[00:00.540 --> 00:06.980] The first thing to remember is that if you ever run into trouble or press the wrong button, you can always press the start key to go back. [00:09.480 --> 00:16.760] One of the movie phones is a free service that provides you with movie showtimes for all theaters and the ability to purchase advanced tickets for many theaters. [00:17.200 --> 00:19.220] First thing, I'm sorry, you have made an [00:27.530 --> 00:30.650] following is a listing of the top movies and why they've been given their ratings. [00:30.810 --> 00:33.650] To interrupt, I'm sorry, you have made an invalid selection. [00:33.850 --> 00:34.610] Please try again. [00:35.110 --> 00:38.250] If you know the name of the movie you'd like to see, press one now. [00:38.250 --> 00:41.530] To browse through current movie titles and previews, press two now. [00:41.750 --> 00:46.730] For information on a particular theater, press pound plus the theater express code or press three now. 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[01:28.330 --> 01:36.510] Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars is playing exclusively at Film Forum, West Houston Street, West of 6th Avenue. [01:36.930 --> 01:45.030] Today's remaining showtimes are 440, 630, 820, and 1010. [01:45.030 --> 01:47.930] To select another movie, press three. [01:48.310 --> 01:52.470] Or to repeat or change your previous selection, press the star key now. [01:57.580 --> 01:59.760] You have exceeded the time limit. [02:00.000 --> 02:02.440] To select another movie, press three. [02:02.820 --> 02:07.000] Or to repeat or change your previous selection, press the star key now. [02:08.040 --> 02:09.880] If your selection is... [02:09.880 --> 02:14.560] Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars, press one. [02:14.560 --> 02:17.820] Thirteen conversations about one thing. [02:18.140 --> 02:19.100] Press two. [02:20.080 --> 02:21.100] Nine queens. [02:21.560 --> 02:22.460] Press three. [02:23.540 --> 02:25.200] Dr. Doolittle, too. 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[03:29.300 --> 03:32.940] Please enter the first three letters of the movie title now. [03:33.880 --> 03:34.480] That [03:38.440 --> 03:40.160] selection is not in our records. [03:41.260 --> 03:44.740] Please enter the first three letters of the movie title now. [03:46.320 --> 03:51.720] If the movie title contains less than three letters, or if the first three letters contain a QRC... [03:51.720 --> 03:52.960] The first three letters. [03:54.060 --> 03:55.400] The first three letters. [03:56.220 --> 04:01.320] That selection is not in our records. [04:02.660 --> 04:05.920] Please enter the first three letters of the movie title now. [04:53.590 --> 04:55.430] Can you all hear us? [04:57.790 --> 04:58.770] Ah, that's why. [05:00.610 --> 05:01.070] Okay. [05:05.590 --> 05:06.650] Okay, I'll start. [05:06.850 --> 05:12.830] My name is Avi Friedman, and this is Ryan Lackey, and we're from Haven Co., although Ryan is most actively involved. [05:13.090 --> 05:19.410] And I think we're invited to come and talk about... a little bit about the history and about the current status of what things are going on. [05:20.030 --> 05:22.990] So we'll take questions during and after. [05:23.150 --> 05:25.870] We have about 20 slides, including some pictures. [05:26.510 --> 05:30.630] And I think we'll try to address most of the common questions during the presentation. [05:30.810 --> 05:38.620] But again, people can feel free to stop us, so... So this is Sealand. [05:38.860 --> 05:45.220] It's a platform in the North Sea that has existed for quite some time and is now being used for a secure location. [05:48.360 --> 05:51.300] The... basically, just a brief update of what we're doing for people that already know. [05:51.540 --> 05:52.500] We're now profitable. [05:52.740 --> 05:55.000] We're one of the very few profitable dot com companies left. [05:55.820 --> 05:58.660] We're very cost conscious, which is related to why we're profitable. [05:59.220 --> 06:02.660] We haven't really had any negative legal challenges where we've lost. [06:03.100 --> 06:04.520] We're working on some bigger ones. [06:05.000 --> 06:06.260] We have good connectivity. [06:06.600 --> 06:07.300] We're trying to get more. [06:07.560 --> 06:08.880] We're trying to get faster, cheaper bandwidth. [06:09.220 --> 06:10.620] Always a common process. [06:11.680 --> 06:13.560] We have gaming and payment system customers. [06:13.920 --> 06:15.920] We need more customers of different kinds. [06:16.140 --> 06:18.520] And we're out of the startup phase, and now we're growing pretty steadily. [06:19.240 --> 06:20.400] That's just a brief update. [06:20.560 --> 06:22.360] I want to elaborate on that shared hosting and email. [06:22.600 --> 06:22.940] Oh, yeah. [06:23.100 --> 06:27.860] So we need shared hosting and email and other Data Haven type applications, but I'll go into that later. [06:29.180 --> 06:34.680] So basically, for anyone who hasn't heard about us or who hasn't heard the whole thing, why did we do this in the first place? [06:34.720 --> 06:37.180] Why did we go to the middle of the North Sea to set up a data haven? [06:37.840 --> 06:44.440] Basically, we see a continued trend of regulation around the world, specifically as it applies to the Internet, but really everything. [06:45.340 --> 06:48.140] Every time there's a new technology, the government doesn't understand it. [06:48.200 --> 06:49.780] They leave it alone because they don't understand it. [06:49.900 --> 06:53.060] It gets to a certain critical size, and then they start regulating it. [06:53.200 --> 06:54.140] This happened with radio. [06:54.340 --> 06:56.500] There was no radio regulation in the 1800s, of course. [06:56.700 --> 07:00.140] There was no telephone regulations until it got pretty commercialized. [07:00.660 --> 07:01.780] No TV regulations. [07:01.920 --> 07:06.040] No Internet regulations, really, until it started to become the web and really popular with people. [07:07.020 --> 07:16.480] And, I mean, Avi and I both used the Internet before it was regulated, and we want to go... We really liked that period of the Internet before it was regulated, and we'd like to see that happen... We'd like to see that be the way it continues. [07:16.700 --> 07:22.480] And really, none of the other technologies have the ability to defend themselves from regulation, whereas the Internet is unique in that it does. [07:23.460 --> 07:30.160] Specifically, I think CDA and RIP were the things that were the biggest impetus to doing this when it first started. [07:30.660 --> 07:31.720] DMCA didn't exist. [07:31.720 --> 07:39.120] Also, CALEA, the phone switch thing, and the crypto regulations, which were a big, long fight, had just been sort of favorably resolved when we were starting. [07:39.620 --> 07:46.900] And we also want to provide an example to other countries of how you can have a very minimal regulatory scheme for technology and have it work very well. [07:47.420 --> 07:49.140] And maybe other countries will imitate. [07:49.360 --> 07:57.800] Our goal, if we're completely successful, is that other countries will copy what we do, and we will then go out of business or we'll have to compete in a level playing field, and that would be great. [08:00.120 --> 08:14.720] And basically, all of this minimal regulation philosophy boils down to having a very simple, acceptable use policy, enforcing it uniformly, enforcing it very strictly, but having it be very minimal and very upfront, and it's just no spam, no spamvertised URLs, [08:15.020 --> 08:16.280] no anything like spam. [08:17.040 --> 08:19.480] We can be pretty precise on that, but no spam. [08:19.720 --> 08:26.000] No attacking other people's machines from our IP space, because we don't want to be tracked down and persecuted. [08:26.220 --> 08:27.320] And no child pornography. [08:27.560 --> 08:32.040] And those are pretty minimal regulations, and as long as you stick within those, we're totally fine. [08:33.060 --> 08:36.200] Many things are not in this acceptable use policy, and that's because they're okay. [08:37.460 --> 08:50.220] In the background about Sealand, the fort that you saw, is that it was constructed in World War II in 1944, basically on a big concrete barge, with the two pillars in this top deck, with two 3.7-inch guns, all sorts of... like an anti-aircraft fortress, [08:50.440 --> 08:52.000] built as a pre-made unit. [08:52.360 --> 08:59.420] There were about seven of them made, taken out into the North Sea, and then dropped off with like 400 Royal Navy personnel, stationed on board. [09:00.020 --> 09:03.060] And they shot down like 300 bombers and fighters during the war. [09:03.220 --> 09:04.260] They were quite successful. [09:04.640 --> 09:10.920] And they then, in 1945, after the war, decided to just sort of leave them there, thinking that'll go away pretty soon. [09:11.640 --> 09:17.220] And unfortunately, they were in international waters, so it was actually illegal for the U.K. to have done this. [09:17.860 --> 09:21.360] And they did it anyway, and nobody was really going to complain. [09:21.500 --> 09:22.940] They were happy that they'd won the war and everything else. [09:24.040 --> 09:27.400] So yeah, at the time it was a three nautical mile limit, but it was international waters. [09:27.940 --> 09:32.720] They left these things just sort of sitting there, and they were empty. [09:33.080 --> 09:37.420] So people threw... at the same time, there was a restriction on radio broadcast in the U.K. [09:37.580 --> 09:42.120] Basically, it was only the BBC, only commercial radio... the only radio station was the BBC. [09:42.280 --> 09:43.060] No commercial radio. [09:43.460 --> 09:46.960] They had maybe 30 minutes of pop music a day. [09:47.320 --> 09:50.460] Everything else was classical, 40s music, whatever else. [09:50.780 --> 09:52.300] And this was pretty unpopular. [09:53.020 --> 10:02.940] So there were people trying to do pirate radio, which was really big in the 60s, where they would do commercial broadcast, they'd take advertising, they would do... they'd do all sorts of... pretty much free radio. [10:03.500 --> 10:12.220] And they would do this originally from, I believe, the U.K. from mainland, then from ships, and then the U.K. passed some broadcasting regulations, so you couldn't do it from ships. [10:12.400 --> 10:16.060] So people started to go to these platforms, and started to do pirate radio broadcasts from those. [10:16.720 --> 10:19.440] And it was pretty successful for a while. [10:19.600 --> 10:22.420] They never actually did pirate radio from Sealand itself, they did it from another one. [10:22.860 --> 10:32.760] And that was okay, but the pirate radio industry really had very interesting history, and it ended up not being all that successful after a certain point, because part of it was good. [10:32.960 --> 10:35.500] They opened up commercial radio in the U.K., and that made it okay. [10:37.060 --> 10:48.560] But then some of the pirate radio people were left with a lot of experience operating technical businesses from ships in the middle of the North Sea from platforms, and they saw this nice abandoned one that was even further out and was in international waters. [10:49.160 --> 10:57.600] So Roy Bates, who's one of the pirate radio people, also the youngest major in the British Army, went and basically occupied the place. [10:57.740 --> 11:01.020] It was abandoned territory, he saw it, decided, I'm gonna populate this. [11:01.140 --> 11:05.740] He went there, his wife went there, his son Michael went there, and they decided to live there. [11:06.640 --> 11:10.680] And they lived there from, I think, Christmas Eve 1966 until the present. [11:11.240 --> 11:13.680] And that's pretty much how it went. [11:14.320 --> 11:17.700] They did this, originally just occupying it, just as territory. [11:18.120 --> 11:26.780] Then they did some research and saw, oh, we actually meet all the requirements for a state, at least on paper, and decided they would try to pursue this angle. [11:27.380 --> 11:37.600] And the next slide is... they did some research, and there are other projects, basically small areas that have decided to become countries, micro-nation projects. [11:37.820 --> 11:39.920] There are really two categories of these. [11:40.100 --> 11:45.960] There are the ones that are smaller parts of big countries, or ex-colonies, or everything else, which have been relatively successful. [11:46.120 --> 11:51.800] There's been, I guess the Vatican's a special case, but there's like East Timor, lots of places that actually become states, and they're very small. [11:52.040 --> 11:54.120] Wasn't that a penal colony for the pedophiliax? [11:56.420 --> 11:56.860] No. [11:57.920 --> 12:01.080] The various ex-colonial territories. [12:01.400 --> 12:11.920] There's also been a lot of these projects that have been unsuccessful, like people building artificial islands in the Pacific, in the Caribbean, various places. [12:12.120 --> 12:13.340] Those haven't been very successful. [12:13.840 --> 12:15.820] And Sealand really is in a unique position. [12:15.960 --> 12:19.140] It's not really in either of these two categories, because it has existed for a long time. [12:19.340 --> 12:23.160] It does meet all the technical requirements, which the other ones didn't. [12:23.640 --> 12:25.660] It isn't really an ethnic-based thing. [12:25.760 --> 12:34.740] A lot of these other things are based on like an oppressed ethnic group that have some reason to have a state, whereas Sealand is populated by people from around the world from a variety of backgrounds. [12:35.140 --> 12:44.160] And it's, however, in a really unique situation, because the conditions that allowed it to be founded have been changed after the fact, so that no one else can do it. [12:44.500 --> 12:47.100] And that really makes it a very unique situation. [12:47.400 --> 12:58.700] So right now, if you construct an artificial structure in international waters, it actually becomes owned, or at least the jurisdiction is, of the country that's closest. [12:59.280 --> 13:00.340] And at the time, that wasn't the case. [13:00.500 --> 13:04.960] So anything that you would do would automatically come into the jurisdiction of the closest state. [13:05.240 --> 13:21.580] Yeah, that was the 1982 Law of the Sea Convention, I think Montevideo, and they decided to pass this, partially because of the oil platforms that were being built and sort of abandoned, and partially because of countries trying to extend their fishing rights by building structures like rock all and things and building them further out. [13:23.060 --> 13:28.320] But I'm not really going to go into the legal background, because it's not really all that... it's lots of legal background. [13:29.340 --> 13:36.720] Sealand statehood, though, rests on a bunch of different individual rulings and actions by various governments, primarily the U.K. [13:36.900 --> 13:38.160] We're the closest to the U.K. [13:38.380 --> 13:43.020] We don't really care what, like, some random country like Argentina really thinks about us. [13:43.080 --> 13:45.520] They're really far away, and they don't really have any influence. [13:45.580 --> 13:49.420] However, we do care what the U.K. thinks, what European countries, what big influential countries care. [13:49.640 --> 13:53.100] I mean, we'd be happy with smaller countries supporters too, but in practice the U.K. is what matters. [13:54.360 --> 14:03.180] The initial challenges have been, when they first started Sealand, the U.K. customs was very, very strict and would open every little tin of food that was brought out. [14:03.380 --> 14:04.680] They would stop every ship. [14:04.820 --> 14:06.020] They'd say, oh, where are you going? [14:06.120 --> 14:06.560] Sealand. [14:06.680 --> 14:07.560] They would make them do customs. [14:07.800 --> 14:08.400] They'd do everything. [14:09.020 --> 14:10.800] Basically trying to get these people to go away. [14:11.520 --> 14:12.940] They were unsuccessful. [14:13.500 --> 14:18.620] There were weapons incidents where Sealand actually has many, many weapons that are illegal under U.K. law. [14:19.760 --> 14:25.420] The situation is that they have been used against Royal Navy ships in the past. [14:25.660 --> 14:26.760] Royal Navy ships approach. [14:26.940 --> 14:29.620] They try to do maintenance on things that are nearby. [14:29.860 --> 14:31.420] They encroach on Sealand's waters. [14:31.680 --> 14:32.660] They're fired upon. [14:38.920 --> 14:43.820] So this happened in, I believe the 70s was the first incident where a Royal Navy ship was fired upon. [14:44.040 --> 14:45.380] It was actually a tender. [14:45.580 --> 14:47.060] It wasn't really a big warship or anything. [14:47.240 --> 14:48.540] But they fired on it. [14:48.680 --> 14:52.520] The ship then immediately reversed full power and fled. [14:53.500 --> 15:08.280] The British then had a court case where they tried to get various people involved in Sealand, specifically I think Prince Roy, in a U.K. court, on weapons charges for, one, for firing on a U.K. vessel, two, for having a weapon that is illegal in the U.K. [15:08.660 --> 15:12.040] And the court basically decided that this, they no longer had jurisdiction. [15:12.300 --> 15:14.680] That this was not part of the U.K., so the court had no jurisdiction. [15:14.680 --> 15:17.240] So they said, not us, not our problem. [15:17.640 --> 15:19.140] And that's one of the rulings. [15:19.580 --> 15:28.120] There's also been a ruling, a letter from the U.K. equivalent of Social Security, where they say if you live on Sealand, you're not in the U.K., therefore you don't pay Social Security taxes. [15:28.820 --> 15:34.980] There's also the very exciting German incident, where a German businessman, I guess would be the polite way to describe him. [15:35.160 --> 15:35.880] Yeah, something. [15:36.520 --> 15:37.580] He was a lawyer. [15:37.780 --> 15:38.780] We're just, you know, polite. [15:39.020 --> 15:39.220] Yes. [15:39.780 --> 15:58.020] He got some Dutch Mafia people and came with them out to Sealand, somehow through Social Engineering got their way on board, took Prince Michael, who was the only person there at the time prisoner, hostage, whatever, at gunpoint, held him for several days, [15:58.540 --> 16:06.480] then occupied the place, declared themselves the government, continued, yeah, very, very, very simple coup, I think. [16:07.240 --> 16:09.240] And basically they had a place. [16:09.340 --> 16:14.980] However, Prince Roy being from the British Army in the past and having lots of friends, got a helicopter. [16:15.320 --> 16:18.260] Michael was returned to Holland and then went back to his parents. [16:18.380 --> 16:22.680] He was left with no passport and no money in Holland on a fishing boat, but eventually made his way back. [16:23.040 --> 16:41.320] He then went to his father, who had a nice helicopter with no doors and a fast rope and lots of his army buddies with guns, and they fast roped down and took the place with only a single shot being fired, no casualties, and then held the people prisoner of war because they had taken the place by force and it was a war. [16:46.800 --> 16:52.460] However, after this was done, the war was over, so they released all of the Dutch people who were simply soldiers. [16:52.680 --> 16:59.290] However, the German guy had previously accepted his Sealand passport and thus was guilty of treason. [16:59.540 --> 17:03.440] So he was kept in the prison for, I believe, several months. [17:03.980 --> 17:10.790] The German government sent a diplomat to the U.K. initially to try to get him released, who then sent him to Sealand. [17:11.400 --> 17:12.660] They said, not our problem. [17:12.790 --> 17:14.920] They said, these people are not in the U.K. [17:14.920 --> 17:15.860] It's not our problem. [17:15.980 --> 17:21.900] So they sent them to Sealand and a German diplomat negotiated for this guy's release, which was eventually done on Sealand. [17:22.420 --> 17:24.220] So that was an incident that supports Sealand. [17:24.400 --> 17:27.060] Plus, there's de facto recognition simply by its continued existence. [17:27.800 --> 17:28.940] We're obviously there. [17:29.120 --> 17:33.200] There's nobody in the U.K. government who can say they don't know that we're there and what we're doing. [17:33.440 --> 17:35.040] And they don't do anything. [17:35.200 --> 17:36.940] And they haven't done anything for 30-some years. [17:36.940 --> 17:42.900] So it's sort of, at this point, I think it's pretty much tacit acceptance on their part at the very least. [17:44.080 --> 17:46.080] And basically, this is interesting... [17:46.080 --> 17:50.270] I mean, I think Sealand is interesting just on its own as a sort of a legal hack and a jurisdictional hack. [17:50.480 --> 17:52.680] But we are most interested in, at least, Haven Co. [17:52.790 --> 17:55.040] from a actually accomplishing something standpoint. [17:55.770 --> 18:00.420] And basically, we want to use Sealand and we have been using Sealand for jurisdictional arbitrage. [18:00.860 --> 18:04.640] Basically, we want to have people use... [18:04.640 --> 18:11.060] what country your server's in, what country you're operating in, as a tool in the fight for freedom. [18:11.560 --> 18:15.060] We want people to be able to have countries that compete based on regulation. [18:15.380 --> 18:18.120] We want to have all the countries compete. [18:18.300 --> 18:24.840] And there's an economic, I think, and political science thing where if one country has really minimal regulation, the other ones have to match it. [18:24.990 --> 18:33.540] And eventually, there's a race to have the least regulation possible, which is why they sort of try to form cartels and try to keep the regulations uniform so that they don't start competition. [18:33.690 --> 18:35.840] This is especially familiar with taxes. [18:36.190 --> 18:41.820] And one of the conditions of joining the EU is that a lot of these countries get rid of their favorable tax regulations, like Ireland and Cyprus. [18:42.230 --> 18:51.690] And basically, we want to break this monopoly that governments have on physical territory and ability to operate in legal existence. [18:53.250 --> 18:55.210] And we want to allow... [18:55.590 --> 18:58.250] There's already precedent with this kind of thing, with the flags for ships. [18:58.340 --> 19:03.080] You can get a ship and get it flagged in, like, Panama or Nigeria or someplace, or rather, Liberia. [19:04.610 --> 19:07.750] And there's banking and reinsurance and various other businesses that have done this. [19:07.750 --> 19:12.030] However, nobody's really done this with the Internet yet, except for some of our customers. [19:12.100 --> 19:14.640] There were some people in the 90s, mid-90s, that tried it. [19:14.770 --> 19:16.920] And they were fairly successful, but it's not widely been done. [19:17.670 --> 19:21.470] So this is the jurisdictional arbitrage idea. [19:22.510 --> 19:24.820] And you really can only do this if you have a jurisdiction. [19:24.820 --> 19:27.510] So we had to find a jurisdiction that we could do this from. [19:28.010 --> 19:30.320] We approached... I think... is that the next slide? [19:30.560 --> 19:38.100] Yeah, we being some founders that had interest, Avi and myself and a few others, we had a very obvious interest in this kind of thing. [19:38.300 --> 19:45.080] We had a background in working in these offshore countries, as well as in IP networking, hosting, crypto, payment, all sorts of things that are useful for this. [19:45.470 --> 19:47.320] We looked at various options for how to do this. [19:47.490 --> 19:50.100] We looked at... there's Cortez Bank off of the coast of LA. [19:50.800 --> 19:53.900] We wanted to build an artificial structure there and do hosting from there. [19:53.900 --> 19:57.710] We looked at putting ships like 12 miles out and doing microwave relay to shore. [19:58.100 --> 20:03.120] We looked at small islands in the Pacific, various countries, Indian reservations in the U.S. and Canada. [20:03.290 --> 20:08.340] And basically, they were all okay in some ways, but none of them really together were a great deal. [20:08.800 --> 20:11.160] Then we looked on the internet and found Sealand. [20:11.450 --> 20:13.510] I'd never heard of it before, like the summer of 99. [20:14.030 --> 20:15.750] And we looked on the internet and emailed Michael. [20:15.840 --> 20:16.900] He has an email address in the U.K. [20:17.210 --> 20:21.250] And I went... I was going to a rave in Hungary and I decided I would just stop in. [20:21.470 --> 20:29.250] And I met him and I met his mother and his father and gave them some background on what we wanted to do and why we wanted to do it. [20:29.250 --> 20:31.860] But they weren't really from an internet background, computer background. [20:32.710 --> 20:34.340] However, they're from a pirate radio background. [20:34.540 --> 20:38.420] And philosophically, internet freedom and radio freedom are the same thing. [20:38.560 --> 20:39.450] It's just different technology. [20:39.730 --> 20:42.470] And as a result, they were very much in support of what we're doing. [20:43.970 --> 20:44.360] Thanks. [20:45.040 --> 20:46.840] So really, we got started in summer of 99. [20:47.430 --> 20:49.450] Early 2000, we were doing some more work. [20:49.620 --> 20:50.190] I think the next slide. [20:50.320 --> 20:53.510] Yeah, basically, we visited July of 99. [20:54.320 --> 20:56.490] Or rather, contacted him in July. [20:56.770 --> 20:57.600] Visited in August. [20:58.090 --> 21:00.860] We were then raising money, negotiating, figuring out how to do it. [21:01.140 --> 21:05.640] I mean, none of us had set up a country before or an operation on a country like this. [21:06.510 --> 21:08.800] Or this level of hosting or anything else. [21:08.970 --> 21:12.580] So we had to learn some of the details of how to implement it and come up with a pretty good plan. [21:14.120 --> 21:15.900] And it was the same as early pirate radio. [21:16.120 --> 21:17.660] And the royal family is supportive of it. [21:17.970 --> 21:19.690] Originally, they had less of an active involvement. [21:19.820 --> 21:21.710] They were just sort of letting us use their territory. [21:21.970 --> 21:27.560] But Michael, their son, who's like 50, is really, really motivated to participate. [21:27.730 --> 21:29.320] And now, he's involved in our management. [21:29.800 --> 21:33.080] He's no computer background before about a year ago. [21:33.230 --> 21:36.190] But now, he's happy SSH, PGP, all this stuff. [21:36.470 --> 21:38.880] And he completely supports what we do. [21:40.710 --> 21:42.250] So, yeah, basically, we did this. [21:42.810 --> 21:43.920] We had a plan. [21:44.060 --> 21:47.040] Our plan was to get connectivity up and running as quickly as possible. [21:47.670 --> 21:48.730] Get lots of publicity. [21:48.950 --> 21:52.710] Because if we did this very, like, secretively, it would be very easy for us to get shut down. [21:52.820 --> 22:02.380] If nobody knew what we were doing, if we were just hosting a couple of sites, very small sites, with nobody really thinking, they would just quietly shut off our connectivity or quietly go and invade or whatever else. [22:02.380 --> 22:04.190] But if we're widely known, they can't really do that. [22:04.600 --> 22:05.780] And sort of the advantage of... [22:05.780 --> 22:08.300] I mean, we're trying to provide privacy, but we can't do it in secret. [22:08.420 --> 22:09.960] We have to do it publicly, providing privacy. [22:11.110 --> 22:13.240] And we wanted to have high-quality service. [22:13.400 --> 22:16.520] I mean, Avi's from a carrier background, a telco carrier background. [22:16.660 --> 22:18.820] And I'm from a computer security background. [22:18.840 --> 22:19.640] So, we wanted to... [22:19.640 --> 22:21.020] How dare you insult me? [22:21.020 --> 22:21.100] Okay. [22:22.270 --> 22:22.980] IP backbone. [22:23.280 --> 22:23.640] Yeah. [22:23.880 --> 22:23.980] Okay. [22:24.990 --> 22:26.960] So, a good networking background. [22:27.190 --> 22:27.420] Thank you. [22:28.090 --> 22:29.540] And I'm from a security background. [22:29.720 --> 22:33.500] And we wanted to have technically good quality service or otherwise we'd be embarrassed by it. [22:33.640 --> 22:37.520] So, we wanted to have redundant connectivity, 24-hour-a-day security. [22:37.890 --> 22:43.120] And also, we have a couple of practical requirements that we have security and maintenance there all the time because we're in the middle of the North Sea. [22:43.670 --> 22:46.420] And as we've seen in the past, people can invade and take over. [22:46.800 --> 22:49.260] And that happens very easily if there's only one person there. [22:49.360 --> 22:54.900] It doesn't happen very easily if you have a trained 24-hour-a-day security staff that are armed and patrolling all the time. [22:55.950 --> 22:58.800] And we had to bring in network connectivity from all around the world. [22:59.850 --> 23:04.520] We were very, very successful in getting lots of press coverage, which I've never done before. [23:04.640 --> 23:09.040] Before this, I had no idea how easy it is to get... [23:09.040 --> 23:12.820] If you have the right kind of thing and you have the right relationship with the press, you can get huge amounts of coverage. [23:12.820 --> 23:13.760] And it's very, very useful. [23:14.430 --> 23:19.160] And I think it's one of the things that's helped us the most. [23:20.930 --> 23:26.380] From the standpoint, we're also...so we're basically...we're philosophically motivated, but we're also a commercial company. [23:26.500 --> 23:27.190] We'd like to make money. [23:27.340 --> 23:34.420] We're more interested in doing the right thing and breaking even than in making huge amounts of money and doing something that we don't support. [23:34.560 --> 23:38.190] I mean, if we wanted to make lots and lots of money, we'd just go work for, like, Wall Street brokerages or something. [23:38.460 --> 23:42.300] But we want to do...we want to change the world, but we want to be able to pay for changing the world at the same time. [23:42.300 --> 23:43.600] So we needed to have customers. [23:43.880 --> 23:47.800] And we're a commercial company that needs to get a viable customer base. [23:48.080 --> 23:50.540] And we had to look at what markets really support what we're doing. [23:51.500 --> 23:53.560] While it's really...well, freedom of speech is a really nice thing. [23:54.240 --> 23:56.600] It needs to be free, but it can't be, like, free. [23:56.820 --> 23:57.620] Like, you have to pay for it. [23:57.860 --> 24:02.640] And only some kinds of customers are willing to pay money for hosting, at least at certain rates. [24:03.280 --> 24:04.560] Gaming is a really big one. [24:04.720 --> 24:05.000] Gambling. [24:05.560 --> 24:07.360] And also people that run payment systems. [24:07.420 --> 24:11.380] People that have an initial great need for this kind of service were our target customers. [24:12.490 --> 24:16.780] We charge...right now we charge reasonable rates given what we provide. [24:17.220 --> 24:19.840] We charge about 750 a month for Netra X1. [24:21.240 --> 24:24.840] We...I mean, there were other people during the dot-com bubble that charged far more for less security. [24:25.320 --> 24:28.900] As long as we focus...compared to security providers, we're a pretty reasonable price. [24:29.020 --> 24:31.960] Compared to, like, cheap shared hosting, we're not. [24:32.040 --> 24:32.880] We don't do shared hosting. [24:33.260 --> 24:35.160] But we're okay from that side. [24:35.780 --> 24:38.360] We have moderate growth and we're focused on our current site. [24:38.450 --> 24:40.020] We were originally planning to set up a bunch of sites. [24:40.020 --> 24:45.900] But as we looked harder...I mean, one, we didn't have...we don't have access to, like, $50 million to set up a bunch of other data centers. [24:46.120 --> 24:49.120] However, also we looked at places where we could possibly set them up. [24:49.190 --> 24:52.980] And there aren't really that many other places that are suitable to even do at this stage. [24:53.850 --> 24:56.240] And regulations...we didn't think they would get bad as quickly as they did. [24:56.380 --> 25:01.520] But regulations in the past two years since we got started have gotten worse at a faster rate than they were before. [25:01.520 --> 25:04.260] And we didn't have the DMCA in force. [25:04.450 --> 25:07.060] There was no reason to suspect that the U.S. [25:07.100 --> 25:11.620] would actually arrest on criminal charges somebody from another country coming to the U.S. [25:11.690 --> 25:12.300] to present a paper. [25:12.450 --> 25:13.190] I mean, that's insane. [25:13.800 --> 25:18.520] It was actually very interesting because we thought that there were actually people in the governments in the U.S. [25:18.580 --> 25:20.860] and Britain who actually wanted to see us succeed. [25:20.860 --> 25:27.080] Because in the months after we were starting to get the publicity, they came out with Carnivore and called it, well, Carnivore. [25:27.400 --> 25:30.320] And we sort of thought that was actually a marketing ploy to help us. [25:30.480 --> 25:33.620] And then, of course, also when we were starting, that was when the British did their... [25:33.620 --> 25:34.080] RIP. [25:34.380 --> 25:35.060] Yeah, the RIP. [25:35.870 --> 25:36.450] So, yeah. [25:37.360 --> 25:40.400] British internet regulations are actually in many ways worse than the U.S. [25:40.480 --> 25:44.800] Sort of like they always...both countries end up with the same regulations, but they start in different places. [25:44.920 --> 25:45.980] They never get rid of regulations. [25:46.060 --> 25:46.720] They only add them. [25:47.300 --> 25:49.060] And RIP is one of the worst. [25:49.860 --> 25:54.860] But basically, we have a reasonable business that continues to operate, that makes money. [25:55.140 --> 25:56.210] It pays for all the expenses. [25:56.600 --> 25:57.120] It grows. [25:57.320 --> 25:58.600] And we're quite happy with this. [25:59.400 --> 26:03.040] We are, of course, trying to expand it, add different things. [26:04.340 --> 26:07.120] So the question everyone always asks is, why haven't you been shut down? [26:07.220 --> 26:09.620] Basically, we stood up and said, you can host whatever you want here. [26:09.760 --> 26:10.710] We're our own country. [26:11.060 --> 26:12.400] Nobody can shut us down. [26:12.660 --> 26:13.140] Everything else. [26:13.260 --> 26:15.060] And the obvious question is, why haven't you been shut down? [26:15.450 --> 26:18.600] And basically, it comes down to some very practical things as well as things. [26:18.600 --> 26:23.040] We believe we have what is a winning case on paper in terms of our sovereignty. [26:23.280 --> 26:27.320] And if you believe in Sealand sovereignty, nothing we're doing has any other problems. [26:28.040 --> 26:29.980] And basically, the U.K. [26:30.240 --> 26:32.500] would be the venue in which that would be fought. [26:32.840 --> 26:38.120] And they don't really want to fight that battle because they at least see that we have a good case. [26:38.600 --> 26:42.820] It's not a 100% chance that we'll win, but it's a good enough chance that they don't actually want to fight it. [26:44.780 --> 26:46.720] So, they're pretty happy in the current state. [26:47.210 --> 26:50.060] No one's really willing to pay to host really controversial stuff. [26:50.780 --> 26:54.840] And because we're not providing free hosting, we don't really have to worry about that. [26:55.640 --> 26:57.980] And also, we always have the argument, we're just a colo provider. [26:57.980 --> 26:59.040] We're not really doing anything. [26:59.040 --> 27:04.140] Like, we're not doing anything wrong. [27:04.190 --> 27:06.520] We're just providing colo, no matter what our customers do. [27:06.840 --> 27:09.260] And free speech is ultimately a winning thing. [27:09.420 --> 27:14.100] Everyone supports free speech, at least until there's something said that they don't like. [27:14.220 --> 27:17.520] So, as long as it remains an abstract issue, everyone supports free speech. [27:17.880 --> 27:23.340] And anybody who's doing anything really, really bad, like a terrorist or whatever else, doesn't want to go to a secure colo provider offshore. [27:23.640 --> 27:29.780] They're just going to take the stolen credit card number or something else and go get some, like, cheap virtual hosting account and use it as a throwaway thing. [27:29.960 --> 27:32.860] The only people that actually host with us are people who want to obey the law. [27:33.080 --> 27:35.520] They want to pick which laws they obey, but they want to obey the law. [27:35.760 --> 27:37.400] So, that's pretty reasonable. [27:39.450 --> 27:42.780] Photos, this is where our network equipment is, like our personal servers and stuff. [27:43.000 --> 27:45.760] We have, basically, three rooms that are built out with racks. [27:46.720 --> 27:48.480] We have a network operation center power. [27:49.280 --> 27:51.620] And we put test equipment and everything else in here. [27:53.060 --> 28:00.560] And basically, we, from a technical standpoint, we went with a pretty standard thing because, I mean, Avi's started in ISP before. [28:00.860 --> 28:02.220] I run network stuff. [28:02.500 --> 28:05.800] And we wanted to do something that was very simple, easy to set up, easy to maintain. [28:06.480 --> 28:12.190] Despite being the peak of the dot-com boom, we don't have, like, GSR as an M40 stacked up in boxes unused. [28:12.950 --> 28:21.040] So, we decided to go with a very simple architecture, like, 100-based TX, Ethernet everywhere, layer 2, BGP, we have our own AS, OSPF. [28:21.280 --> 28:27.260] Crypto tunnels, quite useful because we might want to terminate in different countries and not have our intermediate country traffic be sniffed. [28:27.820 --> 28:31.280] PC, nice 1U servers, Sun servers, which are really nice for management. [28:31.920 --> 28:35.840] A lot of... and we personally only use, like, free Unix operating systems. [28:35.960 --> 28:37.560] We don't use, like, Windows. [28:37.760 --> 28:40.220] However, our customers, a lot of them do use Windows, so we have to support it. [28:40.420 --> 28:44.500] We have some systems to automatically provision some parts of service. [28:44.640 --> 28:47.280] Like, we basically have FreeBSD can automatically be installed over the net now. [28:47.400 --> 28:48.420] We don't have Windows doing that. [28:48.710 --> 28:50.500] But we have... we're working on that. [28:50.500 --> 28:55.720] We have hot spares of everything because it can take, like, a week to get out there if the weather's really bad. [28:55.820 --> 28:58.280] So we have spare machines, spare parts, everything. [28:58.560 --> 29:01.580] Every machine has RAID and hot small power supplies and everything else. [29:01.920 --> 29:05.900] We have remote console and power cycling so customers can manage their own servers to a great degree. [29:06.060 --> 29:07.080] And out-of-band management. [29:07.220 --> 29:11.860] So basically what you'd expect from some internet company that got started in the 2000-2001 period. [29:12.780 --> 29:20.480] Just for some context, I actually started in ISP and ran it in a basement that was actually low enough that Bell had to cut the top off their racks to put the gear in. [29:20.480 --> 29:22.840] And this is significantly classier than that. [29:23.020 --> 29:24.500] So well above Ghetto Colo. [29:24.640 --> 29:28.100] But not quite as much as, you know... [29:28.100 --> 29:28.600] Any of the Chapter 11 companies. [29:28.600 --> 29:29.580] Any of the Chapter 11 companies. [29:30.300 --> 29:34.190] Excessive $800 per square foot exodus dead, you know, colo companies. [29:35.960 --> 29:38.600] So this is the topic I can speak most on. [29:38.920 --> 29:40.040] I live on Sealand. [29:40.240 --> 29:43.520] I basically am there full-time except when I'm on vacation. [29:43.900 --> 29:48.220] And I've been there since probably November 2000 full-time. [29:48.320 --> 29:49.220] I used to be in London more. [29:49.220 --> 29:51.500] And it's pretty spartan, which is okay. [29:52.260 --> 29:53.900] Concrete floors, everything else. [29:54.040 --> 29:56.400] Very small on-site staff, partially because it is spartan. [29:56.500 --> 30:01.380] But also because when they... during World War II when they had 400 people there, I have no idea where they put them all. [30:02.500 --> 30:05.420] They had... I'm sure they had like hot bunks and everything else. [30:05.560 --> 30:08.600] But it was... I would not want to be out there with more than like 50 people. [30:10.440 --> 30:12.480] And so the fewer people the better. [30:12.480 --> 30:14.690] We have fast internet connection, which is fine. [30:14.840 --> 30:16.280] I have like 100 base TX to my bed. [30:16.600 --> 30:18.380] And nice view. [30:18.660 --> 30:21.220] You have like... outside you can see the sea. [30:21.480 --> 30:23.220] And I guess you do that for a couple of days. [30:23.420 --> 30:26.000] I don't... I actually... my office and bedroom are both windowless. [30:26.080 --> 30:27.620] And I don't really look out the window very much. [30:28.870 --> 30:31.040] And we haven't really spent very much on accommodations. [30:31.930 --> 30:35.120] Partially because we have to do it ourselves and I'm really cheap. [30:35.120 --> 30:36.020] I don't really have it. [30:36.080 --> 30:39.220] I have like a four year old futon couch bed that I imported from the U.S. [30:39.240 --> 30:41.460] And I... I see no point in spending money on such things. [30:42.470 --> 30:45.220] And most of the other staff spend about a week on and a week off. [30:45.320 --> 30:47.720] They don't really stay out there for long periods of time. [30:48.260 --> 30:50.260] But really, I have the internet, so I don't care. [30:51.520 --> 30:54.880] This is our lovely network operation center, which... it's circular. [30:55.020 --> 30:58.480] So all the rooms are in the... in the circular pillars, which you saw on the first slide. [30:59.650 --> 31:04.980] They're about 22 feet in diameter and they're circular with stairs and an elevator shaft. [31:05.120 --> 31:09.000] And this is our network operation center, which is in the south tower. [31:09.340 --> 31:12.240] And it's circular, machines around the outside, space in the middle. [31:12.360 --> 31:13.820] This is like a very old photo of it. [31:15.140 --> 31:17.260] And that's pretty much where I work most of the time. [31:18.210 --> 31:21.540] We have our small rigid inflatable boat for transportation. [31:21.740 --> 31:22.860] This is a look... hmm? [31:23.720 --> 31:25.040] Yes, it's also the Sealand Navy. [31:25.280 --> 31:26.480] This boat is really annoying. [31:27.460 --> 31:29.900] This boat is the most annoying purchase we've ever made. [31:30.040 --> 31:33.300] It was a 5,000 pound ex-Royal Navy purchase. [31:33.300 --> 31:36.640] And we've spent around 30,000 pounds fixing it. [31:37.020 --> 31:38.710] A new one would have been 15,000 pounds. [31:38.880 --> 31:39.560] I didn't buy it. [31:41.130 --> 31:42.860] And it can go really fast, though. [31:43.020 --> 31:45.190] It has a bigger engine than the Royal Navy. [31:45.300 --> 31:49.560] And we had... I was stopped by customs once when I was in this boat where we were going to go. [31:49.660 --> 31:51.600] And they just asked for my passport and said, oh, you're going to Sealand. [31:51.710 --> 31:51.920] Okay. [31:52.060 --> 31:52.740] And they checked it off. [31:52.740 --> 31:54.480] And it was a regular customs exit. [31:54.870 --> 31:56.740] And we talked with them about their ship. [31:56.900 --> 31:59.160] And they have, like, an 80-foot patrol boat. [31:59.460 --> 32:00.960] And they asked what engine we had. [32:01.000 --> 32:02.300] And we had a small discussion. [32:02.500 --> 32:05.080] And they said, ah, yes, you can probably go faster than you can. [32:05.450 --> 32:06.840] So we have a very fast boat. [32:09.050 --> 32:10.820] So that's how we get equipment back and forth. [32:10.900 --> 32:11.820] We can also take a helicopter. [32:11.920 --> 32:14.980] The problem with a helicopter is it's about $4,000 round trip. [32:14.980 --> 32:19.320] And we don't like spending $4,000 for two hours or three hours of a helicopter. [32:19.540 --> 32:20.660] So we usually use the boat. [32:21.500 --> 32:23.020] We've had some difficulties in setting up. [32:23.120 --> 32:30.840] Basically, because we're in this remote North Sea location, if anything breaks at all, you really want to have it on site. [32:30.950 --> 32:31.820] You don't want to have to bring it in. [32:31.920 --> 32:36.000] We had one customer who gave us some Dell servers. [32:36.300 --> 32:39.400] And this customer's Dell servers were all redundant except for one. [32:39.560 --> 32:40.560] And that one broke. [32:40.720 --> 32:43.100] Of course, while I was in Holland at 1 a.m. [32:44.190 --> 32:53.320] And the interesting thing is that somebody ended up taking a boat in the dark, in very heavy seas, and got a spare part there in about an hour. [32:53.480 --> 32:57.720] But it was... I'm glad I was not on that boat. [32:59.650 --> 33:00.480] So that was a problem. [33:00.640 --> 33:01.780] Also, there's general market conditions. [33:01.900 --> 33:02.540] It's okay for us. [33:02.620 --> 33:03.380] We're not going to go bankrupt. [33:03.480 --> 33:06.060] Our customers are not listed in the stock market or anything, and they're not going to go bankrupt. [33:06.220 --> 33:07.560] But our vendors keep going bankrupt. [33:07.740 --> 33:10.480] Basically, every time we pick a telco, they go bankrupt. [33:11.740 --> 33:12.640] Which is really annoying. [33:14.190 --> 33:16.560] I mean, I could name them, but there are several. [33:17.130 --> 33:18.980] And we don't really have that much experience. [33:19.120 --> 33:21.540] I mean, I don't think anyone has experience managing this kind of business. [33:21.710 --> 33:23.160] Like, offshore, very small company. [33:24.690 --> 33:27.800] Usually, multinational companies are these huge things that are conglomerates. [33:27.880 --> 33:29.060] But this is a tiny little company. [33:30.810 --> 33:32.500] And we're sort of making it up as we go. [33:32.840 --> 33:35.220] And dealing with the press is very time intensive. [33:35.220 --> 33:38.160] We have a lot of press contacts. [33:38.220 --> 33:38.710] They come out. [33:38.800 --> 33:39.780] They spend basically a whole day. [33:40.080 --> 33:41.560] And it takes up a lot of time. [33:41.710 --> 33:42.740] But it seems to be worthwhile. [33:44.210 --> 33:47.210] And basically, our future plans are to try to grow the current site. [33:47.340 --> 33:48.120] Add more servers. [33:49.510 --> 33:50.220] Remain profitable. [33:50.360 --> 33:53.020] Not spend lots of money on building out front of everything. [33:53.190 --> 33:54.450] Because we want to stay in business forever. [33:54.660 --> 33:56.080] And we want to keep providing this. [33:56.680 --> 34:02.540] Now that we've basically covered our costs, we can now start doing things that are more interesting. [34:02.780 --> 34:03.400] We can do... [34:03.400 --> 34:05.400] Like, I have DCSS mirrored on C-Land. [34:05.480 --> 34:07.040] Which we hadn't done for like two years. [34:07.040 --> 34:08.320] Because we hadn't gotten around to it. [34:08.880 --> 34:12.120] We have some very exciting stuff that will be ready in a couple of months. [34:12.320 --> 34:16.340] That is content that can't really be hosted elsewhere from a customer. [34:17.120 --> 34:20.260] And various things that are now not quite so commercial and more interesting. [34:20.880 --> 34:25.560] And in the future, we're going to maybe try some more services, more sites. [34:25.560 --> 34:26.920] But we'll probably do them in separate companies. [34:31.350 --> 34:33.220] And we're a company and we're trying to make money. [34:33.320 --> 34:34.740] But we're also trying to change the world. [34:34.860 --> 34:37.560] And there's really some things that everyone can do that would help us. [34:37.980 --> 34:40.560] Not necessarily just help us make money, but help us change the world. [34:40.600 --> 34:41.450] Which would be good for everyone. [34:42.300 --> 34:43.460] Really, if nobody... [34:43.460 --> 34:52.380] If everyone stops fighting the legal battles to keep the U.S. and other places free, it's good for us in a way in that it will increase the demand for our services. [34:52.540 --> 34:54.950] It's bad for us in a way in that it will make us harder to do business. [34:54.950 --> 34:57.480] Because it will be harder for us to terminate our links and everything else. [34:57.950 --> 35:01.100] Ultimately, though, it would be better for us in business if the U.S. got worse regulations. [35:01.260 --> 35:08.880] However, from the standpoint of actually being a U.S. citizen and going to the U.S., it would be really annoying if I could no longer go to the U.S. [35:09.200 --> 35:14.060] And, I don't know, if they continue at the current rate, I think about five years from now, it's going to get to that point. [35:14.060 --> 35:23.700] So, if the other countries don't at least stop getting worse, they don't have to get better right away, but they can at least stop getting worse, it will be very bad. [35:24.240 --> 35:28.400] And since we use open source security software and operating systems, we really want those improved. [35:28.640 --> 35:31.080] I mean, I don't really care if people find new windows vulnerabilities. [35:31.260 --> 35:34.180] I just write off windows as completely intolerable. [35:34.180 --> 35:37.480] But the open SSH thing really annoyed me. [35:39.260 --> 35:45.880] If things like open source security software and operating systems are improved, if they can do new things, that would be great for us, that would be great for everyone. [35:46.400 --> 35:48.780] And also, another problem for us is that... [35:48.780 --> 35:52.360] So, you can put your server on C-Land, but you don't necessarily... [35:53.080 --> 35:54.680] If you're doing something... [35:54.680 --> 36:01.240] Let's say you have some information about some evil government conspiracy, and you put it on C-Land, and you're linked to that server in some way, it doesn't really help. [36:01.380 --> 36:03.080] The server will stay up, but you might not. [36:03.080 --> 36:04.100] So, you might disappear. [36:04.300 --> 36:05.780] And that's not really very good. [36:05.900 --> 36:09.960] We want to have ways that people can add content without being persecuted for what they're doing. [36:10.280 --> 36:19.400] And so, we need better anonymization and better privacy protection for people for managing servers, for adding themselves, for using servers. [36:19.620 --> 36:20.980] So, really, we need systems like that. [36:21.100 --> 36:23.500] And, of course, customer referrals are always good. [36:24.320 --> 36:27.660] And we'd be happy to take Q&A at this point, or we can go on about more details. [36:28.400 --> 36:30.640] And please go to the microphone. [36:31.640 --> 36:32.120] Hi. [36:32.620 --> 36:34.700] I'm Ice Pick from the Mnet project. [36:34.860 --> 36:38.980] And I wanted to ask Ryan, how is the Open DBS project going? [36:39.240 --> 36:40.100] Can you talk about that? [36:40.260 --> 36:40.820] Can you ask me a question? [36:40.940 --> 36:45.420] I can talk about that at DEFCON at Friday at 2 p.m. [36:46.200 --> 36:46.680] And... [36:47.440 --> 36:49.900] Yeah, I'll actually send you and Zuko some mail. [36:50.220 --> 36:50.500] Okay. [36:50.840 --> 36:51.020] Cool. [36:52.660 --> 36:53.900] A simple question. [36:54.140 --> 36:57.460] How do you connect to the backbone of the Internet on that from sea? [36:57.780 --> 36:58.060] Okay. [36:58.680 --> 37:00.720] Basically, we have a network. [37:00.900 --> 37:03.200] On Sealand, we have a couple of lands that are redundant. [37:03.820 --> 37:12.240] We then, at major Internet carrier hotels, buildings like Telehouse, there are buildings in New York that do the same thing, all around the world, we then peer and buy transit from other providers. [37:12.440 --> 37:16.400] We then run circuits from those buildings back to Sealand, either tunnels or real circuits. [37:16.400 --> 37:21.920] So we have redundant connectivity both in the upstream providers we connect to, as well as in the circuits that go back to Sealand. [37:22.460 --> 37:23.720] And then on Sealand, we have redundancy. [37:23.860 --> 37:24.820] So we... [37:24.820 --> 37:26.880] The problem is basically the long lines are expensive. [37:27.040 --> 37:30.760] And if we had one of those shut off, it would be more annoying than if we had a transit provider shut off. [37:30.960 --> 37:32.420] So we want to keep those things separate. [37:32.560 --> 37:38.860] We don't really care so much if somebody shuts off one of our transit providers because we have enough of them that, like, I'll get paged or something, but that's about it. [37:39.980 --> 37:44.240] The leased lines would be slightly more annoying because there are fewer providers, so we try to keep those separate. [37:44.240 --> 37:47.260] And we haven't had any problems, though, with any of these things. [37:47.420 --> 37:49.580] We've had problems with, like, carriers going bankrupt and other problems. [37:51.240 --> 37:53.500] I'm just curious about the physical security. [37:53.640 --> 37:56.520] I mean, one of the things we've realized is that centralization makes it a target. [37:56.980 --> 37:59.040] And it wouldn't be hard for somebody to miss with bombs. [37:59.180 --> 38:02.560] I mean, Lord knows we've been doing it enough lately, let alone some harpoon deliberately. [38:02.620 --> 38:06.080] So how can you provide security by distribution if we can't create more Sealands? [38:06.700 --> 38:09.320] Basically, our security model is that we can be destroyed. [38:09.320 --> 38:11.820] It wouldn't be that hard to physically destroy all of Sealand. [38:12.120 --> 38:13.240] I could probably do it. [38:14.580 --> 38:18.060] Well, I could do it, but I mean, if I weren't involved in Havenco, I could probably do it. [38:19.420 --> 38:23.920] Our security is that you can't actually get on board and take control of the servers and modify the servers. [38:24.720 --> 38:25.940] So we provide integrity. [38:26.020 --> 38:27.920] We don't provide protection against denial-of-service attack. [38:28.180 --> 38:31.220] Effectively, a big bomb is just a denial-of-service attack. [38:33.820 --> 38:39.080] We are very much in support of the various software distributed systems to do content hosting. [38:39.180 --> 38:41.800] If you're hosting static content, you can fairly easily mirror that. [38:41.800 --> 38:49.020] However, if you're doing transaction processing, distributed transaction processing isn't really all that feasible in the current technical climate. [38:49.180 --> 38:54.060] It might be in five or ten years, and we're actively supporting development efforts to do that kind of thing. [38:54.300 --> 38:58.320] But really, to do that reliably, you need to have hardware tamper resistance on servers. [38:58.620 --> 39:03.620] You need to have better distributed algorithms, higher bandwidth connections all available. [39:03.900 --> 39:06.900] And for right now, for practical applications, you can't really use it. [39:06.900 --> 39:10.060] So we support development, but right now, you can't really do it. [39:13.040 --> 39:14.540] I have two questions. [39:14.820 --> 39:17.240] Are you planning on having an anonymous remailer? [39:17.280 --> 39:19.400] And where do you get your actual power? [39:19.520 --> 39:21.260] Do you have a generator or something like that? [39:21.440 --> 39:23.300] Okay, the power question is really simple. [39:23.400 --> 39:26.540] We have diesel generators on site that run 24 hours a day. [39:26.780 --> 39:31.460] And we have, like, four of them, and we only need one of them to generate all the power. [39:31.460 --> 39:33.740] So we are pretty much set for that. [39:33.880 --> 39:37.740] It's the same as ISP's backup generators, except they're derated for 24-hour operation. [39:38.040 --> 39:39.100] They work very reliably. [39:39.300 --> 39:41.900] Better reliability on our power system than the U.K. power system. [39:42.080 --> 39:43.240] So we're pretty happy with that. [39:43.420 --> 39:48.620] As far as a remailer, I've had one running since September 19th, I think, of 2001. [39:49.700 --> 39:52.480] Remailer.havenco.com website and stuff. [39:52.960 --> 39:53.620] Mix faster. [39:55.120 --> 39:56.900] I have a hypothetical question. [39:57.440 --> 40:00.200] Suppose you did manage to somehow piss off the U.S. [40:00.760 --> 40:02.380] How long would you expect to last? [40:03.800 --> 40:05.040] It depends on... [40:05.040 --> 40:07.140] So you can answer that at different levels. [40:07.340 --> 40:10.200] I think it's 20 minutes for an ICBM from... [40:11.540 --> 40:13.980] But it depends on what you really mean by piss off. [40:14.120 --> 40:18.680] Like, if we had, like, Osama Bin Laden sitting on Sealand, we'd probably kill him ourselves. [40:18.920 --> 40:32.380] But if it's something that's, like, a serious military threat to us, our policy allows us to turn over the destroyed information, basically to shut off the service, we won't turn over anything useful. [40:32.560 --> 40:33.520] We will, however, shut off the service. [40:33.700 --> 40:36.660] So that basically provides an absolute upper limit to what they're willing to do. [40:36.820 --> 40:40.260] They're not really willing to kill, like, U.S. people for... [40:40.260 --> 40:43.140] who would be just to shut off the service, if they would shut off the service anyway. [40:44.020 --> 40:46.300] They might try to do it and, like, make it look like an accident or something. [40:46.460 --> 40:48.440] But I don't think that's a serious risk. [40:48.520 --> 40:50.280] I think they'd be more likely to try to use a legal attack. [40:50.280 --> 40:55.980] And especially since we're near the U.K., you can't really do anything without the U.K.'s consent, or at least... [40:56.900 --> 40:59.740] You basically can't do anything without the U.K.'s consent. [40:59.940 --> 41:03.240] And the U.K. is, much more than the U.S., a very legalistic country. [41:03.540 --> 41:05.340] They would go through the courts. [41:05.720 --> 41:12.620] There might be some preliminary blockade-type injunction, effectively, but that wouldn't really affect our satellite bandwidth. [41:12.880 --> 41:13.920] And we would be... [41:14.460 --> 41:15.440] It would be interesting. [41:15.580 --> 41:18.940] It would draw a lot of attention, and it would be... [41:18.940 --> 41:20.360] It would make the legal challenge more fun. [41:20.520 --> 41:22.880] It's more fun to fight a legal battle if the... [41:23.560 --> 41:24.680] If you have a lot on the line. [41:24.840 --> 41:26.380] And we would definitely, in that case, have a lot on the line. [41:28.520 --> 41:31.980] The question is about business continuity and disaster recovery. [41:32.300 --> 41:36.280] If you're in a single location and that's your only jurisdiction, what are you doing, if anything? [41:36.480 --> 41:38.560] And if you're not doing anything, is this a concern of your customers? [41:39.260 --> 41:39.500] Okay. [41:40.060 --> 41:40.380] Yeah. [41:40.900 --> 41:41.980] Basically, we have... [41:41.980 --> 41:43.560] Our customers already... [41:43.960 --> 41:44.280] They... [41:44.280 --> 41:46.040] Well, we tell our customers what we provide. [41:46.040 --> 41:49.140] They then engineer systems on top of that for their sites. [41:49.620 --> 41:50.020] They have... [41:50.020 --> 41:53.100] A lot of our customers do have other offshore jurisdictions that they use for backups. [41:53.540 --> 41:55.280] We do provide off-site backups. [41:55.600 --> 41:55.880] We can... [41:55.880 --> 41:56.460] I mean, our hardware. [41:56.520 --> 41:58.040] We can replace all of our hardware for... [41:58.040 --> 41:59.080] Like on... [41:59.080 --> 42:00.500] A good Amex black card. [42:00.780 --> 42:01.740] So we... [42:01.740 --> 42:02.760] We don't really... [42:02.760 --> 42:04.380] We're not worried about if we lost all our hardware. [42:05.760 --> 42:06.200] The... [42:07.740 --> 42:08.180] The... [42:08.700 --> 42:11.120] The other problems of business continuity. [42:11.320 --> 42:12.480] You really need to have on-site... [42:12.480 --> 42:14.420] You need to have other hot backups. [42:14.580 --> 42:15.680] You can't really rely on... [42:15.680 --> 42:16.180] I mean, we could... [42:16.180 --> 42:17.620] We could replace everything in a day or two. [42:17.760 --> 42:18.800] But a day or two in... [42:18.800 --> 42:20.160] On the Internet might be a serious problem. [42:20.600 --> 42:20.920] So... [42:20.920 --> 42:23.620] Most of our customers have existing off-site locations that they use. [42:23.840 --> 42:27.980] We might be able to, in the future, set up other centers where you could partner with existing... [42:27.980 --> 42:29.580] Secure data centers in other countries. [42:30.640 --> 42:30.960] Um... [42:30.960 --> 42:32.020] And that would be very interesting. [42:32.260 --> 42:33.320] But right now, we don't really do that. [42:34.620 --> 42:36.600] I have some questions on banking. [42:36.920 --> 42:38.060] Have you actually got a... [42:38.060 --> 42:38.700] Um... [42:38.700 --> 42:39.460] Let's say a... [42:39.460 --> 42:40.140] A bank... [42:40.140 --> 42:40.580] Sealand. [42:40.920 --> 42:41.220] And... [42:41.220 --> 42:44.880] Are you on any of the banking networks like Swift or anything for doing money transfer? [42:45.220 --> 42:45.480] Okay. [42:45.680 --> 42:47.260] Haven Co is a co-location company. [42:47.620 --> 42:48.060] And... [42:48.060 --> 42:49.300] We have no banking... [42:49.300 --> 42:50.360] We have no Swift connection. [42:50.660 --> 42:53.140] We use existing offshore banks for our payment processing. [42:53.780 --> 42:53.900] Uh... [42:53.900 --> 42:54.640] Sealand... [42:54.640 --> 42:56.800] I don't believe has any chartered banks. [42:57.260 --> 42:57.740] Uh... [42:57.740 --> 42:58.880] They've focused on Haven Co. [43:00.120 --> 43:00.600] Um... [43:00.600 --> 43:02.020] It's theoretically something we could do. [43:02.160 --> 43:03.240] It's not something that has been done. [43:03.820 --> 43:04.300] And... [43:04.300 --> 43:05.540] I don't really... [43:05.540 --> 43:06.160] Banks suck. [43:06.680 --> 43:07.020] They're... [43:07.020 --> 43:08.540] They're like evil organizations. [43:09.000 --> 43:10.160] Payment systems are cool. [43:10.280 --> 43:10.780] Banks suck. [43:11.120 --> 43:11.540] And... [43:11.540 --> 43:12.420] We support... [43:12.420 --> 43:13.100] Um... [43:13.100 --> 43:14.560] Various non-bank payment systems. [43:14.660 --> 43:15.640] We have lots of them as customers. [43:15.960 --> 43:16.420] And... [43:16.420 --> 43:17.880] I personally have involvement with them. [43:18.040 --> 43:18.500] And... [43:18.500 --> 43:20.500] I think that's the way we're gonna go in the future. [43:20.620 --> 43:21.360] And not really banking. [43:21.680 --> 43:23.440] Payment systems networks like Swift... [43:23.440 --> 43:24.520] Certainly are very interesting. [43:24.800 --> 43:26.160] And there are ways to get access to Swift... [43:26.160 --> 43:27.920] Without actually being a Swift member yourself. [43:28.740 --> 43:28.960] Uh... [43:28.960 --> 43:29.280] But we're... [43:29.280 --> 43:30.460] We're not a banking organization. [43:30.720 --> 43:31.620] So we don't really do that ourselves. [43:33.300 --> 43:33.740] Um... [43:33.740 --> 43:33.920] Hi. [43:34.100 --> 43:35.640] I have a question. [43:35.900 --> 43:36.320] Actually... [43:36.320 --> 43:36.980] And also a comment. [43:37.720 --> 43:37.960] Um... [43:37.960 --> 43:38.660] The question is... [43:38.660 --> 43:41.780] If you're a person who would be interested in working for uh... [43:41.780 --> 43:42.140] Uh... [43:42.140 --> 43:42.700] Haven Co. [43:43.720 --> 43:44.160] Um... [43:44.160 --> 43:47.420] What would be the pre-resequence that you would want for them to have like any... [43:47.420 --> 43:47.800] Uh... [43:47.800 --> 43:49.760] Degrees or certifications or... [43:49.760 --> 43:50.580] Like anything? [43:51.340 --> 43:51.780] Yeah. [43:51.780 --> 43:52.300] Um... [43:52.300 --> 43:53.620] I'm a high school dropout. [43:54.000 --> 43:54.760] And uh... [43:54.760 --> 43:55.580] Also dropped out of MIT. [43:56.200 --> 43:57.400] And Avi's a dropout... [43:57.400 --> 43:57.460] Come on! [43:57.780 --> 43:57.900] Yeah. [43:58.660 --> 44:00.340] And Avi also dropped out of university. [44:00.760 --> 44:01.200] So... [44:01.200 --> 44:01.460] Um... [44:01.460 --> 44:03.680] It would be kind of hypocritical of us to go for college. [44:04.620 --> 44:04.860] No? [44:05.040 --> 44:05.640] I'm sort of viable. [44:05.640 --> 44:06.140] Um... [44:07.040 --> 44:07.360] Yeah. [44:07.520 --> 44:07.800] I mean... [44:07.800 --> 44:09.140] We have no professional certifications either. [44:09.380 --> 44:09.600] So... [44:09.600 --> 44:09.860] I mean... [44:09.860 --> 44:10.720] We're just... [44:13.760 --> 44:14.080] Um... [44:14.500 --> 44:15.940] We're not actively hiring right now. [44:16.160 --> 44:16.420] I mean... [44:16.420 --> 44:17.700] We have some U.K. people that we hire. [44:17.780 --> 44:19.020] But we're not really hiring right now. [44:19.200 --> 44:21.160] But in the future, we just look at what people do. [44:21.400 --> 44:22.320] What they have done in the past. [44:22.400 --> 44:23.260] What they can do in the future. [44:23.460 --> 44:24.740] And evaluate them on that basis. [44:24.740 --> 44:25.480] Uh... [44:25.480 --> 44:26.760] I don't think... [44:26.760 --> 44:27.040] Um... [44:27.040 --> 44:27.200] University... [44:27.200 --> 44:27.460] I mean... [44:27.460 --> 44:28.460] University degrees are... [44:28.460 --> 44:30.280] Maybe indicative of what you've done in the past. [44:30.300 --> 44:30.820] What you could do. [44:31.000 --> 44:32.240] But they're not required, certainly. [44:32.500 --> 44:32.720] Okay. [44:33.220 --> 44:33.440] Uh... [44:33.440 --> 44:34.600] Also the one comment I was thinking. [44:36.120 --> 44:36.540] Um... [44:36.540 --> 44:38.680] Because you guys are just on basically a large... [44:38.680 --> 44:40.280] Rusted metal bucket. [44:41.020 --> 44:41.440] Um... [44:41.440 --> 44:42.780] Would you guys think of like... [44:42.780 --> 44:44.080] Making your own land by like... [44:44.080 --> 44:45.280] Having people dump shrap... [44:45.280 --> 44:45.740] Like... [44:45.740 --> 44:46.100] Crap. [44:46.280 --> 44:47.820] And then like getting dirt from the big dig. [44:48.120 --> 44:48.540] And... [44:48.540 --> 44:49.040] You know... [44:49.040 --> 44:49.900] Actually making it a real land? [44:50.000 --> 44:50.140] Yeah. [44:50.280 --> 44:51.620] We've actually looked at that... [44:51.620 --> 44:51.900] Um... [44:51.900 --> 44:53.080] In Holland, I think like... [44:53.080 --> 44:55.200] Half the land in the whole country is reclaimed from the sea. [44:55.760 --> 44:56.080] So... [44:56.080 --> 44:57.000] We've looked at similar things. [44:57.100 --> 44:58.380] The sea is only 20 feet deep there. [44:58.540 --> 45:00.500] So you just put a sea wall in and you fill in some landfill. [45:00.860 --> 45:01.180] And... [45:01.180 --> 45:02.000] And done and done. [45:02.160 --> 45:03.260] Like it's like a couple million dollars. [45:03.420 --> 45:04.160] We just haven't done it yet. [45:04.340 --> 45:06.180] Because we have plenty of space for the people that are there. [45:06.300 --> 45:07.060] And the servers that are there. [45:07.820 --> 45:08.140] And... [45:08.140 --> 45:09.120] We might do it in the future. [45:09.720 --> 45:09.960] Okay. [45:10.300 --> 45:10.420] Thank you. [45:13.180 --> 45:14.320] I have two quick questions. [45:14.480 --> 45:16.080] What's involved with the maintenance of Sealand? [45:16.880 --> 45:17.200] Like... [45:17.840 --> 45:19.600] Any maintenance that needs to be done on the structure? [45:20.700 --> 45:21.020] Or... [45:21.020 --> 45:21.540] That's about it. [45:21.540 --> 45:21.780] Okay. [45:22.720 --> 45:23.160] Um... [45:23.160 --> 45:24.420] I don't really handle that myself. [45:24.640 --> 45:26.660] We have our security and maintenance staff that do the maintenance. [45:27.040 --> 45:27.200] Um... [45:27.200 --> 45:27.760] The concrete... [45:27.760 --> 45:28.940] Concrete and sea water is fine. [45:29.080 --> 45:30.520] It just sort of like gets stuff attached to it. [45:31.240 --> 45:31.680] Um... [45:31.680 --> 45:32.060] Steel... [45:32.060 --> 45:33.380] We replace the steel deck routinely. [45:34.120 --> 45:34.500] Uh... [45:34.500 --> 45:36.020] We deal with fuel transfers. [45:36.120 --> 45:37.620] The biggest maintenance is bringing new fuel. [45:37.880 --> 45:38.060] And... [45:38.060 --> 45:40.800] New maintenance on smaller systems like power systems and everything else. [45:40.800 --> 45:42.900] I've learned how to rebuild diesel generators. [45:43.240 --> 45:43.660] And... [45:43.660 --> 45:45.040] I've watched people do a lot of welding. [45:45.480 --> 45:45.920] And... [45:45.920 --> 45:48.840] Learn how to move 55 gallon drums of fuel around quite efficiently. [45:49.580 --> 45:50.020] So... [45:50.020 --> 45:50.780] Um... [45:50.780 --> 45:52.260] That's about the maintenance that I do. [45:52.480 --> 45:53.140] But there's... [45:53.140 --> 45:54.000] Um... [45:54.000 --> 45:54.800] There's maintenance that... [45:55.960 --> 45:56.400] Um... [45:56.400 --> 45:56.860] There's just... [45:56.860 --> 45:59.220] It's the kind of maintenance you do like light industrial maintenance. [45:59.360 --> 46:00.220] Nothing really all that special. [46:00.220 --> 46:02.180] The second question is, does FedEx deliver? [46:02.740 --> 46:06.260] FedEx delivers to the U.K. and our boat is about 30 minutes trip. [46:06.540 --> 46:06.860] So... [46:06.860 --> 46:08.220] That's usually how we deal with stuff. [46:12.290 --> 46:12.770] Uh... [46:12.770 --> 46:16.810] There's actually a grocery store in the U.K. called Tesco that delivers from the internet. [46:17.070 --> 46:20.470] And I order groceries from that and have them delivered to the marina and pick them up on the boat. [46:21.230 --> 46:21.710] Hi. [46:21.970 --> 46:38.170] I'm curious how well protected Haven Co is against assaults, not of a physical nature, but of a legal nature from large, well-financed international conglomerates, like, say, the RIAA or the Church of Scientology. [46:38.950 --> 46:39.390] Um... [46:39.390 --> 46:40.630] Or many others. [46:40.970 --> 46:41.830] We'll find out. [46:42.030 --> 46:44.430] Against, um, assaults on your bank accounts. [46:44.470 --> 46:45.070] It's funny you should mention that. [46:45.070 --> 46:50.650] The domain name tables, the routing tables, and other areas where CLAN intersects with the rest of the world. [46:50.870 --> 46:59.070] I'm not worried about the routing tables because I can take care of that and I have direct relationships with over a couple hundred ASs with tens of gigabits, probably hundreds of capacity. [46:59.290 --> 47:00.610] So I'm not really worried about that. [47:00.750 --> 47:02.890] And we're about to piss off religions, so we'll see. [47:03.570 --> 47:04.070] And, no, it's... [47:04.070 --> 47:06.870] It's not that little pedophiliac nation near Italy. [47:06.910 --> 47:09.870] It's, uh, one of the other religions that you mentioned, so... [47:09.870 --> 47:10.170] Yeah. [47:10.350 --> 47:10.710] So, yeah. [47:10.790 --> 47:12.650] We'll see, uh, maybe in a month or two. [47:14.750 --> 47:16.370] But we, we think it's pretty secure. [47:16.530 --> 47:17.570] We, we, um... [47:17.570 --> 47:21.870] Basically, we don't have any assets off of CLAN that are so important to us that we can't replace them. [47:21.950 --> 47:26.370] We just rely on individually protecting them a little bit, but not making them really big targets. [47:27.530 --> 47:31.010] Uh, say one of your customer sites on CLN gets, like, slash dotted. [47:31.230 --> 47:33.010] How soon can you turn up additional capacity? [47:34.030 --> 47:36.690] Um, we have enough capacity to deal with slash dotting, usually. [47:36.910 --> 47:39.690] Unless it's, like, um, a divx that gets slashed dotted or something. [47:39.970 --> 47:41.310] And we have rate limiting. [47:41.610 --> 47:47.270] Um, we are working, actually, in the next year timeframe to try to get, like, infinite bandwidth effectively. [47:47.270 --> 47:51.770] And, at that point, um, we will slash dot, slash dot. [47:53.290 --> 47:53.770] And... [47:57.450 --> 47:57.930] Okay. [47:58.170 --> 48:01.630] Well, first, I want to ask, is there a top-level domain? [48:01.930 --> 48:04.430] I missed part of this, uh, panel here. [48:04.950 --> 48:07.610] Top-level domain for, uh, for C... [48:08.470 --> 48:09.110] C line. [48:09.350 --> 48:10.150] C, thank you. [48:10.470 --> 48:10.550] Okay. [48:11.230 --> 48:11.550] Is that it? [48:11.730 --> 48:11.870] Okay. [48:12.290 --> 48:14.510] Um, right now, we don't have a top-level domain. [48:14.510 --> 48:19.470] To get a top-level domain, you have to get, uh, on the ISO 3166 list. [48:19.790 --> 48:24.670] Which requires that you get listed in one of, I think, three documents. [48:25.150 --> 48:30.410] And that process is a very long and very involved one that has nothing to do with technology. [48:30.730 --> 48:32.930] And it's a bunch of diplomacy and politics. [48:33.310 --> 48:37.270] And we have some people involved in the company that are involved in diplomacy and politics. [48:37.510 --> 48:38.030] And they are not me. [48:38.110 --> 48:40.170] So, I can't really speak about the details of that. [48:40.370 --> 48:40.770] Okay. [48:41.010 --> 48:43.830] Um, I'm wondering, what sort of... [48:43.830 --> 48:47.450] legal system is such as it is. [48:47.990 --> 48:58.210] What, what I'm thinking, um, the, the issue that brought this to mind was the, um, ban on child pornography, right? [48:59.110 --> 49:11.970] Well, you know, there have been rulings in American courts now that if it's, if it's, uh, if no children are involved, then it's not for the law courts to decide. [49:11.970 --> 49:12.050] Right. [49:13.490 --> 49:14.430] And it... [49:14.430 --> 49:21.850] Presumably, you have to have something similar to a legal system to make decisions like that. [49:22.030 --> 49:22.210] Right. [49:22.390 --> 49:23.490] Sealand is a principality. [49:23.650 --> 49:25.950] Therefore, the prince is the government of Sealand. [49:26.230 --> 49:26.610] Really? [49:26.610 --> 49:27.890] He is also the court of Sealand. [49:27.890 --> 49:28.150] It's a monarchy? [49:28.150 --> 49:30.410] It's a principality, which is a monarchy, yes. [49:30.410 --> 49:30.550] Yes. [49:30.990 --> 49:41.430] Um, so, uh, because he's already said that the Constitution protects freedom of information and everything else, there is no risk from, um, from them changing laws on that side. [49:41.610 --> 49:45.430] But as far as interpreting the laws for child pornography, it would be up to him. [49:45.430 --> 49:49.790] Um, we, we don't have any, there's no money in child pornography. [49:50.050 --> 49:53.530] So, there's no likelihood that any customer is ever going to put a child porn server on Sealand. [49:53.750 --> 49:55.770] So, uh, it's not really likely to be an issue. [49:57.110 --> 49:57.550] Um... [49:57.550 --> 49:57.770] Okay. [49:57.810 --> 49:58.390] Last thing. [49:58.630 --> 49:58.950] Any... [49:58.950 --> 50:01.210] Have you given any thought to solar power? [50:02.110 --> 50:13.350] Um, we would need about a couple of football fields worth of solar cells to do it, and they would cost about as much as it cost us to run our diesel generators for the next century. [50:13.350 --> 50:14.330] So, not really. [50:14.430 --> 50:15.930] Fuel cells are much more interesting to us. [50:16.090 --> 50:20.730] Um, I mean, like a 200k fuel cell would cover us, and then we might do that. [50:25.250 --> 50:25.650] Any... [50:25.650 --> 50:26.110] Cool. [50:26.310 --> 50:26.570] Great. [50:27.170 --> 50:27.570] Okay. [50:27.730 --> 50:27.950] Thank you.