[00:00.000 --> 00:00.860]  Sorry.
[00:01.460 --> 00:02.500]  My name is Fred.
[00:02.720 --> 00:04.360]  I drew the Big Brother posters.
[00:04.640 --> 00:09.120]  I'm doing an adaptation in comic book format for George Orwell's 1984.
[00:16.750 --> 00:18.110]  Oh, reverse order.
[00:19.090 --> 00:23.930]  I'm benign punk and I'm responsible for the armbands, so...
[00:23.930 --> 00:27.450]  You can blame me when they fall off and you're like, God damn it.
[00:29.830 --> 00:34.370]  Well, at least I'm responsible for the fist on them and thinking that all of you should be wearing them.
[00:35.810 --> 00:41.110]  I did a lot of the propaganda-themed artwork that you see around in the hotel.
[00:41.270 --> 00:41.890]  Or don't.
[00:43.070 --> 00:50.470]  I work in my day job in my other life as a designer and I work for advertising people and corporations and giants.
[00:51.590 --> 00:53.190]  So I'm a propagandist.
[00:55.150 --> 00:56.390]  My name is Laszlo.
[00:56.690 --> 01:05.550]  I write and produce and host a nationally syndicated radio feature called The Technophile, which is on 80 radio stations nationwide, as well as XM satellite radio.
[01:06.630 --> 01:09.290]  And I've also worked in advertising.
[01:09.490 --> 01:17.050]  I used to work in an ad agency creating propaganda and finding out, you know, how it's created.
[01:19.630 --> 01:20.170]  Great.
[01:21.530 --> 01:26.590]  So the first thing, the first point that we want to make is that propaganda is everywhere.
[01:27.930 --> 01:45.450]  All this, all the, the mass media is kind of a very clever form of propaganda, which is unlike the state controlled media of the former Soviet regimes, but produces kind of new means of obtaining some of the same goals.
[01:45.650 --> 01:49.890]  So you won't see a lot of things in the mass media that they're not forbidden to say.
[01:50.110 --> 01:51.410]  They really don't say.
[01:52.070 --> 01:55.030]  And it's not necessarily some kind of great conspiracy.
[01:56.330 --> 02:01.630]  Just this kind of agreement that there's an acceptable realm of discourse from which we do not veer.
[02:02.630 --> 02:14.770]  So as we're talking about some of the examples of propaganda over the course of the panel, I think it's important to keep in mind that the, the most effective propaganda is the stuff that we're not talking about.
[02:15.610 --> 02:18.210]  Because it's just everywhere inherent.
[02:18.450 --> 02:23.830]  I mean, these, these, like, these great banners that we have around, they're so obvious and they're silly and they're fun.
[02:24.470 --> 02:30.510]  But the Bud Light ads blocking the windows on the, on the mezzanine, like, people don't think twice about them.
[02:30.510 --> 02:33.570]  So, so let's begin.
[02:33.790 --> 02:36.590]  I guess first Fred is going to talk about his comic work.
[02:38.910 --> 02:44.050]  The comic book idea came after watching a lot of TV.
[02:46.930 --> 02:47.530]  Yes.
[02:51.180 --> 02:56.040]  And I was just amazed about what was going on in American television.
[02:56.040 --> 02:59.320]  First of all, I may have to mention that I'm from Canada.
[02:59.920 --> 03:03.400]  So, uh, we get a lot of, uh, a lot of French TV.
[03:03.600 --> 03:08.240]  We get a lot of international news, uh, that I don't see in the United States.
[03:08.240 --> 03:12.720]  I was here last year in New York upstate, uh, watched just before the war started.
[03:12.960 --> 03:15.040]  You know, people were down in the streets protesting.
[03:15.700 --> 03:19.280]  And, uh, I was with a client, you know, we were just in front of the TV.
[03:19.280 --> 03:26.240]  And, uh, all they were talking about the whole night was this guy who wrote a book on how to be cool.
[03:27.320 --> 03:29.060]  They were, like, showing this on repeat.
[03:29.340 --> 03:32.380]  And there was this tiny little stream under the TV.
[03:33.160 --> 03:36.980]  At the bottom, it said lots of people protesting, you know, New York City.
[03:37.180 --> 03:38.980]  I bet they told you the weather several times.
[03:39.600 --> 03:40.520]  Yeah, it might be.
[03:41.940 --> 03:43.020]  It was working, so.
[03:44.220 --> 03:49.700]  Um, and, uh, yeah, so, uh, 1984 is a book that I hear about a lot in Canada.
[03:49.700 --> 03:53.720]  It's, uh, mandatory reading in some philosophy courses in CGEP.
[03:53.840 --> 03:54.200]  We got there.
[03:54.640 --> 03:57.540]  So, everywhere, everyone around me had already read it.
[03:57.700 --> 03:59.620]  I just recently read it last year.
[03:59.760 --> 04:09.580]  And I was amazed about the similarities I saw in the book compared to what I see in TV, what I see in the news, what I read on newspapers and the internet.
[04:10.020 --> 04:19.900]  So, I thought, you know, other people got to read this, you know, but I don't have the time to read it, so nobody has the time anymore because everybody's always too busy.
[04:20.500 --> 04:23.120]  So, I thought, you know, hey, let's do it in comic book form.
[04:23.160 --> 04:25.940]  You know, it's easy, it's quick, and, uh, kids love it.
[04:28.820 --> 04:30.960]  Everybody knows the, uh, the big markets with the kids.
[04:31.240 --> 04:32.020]  A lot of dollar.
[04:32.380 --> 04:34.760]  So, what are some of the process of what you've been doing?
[04:35.220 --> 04:39.360]  Well, first of all, I had to get some funding, you know, to pay the rent and eat food.
[04:39.840 --> 04:41.760]  And, uh, well, we were lucky in Canada.
[04:41.920 --> 04:43.660]  We got a lot of, uh, social programs.
[04:44.300 --> 04:47.400]  And, uh, I applied for a grant and it was accepted.
[04:48.200 --> 04:50.780]  So, I can launch the, the project.
[04:51.060 --> 05:05.580]  You know, I've got, like, a couple of months of, uh, good survival, uh, time to get it starting and to, uh, put it up, get a couple of demos running and try to find some magazines and, uh, uh, maybe a publisher who'd want to take it up.
[05:05.720 --> 05:09.660]  So, if you know anybody, uh, I'm presently searching for a publisher.
[05:09.920 --> 05:11.580]  Is it gonna be in comic shops, you think?
[05:12.160 --> 05:12.760]  Uh, eventually.
[05:12.760 --> 05:13.960]  I, I hope so.
[05:14.220 --> 05:14.500]  Definitely.
[05:16.120 --> 05:35.200]  You know, one of the, the things about propaganda, um, it, like Mike was saying, the things that you don't hear, I had some amazingly frustrating times with a gateway laptop, um, sent it back three times over the course of two weeks and lost my temper on the phone numerous times.
[05:35.200 --> 05:47.200]  And so, I started to talk about it on the air, uh, these short, uh, technology news minutes that are on the radio stations, uh, and talking about how much gateway sucks.
[05:47.760 --> 05:55.480]  And I got a call from a radio station in Virginia that said, uh, just so you know, we're not airing those.
[05:56.120 --> 05:59.560]  And I was like, and you know, why people kind of find them to be a little funny.
[05:59.840 --> 06:09.260]  Cause you know, you, most of what you hear on technology, technology journalism or whatever, it's like, there's this new cell phone and there's this other stuff that's really great and it's expensive.
[06:09.260 --> 06:09.880]  Go buy it.
[06:10.360 --> 06:16.200]  Um, so, so when I go on and go, this is rubbish and it's, it's, you know, quite annoying.
[06:16.200 --> 06:20.760]  And they said, you know, gateway spends a lot of, uh, spend some money advertising on the station.
[06:21.000 --> 06:24.400]  So anything that's not, not pro gateway, we're not going to run.
[06:24.960 --> 06:27.860]  Um, so I said, you know, whatever, do what you want to do.
[06:28.280 --> 06:37.060]  Um, hopefully a few of those people out there, you know, would see me babbling about it online on my website as well, but it's, it's things like that.
[06:37.220 --> 06:42.960]  And my, one of my good friends, um, is the DJ for the big rock station in Philly.
[06:43.740 --> 06:47.800]  Um, and I made, he has me on the air like every other day.
[06:48.120 --> 07:01.340]  Um, and I made some comment about Mamiya and he edited it out and he said there, we've been told not to say the word Mamiya on this radio station.
[07:02.000 --> 07:03.340]  And I said, really?
[07:03.540 --> 07:07.340]  And I mean, this is a rock station, you know, that plays like Metallica.
[07:07.920 --> 07:17.760]  Um, so I didn't think that there was a whole lot of forbid, you know, really socially aware folks listening to it anyway, but, um, it's just commercial nonsense.
[07:18.040 --> 07:36.360]  But he said that, that at CBS, um, had told the radio stations that Philly don't talk about Mamiya because when the, you know, if he actually does get the death penalty in terms of, you know, he actually does die, they'd think that Philly's just going to burn down from the riots and they don't want any part of it.
[07:36.460 --> 07:39.560]  So you can't even talk about it, which is just mind boggling to me.
[07:41.700 --> 07:43.820]  Yeah, speaking of censorship...
[07:43.820 --> 07:44.640]  Downstairs.
[07:46.020 --> 07:47.680]  Ronald McDonald has been censored.
[07:49.180 --> 07:50.280]  Yeah, well, it was great.
[07:50.560 --> 08:02.060]  Uh, I, I, uh, I had a couple of, um, panic mode conference coordinators come up to me the other day and say, we have to take your paintings down from the front windows of the Hotel Pennsylvania.
[08:02.060 --> 08:03.400]  That's because we didn't like them, Jen.
[08:03.400 --> 08:03.900]  Yeah.
[08:05.000 --> 08:06.720]  I know they're kind of half-cocked.
[08:06.740 --> 08:08.960]  Now, what was the, the Ronald McDonald one got taken down?
[08:09.260 --> 08:10.480]  They both got taken down.
[08:10.560 --> 08:16.680]  The one that I heard complaints about was the astronaut one, which if any of you have seen, it's at the top of the escalators right now.
[08:16.940 --> 08:23.980]  It depicts an astronaut standing on planet Earth holding an upside-down flag with 51 stars.
[08:23.980 --> 08:34.220]  And, uh, apparently the upside-down flag is more upsetting than George Bush and Ronald McDonald make up standing in front of an Iraq flag.
[08:36.680 --> 08:37.720]  Which is still up.
[08:37.860 --> 08:38.560]  Which is still up.
[08:39.940 --> 08:42.140]  Well, it's, it's in the, it's in the lobby now.
[08:42.240 --> 08:45.440]  But the, the one that was complained about was the upside-down flag.
[08:45.660 --> 08:50.620]  This is the most, um, upsetting thing to the people of New York walking by on 7th Avenue.
[08:50.620 --> 08:57.420]  Apparently the hotel was still getting complaints even after it had been taken down by people who were so offended that it had ever been up.
[08:58.080 --> 09:02.540]  It's kind of unclear what we're supposed to do about this besides get a time machine or something.
[09:02.840 --> 09:03.740]  But, uh...
[09:03.740 --> 09:08.000]  So we'd like everyone not to mention there ever was a poster with an upside-down flag.
[09:10.020 --> 09:23.060]  You know, I think one of the, the big transitions that, that has happened with propaganda is, um, when, when I was, when I was talking about this one time, I actually got to sit down with Walter Cronkite, which is one of the highlights of my career is talking to him,
[09:23.240 --> 09:24.300]  because he's amazing.
[09:24.760 --> 09:40.100]  Um, when propaganda in the news really began to appear in, in, in my mind, is when it moved from, uh, something that every station had to do, it was their duty as a station to have news.
[09:40.100 --> 09:41.260]  And they lost money.
[09:41.400 --> 09:42.740]  The news departments lost money.
[09:43.180 --> 09:51.000]  The transition from losing money in the news department to making money in the news department means that you must target messages to a certain demographic.
[09:51.460 --> 09:57.220]  Whether it's 40-plus wealthy, whether it's extremely conservative, whatever.
[09:57.660 --> 10:01.360]  When you begin targeting news, that means you begin filtering news.
[10:01.600 --> 10:04.400]  And when you're filtering news, you're creating propaganda.
[10:04.740 --> 10:08.940]  Because you're only showing one side of the story that you think that your demographic wants to hear.
[10:09.780 --> 10:28.920]  It's like, I was in Oklahoma visiting relatives a month ago, and I was at a party, and of course, you know, Bush and Carrie came up, and we started talking about it, and there was a lot of things that is in the discourse that I was bringing up that they never heard of,
[10:28.940 --> 10:37.180]  and I said, you people have to be watching Fox News, and they nodded like this, and I was like, because, you know, you haven't heard of any of these things I'm bringing up.
[10:37.180 --> 10:37.840]  They're like, no.
[10:39.140 --> 10:43.620]  So, you know, targeted news, I think, is one of... I don't know how we solve it.
[10:43.860 --> 10:55.740]  I mean, because, you know, you can't really bash commercialism too much, but it's to the point where, you know, when news became entertainment, it's over with.
[10:55.740 --> 11:02.520]  Well, it's a difficult problem, because it's really kind of the art of looking at people as sheep, right?
[11:03.700 --> 11:13.400]  What you have to do is figure out how many people are going to be looking at whatever it is you're producing, and try to figure out what they want to hear.
[11:13.400 --> 11:28.080]  And so, when you're counting heads, instead of dealing with, you know, these are people with human emotions, you're like, well, I got 5,000 people in this demographic, and I got 500,000 people in this demographic, then you have the problem of dealing with people as numbers,
[11:28.120 --> 11:29.780]  which is unavoidable.
[11:29.920 --> 11:39.500]  I mean, obviously, there's so many people that you have to group them, and what's worse, or what's better, depending on what angle you're coming from, is that it works.
[11:39.500 --> 11:40.500]  It's very effective.
[11:40.860 --> 11:46.200]  Like, demographics and stereotypes are everywhere, and they're true.
[11:47.180 --> 11:51.600]  In the sense that you can market to a demographic, you can market to a stereotype.
[11:51.860 --> 11:53.680]  But I think the government has to lead the way, though.
[11:53.880 --> 12:08.980]  I mean, if you look at the BBC, and the amazing news, and they're actually covering this thing, shockingly, And the... but you look at the BBC, I mean, I think a mandate on news has to come from the government.
[12:09.300 --> 12:11.420]  And there was a mandate in this country.
[12:12.840 --> 12:16.480]  All radio stations have to air public service broadcasting.
[12:17.600 --> 12:22.140]  Tomorrow morning, if you're conscious, turn on the radio at 7 o'clock.
[12:22.400 --> 12:27.280]  Every radio station buries their public service programming on Sunday morning.
[12:27.280 --> 12:28.960]  Every radio station in America.
[12:29.480 --> 12:31.980]  Because Sunday morning is the lowest rated day part.
[12:32.800 --> 12:37.080]  Because everybody's hungover in, you know, methadone clinic or whatever.
[12:37.420 --> 12:39.240]  And so... Church.
[12:39.400 --> 12:39.940]  Church.
[12:40.260 --> 12:40.960]  Same thing.
[12:41.120 --> 12:45.660]  And so they... so they... so they... that's where they bury it.
[12:45.840 --> 12:56.920]  And I think that it's... if there's a solution to propaganda and, you know, actually getting real news and all the information out there, it has to be dictated by the government.
[12:56.920 --> 13:10.280]  Because if the commercial landscape is left to its own devices, you're going to get segmented and targeted messages that... that the job is not to... to inform, it's to sell commercials.
[13:10.620 --> 13:12.320]  I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you.
[13:12.480 --> 13:13.080]  I love it.
[13:13.220 --> 13:17.820]  That's an interesting claim you made, Lesla, that the government should be the purveyor of neutrality.
[13:18.220 --> 13:18.760]  Right, yeah.
[13:19.020 --> 13:21.360]  I think the government should get out of propaganda.
[13:22.940 --> 13:24.140]  Out, all the way out.
[13:24.140 --> 13:27.520]  But I think that it's the people who have to regulate the commercial space.
[13:28.060 --> 13:30.960]  And, like... like this man right here, we are the media.
[13:33.280 --> 13:34.320]  This is... yeah.
[13:35.100 --> 13:35.960]  Be the media.
[13:36.740 --> 13:37.140]  Because...
[13:37.760 --> 13:38.800]  It's all of us.
[13:38.900 --> 13:39.820]  And we all have voices.
[13:40.060 --> 13:40.860]  And we all have opinions.
[13:41.180 --> 13:49.040]  And the more people who are out there saying their own stuff and producing their own media, that's how you're going to regulate the commercial space and the government.
[13:49.040 --> 13:54.140]  So, get the small groups out of media and put bigger groups in there.
[13:54.280 --> 14:00.560]  But if the government says that one company can own 1,300 radio stations, I mean, that's a huge issue.
[14:00.580 --> 14:02.380]  Then the government doesn't belong in propaganda.
[14:02.840 --> 14:03.340]  Well, no.
[14:03.400 --> 14:05.760]  The government has to regulate the media, somehow.
[14:06.240 --> 14:10.460]  I think that the people have to regulate the media and the government.
[14:10.780 --> 14:14.500]  I mean, that's what the original setup was, right?
[14:14.580 --> 14:16.880]  We're going to have three branches of government that regulate themselves.
[14:17.140 --> 14:21.520]  And a fourth branch made up of the people and the press who regulate those three.
[14:21.680 --> 14:22.620]  But there have to be rules.
[14:22.840 --> 14:30.360]  I mean, if you have one company that owns 1,300 radio stations, the antithesis of that is that the government sets rules that one company can only own eight stations.
[14:30.360 --> 14:36.360]  The assumption you're making is that we have corporations that own radio stations.
[14:36.980 --> 14:40.160]  These corporations are, of course, a total legal fiction.
[14:40.400 --> 14:44.860]  And we can change that system without making the government do it for us.
[14:45.220 --> 14:52.380]  We can create alternate, and we do, and we'll talk about this especially tomorrow on a panel on Indy Media.
[14:52.620 --> 14:58.300]  We can create alternate media without the government's permission, without corporations' permission.
[14:58.300 --> 15:00.860]  And that's the whole point of checks and balances.
[15:01.340 --> 15:10.040]  And it's very reductive to think that either the corporations control the media or the government does, when there's obviously other means.
[15:10.700 --> 15:13.640]  I also want to return to a previous point that was made.
[15:14.020 --> 15:19.820]  There's this kind of assumption that a lot of people make that neutrality is good or even possible.
[15:21.200 --> 15:23.840]  I've yet to see a neutral newspaper.
[15:23.840 --> 15:26.280]  I think if one existed, it would be very boring.
[15:27.280 --> 15:29.840]  But it would be certainly very long.
[15:30.040 --> 15:34.480]  If you wanted to cover all sides of view, there's more than two sides of view.
[15:34.520 --> 15:38.100]  If you read a newspaper article, there's the person speaking.
[15:38.340 --> 15:42.600]  And if the person speaking isn't from the government, there's the opposing viewpoint.
[15:42.960 --> 15:46.120]  I don't know how many issues there are out there where there's only two viewpoints.
[15:46.780 --> 15:49.620]  But you will read exactly two in every newspaper article.
[15:50.980 --> 15:54.560]  So this notion of neutrality, tell both sides of the story, I don't think it works.
[15:54.760 --> 15:58.300]  I think what I prefer is people who are upfront with their biases.
[15:59.040 --> 16:05.120]  Newspapers in Europe, by and large, have identifiable viewpoints.
[16:05.940 --> 16:10.500]  If you read the such and such paper, it's a left-leaning paper or a right-leaning paper or whatever.
[16:11.060 --> 16:13.600]  And people know about that and can take that into account.
[16:13.800 --> 16:15.520]  It doesn't mean, of course, that you should lie.
[16:16.720 --> 16:22.100]  But this notion that we can be neutral and we must be neutral and this is serving the objective truth.
[16:22.920 --> 16:24.360]  There's many objective truths.
[16:24.620 --> 16:31.700]  And choosing which one is, I think, something that people should be aware that people make conscious decisions about.
[16:35.200 --> 16:36.060]  I disagree.
[16:38.380 --> 16:39.020]  Well then.
[16:40.080 --> 16:41.460]  But what's the solution?
[16:41.460 --> 16:42.780]  Everybody has an agenda.
[16:44.140 --> 16:45.580]  Of course, but...
[16:45.580 --> 16:47.200]  So you're saying, come up front with your agenda.
[16:47.380 --> 16:52.760]  So at the beginning of my article, I should say, I really hate the MPAA.
[16:53.380 --> 16:54.860]  But here's a story about it.
[16:56.200 --> 16:57.320]  Sure, you could do that.
[16:57.600 --> 16:58.560]  That's called a feature.
[16:58.700 --> 16:59.380]  That's not journalism.
[17:00.380 --> 17:04.380]  But you can tell the truth without lying, right?
[17:04.400 --> 17:12.000]  Fox News, they have this giant, ugly banner, which I think is far more offensive than any of Jen's work over there, that says fair and balanced.
[17:14.540 --> 17:15.280]  Maybe they're...
[17:15.280 --> 17:15.720]  I don't know.
[17:15.940 --> 17:21.220]  If you consider balance like the Republicans and the people even further to the right of them, sure, they're fair and they're balanced.
[17:26.600 --> 17:27.600]  I don't know.
[17:27.800 --> 17:29.540]  Well, but to us, they're not fair and balanced.
[17:29.680 --> 17:30.760]  But to some people, they are.
[17:31.500 --> 17:32.300]  It's subjective.
[17:32.880 --> 17:33.400]  So, you know.
[17:38.150 --> 17:39.170]  What about that?
[17:39.310 --> 17:40.990]  Wait, it's a fact, yet it's an opinion.
[17:42.310 --> 17:43.610]  There is a reality there.
[17:43.790 --> 17:44.630]  They're not fair and balanced.
[17:44.910 --> 17:46.470]  All right, who is fair and balanced then?
[17:46.650 --> 17:46.870]  Right.
[17:49.870 --> 17:51.750]  Well, democracy now is not fair and balanced.
[17:51.910 --> 17:53.630]  A lot of my friends work for democracy now.
[17:53.730 --> 17:54.630]  They're very nice people.
[17:54.790 --> 17:56.790]  And they will tell you they are neither fair nor balanced.
[17:56.790 --> 17:57.950]  Right, I've met some of those people.
[17:58.050 --> 17:58.690]  They're not balanced.
[18:16.170 --> 18:17.450]  I agree.
[18:17.710 --> 18:23.110]  I think the responsibility for having fair and balanced information out there is in the reader.
[18:23.350 --> 18:26.830]  I think it's your responsibility to read different viewpoints.
[18:26.830 --> 18:32.410]  It's to read, you know, the media sources that you agree with and the ones that you don't agree with.
[18:34.810 --> 18:42.090]  Well, yeah, I mean, I think that's one of the greatest things that ever happened to getting other viewpoints is the internet.
[18:42.370 --> 18:47.990]  I was being interviewed on a radio station during the war, which I guess we're still during the war or whatever.
[18:49.450 --> 18:52.810]  And they said, you know, what have you been checking out online lately?
[18:52.850 --> 18:55.270]  And I said, you know, I've actually been looking at Al Jazeera.
[18:55.270 --> 18:57.770]  And they're like, what are you looking at that stuff for?
[18:57.870 --> 19:06.290]  And I said, well, look at as many opinions as you can and try to discern your own thought process from there.
[19:06.290 --> 19:17.830]  Because if you take one book or one magazine or one Bible or whatever and say this is the key to everything in life, I think you're setting up your own propaganda filters.
[19:19.030 --> 19:31.190]  I think we're going to open it up to the audience in a minute if you could, you know, raise hands and that sort of like crazy, you know, deterministic nonsense.
[19:31.190 --> 19:31.370]  Makes sense.
[19:31.990 --> 19:32.390]  Okay.
[19:32.630 --> 19:34.110]  Well, you can walk around with it.
[19:34.390 --> 19:34.510]  Yeah.
[19:34.590 --> 19:35.370]  Why don't you...
[19:35.370 --> 19:36.370]  When you do QA.
[19:36.610 --> 19:38.090]  Do some work, dude.
[19:38.270 --> 19:38.590]  Yeah.
[19:39.290 --> 19:39.630]  Lazy.
[19:40.290 --> 19:40.590]  All right.
[19:42.230 --> 19:42.630]  Um...
[19:43.790 --> 19:44.650]  Let's open it up.
[19:44.750 --> 19:44.950]  All right.
[19:44.950 --> 19:45.550]  Let's open it up.
[19:45.790 --> 19:45.930]  Yeah.
[19:46.050 --> 19:47.450]  I mean, it's just...
[19:47.450 --> 19:53.430]  Because they're attempting to film this and basically on the film it's going to be like, wah, wah, wah, wah.
[19:53.430 --> 19:54.310]  Uh...
[19:54.310 --> 19:55.050]  You're wrong, sir.
[19:55.330 --> 19:56.370]  Wah, wah, wah, wah.
[19:56.810 --> 19:57.170]  Okay.
[19:59.830 --> 20:00.890]  Let's start here, yeah.
[20:01.050 --> 20:02.650]  Is it on?
[20:02.830 --> 20:03.350]  Hold on.
[20:04.750 --> 20:05.090]  Is it?
[20:05.290 --> 20:05.810]  Yeah.
[20:06.070 --> 20:08.250]  I just had one quick question on your 1984.
[20:09.090 --> 20:10.610]  Aren't there copyright laws?
[20:10.870 --> 20:11.070]  Do you...
[20:11.070 --> 20:14.330]  Have you got permission to translate it into a cartoon?
[20:15.150 --> 20:15.670]  Um...
[20:15.670 --> 20:16.210]  Good question.
[20:17.530 --> 20:23.410]  George Orwell's work is a public domain in Canada, Russia, and Australia right now.
[20:23.890 --> 20:27.810]  But I read on the internet that they're trying to buy it up in Australia.
[20:28.470 --> 20:31.610]  So you might have to wait a while to see it here.
[20:33.430 --> 20:37.530]  We'll have to, like, smuggle it in or something, you know, with the Cuban cigars.
[20:38.930 --> 20:39.190]  Yeah.
[20:41.770 --> 20:42.970]  We need you on the microphone.
[20:43.750 --> 20:44.490]  Yeah, hi.
[20:44.630 --> 20:47.650]  I just wanted to come back to what Laszlo said about the government.
[20:48.010 --> 20:50.990]  The government's being hijacked by these corporate interests.
[20:50.990 --> 20:56.290]  So I agree that there do have to be rules, but it's not the people who are setting the rules.
[20:57.010 --> 21:00.670]  You know, freedom of the press belongs to those who own the press, right?
[21:00.970 --> 21:14.590]  So the way we can counteract that is somehow register the hundred million Americans who aren't registered to vote, and maybe bring the government back, you know, so it does represent what people want.
[21:14.990 --> 21:18.950]  And we can get some more diversity and maybe set some rules that way.
[21:19.410 --> 21:20.510]  I mean, I agree.
[21:20.910 --> 21:25.710]  They disagree with me, but I think the government fundamentally has to set up some kind of game plan and grid.
[21:26.090 --> 21:27.310]  Yeah, but who is the government?
[21:27.470 --> 21:28.050]  The corporate interests?
[21:28.170 --> 21:28.910]  Well, they did.
[21:28.910 --> 21:31.670]  And the grid is freedom of the press, right?
[21:31.890 --> 21:40.590]  And the whole point is that, you know, the different branches are supposed to regulate each other, and the press is supposed to report on all of this and regulate the three branches.
[21:40.750 --> 21:49.810]  So what checks and balances means is when one guy goes out of whack, then the other guy's got to come in and say, you're going out of whack, it's time to fix this, right?
[21:50.030 --> 21:59.210]  So if the government and the media are all out of whack, then it's the people and the media's responsibility to say, whoa, you're out of whack, let's fix this.
[21:59.510 --> 22:13.130]  Yeah, I also wanted to mention that in early American history, the government subsidized the postal service so that people could send their newspapers out for free or at a very low price.
[22:13.130 --> 22:22.690]  And there were thousands of newspapers all over the United States with very strong biases, but, you know, at least we had a big marketplace of ideas.
[22:23.630 --> 22:34.790]  And so I think there is a point here to, you know, government having an influence here, but I think we have to pay attention to who's hijacked the government, and we've got to get it back again.
[22:34.930 --> 22:37.110]  And now they just give discounts to the J.Crew catalog.
[22:41.370 --> 22:46.150]  Well, the internet is very cheap to publish on, cheaper than the paper, forget about postage.
[22:46.390 --> 22:48.330]  So there's maybe some hope.
[22:48.650 --> 23:06.410]  Well, and back to, you know, being the media, if you've been to the previous conferences, and Jello Biafra says it over and over about being the media, I mean, blogs, as dopey as they are, and I love going to one of the big blogging websites and just pulling up a random one and reading it.
[23:06.510 --> 23:07.670]  It's like, I got my hair cut today.
[23:07.850 --> 23:08.610]  It's like, brilliant.
[23:10.470 --> 23:22.830]  But some of the ones that are well done are spreading knowledge, and I think a lot of times people are more apt to pop around on those and share ideas and opinions than they are to just sit and read the New York Times homepage.
[23:24.630 --> 23:30.150]  Laszlo, you were commenting on whether government should be regulating the media and that stuff.
[23:30.390 --> 23:38.230]  I think that can be summarized by just saying that democracy is conducive to capitalism, but in return capitalism is not conducive to democracy.
[23:39.990 --> 23:45.010]  And I think I might be stealing that quote from someone else.
[23:46.270 --> 24:00.290]  Mike, you were talking about how in some countries it's obvious that people who consume left-leaning media are aware of it, and people who consume right-leaning media are aware of it.
[24:00.470 --> 24:12.810]  And in this country, what I've noticed is people who consume left-leaning media are very much aware of it, but people who consume right-leaning media think that it's neutral.
[24:12.810 --> 24:18.090]  And how many times can you repeat, fair and balanced, before people start believing it?
[24:18.410 --> 24:26.670]  And that's the thing, is that people who watch Fox as their primary news source, they don't consider it to be right-leaning.
[24:26.670 --> 24:29.210]  They honestly believe that it's neutral.
[24:29.410 --> 24:31.870]  And that, I think, is the dangerous part.
[24:32.010 --> 24:37.550]  Whereas if people just looked at it and said, yeah, it's right-leaning, but that's what I watch, then it would be less dangerous.
[24:37.810 --> 24:39.010]  Who am I to say that they're wrong?
[24:39.170 --> 24:39.930]  I mean, seriously.
[24:40.270 --> 24:41.710]  All these people believe it.
[24:42.410 --> 24:44.130]  You know, I certainly have my biases.
[24:44.450 --> 24:46.490]  I think Fox is, like, unwatchable.
[24:48.870 --> 24:56.310]  But, you know, there's many viewpoints, and you can't inherently reject any of them as invalid.
[24:56.650 --> 24:57.310]  That's great.
[24:57.530 --> 24:58.490]  As stupid as they are.
[25:01.050 --> 25:03.990]  The strategy is, repetition is truth.
[25:04.610 --> 25:06.990]  How many times have I heard that one?
[25:07.030 --> 25:07.510]  Repetition is truth.
[25:07.850 --> 25:08.690]  Repetition is truth.
[25:08.690 --> 25:09.250]  Repetition is truth.
[25:12.470 --> 25:20.970]  And that's, like, that's sort of the strategy behind any propaganda campaign, whether it's fair and balanced, or whether it's left-leaning, or whatever.
[25:21.250 --> 25:25.930]  So, if you hear anything repeated too many times, it's time to start asking questions.
[25:26.150 --> 25:36.350]  You know, and in terms of the propaganda posters, when we were doing research for this conference, and actually there's some people in attendance that helped work on one of the...
[25:36.350 --> 25:40.810]  I don't know if you saw the 20th anniversary T-shirt that is partially in Russian.
[25:41.190 --> 25:47.110]  One of the designers of that shirt is in this room over there, Jamie, of visual goodness.
[25:47.110 --> 25:55.030]  But when looking through all of that stuff and looking at propaganda posters from days of old is really interesting.
[25:55.810 --> 26:02.990]  And there's a guy named, I think his name is Micah Wright, that's doing the Propaganda Remix project.
[26:02.990 --> 26:08.410]  And he takes old war posters and makes them applicable to today's events.
[26:08.410 --> 26:10.730]  You can see some of them downstairs on the listening.
[26:11.150 --> 26:11.150]  Yes.
[26:11.150 --> 26:11.430]  Right.
[26:11.690 --> 26:22.710]  And I was talking to him, and what's really bizarre about propaganda is when you go so far out that people don't see it.
[26:22.810 --> 26:28.370]  I mean, because to some of us, they're so blatantly obvious making, you know, an ironic statement.
[26:28.910 --> 26:36.150]  But he will have people come to his pages and send him emails that are amazing to read, because they absolutely agree with him.
[26:36.150 --> 26:37.950]  They're like, right on, man.
[26:38.350 --> 26:39.970]  You know, shut him down.
[26:40.150 --> 26:42.830]  Anybody that doesn't believe us should just move out of the country.
[26:43.130 --> 26:58.610]  And it's so funny when you throw something out there that's kind of ironic and poking fun and is propaganda, an obvious propaganda, but people seize on it because they believe the same thing.
[27:00.090 --> 27:04.670]  I just wanted to make a point about government regulation and media.
[27:04.670 --> 27:08.790]  We actually live in a society right now where the media is regulated by the government.
[27:09.290 --> 27:13.270]  And I think part of the debate is really the people being able to inform that debate.
[27:13.430 --> 27:17.350]  Right now, media regulation is all about major media controlling that.
[27:17.470 --> 27:18.350]  I mean, they set the policy.
[27:18.490 --> 27:24.890]  They set basically the rules of the FCC, you know, the frameworks that they've set up to regulate them.
[27:24.890 --> 27:28.790]  So, the people, us, we need to be able to inform that.
[27:29.050 --> 27:35.030]  And, you know, it would be great to get rid of government intervention in the media altogether, but that's not a reality right now.
[27:35.130 --> 27:44.910]  And so, really, it's shifting a balance away from the mass media and those who control it to the people being able to actually control that framework, that agenda.
[27:44.910 --> 27:49.730]  So, I believe there's a site, freepress.net, that is really big on media activism.
[27:50.110 --> 27:52.090]  And I would definitely encourage people to check that out.
[27:52.210 --> 28:09.710]  And a lot of that has to do with localism and going to, I think there's these various FCC meetings happening around the country where, was it, Michael Powell has finally buckled under to pressure from, like, this recent round of media stuff that's been happening in the past year.
[28:09.710 --> 28:11.130]  But, anyway, freepress.net.
[28:11.490 --> 28:16.790]  And also, as far as proper propaganda goes, I have some stickers that are very reminiscent of that poster.
[28:16.790 --> 28:17.510]  You're not putting them up.
[28:17.650 --> 28:18.110]  What's that?
[28:18.190 --> 28:19.050]  You're not putting them up.
[28:19.070 --> 28:19.530]  I'm not, actually.
[28:19.530 --> 28:23.850]  I don't know if these are the same ones you're talking about, but I'll give you these and tell me.
[28:24.870 --> 28:25.350]  Oh, nice.
[28:25.410 --> 28:26.050]  No, I haven't.
[28:26.050 --> 28:27.210]  These aren't the ones I've seen.
[28:27.390 --> 28:27.850]  Yeah, here you go.
[28:28.510 --> 28:30.070]  They say fearbush.com.
[28:31.010 --> 28:31.710]  This is great.
[28:32.230 --> 28:39.550]  He's wearing one of those Nazi military, the two lighting bolts on his cap, his golf cap.
[28:40.190 --> 28:41.070]  This is...
[28:41.550 --> 28:43.050]  He's got a little Hitler mustache.
[28:43.450 --> 28:44.490]  He's really cute.
[28:44.710 --> 28:45.710]  What's interesting about...
[28:46.430 --> 28:47.430]  Yeah, that's the fairy brother.
[28:47.430 --> 28:48.550]  I forgot what the...
[28:48.550 --> 28:53.370]  what it is, but it's like, if a discussion goes on long enough, somebody's gonna be compared to Hitler.
[28:54.150 --> 28:54.470]  What...
[28:54.470 --> 28:55.730]  Have you heard about that rule?
[28:56.130 --> 28:57.070]  It's the end of a conversation.
[28:57.410 --> 28:57.810]  Right.
[28:58.330 --> 28:58.770]  So...
[28:58.770 --> 29:14.950]  And it's interesting that, you know, moveon.org, which has a clear agenda, when they had that contest where people put together short films, anti-Bush, yeah, the Bush in 30 seconds thing, that a couple of people brought up the hit, you know, brought up comparisons to Hitler.
[29:15.210 --> 29:24.870]  But if you go to the Republican National Convention site, and the Bush re-election campaigns, they're comparing Gore and other people...
[29:24.870 --> 29:24.970]  Carrie.
[29:25.710 --> 29:31.570]  And the whole group to Hitler interspersing video from different Democratic candidates with Hitler.
[29:31.850 --> 29:32.350]  So, I mean, it's like...
[29:32.350 --> 29:33.310]  You gotta fight Hitler with Hitler.
[29:33.550 --> 29:34.690]  Both sides, I mean...
[29:34.690 --> 29:36.630]  It's an easy extreme alternative.
[29:37.770 --> 29:44.830]  I think your argument starts to get lost as soon as you start making Hitler references, because it's just so...
[29:44.830 --> 29:45.970]  The old Usenet rule.
[29:46.230 --> 29:46.350]  Right.
[29:46.370 --> 29:47.850]  The first one to bring up Hitler loses.
[29:47.850 --> 29:53.310]  You reminded me, actually, of an anecdote, which is only tangentially related, but I'll sell it anyway.
[29:53.770 --> 29:57.650]  The Republicans are coming to town, unfortunately, in a month or so.
[29:58.510 --> 30:03.290]  And I thought it would be kind of fun to cover this convention for 2600 Magazine.
[30:04.390 --> 30:06.670]  So I went to this kind of media walkthrough.
[30:06.770 --> 30:10.550]  I got a nice tour of the Hotel Pennsylvania, courtesy of the Republicans.
[30:10.930 --> 30:14.350]  And so I filled out the form for press credentials.
[30:14.350 --> 30:25.290]  And there's this office somewhere in the Senate building, which is in charge of media credentialing for the Democratic and Republican conventions.
[30:25.290 --> 30:29.610]  And they have this kind of arbitrary power to decide who's media and who isn't.
[30:29.890 --> 30:36.590]  And I was told that if you work for a quarterly publication, then you are not media and please don't come.
[30:37.590 --> 30:42.610]  So there's this kind of arbitrary division, who's allowed in, who isn't.
[30:43.410 --> 30:46.430]  They never heard of 2600 Magazine or something.
[30:46.550 --> 30:49.610]  So they just kind of rejected us based on some silliness.
[30:50.290 --> 30:56.310]  The Independent Media Center, on the other hand, was on the blacklist and was told to talk to the Secret Service as soon as they showed up.
[30:56.310 --> 30:58.750]  So, you know...
[30:58.750 --> 30:59.630]  Arbitrary, right.
[30:59.810 --> 31:01.470]  It's very silly.
[31:03.330 --> 31:06.030]  So I got two things to talk about relating to MoveOn.
[31:06.130 --> 31:08.870]  The first having to do with this commercial on Bush's website.
[31:09.990 --> 31:21.590]  So initially, yes, there were two commercials that were submitted to the Bush in 30 Seconds contest on MoveOn's website that made comparisons to Bush and Hitler or, you know, the Bush administration and the Nazi regime.
[31:22.270 --> 31:24.190]  Neither of those commercials were produced by MoveOn.
[31:24.310 --> 31:27.110]  They were produced by independent individuals who were submitting to the contest.
[31:27.350 --> 31:34.730]  Though one of the commercials had, at the end, in order to save the people at MoveOn time should the commercial be selected, the word sponsored by MoveOn.org.
[31:34.990 --> 31:44.430]  The video that's interspersed of Hitler in the commercial on Bush's website is actually the footage from that commercial submission to MoveOn's website.
[31:44.530 --> 31:44.790]  Yeah, it's too weird.
[31:44.790 --> 31:48.650]  And so what they're trying to do is show, oh, see what these Democrats say about us?
[31:48.650 --> 31:52.070]  See how, you know, they make these absurd contentions that were like the Nazis.
[31:52.690 --> 32:04.510]  But the problem is the majority of people, I mean, how many here know, you know, what happened with this whole MoveOn controversy with this commercial, you know, these two commercials actually originally appearing on MoveOn's website?
[32:04.870 --> 32:06.470]  Very few people actually know about that.
[32:06.550 --> 32:13.690]  So when you actually see the commercial, you're getting this impression that they're making a comparison to the Democrats, you know, between the Democrats and the Nazis.
[32:13.690 --> 32:19.830]  So, like, anybody who's aware of it, like, understands that they're trying to make this, you know, not make that suggestion.
[32:19.830 --> 32:24.230]  But at the same time, anybody who isn't aware, which is the majority of the public, is getting that impression from it.
[32:24.350 --> 32:26.950]  And so they're doing precisely what they criticize the Democrats for.
[32:27.410 --> 32:30.090]  You know, I'm confused already.
[32:30.290 --> 32:35.690]  And you've just told me, and I've already forgotten the exact details of who did what, which is exactly what they want, right?
[32:37.870 --> 32:40.170]  The second thing is regarding media ownership.
[32:40.710 --> 32:42.930]  There was another incident relating to MoveOn.org.
[32:43.730 --> 32:48.610]  The winner of the Bush in 30 Seconds commercial contest was supposed to have their commercial aired during the Super Bowl.
[32:48.770 --> 32:50.450]  And CBS refused to air the commercial.
[32:51.030 --> 32:56.170]  The reason they said that they wouldn't air the commercial was because they didn't want to do any type of political ads during the Super Bowl.
[32:56.330 --> 33:02.030]  In the meantime, they ran commercials from the Office of National Drug Control Policy and also a commercial from Boeing, if I recall correctly.
[33:02.710 --> 33:06.470]  So there was clearly, like, an agenda set for who they would allow on.
[33:06.670 --> 33:08.130]  At the same time, there's also another thing.
[33:08.310 --> 33:15.330]  They ceased the presentation of the Reagan's miniseries that made, you know, Ronald Reagan look very evil, bumped it off to Showtime.
[33:15.610 --> 33:24.910]  At the same time, Viacom, CBS's parent company, had a 38% stake in the national market, which was over the FCC limit for what was permissible.
[33:25.150 --> 33:38.130]  So the FCC tried to bump up the media ownership limit to 45%, and then, you know, concerned citizens freaked out, contacted their congressman, and their senators said, no way, you know, like, there shouldn't be, like, media ownership over 35%, hell, even over 25%.
[33:38.130 --> 33:40.070]  And so Congress lowered the level.
[33:40.170 --> 33:52.610]  And then what happened was, after the Super Bowl, the Senate passed through, attached as a writer to another bill, an increase on the cap to 39%, so that Viacom was able to keep, you know, their share of the national market.
[33:52.610 --> 34:06.770]  I tell you what's really interesting about media ownership and censorship is, I don't know if anybody in here listens to Howard Stern, but I, with all the cheerleading that he did for the Iraq War, I never thought we would be where we are today.
[34:07.130 --> 34:18.170]  And as soon as he's, as soon as he started getting clamped down on by the FCC, he was, went out anti-Bush, and Clear Channel shut him down.
[34:18.630 --> 34:24.850]  Clear Channel had been defending Howard Stern left and right, because they were making amazing money on the markets that he's in.
[34:25.350 --> 34:33.650]  And they flipped 180 degrees, knocked Howard Stern off in those markets, and then just said, you know, that he's offensive.
[34:34.910 --> 34:37.090]  And it was right after he started going against Bush.
[34:37.090 --> 34:40.410]  And so now we've got Howard Stern, who is complaining...
[34:40.410 --> 34:42.110]  Who's been offensive for a decade.
[34:42.310 --> 34:48.250]  Well, but who's complaining, he's complaining about Clear Channel owning all the radio stations and how he's getting censored.
[34:48.430 --> 34:52.470]  Meanwhile, his show is responsible for taking morning shows.
[34:52.730 --> 35:00.110]  There are more morning shows that have been fired nationwide because they bring in a, you know, just hook up a satellite dish and feed him in.
[35:00.270 --> 35:06.050]  But I, it's just such a, such a bizarre situation that, and the Republicans laughed it off at first.
[35:06.050 --> 35:12.750]  But I think that they're starting to really see the effect that, that, that Howard Stern could actually throw this next election.
[35:12.970 --> 35:24.690]  Because you talk about propaganda, you listen to a show now anymore, and it's not, it's like 2%, you know, lesbians, and 98% screaming about the FCC censorship and, and what's going on with this country.
[35:24.850 --> 35:25.530]  It's just bizarre.
[35:25.890 --> 35:27.550]  Yeah, well, it's a good point.
[35:28.270 --> 35:32.110]  I mean, if Howard Stern is distracted from lesbians, we have a problem, right?
[35:34.450 --> 35:39.210]  I want to make a point that situation like in places in China is much worse.
[35:40.050 --> 35:44.170]  You know, they, the government controls everything about media.
[35:44.350 --> 35:45.810]  They control the propaganda system.
[35:46.010 --> 35:51.150]  They have a department, administration called the Department of Propaganda.
[35:51.150 --> 35:52.410]  The Ministry of Truth.
[35:54.450 --> 36:03.190]  The people there really don't have choice because like for internet, for example, they block even sites like CNN.com and Washington Post, New York Times and stuff like that.
[36:03.190 --> 36:15.270]  And they have TV stations like people watch like BBC, British Broadcast Corporation.
[36:15.950 --> 36:22.650]  And when, when BBC has some report they don't like, they shut down, they shut down satellite for that channel for the whole day.
[36:23.250 --> 36:25.350]  And it's really, really bad.
[36:25.470 --> 36:26.810]  You talk about private radio here.
[36:26.950 --> 36:29.210]  If you set up a radio over there, you'll be killed.
[36:29.750 --> 36:30.230]  Literally.
[36:31.010 --> 36:31.290]  Wow.
[36:31.290 --> 36:34.630]  And we have friends who went, went to China.
[36:34.630 --> 36:37.650]  He was helping to try to set up something like that.
[36:37.850 --> 36:39.290]  And he was killed for three years.
[36:39.750 --> 36:40.390]  U.S. citizen.
[36:40.970 --> 36:45.570]  Even though he's a Chinese, Chinese born like me and U.S. citizen.
[36:45.850 --> 36:47.210]  He's killed for three years.
[36:47.690 --> 36:47.990]  Wow.
[36:48.250 --> 36:53.690]  I heard they're going to start filtering text messages too because they're afraid that people are spreading dissenting opinions via text message.
[36:53.710 --> 36:55.890]  Well, they have been doing that all the time actually.
[36:56.190 --> 36:59.950]  Even, even if you encrypt the message, they still have ways to do it somehow.
[36:59.950 --> 37:07.350]  So, if you send a text message to somebody that says that the current party sucks, that'll just disappear to the ether?
[37:07.610 --> 37:09.090]  It disappears in the ether, yeah.
[37:09.470 --> 37:11.170]  Well, it probably disappears to a file with your name on it.
[37:11.170 --> 37:13.950]  For websites and proxy, they block it.
[37:14.310 --> 37:15.230]  And if you...
[37:15.230 --> 37:20.550]  Actually, like, there are many network bars in China and they have surveillance system.
[37:20.550 --> 37:22.170]  If that thing appears on your...
[37:22.170 --> 37:26.070]  Even app decryption, if it appears on a screen, somehow they can recognize it.
[37:26.210 --> 37:27.490]  And there's an alarm there.
[37:28.510 --> 37:29.370]  Just turn on an alarm.
[37:29.790 --> 37:29.830]  Wow.
[37:30.090 --> 37:31.310]  This is crazy.
[37:31.450 --> 37:32.510]  Did Cisco sell the police devices?
[37:33.750 --> 37:33.810]  Yeah.
[37:34.730 --> 37:36.170]  Did Cisco sell the police devices?
[37:36.650 --> 37:36.950]  Oh, great.
[37:37.050 --> 37:39.170]  Well, I'll be selling my Cisco stock Monday.
[37:39.650 --> 37:39.790]  Indeed, yeah.
[37:41.710 --> 37:42.150]  Now...
[37:42.150 --> 37:43.190]  So, how do you...
[37:43.190 --> 37:44.370]  Do you currently live in China?
[37:44.370 --> 37:45.510]  I currently...
[37:45.510 --> 37:46.750]  I'm living here.
[37:46.950 --> 37:47.250]  Okay.
[37:47.430 --> 37:50.730]  I have friends and relatives living there and...
[37:50.730 --> 37:52.030]  How do you get around the propaganda?
[37:52.210 --> 37:52.750]  I mean, how do you...
[37:52.750 --> 37:54.570]  How do people learn out what the real deal is?
[37:54.650 --> 37:55.110]  Or do they just not?
[37:55.130 --> 37:56.390]  In China, it's very hard.
[37:56.530 --> 37:57.170]  Very hard.
[37:57.350 --> 37:58.810]  Because everything is controlled by government.
[37:59.270 --> 38:00.410]  And they really...
[38:00.410 --> 38:02.190]  You know, they really twist everything.
[38:02.950 --> 38:04.570]  In the U.S., it's much easier.
[38:05.330 --> 38:07.570]  Because we have a lot of new sources.
[38:07.770 --> 38:09.750]  Like, you suggest we watch everything.
[38:09.910 --> 38:12.710]  That's why I'm here to, you know, to talk about this.
[38:12.710 --> 38:15.810]  Because I know the people there are left in the blind.
[38:17.570 --> 38:21.690]  And everybody here, if you can help to penetrate the Chinese firewall.
[38:22.110 --> 38:22.930]  You are a great hero.
[38:23.850 --> 38:25.690]  If I can just drop a quick plug.
[38:25.950 --> 38:32.030]  If anybody listening can translate 1984 to Chinese, I'd like to make a couple of PDFs of it.
[38:32.110 --> 38:34.410]  Just contact me, 1984comic.com.
[38:35.090 --> 38:40.330]  Yeah, what a great reminder that government should stay out of propaganda and media regulation.
[38:42.690 --> 38:45.650]  I mean, it's one thing to get your painting taken out of the front of a hotel.
[38:45.650 --> 38:48.150]  It's another thing to get killed for saying something on the radio.
[38:49.470 --> 38:56.610]  Well, I mean, what else can people do, do you think, in terms of turning things around in China?
[38:57.090 --> 38:58.870]  I mean, is it trade sanctions?
[38:59.070 --> 39:00.510]  Is it...what is it?
[39:02.250 --> 39:02.810]  Okay...
[39:02.810 --> 39:03.590]  They make...
[39:04.430 --> 39:04.990]  Okay...
[39:04.990 --> 39:08.450]  In China now, the economy is going pretty fast.
[39:08.730 --> 39:11.930]  And people just, I think just get very numb about it.
[39:12.270 --> 39:15.750]  And they don't have the concept of what is freedom.
[39:16.030 --> 39:19.770]  And they don't have the concept of looking around for other news sources.
[39:20.670 --> 39:21.690]  To the point.
[39:23.490 --> 39:29.810]  It's, like, when I was in college, I read English textbooks.
[39:30.270 --> 39:40.170]  From English textbooks, I know, like, Jefferson's, you know, talk, you know, Declaration of Independence and those kind of things.
[39:40.450 --> 39:43.950]  And I was inspired by the English textbooks.
[39:44.330 --> 39:46.930]  But other than that, that's because I was learning English.
[39:47.270 --> 39:51.090]  Other than that, everything was communist stories.
[39:51.410 --> 39:53.290]  And you don't know anything outside.
[39:55.370 --> 39:56.650]  It's the same even today.
[39:56.950 --> 40:00.570]  They, it looks about, look like they're more open.
[40:01.010 --> 40:07.770]  But still, the way they educate people, the way they control the mind, their minds, it's about the same.
[40:08.250 --> 40:13.410]  I think that's the only place left in the world before, you know, there's Russia and Eastern Europe and so on.
[40:13.550 --> 40:20.050]  That's, but now, that's about the only place left in the world that still has such government control.
[40:21.750 --> 40:22.870]  It's really bad there.
[40:24.510 --> 40:26.590]  Well, hopefully, it'll turn around at some point.
[40:26.770 --> 40:31.610]  I think Hong Kong might, might be an issue that makes some change there.
[40:31.710 --> 40:34.030]  Because I don't think Hong Kong's gonna go down without a fight.
[40:35.130 --> 40:35.490]  Yeah.
[40:35.490 --> 40:37.650]  Yeah, that's... So, thank you.
[40:42.150 --> 40:42.510]  Hello.
[40:42.510 --> 40:45.210]  I just wanted to make, well, two questions really.
[40:46.110 --> 40:51.870]  The first question is, I wondered whether we could expand on the word propaganda as opposed to censorship.
[40:52.050 --> 40:53.470]  Because so far, we've been talking about censorship.
[40:53.610 --> 40:55.490]  I'd be interested to hear what you have to say about propaganda.
[40:55.490 --> 41:00.190]  When I was 16 in high school, my English teacher, I guess she's got an agenda, propaganda.
[41:00.190 --> 41:04.430]  But her thing was to try and educate us as to the definition of propaganda.
[41:04.850 --> 41:10.910]  And she said things like, propaganda is when they take a complicated issue and make it very simple, black and white.
[41:11.930 --> 41:17.410]  Propaganda is when they take a complex social dynamic and turn it into, you know, us versus them.
[41:17.410 --> 41:19.550]  Well, that's a distraction tactic right now.
[41:19.550 --> 41:24.130]  You know, like, turning things into an ethnic thing or an us versus them thing.
[41:24.370 --> 41:31.490]  And propaganda is when they take something, you know, political and turn it into a very personal, you know, individual person.
[41:31.650 --> 41:51.270]  Like, either the leader is an individual as opposed to a huge state apparatus or the person who perhaps represents, you know, like, some poor Bosnian mother with a baby in her arms and, you know, like sort of, or, you know, you know, like a Marine having his head cut off is very,
[41:51.410 --> 41:52.190]  very emotional.
[41:52.450 --> 41:53.890]  And it's very, very individual.
[41:54.630 --> 42:02.830]  And, you know, obviously both sides are doing that propaganda there, but it's, that's what propaganda is, as opposed to, you know, censorship.
[42:02.990 --> 42:04.350]  And obviously censorship is part of it as well.
[42:04.690 --> 42:08.850]  So I wondered if you guys could expand on that, if you had any comments, but I also want to ask another question.
[42:09.450 --> 42:09.790]  So...
[42:10.290 --> 42:15.390]  I think it's difficult to, to discern what the difference between propaganda and censorship is.
[42:15.490 --> 42:22.890]  I mean, if, if, if a news station is not reporting the full truth about Iraq, because they want to keep, you know, somebody embedded or what, or whatever.
[42:22.990 --> 42:24.670]  I mean, is that censorship or is it propaganda?
[42:24.990 --> 42:25.670]  Well, that's censorship.
[42:25.890 --> 42:28.610]  They're two, they're two sides of a coin, kind of.
[42:28.730 --> 42:35.190]  I mean, propaganda is, of course, the active part of going out and expressing an opinion.
[42:35.490 --> 42:40.950]  Of course, withholding opinions and making sure that other people can't express their opposing opinions is, is right.
[42:41.410 --> 42:43.250]  On the, it's two sides of the same coin.
[42:44.010 --> 42:50.150]  Um, when I was, when I was taught propaganda, I had a propaganda unit in my eighth grade English class.
[42:50.450 --> 43:01.130]  And, uh, what they taught us, which I, later when I became a philosophy major in college and then dropped out, um, was logical fallacies.
[43:01.350 --> 43:04.310]  I, I guess my eighth grade, um, teacher had it kind of mixed up.
[43:04.410 --> 43:11.070]  But what, what we covered in that, that unit was, um, things like the ad hominem attack and straw man attack.
[43:11.330 --> 43:16.350]  And basically, these are ways of approaching an argument.
[43:16.530 --> 43:21.930]  And these are different, um, methods, techniques that you can use to direct people's attention.
[43:21.930 --> 43:23.550]  You know, over here, over here.
[43:23.750 --> 43:24.190]  Right.
[43:24.370 --> 43:25.250]  Let's talk about this.
[43:25.410 --> 43:28.110]  Let's start this kind of, um, argument.
[43:28.650 --> 43:31.370]  And, um, censorship is, is one of those.
[43:31.770 --> 43:37.670]  So, um, what you can do when you want to spread your opinion is say, this is my opinion.
[43:37.910 --> 43:39.330]  Or, these guys are liars.
[43:39.610 --> 43:41.370]  Or, these guys have a bad argument.
[43:41.650 --> 43:44.450]  Or, these guys, you know, you're not even gonna hear them.
[43:44.910 --> 43:45.990]  So, it's related.
[43:45.990 --> 43:49.310]  I think people, I think people, you know, sometimes talk about the good old days of media.
[43:49.690 --> 43:55.610]  And, and, you know, perhaps in the good old days, there were some rules of standard discourse that you weren't really allowed to do the ad hominem attack.
[43:55.730 --> 43:56.230]  And you weren't, you know.
[43:56.610 --> 43:58.090]  Whereas, nowadays, it seems like anything goes.
[43:58.210 --> 43:58.830]  And I think that's interesting.
[43:59.010 --> 43:59.690]  Can I get to my other question?
[44:00.230 --> 44:01.930]  Yeah, quick, because we're running out of time.
[44:02.070 --> 44:03.230]  Can I make a point?
[44:03.510 --> 44:10.450]  Um, if you, if you went downstairs to the movie room last night, you saw some, uh, North Korean propaganda.
[44:10.490 --> 44:12.290]  And it's very, very, it's very silly.
[44:12.290 --> 44:22.050]  I mean, there's like these people, a million people marching through the streets of Pyongyang to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the great dear leader, whatever they do in Pyongyang.
[44:22.350 --> 44:24.550]  And, uh, that wouldn't work here, right?
[44:24.650 --> 44:26.830]  Because we're, we're more savvy than that.
[44:27.330 --> 44:29.390]  Um, so I think...
[44:30.110 --> 44:30.430]  I don't know.
[44:30.670 --> 44:31.510]  No, it wouldn't work.
[44:31.950 --> 44:33.150]  It wouldn't work.
[44:33.310 --> 44:36.170]  It's, it was just, if you saw this thing, it's totally absurd.
[44:36.170 --> 44:38.590]  But, so, so we're more savvy than that.
[44:38.790 --> 44:41.990]  Uh, but the, the, the propagandists are more savvy than that, too.
[44:42.150 --> 44:44.430]  I mean, so they, they come up with stuff that does work.
[44:44.670 --> 44:54.210]  And the goals and methods are largely the same, even if it doesn't fit into, like, the three simple rules for determining propaganda, the first of which is, is no simple rules or something like that.
[44:55.430 --> 44:56.750]  Um, can we get the next question?
[44:56.910 --> 44:57.730]  Because we've got literally, like, a couple of weeks left.
[44:57.730 --> 45:01.190]  The next question is, we, I hear a lot of people always talking about, you know, be the media.
[45:01.370 --> 45:05.530]  And, um, and I, I do believe in, you know, the internet as the way around all the censorship.
[45:05.530 --> 45:10.130]  The problem is that, you know, and I, I've worked with indie media and I've worked with alternative media.
[45:10.270 --> 45:20.170]  And the problem is that you can't, um, I don't think anybody in, in this room would, for instance, invest money based on something they read that someone had posted on the indie media site.
[45:20.310 --> 45:24.650]  Because you don't have, you don't have a kind of perception of the accuracy of that.
[45:24.790 --> 45:27.250]  Whereas, I mean, I don't know, obviously it's all relative.
[45:27.410 --> 45:30.250]  But there's this whole post-modern kind of belief that everything is relative.
[45:30.250 --> 45:39.450]  But there's no workflow, you know, amongst the internet as a whole to sort of find a way whereby we can, we can evaluate whether someone's just making shit up.
[45:39.570 --> 45:41.290]  Because people make shit up all the time.
[45:41.410 --> 45:42.690]  And you get these rumors on the internet.
[45:42.990 --> 45:47.210]  And we're never gonna be the media that anybody is gonna trust until we can find a way.
[45:47.350 --> 46:00.890]  And we have to start thinking of a way to make, make it possible to discern someone who's making shit up from someone who's a really hard-working reporter who went and interviewed the widow and, you know, found out this fact and dug this up and can be trusted.
[46:01.090 --> 46:01.850]  So that was all my comments.
[46:01.970 --> 46:03.350]  The New York Post makes shit up.
[46:03.370 --> 46:04.070]  Yeah, there's a load of...
[46:04.070 --> 46:09.470]  I mean, the cover, the front cover the other day was that, uh, Kerry had selected someone else as his vice presidential candidate.
[46:10.170 --> 46:12.680]  You get, you know that, right?
[46:12.740 --> 46:14.780]  On indie media, you get some stuff that's just made up.
[46:15.880 --> 46:17.780]  You get it with commercial media, too.
[46:18.180 --> 46:21.360]  Yeah, I mean, you gotta have your propaganda filters up about anything online.
[46:21.360 --> 46:30.720]  But, I mean, I think one of the things about being in the media, whether it's with the blog or if you're on the radio or creating sound for a video game or whatever you're doing, is just throw some stuff out there that makes people think.
[46:30.900 --> 46:31.040]  Yeah.
[46:31.060 --> 46:38.940]  Because you can throw messages at people all day long, but if you get one nugget in front of their head that they go investigate, um, they can go make up their own mind.
[46:39.020 --> 46:40.880]  And people need to make up their own mind.
[46:41.120 --> 46:44.420]  You trust the media sources who ask you to go check their references.
[46:44.840 --> 46:49.960]  To answer the question directly, yes, I do think it's possible to create democratic structures of accountability.
[46:52.760 --> 46:58.980]  You know, the newspaper put out by the New York City Independent Media Center, which I guess we'll talk more about tomorrow.
[46:59.740 --> 47:02.060]  You know, there's editors and they check facts.
[47:02.320 --> 47:04.320]  And there's people who I trust to check facts.
[47:06.840 --> 47:09.940]  But, you know, without the corporate structure.
[47:10.260 --> 47:14.360]  And, you know, it doesn't mean you have to believe everything you read.
[47:14.360 --> 47:15.000]  Yeah.
[47:15.180 --> 47:16.980]  Let's get to the next question because there's more people.
[47:17.340 --> 47:21.720]  The media talks a lot about the war on, like, the hearts and minds of the people.
[47:21.880 --> 47:32.160]  And I think that that speaks a lot about propaganda and how much we're really using disinformation and propaganda in other parts of the world as well as in our own country.
[47:32.160 --> 47:40.100]  So, me being a technically-minded person, I get really frustrated when my boss goes to have a meeting about how there are too many meetings at our company.
[47:40.860 --> 47:44.680]  And I just want to get shit done and see defects get fixed.
[47:44.680 --> 47:52.200]  And I get so incredibly frustrated with the way that our country works, which is why things like Jen's artwork is so appealing to me.
[47:52.300 --> 47:55.120]  When I see it, I'm just like, yes, this is exactly what I'm feeling.
[47:55.700 --> 48:02.780]  I want to know, Jen, as an artist, how do you feel when other people on the street go by and they're offended by it.
[48:02.840 --> 48:04.480]  They're not like, no, this is how I'm feeling.
[48:04.680 --> 48:06.360]  They're like, take it down.
[48:07.580 --> 48:07.940]  Okay.
[48:07.940 --> 48:10.720]  Jen, if you could briefly answer that because we're just about out of time.
[48:10.840 --> 48:10.940]  I'll be quick.
[48:11.080 --> 48:11.780]  I think it's hilarious.
[48:14.640 --> 48:18.580]  If you saw these paintings, they say on the top of them, this is not propaganda, right?
[48:18.800 --> 48:20.480]  I mean, the irony is already here.
[48:20.640 --> 48:27.840]  And when somebody comes by and says, your sign of distress offends me, the irony levels just go way up to the top.
[48:28.120 --> 48:33.540]  So, I mean, yes, it's unfortunate that less people get to see it, but I think it's a sign of the times.
[48:33.540 --> 48:38.480]  It's a sign that exactly what I'm doing is, you know, typical.
[48:38.480 --> 48:41.780]  If they didn't ask to take it down, then it wouldn't have been a very good poster.
[48:41.960 --> 48:42.320]  Exactly.
[48:42.620 --> 48:42.800]  Exactly.
[48:43.640 --> 48:43.940]  Okay.
[48:44.260 --> 48:45.560]  So, thanks everyone for coming.
[48:45.720 --> 48:46.280]  We're out of time.
[48:46.420 --> 48:46.700]  Sorry.
[48:46.820 --> 48:46.980]  Sorry.
[48:48.200 --> 48:48.880]  We'll be around.
[48:49.060 --> 48:49.160]  Yeah.
[48:49.320 --> 48:49.680]  Okay.
[48:49.820 --> 48:50.120]  Thank you very much.