[00:16.690 --> 00:17.090]  Yeah?
[00:17.090 --> 00:18.170]  Do you have an extra...
[00:18.170 --> 00:20.430]  Hey, how's it going?
[00:21.030 --> 00:22.790]  This is what I put together for my...
[02:03.690 --> 02:06.650]  Greetings, thanks for coming to the abuse of authority panel.
[02:08.510 --> 02:16.350]  It was going to be subtitled, we just couldn't fit it on the program, abuse of authority, how law enforcement circumvents constitutional protections.
[02:17.230 --> 02:32.570]  And there's a lot of loopholes in the system that aren't necessarily apparent, and generally I've found they're only apparent to people who've gone through the system and then they become painfully obvious.
[02:32.890 --> 02:36.830]  So, this is Terrence, our ShapeShifter.
[02:37.590 --> 02:38.430]  Hi, good morning.
[02:38.870 --> 02:40.890]  Our graphic layout artist for 2600.
[02:41.250 --> 02:42.790]  And Alex Rubenstein?
[02:43.030 --> 02:44.070]  Nope, Alex Urbellis.
[02:44.150 --> 02:45.390]  I'm sorry, my mistake.
[02:45.630 --> 02:45.970]  That's a different one.
[02:46.110 --> 02:48.230]  I'm from the New York Civil Liberties Union.
[02:48.410 --> 02:54.090]  I was recently elected to the Board of Directors for the New York Civil Liberties Union in Suffolk County from New York, obviously.
[02:57.650 --> 02:58.270]  Thank you.
[03:00.670 --> 03:03.510]  I guess I'll start off a little bit.
[03:04.710 --> 03:11.090]  I wanted to start out describing some actual abuses of constitutional safeguards.
[03:11.510 --> 03:21.730]  I didn't want to turn this into just talking about examples of unfairness by law enforcement enforcement or other authority figures, because that would take probably several weeks to list all of those.
[03:22.370 --> 03:44.230]  But despite what most people tend to assume from what they learn in school and on television and the movies and so forth, and despite the original attentions that might have led to its creation, the justice system, in my opinion, in this country really has little or nothing to do with fairness,
[03:44.670 --> 03:47.470]  justice, logic, or common sense.
[03:48.090 --> 03:55.310]  From a practical standpoint, it's really about winning the case, using whatever resources are available to your side.
[03:55.490 --> 04:03.250]  And unfortunately, there's a huge disparity in access to these resources amongst the different players in this system.
[04:05.130 --> 04:13.030]  Before we go into this, it's a good question to ask, why would a law enforcement officer abuse their authority?
[04:14.110 --> 04:21.190]  And I've put down, having gone through the mill myself with this, I've noticed a few things and I've come up with this list.
[04:22.410 --> 04:27.610]  Frustration with a system that makes them work too hard to comply with constitutional safeguards.
[04:29.730 --> 04:33.490]  Ignorance, maybe they're not aware of certain constitutional safeguards.
[04:35.090 --> 04:45.870]  The attorney I had in my case, or the second attorney, who turned out to be a little better, he was a former, he was a federal prosecutor and prior to becoming a defense attorney.
[04:46.270 --> 04:54.790]  And he told me that he'd never seen a case involving local police where there weren't serious constitutional problems with.
[04:55.050 --> 04:58.790]  And local police generally are pretty much amateurs.
[04:59.070 --> 05:01.990]  And you can find all kinds of mistakes they make left and right.
[05:02.150 --> 05:04.210]  But you need a good attorney to pick them out.
[05:04.650 --> 05:08.570]  And harder yet, you need them to tell the truth in the courtroom.
[05:08.890 --> 05:14.510]  Because they'll make all kinds of mistakes, but they'll just lie about it to protect themselves.
[05:15.830 --> 05:18.170]  So, some of the other reasons might be just carelessness.
[05:18.570 --> 05:19.170]  They forgot.
[05:20.770 --> 05:21.990]  Maybe they just don't give a damn.
[05:22.930 --> 05:27.690]  Perhaps there's some sort of arrest-prosecution ratio that they need to fulfill.
[05:28.990 --> 05:31.130]  Or a quota or rating system.
[05:31.670 --> 05:39.710]  Maybe law enforcement officers are evaluated by the number of prosecutions that they're responsible for getting into the system.
[05:40.190 --> 05:44.790]  I tend to think of it as a sort of a salesman commission type analogy.
[05:45.330 --> 05:50.090]  A salesperson will get paid a commission based on the number of sales they make.
[05:50.090 --> 05:59.730]  And if a law enforcement officer actions over a period of time don't result in very many arrests, he's not going to get a raise.
[05:59.850 --> 06:00.690]  He's not going to get promoted.
[06:01.590 --> 06:02.870]  He's probably going to be reprimanded.
[06:02.970 --> 06:04.570]  It's like, why aren't you getting these prosecutions?
[06:05.310 --> 06:06.070]  Let's get some more.
[06:06.350 --> 06:07.490]  You've got to keep up with the quota.
[06:07.690 --> 06:13.730]  I'm not saying there's a quota necessarily, but frankly, they're evaluated by the number of prosecutions they make.
[06:13.830 --> 06:24.310]  They're not evaluated by the number of rules they follow and it just happens that, you know, they didn't get any solid convictions.
[06:24.310 --> 06:27.190]  And they're not going to get a raise based on that, in my opinion.
[06:28.730 --> 06:34.430]  Perhaps a personal fear, or maybe they feel a threat.
[06:34.730 --> 06:38.930]  Some law enforcement officers may feel threatened by an individual.
[06:39.570 --> 06:51.350]  In my case, several people believe that the Secret Service felt threatened by a lot of information I had in my files about their agency and agents.
[06:52.010 --> 06:59.150]  And, well, we can go into that later, but in any case, some of the other reasons might be they were just following orders.
[07:00.190 --> 07:06.330]  Maybe another higher law enforcement officer in their organization said, listen, this guy's up to no good.
[07:06.570 --> 07:07.970]  You know, get him, whatever.
[07:09.270 --> 07:19.390]  Or perhaps a prosecutor, judge, or someone else in a position of authority might be in the same position where they have one of these reasons or justifications.
[07:20.650 --> 07:31.950]  There's a lot of differences between the, in my findings, there's a lot of differences between the justice system, the law enforcement system, and justice itself.
[07:33.490 --> 07:41.290]  And I've come up with a list of some of the loopholes that I've noticed law enforcement officers have gotten away with.
[07:41.690 --> 07:44.650]  There's something called manufacturing consent.
[07:44.950 --> 07:49.870]  And a lot of people of you have heard of the book, my name Chomsky by that title, but it's not, that's not what I'm talking about.
[07:50.210 --> 07:59.690]  I'm saying where a law enforcement officer will either ask for your consent and if you decline it, ask for your consent for a search or seizure of your property.
[07:59.830 --> 08:06.250]  And if you decline that consent, they'll search or seize your property anyway and say you gave consent and then lie about that in court.
[08:09.110 --> 08:11.370]  Or they'll just not even ask you.
[08:11.470 --> 08:28.970]  And they'll just do a search or seizure without probable cause And say that you gave consent or say that they saw they had a probable cause or say, well, you know, we noticed a bag of marijuana sitting in the back seat of the defendant's car, where, you know,
[08:29.050 --> 08:34.550]  it might have been in the guy's trunk, but, you know, when it comes to the courtroom, who's going to believe who?
[08:35.570 --> 08:36.590]  Could I butt in there for a second?
[08:36.590 --> 08:36.890]  Yeah, go ahead.
[08:37.310 --> 08:45.870]  What I'd like to do is just try to give the standard NYCLU advice that we give out to all our members in relation to what Bernie's saying.
[08:46.770 --> 08:49.110]  Manufacturing probable cause is a big problem.
[08:49.570 --> 08:53.710]  And probable cause usually applies particularly to when you're in a vehicle.
[08:54.190 --> 09:04.810]  If you're in your car, the only thing you have to do by law with the police officer is give him your name and your driver's license and registration and proof of insurance most of the time.
[09:05.210 --> 09:07.290]  You don't have to answer any of their questions.
[09:07.470 --> 09:14.110]  You don't have to consent to having them search your car, your trunk, yourself, unless they have probable cause.
[09:14.330 --> 09:16.750]  And bumper stickers are not probable cause.
[09:16.970 --> 09:20.310]  If you have a fish bumper sticker, they probably think you're going to have drugs in your car.
[09:20.450 --> 09:22.430]  Freak having bumper stickers are not probable cause.
[09:22.830 --> 09:25.450]  Just remember that those are the only two things you have to do.
[09:25.530 --> 09:27.050]  Give your driver's license and registration.
[09:27.370 --> 09:29.130]  You don't have to answer any other questions.
[09:29.290 --> 09:30.770]  You don't have to tell them that you've been drinking.
[09:31.210 --> 09:32.350]  Tell them where you're coming from.
[09:32.750 --> 09:37.250]  Answering their questions will probably make them a little suspicious, but it's not reason enough for them to arrest you.
[09:38.330 --> 09:45.590]  And if you're questioned by a law enforcement officer, most of us would, I think, feel threatened or worried or concerned or whatever.
[09:45.850 --> 09:51.550]  And they're very good and skilled and practiced at intimidating people.
[09:51.670 --> 09:54.150]  There's some good law enforcement officers out there, no doubt about it.
[09:54.310 --> 10:02.630]  But by their training, they're trained to get information from suspects.
[10:02.970 --> 10:12.190]  And if you're stopped, whether in your vehicle or walking down the sidewalk with a cell phone or whatever it is, it can be very intimidating.
[10:12.470 --> 10:17.370]  And you can forget that you don't have to say anything.
[10:17.630 --> 10:22.010]  Or they may say, well, if you don't tell me, we're going to have to take you in for questioning.
[10:22.210 --> 10:25.690]  Or you can make this a lot easier on yourself if you just explain whatever.
[10:26.230 --> 10:27.950]  Well, you really don't have to say anything.
[10:27.990 --> 10:33.110]  But it's easier to say that here than when you're really in that situation.
[10:35.290 --> 10:39.830]  Alex just mentioned the manufacturing probable cause thing that was next on my list.
[10:39.990 --> 10:54.530]  There's another great one I like is the good faith exception, where law enforcement authorities have a legal loophole of using good faith as an exception to violating someone's constitutional rights.
[10:54.590 --> 10:57.170]  They can say, well, they thought they were following the rules.
[10:57.330 --> 11:01.470]  And in many cases, maybe you could go into that a little bit, Alex, about the good faith exception.
[11:03.390 --> 11:12.030]  Well, they believe that it's called a bona fide or a good faith belief that you were doing something wrong or that they had probable cause or that they were actually following the right procedure.
[11:12.230 --> 11:15.730]  And if they had a good faith belief, well, they didn't have any intent to break the law.
[11:15.790 --> 11:16.310]  They didn't know.
[11:16.330 --> 11:17.750]  So they're not responsible.
[11:18.530 --> 11:20.350]  That's basically the gist of it.
[11:20.930 --> 11:23.630]  But you've got to be very careful.
[11:23.870 --> 11:30.850]  And to bounce back to what Bernie just said, you want to try to stay as calm as possible if you confront law enforcement.
[11:31.270 --> 11:34.710]  The calmer you are, the more in control of your words you're going to be.
[11:35.190 --> 11:36.770]  Just remember to stay calm.
[11:36.870 --> 11:38.050]  Don't let them fluster you.
[11:38.190 --> 11:39.610]  You don't have to answer questions.
[11:40.790 --> 11:42.310]  Just be in control of your words.
[11:42.310 --> 11:47.050]  It's one of the most important things that you can be when you're in a situation with police authorities.
[11:47.910 --> 11:50.410]  As far as questions go, I think we're going to answer questions at the end.
[11:50.670 --> 11:51.430]  We're going to go through them.
[11:55.350 --> 12:03.310]  Is good faith belief in protection of officers from reprimand, or can that also be leveraged to make evidence still admissible?
[12:04.950 --> 12:13.390]  You really have to take it on a case-by-case basis, but I'd be inclined to say not a firm yes to both your questions, but in most instances probably.
[12:13.730 --> 12:14.950]  It's often been used that way.
[12:15.370 --> 12:16.070]  Very often.
[12:19.650 --> 12:23.150]  ShapeShifter here wanted to bring up specific examples of some of these things.
[12:23.290 --> 12:25.550]  Did you have some examples of some of the things we just went over?
[12:25.850 --> 12:26.070]  Terrence?
[12:26.390 --> 12:41.750]  Especially when I was picked up by or tackled, let's say, by like, oh no, 12 police officers from the Philadelphia police the day after all these protests that I supposedly led, which it turned out later that I wasn't actually at the protest.
[12:41.910 --> 12:50.870]  They were accused of me leading, which consisted of a bunch of people who are sitting down the street, and when they're asked three times by the law enforcement to move, they did.
[12:52.270 --> 12:58.070]  So there wasn't actually any crime there, but that was still enough to arrest me and put me under $500,000 bail.
[12:58.190 --> 13:07.350]  But before then, I was put in an interrogation room in the homicide division, and they were trying to intimidate me, obviously, a homicide division, but... Were you intimidated?
[13:08.270 --> 13:10.390]  A little, you know, but...
[13:11.050 --> 13:23.210]  You know, there's, you know, some legal people were working with all the protesters before the RNC protests, and, you know, one of our best advice is, I would like to remain silent.
[13:23.210 --> 13:24.190]  I would like to see a lawyer.
[13:24.510 --> 13:28.850]  If you say that for about eight hours straight, they're not going to ask you too many questions.
[13:30.050 --> 13:30.450]  So...
[13:30.450 --> 13:31.390]  Very stubborn.
[13:32.210 --> 13:39.270]  You know, that's... you know, they just speak to a lawyer before you say anything to law enforcement, even if it's minor.
[13:40.050 --> 13:42.690]  You know, I didn't even give my name for eight hours.
[13:43.150 --> 13:43.550]  So...
[13:43.550 --> 13:46.030]  Alex, what's the... you might be able to hit some light on...
[13:46.030 --> 13:46.370]  What's the law?
[13:46.550 --> 13:50.750]  If you say, I want to speak to my lawyer, can questioning continue?
[13:50.750 --> 14:04.850]  Can they continue to, you know, just be great and nag you and threaten you for the next eight hours if you say, I want to talk to my lawyer, I want a phone call to talk to my lawyer, do they have to stop and let you make that phone call and talk to your lawyer,
[14:04.910 --> 14:07.610]  or can they continue to ask you questions for the next week?
[14:07.890 --> 14:11.250]  They're supposed to stop, but what they'll try to do is say, well, you don't really need...
[14:11.250 --> 14:13.050]  They can tell you, you don't need to talk to a lawyer.
[14:14.070 --> 14:16.610]  Like we said before, you can make this a lot easier to find yourself.
[14:17.070 --> 14:18.450]  You don't need to talk to a lawyer.
[14:18.830 --> 14:23.670]  It's going to take hours for them to get here, and if you just talk to us now, we'll get you out of here as soon as we can.
[14:24.870 --> 14:27.030]  Most importantly, just keep asking for a lawyer.
[14:27.250 --> 14:28.810]  Don't make any statements to the police.
[14:30.150 --> 14:34.550]  A lot of times police officers will say, well, I'm not responsible for getting you an attorney.
[14:34.950 --> 14:37.990]  Well, you tell them that you want to talk to the person who is responsible.
[14:38.330 --> 14:39.870]  Just keep demanding an attorney.
[14:40.070 --> 14:41.650]  That's one of the most important things to do.
[14:41.650 --> 14:44.030]  Don't make any statements without an attorney present.
[14:45.030 --> 14:49.690]  Another really important thing is don't try to explain to them why you are not making statements.
[14:50.050 --> 14:51.210]  Don't make up stories.
[14:51.370 --> 14:53.510]  Don't make up any explanations why you're not talking.
[14:53.910 --> 14:56.070]  Regardless of their questions, just remain silent.
[14:56.130 --> 14:57.110]  It's your right to be silent.
[14:57.150 --> 14:58.130]  You should exercise it.
[14:59.170 --> 15:03.150]  If you start making up stories about why you're being silent, they're going to remember that.
[15:03.330 --> 15:04.310]  They're going to have it on tape.
[15:04.430 --> 15:05.190]  They're going to write it down.
[15:05.470 --> 15:12.850]  And most likely, it can come back to haunt you if you go to trial, or maybe you make some kind of contradictory statement where you weren't telling the whole story.
[15:13.170 --> 15:16.430]  And then if you go to trial, you'll look like a liar in front of the jury.
[15:16.650 --> 15:17.690]  So be silent.
[15:17.830 --> 15:18.830]  Keep asking for an attorney.
[15:18.950 --> 15:19.590]  Be persistent.
[15:19.610 --> 15:20.790]  They have to give you one.
[15:21.170 --> 15:22.750]  Don't be intimidated by their questions.
[15:22.870 --> 15:23.630]  It's very intimidating.
[15:23.630 --> 15:25.710]  I was in a situation myself.
[15:26.230 --> 15:28.870]  And you get flustered.
[15:28.870 --> 15:30.270]  You don't know how to handle yourself.
[15:30.430 --> 15:31.550]  You want to explain to them.
[15:31.930 --> 15:34.970]  Even if you're totally innocent, just be quiet.
[15:35.130 --> 15:35.690]  Get an attorney.
[15:35.930 --> 15:39.230]  If you can't afford an attorney, they'll have to provide one for you.
[15:39.410 --> 15:41.350]  You may sit in there a couple hours.
[15:41.630 --> 15:42.770]  It's not fun.
[15:43.370 --> 15:44.970]  But we'll get to questions at the end.
[15:45.090 --> 15:45.390]  I'm sorry.
[15:46.790 --> 15:49.350]  I imagine these laws vary from state to state also.
[15:50.050 --> 15:51.350]  But what's the timeframe?
[15:51.590 --> 15:52.870]  If you ask to speak to your...
[15:52.870 --> 15:54.150]  I want to talk to my lawyer.
[15:56.850 --> 15:58.130]  How long can they drag that out?
[15:58.470 --> 16:00.110]  They can drag it out for a long time.
[16:00.270 --> 16:01.030]  What's a long time?
[16:01.650 --> 16:04.830]  I would imagine that they could keep you for overnight.
[16:04.970 --> 16:06.230]  I mean, it depends on when you get arrested.
[16:06.230 --> 16:08.410]  But what's that?
[16:08.610 --> 16:08.850]  Three days.
[16:09.510 --> 16:10.110]  Well, yeah.
[16:10.210 --> 16:12.730]  You can be arranged in three days, too.
[16:18.050 --> 16:18.450]  Yeah.
[16:18.770 --> 16:20.210]  So, I mean, it varies.
[16:20.390 --> 16:22.010]  I mean, it will vary with the police department, too.
[16:22.030 --> 16:25.590]  I'm not sure if there's a specific timeframe, you know, by law.
[16:25.750 --> 16:27.830]  But they should provide you with it as soon as possible.
[16:29.110 --> 16:36.610]  Most police departments should be quite familiar with the situation and the ramifications of not providing someone with legal assistance.
[16:36.610 --> 16:47.310]  The next thing on my list here was secretly using illegally obtained evidence in dragnets than using other means to manufacture probable cause.
[16:47.930 --> 16:56.150]  I read a while back the LAPD was notorious recently for creative wiretapping techniques.
[16:56.810 --> 16:58.850]  You've probably heard about this, Alex.
[16:59.430 --> 17:05.150]  They would get a wiretap warrant for one suspect, ostensibly with probable cause.
[17:05.150 --> 17:07.950]  Let's assume they were honest about their reasons.
[17:08.710 --> 17:21.250]  And then they would extrapolate that single warrant into literally hundreds, and in the LAPD's case, thousands of different wiretap warrants based on just a handful of them.
[17:21.430 --> 17:32.950]  Just because they would, through pen registers and other tracking information, they could say, well, then, you know, this person then becomes a suspect and it should fall under the same wiretap warrant.
[17:32.950 --> 17:40.090]  Legally, it didn't, but they were just doing this wholesale, widespread dragnet wiretapping, LAPD was.
[17:40.230 --> 17:43.630]  And this was just, what, four or five years, three or four years ago.
[17:44.810 --> 17:50.070]  And, you know, this was going on for years and years, and finally some sharp public defender noticed that.
[17:50.430 --> 17:54.970]  And there aren't very many, there's, you know, there are a lot more sharp private attorneys than public defenders, unfortunately.
[17:55.290 --> 17:57.210]  They just, public defenders just are swamped for time.
[17:57.330 --> 18:00.790]  They don't have time to dig into details, and the devil is in the details in these cases.
[18:01.650 --> 18:10.630]  So, what the LAPD was doing was just, you know, wide scale wiretapping of people that really, legally did not fall under their warrant.
[18:10.850 --> 18:14.050]  And then, using information they'd heard to develop cases.
[18:14.570 --> 18:21.610]  And, of course, when they went to court, they wouldn't say that they'd gotten their original clues and evidence from these wiretaps.
[18:21.610 --> 18:25.410]  They would then, you know, watch the suspect and develop other probable cause.
[18:25.530 --> 18:34.710]  But they were using illegally obtained evidence to, as a, as a foothold to find a case, and then they would find probable cause some other way.
[18:34.930 --> 18:37.550]  So, that's a, I just thought it was a creative loophole.
[18:38.210 --> 18:44.090]  Another good one here is interrogations and creative misquoting of suspects and defendants.
[18:44.090 --> 18:48.010]  Now, Terence, this probably happened to you as it happened to me and other people in this room, I'm sure.
[18:48.510 --> 18:52.410]  Were you quoted at all in any police affidavit incorrectly?
[18:53.670 --> 18:55.930]  I wasn't quoted in any.
[18:56.070 --> 19:00.410]  They, mostly their intelligence was based on reading the newspaper for the RNC.
[19:00.630 --> 19:02.870]  So, I guess that's how I got targeted.
[19:03.130 --> 19:14.550]  I had, I had been misquoted on several occasions, both in affidavits and by law enforcement officers and sworn testimony on the stand in a courtroom.
[19:15.090 --> 19:20.410]  And, often times these are very subtle variations of, of what you say.
[19:20.610 --> 19:22.110]  But that can make all the difference.
[19:23.010 --> 19:33.750]  For instance, if, if, if a law enforcement officer asks you, where, you know, where is this piece of paper?
[19:34.270 --> 19:37.330]  And you can say, as far as I know it doesn't exist.
[19:38.670 --> 19:42.810]  And as far as I can say, it's, you're asking me for something, you can say, you're asking me for something that doesn't exist.
[19:42.930 --> 19:43.690]  You're asking me for vapor.
[19:44.490 --> 19:51.250]  I was quoted by a law enforcement officer saying, it's no longer in existence and I burned it.
[19:54.010 --> 19:57.190]  So, but now, I don't know whether that officer actually believed.
[19:57.370 --> 20:02.490]  A lot of times I think they might even believe, just in their own zeal, believe that they heard what they wanted to hear.
[20:03.270 --> 20:05.870]  But, you know, this happens all the time.
[20:06.050 --> 20:15.310]  And it's a very narrow margin they need to, to change what you said into something that completely turns the thing around.
[20:15.530 --> 20:20.710]  And it happens all the time and that's another reason why you really are better off not saying anything.
[20:20.790 --> 20:24.130]  If, if you say something, it can be twisted around into something else.
[20:24.130 --> 20:30.410]  If you say nothing, it's a little harder, not a lot harder, but it's a little harder for them to misquote you.
[20:30.610 --> 20:35.190]  Then they'll just have to wholesale manufacture that he said this, which happens also.
[20:35.410 --> 20:44.250]  But it's easier for them to just change a word here and there than to just make up a whole, out of whole cloth that you said something.
[20:44.250 --> 20:47.670]  Yeah, I definitely have to agree with Bernie on this one.
[20:47.970 --> 20:54.290]  Two years ago, when I was an undergrad, I did an internship with the Suffolk County District Attorney's Office.
[20:54.890 --> 21:08.350]  Any time there's a DWI case, the police are required to write down any statements that you say to them and then file you what's called a Huntley notice, which is basically a notice that they're going to use these statements against you at a trial, if it goes to trial,
[21:08.510 --> 21:15.150]  basically trying to persuade you into settling the case before it goes to trial and waste the time in the court and the DA's office.
[21:16.510 --> 21:20.890]  It's really amazing, you know, the memory that these cops have.
[21:21.010 --> 21:21.630]  Very creative.
[21:21.790 --> 21:22.630]  Very creative.
[21:22.810 --> 21:30.110]  I mean, whole paragraphs, three, four paragraphs of long sentences, run-on sentences, so obviously fabricated most of the time.
[21:30.570 --> 21:33.670]  And things that a drunk person, even a drunk person, wouldn't say these things.
[21:34.450 --> 21:37.110]  It's amazing what they write down, what they fabricate.
[21:37.510 --> 21:40.210]  Amazingly lucid paragraphs from someone who was, you know...
[21:40.210 --> 21:42.150]  Yeah, these cops, they have very good memories.
[21:42.490 --> 21:42.610]  Yeah.
[21:44.410 --> 21:50.010]  And it's... you get these guys in there, and you think they're going to be Einsteins with their memory, but they're total adults.
[21:50.190 --> 21:58.510]  I mean, they can't remember your name, but yet they can remember three or four paragraphs of sentences that you said to them in a car three weeks ago, you know, with the utmost clarity.
[21:59.010 --> 22:01.950]  So it's a common tactic, it really is.
[22:01.950 --> 22:16.470]  So many times I've wished that I had, you know, a fairy godmother with a camcorder, because, you know, there really ought to be, you know, the show Cops, you know, I've seen that a couple of times on television.
[22:16.690 --> 22:25.890]  They really ought to do a show called Cops with Candid Camera or something like that, where the cops don't know they're being videotaped.
[22:26.010 --> 22:30.150]  How many... just what, this past week we've seen a few instances of cops on Candid Camera.
[22:30.150 --> 22:32.190]  And, you know, it's ugly.
[22:32.970 --> 22:36.530]  But, you know, those are the kinds of examples that make it on television.
[22:37.330 --> 22:43.590]  The more insidious examples of this are those that don't have a great visual impact and end up on Fox TV.
[22:43.590 --> 23:02.010]  These are examples where, you know, the circumstances of an arrest or detainment and a questioning that are represented in an affidavit or in a courtroom testimony really bear very little resemblance to what actually happened.
[23:02.010 --> 23:07.890]  But, you know, the whole system seems to... is sensibly based on truth.
[23:08.690 --> 23:11.370]  You know, both sides have to tell the truth in a courtroom.
[23:12.950 --> 23:15.610]  And if one party doesn't tell the truth, the thing goes down...
[23:15.610 --> 23:17.130]  Well, at least law enforcement doesn't tell the truth.
[23:17.210 --> 23:18.010]  It goes down the drain.
[23:18.130 --> 23:21.190]  The whole system breaks down if there isn't honesty.
[23:21.190 --> 23:24.510]  Now, I think law enforcement officers, I mentioned earlier, frustration.
[23:25.650 --> 23:34.890]  I think a lot of law enforcement officers, you know, they try hard to do their job and they're just frustrated as hell that, you know, the bad guys, they can lie all they want, but the cops can't.
[23:34.970 --> 23:39.790]  So they figure, I think, some officers, okay, well, we'll even score a little bit.
[23:40.290 --> 23:41.750]  We'll be creative as they are.
[23:41.890 --> 23:44.310]  Or we'll just be a little creative as whatever it takes.
[23:44.630 --> 23:45.410]  You know, that sort of thing.
[23:45.410 --> 23:47.270]  And, you know, it's human nature, I think.
[23:47.370 --> 23:50.030]  I think law enforcement must be an incredibly difficult job.
[23:51.130 --> 23:51.690]  You know, these...
[23:51.690 --> 23:54.750]  A lot of law enforcement officers, especially local ones, they have...
[23:54.750 --> 23:56.290]  They don't have a lot of legal training.
[23:56.510 --> 24:02.570]  And they've got to understand, at the very least, the Bill of Rights, the Constitution.
[24:03.070 --> 24:05.770]  And I think they should be...
[24:05.770 --> 24:11.010]  I think they should be tested on, like, an annual basis on their understanding of constitutional rights.
[24:11.010 --> 24:13.190]  Because, from my experience...
[24:14.210 --> 24:17.730]  I mean, you've got to take a driver's test every once in a while.
[24:18.430 --> 24:20.870]  You've got to take a vision test when you get a license.
[24:21.110 --> 24:23.630]  But, I mean, these people are affecting people's lives.
[24:24.810 --> 24:26.970]  You know, there's got to be some...
[24:26.970 --> 24:29.350]  There's just very little accountability for these folks.
[24:29.510 --> 24:32.370]  And, you know, I think there's some good law enforcement officers out there.
[24:32.370 --> 24:42.150]  But, you know, they don't have to really prove that they understand the laws and the rights that they're responsible for understanding and enforcing.
[24:43.050 --> 24:43.470]  And...
[24:43.470 --> 24:43.950]  Well, I'm sorry.
[24:45.950 --> 24:46.530]  Go ahead.
[24:47.310 --> 24:47.890]  All right.
[24:48.490 --> 24:50.250]  Actually, for the RNC, I just want to bring up...
[24:50.250 --> 24:51.470]  You mentioned the civil rights.
[24:52.310 --> 24:54.430]  The city of Philadelphia, they actually...
[24:54.430 --> 24:57.230]  They kind of looked at the civil rights before the RNC.
[24:57.230 --> 25:02.690]  And they decided to get $10 million insurance for civil rights violations for during the protest.
[25:03.010 --> 25:05.010]  At city taxpayers' expense, I might add.
[25:05.090 --> 25:12.650]  So, it looks like they did look before these things and they figured, we'll just, you know, steamroll these protesters for the meantime.
[25:12.950 --> 25:16.370]  And, you know, have this insurance in the background so we can cover it.
[25:16.530 --> 25:18.830]  But, right now, we just wanted to get them off the streets.
[25:18.990 --> 25:22.150]  And so they, you know, it was political reasons that they were just...
[25:22.150 --> 25:24.650]  It's just amazing that the city of Philadelphia would take out...
[25:24.650 --> 25:26.710]  It's a $10 million insurance policy.
[25:26.710 --> 25:26.750]  Yeah.
[25:27.590 --> 25:28.390]  Against violate...
[25:28.390 --> 25:30.790]  Against being sued for violating people's civil rights.
[25:31.270 --> 25:34.210]  And, clearly, they knew something was going to happen, you know.
[25:35.550 --> 25:43.230]  And, you know, they bought this insurance policy with my tax dollars and Terrence's tax dollars and your tax dollars if you happen to live in Philadelphia.
[25:43.670 --> 25:46.090]  And, you know, so they felt...
[25:46.090 --> 25:49.790]  I guess they felt this insurance policy was carte blanche to, like, hey, we can do whatever we want.
[25:49.890 --> 25:50.530]  It's covered.
[25:51.950 --> 25:52.350]  Yeah.
[25:52.490 --> 25:52.890]  I think...
[25:52.890 --> 25:53.410]  I think...
[25:53.410 --> 25:56.110]  Also, I think whenever a case is...
[25:56.830 --> 26:04.710]  A civil rights case is found in favor of a defendant or a suspect, I think the awards should not come out of taxpayers' pockets.
[26:05.470 --> 26:06.550]  I mean, what's with that?
[26:06.750 --> 26:07.790]  I mean, there's no accountability.
[26:08.070 --> 26:08.830]  I think the...
[26:08.830 --> 26:11.230]  I mean, we're getting into the fairness thing, which is a little far afield here.
[26:11.350 --> 26:19.530]  But shouldn't the awards for these civil rights violations come out of either the officer's own pockets or the budgets of the law enforcement agency that guy worked for?
[26:19.750 --> 26:21.390]  I mean, let's get real.
[26:23.650 --> 26:30.870]  Oh, I was going to bounce off what Bernie said before as far as testing police on civil rights issues.
[26:31.330 --> 26:32.610]  It's a wonderful idea.
[26:32.750 --> 26:33.890]  I definitely think it should happen.
[26:33.890 --> 26:36.070]  However, it's...
[26:36.670 --> 26:40.090]  We're a far step from it now, especially in New York.
[26:40.090 --> 26:48.310]  They just decided to allow police cadets that have DWI indictments before them.
[26:48.430 --> 26:50.870]  So they're lowering their standards, not hiring them.
[26:51.350 --> 27:04.030]  You know, at least, you know, one of the unintended consequences of September 11th was to attract a considerable number of people to the police department that probably have a legitimate interest in, you know, enforcing the law.
[27:04.150 --> 27:07.610]  Maybe people with a lot more respect and decency than they previously had.
[27:07.610 --> 27:13.630]  But for some reason, the New York City Police Department is drastically lowering their standards for police officers.
[27:13.870 --> 27:15.490]  And it's a bad situation.
[27:15.490 --> 27:17.210]  And if this continues, it's only going to get worse.
[27:17.430 --> 27:26.630]  And especially now, when more law enforcement officers are being hired in droves because of September 11th, clearly the bar is being lowered.
[27:26.990 --> 27:35.810]  The standard of quality, I think, is going to suffer as we rush to, you know, protect the nation from terrorists.
[27:35.810 --> 27:38.530]  It's just, you know, just look at the airport security thing.
[27:39.250 --> 27:40.630]  It's not getting better.
[27:41.190 --> 27:55.310]  And it's going to get worse because, you know, in their zeal to hire more people, they're clearly, if they have deadlines to hire people by a certain date, you know, they're not going to be able to have the same quality standards that they would normally.
[27:55.810 --> 27:58.790]  Terrence, or ShapeShifter, wanted to mention a couple other things here.
[27:58.790 --> 28:02.730]  He brought up, there's the whole thing about bail.
[28:02.970 --> 28:04.410]  A lot of people understand how bail works.
[28:04.910 --> 28:09.970]  There's, from my understanding, there's two constitutional reasons for holding someone on bail.
[28:10.090 --> 28:10.630]  Alec, is that right?
[28:11.110 --> 28:11.250]  Yeah.
[28:11.750 --> 28:14.770]  Risk of flight and danger to the community.
[28:15.190 --> 28:20.470]  I'm not sure if danger to yourself is part of that, but to danger to the community, it's part of danger to the community because you're part of the community, I guess.
[28:20.810 --> 28:24.350]  Like if somebody was, like, arrested for attempted suicide, I guess.
[28:24.350 --> 28:25.250]  But it's danger to himself.
[28:25.430 --> 28:28.330]  Then you've been put in protective custody if you're... that...
[28:28.330 --> 28:28.570]  Yeah.
[28:28.930 --> 28:29.750]  Well, that's a whole other thing.
[28:30.670 --> 28:31.050]  Protective custody.
[28:31.410 --> 28:37.850]  And, unfortunately, what they usually use bail as is a punitive measure to punish you for being suspected.
[28:38.470 --> 28:41.370]  You know, they'll ask for a ridiculously high bail.
[28:41.510 --> 28:43.230]  I mean, as I'm sure we'll get into right now.
[28:43.410 --> 28:54.770]  Terrence, ShapeShifter, was held on a half million dollars bail for what ultimately resulted, it was founded by a judge to have no merit whatsoever.
[28:55.890 --> 28:57.030]  Now, go ahead.
[28:57.230 --> 29:00.490]  Well, my bail hearing was kind of... it was kind of hilarious, really.
[29:00.630 --> 29:08.470]  I was in this little room in the precinct and there's a little TV split into four corners and on the, like, upper left-hand corner was me.
[29:08.690 --> 29:10.850]  I saw myself talking to a little telephone.
[29:11.470 --> 29:16.250]  The bail magistrate, the defense attorney, which they were just sitting in the courtroom.
[29:16.250 --> 29:24.730]  The court... the... both the attorneys are sitting there in the courtroom with the judge and you're in a precinct with a telephone and it's by closed circuit TV.
[29:25.030 --> 29:28.250]  So, you have to, like, have your bail hearing over the telephone.
[29:28.450 --> 29:32.510]  And, supposedly, you get to talk to your lawyer over the phone with the TV thing.
[29:32.610 --> 29:33.590]  It's really weird, isn't it?
[29:33.810 --> 29:34.110]  Right beforehand.
[29:34.410 --> 29:36.390]  It's usually a public defender, but...
[29:36.390 --> 29:40.650]  Yeah, that's how I found out I got a $500,000 bail over the TV.
[29:42.450 --> 29:45.510]  So, if you're from Philadelphia and get arrested, you might notice that.
[29:45.910 --> 29:49.710]  The other thing is, to get the $500,000 bail, they brought up...
[29:50.390 --> 29:54.110]  They just had this whole, like, manufactured idea of, like, who I was.
[29:54.270 --> 29:58.610]  They said that I was, you know, starting these protests in all these cities.
[29:58.630 --> 30:02.750]  You know, I was at the Seattle protest, which I'd never even been to the West Coast before.
[30:03.050 --> 30:06.970]  They were just, like, listing off all these things and all these things I was organizing.
[30:06.970 --> 30:10.950]  The reasons for bail are often very creatively justified.
[30:11.310 --> 30:12.730]  In my case, I was...
[30:12.730 --> 30:13.410]  I'm sorry?
[30:13.670 --> 30:15.670]  There was just a few other things that they did.
[30:15.850 --> 30:25.110]  They also said that I was a high flight risk because the Ruckus Society, which they associated me with, which does trainings for activists, they said that they were getting Soviet funding.
[30:27.430 --> 30:29.590]  Well, actually, it wasn't directly Soviet funding.
[30:29.750 --> 30:35.490]  It was the labor union that was, you know, back in the day, was associated with the Soviet Union.
[30:35.490 --> 30:43.950]  I don't... they got this from this right-wing think-tank guy, I think it was the Molden Institute, who put up this, like, you know, write-up about the...
[30:43.950 --> 30:45.650]  And who would they be, Terrence?
[30:46.290 --> 30:47.650]  The Molden Institute, yeah.
[30:48.770 --> 30:50.110]  It's just... I don't know.
[30:50.210 --> 30:51.890]  I forget the guy exactly what he is.
[30:51.910 --> 31:00.070]  It's basically some right-wing guy who funded some institute to provide objective information to law enforcement agencies about... about this sort of stuff.
[31:03.210 --> 31:03.650]  Um...
[31:03.650 --> 31:04.230]  We don't know.
[31:04.410 --> 31:05.170]  How do you spell it?
[31:05.350 --> 31:06.910]  I'm not sure if he even has a website.
[31:07.090 --> 31:12.230]  He caters directly to law enforcement and just sends out these reports, and they sometimes listen to them.
[31:12.870 --> 31:15.250]  I just want to correct something you said real quick.
[31:16.090 --> 31:20.050]  Law enforcement has a minimum of two years of university education.
[31:20.270 --> 31:21.890]  They're not idiot imbeciles.
[31:21.890 --> 31:25.410]  Did I say law enforcement officers were idiot imbeciles at all?
[31:25.650 --> 31:30.310]  No, I was just informing you that they are educated on the constitutional rights.
[31:30.470 --> 31:30.610]  Sure.
[31:31.230 --> 31:32.870]  They would have, like, an associate degree.
[31:33.130 --> 31:33.890]  Every year they take continuing education.
[31:34.290 --> 31:34.710]  Absolutely.
[31:35.570 --> 31:38.130]  But, you know, ten years down the road...
[31:38.130 --> 31:39.090]  That's why they got insurance.
[31:39.210 --> 31:41.530]  They're going to remember everything they learned in that associate's degree.
[31:42.130 --> 31:42.770]  I mean...
[31:42.770 --> 31:43.830]  Community college, yeah!
[31:44.030 --> 31:44.270]  Yeah.
[31:44.590 --> 31:45.030]  That's Harriet.
[31:46.970 --> 31:48.050]  No, I agree.
[31:48.210 --> 31:49.150]  They have training.
[31:49.670 --> 31:53.390]  But, frankly, whether they apply that training is another issue.
[31:53.690 --> 31:57.110]  And there seems to be no follow-up after that training.
[31:57.230 --> 32:00.050]  Even professional engineers have to be retested.
[32:01.410 --> 32:08.730]  But law enforcement officers, as far as I know, they don't have to show that they really understand constitutional issues inside and out.
[32:09.290 --> 32:13.150]  As far as bail stuff, this is really important because people are held...
[32:13.150 --> 32:13.670]  People are...
[32:13.670 --> 32:13.950]  I'm sorry?
[32:14.450 --> 32:17.070]  Except for the tests they have to pass every year.
[32:17.990 --> 32:19.490]  On constitutional issues?
[32:19.890 --> 32:21.450]  That's why they got insurance.
[32:21.910 --> 32:22.010]  Yeah.
[32:22.430 --> 32:26.990]  Well, I think that we're all products of the people we come into contact with.
[32:27.150 --> 32:28.330]  We're all products of our experience.
[32:28.610 --> 32:33.910]  I haven't had a tremendous amount of very polite experiences with police officers.
[32:33.910 --> 32:38.730]  I think that, to some extent, they could become guilty by association.
[32:38.730 --> 32:46.470]  When you deal with corrupt police, when you deal with a bunch of schmucks who don't give a crap about civil rights, you're going to become one yourself.
[32:46.730 --> 32:47.670]  You can't help it.
[32:48.070 --> 32:50.410]  I mean, just look at all of us here at H2K2.
[32:50.510 --> 32:52.890]  We're all guilty by association too, but in a positive way.
[32:53.030 --> 32:56.350]  If you're in a negative police department, you can't help it.
[32:56.410 --> 32:57.870]  You're going to be...
[32:58.410 --> 33:00.890]  As far as integrity goes, I mean, it has some...
[33:00.890 --> 33:03.690]  It does help, but you really can't help it.
[33:03.790 --> 33:06.490]  You're going to be corrupted in some extent.
[33:06.730 --> 33:16.370]  If everybody violates civil liberties, if that becomes the normal procedure of the way in which the police department does business, and you're a member of the police department, that's your job.
[33:16.530 --> 33:17.730]  You have to follow suit.
[33:17.830 --> 33:18.730]  You have to follow orders.
[33:19.590 --> 33:36.550]  The bail thing is really important because that is something where your freedom is determined or not from the get-go, whether you're going to be locked up in a cage for who knows how long, or whether you're going to be able to be free to defend yourself and have free access to an attorney,
[33:36.670 --> 33:39.350]  legal materials, other resources that you'll need to defend your case.
[33:41.050 --> 33:55.530]  This kind of abuse happens all the time, but in my personal experience, I was held without bail in a federal district court in Philadelphia for both reasons, flight risk and danger to the community.
[33:55.990 --> 34:01.190]  The flight risk argument was based on something that was found in my wallet.
[34:01.410 --> 34:05.990]  It was a novelty press pass that said Bernie S.
[34:06.110 --> 34:08.630]  on it and was from...
[34:08.630 --> 34:11.690]  I got it like... I must have got it 15, 20 years ago.
[34:11.690 --> 34:27.810]  I had my picture on it and basically it said anyone... it said press on one side, it said pull on the other side in reference to a Three Stooges episode where they used a knob from a towel dispenser that said pull and press and so forth.
[34:28.110 --> 34:28.870]  You had to see the show.
[34:28.990 --> 34:36.250]  Anyway, they didn't bring that card into the courtroom or it would have been pretty funny, and that's why they didn't bring it into the courtroom.
[34:36.250 --> 34:44.570]  But in the card said anyone and everyone... in an age of disinformation, anyone and everyone is... should be a reporter.
[34:44.770 --> 34:48.250]  And it listed four or five reasons why this person should be a member of the press.
[34:48.510 --> 34:50.370]  And it had my picture on it, it said Bernie S.
[34:50.490 --> 34:50.670]  on it.
[34:50.830 --> 35:01.030]  And this Secret Service agent got up on the stand and swore that I had false identification, indicating I was a member of the press, which would give me access to officials and I posed a danger to them.
[35:01.030 --> 35:04.770]  And because of this false identification, it proved that I had the ability to flee.
[35:05.270 --> 35:06.910]  And it blew my mind.
[35:07.010 --> 35:07.830]  I'm like, where are they coming from?
[35:07.950 --> 35:09.790]  And the danger of the community thing was pretty good, too.
[35:10.530 --> 35:14.630]  When my home was searched, they found my library, which had approximately 2,000 books.
[35:14.670 --> 35:16.070]  I collect information.
[35:16.390 --> 35:21.870]  And probably three or four books were on how fireworks and explosives were made.
[35:21.870 --> 35:29.830]  And these were government books, like some book that the Army had issued 50 years ago, World War II, whatever.
[35:31.370 --> 35:37.170]  My arrest happened... well, that hearing happened exactly a week after the Oklahoma City bombing.
[35:37.830 --> 35:46.290]  And just as I was being taken to that courthouse, that whole building had to be evacuated because there was a whole rash of copycat bomb threats.
[35:46.290 --> 35:56.990]  So when I finally got into the courtroom a few hours later after this evacuation, all the prosecutor had to say is, Your Honor, we found books on explosives and bomb making.
[35:57.270 --> 36:00.490]  These are government books on explosives and bomb making.
[36:00.590 --> 36:02.070]  In the defendant's house.
[36:02.190 --> 36:05.270]  And for that reason, he found this is a grave risk of community.
[36:05.470 --> 36:08.910]  And the judge just slammed down his gavel and said, no bail.
[36:08.910 --> 36:21.270]  It was just amazing that I could be held without bail on a novelty ID card and some government publications that no evidence was offered that I'd had anything dangerous in my home.
[36:21.310 --> 36:22.790]  And in fact, there was nothing dangerous in my home.
[36:22.870 --> 36:27.990]  But that's how this stuff is creatively used to hold someone without bail or at a high bail.
[36:29.690 --> 36:30.090]  Why...
[36:30.810 --> 36:33.330]  I'd like to get into other things too, but that would take too long.
[36:34.350 --> 36:37.790]  Demonizing the defendant when the evidence is weak in order to hold and convict them.
[36:37.790 --> 36:41.350]  That's happened a lot in many cases, especially hacker cases.
[36:41.750 --> 36:47.170]  In Terrence's case, he was put up on the homepage of the Philadelphia Police Department's website.
[36:47.690 --> 36:51.210]  And just... it was a great picture by the way, I like that.
[36:52.270 --> 36:56.190]  It just looked like a rogue's gallery of terrorists basically.
[36:56.750 --> 37:01.850]  And the statements they come up in court with, you know...
[37:01.850 --> 37:10.690]  I was described basically, without using the word terrorist, this was before 9-11, as someone who was just extremely dangerous to the community because of the information in my possession.
[37:11.390 --> 37:13.370]  But they didn't say it was because he had this information.
[37:13.370 --> 37:20.630]  They just made it look like I was using this information to create havoc and risk of everyone's lives in the world.
[37:20.850 --> 37:24.810]  It was truly amazing that this could be taken seriously by a judge.
[37:24.910 --> 37:25.710]  But they don't even blink.
[37:25.970 --> 37:27.290]  And they just swallow it.
[37:27.410 --> 37:28.050]  Pretty amazing.
[37:29.290 --> 37:30.050]  Judicial shopping.
[37:30.170 --> 37:30.390]  Go ahead.
[37:30.850 --> 37:34.990]  There's a... in my case, the way they demonized, they used the media a lot.
[37:35.290 --> 37:40.030]  Which, you know, I'm sure seeing the Kevin Mitnick cases, and in your case too, they used the media a lot.
[37:41.050 --> 37:46.470]  They had this great... they leaked some information, probably from my bail hearing to the ABC News.
[37:46.650 --> 37:48.090]  And they did this two-minute piece.
[37:48.250 --> 37:51.310]  They were like, John Sellers and his sidekick, Terrence McGuckin.
[37:51.530 --> 37:52.830]  I got to be the sidekick.
[37:54.910 --> 37:58.570]  They were... yeah, this guy didn't even do any of the organizing.
[37:58.570 --> 37:59.710]  I was a little offended.
[37:59.950 --> 38:01.570]  I mean, he just comes into town.
[38:01.570 --> 38:02.230]  He got all the credit.
[38:02.430 --> 38:03.470]  I know.
[38:04.070 --> 38:05.410]  And the million dollars bail.
[38:05.530 --> 38:05.970]  But anyway.
[38:07.830 --> 38:12.170]  So they're like, these two figures both have a previous history with the law.
[38:12.570 --> 38:20.350]  And they're like... then they clipped to this thing of like the Seattle protest with these riot cops firing tear gas canisters, people running down the street.
[38:20.950 --> 38:25.470]  And that's like, you know, they're just basically saying that we're responsible for chaos and mayhem.
[38:25.630 --> 38:29.950]  And they just cut to these different things that we really didn't have anything to do with.
[38:30.070 --> 38:35.530]  Law enforcement is very skilled and practiced in using the media to get their message across.
[38:35.810 --> 38:40.690]  When, in many cases, the defendant is locked in a cage and has no access to the media.
[38:40.790 --> 38:42.850]  Actually, I had some access to the media during my case.
[38:42.930 --> 38:46.990]  I was able to call into off the hook and explain what was going on in my case.
[38:46.990 --> 38:49.610]  And that had an awful lot to do with my eventual release.
[38:49.990 --> 39:00.590]  I would not have been released when I was, you know, 14 months later, had not listeners off the hook bombarded the prison and public officials in my area with phone calls and faxes.
[39:00.770 --> 39:02.470]  It just... it made a real difference.
[39:02.610 --> 39:05.130]  But that was a very unique situation I was in.
[39:05.450 --> 39:08.630]  You know, the vast majority of people don't have access to the media at all.
[39:08.890 --> 39:10.250]  And, you know, basically it's a black hole.
[39:10.350 --> 39:11.250]  You get in there and...
[39:11.250 --> 39:18.170]  As many defendants told me in prison, it's extremely easy to get into that system and extremely difficult to get out.
[39:18.910 --> 39:24.790]  Alex, I wanted you to touch on something I noticed is judicial shopping, what I call judicial shopping.
[39:24.950 --> 39:31.370]  Seeking out judges most likely to overlook police misconduct, weak affidavits and deficient warrant applications.
[39:32.010 --> 39:35.310]  Well, a lot of judges happen to be former prosecutors.
[39:35.710 --> 39:37.630]  In fact, we have that a lot in Suffolk County.
[39:37.630 --> 39:42.710]  A lot of them go straight from a career in the district attorney's office to an elected position as a judge.
[39:43.050 --> 39:46.130]  And, well, all their old buddies are still in the district attorney's office.
[39:46.330 --> 39:56.730]  So they would be, like Bernie said, it's quite clear, more likely to overlook police misconduct since they were in the business of doing this thing before as a successful prosecutor.
[39:57.030 --> 39:59.530]  These judges had to be very successful as a prosecutor.
[39:59.650 --> 40:00.530]  They know the ins and outs.
[40:00.530 --> 40:02.890]  They really favor the side of law enforcement.
[40:03.070 --> 40:09.270]  And there's quite a few of them, especially in towns and cities where the judges are elected.
[40:11.050 --> 40:12.150]  They're very politically affiliated.
[40:12.150 --> 40:13.270]  Prosecutors in robes.
[40:13.650 --> 40:13.950]  Yeah.
[40:15.070 --> 40:16.950]  It's a political position.
[40:17.390 --> 40:20.490]  And it's, like, again, it's another dangerous situation.
[40:20.490 --> 40:24.570]  And it's something that prosecutors definitely look for.
[40:24.750 --> 40:28.010]  They look for their old friends that sit on the bench now.
[40:28.010 --> 40:29.110]  And there's quite a few of them.
[40:29.350 --> 40:30.790]  We'll take some questions in a second.
[40:30.910 --> 40:35.130]  I just wanted to, not without giving examples, just read a couple more things for you to think about.
[40:35.950 --> 40:41.470]  Federal agents, I found, and there's a hierarchy in the law enforcement community.
[40:41.610 --> 40:46.630]  There's a local, city, state, and federal law enforcement agencies.
[40:46.970 --> 40:57.550]  But we've noticed the Secret Service and other federal agencies frequently would use local police and even security guards as proxies in order to circumvent their own rules.
[40:57.550 --> 41:03.950]  You know, 2600 meetings had been under surveillance by security guard proxies before.
[41:04.190 --> 41:11.250]  Local police, in my case, were used as proxies by the Secret Service and later admitted to doing that in court.
[41:11.410 --> 41:14.650]  Because those federal agents have to hold a higher standard.
[41:16.030 --> 41:18.150]  And they do stick to the sire standard.
[41:18.310 --> 41:19.710]  They're just more creative in how they get around it.
[41:19.870 --> 41:28.890]  But there's this whole accountability thing that goes down and it's easy to pass the buck down to an area where the accountability is very lax.
[41:30.150 --> 41:35.230]  Using incarceration to hinder an effective defense, you know, it's very difficult to fight a case while you're locked up.
[41:36.470 --> 41:44.430]  There seems to be no accountability to... with prison administrators and guards... prison guards with regard to constitutional rights.
[41:44.530 --> 41:47.010]  It's allowing you to make phone calls to your attorney, that sort of thing.
[41:48.850 --> 41:55.370]  Seizure of your assets or making them inaccessible to a defendant for financing his defense.
[41:55.550 --> 41:57.670]  Like, if they take your money, how are you going to hire a lawyer?
[41:57.830 --> 42:06.210]  If they take all your records, how can you use those records to say, Hey, well look, I had this receipt saying that I was here at this time, that sort of thing, and they conveniently lose it.
[42:07.510 --> 42:10.370]  Technical evidence and the need for expensive expert witnesses.
[42:10.650 --> 42:13.590]  The government can get all these expert witnesses with unlimited budget.
[42:13.790 --> 42:16.970]  And they can spring the surprise stuff to you at the last minute.
[42:17.050 --> 42:20.170]  And you've got to instantly come up with an expert witness that says...
[42:20.750 --> 42:24.830]  That opposes this law enforcement agent's expert testimony.
[42:24.990 --> 42:26.110]  Very difficult to get around.
[42:28.130 --> 42:30.190]  The art of perjury in the courtroom.
[42:30.190 --> 42:39.010]  Judges, I find, are loath to ever find a law enforcement officer not credible or guilty of perjury.
[42:39.150 --> 42:42.970]  Because that law enforcement officer would never again be able to be used in a case.
[42:43.070 --> 42:44.230]  They'd be basically out of business.
[42:44.390 --> 42:48.550]  If a defense attorney could say, well, didn't a judge find you not credible in this case?
[42:48.670 --> 42:51.030]  Or weren't you found to have not told the truth in this case?
[42:51.130 --> 42:52.270]  It almost never happens.
[42:53.870 --> 42:55.150]  Let's take some questions, I guess.
[42:55.550 --> 42:56.370]  Yeah, I think so.
[42:56.370 --> 43:04.570]  I was just wondering if you have any legal advice about using recording devices or jury rigging, say, a webcam or something in your car or whatever to possibly trap.
[43:04.870 --> 43:05.910]  Video is okay.
[43:06.170 --> 43:10.030]  Audio is not okay in most cities or most jurisdictions.
[43:10.030 --> 43:15.710]  Do not covertly tape record a conversation with a law enforcement officer or anybody else.
[43:16.210 --> 43:20.350]  Because that's considered wiretaping in many states and you can do federal time for it.
[43:20.590 --> 43:27.730]  If you do insist on taping what's going on, your encounter with the law enforcement, make sure you tell them that you're going to tape it.
[43:27.930 --> 43:28.910]  Don't do it covertly.
[43:29.190 --> 43:33.050]  That's the best way to absolve yourself of any kind of legal responsibility in wiretapping.
[43:34.030 --> 43:37.350]  A good trick, though, is to have two tape recorders, one concealed and one you're holding.
[43:37.650 --> 43:41.030]  And while you're talking to them, say, okay, I'm going to turn this off after you gave me consent.
[43:41.370 --> 43:42.970]  And they don't know you have the other one going.
[43:43.110 --> 43:44.830]  Most of them are so dumb, they'll never get that trick.
[43:46.650 --> 43:47.490]  I did that once.
[43:47.570 --> 43:47.810]  Next.
[43:55.070 --> 43:55.390]  Hi.
[43:55.970 --> 44:03.370]  I've had a little experience teaching future law enforcement officers at the university level in a criminal justice program.
[44:03.370 --> 44:08.770]  I did this while I was clerking for a federal judge, but I did an adjunct professorship on the side.
[44:12.590 --> 44:13.010]  Oh.
[44:18.830 --> 44:19.510]  Just yell.
[44:24.690 --> 44:28.070]  Well, we only have like a couple of minutes, so can you maybe just shout.
[44:28.390 --> 44:29.210]  Maybe we can repeat it.
[44:29.510 --> 44:32.510]  The bottom line is that there are a lot of really well-defined.
[44:38.710 --> 44:48.070]  But I don't think it's easy enough to say these people know all about constitutional law because they've had an associate's degree at the university level.
[44:48.250 --> 44:49.790]  The testing idea is a good one.
[44:49.870 --> 44:58.430]  It's problematic for both some practical and some political reasons for the very reason that testing at the elementary school level.
[44:58.550 --> 45:00.370]  I think you raise an excellent point.
[45:00.370 --> 45:03.130]  I think most law enforcement officers are well-meaning.
[45:03.270 --> 45:05.990]  But whose meaning are we talking about?
[45:06.310 --> 45:06.850]  You know?
[45:07.070 --> 45:15.750]  If they're well-meaning, they want to do the right thing as they see it as opposed to, in many cases, what is constitutionally proper.
[45:15.750 --> 45:29.590]  And notwithstanding any amount of legal education or knowledge they may have as regards to their associate's degree, their knowledge of civil rights and criminal procedure and what they're obligated to do or not do, the most important thing to remember,
[45:29.810 --> 45:33.930]  again, is not to take their advice as legal advice.
[45:34.570 --> 45:35.970]  Always speak to an attorney.
[45:36.150 --> 45:40.050]  No matter what the police tell you, they usually have some kind of underlying motive.
[45:40.270 --> 45:41.770]  They have ulterior motives.
[45:42.250 --> 45:42.930]  They're there to...
[45:43.790 --> 45:45.030]  It's their job to get a prosecution.
[45:45.510 --> 45:45.830]  Yes.
[45:46.050 --> 45:48.730]  Their job is not to protect everybody's constitutional rights.
[45:48.790 --> 45:49.690]  Their job is to get a prosecution.
[45:49.930 --> 45:51.230]  And they're rewarded for their success.
[45:51.490 --> 45:51.630]  Yeah.
[45:51.750 --> 45:53.170]  According to me, I've got, what, two, three minutes?
[45:53.450 --> 45:54.350]  Three minutes.
[45:55.250 --> 46:01.350]  Is expungement just an expensive joke because it's never really totally out of the system?
[46:01.610 --> 46:02.710]  Is what expensive joke?
[46:02.850 --> 46:03.290]  Expungement.
[46:03.290 --> 46:03.390]  Expungement.
[46:03.690 --> 46:04.670]  Expungement of records.
[46:05.050 --> 46:06.210]  It's basically fiction.
[46:06.670 --> 46:10.510]  Well, sometimes, like, your records aren't really expunged, but...
[46:10.510 --> 46:11.270]  No, they're not.
[46:11.410 --> 46:12.230]  Actually, I would...
[46:12.230 --> 46:14.290]  But it's useful if you're in the NCIC computers...
[46:14.970 --> 46:15.150]  Yeah.
[46:15.310 --> 46:17.230]  ...and you're trying to go to a different country or whatever.
[46:17.550 --> 46:19.390]  Usually, they'll take you out of that sometimes.
[46:20.110 --> 46:23.830]  And that happened in my case, and I was able to get into a country that wasn't...
[46:23.830 --> 46:27.290]  And you've got to get a judge to sign off on this expungement, doesn't it?
[46:27.290 --> 46:27.350]  Yeah.
[46:27.350 --> 46:28.350]  It never happens automatically.
[46:28.570 --> 46:29.690]  These records don't just disappear.
[46:29.850 --> 46:30.490]  They keep...
[46:30.490 --> 46:32.570]  They save information like I save information.
[46:32.570 --> 46:34.350]  You know, so...
[46:35.510 --> 46:36.170]  Next question?
[46:37.750 --> 46:39.790]  First, I'd like to thank you, gentlemen, for speaking today.
[46:40.190 --> 46:47.290]  And I'd like to encourage everyone here to take a hobby in studying law and to really learn what's out there.
[46:47.290 --> 46:54.290]  Because it can be a friend as well as it can hurt you if you don't understand it, learn to use it, and not use it against you.
[46:54.290 --> 46:54.830]  Very...
[46:54.830 --> 46:55.670]  It's fascinating stuff.
[46:55.810 --> 46:56.970]  Everybody should be an amateur lawyer.
[46:57.090 --> 46:58.650]  Just get some law books and start reading them.
[46:58.770 --> 46:59.770]  It's really interesting stuff.
[47:00.290 --> 47:00.890]  That's true.
[47:04.790 --> 47:08.270]  I don't know how much you guys have experienced this personally.
[47:08.490 --> 47:09.750]  I mean, I personally am a father.
[47:09.750 --> 47:13.170]  I don't know if people here are fathers have children or mothers have children.
[47:13.350 --> 47:16.710]  But have you guys ever looked into family court and what kind of abuse goes on there?
[47:17.190 --> 47:18.510]  Basically, there's no probable cause.
[47:18.630 --> 47:20.150]  There's no right to an attorney.
[47:20.290 --> 47:20.870]  There's no...
[47:20.870 --> 47:22.650]  They don't have to notify you before they bring evidence in.
[47:22.670 --> 47:24.030]  We could do a whole panel discussion on that.
[47:24.190 --> 47:24.910]  It's a great issue.
[47:25.010 --> 47:26.650]  Unfortunately, we just didn't have time to touch on that.
[47:26.710 --> 47:27.590]  But you're absolutely right.
[47:27.690 --> 47:29.470]  There's a completely different standard there.
[47:29.870 --> 47:30.030]  Yeah.
[47:30.310 --> 47:31.110]  There definitely is.
[47:31.170 --> 47:33.050]  Like I said, we should probably go on to the next question.
[47:33.050 --> 47:33.230]  Do you know?
[47:33.590 --> 47:35.490]  My question is mostly directed at Bernie.
[47:35.670 --> 47:48.870]  When you talked about how your bail hearing was influenced by the materials they found in your domicile, I was just wondering what you would recommend to people who might have that sort of stuff.
[47:49.030 --> 47:49.710]  Because I'm sure...
[47:49.710 --> 47:54.090]  I mean, at the very least, people here probably have a couple of issues at 2600 or whatnot.
[47:54.610 --> 48:04.550]  I would bet that a large percentage of people in this room, if they're home or searched by overzealous law enforcement officers, that probable cause could be found for something.
[48:04.710 --> 48:09.050]  And they could be held on bail or high bail or no bail.
[48:09.830 --> 48:10.710]  Do you have a suggestion?
[48:11.090 --> 48:14.330]  Get a storage location and a different name and keep everything there, I guess.
[48:14.410 --> 48:15.910]  And encrypt all your files, I guess.
[48:16.250 --> 48:18.990]  I've got a bunch of cards here.
[48:19.050 --> 48:20.490]  I think everybody should come up and pick up one.
[48:21.030 --> 48:24.690]  It has the Fourth Amendment printed on the back and it has a notice to law enforcement officers.
[48:24.690 --> 48:28.490]  I do not consent to a search of my purse and house papers, effects, or motor vehicle.
[48:28.670 --> 48:31.950]  I retain my Fourth Amendment rights and all other rights under the United States Constitution.
[48:32.210 --> 48:34.510]  You sign it and you just hand it to them.
[48:34.730 --> 48:37.710]  And you can say, you know, later that you gave it to them.
[48:37.790 --> 48:39.790]  Of course, they'll lie and say, I never saw that, but whatever.
[48:39.990 --> 48:40.510]  Take the cards.
[48:40.650 --> 48:41.370]  Please, come up and get them.
[48:42.670 --> 48:43.230]  Thank you.
[48:43.690 --> 48:44.170]  Thank you.
[48:44.170 --> 48:57.840]  Thank you.