[00:37.880 --> 00:43.320]  Ladies and gentlemen, it's time for Hacking... I Cracked the Hacker Myths.
[01:08.440 --> 01:16.680]  Well, I'd like to thank you very much for showing up to this panel discussion on Cracking Hacker Myths, a scientific study to find the real story.
[01:16.680 --> 01:25.740]  And I thought first what I'd do would be to start by answering the question, why... I'm sorry, this is better?
[01:25.920 --> 01:26.760]  Closer to the mic.
[01:26.960 --> 01:27.480]  This is better?
[01:27.740 --> 01:28.240]  Thank you.
[01:28.340 --> 01:29.000]  Okay, great.
[01:29.500 --> 01:33.000]  I thought I'd start off by answering the question, who are we?
[01:35.240 --> 01:41.060]  We're a research team of four people from Laurentian University School of Commerce in Sudbury, Ontario, Canada.
[01:41.480 --> 01:47.200]  And if anybody's familiar where Toronto is located, we're about 200 miles north of there.
[01:48.080 --> 01:51.140]  Laurentian itself is a publicly funded university.
[01:51.580 --> 02:00.520]  It offers many four-degree... four-year degree programs and a number of master's degree programs, servicing about 6,000 full and part-time students.
[02:02.020 --> 02:09.600]  As you can see in the picture, something characteristic about Northern Ontario is lots of bush and lots of lakes.
[02:09.600 --> 02:15.660]  The campus itself spreads across about 750 acres and touches on about three lakes within the Sudbury region.
[02:16.600 --> 02:27.680]  Another aspect of Sudbury is, of course, the opposite extreme in the wintertime, is lots of snow and very cold.
[02:27.940 --> 02:32.480]  And Ed can attest to that in his dealings with us in the past.
[02:32.620 --> 02:34.500]  We're talking to him on the phone in the middle of winter.
[02:35.720 --> 02:41.740]  And what I'm going to do now is introduce the four members of our team, in no particular order.
[02:43.020 --> 02:46.400]  Starting with Dr. John Dodge.
[02:51.870 --> 02:52.770]  That's Microsoft.
[02:53.070 --> 02:53.550]  Don't worry about it.
[02:54.370 --> 02:55.990]  He lies on his side all the time.
[02:57.530 --> 03:01.670]  John, like the rest of us, see things from a very different perspective than the norm.
[03:02.490 --> 03:04.830]  And just a little bit of background on John.
[03:05.350 --> 03:08.330]  So you have an idea who he is, name to the face here.
[03:10.290 --> 03:13.530]  John's a business of business strategy and e-commerce at Laurentian University.
[03:14.510 --> 03:22.110]  He's been involved as management consultant and serves on board of directors of various business and nonprofit organizations.
[03:22.750 --> 03:26.370]  And he's also on the editorial board of the business strategy and environmental journal.
[03:27.090 --> 03:37.990]  Previous to that, he had a life, I guess, as a somewhat of a real job, we think, as the vice president of a very large mining and development company.
[03:38.190 --> 03:40.710]  And he's also a CEO of a venture capital firm.
[03:43.070 --> 03:43.850]  Next one, Yana.
[03:44.030 --> 03:44.170]  Thanks.
[03:47.090 --> 03:48.250]  This is yours truly.
[03:48.750 --> 03:55.790]  Aside from leaning against trees and swatting mosquitoes, I'm a recent graduate of the MBA program at Laurentian.
[03:56.190 --> 03:59.050]  I've got 12 years experience in the field of IT.
[03:59.610 --> 04:05.810]  In particular, information technology, customer relationship management.
[04:06.270 --> 04:16.410]  I'm also a recognized contributor to the information technology infrastructure library created by the Center for Computer and Telecommunications Agency in the United Kingdom.
[04:20.590 --> 04:21.930]  My goodness, that's slow.
[04:21.930 --> 04:22.930]  This is Yano.
[04:24.490 --> 04:29.230]  Yano is just completing his BCom degree at Laurentian.
[04:29.630 --> 04:33.170]  And he plans on eventually getting a degree in IT management.
[04:34.790 --> 04:35.650]  Master's level.
[04:35.990 --> 04:39.510]  His interests include cooking gourmet meals and hamster keeping.
[04:40.190 --> 04:43.670]  And apparently, he eats lots of cheese and suffers from download rigor mortis.
[04:45.370 --> 04:51.830]  Next, we have Dr. Bernadette Schell, also known as Bernie S.
[04:51.990 --> 04:52.930]  This is our version of it.
[04:54.410 --> 05:03.430]  And Bernie is an internationally recognized expert in human resource management and has been recently appointed as director of the School of Commerce at Laurentian.
[05:03.770 --> 05:11.570]  She's an accomplished author and role respected in the fields of pornography community standards, franchise legislation, and stress management.
[05:11.970 --> 05:16.890]  And she's also the recipient this year of the Research Excellence Award from Laurentian.
[05:18.070 --> 05:25.430]  Now that I've babbled enough about who we are, just so you understand, let's take a look at the study.
[05:26.470 --> 05:28.830]  Well, why is it that we engaged in this study?
[05:29.250 --> 05:37.150]  Well, about a year or so ago, the four of us had gotten together and noticed that there was a lot of strange reports in the news about hackers.
[05:37.370 --> 05:39.010]  Wonderful things that hackers have done.
[05:40.030 --> 05:47.630]  And we had to begin to wonder why it is that we're seeing this stuff in the news or what's being reported by authorities.
[05:47.930 --> 06:00.310]  Because from an organizational behavioral perspective and a business perspective, most of the stuff it is that we're reading in the media and we're seeing statements from authorities do not make any sense whatsoever.
[06:00.930 --> 06:08.310]  And so consequently, we came to the belief that hackerdom is misunderstood and grossly misrepresented to the public.
[06:08.690 --> 06:19.790]  And so our objective became to try to dispel some of the myths and provide the public and organizations with a balanced view of hackers in society and their contributions.
[06:21.370 --> 06:27.870]  Now, what we wanted to do is answer the question, why are we here at H2K?
[06:29.510 --> 06:31.830]  Well, simply, we need to learn more about you.
[06:32.150 --> 06:41.630]  Over the last year, we've talked to numerous hackers around the world and the response contrary to the depiction by media is that you guys are very helpful.
[06:41.630 --> 06:51.830]  And you've done your utmost to provide us with resources, contact names, supply us with as much information as you can.
[06:53.170 --> 06:59.630]  And what we were trying to do in order to dispel some of the mess was use a scientific tool.
[06:59.910 --> 07:10.670]  And since from a research, there seemed to be very little science that had been done to try to properly represent hackers for who they are and their contributions.
[07:11.430 --> 07:13.990]  So consequently, we've devised a survey.
[07:14.450 --> 07:17.710]  And some of you have conceded to engage in the survey.
[07:17.870 --> 07:22.090]  And we've kept it, tried to ensure it is a complete anonymity.
[07:22.930 --> 07:33.970]  Some of you, of course, given your experiences with dealing with law enforcement and other authorities, you've been very apprehensive about conducting these.
[07:34.250 --> 07:36.870]  And we quite well understand that and we respect that.
[07:37.130 --> 07:45.950]  So we thought we'd come to H2K and meet you in person and see if it is we could encourage you to engage in the study.
[07:46.430 --> 07:53.810]  Now over the last year, we've been working with Ed Cummings, also known as Bernie S.
[07:54.710 --> 08:06.150]  And I'd like to introduce Ed right now just so that he can talk to you about the study and his involvement and any perceptions that it is that he has or any comments you'd like to make about us or the work it is we've been doing.
[08:06.550 --> 08:07.030]  Ed?
[08:07.290 --> 08:07.990]  Thanks, Kevin.
[08:09.130 --> 08:14.550]  I got an email from this Bernie S., Dr. Bernie Schell.
[08:15.550 --> 08:16.650]  Was it late last year?
[08:16.930 --> 08:17.070]  Yeah.
[08:17.810 --> 08:23.630]  She's apparently been trying to track me down for a couple of months, unsuccessfully.
[08:23.870 --> 08:26.230]  How many telephone books did you go through?
[08:27.330 --> 08:27.730]  Numerous.
[08:28.650 --> 08:34.110]  But I was quite surprised to hear somebody had gone through such efforts to try to track me down for whatever reason.
[08:36.370 --> 08:41.110]  And she got to talking with me about this study they were trying to conduct.
[08:41.390 --> 08:52.790]  And I was pretty interested in it because I, like all of you, had seen all these misrepresentations in the press and had myself been subjected to some misrepresentations in the press and by law enforcement in the past.
[08:53.250 --> 09:08.550]  And I thought anything that could be done to help dispel some of these misrepresentations and present an objective viewpoint of what hackers are about in the grand scheme of things would be a good idea.
[09:09.450 --> 09:24.550]  There's certainly been a very lopsided view in the public mind, thanks to various government and law enforcement agencies and the media who just doesn't take the time to thoroughly research and investigate stories.
[09:24.550 --> 09:42.150]  If you pick nine out of ten stories in the press, in newspapers, websites, television, radio, you'll find just, as Kevin mentioned, just explanations that make no sense logically or for any reason.
[09:43.970 --> 09:58.190]  So hopefully this study will give them enough data to put together some real statistics as to the makeup of hackers, what their goals, motivations are, who they are, demographics, that sort of thing.
[09:58.530 --> 09:59.930]  They don't want to know your names.
[10:01.850 --> 10:07.250]  They knew my name because they got in touch with me, but my life's an open book anyway, so I don't really care.
[10:08.090 --> 10:15.910]  I have actually worked with these people on the phone and by email for the past six months or so and have found them to be very above board.
[10:16.470 --> 10:21.830]  I was a little apprehensive initially thinking, well, what's their motivation here?
[10:22.050 --> 10:24.190]  Is this another slanted study?
[10:24.390 --> 10:26.510]  And in fact, I think they're being very objective.
[10:26.790 --> 10:32.310]  And we all have something to gain here by helping them do this study.
[10:32.510 --> 10:45.350]  So I would strongly encourage anybody here to stop by their table near the hallway here, pick up one of their surveys, maybe even concede to being interviewed by them for, what is it, 10 or 15 minutes?
[10:45.630 --> 10:46.670]  Just a short talk.
[10:47.030 --> 10:48.450]  They don't have to know your name.
[10:48.650 --> 10:53.630]  They're particularly interested in people who have been charged with, quote, hacking related crimes.
[10:53.810 --> 11:00.290]  But basically anybody who would represent themselves as a hacker, maybe to a friend or a trusted colleague sort of thing.
[11:01.430 --> 11:07.010]  So all I can do is tell you after dealing with these people for months, they're really above board.
[11:07.530 --> 11:09.390]  There's nothing underhanded about what they're doing.
[11:09.990 --> 11:13.250]  And they're really striving for the utmost in objectivity in the study.
[11:13.550 --> 11:18.250]  So I guess I'll hand this off to Bernie or John.
[11:18.910 --> 11:19.030]  Okay.
[11:19.330 --> 11:25.450]  Well, before we continue in the presentation, we wanted to present something to Ed.
[11:26.370 --> 11:29.970]  We've been working away with Ed now for a long time.
[11:30.050 --> 11:30.350]  And you get me a t-shirt.
[11:30.490 --> 11:31.050]  That's fine.
[11:31.150 --> 11:31.770]  And a t-shirt.
[11:31.950 --> 11:33.030]  He's happy with the t-shirt.
[11:35.790 --> 11:39.150]  Over the course of the winter, we were talking to Ed on the phone.
[11:39.390 --> 11:40.830]  And quite often, we were talking to him.
[11:41.230 --> 11:46.370]  One time anyway, he was trying to assemble a space heater because the floor in his room was quite cold.
[11:46.510 --> 11:47.510]  I thought it was cold at my house.
[11:47.650 --> 11:50.370]  And then they told me it was like 30-some below zero where they were.
[11:50.730 --> 11:51.090]  Yeah.
[11:51.770 --> 11:55.790]  So at any rate, we decided to get you just a small token of appreciation.
[11:55.790 --> 11:56.170]  A space heater.
[11:57.350 --> 11:58.210]  A little bit nice.
[12:01.220 --> 12:01.940]  That's all right.
[12:02.920 --> 12:03.600]  There we go.
[12:07.460 --> 12:08.440]  Should I just look at this now?
[12:11.560 --> 12:13.300]  We'd really like to embarrass you right now.
[12:13.500 --> 12:14.820]  So you can go ahead and...
[12:14.820 --> 12:15.600]  Oh, that's nice.
[12:16.180 --> 12:16.540]  Very nice.
[12:16.920 --> 12:18.660]  That's for your iced tea.
[12:19.040 --> 12:19.400]  Oh, okay.
[12:20.960 --> 12:21.360]  And...
[12:21.360 --> 12:21.880]  Socks.
[12:22.200 --> 12:23.080]  To keep your feet warm.
[12:23.320 --> 12:23.540]  Okay.
[12:24.100 --> 12:25.100]  Well, thanks very much.
[12:25.780 --> 12:26.460]  I'm touched.
[12:26.940 --> 12:27.560]  Thanks, Ed.
[12:27.740 --> 12:28.020]  We appreciate it.
[12:28.020 --> 12:28.820]  I'll figure out of this now.
[12:34.230 --> 12:37.510]  Okay, so now we want to take a look at our media gallery.
[12:38.410 --> 12:39.250]  Fact or fiction?
[12:39.550 --> 12:42.290]  And what we wanted to do is have this as an interactive session.
[12:42.290 --> 12:52.790]  And I'm going to put up just a few samples of some quotations within the last few months from various different media sources on various different topics, but about hackers.
[12:53.990 --> 12:58.950]  And we'd like to get your input or reaction to these as we go through.
[12:59.190 --> 13:01.610]  So I'm going to go through and I'll read some of the quotes, the headlines.
[13:01.910 --> 13:06.330]  And if anybody would like to come up and give your comments on this, we'd greatly appreciate it.
[13:07.110 --> 13:09.930]  The first one from the London Free Press.
[13:10.250 --> 13:12.110]  Nothing petty about e-crime.
[13:14.490 --> 13:18.750]  Internet hackers deserve to be treated as the criminals they are.
[13:19.510 --> 13:21.330]  The story continues.
[13:22.190 --> 13:24.410]  Hackers are akin to fire setters.
[13:24.590 --> 13:30.790]  People who get their jollies by setting buildings alight and watching gleefully from a distance as the flames lick the sky.
[13:30.790 --> 13:37.070]  But instead of using matches, hackers use computer viruses and programs designed to bombard the target computer.
[13:38.670 --> 13:43.990]  People may have a sneaking admiration for young hackers whose technical savvy can cripple corporate giants.
[13:44.170 --> 13:45.750]  But that's misplaced admiration.
[13:46.230 --> 13:50.870]  Unless they also want to admire the demolition skills of an arsonist with their next breath.
[13:52.490 --> 13:56.110]  Would anybody like to give me your reaction?
[13:56.250 --> 13:58.050]  I'm hearing laughter, so...
[13:58.050 --> 13:59.710]  How many people agree with that representation?
[14:01.450 --> 14:02.430]  I don't see any hints.
[14:03.630 --> 14:05.290]  Are those direct quotes?
[14:05.510 --> 14:06.510]  Is this a column?
[14:06.750 --> 14:07.990]  Is it an opinion piece?
[14:08.270 --> 14:09.510]  We don't know who's saying...
[14:09.510 --> 14:12.990]  We don't know if that's the reporter quoting somebody.
[14:13.270 --> 14:14.970]  Is the reporter putting his own spin on it?
[14:15.090 --> 14:17.390]  Or if it's a columnist or an op-ed piece?
[14:17.390 --> 14:19.230]  This is actually a column.
[14:21.110 --> 14:26.270]  But aside from whoever ascribed it, what do you think of the content?
[14:27.330 --> 14:30.390]  The content is obviously sensationalistic.
[14:31.250 --> 14:32.850]  But that is much different.
[14:33.010 --> 14:42.210]  A columnist range all the way from conservatives like George Will to the rules and so on.
[14:42.210 --> 14:48.530]  So this guy could be, you know, a Rush Limbaugh type out to, you know, just be throwing bombs to get a reaction.
[14:48.790 --> 14:49.810]  I think that's the point.
[14:49.930 --> 14:52.090]  I want to know what your reaction is to his bombs.
[14:52.690 --> 14:53.910]  A hacker conference.
[14:53.930 --> 14:54.490]  It's stupid.
[14:56.290 --> 15:08.170]  This guy's obviously, you know, misguided in talking about, you know, unless they also want to admire the demolition skills of an arsonist, you know, with their next breath.
[15:08.170 --> 15:10.150]  And there's several words in there missing out.
[15:10.510 --> 15:12.470]  Yeah, it sounds like a Stephen King novel, right?
[15:12.970 --> 15:13.270]  Well,
[15:16.680 --> 15:17.560]  it's sort of the packers.
[15:19.240 --> 15:20.380]  And you have your arsonist.
[15:21.740 --> 15:25.760]  Packet-looking actors that don't know how to do anything except steal other kids.
[15:26.200 --> 15:27.440]  You know, it's a single viruses.
[15:29.760 --> 15:31.620]  And we've never heard any of this.
[15:31.880 --> 15:38.600]  Yeah, but this guy, this guy, it sounds like, and we could accuse you of doing the same thing.
[15:38.600 --> 15:40.800]  We've only seen selected quotes here.
[15:41.100 --> 15:46.320]  You know, three paragraphs out of what was probably at least a 700-word column.
[15:46.460 --> 15:47.600]  Yeah, I have... okay.
[15:47.860 --> 15:48.380]  That's fine.
[15:49.840 --> 15:56.020]  It does sound slander, but it sounds like from these three pieces, he's painting all hackers with a pretty broad brush.
[15:56.900 --> 15:57.340]  Okay.
[16:09.950 --> 16:12.110]  I think the pair of description is some of what he's doing.
[16:13.150 --> 16:13.590]  Okay.
[16:14.130 --> 16:15.870]  Just doing damage for the heck of it.
[16:16.570 --> 16:16.870]  Okay.
[16:17.030 --> 16:18.350]  Just one more comment on this one.
[16:18.550 --> 16:20.490]  That's the main problem of the media that I see.
[16:20.490 --> 16:22.550]  They group us up into one large group.
[16:22.750 --> 16:23.030]  There's...
[16:23.030 --> 16:23.610]  There's a...
[16:23.610 --> 16:25.550]  There's a whole spectrum of hackers.
[16:26.230 --> 16:26.630]  There's...
[16:26.630 --> 16:27.670]  There's people that...
[16:33.870 --> 16:35.210]  You're not worried about the media.
[16:37.590 --> 16:38.090]  Like...
[16:47.110 --> 16:47.610]  But...
[16:48.650 --> 16:49.150]  Like...
[16:49.150 --> 16:50.070]  The media is
[16:56.000 --> 16:56.480]  the same way.
[16:56.620 --> 16:57.120]  Okay.
[16:57.380 --> 16:57.520]  Right.
[16:58.180 --> 17:01.820]  So they're not trying to get to actually know and differentiate who's who.
[17:02.340 --> 17:05.340]  I'm just going to move on because we have a number of different quotes.
[17:05.340 --> 17:11.280]  I just want to interject that, you know, everyone sitting here can see that for what it is.
[17:11.460 --> 17:28.160]  But for the average member of the public who may not have any exposure to maybe computers at all or to people who are creative in their use, I would think that a good percentage of the public might swallow this garbage.
[17:28.160 --> 17:34.460]  And there's just very little in the way of balanced information being promulgated in the media.
[17:34.620 --> 17:48.620]  And that's what I think these folks are trying to do is to actually gather some accurate data, put together a scientific study, present their findings, and hopefully have that covered and made available to...
[17:48.620 --> 17:52.860]  It will be made available to everyone sitting here and, in fact, if you...
[17:52.860 --> 17:58.620]  I guess you'll get an early copy of it if you conduct one of the questionnaires.
[17:59.540 --> 18:00.380]  But anyway, go ahead, Kevin.
[18:00.980 --> 18:01.220]  Okay.
[18:01.280 --> 18:03.400]  Our next one is a statement about ethics.
[18:03.700 --> 18:12.540]  That there's a vacuum in cyberspace and that there need to be new ways of teaching right from wrong urged in the wake of related recent computer crimes.
[18:12.540 --> 18:15.700]  And I'm just going to focus on the bottom quote.
[18:17.120 --> 18:23.420]  The standards of conduct that guide our lives are premised on the notion that we're going to have face-to-face relations with people.
[18:23.960 --> 18:28.260]  But in the virtual world, that reinforcement dissipates.
[18:28.700 --> 18:32.140]  Maybe I could have some comments about what you think on that statement.
[18:33.620 --> 18:35.300]  I think that's pretty accurate.
[18:35.300 --> 18:35.320]  Sure.
[18:35.880 --> 18:38.360]  I see the way people conduct themselves.
[18:38.940 --> 18:45.280]  I mean, by and large, generally, a lot of people don't use the same standards that they do when you talk to them.
[18:45.640 --> 18:49.320]  And they have just with relation with everything.
[18:49.500 --> 18:55.900]  I mean, there's a very low quality of conversation.
[18:57.020 --> 18:57.540]  Discourse.
[18:58.440 --> 18:58.960]  Okay.
[19:00.800 --> 19:04.720]  So do you think it is ethics disappear because you're online?
[19:04.720 --> 19:06.580]  Well, someone, yes.
[19:07.100 --> 19:07.500]  Okay.
[19:08.680 --> 19:11.720]  Being anonymous creates a lot of boldness.
[19:12.300 --> 19:16.940]  Just as doing a survey with your neighbor might change the answers.
[19:17.620 --> 19:25.220]  Being on the internet where you could be whoever you want, or be someone who they know you are, could make a difference in anybody's behavior.
[19:25.860 --> 19:26.380]  Okay.
[19:27.920 --> 19:28.580]  Over there.
[19:28.640 --> 19:37.220]  Also, you have the fact that on the internet, a million people go ahead and see themselves as part of a crowd, part of the millions.
[19:37.520 --> 19:38.560]  And the family
[19:45.600 --> 19:46.860]  will not do.
[19:47.640 --> 19:54.100]  And go ahead and do it anyways because they think that there are only one of the millions watching this anyways.
[19:55.480 --> 19:56.080]  Okay.
[19:56.480 --> 19:57.400]  And one more.
[19:59.320 --> 20:02.880]  I disagree with folks that are saying that
[20:09.510 --> 20:11.640]  anonymity is already in society.
[20:12.050 --> 20:16.050]  If you look at New York City as an example, it's huge.
[20:16.050 --> 20:19.400]  And people are bringing that hugeness to the net.
[20:19.600 --> 20:25.460]  So it's not the technology we should equate moral action with the technology.
[20:25.460 --> 20:30.770]  So in New York City, you'd be willing to just walk up to somebody and be behind and put in and have poor conduct?
[20:31.230 --> 20:32.250]  Just face to face?
[20:32.490 --> 20:32.840]  No.
[20:32.970 --> 20:34.160]  I'm not saying that.
[20:38.290 --> 20:46.290]  Technology and people's moral behavior, that there's something more going on there, and that perhaps people are bringing what you
[20:57.550 --> 20:59.470]  do, that you can get away with on the net.
[21:01.550 --> 21:02.610]  You're sitting at IRC.
[21:02.710 --> 21:03.870]  You can say what you want to somebody.
[21:03.950 --> 21:06.110]  You walk up to the street and you say something to somebody.
[21:06.490 --> 21:09.910]  You can, you know, it's to get a fight or, you know, any other.
[21:10.550 --> 21:15.870]  There it goes who you are when you say something, then you're going to be unresponsible for that.
[21:15.870 --> 21:17.550]  So it's, it's a bit more different.
[21:17.710 --> 21:20.690]  I mean, if you have a homeless person on the street, there's...
[21:24.280 --> 21:28.740]  If you probably go up to Laurentian, people probably say hi to each other on the streets.
[21:28.940 --> 21:31.680]  Yeah, I have a question before we continue.
[21:31.920 --> 21:34.940]  Can you hear in the back when somebody's making the comments up to the front?
[21:35.640 --> 21:39.760]  It probably, I think, if people wouldn't mind to come up to the mics when there are mic here.
[21:39.880 --> 21:41.780]  We only have one, but we're seeing some good discussion.
[21:42.040 --> 21:44.200]  Yeah, we're seeing some good discussion.
[21:44.360 --> 21:45.080]  There's two here.
[21:45.260 --> 21:46.660]  I'd like to interject something.
[21:46.660 --> 21:47.240]  You're just...
[21:47.240 --> 21:50.200]  I came in late, so excuse me if you started to answer.
[21:50.380 --> 21:57.060]  But the study that you're doing, did you get a grant to do this?
[21:57.360 --> 22:02.060]  Were you doing this all, you know, on spec, as it were?
[22:02.220 --> 22:03.300]  And where are you going to publish it?
[22:03.960 --> 22:07.500]  Well, the research is actually being funded by ourselves.
[22:08.200 --> 22:09.120]  It's independent.
[22:09.400 --> 22:11.900]  There's no corporate agencies donating any money.
[22:12.060 --> 22:14.060]  We wanted to keep that kind of stuff out of it.
[22:14.620 --> 22:16.040]  We, I can speak.
[22:16.040 --> 22:19.340]  Like, in a sense, I'm the principal researcher along with Bernie Schell.
[22:20.200 --> 22:21.020]  We're funding...
[22:21.020 --> 22:24.000]  Our normal activity, we're employed by the university as professors.
[22:24.220 --> 22:26.040]  This is part of our academic research level.
[22:26.960 --> 22:31.920]  We're personally funding the travel for this out of our own professional allowance from the university this year.
[22:32.400 --> 22:38.100]  And we could have sought, in fact, support for this, and we didn't want to tarnish it.
[22:38.100 --> 22:44.260]  So we actually got a little grant from our small business development unit in the university and a few other things.
[22:44.460 --> 22:47.300]  But there's no external financing at all for this project.
[22:47.480 --> 22:53.500]  And it's... we're trying to keep it clean as it's been hard, but it's... we're a bit of a shoestring.
[22:53.500 --> 22:54.360]  There's a comment here?
[22:54.580 --> 22:55.740]  Yeah, I actually...
[22:58.520 --> 23:02.200]  Like, where are you intending to have this published?
[23:02.360 --> 23:06.080]  Like, looking at science or the Journal of Forensic Sciences or...
[23:07.120 --> 23:12.520]  Do you consider this... you've been calling it a scientific study, but...
[23:16.100 --> 23:21.300]  Well, I can... I think I could start the comment and then turn it over to Bernadette.
[23:22.740 --> 23:26.800]  We... the question was, where do we plan to publish this information?
[23:27.100 --> 23:28.580]  And in what form?
[23:29.840 --> 23:32.660]  We plan... I guess, look at the history.
[23:32.800 --> 23:36.420]  Bernie has published a couple of recent books by...
[23:36.420 --> 23:39.900]  And we would probably... we may end up publishing a book with some of the material.
[23:40.220 --> 23:41.680]  But that's down the road.
[23:41.980 --> 23:46.540]  We plan to publish some of the work on 2600.
[23:47.780 --> 23:54.800]  We've... if you fill out the form itself, we'll give you back an individual assessment of this.
[23:54.980 --> 23:58.340]  We're using standard techniques in the... in the... in the survey form.
[23:58.560 --> 24:01.760]  We plan to use credible sources.
[24:01.920 --> 24:04.960]  Now, that's not to say that some of it won't end up in the public media as well.
[24:05.860 --> 24:07.780]  But maybe, Bernie, you could add to that.
[24:09.380 --> 24:16.000]  Yes, we are really trying to keep this as objective as possible in our reporting.
[24:16.000 --> 24:28.820]  So, as we would typically do in any Referee Journal article, we would cite the mean responses and standard deviations and group responses, primarily at that group level.
[24:29.080 --> 24:33.980]  So that no individual could feel that his or her identity is in any way being released.
[24:35.120 --> 24:39.180]  We've already been contacted by a number of media people.
[24:39.380 --> 24:42.940]  I guess, desperate to have our findings.
[24:42.940 --> 24:59.420]  The one member that we have trusted so far, and this came after Bernie S's reviewing the situation, is Andreas and his team from Canadian Broadcasting Corporation in Toronto.
[25:00.280 --> 25:03.860]  Andreas does a show called Undercurrents.
[25:03.860 --> 25:13.500]  And I guess, in many ways, he's considered to be a rebel in the media field because he likes searching for the truth and not the popular answer.
[25:14.220 --> 25:21.060]  So, Bernie S has spoken to Andreas for a number of hours, as I understand it.
[25:21.060 --> 25:26.820]  And that is the only media group that we have committed to.
[25:27.060 --> 25:33.320]  And it's my understanding that they are coming to interview Bernie and some of your colleagues.
[25:33.900 --> 25:35.560]  They're actually coming down.
[25:35.660 --> 25:39.100]  Unfortunately, they couldn't make it this weekend for the conference for cost reasons.
[25:39.260 --> 25:44.700]  They're coming down Tuesday to interview some of the people involved with the Off the Hook radio show.
[25:44.700 --> 25:50.740]  And actually, part of their study is geared towards hacktivism as well.
[25:50.880 --> 25:54.040]  They wanted to cover that theme in addition.
[25:54.240 --> 25:58.160]  But they're very interested in, as they told me, in this study.
[25:58.760 --> 26:04.700]  Because there's really no real scientific data that's been available to the public on this.
[26:04.780 --> 26:06.860]  I mean, there's been plenty of anecdotal information.
[26:07.820 --> 26:10.980]  There may be some government studies done by law enforcement agencies.
[26:10.980 --> 26:16.900]  But certainly, we can't necessarily expect that to be unbiased, nor is it publicly available.
[26:17.340 --> 26:21.620]  So, this is really going to be an open book.
[26:22.320 --> 26:25.140]  Again, the names of the respondents are not the issue.
[26:25.380 --> 26:29.320]  They don't even want to know what your name is necessarily, unless you want to mail the copy of it or something.
[26:29.780 --> 26:35.760]  But in any case, your answers are just going to be compiled with all the others and used statistically.
[26:35.760 --> 26:42.160]  It's not anything you need to be concerned about, about your individual responses and how they'd be indexed to you.
[26:42.180 --> 26:43.760]  That's what we're concerned about for her.
[26:43.980 --> 26:44.240]  Uh-huh.
[26:45.020 --> 26:45.460]  Scientific.
[26:50.440 --> 26:52.780]  Scientific means that it's peer-reviewed.
[26:53.140 --> 27:00.480]  I mean, this lady here was just talking about what's more anthropological than whatever the other word she used was.
[27:02.830 --> 27:07.480]  Scientific surveys are peer-reviewed and are published in academic journals.
[27:08.220 --> 27:14.420]  Publishing something on 2600, for all the good that that is, doesn't make it scientific.
[27:15.440 --> 27:16.480]  I haven't heard anything...
[27:16.480 --> 27:17.440]  No, I...
[27:18.260 --> 27:19.240]  I think what...
[27:20.280 --> 27:22.060]  I'd like to address that directly.
[27:22.220 --> 27:27.080]  What I was trying to say, really, and I'm trying to skip over things quickly, is we're trying to make the data accessible.
[27:27.380 --> 27:29.120]  And that's why we said 2600.
[27:29.220 --> 27:30.120]  We're using...
[27:30.120 --> 27:31.940]  We're going to use standard tests.
[27:32.080 --> 27:33.140]  This is a very scientific...
[27:33.140 --> 27:35.760]  These are well-established questions that we're using.
[27:36.160 --> 27:38.660]  We're going to use good statistical tests on it.
[27:38.790 --> 27:39.160]  They'll be...
[27:39.160 --> 27:40.440]  Have to be peer-reviewed.
[27:40.620 --> 27:41.840]  You know, we have to...
[27:41.840 --> 27:42.080]  We have...
[27:42.080 --> 27:49.840]  And we had, in fact, before we could even deliver it here, we had to get this approved by the University Ethics Committee before we could deliver it here.
[27:49.960 --> 27:50.700]  So this...
[27:50.700 --> 27:58.750]  We have to go through hoops, believe it or not, before we can even administer this survey, and it's satisfied that it's being ethically done, and the data is going to be properly done...
[27:58.760 --> 28:00.790]  dealt with once we get it back home.
[28:01.420 --> 28:05.900]  And that if we say it's confidential, we have our own ethics review people to say, what are you doing?
[28:06.060 --> 28:06.720]  I mean, it's...
[28:07.080 --> 28:10.680]  It's part of this academic community in Canada anyway, and they take it very seriously.
[28:10.920 --> 28:13.460]  I don't know if I'm answering your question, but I'm trying to...
[28:31.760 --> 28:38.660]  I think that the way to address it, the best way to get accurate information is to get as many people as possible to fill out the survey form.
[28:39.060 --> 28:43.320]  If we do have ten quacks fill out the form, then we've got bad data.
[28:43.660 --> 28:50.360]  If we get a couple of hundred people here that we still have the ten quacks that are not going to skew the data, it's a concern of ours.
[28:50.360 --> 28:51.720]  So we really need your help.
[28:51.940 --> 28:56.440]  If you want to have a legitimate profile of what you...
[28:56.940 --> 29:03.500]  As one person said earlier, they felt, the way I interpreted it, that this isn't a homogeneous community.
[29:03.640 --> 29:08.380]  This has some black hats and has some white hats and some good people and some bad people.
[29:08.980 --> 29:16.240]  And there's a different variety of people, and I think we have a special group here, and we have to make sure we get a good cross-section, not just a few people.
[29:17.100 --> 29:18.760]  And that's the only way it will turn out nicely.
[29:18.760 --> 29:20.840]  I don't mean to take too much of the time.
[29:21.140 --> 29:21.500]  Okay.
[29:21.680 --> 29:24.000]  I think what we should do is just hold off for...
[29:24.000 --> 29:26.880]  We have a question and comment period later.
[29:27.060 --> 29:33.100]  And if anybody wants to stay after between six and seven, there's no other panel discussion during that time.
[29:33.220 --> 29:34.400]  If you want to talk to us, that would be great.
[29:34.600 --> 29:35.720]  I just want to move on.
[29:35.820 --> 29:39.300]  We have a couple of other interesting ones just to look at to get your idea on.
[29:41.120 --> 29:43.820]  If you want to put both of them up there, you know.
[29:44.840 --> 29:52.300]  An excerpt from Corporate Espionage from Ira Winkler makes a statement that almost all hackers are little more than nuisances.
[29:53.480 --> 30:01.520]  And he notes that there's only about 200 of 200 hackers in existence in the world, and that only these are computer geniuses.
[30:02.400 --> 30:03.800]  Any comments on that?
[30:04.460 --> 30:07.580]  Can you come up to the microphone or shout really loud?
[30:08.080 --> 30:10.280]  What are you guys saying is a hacker?
[30:10.580 --> 30:18.100]  I mean, it's a scientific study, and you have some expected results, and you're going out there trying to see what's going on.
[30:18.280 --> 30:20.720]  What are you suggesting a hacker is?
[30:20.720 --> 30:25.180]  And then what are you trying to collect and measure without the hacker?
[30:25.460 --> 30:30.460]  I mean, it seems like hacker is just overused.
[30:30.900 --> 30:38.280]  And that it's time to maybe let the public have that word, and then figure out what we really are.
[30:38.460 --> 30:42.080]  Because they have a preconception of a hacker as a computer criminal.
[30:43.280 --> 30:46.780]  And that's the popular, it seems, definition.
[30:46.780 --> 30:49.160]  And is that what you're trying to measure?
[30:49.440 --> 30:54.600]  Is that what the computer criminals, I guess, psyche is?
[30:54.920 --> 30:58.080]  Or are you trying to measure the computer enthusiasts?
[30:58.380 --> 31:05.460]  I think that probably you have a lot more computer enthusiasts replying to your survey than hackers.
[31:05.820 --> 31:06.260]  Yeah.
[31:06.720 --> 31:12.200]  What we'd like to do actually is get feedback from all of those groups.
[31:12.200 --> 31:17.220]  And we do know that there are many groups identified.
[31:17.760 --> 31:22.600]  Hackers, term crackers is used, script kitties, whereas dudes.
[31:23.380 --> 31:35.280]  And there are different behavior sets that people can identify, that people that are whereas dudes have specific activities that they like to focus on.
[31:35.380 --> 31:37.920]  And we'd like to understand why they focus on those.
[31:38.040 --> 31:39.520]  What makes them tick?
[31:39.640 --> 31:40.660]  Why do they like to do that?
[31:41.160 --> 31:43.700]  What is the benefit that they provide for society?
[31:43.960 --> 31:44.620]  How do they function?
[31:45.920 --> 31:47.780]  What do you guys call hacking?
[31:49.600 --> 31:58.130]  It's like if you're calling a scientific study to ask a notion as to what hacking is, how do you know the respondents are supposed to be?
[31:58.310 --> 31:58.690]  Okay.
[31:58.830 --> 32:06.850]  We do have some questions in there to try to differentiate people based on the type of activity that they engage in.
[32:07.230 --> 32:14.890]  And then what we can do, we'll be doing some statistical analysis based on some of those responses to see where does we have groups line up.
[32:15.990 --> 32:29.450]  I've been in consultation with Eric Raymond to get his feedback and others in the hacking community as to differentiation techniques for hackers versus every other group.
[32:30.130 --> 32:38.130]  One of the key elements that people seem to misunderstand and authorities and media seem to misunderstand is the notion of intent.
[32:39.130 --> 32:55.510]  You would think that a lot of lawyers that have been involved in these cases would really focus on intent because intent is what differentiates whether or not you've intentionally committed a crime or accidentally committed a crime, or even if a crime was not committed.
[32:55.770 --> 33:04.330]  So, yes, we do have some questions in there, but I won't spell out to you exactly what they are because we don't wish to bias any of the study results.
[33:30.870 --> 33:32.930]  I quite agree on your comments.
[33:33.210 --> 33:39.270]  Actually, having gone through his book, I did not find any references to support any statement that he had made.
[33:39.870 --> 33:46.550]  But I thought it is I'd introduce it to see what people's perspective was on the subject since it is.
[33:46.650 --> 33:50.590]  He was actually, I guess, a speaker back in 94 at HOPE.
[33:50.730 --> 33:52.090]  Yeah, we had him for entertainment value.
[33:52.210 --> 33:54.870]  We had him in 97 at Beyond HOPE.
[33:56.850 --> 33:58.150]  Okay, Yana, can you move on?
[34:04.070 --> 34:05.550]  It's really thinking about it.
[34:07.310 --> 34:07.710]  Okay.
[34:08.770 --> 34:11.570]  This was a great, a really great, interesting article.
[34:12.630 --> 34:13.710]  It's a guy thing.
[34:13.910 --> 34:15.930]  Why are there so few female hackers?
[34:17.710 --> 34:27.990]  It says, in fact, ask anybody who purports to know, from national geek expert John Katz to MIT cyber researcher Sherry Turkle to Michael Silwell, author of a portrait of J Random Hacker.
[34:28.130 --> 34:28.910]  It's unanimous.
[34:29.010 --> 34:29.790]  Hackers are male.
[34:31.070 --> 34:33.070]  Scruffily male, as they finish.
[34:33.890 --> 34:38.190]  Then it continues to say that it's a testosterone problem.
[34:40.350 --> 34:46.210]  Women are not into hacking for the same general reason that women are not interested in vandalizing stop signs and cars.
[34:47.650 --> 34:51.890]  They are not as drawn to the hostile elements of cyberspace as men are.
[34:53.610 --> 34:55.030]  And then the best one.
[34:55.470 --> 34:57.010]  This isn't about competence.
[34:57.750 --> 35:06.050]  Women have the brains and the skills to hack, but they're more interested in building communities and in more creative things like web design.
[35:06.990 --> 35:07.850]  Very creative.
[35:09.850 --> 35:13.350]  Any comments about the subject of women and creativity?
[35:17.500 --> 35:18.950]  He said, I village.
[35:22.040 --> 35:23.240]  Okay, over here.
[35:23.460 --> 35:26.520]  I think like a lot of things, it's a broad generalization.
[35:27.760 --> 35:36.300]  I mean, it's obviously not true for everyone, but then again, stereotypes are never true for every single person.
[35:36.300 --> 35:39.620]  So, it's just generalization.
[35:40.200 --> 35:42.280]  It's more opinion, not fact.
[35:42.640 --> 35:44.140]  And in the back there.
[35:44.360 --> 35:47.320]  Also, they're misrepresenting hacking.
[35:47.680 --> 35:51.340]  They're taking it to be just tedious instead of curiosity.
[35:51.890 --> 35:54.260]  And when we do have curiosity, we'll hack.
[35:54.890 --> 35:59.860]  It's not that they need to go out and destroy, and I think they're looking at it in the wrong sense.
[36:00.430 --> 36:03.350]  Yeah, there's quite a traditional flavor in this column.
[36:04.100 --> 36:09.240]  And actually, if you read the whole thing, I do have a copy of it if anybody wants to have a good, amusing read.
[36:10.960 --> 36:13.560]  There's nothing in here that's actually correct or factual.
[36:14.220 --> 36:16.640]  But it's published, and hey, it's got to be correct, right?
[36:17.860 --> 36:19.000]  We'll just move on to the next one.
[36:19.300 --> 36:19.640]  The
[36:25.020 --> 36:36.500]  question was whether or not we have, if we're checking any statistics on males versus females in the populace.
[36:37.160 --> 36:37.880]  Yes, we are.
[36:37.980 --> 36:39.820]  We do have questions with regards to that.
[36:41.280 --> 36:47.420]  I think Eric had told me it is that the guesstimated stat was about 15% were women.
[36:47.840 --> 36:52.360]  And I said to you about that in the last slide, when I looked around here, it seemed
[36:55.570 --> 36:55.930]  to be it.
[36:56.210 --> 36:58.810]  The second part of the slide, the reason why they're on.
[37:04.480 --> 37:05.580]  Oh, you skipped one there.
[37:05.780 --> 37:06.660]  Okay, I'll just move on.
[37:08.760 --> 37:13.520]  This was a great, great article about some new software that's out.
[37:13.660 --> 37:18.800]  And the thing I'd like to focus on is the state, a statement that this software can think like a hacker.
[37:20.100 --> 37:21.620]  What does a hacker think like?
[37:22.460 --> 37:23.800]  Like a simple piece of software?
[37:24.040 --> 37:24.260]  Yeah.
[37:26.200 --> 37:27.120]  Sorry, in the back.
[37:28.020 --> 37:28.500]  That's
[37:31.720 --> 37:33.360]  hackers that are programming on it.
[37:34.060 --> 37:38.330]  One of their hair, men bust it by the fence, the whole works.
[37:38.910 --> 37:43.650]  And also probably the, I don't know, three or four dozen hackers have all given input.
[37:44.270 --> 37:47.250]  It starts to work more like heuristic virus scanning.
[37:47.250 --> 37:49.530]  It looks more commonly used.
[38:04.430 --> 38:04.980]  Okay.
[38:05.700 --> 38:06.140]  The
[38:14.400 --> 38:14.800]  IPO.
[38:15.120 --> 38:15.640]  Mm-hmm.
[38:17.020 --> 38:17.320]  Okay.
[38:18.540 --> 38:19.560]  We'll move on.
[38:24.110 --> 38:25.830]  We'll move on a little bit better here.
[38:27.470 --> 38:28.150]  Hit it up.
[38:31.380 --> 38:32.580]  There we go.
[38:32.720 --> 38:33.060]  Finally.
[38:34.560 --> 38:34.880]  Okay.
[38:35.060 --> 38:38.060]  Paroled hacker Kevin Mitnick advises CIOs to hire hackers.
[38:38.060 --> 38:45.820]  Now, in this article, it says, I have real world experience in circumventing security measures.
[38:45.980 --> 38:46.740]  This is Kevin speaking.
[38:47.340 --> 38:49.500]  Companies are more interested in experience than education.
[38:51.240 --> 38:58.700]  Kevin also argues, according to the article, that some computer crimes are committed out of intellectual curiosity rather than the desire for personal gain.
[38:58.900 --> 39:02.940]  Adding, just because someone has been arrested for hacking doesn't mean they are criminal.
[39:05.020 --> 39:11.000]  So, part way through the article, this is sounding fairly positive that it was trying to come across as balanced.
[39:12.700 --> 39:14.740]  But then, of course, we move on.
[39:15.620 --> 39:16.100]  Next.
[39:19.290 --> 39:27.270]  As Ken Ammon, founder and CEO of network security technology, states, if you're never going to hire a hacker, you're never going to catch a hacker.
[39:27.830 --> 39:34.710]  Before bringing hackers into the home office, CIO Magazine reports are four items CIOs should seriously weigh.
[39:36.870 --> 39:39.410]  Firstly, comments about a background check.
[39:40.190 --> 39:47.490]  It says, to never assume that background work has ever been done if the hacker candidate has held other corporate positions.
[39:48.690 --> 39:53.750]  In addition, be aware that security companies are often hesitant to have outsiders speak with their customers.
[39:54.850 --> 40:06.310]  So, the interesting focus about a statement about hackers, just because there's been one there, it's just assumed that if you were a hacker, then you could have never, ever been looked at by a corporation.
[40:07.390 --> 40:10.170]  The next comment that they make is about certification.
[40:11.510 --> 40:15.890]  Most hackers who hack for illegal purposes would not take the time to become certified.
[40:17.230 --> 40:29.090]  Therefore, if a hacker candidate is certified as an information security professional or a systems network administrative professional, it's a good sign the hacker does not have illegal intentions.
[40:32.770 --> 40:35.010]  Okay, I'm seeing a lot of reaction to that.
[40:36.490 --> 40:38.610]  I'll let you all comment on just two more here.
[40:39.250 --> 40:40.290]  Topic of ethics.
[40:41.390 --> 40:45.790]  Background checks and resumes do not offer any insight into an individual's moral makeup.
[40:46.150 --> 40:52.110]  A face-to-face meeting with a prospective penetration tester provides a feel for the morals and attentions of the candidate.
[40:52.990 --> 40:55.750]  And lastly, leveraging existing staff.
[40:56.270 --> 41:06.810]  If hiring a hacker is still not an option, there are classes often taught by the FBI, CIA, and NSA that can teach employees the ins and outs of hacking.
[41:08.990 --> 41:09.970]  Any comments?
[41:10.110 --> 41:10.770]  Open to the floor.
[41:10.930 --> 41:11.550]  Yes, over there.
[41:11.710 --> 41:12.710]  You can't teach that.
[41:13.310 --> 41:13.770]  Okay.
[41:14.650 --> 41:15.530]  We're in the back.
[41:15.850 --> 41:20.940]  I think the FBI does, in fact, keep people to do that.
[41:20.940 --> 41:23.680]  And, you know, they actually succeed at places.
[41:23.980 --> 41:25.060]  The fact is, these questions...
[41:25.540 --> 41:27.740]  I mean, it's silly to talk about hackers.
[41:27.860 --> 41:32.640]  You'd want to ask those questions of anyone you're hiring for a sensitive position in the company.
[41:32.920 --> 41:36.900]  The fact that they're referring to hackers, that's sort of odd.
[41:37.200 --> 41:37.900]  I mean...
[41:37.900 --> 41:42.800]  But if you're hiring somebody as a head of security, you actually do want to do these things.
[41:43.260 --> 41:53.320]  And it's actually fairly reasonable to do a background check, to check your certification, to do a face-to-face interview, and to check with other companies, other independent companies, to seek out their life.
[41:53.760 --> 41:58.240]  I mean, it's silly to say that about a hacker, but it's not silly to say that about anybody.
[41:58.380 --> 42:00.080]  You're thinking of hiring a person in the position.
[42:01.180 --> 42:01.620]  Okay.
[42:01.980 --> 42:02.420]  Rebuttal.
[42:03.740 --> 42:04.620]  The hacker...
[42:04.620 --> 42:06.160]  Being a hacker is more of a mindset.
[42:06.440 --> 42:07.880]  You can't keep your mindset.
[42:08.940 --> 42:12.520]  Well, the corporation is not worried about a mindset attacking their company.
[42:12.840 --> 42:15.260]  The corporation is not worried about the hacker in the sense...
[42:15.260 --> 42:17.540]  When they say hacker, they mean somebody who's...
[42:33.530 --> 42:35.950]  People that can just teach how to break into a system.
[42:36.350 --> 42:39.010]  But really, they're just using the word hacker to mean people that aren't.
[42:39.250 --> 42:44.070]  When you learn how to break into a system, there's only so many things you can learn at one point in time.
[42:44.230 --> 42:46.210]  And you're going to have to teach yourself eventually.
[42:46.850 --> 42:48.930]  And to do that, you're going to have to have the mindset.
[42:50.350 --> 42:53.130]  But once you teach yourself, can't you just teach that to someone else?
[42:53.130 --> 42:57.630]  Can't you take somebody and give them enough time to show them everything you know about computers?
[42:57.970 --> 42:58.630]  It's true.
[42:58.850 --> 42:59.750]  I mean, it's...
[42:59.750 --> 43:00.910]  Or just some of the parts.
[43:01.110 --> 43:01.470]  Okay.
[43:01.530 --> 43:02.430]  Can we have another comment here?
[43:02.910 --> 43:05.770]  The hacker is also an intellectual curiosity.
[43:07.270 --> 43:09.490]  There was someone on the high school hacking panel that he said...
[43:09.490 --> 43:10.690]  Well, he got in trouble with this.
[43:10.810 --> 43:12.790]  He just tried password to password for printing.
[43:13.090 --> 43:16.650]  It's that desire to just see, will that work?
[43:16.950 --> 43:18.370]  You don't teach somebody that.
[43:18.570 --> 43:21.150]  That's an eternal desire that people have.
[43:21.150 --> 43:23.250]  And I think that's probably what makes them happen.
[43:23.810 --> 43:26.130]  Not a skill, but a quest.
[43:26.470 --> 43:26.990]  Okay.
[43:27.410 --> 43:28.810]  And one last comment and we'll move on.
[43:28.950 --> 43:34.570]  Yes, I'm in complete agreement with the gentleman in the back who said that it really is a mindset.
[43:35.450 --> 43:39.090]  It's quite possible to apply yourself to learn something.
[43:39.230 --> 43:42.290]  To spend 10 years or whatever the case may be to learn something.
[43:43.590 --> 43:46.270]  But if you really know how to...
[43:46.270 --> 43:54.770]  If you really have this mindset and you know how to attack problems or look at problems from many different angles that other people mightn't think of.
[43:55.050 --> 44:07.590]  And to be able to correlate all of this information, then that really puts you above somebody else who has taken a multitude of classes and has professional certification.
[44:08.830 --> 44:10.230]  I agree with that.
[44:10.630 --> 44:10.970]  Okay.
[44:11.550 --> 44:14.610]  I'm just going to move on because we're just getting close to running out of time.
[44:16.050 --> 44:18.210]  This was a recent article in the Globe and Mail.
[44:19.110 --> 44:19.710]  Hey, babe.
[44:19.810 --> 44:20.910]  Want to come up and see my hardware?
[44:22.990 --> 44:41.630]  And it begins with, at a recent San Francisco sex party, I found myself kneeling rather rapturously at the feet of three charming naked men whose level of arousal seemed unimpaired when our conversation suddenly shifted from pornographic fantasies to the implementation of the web server program Apache on offshore computers.
[44:43.670 --> 44:45.230]  I'll leave that one wide open.
[44:45.350 --> 44:46.470]  I won't read anything more from it.
[44:46.470 --> 44:48.110]  What did we get from topic A to topic B?
[44:50.150 --> 44:51.130]  It's a variety.
[44:51.410 --> 44:55.310]  We're providing a profile, a cross-section of different media articles.
[44:55.550 --> 44:59.990]  But in this case, I don't know how it is they got from topic A to topic B.
[45:00.490 --> 45:01.670]  Offshore porn site.
[45:01.950 --> 45:02.970]  That could have been it.
[45:09.970 --> 45:11.470]  I guess we'll have to note that.
[45:17.490 --> 45:17.930]  Okay.
[45:18.370 --> 45:19.990]  Now we'll just move on to the last one here.
[45:19.990 --> 45:20.850]  Last article.
[45:23.330 --> 45:24.150]  U.S.
[45:24.250 --> 45:25.450]  crackdown on cyber terrorism.
[45:25.530 --> 45:29.410]  This has got to be pretty much a favorite of most people in the room here.
[45:30.850 --> 45:34.170]  Clinton pledges to protect the privacy of private citizens.
[45:34.630 --> 45:43.690]  The article continues that Bill Clinton has announced plan to spend billions of dollars to protect America's computer systems from hackers and viruses.
[45:45.650 --> 45:53.450]  And finally, there's never been a time like this in which we have the power to create knowledge and the power to create havoc.
[45:53.710 --> 45:56.370]  And both those powers rest in the same hands.
[45:56.890 --> 46:01.890]  It is essential that we do not undermine liberty in the name of liberty.
[46:02.450 --> 46:04.450]  Does anybody want to comment on that?
[46:04.770 --> 46:05.690]  Yes, right here.
[46:05.690 --> 46:08.670]  How are they going to protect the privacy of private citizens?
[46:08.750 --> 46:09.830]  Can you speak up?
[46:09.990 --> 46:11.070]  The microphone would be great.
[46:12.070 --> 46:16.150]  How are they going to protect the privacy of private citizens when they can't protect the privacy of the Pentagon?
[46:17.050 --> 46:17.450]  Okay.
[46:19.810 --> 46:21.030]  Anybody else want to go with that?
[46:21.470 --> 46:22.270]  In the back there.
[46:22.390 --> 46:26.930]  The comments actually sound similar to what happened about 225 years ago on 1776.
[46:27.750 --> 46:32.750]  And the publication of certain materials that might have been against the British government.
[46:33.010 --> 46:35.730]  So I don't know if this is the first time in history.
[46:36.190 --> 46:37.550]  It seems like it's happened before.
[46:37.550 --> 46:38.330]  I don't know.
[46:38.910 --> 46:39.270]  Okay.
[46:44.660 --> 46:50.960]  And a bunch of opportunities for contractors to get in there and work with some really cool security software.
[46:51.680 --> 46:54.960]  Where they can satisfy their own intellectual curiosity.
[46:56.380 --> 46:56.780]  Okay.
[46:57.460 --> 46:58.660]  You had your hand up in the back.
[46:58.800 --> 46:59.480]  Did you want to make a comment?
[47:00.080 --> 47:02.400]  I'm having a hard time seeing with the lights in my eyes here.
[47:03.400 --> 47:03.700]  No?
[47:04.200 --> 47:04.600]  Right here.
[47:05.720 --> 47:10.400]  I think it's kind of funny that Clinton pledges to protect the privacy of private citizens.
[47:10.400 --> 47:15.080]  But then also this is the same government that runs programs like Carnivore.
[47:15.380 --> 47:19.880]  That are going through the privacy of private citizens and destroying it.
[47:20.460 --> 47:24.540]  So the real threat, well, is not necessarily from hackers.
[47:24.780 --> 47:26.240]  It's also from the government itself.
[47:27.300 --> 47:27.980]  Okay.
[47:28.840 --> 47:35.060]  I noticed Ed had posted some interesting little notices above the payphones.
[47:35.300 --> 47:36.560]  If anybody got to see those.
[47:37.760 --> 47:39.480]  Oh, and the privacy issue.
[47:39.560 --> 47:39.660]  Yeah.
[47:39.800 --> 47:44.740]  There were copies of signs from the Bureau of Prisons that all telephone calls are monitored.
[47:44.840 --> 47:50.060]  And I just put them above the payphones there to remind people that your phone calls may well be monitored.
[47:51.200 --> 47:56.080]  Any comments about the final statement on the slide?
[47:57.400 --> 47:59.700]  Not to undermine liberty in the name of liberty.
[48:02.400 --> 48:03.680]  Who was saying that?
[48:03.880 --> 48:04.540]  Like the reporter?
[48:04.740 --> 48:05.760]  No, this is Bill Clinton.
[48:06.040 --> 48:06.240]  Oh.
[48:10.810 --> 48:11.650]  Not surprisingly.
[48:12.610 --> 48:13.290]  Over here.
[48:13.410 --> 48:13.930]  I want to know
[48:17.330 --> 48:18.690]  liberty in the state.
[48:19.170 --> 48:19.710]  You don't understand.
[48:19.910 --> 48:21.870]  He's protecting your privacy from me.
[48:22.050 --> 48:23.690]  But he can do anything he wants.
[48:24.450 --> 48:25.150]  I don't understand.
[48:25.450 --> 48:27.070]  You never talk about privacy.
[48:27.350 --> 48:28.950]  Nothing about the privacy from the government.
[48:29.170 --> 48:31.350]  Nothing about privacy from liberty.
[48:31.690 --> 48:33.290]  I don't even talk about privacy from companies.
[48:34.710 --> 48:35.230]  Okay.
[48:35.230 --> 48:39.190]  I'm just going to call Yano up now to conclude the presentation.
[48:46.940 --> 48:47.960]  Oh, it's hot up here.
[48:49.200 --> 48:49.600]  Okay.
[48:49.860 --> 48:53.020]  So, like Mr. Dodge said earlier, we need your help.
[48:53.960 --> 48:56.640]  We need as big a sample set as we can.
[48:58.000 --> 49:00.700]  And, you know, without your help, this thing is pretty much going to die.
[49:02.180 --> 49:03.960]  So far, we've had a great response.
[49:04.260 --> 49:07.220]  I've talked to a lot of people up in the networking room.
[49:07.640 --> 49:09.100]  A lot of interesting conversations.
[49:09.100 --> 49:10.800]  And everything has been great.
[49:10.940 --> 49:16.520]  And actually, we were afraid that our story was too long and people weren't going to finish it.
[49:16.580 --> 49:18.880]  But so far, everybody who has started has finished it.
[49:18.880 --> 49:20.080]  And we're very pleased about that.
[49:22.800 --> 49:24.460]  The other thing is the T-shirts.
[49:25.500 --> 49:28.580]  We've really been getting a good reaction with these T-shirts.
[49:28.700 --> 49:31.220]  Wherever we've gone, people have looked at us.
[49:32.080 --> 49:34.260]  They've either smiled or sneered or something.
[49:34.400 --> 49:37.900]  But we get a reaction nonetheless, which is good.
[49:40.240 --> 49:43.080]  The T-shirts, we're selling them for $20.
[49:45.160 --> 49:50.580]  If you do a survey, we'll give that T-shirt to you for half price, $10.
[49:53.760 --> 49:55.320]  And we're also doing interviews.
[49:55.440 --> 50:01.540]  And if you book an interview as first come, first serve, we'll give that T-shirt to you for free.
[50:01.540 --> 50:05.080]  But we only have a certain amount of slots for interviews available.
[50:05.420 --> 50:07.140]  So book one.
[50:08.880 --> 50:13.000]  That may sound kind of chintzy, but frankly, basically, we're paying for these out of their own pockets.
[50:13.140 --> 50:18.180]  So it's not like a corporate giveaway where a company can just give you a T-shirt and it's no big deal.
[50:18.180 --> 50:21.900]  They spend a lot of money putting these shirts together themselves out of their own pockets.
[50:23.540 --> 50:26.960]  And then I'll open the floor for questions now.
[50:27.260 --> 50:32.840]  If anything, any comments or questions you didn't get answered so far in the presentation.
[50:33.220 --> 50:33.540]  Thanks.
[50:44.920 --> 50:45.360]  Okay.
[50:46.100 --> 50:48.440]  Anybody have any questions, comments?
[50:48.880 --> 50:51.560]  If you like the shirt, I smell good.
[50:51.880 --> 50:52.200]  I don't know.
[50:52.400 --> 50:52.600]  Anything?
[50:54.320 --> 50:55.820]  Where do we go to book an interview?
[50:56.920 --> 50:57.360]  Okay.
[50:57.640 --> 51:01.760]  You can come and see us out at our display, which is right at the main entrance.
[51:02.720 --> 51:04.920]  You'll see it just right around the corner, just by the elevators.
[51:07.060 --> 51:07.500]  Yes.
[51:10.020 --> 51:12.940]  Just have a general comment on the use of the word hacker.
[51:12.940 --> 51:14.780]  We're quite liberally in this presentation.
[51:15.180 --> 51:18.200]  It's not an invention in the 90s or even the 80s.
[51:18.300 --> 51:35.020]  The term hacker goes all the way back to the original model train enthusiasts back at MIT, who I guess you could say are responsible for the creation of the internet, for the maintenance of the internet, for the personal computer, and just about every other modern computing device we have in the world today.
[51:35.260 --> 51:42.560]  To vilify such a wide variety of people in a broad stroke, as other people pointed out, is a grave injustice.
[51:43.320 --> 51:48.860]  And, of course, there are criminals in all aspects of society, even within the hacker community.
[51:49.120 --> 51:55.260]  But to use hacker in a pejorative sense is, I think, a misunderstanding of what the word really means.
[51:57.020 --> 51:57.340]  True.
[52:01.280 --> 52:04.900]  I just wanted to say this sounds like something really new that hasn't really been done before.
[52:05.060 --> 52:12.960]  I think it's a real good idea, and it sounds like you guys have an opportunity to go forward and set how people are going to look at this stuff in the future.
[52:13.180 --> 52:14.300]  And thanks, and keep it up.
[52:14.300 --> 52:15.420]  Thank you.
[52:21.270 --> 52:22.190]  Anybody else?
[52:23.370 --> 52:27.010]  If you have any questions, please feel free to come and see us.
[52:27.990 --> 52:33.210]  We'll be around until Sunday morning, probably about Sunday at noon.
[52:34.210 --> 52:35.270]  So you can come and see us.
[52:35.970 --> 52:38.510]  Any kind of questions you want to ask us, feel free.
[52:38.670 --> 52:39.070]  Website?
[52:39.890 --> 52:45.930]  And the website is posted on the back of the shirt, as well as on our display.
[52:46.090 --> 52:48.330]  And we have some information sheets that you can take with you, if you like.
[52:48.530 --> 52:52.790]  So will people be able to conduct this survey, or actually participate in a survey online?
[52:53.050 --> 52:53.690]  That's correct.
[52:53.970 --> 52:54.110]  Okay.
[52:54.750 --> 52:58.390]  So the URL is available on a handout at your table?
[52:58.570 --> 52:58.930]  That's correct.
[52:59.110 --> 52:59.190]  Okay.
[53:00.010 --> 53:00.890]  Thank you very much.