[00:03.780 --> 00:06.820]  So then, let's start with some other question.
[00:07.860 --> 00:08.560]  Anyone up?
[00:09.140 --> 00:09.380]  Go ahead.
[00:10.000 --> 00:13.020]  Have you seen the Takedown movie?
[00:15.220 --> 00:16.440]  Yes, I saw it.
[00:17.260 --> 00:19.380]  I don't remember what circumstances I saw it under.
[00:23.120 --> 00:25.400]  They played it at DEFCON last year.
[00:25.700 --> 00:26.180]  They played it at DEFCON last year.
[00:26.180 --> 00:27.220]  They played it at DEFCON.
[00:27.300 --> 00:28.700]  Yes, I was not at DEFCON that year.
[00:28.820 --> 00:31.000]  However, I did manage to see it.
[00:31.000 --> 00:34.180]  I forget how or why or why it came around.
[00:34.540 --> 00:36.280]  But I did get to see it.
[00:37.480 --> 00:42.240]  It was interesting and sort of bad.
[00:42.920 --> 00:47.200]  It did turn out as poorly as I thought it would, but it still was pretty poor.
[00:48.060 --> 00:51.720]  Was a pretty good movie if you took an as fiction?
[00:53.780 --> 00:54.800]  You thought it was?
[00:55.060 --> 00:57.320]  A pretty good movie if you took an as fiction?
[00:57.880 --> 00:58.640]  Yes, yes.
[00:59.960 --> 01:03.680]  It's something that you should have taken as fiction and really can only take as fiction.
[01:04.840 --> 01:07.220]  But if you try it,
[01:13.960 --> 01:15.900]  then it just doesn't stack up at all.
[01:17.580 --> 01:18.520]  Any other questions?
[01:20.140 --> 01:22.520]  Any other questions?
[01:23.900 --> 01:25.280]  What does it take in?
[01:27.080 --> 01:28.320]  Oh, it takes 8th engine?
[01:28.680 --> 01:29.380]  It is.
[01:30.860 --> 01:33.620]  I happened to run into him just by chance, we didn't realize it.
[01:33.880 --> 01:36.660]  You told us?
[01:36.840 --> 01:36.980]  Yes.
[01:36.980 --> 01:37.560]  Are you sure?
[01:38.240 --> 01:39.740]  Are you going to be filming everything?
[01:39.840 --> 01:40.580]  I didn't realize it.
[01:41.960 --> 01:44.080]  I just thought we were just doing this one.
[01:44.360 --> 01:45.760]  We got the other stuff going there.
[01:48.920 --> 01:50.760]  What was the 20 mass we took out?
[01:51.000 --> 01:51.800]  I don't remember.
[01:52.900 --> 01:57.640]  There was all sorts of stuff that didn't really apply very well.
[01:58.180 --> 02:07.940]  For example, there was a great section where Veggie was talking about what a hacker is, what the CDC did that Veggie was talking about for like five minutes of that.
[02:08.540 --> 02:09.980]  And it was great.
[02:10.160 --> 02:10.620]  We loved it.
[02:10.740 --> 02:11.640]  It worked really well.
[02:11.940 --> 02:13.760]  Unfortunately, it was not part of the story.
[02:13.960 --> 02:15.480]  And we had to cut some time.
[02:15.640 --> 02:17.680]  As you know, it did last too long.
[02:17.980 --> 02:20.820]  And so eventually we decided that's one of the things we had to cut.
[02:21.000 --> 02:26.940]  We also cut down some of the scenes, some of the sections, like MetroCard when the Fun Pass first came out.
[02:27.080 --> 02:28.880]  We were down there letting people in for free.
[02:29.060 --> 02:31.020]  We cut at least three quarters of that out.
[02:33.200 --> 02:35.560]  No, we cut three quarters of it out.
[02:36.080 --> 02:36.840]  It's still in there.
[02:37.460 --> 02:38.980]  We cut a whole lot out.
[02:40.820 --> 02:41.560]  Other questions?
[02:48.310 --> 02:58.110]  The time period between 18 minutes from when you can swipe it to when you can swipe it in the same terminal.
[02:58.570 --> 03:09.390]  What you can do, not what a lot of people do anymore, but what I still do is you swipe it, you go to the train, you go to your source, to your destination, and you swipe it again on the way out.
[03:09.570 --> 03:12.250]  Because it doesn't matter how fast you're using between stations.
[03:12.710 --> 03:18.390]  You can use them instantly in all like 35 stations that you can get copies of the card for.
[03:18.390 --> 03:23.350]  And let 35 people and not 34 people in for free.
[03:25.370 --> 03:26.530]  Other questions?
[03:28.970 --> 03:29.770]  Comments?
[03:31.830 --> 03:41.670]  You know, the general public doesn't really know much about acting or even about computers.
[03:42.270 --> 03:49.410]  So how do you explain the evidently story?
[04:00.970 --> 04:05.630]  How do we explain the Kevin situation to people on the street?
[04:05.930 --> 04:10.890]  To wing them over and explain to them that an injustice has been done.
[04:11.010 --> 04:14.050]  What you saw in the documentary is pretty much how we did it.
[04:14.230 --> 04:15.230]  It was really fast.
[04:16.950 --> 04:22.930]  We had usually flyers with us describing the entire thing in detail and we went over it briefly as we spoke to them.
[04:23.910 --> 04:25.970]  A lot of people didn't believe it as you saw.
[04:26.610 --> 04:38.190]  And so we had to sort of find ways to let them, if what we were saying was true, how would they feel about that in the film.
[04:38.190 --> 04:47.030]  In general, we find people that, actually, a lot of the people we tell on our talks just happen to be people like you see here.
[04:47.590 --> 04:56.340]  People that, and won't completely disbelieve anything you're saying just because you're anti-government or something.
[05:00.000 --> 05:03.400]  So, it helps to have a lot of practice in it actually.
[05:03.720 --> 05:10.220]  To be able to cite references and procedures to show them that you do know what you're talking about.
[05:12.500 --> 05:14.080]  That's really all I can see here.
[05:17.500 --> 05:19.480]  I have two more questions.
[05:19.920 --> 05:25.840]  First of all, where has this movie been shown and where do you plan to show it?
[05:26.660 --> 05:30.700]  It has been shown at film festivals all over the place, really.
[05:31.520 --> 05:34.120]  And movie theaters here and there.
[05:35.560 --> 05:41.000]  We've shown it at the New York Film Festival, which is in New York and actually goes to Nevada for some reason.
[05:42.340 --> 05:45.920]  We've shown it at the Woodstock Film Festival.
[05:45.920 --> 05:48.560]  We've shown it at film festivals in Ohio.
[05:48.780 --> 05:49.220]  We've shown it.
[05:51.160 --> 05:54.900]  We've shown it here.
[05:55.240 --> 05:56.140]  And of course we're selling it.
[05:56.720 --> 05:59.440]  Also, actually this is something you might not know of.
[05:59.500 --> 06:04.680]  We're broadcasting it on Free Speech TV sometime in the fairly near future.
[06:05.440 --> 06:15.360]  Free Speech TV is a channel, public access-ish channel, available from DirecTV, not DirecTV, Dish Network, and several others.
[06:15.360 --> 06:17.660]  And it was also a web broadcast.
[06:18.720 --> 06:20.420]  Okay, exactly.
[06:20.920 --> 06:25.120]  Why was there more opportunity to be in the middle of the film on this film?
[06:25.300 --> 06:26.520]  He was in jail.
[06:27.580 --> 06:31.360]  It was just the very, very end of our production sequence.
[06:32.280 --> 06:37.540]  It was like maybe a week before we showed it here that we got that tape, I believe.
[06:37.540 --> 06:39.000]  That sounds about right.
[06:39.200 --> 06:45.160]  Do you plan to do the interviews on the DVD?
[06:46.980 --> 06:47.980]  That's a good question.
[06:49.000 --> 06:50.240]  I hadn't thought of it.
[06:50.700 --> 06:51.780]  Maybe Emmanuel has.
[06:52.020 --> 06:54.220]  It would be an interesting idea, yeah.
[06:55.260 --> 06:56.240]  Thanks for bringing it up.
[06:59.270 --> 06:59.830]  Questions?
[07:00.370 --> 07:00.470]  Yes?
[07:01.170 --> 07:01.470]  It's
[07:07.420 --> 07:08.240]  such a bad movie.
[07:09.180 --> 07:10.480]  It wouldn't fly here.
[07:10.480 --> 07:11.560]  It's not a great movie.
[07:11.660 --> 07:15.940]  However, we did make changes, but we did have an effect.
[07:17.440 --> 07:20.240]  Everybody in Miramax knew about what we were doing.
[07:21.220 --> 07:25.540]  And the changes would not have been made without us, without our intention.
[07:25.840 --> 07:26.720]  I'm not convinced of that.
[07:26.940 --> 07:29.520]  Is that the reason why it did not get released in the United States?
[07:29.720 --> 07:30.120]  I don't know.
[07:32.160 --> 07:34.980]  Sometime it may be released to television.
[07:35.200 --> 07:36.760]  It's never been a few years impossible.
[07:37.760 --> 07:44.940]  I think we included a lot of the people on the phone side of it.
[07:45.140 --> 07:47.780]  Like the handset, the audio is way louder than what's on the line.
[07:48.220 --> 07:48.820]  I'm hungry.
[07:48.980 --> 07:58.020]  I also noticed that the program couldn't do the other guys interviews, mostly because he didn't find your version of Roger.
[08:00.120 --> 08:06.160]  And I think that's one of the best offenses for Kevin is letting his opposition speak.
[08:06.380 --> 08:09.380]  And what they do, they always seem to make fools of themselves.
[08:12.960 --> 08:13.560]  Yeah.
[08:13.560 --> 08:18.160]  What are we missing from the bill that we're not seeing?
[08:18.160 --> 08:23.640]  Where we see how could we make, you know, that's the only thing you say.
[08:26.100 --> 08:35.120]  Because every time you hear, like, evidence brought up, it always seems to confirm the pro-Kevin's eye.
[08:35.300 --> 08:35.740]  Yes.
[08:36.120 --> 08:36.340]  Yeah.
[08:36.560 --> 08:40.160]  So, that's kind of something that we were missing from the film.
[08:40.320 --> 08:42.400]  And I know that wasn't the intention of the film.
[08:42.880 --> 08:45.020]  You mean it is a pro-Kevin movie.
[08:45.020 --> 08:46.420]  Yeah, it is a pro-Kevin movie.
[08:46.600 --> 08:47.020]  Yeah, exactly.
[08:48.800 --> 09:00.380]  In the beginning, NYPD Blue, their sort of shaky cam thing that they started, was something that we had sort of tried to emulate in the very beginning, sort of fell through.
[09:00.560 --> 09:04.180]  But then, looking at it in the end, we sort of did have it.
[09:08.440 --> 09:10.400]  I think that's all I can say to that.
[09:11.440 --> 09:12.120]  Yes, go ahead.
[09:17.460 --> 09:19.360]  I had TV production in high school.
[09:20.000 --> 09:21.020]  That's not really filmmaking.
[09:21.520 --> 09:21.980]  That's it.
[09:22.580 --> 09:25.070]  That's pretty much all I had, making this.
[09:26.160 --> 09:27.120]  Same thing with Emmanuel.
[09:27.340 --> 09:29.220]  He had not done this before.
[09:29.520 --> 09:31.620]  However, he's been wanting to do it for years.
[09:33.190 --> 09:40.690]  I remember the first time he approached me about it was when I was talking something abstract about video after the 97 conference.
[09:44.890 --> 09:46.610]  Have you ever done filmmaking before?
[09:47.170 --> 09:49.570]  I, myself, have not done filmmaking before.
[09:51.410 --> 09:55.310]  Yes, and it's you in the grayish shirt.
[09:55.450 --> 09:55.710]  Yeah, you.
[09:56.710 --> 09:57.130]  What?
[09:57.930 --> 09:58.830]  Okay, go ahead.
[09:58.830 --> 10:01.450]  I want to thank you for a very good film.
[10:02.370 --> 10:04.430]  I think it has very good points.
[10:05.410 --> 10:10.110]  Also, it really shows not good through information.
[10:11.050 --> 10:24.890]  I'm curious to see that, here, what the general reception of people in different areas of the general public.
[10:25.890 --> 10:28.570]  It varies a lot depending on who you show it to.
[10:29.130 --> 10:32.490]  We can show it to hackers and, obviously, you know what the outcome's going to be there.
[10:32.990 --> 10:38.570]  At film festivals, the people are also pretty wide open in general.
[10:39.190 --> 10:41.130]  They've, you know, lived a lot of...
[10:41.130 --> 10:43.010]  They've lived a long, hard life, a lot of them.
[10:43.310 --> 10:50.150]  And they can identify with some of the things said in the documentary and generally like it.
[10:50.890 --> 10:52.870]  In Europe, we've shown it a couple of times.
[10:52.870 --> 10:57.990]  And there were a couple of small jokes that were sort of...
[10:59.110 --> 11:02.230]  I don't really recall any specific examples.
[11:02.750 --> 11:11.350]  The closest thing I can recall is we had gone to the national labs and we said it was home of well-kept nuclear secrets.
[11:11.810 --> 11:14.090]  And about a week... we had already edited that.
[11:14.210 --> 11:14.670]  It was out.
[11:14.770 --> 11:15.450]  It was in the can.
[11:15.670 --> 11:20.490]  And about a week before we showed it, we had...
[11:21.170 --> 11:24.350]  The nuclear secrets were leaked from the same laboratory.
[11:25.070 --> 11:28.330]  So it sort of had an original joke.
[11:28.910 --> 11:32.750]  And people left a whole lot more in Europe than they did here.
[11:34.130 --> 11:39.450]  Oh, also... at the end of Hollywood, we had...
[11:40.450 --> 11:41.930]  That's the way life is.
[11:42.050 --> 11:42.930]  That's the way America...
[11:43.470 --> 11:44.370]  This is America.
[11:44.610 --> 11:45.390]  That's the way...
[11:45.390 --> 11:46.330]  You know what I'm talking about.
[11:46.570 --> 11:49.530]  That... I can't remember the exact quote right now.
[11:49.710 --> 11:53.530]  But in Europe, they laughed a whole lot more at that.
[11:53.530 --> 11:57.850]  And depending on who we showed it to in film theater...
[11:57.850 --> 12:05.070]  In the film festivals, people there laughed out loud.
[12:05.230 --> 12:06.210]  They were rolling with laughter.
[12:06.430 --> 12:12.350]  And when we showed it to a group of science fiction buffs, they didn't get it.
[12:14.250 --> 12:15.610]  So it varied a whole lot.
[12:15.770 --> 12:17.070]  And the yellow lanyard there.
[12:19.110 --> 12:22.090]  How was Kevin's trial delayed for so long?
[12:22.250 --> 12:25.030]  Did the prosecution just file endless delays and motions?
[12:25.770 --> 12:28.310]  Or did a trial they just never materialize?
[12:29.330 --> 12:30.290]  Each question.
[12:32.570 --> 12:35.290]  Why was the trial delayed so long?
[12:35.910 --> 12:38.450]  Emanuel is a much better way to...
[12:38.450 --> 12:39.910]  A much better answer to this, I'm sure.
[12:39.910 --> 12:46.250]  But basically, it was each side trying to push it further back.
[12:46.750 --> 12:50.490]  No single side was responsible for it, I don't think.
[12:50.650 --> 12:52.670]  But it was a lot of motions.
[12:52.950 --> 12:55.710]  There was more motions in this case than in...
[12:56.590 --> 12:57.690]  I heard this statistic.
[12:57.830 --> 13:01.750]  It was more motions in this case than there was in any other case in the history of that court.
[13:03.390 --> 13:09.510]  It was just motion after motion after motion, each one requiring extra time to delay the trial.
[13:10.550 --> 13:13.870]  And Kevin was actually trying to get the trial.
[13:14.070 --> 13:17.790]  However, he was not prepared to do it in unfair waters.
[13:18.230 --> 13:22.310]  So when it was necessary, I believe he also agreed to delay it.
[13:22.410 --> 13:34.430]  However, I would honestly, after seeing all the evidence and all the papers, I would attribute it to the state of California a lot more than I would to Kevin.
[13:35.930 --> 13:36.650]  Yes, go ahead.
[13:36.650 --> 13:40.030]  How much did it cost to produce this money?
[13:41.170 --> 13:43.070]  Activists never answered this question.
[13:43.350 --> 13:44.210]  Who asked this question?
[13:44.410 --> 13:45.290]  I wonder why?
[13:45.390 --> 13:49.330]  How much money did it cost to do this whole thing?
[13:50.490 --> 13:51.570]  That's a...
[13:51.570 --> 13:53.110]  Thirty million dollars.
[13:53.570 --> 13:54.930]  That's a good question.
[13:55.210 --> 13:57.870]  And we don't really know, nor do we really want to.
[13:58.550 --> 14:04.990]  In independent film, it's always a given that you will never, ever, ever make back the money you put into making it.
[14:06.030 --> 14:07.210]  And this is no exception.
[14:07.890 --> 14:11.530]  It's hard to put a number on it because we'd be living anyway.
[14:12.230 --> 14:16.790]  So if we're living here or if we're living in a car traveling across the United States, it's really not a whole lot different.
[14:16.910 --> 14:18.950]  We're not sure how to add all that together.
[14:19.150 --> 14:21.070]  I can tell you the camera cost a few thousand.
[14:21.230 --> 14:22.730]  We spent a few thousand in tapes.
[14:22.730 --> 14:29.810]  We had a special machine set aside with thousands of hard drives apparently.
[14:30.290 --> 14:34.250]  It was probably about thirty hard drives on this machine.
[14:34.470 --> 14:35.910]  We had a big machine to do this.
[14:37.150 --> 14:42.970]  And other random expenses of flights and so on and so forth.
[14:43.330 --> 14:45.290]  How much did it cost in the end?
[14:45.930 --> 14:48.790]  There's really no number that we can put a finger on.
[14:49.170 --> 14:50.870]  And I'm sorry.
[14:50.950 --> 14:52.350]  That's the best answer I have to give.
[14:53.870 --> 14:54.490]  Over there.
[14:54.810 --> 14:57.710]  How much did it cost the taxpayers to prosecute Kevin?
[15:01.590 --> 15:07.570]  I know it was a big number when it was released by someone or calculated by someone.
[15:08.170 --> 15:12.590]  And my brain is telling me thirty-five million but I'm not sure.
[15:12.850 --> 15:13.710]  I really don't know.
[15:14.030 --> 15:16.590]  And Emmanuel might if and when he gets here.
[15:16.730 --> 15:17.790]  He should have been here a while ago.
[15:20.110 --> 15:20.810]  Yes, go ahead.
[15:20.810 --> 15:23.090]  Who would you have liked to have interviewed and why?
[15:23.510 --> 15:27.610]  And also, did you film the return of the rental car?
[15:29.610 --> 15:31.690]  We filmed everything.
[15:31.930 --> 15:33.730]  But not everything made into the movie.
[15:33.930 --> 15:36.230]  I mean, we've got, I think, what was it in the end?
[15:36.330 --> 15:37.130]  Eighty hours of...
[15:37.130 --> 15:37.910]  It was one hundred hours.
[15:38.070 --> 15:39.770]  One hundred hours of film.
[15:40.030 --> 15:43.330]  So, you know, I mean, it's probably not that interesting returning the car.
[15:43.770 --> 15:45.090]  We, you know...
[15:45.090 --> 15:46.950]  It was probably just, ha ha, this is kind of funny.
[15:46.990 --> 15:47.850]  Our trunk broke, ha ha.
[15:48.110 --> 15:49.410]  And let's film it because it's funny.
[15:49.410 --> 15:51.230]  Yeah, we get to see it but you guys never will.
[15:51.630 --> 15:56.150]  And we just filmed it because, you know, film was kind of, sort of cheap.
[15:56.350 --> 15:56.770]  Not really.
[15:57.190 --> 16:00.250]  But it was cheap enough that we could just, you know, do stuff like that.
[16:02.130 --> 16:02.810]  So, we did.
[16:03.310 --> 16:04.390]  Your other question was?
[16:05.110 --> 16:06.650]  Would you have liked to have interviewed?
[16:07.010 --> 16:08.730]  Who would we have liked to have interviewed and why?
[16:08.990 --> 16:11.990]  Obviously, Tsutomu Shimomura would have been at the top of that list.
[16:12.610 --> 16:13.690]  For obvious reason.
[16:14.190 --> 16:17.770]  We could never find him and we did make a valiant effort to do that.
[16:19.610 --> 16:20.890]  Who else should we have interviewed?
[16:23.190 --> 16:24.850]  I'm not sure if it would work out very well.
[16:25.030 --> 16:29.290]  But some of the actors from Take Down might have been interesting to interview.
[16:29.550 --> 16:32.090]  At least, you know, maybe not in depth.
[16:32.230 --> 16:33.910]  I'm not sure how much they would have to contribute to it.
[16:34.090 --> 16:37.010]  But it would have been interesting to see, you know, more sides of this.
[16:37.730 --> 16:44.750]  Because, as you know, the producers ran away from us as we tried to find them.
[16:45.870 --> 16:48.970]  So, they would have also been pretty interesting to talk to as far as...
[16:48.970 --> 16:53.370]  But I think Miramax just sort of changed their mind on an official level and just...
[16:53.370 --> 16:54.570]  They ran away instead of...
[16:54.570 --> 16:58.290]  Or maybe they were never authorized to talk to us in the first place, is another guess.
[17:00.030 --> 17:01.350]  Other people to talk to?
[17:02.330 --> 17:03.910]  I can't really think of any, can you?
[17:07.710 --> 17:08.470]  Other questions?
[17:10.470 --> 17:10.910]  Comments?
[17:11.690 --> 17:12.130]  Items?
[17:16.660 --> 17:18.320]  Okay, I guess Emmanuel never made it.
[17:18.560 --> 17:19.500]  Sorry about that.
[17:20.920 --> 17:23.680]  We'll be hanging around up here if you want to ask us anything individually.
[17:23.680 --> 17:26.200]  And I'm sure Emmanuel will be here shortly.
[17:26.400 --> 17:26.700]  Maybe.
[17:27.020 --> 17:27.540]  Perhaps.