[00:37.540 --> 00:38.840]  Hey, good afternoon.
[00:39.940 --> 00:40.840]  How you guys doing?
[00:42.380 --> 00:46.580]  I'm Weld Pond, associate with the L0pht.
[00:46.800 --> 00:50.780]  I was a participant in the MTV I Am A Hacker special.
[00:51.660 --> 00:52.740]  This is Tommy Pickles here.
[00:53.260 --> 00:55.520]  I'm Tommy Pickles from Moloch.org.
[00:55.760 --> 01:01.720]  And I kind of gave the idea and followed through on the True Life thing, so don't throw the cans and bottles yet.
[01:02.500 --> 01:07.840]  But basically, I know the whole behind the scenes fact of the MTV thing.
[01:08.900 --> 01:16.180]  So I'm going to talk about what it was like to be a participant in one of these wonderful hackers in front of the media.
[01:16.400 --> 01:22.660]  They try to document what it's all about and maybe put in some context with us some of the other things I've been involved in.
[01:23.580 --> 01:30.120]  Tommy has the inside scoop and he knows the most about it, so why don't you recap for people who didn't see it exactly how bad it was.
[01:30.120 --> 01:39.040]  Okay, basically, if anyone saw the travesty that MTV did put on, I no longer work for MTV, obviously, anymore.
[01:40.570 --> 01:49.050]  But basically, the show showcased three or so hackers, all teenagers, basically a True Life series on...
[01:49.600 --> 01:51.920]  It looked like a road rules of hacking, basically.
[01:52.220 --> 01:59.900]  And it was, you know, throw in the real world and whatever that show is on a night where everyone has sex with each other.
[01:59.900 --> 02:03.620]  It was basically... it was a horrible media-catching idea.
[02:05.540 --> 02:20.160]  The way it started, way back when, I guess it was a year and a half ago, correct me if I'm wrong, but there was a Miramax protest where we protested for the sake of Kevin Mitnick and the whole Takedown movie.
[02:21.300 --> 02:28.120]  Well, what happened was I went up to MTV and I said, I got an idea for a show here.
[02:28.320 --> 02:40.440]  Why don't we do a thing on Kevin Mitnick and show how they're really not paying attention to his rights at all, and kind of showcase the media in that aspect.
[02:40.640 --> 02:41.730]  So they started working on it.
[02:41.730 --> 02:43.800]  Now, I know Isaac was interviewed.
[02:44.140 --> 02:45.320]  A lot of us were interviewed.
[02:45.760 --> 02:47.960]  They even came to the 2600 meetings.
[02:49.040 --> 02:55.460]  They were really doing a good spot of covering government and hackers and the whole scene.
[02:56.970 --> 02:59.000]  But then it took a wrong turn.
[02:59.120 --> 03:00.620]  And I don't know who did this.
[03:02.060 --> 03:05.340]  I'm not... well, like, Serena Alchul was one of the people.
[03:06.100 --> 03:10.520]  Anthony Lappe, I think his last name is, was the other producer on it.
[03:10.520 --> 03:15.760]  They both somehow came up with this idea of dropping all the footage.
[03:16.600 --> 03:22.080]  They dropped the footage of all the well-known hackers in the scene, pretty much.
[03:22.700 --> 03:25.440]  L0pht had a 50-second spot.
[03:27.360 --> 03:28.960]  2600 didn't have anything.
[03:29.480 --> 03:33.980]  And pretty much, they were given credit at the end, which was funny.
[03:35.320 --> 03:36.980]  I didn't have a spot in it.
[03:37.180 --> 03:38.500]  It didn't bother me.
[03:39.540 --> 03:41.520]  Especially for what came out of it.
[03:43.020 --> 03:45.340]  And they didn't mention Kevin Mitnick at all.
[03:45.600 --> 03:47.980]  They had some real good footage, FBI footage.
[03:50.920 --> 03:53.290]  Basically, they took three hackers.
[03:54.040 --> 03:58.560]  Shamrock, Mantis, and Chameleon, if you know them.
[03:59.580 --> 04:01.790]  Two of them are not so well-known.
[04:01.940 --> 04:02.700]  They ran Parse.
[04:03.740 --> 04:07.290]  Chameleon, well-known for getting busted.
[04:09.530 --> 04:16.820]  But basically, what happened was Shamrock had this idea to fool MTV.
[04:19.640 --> 04:27.000]  He said that he was going to take this disc, hide it at a friend's place, go over there and lead MTV on a goose chase.
[04:27.120 --> 04:29.420]  And it was actually... it looked stupid on TV.
[04:29.440 --> 04:35.680]  But the day after, he gave this big public apology and said, I'm sorry, but I had to do it.
[04:35.680 --> 04:37.360]  It didn't go as far as he wanted to.
[04:37.480 --> 04:40.540]  He actually wanted to lead MTV all the way out to a parking lot.
[04:40.800 --> 04:43.360]  Like, you know, like out in some military base.
[04:43.540 --> 04:45.340]  Have all these white cars pull up.
[04:48.180 --> 04:51.920]  And, like, pretend he gets busted and make it a huge media event.
[04:51.920 --> 04:55.780]  Well, MTV wasn't willing to go to that length.
[04:55.980 --> 04:58.140]  They'd, like, stop following and go, this is crazy.
[04:59.670 --> 05:01.840]  So, they aired this product.
[05:01.880 --> 05:06.560]  I mean, it was just literally, like, you know, crap that was just, ugh.
[05:07.080 --> 05:08.300]  Like, big ball of crap.
[05:09.240 --> 05:10.660]  Shamrock puts out this apology.
[05:12.060 --> 05:15.640]  It gets re-aired after this apology.
[05:15.640 --> 05:22.460]  I mean, it's like, if I fall down off of this stage, I'm not going to play it over and over again.
[05:22.820 --> 05:24.340]  Because it's not going to get me ratings.
[05:25.100 --> 05:26.800]  So, basically, they did it, though.
[05:27.020 --> 05:30.360]  And I turned to Serena and I said, why did you play that?
[05:30.840 --> 05:32.740]  MTV is being made fools of.
[05:32.960 --> 05:34.880]  You just were basically lied to.
[05:35.220 --> 05:37.180]  And you're showing that, oh, we got caught.
[05:37.500 --> 05:38.400]  We've been lied to.
[05:38.480 --> 05:42.360]  And she said, no, he lied to all the hackers out there.
[05:45.140 --> 05:48.720]  So, basically, that's what wrapped up with the hacker show.
[05:49.140 --> 06:03.420]  And from my idea from a Takedown protest, turned into this MTV road rules, real world type of crap, and then put on MTV for everyone to see, that's what basically happened.
[06:05.360 --> 06:10.620]  Well, as a participant in the show, I would say we were pretty duped into what the whole thing was going to be about.
[06:10.620 --> 06:14.300]  And this isn't like... this wasn't our first documentary.
[06:14.700 --> 06:29.980]  The L0pht has been in five or six documentaries before, ranging from small things like Annalisa Savage's Unauthorized Access to things by the BBC, and recently one by A&E Networks on... they called it E-Terror.
[06:32.820 --> 06:40.460]  So, you know, we were pretty experienced with sussing out reporters before, and figuring out what the hell they were going to talk about.
[06:40.580 --> 06:44.800]  Because we don't want to be basically involved in a show that's just all about criminal behavior.
[06:45.400 --> 06:55.340]  You know, we want people to really understand the message of what hacking is all about, of questioning technology, and exploring, and a lot of things that motivate us.
[06:59.780 --> 07:12.960]  So, what we did was, which we do with a lot of these media things, is we try to interview the producers, the writers, before the thing happens, and try to figure out what their message is.
[07:12.960 --> 07:22.080]  And I actually got an email, I think I have the quote here, from Anthony Lappe, who is one of the producers.
[07:22.560 --> 07:26.560]  And this is how he started out, like, what they were going to do with the show.
[07:26.960 --> 07:32.980]  He said, quote, our goal is to give a balanced and informed look at hackers and hacker culture.
[07:35.220 --> 07:39.580]  So, if anyone was more informed about this, it was definitely MTV.
[07:39.980 --> 07:44.420]  You know, I think Emmanuel and a lot of the other 2600 people spent days talking with them.
[07:44.660 --> 07:56.460]  I know we spent a full day at the L0pht, showing them about hacker culture, what we do, and they basically chose to completely ignore it.
[07:56.460 --> 08:02.320]  I mean, it's practically criminal that they just completely ignored reality.
[08:02.580 --> 08:04.160]  And they call it a documentary.
[08:04.500 --> 08:05.780]  It's supposed to be a documentary.
[08:05.820 --> 08:13.100]  So, when you go out and research something, and you find out facts, and then you just completely ignore them and slant the story.
[08:13.440 --> 08:15.080]  You know, it's basically lying and fraud.
[08:18.220 --> 08:24.940]  So, some of the stuff we talked about them with was a lot of things we play with at the L0pht.
[08:25.220 --> 08:36.160]  We talked about a lot of our hardware hacking, like with mobile data terminals and packet radio, reverse engineering, modifying cell phones, pack pagers.
[08:36.780 --> 08:41.310]  We talked about some of the tools we had written in L0phtcrack to expose vulnerabilities.
[08:42.340 --> 08:44.520]  And basically, they ignored that.
[08:44.740 --> 08:53.210]  The 50 second clip they had of us, which was a lot more than they did for the 2600 people who I think spent a lot more time with them.
[08:55.460 --> 09:08.410]  Basically, I think the clip showed me playing with my laptop connected to a scanner, showing them how you could intercept the ACARS traffic and watch the locations of the planes coming in and out of the airport.
[09:08.930 --> 09:15.120]  And then, they thought it was a big deal that we could tune into Bosnian radio over our short wave.
[09:16.880 --> 09:20.170]  You know, so, they were very, very clueless.
[09:20.790 --> 09:21.880]  Completely clueless.
[09:22.170 --> 09:30.690]  And sometimes, no matter how much education you try to do, if the people are dumb, it just doesn't matter.
[09:30.690 --> 09:33.120]  You know, I mean, some people just don't get it.
[09:33.210 --> 09:36.600]  And no matter what we did, it seemed like they just couldn't get it.
[09:36.650 --> 09:44.860]  Even though, in their mind, they thought they were being balanced and they were going to be informed because they had some idea that that's what journalists are supposed to do.
[09:44.860 --> 09:49.670]  They just didn't seem to have the capability of understanding.
[09:49.980 --> 09:54.600]  And if the person can't understand, then you're sunk.
[09:56.810 --> 10:00.190]  So, you know, we find this all the time with the media.
[10:00.720 --> 10:03.100]  A lot of times, they just can't understand.
[10:03.480 --> 10:05.720]  And after, like, doing these things for...
[10:05.720 --> 10:10.830]  Especially this latest MTV thing, I've been kind of jaded about it.
[10:12.620 --> 10:17.070]  But I think there are things we can do to...
[10:17.070 --> 10:33.830]  Because a lot of the reasons that we... at the L0pht, we want to do these things besides, like, the fun and glory of being on MTV, is because we actually think that we're going to educate, like, young and impressionable people about reality, as opposed to yet another story about,
[10:33.830 --> 10:39.500]  you know, someone's idea of hackers actually educating them to the reality of it.
[10:39.710 --> 10:44.310]  And it never seems to work very well.
[10:48.190 --> 10:54.100]  So, I think that people in the hacker community have to just basically go outside the media in a lot of ways.
[10:54.100 --> 11:00.340]  And I think what 2600 is doing with Freedom Downtime is exactly the right thing to do.
[11:00.600 --> 11:04.960]  I mean, it's hard and it costs money, but it's really the only way to do some of these things.
[11:05.150 --> 11:10.740]  And that's one of the reasons we started HNN, Hacker News Network, was to have an alternative voice.
[11:11.100 --> 11:14.480]  And with the technology today, it's easy to have that alternative voice.
[11:14.650 --> 11:19.760]  And attrition.org does a great job of having that alternative voice and debunking all the media stuff.
[11:22.890 --> 11:27.680]  So, I think those are the things that, you know, this MTV type thing is just going to continue to happen.
[11:28.100 --> 11:30.170]  It was really funny, too.
[11:30.340 --> 11:33.120]  I hate to interject, but the...
[11:33.540 --> 11:39.440]  It was entertaining, the fact that MTV actually listened to what people were saying on the outside, too.
[11:39.600 --> 11:45.880]  Because when the show finally went into this produced kind of thing and they showed it to me, what did I do?
[11:45.880 --> 11:51.150]  I went and blabbed my big mouth to every hacker I knew and said, oh, my God, did you see this thing?
[11:51.260 --> 11:51.880]  Oh, my God.
[11:53.110 --> 12:00.500]  And I went to DEFCON last year and I talked to the parse guys and said, you know what they're showing?
[12:00.740 --> 12:03.500]  You know, you guys are the, like, headliners and you look like crap.
[12:03.920 --> 12:09.320]  And I called off the hook all the time, too, giving updates, saying, hey, you know what they're doing, whatever like that.
[12:09.320 --> 12:16.420]  It came back to, like, you know, like my desk saying, you know, you're talking shit about the show?
[12:16.740 --> 12:18.060]  Yeah, it's crap.
[12:18.680 --> 12:20.700]  What came out was just like this...
[12:20.700 --> 12:26.080]  It was this vehicle for, like, the teeny bopper kids who could now say, oh, I saw the Matrix.
[12:26.560 --> 12:27.980]  I saw the MTV thing.
[12:28.150 --> 12:29.080]  I think I'm cool.
[12:29.220 --> 12:33.790]  I'm going to get me a computer and my AOL account and steal credit card numbers.
[12:36.170 --> 12:41.480]  It's basically come to that vehicle with MTV where everything is sensationalism or shock value.
[12:41.790 --> 12:47.840]  I mean, basically, this is one reason why the show does do, like, these sex in the 90s programs.
[12:47.840 --> 12:51.920]  And you could see two pimp daddies go on the town and score with some young girls and shit.
[12:52.300 --> 12:54.480]  It's just... it turns into that mentality.
[12:54.480 --> 13:04.420]  So, doing a computer show on a network like that, it was a lose-lose situation no matter which way you looked at it.
[13:04.620 --> 13:11.410]  So, basically, I don't think that they ever planned to do something smart.
[13:12.340 --> 13:14.480]  Actually, they wanted to generate revenue.
[13:14.540 --> 13:17.220]  And that's the only reason that they actually did it.
[13:18.380 --> 13:18.980]  Yeah, definitely.
[13:23.120 --> 13:31.180]  So, I don't know if I have much more to say if you guys have questions about doing these media things.
[13:32.240 --> 13:34.170]  Yeah, we have a question back there.
[13:35.590 --> 13:39.240]  You want to step up to the microphone so we can all hear you?
[13:44.180 --> 13:53.620]  I don't really think that you should trust any of the TV media because, as you see what happened with MTV, they totally ruined the story and they made it look like all crap.
[13:53.860 --> 14:12.320]  But when you look at, like, the newspapers, like New York Times when they supported the DeCSS and everything, I think you should look into other forms of media, like newspapers and radios, which actually don't actually stretch out the truth or don't censor anything to that extent that TV does.
[14:12.320 --> 14:25.700]  And since they're not that big of a corporation, well, New York Times probably, yeah, but they still, they still, it's like a company which actually allows you to say things truthfully.
[14:25.900 --> 14:32.780]  But, like, like all the news channels, like Fox 5 or whatever, they censor a lot of the stuff out.
[14:32.940 --> 14:40.300]  Like, some specials you see on the news, they're like really, they're either boring or totally fictional.
[14:40.300 --> 14:44.180]  It's like a science fiction movie you could watch any time, like in late at night.
[14:45.760 --> 14:53.500]  Yeah, there's definitely a whole spectrum out there of, you know, people who are actually real journalists and then there's things that are just sensationalized.
[14:53.600 --> 14:59.740]  And it's really scary, the amount of stuff out there which is just sensationalized stuff that they pretend they're real journalists.
[14:59.860 --> 15:12.060]  Some of the better things that we've been involved with before was the BBC, or like we did interviews with the Jim Lehrer News Hour.
[15:12.360 --> 15:15.820]  You know, these are like credible, credible journalists.
[15:16.020 --> 15:18.060]  And most of the time in the newspaper it's the same way.
[15:18.140 --> 15:22.440]  I don't know what we were thinking of being involved with MTV, but that won't happen again.
[15:22.660 --> 15:25.100]  It's like talking to a British tablet reporter.
[15:25.100 --> 15:31.560]  They're always going to take down something and going to make it into something you never even thought would be even possible.
[15:31.780 --> 15:33.620]  Like, for instance, what happened with the MTV thing.
[15:34.020 --> 15:34.140]  Yep.
[15:35.940 --> 15:36.420]  Thank you.
[15:36.820 --> 15:37.760]  Any more questions?
[15:39.120 --> 15:39.760]  Back there.
[15:44.740 --> 15:47.900]  I don't have cable, so I never got to see the MTV thing.
[15:48.120 --> 15:50.000]  But I was wondering if like...
[15:50.000 --> 15:50.660]  Oh, here you go.
[15:51.580 --> 15:52.240]  I'm sorry.
[15:52.440 --> 15:56.720]  I was wondering if there'd be any chance that you guys could show it at the conference for people who missed out.
[15:56.720 --> 15:58.440]  Um, it is possible.
[15:58.680 --> 16:00.480]  I'm not really sure you'd want to see it.
[16:00.500 --> 16:01.040]  I'm telling you.
[16:01.140 --> 16:02.560]  It's like watching a car wreck.
[16:02.760 --> 16:03.300]  I mean...
[16:04.760 --> 16:05.160]  It's...
[16:06.080 --> 16:06.480]  It's...
[16:06.480 --> 16:07.740]  It's really bad.
[16:07.740 --> 16:07.820]  It's really bad.
[16:07.980 --> 16:12.720]  I mean, if you take out the commercials, you got 20 minutes of like, you know, the worst...
[16:13.340 --> 16:14.780]  I mean, it just gets you angry.
[16:15.100 --> 16:21.860]  If you want to go beat the shit out of somebody, I recommend watching it because it's going to get you so angry at how they portray.
[16:21.860 --> 16:22.300]  Like...
[16:22.300 --> 16:22.700]  Yeah.
[16:22.700 --> 16:29.800]  Now, like whenever you say the word hacker to somebody, I mean, like my mom knows like, ooh, I'm in the computer underground or whatever.
[16:30.440 --> 16:30.960]  But...
[16:30.960 --> 16:31.420]  It's a buzzword.
[16:31.420 --> 16:34.440]  To give you an example of like one of the segments they had...
[16:34.440 --> 16:39.660]  Mantis was showing how he had the Matrix on his laptop.
[16:39.660 --> 16:41.300]  And that he could play...
[16:41.300 --> 16:43.580]  He downloaded it and he could play it.
[16:44.100 --> 16:45.160]  You know, I mean, it was just like...
[16:45.160 --> 16:46.020]  He downloaded the Matrix?
[16:46.380 --> 16:51.840]  He downloaded the Matrix and he was playing it and Serena was like, ooh, that is so cool that you can do that.
[16:52.000 --> 16:55.400]  Like, he is so elite and skilled that he can like, click on a URL.
[16:56.780 --> 16:57.660]  You know, that...
[16:57.660 --> 16:58.500]  I mean, that is...
[16:58.500 --> 16:59.600]  And that's not the low point.
[16:59.740 --> 17:00.650]  I mean, that's basically...
[17:01.340 --> 17:04.740]  You know, that was one segment of what was exciting.
[17:04.740 --> 17:21.380]  And then, Serena, like, at the very end of the show, I think she had her caps lock key stuck, and she was trying to log into AOL, and she said that her account had been hacked, and she actually sent email asking for advice on what she should do.
[17:21.550 --> 17:24.140]  Wait, how does she send email if she can't get into AOL?
[17:24.990 --> 17:25.940]  That's a good question.
[17:26.220 --> 17:34.010]  Well, Serena used to call me all the time as her resident helper computer thing.
[17:35.800 --> 17:37.100]  She's a good friend of mine.
[17:37.240 --> 17:38.220]  I talked to her.
[17:38.400 --> 17:39.860]  I have no qualms with her.
[17:40.030 --> 17:44.440]  It's just the way she runs her business, the way MTV runs its business.
[17:44.680 --> 17:56.680]  But she was that ignorant where she would always say, oh, a computer hacker must have broken my computer because I produced this segment, so they're all after me.
[17:57.160 --> 18:01.970]  Which, I mean, MTV's network is pretty secure alone.
[18:02.230 --> 18:04.400]  I mean, MTV runs a really secure network.
[18:06.510 --> 18:06.960]  But...
[18:06.960 --> 18:07.760]  And they use AOL?
[18:08.160 --> 18:10.440]  Yeah, they let them go out on AOL clients, though.
[18:10.990 --> 18:12.380]  Personal AOL counts.
[18:12.540 --> 18:13.880]  It's not what they use for mail.
[18:14.080 --> 18:14.210]  Yeah.
[18:14.340 --> 18:15.920]  That's how she's able to send mail.
[18:16.200 --> 18:20.730]  But she is that wow-able, I would say.
[18:20.860 --> 18:30.990]  I don't know another word that, like, excitable about things like watching the matrix on your laptop or cruising around with shamrock in his car as he listens to police frequencies on his scanner.
[18:30.990 --> 18:31.560]  Ooh.
[18:32.730 --> 18:37.340]  Boy, you know, like, you'd think these people never heard of Radio Shack before, so...
[18:38.580 --> 18:41.440]  Alright, and I also had one comment on the last comment.
[18:42.180 --> 18:50.440]  You can't really generalize that all TV media is bad and all newspaper media is good, because, like, look at John Markoff.
[18:50.600 --> 18:51.800]  He works for the New York Times.
[18:51.800 --> 18:53.380]  I don't think...
[18:53.380 --> 18:54.360]  I don't think we actually said that.
[18:54.680 --> 18:54.840]  Yeah.
[18:55.560 --> 18:58.320]  No, no, I'm just saying what the kid was saying.
[18:58.460 --> 18:58.800]  Oh, sure.
[18:59.320 --> 19:01.080]  TV media can be bad.
[19:01.230 --> 19:06.280]  I recently did a thing with my group with NBC4 here in the city with Chuck Scarborough.
[19:06.620 --> 19:11.660]  And we sat for, like, two, three hours with him talking about serious issues.
[19:12.020 --> 19:20.780]  And the only pieces that they put on TV of us is the fact that I got busted and another member of our group also broke into a system.
[19:20.780 --> 19:23.680]  And they used that as the sensational part of it.
[19:23.880 --> 19:25.800]  They did a spin on it, though.
[19:25.940 --> 19:31.960]  They said we were hackers working in the sector as white hat people.
[19:32.180 --> 19:35.900]  In the past, we were black hat, but now we've corrected ourselves.
[19:36.120 --> 19:38.300]  Which was totally wrong to say about us anyway.
[19:38.460 --> 19:40.780]  They made a broad generalization of what we do.
[19:41.020 --> 19:46.920]  But they didn't smear us, but it showed that the media is out there to get one thing and one thing only.
[19:47.460 --> 19:49.360]  The fact that people are going to watch it.
[19:49.360 --> 19:51.860]  And it was put on during sweeps week, by the way.
[19:52.120 --> 19:54.730]  So it shows you what the media's plan was.
[19:54.900 --> 19:56.840]  Do you think the media will ever get it right?
[19:57.760 --> 19:58.100]  No.
[19:58.820 --> 19:59.200]  No.
[19:59.340 --> 19:59.520]  No.
[20:00.260 --> 20:01.960]  I don't think they can really understand.
[20:02.300 --> 20:03.700]  They just... I don't think they understand.
[20:03.700 --> 20:09.560]  That's why we have to tell the story, like, with our own voice, without their filter on it.
[20:11.460 --> 20:16.230]  And if there's anyone out there, since I'm up here, I'm not going to provocate it.
[20:16.420 --> 20:24.490]  But if someone wants to actually encode the MTV show and throw a link up, we'll link it to our page.
[20:24.920 --> 20:28.620]  But I'm not going to put it up, since there could be legal problems with that.
[20:31.930 --> 20:32.450]  Yeah.
[20:32.730 --> 20:33.030]  Question?
[20:34.310 --> 20:35.130]  Could you...
[20:35.130 --> 20:35.710]  Sorry.
[20:36.250 --> 20:40.370]  Could you comment on John Vranesevich's role as technical consultant for the program?
[20:43.910 --> 20:46.770]  Well, again, the MTV people were ignorant and duped.
[20:48.430 --> 20:49.030]  I don't know.
[20:49.090 --> 20:50.170]  Maybe you can comment on that more.
[20:52.210 --> 21:00.710]  I'm not going to name-smear, but MTV kind of grabbed the people who are out there in the media, I think.
[21:01.310 --> 21:06.650]  And JP is one of the people who's out there in the media pretty widely.
[21:08.830 --> 21:13.290]  So I feel that's the only reason that he got on there, whether or not he did a good job.
[21:14.010 --> 21:15.910]  He really sussed out that Shamrock deal.
[21:16.450 --> 21:16.970]  Yeah.
[21:17.330 --> 21:17.970]  I mean, like...
[21:19.610 --> 21:23.750]  I just... I don't understand even people who would...
[21:23.750 --> 21:30.170]  It just looks so cheesy, some guy standing up against a blue screen, pretty much, and, like, lecturing about security.
[21:30.390 --> 21:31.790]  I mean, it seems so Hollywood.
[21:32.190 --> 21:37.190]  So I really don't have a good comment about it, so I'll leave it at that.
[21:39.090 --> 21:40.370]  There's a question in the back there?
[21:40.730 --> 21:42.170]  Let me mention one thing quickly.
[21:43.210 --> 21:58.070]  Regarding the Times comment, what you have to keep in mind is that Anthony LePay, who was the fellow who kind of, I assume, was called in for this or somehow related, I don't even know how he got related, did a piece for the Times in which he interviewed three hackers,
[21:58.450 --> 22:01.530]  two of which were Shamrock and Mantis.
[22:02.470 --> 22:10.750]  So he's already been in print with these particular individuals, which is why I think he approached them for this show when they decided to scrap all the rest of this stuff that we gave them.
[22:11.310 --> 22:11.750]  And it was like...
[22:11.750 --> 22:20.770]  It's interesting you mention this guy because before we, you know, got involved in this, I did a little research just to see, like, is there any real journalism behind this thing?
[22:20.770 --> 22:30.830]  And the guy, you know, he has a degree from Columbia School of Journalism, he's written specials for the New York Times, so it's like, well, he must be a real journalist.
[22:31.350 --> 22:33.710]  But, you know, you just can't really tell what's going to happen.
[22:33.710 --> 22:37.010]  And Serena is actually very well voiced also.
[22:37.230 --> 22:41.130]  She's won awards when she was, like, 14 for news agencies out in California.
[22:41.510 --> 22:53.290]  So, I mean, they're pretty good reporters before they came to this thing, but, I mean, you're looking at a channel that was all music, and then started putting shows on because they had to put some filler.
[22:53.410 --> 22:56.450]  Oh, my God, not enough music, let's put real world.
[22:56.450 --> 23:00.510]  I mean, it's just, it's become that engine, and what do they do after that?
[23:00.630 --> 23:07.910]  They spin it off and make M2, which you can only get on satellite now, but what about MTV?
[23:08.070 --> 23:08.610]  No music?
[23:08.750 --> 23:09.310]  You know, an hour?
[23:09.610 --> 23:16.370]  Actually, MTV does play music between 8 and 10 in the morning, but then it's, like, beach MTV or whatever the hell it is.
[23:16.490 --> 23:16.750]  I don't know.
[23:17.210 --> 23:17.930]  Do you have a question there?
[23:18.550 --> 23:25.690]  I think that the generalization that all TV media is bad is kind of bad generalization.
[23:26.790 --> 23:31.090]  It's most... I would actually... this is also a little generalizing.
[23:31.370 --> 23:42.410]  It mostly happens in the United States because you have the giant media conglomerates who, of course, their sole reason for being is to make money.
[23:42.630 --> 23:47.710]  The only way they can get money is by getting, like, you know, the little people to watch.
[23:48.110 --> 23:51.350]  Not little people as in kids, but... or dwarves.
[23:55.630 --> 23:57.210]  Move for my mouse!
[24:02.530 --> 24:14.090]  But some... in a lot of European and foreign countries, it's state media, which a lot of times is bad too, but it's mostly about just journalism.
[24:14.090 --> 24:17.630]  No, the state media, you're absolutely correct.
[24:17.790 --> 24:30.650]  And some of the shows that we've been involved in with the BBC, where they did a history of the internet, CBC did a show on privacy, which is a Canadian broadcasting company, and then things we've done for the Jim Lehrer News Hour on PBS.
[24:31.030 --> 24:35.290]  It seems like the state-run stuff is actually more truthful.
[24:35.290 --> 24:35.730]  Yeah.
[24:37.110 --> 24:41.370]  Also in the US, you do have a lot of government involvement in the media.
[24:41.830 --> 24:45.830]  So you do have the government kind of rubber stamping things.
[24:47.030 --> 24:58.690]  Yes, in state-owned media you do, but there isn't that whole big thing where the US, like, you know, Canada, isn't pretending to be, like, the policeman of the world.
[25:00.070 --> 25:03.830]  So they really don't have that fear.
[25:05.290 --> 25:15.390]  Also, a lot of other countries, like the US, has the biggest incarceration rate in the world because of laws like that and paranoia like that.
[25:16.550 --> 25:17.110]  That's it.
[25:17.250 --> 25:17.390]  Okay.
[25:17.870 --> 25:18.010]  Thanks.
[25:20.510 --> 25:20.970]  Okay.
[25:21.630 --> 25:26.110]  A lot of people are saying that this is all the media's fault for getting the whole hacker thing wrong.
[25:26.430 --> 25:33.350]  You've got a bunch of 14-year-old kids calling themselves hackers, going with this whole image, and giving the media this image.
[25:33.350 --> 25:35.050]  I'm just looking at the MTV special.
[25:35.230 --> 25:38.310]  This kid, Mantis, is calling himself a hacker for downloading the Matrix.
[25:38.970 --> 25:44.970]  He's not a hacker, but how is the media supposed to know when the whole hacker community can't define what is really a hacker?
[25:45.330 --> 25:46.710]  Is it somebody who breaks into systems?
[25:46.790 --> 25:48.710]  Is it somebody who just dyes their hair different colors?
[25:49.990 --> 25:51.230]  Is it somebody who's technical?
[25:51.450 --> 25:53.770]  Is it somebody who can figure out some of your room sets now?
[25:55.870 --> 25:56.470]  Sit down!
[25:56.470 --> 25:57.370]  Why do you blame the media?
[25:57.590 --> 26:00.770]  Figure out what you are going to define to be a hacker?
[26:00.950 --> 26:06.230]  And are you going to let these kids go around calling themselves hackers when they're just downloading scripts?
[26:06.410 --> 26:11.510]  Well, I think what we're doing here is talking about how, you know, these people were called hackers by someone else.
[26:11.610 --> 26:14.250]  We don't have control over who MTV calls hackers.
[26:14.250 --> 26:20.670]  We spent, 2600 spent days, and I know the law spent a few days informing these people.
[26:20.830 --> 26:25.310]  But we can't, you know, we don't have strings that can control them what they say a hacker is.
[26:25.470 --> 26:29.210]  All we can do is try to tell people what the real story is.
[26:29.310 --> 26:33.970]  But the problem is that the media can make a decision to not listen to us.
[26:33.970 --> 26:43.270]  So that's why I was saying earlier that we have to do our own media, like with stuff like with, you know, Freedom Downtime, Attrition.org, Hacker News Network.
[26:43.830 --> 26:44.950]  We need more of that.
[26:45.050 --> 26:45.950]  And you're right.
[26:46.190 --> 26:53.670]  But, you know, there's not really much we can do when a place like MTV decides to slant the story one way.
[26:53.850 --> 26:56.430]  You know, what control do we have over who they call hackers?
[26:56.430 --> 27:08.750]  Well, what you can do is denounce it as you're doing and as Attrition does, but also bring up the point that if Script Kitty is going out there calling themselves a hacker and they're not, denounce that also.
[27:08.970 --> 27:09.790]  We're going to hunt them down.
[27:10.050 --> 27:10.630]  Hunt them down.
[27:17.610 --> 27:25.590]  Has the law after 2600 ever thought about suing MTV for libel in a class action lawsuit in terms of, you know, destroying the truth?
[27:26.770 --> 27:27.630]  You can't do it.
[27:27.790 --> 27:28.990]  I don't know if you can do that.
[27:29.190 --> 27:29.270]  Yeah.
[27:29.490 --> 27:29.870]  You can't do it.
[27:29.910 --> 27:30.570]  They didn't libel us.
[27:30.690 --> 27:31.370]  They didn't libel.
[27:32.030 --> 27:35.130]  I mean, if it's an error of omission, there's very little you can do.
[27:35.510 --> 27:39.470]  You know, if they have facts and they choose not to report them, that's bad journalism.
[27:39.690 --> 27:40.290]  It's not illegal.
[27:42.890 --> 27:54.010]  One of the things I've learned besides MTV's fleet of lawyers, and I mean fleet, they, it's not like they call up somebody like Schumann and Schumann and, hello, we need to sue somebody.
[27:54.010 --> 27:56.110]  They have a whole floor of lawyers.
[27:56.470 --> 28:04.810]  So it's not like even if you wanted to battle an engine like that, I mean, you might have a chance, you know, but literally it's, it would be hard.
[28:05.350 --> 28:11.430]  The other issue is there's a difference between media as in an MTV or media as in news.
[28:11.970 --> 28:15.010]  Media as in MTV is an entertainment company.
[28:15.550 --> 28:16.750]  News is news.
[28:17.210 --> 28:19.330]  That's a state run type of project.
[28:19.330 --> 28:25.590]  So if someone interviews you on the news, like Hillbilly Bob, and your neighbor gets hit by a car, boom.
[28:26.030 --> 28:28.270]  Oh, I told them to get hit by a car.
[28:28.430 --> 28:30.890]  And you look stupid as hell with your pants down.
[28:31.070 --> 28:34.350]  They could broadcast all they want because it's news worthy.
[28:34.990 --> 28:37.510]  But the problem with MTV is it's entertainment.
[28:37.850 --> 28:43.430]  So therefore they have lawyers and they have all these contracts that you sign when you participate in a certain act.
[28:43.430 --> 28:45.410]  Because they have, they get paid for it.
[28:45.630 --> 28:47.090]  It's a money making engine.
[28:47.570 --> 28:53.870]  Yeah, the difference between news and entertainment is whether you really, like even documentaries are entertainment in a lot of ways.
[28:53.990 --> 28:59.150]  If you've ever been interviewed by a real news organization, you don't have to sign a release form.
[28:59.370 --> 29:01.610]  If it's real news, there's no release form.
[29:01.730 --> 29:03.310]  They have a right to tell that story.
[29:03.570 --> 29:09.090]  If it's something which is entertainment, you'll have to sign a release saying it's okay to use my image.
[29:09.090 --> 29:10.830]  And that's really the difference.
[29:11.030 --> 29:13.830]  There's actually very little real news in this world.
[29:14.330 --> 29:15.570]  Most of it is entertainment.
[29:16.930 --> 29:17.570]  Go ahead.
[29:18.070 --> 29:25.470]  One of the disadvantages that any subculture or group or political organization is going to face is misrepresentation in news media.
[29:26.190 --> 29:37.830]  The reason that MTV is going to show only certain segments of a quote unquote hacker or any other subculture is that that's going to be what people are interested in seeing.
[29:37.830 --> 29:43.390]  People watch Dateline NBC and MTV specials because it's interesting.
[29:43.950 --> 29:45.050]  It's something that they don't understand.
[29:45.410 --> 29:53.270]  But to show what a hacker truly is or what any sociopolitical group actually is, it's going to be pretty boring and it isn't media savvy.
[29:55.710 --> 30:02.410]  If any one group wants to change its image and improve it, you have to make what you're doing sexier so that that is interesting.
[30:04.150 --> 30:05.910]  Make people actually care.
[30:06.090 --> 30:06.630]  Say again?
[30:06.730 --> 30:07.810]  You're saying altar tops?
[30:10.030 --> 30:10.870]  I'll do it.
[30:10.930 --> 30:11.910]  I'll tuck this thing up.
[30:13.390 --> 30:26.490]  No, just the average person on the street that does not have any interest in the internals of Unix or network security isn't going to understand what people do on a day-to-day basis that do hack systems or hack code.
[30:26.490 --> 30:31.430]  What you have to do is you have to make it real to them and show them their vulnerabilities of doing things like online banking.
[30:31.590 --> 30:42.690]  Show how the stuff that we're dealing with actually affects their lives and information that we have to give in the way that we explore and we sort of are a counterbalance against like proprietary systems and technology.
[30:42.970 --> 30:47.630]  Show how what we're doing actually affects their general lives.
[30:47.730 --> 30:49.610]  That they really need people like us.
[30:49.610 --> 30:52.250]  And they need people to question their systems.
[30:52.490 --> 31:01.270]  One of the caveats to that is if you're showing the vulnerabilities of these systems, you're not showing... the people aren't going to say, oh, well, we need to get you to help us get rid of these.
[31:01.630 --> 31:05.770]  They're then vilified as being evil for having this information.
[31:06.230 --> 31:06.630]  Well...
[31:06.630 --> 31:10.070]  Despite the fact that the government has this information and has the ability to do all these things as well.
[31:10.070 --> 31:10.950]  It isn't always that.
[31:11.170 --> 31:17.530]  A lot of it is privacy related stuff where when you expose these privacy issues, you're not the bad guy either.
[31:17.530 --> 31:19.870]  So, I mean, there's an aspect to that too.
[31:20.070 --> 31:30.370]  Well, I think in the popular culture is going to be like if I show my mom that I can sniff her password as she's typing in her information on online banking, she's going to freak out.
[31:30.630 --> 31:40.270]  But if I show her these are the steps you need to make to do to make sure that that doesn't happen and then show her that it is possible, it's better.
[31:40.430 --> 31:44.390]  It's just a different spin on how you disseminate information out there.
[31:45.850 --> 31:46.330]  Thanks.
[31:50.620 --> 31:52.200]  Preface this with saying I'm an outsider.
[31:52.360 --> 31:53.080]  I don't know Shamrock.
[31:53.220 --> 31:57.340]  I don't really know any of the people that produced PARSE or if it's still around or producing it now.
[31:57.960 --> 32:02.880]  But I do believe that we need these kind of outlets that the technology is enabling us to do this.
[32:02.880 --> 32:18.740]  My question or comment is I felt sick to my stomach when I saw the thing, but the thing that I felt worse about was one of the lines in the van, I got into hacking for all the wrong reasons, and how I hold Shamrock personally responsible for a lot of this.
[32:19.680 --> 32:20.960]  I know you were being a little easier.
[32:21.060 --> 32:22.960]  We don't have to dog anybody out.
[32:23.080 --> 32:32.680]  But, you know, was he there to really lead them on a chase or was he there to promote PARSE and when things went bad, he tried to, you know, have this alibi.
[32:32.680 --> 32:36.640]  And I don't think we should, you know, PARSE could have been really great.
[32:36.840 --> 32:38.460]  They had the viewership.
[32:38.540 --> 32:42.400]  I didn't really think they had a lot of content that I was interested in.
[32:42.400 --> 32:44.380]  But I was supporting them.
[32:44.580 --> 32:46.040]  And we had links on our page.
[32:46.160 --> 32:47.960]  And we were like, wow, these guys are really doing stuff.
[32:48.020 --> 32:48.640]  They have a budget.
[32:48.740 --> 32:49.580]  They got camera crews.
[32:49.940 --> 32:57.200]  And then all of a sudden, you know, because they did something that we rail against, they became hypocrites and they lost all of that.
[32:57.300 --> 33:01.680]  So this one avenue that we had or outlet, you know, self-destructed.
[33:02.120 --> 33:07.160]  And I'm not sure if you know anything about what happened, but I don't buy it personally.
[33:09.180 --> 33:12.660]  I know Shamrock and I've hung out with Shamrock.
[33:12.920 --> 33:18.000]  And I'm not going to slander in any way the guy.
[33:18.460 --> 33:22.900]  But we were supposed to attend Freak Nick last year together.
[33:23.420 --> 33:26.320]  And he was going to fly down with me and he just flaked.
[33:27.120 --> 33:30.280]  You know, somehow he got up late or something like that and missed his flight.
[33:30.940 --> 33:36.340]  I met the show's producer down there who interviewed me and also asked me if I wanted a job.
[33:38.320 --> 33:40.220]  His job was in jeopardy then.
[33:40.600 --> 33:45.780]  And if you've seen Parse towards the end, Shamrock was no longer a member of Parse.
[33:45.900 --> 33:48.400]  It was, forgive me, I don't know her name.
[33:48.420 --> 33:49.940]  And if she's here, I feel really bad.
[33:50.100 --> 33:51.080]  But someone else knew.
[33:51.420 --> 33:52.100]  Excuse me?
[33:52.300 --> 33:53.220]  You mind if I crash?
[33:53.420 --> 33:53.560]  Yeah.
[33:53.800 --> 33:53.980]  Thanks.
[33:56.720 --> 33:57.160]  Streak.
[33:58.200 --> 33:58.640]  Hi.
[33:59.740 --> 34:00.620]  Is this one even live?
[34:01.480 --> 34:02.360]  No, it's not live.
[34:02.480 --> 34:02.940]  There it goes.
[34:03.680 --> 34:08.320]  Yeah, in regards to the second generation of Parse, I was actually guessed twice.
[34:08.540 --> 34:09.120]  Her name is Ellen.
[34:09.720 --> 34:10.000]  Thank you.
[34:10.280 --> 34:15.680]  And unfortunately, I think the damage was done at that point.
[34:16.780 --> 34:17.220]  Where...
[34:17.220 --> 34:19.200]  Now, granted, they're not the only media outlet.
[34:19.200 --> 34:22.540]  You can hear me on Off the Hook, Tuesday nights at 8 on WBAI.
[34:26.060 --> 34:26.720]  Shameless plug.
[34:27.320 --> 34:29.200]  But yeah, it was...
[34:29.820 --> 34:31.320]  I was called in as a guest twice.
[34:31.540 --> 34:34.020]  But really, at that point, I think the damage was done.
[34:34.180 --> 34:36.420]  And people were just disgusted with it.
[34:36.760 --> 34:41.240]  If you look at pseudo-TV now, I believe they have, what, four channels?
[34:41.240 --> 34:42.080]  Yeah.
[34:42.840 --> 34:46.320]  Which shows you, in the beginning, they had like 30, 40 channels.
[34:46.940 --> 34:50.400]  One of them being BizTechTV, I believe the URL was.
[34:51.580 --> 34:53.320]  They did have a lot of content.
[34:53.340 --> 34:55.120]  And they did have a lot of computer content.
[34:55.480 --> 35:00.880]  One of the things you've got to realize in media, though, a Unix shell prompt is not interesting to the consumer.
[35:01.880 --> 35:05.680]  It'll never be, no one wants to see you look, oh, look, bash.
[35:06.340 --> 35:08.520]  They're not going to give two rats ass.
[35:08.520 --> 35:12.920]  But if you show them something matrix-y, I could bring up this display.
[35:13.240 --> 35:14.420]  I mean, look at the movie Hackers.
[35:14.580 --> 35:15.300]  I mean, just imagine.
[35:15.360 --> 35:16.320]  You show that to a viewer.
[35:16.520 --> 35:18.040]  It makes money.
[35:18.440 --> 35:19.900]  You show someone a documentary.
[35:20.240 --> 35:24.460]  Forgive me for all the CDC people who might be here, but disinformation.
[35:25.760 --> 35:27.320]  It was a 15-minute movie.
[35:27.320 --> 35:29.320]  They sold it, but it was viewable online.
[35:29.400 --> 35:30.960]  The only people who watched it were hackers.
[35:31.760 --> 35:36.940]  So there's a means to an end there, where it's only going to be out there if it's sensationalism.
[35:36.940 --> 35:48.440]  Whether or not the hackers have to change is a question that can't be answered right now, but media sure is not going to change, because they are a money-making engine, and that's all they're ever going to be.
[35:53.160 --> 36:01.700]  Just a quick note, and I think that this may be timely, given that there are a number of TV cameras and microphones and such prowling around.
[36:02.120 --> 36:03.600]  I'm sure Isaac knows what this is in reference to.
[36:04.860 --> 36:08.620]  That really watch what you say to everyone.
[36:09.400 --> 36:14.640]  Especially the media, because they do like to edit, and I experienced this personally.
[36:14.800 --> 36:16.920]  I don't know if you remember my face from the beginning of the show.
[36:17.140 --> 36:17.340]  Yes.
[36:18.000 --> 36:19.480]  Well, you remember, as I mentioned it.
[36:19.540 --> 36:19.980]  I recall.
[36:20.220 --> 36:21.080]  Yes, but I...
[36:21.080 --> 36:21.620]  My condolences.
[36:21.620 --> 36:21.980]  Yes.
[36:23.080 --> 36:23.820]  But I...
[36:23.820 --> 36:25.480]  They did really make me look like a fool.
[36:25.800 --> 36:29.680]  And if you remember the quote I said after that, they edited it out.
[36:29.820 --> 36:30.480]  Of course not.
[36:30.940 --> 36:33.220]  Trying to exercise a bit of personal responsibility.
[36:33.780 --> 36:44.840]  But just a note to everyone to make sure that you don't say anything that could be clipped and edited to make you look like a fool, destructive, ignorant, what have you.
[36:45.640 --> 36:46.060]  Thanks.
[36:46.400 --> 36:47.340]  Well, that's something that happens.
[36:47.560 --> 36:50.280]  I mean, you know, they're going to take the bits and pieces.
[36:51.100 --> 36:56.380]  When you're approached by the media, more often than not, they've already got the story in mind.
[36:56.420 --> 37:04.560]  And they're just looking for quotes from you, sound bites from you, that are going to fill and progress it towards that point that they're going to try to make.
[37:04.740 --> 37:05.980]  Is it responsible journalism?
[37:06.220 --> 37:07.540]  I would tend to think not.
[37:08.220 --> 37:10.380]  Because they'd be ignoring whatever you managed to tell them.
[37:10.380 --> 37:15.500]  For instance, when Serena came to WBAI, I had no idea she was going to show up.
[37:15.700 --> 37:18.200]  Because I usually have no idea what's happening with that show in general.
[37:19.680 --> 37:23.580]  She shows up, we go off into a room, and we just talked for hours.
[37:25.160 --> 37:29.360]  And, you know, the basic questions that we got to were motivation.
[37:29.540 --> 37:30.220]  Why do you hack?
[37:30.320 --> 37:31.920]  Things like that, which are always the classics.
[37:32.140 --> 37:33.100]  And they were completely ignored.
[37:33.860 --> 37:38.880]  Now, granted, I am very happy not to have appeared anywhere in that MTV piece.
[37:38.880 --> 37:43.540]  In fact, I was fairly nervous looking at the little, you know, thumbnail-sized photos on the website.
[37:44.940 --> 37:50.980]  But, yeah, if you do talk to media, realize that they're approaching this already in their mind.
[37:51.000 --> 37:52.980]  They have an idea of what they want the article to be.
[37:53.440 --> 37:55.480]  And just be careful about what you say.
[37:56.620 --> 38:00.960]  They did have the... they did come into the 2600 meetings a lot, too.
[38:00.960 --> 38:04.240]  They actually got kicked out of the City Court building because they didn't have a permit.
[38:04.500 --> 38:04.580]  Well, that was...
[38:04.580 --> 38:06.780]  Yeah, I got an email after that.
[38:06.880 --> 38:08.760]  How do we manage to get a permit for City Court?
[38:09.420 --> 38:11.120]  Show them to the security guys.
[38:11.160 --> 38:12.840]  But they had total view of the subculture.
[38:13.060 --> 38:14.900]  I mean, they had total access to it.
[38:14.960 --> 38:16.120]  They talked to a lot of people.
[38:16.260 --> 38:17.660]  So they didn't make an effort.
[38:19.160 --> 38:27.320]  When I talked to Serena about the cutting room floor and all this footage that was just totally pushed aside, her answer was it wasn't her.
[38:27.480 --> 38:28.100]  It was Anthony.
[38:29.060 --> 38:32.140]  So, I mean, I'm sure if I posed it to Anthony, he was, eh, it's her.
[38:32.260 --> 38:32.840]  You know, whatever.
[38:33.300 --> 38:34.780]  Brother and sister there or something.
[38:34.780 --> 38:35.240]  I don't know.
[38:36.700 --> 38:39.260]  But, basically, they did have access to that footage.
[38:40.140 --> 38:43.500]  Why they ignored it, the motivation I'll ignore, I don't know.
[38:43.660 --> 38:44.560]  I don't know why.
[38:46.780 --> 38:48.660]  I just have a couple of points.
[38:49.580 --> 38:52.420]  Because the past couple of people have pretty much said what I was going to say.
[38:52.500 --> 38:52.740]  Almost.
[38:53.000 --> 38:54.520]  Except for that sexy thing.
[38:54.520 --> 38:58.180]  I think that that is the entirely wrong way to think about it.
[38:58.360 --> 39:04.560]  To think that we have to go to other media and make what we do look sexy for them.
[39:04.800 --> 39:06.860]  People aren't going to be interested in Unix shell prompts.
[39:07.080 --> 39:09.820]  So you shouldn't, it's not your responsibility to make them interested in that.
[39:10.000 --> 39:17.160]  It's our responsibility to put our own content, make our own films, you know, publish magazines and things like that.
[39:17.960 --> 39:21.860]  And be a little active in presenting what we want presented about us.
[39:21.980 --> 39:23.000]  Not to find somebody else.
[39:23.000 --> 39:29.240]  Because we could sit here all day and argue whether or not television, this television reporter is a real news reporter.
[39:29.460 --> 39:31.620]  Or that newspaper writer is a real news writer.
[39:31.900 --> 39:33.440]  And it's not going to get us anywhere.
[39:34.860 --> 39:43.740]  So I don't think that we should be striving to make it look sexy to them or try to come up with a sound bite that they'll be able to use that won't make us look bad.
[39:43.920 --> 39:46.160]  Because I don't think you can blame MTV for what they did.
[39:46.160 --> 39:50.800]  They're going to take all the footage they had and they're going to cut it the way they think looks like a news story.
[39:51.420 --> 39:53.140]  They're not knowledgeable about it.
[39:53.240 --> 39:56.060]  So they're not going to say, well, this part makes them look bad.
[39:56.380 --> 39:57.940]  And this part makes them look good.
[39:58.060 --> 40:00.720]  They're going to say, well, this part sounds good on TV.
[40:00.720 --> 40:03.800]  And that's what I've thought about them the whole time.
[40:04.020 --> 40:07.880]  And that's the thing, because we're them to the news media.
[40:08.060 --> 40:10.560]  So we should be actively trying to do our own thing.
[40:10.880 --> 40:21.760]  And eventually, it'll, you know, by osmosis, hopefully someday, there'll be somebody out there that might have some, you know, good idea of what's going on.
[40:21.760 --> 40:23.120]  Well, this is what Tommy was saying.
[40:23.320 --> 40:29.540]  Where basically, they were interested in grabbing eyeballs for their advertisers and they're going to do the most sensationalistic thing they can do.
[40:29.700 --> 40:31.280]  I got a kind of rhetorical question.
[40:31.520 --> 40:31.640]  Yeah.
[40:32.060 --> 40:34.940]  How many people have seen National Geographic magazine?
[40:35.360 --> 40:37.180]  How many people actually read it?
[40:38.060 --> 40:42.260]  I mean, it's, it's, what are you going to do out there?
[40:42.380 --> 40:44.940]  Who's looking at National Geographic without reading it?
[40:45.980 --> 40:47.060]  That doesn't even make sense.
[40:47.400 --> 40:51.580]  No, it's the fact that if you're into a Unix shell prompt, you're going to watch it.
[40:51.580 --> 40:53.900]  If you're not interested, you're not going to watch it.
[40:53.980 --> 40:55.380]  The media is driven by money.
[40:55.680 --> 40:56.500]  People need jobs.
[40:56.920 --> 40:57.480]  That's my point.
[40:57.640 --> 40:58.300]  Yeah, they don't serve you.
[40:58.380 --> 40:59.360]  They serve advertisers.
[40:59.740 --> 41:05.060]  But the point I was trying to make is that you shouldn't try to serve their advertisers for them.
[41:05.260 --> 41:07.440]  You shouldn't say, well, they're not going to be interested in that.
[41:07.580 --> 41:09.180]  I'm going to give them something else.
[41:09.500 --> 41:10.780]  You should say, this is what I am.
[41:10.860 --> 41:14.620]  And if they're going to misrepresent it, well, then I'll fight that injustice when it comes around.
[41:15.020 --> 41:19.380]  But otherwise, it's not my responsibility to try to educate them and make a Unix shell prompt look sexy.
[41:19.380 --> 41:22.100]  Because when you try to make it look sexy, you get the movie Hackers.
[41:22.340 --> 41:22.740]  I agree.
[41:22.940 --> 41:23.500]  That's what you get.
[41:23.840 --> 41:23.960]  Yeah.
[41:24.400 --> 41:24.660]  Okay.
[41:28.220 --> 41:30.740]  Actually, I'd like to disagree with this last statement.
[41:31.460 --> 41:38.520]  But more importantly, make a bigger comment that if we created our own media, then it would be just catering to us.
[41:38.600 --> 41:39.660]  We'd be the only ones reading it.
[41:40.100 --> 41:44.660]  The way to do it is to try to get print within the mass media.
[41:44.860 --> 41:47.200]  And I don't think that MTV is the right forum.
[41:47.360 --> 41:53.100]  I think that whether it be trade journals like Peace Week and others that a lot of times are clueless but can be made clueful.
[41:53.320 --> 41:58.700]  And the way you do that is not by taking interviews all the time, although that's an important part, but generate your own content.
[41:58.700 --> 42:03.040]  A lot of these magazines are looking for people who are knowledgeable in the arena.
[42:03.320 --> 42:11.660]  If you generate the content, write an article and submit it, more often than not, they're going to print it because they want to be able to capture audiences that they don't currently have.
[42:12.620 --> 42:17.200]  The place to start, though, is in the trade journals where people do care about Unix prompts and Bash.
[42:17.200 --> 42:26.180]  You start there and you generate some interest there and things that are in PC Week and in Information Week and all these things that business people read, eventually do get out to the New York Times and Newsweeks.
[42:26.340 --> 42:30.620]  So the way to do it isn't to say, well, I'll wait for some interviewer to come to me and then I'll try to give them a good story.
[42:30.940 --> 42:34.860]  Write the story yourself and submit it to the journals that you think it's appropriate for.
[42:35.360 --> 42:36.180]  Generate the content.
[42:36.300 --> 42:41.600]  The more content is out there, the more likelihood of a chance of someone else picking it up and then bringing it out to the masses.
[42:42.260 --> 42:44.080]  I think that's excellent.
[42:44.320 --> 42:46.740]  And that's definitely a thing to do.
[42:49.180 --> 42:53.720]  If you can, try to build a relationship with reporters.
[42:53.880 --> 42:55.240]  They're very approachable.
[42:56.480 --> 42:58.620]  And get to know editors if you can.
[42:58.760 --> 43:01.840]  With email now, you can actually do that with your local paper.
[43:02.880 --> 43:04.600]  Get to be a resource for that.
[43:04.740 --> 43:08.860]  And if possible, write a column and do that kind of thing.
[43:08.860 --> 43:11.640]  And that's a way to counteract this stuff.
[43:15.930 --> 43:16.310]  Hi.
[43:16.530 --> 43:23.910]  Is there any value in having a crappy show like that, which has this kind of grand, oh, look what I can do with a computer if I get interested in it.
[43:24.070 --> 43:28.290]  And just generating interest and that's like the wrong channel, sort of.
[43:28.510 --> 43:33.550]  But once you're there, you meet people and you kind of get into the whole idea of what it really is.
[43:33.550 --> 43:40.250]  Like maybe if you're really inexperienced or something and you think you can, you know, be Superman or something.
[43:40.950 --> 43:42.010]  Or Neo or something.
[43:42.170 --> 43:43.270]  And then you like get into it.
[43:43.490 --> 43:43.710]  Right.
[43:44.270 --> 43:46.050]  You know, and maybe like good things come of it.
[43:46.170 --> 43:51.010]  You know, like you get a bunch of, you know, patches to the kernel or something that comes out of it.
[43:51.050 --> 43:52.150]  Just more people, you know.
[43:52.870 --> 43:53.550]  The draw.
[43:54.070 --> 44:00.810]  You're talking about how a show like that can draw people into it and then as they're in the environment they can learn what it's really about.
[44:00.810 --> 44:02.330]  You know, detoxify them over time.
[44:02.550 --> 44:09.990]  It works, but you're going to wind up with, for every one valuable individual, like 3,000 who are just doing it for the pick of the week.
[44:10.110 --> 44:13.330]  I mean, one of the things I was telling Serena was, you know, hi, I'm Isaac.
[44:13.450 --> 44:13.890]  I'm a hacker.
[44:14.050 --> 44:16.570]  Do notice the fact that I am not on rollerblades.
[44:16.710 --> 44:18.250]  I am not wearing Teflon.
[44:18.470 --> 44:21.370]  I am, you know, my hair is generally well combed.
[44:21.390 --> 44:22.370]  I'm sorry about the hair again.
[44:22.990 --> 44:27.230]  You know, I tend to think I like to speak fluently.
[44:30.430 --> 44:41.570]  It's, yes, that image can attract individuals to the community, but I would tend to think that the price is too high to bring people in that way.
[44:43.770 --> 44:48.570]  The reason why I'm dying my hair is I'm almost 30, so I'm trying to hold on to the youth, okay?
[44:48.730 --> 44:49.710]  It's not a hacker thing.
[44:49.710 --> 44:50.570]  It ain't worth it.
[44:52.010 --> 44:52.590]  Thank you.
[44:53.610 --> 45:00.330]  I also, the reason why Serena and I were like, she knew me as a hacker is because I did work for MTV and I did the networking there.
[45:00.530 --> 45:05.830]  So, that's the only reason, you know, I didn't get interviewed for the show or I wasn't on the show or anything like that.
[45:05.990 --> 45:09.230]  I was like a technical advisor for a little bit and then got cut.
[45:09.390 --> 45:15.090]  And by the way, they did lay me off shortly after the MTV show was on the air, after three years.
[45:15.090 --> 45:16.830]  You got a good severance package though, right?
[45:17.190 --> 45:17.390]  Yeah.
[45:17.830 --> 45:18.030]  Okay.
[45:18.410 --> 45:18.830]  It was okay.
[45:19.230 --> 45:20.390]  It was okay, it was severance.
[45:23.670 --> 45:29.890]  Yes, I would just like to mention that when I saw the MTV special, I probably caught like the last, how long was it, like an hour?
[45:30.370 --> 45:30.870]  Half hour.
[45:30.950 --> 45:31.450]  Half hour.
[45:31.690 --> 45:31.750]  Yeah.
[45:31.870 --> 45:33.470]  Whatever, I caught the last half of it.
[45:33.590 --> 45:42.210]  And what I saw of it, I really saw as harmless and, you know, coming from MTV, it was like a lot, like, it didn't really send much of a message to me.
[45:42.550 --> 45:48.330]  It just sent like a perspective of like, you know, mantis and all these like fake hackers or whatever.
[45:49.050 --> 45:51.070]  And then like, you know, then you see movies like Hackers.
[45:51.590 --> 46:02.490]  That movie, that one, like really, that's more of a travesty than anything to me because like, you know, they got like all these people weird color hair and everything and you know, I mean, no offense to you or anything.
[46:02.630 --> 46:03.690]  I got weird color hair too.
[46:03.830 --> 46:05.490]  Yeah, we just have to keep doing that, you know?
[46:06.830 --> 46:14.050]  But you know, like you have to, you know, they have to style about themselves and everything, which is like, you know, that's, that's how you be a hacker and stuff.
[46:14.270 --> 46:23.270]  And then like, um, I also think like the reason people have categorized us is because, um, people don't listen to like, like don't listen anymore.
[46:23.270 --> 46:25.970]  Like a lot of like people that are outside our interest.
[46:26.430 --> 46:30.030]  Like, you know, I try to explain to my cousin about how to do this and that with a computer.
[46:30.270 --> 46:31.530]  She looks at me like, huh?
[46:31.730 --> 46:34.810]  And like, you know, they treat us like sorcerers almost, you know?
[46:35.310 --> 46:40.270]  We're like, um, we're like the wizards with our like little, um, Bibles and books in our rooms and everything like that.
[46:40.370 --> 46:43.850]  Any significantly advanced technology will be indistinguishable from magic.
[46:44.430 --> 46:44.970]  That's right.
[46:46.490 --> 46:48.590]  But that's, that's, that's what it is.
[46:48.710 --> 47:01.570]  It's just, I tell you the truth, I almost feel like the wizard Gandalf from Tolkien now because I've like, you know, I really don't know what to say with this, but, you know, it's just like, it's like, we're like, we're like special or something.
[47:01.770 --> 47:02.030]  I don't know.
[47:02.090 --> 47:02.730]  I don't know about special.
[47:02.730 --> 47:04.110]  Do you mean like ride the short bus?
[47:07.130 --> 47:17.330]  Because like, if I could be categorized in that way, it would be much, I would say it would be a better solution than actually being categorized as a hacker for what people think of us right now.
[47:17.530 --> 47:18.010]  Yeah, well.
[47:18.090 --> 47:22.370]  Um, I, I don't introduce myself to people at work like, hi, I'm Tommy Pickles.
[47:22.510 --> 47:22.990]  I'm a hacker.
[47:23.250 --> 47:24.030]  Because you know what?
[47:24.110 --> 47:27.790]  The first thing they do is they think I'm out for an evil reason.
[47:27.990 --> 47:29.490]  I'm out there for an evil purpose.
[47:29.490 --> 47:36.890]  Or the other reaction I sometimes get, because I do try to sell myself, I'm a consultant and, you know, I get called in as Isaac the Hacker.
[47:38.150 --> 47:41.170]  They'll come up and say, oh, wow, can you do this?
[47:41.450 --> 47:47.050]  Like, you know, crash an airplane or steal my credit card info or, hey, you know, I'm having a problem with this divorce case.
[47:47.190 --> 47:49.050]  Do you think you could find this info on someone else?
[47:49.210 --> 47:52.990]  And you just look at the guy and your jaw drops and, are you serious?
[47:54.530 --> 47:59.370]  It's a very sad kind of state of affairs that this is the stereotype we have to live with.
[48:01.130 --> 48:03.470]  But my basic advice is kind of ignore it.
[48:03.490 --> 48:04.370]  Just do your own thing.
[48:06.250 --> 48:12.370]  It's going to be there, because that's what the media is going to continue to dish out.
[48:13.270 --> 48:17.590]  Okay, well, my one question, though, is like, how would you define a hacker?
[48:20.230 --> 48:20.590]  Certifications.
[48:23.550 --> 48:24.250]  I disagree.
[48:25.190 --> 48:27.150]  I just like certifications at all levels.
[48:29.090 --> 48:32.790]  It's one of the bigger questions, what is a hacker?
[48:34.710 --> 48:37.190]  And you're going to get a lot of responses, depending on who you ask.
[48:37.190 --> 48:42.830]  Well, I've seen many definitions, and I think I come to the fact that maybe, like, all of us here can be hackers.
[48:43.090 --> 48:51.210]  And it's just the idea of going on the computer, going on the internet, going on the internet relay chat or whatever like that.
[48:51.470 --> 48:54.810]  And then, like, you know, downloading copyrighted material.
[48:54.810 --> 48:55.570]  I don't know.
[48:55.690 --> 48:59.590]  It's like so much there to choose from.
[48:59.590 --> 49:05.330]  I mean, they consider us outlaws because, you know, like, a lot of us do illegal stuff by, like, downloading MP3s.
[49:05.330 --> 49:08.850]  Hacker becomes a convenient box to put a lot of people.
[49:08.870 --> 49:14.070]  If it involves computers and some kind of nefarious activity, people like to throw them in the hacker box.
[49:14.970 --> 49:23.870]  I've heard definitions from hacker that get as strict as, you must have a soldering iron and play with, you know, the hardware of certain key systems.
[49:23.870 --> 49:25.630]  You must know Unix inside and out.
[49:25.770 --> 49:33.150]  And I've seen it go as broad as anyone who has any interest in pushing the envelopes of technology could be considered a hacker.
[49:33.350 --> 49:41.530]  For instance, the guy with his 57 Chevy in the garage who can pull apart the engine, you know, throw it back together and then go and have dinner all in one day.
[49:42.310 --> 49:44.330]  I tend to like that more broad definition.
[49:44.630 --> 49:50.370]  Well, I think the broad definition is a little bit better because notice how some people categorize it as computer hackers.
[49:50.370 --> 49:50.570]  Right.
[49:50.870 --> 49:53.810]  So it can be automobile hackers or whatever the case may be.
[49:53.970 --> 49:59.350]  Well, the more convenient ones are radio technologies like that, telephones and so forth.
[49:59.970 --> 50:00.190]  Right.
[50:00.570 --> 50:00.750]  Yeah.
[50:00.990 --> 50:04.710]  I personally think the word hacker has been overused.
[50:05.050 --> 50:10.910]  So therefore, after this panel, we're all going to get together and make a whole bunch of new terms and copyright them so no one can use them ever again.
[50:11.010 --> 50:11.650]  Yes, I like this.
[50:11.950 --> 50:12.730]  It won't work.
[50:12.950 --> 50:13.530]  It won't work.
[50:13.530 --> 50:21.150]  I mean, there's a bunch of people still trying to push cracker, which as an amateur cryptologist, I'm still somewhat against.
[50:21.450 --> 50:24.270]  We had that for a long time and we... regardless.
[50:24.970 --> 50:26.930]  You can't push terms on the media.
[50:27.070 --> 50:28.530]  They're going to do whatever they want to do.
[50:29.670 --> 50:32.230]  Remember, you as a viewer are a commodity.
[50:32.770 --> 50:37.770]  When you watch television show, the station is not trying to deliver to you.
[50:37.950 --> 50:40.450]  It's trying to deliver your eyes to the advertiser.
[50:40.910 --> 50:44.430]  You're the product so far as the media is concerned.
[50:44.670 --> 50:50.870]  So they're not going to investigate this stuff too deeply because there are very few people who are going to call them on it.
[50:51.370 --> 51:03.750]  Of course, as you try to make your show more and more sexy and whatever else, and you're picking up on the whole hacker subculture with the Teflon and, you know, the roller blades and the skates and weird things like that...
[51:03.750 --> 51:06.030]  The movie hacker says it all about the image there.
[51:06.170 --> 51:06.350]  Right.
[51:06.490 --> 51:09.030]  It's 100% image and it's a stereotypical image.
[51:09.290 --> 51:20.770]  Now, one of the challenges I like to give to media people is, you know, you can do a reality check that can get just as many viewers as peddling in that same sort of image that everyone else is doing.
[51:20.770 --> 51:29.190]  If you separate yourself from the pack so far, folks are just going to tune in to get the reality check on the rest of the stuff they've been ditched.
[51:29.710 --> 51:31.110]  You know, imagine USA Today.
[51:31.410 --> 51:36.110]  Hackers perceived non-threat, you know, friendly hackers saves XYZ.
[51:36.390 --> 51:42.530]  You know, you can wind up getting as many people pulling it off the stands as for hacker downs, TWA, whatever.
[51:44.010 --> 51:47.790]  Or hacker interrupts NASA communications, which didn't happen.
[51:50.870 --> 51:53.690]  But, yeah, what was the point I was trying to make?
[51:53.850 --> 51:54.130]  I don't know.
[51:55.210 --> 51:55.930]  Okay, thanks.
[51:55.970 --> 51:57.250]  Well, I'll just... thank you very much.
[51:57.710 --> 52:00.370]  I think we're out of time, so thanks for coming.
[52:10.000 --> 52:11.060]  You're all good hackers.
[52:12.260 --> 52:15.200]  Okay, in a few minutes we're going to start our hacktivism panel.
[52:15.620 --> 52:18.920]  If any of our hacktivism panelists are here, please come forward.
[52:18.920 --> 52:20.260]  You're welcome.
[52:20.860 --> 52:23.000]  You're welcome.
[52:23.000 --> 52:23.220]  Thank you.