[02:07.670 --> 02:08.230]  Uh...
[02:08.230 --> 02:14.850]  A couple of years ago, I decided to start an experiment to see what happens by taking a website...
[02:14.850 --> 02:24.290]  A Fortune 500 company that I used to be employed by and tacking on a dash sucks and a dot com to the name and putting up a website.
[02:26.130 --> 02:26.690]  Um...
[02:26.690 --> 02:28.870]  And that's what I'm going to mostly talk about today.
[02:29.850 --> 02:30.410]  Um...
[02:30.410 --> 02:32.810]  Do law as a hobby, but I'm...
[02:32.810 --> 02:35.070]  Much to my wife's dismay, I'm not a lawyer.
[02:35.930 --> 02:36.490]  And...
[02:36.490 --> 02:39.270]  I'm a hacker, and she deals with that.
[02:39.590 --> 02:42.830]  And also, much to her dismay, I don't usually dress like this.
[02:42.870 --> 02:43.890]  I dress like a hacker.
[02:45.130 --> 02:45.690]  So...
[02:45.690 --> 02:49.470]  Now I'll talk about what I was actually doing here.
[02:50.430 --> 02:50.990]  Is...
[02:50.990 --> 02:52.550]  Like I said, it was an experiment.
[02:52.550 --> 02:54.070]  I didn't know what was going to happen.
[02:55.010 --> 02:58.590]  But I did know that whatever I did, they were going to get pissed off about it.
[02:59.090 --> 03:01.970]  And try and make it stop through legal channels.
[03:02.850 --> 03:03.330]  So...
[03:03.330 --> 03:04.430]  What I did...
[03:04.430 --> 03:07.970]  First was part of the game plan, was I knew that what I really wanted...
[03:10.250 --> 03:10.730]  Was...
[03:10.730 --> 03:13.030]  Company name dash sucks dot com.
[03:13.490 --> 03:13.970]  Uh...
[03:13.970 --> 03:17.450]  How many people in the room have something along those lines that they're running right now?
[03:17.450 --> 03:19.410]  Some type of a sucks website.
[03:19.570 --> 03:19.750]  Anybody?
[03:20.930 --> 03:21.470]  Okay.
[03:23.250 --> 03:23.810]  Um...
[03:23.810 --> 03:27.510]  And I knew that ultimately, what I wanted was CSX...
[03:27.510 --> 03:28.310]  And the company...
[03:28.310 --> 03:31.990]  It's not a household name, but they're about halfway down the list of Fortune 500 companies.
[03:32.090 --> 03:33.970]  They mostly do freight trains.
[03:34.330 --> 03:35.770]  It's CSX transportation.
[03:36.310 --> 03:40.470]  And I knew what I ultimately wanted was CSX sucks dot com.
[03:41.530 --> 03:53.050]  And I knew that in order to manipulate the situation, to get that, and have them be happy with it, What I had to first do was set it up so that they were not happy.
[03:53.270 --> 04:00.790]  And the way I did that was I first set it up as CSX diversity dot com.
[04:01.110 --> 04:12.810]  And basically that was just through one of these big corporation things where they, you know, all this stuff that they like to pat themselves on the back for doing.
[04:13.030 --> 04:15.370]  So I took that and that became the website.
[04:16.350 --> 04:20.950]  Shortly after putting the website up, I got my cease and desist letter.
[04:27.430 --> 04:31.990]  And basically that was them just saying that they don't like the website.
[04:34.410 --> 04:46.850]  And of course, they demand that I immediately shut down the website, transfer it to them, take off all my pictures, take off all my content, all that stuff that I had no intention of doing.
[04:47.150 --> 04:53.230]  My response to the cease and desist letter was pretty short and sweet.
[04:53.450 --> 04:55.930]  I basically said, f*ck you, sue me.
[04:57.130 --> 05:01.610]  And shortly after that, they said, okay, we will.
[05:03.570 --> 05:07.070]  At that point, we went back and forth for about a year or so.
[05:07.070 --> 05:14.450]  Actually, a little over a year after they served me with a formal complaint in federal court.
[05:15.010 --> 05:19.550]  And the formal complaint basically went into all the details of why...
[05:20.770 --> 05:24.850]  Allegedly, the complaint was based on trademark infringement.
[05:25.410 --> 05:30.930]  And that was the cornerstone of the legitimate aspect of their complaint.
[05:31.850 --> 05:45.710]  However, the complaint was written so poorly that they really did a good job of painting themselves into a corner, where there were actually a lot of free speech issues that were raised in the complaint that had nothing whatsoever to do with trademark infringement.
[05:46.510 --> 05:55.210]  And that was the big thing that allowed me to look at it, realize that they had painted themselves into a corner.
[05:55.210 --> 06:05.810]  And by filing suit against me, what they've actually accomplished then was there was no way out for them other than to negotiate on my terms.
[06:06.870 --> 06:20.090]  Because any half-competent judge, and most judges are half-competent at best, would look at that complaint that they filed and laugh at it, and just completely laugh their ass off over it.
[06:20.090 --> 06:23.530]  And so they knew that they didn't want it to go to court.
[06:23.690 --> 06:25.790]  They were just using it primarily to threaten me.
[06:26.530 --> 06:30.010]  I knew that they didn't want it to go to court because they'd get laughed at.
[06:30.770 --> 06:38.090]  So that set up the stage for me to begin negotiating the contract with them.
[06:38.970 --> 06:58.190]  On the website, which is now csx-sucks.com, that's C as in Charlie, S as in Sam, X as in X-Ray, dash, you all know how to spell sucks, and .com, I've posted the original version of the agreement, which is the agreement that they submitted to me, and said,
[06:58.270 --> 07:00.290]  here's the agreement, we'd like you to sign it.
[07:00.430 --> 07:02.650]  And once you sign it, we'll drop the case against you.
[07:03.410 --> 07:12.290]  After a year and a half of negotiations, we wound up with quite a different agreement, which is one that I happen to like a lot more, for several reasons.
[07:12.570 --> 07:14.850]  And that's going to be mostly what I'm going to be talking about.
[07:17.190 --> 07:29.450]  I'm just going to go over the agreements, pretty much point by point, going over what they originally wanted, and what I wound up getting.
[07:34.170 --> 07:52.600]  Without going into too much detail, without going into too much detail of the entire agreement, what I did here, and this is available also on the website, is this is a breakdown of side-by-side what they had originally wanted, and what they wound up getting in the end.
[07:52.760 --> 07:54.780]  And they got it in the end.
[07:59.880 --> 08:03.640]  The first two paragraphs were pretty neutral.
[08:06.040 --> 08:10.040]  We acknowledge that we were being sued, that this is what they want, that this is what I want.
[08:11.480 --> 08:16.300]  The types of things that aren't particularly partial towards either party.
[08:16.440 --> 08:21.500]  They're just things that are reasonable to agree on in any suit or in any settlement.
[08:22.920 --> 08:28.940]  So these are the things that I do kind of skip over in the side-by-side comparison.
[08:34.130 --> 08:35.590]  Okay, let's skip here.
[08:36.910 --> 08:40.890]  Paragraph two of what they had originally proposed.
[08:41.570 --> 08:47.170]  And of course, doing this under the name Atom Smasher, of course, they served me with papers.
[08:47.330 --> 08:50.810]  You know, the FedEx package comes to Atom Smasher, which is entertaining.
[08:50.810 --> 09:03.750]  And actually, the web server that was hosting it at the time, the WHOIS, the address was listed as 123 BSD Drive, Unixville, New Jersey.
[09:04.210 --> 09:09.470]  And I can only assume that they sent a FedEx package to that address to cover their asses.
[09:12.210 --> 09:14.630]  Paragraph two of what they had originally asked for.
[09:14.790 --> 09:21.230]  It says, Smasher does not hereby reserve any rights to use the CSX diversity domain name for any purpose whatsoever.
[09:22.150 --> 09:32.490]  Now, I knew that part of my plan here was to get rid of CSXdiversity.com, but to do it in a way so that they're asking me to get rid of it.
[09:32.490 --> 09:38.910]  And basically manipulate the situation so that I can say, well, sure, I'll get rid of that.
[09:39.470 --> 09:43.050]  But I'm sure you're not going to shut down my free speech rights.
[09:43.870 --> 09:47.070]  So would you have any problem if I do CSXsucks.com?
[09:47.570 --> 09:52.810]  And if I do it to that domain name, then we're not going to be infringing on any of your trademarks, right?
[09:53.450 --> 10:03.210]  And that kind of forces them into a corner where they have... they're kind of stuck where they have to say, no, no, we don't want to step on your free speech rights.
[10:03.290 --> 10:04.030]  That's not our goal.
[10:04.090 --> 10:05.370]  We just want to protect our trademark.
[10:06.070 --> 10:14.530]  And that sets the whole stage for doing what I was doing here, which is set up the site so that they are happy about it.
[10:14.710 --> 10:17.110]  And I just want them to be happy, really.
[10:18.630 --> 10:26.790]  So the first draft, which is what they offered me, it says, I'm not allowed to use CSX diversity.
[10:26.910 --> 10:27.930]  That's their trademark.
[10:28.570 --> 10:29.430]  Okay, fine.
[10:29.950 --> 10:35.010]  What it wound up being in the final draft is we added...
[10:35.010 --> 10:41.670]  And this is exactly the way it is in the agreement, is except that these...
[10:41.670 --> 10:47.890]  So it says, Smasher does not hereby reserve the rights to use the CSX diversity domain name for any purpose whatsoever.
[10:48.210 --> 11:01.810]  And then we added, except that these domain names may be used next to the hit counter on the CSXsucks.com website to state, this includes hits to the site's previous location, CSXdiversity.com.
[11:02.690 --> 11:09.070]  And my purpose in doing that was so that after doing the switch, people could still find the site through a search engine.
[11:09.190 --> 11:14.790]  So if you go to Google, type in CSX diversity, guess who still comes up number one?
[11:15.650 --> 11:16.130]  Okay?
[11:17.150 --> 11:18.910]  That was part of the plan here.
[11:20.970 --> 11:22.770]  Can they Google bomb you down?
[11:23.250 --> 11:24.050]  Google what?
[11:24.210 --> 11:25.770]  They could Google bomb you down though.
[11:26.310 --> 11:28.530]  If they were motivated, they probably could.
[11:28.770 --> 11:31.790]  But apparently, they don't have anyone that...
[11:32.730 --> 11:36.830]  Well, actually, I talked to one of the guys who was fired from their IT department.
[11:37.050 --> 11:38.350]  He said they fired everybody.
[11:38.350 --> 11:43.710]  So, you know, typical Fortune 500 company, you're in a non-revenue position, we're going to fire you.
[11:44.070 --> 11:45.870]  And no one...
[11:45.870 --> 11:48.650]  Apparently, it hasn't occurred to them to Google bomb it.
[11:53.830 --> 11:54.410]  Um...
[11:54.410 --> 11:54.910]  Okay.
[11:56.130 --> 12:00.230]  Paragraph 2F, which...
[12:00.230 --> 12:01.530]  Let's see here.
[12:04.550 --> 12:16.930]  Paragraph 2F, the original contract, talks about the effective date that we're going to switch over the domains and what domain names we can and can't use, that type of thing.
[12:18.250 --> 12:18.770]  Um...
[12:18.770 --> 12:21.110]  There was something missing from that.
[12:22.170 --> 12:37.150]  So what we added to it was, CSX agrees not to take or cause any action that would impair or interfere with Smasher's ownership, registration, or maintenance of the CSXsucks.com or the publication of the website content on CSXsucks.com.
[12:37.610 --> 12:40.350]  Basically, before we added these little words to the...
[12:40.350 --> 12:46.390]  to the agreement, that would have allowed them to come back.
[12:46.930 --> 12:47.290]  They...
[12:47.290 --> 12:50.970]  Because basically, they were saying, well, we're not going to sue you for CSXsucks.com.
[12:52.370 --> 12:58.430]  And I kind of looked at it and said, well, that's great, but as soon as we sign this agreement, you get CSXsucks.com.
[12:58.730 --> 13:03.370]  And that still leaves the door open for you to come back and sue me for CSXsucks.com.
[13:03.370 --> 13:04.970]  That's not good.
[13:05.670 --> 13:13.850]  So, I had this added in, and that covered me again after we flipped the switch and changed from CSX Diversity to CSXsucks.
[13:18.890 --> 13:28.070]  Paragraph 2G, as of the effective date, the current disclaimer located at the CSXdiversity.com will be replaced with a disclaimer in the form of Exhibit C.
[13:28.070 --> 13:32.670]  That stayed from the original draft and the final draft both.
[13:33.450 --> 13:43.340]  And the entertaining thing about this is this is a disclaimer that they're saying I have to put up on the old website CSXdiversity.com.
[13:43.850 --> 13:50.970]  However, within 48 hours of signing the agreement, they get CSXdiversity.com.
[13:51.370 --> 13:55.390]  And the disclaimer doesn't have to go on CSXsucks.com.
[13:55.390 --> 14:05.330]  So, what they're basically making me do here is add a disclaimer to a domain that's going to cease to exist by the time anyone reads the disclaimer.
[14:05.550 --> 14:07.070]  So, I'm not going to object to that.
[14:07.230 --> 14:08.590]  That's not a problem to me.
[14:11.650 --> 14:22.430]  Paragraph 4, they had originally said, Smasher shall not use any of CSX's trade names, marks, trade names, and service marks.
[14:23.450 --> 14:25.650]  And I kind of thought that was a little prohibitive.
[14:25.970 --> 14:34.010]  So, what I wound up having added in there is, accept the following CSX trademarks which may be used.
[14:34.290 --> 14:40.630]  CSX, CSXT, CSX Technology, CSX Transportation, and CSX Corporation.
[14:41.510 --> 14:42.910]  What the hell did they do to you?
[14:43.670 --> 14:43.990]  Hmm?
[14:44.210 --> 14:45.430]  What the hell did they do to you?
[14:45.730 --> 14:46.530]  That's off topic.
[14:46.970 --> 14:48.830]  It's off topic for the trademark infringement.
[14:48.910 --> 14:52.510]  But basically, if you go to the website, you'll see why they're such a great company to work for.
[14:54.090 --> 14:55.610]  The question was, what did they do to me?
[14:58.450 --> 14:59.970]  And, you know, it's nothing personal.
[15:00.110 --> 15:01.390]  Like I said, this is an experiment.
[15:02.050 --> 15:03.410]  I wanted to see what happens.
[15:04.630 --> 15:05.770]  And that's all.
[15:06.010 --> 15:07.810]  And having done it, I know what happens.
[15:09.090 --> 15:10.590]  And now I can talk about it.
[15:12.310 --> 15:12.790]  Okay.
[15:14.010 --> 15:15.410]  Um, paragraph five.
[15:15.590 --> 15:17.330]  This is a neat little artistic thing.
[15:17.630 --> 15:32.730]  It says, the CSX SUCKS logo, which is my variation on their corporate logo that I was using on the website, shall be altered in design and appearance to be substantially similar to the logo annexed here, too, as Exhibit D.
[15:34.050 --> 15:40.810]  Basically, they had me come up with, uh, about a dozen or so different logos, designs.
[15:41.270 --> 15:43.890]  And I had them pick the one that they liked the most.
[15:46.450 --> 15:50.750]  And they said, we'll let you use that.
[15:50.870 --> 15:52.770]  We don't feel that that infringes on our trademark.
[15:53.870 --> 16:00.850]  But the way they worded it is kind of artistically limiting, since they say I have to use something that's substantially similar to that.
[16:01.430 --> 16:11.610]  And I said, well, now what if a year goes by, and I want to do something else that doesn't infringe on their trademark, but maybe it's not substantially similar to this particular example.
[16:12.290 --> 16:16.690]  So we got that changed to Smasher will display a CS...
[16:16.690 --> 16:23.710]  Smasher will display a CSX SUCKS logo on the csxsucks.com website.
[16:23.950 --> 16:26.370]  So I am obligated to display that logo.
[16:28.890 --> 16:35.890]  That does not infringe on CSX's trademark, such as a logo annexed here to an exhibit D.
[16:36.430 --> 16:44.090]  So basically, instead of using that as a constraining example, I can use that as just an example.
[16:44.330 --> 16:49.130]  So whatever logo I have to put on there does not have to be substantially similar to anything.
[16:49.970 --> 17:00.490]  And of course, with this agreement, it's going to be pretty hard for them to come after me, even if they do use something that does push the envelope a little bit on their trademark.
[17:07.420 --> 17:09.240]  Actually, I can probably...
[17:09.240 --> 17:13.700]  Yeah, I probably could say that that logo is endorsed by CSX.
[17:13.920 --> 17:23.960]  And also, I can probably point out that under the agreement that I have with them to operate the website, I am obligated to display that logo on the website.
[17:31.630 --> 17:32.390]  Now...
[17:39.790 --> 17:40.810]  Okay.
[17:41.310 --> 17:44.170]  Some of the pictures I had, I found amusing.
[17:44.490 --> 17:45.530]  They didn't.
[17:47.910 --> 18:00.090]  One of the things that I was not happy with when I was with the company was their treatment of different employees based on race, religion, that sort of thing.
[18:00.610 --> 18:12.470]  And I thought what better represented the way that the company actually did business was a picture of some hooded guys in clan outfits with a cross burning in the... with a cross in the background.
[18:12.790 --> 18:19.490]  And the caption under that says, CSX is, you know, a traditional southern company with traditional southern values.
[18:24.880 --> 18:37.240]  And also a picture of some chain gang crew, all black, you know, slave chain gang from the 1800s or so, working on building some railroad tracks.
[18:37.460 --> 18:43.700]  And the caption under that is something like, CSX the employee is our most valuable asset.
[18:45.500 --> 18:47.200]  They didn't like that.
[18:48.520 --> 18:53.420]  Despite the fact that it really didn't have much bearing to trademark infringement.
[18:54.060 --> 19:02.600]  So what they originally proposed was the photographs of the chain gang and the Ku Klux Klan shall be eliminated from the website.
[19:02.800 --> 19:12.420]  Smasher will not use such photographs or similar images on the csxsucks.com website, nor in any way with direct or indirect reference to CSX.
[19:13.100 --> 19:14.440]  I didn't like that.
[19:15.360 --> 19:16.700]  So we got rid of it.
[19:18.180 --> 19:20.520]  Those pictures are still on the website today.
[19:21.300 --> 19:22.640]  And actually it was...
[19:22.640 --> 19:27.880]  Looking at the way that they filed the paperwork in the case, state...
[19:28.200 --> 19:33.740]  The way they complained about that was probably the biggest bullet they put in their own foot.
[19:33.740 --> 19:40.560]  Because that was one of the most more blatant things that had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with trademark infringement.
[19:42.040 --> 19:44.260]  And they were still complaining about it.
[19:44.440 --> 19:47.340]  So that put the whole complaint in question.
[19:49.980 --> 19:52.080]  Paragraph 7 through 9, nothing exciting.
[19:53.820 --> 19:54.720]  Paragraph 10.
[19:56.140 --> 19:59.320]  Now this is interesting for a whole lot of reasons.
[19:59.320 --> 20:08.840]  It says, CSX will pay to Smasher, fill in the blank, money, the costs associated with the acquisition and transfer of the CSX diversity domain name.
[20:10.800 --> 20:21.740]  And basically the deal here was, I was going to transfer everything to csxsucks.com, give them csxdiversity.com since I'm no longer using it.
[20:21.860 --> 20:23.600]  They're going to reimburse me for it.
[20:26.960 --> 20:27.700]  Not bad.
[20:28.260 --> 20:30.860]  Especially considering I bought the domains for 15 bucks.
[20:31.040 --> 20:37.680]  And they must have assumed I bought them for a lot more money because they offered me 100 bucks per domain name to sell the domains back to them.
[20:37.900 --> 20:39.380]  Which I think they let expire.
[20:39.560 --> 20:47.680]  So if anyone else wants to renew those domain names and maybe redirect them, I probably would get myself in trouble for doing that.
[20:47.800 --> 20:49.640]  But I don't know if anyone else would.
[20:49.800 --> 20:51.580]  Especially if it's done in China or Cuba.
[20:54.700 --> 21:06.640]  Now, also, the original draft of this, I think they didn't do a good job of scrubbing up their Word document because at the end of the paragraph, there was a little comment that says, do we really want to do this?
[21:08.020 --> 21:11.780]  But by the time it crossed my desk, yeah, they really wanted to do it.
[21:13.740 --> 21:15.800]  Now, the one thing that they...
[21:15.800 --> 21:17.720]  I got everything I wanted out of this agreement.
[21:18.480 --> 21:22.780]  The one thing that they didn't want to bend on was a confidentiality clause.
[21:23.000 --> 21:24.420]  Because the one thing...
[21:24.420 --> 21:26.760]  If you're a Fortune 500 company, the one...
[21:26.760 --> 21:40.700]  One of the few things that will make you look dumber than somebody running, you know, your company sucks dot com website is having it publicly known that you've entered into an agreement with them that they're allowed to operate that website.
[21:40.700 --> 21:48.980]  So there was a confidentiality clause that they were hell-bent on not touching.
[21:49.140 --> 21:54.840]  No matter what I wanted to do to that paragraph, they didn't want to do anything...
[21:54.840 --> 21:55.940]  They wanted that in there.
[21:58.040 --> 22:12.220]  And the final round of negotiations, which I had no idea was going to be the final round until it came back signed, is when I looked at this paragraph and I said, this is a huge company suing me through a huge law firm.
[22:13.440 --> 22:15.240]  They're going to send me a $200 check.
[22:16.140 --> 22:17.720]  That's going to get lost in the shuffle.
[22:17.720 --> 22:18.660]  I just know it.
[22:18.800 --> 22:21.200]  And when it does, I'm not going to have any recourse.
[22:21.440 --> 22:24.100]  So they've got no motivation to ever write me a check.
[22:24.940 --> 22:36.080]  So what I wound up adding in here at the last minute to CSX will pay Smasher blank fill-in-the-blank money, the cost associated with the acquisition and transfer the CSX diversity domain name.
[22:36.300 --> 22:49.580]  And we added, in the event that CSX fails to pay any fees owed to Smasher under this paragraph within 30 days, the transfer date, paragraph 13 of this agreement will be void.
[22:51.320 --> 22:54.160]  Paragraph 13, by the way, was the confidentiality agreement.
[22:54.960 --> 22:56.360]  We'll get to that part.
[23:00.170 --> 23:08.910]  Paragraph 11 of what they originally offered me, CSX releases and discharges Smasher for use of the domain name CSXdiversity.com.
[23:09.300 --> 23:17.670]  Which again, okay, so as soon as we sign this, you're just going to sue me again and send me another cease and desist letter for CSXsucks.com.
[23:17.710 --> 23:18.280]  That's no fun.
[23:19.100 --> 23:27.690]  So here, again, what we added in was a more explicit release for not just what I'm giving them but what I'm keeping.
[23:27.690 --> 23:36.210]  So they can't come back to me the day after we sign off on this and sue me again for CSXsucks.com.
[23:38.960 --> 23:39.600]  Let's see.
[23:40.020 --> 23:42.910]  There was a paragraph missing between 11 and 12.
[23:45.080 --> 23:48.690]  And what I wanted to add in there was...
[23:49.360 --> 23:50.340]  And this is kind of important.
[23:50.780 --> 23:57.560]  The parties shall execute a stipulation of dismissal of the action, which basically means that once I sign, you drop the case against me.
[23:58.060 --> 24:01.000]  The original draft, they kind of overlooked that.
[24:01.380 --> 24:10.480]  And under the original agreement, we could have all signed off on it and they could have continued with the lawsuit, which certainly didn't do me any good.
[24:11.210 --> 24:14.710]  So that was very important to get that in there.
[24:14.820 --> 24:17.380]  That if we sign, you stop suing me.
[24:19.410 --> 24:22.210]  Paragraph 12 was nothing exciting.
[24:24.580 --> 24:27.640]  Paragraph 13, this is the fun stuff.
[24:29.410 --> 24:48.880]  It says, None of the parties here too, me and them, shall directly or indirectly inform or issue any oral or written statement to the press, that's all of you, or on a website, including csxsucks.com,
[24:54.670 --> 25:06.170]  concerning the conduct of the parties with respect to the matters mentioned in this agreement, this agreement, or any terms of this agreement, without the prior written approval of all of the parties here too.
[25:07.030 --> 25:09.890]  And that's basically a shut the hell up clause.
[25:09.890 --> 25:15.690]  Meaning that, if that stands, I'm not allowed to stand here and talk about it.
[25:15.770 --> 25:17.310]  I'm not allowed to publish the agreement.
[25:17.470 --> 25:19.650]  I'm not allowed to acknowledge that there's agreement.
[25:19.890 --> 25:22.470]  And I'm not allowed to discuss any specifics of the agreement.
[25:23.790 --> 25:36.870]  Now, having thought a little bit ahead with the part where they're going to reimburse me, and suspecting that that check was going to get lost in the shuffle, we got this thrown out.
[25:38.210 --> 25:43.950]  This whole paragraph became null and void after 30 days went by, and I didn't get my check.
[25:45.450 --> 25:49.570]  It's kind of fun to look at the letter that I sent them.
[25:49.750 --> 25:52.370]  And this was after about 90 days went by.
[25:52.590 --> 25:58.390]  I talked to a lawyer who was handling this, and I said, 31 days went by.
[25:58.470 --> 25:59.710]  Can I call him on it now?
[26:00.150 --> 26:04.970]  He said, well, 31 days you're kind of pushing it.
[26:05.050 --> 26:06.210]  They can still write you a check.
[26:06.230 --> 26:08.490]  A court might decide that they're not really late.
[26:08.490 --> 26:09.550]  They're just a little bit late.
[26:09.670 --> 26:10.790]  They can still hold you to it.
[26:11.110 --> 26:14.530]  So he suggested I wait about 90 or 100 or so days.
[26:15.290 --> 26:16.090]  Which I did.
[26:17.190 --> 26:24.370]  And what I did then was I just wrote this letter, sent it in to their attorneys.
[26:24.910 --> 26:37.230]  And in regards to our agreement concerning the csxsucks.com website, CSX has failed to comply with its obligations under paragraph 8 and 9, CSX letter and payment of fees.
[26:37.230 --> 26:48.470]  I find that CSX's failure to comply with CSX's obligations under paragraph 9, relieves me of any obligation that I may have otherwise been held to under paragraph 13.
[26:50.070 --> 27:04.310]  Since it appears that I'm under no obligation to refrain from publicly releasing this agreement, I will be posting it in both its original and final drafts on my website, csxsucks.com, and also make it available to chillingeffects.org.
[27:04.430 --> 27:06.310]  Thank you, Wendy Seltzer, if you're in the room.
[27:09.130 --> 27:15.550]  Chillingeffects.org, for those of you who don't know, they work with EFF, and they're a clearinghouse of cease and desist letters.
[27:16.050 --> 27:20.570]  So if anyone gets a cease and desist letter, make sure they get a copy of it.
[27:22.350 --> 27:24.410]  And, of course, I'm not a lawyer.
[27:24.610 --> 27:35.290]  So, the final paragraph, if you believe that I am not correct in my understanding of the agreement, or if you wish to renegotiate the terms, I'm reasonable, please feel free to contact me.
[27:35.290 --> 27:40.990]  I will be publishing both the original and final drafts of the agreement before the 1st of December 2002.
[27:41.730 --> 27:48.830]  Please bring to my attention any facts or relevant information that I may have overlooked regarding my intent to publish the agreement.
[27:48.830 --> 27:57.470]  I will refrain from publishing it prior to the 1st of November 2002 in order time to allow you to review any relevant facts and contact me.
[27:58.450 --> 28:09.970]  And, basically, what I'm doing here is cover my ass by saying, very simply, I think you screwed up, and I think your screw-up allows me to do this.
[28:10.190 --> 28:16.510]  But, just in case I'm wrong, I'm going to give you time to explain to me why I'm misunderstanding it.
[28:17.490 --> 28:19.470]  Otherwise, I'm just going to go ahead with this.
[28:19.470 --> 28:25.870]  Their response was, it's your fault for not reminding us to send you the check.
[28:27.870 --> 28:30.250]  Which they did send me promptly after that.
[28:30.890 --> 28:34.510]  My response was to deposit the check and post the agreements.
[28:45.000 --> 28:48.180]  Now, just in case, like I said, CSX, they're not a household name.
[28:48.280 --> 28:49.900]  A lot of people might not have heard of them.
[28:50.100 --> 28:51.860]  Probably most of you have not heard of them.
[28:53.500 --> 29:01.620]  Just to point out, just to demonstrate how well-connected and how big a company it is.
[29:02.260 --> 29:05.600]  I just want to go over a couple more things before I take questions.
[29:06.860 --> 29:10.020]  Just to demonstrate that they are no joke of a company.
[29:13.180 --> 29:16.240]  And, how many of you have heard of Carlisle Group?
[29:17.140 --> 29:20.080]  Okay, most of you who know of them know of them.
[29:20.200 --> 29:20.980]  Most of you haven't.
[29:21.120 --> 29:23.420]  Just think of them kind of like...
[29:23.420 --> 29:26.160]  They kind of make Halliburton look like the Girl Scouts.
[29:28.320 --> 29:35.340]  At the time that I was having my fun with all this legalese, is the former...
[29:35.340 --> 29:37.480]  Actually, shortly after this went down.
[29:38.940 --> 29:57.940]  The former head honcho of CSX Corporation, on January 2003, was appointed by resident George Bush to head the Treasury Department, the U.S.
[29:58.260 --> 29:58.680]  Treasury Department.
[29:59.080 --> 30:01.820]  So, the guy is not poorly connected.
[30:03.240 --> 30:16.360]  And, connecting some dots here, about a month after that press release, there was a press release from Carlisle Group, that they had purchased CSX's shipping lines.
[30:16.500 --> 30:17.420]  That's all their big boats.
[30:19.800 --> 30:22.340]  And, that was for a price of about $300 million.
[30:23.560 --> 30:25.200]  Now, this went down, of course...
[30:25.200 --> 30:32.940]  This press release came out about a month after this guy, John Snow, was promoted to head the Treasury Department.
[30:33.080 --> 30:37.880]  And there's not too many promotions you can get when you're the head honcho of a Fortune 500 company, but that's one of them.
[30:39.620 --> 30:49.060]  So, a month after he leaves, it becomes public knowledge that CSX sold off their shipping lines to Carlisle Group for $300 million.
[30:49.400 --> 30:59.660]  And, just over a year later, the Carlisle Group sells CSX's shipping lines for $650 million.
[31:01.200 --> 31:07.440]  So, somebody made out pretty good on this deal, but it sure wasn't the company or the shareholders.
[31:08.380 --> 31:15.020]  might have been... and I'm not a conspiracy theorist, so I'll leave this to anyone else to pursue on their own.
[31:15.300 --> 31:32.480]  But, some might suspect that the former head of CEO helped Carlisle Group make a $350 million profit off of the CSX lines, and might have been rewarded by heading the Treasury Department.
[31:32.760 --> 31:34.620]  That might have been part of his compensation package.
[31:35.640 --> 31:39.920]  But, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, so I'm not going to suggest that that's what actually happened.
[31:42.520 --> 31:46.160]  Do we have any questions about any of this stuff?
[31:59.260 --> 32:02.920]  The question is, how do I avoid a lawsuit for libel?
[32:03.080 --> 32:06.600]  And, is there a fine line between parity and libel?
[32:06.780 --> 32:11.060]  And, there's definitely a fine line between parity and libel.
[32:13.280 --> 32:15.480]  I'm not sure...
[32:15.480 --> 32:20.960]  It's something that they, from day one, they've held over my head.
[32:21.640 --> 32:23.320]  We're going to sue you for libel.
[32:24.400 --> 32:29.400]  In addition to trademark infringement, in addition to making your life miserable, we're going to sue you for libel.
[32:29.600 --> 32:34.440]  The problem with suing somebody for libel is discovery.
[32:35.820 --> 32:41.600]  If I say something that somebody doesn't want to hear, yes, they can sue me for libel.
[32:42.420 --> 32:47.740]  If the something that they said isn't true, they'll probably win.
[32:48.020 --> 32:56.520]  However, if the something that I say is true, and they just don't want to hear it, what that does is it opens up the legal process of discovery.
[32:57.820 --> 33:05.100]  Which essentially means, the short version of that is, I get to go through their books looking for anything to substantiate my claim.
[33:06.660 --> 33:15.460]  So, if somebody posts something on my website, aside from the fact that I'm not posting it, I disclaim responsibility for what other people post on my website.
[33:17.140 --> 33:32.620]  But if other people post something on my website, that they would consider to be libel, that they consider to be libelous, that would allow me, in a lawsuit, they sue me, I can then go through their records and substantiate that claim.
[33:33.960 --> 33:43.400]  But, it's a lot of bad press for whoever initiates a libel lawsuit, because it reeks of free speech implications.
[33:43.400 --> 33:50.140]  And it's typically something that a lot of companies are going to try to avoid, especially if it's true.
[33:51.720 --> 33:53.920]  It's when something is...
[33:53.920 --> 34:01.460]  And even if it's borderline true, they will avoid suing you for libel, but they'll often threaten to sue for libel.
[34:05.750 --> 34:12.610]  The fact that they haven't sued me, according to my own theory, substantiates the bulk of what's posted there.
[34:17.200 --> 34:24.120]  You say you disclaim anything that you say, anybody else says on your website, but there have been many stories on websites where people have done the same disclaimers.
[34:24.540 --> 34:24.840]  I mean, sued.
[34:25.000 --> 34:27.160]  I don't know if there's no story of raise-the-fist.com away.
[34:28.200 --> 34:29.840]  It didn't seem to work very well to detect him.
[34:30.740 --> 34:32.440]  It's been, what, 15 months to get a little bit of that?
[34:32.680 --> 34:33.500]  Yeah, I'm not...
[34:33.500 --> 34:34.440]  Yeah, raise the fist.
[34:34.520 --> 34:38.440]  It didn't work out too well for him, as far as trying to disclaim the content of his website.
[34:38.440 --> 34:43.320]  But my understanding of his website was that he was publishing the content.
[34:43.680 --> 34:47.160]  He wasn't operating a blog where other people posted content.
[34:49.160 --> 34:51.620]  There was also a lot of stuff...
[34:51.620 --> 34:58.740]  I mean, they screwed him really hard, completely out of proportion to the website he was running, the way I understand it.
[35:01.380 --> 35:06.200]  But for me, the primary draw to this website is the blog.
[35:06.200 --> 35:08.560]  And I figured, you know, I used to work there.
[35:08.880 --> 35:12.300]  I only worked in one job position, actually two job positions.
[35:13.800 --> 35:17.440]  And really, how much of a story can I tell that's going to bring people to the website?
[35:17.740 --> 35:22.900]  Whereas if I operate it as a blog, other people are going to post, other people are going to vent.
[35:23.900 --> 35:25.260]  That's going to be a big draw.
[35:25.560 --> 35:27.400]  And that's going to get people to the site.
[35:28.180 --> 35:31.660]  And that has worked as a format.
[35:31.720 --> 35:38.800]  And I recommend if anyone does any kind of a suck site that you want to draw people to, I definitely recommend doing it as a blog.
[35:39.340 --> 35:45.280]  Because all the other people out there who hate whatever it is you hate are going to have a lot more stories than you.
[35:45.700 --> 35:47.540]  And you can post on there too, I suppose.
[35:48.340 --> 35:48.940]  Originally,
[35:53.080 --> 35:55.300]  the Chesapeake and Southern Railway.
[35:55.480 --> 36:00.500]  So the references to the clan and the slave labor are probably true.
[36:00.700 --> 36:04.020]  And if you haven't researched their records, you probably can go back.
[36:05.440 --> 36:06.040]  Yes.
[36:06.480 --> 36:08.860]  CSX was formed, I think, in 1980.
[36:08.860 --> 36:10.900]  There was a merger of other railroads.
[36:11.000 --> 36:16.540]  Primarily the Chesapeake and the Seaboard railroads.
[36:18.240 --> 36:21.600]  And it's funny that if you actually trace back the history...
[36:21.600 --> 36:29.660]  And the history of railroad corporations is a history of corporate mergers and everyone getting buddy and gobbling each other up.
[36:31.000 --> 36:37.280]  And you can definitely go back through the history and find that it's actually...
[36:37.280 --> 36:42.260]  One of the people I know who's a big train fan, he looked at the picture.
[36:43.200 --> 36:45.840]  I told him where the picture was taken, when the picture was taken.
[36:45.840 --> 36:46.940]  He said, you know what?
[36:47.020 --> 36:49.480]  It was in Virginia in 1830-something.
[36:49.660 --> 36:50.460]  He says, you know what?
[36:50.460 --> 36:53.620]  That probably is part of CSX's railroad right now.
[36:54.020 --> 37:05.320]  And actually, a few months after they filed the suit against me, they had suit filed against them, one of two or three other companies, that were sued for slave reparations.
[37:05.440 --> 37:08.340]  They were sued in civil court for slave reparations.
[37:08.540 --> 37:17.560]  And basically, the basis of that was that the fortunes amassed by the corporations were built on the backs of slaves that have never been reimbursed properly.
[37:24.520 --> 37:26.880]  If not libel, would they be able to get me on slander?
[37:27.580 --> 37:29.460]  I think the line there is...
[37:29.460 --> 37:32.520]  It's pretty much the same thing between libel and slander.
[37:35.000 --> 37:40.400]  My understanding of it, and I'm not sure if there's any lawyers in here, is that libel is basically the legal term for slander.
[37:40.580 --> 37:42.340]  But other than that, I don't think there's a difference.
[37:43.760 --> 37:44.820]  Slander is spoken aloud.
[37:45.200 --> 37:45.280]  OK.
[37:47.180 --> 37:49.740]  So, whatever I do on a website is probably not slander.
[37:49.860 --> 37:50.900]  It's probably libel then.
[37:53.000 --> 37:54.160]  If it were libelous.
[37:55.680 --> 37:57.200]  Follow-up to your blog comment...
[37:58.080 --> 38:02.820]  What would you do with the subpoena for turning on the records of all your posters that you don't like what so and so says?
[38:03.020 --> 38:03.380]  OK.
[38:03.520 --> 38:05.240]  What would I do if I were served with a subpo-...
[38:05.240 --> 38:05.860]  That's excellent.
[38:05.980 --> 38:11.900]  What if I were served with a subpoena to turn over records of who is posting things from where?
[38:12.880 --> 38:18.460]  And also that gets into another area where I offer free email, vanity email addresses.
[38:18.480 --> 38:22.560]  So if you want your name at csxsucks.com, you can set that up.
[38:22.720 --> 38:23.980]  People can send you mail there.
[38:24.000 --> 38:24.980]  It'll forward to you.
[38:25.120 --> 38:28.320]  So you can receive mail anonymously through the website.
[38:28.720 --> 38:31.380]  And again, what if I got a subpoena for that?
[38:32.680 --> 38:35.020]  The first thing I do is pick up the phone and call EFF.
[38:36.280 --> 38:39.180]  And start figuring it out from there.
[38:39.300 --> 38:47.880]  Now, if somebody posted something on there like, hey, let's kill the president, then obviously within 24 hours I'm going to have Secret Service knocking on my door.
[38:48.060 --> 38:50.020]  They're going to want to know where that post came from.
[38:50.500 --> 38:55.980]  And if somebody's stupid enough to post something like that on my website, I'll be happy to turn over their IP address.
[38:56.400 --> 38:58.440]  And it becomes their problem at that point.
[39:00.260 --> 39:10.560]  Now, for other types of things, like say, hypothetically, let's say there's a trade secret or something else, where they just come after me with probably more likely a civil suit.
[39:11.440 --> 39:18.380]  And I would have to judge it on the merits of the complaint and how it was written up, how quick I'm going to respond or how slow I'm going to drag my feet.
[39:19.540 --> 39:25.040]  I could look at it... they could request that I give them all of my log files.
[39:26.440 --> 39:31.780]  Or they might just say, we want to know where this post came from or where does this email address forward to.
[39:33.840 --> 39:40.520]  And then again, it might depend on the nature of what was posted, how... whether I'm going to drag my feet on it or whether I'm going to jump on it.
[39:41.580 --> 39:51.220]  So, I mean, you know, again, like hypothetically, any website, if you get a... somebody posts a death threat to the president and the Secret Service comes knocking on your door, I wouldn't recommend dragging your feet.
[39:51.920 --> 39:55.980]  I would recommend giving them what they want and sending them on their way.
[39:57.420 --> 40:05.320]  Now, if somebody says, we want all of your records versus we want this specific record, that's going to be a very relevant factor.
[40:06.440 --> 40:16.060]  And also, as far as I know, I'm not under any obligation to keep log files after any certain amount of time.
[40:16.240 --> 40:22.340]  On the server, because the site gets so much hits, I blast them away after every month.
[40:22.340 --> 40:24.480]  I do archive them off the server.
[40:25.760 --> 40:28.980]  But how far back I go, I probably shouldn't mention publicly.
[40:29.920 --> 40:34.000]  Because that will give me plausible deniability, just in case I do get served for that information.
[40:34.860 --> 40:40.080]  But on the server, the weblogs don't go back more than... any more than a calendar month.
[40:42.450 --> 40:47.250]  Question, just to make sure, since you seem to be dispensing advice here.
[40:48.470 --> 41:03.370]  Some of the communications, especially if you're doing the web-based vanity emails, stored electronic communications, do you know if we could be held liable for turning over stored electronic communications without the right paperwork?
[41:03.830 --> 41:10.490]  As of now, I haven't... can I be turned... can I be held accountable for turning over stored electronic communications?
[41:10.690 --> 41:20.830]  So if somebody has an anonymous email address with me, and somebody wants to... I'm assuming you're talking about under the Patriot Act, where the FBI can request that information without a warrant?
[41:21.930 --> 41:24.230]  Or... you mean if I'm snooping in somebody's email?
[41:25.550 --> 41:26.870]  You can't snoop in somebody's email.
[41:26.870 --> 41:30.610]  As of now, I can snoop in somebody's email legally, because I own the mail server.
[41:31.790 --> 41:35.670]  That was... that was ruled on within the last couple of weeks.
[41:36.790 --> 41:38.850]  By one of the courts of appeal.
[41:39.090 --> 41:39.450]  Yes.
[41:39.590 --> 41:40.890]  But not in all circuits.
[41:41.030 --> 41:41.250]  Correct.
[41:42.030 --> 41:42.410]  Law
[41:45.730 --> 41:57.390]  still makes a big distinction between those kinds of communications and other kinds of records that you keep, some of which could be attended with a subpoena, some of which require a warrant.
[41:57.750 --> 41:59.310]  If you turn over a warrant,
[42:02.700 --> 42:05.020]  you could subject yourself to some liability.
[42:05.320 --> 42:05.840]  Yes.
[42:05.980 --> 42:07.360]  To the person who's mailed it.
[42:07.600 --> 42:07.900]  Yes.
[42:08.400 --> 42:18.520]  He's pointing out that there's some types of information that I'm obligated to turn over with a subpoena, and there's some types of information that I'm obligated to turn over only with a warrant signed by a judge.
[42:19.740 --> 42:21.680]  Subpoena does not have to be signed by a judge.
[42:24.020 --> 42:25.780]  And... how do I tell the line?
[42:25.900 --> 42:31.080]  Basically, I don't... off the top of my head, I'm not sure which information is covered by which rule.
[42:31.780 --> 42:40.580]  Again, if I ever do get served with any kind of paperwork requesting that, pick up the phone, call EFF, and have them help me out with that.
[42:42.560 --> 42:52.440]  One of the things, though, with the anonymous email is, as long as their mail is being delivered, it's only sitting on the server for as long as it takes for QMail to deliver it.
[42:52.700 --> 42:55.300]  So, the message isn't being parked on the server.
[42:55.600 --> 42:59.740]  It's going into the server, going to their server, and it's gone.
[43:01.080 --> 43:05.380]  So, that's to the extent that I don't have to worry about that.
[43:05.500 --> 43:10.260]  And, of course, I do use this TLS QMail on the server.
[43:10.440 --> 43:16.920]  So, all inbound mail, inbound and outbound mail, is going to be encrypted automatically between hops.
[43:18.840 --> 43:19.740]  More questions?
[43:20.380 --> 43:20.420]  Yeah?
[43:20.580 --> 43:27.730]  For different dollars on time, did you have a backup plan for getting out of the agreement?
[43:29.710 --> 43:30.310]  No.
[43:30.650 --> 43:35.810]  If CSX had paid me on time, would I have had a backup plan for getting out of it?
[43:37.950 --> 43:39.990]  There's no backup plan for getting out of the agreement.
[43:40.150 --> 43:43.910]  The agreement in its final form I like, except for the confidentiality clause.
[43:44.050 --> 43:45.810]  So, that's the only part I was trying to get out of.
[43:46.050 --> 43:48.550]  I didn't have a backup plan for getting out of it.
[43:48.990 --> 43:56.910]  And I was actually surprised that they had let me slip in the clause that they have 30 days to pay me.
[43:57.130 --> 44:03.550]  What that said to me is that they didn't read it before signing the final draft, because that was done at the last minute.
[44:04.430 --> 44:08.210]  We weren't working on that paragraph where we were talking about them paying me.
[44:08.310 --> 44:09.650]  We hadn't worked on that in a while.
[44:09.810 --> 44:12.530]  So, I think they just kind of skipped over it and didn't notice it.
[44:13.410 --> 44:18.830]  And I was just confident, having dealt with the company, I was confident that they don't pay things on time.
[44:19.310 --> 44:21.450]  And I know that that's going to get overlooked.
[44:21.590 --> 44:24.970]  And I know that they promised to pay things within 30 days.
[44:25.130 --> 44:25.790]  It's not going to happen.
[44:25.790 --> 44:27.830]  I was very confident of that.
[44:28.150 --> 44:40.050]  Also, when they sent out the cease and desist letter, they sent copies to the hosting company... actually, the guy running the server, who is the hosting company.
[44:40.490 --> 44:46.630]  And they sent out cease and desist letters to the ISPs that were hosting the name servers for it.
[44:46.770 --> 44:56.190]  You know, pretty much anyone who might have any remote involvement, They sent out cease and desist letters too, obviously in an attempt to scare people into pressuring me to shut it down.
[44:57.350 --> 45:07.330]  They were supposed to have, after the agreement, they were supposed to have sent letters out to all of those people apologizing.
[45:07.690 --> 45:19.350]  And the final agreement has, I think it has somewhat of the form of the letter that basically says, we apologize for sending out this letter, everything has been amicably resolved, you know, don't worry about it.
[45:19.470 --> 45:25.610]  And they were also supposed to send me a list of everyone that they sent it to, even though I knew everyone who they sent it to.
[45:26.850 --> 45:37.590]  And I pointed out in my letter to them, when I said that they were late in paying me, I said that you're also in... you've also breached the contract by not satisfying that.
[45:37.690 --> 45:41.870]  You haven't sent out any letters and you haven't sent me the list of who you originally sent the letters to.
[45:42.330 --> 45:43.910]  That went completely ignored.
[45:44.170 --> 45:50.730]  They sent me the check, but to this day, they have not yet sent me a list of who got a cease and desist letter.
[45:50.930 --> 45:53.770]  And they have not sent out any apology letters.
[45:54.050 --> 45:59.270]  So they're still, to this day, actively in breach of the agreement.
[46:00.010 --> 46:02.950]  And I was just confident that they were going to screw it up.
[46:03.070 --> 46:04.070]  And they sure did.
[46:04.430 --> 46:05.050]  Do you know about
[46:09.710 --> 46:10.350]  Donnie Hanson?
[46:10.510 --> 46:12.270]  Do you have to use that as a defense?
[46:12.470 --> 46:13.950]  You've got to pursue them on that.
[46:15.370 --> 46:18.330]  Oh, if I was interested, I would pursue them on that.
[46:18.530 --> 46:31.030]  But since I know everyone who they sent the letter to, and since I've... everyone who they sent the letter to, I'm either on good terms with or they're out of business, it's irrelevant at this point.
[46:32.270 --> 46:34.310]  So, it's not something that I'm pursuing.
[46:34.310 --> 46:41.170]  I'm just letting them be in breach so I can brag about them still being in breach two years later.
[46:41.830 --> 46:43.150]  There's a question over here.
[46:50.110 --> 46:51.630]  I do have the exhibits.
[46:51.830 --> 46:58.970]  Actually, the exhibit D that they were specifying for the original logo, that does happen to be the logo that's still on the website.
[47:01.010 --> 47:09.050]  And I have a black and white version of it here, which I am apparently obligated to display.
[47:11.670 --> 47:18.510]  And some of the agreements didn't translate too well into HTML, so they're not available on the website.
[47:18.510 --> 47:23.610]  But you do pretty much get the gist of what they were going for there.
[47:24.990 --> 47:29.450]  And all the... they're basically just the same thing with different fonts, different colors.
[47:30.670 --> 47:33.310]  What did they think they were getting out of this agreement?
[47:40.210 --> 47:45.990]  I think what they were trying to do, looking back on this, they tried to scare me with a cease and desist letter.
[47:46.890 --> 47:48.210]  That failed miserably.
[47:48.710 --> 47:53.350]  Then they tried to scare me by filing a lawsuit against me in federal court.
[47:54.190 --> 47:55.530]  That failed miserably.
[47:55.530 --> 47:59.410]  And both of those steps, I think, were just to shut...
[48:00.550 --> 48:05.290]  I think their goal was to have me look at the situation and say, Oh, I'm screwed.
[48:05.310 --> 48:07.610]  I better just shut this down and give them what they want.
[48:09.610 --> 48:11.610]  And every step of the way, I just said, Screw you.
[48:11.730 --> 48:12.210]  Give me more.
[48:14.830 --> 48:17.630]  So, I think, at the time...
[48:18.630 --> 48:21.910]  Now, if they got the agreement the way that they originally did it...
[48:21.910 --> 48:26.290]  And again, I don't think they were planning on having this bounce back and forth over the course of a year.
[48:27.010 --> 48:34.410]  If they had the agreement signed the way it was originally written, they would still be able to sue me for operating the new website.
[48:34.570 --> 48:37.610]  They would still be able to file a cease and desist letter against me.
[48:37.650 --> 48:40.350]  They would still be able to harass me through all different legal channels.
[48:41.410 --> 48:47.310]  And basically, under the final agreement, they're not allowed to harass me, is what it comes down to.
[48:47.490 --> 48:50.350]  Is that they acknowledge that what I'm doing is legitimate.
[48:51.470 --> 48:54.390]  They specifically acknowledge that it's a legitimate parody.
[48:55.170 --> 48:58.890]  And that they are not attempting to infringe on my free speech rights.
[48:59.710 --> 49:03.430]  So, I think the agreement from the start...
[49:05.270 --> 49:07.750]  They were just kind of hoping I'd go along with it.
[49:07.810 --> 49:10.670]  Just to get this, you know, get the lawsuit thrown out.
[49:11.730 --> 49:20.750]  But, again, the way that they filed the lawsuit and wrote the complaint, I looked at it and laughed.
[49:21.350 --> 49:23.590]  I'm sure they looked at it and said, oh shit.
[49:24.210 --> 49:30.470]  And from there, I just said, all I have to do is negotiate this on my terms.
[49:30.470 --> 49:36.610]  Because if this complaint goes before a judge, they're screwed.
[49:38.190 --> 49:45.970]  And after a few weeks and months into this, I started saying to myself, they must know this by now.
[49:47.290 --> 49:54.350]  And the one thing that they might have been able to do at that point would have been maybe to withdraw the suit.
[49:54.690 --> 49:56.170]  You know, a request to have the suit dismissed.
[49:56.850 --> 50:01.310]  At which point, I could have petitioned the court to have it dismissed with prejudice.
[50:01.810 --> 50:04.230]  Meaning that they can't submit the suit again.
[50:04.230 --> 50:08.690]  So, they're stuck in the situation where they filed a suit.
[50:09.030 --> 50:14.470]  The suit is... there's no... there's little substance... little or no substance to the suit.
[50:14.730 --> 50:16.690]  The only way out is to negotiate it.
[50:16.990 --> 50:20.210]  And they don't want it to go before a judge more than I don't.
[50:20.570 --> 50:22.690]  So, let's negotiate on my terms.
[50:22.990 --> 50:27.070]  And if that takes a year of bouncing the agreement back and forth, I've got that time.
[50:31.180 --> 50:34.840]  Thanks to the EFF, my out-of-pocket expenses were quite minimal.
[50:35.420 --> 50:40.980]  I think I had about $400 of out-of-pocket expenses, which was mostly research.
[50:41.320 --> 50:48.620]  They found me an excellent law firm in San Francisco who handled the bulk of the work for me.
[50:50.280 --> 51:02.520]  And being that I'm somewhat... do law somewhat as a hobby, when I first touched base with the lawyer who was working on the case, I said, you know, I still want to have a hands-on with this.
[51:02.760 --> 51:04.420]  So, you know, you're the lawyer.
[51:04.420 --> 51:05.920]  You're going to be signing the paperwork.
[51:06.080 --> 51:07.300]  Everything goes on your letterhead.
[51:07.580 --> 51:10.780]  But I don't want to take a hands-off approach to this.
[51:10.900 --> 51:13.100]  So, don't do anything without letting me know.
[51:13.280 --> 51:15.880]  I'm going to let you know how I want things to run here.
[51:15.960 --> 51:17.500]  And he had no problem with that at all.
[51:17.640 --> 51:20.780]  You know, he didn't feel like I was stepping on his toes, which was great.
[51:22.420 --> 51:25.420]  And together, we had all this stuff worked out.
[51:25.900 --> 51:32.980]  I'm sure some lawyers probably wouldn't like somebody who's not a lawyer thinking that they know what an agreement should say.
[51:33.180 --> 51:43.040]  You know, I'm sure there's a lot of law firms out there that the first thing they're going to say is, they gave you an agreement, you better sign this quick, because you don't want to, you know, you don't want this to go to court.
[51:43.680 --> 51:48.220]  Whereas, you know, I explained to my guy the way I was reading into it.
[51:48.220 --> 51:54.460]  And I said, because I read through it, it's, you know, it's funny stuff, but it is in English.
[51:56.740 --> 51:59.800]  And I read through it and I said, this is my understanding of it.
[51:59.860 --> 52:03.100]  And based on my understanding of it, they've screwed themselves already.
[52:03.340 --> 52:06.700]  So, let's just go through, let's do it the way I want it done.
[52:08.740 --> 52:17.200]  And so, of that $400, half of it was the $200 they paid me back for the domain names that I was no longer wanted or needed or was using.
[52:19.560 --> 52:21.200]  I think I have time for one more question.
[52:24.360 --> 52:28.920]  Could I also talk about the foreign powers that were called in the Carlisle Group?
[52:29.500 --> 52:31.220]  And who's that awarding that company?
[52:32.920 --> 52:37.100]  As far as Carlisle Group goes, that's probably just too far off topic.
[52:37.640 --> 52:42.620]  So, and it's just not something, you know, as of yet, I'm not running CarlisleSucks.org.
[52:43.280 --> 52:44.720]  I'm not sure if anyone is.
[52:45.740 --> 52:48.700]  But that's just not something that I've pursued.
[52:50.760 --> 52:51.480]  All right.
[52:51.620 --> 52:52.960]  So, thanks, everybody, for coming out.