[00:34.950 --> 00:43.750]  What a good strategy is, is something that uses the fact that we are... we can be faster than them, and we have more of a sense of humor.
[00:45.330 --> 00:49.030]  But that's the good news, but the bad news is those are really our only weapons.
[00:49.830 --> 01:06.310]  So, thinking of new strategies and using whatever you do well in some way that they haven't seen before, and making that your life for six months and then going on and doing something else, may be much more important than any of the traditional means of activism.
[01:07.010 --> 01:15.230]  It doesn't really... the traditional means of activism, of motivating other people to spend their life doing this thing.
[01:15.870 --> 01:20.250]  It's really about what you can do that's really different and has a sense of humor.
[01:20.510 --> 01:24.110]  The two main weapons are ignorance and disinformation.
[01:24.970 --> 01:31.310]  And there is one saying that every hacker has heard at some point in his life, and it's what I kind of fell in love with.
[01:31.310 --> 01:33.130]  And that is, information is power.
[01:33.550 --> 01:38.990]  If you spread that information, if everybody knows the truth, then they can't use their weapons.
[01:42.200 --> 01:42.840]  Back here.
[01:43.000 --> 01:47.300]  I just wanted to add that, like, history is kind of an important thing.
[01:48.220 --> 02:01.020]  Even though, like, there weren't any computers, you know, a hundred years ago, people have been fighting the same battles over speech and democracy and information for a long time.
[02:01.460 --> 02:07.840]  And looking back at how countries were founded and what battles there were, can really help.
[02:08.120 --> 02:08.680]  Yeah.
[02:09.600 --> 02:10.640]  History repeats itself.
[02:10.980 --> 02:15.480]  The communist scare in the United States or, you know, any of these things really matter.
[02:15.600 --> 02:17.360]  They make a big difference to what we do.
[02:18.650 --> 02:25.190]  I mean, there's one thing why I put this child pornography to...
[02:26.050 --> 02:29.410]  The public and the media can be our friends.
[02:29.670 --> 02:41.550]  Because, I mean, what they actually do is keep the people not only very stupid, but use this stupidity with some keywords to get acceptance for what they are doing.
[02:41.550 --> 02:53.350]  So, things like child pornography means they just use the missing media competence of the public if it comes to such sensitive issues.
[02:53.670 --> 03:02.190]  And it can be our role as a hacker scene also to explain these issues to journalists and get that public know-how.
[03:02.430 --> 03:10.570]  Because we can get smarter media and smarter people in ourselves than the politicians are.
[03:10.570 --> 03:15.450]  So, it's not the politics which made us trouble in some times.
[03:15.590 --> 03:16.570]  It's other people here.
[03:17.110 --> 03:19.050]  Not the official politics.
[03:19.050 --> 03:23.570]  They are simply used as most of the media are.
[03:23.950 --> 03:31.770]  So, I think we can mention that in some areas our problem is not the politicians we vote.
[03:31.770 --> 03:37.930]  It's the stupidity of them being used by economic and secret service interests.
[03:39.090 --> 03:39.790]  So, I think we have
[03:45.460 --> 03:49.440]  to do a little bit of work and a little bit of diligence to understand these issues.
[03:49.700 --> 03:59.220]  Most people would rather just sign up with AOL and believe that the internet and everything is so easy and friendly and everything is safe when in fact it's not true.
[04:00.000 --> 04:07.500]  And marketing is the ultimate perception manager for the public that instills this complacency and perpetuates.
[04:07.500 --> 04:14.460]  Now, we happen to be, I guess, amongst some of the more enlightened people who can perhaps see the
[04:19.650 --> 04:20.870]  unwittingly in this room.
[04:21.190 --> 04:41.170]  But at least it's incumbent upon people who have the knowledge to use that and educate virally their friends and public any way they can to try to break through this media-imposed perception management which lulls people into a false sense of security and complicity.
[04:41.510 --> 04:46.010]  I mean, last night the steals actually seduced a lot of you people from bullshit.
[04:47.210 --> 04:48.630]  That's another example.
[04:48.810 --> 04:50.310]  So, it doesn't end here is what I'm saying.
[04:50.310 --> 04:53.250]  that freedom requires work individuals.
[04:54.130 --> 05:06.410]  And complacency is the ultimate drug that will allow the corporate and government, you know, whatever entities to move your mind and control.
[05:06.990 --> 05:14.210]  So, it's up to you as individuals to do some work in order to transcend, break through that, and educate your people.
[05:14.550 --> 05:15.950]  So, how can we face this?
[05:33.850 --> 05:36.610]  Yeah, the question was about Infopol.
[05:36.930 --> 05:39.930]  So, I mentioned it a very little bit.
[05:40.090 --> 05:48.670]  There was a more or less campaign officially run by the Europol Initiative.
[05:49.410 --> 05:50.130]  Oops.
[05:50.430 --> 05:54.750]  The cooperation of European or European polices of the different countries.
[05:54.930 --> 06:00.230]  They have one informal ministry now in Den Haag.
[06:00.230 --> 06:02.430]  The Europol organization.
[06:03.370 --> 06:15.510]  And they wanted to have some laws, European laws in all countries so that one country could intercept European citizen which is in another country.
[06:15.810 --> 06:22.830]  This initiative called Infopol was officially non-existent for a long time.
[06:22.830 --> 06:27.450]  So, they said there doesn't exist such an idea and that's all bullshit.
[06:28.310 --> 06:36.010]  And then there were some papers found out by, let's call it investigative journalism and not hacking.
[06:36.290 --> 06:37.430]  Maybe it's the same.
[06:38.610 --> 06:42.970]  So, they couldn't deny that it exists but then it was away.
[06:43.490 --> 06:52.910]  And exactly this strategy discussion is for this new stuff coming now simply called lawful interception.
[06:53.550 --> 07:04.310]  Also, the European ECHELON discussion, for example, does not mean that we don't want to have no telecommunications interception or privacy.
[07:04.310 --> 07:20.390]  So, the France government is the loudest government within the European Union criticizing the U.S. ECHELON system but not saying that they are doing something to our privacy and that's not good for our society.
[07:20.390 --> 07:24.950]  They're saying, hey, it can't be that they are spying us and not we spying them.
[07:25.190 --> 07:27.310]  So, we should build up our own system.
[07:27.450 --> 07:37.490]  And France is actively building up its own system within all European countries and also other countries to do espionage and stuff like that.
[07:37.630 --> 07:39.090]  And other countries as well.
[07:39.090 --> 07:45.610]  So, this is more some kind of next step than really nice development.
[07:46.510 --> 07:51.570]  And so, Infopol is now renamed also like other stuff is renamed.
[07:51.730 --> 07:52.950]  So, we don't have key estuary.
[07:53.130 --> 07:54.050]  We now have review.
[07:54.870 --> 07:59.050]  And most of the stuff is called lawful interception.
[07:59.050 --> 08:01.510]  And, yeah.
[08:01.890 --> 08:03.730]  So, that's the issue coming.
[08:06.130 --> 08:08.670]  Naming of laws is becoming more and more creative.
[08:09.730 --> 08:20.850]  Like a lot of liberties that America has in terms of First Amendment rights to speak about things are now being repealed under a law that's, what was it called?
[08:20.850 --> 08:31.550]  The Methamphetamine Proliferation Act, which is a great name because you can't really protest the Methamphetamine Proliferation Act.
[08:33.570 --> 08:36.290]  Well, you can, but...
[08:36.290 --> 08:37.250]  Terrorist.
[08:38.450 --> 08:39.310]  Okay, pick him up now.
[08:39.350 --> 08:39.890]  Take him, lads.
[08:40.330 --> 08:40.810]  Take him up.
[08:42.370 --> 08:47.530]  So, these laws are being very creatively named and they have crazy things in them.
[08:48.850 --> 08:50.630]  This is just a remark.
[08:51.150 --> 08:55.750]  I think some very, very creative and cynical people are working on the other side.
[08:57.230 --> 08:58.930]  Possibly some of these people...
[08:58.930 --> 09:05.790]  I remember being in rooms like this 10, 12 years ago and talking about...
[09:05.790 --> 09:12.510]  In the Reagan era, we saw some of these developments and we were sort of fantasizing about where this was all headed.
[09:13.610 --> 09:21.490]  And a lot of these fantasies were used pretty much literally in some of these laws that have now come out.
[09:21.690 --> 09:26.450]  So, I can't look at these legal situations, for instance, the British situation.
[09:26.710 --> 09:30.510]  I can't look at that and not feel some sort of...
[09:31.210 --> 09:31.770]  Fear?
[09:31.770 --> 09:33.130]  No, not fear.
[09:35.110 --> 09:37.150]  It makes me laugh almost.
[09:37.670 --> 09:41.950]  It's so ridiculous and it's so ironic and it's so... that I almost have to laugh.
[09:42.110 --> 09:46.570]  I almost have to admire the cynicism with which this is being executed.
[09:47.490 --> 09:48.630]  I'm actually waiting.
[09:48.770 --> 09:52.890]  My favorite law that will come in like 2004, 2005 is...
[09:52.890 --> 10:01.390]  You have no idea how much industry, like the publishing industry, and how much they're paying politicians to have all this legislation enacted.
[10:02.430 --> 10:03.370]  Huge sums.
[10:03.590 --> 10:12.470]  And it's really not that large a number of people on earth, like a sub-promillage of the population, that are causing them to have these laws enacted.
[10:12.470 --> 10:17.150]  And it's only fair that we end up paying part of this cost.
[10:17.530 --> 10:27.430]  So, the corporate lobbying legislation payment bill of 2004 would actually get these people, like this Jon Johansen.
[10:27.630 --> 10:31.310]  He needs to pay his part of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.
[10:31.450 --> 10:33.550]  You have no idea what that costs to get that enacted.
[10:33.810 --> 10:39.630]  That's sort of my favorite cynical bit of legislation which I'm expecting to be enacted.
[10:39.970 --> 10:41.470]  Maybe you make the laws here.
[10:41.470 --> 10:42.510]  No, no, no.
[10:42.570 --> 10:43.570]  But what I'm saying is...
[10:45.610 --> 10:47.290]  You have to lobby for that bill.
[10:47.730 --> 10:48.550]  Yeah, I might.
[10:49.610 --> 10:52.070]  No, but what I'm saying is we should...
[10:53.210 --> 10:54.850]  A few years...
[10:55.290 --> 10:56.290]  You have to think ahead.
[10:56.430 --> 10:57.810]  You have to think ahead about what's...
[10:57.810 --> 11:00.950]  If this is the current situation, what is the worst they could do?
[11:00.950 --> 11:03.430]  I'm not saying we shouldn't fantasize about that.
[11:03.810 --> 11:09.390]  But you should take these fantasies and think about them really carefully because they might become real.
[11:10.230 --> 11:11.890]  And you have to be a few years ahead.
[11:12.070 --> 11:14.570]  Well, I don't know if that makes any sense, but to me it does.
[11:17.470 --> 11:20.210]  Any further...
[11:20.210 --> 11:21.230]  There, yeah.
[11:21.270 --> 11:32.970]  I want to know if the government would start using hardware companies building computers, like putting in almost a number like the...
[11:38.490 --> 11:43.490]  The Intel P3.
[11:55.360 --> 11:56.760]  Yeah.
[11:56.760 --> 12:03.020]  I mean that's passed, but the question in general is of course the question of identification.
[12:04.140 --> 12:14.340]  And we have to mention there's some kind of a very huge, large, esoteric discussion out there around us called e-commerce.
[12:14.760 --> 12:24.980]  And in that discussion there is the government coming with suggestions like the digital signatures, which means people shall be identified.
[12:24.980 --> 12:33.560]  This does not really make sense for electronic commerce because someone who wants to trade information or a good, he wants to get the money.
[12:33.760 --> 12:37.000]  He does not in the first term care about who he's selling it to.
[12:37.200 --> 12:39.140]  He cares about getting paid.
[12:39.660 --> 12:47.800]  And so for electronic transactions, what we need, I would say is digital anonymous cash and not digital signatures.
[12:48.080 --> 12:52.440]  But what the government says is people make, make contracts.
[12:52.440 --> 13:02.160]  So if you take it from a legal and theoretically a perspective and take the fantasy Rob just mentioned, you can say, Oh, those people make contracts.
[13:02.160 --> 13:13.420]  So they need to identify each other so they can wear those people to court and take their handcuffs and stuff like that.
[13:13.420 --> 13:30.540]  So we have to go to that discussions also because digital sicknesses are not only an overload where governments spend money, which is senseless and could be used for good projects, but also is doing harm to society.
[13:30.540 --> 13:39.580]  Because if there is too much personal and identification data out there, there will be people using that for bullshit.
[13:39.580 --> 13:40.680]  We know that.
[13:40.860 --> 13:43.100]  So if it's there, people will do it.
[13:43.240 --> 13:44.740]  And we got to avoid that.
[13:44.940 --> 14:00.800]  And so stuff like that, I think it's very important that also we as a hacker scene go to the discussions of computer security taking place at commercial places and speak out loudly our ideas and our point of views on that.
[14:01.080 --> 14:10.560]  Because there's lots of companies like telecommunication carriers who also have lots of problems and don't like to integrate lawful interception technology.
[14:10.840 --> 14:16.480]  But their problem is that they work under NDA conditions, under non-disclosure agreements.
[14:16.680 --> 14:23.260]  So they know all this bullshit, but they cannot speak out it loudly because they get paid for not doing it.
[14:23.260 --> 14:29.740]  And so that's a situation hopefully we as a hacker scene do not get in.
[14:29.900 --> 14:35.080]  And I mean, we could close this session with how the whole Congress started here.
[14:35.360 --> 14:43.960]  It was something about, please do not sign NDAs because it makes you impossible to not speak out what's happening.
[14:44.680 --> 14:48.580]  And I mean, that's what hackers should be aware of.
[14:48.580 --> 14:52.280]  So, okay, to try this...
[14:52.280 --> 14:59.080]  A few minutes ago you mentioned the readers of certain corporations as aiming for tighter control pressuring governments.
[14:59.540 --> 15:04.400]  Could you try to give a more complete listing of which
[15:11.370 --> 15:20.190]  corporations, say, are the most interested in?
[15:21.010 --> 15:23.490]  Depends what development you're talking about.
[15:24.970 --> 15:27.050]  There's a number of things going on in parallel.
[15:27.370 --> 15:28.190]  There's control.
[15:28.530 --> 15:40.930]  The publishing industry, which is basically an industry of middlemen, paying very little to whoever creates content or creative product, and then getting a lot of money from the consumers.
[15:40.930 --> 15:47.470]  The publishing industry is, of course, in its own fight with the internet and this whole global networking thing that's happening.
[15:47.790 --> 15:48.990]  That's one thing.
[15:49.270 --> 15:57.410]  And the obvious players in that are the movie houses, the big publishing companies.
[15:58.370 --> 16:00.690]  Then there's this intelligence angle.
[16:00.890 --> 16:08.910]  There's the industry of government spying on its citizens for corporate intelligence, for political intelligence.
[16:10.110 --> 16:19.730]  So there's a lot of parallel developments going on, and the big players in that are obviously the ones that make the most money out of the existing situation continuing as it is.
[16:22.130 --> 16:28.710]  And I'm not sure, it makes sense to give you a list of like, these companies are evil and these aren't.
[16:29.390 --> 16:31.430]  It depends what issue it's about.
[16:31.490 --> 16:32.270]  There are mercenaries too.
[16:32.450 --> 16:32.790]  Sorry?
[16:32.910 --> 16:38.090]  They're now kind of commercial counter-intelligence for hire, public relations agencies and things like that.
[16:38.190 --> 16:43.170]  They've been pretty underground for a while, but lately now it's being touted as a service as a value add.
[16:43.750 --> 16:51.130]  You know, go in and hack your competitors, spin their wheels, whatever, economic espionage, competition, whatever.
[16:51.450 --> 16:53.290]  It's a mercenary service.
[16:53.490 --> 16:54.950]  It's not based on ideology anymore.
[16:55.570 --> 17:08.850]  You know, from the government level, to talk about the National Counter-Intelligence Center, NACIC.gov, the Ruby website and the video, that's the corporate espionage for the government.
[17:09.050 --> 17:15.750]  Steele alluded to it last night, but he didn't identify in the 80s as NACIC, National Counter-Intelligence.
[17:16.210 --> 17:24.670]  But also, the size of the government in the United States, at least it's a commercial industry now, where people just do it, you know, they don't give a damn booty.
[17:24.970 --> 17:28.290]  They're gonna spin, they just pay them, and they'll go after the target.
[17:28.830 --> 17:31.810]  So, you know, the threats are different now.
[17:31.990 --> 17:35.790]  It's not only legal threats, it's competitive threats as well.
[17:35.790 --> 17:41.530]  And this is a cutting-edge, real mercenary commercial enterprise now.
[17:41.870 --> 17:42.810]  It's a lot of money.
[17:42.910 --> 17:47.190]  A lot of the big PR agencies all will be, you know, no voltage, catch up all these guys.
[17:47.410 --> 17:48.130]  They're all involved.
[17:49.450 --> 17:55.790]  What helps for me is not to look at the current political situation as them and us.
[17:56.470 --> 17:58.850]  Them is as diverse as us.
[17:59.050 --> 18:09.790]  Them is a bunch of interests which, for a large part, happen to point in a negative direction because that's where the money is, or because that's where the economic interests are.
[18:10.250 --> 18:16.270]  But them is diverse, and them can be turned on themselves as easily as we can be turned on ourselves.
[18:18.790 --> 18:37.070]  So, I think it's not very productive to look for the master plan or the evil leaders behind the screens, even though in some cases there are evil plots behind the screens, but to look for sets of interests which may be pointing in the same direction and to look for ways to turn these interests onto each other.
[18:40.070 --> 18:46.110]  We're running out of time, so I would like to take one or two more questions or points if there are any and then wrap it up.
[18:49.950 --> 18:53.190]  I've been following the hacker scene for about four years now.
[18:53.450 --> 18:55.170]  I'm an assistant man.
[18:55.510 --> 18:57.970]  I'm a partner in a small e-commerce site.
[18:58.330 --> 18:59.070]  And one of the things...
[18:59.410 --> 19:05.830]  I mean, I really, you know, I really like a lot of things that happen at these conferences and a lot of the ideas will come out here.
[19:06.010 --> 19:08.330]  But there's another side of the point here too.
[19:09.050 --> 19:16.510]  I mean, I personally see fraud occur on my website and it's not hackers, but it's people who think they're hackers.
[19:16.510 --> 19:21.350]  So part of the problem, you know, a hacker community, yeah, you've got to...
[19:21.350 --> 19:31.130]  you've got to... you want that respectability so that you can be hackers and counter, you know, repressive, you know, government surveillance and that kind of thing.
[19:31.210 --> 19:41.970]  But on the other side of the point, there's also, you know, for every person here who takes that seriously, there's somebody else out there who's, like, thinks they're a secret kitty or something like that.
[19:42.070 --> 19:46.410]  And they're out there in this plane committing crime and it's giving this whole scene a bad name.
[19:47.090 --> 19:57.530]  And so there are acceptable uses for things like digital signatures to create trusted transactions and trusted end user parties.
[19:58.750 --> 20:09.150]  And, you know, at the end of the day, there's got to be a way to know or at least have some assurances that the person who's giving you money on the other end hasn't stolen it from something else.
[20:09.410 --> 20:12.210]  I mean, that's, you know, that's part of just how we have the key business.
[20:13.090 --> 20:16.710]  I don't have any solutions, but, I mean, that's an issue there.
[20:17.670 --> 20:20.110]  You know, I think it's my second whole conference.
[20:20.250 --> 20:20.950]  I think it's great.
[20:21.090 --> 20:22.730]  I think the whole hacker scene is great.
[20:23.050 --> 20:27.270]  I got involved when my company, Land, got created by a little kid.
[20:27.650 --> 20:33.450]  First, my cherry, and I kind of, you know, tuned into the whole security aspect of things.
[20:33.830 --> 20:41.810]  And, you know, it really does sort of function with the, you know, it's just sort of a white society opinion of what I see going on.
[20:42.510 --> 20:42.670]  Thanks.
[20:42.910 --> 20:46.110]  Well, I don't see why you would get killed for that.
[20:46.370 --> 20:47.550]  I agree completely.
[20:47.710 --> 20:48.730]  I think a lot of people agree.
[20:51.390 --> 21:03.250]  The only thing you can do about things like that fraud you're talking about and these kids that think they're elite is to widely publish that this is going on, publish how it's being done, and teach people how to protect themselves from it.
[21:03.250 --> 21:10.730]  and try to draw attention to the fact that these systems that are being set up or have been set up aren't secure enough.
[21:11.710 --> 21:20.990]  And that we, I mean, credit card companies, for instance, the whole security of a credit card transaction is that nobody knows this number.
[21:23.150 --> 21:29.370]  And these credit card companies have set up a notoriously insecure system for all these payments worldwide that are happening.
[21:31.510 --> 21:45.570]  They're charging whatever happens in fraud, they're charging back on all of us, either as merchants or as consumers, except for the social cost of all this crime that wouldn't otherwise be occurring.
[21:46.410 --> 21:48.690]  And they're charging that back on society.
[21:48.930 --> 21:50.810]  And therefore, again, on all of us.
[21:51.010 --> 21:52.810]  So they don't have any of the burdens.
[21:52.950 --> 21:54.770]  We get all the burdens and they get all the profit.
[21:55.970 --> 21:59.790]  Had we not accepted that as a society, had we said, well, screw you.
[21:59.890 --> 22:01.130]  You've got to fix your own problems.
[22:01.170 --> 22:08.750]  If you call this a secure system, if you think this is how payments are going to work in a networked society, well, then you deal with the problems.
[22:08.830 --> 22:17.770]  You pay for the law enforcement, and you can't charge any of that fraud back on your consumers or on the people that are using your system.
[22:17.790 --> 22:20.670]  You'll just have to pay for that out of profits.
[22:21.510 --> 22:23.210]  Then that would have been long fixed.
[22:23.890 --> 22:24.850]  So we're...
[22:24.850 --> 22:34.750]  What else can we do but to draw attention to these problems and try to use the fact that we know how this is done in teaching other people?
[22:37.840 --> 22:38.900]  One more there?
[22:39.260 --> 22:41.760]  I was just going to answer that question.
[22:41.900 --> 22:42.720]  What else can we do?
[22:43.120 --> 22:44.900]  I think we can also like...
[22:44.900 --> 22:49.240]  I think the media has tried to make hackers out as a bad thing and we as hack...
[22:49.240 --> 22:51.460]  or those of us here...
[22:51.460 --> 22:53.120]  I don't want to call myself a hacker.
[22:53.430 --> 22:53.640]  I'm not.
[22:55.960 --> 22:57.450]  But I am in the community.
[22:57.720 --> 23:01.220]  And hackers can try to like...
[23:01.220 --> 23:12.930]  the script kiddies can start maybe learning that they're not liked by the rest of the hackers and that they're not elite and that they're not cool for just cracking into, you know, people's stuff and like making a ruckus.
[23:13.820 --> 23:19.540]  So that's what else we can do on a global level is make it, you know, not cool to be a dumb cracker.
[23:20.210 --> 23:21.670]  And so that at least, you know...
[23:21.670 --> 23:22.740]  Breaking their legs works.
[23:23.840 --> 23:24.280]  Sorry?
[23:25.380 --> 23:26.430]  Breaking their legs works.
[23:26.780 --> 23:31.760]  In a way, a lot of us, at least I started out as a script kiddie except it wasn't called that.
[23:32.170 --> 23:40.040]  But I'm not proud of a lot of things I did when I was like 14, 15 years old and learning all this technology.
[23:40.320 --> 23:47.080]  But it was my way of sort of pissing off people in power or pissing off people that were...
[23:48.020 --> 23:59.020]  And I was talking to a room full of military brass in Washington at some point and they were trying to understand this hacker thing and why are you doing this?
[23:59.020 --> 24:00.320]  And I said, gentlemen, listen.
[24:01.190 --> 24:11.000]  When all of you were young, and of course you all were very good, but a lot of kids were trying to piss off older people because that's just what young kids do.
[24:11.210 --> 24:22.020]  And all they needed to do was wear their hair long or walk around with a Vietnam sticker on their bike or car or whatever.
[24:22.020 --> 24:25.540]  And that would be enough to piss off older people.
[24:26.060 --> 24:33.720]  Right now, hacking into military systems is pretty much the only thing you can still do as a 14 or 15 year old to piss you guys off.
[24:36.560 --> 24:37.950]  And that sort of works.
[24:39.560 --> 24:43.840]  I think it's part of human development.
[24:44.040 --> 24:53.400]  That's how we learn, that's how we find our place in society, whether it's with a spray can or a lot of people just have a period where they piss other people off.
[24:53.520 --> 24:59.460]  And we have to bend... of course we have to try to bend that into more productive ways of pissing them off.
[25:00.840 --> 25:06.710]  I don't think a lot of kiddies are breaking into these sites just as a way of rebelling.
[25:06.930 --> 25:13.500]  A lot of kiddies will break into military sites because it's cool and their mates will think they're elite.
[25:14.740 --> 25:20.100]  It's more down to trying to look big and trying to make yourself feel and look powerful.
[25:20.340 --> 25:22.170]  And there is... it's fun.
[25:22.430 --> 25:23.100]  There's a buzz.
[25:23.260 --> 25:24.000]  It's great, you know?
[25:29.720 --> 25:32.120]  We have to show these kids...
[25:32.700 --> 25:33.060]  Right.
[25:33.480 --> 25:34.800]  And that's the point, yeah.
[25:35.680 --> 25:41.960]  This building from, like, you know, 1100 is kind of bad.
[25:42.300 --> 25:54.460]  And, you know, and sometimes, like, you know, coming together as a group with your friends and making a beautiful mural on the side of, like, a really gross building, and, you know, that is, like, maybe a political mural even, you know, is actually good.
[25:55.240 --> 26:09.800]  In other words, we've got to show... in other words, we've got to show these kids that there is a community that they can grow up in which respects some of the technical excellence or some of the technical tricks that they're involved in, and that, yes,
[26:09.900 --> 26:13.600]  there is a responsible way to grow up doing stuff like that.
[26:13.800 --> 26:19.340]  And so what we need is to invent projects where this energy can get into.
[26:19.640 --> 26:21.540]  So that's, for me, the point.
[26:22.720 --> 26:23.220]  Definitely.
[26:30.310 --> 26:32.290]  We're out of time, so we've got to go.
[26:32.730 --> 26:33.370]  See you later.
[26:33.570 --> 26:33.870]  Cheers.