[00:00.000 --> 00:08.620]  And if you happen to see something that someone else left and doesn't look too nasty, then please also clean that up and that becomes a positive reinforcing loop, which we like in science.
[00:09.040 --> 00:17.300]  Okay, so first talk of Sunday, which will get a positive end to the Saturday experience.
[00:17.580 --> 00:20.800]  This is updates from the online identity battlefield.
[00:23.960 --> 00:24.480]  Thanks.
[00:25.860 --> 00:27.160]  My name is Kaliya.
[00:27.800 --> 00:28.560]  Uh-oh.
[00:29.200 --> 00:29.980]  That just went out.
[00:30.480 --> 00:36.160]  Yes, I am a homonym with the Federal Wiretapping Act, but it's spelled differently.
[00:36.320 --> 00:37.460]  And my handle is Identity Women.
[00:37.640 --> 00:39.840]  And I'm really psyched to be here.
[00:40.020 --> 00:43.840]  I'm much... I'm really enjoying the conference.
[00:44.060 --> 00:45.080]  It's got a good vibe.
[00:45.080 --> 00:49.400]  The first hacker-ish conference I went to was 10 years ago at OzCon.
[00:49.740 --> 00:52.940]  And that year, the women who were there were really excited.
[00:53.100 --> 00:58.400]  The bathroom on the floor that the conference was on was open because there was enough of them to make it open.
[00:58.400 --> 01:00.860]  The year before, they had turned it into a men's bathroom.
[01:01.080 --> 01:05.400]  And there's enough... There's a significant minority of women here.
[01:05.400 --> 01:07.260]  And it's been changing, I'm told.
[01:07.320 --> 01:08.060]  And it's great.
[01:08.080 --> 01:09.320]  So I'm psyched to be here.
[01:09.800 --> 01:11.600]  And aestetix invited me.
[01:13.160 --> 01:14.760]  And these are our...
[01:14.760 --> 01:15.200]  Tentions for the talk.
[01:15.200 --> 01:16.140]  Hello, aestetix, yes.
[01:17.020 --> 01:18.600]  Yeah, because I submitted this talk.
[01:18.620 --> 01:24.160]  And they said, we need somebody with a more policy, legal background to be liaison to it.
[01:24.220 --> 01:25.480]  And I'm like, hey, Kaliya, you want to come?
[01:25.820 --> 01:26.100]  Yeah.
[01:26.220 --> 01:27.780]  And she's like, I don't know.
[01:28.040 --> 01:29.980]  And while she's still here, she hasn't run away yet.
[01:30.260 --> 01:30.980]  Yeah, it's good.
[01:30.980 --> 01:32.940]  You're not taped up in an elevator or something, so...
[01:32.940 --> 01:33.900]  Ugh, no.
[01:35.080 --> 01:41.820]  So our intentions for this talk are to give you an update on the online identity battle, like the Nymwars.
[01:42.980 --> 01:55.200]  Where the battle is continuing, which is around the struggle for the meaning of some of the key words, and then more particularly, the landscape of the national strategy for trusted identities in cyberspace.
[01:55.200 --> 01:57.060]  So this is the outline.
[01:57.060 --> 01:58.700]  We have these six sections.
[01:59.000 --> 02:00.020]  Who are we?
[02:00.900 --> 02:02.400]  Along with some updates.
[02:03.420 --> 02:04.620]  How we got connected.
[02:04.620 --> 02:06.140]  I'll tell you more about NSTIC.
[02:06.460 --> 02:09.480]  Words in the battlefield, along with some core concepts.
[02:09.820 --> 02:14.600]  Some pass forward and next steps, because we would love you all to join us in the NSTIC.
[02:14.920 --> 02:19.620]  And given Snowden's talk this morning, it's even more apt than I thought it would be.
[02:21.320 --> 02:22.960]  Okay, so the conscience passed to me.
[02:23.360 --> 02:24.500]  So first off, hi everyone.
[02:24.620 --> 02:25.180]  How are you doing?
[02:26.820 --> 02:27.640]  Yes, cool.
[02:28.660 --> 02:30.100]  So second question.
[02:30.400 --> 02:32.900]  How many of you have heard of the phrase Nymwars?
[02:33.600 --> 02:34.840]  It's a little...oh, f*ck, yeah.
[02:35.000 --> 02:38.100]  How many of you...actually, so since you know, how many got suspended during Nymwars?
[02:39.200 --> 02:39.940]  Okay, one.
[02:40.180 --> 02:41.340]  Okay, you're a weirdo then.
[02:43.040 --> 02:44.000]  Somebody said a bunch.
[02:44.080 --> 02:47.100]  Maybe not everybody wants to identify themselves.
[02:47.100 --> 02:48.860]  But we don't have anonymity anymore.
[02:49.380 --> 02:49.800]  Okay.
[02:50.560 --> 02:51.580]  Okay, so anyways.
[02:51.780 --> 02:58.820]  And as it says up on the slide, aestetix is a mononym that literally means one name, as opposed to a polynym, which would be like John Smith and whatnot.
[02:59.220 --> 03:08.880]  So the way I got into all of this is, three years ago, actually almost to the date, Google Plus rolled out, which was Google's kind of...it was sort of their competitor to Facebook.
[03:08.880 --> 03:12.920]  And I hate Facebook and I want Facebook to die a very harsh, painful death.
[03:13.980 --> 03:14.700]  And...oh, yeah?
[03:14.940 --> 03:15.760]  Applause, applause.
[03:16.940 --> 03:19.580]  And they keep getting worse and keep making dumber mistakes.
[03:19.740 --> 03:23.760]  But anyways, Google Plus rolls out and we're like, okay, maybe there's a contender to beat them.
[03:23.800 --> 03:26.940]  And I thought it was really cool and I signed up and then I got suspended.
[03:27.040 --> 03:28.840]  And I got a photo of my suspension on the next slide.
[03:29.100 --> 03:37.640]  But I want to point out that there was other people including, if you look on the right, William Shatner was actually suspended from Google Plus because Google didn't believe it was really him.
[03:37.640 --> 03:39.460]  Like Captain Kirk got kicked off.
[03:39.920 --> 03:46.800]  And to top that all up, he posted on his Twitter account about it, which by the way was a verified Twitter account, just to let everyone know.
[03:46.980 --> 03:52.600]  I believe that was resolved, but Google was identifying these things that they called name-shaped names.
[03:52.940 --> 03:58.320]  So if a name looked kind of funny, and yes, this is in the eye of the beholder, then it would just kind of get kicked off.
[03:58.400 --> 04:05.340]  And there's a whole lot of questions as to how they did it, whether it was an automated algorithm, whether it was people reporting abuse, et cetera, et cetera.
[04:05.340 --> 04:10.980]  So all this stuff happened, and I was suspended, and I gave a talk about this at HOPE Numner Nine.
[04:11.360 --> 04:21.980]  And I'll get into a little bit of it for background to contextualize, because you may have heard the news a couple days ago that Google retracted the names policy, which in my opinion is a step forward, but there's a lot more to be done.
[04:22.200 --> 04:32.060]  And by the way, one of the thesis points of the talk that I gave then, and I think is still very relevant now, is I make everyone ask the question, what is a real quote-unquote name?
[04:32.400 --> 04:35.640]  And it is my opinion that there is no such thing as a real name.
[04:35.800 --> 04:38.780]  And I won't have time to get into the tenets... oh, okay, applause, yay.
[04:39.140 --> 04:42.200]  But yeah, the real name concept is bullshit, in fact.
[04:42.400 --> 04:48.060]  And it's really scary if you start looking into the details, come up after, or if we extend off into the Q&A, ask me about that.
[04:48.060 --> 04:59.320]  And through this whole duration of tyranny, I wound up getting involved in this organization called NISTIC, or IDESG, and yes, it's as ominous and as scary to me, at least as it sounds.
[04:59.660 --> 05:02.080]  So, here's my self-portrait.
[05:02.820 --> 05:13.280]  So, by the way, I took this screenshot the first time I got suspended from Google+, and that community standards link you see up there is actually a dead link, because they didn't have everything set up properly when they did this.
[05:13.500 --> 05:18.580]  And I took this initially because I was trying to get somebody at Google to unsuspend me, because I wanted to use the service.
[05:18.740 --> 05:24.960]  And it wound up becoming a really useful documentary tool for basically preserving history to prove that this had happened.
[05:25.340 --> 05:30.060]  So, now that we have this established, it's like, well, what were people thinking at this time?
[05:30.160 --> 05:32.520]  Like, what were the conversations leading up to this?
[05:32.560 --> 05:40.220]  So, we can ask Eric Schmidt, executive chairman at Google, and these quotes started coming out around the time of Nemours.
[05:40.320 --> 05:41.260]  They started getting really heavy.
[05:41.400 --> 05:42.820]  So, you see that top quote there?
[05:42.900 --> 05:50.060]  The only way to manage this, by which we mean the online identity and trust issue, is true transparency and no anonymity, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[05:50.260 --> 05:56.160]  And the whole need for a verified name service is one of the things we're going to start to discuss with the NSTIC stuff.
[05:56.380 --> 05:57.880]  And governments will demand it.
[05:57.980 --> 06:01.480]  And that second part there, this quote has been passed around for a few years now.
[06:01.620 --> 06:06.240]  If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place.
[06:06.240 --> 06:09.060]  And, God, I hope a sex tape of Hib number shows up online.
[06:09.980 --> 06:11.060]  Oh, but it will.
[06:11.060 --> 06:11.500]  Yeah.
[06:11.720 --> 06:15.740]  So, that's the guy who is the executive chairman at Google, former CEO.
[06:16.220 --> 06:23.700]  And Vic Gundotra, who I won't get into this, was the guy who was in charge of Google Plus, responsible for the names policy, who was...
[06:23.700 --> 06:26.640]  Let's just say he and Google parted ways about a month ago.
[06:27.080 --> 06:32.180]  So, the next thing I want to just look at is King Zuck, as some people like to call him.
[06:34.500 --> 06:35.640]  Quick quote from him.
[06:35.640 --> 06:40.120]  And this was actually directly right after... this was in response to Nemours, I think.
[06:40.300 --> 06:47.140]  The days of you having a different image for your work friends or your co-workers and for the other people you know are probably coming to an end pretty quickly.
[06:47.580 --> 06:50.720]  Having two identities for yourself is an example of a lack of integrity.
[06:50.920 --> 06:53.920]  And I just want people to reflect on Zuckerberg telling us what integrity means.
[06:54.600 --> 07:01.740]  And by the way, it's worth noting that a couple of years later, somebody showed up at his house with a video camera and started following him everywhere, and he told them to f*ck off.
[07:01.940 --> 07:04.360]  Which makes you ask a couple questions about Zuckerberg.
[07:04.740 --> 07:09.380]  That was actually Terms and Conditions May Apply, which I highly recommend if you haven't seen it.
[07:09.520 --> 07:10.440]  So, we'll keep going.
[07:10.700 --> 07:11.940]  Okay, so keep going.
[07:12.200 --> 07:14.860]  So, I often, when we come to this...
[07:14.860 --> 07:22.400]  And by the way, when we say nym, nym is usually considered short for pseudonym, but you can actually delineate it into a lot of different types of nyms or names and whatnot.
[07:23.040 --> 07:29.660]  That might be a little bit out of scope for this talk, but just keep in mind that's kind of what we're getting at, is like people asking questions about names and identity.
[07:29.660 --> 07:35.460]  So, this is one of my favorite examples of a pseudonym issue or a name issue.
[07:36.400 --> 07:37.860]  And there's all kinds of others.
[07:38.020 --> 07:40.320]  Publius from the Federalist Papers comes up a lot.
[07:40.440 --> 07:44.800]  Those, the letters that were sent to get the Constitution ratified and so on.
[07:45.340 --> 07:47.180]  How many people here have heard of Frank Zappa?
[07:49.360 --> 07:51.440]  How many know the names of his two kids?
[07:52.980 --> 07:53.360]  Moon Unit.
[07:53.360 --> 07:54.240]  Moon Unit and Dweezil.
[07:55.680 --> 07:56.040]  So...
[07:56.040 --> 07:56.180]  Three kids.
[07:56.420 --> 07:56.780]  What's that?
[07:57.040 --> 07:57.560]  Three kids.
[07:57.700 --> 07:57.900]  Oh, yeah.
[07:57.960 --> 07:58.320]  Three kids.
[07:58.400 --> 08:00.020]  Well, the two ones that I care about right now.
[08:00.100 --> 08:01.400]  I can't remember the other one's name.
[08:02.060 --> 08:02.420]  Yeah.
[08:03.500 --> 08:04.120]  So, okay.
[08:04.260 --> 08:04.880]  So, yeah.
[08:05.460 --> 08:07.260]  The third one rode the short bus to school.
[08:07.380 --> 08:07.680]  I don't know.
[08:07.880 --> 08:08.640]  So, all right.
[08:10.440 --> 08:16.280]  So, this is a funny story because normally when you hear what's your real name, it's the name your parents gave you, right?
[08:16.480 --> 08:17.640]  Usually in the hospital or something.
[08:17.800 --> 08:18.340]  So, here's a story.
[08:18.460 --> 08:21.240]  Frank Zappa and his wife, and this is on Wikipedia so you can verify it.
[08:24.140 --> 08:24.780]  It's truthy.
[08:24.960 --> 08:25.700]  It's truthy.
[08:25.880 --> 08:26.040]  Yes.
[08:26.780 --> 08:27.420]  It's truthish.
[08:28.100 --> 08:28.420]  Yes.
[08:28.880 --> 08:33.760]  So, Frank Zappa and his wife were at the hospital and they had the baby that they wanted to name Dweezil.
[08:33.900 --> 08:37.860]  So, they went to the nurse and the nurse is like, okay, what name goes on the birth certificate?
[08:38.100 --> 08:38.960]  And they said, Dweezil.
[08:39.260 --> 08:41.200]  And the nurse replied, no, give us a real name.
[08:42.780 --> 08:49.840]  So, Frank sat there and he thought of four names of random musicians he knew, which were Ian, Donald, Calvin, Euclid, Zappa.
[08:50.200 --> 08:52.060]  And that's the name that went on Dweezil's birth certificate.
[08:52.600 --> 08:56.360]  Now, fast forward a couple of years, they're calling him Dweezil all this time.
[08:56.460 --> 08:58.160]  And this kid grows up knowing his name is Dweezil.
[08:58.320 --> 09:00.300]  Then I think he turns five, something like that.
[09:00.460 --> 09:02.700]  He finds out that that's the name on his birth certificate.
[09:02.700 --> 09:05.280]  So, he asks his parents to change his name legally to Dweezil.
[09:06.640 --> 09:08.460]  So, I think just Frank Zappa is awesome.
[09:09.980 --> 09:10.340]  Cool.
[09:10.500 --> 09:10.660]  Okay.
[09:10.880 --> 09:13.520]  So, it's... and these are just some of the things.
[09:13.680 --> 09:17.040]  And if you go to my hope number nine talk, you can see a lot more in depth with the philosophy.
[09:17.180 --> 09:18.740]  And I get into Joseph Campbell and things like that.
[09:19.060 --> 09:19.700]  Lots of fun.
[09:20.800 --> 09:21.160]  What's...
[09:21.160 --> 09:21.380]  Yeah.
[09:21.560 --> 09:24.940]  So, around this time, I ran into Kaliya who...
[09:24.940 --> 09:27.880]  You were running the IIW, the Internet Identity Workshop and stuff.
[09:28.060 --> 09:29.860]  So, I'm going to share a bit about myself.
[09:29.860 --> 09:32.200]  And, of course, I'm a total dork because...
[09:32.200 --> 09:33.020]  Where did...
[09:33.020 --> 09:33.800]  Is it up there?
[09:33.960 --> 09:34.800]  Where did it go?
[09:35.080 --> 09:36.020]  Oh, there it is.
[09:36.920 --> 09:37.400]  Ah.
[09:37.620 --> 09:37.940]  Okay.
[09:38.120 --> 09:39.220]  So, I'm Identity Woman.
[09:39.580 --> 09:43.400]  I'm an independent advocate for the rights and dignity of our digital selves.
[09:43.500 --> 09:46.540]  And I've had the tagline, saving the world with user-centric identity.
[09:46.900 --> 09:50.640]  I've been blogging under this handle for almost ten years now.
[09:51.980 --> 10:00.920]  And I actually, before I got into all of this, I was scheming to build distributed social networks to build social movements for spiritual activists.
[10:01.940 --> 10:06.760]  And I even raised some money and got some people actually develop things to build some for me.
[10:06.940 --> 10:10.120]  And I got into all this through this paper.
[10:10.380 --> 10:12.240]  It was actually published in 2003.
[10:12.240 --> 10:17.720]  And it articulated this vision of user-centric digital identity as a way to change the world.
[10:18.400 --> 10:24.660]  And to put people at the center of their own digital identity lives to enable self-organizing to make the planet better.
[10:25.280 --> 10:27.100]  And I'd highly recommend it.
[10:27.100 --> 10:30.880]  I often sell people I was, like, against Facebook before it ever existed.
[10:32.220 --> 10:33.420]  Just on principle.
[10:33.740 --> 10:41.240]  Like, the paper foresaw commercialization of our identities and said, we need to make sure there's open standards.
[10:41.500 --> 10:45.340]  Like, the protocols are political and they really matter.
[10:45.520 --> 10:50.380]  And this is a book I found just after it was published as well that gets into this.
[10:51.860 --> 10:56.260]  In 2005, with other folks, I founded the Internet Identity Workshop.
[10:56.260 --> 11:00.560]  And unlike this conference that's every two years, our conference is twice a year.
[11:00.800 --> 11:06.620]  So our 19th and 20th one are next coming up.
[11:06.780 --> 11:07.120]  Yes?
[11:07.400 --> 11:08.880]  That's the best logo ever.
[11:09.240 --> 11:10.140]  Thank you.
[11:10.580 --> 11:12.680]  The question is, that's the best logo ever.
[11:12.680 --> 11:13.180]  The question?
[11:13.340 --> 11:13.620]  Yes.
[11:14.460 --> 11:14.780]  Yes.
[11:15.140 --> 11:15.480]  Yes.
[11:15.900 --> 11:16.420]  Yes.
[11:17.520 --> 11:22.220]  They're in Silicon Valley at the Computer History Museum.
[11:22.380 --> 11:25.700]  Sometimes I like to say we make history at the Computer History Museum.
[11:25.700 --> 11:27.140]  It's an unconference.
[11:27.440 --> 11:33.460]  And I'm going to jam through these because a lot of stuff happens at unconferences.
[11:33.760 --> 11:37.560]  Like, all these different orgs form and different protocols.
[11:37.620 --> 11:43.540]  And they, like, connect and then they disconnect and they form new things.
[11:43.560 --> 11:49.520]  And there's all this stuff, which I could talk to you at length about if you want to know about the history of all these different protocols.
[11:49.520 --> 11:55.520]  But we get to the present here and we're going to get into this end stick plenary and some of the stuff.
[11:55.660 --> 11:57.760]  And here's some, like, protocol family trees.
[11:57.760 --> 11:58.840]  These are really fun.
[11:58.980 --> 11:59.740]  We should do more of them.
[11:59.880 --> 12:01.560]  Like, where did that stuff come through?
[12:01.620 --> 12:04.960]  And which protocols mated with which ones to form, like, the next thing?
[12:05.120 --> 12:06.800]  And, like, what standards bodies did they go do?
[12:07.380 --> 12:08.380]  That's, again, another talk.
[12:08.500 --> 12:12.840]  We have tons of different folks who come from a huge range of places.
[12:12.840 --> 12:16.880]  And because nobody sets the agenda except the people who come, it's pretty cool.
[12:17.060 --> 12:18.060]  And there's lots of standards.
[12:18.660 --> 12:20.960]  I've been running the personal data ecosystem consortium.
[12:21.780 --> 12:23.080]  Like, I didn't do enough stuff.
[12:23.280 --> 12:28.340]  But networking companies that are doing personal data stores, tools, and services.
[12:29.000 --> 12:31.500]  The World Economic Forum thinks this is cool.
[12:31.660 --> 12:32.880]  And they're sort of on our side.
[12:33.000 --> 12:35.940]  They're like, there's all this data and people should have it.
[12:36.360 --> 12:37.820]  And people should have it.
[12:39.320 --> 12:40.140]  Lots of it.
[12:40.300 --> 12:41.780]  I helped make this thing, too.
[12:41.780 --> 12:44.580]  And things get creepier as you go up and to the right.
[12:44.800 --> 12:47.080]  You know, a different kind of, like...
[12:47.080 --> 12:53.980]  If you start linking inferred data that's directly linked to individuals, that's where we start to have the problems that we're talking about here.
[12:54.940 --> 13:03.040]  And we think we can solve this if we build commercial infrastructure and tools for people to collect and manage and get their own data.
[13:03.760 --> 13:06.680]  Which sort of segues is, like, where nStick might go?
[13:07.340 --> 13:08.100]  I don't know.
[13:08.100 --> 13:14.600]  I am running a company in the space now, instead of just running the community, called the Leola Group.
[13:15.040 --> 13:17.920]  And now we get to where we met.
[13:18.160 --> 13:19.240]  We met at nStick.
[13:19.660 --> 13:23.100]  I asked this to be in an impact font like the Nazis used, but...
[13:23.780 --> 13:25.100]  Okay, so...
[13:25.840 --> 13:26.760]  I like the nStick people.
[13:26.760 --> 13:28.360]  Maybe I couldn't have said that on a live stream.
[13:29.300 --> 13:32.760]  So, you know, we have different perspectives, but that's okay.
[13:34.260 --> 13:37.420]  So, I'll zoom through this, too, because we're trying to...
[13:38.420 --> 13:39.540]  You're really smart.
[13:39.740 --> 13:41.200]  Like, yesterday, I was sitting in the crowd.
[13:41.200 --> 13:44.600]  I was like, I'm so excited I get to talk to a smart audience.
[13:44.600 --> 13:46.900]  We can jam through stuff, and it'll land.
[13:47.000 --> 13:48.500]  And I don't have to explain everything.
[13:48.900 --> 13:49.140]  Okay.
[13:49.340 --> 13:51.660]  So, Obama comes into office, right?
[13:51.780 --> 13:54.220]  And he's a good president, some version of good.
[13:54.220 --> 13:57.160]  He does some, like, reviews, like, what should we focus on?
[13:57.260 --> 14:00.200]  And so, they do a cyberspace policy review.
[14:00.440 --> 14:13.780]  And their near-term action plan, point number 10, build a cybersecurity-based identity management vision and strategy that addresses privacy, civil liberties, interests, leveraging privacy, enhancing technologies for the nation.
[14:14.120 --> 14:16.440]  This is like motherhood and apple pie, and he's basically...
[14:16.740 --> 14:21.440]  You know, this almost is what some famous people said this morning.
[14:21.440 --> 14:26.940]  Like, cool, like, let's make it happen and have a multi-stakeholder process to do it in.
[14:27.100 --> 14:35.640]  So, implement for high-value activities, opt-in, array of interoperable identity management systems for building trust online and transactions to enhance privacy.
[14:36.960 --> 14:41.740]  So, then, they wrote another document, as all good governments do when they want to do something.
[14:41.740 --> 14:45.120]  So, it took, you know, two years, but they got it out.
[14:45.120 --> 14:55.120]  And they actually started showing up in the IIW community before that, saying, like, we can't invent it by ourselves in the silo that is government.
[14:55.120 --> 14:58.440]  We need to work with industry and work with the communities.
[14:58.440 --> 15:01.940]  Like, all those protocols that you talk about, we need to use those.
[15:02.300 --> 15:04.020]  Because we can't invent it.
[15:04.680 --> 15:07.980]  And they called for these four guiding principles.
[15:08.460 --> 15:12.660]  They repeat them all the time, like, as if repeating them would make them true just by itself.
[15:13.540 --> 15:14.380]  But it's great.
[15:14.660 --> 15:18.980]  And so, where is NSDIC in the sort of, where are we?
[15:19.820 --> 15:22.600]  So, there's this layer.
[15:22.860 --> 15:27.720]  A lot of attention at this conference is focused on all of this creepy NSA and others spying.
[15:27.900 --> 15:28.700]  It's really bad.
[15:28.700 --> 15:29.840]  It's breaking the law.
[15:30.200 --> 15:33.900]  It's breaking the rules that we set for what Lawful Intercept is.
[15:34.040 --> 15:38.260]  And we can also have a whole set of conversations about what those rules should be in our society.
[15:38.260 --> 15:44.740]  And NSDIC is in this really big, yet incredibly boring, yellow box.
[15:44.900 --> 15:45.920]  Really, really boring.
[15:46.140 --> 15:51.400]  This is where the normative rules in business practices and technologies for everyday life live.
[15:52.460 --> 15:54.840]  And it's really boring.
[15:55.800 --> 15:58.040]  But it's sort of really important, too.
[15:58.440 --> 16:01.820]  It's like, that below the board, like, fight, please.
[16:01.820 --> 16:09.400]  And can we also think about where the mainstream default technology world is going in the next one year?
[16:09.560 --> 16:10.780]  Five years and ten years?
[16:11.100 --> 16:14.880]  And a hundred years of the mainstream above-board stuff that everybody needs?
[16:16.200 --> 16:17.720]  That's where NSDIC is.
[16:18.260 --> 16:25.960]  And so, I was writing a letter to some activists after some stuff that I'll explain later in this talk happened.
[16:26.320 --> 16:29.800]  And I said this about what they're doing.
[16:30.240 --> 16:37.660]  They're going to define how people can define their own names, gender identity, race, and other identifying information online.
[16:38.080 --> 16:41.440]  Will we retain the right to use nicknames and pseudonyms?
[16:41.700 --> 16:45.700]  And will we be allowed to speak anonymously online?
[16:45.700 --> 17:03.000]  And the document itself says many times that it wants to support verified identities for some things and is very clear that, in the process, anonymous speech and pseudonymous speech must be protected.
[17:03.360 --> 17:14.400]  And so, it's this piece of it that there are almost zero advocates in the process who know anything about the technologies showing up in the room.
[17:14.400 --> 17:17.220]  And so, only the verified ID people are there.
[17:17.460 --> 17:19.500]  And it's really lonely for me in aestetix.
[17:20.120 --> 17:21.760]  So, we want you to join the party.
[17:21.940 --> 17:25.280]  And if you're like, oh, it's just a horrible, horrible process.
[17:25.280 --> 17:26.540]  And it kind of is.
[17:26.720 --> 17:28.420]  These slides are so scary looking.
[17:29.000 --> 17:29.440]  Yeah.
[17:31.920 --> 17:32.840]  They figure...
[17:32.840 --> 17:38.520]  So, the White House, it says today, but this was from probably a few months ago.
[17:38.880 --> 17:43.340]  And this was like the leader of the NPO, the National Program Office, sent this to all of us.
[17:43.340 --> 17:47.560]  Is that it's in the roadmap for their cybersecurity stuff.
[17:47.700 --> 17:50.440]  They are going to follow the recommendations of this institution.
[17:50.820 --> 17:57.820]  And those of us who care about pseudonymity and anonymity could make sure those recommendations are strong in this realm.
[17:58.040 --> 18:02.020]  So that what's in that big yellow box is actually okay.
[18:03.920 --> 18:05.380]  So, this is more from that.
[18:05.620 --> 18:11.640]  So, this goes into why the big idea behind nStick is not actually dumb.
[18:12.060 --> 18:17.800]  So, usernames and passwords, and particularly the password part, is completely broken.
[18:18.880 --> 18:20.120]  It's just not working.
[18:20.120 --> 18:23.280]  How many of you think passwords are working?
[18:26.140 --> 18:26.660]  Yeah.
[18:27.540 --> 18:29.160]  I think we spotted a third.
[18:29.720 --> 18:30.840]  Yeah, exactly.
[18:31.640 --> 18:32.840]  They're just not.
[18:33.040 --> 18:33.260]  Okay.
[18:33.460 --> 18:34.760]  So, we can agree on that.
[18:34.900 --> 18:41.480]  And that one way out of this is potentially multi-factor authentication that's usable.
[18:42.580 --> 18:46.740]  And the document's like, we need multi-factor authentication that's usable.
[18:47.140 --> 18:47.620]  Yes.
[18:47.860 --> 18:48.100]  Okay.
[18:49.360 --> 18:54.600]  And authentication, as we all know, is not enrollment, how you get in a system, or identity verification.
[18:54.640 --> 18:56.740]  And they often get confused, but they're not.
[18:57.280 --> 19:00.580]  You need strong multi-factor authentication for your pseudonyms too.
[19:00.900 --> 19:03.300]  I try and explain this to people in the institution.
[19:03.300 --> 19:12.600]  They're finally getting it after I've been there for three years and saying, okay, so I'm transgender and I have my transgender online identity as a use case.
[19:12.600 --> 19:15.820]  And how do I have strong multi-factor authentication for it?
[19:15.880 --> 19:20.540]  And they're like, uh, well, you're going to use your...
[19:20.540 --> 19:26.580]  Because they've merged the idea of verification and authentication of ID together in their minds.
[19:27.160 --> 19:28.520]  And it's frustrating.
[19:28.520 --> 19:29.600]  But we're getting somewhere.
[19:29.600 --> 19:37.460]  The other piece of the idea that's not dumb is the fact there's a hell of a lot of government agencies.
[19:37.680 --> 19:44.800]  And many of them have, as their function, interacting with us as citizens walking around in everyday life doing normal things.
[19:46.720 --> 19:49.900]  The Department of Agriculture gives loans to farmers.
[19:50.460 --> 19:51.940]  They give loans to students.
[19:52.540 --> 19:54.040]  The Department of Education.
[19:54.640 --> 19:57.560]  There's a whole bunch of functions we've constructed for our states.
[19:57.560 --> 19:59.740]  We could...yes, it's socially constructed.
[20:00.100 --> 20:01.160]  And we invented it.
[20:01.300 --> 20:02.960]  But it is real for some version of real.
[20:03.800 --> 20:05.640]  There are 50 states.
[20:06.100 --> 20:10.360]  There are 31,000 plus counties.
[20:10.680 --> 20:15.060]  And there are 20,000 incorporated entities, a la cities, etc.
[20:15.680 --> 20:18.480]  There's just a lot of these things around.
[20:18.620 --> 20:23.720]  And lots of them ask you to do stuff with a verified ID of some type.
[20:24.080 --> 20:25.960]  And many businesses do as well.
[20:25.960 --> 20:31.540]  So, one answer to this problem is to issue every time you need to do a verified thing.
[20:31.780 --> 20:32.860]  You go to the agency.
[20:32.860 --> 20:33.760]  You say, get me.
[20:33.900 --> 20:36.100]  I'm going to verify myself with you.
[20:36.300 --> 20:37.460]  Give me a token.
[20:38.820 --> 20:39.880]  And you do that.
[20:39.880 --> 20:42.800]  And you get a new little dongle for every agency.
[20:43.040 --> 20:45.700]  You know, your multi-factor authentication token.
[20:45.960 --> 20:47.680]  Plus your verification with it.
[20:48.820 --> 20:49.400]  Okay.
[20:50.320 --> 20:51.640]  Just imagine this.
[20:52.060 --> 20:52.820]  Like, this is...
[20:52.820 --> 20:58.820]  So, this costs minimally between $12 and $120 per person per year per ID to manage.
[20:59.240 --> 21:02.440]  Now, let's just do the math with just the federal government.
[21:02.440 --> 21:03.880]  It's not going to work here.
[21:04.260 --> 21:05.120]  Just not.
[21:05.320 --> 21:06.620]  We don't have enough money.
[21:06.620 --> 21:07.380]  Okay.
[21:07.580 --> 21:08.280]  The other solution?
[21:08.980 --> 21:11.700]  The government issues you an ID.
[21:12.040 --> 21:13.120]  And you can use it everywhere.
[21:13.520 --> 21:15.540]  That would look like a national ID.
[21:15.900 --> 21:17.620]  That's not going to work here either politically.
[21:17.840 --> 21:22.880]  It happens to work really good in countries with about 10 million or less people that are homogenous.
[21:23.200 --> 21:24.280]  But that's not us.
[21:26.120 --> 21:39.180]  So, there's another thing that they observed, being fabulous, creative Americans, since neither of the two obvious solutions would work, is that people go and do stuff in the private sector all the time.
[21:39.280 --> 21:41.780]  And the private sector has invented ways to do this.
[21:42.000 --> 21:44.280]  Verify people's ID to do transactions with them.
[21:44.660 --> 22:00.380]  Maybe, maybe, you could take your verified ID that you got from your bank and the once a year, you want to go look up your tax records at the IRS, they could give you some proof of that and let you go over to the IRS and get the thing you want to get and you come back.
[22:01.860 --> 22:06.620]  There's these commercial institutions who are doing many of the things that are needed for this.
[22:08.420 --> 22:09.660]  It goes the other way, too.
[22:09.880 --> 22:25.460]  With HSPD-12, all 12 million government contractors and government employees have strong credentials, which they cannot use in the private sector for multi-factor authentication or proof of ID online, because we haven't figured it out.
[22:25.900 --> 22:29.260]  So, you put it together, right?
[22:29.840 --> 22:30.600]  It looks okay.
[22:30.860 --> 22:34.780]  Like, this could work if we figured out interoperability, some open standards, etc.
[22:35.420 --> 22:42.840]  And then, just a ton of liability and trust issues and technical issues.
[22:42.840 --> 22:44.600]  But it's, in theory, possible.
[22:45.020 --> 22:47.160]  So, they said, let's have NSTIC happen.
[22:47.340 --> 22:49.800]  Let's get multiple stakeholders in the room.
[22:50.080 --> 22:53.520]  Get industry, civil society, and government folks.
[22:54.080 --> 23:00.900]  And we'll figure out how to get through this with some press frameworks and it'll all be motherhood and apple pie and we can, ta-da, do it.
[23:01.020 --> 23:02.080]  So, that was the vision.
[23:02.260 --> 23:02.900]  It's not dumb.
[23:04.080 --> 23:05.140]  Do you have some comments?
[23:06.880 --> 23:07.940]  We're going to keep going.
[23:08.220 --> 23:13.180]  Do you want me to give the story of how I got involved in everything and what I ran into?
[23:13.820 --> 23:15.260]  We have a slide for that.
[23:15.400 --> 23:15.720]  Oh, we do.
[23:15.860 --> 23:16.280]  Okay, cool.
[23:18.420 --> 23:21.060]  So, Jessica, I have all...
[23:21.060 --> 23:22.460]  We'll be covering...
[23:22.460 --> 23:26.240]  Because some of these words that are coming, like trust, that word actually scares me a lot.
[23:26.280 --> 23:27.540]  And it's a really, really loaded word.
[23:27.640 --> 23:29.680]  And we'll get into why and some future slides.
[23:29.920 --> 23:33.260]  But yeah, I'm looking at this with uneasiness as...
[23:33.260 --> 23:38.660]  I'm not quite a libertarian, but I like to tell the government to go f*ck itself when I can, so...
[23:38.660 --> 23:39.000]  Yeah.
[23:39.360 --> 23:39.640]  Okay.
[23:39.640 --> 23:43.040]  So, they call for the private sector to leave the advert.
[23:43.320 --> 23:45.160]  And the federal government will provide support.
[23:45.340 --> 23:46.420]  So, we'll get into what happened.
[23:47.460 --> 23:52.860]  They announced the program office and the man to lead it, Jeremy.
[23:53.180 --> 23:53.960]  He's fabulous.
[23:54.960 --> 24:03.600]  And, of course, right after this, they get all these posts, like government proposing online driver's license ID, which is not what they were doing.
[24:04.900 --> 24:06.260]  So, I save their butt.
[24:06.480 --> 24:08.620]  I write this piece on my Fast Company blog.
[24:08.960 --> 24:12.480]  It's called National Identity Cyberspace, Why We Shouldn't Freak Out About NSTiC.
[24:12.560 --> 24:15.860]  I talk about some of the cool, legitimate, interesting use cases.
[24:16.700 --> 24:23.460]  And, basically, get the sort of, we should freak out people to chill out enough that it goes ahead.
[24:23.640 --> 24:25.460]  They hire some fabulous staff.
[24:25.460 --> 24:26.700]  They're all really cool.
[24:28.760 --> 24:30.680]  David Tomaschuk worked on the governance.
[24:31.020 --> 24:32.800]  And, James Shire was the community manager.
[24:33.140 --> 24:34.680]  Mike Garcia does many things.
[24:34.840 --> 24:37.580]  And, Naomi Lefkowitz, many of you may have heard of, she does privacy.
[24:38.960 --> 24:47.100]  So, they put out this notice of inquiry and they said, gee, we're going to put this new org together to solve all these problems.
[24:47.300 --> 24:48.580]  How should we govern it?
[24:49.100 --> 24:56.280]  And, I, along with other people, put in lots of thoughtful recommendations about how to do it in an inclusive way.
[24:57.280 --> 25:02.200]  More press was written by friendly folks saying, like, it's not a national ID.
[25:02.200 --> 25:10.180]  This is by Aaron Titus, who's a privacy lawyer, or, I don't know if, are people privacy lawyers?
[25:10.360 --> 25:11.340]  But, that's another question.
[25:11.960 --> 25:13.980]  They put on some workshops.
[25:15.560 --> 25:20.840]  You had O'Reilly Rader saying this was the Manhattan Project for Online Identity.
[25:21.480 --> 25:28.520]  Then, the NPO decided to write a charter of the organization, define the bylaws, and decide which committees should exist.
[25:31.140 --> 25:34.380]  And, an entire complete two-year work plan.
[25:35.440 --> 25:39.760]  And, a lot of us in the private sector were like, I thought you wanted us to lead it.
[25:40.280 --> 25:43.000]  Like, why did you just build a two-year work plan?
[25:43.200 --> 25:48.300]  But, apparently, in government, they have trouble letting go of control to the private sector, even though they say they want it.
[25:49.480 --> 25:51.680]  So, this is the structure that they built.
[25:51.980 --> 25:57.680]  And then, aestetix is going to tell you about our attempts to have some of the nym issues included within this structure.
[25:57.680 --> 25:58.840]  It'll be story time.
[26:00.020 --> 26:01.740]  And, we have the...
[26:02.460 --> 26:05.780]  Oh, first, they hired a company to run things.
[26:05.880 --> 26:08.680]  Which is a good idea if you're going to have private sector volunteers come.
[26:08.980 --> 26:13.820]  You need somebody to, like, set up the phone bridges, make the wiki work, etc.
[26:15.000 --> 26:17.500]  Except, yeah, that was another challenge.
[26:17.500 --> 26:19.160]  But, they hired this company.
[26:22.000 --> 26:24.020]  They defined there would be a plenary.
[26:24.280 --> 26:26.000]  Literally, anybody in the whole world can join.
[26:26.180 --> 26:27.400]  You can join today, too.
[26:29.080 --> 26:31.560]  They asked us all to pick a stakeholder category.
[26:33.320 --> 26:39.240]  And then, they elected a management council, one for each stakeholder category.
[26:40.820 --> 26:42.080]  And that's me.
[26:42.360 --> 26:45.540]  I was one of those management council folks, and I still am.
[26:46.720 --> 26:50.220]  I represent small businesses and entrepreneurs currently.
[26:50.820 --> 26:56.180]  They elected a vice chair and a chair of the management council.
[26:56.780 --> 27:00.080]  Along with a chair and vice chair of the plenary.
[27:00.080 --> 27:02.220]  So, it sounds sort of okay.
[27:03.140 --> 27:06.260]  Except then, they decided to do something else.
[27:06.560 --> 27:10.400]  Which, instead of, like, the logical thing would be, like, have the management council meet.
[27:10.540 --> 27:12.100]  And decide more stuff.
[27:12.640 --> 27:14.120]  Like, this is a good starter point.
[27:14.920 --> 27:17.680]  They predefined all the committees that would exist.
[27:18.140 --> 27:21.760]  Including chopping everybody up into the existing sort of problem child.
[27:21.940 --> 27:23.780]  Like, we're going to stick the privacy people in the corner.
[27:24.060 --> 27:25.720]  And the security people over there.
[27:26.300 --> 27:28.100]  And the business people over there.
[27:28.100 --> 27:29.620]  And then we're going to...
[27:29.620 --> 27:33.060]  Like, why divide everybody up in the ways they're already divided.
[27:33.060 --> 27:34.560]  Making this problem hard to solve.
[27:35.740 --> 27:39.020]  And they elected chairs of these committees.
[27:40.820 --> 27:43.440]  And so now we have a chair's council as well.
[27:43.600 --> 27:46.420]  And this is where we bring in the nym issues.
[27:46.660 --> 27:53.880]  Because the charter says, any member of the plenary can bring forward a committee to decide how to do things.
[27:55.080 --> 27:56.920]  Oh, is this where I get to fill my funnel?
[27:56.920 --> 27:57.600]  Yeah, see, look.
[27:57.700 --> 27:58.720]  You're the nym issues.
[27:58.800 --> 27:59.480]  The nym issues.
[27:59.660 --> 27:59.720]  Yeah.
[27:59.880 --> 28:01.420]  The big glaring red mark on there.
[28:01.780 --> 28:02.000]  Yeah.
[28:02.340 --> 28:06.240]  So it was around this time, I guess I was starting to talk to CLIA or something like that.
[28:06.420 --> 28:07.660]  And I started looking at this thing.
[28:07.780 --> 28:09.320]  And I was like, well, it's really interesting.
[28:09.500 --> 28:11.480]  They don't really seem to address this nym stuff.
[28:12.300 --> 28:16.060]  So I wound up flying down, I think it was in February 2003.
[28:16.980 --> 28:22.760]  I flew down to IDESG, an in-person plenary in Phoenix, Arizona.
[28:23.020 --> 28:30.840]  And we had a four-hour long discussion with the privacy committee, which was kind of interesting because they brought up, like, okay, I'll be blunt.
[28:30.940 --> 28:35.900]  With nyms, within five minutes of discussion with somebody who doesn't like nyms, pedophiles come up.
[28:35.900 --> 28:37.660]  And it did come up here.
[28:37.860 --> 28:38.600]  And it just like...
[28:38.600 --> 28:39.520]  I don't know why.
[28:39.640 --> 28:41.980]  It's like this gold standard of IDESG regarding that stuff.
[28:42.580 --> 28:42.940]  So...
[28:43.380 --> 28:44.620]  It's the modern Godwin.
[28:44.840 --> 28:46.040]  The modern Godwin?
[28:46.200 --> 28:46.420]  Okay.
[28:47.020 --> 28:47.420]  So...
[28:47.420 --> 28:55.480]  And by the way, I do want to point out, even though some of the stuff I say may seem abrasive, I think IDESG, everyone involved with it, are super nice people.
[28:55.520 --> 28:57.740]  And I do believe they are all acting in good faith.
[28:58.080 --> 29:04.240]  And I think there's a lot of translation issues going on, which is one of the reasons we've gotten involved in trying to deal with vocabulary and teaching and taxonomy.
[29:05.080 --> 29:05.800]  That said...
[29:05.800 --> 29:08.920]  Which was the point of me going to the plenary in Phoenix.
[29:09.440 --> 29:11.140]  And I think all of us learned a lot.
[29:11.580 --> 29:12.400]  And what happened...
[29:12.400 --> 29:16.000]  So what happened was, I saw all of these different work groups that were defined.
[29:16.200 --> 29:18.160]  Like, there's healthcare and standards and all this.
[29:18.300 --> 29:24.120]  And it's like, ah, well, there's not anything for these nym issues that, you know, I've been researching, you know, on my own basically independently.
[29:24.500 --> 29:29.100]  So I drafted up effectively a charter that looked kind of like what they had.
[29:29.300 --> 29:30.020]  Sent it in.
[29:30.140 --> 29:32.940]  Because it seemed like, well, if you want to create a charter, just submit it.
[29:32.940 --> 29:36.080]  Just like, you know, creating a subcommittee for government processes, things like that.
[29:36.540 --> 29:40.140]  And that got really interesting really fast.
[29:40.560 --> 29:46.120]  The first thing they tried to do was create a subcommittee of the privacy committee for that.
[29:46.340 --> 29:52.480]  And that seems logical when you start out thinking about it because, oh, you know, it's a privacy issue.
[29:52.560 --> 29:55.340]  Except that it's much more than just privacy.
[29:55.340 --> 29:59.920]  Like, you're talking about identity in general.
[30:00.120 --> 30:01.700]  And privacy implies...
[30:01.700 --> 30:05.600]  When you're talking about privacy, first off, you have something in it.
[30:05.740 --> 30:06.680]  Privacy is a relationship.
[30:06.860 --> 30:09.740]  And you're keeping something private from some entity.
[30:10.100 --> 30:16.220]  And I think that names are much broader and much more prismatic than that.
[30:16.220 --> 30:18.520]  And that's one of the points we were trying to convey.
[30:18.920 --> 30:20.540]  And I think we really succeeded.
[30:20.780 --> 30:28.180]  And in that four-hour discussion, the conclusion ultimately was, okay, we know that this is an issue that actually needs to be addressed.
[30:28.540 --> 30:30.200]  What the f*ck do we do about it now?
[30:30.420 --> 30:32.820]  And that's kind of where we got to.
[30:32.920 --> 30:34.140]  I mean, is that a decent summary, do you think?
[30:34.140 --> 30:36.480]  Yeah, I mean, it's sort of in left in limbo.
[30:36.840 --> 30:54.960]  So all of the committees proposed by plenary members that weren't in the predefined list have basically managed to go nowhere, which to me is a bad sign if you're going to create an open process and then, like, let nothing that sort of shows up within the open process happen.
[30:56.480 --> 30:58.700]  And we'll go through it a little...
[30:58.700 --> 31:02.860]  We'll get to it soon, but there's also this issue of, like, the policies.
[31:02.860 --> 31:05.620]  Like, when should you be required to have names?
[31:05.800 --> 31:08.400]  And names are different than privacy in a fundamental way.
[31:08.640 --> 31:10.740]  Oh, by the way, two other things I want to add to this.
[31:10.880 --> 31:14.800]  And I think they're highly relevant to understanding the intricacies of these processes.
[31:15.340 --> 31:17.920]  The first is that I walked into this fairly naive.
[31:18.220 --> 31:18.880]  You know, still am.
[31:18.960 --> 31:27.120]  There's people who do this, like, 40 hours a week or more, and I do it, like, one hour a month if I can, which is plenty for...
[31:27.600 --> 31:30.080]  It's kind of thick legalese, and I'm not a lawyer.
[31:31.800 --> 31:32.440]  That said...
[31:35.570 --> 31:37.090]  There was some point I was trying to make.
[31:37.170 --> 31:37.470]  I forgot.
[31:37.730 --> 31:38.150]  It's okay.
[31:38.310 --> 31:39.370]  It's after midnight.
[31:39.670 --> 31:40.750]  Yeah, I haven't...
[31:40.750 --> 31:42.170]  Oh, there was some really important point, too.
[31:42.170 --> 31:44.870]  For all of you watching online later, it's almost one in the morning.
[31:45.070 --> 31:45.510]  Oh, right, right, right.
[31:45.610 --> 31:46.970]  Okay, thank you for reminding me.
[31:47.590 --> 31:57.170]  All right, so they have all these work groups and all these committees and subcommittees that are like, ah, well, the way that I understand a society to grow, when a need for something comes up, somebody gets up and does it.
[31:57.170 --> 32:00.210]  You know, that's how, like, a town naturally comes along.
[32:00.370 --> 32:00.750]  You have...
[32:00.750 --> 32:04.110]  We need farmers, so people start doing farming, and so on and so forth.
[32:04.590 --> 32:05.510]  It turned out...
[32:05.510 --> 32:13.630]  I didn't realize it when it turned out that all these work groups had been established by the government to begin with, which didn't really make much sense to me.
[32:13.630 --> 32:19.630]  If you're trying to reach out to the public to create something, you'd probably want to get input from the public, aka me, on...
[32:20.250 --> 32:21.210]  See, here's the thing.
[32:21.290 --> 32:23.430]  I submitted this work group to the thing to create a work group.
[32:23.610 --> 32:26.630]  Turned out they didn't actually have a process for creating one, which...
[32:26.630 --> 32:27.690]  That was really interesting.
[32:27.890 --> 32:28.630]  It was interesting.
[32:29.030 --> 32:31.210]  So anyways, we tried.
[32:31.990 --> 32:37.890]  I mean, I was very supportive of your effort, and it's been a challenge.
[32:38.070 --> 32:40.230]  So bonus, there's even more committees.
[32:40.430 --> 32:43.270]  There's management council subcommittees, which I won't even get into.
[32:43.270 --> 32:50.630]  So they decided when they... after the first meeting, they would create 30 plus mailing lists for all these groups.
[32:51.330 --> 32:53.090]  There's like only 300 people.
[32:53.230 --> 33:01.010]  And all of you who are like geeks know that when you start a project, the first thing you do is put everybody on one mailing list and fork as needed.
[33:01.810 --> 33:04.370]  And instead, they just divided all the energy.
[33:04.490 --> 33:07.750]  And as soon as I saw them do this, I was like, wait, time out.
[33:07.910 --> 33:08.470]  What are you doing?
[33:08.830 --> 33:10.370]  And they're like, no, but we need...
[33:10.370 --> 33:11.530]  I'm like, no, you're...
[33:11.530 --> 33:12.790]  There was no wiki.
[33:12.790 --> 33:18.670]  There was a document repository from like some weird enterprise thing and a Drupal site.
[33:19.530 --> 33:23.970]  And no clear vision from the management council about what we were actually supposed to do.
[33:24.890 --> 33:26.330]  But, you know, that's okay.
[33:26.470 --> 33:27.070]  We'll get there.
[33:27.910 --> 33:28.330]  Bonus.
[33:28.810 --> 33:30.830]  They're not dumb over there in the government.
[33:30.830 --> 33:39.230]  And they decided that just having a bunch of committee meetings might not be the only way to get to an ecosystem, which is their goal, an identity ecosystem, right?
[33:39.430 --> 33:47.970]  So they decided to allocate pilot money to have people make pilots, which is a great idea.
[33:48.510 --> 33:54.730]  They also gave some of the pilots to very defense-oriented contractors.
[33:55.930 --> 34:00.610]  I've highlighted them in black, thick letters.
[34:01.290 --> 34:04.770]  The latest one, which was kind of like, are you serious, guys?
[34:05.030 --> 34:11.830]  The Trans-Global Secure Collaboration Participation Group, which is an air force...
[34:11.830 --> 34:20.790]  an air defense industry consortium, got $2 million to develop trust framework guidance.
[34:21.290 --> 34:22.790]  We'll get to trust frameworks next.
[34:22.950 --> 34:39.310]  But the good thing about that pilot was the little piece that was actually piloting was helping take level four credentials, which is like super crazy high-secure ones, and helping people use them to log into their brokerage account.
[34:43.670 --> 34:47.370]  But, you know, there are also some good pilots there.
[34:47.530 --> 34:51.070]  Privacy Vault Online is cool.
[34:51.230 --> 34:53.950]  They're working on kids' identity stuff and pseudonyms for them.
[34:54.070 --> 34:58.810]  And ID.me is helping veterans prove they're veterans when they go by shopping.
[34:59.350 --> 35:04.890]  Because some stores offer discounts, but you can kind of get it when you go to the store, but how do you get it when you go online?
[35:05.270 --> 35:11.150]  So there's just massive issues in this organization, including diversity.
[35:11.490 --> 35:16.150]  So I go to meetings and they look less diverse than this one, which is saying a lot.
[35:17.310 --> 35:20.350]  And I have been advocating this since the beginning.
[35:20.630 --> 35:25.530]  I gave them this presentation, which I will jam through, at the Boston Plenary.
[35:25.530 --> 35:31.590]  This is ancestry by largest number, with all the rainbow that is America on the right-hand side.
[35:32.230 --> 35:34.410]  Here's like the Latino population.
[35:35.410 --> 35:39.710]  I suggest that they go find some groups that care about racial and ethnic minorities.
[35:40.050 --> 35:43.930]  Sexual minorities, civil liberties groups, and human rights groups.
[35:44.470 --> 35:45.910]  Oh, bonus, religious expression.
[35:45.910 --> 35:52.810]  What's the one groups that have been filing lawsuits against identity systems consistently since they keep getting implemented?
[35:53.410 --> 36:02.650]  Christians, you might want some people with a religious hat like the National Council of Churches showing up being like, well, how would our constituents think about this?
[36:03.650 --> 36:04.110]  Women.
[36:05.050 --> 36:05.510]  Shocking.
[36:07.410 --> 36:09.570]  And disability, folks with disabilities.
[36:09.830 --> 36:15.550]  So I have been saying like, look, if you don't have these folks in the room building this stuff, it's not going to get adopted.
[36:17.930 --> 36:23.030]  So I wrote a, I don't know why my logo likes to pop in and out.
[36:23.150 --> 36:30.870]  I wrote a blog post at the up, the lead up to the Management Council election about this, issues.
[36:31.270 --> 36:41.530]  And I was uninvited by the National Program Office to a conference at the White House, a conference center for Western liberal democracies working on the same set of problems.
[36:42.710 --> 36:45.290]  Because they didn't like that I was talking about it publicly.
[36:47.410 --> 36:51.410]  So I went to a interesting niche news outlet.
[36:51.910 --> 36:54.450]  And they wrote a real story about the real issues.
[36:55.190 --> 36:57.830]  They were really kind of upset with me.
[36:58.230 --> 37:09.270]  But two weeks later, the right wing press or blogosphere decided to write like, Obama, online ID, pilots launching to track you all in the horrible blah.
[37:09.270 --> 37:12.710]  Like, and it kind of went all over the right wing blogosphere.
[37:13.190 --> 37:19.610]  And so my, my, this press piece was mildly critical, yet actually accurate.
[37:19.810 --> 37:22.730]  And they interviewed like, five people from the organization.
[37:23.290 --> 37:25.890]  And we're like, it's kind of a good idea.
[37:26.030 --> 37:28.030]  But like, where's the rainbow that is America?
[37:28.750 --> 37:30.690]  Which was what I was advocating for.
[37:30.690 --> 37:43.450]  So bonus, at the last plenary meeting, they actually had a panel with NAACP, a gentleman from the Association of the Blind and the ACLU, who had been largely absent, but sort of passively tracking the whole thing.
[37:44.890 --> 37:48.510]  And I helped design the plenary finally, because that's one of my areas of expertise.
[37:48.810 --> 37:50.510]  And they are continuing ahead.
[37:51.330 --> 37:53.510]  They had the panel and now it's all okay.
[37:53.510 --> 37:53.590]  Okay.
[37:55.210 --> 37:55.610]  Yes.
[37:57.350 --> 37:58.410]  I know, I know.
[37:58.630 --> 38:01.450]  So there's a list of deliverables and derived requirements.
[38:01.950 --> 38:03.630]  And it wasn't built by the plenary.
[38:03.630 --> 38:06.830]  It was built by the consultants at Deloitte helping the White House.
[38:08.350 --> 38:09.630]  Yes, I know, I know.
[38:09.870 --> 38:10.710]  They're good people.
[38:11.030 --> 38:13.470]  But like, we should have made the list of requirements, right?
[38:13.470 --> 38:21.810]  And they are morphing from this, like, weird supported thing out there into its own 501C36 combo.
[38:22.070 --> 38:23.670]  Like, you had to make it more complicated.
[38:23.930 --> 38:25.590]  And so now we're an independent organization.
[38:27.110 --> 38:27.590]  Yay!
[38:30.430 --> 38:32.910]  And then we have this opportunity to reset.
[38:34.010 --> 38:36.310]  Like, make it less complicated and weird.
[38:36.890 --> 38:40.650]  So I need people to show up and say, make it less complicated and weird.
[38:40.650 --> 38:42.810]  Because this is a good idea.
[38:44.010 --> 38:45.890]  I can fix it later.
[38:52.510 --> 38:56.790]  So the comment from the audience, are you saying make it less complicated and weird?
[38:56.930 --> 38:58.830]  No, it's complicated and weird together.
[38:58.830 --> 39:03.950]  And we could make it simple and good for the American people and the world.
[39:07.030 --> 39:10.450]  But the weird is all the interesting people that are in America.
[39:12.970 --> 39:13.450]  Yeah.
[39:13.830 --> 39:20.590]  So, now you've heard my rant about this org, which you're all probably, like, freaked out about.
[39:20.770 --> 39:24.230]  But, like, this morning we were told we should engage with the protocols.
[39:24.230 --> 39:26.790]  And they're defining the protocols for future identity.
[39:26.790 --> 39:28.610]  And the government's going to follow their direction.
[39:28.750 --> 39:29.550]  Yes, there's a question.
[39:29.550 --> 39:35.510]  I mean, it sort of seems like in order to fix what growth, you have to understand how it growth.
[39:35.810 --> 39:40.270]  So, what is your understanding of how it growth?
[39:40.390 --> 39:43.150]  Do you want to chop it up to malice or stupidity?
[39:43.870 --> 39:55.130]  I'm going to go with naivete and sort of, like, big ideals and overthinking how you would get to that state.
[39:55.130 --> 39:58.270]  And not actually trusting the private sector leadership.
[39:59.450 --> 40:07.190]  So, like, if the private sector leaders, who I respect and overgrade, actually got in a room for three days and said, where should we go over the next two years?
[40:07.690 --> 40:09.330]  We would have led somewhere.
[40:09.590 --> 40:16.910]  But they kept being, like, have a two-hour meeting on the phone for the first 18 months before we ever spent a day together.
[40:16.910 --> 40:20.930]  It's like, do you want us to lead or not?
[40:22.530 --> 40:22.950]  Okay.
[40:23.270 --> 40:24.310]  Well, another question.
[40:29.900 --> 40:31.460]  We are getting to that.
[40:31.820 --> 40:32.000]  And...
[40:33.220 --> 40:37.760]  Well, the point was, maybe I put things in the wrong order.
[40:38.040 --> 40:39.120]  But they were trying.
[40:39.520 --> 40:40.420]  And it's late.
[40:40.660 --> 40:42.000]  So, key concepts.
[40:42.280 --> 40:43.100]  We're going to get to them.
[40:43.380 --> 40:44.180]  Trust, right?
[40:44.280 --> 40:46.400]  The national strategy for trusted identities.
[40:46.600 --> 40:47.020]  What's trust?
[40:47.280 --> 40:48.420]  Oh, this is going to be lots of fun.
[40:48.500 --> 40:50.400]  Oh, by the way, one other thing I wanted to add in.
[40:50.400 --> 40:51.580]  On the IDESG stuff.
[40:52.120 --> 40:56.380]  I was the first person who was admitted as a, quote, unquote, pseudonymous member.
[40:56.860 --> 40:59.620]  And it was really funny at the plenary where we mentioned that.
[40:59.880 --> 41:04.800]  Because they were arguing that we needed to have a process to verify the pseudonymous membership and whatnot.
[41:05.040 --> 41:09.760]  And I'd actually already voted as a pseudonymous member without their knowledge when that happened.
[41:09.920 --> 41:11.280]  So, that was kind of amusing.
[41:11.580 --> 41:12.800]  It's really not that hard.
[41:13.240 --> 41:13.780]  So, yeah.
[41:13.940 --> 41:14.420]  Trust.
[41:14.660 --> 41:15.820]  That word is hard.
[41:16.520 --> 41:17.000]  So...
[41:17.000 --> 41:19.040]  And it's also really loaded.
[41:19.040 --> 41:21.460]  And it's misused.
[41:21.620 --> 41:23.620]  And I think it's actually really misused in this.
[41:23.780 --> 41:26.440]  It's misused in, like, the RSA conference and places like that.
[41:26.460 --> 41:28.180]  Just because it's such a broad word.
[41:28.540 --> 41:30.500]  So, one of the examples I like to use here.
[41:31.880 --> 41:35.040]  Ever seen a parent with their child or a little child with their parent?
[41:35.120 --> 41:36.000]  Like a little tiny kid.
[41:36.180 --> 41:38.280]  They're exploring the world and they're asking all these questions.
[41:38.420 --> 41:39.340]  Why is the sky blue?
[41:39.520 --> 41:39.660]  You know?
[41:41.020 --> 41:41.700]  What is that?
[41:41.800 --> 41:42.360]  Is that a cat?
[41:42.460 --> 41:42.940]  Is that a dog?
[41:43.120 --> 41:44.620]  As you're learning things about the world.
[41:46.360 --> 41:47.940]  And what is it about...
[41:47.940 --> 41:55.040]  There's a relationship and there is a bond between the parent and child that allows them to assume this kind of a mentor apprenticeship or a parent...
[41:55.780 --> 41:56.920]  They're learning from each other.
[41:56.960 --> 42:00.340]  Why does the child inherently trust what it is that their parent tells them?
[42:01.020 --> 42:01.460]  And...
[42:01.460 --> 42:02.120]  What's that?
[42:02.300 --> 42:03.100]  Maybe it's just...
[42:05.190 --> 42:05.630]  Right.
[42:06.630 --> 42:08.090]  You have to repeat what they say.
[42:08.290 --> 42:08.490]  Okay.
[42:08.550 --> 42:09.710]  Maybe it's just data sense.
[42:09.870 --> 42:10.730]  Maybe it's just innocence.
[42:10.810 --> 42:11.850]  Maybe it's just innocence.
[42:12.150 --> 42:12.210]  Right.
[42:12.810 --> 42:13.170]  Right.
[42:13.750 --> 42:14.150]  Right.
[42:14.730 --> 42:16.770]  And trust is a really loaded word.
[42:17.050 --> 42:21.030]  And I mean, there's also the concept of capabilities trust, which I maybe get into later.
[42:21.250 --> 42:22.970]  But it's a really hard word.
[42:22.970 --> 42:25.890]  And also it's really individual and it's really personal to all of us.
[42:26.010 --> 42:30.230]  Like I might trust somebody with money, but I don't trust them with taking care of my cats.
[42:30.410 --> 42:30.730]  Right?
[42:30.910 --> 42:32.810]  So there's all kinds of different types of trust.
[42:32.950 --> 42:36.030]  And it's all based on our relationships with each other and so on.
[42:36.270 --> 42:39.290]  And I guess I can go to the next slide here, which is what is trust?
[42:40.010 --> 42:40.410]  Yeah.
[42:41.490 --> 42:52.270]  So this is something that drives me crazy because the industry people think trust is a verified ID coming from the government with your real name on it and like some other stuff, and it's not.
[42:53.370 --> 42:57.150]  So trusting yourself is a starting point of trust.
[42:58.570 --> 43:01.830]  Trust in relationships, so this is what you were touching on.
[43:02.290 --> 43:05.010]  Organizational trust, like how do we work together in groups.
[43:05.950 --> 43:15.470]  Market trust, so when organizations interact with each other, you create social like confidence in those transactions and build trust over time.
[43:15.730 --> 43:17.290]  There's societal trust.
[43:17.850 --> 43:25.330]  This is like when something goes wrong, you trust that the legal system isn't totally corrupt, and you can sort of have redress.
[43:25.330 --> 43:32.410]  And I put in some bonus, like ecosystems, like the whole planet we're on isn't going to like burn up and fall apart.
[43:33.270 --> 43:35.230]  And bonus, technical trust.
[43:35.450 --> 43:45.590]  So technical trust, like is your crypto good, is totally different than is the person I'm talking on my super secure crypto like a good person or not?
[43:45.830 --> 43:49.830]  Or even will they behave consistently, which is I think a better definition.
[43:49.830 --> 43:54.690]  So they talk about trust frameworks and that this effort is going to build them.
[43:55.210 --> 43:57.870]  Remember that big yellow box, you're like, what's the point?
[43:58.110 --> 44:08.470]  The point is they're defining the big yellow box of like the normative rules and business practices for how we're going to do identity online in the future.
[44:08.790 --> 44:09.610]  What do you mean?
[44:10.470 --> 44:11.030]  We.
[44:11.270 --> 44:11.790]  Government?
[44:11.790 --> 44:11.870]  Government?
[44:11.930 --> 44:12.250]  No.
[44:12.990 --> 44:13.590]  No.
[44:13.850 --> 44:16.510]  It's government talking to its citizens.
[44:16.890 --> 44:18.990]  It's businesses talking to people.
[44:19.470 --> 44:21.930]  It's businesses talking to government.
[44:22.450 --> 44:24.510]  And businesses talking to businesses.
[44:24.750 --> 44:25.950]  It's like comprehensive.
[44:27.490 --> 44:34.630]  They're trying to get a bottom up approach to manifest some protocols and rules.
[44:34.850 --> 44:36.270]  So they call them trust frameworks.
[44:36.610 --> 44:40.790]  And it's really technology and legal policy together.
[44:40.790 --> 44:46.170]  So they're making this sandwich of technology and legal policy.
[44:46.390 --> 44:47.950]  And technology and legal policy.
[44:48.190 --> 44:49.590]  And it's a trust framework.
[44:50.190 --> 44:53.590]  And it sounds so, like, great, you want one.
[44:53.690 --> 44:56.030]  But, like, it really matters what the technologies are.
[44:56.150 --> 44:57.650]  Like, is it good friggin' crypto?
[44:58.650 --> 45:02.170]  Or whatever other standards in the tech space.
[45:02.290 --> 45:05.050]  And what are the legal rules that go with it?
[45:06.330 --> 45:10.630]  And you've got to get them good and right and work for society.
[45:11.410 --> 45:17.090]  And so I wrote this post on my blog, The Trouble is Trust and the Case for Accountability Frameworks.
[45:17.310 --> 45:21.270]  Because really early on, I was like, stop friggin' calling this thing a trust framework.
[45:21.610 --> 45:24.130]  We're talking about accountability in these systems.
[45:24.130 --> 45:31.030]  And how are the large business enterprises behind this that will be big parts of the system?
[45:31.150 --> 45:32.190]  They're not the whole thing.
[45:32.590 --> 45:34.790]  How are they going to be accountable to us?
[45:34.890 --> 45:43.030]  And maybe if you want this adopted, you shouldn't use this word like the banks just tanked the whole economy when they started this.
[45:43.370 --> 45:45.270]  And people don't really trust them.
[45:45.270 --> 45:49.270]  So why would you use that word for the core piece of what you're trying to do?
[45:49.350 --> 45:53.670]  Instead, call them something that people might like and we could sort of understand.
[45:53.830 --> 45:57.750]  Because it's hard to have a conversation about the trustworthiness of the trust framework.
[46:00.110 --> 46:02.450]  Anyway, so now we're in this...
[46:02.450 --> 46:06.730]  We've covered the strategy part, which was like that weird organizational thing.
[46:06.890 --> 46:08.490]  That was their strategy to get there.
[46:08.770 --> 46:10.810]  We covered some of what trust might mean.
[46:10.950 --> 46:14.210]  And now we're into like, what the heck is identity?
[46:16.070 --> 46:16.510]  So...
[46:16.510 --> 46:18.410]  Well, you can answer that in a single sentence, right?
[46:18.630 --> 46:19.350]  I can.
[46:19.670 --> 46:20.390]  It's really fun.
[46:20.890 --> 46:23.090]  It's socially constructed and contextual.
[46:25.030 --> 46:34.090]  Yeah, so one of the interesting things in terms of identity and the question is defining who you are, how you exist and coexist with the world and so on.
[46:34.450 --> 46:36.310]  Does anybody recognize the guy in the photo?
[46:37.150 --> 46:38.190]  No, it is not me.
[46:38.810 --> 46:40.350]  God, I'm not that much of a hipster.
[46:41.070 --> 46:42.170]  Rene Descartes, of course.
[46:42.310 --> 46:43.370]  Okay, so here's a story.
[46:43.370 --> 46:57.650]  And on the left there, you have the geocentric model of the world where you have the earth and the center and the sun and all the stars and everything rotate around the world because the Catholic Church maintained that that was the way it was up until Copernicus and Galileo came along and,
[46:57.730 --> 46:59.230]  you know, hey, I have this theory.
[46:59.310 --> 47:00.410]  Oh, I have this telescope.
[47:00.470 --> 47:01.370]  Oh, I have proof.
[47:01.370 --> 47:07.010]  And then the Catholic Church comes along and excommunicates them for saying something which is heretical.
[47:07.650 --> 47:11.530]  And, well, Descartes was watching this and there was a lot of stuff.
[47:11.650 --> 47:14.890]  I mean, this was a time of the Reformation where Martin Luther was beginning to question the church.
[47:14.890 --> 47:23.050]  And what's going on here is that the people's trust in the institution which governs the entirety of their lives, that being the Catholic Church, their trust has begun into fragment.
[47:23.410 --> 47:32.670]  And you have people questioning, well, if the earth isn't at the center of the universe, then what else is there that's not entirely true?
[47:32.670 --> 47:34.610]  What else is there that I was told as a kid?
[47:34.750 --> 47:37.710]  I mean, Santa Claus isn't real and the earth isn't the center of the universe.
[47:38.030 --> 47:38.490]  What else?
[47:38.570 --> 47:40.790]  And that's one of the things Descartes was thinking about.
[47:40.930 --> 47:46.330]  And he began to question every assumption about himself and about reality that he had.
[47:46.470 --> 47:47.510]  He's like, I see this.
[47:47.530 --> 47:48.710]  How do I know that that's a chair?
[47:48.810 --> 47:50.490]  How do I know that this and that and that?
[47:50.690 --> 47:57.790]  And basically, and I think there's a story about how he locked himself in an oven for two days trying to think about this stuff because he was also kind of a nut job at the time.
[47:57.990 --> 47:58.590]  We've all been there.
[47:58.930 --> 48:00.270]  Yeah, we've all been there, right?
[48:01.150 --> 48:03.670]  You wake up in an oven with a lampshade on your head.
[48:04.270 --> 48:04.750]  Right.
[48:06.010 --> 48:07.650]  And so here's the thing.
[48:07.830 --> 48:22.710]  As he began stripping away everything that he couldn't completely confirm to be true to himself, he came down to the one thing that he could not invalidate, which is the famous saying, I think therefore I am.
[48:22.910 --> 48:32.610]  His own existence by the virtue that he was observing himself was the only thing that he could say demonstrably and irrefutably to himself to be true.
[48:33.210 --> 48:40.790]  And as we look through all this and as we think about identity and all the layers which compose it, I like to question things and I like to get people to question things.
[48:40.950 --> 48:46.670]  And I think that this is a really good example of this notion that the one thing that he knew to be true is subjective.
[48:46.670 --> 48:48.010]  It's his own viewpoint.
[48:48.190 --> 48:53.950]  And this is the big criticism that comes about Descartes' philosophy is that I know that I am real but I don't know that you are real.
[48:54.550 --> 49:05.410]  And if you're trying to define identity as these people are trying to define this kind of an objective standard, this identity token that can persist across different contexts, you're going to run into some major problems.
[49:05.410 --> 49:08.990]  Because there's a question, is there such a thing as objective identity?
[49:09.530 --> 49:13.390]  And you have to really... I mean, they've been thinking about this for many, many years.
[49:13.530 --> 49:14.490]  I mean, this is philosophy 101.
[49:14.830 --> 49:20.630]  And another example I like to use here because this is really true to the United States and this is true to some of the stuff that's been going on here.
[49:21.150 --> 49:23.190]  I like to harken back to the Civil War.
[49:24.170 --> 49:26.470]  Because the Civil War was not about slavery.
[49:26.670 --> 49:31.970]  It was about the rights of states to nullify federal laws, one of which was to end slavery.
[49:31.970 --> 49:38.750]  And this goes all the way back to the Declaration of Independence where they were trying to say, hey, let's get rid of slavery and the South said no.
[49:38.950 --> 49:44.670]  And this tension, what that tension really is, is a tension between the states and the federal government.
[49:44.990 --> 49:49.530]  And because we had the Constitution because the Articles of Confederation didn't quite work out so well.
[49:49.710 --> 49:51.070]  And there's a whole thing about that.
[49:51.210 --> 50:00.230]  But as you see here in this map of the United States and some portions of Mexico with Emperor Norton, you have one state highlighted there and that's the state of New York.
[50:00.230 --> 50:12.050]  So before the Civil War, before Abraham Lincoln suspended habeas corpus and did the War of Northern Aggression and all that, people would say, I am a New Yorker, I am a Texan, I am a Virginian.
[50:12.410 --> 50:14.810]  After the Civil War, they would say, I am an American.
[50:15.530 --> 50:16.610]  Do you see the difference there?
[50:16.750 --> 50:25.150]  The question is your identity that you can put, the way that you identify yourself and where your notions of identity come from and the powers that be, which authority do I recognize?
[50:25.150 --> 50:29.390]  And we have the Supremacy Clause in the Constitution, which, thanks to the Civil War, is there.
[50:29.530 --> 50:33.770]  And that's one of the things that indicates one of the issues that I think we're running into.
[50:34.050 --> 50:36.610]  And another interesting linguistic play on this.
[50:36.690 --> 50:39.250]  Before the Civil War, we said the United States are.
[50:39.490 --> 50:41.330]  Now we say the United States is.
[50:41.770 --> 50:46.650]  Just think about the plurality going towards a more singular notion there.
[50:46.650 --> 50:47.570]  Cool.
[50:48.630 --> 50:55.890]  And all of this is, like, interesting to me as I continue to observe America as a Canadian.
[50:56.190 --> 50:59.810]  I've been here for 20 years, but sometimes I'm like, really?
[51:00.330 --> 51:00.810]  Okay.
[51:01.110 --> 51:03.190]  This is why we don't have a national ID, by the way.
[51:03.770 --> 51:04.250]  Yes.
[51:04.710 --> 51:05.570]  Well, it's interesting.
[51:05.870 --> 51:07.910]  So what are identifiers?
[51:08.270 --> 51:11.210]  Just so we're, like, not confusing identity and identifiers.
[51:11.210 --> 51:15.010]  They're pointers to things within particular contexts.
[51:16.030 --> 51:17.150]  That's simple.
[51:17.590 --> 51:26.910]  And what you were just talking about, we have this inherent conflict in the whole thing, which was finally my friend who's got involved, who has a...
[51:26.910 --> 51:29.930]  She's, like, a religious science minister.
[51:30.890 --> 51:32.170]  Is it religious science?
[51:32.310 --> 51:34.410]  Anyways, it's one of those groovy New Age religions.
[51:34.630 --> 51:36.030]  And she's like, you know what?
[51:36.150 --> 51:38.190]  They're all being very Abrahamic.
[51:38.510 --> 51:40.010]  I can't say it.
[51:40.010 --> 51:40.830]  It's one in the morning.
[51:41.830 --> 51:42.350]  Ibrahimic.
[51:43.010 --> 51:43.530]  Abrahamic.
[51:43.870 --> 51:44.390]  Abrahamic.
[51:44.930 --> 51:48.750]  Like, God is up there, and he comes down and...
[51:48.750 --> 51:49.310]  Work of the covenant, baby.
[51:49.690 --> 51:50.630]  I don't...
[51:50.630 --> 51:51.070]  Whatever.
[51:51.470 --> 51:52.670]  They're from the book, right?
[51:52.810 --> 51:57.070]  Like, God's up there, and your identity comes down, and they're modeling all these...
[51:57.070 --> 51:58.350]  And it's like this.
[51:58.570 --> 52:03.170]  And really, most identity, for most of us, most of the time, is relational.
[52:03.630 --> 52:06.410]  It's much more like a circle of connection and relations.
[52:07.030 --> 52:09.410]  And it's these two things keep going in conflict.
[52:09.410 --> 52:16.710]  And we built a social universe that needs some of that triangle.
[52:17.430 --> 52:21.690]  But it is not the only way to think about it, and it should be a small piece of the puzzle.
[52:21.850 --> 52:23.710]  So here's some more things riffing on that.
[52:25.770 --> 52:28.770]  And then we get to some of what industry keeps saying.
[52:28.770 --> 52:31.190]  So the industry...
[52:31.190 --> 52:33.650]  And this is where I kind of learned this later.
[52:33.890 --> 52:36.090]  I was like, oh, it sounds really fun, trusted identities.
[52:36.290 --> 52:39.390]  And I was like, oh, you mean you, like, get along and trust people.
[52:39.550 --> 52:42.770]  And they mean really verified and strongly protected.
[52:42.770 --> 52:45.770]  This was one of our pilots folks.
[52:49.890 --> 52:56.170]  This is some more headlines I pulled out off the presses from the last few months.
[52:56.170 --> 52:59.510]  So it's all about this security and the trust.
[52:59.670 --> 53:00.910]  And they're very like this.
[53:01.190 --> 53:06.410]  Because they're taking enterprise notions of managing employee identity and putting it onto citizens.
[53:13.810 --> 53:16.070]  But that's the question we have to solve.
[53:16.430 --> 53:24.470]  We needed to work in a way that we have confidence that our information won't be misused and that we can use it if we want it.
[53:24.850 --> 53:25.910]  It's a hard problem.
[53:26.610 --> 53:29.930]  Hence the fact they said, let's do a multi-stakeholder thing.
[53:30.590 --> 53:35.730]  So this is another one of those terms that keeps popping up, which is verified.
[53:36.410 --> 53:37.850]  And this is a fun example.
[53:38.050 --> 53:41.430]  I promised everyone I'd have a couple examples of where this stuff breaks down.
[53:41.810 --> 53:43.950]  So first off, how many of you are familiar with Airbnb?
[53:44.630 --> 53:44.650]  Hands?
[53:46.530 --> 53:47.570]  Okay, about half.
[53:48.070 --> 53:51.550]  It's basically a service, correct me if I'm wrong, where I create an account.
[53:51.830 --> 53:55.530]  And if I have a, like, let's say I have a house and I go out of town for the weekend.
[53:55.750 --> 53:58.410]  I can let somebody else stay in that house while I'm gone.
[53:58.470 --> 54:00.070]  And, you know, they can charge a little bit of money.
[54:00.190 --> 54:03.050]  It turns it into a kind of temporary hotel zone or something like that.
[54:03.050 --> 54:08.750]  So that said, that creates a lot of questions.
[54:08.930 --> 54:11.230]  Like, why should I let this person into my house?
[54:11.550 --> 54:14.610]  And, I mean, everyone should ask that question when they're dealing with this.
[54:14.970 --> 54:18.210]  And Airbnb has run into a lot of issues trying to deal with this.
[54:20.210 --> 54:23.570]  And they have these, all these different types of verifications are interesting.
[54:23.730 --> 54:28.770]  Because when Google and Facebook are trying to do verification, they're like, oh, just send us a government-issued ID.
[54:28.770 --> 54:32.750]  Which, by the way, I don't send ID to anybody unless there is a legal reason to do so.
[54:33.250 --> 54:40.650]  Because there's all these questions about data retention and about PI, personally identifiable information and access to that data and so on and so forth.
[54:41.490 --> 54:44.270]  Airbnb did something really interesting that we hadn't seen before, though.
[54:44.350 --> 54:46.590]  This thing called online ID verification.
[54:46.590 --> 54:51.170]  Where you could verify, quote unquote, quote unquote, verify your identity with them.
[54:51.310 --> 54:54.590]  And you get like a little verified check mark on your account so they would know you're trustworthy.
[54:55.050 --> 54:58.970]  By linking your account to your Google, your Facebook, or your LinkedIn page.
[54:59.370 --> 55:01.490]  And if you had... yeah, right, because that makes it...
[55:01.490 --> 55:02.190]  I don't trust any of this.
[55:02.190 --> 55:02.470]  Right.
[55:02.930 --> 55:04.310]  So, oh, they got an answer to that.
[55:04.450 --> 55:09.730]  If you don't trust all of those, you just post a video of yourself online saying, hi, it's me, I'm trustworthy.
[55:09.730 --> 55:11.810]  I am serious.
[55:12.030 --> 55:13.950]  Go to their page on trust.
[55:14.170 --> 55:15.270]  They totally worked this out.
[55:15.790 --> 55:18.070]  So, and they also had this new thing that I hadn't seen.
[55:18.430 --> 55:19.930]  I just checked it earlier.
[55:20.150 --> 55:21.290]  Called verified photos.
[55:21.450 --> 55:25.610]  And I see this apply for professional photography at your listing to accurately...
[55:25.610 --> 55:29.070]  And they had this thing about having a trusted watermark, which I just...
[55:29.070 --> 55:30.830]  I find that like almost absurd.
[55:31.330 --> 55:31.750]  This...
[55:31.750 --> 55:33.690]  Although it's probably good business for those photographers.
[55:34.590 --> 55:36.190]  Well, that's exactly what it is.
[55:36.370 --> 55:36.910]  Mm-hmm.
[55:38.150 --> 55:39.710]  Well, they got a lot of money.
[55:39.710 --> 55:41.730]  So, they have to spend it somehow.
[55:42.030 --> 55:42.090]  Right?
[55:42.390 --> 55:42.730]  Like...
[55:43.290 --> 55:50.990]  The other thing too is this use case sort of makes the point of why if NSDIC actually had a good outcome.
[55:52.170 --> 55:52.490]  Yes.
[55:52.490 --> 55:53.390]  Can you add some words for that?
[55:53.510 --> 55:53.830]  Huh?
[55:54.490 --> 55:55.010]  Wait.
[55:55.630 --> 55:56.150]  That...
[55:56.150 --> 55:56.590]  I don't know.
[55:57.050 --> 55:57.570]  But...
[55:57.570 --> 56:00.270]  I think most of the problems with the FPMD was not that the...
[56:01.530 --> 56:02.290]  Can I...
[56:03.850 --> 56:06.710]  So, I just want to make the point that...
[56:06.710 --> 56:15.830]  Like this is a great example where like having some kind of solution in the NSDIC realm could be really helpful to this business.
[56:16.250 --> 56:18.890]  And we could also talk about like how do you prove...
[56:18.890 --> 56:27.610]  How do you potentially share some information with the intermediary Airbnb and still have the freedom to use a pseudonym to interact?
[56:27.930 --> 56:28.910]  So, keep going.
[56:28.910 --> 56:32.290]  Oh, and by the way another interesting thing noted in the reviews.
[56:32.650 --> 56:35.230]  Has anybody looked at the Yelp page for the Hotel Pennsylvania?
[56:35.910 --> 56:37.110]  Just putting that out there.
[56:37.390 --> 56:38.450]  It's hilarious.
[56:39.010 --> 56:39.970]  It's hilarious.
[56:40.290 --> 56:40.750]  Right.
[56:41.590 --> 56:52.370]  So, this Airbnb came... thing came out and... and one of our friends in the identity community, actually one of the co-founders of the IIW with Kalia, is our friend Doc Searles from Harvard among other places.
[56:52.410 --> 56:55.130]  He's done a tremendous amount of work in identity research.
[56:55.130 --> 57:00.330]  And this actually... like he couldn't get verified under their system.
[57:00.810 --> 57:02.670]  And they basically... it basically kicked them out.
[57:02.870 --> 57:07.650]  And he wrote this big long blog post basically called, let's help Airbnb rebuild the bridge it just burned.
[57:08.190 --> 57:12.310]  And for some... it's just astonishing to me that their implementation...
[57:12.310 --> 57:15.610]  I question who it was that they asked about this.
[57:15.870 --> 57:17.690]  And I'll just go on a quick tangent.
[57:18.190 --> 57:22.910]  First, when... I've talked to a lot of people about this.
[57:22.910 --> 57:26.870]  It's about... when they're put in and kind of a real names policy and...
[57:26.870 --> 57:27.770]  things like that.
[57:28.530 --> 57:28.890]  And...
[57:28.890 --> 57:31.670]  I guess we can switch to the next one because this... this bleeds into it.
[57:32.610 --> 57:35.630]  When... when a company decides to adopt a real names policy...
[57:35.630 --> 57:36.750]  In this example, it's Quora.
[57:37.650 --> 57:39.590]  Where is it that they get... like, what's the evidence?
[57:39.730 --> 57:42.230]  Because I like... I like to see evidence before drawing conclusions.
[57:42.450 --> 57:43.430]  It's a good system, right?
[57:44.030 --> 57:44.390]  And...
[57:44.390 --> 57:45.010]  And...
[57:45.010 --> 57:46.670]  A lot of these places just like...
[57:46.670 --> 57:47.870]  Well, it seems to work for Facebook.
[57:48.030 --> 57:49.030]  It seems to work for Google.
[57:49.730 --> 57:50.090]  And...
[57:50.530 --> 57:53.090]  I've... I've tried asking people at those places and...
[57:53.090 --> 57:55.490]  At those companies and nobody has a really good response.
[57:55.710 --> 57:56.450]  Except that Tris...
[57:56.450 --> 57:58.450]  Like, God, Vik & Dutra is such a douchebag.
[57:58.610 --> 57:58.770]  So...
[57:58.770 --> 58:00.110]  Go back to the previous thing.
[58:00.190 --> 58:01.730]  Because I want to hammer in on this.
[58:01.850 --> 58:03.510]  Because that guy pissed me off so much.
[58:03.670 --> 58:03.910]  So...
[58:03.910 --> 58:04.710]  This is Quora.
[58:04.810 --> 58:07.170]  So a friend tipped me off to a discussion that was going on Quora.
[58:07.450 --> 58:10.490]  Because Quora instantiated a quote-unquote real names policy.
[58:10.970 --> 58:11.330]  And...
[58:11.330 --> 58:12.890]  I decided to join in.
[58:13.070 --> 58:16.450]  Although, interestingly enough, when you sign up for Quora, they force you to have it...
[58:16.450 --> 58:18.370]  Under their policy, they have a blank for your name.
[58:18.670 --> 58:19.030]  But...
[58:19.030 --> 58:19.930]  I said, okay, aesthetics.
[58:20.010 --> 58:20.830]  On the Quora slide?
[58:21.210 --> 58:21.510]  Yes.
[58:22.190 --> 58:22.410]  It's...
[58:22.410 --> 58:23.090]  What?
[58:23.210 --> 58:23.590]  No, no, no.
[58:24.110 --> 58:24.450]  Go back.
[58:24.610 --> 58:25.750]  This is a Quora slide, too.
[58:26.010 --> 58:26.730]  Okay, great.
[58:26.930 --> 58:27.110]  Yeah.
[58:27.450 --> 58:29.510]  We independently made the slides and merged them together.
[58:30.530 --> 58:30.890]  So...
[58:31.410 --> 58:31.590]  But...
[58:31.590 --> 58:33.310]  This is a fun example.
[58:33.430 --> 58:34.290]  This pissed me off.
[58:34.430 --> 58:37.270]  And the retribution they got out of this is so glorious.
[58:37.870 --> 58:38.230]  So...
[58:38.230 --> 58:38.370]  Okay.
[58:39.210 --> 58:39.570]  So...
[58:39.570 --> 58:40.710]  Quora had this discussion.
[58:41.250 --> 58:41.610]  Well...
[58:42.170 --> 58:43.750]  Should we have a names policy?
[58:43.950 --> 58:44.710]  So on and so forth.
[58:45.170 --> 58:46.770]  And I joined in as aestetix.
[58:47.090 --> 58:47.610]  And that would...
[58:47.610 --> 58:48.250]  You know, block.
[58:48.390 --> 58:48.810]  Can't do that.
[58:48.930 --> 58:49.050]  Okay.
[58:49.190 --> 58:50.170]  Aestetix space dot.
[58:50.550 --> 58:51.530]  You know, dot for the last name.
[58:51.670 --> 58:52.890]  Which, by the way, Google's new thing.
[58:53.010 --> 58:53.810]  They allow you to do that.
[58:54.330 --> 58:54.570]  Nope.
[58:54.730 --> 58:54.930]  Blocked.
[58:54.990 --> 58:55.210]  Okay.
[58:55.350 --> 58:56.330]  I'm getting pissed off.
[58:56.510 --> 58:58.170]  Aestetix space f*ck-you-Quora.
[58:58.410 --> 58:58.690]  Okay.
[58:58.750 --> 58:59.510]  That got blocked, too.
[58:59.970 --> 59:00.170]  Okay.
[59:00.270 --> 59:02.370]  Aestetix, space fsck-you-Quora.
[59:02.530 --> 59:03.410]  Which is, you know, the...
[59:03.410 --> 59:05.210]  I guess the George Carlin clean version.
[59:05.210 --> 59:07.610]  And that seemed to work.
[59:07.930 --> 59:12.310]  So this guy, Keith whatever, I got into a discussion with him.
[59:12.930 --> 59:15.690]  By a discussion, I mean he posted a few things.
[59:15.770 --> 59:17.170]  I posted one response to him.
[59:17.330 --> 59:21.370]  And very shortly thereafter, my account had gotten suspended and he called me a troll.
[59:21.370 --> 59:26.090]  At which point I created another account to continue the discussion, which I thought was very productive.
[59:26.610 --> 59:28.790]  And, you know, very fact based and evidence based.
[59:29.010 --> 59:31.990]  And I put the name as aesthetic space is not a troll.
[59:32.210 --> 59:34.130]  Just to clarify in case there was any confusion.
[59:34.130 --> 59:35.310]  I think we're hearing that.
[59:35.390 --> 59:36.410]  So that's it.
[59:36.490 --> 59:37.030]  Look at this.
[59:37.810 --> 59:38.210]  Yeah.
[59:38.410 --> 59:42.750]  So he says here, I feel the real names policy is what makes Quora a community.
[59:43.670 --> 59:44.450]  Password to the end.
[59:44.710 --> 59:46.430]  Real names make people accountable.
[59:46.710 --> 59:47.290]  Keep an anonymous...
[59:48.070 --> 59:50.130]  Anon under unmitigated control.
[59:50.630 --> 59:52.270]  Less moderation result in.
[59:52.350 --> 59:53.130]  And so on and so forth.
[59:53.610 --> 59:53.810]  And...
[59:54.250 --> 59:55.410]  Oh, by the way, I...
[59:55.410 --> 59:55.670]  What's that?
[59:55.810 --> 59:59.640]  Did you confirm that...
[59:59.640 --> 01:00:03.680]  As long as you have a real name sounding name, it must be real.
[01:00:04.260 --> 01:00:04.580]  So...
[01:00:04.580 --> 01:00:04.780]  Not yet.
[01:00:09.300 --> 01:00:12.220]  Just like William Shatner had the Twitter verified ID.
[01:00:12.320 --> 01:00:12.740]  Yes.
[01:00:16.110 --> 01:00:17.370]  We'll get to that in a second.
[01:00:17.570 --> 01:00:19.110]  Because that's what the next slide is.
[01:00:19.230 --> 01:00:26.050]  But one more thing I want to say is I changed the name to aesthetic space is not a troll to demonstrate I'm not a troll.
[01:00:26.230 --> 01:00:28.270]  I'm trying to do something very productive and positive.
[01:00:28.270 --> 01:00:31.910]  Had an exchange with him where I put a whole bunch of evidence on him.
[01:00:32.070 --> 01:00:33.650]  And he basically came to the...
[01:00:33.650 --> 01:00:34.050]  He...
[01:00:34.050 --> 01:00:39.650]  We basically got to the point where he refused to address any of the points I made unless I contributed more to the Quora community.
[01:00:40.170 --> 01:00:42.510]  Because apparently I had to be more involved in the...
[01:00:42.510 --> 01:00:44.130]  Yeah, this whole...
[01:00:44.130 --> 01:00:45.070]  It was ridiculous.
[01:00:45.550 --> 01:00:46.770]  And I was pretty pissed off.
[01:00:46.890 --> 01:00:47.670]  And this was back in March.
[01:00:47.830 --> 01:00:49.250]  And then this came out in...
[01:00:49.250 --> 01:00:49.710]  Was it June?
[01:00:50.050 --> 01:00:50.450]  Yeah.
[01:00:51.530 --> 01:00:54.250]  So yeah, I guess the real names policy sure worked from...
[01:00:54.250 --> 01:00:55.610]  Violet Blue wrote this article.
[01:00:55.850 --> 01:00:57.490]  Quora's misogyny problem.
[01:00:57.490 --> 01:00:58.870]  A cautionary tale.
[01:01:00.010 --> 01:01:04.410]  So I don't know if Keith just was in a different bubble.
[01:01:04.690 --> 01:01:08.490]  But there's clearly something wrong with this notion of verified...
[01:01:09.030 --> 01:01:10.470]  And one other thing I...
[01:01:10.470 --> 01:01:10.730]  Sorry.
[01:01:10.830 --> 01:01:11.950]  One other point I want to make.
[01:01:12.130 --> 01:01:13.790]  I've actually asked the head of...
[01:01:13.790 --> 01:01:16.010]  The VP of policy at Twitter about the...
[01:01:16.010 --> 01:01:18.590]  Because you guys all seen the verified Twitter IDs?
[01:01:19.850 --> 01:01:21.630]  Does anybody here have one?
[01:01:21.630 --> 01:01:23.550]  Like the little verified check box?
[01:01:26.990 --> 01:01:27.430]  Right.
[01:01:27.910 --> 01:01:28.910]  So I asked...
[01:01:28.910 --> 01:01:31.210]  I asked the head of policy at Twitter about this.
[01:01:31.350 --> 01:01:32.710]  Like how does one get one?
[01:01:32.850 --> 01:01:34.970]  And he basically said the entire purpose of it...
[01:01:34.970 --> 01:01:37.270]  Is so that if there is an imposter issue...
[01:01:37.270 --> 01:01:38.510]  They can validate...
[01:01:38.510 --> 01:01:40.330]  Like basically to keep celebrities from having...
[01:01:40.330 --> 01:01:42.390]  Like a fake Tom Cruise posting like child porn.
[01:01:42.510 --> 01:01:42.970]  Things like that.
[01:01:43.390 --> 01:01:44.610]  Which that would be bad.
[01:01:45.350 --> 01:01:45.850]  But...
[01:01:47.030 --> 01:01:50.770]  This is the problem with having symbols and tokens that people don't fully understand.
[01:01:51.070 --> 01:01:51.350]  Yeah.
[01:01:51.650 --> 01:01:51.850]  Okay.
[01:01:52.630 --> 01:01:53.630]  I totally...
[01:01:53.630 --> 01:01:54.410]  I'm with you.
[01:01:54.650 --> 01:01:57.190]  And so we are left with these questions, right?
[01:01:57.270 --> 01:01:58.710]  What does it mean to be verified?
[01:01:59.150 --> 01:02:00.750]  Who's qualified or...
[01:02:00.750 --> 01:02:06.790]  Who's qualified to validate and verify things?
[01:02:07.050 --> 01:02:09.970]  And then who's qualified to certify verifiers?
[01:02:10.050 --> 01:02:12.570]  Which is one of the things that NSTIC really want...
[01:02:12.570 --> 01:02:14.990]  They really want the...
[01:02:14.990 --> 01:02:20.130]  Identity Ecosystem Steering Group to figure out how it certifies verifiers.
[01:02:21.470 --> 01:02:23.290]  Sounds like a big mess, right?
[01:02:23.610 --> 01:02:24.570]  Can you feel this question?
[01:02:24.610 --> 01:02:24.950]  Yes.
[01:02:25.150 --> 01:02:25.470]  Question.
[01:02:26.070 --> 01:02:28.570]  Don't you notice that the identity verification systems...
[01:02:29.150 --> 01:02:33.250]  No matter who it is, it goes back to something U.S. financial?
[01:02:35.050 --> 01:02:36.790]  You just asked the question like...
[01:02:36.790 --> 01:02:38.470]  Doesn't it go back to U.S. financial?
[01:02:38.710 --> 01:02:41.570]  And part of it is that's because of know your customer rules.
[01:02:44.710 --> 01:02:45.150]  And...
[01:02:46.570 --> 01:02:47.010]  Yes.
[01:02:47.210 --> 01:02:47.530]  And...
[01:02:47.530 --> 01:02:49.690]  So we're going to get to some of the potential solutions.
[01:02:49.970 --> 01:02:51.930]  I'm not going to talk about the F6 system.
[01:02:52.190 --> 01:02:53.390]  So what's...
[01:02:53.390 --> 01:02:54.250]  What's...
[01:02:54.250 --> 01:02:56.770]  This is our favorite, you know...
[01:02:56.770 --> 01:02:58.410]  On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog.
[01:02:58.890 --> 01:03:03.710]  And we have an option to create limited liabilities personas as a sort of path through this.
[01:03:03.710 --> 01:03:06.850]  So on the one hand, you have anonymous identifiers.
[01:03:08.930 --> 01:03:16.230]  On the other hand, and sort of on the extreme level, you have 4chan where it's like everything you post, you don't even have linked.
[01:03:18.810 --> 01:03:19.530]  Uh-oh.
[01:03:19.890 --> 01:03:20.630]  Even more.
[01:03:20.630 --> 01:03:26.090]  And then you have verified identity sort of on the other end, and people get stuck like either you're anonymous or you're verified.
[01:03:26.350 --> 01:03:27.070]  And there's a whole middle.
[01:03:27.550 --> 01:03:33.190]  You've got pseudonyms and multi-state pseudonyms and self-asserted identity and socially validated ID.
[01:03:33.710 --> 01:03:35.630]  And so you have...
[01:03:36.810 --> 01:03:37.450]  Uh-oh.
[01:03:37.550 --> 01:03:38.190]  Where are we?
[01:03:40.170 --> 01:03:40.750]  So...
[01:03:43.160 --> 01:03:44.840]  I'm having...
[01:03:44.840 --> 01:03:46.540]  These are confusing to me.
[01:03:47.240 --> 01:03:49.940]  So, socially validated pseudonyms.
[01:03:50.340 --> 01:03:52.770]  You would be a socially validated pseudonym.
[01:03:53.460 --> 01:03:53.760]  I am?
[01:03:54.000 --> 01:03:54.460]  Yes.
[01:03:54.820 --> 01:03:55.300]  Okay.
[01:03:56.140 --> 01:03:58.460]  Um, because you tweet under that name and stuff.
[01:03:58.520 --> 01:03:59.060]  You guys validate me?
[01:03:59.360 --> 01:03:59.680]  No.
[01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:00.340]  No.
[01:04:00.900 --> 01:04:14.160]  And you also have some sort of self-asserted socially validated folks, which is like I'm going to self-assert identity information and it's accurate, but everybody sort of points at me and goes, yes, you're you.
[01:04:14.900 --> 01:04:30.240]  And we have this challenge of how do we actually do anonymous and verified together, which you prove and there's been some stuff where you like share some validated certificate thing and you put it through the munchie thing with this fancy math.
[01:04:30.660 --> 01:04:32.560]  Let's call crypto fancy math.
[01:04:32.840 --> 01:04:37.060]  That's like another innovation we could work on to make ourselves more understandable to the world.
[01:04:37.280 --> 01:04:42.300]  And it outputs some sort of set of true things that aren't specifically identifiable.
[01:04:43.640 --> 01:04:45.560]  This is possible online.
[01:04:46.920 --> 01:04:49.200]  It would be interesting to actually implement.
[01:04:49.620 --> 01:04:54.560]  And then you have this really fun middle ground of like how do you do a verified pseudonym?
[01:04:55.480 --> 01:05:05.620]  And potentially we could get there if we had some new social institutions we created that know like the verified side and let you link it to a pseudonym.
[01:05:05.620 --> 01:05:14.860]  And if you f*ck up, then that sort of link will be revealed to the world so you can be held accountable.
[01:05:15.200 --> 01:05:17.460]  But in the meantime, leave me alone.
[01:05:17.620 --> 01:05:25.060]  Unless I'm committing fraud, threatening to kill the president, things we've decided are like decidedly illegal.
[01:05:25.060 --> 01:05:26.960]  There's no need to know the link.
[01:05:27.140 --> 01:05:28.700]  But I'm willing to be held accountable.
[01:05:29.080 --> 01:05:33.720]  And this may be a path to get through the kind of like jam we're in between these two sides.
[01:05:34.500 --> 01:05:36.940]  So you have personas and contexts.
[01:05:37.460 --> 01:05:39.960]  And you could have two personas in the same context.
[01:05:40.100 --> 01:05:42.280]  And you could have one persona in more than one context.
[01:05:43.680 --> 01:05:46.480]  But we need to figure out how we do this for folks.
[01:05:47.760 --> 01:05:48.560]  So reputation.
[01:05:49.040 --> 01:05:51.400]  And this is where we get into the other friendly thing of reputation.
[01:05:52.100 --> 01:05:53.000]  Where does it come from?
[01:05:53.020 --> 01:05:53.700]  And what does it mean?
[01:05:53.820 --> 01:05:55.120]  By the way, I say clout scores.
[01:05:55.320 --> 01:05:57.200]  But so two things here.
[01:05:58.120 --> 01:06:00.240]  God, clout is so f*cking annoying.
[01:06:00.240 --> 01:06:02.160]  You guys are familiar with clout?
[01:06:02.980 --> 01:06:03.420]  Yeah.
[01:06:04.860 --> 01:06:05.300]  Think...
[01:06:06.780 --> 01:06:07.220]  What?
[01:06:08.060 --> 01:06:08.940]  It exists.
[01:06:09.420 --> 01:06:12.580]  Okay, clout is something I can enter my Twitter ID into.
[01:06:12.780 --> 01:06:14.600]  Click enter and it will give me a score.
[01:06:14.800 --> 01:06:16.660]  Telling me how reputable I am online.
[01:06:17.320 --> 01:06:23.400]  It's like the credit system where they give you this random score that determines whether or not you get a bank loan.
[01:06:23.640 --> 01:06:26.280]  But there's really no way to know how exactly it's formulated.
[01:06:26.420 --> 01:06:28.640]  Because those are apparently closely kept secrets.
[01:06:28.640 --> 01:06:33.500]  One of the examples that I like to use in terms of reputation, in terms of this notion of just...
[01:06:33.880 --> 01:06:37.500]  It's this notion of trust, but also where does your reputation come from?
[01:06:38.060 --> 01:06:38.420]  Is...
[01:06:38.420 --> 01:06:40.360]  Do you guys know the idea of turtles all the way down?
[01:06:40.480 --> 01:06:41.500]  The universe rests on a...
[01:06:41.500 --> 01:06:42.200]  The...
[01:06:42.640 --> 01:06:43.460]  The story is...
[01:06:43.460 --> 01:06:48.500]  I think the story is that Bertrand Russell was given a lecture about the nature of the universe and its infinite expanse.
[01:06:48.560 --> 01:06:53.140]  And there was a woman who came into the room and shouted, No, the universe rests on the back of a turtle.
[01:06:53.280 --> 01:06:54.540]  And he said, Ah, well, what's on the...
[01:06:54.540 --> 01:06:55.720]  What is a turtle standing on?
[01:06:55.780 --> 01:06:57.480]  And she said, It's turtles all the way down.
[01:06:57.920 --> 01:06:59.660]  Which is basically where that comes from.
[01:07:00.080 --> 01:07:02.800]  So the question is, well, where does reputation come from?
[01:07:02.960 --> 01:07:04.220]  Like, why do I trust somebody?
[01:07:04.320 --> 01:07:05.420]  Why does somebody have a reputation?
[01:07:05.640 --> 01:07:07.320]  Do they have a reputation because of something else?
[01:07:08.300 --> 01:07:11.700]  It's sort of a recursive web of trust type thing.
[01:07:11.840 --> 01:07:13.900]  Which is what I want to kind of imply with that.
[01:07:14.740 --> 01:07:18.120]  So the next instantiation I want to look at here is...
[01:07:19.080 --> 01:07:25.560]  One of the interesting manifestations of reputation and trying to figure out who is the person that I really should be following.
[01:07:26.260 --> 01:07:29.340]  Barack Obama's Twitter account is really interesting for this.
[01:07:29.800 --> 01:07:31.500]  There's three things I want to point out.
[01:07:31.640 --> 01:07:34.300]  Number one is that little verified token we talked about before.
[01:07:34.780 --> 01:07:38.100]  The other is he has, like, you know, 80 gazillion followers.
[01:07:38.320 --> 01:07:39.120]  Or what is it?
[01:07:39.200 --> 01:07:40.440]  40 million or something like that.
[01:07:40.640 --> 01:07:46.480]  And, you know, if there's a fake Barack Obama account that has fewer followers, you can usually tell, like, based on who has that higher following.
[01:07:46.720 --> 01:07:51.660]  The other one that Obama does, and I haven't seen a whole lot because he has a press team that's usually updated on this.
[01:07:51.660 --> 01:07:57.300]  But any tweet that is signed with hyphen BO, like Barack Obama, is from the president himself.
[01:07:57.560 --> 01:08:05.440]  And all of these are ways to establish basically the validation and reputation of why should I consider this Twitter account to be valid?
[01:08:06.320 --> 01:08:09.880]  It's similar to the whole fake Steve Jobs thing that happened a few years ago.
[01:08:10.400 --> 01:08:12.040]  Another example here is with Reddit.
[01:08:12.180 --> 01:08:16.320]  You have this notion of Reddit karma where you have these stories which get upvoted.
[01:08:16.360 --> 01:08:20.860]  You click the little up icon or the down icon and you can move a story up and down.
[01:08:20.860 --> 01:08:24.760]  You can give a user karma or you can give a user reddit gold.
[01:08:24.920 --> 01:08:30.640]  If somebody does a really good comment, then you can click on them, like, basically give them a plus one effectively.
[01:08:31.300 --> 01:08:34.340]  So there's all kinds of ways we've attempted to establish reputation.
[01:08:34.720 --> 01:08:37.860]  Persistent identity and persistent reputation is a totally different thing.
[01:08:38.200 --> 01:08:47.280]  But this seems to work moderately well within context provided the reputation persist within a language and a taxonomy that everyone understands and has agreed to.
[01:08:47.280 --> 01:08:48.380]  So...
[01:08:48.380 --> 01:08:49.020]  Yeah.
[01:08:49.240 --> 01:08:51.820]  So you said something in that last statement.
[01:08:52.060 --> 01:08:58.920]  So persistent identifiers are key to building reputation over time and in different contexts.
[01:08:59.260 --> 01:09:06.900]  So it's like that pointer that remains consistent that you can anchor what you observe as behaviors is a key thing.
[01:09:07.920 --> 01:09:10.100]  Which is one reason identity is interesting.
[01:09:10.340 --> 01:09:18.520]  So we're back at the turtles and the circles and triangles of like these different concepts and we need to figure them out.
[01:09:19.020 --> 01:09:22.240]  And we're almost at the end.
[01:09:22.240 --> 01:09:23.600]  And so we've got...
[01:09:23.600 --> 01:09:25.040]  We won the Nymwars, right?
[01:09:25.040 --> 01:09:25.680]  You guys saw that, right?
[01:09:25.720 --> 01:09:26.040]  We won.
[01:09:26.200 --> 01:09:26.800]  We won.
[01:09:26.820 --> 01:09:26.840]  Yay!
[01:09:26.840 --> 01:09:28.440]  Go Team America, right?
[01:09:29.740 --> 01:09:30.200]  And...
[01:09:30.760 --> 01:09:31.260]  What?
[01:09:31.540 --> 01:09:32.040]  No.
[01:09:32.500 --> 01:09:35.940]  You can come and sign up and we're going to pass this around.
[01:09:36.160 --> 01:09:39.840]  Which is like, I'm vaguely interested in learning more about N-Stick.
[01:09:39.860 --> 01:09:40.520]  And leave what?
[01:09:41.080 --> 01:09:42.220]  A piece of paper.
[01:09:43.780 --> 01:09:44.840]  Whatever you want.
[01:09:45.060 --> 01:09:46.860]  And we'll contact you.
[01:09:46.860 --> 01:09:50.280]  But I wanted to put this out into the audit here.
[01:09:50.480 --> 01:09:51.460]  You're a friendly person.
[01:09:51.880 --> 01:09:52.420]  Here.
[01:09:54.160 --> 01:09:56.300]  Because I have some...
[01:09:56.300 --> 01:10:05.040]  I remembered her body because I saw it before and we interacted and I have a reputation based on that like visual authentication moment.
[01:10:05.900 --> 01:10:08.420]  Oh, that was all identity language.
[01:10:10.740 --> 01:10:12.260]  You can find me online.
[01:10:12.500 --> 01:10:13.220]  I'm identity woman.
[01:10:13.540 --> 01:10:14.240]  Never write slash.
[01:10:14.540 --> 01:10:14.960]  Oh my God.
[01:10:18.080 --> 01:10:21.100]  So, you tracked this more this week than I did.
[01:10:21.440 --> 01:10:21.600]  Oh yeah.
[01:10:21.600 --> 01:10:22.580]  We won the Nim Wars.
[01:10:23.020 --> 01:10:23.380]  Okay.
[01:10:23.520 --> 01:10:24.340]  So, here's the thing.
[01:10:24.480 --> 01:10:25.320]  It was a couple days ago.
[01:10:25.420 --> 01:10:26.320]  I think this was on Thursday.
[01:10:26.480 --> 01:10:27.140]  Google came out.
[01:10:27.520 --> 01:10:28.500]  So, actually rewind.
[01:10:28.820 --> 01:10:36.500]  About a month ago, Vic Gundotra, the guy who was in charge of Google Plus and the guy who was solely responsible for that quote-unquote real names policy, he left the company.
[01:10:37.180 --> 01:10:37.620]  Yay!
[01:10:38.920 --> 01:10:39.160]  Yeah.
[01:10:40.780 --> 01:10:42.700]  So, you know, maybe they finally listened.
[01:10:42.700 --> 01:10:50.640]  So, and a couple days ago they issued this thing basically saying that they're not going to, they're going to let you use the name, whatever name you want.
[01:10:50.700 --> 01:10:53.180]  And they had a hint of an apology in there.
[01:10:53.380 --> 01:11:00.880]  And, you know, number one, first off, I think that this moved a mountain because there were all these like articles everywhere, oh my God, Google actually did this.
[01:11:00.880 --> 01:11:05.600]  And what was really actually kind of disturbing was all the people who were saying they preferred the names policy.
[01:11:05.780 --> 01:11:06.880]  And you can actually...
[01:11:07.420 --> 01:11:07.540]  They did?
[01:11:08.040 --> 01:11:08.280]  What?
[01:11:08.480 --> 01:11:09.280]  They preferred it?
[01:11:09.380 --> 01:11:10.360]  They said that this week?
[01:11:10.780 --> 01:11:11.060]  What?
[01:11:11.360 --> 01:11:12.580]  Yeah, there were people leaving...
[01:11:12.580 --> 01:11:14.520]  There's some real douchebags on Google Plus.
[01:11:14.580 --> 01:11:16.120]  I think that's the only people that are left on there.
[01:11:16.300 --> 01:11:18.040]  Every place when things change.
[01:11:18.600 --> 01:11:18.900]  Right.
[01:11:19.180 --> 01:11:19.420]  Is this true?
[01:11:19.560 --> 01:11:24.660]  You could actually probably do a demographic profile on people who are opposed to the names policy versus those who are for it.
[01:11:24.660 --> 01:11:27.080]  I think we should pay somebody to do a study about that.
[01:11:27.420 --> 01:11:27.460]  Okay.
[01:11:27.760 --> 01:11:27.940]  So...
[01:11:29.000 --> 01:11:29.400]  Okay.
[01:11:29.720 --> 01:11:30.000]  So...
[01:11:31.500 --> 01:11:34.220]  So this is important though because it's...
[01:11:34.220 --> 01:11:37.180]  There are a few people who are like, okay, so this was almost...
[01:11:37.180 --> 01:11:40.440]  This is like a three-year anniversary present because this all...
[01:11:40.440 --> 01:11:42.500]  Nim Wars basically started in July of...
[01:11:43.060 --> 01:11:43.920]  Was it 2011?
[01:11:44.140 --> 01:11:45.620]  So this is kind of the three years to the date.
[01:11:46.040 --> 01:11:51.020]  And they had a hint of an apology and it was like, okay, that's about as much as a large corporation is going to give us.
[01:11:51.340 --> 01:11:53.860]  But here's something that I thought was interesting.
[01:11:53.860 --> 01:11:56.300]  Scud, somebody who I think is brilliant.
[01:11:56.500 --> 01:11:57.700]  I met her through all of this.
[01:11:58.080 --> 01:11:58.880]  And I like this.
[01:11:58.960 --> 01:12:00.140]  Meanwhile in Alternate Universe.
[01:12:00.320 --> 01:12:00.840]  And one of the things...
[01:12:00.840 --> 01:12:02.960]  Let me see if I can zoom in and read it a little bit.
[01:12:06.000 --> 01:12:06.800]  It says...
[01:12:06.800 --> 01:12:09.320]  The first sentence of that second paragraph...
[01:12:09.320 --> 01:12:12.360]  Because she basically looked at that policy thing that I just posted.
[01:12:13.000 --> 01:12:15.900]  And she wrote it the way that she wished it could have been written.
[01:12:16.120 --> 01:12:27.460]  And notice, We apologize unreservedly to those people who through our actions were marginalized, denied accesses to services, and whose identities were treated as lesser.
[01:12:27.720 --> 01:12:31.580]  And there's a whole lot more, but I thought that that sentence was particularly poignant.
[01:12:32.400 --> 01:12:32.880]  So...
[01:12:33.760 --> 01:12:41.240]  And to quote Jason Scott on Twitter a couple days ago, Hey Google, f*ck you, f*ck you, f*ck you, f*ck you, f*ck you, and f*ck you.
[01:12:41.720 --> 01:12:43.000]  That's to quote Jason Scott.
[01:12:43.780 --> 01:12:44.420]  Yeah.
[01:12:44.460 --> 01:12:44.780]  Okay.
[01:12:45.040 --> 01:12:56.160]  So some people who have their identities taken away from them, with like arbitrary, bureaucratic corporate power, have some emotional feelings about it.
[01:12:56.300 --> 01:12:58.400]  I certainly did when I got banned.
[01:12:58.620 --> 01:13:01.020]  And it made me more...
[01:13:01.640 --> 01:13:06.560]  Because I got banned because I wanted to be Kaliya identity woman on my Google profile.
[01:13:07.560 --> 01:13:09.920]  Anyways, so this is like a happy note.
[01:13:10.120 --> 01:13:10.660]  We're in HOPE.
[01:13:10.860 --> 01:13:11.540]  HOPE, right?
[01:13:11.860 --> 01:13:13.560]  So hope is...
[01:13:13.560 --> 01:13:18.040]  This diagram is kind of hard to read, and I didn't put a headline on it.
[01:13:18.120 --> 01:13:20.240]  So you're like, what the friggin' heck is this?
[01:13:20.360 --> 01:13:21.880]  So the province of British Columbia.
[01:13:22.200 --> 01:13:22.360]  Wow.
[01:13:22.720 --> 01:13:24.820]  Two people want to stay involved with NSDIC.
[01:13:24.900 --> 01:13:25.780]  You're a great audience.
[01:13:26.060 --> 01:13:28.440]  But some of you will come and give me your cards later, I know.
[01:13:31.140 --> 01:13:40.120]  The BC government built a triple blind identity and services and authentication system that's friggin' cool.
[01:13:41.060 --> 01:13:42.540]  And you're all crypto people.
[01:13:43.260 --> 01:13:44.340]  Not all of you.
[01:13:44.460 --> 01:13:45.480]  Many of you are.
[01:13:45.700 --> 01:13:46.940]  I don't want to like...
[01:13:46.940 --> 01:13:49.180]  But it's very cool.
[01:13:51.140 --> 01:13:52.240]  You're familiar.
[01:13:52.680 --> 01:13:58.840]  So like first you do authentication, and they did it via the credit card system, but only to check whether the card is valid.
[01:13:59.180 --> 01:14:03.260]  And then they pop you over to another thing that has some ID information, if it's appropriate.
[01:14:03.700 --> 01:14:06.380]  And then if you need to get into government records.
[01:14:06.800 --> 01:14:11.120]  And it's all like chopped up, and they worked so hard to build it.
[01:14:11.460 --> 01:14:11.940]  Okay.
[01:14:12.360 --> 01:14:12.640]  Yes?
[01:14:16.580 --> 01:14:17.920]  No, this is not.
[01:14:18.120 --> 01:14:25.960]  This is issued by the province, and it's like a joint healthcare driver's license, which sounds really scary, except they built it really, really, really well.
[01:14:25.960 --> 01:14:27.480]  Here's how I describe it.
[01:14:27.640 --> 01:14:31.720]  Here's the theoretical super awesome systems all of you build in labs.
[01:14:32.420 --> 01:14:36.660]  Here's where we are most of the time in what people are building.
[01:14:36.920 --> 01:14:38.920]  And BC got like here.
[01:14:39.220 --> 01:14:46.880]  Like cheap enough to implement for 4 million people, and really good, and functional.
[01:14:47.660 --> 01:14:49.260]  And potentially usable.
[01:14:49.520 --> 01:14:59.300]  So I'm really proud of them, and it's potentially a model to look at in terms of like triple blinding these systems, so they allow you to do stuff, but they don't merge everything together.
[01:14:59.560 --> 01:15:02.100]  And the best part about it was they did a citizen panel.
[01:15:02.320 --> 01:15:10.300]  They literally got 36 randomly selected citizens from the province and said, what should the future policies be?
[01:15:10.440 --> 01:15:11.280]  Is this okay?
[01:15:11.720 --> 01:15:14.460]  And they wrote the future policies for the system.
[01:15:16.140 --> 01:15:17.740]  So this is your opportunity.
[01:15:18.140 --> 01:15:20.880]  We're inviting you to come have fun with us in NSTIC.
[01:15:21.040 --> 01:15:21.680]  We're nice people.
[01:15:22.740 --> 01:15:32.380]  And even if you don't want to get actively involved, we need to like get really upset if they do really crummy things, because they're going to implement them, and we need them to be good.
[01:15:32.600 --> 01:15:34.480]  So join NSTIC.
[01:15:34.480 --> 01:15:38.760]  I have a blog post with the simple 15 step process to join.
[01:15:38.900 --> 01:15:40.340]  Simple, only 15 steps.
[01:15:40.440 --> 01:15:41.580]  Only 15 steps.
[01:15:43.540 --> 01:15:44.280]  I know.
[01:15:44.760 --> 01:15:47.300]  Well, you know, they didn't really want it to be an open process.
[01:15:47.440 --> 01:15:49.100]  So this is my vision of what we could do.
[01:15:49.240 --> 01:15:58.320]  Instead of it being like 500 companies and 100 people, we could have 500,000, 50,000 people, or 5,000 people even, and like shift the dynamic.
[01:15:58.580 --> 01:16:00.740]  This is a little bit ambitious, I know.
[01:16:00.740 --> 01:16:05.420]  But you can come to the next plenary, which is at the biometrics conference in Florida.
[01:16:07.700 --> 01:16:09.500]  And you can join nym rights.
[01:16:14.800 --> 01:16:20.380]  And I promise in the next 24 hours, we'll post a resource list from the talk on my blog.
[01:16:22.000 --> 01:16:22.460]  Questions?
[01:16:30.570 --> 01:16:31.230]  Mm-hmm.
[01:16:31.990 --> 01:16:34.310]  So does this room have a roving mic?
[01:16:34.890 --> 01:16:35.590]  Helpful people?
[01:16:35.770 --> 01:16:35.990]  No.
[01:16:36.210 --> 01:16:37.050]  Okay, I have to repeat it.
[01:16:37.150 --> 01:16:37.490]  Keep going.
[01:16:44.510 --> 01:16:46.170]  So this is a great question.
[01:16:46.830 --> 01:16:48.030]  What do we do about astroturfing?
[01:16:48.630 --> 01:16:52.510]  We could also ask like, what happens when the government creates fake people to do bad stuff?
[01:16:52.970 --> 01:16:54.950]  It's another version of the same problem.
[01:16:56.230 --> 01:16:56.710]  Theoretical.
[01:16:57.910 --> 01:16:58.390]  Theoretical?
[01:16:59.210 --> 01:16:59.690]  Exactly.
[01:17:00.130 --> 01:17:00.310]  Okay.
[01:17:04.410 --> 01:17:06.150]  A real astroturfing.
[01:17:06.290 --> 01:17:09.630]  So I think this, where is it at?
[01:17:10.110 --> 01:17:10.930]  ClickSSL.com.
[01:17:12.010 --> 01:17:12.890]  ClickSSL.com.
[01:17:13.030 --> 01:17:13.330]  ClickSSL.com.
[01:17:13.330 --> 01:17:15.310]  So I think this is a totally good question.
[01:17:15.470 --> 01:17:18.530]  And in fact, the folks at PlanetWork thought about this too.
[01:17:18.530 --> 01:17:25.510]  I think a piece of it is this is where reputation comes in.
[01:17:25.670 --> 01:17:27.150]  Where did the identity come from?
[01:17:27.290 --> 01:17:28.530]  How long has it been around?
[01:17:28.690 --> 01:17:29.450]  And what has it done?
[01:17:30.470 --> 01:17:37.010]  And it becomes harder to create astroturfing profiles if they have more richness depth in history.
[01:17:38.390 --> 01:17:40.410]  So that's one piece of it, I think.
[01:17:40.550 --> 01:17:42.830]  But it's a social issue that we need to address.
[01:17:43.730 --> 01:17:46.210]  It's like these things don't necessarily have one answer.
[01:17:46.510 --> 01:17:50.670]  But it's persistence and reputation potentially.
[01:17:50.670 --> 01:17:51.150]  Yes.
[01:17:51.490 --> 01:17:52.290]  I think Joe is next.
[01:17:52.530 --> 01:17:52.930]  Okay.
[01:17:53.750 --> 01:18:05.870]  I'm still trying to wrap my mind around what is the point in terms of what would success look like in the minds of the people who instituted this whole process and or in your minds.
[01:18:05.870 --> 01:18:12.670]  So this BC system for example, is the idea to build something like that for the United States of America?
[01:18:12.810 --> 01:18:22.590]  So the answer is, so the BC system had very particular things that made it implementable.
[01:18:23.110 --> 01:18:34.790]  One part was they have government health insurance and they had 4 million people and 9 million health care insurance cards.
[01:18:35.510 --> 01:18:42.770]  And that means every citizen is eating a giant fraud junk in their insurance premiums.
[01:18:42.950 --> 01:18:45.210]  And they're like, hmm, can you fix this government?
[01:18:45.530 --> 01:18:47.490]  Like, people own the problem.
[01:18:48.990 --> 01:19:00.630]  I share it because it's in North America and it is at a scale that I think we should be thinking about solving these problems, which is 4 million to 10 million people.
[01:19:04.770 --> 01:19:09.950]  And the goal isn't to build that system because it doesn't work for the whole country.
[01:19:10.090 --> 01:19:20.590]  The goal of what they're trying to do is go, look, you've got institutions and transactions in them.
[01:19:20.690 --> 01:19:22.570]  You have a ton of government.
[01:19:22.750 --> 01:19:24.070]  And like, make it work, guys.
[01:19:24.230 --> 01:19:29.710]  Get the legal and policy framework so you can do interoperability across different things.
[01:19:29.710 --> 01:19:37.310]  Like, how could I take my BC ID if I got one because I was born there so they're the people responsible for what my birth date is?
[01:19:37.610 --> 01:19:43.650]  And like, could I get it and then go use it when I go prove my birth date somewhere else?
[01:19:43.650 --> 01:19:44.110]  Okay.
[01:19:49.420 --> 01:19:59.020]  It sounds like that system exists for people to use when they need to access at least some categories of services provided by...
[01:19:59.020 --> 01:19:59.960]  By the government.
[01:20:00.220 --> 01:20:00.600]  Right.
[01:20:00.780 --> 01:20:06.480]  And they're talking about how do they also enable citizens to take that and go use it in the private sector.
[01:20:09.720 --> 01:20:11.280]  No, but that's for BC.
[01:20:11.560 --> 01:20:19.380]  And the point of what NSTIC is trying to do is trying to say, which is a U.S. thing, it's trying to figure out how do you get...
[01:20:19.380 --> 01:20:24.980]  You can use your private sector ID to go to government or the other way.
[01:20:25.100 --> 01:20:27.660]  How can you use your government ID to go to the private sector?
[01:20:27.980 --> 01:20:29.680]  How do you create interoperability?
[01:20:30.800 --> 01:20:31.700]  How do you...
[01:20:31.700 --> 01:20:33.520]  I know it does, but that's the point.
[01:20:33.740 --> 01:20:45.480]  It's like, how do you get your utility company who knows who you are because they sell you electricity and your address because they're putting it into your house to go prove to the government that you are the person living at the house?
[01:20:46.140 --> 01:20:48.220]  Because you don't want a national ID.
[01:20:49.480 --> 01:20:49.920]  Right?
[01:20:50.120 --> 01:20:53.920]  Like, this is a social construct which America has decided.
[01:20:53.940 --> 01:20:55.620]  So how do you get around it?
[01:20:55.780 --> 01:20:56.660]  How do you...
[01:20:56.660 --> 01:20:57.040]  How
[01:21:00.390 --> 01:21:02.250]  do you issue all schemes?
[01:21:02.510 --> 01:21:02.810]  Yeah.
[01:21:03.490 --> 01:21:04.030]  Maybe...
[01:21:04.030 --> 01:21:04.230]  Yes.
[01:21:04.790 --> 01:21:06.110]  All this is happening.
[01:21:07.770 --> 01:21:08.850]  I know.
[01:21:13.550 --> 01:21:14.270]  Because...
[01:21:14.270 --> 01:21:16.690]  So remember the problem that we had?
[01:21:17.250 --> 01:21:28.030]  Like, I pointed out this sort of problem landscape, which was, do you really want the dongle token thing for every time you go to a new agency?
[01:21:28.030 --> 01:21:30.950]  You as a citizen, get a thingy.
[01:21:30.950 --> 01:21:32.550]  Like, that's not going to work.
[01:21:33.170 --> 01:21:33.630]  Right.
[01:21:34.030 --> 01:21:35.790]  I think that's just a little bit...
[01:21:35.790 --> 01:21:36.990]  That's a little bit different.
[01:21:37.270 --> 01:21:38.050]  I mean, I...
[01:21:38.050 --> 01:21:40.710]  This sounds like it's a matter of convenience.
[01:21:41.970 --> 01:21:42.890]  Can you...
[01:21:42.890 --> 01:21:43.210]  Sorry.
[01:21:43.370 --> 01:21:44.310]  This sounds like...
[01:21:44.310 --> 01:21:46.590]  It sounds like you're talking about a matter of convenience.
[01:21:47.190 --> 01:21:48.010]  Convenience, yes.
[01:21:48.130 --> 01:21:48.270]  Right.
[01:21:48.430 --> 01:21:48.770]  Yes.
[01:21:48.970 --> 01:21:50.850]  This is supposed to be easy to use.
[01:21:51.510 --> 01:21:53.610]  That would be a mandate from the NSTIC itself.
[01:21:53.610 --> 01:21:53.830]  Right.
[01:21:54.030 --> 01:21:58.330]  But that can mean it's pretty expensive in terms of like...
[01:21:58.330 --> 01:22:01.390]  The system that you were talking about in British Columbia.
[01:22:01.770 --> 01:22:02.250]  Yeah.
[01:22:02.570 --> 01:22:04.630]  You mentioned that it was triple blind.
[01:22:04.790 --> 01:22:05.050]  Yeah.
[01:22:05.630 --> 01:22:06.030]  That...
[01:22:06.030 --> 01:22:06.990]  How is it triple blind?
[01:22:09.510 --> 01:22:10.630]  Because they...
[01:22:13.690 --> 01:22:33.050]  It's triple blind because it's dividing the pieces of the transactions and separating the databases in ways that mean that they're doing authentication using SecureKey to prove whether Whether the token on your RFID-enabled ID card is valid or not, if you lose it,
[01:22:33.370 --> 01:22:48.130]  unlike your driver's license, which doesn't turn off and become invalid, the electronic version does, and someone else tries to use it, and that's not a valid card anymore, because the owner of the card turned it off.
[01:22:49.190 --> 01:22:55.050]  So that happens, and then it bumps over to another thing, and SecureKey never knows who is the person with that card.
[01:22:56.070 --> 01:23:03.710]  And then it bumps over into yet another... into the other piece, which is like whatever type of service you're trying to get.
[01:23:03.870 --> 01:23:08.370]  And it's this... the technical term they use is polymorphic.
[01:23:12.670 --> 01:23:15.070]  Good, I'm glad the gentleman said he knows what I'm saying.
[01:23:15.190 --> 01:23:17.350]  I have to interpret it for the cameras, yes?
[01:23:17.490 --> 01:23:18.630]  I think I can see this brain melting.
[01:23:28.810 --> 01:23:31.170]  But this system's really cheap.
[01:23:31.790 --> 01:23:33.130]  Sure, I understand that.
[01:23:33.250 --> 01:23:34.250]  The U.S.
[01:23:34.570 --> 01:23:39.350]  system where you get a token for everything, like nobody can afford $12 a year per thing.
[01:23:39.350 --> 01:23:44.270]  No, but once you go through the chain, that chain is exposed.
[01:23:44.730 --> 01:23:47.390]  It's still all one chain, right?
[01:23:48.030 --> 01:23:50.790]  It's still all linked and transmitted.
[01:23:51.090 --> 01:23:53.450]  It's not... it's still one...
[01:23:53.450 --> 01:23:54.230]  Oh, that's all the time.
[01:23:54.230 --> 01:23:55.170]  One token.
[01:23:55.970 --> 01:24:02.590]  No, because each time you... each of the different services, it's sort of like different tokens for different things all in one card.
[01:24:02.590 --> 01:24:07.450]  It's like... and this is why I wanted to share it with you.
[01:24:07.670 --> 01:24:10.570]  If you wanted to dive in more, please look at it.
[01:24:10.710 --> 01:24:12.270]  It's a good example.
[01:24:12.550 --> 01:24:17.110]  So you're saying that the access tokens are the street on one card?
[01:24:17.390 --> 01:24:17.950]  Yes.
[01:24:18.630 --> 01:24:19.230]  Okay.
[01:24:20.830 --> 01:24:24.290]  Companies are asking for this?
[01:24:24.990 --> 01:24:26.810]  So they don't have to build it for themselves.
[01:24:27.390 --> 01:24:29.110]  Go back to Airbnb.
[01:24:29.570 --> 01:24:31.410]  They have a giant problem.
[01:24:31.410 --> 01:24:34.670]  It's really interesting and disturbing at the same time.
[01:24:34.870 --> 01:24:47.630]  I can understand why the government might want it to be possible for a four-year utility company to certify for them that you are the person who pays for, let's say, electrical service at this address.
[01:24:47.930 --> 01:24:48.190]  Sure.
[01:24:48.330 --> 01:24:54.550]  I can understand why the government would find that useful and would just someone take delivering certain services to you instead of...
[01:24:54.550 --> 01:24:54.830]  Yeah.
[01:24:55.310 --> 01:24:57.570]  Going the other way is in some ways...
[01:24:57.570 --> 01:24:58.270]  Right.
[01:24:58.450 --> 01:25:01.810]  And that's where my like, whoop, whoop, whoop, I get really worried.
[01:25:01.810 --> 01:25:05.610]  Because I get worried that the private sector is going to go, oh, look, it's so easy.
[01:25:05.730 --> 01:25:07.670]  We'll just ask for a real ID everywhere.
[01:25:07.670 --> 01:25:12.630]  And this is where I want to make sure that the nyms stuff and the pseudonym stuff is there.
[01:25:12.630 --> 01:25:21.590]  And then we have the baseline policy frameworks that say actually only these types of transactions can you ask for a real ID.
[01:25:22.570 --> 01:25:27.450]  As ways to prevent it becoming really easy to just ask for this everywhere.
[01:25:27.630 --> 01:25:30.930]  Which is actually like if you go to the extreme end, that's what you end up with.
[01:25:30.930 --> 01:25:34.930]  And I've done a talk on what I called participatory totalitarianism.
[01:25:35.710 --> 01:25:43.250]  It's sort of where you end up if you're asking for real ID for everything and linking all the different contexts of all people together all the time.
[01:25:43.890 --> 01:25:48.510]  And I don't... and we could end up there with this if you kind of like draw the dots.
[01:25:49.370 --> 01:25:56.530]  And I'm actually quite concerned given the level of defense industry involvement in the institution right now.
[01:25:56.730 --> 01:25:57.730]  I'm like, oh, really?
[01:25:57.830 --> 01:26:03.670]  Was this just a game to turn the whole ID system over the defense industry, which is the private sector?
[01:26:04.210 --> 01:26:05.490]  And like, oops, ta-da!
[01:26:08.310 --> 01:26:10.730]  So there's audience members talking and...
[01:26:12.130 --> 01:26:15.810]  Why don't we actually at this point, I think it could turn into a group session.
[01:26:15.810 --> 01:26:18.490]  Just circle and maybe go off camera.
[01:26:19.570 --> 01:26:20.250]  Oh, yeah.
[01:26:20.730 --> 01:26:22.290]  We're off camera already.
[01:26:22.290 --> 01:26:22.670]  Good.
[01:26:22.870 --> 01:26:23.110]  Okay.
[01:26:24.430 --> 01:26:28.010]  But if you want to keep talking, we want to keep talking to you.
[01:26:28.250 --> 01:26:29.410]  But people want to go to bed.
[01:26:29.550 --> 01:26:30.210]  It's 2 in the morning.
[01:26:30.910 --> 01:26:31.230]  Oh, yeah.
[01:26:31.470 --> 01:26:32.250]  Sorry about that.
[01:26:32.570 --> 01:26:34.550]  I have cards if you want them.
[01:26:34.850 --> 01:26:35.510]  Thanks for coming.
[01:26:37.730 --> 01:26:38.210]  Yay!
[01:26:39.970 --> 01:26:40.930]  Your identity!
[01:26:42.790 --> 01:26:43.570]  Restore the fourth.
[01:26:43.750 --> 01:26:44.930]  I've heard of you guys.
[01:26:45.610 --> 01:26:45.970]  Yeah.
[01:26:46.350 --> 01:26:50.170]  It's really actually cool to get an update because I talked to you about...
[01:26:50.170 --> 01:26:53.550]  Well, I hadn't gotten involved in this at the last talk, so this is completely an update.
[01:26:54.270 --> 01:26:54.810]  What'd you think?
[01:26:55.650 --> 01:26:55.770]  Good.
[01:26:56.890 --> 01:26:57.690]  It was long.
[01:26:57.890 --> 01:26:58.730]  It was fun.
[01:26:59.190 --> 01:27:00.130]  I wanted to do the slides.
[01:27:00.550 --> 01:27:02.110]  If I could be able to, like, take them away.
[01:27:03.410 --> 01:27:03.550]  Yeah.
[01:27:04.030 --> 01:27:04.630]  My name is Johnny.
[01:27:04.910 --> 01:27:05.690]  I sort of get the...
[01:27:05.690 --> 01:27:06.010]  I sort of get the...
[01:27:06.010 --> 01:27:10.250]  I think that they have a predetermined objective for this.
[01:27:10.250 --> 01:27:11.750]  I think this is...
[01:27:11.750 --> 01:27:12.050]  Yeah, yeah.
[01:27:12.050 --> 01:27:13.130]  So that gets complicated, right?
[01:27:13.330 --> 01:27:16.930]  So within the IGESG, there are multiple groups of individuals.
[01:27:17.750 --> 01:27:19.050]  So there are some that I call lifers.
[01:27:19.350 --> 01:27:20.030]  Yeah, I get it.
[01:27:20.070 --> 01:27:23.890]  So this is the latest version of what they've been trying to do for over 20 years.
[01:27:29.870 --> 01:27:43.290]  And there's the other group, which are the major corporations, which are like, well, if we actually get something going, maybe we'll get them to, like, basically recommend within the policy our product.
[01:27:43.550 --> 01:27:43.710]  Yeah.
[01:27:43.990 --> 01:27:46.530]  And all these places, like, basically they want to make a bunch of money.
[01:27:46.530 --> 01:27:47.430]  And I'm talking...
[01:27:47.430 --> 01:27:48.430]  And the lower...
[01:27:48.430 --> 01:27:52.670]  The other tier is small companies that are basically the stores that are trying to...
[01:27:52.670 --> 01:27:54.010]  They're trying to make costs.
[01:27:54.650 --> 01:27:57.070]  And there's really very little, like, people...
[01:27:57.070 --> 01:27:57.250]  Yeah.
[01:27:57.250 --> 01:28:01.530]  I mean, I can see if this thing drags on for too much longer, sooner or later, some company...
[01:28:02.250 --> 01:28:02.850]  I mean, we all...
[01:28:02.850 --> 01:28:05.590]  We're halfway there with, you know, everything on in your Facebook.
[01:28:06.150 --> 01:28:07.270]  I hope that I'd be longer.
[01:28:09.310 --> 01:28:09.590]  Yes.
[01:28:09.590 --> 01:28:10.610]  I cannot put...
[01:28:10.610 --> 01:28:11.130]  A couple years ago.
[01:28:11.570 --> 01:28:12.870]  I started...
[01:28:13.330 --> 01:28:13.890]  That's serious.
[01:28:14.210 --> 01:28:15.410]  They will not let me show it on there.
[01:28:15.410 --> 01:28:17.010]  I'm gonna sit for a second.
[01:28:17.030 --> 01:28:17.490]  Okay, that's cool.
[01:28:17.530 --> 01:28:18.650]  We're just both...
[01:28:18.650 --> 01:28:19.090]  That would be cool.
[01:28:20.370 --> 01:28:22.710]  They say, oh, um...
[01:28:22.710 --> 01:28:24.030]  You'll need to send us an idea.
[01:28:24.410 --> 01:28:26.410]  Of course my answer is, um...
[01:28:27.210 --> 01:28:27.630]  ESP.
[01:28:27.990 --> 01:28:28.250]  Yes.
[01:28:28.550 --> 01:28:29.190]  That's really cool.
[01:28:30.590 --> 01:28:32.030]  Most of them I didn't deny.
[01:28:32.470 --> 01:28:34.070]  No, that's why I...
[01:28:34.070 --> 01:28:35.670]  Besides, I'm happy with that.
[01:28:35.870 --> 01:28:36.390]  But...
[01:28:36.390 --> 01:28:36.670]  But...
[01:28:36.670 --> 01:28:38.490]  My, um...
[01:28:38.490 --> 01:28:40.330]  This integrated existence is not quite...
[01:28:40.330 --> 01:28:41.210]  But for what?
[01:28:41.930 --> 01:28:42.450]  For...
[01:28:42.450 --> 01:28:43.130]  Yeah.
[01:28:44.030 --> 01:28:46.190]  But if you go up to one of those people and go...
[01:28:47.390 --> 01:28:47.790]  Uh...
[01:28:47.790 --> 01:28:48.610]  Hey, what?
[01:28:48.830 --> 01:28:49.630]  Who's Johnny Christmas?
[01:28:49.830 --> 01:28:51.070]  Oh, he's this cool guy.
[01:28:51.230 --> 01:28:51.930]  He's gonna make sure you retire.
[01:28:52.550 --> 01:28:53.430]  And he's really cool.
[01:28:53.550 --> 01:28:56.870]  And like, if you grill them for a specific...
[01:28:56.870 --> 01:28:57.010]  Oh.
[01:28:57.070 --> 01:28:57.170]  Yeah.
[01:28:57.390 --> 01:28:58.870]  Oh, you guys are trying to...
[01:29:06.390 --> 01:29:08.370]  So basically the whole point is...
[01:29:08.370 --> 01:29:09.730]  You're trying to get people involved.
[01:29:10.110 --> 01:29:11.690]  So that when they try to push...
[01:29:13.710 --> 01:29:14.050]  Yeah.
[01:29:14.050 --> 01:29:14.130]  Yeah.
[01:29:15.890 --> 01:29:16.230]  Yeah.
[01:29:17.970 --> 01:29:18.030]  Yeah.
[01:29:18.030 --> 01:29:18.070]  Yeah.
[01:29:18.110 --> 01:29:20.150]  But I'm just telling you, like...
[01:29:20.150 --> 01:29:21.790]  Somebody will get an email and say...
[01:29:21.790 --> 01:29:22.990]  Hey, once you're registered...
[01:29:22.990 --> 01:29:23.370]  Can you sign?
[01:29:23.730 --> 01:29:23.990]  Yeah.
[01:29:24.570 --> 01:29:25.530]  When we tell you...
[01:29:25.530 --> 01:29:26.150]  Hey, this is your ad.
[01:29:26.390 --> 01:29:27.150]  And, uh...
[01:29:32.530 --> 01:29:32.930]  I, uh...
[01:29:32.930 --> 01:29:33.450]  I, uh...
[01:29:33.450 --> 01:29:33.690]  I, uh...
[01:29:35.330 --> 01:29:36.050]  I, uh...
[01:29:36.050 --> 01:29:36.590]  And a kid...
[01:29:36.590 --> 01:29:37.370]  This is his first time here.
[01:29:37.510 --> 01:29:38.450]  And he comes up to me and he goes...
[01:29:38.450 --> 01:29:39.330]  And he goes...
[01:29:39.330 --> 01:29:39.730]  Merry Christmas.
[01:29:40.290 --> 01:29:40.450]  Yeah.
[01:29:40.650 --> 01:29:41.070]  And he goes...
[01:29:41.070 --> 01:29:41.830]  Happy Christmas.
[01:29:42.850 --> 01:29:43.830]  And I go...
[01:29:43.830 --> 01:29:44.930]  And, well, and I go...
[01:29:44.930 --> 01:29:45.430]  And it was...
[01:29:52.630 --> 01:29:53.130]  I think it's...
[01:29:53.130 --> 01:29:54.010]  I thought I was...
[01:29:54.530 --> 01:29:55.490]  I wear these hair.
[01:29:56.090 --> 01:29:57.290]  And he's like...
[01:29:57.290 --> 01:29:58.050]  That's correct.
[01:29:58.350 --> 01:29:58.750]  Well, yeah.
[01:29:59.350 --> 01:29:59.750]  And...
[01:29:59.750 --> 01:30:01.270]  And it's funny because if I don't...
[01:30:02.410 --> 01:30:03.030]  I don't know...
[01:30:03.030 --> 01:30:03.310]  But yeah.
[01:30:03.470 --> 01:30:03.750]  It's good to...
[01:30:03.750 --> 01:30:04.810]  I don't know.
[01:30:05.910 --> 01:30:06.630]  And one of...
[01:30:06.630 --> 01:30:07.310]  One of the...
[01:30:07.310 --> 01:30:08.390]  The other thing is like...
[01:30:08.390 --> 01:30:09.550]  We'll look at a lot.
[01:30:10.190 --> 01:30:10.590]  Absolutely.
[01:30:11.070 --> 01:30:12.090]  And that's what it is.
[01:30:12.130 --> 01:30:12.710]  It's projections.
[01:30:12.990 --> 01:30:13.170]  Yeah.
[01:30:13.470 --> 01:30:14.550]  And it fascinates me.
[01:30:14.870 --> 01:30:15.430]  And so anyway...
[01:30:15.430 --> 01:30:15.570]  Do you think it's too?
[01:30:15.830 --> 01:30:16.770]  Or do you like...
[01:30:18.430 --> 01:30:18.830]  Um...
[01:30:18.830 --> 01:30:19.430]  Do you think it's like...
[01:30:20.850 --> 01:30:21.250]  Uh...
[01:30:21.250 --> 01:30:21.410]  No.
[01:30:21.710 --> 01:30:22.930]  Because not a single...
[01:30:23.430 --> 01:30:23.830]  Nobody...
[01:30:23.830 --> 01:30:25.150]  What I've never done...
[01:30:25.150 --> 01:30:25.930]  To be in a social situation...
[01:30:26.830 --> 01:30:27.370]  I'm going to go...
[01:30:27.370 --> 01:30:27.430]  No.
[01:30:27.770 --> 01:30:29.190]  Is she going to?
[01:30:29.570 --> 01:30:30.390]  I have a channel.
[01:30:30.630 --> 01:30:30.970]  I have a channel.
[01:30:30.970 --> 01:30:31.190]  I have a channel.
[01:30:31.630 --> 01:30:31.950]  Is she your idea?
[01:30:32.690 --> 01:30:33.090]  No.
[01:30:33.290 --> 01:30:33.510]  No.
[01:30:34.330 --> 01:30:35.130]  And then what I...
[01:30:35.130 --> 01:30:35.790]  No.
[01:30:36.770 --> 01:30:37.390]  Because I'm not trained.
[01:30:45.950 --> 01:30:46.830]  Some of my...
[01:30:46.830 --> 01:30:48.030]  There's no way that's going to happen.
[01:30:48.330 --> 01:30:48.590]  Oh.
[01:30:49.830 --> 01:30:50.230]  Oh.
[01:30:50.230 --> 01:30:53.710]  We've got a couple of years.
[01:30:53.870 --> 01:30:53.950]  Right.
[01:30:55.490 --> 01:30:55.890]  So...
[01:30:57.290 --> 01:30:57.690]  Because...
[01:30:57.690 --> 01:30:58.290]  What if...
[01:30:58.290 --> 01:30:58.610]  Like...
[01:30:58.610 --> 01:31:00.090]  What if we know you for what I've done?
[01:31:00.090 --> 01:31:00.230]  Okay.
[01:31:08.480 --> 01:31:09.040]  So...
[01:31:09.040 --> 01:31:09.560]  Without there...
[01:31:12.780 --> 01:31:13.340]  No.
[01:31:13.980 --> 01:31:15.040]  I had...
[01:31:15.680 --> 01:31:16.240]  Sorry.
[01:31:16.540 --> 01:31:17.360]  I'm kicking you here.
[01:31:17.820 --> 01:31:18.380]  So...
[01:31:18.380 --> 01:31:18.660]  Yeah.
[01:31:19.560 --> 01:31:21.460]  I handed all these safety things.
[01:31:21.700 --> 01:31:21.800]  Like...
[01:31:21.800 --> 01:31:22.460]  T-shirts.
[01:31:22.800 --> 01:31:23.360]  Here.
[01:31:23.740 --> 01:31:24.960]  And people are going to meet.
[01:31:25.240 --> 01:31:26.580]  They might be around with me.
[01:31:26.580 --> 01:31:27.580]  And so now...
[01:31:28.140 --> 01:31:29.280]  You can keep an eye out for that.
[01:31:29.480 --> 01:31:32.680]  And then when you see a guy in this hot pink shirt with this gay abs label...
[01:31:32.680 --> 01:31:33.960]  You're going to go...
[01:31:33.960 --> 01:31:36.500]  And there's 85% chance...
[01:31:36.500 --> 01:31:37.660]  Of course, there's no white.
[01:31:37.900 --> 01:31:38.420]  That's true.
[01:31:38.680 --> 01:31:39.580]  But they're probably going...
[01:31:40.180 --> 01:31:40.940]  Ah, I know Johnny Christmas.
[01:31:41.200 --> 01:31:41.840]  He's a good guy.
[01:31:42.020 --> 01:31:42.320]  Yeah.
[01:31:42.840 --> 01:31:44.960]  So you can see this and just be more angry.
[01:31:44.960 --> 01:31:46.140]  I want to say...
[01:31:46.140 --> 01:31:48.020]  I'm glad I could be contributing going...
[01:31:48.020 --> 01:31:49.960]  I don't know Johnny Christmas at all, but...
[01:31:51.120 --> 01:31:52.280]  I'm mudding the waters.
[01:31:52.660 --> 01:31:53.700]  It is that part of the...
[01:31:53.700 --> 01:31:54.360]  I live...
[01:31:54.360 --> 01:31:54.950]  I live...
[01:31:55.980 --> 01:31:56.200]  Yeah.
[01:31:56.520 --> 01:31:57.100]  I was...
[01:31:57.100 --> 01:31:57.300]  Yeah.
[01:31:57.640 --> 01:31:58.480]  You've seen the shirts.
[01:31:58.940 --> 01:31:59.560]  The pink ones.
[01:31:59.720 --> 01:31:59.820]  Yeah.
[01:31:59.900 --> 01:32:00.840]  You've been down there all day.
[01:32:00.840 --> 01:32:01.360]  You've been down there.
[01:32:01.440 --> 01:32:01.500]  Yeah.
[01:32:01.920 --> 01:32:02.320]  Oh,
[01:32:07.100 --> 01:32:07.300]  okay.
[01:32:07.420 --> 01:32:07.560]  Oh.
[01:32:08.620 --> 01:32:08.840]  Oh.
[01:32:08.840 --> 01:32:09.360]  Glad to have you.
[01:32:12.100 --> 01:32:12.740]  Me too.
[01:32:13.100 --> 01:32:13.500]  Yes.
[01:32:13.640 --> 01:32:14.140]  I'll shake your hand.
[01:32:14.380 --> 01:32:14.740]  Oh.
[01:32:15.800 --> 01:32:16.520]  High five...
[01:32:16.520 --> 01:32:17.680]  And then I'll shake your hand.
[01:32:19.520 --> 01:32:19.780]  Oh.
[01:32:20.060 --> 01:32:20.460]  Oh!
[01:32:20.980 --> 01:32:21.320]  Oh!
[01:32:21.320 --> 01:32:21.380]  Oh!
[01:32:21.380 --> 01:32:21.460]  Oh!
[01:32:21.460 --> 01:32:21.500]  Oh!
[01:32:21.500 --> 01:32:21.540]  Oh!
[01:32:25.820 --> 01:32:26.380]  I know, right?
[01:32:26.740 --> 01:32:27.120]  Oh!
[01:32:27.460 --> 01:32:27.580]  Oh!
[01:32:28.040 --> 01:32:28.440]  Oh!
[01:32:28.440 --> 01:32:28.440]  I
[01:32:35.660 --> 01:33:09.640]  don't realize, you know, it's a side track.
[01:33:11.740 --> 01:33:12.060]  And, um...