[00:11.340 --> 00:13.640]  Okay, I'm the emcee for this one.
[00:13.720 --> 00:20.780]  I'm also on the panel, so welcome to the last talk in this room of this current HOPE conference.
[00:21.660 --> 00:29.660]  If you have time and energy, stick around after the closing ceremony and help us tear shit down, and you'll get free t-shirts.
[00:35.220 --> 00:36.220]  Sean, take it away.
[00:36.220 --> 00:36.900]  Cool.
[00:37.220 --> 00:37.760]  Thank you, everyone.
[00:38.220 --> 00:40.380]  This is a great time to be alive and in business.
[00:40.700 --> 00:43.620]  How many people here run their own business?
[00:44.400 --> 00:45.840]  Oh, a good number of people.
[00:46.260 --> 00:46.820]  Excellent.
[00:47.320 --> 00:47.820]  You're fools.
[00:50.160 --> 00:55.640]  Tonight, we'll go over the theoretical and logistical aspects of hacking through business.
[00:56.940 --> 00:58.900]  So first, I'll introduce our panel.
[01:00.140 --> 01:03.040]  I'll ask questions about theory for the first half.
[01:03.220 --> 01:05.580]  Then we'll switch over to logistics with Charles.
[01:05.580 --> 01:10.100]  Then the panelists will ask each other a question, and then we'll have Q&A from the audience.
[01:10.600 --> 01:11.980]  We'll start with Mitch Altman.
[01:12.240 --> 01:14.500]  Mitch is the CEO of Cornfield Electronics.
[01:14.780 --> 01:21.000]  He invents devices that give people opportunities for effective choices in their lives, including the famous TV-B-Gone.
[01:21.340 --> 01:29.790]  Mitch is a respected leader in the hackerspace and maker movement, and co-founded the San Francisco hackerspace Noisebridge, one of the first U.S.-based hackerspaces.
[01:30.430 --> 01:34.630]  Mitch teaches electronics workshops around the world, and is an inspiration to us all.
[01:35.970 --> 01:48.250]  Ben Dubin-Thaler is the creator of the BioBus, a mobile biology research lab, and recently with his team, Ben has created the BioBase in Manhattan, a community lab empowering scientific engagement for everyone.
[01:48.250 --> 01:59.470]  Over 165,000 students from 500 schools have boarded the BioBus, exhibiting dramatic positive changes in attitudes towards science and science careers.
[02:00.150 --> 02:03.970]  Ben has received numerous awards for excellence in research and teaching.
[02:04.950 --> 02:06.030]  Shawn O'Ready.
[02:06.030 --> 02:07.170]  I'm Sean O'Ready, I'm a serial entrepreneur.
[02:07.530 --> 02:10.190]  I got the idea for this talk while visiting with Mitch.
[02:10.510 --> 02:13.310]  Then I heard that Charles had a similar idea for a talk.
[02:13.550 --> 02:17.430]  So we got together to share these brilliant panelists and ask our questions.
[02:17.990 --> 02:18.930]  Charles Beckwith.
[02:19.110 --> 02:23.670]  Charles is a freelance executive and consultant focusing on fashion, media, and technology.
[02:24.010 --> 02:29.390]  He is a producer and co-host of the fashion industry's favorite show, American Fashion Podcast.
[02:31.530 --> 02:35.230]  L'Amour Fried is founder and engineer of Adafruit Industries.
[02:35.770 --> 02:41.390]  L'Amour started Adafruit in 2005 with the goal to create the best place online for learning electronics.
[02:42.110 --> 02:49.430]  Since then, Adafruit has grown to over 100 employees and operates in the heart of New York City with a 50,000 plus square foot factory.
[02:49.730 --> 02:56.490]  L'Amour was the first female engineer on the cover of Wired Magazine and was awarded Entrepreneur's Magazine, Entrepreneur of the Year.
[02:57.230 --> 02:59.530]  Phillip Torrone is partner at Adafruit.
[03:00.010 --> 03:03.110]  He manages the day-to-day challenges of running a factory in New York City.
[03:03.390 --> 03:12.710]  He was previously senior editor at Make Magazine, producing the Make blog, creating the Make video series, and working on the Maker Shed online store and Maker Faire.
[03:12.990 --> 03:19.390]  He was also senior editor at Popular Science, how-to editor at Engadget, and founder of Hackaday.com.
[03:20.570 --> 03:22.150]  All right, we'll move into questions.
[03:23.490 --> 03:29.930]  I watched a TED Talk recently, and the best businesses answer one question clearly to their customer, and that is why.
[03:31.630 --> 03:38.850]  So tell us, what is the why of Cornfield Electronics, what is the why of BioBus, and what is the why of Adafruit Industries?
[03:39.550 --> 03:40.770]  Mitch, start with you.
[03:41.650 --> 03:42.130]  Sure.
[03:44.290 --> 03:45.570]  We have to share mics.
[03:46.230 --> 04:05.110]  So when I started Cornfield Electronics, it was 2003, and I started it to put out TV-B-Gone into the world, and I didn't have a clue what the hell I was doing.
[04:06.490 --> 04:07.270]  I'm a geek.
[04:07.470 --> 04:12.910]  I'm really good at playing with electronics and putting things together and making them work with microcontrollers.
[04:13.650 --> 04:23.910]  And I've been part of so many startups in Silly Valley and saw them all fail, and I thought, well, hell, I can do that.
[04:24.070 --> 04:25.050]  I can fail a company.
[04:25.390 --> 04:28.290]  So I might as well fail my own and not have a boss.
[04:28.290 --> 04:34.490]  So I started Cornfield Electronics and learned a lot really fast.
[04:35.410 --> 04:45.970]  TV-B-Gone became literally an overnight hit from the first day of sales, and I sold 20,000 of the things in the first three weeks because of a Wired.com article.
[04:46.370 --> 04:48.130]  And I was totally taken by surprise.
[04:48.550 --> 04:56.050]  So Cornfield Electronics was really just sort of, well, I don't know, I guess I should start a company if I'm going to sell something.
[04:56.050 --> 05:01.770]  But then it really had to turn into a real company really fast, and I had to hire a whole bunch of employees and all these other things.
[05:01.910 --> 05:05.890]  So I did not answer the question why before I started it.
[05:05.970 --> 05:09.290]  I had to come up with really, well, what am I doing here?
[05:09.410 --> 05:14.090]  And I came up with the tagline, useful electronics for a better world.
[05:14.830 --> 05:19.650]  So Sean kind of encapsulated it earlier in his words.
[05:19.650 --> 05:30.330]  But I thought having products that would give people an opportunity to reflect on the choices they make in their lives and hopefully learn from those choices and make better choices.
[05:30.670 --> 05:33.350]  And TV-B-Gone was one of those things.
[05:33.470 --> 05:37.670]  And, of course, I wanted everything to be fun because if it's not fun, why would anyone do it?
[05:43.200 --> 05:46.160]  So I was in the lab.
[05:46.360 --> 05:50.760]  I was studying cells and how they crawl around inside of your body.
[05:50.880 --> 05:58.640]  Like right now they're all, you know, crawling around inside of you, eating bacteria and like forming memories maybe of this panel.
[05:58.640 --> 06:09.020]  And what I saw was that when kids from the neighborhood around Columbia where I was doing my PhD came into the lab, their jaws just dropped.
[06:09.500 --> 06:25.880]  And I realized that most people, especially kids living in Harlem, you know, most people don't have any idea how cool it is to work inside of a science lab with laser microscopes and cells crawling around.
[06:25.880 --> 06:36.340]  So the basic mission of the BioBus is to give students, give people of all sorts, that excitement, right?
[06:36.420 --> 06:37.960]  Get them into a research science lab.
[06:38.140 --> 06:50.120]  So the bus is actually a traveling research science lab with about $200,000 worth of microscopes in it, including fluorescence microscopes and scanning an electron microscope literally on a bus that parks in front of schools in the Bronx.
[06:50.260 --> 06:53.360]  And 150 kids will come out and get to use this microscope.
[06:53.360 --> 06:58.380]  So we're really inspiring, just, you know, giving students a chance to see that.
[07:00.140 --> 07:06.180]  The BioBase, which is the community science lab side of that, and the first one is actually on Avenue D and 8th Street.
[07:06.340 --> 07:14.700]  That's where those students that are on the bus, that like we're literally prying them off of the microscopes to get them to like go back into their school at the end of a 45 minute session.
[07:14.700 --> 07:22.440]  Those students, right, who need more, who like, you know, in their bodies, like physically are scientists ready to, you know, go down that pathway.
[07:22.660 --> 07:25.900]  Those students enroll in long-term programs at the BioBase.
[07:26.000 --> 07:33.600]  So it's both about inspiring students and providing opportunities to students to explore scientific pathways.
[07:39.720 --> 07:47.800]  Okay, so when I was a kid and I was in high school, we actually had like a workshop where we put together like electronic kits.
[07:47.860 --> 07:48.660]  It was like learn to solder.
[07:48.800 --> 07:50.120]  It was one of like the shop classes.
[07:50.900 --> 07:54.540]  And I totally failed, like I put together this kit and I failed at it.
[07:54.660 --> 07:59.420]  And I was, I pretty much decided like, f*ck electrical engineering, I want to be a computer scientist.
[08:00.080 --> 08:06.000]  Mostly because of this like kind of bad experience that I had where I was building something and it failed and I didn't even understand what I was building.
[08:06.560 --> 08:16.240]  So after I graduated, I decided, I wanted, you know, I looked around and it still was, if you want to learn electronics, the kits that you were building, I just found them very uninspiring.
[08:16.880 --> 08:20.040]  So I thought like, I know, like I can do better than that.
[08:20.140 --> 08:23.320]  And I had no idea what I was doing, like Mitch.
[08:23.480 --> 08:27.160]  And that's the most powerful thing you can not know how to do when you start a business.
[08:27.160 --> 08:30.580]  Because if you knew what you were doing, you wouldn't start a business because that's ridiculous.
[08:31.340 --> 08:36.720]  So I decided like, okay, well, I'm just going to like design some kits and I'll put up a PayPal button and I'll see how that goes.
[08:36.760 --> 08:38.260]  And that was 10 years ago.
[08:38.600 --> 08:46.220]  But mostly it was just, I just had this deep need to show people how cool it was to solder and build electronics.
[08:46.220 --> 08:47.840]  And learn electrical engineering.
[08:48.060 --> 08:56.520]  I think it's, it was really fascinating, but it was very hard to introduce people to that without saying, okay, you need to know, you know, physics one, physics two, E and M.
[08:56.920 --> 08:58.940]  Differential equations, fast Fourier transforms.
[08:59.160 --> 09:01.320]  Like that's how everybody else was learning EE.
[09:01.500 --> 09:04.820]  But I thought it's more fun to just play with it and you learn just by doing.
[09:07.020 --> 09:07.680]  You want to add?
[09:07.880 --> 09:09.100]  Yeah, you said it perfectly.
[09:09.340 --> 09:09.660]  Okay, great.
[09:09.940 --> 09:10.460]  We're done.
[09:12.280 --> 09:15.320]  So what did the Zen master say to the pizza delivery man?
[09:16.040 --> 09:17.440]  Make me one with everything.
[09:18.620 --> 09:22.500]  Studies show that spending time in nature can help reduce stress and prevent illness.
[09:22.820 --> 09:26.440]  Since being an entrepreneur can be so demanding, what do you do to keep stress in check?
[09:29.160 --> 09:30.280]  Well, that's easy.
[09:30.560 --> 09:32.700]  I, um, I stay up late.
[09:33.020 --> 09:34.240]  I wake up early.
[09:34.660 --> 09:38.300]  I, um, find situations to stress out over.
[09:38.720 --> 09:43.220]  Um, I, uh, get on airplanes and have jet lag all the time.
[09:43.620 --> 09:51.120]  I teach lots and lots of people of various, uh, different, uh, degrees of skill and experience, which is really difficult.
[09:51.120 --> 09:55.420]  Um, yeah, all those things make it really easy to reduce stress.
[10:00.460 --> 10:02.600]  So really hard questions.
[10:03.640 --> 10:04.120]  Sean.
[10:04.720 --> 10:06.960]  Um, let's see.
[10:07.020 --> 10:07.900]  I had two kids.
[10:09.440 --> 10:09.920]  Uh,
[10:14.760 --> 10:20.260]  I, I have to say that I think that the only thing that reduces stress is, is, is having a good team.
[10:20.260 --> 10:31.120]  Um, like if you have people that you work with, if you can find people that will follow, follow you, you know, full heartedly or not, if they're good people.
[10:31.500 --> 10:39.620]  Um, you know, that's the only thing that keeps me from going nuts is, you know, knowing that the person who's currently driving the bio bus is not gonna like run it off the road.
[10:39.620 --> 10:45.820]  Or, you know, like the people that are teaching the kids aren't gonna have like a, a fit and like, you know, scream at some kids.
[10:45.820 --> 10:49.400]  You know, I mean, there's always horrible, horrible things that are going to happen.
[10:50.220 --> 10:54.900]  And if you have a good team, you know, at least the worst of those things probably won't happen.
[10:55.640 --> 10:59.400]  And let me add to something more serious to that answer.
[10:59.740 --> 11:04.940]  I think the main thing, even though running your own business isn't necessarily stressful, there's just no way around it.
[11:05.000 --> 11:06.340]  And that's not the fun part for me.
[11:06.540 --> 11:08.860]  But I'm doing stuff that I totally love.
[11:09.460 --> 11:15.140]  And I have no problem being as busy as I am because I'm doing stuff I love all the time.
[11:15.140 --> 11:16.360]  And laundry, of course.
[11:16.700 --> 11:19.160]  So, but, you know, like bookkeeping.
[11:19.380 --> 11:20.600]  That's also not fun.
[11:20.760 --> 11:23.220]  But laundry, it's nice to have clean clothes.
[11:23.240 --> 11:26.080]  It's also nice not to have the IRS breathing down your back.
[11:26.680 --> 11:31.180]  And to have your books in order so that you can actually have cash flow and all these things that keep the business alive.
[11:31.420 --> 11:36.100]  And all that enables me to keep doing what I love so much.
[11:36.320 --> 11:38.200]  So the stress just doesn't really matter.
[11:38.360 --> 11:42.180]  It's the kind of stress that I get more out of than it takes away.
[11:45.370 --> 11:50.830]  I mean, I think that, you know, like they said, there's no way around the stress of business.
[11:51.150 --> 11:52.870]  But stress isn't necessarily bad.
[11:53.150 --> 11:57.350]  I mean, yes, it is stressful and you have a physical and emotional response to it.
[11:57.470 --> 12:11.030]  But, you know, one thing that we do is whenever we have a stressful situation, and they will come up every single week whether you like it or not, is the first thing I think of is, okay, well, it's a really weird thing to think of.
[12:11.130 --> 12:14.110]  But I think nothing has actually changed from day to day.
[12:14.270 --> 12:16.450]  Like, the company hasn't, like, collapsed.
[12:16.570 --> 12:18.530]  It's just, okay, you're going through a difficult period.
[12:18.810 --> 12:19.930]  But nothing has changed.
[12:20.050 --> 12:20.930]  Tomorrow will be another day.
[12:21.130 --> 12:23.270]  So, you know, things go up, things go down.
[12:23.370 --> 12:25.510]  You have to just kind of have this more holistic view of it.
[12:25.710 --> 12:30.930]  But also the things that are stressing you out are the things that are making your company stronger.
[12:30.930 --> 12:31.330]  Right?
[12:31.470 --> 12:32.890]  Like, working out is stressful.
[12:33.090 --> 12:34.110]  You are stressing your muscles.
[12:34.270 --> 12:37.010]  But that's the only other way to get stronger.
[12:37.750 --> 12:42.430]  And when you have a stressful situation like, you know, an IRS audit or something.
[12:43.330 --> 12:44.870]  You know, and we have audits.
[12:44.970 --> 12:46.790]  Like, we have, you know, a sales tax audit or something.
[12:46.970 --> 12:48.930]  And rather than saying, like, f*ck, I can't believe that.
[12:49.050 --> 12:51.170]  Like, oh, my God, like, this is horrible and, like, freaking out.
[12:51.390 --> 12:53.030]  The way we approach it is, okay, great.
[12:53.510 --> 12:56.830]  This audit is going to teach us everything we need to know to be perfect.
[12:56.830 --> 12:58.970]  And so we're going to do the best job we can.
[12:58.970 --> 13:01.950]  And we want to be audited every single year.
[13:02.890 --> 13:05.170]  Like, it's completely backwards from how everybody thinks it.
[13:05.210 --> 13:14.210]  But if you approach it as, like, this stressful situation is going to teach me how to approach the situation so that when it happens the next time it's not a big deal because it will happen again.
[13:14.350 --> 13:28.430]  Every stressful situation that comes up as an employer, whether it's, you know, you're learning how to deal with bookkeeping or you have a product recall or somebody drove the bus into a crowded group of people or something.
[13:28.690 --> 13:30.570]  Whatever it is, like, I feel bad.
[13:30.850 --> 13:31.530]  I don't know.
[13:32.050 --> 13:33.350]  Somebody breaks a microscope.
[13:33.570 --> 13:33.810]  I don't know.
[13:33.810 --> 13:34.690]  It's, like, your greatest fear.
[13:35.070 --> 13:36.010]  It's going to happen again.
[13:36.010 --> 13:42.950]  So just use that as a way to, like, train yourself and have that be an autoimmune response that protects you from the next thing that occurs.
[13:42.950 --> 13:47.810]  So you can have longevity, not just reaction to small-scale stress situations.
[13:48.730 --> 13:53.670]  Yeah, and I work with Limor, so some of the things I'm going to say sounds like that.
[13:54.290 --> 13:56.890]  But a lot of the things that we try to figure out is what not to do.
[13:57.210 --> 14:00.930]  So especially if you have a company that's successful, you can almost do anything.
[14:01.370 --> 14:04.370]  You can go into every business and you'll probably fail.
[14:04.670 --> 14:12.070]  So a lot of it is ways to avoid stress is not choosing things that's not your sole focus.
[14:12.810 --> 14:20.930]  A lot of the times that we come across an opportunity, we go back to what are the values we want to hold on to?
[14:21.030 --> 14:22.130]  What are the things we want to hold on to?
[14:22.210 --> 14:23.110]  And what are the things we want to let go?
[14:23.430 --> 14:30.510]  Sometimes it doesn't make sense to be great at some things, but some things you should be great at always.
[14:31.190 --> 14:35.310]  And I think the vibe of we don't really want things to be easier.
[14:35.510 --> 14:36.310]  We don't want stress to go away.
[14:36.350 --> 14:37.570]  We just want to be better at what we do.
[14:37.790 --> 14:42.030]  And I think that's a healthier way to look at it, especially with the way the world is right now.
[14:42.070 --> 14:46.890]  Like, never in the history of forever, has anyone been able to get a hold of someone?
[14:47.090 --> 14:50.470]  So, how you react to things is kind of how you're judged now.
[14:50.810 --> 14:58.010]  And if you're confident in it, you have a good team, you can react to things way better than when you're by yourself.
[14:58.210 --> 15:01.490]  So, I'll emphasize the good team thing is really important.
[15:01.710 --> 15:03.990]  I mean, is there anything worth doing that isn't stressful?
[15:09.110 --> 15:10.110]  Do you have insomnia?
[15:10.110 --> 15:12.930]  Yeah, it's really good to turn stress around into your favor.
[15:13.830 --> 15:15.210]  I like these answers.
[15:15.930 --> 15:18.930]  Okay, so, we'll start from the left this time.
[15:19.150 --> 15:20.990]  What is the biggest dream for your business?
[15:22.970 --> 15:24.130]  Biggest dream for the business?
[15:24.330 --> 15:24.510]  Yeah.
[15:24.730 --> 15:30.570]  Well, I would like to continue to get this stuff out of her head to everyone, because it's kind of interesting and delightful.
[15:31.850 --> 15:34.470]  Being able to manufacture in the U.S.
[15:34.770 --> 15:39.130]  successfully has been one of the big goals, and we want to continue doing that.
[15:39.810 --> 15:40.210]  Yeah.
[15:40.850 --> 15:41.250]  Yay!
[15:43.810 --> 15:46.050]  So, you know, here's a f*cked up stat.
[15:46.290 --> 15:48.990]  We might be the only cell phone manufacturer in the U.S.
[15:49.070 --> 15:49.350]  right now.
[15:49.930 --> 15:50.070]  Oh, wow.
[15:50.350 --> 15:51.570]  We make... yeah, yay!
[15:51.930 --> 15:52.110]  Whoa!
[15:53.230 --> 15:54.630]  Yeah, I think that was good.
[15:54.770 --> 16:00.090]  So, Motorola had an assembly factory, and they weren't really making cell phones, but they even stopped doing that.
[16:00.090 --> 16:05.930]  So, we make these cute little Internet of Things things that are phones, and they also can make phone calls and all that.
[16:06.070 --> 16:19.050]  So, the dream is to prove it can be done, because it doesn't even matter if it's about manufacturing or electronics, just that some weirdo gothy kids that hang out at hacker conferences can have a U.S.
[16:19.230 --> 16:20.610]  manufacturing company in Manhattan.
[16:20.610 --> 16:23.810]  It's one of the worst ideas you could ever come up with.
[16:24.770 --> 16:29.720]  And I feel like if we can do it, if this girl can do electronics and engineering...
[16:30.230 --> 16:34.510]  That was going to be our motto when A Different Star was, it's so easy even a girl can do it.
[16:34.610 --> 16:34.870]  Yeah.
[16:35.050 --> 16:35.710]  But you shot that down.
[16:36.010 --> 16:36.250]  Yeah.
[16:36.250 --> 16:36.270]  Yeah.
[16:37.750 --> 16:41.350]  So, I kind of feel like, as a society, sometimes we are what we celebrate.
[16:42.090 --> 16:47.050]  And if we can show that this is possible and we're not giving up, then that's kind of the dream.
[16:47.170 --> 16:47.970]  So, not giving up.
[16:48.150 --> 16:48.510]  Awesome.
[16:49.450 --> 16:56.770]  My dream is that I met this wonderful young lady who was 10 years old, and she was a huge fan.
[16:56.810 --> 16:59.030]  She's like, I'm learning Python and I'm learning Scratch.
[16:59.090 --> 17:02.070]  And I'm like, my dream is that you grow up and you put me out of business.
[17:02.210 --> 17:02.330]  Yeah.
[17:02.330 --> 17:03.430]  That would be so cool.
[17:03.630 --> 17:06.190]  That was just on the exhibit floor in front of the Hackaday booth.
[17:06.390 --> 17:06.470]  Yeah.
[17:06.590 --> 17:08.450]  We're like, please put us out of business.
[17:08.590 --> 17:08.730]  Yeah.
[17:08.830 --> 17:20.410]  Like, my dream is to create a huge group of competitors that, like, do open-source hardware and manufacture in New York or in America and make the next TV-B-Gone or make the next Biobus.
[17:20.510 --> 17:21.370]  Like, that's what I want.
[17:23.290 --> 17:23.710]  Awesome.
[17:25.490 --> 17:25.750]  Matt.
[17:26.230 --> 17:26.490]  Matt.
[17:26.490 --> 17:26.530]  Matt.
[17:28.870 --> 17:29.290]  Matt.
[17:29.290 --> 17:38.630]  The dream that we have right now is to take some of the highest needs communities in New York City.
[17:38.970 --> 18:08.170]  Right now we're focusing on the Lower East Side and Harlem and the South Bronx and just create a generation of students and their parents and their brothers and sisters and grandparents that embrace technology, embrace science, see it as something that's a positive force in their lives and something that they can actually influence and for those people to start coming to conferences like this in
[18:08.170 --> 18:14.270]  larger numbers and start just engaging in the scientific community more broadly.
[18:14.630 --> 18:30.170]  And I think that through, you know, over the course of time, over ten years, our approach is to really have every single student in the public schools in Harlem and the public schools in Lower East Side come through our programs.
[18:30.170 --> 18:32.470]  We have about 35,000 students a year.
[18:33.750 --> 18:45.170]  And I think over the course of ten years, we hope and we dream to really see that kind of shift, that really community-based shift in attitudes towards science and technology.
[18:47.900 --> 18:53.540]  Yeah, so my dreams aren't really so much for the future but just for the ongoing present.
[18:54.180 --> 18:59.640]  I'm living a life I totally love and that's been my dream all my life.
[18:59.900 --> 19:03.640]  And if I can keep doing that, that's just awesome.
[19:03.640 --> 19:13.740]  So, you know, what I love is to be able to inspire people to live lives that they think are way worthwhile.
[19:14.540 --> 19:18.020]  And if I can keep doing that, that's what I want to do.
[19:19.480 --> 19:20.040]  Awesome.
[19:20.340 --> 19:24.780]  Do you believe there is some sort of pattern or formula to becoming a successful entrepreneur?
[19:25.760 --> 19:27.820]  Yeah, explore and do what you love.
[19:27.820 --> 19:29.020]  It's super easy.
[19:30.020 --> 19:31.780]  It's easy to stay anyways.
[19:32.140 --> 19:36.960]  Because there are a lot of impediments in the way of actually choosing to do what you know you love.
[19:37.840 --> 19:41.320]  One of the impediments is that most people don't even know.
[19:41.840 --> 19:43.740]  Many people don't even know what they like.
[19:43.920 --> 19:48.500]  They just do what they feel is what they have to do or what they're supposed to do.
[19:49.580 --> 20:00.640]  And working a job, coming home, burned out, maybe watching TV, watching more TV, watching more TV.
[20:01.280 --> 20:03.800]  Playing a video game, watching screens, whatever.
[20:04.160 --> 20:10.360]  And then going to bed, crawling out of bed to go back to the job they don't even like to make just enough money so that they can continue to do all that.
[20:10.860 --> 20:16.000]  That's not really a recipe for a life you think is really way worthwhile.
[20:17.080 --> 20:18.820]  So, yeah.
[20:19.060 --> 20:21.720]  But if you explore, give yourself time to explore.
[20:21.720 --> 20:24.940]  And then if you do, you'll find things you love eventually.
[20:24.940 --> 20:26.400]  And you can do more of that.
[20:26.460 --> 20:30.900]  And if you do that, chances are other people will love it too.
[20:31.700 --> 20:33.500]  Maybe just a few, maybe a bunch.
[20:33.980 --> 20:37.560]  If it's a bunch, people are excited about it in your local community.
[20:37.560 --> 20:39.480]  That probably means there's an opportunity.
[20:40.120 --> 20:42.280]  And if there's an opportunity, go for it.
[20:42.920 --> 20:47.720]  You know, we've all talked about really stupid ideas to start companies with.
[20:47.940 --> 20:53.600]  And here we all are, many years later, still making a living off of these things we really love.
[20:53.720 --> 20:57.600]  Because we've made the time, all of us, to explore and do what we really love doing.
[20:57.600 --> 20:58.680]  What we're passionate about.
[20:58.700 --> 21:00.320]  What we find meaning in doing.
[21:00.320 --> 21:05.620]  And it's only because we made the time to explore and then really do what we love.
[21:05.760 --> 21:07.520]  And found opportunities in doing that.
[21:08.460 --> 21:08.820]  Awesome.
[21:08.940 --> 21:09.540]  What do you think, Ben?
[21:11.020 --> 21:15.000]  I think I can just echo Mitch a little bit here.
[21:15.900 --> 21:20.220]  I mean, it took me a long time to get to BioBus.
[21:21.520 --> 21:33.520]  And I knew that what I was doing, while it was good in the eyes of a lot of people, wasn't really the thing for me.
[21:34.120 --> 21:41.060]  That was, like, you know, college and then taking a couple years off in a lab.
[21:41.060 --> 21:43.400]  And then enrolling in grad school.
[21:43.620 --> 21:46.820]  And it was, like, at each of those stages, it was kind of like, ah, geez.
[21:47.000 --> 21:48.980]  Like, there's something else.
[21:49.160 --> 21:52.640]  But, you know, it was like, I don't want to be a teacher in a classroom.
[21:52.640 --> 21:55.320]  I don't want to, you know, I don't want to be a community organizer.
[21:55.580 --> 22:00.340]  Like, these are, they weren't things that were drawing me, even though I explored those avenues.
[22:02.500 --> 22:08.360]  So I think, you know, I'll just echo Mitch, you know, stay open to the opportunities when the idea strikes you.
[22:08.400 --> 22:14.720]  And if people in your community, you know, also think it's, you know, maybe an idea worth pursuing.
[22:14.720 --> 22:16.780]  And start small.
[22:17.800 --> 22:30.600]  I mean, with the bus, like, literally I went on Craigslist and bought an old 1970s transit bus and convinced some of the microscope companies to, like, donate some microscopes.
[22:30.740 --> 22:32.380]  Which, you know, those things were amazing.
[22:32.820 --> 22:34.000]  That actually happened.
[22:34.040 --> 22:35.720]  But it was really small scale.
[22:36.240 --> 22:44.220]  And then I just started, you know, like, calling up friends of mine who were teaching and saying, Hey, you know, like, can I bring this bus full of microscopes to your school for a day?
[22:44.320 --> 22:45.920]  Like, do you think your students would like that?
[22:46.000 --> 22:47.500]  And they're like, yeah, you know, like, bring it over.
[22:48.980 --> 23:02.160]  And just getting that initial positive feedback on that small scale, you know, and then moving incrementally for me was how I was able to build slowly, build sustainably.
[23:04.880 --> 23:13.200]  And I think, you know, perfected the very, you know, rough idea, right, that I started out with as I went forward.
[23:15.160 --> 23:19.460]  Do you believe there's a pattern for formula becoming successful and entrepreneur?
[23:19.460 --> 23:24.880]  I mean, there's like two pieces that I think I've seen a lot of.
[23:25.240 --> 23:27.760]  And I'm totally stealing other people's advice to me.
[23:27.960 --> 23:39.880]  The first one is the most pragmatic, practical advice, which I have seen every successful entrepreneur has managed to follow, which is they actually knew how the business made money.
[23:40.400 --> 23:49.860]  So, or rather, every time we see an entrepreneur who hasn't succeeded, they didn't know how the company made money, which sounds very unusual until you see it, and it has happened.
[23:50.080 --> 24:02.760]  So, having stats, understanding what's going on with your business, being able to know if today was a good sales day or a bad sales day, or like, are things working out, and not find out like six to eight months later, like, being on top of those numbers.
[24:03.220 --> 24:12.040]  And the good news is if you're a hacker, you probably can hack together some scripts, or you can do some MySQL queries so you can know on a day-to-day basis.
[24:12.040 --> 24:17.980]  When I see people who are like, oh, I have a shopping cart, at the end of the month, I get the sales stats, and I'm like, at the end of the month, it's too late.
[24:18.200 --> 24:19.640]  You know, you have to know immediately.
[24:19.940 --> 24:30.580]  So, pragmatically, that's important, I think, like, to be able to know immediately how your business is doing and keep a tab on that, especially as it's small, because it's such a delicate egg.
[24:31.080 --> 24:46.340]  And then, as a more philosophical, staying on the path, that if you have a path, staying on it, because it's like you are, like, going through the valley of death, and like, there's all these, like, there's all these people who are going to be, not attacking,
[24:46.440 --> 24:47.980]  but they're going to try to, like, distract you.
[24:48.160 --> 24:56.260]  Like, they're siren songs of like, oh, like, we should do a Kickstarter, like, oh, like, we should really, like, do a car commercial.
[24:56.260 --> 25:08.760]  I mean, you will get pulled into, like, so many things, and like, everyone is trying to pull you apart, because they see something that they want, that being able to say no and stay on that path is extremely difficult.
[25:09.000 --> 25:19.160]  But people who can do that, even though everything culturally is telling you, like, say yes, if you are able to say no and keep going, you'll be able to keep your focus on your business.
[25:19.860 --> 25:20.300]  Okay.
[25:20.460 --> 25:26.640]  And then some of the things I've seen that's a pattern is the really good ones, they have a good cause, and they've turned it into a good business.
[25:26.880 --> 25:27.520]  It's possible.
[25:27.800 --> 25:30.020]  It doesn't always work out, but you can do it.
[25:30.240 --> 25:32.600]  Sometimes there's a really good cause, but it's a terrible business.
[25:32.820 --> 25:39.160]  And sometimes there's great businesses, but they're the worst things in the world, maybe the financial industry and stuff like that.
[25:39.280 --> 25:44.540]  Like, it's a great business, billion percent margins, but kind of a crummy cause.
[25:44.720 --> 25:48.860]  So the really good entrepreneurs seem to figure out a way to be a good cause and a good business.
[25:48.860 --> 25:52.700]  As far as the other pattern is they are very others-focused.
[25:53.420 --> 26:01.200]  For their team members, for their employees, for their customers, everything, they really have a way of figuring out how empathy works.
[26:01.500 --> 26:07.680]  And you can't really get thousands of people to work together unless you have something to glue it together.
[26:07.980 --> 26:12.820]  And being able to be others-focused, having a good cause is one of the things that works.
[26:12.820 --> 26:18.560]  And then one of the things that I've seen recently is it's totally okay to be underestimated.
[26:19.200 --> 26:23.980]  Because you get ignored for a while and then you win because they didn't think...
[26:23.980 --> 26:25.620]  They thought you were weird or like whatever.
[26:25.780 --> 26:27.000]  They didn't see it coming out of the blue.
[26:27.220 --> 26:28.460]  They weren't paying attention to you.
[26:28.540 --> 26:30.180]  So that's a little bit of a pattern.
[26:30.620 --> 26:35.300]  One side note, the story that Limor told about as far as how the money works.
[26:36.040 --> 26:37.540]  So Adafruit met with Radio Shack.
[26:37.600 --> 26:39.300]  They went bankrupt and a hedge fund bought them.
[26:39.300 --> 26:42.320]  And the guy who owns Radio Shack was at Adafruit.
[26:42.460 --> 26:43.460]  And he's like, okay, what should I do?
[26:44.440 --> 26:46.840]  And we talked for like three hours and we have a bunch of ideas.
[26:46.940 --> 26:50.640]  But at the end, we couldn't resist and we had to ask, what's the pattern of failure?
[26:51.140 --> 26:57.920]  And that was one of the things he mentioned is the people at the top, the managers, the people who weren't working there, kind of installed MBAs.
[26:58.020 --> 26:59.000]  They didn't understand how the money worked.
[26:59.260 --> 27:00.780]  And so that was a pattern.
[27:00.860 --> 27:02.120]  They also bought American Apparel.
[27:02.540 --> 27:03.500]  That's one of their other companies.
[27:03.740 --> 27:05.640]  But yeah, so...
[27:05.640 --> 27:08.440]  Now this was like total vulture capital.
[27:08.440 --> 27:09.360]  I mean, like it was awesome.
[27:09.540 --> 27:12.940]  Like this guy's like, I buy destroyed companies and I try to resuscitate them.
[27:12.940 --> 27:13.620]  He buys distressed debt.
[27:13.760 --> 27:16.320]  Oh, the guy who bought Radio Shack bought American Apparel.
[27:16.400 --> 27:16.540]  Yes.
[27:16.540 --> 27:17.800]  Yeah, also, in addition to...
[27:17.800 --> 27:18.060]  Yes.
[27:18.300 --> 27:18.560]  Yeah.
[27:19.060 --> 27:20.580]  It was a two for one sale.
[27:20.720 --> 27:21.040]  I know.
[27:23.480 --> 27:24.420]  I just kind of imagine...
[27:24.420 --> 27:25.960]  You buy a bunch of socks and you get Radio Shack.
[27:25.960 --> 27:30.640]  We just imagine this guy who's like in an ambulance and he's like, don't die yet, just make it to the hospital.
[27:30.860 --> 27:32.520]  Like he's just trying to keep this corpse alive.
[27:32.640 --> 27:33.920]  So that's what he does for a living.
[27:34.000 --> 27:34.460]  It was kind of neat.
[27:34.540 --> 27:37.980]  But he was very insightful because all he deals with are companies that dissolve.
[27:37.980 --> 27:39.020]  Yeah, he's like an undertaker.
[27:39.140 --> 27:39.960]  We're like, you see death all the time.
[27:40.180 --> 27:40.940]  What does death look like?
[27:41.040 --> 27:41.460]  How do they...
[27:41.460 --> 27:41.960]  Why do they die?
[27:42.040 --> 27:42.340]  We don't...
[27:42.340 --> 27:43.160]  We want to keep death away.
[27:43.660 --> 27:43.820]  Wow.
[27:45.120 --> 27:45.400]  So...
[27:45.400 --> 27:45.840]  Awesome.
[27:47.320 --> 27:53.860]  So, businessman was talking with his barber when they both noticed a goofy looking fellow bouncing down the sidewalk.
[27:54.180 --> 27:58.320]  The barber whispered, that's Tommy, one of the stupidest kids you'll ever meet.
[27:58.580 --> 27:59.520]  Here, I'll show you.
[27:59.860 --> 28:01.600]  Hey, Tommy, come here, yelled the barber.
[28:01.900 --> 28:03.320]  Tommy came bouncing over.
[28:03.540 --> 28:04.480]  Hi, Mr. Williams.
[28:04.480 --> 28:08.400]  The barber pulled out a rusty dime and a shiny quarter.
[28:08.620 --> 28:11.360]  And told Tommy he could keep the one of his choice.
[28:11.960 --> 28:14.400]  Tommy looked long and hard at the dime and the quarter.
[28:15.020 --> 28:17.560]  And then quickly snapped up the dime from the barber's hand.
[28:17.940 --> 28:20.660]  The barber looked at the businessman and said, see, I told you.
[28:21.240 --> 28:25.520]  After his haircut, the businessman caught up with Tommy and asked him why he chose the dime.
[28:26.040 --> 28:29.860]  Tommy looked at him in the eye and said, if I take the quarter, the game is over.
[28:33.310 --> 28:34.310]  Tommy was underestimated.
[28:35.010 --> 28:35.070]  Yeah.
[28:35.710 --> 28:37.370]  So, how do you keep the game going?
[28:37.750 --> 28:38.990]  Mitch, how do you keep it going?
[28:40.230 --> 28:41.930]  I'll just be a broken record.
[28:42.310 --> 28:43.190]  I do what I love.
[28:44.170 --> 28:47.710]  And if I do what I love, I want to do more of what I love.
[28:48.110 --> 28:53.770]  So, and it turns out other people often love what I do enough to pay me to do it.
[28:56.370 --> 28:56.770]  Ben?
[28:58.930 --> 29:06.770]  I mean, maybe I'll just take, like, the more pragmatic...
[29:07.470 --> 29:09.170]  I mean, of course Mitch is right.
[29:10.130 --> 29:21.310]  And on the flip side, for us as a nonprofit, we've got to keep foundations and donors, like, giving us money so that we can bring the programs to kids in this city that, you know, never have these opportunities.
[29:21.970 --> 29:34.030]  So, we have to, a lot of times, you know, think about, okay, how are we going to present this in a way so that they see the strengths, right, in the most obvious way.
[29:34.130 --> 29:36.790]  And we really need to, you know, like, oh, the bus is at this school.
[29:36.910 --> 29:38.990]  We've got to send it, you know, we've got to take some photographs, right?
[29:40.870 --> 29:46.290]  And, oh, like, this student is about to leave and they might not come back, but they had this amazing experience with us.
[29:46.350 --> 29:50.270]  We've got to interview that student so we can, you know, make sure we've got the testimonials that we need.
[29:50.270 --> 29:54.390]  I mean, it's the kind of thing that's easy to, like, just forget to do.
[29:54.450 --> 29:56.830]  And you look at that kid and you're like, wow, that kid is amazing.
[29:56.990 --> 30:04.230]  But you've got to remember that you've also got to communicate to other people that that kid is amazing so that they'll support you working with more kids like that.
[30:05.350 --> 30:05.710]  Marketing.
[30:06.530 --> 30:06.890]  Marketing.
[30:08.010 --> 30:10.610]  I can't wait till the next question is, like, blue.
[30:10.890 --> 30:14.310]  Like, I mean, they're getting Zen Cohen-like questions.
[30:15.350 --> 30:19.550]  One of the things that we do to keep, you know, I guess some people say, like...
[30:19.550 --> 30:23.610]  So whenever we go to conferences, they're always like, what's the secret of innovation, right?
[30:23.670 --> 30:24.430]  Because there's, like, a secret.
[30:24.910 --> 30:29.990]  But one of the things that we do that I really like, and this is, like, totally Phil's idea, was...
[30:29.990 --> 30:33.130]  Because I just want to, like, sit in a dark room and, like, hack all day.
[30:33.250 --> 30:34.990]  I don't... talking to people.
[30:35.490 --> 30:38.970]  But he's like, okay, let's, you know, let's do a weekly show and tell.
[30:38.970 --> 30:41.410]  And so we have a weekly video series that we do.
[30:41.510 --> 30:43.290]  It's every Wednesday, 7.30 p.m.
[30:43.570 --> 30:45.370]  You all know what I'm doing every Wednesday, 7.30 p.m.
[30:45.470 --> 30:47.450]  I'm doing this live Google Hangout.
[30:48.130 --> 30:51.970]  And basically we invite anybody in the world to show up for half an hour.
[30:52.010 --> 30:53.570]  And they show off what they're working on.
[30:53.650 --> 30:56.590]  And it's really great because we get people from the community.
[30:56.670 --> 30:58.370]  And we say, you know, you don't have to be a customer of ours.
[30:58.410 --> 30:59.530]  You don't even have to do electronics.
[30:59.790 --> 31:00.690]  And those are my favorite.
[31:00.790 --> 31:01.410]  The people who have, like...
[31:01.410 --> 31:05.590]  They're like, I've never purchased anything from you, but I have this, like, soft robotics thing I'm working on.
[31:05.590 --> 31:07.310]  Or this costume that I'm doing.
[31:07.350 --> 31:08.750]  Or this 3D printer I'm building.
[31:09.270 --> 31:10.390]  And they show up.
[31:10.430 --> 31:11.330]  And they show up what they're doing.
[31:11.510 --> 31:15.210]  And it's a really cool way to see what's happening in the community.
[31:15.350 --> 31:16.170]  What are people building?
[31:16.250 --> 31:17.310]  What are they passionate about?
[31:17.350 --> 31:18.330]  What are they interested in?
[31:18.530 --> 31:24.210]  And it's really inspiring because you, as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, you're running the business.
[31:24.450 --> 31:27.130]  Like, you have this enclosure that you're in.
[31:27.150 --> 31:30.270]  You're in this dollhouse of your company that you're doing.
[31:30.290 --> 31:34.450]  And it's very hard to get outside of that and see what's going on in the world around you.
[31:34.530 --> 31:37.050]  And so this is a way of us seeing what's in the community.
[31:37.050 --> 31:46.730]  And it's also an awesome recruitment tool because we hired some of our best people by meeting them through the show and tell, like, people who are doing cool stuff and we're like, oh, my God, what you're doing is so cool.
[31:46.890 --> 31:49.610]  Can we hire you and, like, have you do cool stuff with us?
[31:49.630 --> 31:50.990]  Because we want to keep this going.
[31:52.090 --> 31:58.290]  So, you know, finding people, meeting people is one of the most challenging things that you'll have as a company owner.
[31:58.290 --> 32:21.490]  But if you can go out there and welcome these people into your home by having a video show or having, you know, social media and, like, not Snapchat where it's hidden, but, like, more like a Facebook page or these Hangouts where there's interaction, where there's a forum where people can share what they're doing and how they're inspired by what you're coming out of as a business,
[32:21.530 --> 32:25.590]  you're going to get so many ideas and you're going to meet amazing people.
[32:26.570 --> 32:26.890]  Okay.
[32:27.150 --> 32:28.070]  Well, keep it going, of course.
[32:28.290 --> 32:28.890]  Don't run out of money.
[32:29.290 --> 32:30.230]  You know, number one.
[32:30.790 --> 32:35.550]  But keep it going usually means hiring really smart people and getting out of their way.
[32:35.790 --> 32:37.210]  It's a little hard because you have to fire yourself.
[32:38.690 --> 32:44.210]  You know, if you get a bunch of interesting, eclectic, diverse people, they're going to bring a lot to the table.
[32:44.350 --> 32:45.750]  They're going to have a lot of interesting things.
[32:45.830 --> 32:51.830]  They might even take you in a direction that you're not sure of, but you got to trust them if you want to get trust.
[32:51.830 --> 32:55.610]  And that's the fire yourself one that's hard.
[32:55.750 --> 33:03.110]  And that's the only thing that I've seen successfully happen of people who continue to keep it going where they're removing themselves out of the bottleneck position.
[33:03.110 --> 33:06.930]  Like, if a whole company is just built on one person, it eventually will fail.
[33:07.150 --> 33:10.250]  So keep it going by getting yourself out of the crosshairs eventually.
[33:11.410 --> 33:13.870]  What has been the most satisfying moment in business?
[33:16.870 --> 33:17.890]  First of all, what do you think?
[33:19.510 --> 33:21.070]  It happened right before we got here.
[33:21.330 --> 33:22.770]  This little girl wants to be an engineer.
[33:23.030 --> 33:23.550]  One down.
[33:24.570 --> 33:25.370]  A million to go.
[33:26.210 --> 33:26.630]  So there we go.
[33:26.770 --> 33:29.810]  I mean, like, that's the macro of it.
[33:29.990 --> 33:34.150]  When a little girl says, like, oh, is there any, like, boy engineers?
[33:34.350 --> 33:35.390]  Because they've only seen Limor.
[33:35.670 --> 33:36.630]  You know, like, we're kind of...
[33:37.330 --> 33:42.910]  Yeah, parents email us and they're like, yeah, our kid watches the show and they think engineers are just, like, pink Karen lip rings.
[33:44.310 --> 33:44.630]  Yeah.
[33:45.050 --> 33:47.650]  So, like, that's, you know, be the change you want to see in the world.
[33:47.710 --> 33:52.130]  I would say, like, that's kind of, it feels good.
[33:52.130 --> 33:53.390]  Yeah, it's a challenge.
[33:53.530 --> 33:58.570]  I mean, yeah, you're, it is waking up, staring into the void and chewing on glass.
[33:58.730 --> 34:02.630]  And so it's, the little things that happen, though, are so wonderful.
[34:02.870 --> 34:13.430]  Every time, you know, it's like, I remember two Halloweens ago, we had so many parents that emailed us and said, you know, my daughter made an Elsa dress and she has, like, blue LEDs in it.
[34:13.430 --> 34:21.850]  And she's suddenly really excited about programming and building because it isn't just, you know, oh, like, you know, robots or you have to build missiles or whatever.
[34:22.030 --> 34:24.950]  She understands that electronics is a creative art form.
[34:24.950 --> 34:34.550]  So it's like, you have to take those, like, little jewels and keep them and use them as fuel inspiration because it's, it is a challenge every day.
[34:34.710 --> 34:50.690]  Every day, there's things that are going to come up that you're, you have this vision for what you want to achieve, but getting there is going to be so rocky that every little time you have a positive experience, you kind of have to, like, hold on to that and repeat that to yourself and say,
[34:50.750 --> 34:59.750]  okay, it's worth it because, you know, I met this girl who, you know, she's so proud that she has a Girl Scout badge with Python on it because she learned Python this week.
[35:01.010 --> 35:01.530]  Awesome.
[35:02.710 --> 35:03.330]  Mel, you, Ben?
[35:05.610 --> 35:09.710]  I mean, there are just so many heartwarming moments on the BioBus.
[35:11.810 --> 35:13.690]  Some physically, like, they're actually warming hearts.
[35:14.190 --> 35:15.410]  Yeah, like...
[35:15.410 --> 35:16.250]  A little heart warmer.
[35:18.310 --> 35:25.850]  One of the first high schools that we spent a week at with the bus, there were a pair of students.
[35:25.850 --> 35:28.370]  There were juniors, Princess and Takara.
[35:28.550 --> 35:33.270]  This is in Frederick Dougal's Academy 3 in the South Bronx.
[35:36.010 --> 35:42.230]  And they're, they're looking at a sample of pond water that they had scooped up from right outside of their school and brought onto the bus.
[35:42.370 --> 35:45.350]  And they're looking at it on a pretty high power compound microscope.
[35:45.550 --> 35:52.570]  And this is the same kind of microscope that I was using during my PhD to study, you know, those cells inside of you that are crawling around.
[35:53.610 --> 35:57.630]  And they managed to find a pair of bacteria.
[35:58.310 --> 36:01.570]  And they're sort of like a circle and another circle and they're connected at the middle.
[36:02.310 --> 36:04.230]  And they said, you know, what's that?
[36:04.310 --> 36:05.890]  Why are there two of them connected to each other?
[36:06.210 --> 36:11.550]  And I told them to just take a video, start the video, and follow them.
[36:11.550 --> 36:16.150]  And they followed this bacteria and they were jiggling around and they moved.
[36:16.310 --> 36:18.790]  And so they had to adjust the stage and keep the focus really steady.
[36:18.910 --> 36:21.710]  This is really very hard work to do.
[36:21.850 --> 36:23.230]  And they did an incredible job.
[36:23.350 --> 36:30.030]  And finally, this bacterium finished mitosis and divided and there's then two bacterium.
[36:30.030 --> 36:31.470]  I mean, they freaked out.
[36:32.590 --> 36:42.230]  And they grabbed that video for themselves and actually did a voice over of it of what the bacteria was thinking as it was in the process of turning into two bacteria.
[36:42.750 --> 36:49.310]  One of those girls ended up going to college and studying biology as partly, at least, as a result of that experience.
[36:49.570 --> 36:52.710]  I mean, you know, that's the reason why we do what we do.
[36:52.710 --> 36:58.270]  And those are, you know, one of the experiences that just keeps me and the entire team going.
[37:00.130 --> 37:00.650]  Yeah.
[37:01.570 --> 37:03.510]  It's really similar for me, too.
[37:04.610 --> 37:09.630]  You know, I started Cornfield Electronics to put out TV-B-Gone into the world.
[37:10.090 --> 37:17.150]  That got me invited to my first hacker conference, which happened to be the sixth HOPE, which changed my life forever for the better.
[37:17.310 --> 37:19.770]  And it's been no turning back.
[37:21.630 --> 37:32.630]  That showed me that I can teach soldering, which I really love, which brought me to my next hacker conference, which made it obvious that teaching soldering is something I love and that other people love doing.
[37:33.990 --> 37:41.530]  And got me to one where they talked about starting your own hacker space, which I co-founded in Noisebridge, San Francisco.
[37:42.210 --> 37:47.410]  And that got me teaching more, which made more people realize, which sends me out in the world more to teach more.
[37:48.010 --> 37:54.450]  And the interesting thing, which was unintended, is that that's a fantastic PR for my company and my product.
[37:55.010 --> 37:56.430]  And everyone's happy.
[37:56.550 --> 37:59.150]  It doesn't have to be manipulating people into wanting my product.
[37:59.190 --> 38:01.810]  I would hate that.
[38:02.470 --> 38:05.650]  If I had to do that to make a living, I would do something else.
[38:06.810 --> 38:07.850]  But teaching.
[38:08.130 --> 38:09.350]  I've always loved teaching.
[38:09.870 --> 38:15.470]  And, you know, being an inspirational source for others just feels amazing.
[38:15.810 --> 38:18.890]  You know, I don't know why more people don't share and do that more.
[38:18.950 --> 38:21.310]  And helping others is just great.
[38:22.510 --> 38:27.550]  And every time I go into any kind of event or sometimes people just email me out of the blue.
[38:28.170 --> 38:34.350]  And they say, you know, you taught me how to solder at this whatever conference or hackerspace three years ago.
[38:34.670 --> 38:37.730]  And now I'm... I didn't... first time I've ever soldered.
[38:37.950 --> 38:39.890]  And now I'm making a living doing electronics.
[38:40.390 --> 38:42.630]  And that's happened more times than I can count.
[38:42.630 --> 38:44.670]  And boys and girls.
[38:44.810 --> 38:45.490]  It doesn't matter.
[38:46.030 --> 38:47.170]  You know, it's just...
[38:48.710 --> 38:49.790]  And transsexuals even.
[38:50.030 --> 38:51.270]  You know, it doesn't matter.
[38:51.430 --> 38:52.410]  Gender does not matter.
[38:52.690 --> 38:53.790]  Age doesn't matter.
[38:54.050 --> 38:55.690]  Skill level at the beginning doesn't matter.
[38:55.870 --> 38:58.990]  Just people can be inspired, find something they love and cruise off.
[38:59.090 --> 39:01.910]  And then it changes their life and they can make a living doing what they love.
[39:02.050 --> 39:06.410]  And that just makes me feel great and reminds me why I do what I do.
[39:08.710 --> 39:09.150]  Awesome.
[39:10.070 --> 39:19.090]  A shopkeeper was dismayed when a brand new business, much like his own, opened up next door and erected a huge sign which read, best quality.
[39:19.410 --> 39:30.090]  He was horrified when another competitor opened up next door on his right and announces its arrival with an even larger sign reading, lowest prices.
[39:30.430 --> 39:33.170]  The shopkeeper panicked until he got an idea.
[39:33.490 --> 39:36.210]  He put the biggest sign of the mall over his own shop.
[39:36.210 --> 39:37.690]  It read, main entrance.
[39:39.850 --> 39:42.750]  How has your hacker mindset helped you in your business?
[39:43.930 --> 39:44.450]  Mitch?
[39:45.170 --> 39:48.150]  Well, no, like...
[39:50.410 --> 39:53.910]  Hacking is a way of looking at things, a way of life.
[39:54.170 --> 39:56.990]  And all of us in this room can relate to it.
[39:57.470 --> 40:03.110]  There's a lot of things in our culture which tell us that you're supposed to do these things.
[40:03.110 --> 40:06.410]  You're supposed to do what you're supposed to do and you're not supposed to do these other things.
[40:06.770 --> 40:12.070]  And all of us have done things we're not supposed to do and found advantages in doing that.
[40:12.270 --> 40:15.550]  Using things that were intended for one thing but using it for another.
[40:16.010 --> 40:20.130]  Trying things just for trying them just to see what would happen and it's often unexpected.
[40:20.130 --> 40:23.310]  And sometimes those are really cool and you can learn a lot from that.
[40:23.810 --> 40:30.610]  And it's just a way of life of just continually exploring and trying things and seeing what happens.
[40:30.810 --> 40:36.930]  If you don't do that and you just always do what you're supposed to do, that's really a life of not taking any risks.
[40:36.930 --> 40:40.810]  And we already know where that leads.
[40:41.830 --> 40:52.310]  But if you do things that you're not supposed to do, whatever that might be, just because it's cool, the unexpected results can give you so many ideas.
[40:52.590 --> 40:57.710]  And that's where real innovation happens and not just the buzz word that starts with I.
[40:59.690 --> 41:06.390]  And, yeah, and, you know, again, you know, we all started businesses with ideas that are really stupid.
[41:06.390 --> 41:15.690]  If you were an MBA that, you know, you did the normal thing, you're supposed to start a business as an entrepreneur, you get an MBA hopefully from Stanford, the best.
[41:16.230 --> 41:22.310]  No one who has an MBA from Stanford would start a company doing open-source hardware.
[41:24.230 --> 41:34.470]  No one with an MBA from Stanford would start a business with a remote control that turns TVs off in public places, you know, or start a nonprofit, you know, where's the money in that?
[41:35.970 --> 41:41.090]  So, you know, microscopes, cells dividing, who the f*ck cares?
[41:41.870 --> 41:43.730]  You know, this is not what MBAs do.
[41:43.930 --> 41:47.470]  But people who see the world in their own way go their own direction.
[41:47.470 --> 41:51.450]  They find opportunities in places others don't and people relate.
[41:51.650 --> 41:53.230]  They resonate and they support us.
[41:56.560 --> 41:57.160]  All right.
[41:57.320 --> 42:06.660]  So when I first bought the bus, it was actually in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, drove a day and a half before it broke.
[42:09.100 --> 42:10.980]  Didn't even make it out of South Dakota.
[42:11.120 --> 42:13.780]  We were in Rapid City, like the west end of South Dakota.
[42:17.900 --> 42:23.920]  Turns out that it was a, you know, the transmission control line and I didn't know anything about buses.
[42:24.080 --> 42:31.400]  I mean, I had, I had, I had, I used my parents' car when I was in high school and then I moved to New York City and didn't drive or have any automotive experience.
[42:31.400 --> 42:39.660]  I mean, fortunately I had electronics lab in school and so managed to like trace out the wire, like solder.
[42:40.060 --> 42:40.780]  Oh, okay.
[42:40.900 --> 42:41.660]  It's not that good.
[42:41.800 --> 42:52.100]  So what I ended up doing is jumping from the main battery terminal to the neutral solenoid on the transmission, just bypassing the entire circuit so that I could actually hit a switch.
[42:52.100 --> 43:07.580]  Well, when I say I, what I mean is my wife, who was actually just my girlfriend at the time, whenever we wanted to put the bus into drive, she would run to the back, open up the transmission hatch, flip the switch that we had soldered together to bypass all the electronics,
[43:07.780 --> 43:11.120]  you know, the gear shifter electronics, and just put the bus into drive.
[43:11.740 --> 43:15.100]  Then she would close the hatch, run back up to the front, and then we would actually like go.
[43:16.120 --> 43:19.960]  So that's like the stupid example of how hacking helped.
[43:22.420 --> 43:23.480]  And it works.
[43:23.600 --> 43:24.140]  And it works.
[43:25.500 --> 43:26.800]  And she married me.
[43:29.340 --> 43:46.940]  I think the other maybe illustrative example to give is at the very beginning, and related to what Mitch was saying, in the very beginning, you know, like the exhibit hall here at HOPE, like compare that to like the New York Auto Show, right?
[43:47.060 --> 43:59.020]  Like that, you know, I was really worried that, so like, you know, the Natural History Museum, that's the New York Auto Show, and the biobus then was like, at best, the exhibit hall here at HOPE, right?
[43:59.020 --> 44:07.940]  In terms of like polish, and marketing, and flashy lights, and all that stuff, right?
[44:08.020 --> 44:10.280]  So it was very bare bones.
[44:10.580 --> 44:13.840]  It was bad in a lot of ways.
[44:14.720 --> 44:32.440]  But the key ideas were there where, you know, we had managed to literally hack together this functioning research-grade science lab, with some, you know, serious help from microscope manufacturers who donated the microscopes, but still managed to make it all work,
[44:32.440 --> 44:40.180]  so that when the kids came in, like the teachers would see the outside of the bus, and then they'd sort of walk in, and it would get worse.
[44:40.300 --> 44:44.560]  And then the students would notice the microscopes and the video screens, and that would be the end.
[44:44.680 --> 44:46.960]  They would just be hooked on the actual tech.
[44:46.960 --> 44:55.240]  So, you know, it was, you know, hackery in the sense that, you know, it was just the essential, right?
[44:55.340 --> 45:01.560]  It was just the prototype, like proof of principle, which got us started, and not being too worried.
[45:01.700 --> 45:04.440]  I mean, even if I was worried about it, I don't know what I could have done about it.
[45:04.520 --> 45:05.760]  But not being too worried, right?
[45:05.860 --> 45:08.240]  Don't let that prevent you from trying things out, right?
[45:08.560 --> 45:10.400]  With that sort of bare bones prototype.
[45:12.840 --> 45:26.460]  I think when, and it's kind of, Mitch mentioned this a little bit, is that when you start a business, there's a lot of, you know, and there's like these magazines, and they'll kind of pressure you with all these like best practices, like, oh, you should have an MBA,
[45:26.560 --> 45:29.680]  and you should have a business plan, and you should go to the bank and get a loan.
[45:30.220 --> 45:41.980]  And all these rule sets that are being pushed to you through like media and how business is supposed to work, when you're a hacker, you realize, like, those are best practices, but they're optional.
[45:42.380 --> 45:43.440]  You know, you can go around them.
[45:43.660 --> 45:45.140]  There are some legal obligations.
[45:45.300 --> 45:47.280]  You have to pay your taxes, and you have to pay your payroll.
[45:47.440 --> 45:50.020]  And there's a couple other legal obligations you have as a business owner.
[45:50.540 --> 45:56.940]  But other than those specific rules of April 15th, you got a file, everything else is up for grabs.
[45:57.120 --> 46:01.180]  I mean, you could use QuickBooks, or you could just keep it in a text file.
[46:01.380 --> 46:04.340]  You can, you know, sell things this way, you can sell things that way.
[46:04.340 --> 46:10.060]  You can, you know, run your business out of a fancy office, or you could just do it out of your basement.
[46:10.220 --> 46:14.060]  All of these things are... these best practices are just suggestions.
[46:14.440 --> 46:22.060]  And once you realize they're just suggestions, and you don't have to do them, you actually kind of get freed up a little bit to explore it the way you want to.
[46:22.140 --> 46:37.340]  I mean, what is really neat about being a hacker and people who understand kind of this hacker spirit is, you know, if you're... if you find an open-source tool that does what you want, or you have this attack vector you want to do, and you have to learn a new programming language,
[46:37.740 --> 46:43.420]  you're not gonna say, like, shoot, I have to go to school for four years to learn this programming language, and then I'm gonna come back and look at this exploit.
[46:43.520 --> 46:47.480]  No, you're gonna go and like read about it, maybe pick up a book or check some websites.
[46:47.640 --> 46:49.380]  You're going to immerse yourself in that knowledge.
[46:49.860 --> 46:53.160]  And then you're gonna come back and attack it with all the knowledge you've had.
[46:53.160 --> 46:55.680]  You will go and learn the skills that you need to learn.
[46:55.820 --> 47:01.140]  And that's actually the most important thing because when you start your business, you have to wear so many hats.
[47:01.280 --> 47:05.560]  You have to do the bookkeeping and you have to do sales and you have to do marketing and you have to manage your website.
[47:05.980 --> 47:13.080]  And you have to do pricing and purchasing and rent and cleaning up and making sure the coffee machine works.
[47:13.200 --> 47:14.980]  All of these things are going to be your responsibility.
[47:15.380 --> 47:22.760]  And so having that hacker mindset of, okay, I need to understand now how to do this kind of report.
[47:22.760 --> 47:24.160]  You will go and learn that.
[47:24.340 --> 47:24.900]  You'll figure that out.
[47:25.000 --> 47:26.260]  You'll absorb all that knowledge.
[47:26.660 --> 47:32.120]  And then you'll just do it rather than feeling like you need a formalized education or path.
[47:32.360 --> 47:34.360]  That stuff is... it's best practice.
[47:34.380 --> 47:34.940]  It's optional.
[47:35.080 --> 47:36.460]  You don't need to have that.
[47:36.500 --> 47:37.520]  You don't need to have an MBA.
[47:38.620 --> 47:39.740]  Okay, I'm going to recap.
[47:39.940 --> 47:42.200]  So this sign thing that's going on, everyone's making signs.
[47:42.360 --> 47:50.780]  So I would get into selling all the sign people components and like blinking LEDs and stuff because that whole block is buying a bunch of signs.
[47:50.780 --> 47:52.900]  That would be the first thing that I would do.
[47:53.060 --> 47:53.940]  So they can keep making...
[47:53.940 --> 47:53.960]  The sign division.
[47:54.220 --> 47:55.460]  They can make all the signs they want.
[47:55.560 --> 48:03.480]  But on a serious note, if that is going to be the vibe, someone opens up shop next to you and puts up a sign that says what they do, great.
[48:04.140 --> 48:06.060]  I would show people how to do it.
[48:06.140 --> 48:09.940]  And then I would completely eliminate their one-word marketing phrase.
[48:09.960 --> 48:12.360]  And then I would sell components on how to do it.
[48:12.420 --> 48:14.360]  I would surround it with good information.
[48:14.360 --> 48:17.580]  And if you put out really good information, that's a form of advertising.
[48:18.180 --> 48:20.860]  So they can continue to build up a market.
[48:21.060 --> 48:23.140]  They could advertise all they want.
[48:23.340 --> 48:26.380]  But in the end, if you do a better job, everyone's going to go to you.
[48:26.460 --> 48:30.200]  And if you look at what we do, which is DOI electronics, there's a lot of people doing it.
[48:30.300 --> 48:35.220]  But when you search and search and search and you really want something to work, you probably end up at Adafruit.
[48:35.420 --> 48:38.340]  And that's how we got around the whole someone's making another sign.
[48:38.340 --> 48:40.680]  And we do sell LED strips that make beautiful signs.
[48:40.900 --> 48:41.440]  Yeah, lovely signs.
[48:42.720 --> 48:43.160]  Awesome.
[48:43.380 --> 48:47.120]  I have a bunch more questions, but I do want to shift into logistics.
[48:47.220 --> 48:54.100]  And maybe if we can do like rapid fire for five minutes, I have just like a few more questions that I would love for you guys to answer.
[48:55.220 --> 49:00.000]  So, if you received a grant for $1 million with no requirements, how would you invest in your business?
[49:02.240 --> 49:06.080]  I would actually not invest in my business.
[49:06.080 --> 49:09.920]  I would help lots of hackerspaces all over the world get started.
[49:10.240 --> 49:10.600]  Awesome.
[49:14.790 --> 49:18.250]  Oddly enough, my answer was going to be give it to Mitch to see what he wanted to do with it.
[49:18.370 --> 49:20.030]  I'm not kidding, because we don't need a million dollars.
[49:20.150 --> 49:21.890]  We'd say, Mitch, do you want a million dollars?
[49:25.430 --> 49:33.190]  I would complete the fundraising campaign that we're working on right now to build our next bus.
[49:33.350 --> 49:36.370]  So we could stop fundraising for a while and actually build the next bus.
[49:37.250 --> 49:37.530]  Awesome.
[49:39.730 --> 49:40.210]  I don't know.
[49:40.330 --> 49:41.550]  I mean, like, other than give it to Mitch.
[49:41.750 --> 49:42.970]  I mean, I think that...
[49:43.610 --> 49:44.810]  That's like the most entertaining.
[49:45.030 --> 49:53.350]  I mean, I think it would be really cool to, if we had a grant, we would figure out a way to use that to get all the electronics to people who need it.
[49:53.650 --> 49:59.630]  There's a lot of organizations out there that do need the money or maybe divide up the grant money and give it to other groups.
[49:59.630 --> 50:10.550]  I mean, we have met so many lovely nonprofits and organizations that are doing good work on the ground that I'd probably split it up and say, like, hey, all of y'all, you do what you do best.
[50:10.550 --> 50:13.010]  You know how to reach the people better than we do.
[50:14.790 --> 50:19.850]  And Mr. Robot, the big financially successful company is blatantly named Evil Corp.
[50:20.030 --> 50:22.850]  How do you feel your ethics are challenged as a business person?
[50:25.070 --> 50:25.850]  Yeah, I can start.
[50:26.550 --> 50:27.850]  We're tested every single day.
[50:28.410 --> 50:29.530]  How do you treat your employees?
[50:29.650 --> 50:30.430]  How do you treat your customers?
[50:31.310 --> 50:33.710]  If you're an open-source company, are you ever going to go back on that?
[50:35.050 --> 50:39.030]  If you put out your values, that is where you're tested.
[50:39.650 --> 50:45.770]  And one of the things, and this is just a piece of advice, if you're starting a company, be really clear what your ethics and values are.
[50:45.970 --> 50:51.810]  That can make it harder for marketers to f*ck it up later because they'll have to try really hard to break all the public things you said you weren't going to do.
[50:51.810 --> 50:55.310]  Everyone always refers to Google's don't be evil and now they don't say it as much.
[50:55.570 --> 50:59.970]  Maybe be more specific the next time you start a giant company or something.
[51:00.130 --> 51:06.030]  That way it can keep going forward and the test is easier to pass for the people that are running the company.
[51:08.350 --> 51:10.890]  I'm like the only person who hasn't watched Mr. Robot.
[51:12.170 --> 51:13.350]  You're not the only one.
[51:13.610 --> 51:13.910]  Okay, sorry.
[51:15.470 --> 51:31.190]  I think that one thing I've learned, I've spoken to a bunch of people about the culture of a company because I think, and this is actually, the more I think about it, the more it becomes clearly true, is the culture and the values of the company do come from the top.
[51:31.610 --> 51:42.070]  The company that your leader, your founder, your CEO, whoever is the person at the top of the company, the owner, that is the values that everybody else has.
[51:42.070 --> 51:50.770]  And so if you want to... Evil Corp isn't Evil Corp because like some committee got together and was like, hey, we used to be Good Corp and now we're Evil Corp.
[51:50.990 --> 51:55.390]  Evil Corp is Evil Corp because the person who is running Evil Corp, that's their value.
[51:55.650 --> 52:11.310]  So whatever, when you start a company, your values, the way you treat your company, the employees that you have, the way you treat your vendors even, or the people you work with, that's how, that is who you are.
[52:11.470 --> 52:16.970]  And so like, it's, it isn't, it isn't like a slow descent into like, we're Evil.
[52:17.110 --> 52:23.410]  It's like, it's something that you, you have to basically make the decision when you found the company, what are the values that you have?
[52:23.550 --> 52:27.070]  And they're like very personal values that you want to establish and grow.
[52:27.170 --> 52:36.810]  And as you hire more people, those people who you bring in, who are probably naturally very good people, if they see that Evil is accepted, they'll start acting Evil.
[52:36.950 --> 52:44.330]  If they see that, you act politely, properly, and in a good way to people, that's how they're going to mimic you.
[52:44.490 --> 52:55.730]  So yeah, you, as you, as the founder, as the owner of the company, it's your responsibility to set the values, to make it however you, whatever values you have, that's what sets the values of the company.
[52:57.430 --> 53:00.090]  Yeah, I mean, I second all that.
[53:01.790 --> 53:10.010]  You know, running a nonprofit, there's, there's not the profit motive as much to, to have to worry about.
[53:10.530 --> 53:19.850]  I think for me, it's like trying to expand and trying to, to, to, to do things like aggressively without being a jerk.
[53:20.530 --> 53:29.930]  I think it's like, you know, something that I struggle with, you know, like we actually now have a lawyer and sometimes the lawyer will get in a negotiation with me and the lawyer is being a jerk.
[53:30.070 --> 53:38.290]  And I'm like, you know, like, so that, you know, I would say that that's, you know, sometimes can be, can be, you know, a challenge.
[53:38.450 --> 53:41.630]  Like, you know, how do you, you know, you, you, you don't want to be soft.
[53:41.750 --> 53:55.310]  You don't want people to take advantage of you, but at the same time, like you want to set that example, not just for your own staff, but also for, you know, the, the, the people you work with and the community, right, to create positivity and, and people to help you and,
[53:55.550 --> 53:57.810]  you know, to bring the whole community up.
[53:57.930 --> 53:59.570]  So that's definitely challenging.
[54:00.890 --> 54:01.410]  Yeah.
[54:02.610 --> 54:19.350]  Well, having a vision and sticking to it, but being willing to re-evaluate it if you get data that shows that things are better another way, but keeping in mind that the power of denial is something that people are really good at, and especially when it comes to addictive substances like money,
[54:19.530 --> 54:24.450]  which is, I think, the most addictive substance known to people on the planet.
[54:25.230 --> 54:33.350]  Having a company that exists to maximize profits, especially Evil Corp, is going to be having the motive of maximizing profits in the next quarter.
[54:33.650 --> 54:37.150]  No long-term plans and consequences be damned.
[54:37.670 --> 54:41.990]  So, to live with integrity, the consequences are super important.
[54:42.330 --> 54:48.070]  To do stuff to the best of your ability towards consequences that you think are positive for you and those around you.
[54:48.910 --> 54:50.990]  And not maximizing profit.
[54:51.450 --> 54:57.430]  You know, Phil said before, making enough money so that you don't go out of business is important, but if you have enough, you don't have to grow.
[54:58.710 --> 55:01.390]  You know, the normal thing is you must grow.
[55:01.650 --> 55:03.790]  You don't have to f*cking grow.
[55:09.570 --> 55:16.230]  So, I think it's way more important to work with people in every level that I like.
[55:17.070 --> 55:21.350]  You know, the world is full of so many way cool people, I'll never be able to meet all of them.
[55:21.950 --> 55:25.770]  There's no way in hell I'll be able to meet all the way cool people that I would love to meet.
[55:25.770 --> 55:28.750]  So, why don't I even spend two seconds with some f*cking asshole?
[55:29.790 --> 55:35.390]  And that includes customers, it includes employees, it includes lawyers that I have to hire, it includes everything.
[55:35.890 --> 55:41.030]  So, my number one rule of doing business is only work with people you like.
[55:42.030 --> 55:42.610]  Awesome.
[55:45.510 --> 55:48.730]  What was more important invention than the telephone?
[55:49.450 --> 55:50.370]  The second one.
[55:51.110 --> 55:55.050]  A lot of hopeful businesses, people often ask, how do I get started?
[55:55.290 --> 55:56.490]  What are your suggestions?
[55:56.910 --> 56:00.650]  This question borders on logistics, so we'll transition on this question to Charles.
[56:01.650 --> 56:02.190]  Okay.
[56:02.370 --> 56:03.770]  After we answer.
[56:06.190 --> 56:09.590]  The most important invention...
[56:09.590 --> 56:10.210]  How to get started?
[56:10.530 --> 56:12.110]  How do I get started?
[56:12.310 --> 56:12.970]  How do I get started?
[56:13.330 --> 56:15.830]  Well, I have to be a broken record again.
[56:16.150 --> 56:20.570]  Explore and do what you love and find something you're passionate about, what's something you find meaning in doing.
[56:20.790 --> 56:25.690]  If that's something that's really that much for you, chances are that it'll be for other people.
[56:25.810 --> 56:27.710]  And if it's enough people, you find an opportunity.
[56:28.250 --> 56:32.270]  And it's something that can change your life and the people around you in a positive way.
[56:32.470 --> 56:33.770]  And people will pay you to do it.
[56:34.150 --> 56:35.130]  It's pretty simple.
[56:36.490 --> 56:36.850]  Yeah.
[56:37.090 --> 56:39.610]  And take that...
[56:39.610 --> 56:42.150]  And for me, the key was like starting simple.
[56:42.330 --> 56:44.510]  I think, as I said before, you know, just try it.
[56:44.690 --> 56:47.450]  You know, like even if it's not the exact thing that you want to try.
[56:47.450 --> 56:50.730]  You know, try some version of it, even if it's a simple version of it.
[56:50.830 --> 56:54.610]  You know, to give you some idea of, right, like, is this really the thing?
[56:54.790 --> 56:56.230]  And, you know, give you some momentum.
[56:59.290 --> 57:04.370]  I think that the way I started Adafruit was completely by accident.
[57:04.410 --> 57:06.770]  I was just posting up these projects that I really like doing.
[57:06.930 --> 57:08.710]  I was like, oh, I'm building this circuit and here's this kit.
[57:08.710 --> 57:09.990]  And I'm really into it.
[57:10.070 --> 57:17.030]  And I was really excited and I posted on my blog almost every other day about what I was doing, learning electronics and making circuit boards.
[57:17.950 --> 57:24.770]  And even, you know, ten years ago, people would just start commenting and saying, like, take my money or whatever the meme was at the time.
[57:25.190 --> 57:27.650]  And I think that's actually a really good way to start.
[57:27.790 --> 57:30.070]  You should do what you personally find really interesting.
[57:30.630 --> 57:33.210]  And like Phil said, information is marketing.
[57:33.350 --> 57:35.130]  I mean, whether or not it means to be.
[57:35.390 --> 57:48.090]  If you are talking to people and doing presentations and going to events and sharing what you love, because one of the things that really drives me a little crazy is people who are like, well, I have this great business idea, but I can't tell you what it is.
[57:48.150 --> 57:48.950]  Is it going to be successful?
[57:49.070 --> 57:50.070]  And I'm like, I don't f*cking know.
[57:50.210 --> 57:59.350]  Like, you know, it's like this fear of like, oh, I can't tell anybody because what if somebody takes my stupid idea or, you know, or my brilliant idea and that'll ruin it.
[57:59.350 --> 58:00.550]  But that's not actually how it works.
[58:00.650 --> 58:03.450]  The more you share your idea, the more, I mean, that's marketing.
[58:03.590 --> 58:05.770]  You have to share it to tell people about what it is.
[58:05.950 --> 58:08.930]  And then you'll get feedback if people really like it.
[58:09.050 --> 58:12.530]  And I see people who start successful kit businesses in this industry.
[58:12.750 --> 58:15.750]  It's because they built something that they really loved and it blew up.
[58:15.830 --> 58:17.910]  And everyone is just like, please sell this to me.
[58:18.030 --> 58:20.230]  Like they'll beg you to go into business.
[58:20.250 --> 58:23.170]  And that's kind of how you can get started in anything that you do.
[58:23.550 --> 58:28.450]  You know, if you're an excellent chef, eventually people will say like, please, please, please open a restaurant.
[58:28.450 --> 58:32.150]  If you're a great artist, people will eventually ask you to sell them your work.
[58:32.270 --> 58:35.050]  I mean, people are very good at throwing money at whatever they like.
[58:35.110 --> 58:36.270]  And they'll usually tell you.
[58:37.250 --> 58:37.630]  Okay.
[58:37.750 --> 58:38.490]  Well, how to get started.
[58:39.010 --> 58:40.490]  There's never been a better time.
[58:40.690 --> 58:42.390]  There is so much information out there.
[58:42.450 --> 58:44.730]  It's not like it used to be where it was so difficult.
[58:45.310 --> 58:47.150]  If you're in the U.S., it's easy to start a business.
[58:47.730 --> 58:49.170]  Like you don't have to go to a library anymore.
[58:49.270 --> 58:50.770]  Like you could do almost everything online.
[58:51.310 --> 58:54.010]  There's probably too many businesses that start, but that's great.
[58:54.010 --> 58:57.610]  So it's almost like, how can you not get started at this point?
[58:57.770 --> 58:59.630]  You're going to be talking yourself out of it.
[59:00.310 --> 59:01.730]  There's so many stories.
[59:01.950 --> 59:02.910]  There's so many business books.
[59:03.030 --> 59:04.110]  There's so many people you could talk to.
[59:04.410 --> 59:05.930]  There's so many places you can visit.
[59:07.530 --> 59:08.750]  It's never been a better time.
[59:09.090 --> 59:09.450]  Start now.
[59:11.650 --> 59:12.350]  Do it.
[59:14.510 --> 59:14.950]  Okay.
[59:15.070 --> 59:16.370]  I'm going to hop over to the lectern.
[59:16.910 --> 59:17.230]  Okay.
[59:17.630 --> 59:18.070]  Later.
[59:20.450 --> 59:21.770]  He's starting a business right now.
[59:23.370 --> 59:24.710]  Can't wait another second.
[59:27.210 --> 59:27.650]  Okay.
[59:27.890 --> 59:28.290]  Can you hear me?
[59:30.130 --> 59:36.130]  So I've been involved in the last couple of years in a lot of people trying to get projects off the ground and startup companies.
[59:36.130 --> 59:44.310]  This is going to be a somewhat abbreviated brain dump of all the information I have on avoiding traps.
[59:45.010 --> 59:46.870]  And then we'll go back into questions with the panel.
[59:56.660 --> 01:00:02.400]  So running a business can be elegant and fulfilling if you're prepared for the unexpected.
[01:00:06.440 --> 01:00:13.080]  And Buckminster Fuller said that when I'm working on a problem, I know that I never think about beauty.
[01:00:13.080 --> 01:00:17.180]  But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong.
[01:00:17.180 --> 01:00:25.980]  And I've noticed in watching businesses start up and grow that this is usually also true in business problems.
[01:00:26.140 --> 01:00:27.640]  It's not just an engineering thing.
[01:00:29.260 --> 01:00:33.980]  So if something doesn't feel right, research a little bit more.
[01:00:34.220 --> 01:00:35.020]  Talk to more people.
[01:00:35.420 --> 01:00:38.040]  Figure out why it doesn't feel right before you move forward.
[01:00:39.760 --> 01:00:43.300]  So I'm going to break this down into kind of four main things.
[01:00:44.660 --> 01:00:47.140]  First is business plan.
[01:00:47.820 --> 01:00:52.240]  You can Google how do I make a business plan.
[01:00:52.560 --> 01:00:55.000]  There are so many examples of that.
[01:00:55.340 --> 01:00:57.680]  There are a lot of different approaches to it.
[01:00:58.380 --> 01:01:02.200]  But reading them will help you even if you don't write your own.
[01:01:02.440 --> 01:01:11.600]  Just understanding how people pitch other people on why their business will be successful is a really good exercise in making your own successful.
[01:01:12.400 --> 01:01:24.220]  Just going through that exercise even if you're not going to investors of saying, okay, this is step one and step one leads to step two and step two leads to actual profit because...
[01:01:27.960 --> 01:01:31.340]  So a lot of people say fail fast and fail often.
[01:01:32.940 --> 01:01:35.360]  You want to bootstrap when you're starting out.
[01:01:35.540 --> 01:01:38.160]  You don't want to spend money on random things.
[01:01:38.280 --> 01:01:42.380]  You want to spend as little money on unnecessary things as possible.
[01:01:43.400 --> 01:01:47.620]  Because starting a business you don't know when it's going to start to function.
[01:01:48.100 --> 01:01:50.640]  You don't know when it's going to actually start to turn a profit.
[01:01:50.860 --> 01:01:54.520]  So you want all the money that you have when you start.
[01:01:55.000 --> 01:02:00.000]  You want it to last as long as possible because you don't know when the engine is going to actually turn on.
[01:02:02.320 --> 01:02:07.580]  But again, you do need to take some chances and just kind of throw in when it looks really right.
[01:02:11.560 --> 01:02:17.480]  So, talking about money, money is expensive in many ways.
[01:02:17.760 --> 01:02:20.940]  So, if you go to VCs, you're gonna give up equity.
[01:02:21.060 --> 01:02:24.980]  Equity is the percentages of your company that you give up.
[01:02:25.140 --> 01:02:28.400]  If you own the entire business, you have 100% equity.
[01:02:28.640 --> 01:02:34.180]  If you give your employees 25% of the business, then you have 75% equity.
[01:02:34.180 --> 01:02:38.840]  And then when you go to take investment, that then dilutes.
[01:02:39.000 --> 01:02:43.460]  So, you no longer have 75 and they no longer have 25.
[01:02:43.780 --> 01:02:45.520]  There's another player in the room.
[01:02:45.520 --> 01:02:47.260]  So, all those numbers go down.
[01:02:49.060 --> 01:02:51.840]  But you can set stuff aside when you get started.
[01:02:52.160 --> 01:02:53.920]  So, you can plan it out.
[01:02:54.040 --> 01:02:55.280]  Like, I'm gonna keep 35.
[01:02:55.300 --> 01:02:59.020]  I'm gonna give 25 to my key employees.
[01:03:00.060 --> 01:03:04.920]  Which investors really tend to like that you are not the linchpin.
[01:03:05.460 --> 01:03:07.240]  That you have trusted other people.
[01:03:07.420 --> 01:03:09.840]  You've given up some control because that's very important.
[01:03:10.500 --> 01:03:15.780]  A lot of businesses fail because it's all on one person and that person doesn't trust their team.
[01:03:15.780 --> 01:03:24.080]  So, if you immediately, when you're setting up your business plan to go to investors, say, I'm already trusting these people.
[01:03:24.080 --> 01:03:31.780]  And they're going to have a piece of the company as long as they've kind of ridden it out for a while.
[01:03:31.940 --> 01:03:33.200]  So, you put that in a contract.
[01:03:33.200 --> 01:03:36.640]  It's called the vesting schedule for equity.
[01:03:36.960 --> 01:03:39.640]  So, you have your first employee.
[01:03:39.640 --> 01:03:47.340]  And in their contract, it'll say, you know, at three years, they will have accumulated all of their equity.
[01:03:47.540 --> 01:03:51.220]  But you kind of feed it to them a little bit at a time.
[01:03:51.480 --> 01:03:53.120]  So, they earn it as they go along.
[01:03:53.200 --> 01:03:56.140]  You don't immediately give your first employee 5% of the company.
[01:03:56.340 --> 01:03:57.620]  You set it in the contract.
[01:03:57.620 --> 01:03:59.620]  So, it comes out over time.
[01:04:00.300 --> 01:04:05.740]  And that protects you and it also protects them so that the time that they put in isn't wasted.
[01:04:08.760 --> 01:04:11.160]  Grants can be extremely expensive.
[01:04:12.040 --> 01:04:27.360]  If you take money from the city of New York or the state of New York or the federal government, the process of, okay, you have won the grant, you then have to fill out all this paperwork and go through all these processes to prove things as you go along.
[01:04:27.360 --> 01:04:31.840]  There are legal requirements that you just kind of justify every step.
[01:04:32.060 --> 01:04:38.320]  And the bureaucracy can outweigh the value of the money that you got from the grant.
[01:04:38.340 --> 01:04:47.960]  So, you really have to be careful about taking money from other people in a loan or any way like that because money is expensive any way you get it.
[01:04:48.040 --> 01:04:55.720]  You really want to just have a business that makes money from the start and not take money from other people to get it started if at all possible.
[01:04:55.720 --> 01:04:57.760]  This is why you bootstrap a startup.
[01:04:57.960 --> 01:05:03.120]  It's really easy with an app, not so easy if you have to have product and things like that on hand.
[01:05:06.280 --> 01:05:11.300]  Don't take on an investor that you wouldn't want to be married to if you swang that way.
[01:05:14.840 --> 01:05:25.760]  If they're obviously crazy or a terrible human being, maybe don't get into a really powerful legally binding relationship long term with them.
[01:05:26.440 --> 01:05:31.920]  Trust your instincts and if you have bad instincts or really unsure, have a friend meet them.
[01:05:33.160 --> 01:05:46.880]  If they're your friends already and they're in business and you haven't worked with them in business, talk to people who've been with that friend in business and done relationships with them to see how they performed in the past.
[01:05:46.880 --> 01:05:54.920]  Because a friend is a different relationship from a business partner or a part owner of your business or a backer.
[01:05:55.220 --> 01:05:58.600]  They may act very differently in a different relationship.
[01:05:59.400 --> 01:06:01.000]  So trust but verify.
[01:06:03.340 --> 01:06:06.360]  Pick investors who can bring knowledge and connections.
[01:06:06.800 --> 01:06:14.180]  The biggest advantage of having a good investor is possibly less the money they bring and more the network and domain expertise they bring.
[01:06:14.180 --> 01:06:19.440]  You might give equity to someone who isn't sure they're about investing money in your business.
[01:06:19.600 --> 01:06:23.480]  But they might make phone calls for you that open huge doors.
[01:06:24.160 --> 01:06:26.200]  That usually requires compensation.
[01:06:26.200 --> 01:06:41.600]  So you can set up a contract with someone that say, if they help you bring in an investment that will take 30% of your company, when they secure that for you, they get 7% of the company.
[01:06:41.600 --> 01:06:43.640]  And so they don't have to invest the money.
[01:06:44.020 --> 01:06:49.720]  They just have to trust you enough to make the phone call that says, I want you to meet with this person who has a great idea.
[01:06:50.600 --> 01:06:55.020]  And that's actually how a lot of businesses get started with really rolling along.
[01:06:55.980 --> 01:07:03.980]  But really, you want to start by proving yourself a little bit in terms of the business functions before you go to any kind of investors.
[01:07:03.980 --> 01:07:07.260]  You want to get some test information out there.
[01:07:07.360 --> 01:07:13.740]  You want to have data when you go to investors because real investors will want to know... they want to see your work.
[01:07:14.720 --> 01:07:20.960]  And it's getting harder and harder to get things like apps funded because the investors have been burned so many times.
[01:07:20.960 --> 01:07:28.140]  The seed investors and the VCs, they've had so many failures that they're really wary of stuff.
[01:07:28.380 --> 01:07:30.540]  So you have to kind of prove your business case.
[01:07:30.720 --> 01:07:34.520]  You can't just, I have a great idea, I'll go to a venture capitalist and get money for it.
[01:07:35.200 --> 01:07:37.660]  Really not working in this business environment right now.
[01:07:40.760 --> 01:07:44.360]  So predictability, that's basically what that's about.
[01:07:46.740 --> 01:07:49.160]  So you want to set up a kill zone.
[01:07:50.340 --> 01:07:57.240]  The need for stability is the main reason businesses freak out about tax code and employment law and environmental law changes.
[01:07:57.820 --> 01:08:03.840]  Businesses need bedrock anchor points to unchanging conditions in order to function.
[01:08:04.780 --> 01:08:09.640]  A bank sets up their plan for how to function for the next 20 years.
[01:08:10.360 --> 01:08:17.700]  And if no laws change and the economy doesn't collapse, they know how much money they're going to make.
[01:08:18.440 --> 01:08:21.500]  And really, you want to have plans like that.
[01:08:21.580 --> 01:08:26.160]  And you put in the variables, okay, if this happens, then we do this in this other direction.
[01:08:26.160 --> 01:08:32.180]  And we still keep that kill zone of the customer comes into the spot and we take their money and they continue on.
[01:08:32.180 --> 01:08:34.480]  And then they come back in their circle and we take it again.
[01:08:35.040 --> 01:08:40.400]  You want to set up systems like that so the money coming in is very predictable.
[01:08:41.100 --> 01:08:45.800]  And things that take money away are also very predictable and you know how to avoid them.
[01:08:46.700 --> 01:08:53.800]  So that's the biggest advice I can get is make everything you're doing as predictable as possible.
[01:08:53.800 --> 01:08:57.500]  Get as much information as you can before you take leaps.
[01:08:58.860 --> 01:09:00.840]  Know what is happening next.
[01:09:01.100 --> 01:09:08.960]  And really, a lot of help you can get from hiring employees with knowledge in other areas will help you with this.
[01:09:09.100 --> 01:09:15.820]  So if you're just an engineer and you don't have a lot of business experience, probably your first hire shouldn't be another engineer.
[01:09:15.820 --> 01:09:17.920]  It should be someone who has run a business.
[01:09:21.640 --> 01:09:23.360]  So teamwork is really big.
[01:09:25.320 --> 01:09:27.240]  Finding a business co-founder.
[01:09:27.800 --> 01:09:33.260]  You would go to like co-working spaces, startup events like Startup Weekend.
[01:09:33.780 --> 01:09:40.020]  You can go to business schools and ask professors for recent graduates who haven't found a job yet.
[01:09:40.020 --> 01:09:41.540]  Same thing at law schools.
[01:09:41.700 --> 01:09:45.880]  Lawyers are actually good at business because they know what doesn't work.
[01:09:46.660 --> 01:09:49.360]  Because that's basically what they're taught for, what, five years?
[01:09:50.520 --> 01:09:51.540]  Is it three or five?
[01:09:51.680 --> 01:09:52.140]  I can't remember.
[01:09:52.580 --> 01:09:53.560]  I'm not a lawyer.
[01:09:56.440 --> 01:09:58.640]  Mix it up with your team composition.
[01:09:58.860 --> 01:10:01.640]  Make sure you have people who will respectfully disagree with you.
[01:10:02.300 --> 01:10:05.800]  Don't worry about hiring people who are more experienced than you are.
[01:10:06.540 --> 01:10:10.360]  You just... you have to hold the reins and keep going.
[01:10:10.740 --> 01:10:13.740]  But do have people who know more than you do.
[01:10:14.620 --> 01:10:16.720]  Just don't let them take off and keep running.
[01:10:16.940 --> 01:10:20.340]  Have them explain why something needs to happen in a certain way.
[01:10:20.460 --> 01:10:22.380]  And until you understand it, don't go with it.
[01:10:22.840 --> 01:10:25.240]  Just, you know, have them help you understand.
[01:10:25.920 --> 01:10:34.280]  But if you're looking for employees that don't cost much money, look at senior citizens who can't find a job anymore.
[01:10:35.200 --> 01:10:36.980]  Look at military veterans.
[01:10:37.260 --> 01:10:41.780]  These guys work in a massive bureaucracy every day.
[01:10:42.040 --> 01:10:48.220]  And they're really, really good at things like logistical planning and moving product around the world.
[01:10:48.800 --> 01:10:50.300]  Transportation, all that stuff.
[01:10:50.540 --> 01:10:52.720]  Veterans are great for that kind of thing.
[01:10:53.840 --> 01:10:58.680]  And if you can help them, the government actually gives you money to hire them.
[01:10:59.580 --> 01:11:04.840]  So, there's a lot of grants that don't have so many strings attached if you hire veterans as your employees.
[01:11:06.800 --> 01:11:12.240]  Don't plan to pay people in equity alone unless they're independently wealthy.
[01:11:12.660 --> 01:11:16.300]  Most startups fail and you don't want that on your conscience.
[01:11:17.280 --> 01:11:28.200]  If you have somebody work for you for a year and they were going to get a part of the company and the company fails, it feels really bad to have to shut the company down and they got nothing out of it.
[01:11:28.480 --> 01:11:39.340]  I mean, it feels really bad for you that you lost, but having, you know, six other people who didn't ever get paid, it's too much of a weight and you'll never want to start a business again.
[01:11:39.560 --> 01:11:41.920]  You really want to start paying people as soon as you can.
[01:11:45.500 --> 01:11:47.460]  Vesting schedule... we already talked about that.
[01:11:49.720 --> 01:11:52.820]  So, a term sheet is something that you do with investors.
[01:11:53.000 --> 01:11:55.320]  It outlines how the money rolls out.
[01:11:55.480 --> 01:11:59.720]  You definitely... when an investor gives you a term sheet, you want a lawyer to read it.
[01:12:00.420 --> 01:12:05.400]  You really want lawyers involved as much as possible.
[01:12:05.400 --> 01:12:19.000]  And there are a lot of people who advertise that they are startup lawyers and they'll give you a package for your startup business where you get a lower rate and you don't have to pay it immediately.
[01:12:19.640 --> 01:12:21.880]  And if the business fails, they lose.
[01:12:21.940 --> 01:12:23.380]  So, they want to help you.
[01:12:24.400 --> 01:12:26.320]  So, you can have a lawyer.
[01:12:26.520 --> 01:12:35.680]  It doesn't cost that much money for a startup company to have a lawyer look at all the important stuff because they want startups that will then become big clients.
[01:12:40.210 --> 01:12:41.350]  So, stakeholders.
[01:12:45.410 --> 01:12:46.030]  Alright.
[01:12:46.190 --> 01:12:47.550]  So, that's a slide from Buffy.
[01:12:49.490 --> 01:12:51.410]  But let's talk about Star Trek.
[01:12:53.590 --> 01:12:54.830]  So, stakeholders...
[01:12:55.810 --> 01:13:00.430]  They're the people who have a stake in the success of the company.
[01:13:00.710 --> 01:13:03.170]  So, anybody who has a percentage of the company.
[01:13:03.170 --> 01:13:06.170]  But you can also play it out in different ways.
[01:13:07.650 --> 01:13:11.030]  So, in Star Trek, the Federation is the main stakeholders.
[01:13:12.450 --> 01:13:20.390]  And Picard's order of protection is protect the Federation, protect the ship, protect the crew, and then protect alien bacteria.
[01:13:21.950 --> 01:13:26.390]  So, that would be the stakeholders, the legal entity, the employees, and the customers.
[01:13:26.710 --> 01:13:28.530]  Some people reverse the last two.
[01:13:28.530 --> 01:13:31.450]  And that's a prime directive question I'm not going to get into.
[01:13:33.830 --> 01:13:37.390]  But you are legally obligated to protect your investors.
[01:13:38.150 --> 01:13:41.630]  And they expect you to worry...
[01:13:41.630 --> 01:13:44.030]  Then they expect you to worry about everybody else.
[01:13:44.350 --> 01:13:55.950]  So, especially if you have a public company that's had an IPO, the government is very serious about you don't do things that will mess with your investors.
[01:13:56.230 --> 01:13:58.830]  And they can sue you very easily if you make bad decisions.
[01:13:59.110 --> 01:14:01.970]  Which is why CEOs get paid a lot.
[01:14:02.190 --> 01:14:04.870]  Because they have to navigate all that stuff.
[01:14:07.530 --> 01:14:10.950]  A pretty big rule of business is to pay yourself first.
[01:14:13.710 --> 01:14:14.230]  If...
[01:14:14.230 --> 01:14:21.310]  In your payroll, when you have money coming in and you have to decide what things to pay first, you pay yourself first.
[01:14:21.310 --> 01:14:24.870]  Even if it's a very small salary, you pay yourself first.
[01:14:25.050 --> 01:14:28.990]  And you pay yourself enough that you're putting money away for savings.
[01:14:29.410 --> 01:14:42.210]  Because if things in the business fail, where there's no income, and you have to let employees go, the thing that will keep the company going to begin growing again, is that you're able to hold on.
[01:14:42.390 --> 01:14:51.030]  So, you don't want to not pay yourself so that if things go very badly for the company, you can't then push it back up on your own.
[01:14:56.250 --> 01:14:57.550]  Okay, back to Star Trek.
[01:15:00.710 --> 01:15:01.230]  So...
[01:15:01.230 --> 01:15:02.670]  Is that in focus?
[01:15:04.950 --> 01:15:05.470]  Yes?
[01:15:05.670 --> 01:15:07.010]  Okay, it looks weird over here.
[01:15:07.010 --> 01:15:07.670]  Okay.
[01:15:08.070 --> 01:15:13.970]  So, I have the USS sole proprietor here, LLC 501C3BCSDBA.
[01:15:15.270 --> 01:15:23.630]  So, a sole proprietor is just you, and you can go to the bank and say, I want an account that's for my business, and it will be under your name.
[01:15:24.030 --> 01:15:35.050]  You can also file to the state and say, I want to do a DBA, which is doing business as, and then you continue to act as yourself.
[01:15:35.790 --> 01:15:43.990]  But then people can write you checks to my company name, and then you deposit that in an account that has that company name.
[01:15:44.570 --> 01:15:49.750]  And all of these letters and things are for accounting purposes and tax purposes.
[01:15:51.250 --> 01:15:54.190]  So, a lot of people, when they start out, they will form an LLC.
[01:15:54.550 --> 01:15:57.990]  If you ever want to take investment, do not form an LLC.
[01:15:58.310 --> 01:16:00.130]  You will have to convert it to a C-Corp.
[01:16:00.290 --> 01:16:00.750]  That's a process.
[01:16:02.050 --> 01:16:03.170]  Just form a C-Corp.
[01:16:03.930 --> 01:16:14.130]  It's a little bit more involved, and there's different tax rules, but there are major tax consequences for your investors if they try to invest in an LLC.
[01:16:14.510 --> 01:16:18.430]  And most VCs will not touch an LLC unless it's been converted to a C-Corp.
[01:16:18.430 --> 01:16:24.310]  So, if you plan on taking money from other people, then C-Corp.
[01:16:24.930 --> 01:16:26.770]  S-Corps are related to the C-Corp.
[01:16:26.910 --> 01:16:33.670]  I don't know what the difference is, but I know that most people who do start-ups in tech are going for the C-Corp, not the S-Corp.
[01:16:33.670 --> 01:16:36.950]  I think there's more reporting to the IRS or something for the S.
[01:16:38.310 --> 01:16:43.430]  And then the B-Corp is a new thing, which changes the stakeholder model.
[01:16:44.430 --> 01:16:48.930]  You are legally obligated to do good if you have a B-Corp.
[01:16:49.350 --> 01:16:54.010]  You set up in your charter for the company that goes to the state.
[01:16:54.710 --> 01:17:02.430]  This is our purpose, and the federal government gives you giant tax incentives to continue doing that good purpose.
[01:17:02.430 --> 01:17:15.650]  So, if you're doing something that's like free software, you might want to look at the B-Corp because that changes that stakeholder model where you have to serve the shareholders.
[01:17:15.990 --> 01:17:32.410]  So, in doing good with a B-Corp, fulfilling your corporate purpose, you are serving the shareholders because they would lose out to the IRS by having to pay lots of back taxes if you fail to fulfill your purpose of doing that.
[01:17:32.410 --> 01:17:36.730]  So, B-Corp is a really cool new thing if you want to look into that.
[01:17:39.090 --> 01:17:40.970]  A lot of companies form in Delaware.
[01:17:41.270 --> 01:17:43.190]  Their state taxes are really simple.
[01:17:44.250 --> 01:17:48.950]  There's a company called LegalZoom that does corporate forming online.
[01:17:49.670 --> 01:17:51.110]  Be careful with them.
[01:17:51.430 --> 01:17:53.170]  You might just want to go to a lawyer.
[01:17:53.470 --> 01:17:55.110]  The lawyers are not much more expensive.
[01:17:55.110 --> 01:18:02.590]  And LegalZoom has had a lot of problems in recent years where they don't actually have lawyers looking at everything.
[01:18:04.450 --> 01:18:07.590]  Sometimes, some of their documents were possibly written by accountants.
[01:18:08.730 --> 01:18:11.150]  I mean, like charters for companies.
[01:18:11.350 --> 01:18:13.750]  And so, they've gotten sued quite a bit.
[01:18:13.830 --> 01:18:19.870]  And a lot of lawyers are advising people to avoid it, even though, you know, lawyers would because it's cheaper than them.
[01:18:19.870 --> 01:18:23.370]  But I would say be careful about LegalZoom.
[01:18:28.090 --> 01:18:30.550]  Locking down IP is pretty important for tech stuff.
[01:18:31.170 --> 01:18:33.330]  That's another thing you should talk to the lawyer about.
[01:18:33.870 --> 01:18:44.130]  Even before you write something, even before you create intellectual property, you want to talk to your lawyer about what's the best way of going about protecting what I'm about to create.
[01:18:47.800 --> 01:18:48.320]  Okay.
[01:18:48.860 --> 01:18:50.640]  So, SWOT is a great tool.
[01:18:50.880 --> 01:18:55.480]  If you watch Silicon Valley on HBO, they did this, and it was very funny.
[01:18:57.060 --> 01:19:00.180]  So, SWOT is strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats.
[01:19:00.480 --> 01:19:03.560]  And what you do is you make a little grid.
[01:19:04.640 --> 01:19:07.060]  This is the SWOT for attending hacker conferences.
[01:19:08.740 --> 01:19:10.780]  A strength would be I'll learn something.
[01:19:11.100 --> 01:19:13.760]  A weakness is overcrowded talks.
[01:19:14.540 --> 01:19:17.260]  Opportunities, you can restock on T-shirts, threats.
[01:19:18.020 --> 01:19:20.020]  My burner may get pwned.
[01:19:20.460 --> 01:19:22.300]  And there's a couple of other examples there.
[01:19:23.080 --> 01:19:29.760]  So, this is a good way of approaching when you need to do something in business, when you need to think about something that's coming up.
[01:19:30.300 --> 01:19:35.780]  If you just do this little thing and put SWOT, and then just list shit.
[01:19:36.840 --> 01:19:39.240]  It's a really effective tool for...
[01:19:39.240 --> 01:19:42.120]  Especially if you have a group of people who have to think about something.
[01:19:42.460 --> 01:19:46.240]  It's a good way of brainstorming how to move forward and how to approach a problem.
[01:19:51.340 --> 01:19:53.960]  Here's some resources if you want to take a picture.
[01:19:56.140 --> 01:19:58.000]  There's a film, Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross.
[01:19:58.280 --> 01:20:00.760]  I don't think many people in this room are salespeople.
[01:20:00.760 --> 01:20:03.400]  I don't think many humans are salespeople.
[01:20:04.560 --> 01:20:06.840]  But there's really good information about sales.
[01:20:07.100 --> 01:20:12.000]  And as you, as the business owner, you are the first salesperson.
[01:20:12.220 --> 01:20:16.400]  So, that's a really good film to watch to understand how they think.
[01:20:17.880 --> 01:20:19.940]  And Alec Baldwin is really good in it.
[01:20:20.760 --> 01:20:23.820]  There's also a podcast from Next View Ventures in Boston.
[01:20:23.820 --> 01:20:27.680]  They also are doing part of their shows from here in New York called Traction.
[01:20:27.880 --> 01:20:29.800]  I listen to it every time there's a new episode.
[01:20:29.800 --> 01:20:34.140]  It's stories from startup founders who have become successful.
[01:20:34.660 --> 01:20:36.680]  And how they got traction.
[01:20:36.880 --> 01:20:38.140]  How they got their business rolling.
[01:20:38.500 --> 01:20:39.720]  It's really informative.
[01:20:40.580 --> 01:20:45.980]  The websites of accelerators and incubators and people who...
[01:20:45.980 --> 01:20:50.120]  The seed investors and VCs, they all have blogs and stuff.
[01:20:50.580 --> 01:20:53.620]  Where they put a lot of really good information out there.
[01:20:54.820 --> 01:21:00.780]  Also, if you work in a co-working space, you can get so much information from the other people in the other offices.
[01:21:01.080 --> 01:21:06.200]  Like if you go to WeWork, even if you just take a desk or get their kind of revolving thing.
[01:21:06.740 --> 01:21:10.000]  They also have like an internal Craigslist for WeWork.
[01:21:10.900 --> 01:21:12.340]  It's not branded Craigslist.
[01:21:12.540 --> 01:21:13.320]  It's their own thing.
[01:21:13.840 --> 01:21:17.260]  But people can put up stuff about, okay, we're doing this event for our business.
[01:21:17.420 --> 01:21:20.180]  And you'll meet all these people that do this similar thing around us.
[01:21:20.320 --> 01:21:23.040]  And it's really good for connecting with people.
[01:21:23.040 --> 01:21:25.560]  If you're in New York City, New York Tech Meetup.
[01:21:25.900 --> 01:21:27.120]  It's really big.
[01:21:27.420 --> 01:21:28.880]  It's kind of overgrown.
[01:21:29.220 --> 01:21:31.720]  But you can go to these pitch events.
[01:21:32.020 --> 01:21:35.200]  Like New York Tech Meetup has people pitching the business they're doing.
[01:21:36.420 --> 01:21:39.280]  And also Entrepreneurs Roundtable does the same thing.
[01:21:40.140 --> 01:21:43.040]  Where you go and you listen to people pitching their businesses.
[01:21:43.360 --> 01:21:45.600]  And then there's a VC who tears them apart.
[01:21:46.460 --> 01:21:49.060]  He's like, I would not invest in this because of this and this.
[01:21:49.220 --> 01:21:51.240]  Or can you tell me more about this?
[01:21:51.380 --> 01:21:52.120]  And they go through it.
[01:21:52.120 --> 01:21:54.260]  Or, okay, if you approach it this way, it might work better.
[01:21:54.720 --> 01:21:58.400]  Listening to a lot of that stuff will really help you get on track.
[01:21:58.420 --> 01:22:00.960]  If you're thinking about taking investors to do something.
[01:22:02.300 --> 01:22:06.860]  Alley Watch is a newsletter that's here in New York City from the Silicon Alley kind of area.
[01:22:07.980 --> 01:22:10.620]  Gary's Guide, I think, is also in San Francisco.
[01:22:10.800 --> 01:22:12.420]  There's one New York and one San Francisco.
[01:22:14.320 --> 01:22:15.320]  That's a great resource.
[01:22:15.600 --> 01:22:17.420]  Every week the guide puts out this...
[01:22:17.420 --> 01:22:19.900]  I don't know, if you printed it, it would be like a 20-page long email.
[01:22:19.900 --> 01:22:22.060]  But it's all of these events that are going on.
[01:22:23.220 --> 01:22:26.180]  These things give you a lot of insight into where the market is.
[01:22:26.300 --> 01:22:27.200]  Where money is.
[01:22:27.580 --> 01:22:29.140]  And where investors are putting money.
[01:22:29.240 --> 01:22:30.860]  And where investors are not putting money.
[01:22:32.120 --> 01:22:34.880]  So that's really useful, I think.
[01:22:35.160 --> 01:22:36.420]  Just kind of moving forward.
[01:22:36.780 --> 01:22:41.920]  If you aren't started yet, really look into this stuff and see where you can get help on information.
[01:22:44.480 --> 01:22:46.760]  That's basically the end of my brain dump.
[01:22:46.920 --> 01:22:48.520]  And we'll go back to the panel.
[01:23:04.900 --> 01:23:10.200]  So I wanted to ask first about predictability.
[01:23:11.380 --> 01:23:16.740]  And how you approach, like, do you know who your customers are?
[01:23:16.980 --> 01:23:19.360]  Do you know who they're going to be five years from now?
[01:23:20.560 --> 01:23:23.580]  How do you know how much a single product is going to sell?
[01:23:23.900 --> 01:23:29.800]  Or how do you predict the market when you're manufacturing things in China and that sort of thing?
[01:23:30.220 --> 01:23:35.260]  How do you manage all the things that you can't really foresee or you're trying to foresee?
[01:23:35.780 --> 01:23:36.180]  Mitch?
[01:23:37.700 --> 01:23:38.500]  You can't.
[01:23:40.000 --> 01:23:41.240]  But you can have guesses.
[01:23:41.560 --> 01:23:43.860]  And if you've been in business for a while, you see patterns.
[01:23:44.300 --> 01:23:49.140]  So with TV-B-Gone, I certainly, like I said, I didn't know what the hell I was doing.
[01:23:49.820 --> 01:23:52.520]  I just put out this thing and it seemed like an opportunity.
[01:23:52.520 --> 01:23:55.760]  I thought maybe I could sell $5,000 in a few years and I'd break even.
[01:23:55.760 --> 01:23:59.040]  And if I had a little more, I'd supplement my income.
[01:23:59.260 --> 01:24:01.520]  My fantasy, I would actually make a living off of it.
[01:24:02.000 --> 01:24:05.140]  And like I said, I sold $20,000 in the first three weeks.
[01:24:05.140 --> 01:24:10.460]  And it was stressful because, you know, when things are unpredictable, it's stressful.
[01:24:10.740 --> 01:24:16.580]  I had sold $20,000, but they weren't all delivered yet and I had to pay the money to them.
[01:24:16.580 --> 01:24:22.120]  And then the credit card company calls me and says, we have a problem.
[01:24:22.120 --> 01:24:26.160]  You said you would make $100,000 in a year and you made it in three weeks.
[01:24:27.160 --> 01:24:28.640]  And I said, is that a problem?
[01:24:29.620 --> 01:24:36.080]  And they said, yeah, yeah, yeah, because we don't think you'll be able to fulfill since you forecasted so poorly.
[01:24:36.780 --> 01:24:44.040]  And so they withheld all of my money, which I needed to pay the manufacturer to get the product so I could make the fulfillment.
[01:24:44.560 --> 01:24:47.120]  So they were doing a self-fulfilling prophecy.
[01:24:47.540 --> 01:24:51.480]  And so, fortunately, I had friends and family who could give me money.
[01:24:51.600 --> 01:24:53.140]  Not everyone would be so fortunate.
[01:24:53.940 --> 01:24:56.620]  And I paid them all back, of course, really quickly.
[01:24:57.640 --> 01:25:01.040]  So, yeah, predictability is a really wonderful thing if you can do it.
[01:25:01.080 --> 01:25:04.760]  But, you know, if you're doing these hackery kind of things, you can't predict.
[01:25:04.760 --> 01:25:08.120]  Well, how do you know how many of something to make in the first place?
[01:25:08.460 --> 01:25:11.000]  Well, for TV-B-Gone, that was in 2003.
[01:25:11.320 --> 01:25:15.440]  And when I was setting all this stuff up in 2004.
[01:25:15.780 --> 01:25:17.820]  And back then, things were really different than they are now.
[01:25:18.000 --> 01:25:20.640]  Things have changed a lot, especially in manufacturing.
[01:25:21.420 --> 01:25:26.420]  Back then, I wanted to do it in the U.S., but it was low quality and high price.
[01:25:26.540 --> 01:25:27.180]  Bad combination.
[01:25:27.440 --> 01:25:29.920]  And I looked all over the world and China was the place to do it.
[01:25:30.120 --> 01:25:33.360]  And the minimum quantity for any manufacturing back then was $10,000.
[01:25:33.920 --> 01:25:39.640]  So I figured I'd do $10,000, but suddenly I got a little bit of money from an old company that I thought would make nothing.
[01:25:39.680 --> 01:25:42.600]  And I got $60,000 and that allowed me to make $20,000.
[01:25:42.800 --> 01:25:43.800]  So I just did it.
[01:25:45.080 --> 01:25:48.540]  And, you know, after doing math, of course, and trying to see how it would break even.
[01:25:48.740 --> 01:25:50.800]  But, so I made $10,000.
[01:25:50.980 --> 01:25:53.220]  Nowadays, you can actually have some kind of idea.
[01:25:53.620 --> 01:26:02.340]  And with a lot of services around the world, including China, including in the U.S., including in Germany and other places, you can make $500 and just see how it goes.
[01:26:02.340 --> 01:26:04.220]  You don't have to put up all this money.
[01:26:04.320 --> 01:26:06.900]  You can have Kickstarter and other kind of crowdsource.
[01:26:07.240 --> 01:26:09.460]  So you don't even have to take all that much of a risk.
[01:26:09.480 --> 01:26:11.820]  You can put it out there and see if people support it.
[01:26:12.320 --> 01:26:13.300]  And if they do, great.
[01:26:13.720 --> 01:26:20.340]  You know, I was lucky enough to have that $60,000 that came out of nowhere so I could basically kickstart my project.
[01:26:21.040 --> 01:26:25.500]  And like you were saying, it's best to self-fund if at all possible.
[01:26:26.000 --> 01:26:31.920]  I never had to deal with investors, which I know I wouldn't like, which would violate my one rule of doing business.
[01:26:34.420 --> 01:26:37.240]  But after a few years, you see a pattern.
[01:26:37.720 --> 01:26:45.100]  And when things deviate from that pattern, you have to respond and respond quickly, as Limor was saying earlier.
[01:26:45.320 --> 01:26:46.940]  You don't want to wait until the end of the month.
[01:26:46.940 --> 01:26:50.100]  At the beginning, I sold all these units.
[01:26:50.120 --> 01:26:51.460]  And I was paying all these bills.
[01:26:51.500 --> 01:26:55.560]  And I didn't have time because it all took me totally by surprise because I wasn't predicting.
[01:26:55.560 --> 01:26:56.300]  I couldn't predict.
[01:26:56.540 --> 01:26:59.440]  And I did the accounting finally after three months.
[01:26:59.440 --> 01:27:02.340]  And after paying everyone off, I got what was left, which was zero.
[01:27:03.620 --> 01:27:05.620]  And I was lucky it wasn't negative.
[01:27:06.400 --> 01:27:10.500]  I was just really, really lucky I would have gone out of business back then.
[01:27:10.500 --> 01:27:12.760]  So this is really, really difficult.
[01:27:12.760 --> 01:27:14.640]  So it's important to think about these things.
[01:27:14.640 --> 01:27:16.460]  But, you know, you can't really know.
[01:27:16.840 --> 01:27:18.000]  We can't predict the future.
[01:27:18.420 --> 01:27:22.240]  We can make our best guesses and play it on the fly as we go along.
[01:27:22.380 --> 01:27:25.000]  And some people are way better intuitively at that.
[01:27:25.020 --> 01:27:30.260]  And some people are actually pretty good at seeing patterns form as they're forming.
[01:27:30.560 --> 01:27:32.820]  And that's a great skill to have.
[01:27:33.420 --> 01:27:37.940]  And I sort of have it sometimes, but I'm not all that great at it.
[01:27:38.800 --> 01:27:49.900]  Speaking of Kickstarter and Indiegogo, if you're thinking of crowdfunding, you should probably plan two to three months before you launch the campaign to get all your ducks in a row.
[01:27:50.160 --> 01:27:54.360]  And also, you want a closer.
[01:27:54.640 --> 01:28:05.420]  So really, you want to have a deal with somebody that if we get to half our goal, this person will kick in and finish it if it doesn't look like other people are going to finish it.
[01:28:05.420 --> 01:28:11.480]  So that's a good way to raise funds that you can go to an investor who doesn't want to invest everything.
[01:28:11.600 --> 01:28:20.340]  But if you can prove that half the number of people that are required for a Kickstarter campaign will invest in your product, people who want that product.
[01:28:21.160 --> 01:28:30.320]  If you get to that half point, then the investor, you make a contract in advance or just a handshake, they will pay for the rest of it to own part of the business.
[01:28:31.100 --> 01:28:36.300]  So that's another thing of proving your numbers before you get money from somebody.
[01:28:40.400 --> 01:28:45.360]  I guess what I do with the biobus is more of a service.
[01:28:45.740 --> 01:28:50.040]  So I think there's a little bit of a different approach.
[01:28:50.160 --> 01:29:00.280]  I mean, when I started in 2008, President Obama started bombarding the airwaves with, we don't have enough scientists, we don't have enough engineers, we don't have enough tech trained people.
[01:29:00.280 --> 01:29:10.160]  So it was really lucky for me that that message was hitting the airwaves the year that I started a science, tech, engineering education program.
[01:29:11.380 --> 01:29:19.860]  And so I feel like that did raise people's antennae to the need for that kind of service.
[01:29:22.800 --> 01:29:24.100]  So here's a downer.
[01:29:24.240 --> 01:29:27.060]  I mean, we all know that poverty is not going to go away.
[01:29:27.060 --> 01:29:35.340]  So, you know, from the point of view of our nonprofit mission to reach impoverished areas, like there's always going to be an audience there.
[01:29:37.060 --> 01:29:52.500]  And I think that, you know, for me on the nonprofit side, the other aspect of it is getting to know, not the VC community, right, but the foundation community, right?
[01:29:52.500 --> 01:30:04.280]  Like understanding where they're at and starting to make the connections there and reach out into your network and find out like what they're demanding, right?
[01:30:04.440 --> 01:30:12.460]  And then figure out if, you know, for any given foundation, can you align your mission with what they might be interested in funding?
[01:30:12.460 --> 01:30:28.000]  And just to get quickly back to a previous point about ethics, there's a really interesting, I think, ethical dilemma with nonprofits where it's really easy to actually have mission creep, where there's a foundation who wants to give you a lot of money,
[01:30:28.020 --> 01:30:32.380]  but it's not really for what you think is going to be the most effective way to address a problem.
[01:30:32.960 --> 01:30:38.520]  And that's an ethical dilemma that we've had, you know, to some extent.
[01:30:38.680 --> 01:30:43.460]  But I imagine that the same could actually be true with just, you know, any investor, right?
[01:30:43.580 --> 01:30:46.540]  That they might want you to do something that you don't really want to do.
[01:30:47.120 --> 01:30:48.120]  Did I answer the question?
[01:30:48.680 --> 01:30:49.300]  Yeah, I think so.
[01:30:50.360 --> 01:30:55.060]  Can you talk a little bit also about the 501c3 thing and nonprofit?
[01:30:55.260 --> 01:30:59.300]  I mean, you can form a nonprofit with a state and then you still have to go to the federal level.
[01:30:59.300 --> 01:31:02.880]  And the federal has been delayed a lot lately because there were political issues.
[01:31:03.260 --> 01:31:07.540]  So it's kind of hard to get a 501c3 charity approved right now.
[01:31:07.740 --> 01:31:15.020]  So if that's your business plan, you might want to look carefully at whether those are being approved in a timely fashion right now.
[01:31:15.140 --> 01:31:19.480]  I think it's like a nine or 12 month wait to get one approved right now if you don't know a senator.
[01:31:21.320 --> 01:31:22.680]  But it's still a business.
[01:31:23.240 --> 01:31:24.380]  Nonprofit is still a business.
[01:31:24.540 --> 01:31:25.560]  How do you approach that?
[01:31:25.640 --> 01:31:26.060]  That's right.
[01:31:26.260 --> 01:31:28.540]  Of serving your mission and being a business.
[01:31:28.700 --> 01:31:37.360]  So in New York City, a nonprofit is just a C-Corp which you form with nonprofit bylaws and you can find those bylaws, you know, templates online.
[01:31:38.020 --> 01:31:39.220]  It's actually quite easy.
[01:31:40.800 --> 01:31:57.880]  New York State is actually notorious for being very slow at approving nonprofits, even just at the state level, especially if you want to be an educational nonprofit and especially if you're related to technology because then there are all these offices in New York State that your application has to go through.
[01:31:57.880 --> 01:32:02.560]  And that's actually one thing I wish I had had been able to afford a lawyer at the very beginning.
[01:32:02.860 --> 01:32:03.920]  I couldn't have.
[01:32:04.160 --> 01:32:05.440]  So the point is move.
[01:32:05.620 --> 01:32:22.060]  But, you know, it was held up because of the use of the word, you know, like I wasn't allowed to use the word technical training in my bylaws because that offended somebody at the New York State agency for lab technician and massage therapists.
[01:32:23.000 --> 01:32:24.820]  And it was like, oh, my God, really?
[01:32:25.820 --> 01:32:28.600]  And then when we finally got to the federal level.
[01:32:28.720 --> 01:32:33.360]  So there's a whole another process for filing to be a federal 501 C3.
[01:32:33.600 --> 01:32:36.800]  That's a part of the IRS federal tax code 501 C3.
[01:32:36.800 --> 01:32:41.120]  And that took me it took about nine months.
[01:32:41.300 --> 01:32:42.220]  Maybe it was even 12 months.
[01:32:42.380 --> 01:32:44.220]  I put it out of my mind.
[01:32:44.340 --> 01:32:57.460]  But but again, there were a number of holdups for for us because, you know, we had to have special language like anything that we publish is going to be made available to the general public.
[01:32:58.320 --> 01:32:59.440]  We just didn't have that.
[01:32:59.580 --> 01:33:01.240]  So we had to come back and make revision.
[01:33:01.500 --> 01:33:07.880]  So, again, if you can get legal help, it can speed up that process significantly, I think.
[01:33:09.400 --> 01:33:14.080]  Limor, can you talk a little bit about branding and marketing and how you find new customers?
[01:33:14.320 --> 01:33:15.560]  Can we also answer the question?
[01:33:15.740 --> 01:33:16.120]  Yeah, absolutely.
[01:33:16.160 --> 01:33:18.740]  About how we manufacture stuff?
[01:33:18.880 --> 01:33:19.040]  Yeah.
[01:33:19.340 --> 01:33:20.540]  And then we'll do branding, too.
[01:33:20.760 --> 01:33:21.840]  Yeah, we're running out of time.
[01:33:21.980 --> 01:33:23.060]  Yeah, we can talk super fast.
[01:33:23.200 --> 01:33:23.560]  Yeah, please.
[01:33:25.400 --> 01:33:29.960]  So the previous question was, oh, my goodness, it was about, was it risk management?
[01:33:29.960 --> 01:33:31.300]  How do you know how many to make?
[01:33:31.420 --> 01:33:33.120]  Okay, so here's what, here's the thing.
[01:33:33.240 --> 01:33:38.100]  So first off, you can always start with a small run because you're, the number is actually completely meaningless.
[01:33:38.320 --> 01:33:42.440]  It's like making 10,000 TV-B-Gones is gonna be completely different than making 10,000 laser cutters.
[01:33:42.540 --> 01:33:45.920]  Like it's not, they're completely, it's an intractable thing to think about a number.
[01:33:46.080 --> 01:33:50.120]  So instead, what you want to think of is your fiscal risk, the amount of money that you are willing to put on the line.
[01:33:50.120 --> 01:33:52.640]  And you do know that number because you know how much money you have.
[01:33:52.640 --> 01:33:54.460]  And so you'll just work back from that.
[01:33:54.560 --> 01:34:02.620]  And you'll negotiate when you're manufacturing partner, if you're making goods, about, you know, how much you can make with the 10,000, 100,000, $50,000 that you have.
[01:34:02.740 --> 01:34:04.000]  So that's actually a lot easier.
[01:34:04.180 --> 01:34:05.320]  It seems like, how do you know?
[01:34:05.400 --> 01:34:08.380]  But when you're actually in a situation, you know because you have no other choices.
[01:34:08.520 --> 01:34:10.780]  The numbers will pop out of reality.
[01:34:10.940 --> 01:34:13.340]  So the second question is, how do you deal with predictability?
[01:34:13.340 --> 01:34:16.100]  The answer is there's absolutely no way to deal with predictability.
[01:34:16.240 --> 01:34:20.120]  And so you have to be flexible because everyone has a plan until they're punched in the face.
[01:34:20.560 --> 01:34:27.680]  And so when, if you, as long as, you know, like people ask me like, okay, well, what's like the next hot new microcontroller platform?
[01:34:27.860 --> 01:34:29.980]  And it's like, well, I don't know, but I'll know when I see it.
[01:34:30.960 --> 01:34:39.560]  So as long as you're, as long as you're flexible and willing to change direction, like when, when the Raspberry Pi came out a couple of years ago, actually, when I first heard of it, I was like, well, I don't know.
[01:34:39.680 --> 01:34:40.580]  Is it like vaporware?
[01:34:40.620 --> 01:34:41.320]  Is it really going to happen?
[01:34:41.500 --> 01:34:43.580]  It was, it's like a, another OUYA console.
[01:34:43.720 --> 01:34:45.000]  Like I didn't, I hadn't seen it.
[01:34:45.080 --> 01:34:47.480]  So I had to kind of guess, like, I didn't think this was going to work out.
[01:34:47.700 --> 01:34:50.880]  I finally got my hands on one, like a day or two after launch.
[01:34:50.920 --> 01:34:52.600]  And I was like, oh, this is so f*cking cool.
[01:34:52.760 --> 01:34:54.340]  And I was like, this is definitely going to be it.
[01:34:54.460 --> 01:34:59.220]  I could tell just by like having that experience and changed plans immediately having.
[01:34:59.980 --> 01:35:00.900]  Had that flexibility.
[01:35:01.160 --> 01:35:02.720]  So if you have flexibility, you're willing to change.
[01:35:03.180 --> 01:35:06.080]  That's more important than trying to have a plan, which isn't going to work out long term anyways.
[01:35:07.460 --> 01:35:09.680]  Okay, so I'll do a little bit of this and then the branding and marketing.
[01:35:09.920 --> 01:35:09.980]  Yeah.
[01:35:10.560 --> 01:35:15.340]  So the only thing that we do with electronics is assume there's going to be change.
[01:35:15.480 --> 01:35:20.260]  And thank goodness, because our competitors and everyone who does this, they can't keep up with us.
[01:35:20.380 --> 01:35:21.260]  So we have 3000 products.
[01:35:21.420 --> 01:35:23.880]  Thank goodness there's a new different Wi-Fi IoT thing.
[01:35:24.180 --> 01:35:26.080]  Every other day we do low runs.
[01:35:26.080 --> 01:35:27.900]  L'Amour designs for manufacturing.
[01:35:28.160 --> 01:35:30.160]  The manufacturing equipment is 20 feet away.
[01:35:30.580 --> 01:35:32.740]  Two giant pick-and-places, oven, stenciling machine.
[01:35:32.980 --> 01:35:35.900]  So being able to do rapid manufacturing, low runs.
[01:35:36.000 --> 01:35:37.060]  We don't take back orders.
[01:35:37.500 --> 01:35:40.320]  I know a lot of people like Kickstarter and all this stuff that'll kill you.
[01:35:41.360 --> 01:35:42.460]  Just don't take back orders.
[01:35:42.600 --> 01:35:43.080]  Sell what you have.
[01:35:43.140 --> 01:35:43.700]  See how it goes.
[01:35:43.860 --> 01:35:44.400]  Sell 200.
[01:35:44.640 --> 01:35:45.520]  See how it goes.
[01:35:45.820 --> 01:35:46.480]  Do another run.
[01:35:46.560 --> 01:35:47.100]  See how it goes.
[01:35:47.280 --> 01:35:50.420]  Don't kill yourself and make 10,000 and get stuck.
[01:35:51.180 --> 01:35:56.800]  And that's been one of our strengths is we'll release a small run.
[01:35:57.060 --> 01:35:58.040]  We'll call it developer edition.
[01:35:58.320 --> 01:36:00.640]  And then we'll release another round.
[01:36:00.780 --> 01:36:05.300]  Now back to the other part of the question, or an additional question is, what do we do for branding and marketing?
[01:36:05.500 --> 01:36:07.380]  How do you reach customers you don't already have?
[01:36:07.540 --> 01:36:08.020]  All right.
[01:36:08.320 --> 01:36:09.460]  So make tons of videos.
[01:36:10.180 --> 01:36:10.660]  Yeah.
[01:36:10.920 --> 01:36:12.180]  Good information is advertising.
[01:36:12.260 --> 01:36:14.980]  I said it before, but we have 1,014 tutorials.
[01:36:14.980 --> 01:36:20.260]  If you Google for Arduino, you probably are reading an Adafruit tutorial.
[01:36:20.900 --> 01:36:26.880]  Think about every single company out there that's probably wasting their time with a giant PDF manual.
[01:36:27.200 --> 01:36:28.360]  No one reads these things.
[01:36:28.860 --> 01:36:31.920]  For customer support, do public forums.
[01:36:31.920 --> 01:36:36.720]  Who can possibly catalog a call that no one ever hears?
[01:36:37.200 --> 01:36:41.020]  So do your customer support in view, in public, that it's searchable.
[01:36:41.220 --> 01:36:44.140]  The more you put out there, the more customers are going to find you.
[01:36:44.700 --> 01:36:48.340]  We do a kid's show with puppets, with electronics.
[01:36:48.580 --> 01:36:49.500]  This is why we don't have investors.
[01:36:49.560 --> 01:36:54.340]  We both get fired because it'd be like, well, you're not delivering to the investors, so no puppet show for you.
[01:36:55.360 --> 01:36:58.860]  But it turns out the parents buy a ton of electronics.
[01:36:59.460 --> 01:37:02.280]  So, you know, there's lots of things that seem counterintuitive.
[01:37:03.400 --> 01:37:09.300]  I would say if you look at a recent unicorn, I don't even know if it's a shaven unicorn, because it's the Dollar Shave Club.
[01:37:09.500 --> 01:37:11.740]  They sold for a billion dollars in cash.
[01:37:11.800 --> 01:37:12.600]  And what did they do?
[01:37:12.600 --> 01:37:14.420]  They just did YouTube videos.
[01:37:15.200 --> 01:37:20.260]  So your branding and your marketing is what you put out there, put a lot out often and early.
[01:37:21.180 --> 01:37:22.480]  Content marketing is good.
[01:37:24.580 --> 01:37:28.680]  Mitch, you kind of do that like a Johnny Appleseed thing, going to all the hackerspaces.
[01:37:28.680 --> 01:37:31.920]  But how do you reach out from that point to market?
[01:37:32.940 --> 01:37:40.940]  I just find doing, you know, like when we started Noisebridge, we, and this relates, when we started Noisebridge, everyone was totally excited.
[01:37:41.180 --> 01:37:42.540]  It's like, oh, we're going to have access space.
[01:37:42.640 --> 01:37:46.900]  But we didn't have many models to draw from because there were only a handful in the world, mostly in Germany.
[01:37:46.900 --> 01:37:48.300]  And there were a few of us in the U.S. trying to start our own spaces.
[01:37:49.740 --> 01:37:50.940]  We're all helping each other.
[01:37:50.940 --> 01:37:52.900]  But we're kind of going in different directions.
[01:37:54.220 --> 01:38:01.960]  And energy is really high at first, but we're talking about, oh, well, we have to do, like we were talking about like 501c3 if we want to be non-profit or should we be for-profit?
[01:38:02.120 --> 01:38:03.300]  Should we be a spiritual organization?
[01:38:03.460 --> 01:38:05.260]  And all these things about organization.
[01:38:05.740 --> 01:38:08.360]  And, you know, we didn't come together to hack law.
[01:38:08.540 --> 01:38:09.960]  We came together to hack the planet.
[01:38:10.000 --> 01:38:15.080]  And so instead of 54 people showing up to a meeting, it was more like 15.
[01:38:15.080 --> 01:38:18.780]  And the energy was waning, so we started doing workshops.
[01:38:18.900 --> 01:38:21.300]  And that brought the energy way high again.
[01:38:21.500 --> 01:38:22.680]  And we're doing them frequently.
[01:38:23.020 --> 01:38:24.900]  And so I learned from that.
[01:38:24.900 --> 01:38:35.540]  And when I'm going out teaching soldering and developing with the more TV-B-Gone Kit, that was a fantastic way for teaching people soldering.
[01:38:35.700 --> 01:38:40.120]  But it was also, as I said before, unintentional, but it was really great PR.
[01:38:40.500 --> 01:38:43.600]  And all these people are... and it's open-source, free and open-source.
[01:38:43.600 --> 01:38:50.920]  So anyone can download the plans online and people make them and they tell everyone about it.
[01:38:51.080 --> 01:38:52.660]  We don't... I don't get a penny from that.
[01:38:52.820 --> 01:38:56.620]  But that's PR that I would never, ever be able to afford.
[01:38:56.920 --> 01:38:59.760]  And going around helping people... my teaching is always free.
[01:38:59.860 --> 01:39:01.020]  I never charge for it.
[01:39:01.300 --> 01:39:04.960]  I charge a bit more for materials, but that's all non-profit work for me.
[01:39:05.060 --> 01:39:07.720]  I don't... I just break even overall from all of that.
[01:39:07.900 --> 01:39:11.860]  And that helps get the word out, though, for the things that I do for-profit.
[01:39:12.580 --> 01:39:15.640]  And then I have this amazing network of people.
[01:39:15.880 --> 01:39:17.540]  I never do any advertising.
[01:39:17.720 --> 01:39:20.140]  The three times I tried, I lost a lot of money.
[01:39:20.780 --> 01:39:25.000]  One time on Wired.com and a couple others that were a little less expensive.
[01:39:25.140 --> 01:39:28.760]  It was like $2,000 for Wired.com and I didn't make a single sale.
[01:39:29.400 --> 01:39:30.140]  It's like... I don't know.
[01:39:30.300 --> 01:39:32.840]  Word of mouth is where it's at for my kind of a product.
[01:39:33.700 --> 01:39:36.200]  And I have an amazing network for word of mouth.
[01:39:36.520 --> 01:39:40.380]  And open-source, free and open-source is totally the way to go for all of that.
[01:39:40.580 --> 01:39:45.180]  And keeping the energy high by having workshops, getting people involved, showing people that it's fun.
[01:39:45.540 --> 01:39:48.960]  That they can have this confidence to do these things they didn't know how to do.
[01:39:49.120 --> 01:39:50.940]  And then they go out and they talk about this stuff.
[01:39:51.080 --> 01:39:52.740]  And like, how do you pay for that?
[01:39:52.920 --> 01:39:53.060]  You know?
[01:39:53.180 --> 01:39:55.860]  I'm just doing what I love and other people love it too.
[01:39:55.860 --> 01:39:57.880]  So, again, that broken record.
[01:39:58.720 --> 01:39:59.120]  Okay.
[01:40:00.400 --> 01:40:02.820]  So, we're pretty close to the end of this session.
[01:40:02.820 --> 01:40:05.160]  But there's no session after this one in this room.
[01:40:06.020 --> 01:40:10.600]  So, we'll stick around a little bit for Q&A if any of the panelists need to run over to the closing ceremonies.
[01:40:10.600 --> 01:40:17.100]  Or if any of you want to go over, we're going to go a little bit over and do Q&A if anybody feels like sticking around.
[01:40:17.580 --> 01:40:18.980]  Can I pitch my marketing?
[01:40:19.120 --> 01:40:19.300]  Yeah, absolutely.
[01:40:19.920 --> 01:40:22.500]  But I just wanted to give people time to get over here.
[01:40:22.500 --> 01:40:24.780]  I'll see everybody at Maker Faire in September.
[01:40:25.480 --> 01:40:28.120]  Actually, it's early October this year in New York City.
[01:40:28.340 --> 01:40:29.200]  The bus will be there.
[01:40:29.540 --> 01:40:34.740]  And that's our main way of doing marketing is actually getting people on the bus using the microscopes.
[01:40:34.880 --> 01:40:37.960]  We have about 10,000 people a year at different public events.
[01:40:38.280 --> 01:40:46.820]  And I said that we're only doing services, but we will actually be unveiling our first product at Maker Faire this coming year.
[01:40:46.820 --> 01:40:55.240]  It's a 3D printed, open-source, open microscope that we'll love you guys to come visit us at Maker Faire and play with.
[01:40:56.860 --> 01:40:57.360]  Okay.
[01:40:57.860 --> 01:40:59.200]  Anybody with questions?
[01:40:59.280 --> 01:41:00.260]  Come on up to the microphone.
[01:41:00.540 --> 01:41:00.760]  Oh, yeah.
[01:41:02.000 --> 01:41:02.660]  Well, one second.
[01:41:02.660 --> 01:41:07.100]  I asked all the panelists to ask themselves a question.
[01:41:07.340 --> 01:41:10.380]  So I would love to hear what you guys came up with each other before we take questions.
[01:41:10.640 --> 01:41:12.020]  If you could just do it quickly.
[01:41:13.480 --> 01:41:14.520]  And then we'll take questions.
[01:41:17.220 --> 01:41:19.660]  You want us to ask another panelist a question?
[01:41:20.780 --> 01:41:21.180]  Okay.
[01:41:22.020 --> 01:41:22.580]  All right.
[01:41:23.000 --> 01:41:25.580]  Well, Mitch, I introduce you to L'Amour.
[01:41:26.840 --> 01:41:27.860]  How's that working out for you?
[01:41:29.660 --> 01:41:31.100]  We've been friends for a long time.
[01:41:31.740 --> 01:41:32.200]  That was it.
[01:41:33.680 --> 01:41:35.180]  Oh, I actually didn't prepare.
[01:41:35.260 --> 01:41:37.020]  I'm going to skip and I'll come back.
[01:41:37.520 --> 01:41:38.380]  I didn't know about this.
[01:41:42.060 --> 01:41:46.240]  Phillip, what's the worst legal trouble you've ever been in in business?
[01:41:46.800 --> 01:41:47.100]  Yeah.
[01:41:47.240 --> 01:41:50.220]  Last year, we successfully fought a government subpoena.
[01:41:50.220 --> 01:41:51.800]  They wanted all of our customer records.
[01:41:57.510 --> 01:41:59.530]  And this is the first time I'm even talking about it.
[01:42:00.030 --> 01:42:02.050]  I think it's kind of like, it's been a while now.
[01:42:02.230 --> 01:42:03.050]  So it was last year.
[01:42:03.450 --> 01:42:03.790]  Yeah.
[01:42:03.970 --> 01:42:04.650]  It was terrible.
[01:42:05.210 --> 01:42:07.890]  And like, by the way, like everyone thinks they're going to be like Cory Doctorow.
[01:42:07.890 --> 01:42:08.930]  Like, come back with a warrant.
[01:42:08.970 --> 01:42:11.730]  I'm like, you know, even, no, you're actually scared and crying.
[01:42:11.790 --> 01:42:14.890]  Like, no, like, cause you're, well, this agent was really mean.
[01:42:17.210 --> 01:42:17.570]  Yeah.
[01:42:22.830 --> 01:42:24.650]  Administrative subpoenas are just a giant thing.
[01:42:24.830 --> 01:42:25.570]  That's a big net.
[01:42:25.970 --> 01:42:28.790]  It happened after 9-11 and people can do administrative subpoenas.
[01:42:28.990 --> 01:42:31.510]  They're, they're, if they're looking for anything, they can ask for everything.
[01:42:32.850 --> 01:42:32.950]  Yeah.
[01:42:33.530 --> 01:42:33.830]  Okay.
[01:42:33.990 --> 01:42:34.630]  I remember my question.
[01:42:34.730 --> 01:42:36.730]  Cause actually, I was like, oh, I actually have a question I wanted to ask Mitch.
[01:42:36.890 --> 01:42:44.370]  Cause I, I remember we were talking about manufacturing and you do some of your manufacturing in China, but you were actually saying recently that it's gotten more expensive.
[01:42:44.370 --> 01:42:47.350]  Do you feel, do you think you'll ever do manufacturing in the U.S.?
[01:42:47.510 --> 01:42:50.890]  Or if not, what other countries do you think you'll end up doing some manufacturing in?
[01:42:51.870 --> 01:42:53.130]  I would love to do it in the U.S.
[01:42:53.330 --> 01:42:57.010]  You know, the, there's lots of trade-offs when you do manufacturing here, there, or everywhere.
[01:42:57.010 --> 01:42:59.890]  Where, uh, if it's here, there's, there's very little shipping.
[01:43:00.250 --> 01:43:02.250]  If it's in China, there's a lot of shipping.
[01:43:02.470 --> 01:43:09.970]  Uh, if it's here, you can just walk over perhaps and just visit and keep your, um, uh, face-to-face time.
[01:43:09.970 --> 01:43:13.630]  So communication just as much more smooth and we speak the same language.
[01:43:13.870 --> 01:43:16.110]  Uh, we have the same basic culture.
[01:43:16.750 --> 01:43:22.550]  Um, and, uh, you know, the, the same exchange rates, uh, it doesn't get in the way.
[01:43:22.670 --> 01:43:23.990]  Sometimes it's better, sometimes it's worse.
[01:43:24.130 --> 01:43:25.190]  I mean, there's all these trade-offs.
[01:43:25.350 --> 01:43:29.470]  I would love to do it in the U.S. cause I think the trade-offs work really, really well.
[01:43:29.630 --> 01:43:33.650]  Uh, it's getting to be so that it's not so low quality and high price.
[01:43:34.250 --> 01:43:39.290]  Um, like you, you're proving that, uh, you're doing it only for yourself, which is best for your business.
[01:43:39.290 --> 01:43:43.750]  There are other people around that are doing it for other people and we can take advantage of that.
[01:43:44.170 --> 01:43:53.890]  I see this also happening in Germany where people can actually get cheaper prices and just as good quality in Germany as going to China.
[01:43:54.310 --> 01:43:56.350]  And so I, I would consider that too.
[01:43:56.590 --> 01:44:12.950]  Uh, it just depends where I get the best feeling along with my criteria of having a place with high quality, a decent price, uh, people who are treated well by their employer, the environment treated well, and people paid well enough for what they're doing.
[01:44:13.450 --> 01:44:14.030]  And I want to...
[01:44:14.030 --> 01:44:14.310]  Can I follow that up?
[01:44:14.590 --> 01:44:19.330]  How, how, cause I remember you were talking to this about before, how do you vet a company if you work with them for manufacturing?
[01:44:19.510 --> 01:44:20.730]  Cause I know you care a lot about that.
[01:44:20.890 --> 01:44:21.850]  You have to visit them.
[01:44:22.030 --> 01:44:23.610]  You absolutely have to visit them.
[01:44:23.730 --> 01:44:27.690]  Uh, you know, and if it's all the way in China, that's kind of an investment of your time in life.
[01:44:27.890 --> 01:44:28.450]  Yeah, but it's fun.
[01:44:28.450 --> 01:44:30.050]  It sure is.
[01:44:30.230 --> 01:44:36.670]  And now I bring a whole group of people to China to visit manufacturers and hackerspaces and all these things, uh, every year, a hacker trip to China.
[01:44:36.870 --> 01:44:39.130]  If anyone's interested, uh, just search for that online.
[01:44:39.310 --> 01:44:41.850]  You'll find the wiki page on noise bridge and then email me.
[01:44:44.110 --> 01:44:44.710]  First question.
[01:44:44.770 --> 01:44:47.230]  And unfortunately, I have to go to closing ceremony.
[01:44:47.470 --> 01:44:50.890]  Well, I think that's a great thing to go to, but I have to leave here, which is unfortunate.
[01:44:53.110 --> 01:44:56.310]  So, um...
[01:44:56.310 --> 01:44:56.710]  Great.
[01:44:56.930 --> 01:44:57.310]  Can you...
[01:44:57.310 --> 01:44:58.430]  Let's do more.
[01:44:58.650 --> 01:44:59.030]  Sure.
[01:44:59.030 --> 01:45:01.890]  Um, I'm a huge book reader and this is for the whole panel.
[01:45:02.050 --> 01:45:08.370]  I was wondering, um, what book, um, helped you the most when you were first getting started and were like, how do I deal with what is an LLC?
[01:45:08.590 --> 01:45:13.330]  How do I deal with the laundry list or checklist of all the things I need to do to actually be a legit business?
[01:45:13.470 --> 01:45:16.450]  Uh, let me just say one book there, uh, quickly.
[01:45:16.830 --> 01:45:20.610]  The E-Myth Revisited has a lot of amazing pointers.
[01:45:21.010 --> 01:45:27.210]  I don't agree like that it applies to so much of what I do, but there's so many things in there that are fantastic.
[01:45:27.210 --> 01:45:39.450]  One thing that's really, really fantastic in that book, uh, is that you will absolutely hate what you're doing and never want to have anything in your life having to do anything with what you're doing.
[01:45:39.710 --> 01:45:44.570]  Like, I didn't want to see any other remote control for the rest of my life at one point.
[01:45:44.570 --> 01:45:49.850]  I didn't want to see another transistor or microturn controller for the month of November in 2005.
[01:45:50.250 --> 01:45:51.290]  But you get over it.
[01:45:51.350 --> 01:45:53.490]  If you're doing what you love, you will get over it.
[01:45:53.590 --> 01:45:57.050]  And you'll be on the other side really, really happy again.
[01:45:57.050 --> 01:45:58.450]  So just keep that in mind.
[01:45:58.450 --> 01:46:00.990]  If that happens and it will, you're not alone.
[01:46:00.990 --> 01:46:03.330]  And I got that from the E-Myth Revisited.
[01:46:03.690 --> 01:46:04.310]  Thanks, Mitch.
[01:46:05.250 --> 01:46:13.690]  So anything by Nolo Press, those are the tech, they're kind of the O'Reilly of business books, but they cover a lot of the technical details of like, how do you form an LLC?
[01:46:13.890 --> 01:46:15.410]  What are the actual legal requirements?
[01:46:16.370 --> 01:46:17.370]  Yeah, all the Nolo books.
[01:46:17.490 --> 01:46:19.610]  And then also read Dune like three or four times.
[01:46:20.150 --> 01:46:21.010]  Dune's an excellent book.
[01:46:21.010 --> 01:46:21.310]  I'm not kidding.
[01:46:21.310 --> 01:46:22.590]  No, Dune's a really good business book.
[01:46:23.410 --> 01:46:24.310]  Awesome, thank you.
[01:46:24.870 --> 01:46:25.770]  Charles, do you have anything?
[01:46:27.550 --> 01:46:31.710]  No, most of the good business information that I found was online.
[01:46:31.710 --> 01:46:33.050]  I didn't have to pay for it.
[01:46:33.510 --> 01:46:39.870]  A lot of the VCs and the seed investors, they write about this stuff all the time.
[01:46:40.370 --> 01:46:40.870]  Okay, cool.
[01:46:41.090 --> 01:46:41.310]  Thank you.
[01:46:41.450 --> 01:46:43.130]  And I second the E-Myth Revisited.
[01:46:45.150 --> 01:46:47.530]  Hi, I have three kind of questions.
[01:46:48.450 --> 01:46:50.710]  We actually do have to close at 7.
[01:46:50.710 --> 01:46:51.290]  Pick one.
[01:46:51.730 --> 01:46:53.070]  So, they're really trying to put together.
[01:46:53.770 --> 01:46:58.870]  Because somebody said at the beginning, that you don't have a business plan and then somebody said, do you have a business plan?
[01:46:59.070 --> 01:47:01.550]  And I find that sometimes business plans are restrictive.
[01:47:01.930 --> 01:47:15.390]  And then the other thing I was going to ask is you didn't really talk about the difference between not-for-profit and non-profit and how you can have a business where you're not against doing making money, but it's not the driving force.
[01:47:15.770 --> 01:47:16.870]  There's no technical difference.
[01:47:17.050 --> 01:47:17.190]  Yeah.
[01:47:17.650 --> 01:47:19.750]  Not-for-profit and non-profit are the same thing.
[01:47:19.750 --> 01:47:30.370]  A non-profit organization, the owner of... it's a board of trustees, not directors.
[01:47:31.110 --> 01:47:35.770]  And their responsibility is to keep it going if they feel like it's doing good.
[01:47:36.550 --> 01:47:40.910]  And if it's not doing good and they're not monitoring that, they can get in trouble with the IRS.
[01:47:41.190 --> 01:47:41.790]  That's it.
[01:47:42.330 --> 01:47:47.950]  A non-profit organization is a business, but there are no shareholders.
[01:47:47.950 --> 01:47:49.270]  There are just trustees.
[01:47:49.750 --> 01:47:51.870]  And they don't get paid when it makes a profit.
[01:47:52.370 --> 01:47:56.390]  But non-profit organizations should be making a profit and growing.
[01:47:57.330 --> 01:48:03.190]  And if the money doesn't have to go somewhere immediately, it should go into a trust that supports it in the long term.
[01:48:03.430 --> 01:48:08.450]  Okay, and so then a little discussion about how fixed does your business plan have to be?
[01:48:09.010 --> 01:48:09.570]  It shouldn't be.
[01:48:09.670 --> 01:48:10.670]  You should be flexible at all times.
[01:48:10.670 --> 01:48:22.450]  Yeah, like if 10 years ago, Limor said, I'm going to, 10 years from now, have a $42 million open-source electronics company in New York City that has a puppet show and a weekly hacker show.
[01:48:22.690 --> 01:48:23.890]  That would be weird if I had said that.
[01:48:24.090 --> 01:48:26.270]  Which we did, but we did.
[01:48:26.530 --> 01:48:27.250]  That would be cool.
[01:48:27.310 --> 01:48:28.430]  But most folks don't.
[01:48:28.550 --> 01:48:31.910]  I'd say in this day and age, 2016, put in enough flexibility.
[01:48:32.090 --> 01:48:40.490]  So instead of saying we're going to be the number one store, blah, blah, blah, say you want to have the best or fastest shipping, give yourself some flexibility.
[01:48:40.490 --> 01:48:43.330]  So you can go into that because we get asked all the time, we're going to be in five years.
[01:48:43.550 --> 01:48:47.910]  Well, I know we're going to have the best products, we're going to have the fastest shipping, we're going to have the best customer service.
[01:48:48.290 --> 01:48:52.630]  So a business plan that sounds a little bit more like that, because like lots of stuff can change.
[01:48:52.810 --> 01:48:54.510]  In fact, it should and thank goodness.
[01:48:57.030 --> 01:48:58.850]  First of all, such an awesome panel.
[01:48:59.230 --> 01:49:04.530]  I mean, I know I'm not the only hardware hacker person, but in terms of hardware and business, this is amazing.
[01:49:04.770 --> 01:49:06.350]  So thanks to HOPE putting this together.
[01:49:07.470 --> 01:49:17.650]  First thing, are there any lessons to be learned or insights to be gained from what has happened with Arduino in the last year and a half?
[01:49:17.830 --> 01:49:18.150]  Yes.
[01:49:18.410 --> 01:49:20.370]  That may be very quickly...
[01:49:20.370 --> 01:49:22.290]  I mean, I don't know how much you guys can talk about.
[01:49:22.370 --> 01:49:24.330]  Register your trademark worldwide.
[01:49:24.770 --> 01:49:25.250]  Okay.
[01:49:25.370 --> 01:49:25.730]  That's it.
[01:49:26.070 --> 01:49:26.570]  That's it.
[01:49:26.670 --> 01:49:26.890]  Yep.
[01:49:27.350 --> 01:49:30.350]  Arduino didn't and someone else has Arduino in Europe.
[01:49:30.350 --> 01:49:31.470]  SRL, they have that.
[01:49:31.630 --> 01:49:31.930]  Interesting.
[01:49:32.810 --> 01:49:33.210]  Okay.
[01:49:33.370 --> 01:49:39.230]  And then second, when you guys are hiring people, you're choosing partners, like, you know, important employees.
[01:49:39.530 --> 01:49:43.910]  What's like the one or two things that you look for when you're first sitting down with them?
[01:49:44.070 --> 01:49:48.910]  What qualities would you say, like maybe two qualities, someone that you're going to work with for a really long time?
[01:49:50.030 --> 01:49:51.390]  What do you look for?
[01:49:52.310 --> 01:49:53.770]  So we're hiring right now.
[01:49:53.790 --> 01:49:55.590]  So if anybody wants to apply.
[01:49:56.170 --> 01:50:02.770]  And you should be ready to really just step up and do almost anything that's required of you.
[01:50:02.950 --> 01:50:05.750]  You should be able to work in a team.
[01:50:06.410 --> 01:50:07.530]  You should be good with the kids.
[01:50:08.970 --> 01:50:09.550]  Want to get anything?
[01:50:10.130 --> 01:50:10.950]  No, I think...
[01:50:10.950 --> 01:50:11.310]  Okay.
[01:50:11.470 --> 01:50:20.010]  I would say when you talk to them and talk about their achievements and the things that are important to them, if there's other focus and they're talking about how they helped others, it's usually a good sign.
[01:50:20.070 --> 01:50:21.310]  It's all about them.
[01:50:21.790 --> 01:50:23.250]  It might not be so good.
[01:50:23.450 --> 01:50:23.570]  Yeah.
[01:50:24.150 --> 01:50:24.570]  Awesome.
[01:50:24.910 --> 01:50:25.130]  Okay.
[01:50:25.670 --> 01:50:26.430]  Last question.
[01:50:28.130 --> 01:50:28.610]  Hi.
[01:50:29.070 --> 01:50:31.310]  So I've got to pick one.
[01:50:31.630 --> 01:50:33.170]  I've got one on stress.
[01:50:33.170 --> 01:50:40.310]  The other was on the challenge between community building and grassroots and how one transitions into the other.
[01:50:40.730 --> 01:50:57.010]  And the other one is about sort of the respect situation with the tech workers and, you know, understanding that a CEO is hacking a business and that's not always perceived or understood and yada, yada.
[01:50:57.250 --> 01:50:59.870]  And so which one should I dive into and ask you about?
[01:51:01.150 --> 01:51:02.010]  Dealers choice, man.
[01:51:02.150 --> 01:51:02.370]  Pick one.
[01:51:03.250 --> 01:51:03.490]  Yeah, yeah.
[01:51:03.610 --> 01:51:04.370]  Please pick one fast.
[01:51:04.510 --> 01:51:05.150]  Okay, cool.
[01:51:05.270 --> 01:51:05.850]  Sorry, thanks.
[01:51:06.670 --> 01:51:07.890]  Turn or burn.
[01:51:08.190 --> 01:51:08.690]  All right.
[01:51:08.770 --> 01:51:10.630]  So I loved the weekly hangout idea.
[01:51:11.010 --> 01:51:13.030]  The thing that you do at 7.30 every Wednesday.
[01:51:13.030 --> 01:51:14.330]  I thought that was really, really brilliant.
[01:51:14.910 --> 01:51:25.250]  And I was curious if you've run into problems or in unanticipated conflicts with the community once people started to realize that this community building thing has very real business value for you.
[01:51:25.410 --> 01:51:29.650]  You're recruiting, you're hiring, and, you know, did it change the dynamic?
[01:51:30.270 --> 01:51:31.690]  Did it kill it?
[01:51:31.810 --> 01:51:32.470]  Did it make it better?
[01:51:33.550 --> 01:51:33.710]  Did it kill it?
[01:51:33.710 --> 01:51:44.530]  And, you know, really simply just, Mitch made the comment that you can do this community building for free and not be some evil Machiavellian overlord, you know.
[01:51:45.810 --> 01:51:49.730]  It can happen, and I appreciated it, but there's this constant tension.
[01:51:50.010 --> 01:51:57.730]  We have a tech working space in Lancaster, and it conflicts from time to time subtly with the meetups and stuff like that.
[01:51:57.870 --> 01:51:59.830]  So, just feeling it out.
[01:52:00.930 --> 01:52:01.690]  You all want to answer?
[01:52:01.870 --> 01:52:02.430]  Want to say the answer?
[01:52:05.130 --> 01:52:06.410]  Okay, I'll just answer it real quick.
[01:52:06.410 --> 01:52:08.210]  So, there's community, and there's audience.
[01:52:08.630 --> 01:52:10.790]  And a lot of companies don't survive that transition.
[01:52:11.150 --> 01:52:18.310]  So, they have a hardcore group of people, and then it turns to audience, and the community doesn't like all these newbies coming in, and it's awful.
[01:52:18.570 --> 01:52:21.410]  And so, what you have to do is, from the very beginning, set the DNA.
[01:52:21.630 --> 01:52:24.950]  So, for us, with the show and tell, the marketers aren't showing up.
[01:52:25.430 --> 01:52:26.590]  People aren't selling things.
[01:52:26.710 --> 01:52:27.790]  They're showing what they made.
[01:52:28.130 --> 01:52:29.790]  And that's the core of it all.
[01:52:29.790 --> 01:52:31.870]  People could show their new Kickstarter.
[01:52:32.050 --> 01:52:33.450]  That's fine, but it has to be something they made.
[01:52:33.630 --> 01:52:38.770]  So, set up the boundaries and the structure in the beginning, because it's hard to go back and change it.
[01:52:39.190 --> 01:52:42.090]  So, that's what I would say, is figure out what the most important thing is.
[01:52:42.350 --> 01:52:49.950]  If it's a system in which marketers could come in and start selling stuff to people, no one would ever do the show and tell with us, ever.
[01:52:50.230 --> 01:52:52.190]  And so, that's its DNA.
[01:52:52.190 --> 01:52:54.230]  It's showing something you made.
[01:52:54.730 --> 01:52:54.930]  Yeah.
[01:52:55.590 --> 01:52:55.990]  Awesome.
[01:52:56.230 --> 01:52:56.950]  Thanks, everyone.
[01:52:56.950 --> 01:52:58.910]  And I think we finished with one minute to go.
[01:52:58.910 --> 01:52:59.690]  Yay.
[01:53:00.210 --> 01:53:00.810]  Thank you.
[01:53:03.590 --> 01:53:05.390]  They're like, tear down the stage right now.
[01:53:06.710 --> 01:53:07.110]  Yeah.
[01:53:07.750 --> 01:53:08.890]  Oh, that's the vibration.
[01:53:09.190 --> 01:53:10.190]  It's like, screw.
[01:53:10.330 --> 01:53:11.030]  Yeah, no, they're like...
[01:53:11.030 --> 01:53:11.810]  So, we had a...