[00:14.590 --> 00:16.870]  It says live.
[00:17.350 --> 00:18.490]  Because we're important to live.
[00:19.350 --> 00:20.070]  Voice live.
[00:44.260 --> 00:46.140]  Guides will be back in just a moment.
[00:54.900 --> 00:57.400]  So two hackers were walking down the street.
[00:59.240 --> 01:01.440]  Work on the punchline to that for the next few minutes.
[01:01.600 --> 01:02.660]  He'll be back in just a moment.
[01:10.030 --> 01:10.910]  Catch up.
[01:17.710 --> 01:18.590]  Catch up.
[01:18.670 --> 01:19.610]  And one was assaulted.
[01:30.260 --> 01:30.700]  Hello.
[01:32.360 --> 01:33.100]  How are you?
[01:34.000 --> 01:36.140]  Are you having a fun time in H2K2?
[01:36.920 --> 01:39.400]  This is probably one of the most fun cons I've ever been to.
[01:39.720 --> 01:40.700]  It's been a total blast.
[01:44.280 --> 01:45.640]  Has anyone gotten arrested yet?
[01:46.880 --> 01:47.200]  No?
[01:48.800 --> 01:49.920]  Aw, that's too bad.
[01:50.800 --> 01:51.300]  All right.
[01:51.540 --> 01:52.960]  I'm going to talk about some stuff.
[01:54.360 --> 01:58.640]  Some of you who went to PumpCon last year may have heard a little bit of this talk already.
[02:00.720 --> 02:06.000]  So the title of the talk is Black Hat Block or How I Stopped Worrying About Corporations and Learned to Love the Hacker Class War.
[02:08.080 --> 02:15.520]  Black Hat, of course, means black hat hackers are what some people call dark side hackers or just hackers that don't have any respect for the law or respect for the idea of security.
[02:15.520 --> 02:29.100]  And Black Block, for those of you who may not know, is like an activist attack methodology of going to protests and protecting people from police brutality and protecting your anonymity by covering up your face.
[02:29.100 --> 02:36.600]  It's very aggressive and it's a somewhat effective tactic, even though sometimes there's violence, but it's usually police violence.
[02:37.520 --> 02:38.220]  All right.
[02:38.580 --> 02:45.580]  So what this talk is about is kind of looking at how hackers interact with the corporate world and government.
[02:47.940 --> 02:54.680]  So if you take a look at what corporations are or government, it's interesting because this year we're kind of talking about corporations at H2K, too.
[02:54.900 --> 02:57.600]  And the last H2K, people were talking about government a lot.
[02:57.880 --> 03:02.620]  And if you ask any random hacker here which one's worse, corporations or government, you're going to get a bunch of different answers.
[03:02.800 --> 03:12.920]  And so if we look at what some of the simple differences are, corporations are one of the most, like, perfect totalitarian structures ever known in human history.
[03:12.920 --> 03:16.040]  There's no democratic input in a corporation from outside of the system.
[03:16.360 --> 03:20.840]  There's no... only internal decision-making has a very strict hierarchy of communication.
[03:21.380 --> 03:24.280]  And it's very hard to get information out of a corporation.
[03:25.000 --> 03:31.940]  And the only sort of legitimacy isn't really a person's membership in an organization, but, you know, who has the most money, if it's a stockholder or whatever.
[03:32.980 --> 03:40.440]  Governments, even though they're heavily influenced by corporations, especially in the United States, they have at least some sort of democratic popular inputs for decision-making.
[03:40.440 --> 03:48.500]  We have, you know, to a small extent, trade unions and public interest lobbies and local elections and, you know, the big fake elections, too.
[03:50.000 --> 03:53.380]  And there's also some sort of public access to information about the government.
[03:53.560 --> 04:02.900]  We have at the Freedom of Information Act, we have public court transcripts and SEC filings, which help us document the corporate interface into the government world.
[04:04.220 --> 04:08.940]  You know, so we can catch, you know, traces of trails of corporate activity by looking at the government's information.
[04:09.080 --> 04:09.860]  I think those are good things.
[04:10.000 --> 04:13.980]  So I think governments are better than corporations, for what it's worth.
[04:14.140 --> 04:14.960]  It could be a lot worse.
[04:15.100 --> 04:22.480]  In Switzerland, for example, there's almost a non-existent amount of legislative framework for getting any kind of information out of corporations.
[04:23.500 --> 04:25.480]  You can't subpoena anyone for their records.
[04:25.600 --> 04:26.380]  All their records are internal.
[04:26.380 --> 04:30.460]  There's no, like, you know, documents of... because, you know, Switzerland's kind of a haven for corporations.
[04:32.240 --> 04:34.180]  So that's the difference between corporations and government.
[04:34.460 --> 04:38.780]  So I'm kind of going to look at the history of hackers in the past 20 years or so.
[04:39.340 --> 04:50.940]  And hackers I define as people, you know, not an abstract term of the word hacker, which means anyone who wants to test boundaries and exceed them and things like that.
[04:50.940 --> 04:55.940]  But hackers who are interested in infrastructure and hardware and software and access to information.
[04:57.480 --> 05:04.600]  So why do we have to deal with the corporate world if we are interested in dealing with infrastructure, hardware, software and information?
[05:05.040 --> 05:11.200]  We have to deal with the corporate world because they, to a large extent, produce the infrastructure and hardware and software and information.
[05:11.200 --> 05:12.160]  It's in private hands.
[05:12.160 --> 05:30.220]  That's mostly due to the post-World War II Pentagon system, where to, you know, IBM and Boeing and AT&T, these companies wouldn't really exist very long without intense public subsidy of taxes going towards what's called defense.
[05:30.820 --> 05:32.800]  In fact, here's an interesting number.
[05:32.900 --> 05:35.200]  85% of research and development in the U.S.
[05:35.440 --> 05:40.860]  electronics industry is subsidized by federal government, and the profits, of course, go to private firms.
[05:40.860 --> 05:45.860]  And that's not to say that we wouldn't have progress of the past 50 years without corporations.
[05:46.280 --> 05:52.740]  It's because the corporations, in a sense, aren't really the things that are funding the development.
[05:52.880 --> 06:08.940]  They're really the things that are just stealing the funds and making profit off of the development, whereas, you know, maybe a more enlightened country, we would all contribute money to an organization to develop the Internet, and then the Internet would belong to all of us because we all contributed money to it.
[06:10.220 --> 06:15.880]  So that's infrastructure ownership, which is kind of not really a physical thing.
[06:16.180 --> 06:17.280]  It's like the internet.
[06:17.500 --> 06:26.100]  The internet, like most other resources that can and should be public and are in some other countries, like the television and radio, these are all owned by the corporations.
[06:26.580 --> 06:28.100]  It's a communications commodity.
[06:29.580 --> 06:47.620]  So for example, 30 years of National Science Foundation funding and subsidies finally completed transition in 98 under Clinton to private hands when he gave the final bit of the internet away from the U.S. government to the global internet project, which is MCI,
[06:47.780 --> 06:49.260]  GTE, and AT&T.
[06:51.300 --> 06:52.980]  So we do that a lot in this country.
[06:53.100 --> 06:54.580]  We give away the bandwidth.
[06:56.680 --> 06:59.460]  Also, the Telecommunications Act gave a lot of radio bandwidth.
[06:59.580 --> 07:04.440]  I think the number is $8 billion worth of radio bandwidth to corporations instead of giving it to public broadcasting.
[07:05.620 --> 07:10.440]  So that's why we have to deal with corporations for hardware ownership, infrastructure ownership.
[07:10.580 --> 07:11.640]  What about information ownership?
[07:11.960 --> 07:18.580]  Hackers are interested in information and the intellectual property laws that dictate how we're allowed to access and utilize this information.
[07:18.580 --> 07:23.640]  Like fair use laws and copyright laws are greatly influenced by corporate lobbies and treaty trade groups.
[07:24.900 --> 07:31.540]  Treaty trade groups like circumvent democracy, and to a large extent that's what the whole Seattle anti-globalization movement is railing against.
[07:32.280 --> 07:33.500]  Basically, it works like this.
[07:33.620 --> 07:37.800]  If a U.S. trade representative who's appointed by the president or not, it's not an elected position.
[07:38.660 --> 07:40.920]  I mean the trade representative, not the president.
[07:41.060 --> 07:43.220]  I don't think the president is an elected position either in this country.
[07:45.300 --> 07:57.220]  So if the U.S. trade representatives, so for the World Trade Organization or whatever, if they pass a treaty like Wassenmar, Congress passes a law...
[07:57.800 --> 08:06.660]  Okay, when we get into a treaty like Wassenmar, all countries are obligated to pass a local version of law that upholds that treaty.
[08:06.660 --> 08:08.880]  Which in here is... in this country is the DMCA.
[08:11.140 --> 08:15.940]  So that's kind of an interesting way to circumvent democracy because we don't really have any input into who...
[08:15.940 --> 08:17.340]  We have a very small amount of input.
[08:17.520 --> 08:19.500]  We can... maybe our congressmen can vote against it.
[08:19.600 --> 08:24.040]  But that's still lots of the congressmen who are subsidized by corporations who are voting for it.
[08:24.960 --> 08:37.180]  Also, a couple of times in Clinton and Bush, presidential fast track is this requested legislation that doesn't even require congressional approval for the United States' entrance into legally binding trade treaties.
[08:37.380 --> 08:45.400]  And they're legally binding because the Constitution says Congress allows you to get into, you know, signed treaties with other countries and they're legally bound by law.
[08:45.780 --> 08:48.240]  Which is why UN law applies to us and things like that.
[08:49.240 --> 08:53.780]  So, with the presidential fast track stuff that Clinton was trying to get and now Bush is trying to get and may even get...
[08:53.780 --> 08:57.320]  We take even the smallest amount of democracy out of the decision-making process.
[08:58.040 --> 09:03.340]  So that's how... that's why we have to deal with corporations as far as information and infrastructure and hardware ownership.
[09:03.700 --> 09:09.580]  And then if you look at, say, software ownership, new technologies and papers come out from the research community.
[09:09.760 --> 09:12.520]  And that includes, you know, colleges that are funded by corporations.
[09:13.160 --> 09:17.020]  And, you know, some guy writes his dissertation on a new form of chip infrastructure.
[09:17.020 --> 09:21.120]  And Intel can come along and say, okay, we're going to implement and patent that result in technology.
[09:21.340 --> 09:24.900]  So they actually, you know, own protocols and software and things like...
[09:24.900 --> 09:29.200]  Or implementations of protocols and implementations of chip designs and things like that.
[09:29.440 --> 09:31.560]  So that's why we have to deal with corporations.
[09:32.000 --> 09:36.480]  And it's not just hackers that are interested in hardware and software and information.
[09:36.480 --> 09:38.180]  It's also, you know, the activist community.
[09:39.580 --> 09:44.140]  Like environmental rights groups and local people fighting against corporate rule of their town.
[09:44.140 --> 09:46.840]  They're trying to get access to infrastructure and access to information.
[09:47.960 --> 09:52.220]  There's a really interesting camp in San Francisco, north of San Francisco, a couple weeks ago called Ruckus Camp.
[09:52.340 --> 09:55.120]  And it was supposed to be a technology sharing.
[09:55.260 --> 09:56.760]  I think they're speaking here later today.
[09:56.780 --> 09:57.520]  It's pretty cool.
[09:57.720 --> 10:07.060]  I didn't actually go, but I heard it was really cool as far as sharing information acquisition technologies or hacking technologies with activists who need to know how to use this stuff.
[10:07.720 --> 10:09.420]  So that's why we have to deal with corporations.
[10:11.080 --> 10:16.720]  So if... I'm going to go back into history a little bit and talk about how we used to deal with corporations in the hacker world.
[10:17.120 --> 10:19.580]  And by we, I just mean people who associate themselves as hackers.
[10:20.540 --> 10:22.300]  First of all, we didn't pay for anything.
[10:22.880 --> 10:26.300]  Software, bandwidth, hardware, all that stuff is free, you know, in the 80s.
[10:26.440 --> 10:27.500]  And pretty much pre-web.
[10:27.620 --> 10:30.440]  This is... I'm talking about history as far as pre-web and post-web, by the way.
[10:32.120 --> 10:40.000]  You know, people who want access to hardware and want access to, you know, access and infrastructure just decide that, you know, money, it's not actually required.
[10:40.180 --> 10:44.900]  They want the money to... so that I can buy the software from them, but that's not actually required because I can just take it from them.
[10:46.960 --> 10:54.080]  Also hardware, which hackers would find and liberate hardware and get access to hardware and find out how the hardware works through reverse engineering or documentation.
[10:55.500 --> 11:00.320]  Hackers would also interact with... these are all things that we're asking for from the corporate world or taking from the corporate world.
[11:01.400 --> 11:20.280]  Hackers would also acquire bandwidth for infrastructure, meaning penetration for access, getting new information from people's networks, from corporations' networks, and, of course, using the infrastructure and bandwidth for social constructs, like interaction with others and bragging rights.
[11:20.440 --> 11:21.840]  So we're using these corporate things.
[11:22.080 --> 11:23.480]  And then also, of course, software.
[11:23.760 --> 11:29.880]  It's a time-honored tradition to acquire software, acquire the source code that you probably shouldn't have, according to corporations.
[11:30.440 --> 11:41.520]  And also, intrusion of vendor development systems for the purposes of patching existing operating systems like Solaris or HPux or Motorola or Linux or whatever.
[11:41.740 --> 11:49.080]  Those operating systems have all been patched because we can penetrate vendor development systems and patch their compilers and things like that.
[11:49.520 --> 11:54.240]  So that's kind of how hackers interacted with the corporate world, pre-web.
[11:54.800 --> 12:04.140]  And then also what's interesting is looking at how hackers began to become aware of each other and build communities and collaborate with each other's reality.
[12:04.340 --> 12:09.680]  You know, being on these networks and meeting other hackers is a pretty exciting thing whenever you meet someone that's interested in what you're interested in.
[12:11.080 --> 12:15.640]  So we want to look at some ways that hackers have become to be aware of each other and interact with each other.
[12:16.140 --> 12:20.300]  So the first... I kind of did this chronologically, but not really.
[12:21.100 --> 12:25.840]  The first thing... the first way we actually interact with each other is through magazines and T-files.
[12:26.040 --> 12:29.620]  Things like TAP and 2600 and old T-files like Anarchy Inc. and CDC and Legion of Doom Technical Journal and Phrack.
[12:32.600 --> 12:35.340]  And pretty much just go to textfiles.com and all the hacking section.
[12:35.460 --> 12:35.720]  All those...
[12:36.480 --> 12:45.640]  We're sharing information on systems and not just sharing information on how to get into systems and how tech stuff works, but also expressing and building the hacker culture.
[12:45.900 --> 12:49.780]  The hacker culture of not accepting the illegitimacy of corporate control of access.
[12:51.000 --> 12:59.160]  The hacker culture of not expressing... of not accepting the illegitimacy of corporate control of information or corporate control over public policy decision making.
[12:59.640 --> 13:02.920]  Those are all really important ways of interacting with each other that continue to this day.
[13:03.760 --> 13:08.520]  Another way we interact with each other is through BBSs and Usenet and mailing lists and voice bridges and comps.
[13:08.520 --> 13:10.620]  These T-files kind of lead to collaboration.
[13:10.980 --> 13:14.840]  People wanting to actually have real-time talking to exchanges with each other.
[13:15.900 --> 13:24.040]  And BBSs and Usenet mailing lists and things like that, they lead to the organization of hacker groups, which are actual social entities.
[13:24.820 --> 13:27.840]  And then after that, we have parties.
[13:28.000 --> 13:29.720]  We have face-to-face meets.
[13:29.940 --> 13:38.240]  Things like BBS meets or demo parties or 2600 meetings or hacker parties like this one and PartyCon, HoHoCon, SummerCon, DEFCON, Galactic Hacker Party.
[13:38.520 --> 13:39.240]  All those things.
[13:39.920 --> 13:47.120]  Which means that we're able to meet face-to-face and that really improves communication and solidarity of different goals.
[13:47.340 --> 13:48.520]  Like, oh, hey, you think that way too?
[13:48.680 --> 13:51.160]  That's really a relief.
[13:51.300 --> 13:53.240]  I thought I was the only person who thought this way kind of thing.
[13:54.440 --> 14:03.920]  And so then as a hacker group, as people can meet face-to-face, we start to see the forming of actual hacker groups and the various models, which can be categorized by methodology and intentions.
[14:04.600 --> 14:06.540]  There's hobbyist groups like the CCC.
[14:07.640 --> 14:13.260]  There's bandwidth and hardware co-ops like the loft, you know, places that need, you know, a bunch of space to hold a bunch of stuff or have bandwidth.
[14:13.840 --> 14:16.140]  There's physical crash pads and workspaces.
[14:16.980 --> 14:23.640]  And then there's also the intentions, you know, intentions of having, you know, owning lots of stuff or trying to help out a neighborhood or whatever.
[14:24.400 --> 14:30.920]  Oh, and then another methodology is virtual confederacy, the hacker groups that never really meet in person but are always, you know, online on IRC channels.
[14:31.960 --> 14:40.860]  And all these things kind of build on top of each other to make what I think is a really beautiful social art of individuals and hacker groups interacting with each other.
[14:41.420 --> 14:48.760]  And it's not... so it's not just... hacking becomes not just a tool for information exchange and liberation, but as an expression of a person or group's creative aesthetic.
[14:49.420 --> 14:51.740]  There's collaborative coding and pranks and things like that.
[14:51.840 --> 14:57.020]  There's lots of wonderful T-files that are just, you know, people dumping each other's mail spools and having huge fights and stuff like that.
[14:57.020 --> 14:57.600]  I love that stuff.
[14:57.760 --> 14:57.940]  It's great.
[14:58.620 --> 15:03.720]  It all contributes to living through, like, a peak experience and making life very interesting and not boring.
[15:05.000 --> 15:14.120]  So that's kind of how the pre-web hacker world related with each other and started to grow and related to the corporate world.
[15:15.160 --> 15:20.320]  So let's take a look at some of the government responses to these hacker interactions within themselves and corporations.
[15:20.880 --> 15:22.220]  First things first, raids.
[15:22.440 --> 15:25.440]  Sun Devil, BBS is getting raided, like, RipCo and Illuminati Online.
[15:26.140 --> 15:31.540]  Cons getting raided, like HohoCon, PumpCon, Pentagon 2600 meeting.
[15:32.480 --> 15:35.660]  I'm sorry, DC 2600 meeting at the Pentagon Mall or whatever.
[15:36.000 --> 15:36.960]  People's lives ruined.
[15:37.180 --> 15:38.080]  Government coming in.
[15:38.340 --> 15:44.340]  People going to jail for sharing information based on a phone company or corporate evaluation of the private information in question.
[15:44.340 --> 15:45.640]  And if it's worth anything.
[15:46.240 --> 15:50.020]  Like the hyped up charges on the E911 bill.
[15:50.300 --> 15:53.920]  The E911 text file that Neidorf got busted for.
[15:55.280 --> 15:57.820]  So that's one interaction the government had with us.
[15:57.920 --> 16:00.440]  Another interaction is restrictive legislation.
[16:01.300 --> 16:04.240]  Restricting... passing laws that restrict controls to access devices.
[16:05.040 --> 16:08.320]  Telecommunications in the military lobby saying we need our information to be safe.
[16:09.140 --> 16:14.660]  And another interaction or response from the government world to the corporate world is increased funding for police.
[16:14.920 --> 16:17.660]  FBI task forces and simple trainings of cops.
[16:17.820 --> 16:19.760]  Training of cops by phone companies and stuff.
[16:20.540 --> 16:22.160]  Also increased wiretap capabilities.
[16:22.480 --> 16:23.140]  Reduction of privacy.
[16:23.140 --> 16:24.560]  All the standard police state stuff.
[16:24.740 --> 16:28.400]  Which is in some part is a response to the hacker world.
[16:29.000 --> 16:30.860]  And if you look at the corporate responses to the hacker world.
[16:31.500 --> 16:37.300]  Into hacker incursions into their legitimate domain of ownership of everything ever.
[16:37.700 --> 16:40.500]  They increased lobbying for intellectual property legislation.
[16:41.080 --> 16:47.280]  And there's an interesting movement in the late 80s and early 90s of the Software Piracy Association.
[16:47.600 --> 16:53.000]  Groups like that having monopolistic and intercompany collusion to protect themselves against profit loss.
[16:54.240 --> 16:59.200]  You can't... Eventually they're able to legislate that it's illegal to copy software and things like that.
[16:59.260 --> 17:06.680]  But in the beginning it's not, it's hard to legislate that software licenses are law or our contracts for being able to use it.
[17:07.840 --> 17:11.960]  So the SPA attempts to legislate and enforce illegal software backups and things like that.
[17:12.460 --> 17:18.180]  And they attempt to enforce arbitrary software seat licenses that protect profit loss for corporations.
[17:18.180 --> 17:19.760]  so that they can make more money off of software.
[17:20.660 --> 17:23.140]  And this is interesting because it kind of...
[17:23.560 --> 17:25.000]  that's your point at the word of security.
[17:25.140 --> 17:27.960]  Everyone has an idea in their head of what security is.
[17:28.580 --> 17:35.660]  A lot of us who write software for personal use take it to mean the protection of privacy of interfaces or communication or whatever.
[17:36.280 --> 17:48.100]  Corporations use it in the same way that Pentagon system planners in post-World War II did when they said the word to use for putting taxes into the defense industry is subsidy...
[17:48.100 --> 17:49.760]  I'm sorry, it's security, not subsidy.
[17:50.180 --> 17:53.500]  It's security of their legitimacy to power, money, public resources.
[17:53.700 --> 17:58.200]  So the security of their machines is security of their right to access...
[17:58.840 --> 18:02.800]  their right to own the network that was built on public funds.
[18:02.800 --> 18:03.940]  It's their right to own it.
[18:03.960 --> 18:06.820]  So they need the security to protect you from taking it back or whatever.
[18:06.980 --> 18:10.960]  So it's different between privacy and protecting the unrightful...
[18:10.960 --> 18:19.700]  The rightful, the wrong ownership of corporations of all these resources that they've, you know, hardware, software, infrastructure that they've taken public funds to create.
[18:21.760 --> 18:32.640]  So in the early 90s, just right when the web is starting to happen, with these raids and the press is becoming aware of the various hacker subcultures, the hacker world is kind of at a crossroads with many directions to go.
[18:32.980 --> 18:36.460]  And so here's some of the pioneers in the hacker world that kind of decided where we're going to go.
[18:36.460 --> 18:39.000]  Chris Goggins from Legion of Doom.
[18:40.120 --> 18:41.320]  Yeah, is he here?
[18:42.520 --> 18:46.280]  He formed, I think, one of the first real hacker security companies, which is ComSec.
[18:46.520 --> 18:54.880]  And he was in Newsweek or Time or something with Mirror Shades and was there to get press for being a hacker and offering to secure people's systems.
[18:54.960 --> 18:59.420]  He was really ahead of his time because, you know, that's what most security companies are nowadays.
[18:59.760 --> 19:01.400]  But this is, you know, it just wasn't right.
[19:02.400 --> 19:15.520]  Chris Klaus, who wrote as a college student, he wrote an automated vulnerability scanner called ISS, which he wrote, you know, grabbed from everyone else's code and said, you know, give me all your exploits and I'll write an ISS scanner.
[19:15.680 --> 19:17.140]  And then he started a company called ISS.
[19:17.640 --> 19:19.180]  He got a lot of hackers to work for him and stuff.
[19:19.180 --> 19:23.660]  So that's... he was another pioneer of kind of using, you know, security tools.
[19:23.900 --> 19:25.700]  Also, Dan Farmer, who wrote Satan.
[19:27.720 --> 19:29.780]  MindVox and The Well were kind of other hacker pioneers.
[19:30.080 --> 19:30.980]  They're BBSs.
[19:31.180 --> 19:37.540]  They were kind of cashing in on the BBS technology that was, you know, kind of hacker developed and the attitude of online communities.
[19:37.780 --> 19:44.340]  I mean, everyone has online communities now, but these were, you know, kind of seminal online communities, along with Usenet and other local BBSs.
[19:44.340 --> 19:59.900]  But these guys were able to, you know, they started kind of small ISPs and they started the ball rolling of hacker culture as expressed in, you know, magazines like Mono 2000 and the hyper capitalist magazine Wired and eventually like Fast Company and things like that.
[19:59.980 --> 20:10.280]  They really started the ball rolling of like, you know, write lots of articles about this cool BBS community, which has a lot of attitude and it's a bunch of hackers and things like that.
[20:10.280 --> 20:12.120]  That's kind of selling the culture of hacking.
[20:14.220 --> 20:30.580]  Another kind of seminal pioneer would be would be like Hacktic from Holland's Becoming XS4All, which is kind of pioneering in becoming a non-corporate ISP, really, or non- non-corporate ISP, bringing public access to Holland's and also lots of other local,
[20:30.700 --> 20:35.020]  you know, U.S. ISPs like PubNix and Telerama from Pittsburgh and things like that.
[20:35.960 --> 20:37.620]  So those are some other pioneers.
[20:38.120 --> 20:43.460]  Also, there's technology, which hackers pioneer, technology like BBSs.
[20:43.700 --> 20:51.360]  Like BBSs like Waffle and stuff like that put entire countries online via UCP onto the internet in the late 80s and early 90s.
[20:51.500 --> 20:53.060]  And also hacker technology like IRC.
[20:53.220 --> 21:00.260]  So this is kind of a photo stat of like what the world, you know, where we could go.
[21:00.260 --> 21:01.900]  We're writing lots of software.
[21:02.180 --> 21:05.620]  We have lots of interactions with the corporate world, like little baby steps towards this and that.
[21:06.700 --> 21:11.020]  So many new beasts are born of these specific hacker interactions and proliferated.
[21:11.480 --> 21:17.840]  From these times comes the open software movement, peer-to-peer communication, the security industry, and public ISPs.
[21:17.840 --> 21:19.920]  So now it's post-web.
[21:20.500 --> 21:23.420]  It's the late 90s in this history, not now.
[21:23.740 --> 21:26.140]  And everyone's trying to make money off the internet and software.
[21:26.740 --> 21:39.460]  And we can take a look at how after the web has happened, how hacker interactions with corporations and hacker interactions with ourselves have changed over the past 10 years with the introductions of these new constructs that are, if not strongly influenced by,
[21:39.660 --> 21:41.620]  outright products of the hacker movement.
[21:42.420 --> 21:46.540]  The constructs of open source, security industry, public ISPs, things like that.
[21:47.740 --> 22:01.920]  So one of the biggest, I think, one of the most important hacker interactions with the corporate world, it's kind of a shift from piracy and liberation of things to, like, dollar-dollar bill, y'all, kind of, like, get your cash money made.
[22:02.420 --> 22:04.480]  But one of the most important ones is the security industry.
[22:05.060 --> 22:19.140]  ComSec and ISS and those other companies spawned other business models, like Cambridge Technology, At State, Garden, Bindview, based on penetration testing, code auditing, network infrastructure protection, application framework security policies, protecting banks,
[22:19.300 --> 22:20.040]  public key infrastructure.
[22:20.500 --> 22:32.840]  Millions of dollars a year are spent towards security services, which were started by hacker-run companies and expanded to the big six or big five or whatever, how many there are accounting firms, like KPMG and Anderson and Deloitte and Touche.
[22:33.580 --> 22:38.920]  IBM, you know, had security, had that, remember that ethical hacking campaign, the ethical hackers you could buy to come in and hack into your network.
[22:39.660 --> 22:49.640]  So the hacker interaction with the corporate world are these hackers building security companies to, you know, to kind of create the security industry and really cash out on it.
[22:49.760 --> 22:53.520]  Like, you know, Pete Shipley went to work for KPMG as their head of security for a long time.
[22:53.620 --> 22:55.380]  KPMG is one of the big six accounting firms.
[22:56.140 --> 22:58.060]  So that's a really important development.
[22:58.860 --> 23:01.120]  Another important development is free security assessment.
[23:01.720 --> 23:04.600]  Code reviews of open source software to fix security bugs.
[23:06.460 --> 23:15.120]  Plus magnanimous, very magnanimous, free code reviews and security auditing of commercial software, like Microsoft IIS and Windows and Solaris and HP-UX and things like that.
[23:16.460 --> 23:21.340]  Those are, that's basically a free service for corporations that they can make their things more secure now.
[23:21.460 --> 23:26.540]  They can, because people write bugs about them and post them to BUGTRAC, their stuff is more secure for free.
[23:27.700 --> 23:30.140]  And they get a little bit of publicity out of it too.
[23:30.420 --> 23:33.080]  And it's, that's really interesting development.
[23:33.080 --> 23:43.400]  Also, new kinds of hacker groups have come out with the intention, like a new kind of model has come around to, with the intention to sell out or get funding or to be a security company.
[23:43.580 --> 23:46.180]  Like, people get together and say, hey, we can be a security company together.
[23:46.740 --> 23:51.840]  Like, like Loft, for example, gets together and says, okay, well, here's a company that wants to start a security company.
[23:51.960 --> 23:55.680]  We can, you know, sell the Loft to them and become a security company.
[23:56.060 --> 23:59.420]  That's a really interesting development, I think, in the hacker model, hacker group model.
[23:59.420 --> 24:05.520]  And you also have individuals and groups themselves posting exploits and harshing on software as basically a resume to get hired.
[24:06.000 --> 24:11.900]  You post a bug track and you get really known as a really famous gadfly and then like a statistic from the CDC.
[24:12.300 --> 24:14.440]  And then all of a sudden you get hired for Microsoft.
[24:15.120 --> 24:16.540]  SD works for Microsoft now.
[24:16.740 --> 24:18.640]  And it's just like a really interesting progression.
[24:19.020 --> 24:20.580]  I kind of see the cycle as this.
[24:20.700 --> 24:21.760]  You post a fix to a bug.
[24:21.920 --> 24:23.020]  You gain some reputation.
[24:23.300 --> 24:24.500]  You post some bug track posts.
[24:24.740 --> 24:25.840]  You work on resume.
[24:26.100 --> 24:26.920]  You're releasing software.
[24:27.180 --> 24:28.420]  And then you get offered a job.
[24:28.420 --> 24:29.600]  And then you start companies.
[24:29.880 --> 24:33.100]  And this is all feeding into the security industry.
[24:33.180 --> 24:35.580]  And I'll say why that's an interesting thing in a second.
[24:36.780 --> 24:39.700]  So those are kind of some hacker interactions that are now with the corporations.
[24:40.640 --> 24:43.100]  It's also really interesting to look at our hacker interactions with ourselves.
[24:43.180 --> 24:44.100]  Like how we treat each other.
[24:44.320 --> 24:46.840]  As mentioned before, hacker companies get founded.
[24:46.980 --> 24:48.260]  Hackers recruiting other hackers.
[24:48.600 --> 24:50.600]  Hackers doing startups together to get some cash.
[24:50.760 --> 24:54.220]  And feed money into the stock market, the software industry, the security industry.
[24:54.220 --> 24:56.440]  And you really become these institutions.
[24:56.700 --> 24:59.000]  Or at least you start sharing the values of these institutions.
[24:59.220 --> 25:00.480]  The values of money makes right.
[25:01.220 --> 25:04.180]  Software and information security is the same as privacy security.
[25:05.200 --> 25:07.560]  Other hackers deserve to go to jail for getting caught.
[25:07.980 --> 25:10.040]  Security industry can get AT&T.
[25:10.200 --> 25:11.200]  And you as well.
[25:11.320 --> 25:12.640]  Some fat government contracts.
[25:13.700 --> 25:16.840]  Which is... a really interesting case study is actually the Loft again.
[25:17.980 --> 25:22.200]  So when the Loft went in front of Congress to testify at the behest of NIPSE, the National Infrastructure Protection Center.
[25:23.040 --> 25:26.440]  Talking about how they can get into any network in the United States, you know, within a minute or whatever.
[25:26.940 --> 25:33.920]  Direct result of that interview, of that in front of Congress, is increase of FBI cyber crime funds and NIPSE funding.
[25:34.980 --> 25:39.820]  And then, you know, Loft itself, and when it became at stake or when it got acquired by at stake.
[25:40.780 --> 25:46.160]  And as individuals themselves, they enjoy federal security auditing contracts while increasing.
[25:46.600 --> 25:52.100]  Which is really interesting because they're going in front of Congress and saying, you need to increase the money that you spend on security.
[25:52.520 --> 25:56.240]  And then the government's saying, okay, that's great.
[25:56.340 --> 25:58.740]  By the way, here are those security contracts with all that extra money.
[25:58.740 --> 26:07.340]  And so that's, it kind of increases, and so they're making money, sure, but they're also increasing the reach of the police state at the expense of fellow hackers who will go to jail because of these crimes.
[26:07.780 --> 26:13.360]  Which is, which is, it's just, yeah, it's just not a very good way.
[26:13.420 --> 26:19.100]  It's just weird that how if you adopt the values of this, of this industry that's co-opting, you just start treating your friends like shit.
[26:19.260 --> 26:26.760]  It's like, if not your friends, but at least, you know, if not friends in person, but friends who share, used to share similar values with you of like playing with technology and stuff.
[26:27.420 --> 26:34.120]  Another hacker interaction with the rest of us is, with each other is, you know, writing software with your friends to market and make a company.
[26:34.820 --> 26:37.620]  This has gone on for a really long time, you know, just writing software and stuff.
[26:38.120 --> 26:49.560]  But kind of an interesting development is, it's actual hacker software, like BBSs and conferencing stuff like IRC, operating systems like Red Hat and OpenBSD, and Dmitry Skylarov style hacking software.
[26:49.720 --> 26:56.240]  So we kind of get together to, you know, make software and then go into the market, which, you know, also kind of results in you becoming a software company and not, you know.
[26:56.900 --> 26:58.660]  Doing the shareware, freeware thing.
[26:59.560 --> 27:04.220]  Another hacker interaction with the rest of the hacker world is hackers talk a lot about money now and how to make it.
[27:04.580 --> 27:08.820]  It was a lot more prevalent during the boom.
[27:08.980 --> 27:16.760]  But there was this Washington Post article about the DC 2600 meeting a couple of years ago about how hackers these days don't even come to talk about technology.
[27:16.900 --> 27:19.860]  They talk about how to exercise their stock options and things like that.
[27:19.860 --> 27:21.060]  And that's a true thing.
[27:22.200 --> 27:26.520]  I've seen at least a couple of 2600 meetings around the United States maybe a couple of years ago.
[27:26.600 --> 27:28.300]  People just coming in and saying, yeah, I'm a hacker.
[27:28.460 --> 27:29.140]  I'm a Unix admin.
[27:29.580 --> 27:38.640]  I mostly just want to talk about how much money I've made and what it's like working in a corporate government, which is, you know, it's important to communicate those things for those people.
[27:38.640 --> 27:44.180]  But it's interesting that it's still the hacking culture that's grown into this.
[27:45.980 --> 27:54.400]  Another interesting hacker interaction with the rest of the hacker world is the security industry has had a weird effect on the exploit scene, on the Unix exploit scene.
[27:54.540 --> 27:56.460]  And it's caused it to be a little bit more fragmented.
[27:57.260 --> 28:04.200]  The gestation time for zero day exploits is like, you know, the amount of time it can exist in the wild before being posted to a security list.
[28:04.200 --> 28:05.400]  And it's been reduced.
[28:05.880 --> 28:09.060]  It's that affects the ways hackers trade information on bugs and exploits.
[28:09.680 --> 28:13.740]  There have been trends towards like less openness because you want your exploit to still work in a couple months.
[28:13.860 --> 28:22.340]  And if you give it to your friend, it'll get either sold to ISS or posted a bug track or whatever, because so many hackers are working for security companies and, you know, want this like security reputation.
[28:22.340 --> 28:30.180]  So they release these, you know, bugs as their own or they, you know, I get tons of messages every day from ISS people and things like that saying, do you have this exploit?
[28:30.180 --> 28:36.360]  Because they need it for their job because they're basically, you know, selling it to ISS to build, you know, a big exploit database.
[28:37.100 --> 28:42.280]  So that's kind of unfortunate because that causes less communication in the exploit scene.
[28:42.380 --> 28:47.360]  You know, you could give an exploit to someone maybe, you know, seven years ago or something, and it would still work in a couple months.
[28:47.440 --> 28:48.620]  And it doesn't really happen that way anymore.
[28:49.880 --> 28:55.960]  Another kind of interesting interaction that hackers have with each other now as a result of all these changes is conferences.
[28:57.100 --> 29:00.260]  Conferences like Defcon have become outright security industry conventions.
[29:01.180 --> 29:06.800]  And Black Hat and Defcon are actually pretty interesting case because it's kind of a, it's a two pronged exploitation of how her culture.
[29:07.320 --> 29:12.460]  On the one hand, you have Black Hat, which is sponsored by all these big friendly companies like Microsoft and stuff.
[29:12.600 --> 29:23.020]  And it costs $3,500 for the full track for CEOs and information security people and government military people to attend and find out why they should spend all their money on the security industry.
[29:23.500 --> 29:32.540]  You learn about the latest intrusion techniques from hackers who are there to present their, you know, serious Black Hat talk that they've been working on to present at Black Hat instead of something a little less corporate like, say, Usenix.
[29:32.820 --> 29:36.740]  But the money that's at Black Hat and all the attention provides legitimacy for your work.
[29:36.840 --> 29:39.860]  And plus you get a free ticket to go to Defcon so you're working on your paper for Black Hat.
[29:40.420 --> 29:50.540]  And coincidentally enough, when the CEOs or whatever are done at Black Hat, they get a free Defcon badge to attend the hacker freak culture side show so you can go and see the people that you're supposed to be afraid of close and personal.
[29:50.540 --> 29:53.900]  And of course do lots of drugs and watch the strippers jiggle and all that other stuff.
[29:54.060 --> 29:55.820]  So that's the first prong.
[29:55.900 --> 29:57.080]  I'm not saying New York doesn't have strip.
[29:57.200 --> 29:58.540]  Oh wait, you guys don't have strippers anymore, do you?
[29:58.880 --> 29:59.700]  Sorry, Giuliani.
[30:01.980 --> 30:08.960]  So that's the first prong of exploitation is a showcase of the hacker culture to improve the security industry's bottom line.
[30:09.800 --> 30:11.720]  The second prong is a little bit more obvious one.
[30:11.860 --> 30:16.400]  It's the type of exploitation that should be clear to anybody who has ever paid $100 or $75 for a rave.
[30:17.000 --> 30:19.760]  It's co-opting, packing, and selling the hacker culture to the kids.
[30:19.980 --> 30:23.680]  You pay your entrance fee so you can come in and mill around the $20 t-shirt mall.
[30:23.920 --> 30:29.640]  You check out all the latest talks that are either demonstrations of corporate products or presentations by corporate hackers, people who've made hacker companies.
[30:30.100 --> 30:34.420]  And then you get pushed around by f*ckhead security guards who are usually angry at you for being at their party.
[30:34.640 --> 30:40.020]  That's a really great introduction, I think, to hacker culture for a new person who's just, you know, interested in computers and comes here.
[30:40.020 --> 30:41.260]  It's like, welcome to your new identity.
[30:41.400 --> 30:43.720]  Hope you brought your wallet because that's how you're going to be able to participate.
[30:44.620 --> 30:47.640]  And by the way, Jeff Moss and his friends make a shit pile of money off the whole thing.
[30:49.180 --> 30:52.700]  And so they all get paid and they get to do lines of DMT off of strippers tits.
[30:52.800 --> 30:54.900]  And it's a great weekend in Vegas.
[30:57.280 --> 30:58.580]  Don't snort DMT, by the way.
[30:58.680 --> 30:59.180]  It's bad for you.
[31:00.440 --> 31:05.240]  Which is, of course, why most people either go to Vegas because all their friends are going to be there and avoid the con entirely.
[31:06.140 --> 31:08.760]  Or they boycott it entirely, as a lot of people are doing this year.
[31:10.720 --> 31:15.980]  Except it's not even possible to... I think this year they're not allowing people who are just in town to even come into the hotel.
[31:16.140 --> 31:19.760]  The entire hotel is cordoned off for the con, so you can't even come in.
[31:20.280 --> 31:24.620]  Because they don't want strange people coming in and getting into their party, I guess.
[31:26.420 --> 31:28.600]  Yeah, so compare that to this conference.
[31:28.900 --> 31:33.240]  Compare that to HAL last year, which had 3,000 people or how many ever.
[31:33.240 --> 31:38.660]  Hackers at Large, the big Dutch hacker conference in the middle of a couple hours outside of Amsterdam.
[31:38.800 --> 31:41.240]  There are no security guards there and no serious problems.
[31:41.340 --> 31:45.700]  People all just chipping in and saying, oh, we're all going to get together and talk to our shit and do talks and stuff like that.
[31:45.780 --> 31:47.600]  It was a pretty amazing conference, and this one is too.
[31:48.900 --> 31:52.200]  So those are some ways we changed with this new influx of money.
[31:53.580 --> 31:59.120]  And so how have the corporate world and the government responded to us with these ways that we treat each other and the ways we respond to them?
[31:59.120 --> 32:06.240]  Well, the government response to hackers that we have now, and it's partly a response to the past 20 years of hacker culture, and it's partly just...
[32:06.240 --> 32:06.960]  Oh, you're kidding.
[32:07.900 --> 32:09.060]  Wow, I'll go really fast.
[32:10.320 --> 32:11.460]  It's just scary.
[32:11.600 --> 32:16.720]  The government response to hackers is cyber crime funding for FBI has been increased again and again, especially with the PATRIOT Act.
[32:17.140 --> 32:21.440]  FBI has extended the police state jurisdiction to overseas countries and invites hackers here to arrest them.
[32:22.220 --> 32:26.240]  Hyperfunding of Nipsey, security industry-aided electronic Pearl Harbor scare tactics.
[32:26.760 --> 32:30.920]  George Smith, who writes a newsletter called Corrupt Newsletter, has a really interesting watch.
[32:31.060 --> 32:31.740]  He's a really diligent guy.
[32:31.880 --> 32:46.160]  He watches all the instances of the word electronic Pearl Harbor and references to that computer virus that was in a printer that was sent to Iraq, which is just totally fake and totally false, but people still report it as valid fact and are very terrified of the electronic Pearl Harbor.
[32:48.640 --> 32:50.800]  Reduction of privacy, it's easier to get a wiretap.
[32:50.920 --> 32:52.320]  That's another way the government's responded to us.
[32:52.540 --> 32:57.240]  And intellectual property, treaty negotiation power has been delegated almost wholly to trade groups.
[32:57.720 --> 33:01.760]  And then we also have things like copyright as criminal suits for copyright infringement.
[33:01.840 --> 33:08.320]  So that's a really interesting way the government's responded to people who, like us, were interested in access to technology and access to hardware and software.
[33:08.460 --> 33:09.260]  And the corporate responses?
[33:09.540 --> 33:12.840]  Well, first things first, they recognized security as a valid big industry.
[33:13.360 --> 33:17.700]  Accounting firms, IBM, Microsoft, lots of people cash out and, you know, make millions of dollars a year on this.
[33:18.180 --> 33:24.120]  They also semi-embraced open source world, funding important software like Red Hat, which makes some hackers very, very rich.
[33:24.260 --> 33:26.980]  They can fly to cons and read Slashdot and purchase cool gadgets.
[33:27.280 --> 33:29.960]  But they also kind of end up adopting the values of these corporations.
[33:30.740 --> 33:33.000]  As mentioned above, as I mentioned earlier, yeah.
[33:33.980 --> 33:37.700]  They also get wonderful capitalist values like I'm smart, so I deserve more.
[33:38.280 --> 33:41.900]  Other people can be taken advantage of because they're dumb and they don't know how to use computers.
[33:41.900 --> 33:46.780]  As opposed to fighting against the oppression and illegitimate power of corporations with their money.
[33:47.820 --> 33:53.220]  Also, corporations have formed international trade groups to protect their intellectual property rights outside of the democratic realm.
[33:54.100 --> 33:56.820]  You know, laws like NAFTA and groups like WTO.
[33:57.040 --> 34:04.680]  Treaties like Wasserman are also, they require local laws passed under the DMCA here to restrict reverse engineering of their profit-enforcing technology.
[34:04.680 --> 34:06.980]  So they can't really legislate their right to profit.
[34:07.620 --> 34:15.560]  You can't really legislate their... you can't legislate that you can't fast forward through a commercial on your own custom DVD player or circumvent the original code.
[34:15.680 --> 34:22.100]  But they can legislate to take away your right to figure out how they work so that you can go to jail for making your own.
[34:22.100 --> 34:27.040]  And also, corporations have had collusion with hardware vendors like IDE hard drive creator bits.
[34:27.280 --> 34:33.240]  So that, you know, it's going to be illegal in a couple of years to use an illegal hard drive on your machine because, you know, just to save data on it.
[34:34.380 --> 34:41.020]  Also, other corporate responses to the hacker world are Sun and Digital arresting people like Mitnick for software that they now distribute for free.
[34:41.200 --> 34:44.720]  Like Sun distributes the source codes that Mitnick had for free now, even though he went to jail for that.
[34:44.720 --> 34:48.400]  For, you know, millions of dollars of damages.
[34:48.840 --> 34:52.580]  And also, of course, Adobe arresting people for violation of their IP.
[34:52.760 --> 34:53.280]  What's that?
[34:54.680 --> 34:55.800]  Is that a dead body?
[35:03.310 --> 35:03.790]  Thanks.
[35:05.310 --> 35:06.270]  Another corporate...
[35:08.590 --> 35:13.490]  Another corporate response is Adobe arresting people for violation of their intellectual property.
[35:13.690 --> 35:18.810]  And they can't even drop the charges even if they wanted to because it's a criminal violation of the DMCA, not a civil case against Skylarov.
[35:18.810 --> 35:20.770]  So I'm going to wind it up now.
[35:21.110 --> 35:22.450]  I don't really believe in experts.
[35:22.630 --> 35:23.870]  I'm definitely not an expert.
[35:24.050 --> 35:28.050]  But I think that everyone here can be an expert in your own reality.
[35:28.190 --> 35:35.630]  And if you pay attention to the world around you and seek out information, you can see all sorts of these kinds of patterns and how they affect people who are interested in the same freedoms and technology that we are.
[35:35.790 --> 35:37.690]  So there are plenty more of these patterns to notice.
[35:37.790 --> 35:39.810]  But let me just summarize my own observations.
[35:40.090 --> 35:48.490]  Since the invention of the web, corporate and government responses to the hacker world and hacker ideals of free access and speech have been increasingly more violent, coercive, and exploitative.
[35:49.150 --> 35:58.690]  According to the media, hacker responses to the world at large are falling more into line with capitalist motivations and accepted corporate government doctrine of make some money, attack the US's enemies, etc.
[35:59.530 --> 36:02.690]  And by the way, you know, other countries aren't our enemies.
[36:02.870 --> 36:06.830]  They're the enemies selected for us by the leaders of this country and the transnational corporate masters.
[36:12.390 --> 36:16.050]  We hate Iraq because we couldn't exclusively develop their oil resources.
[36:16.530 --> 36:18.370]  We couldn't shut out France and Russia.
[36:18.610 --> 36:21.570]  The world accord is our enemy because they condemn our invasion of Nicaragua.
[36:22.010 --> 36:29.350]  Brown people of the world are threatening our security by demanding control of their own local resources in Nicaragua, Afghanistan, Guatemala, Haiti, and the list goes on.
[36:29.350 --> 36:36.350]  So just don't buy into that shit about we have to attack the US's enemies because it's the enemies of the corporations that elected your leaders or our leaders.
[36:36.550 --> 36:40.790]  So also since the invention of the web, the development of the military industrial security complex has happened.
[36:41.170 --> 36:46.370]  Information is developed by corporations and governments or acquired from university student theses or feces.
[36:48.150 --> 37:04.590]  The information is threatened by the hackers or non-U.S. corporations and governments, cured by the hackers in the security industry, and money is made and police state power is extended, which is important because our population is increasingly growing poorer and poorer as wages go down and job instability makes corporate and stockholders richer and richer.
[37:04.850 --> 37:07.790]  So we need more prisons and police to make sure they don't get out of line.
[37:08.070 --> 37:13.150]  So the security, you know, industrial military complex is helping that happen.
[37:14.170 --> 37:18.370]  It's also interesting because the security... making prisons helps corporations.
[37:19.150 --> 37:31.890]  Making prisons and high-tech industry, like things to monitor people, cameras for prisons, like new high-tech state-of-the-art prisons, really also spurs along the security industry or high-tech industry.
[37:32.090 --> 37:35.270]  They get to make new interesting things like eyeball scanners and shit like that.
[37:36.070 --> 37:37.230]  So where do we go from here?
[37:37.310 --> 37:38.110]  This is the end of my talk.
[37:38.370 --> 37:42.490]  I personally... it looks pretty bleak, but I actually personally have a great deal of hope.
[37:43.390 --> 37:44.930]  for the actions of the future.
[37:45.210 --> 37:50.150]  There are actively anti-corporate, pro-autonomy, grassroots hacker movements all over the world.
[37:50.570 --> 37:52.710]  Local 2600 meetings are a really big one.
[37:53.190 --> 37:56.770]  There are non-DEFCON hacker conferences like this one, HAL, SummerCon.
[37:57.630 --> 38:00.550]  Andy Mueller-Mond is a representative on ICANN now.
[38:00.650 --> 38:02.530]  And that's actually really important for how we actually...
[38:02.530 --> 38:05.690]  having a hacker mindset in on how we actually access information.
[38:06.630 --> 38:09.170]  Having some input on how we actually access information around the world.
[38:09.470 --> 38:11.530]  And there's, of course, anti-DEFCON actions every year.
[38:11.530 --> 38:14.170]  So make sure you go and mess up the CON.
[38:15.050 --> 38:18.110]  So also along the hope of where do we go from here?
[38:18.250 --> 38:23.050]  From the ILF, the Internet Liberation Front in 95, who had a big manifesto to get rid of the corporate control of the internet.
[38:23.210 --> 38:26.130]  To the post.com bubble, hackers are going against corporate interests.
[38:26.310 --> 38:29.150]  And are helping to support activist groups like Ruckus Camp and Indymedia.
[38:29.330 --> 38:34.210]  And they're also supporting artists and making hacking a tool of activists as well as a tool for activism.
[38:34.210 --> 38:36.290]  As well as a tool for aesthetic expression and creativity.
[38:37.290 --> 38:37.690]  Technology.
[38:37.890 --> 38:40.310]  Another reason we should have hope is technology is on our side.
[38:40.490 --> 38:41.630]  Reverse engineering is a reality.
[38:41.830 --> 38:44.110]  Profit and scarcity can only be legislated for so long.
[38:44.590 --> 38:51.090]  John Gilmore's What's Wrong With Copy Protection essay says that companies valuing profits over the elimination of scarcity is very, very dangerous and can't last for much longer.
[38:52.950 --> 38:54.270]  Three more bullet points, I swear.
[38:54.730 --> 38:55.850]  We have fought for...
[38:55.850 --> 39:00.110]  Another reason we should have hope is that we fought for our rights against those with illegitimate power for thousands of years.
[39:00.450 --> 39:02.710]  We no longer live under divine right monarchies.
[39:02.890 --> 39:04.130]  We fought for civil rights.
[39:04.250 --> 39:07.570]  The past hundred years alone in this country have brought great advances.
[39:07.770 --> 39:08.890]  There's a five-day work week now.
[39:08.990 --> 39:09.890]  There's collective bargaining.
[39:10.070 --> 39:11.610]  There's a franchise to vote that women have.
[39:11.810 --> 39:15.950]  The current state of repression that we have is a response to these great advances in liberty and autonomy.
[39:16.210 --> 39:19.110]  In 1962, Kennedy bombed Vietnam with no public outcry.
[39:19.110 --> 39:23.550]  In 82, Reagan faced huge public opposition to his Granada invasion.
[39:23.850 --> 39:29.370]  And here in 2002, there are active anti-war dissent voices that the government has to respond to by hyping up security threats.
[39:29.530 --> 39:30.330]  And that's very hopeful.
[39:30.550 --> 39:32.870]  And of course, the security threats injects more money into corporations.
[39:33.070 --> 39:36.870]  I have a lot of hope for that, for all the increased repression.
[39:37.010 --> 39:38.410]  It's kind of indicative of what they're afraid of.
[39:39.010 --> 39:41.530]  Another thing we can do is keep attending hacker cons.
[39:42.070 --> 39:42.930]  F*ck corporations.
[39:43.210 --> 39:44.530]  Recognize liberty's enemies.
[39:44.810 --> 39:45.650]  They're ours too.
[39:45.930 --> 39:48.790]  Remember why you first got into technology and freedom in the first place.
[39:48.790 --> 39:53.830]  I was just downstairs playing ladder on a K Pro 2 from like 1979 or whatever.
[39:53.970 --> 39:55.110]  That's the first computer I was ever on.
[39:55.230 --> 39:56.490]  It was just like such a glee for me.
[39:56.650 --> 39:58.630]  Like remembering being a kid and playing on that.
[39:58.750 --> 39:59.270]  It was so much fun.
[39:59.610 --> 40:01.070]  Thanks a lot for whoever brought that.
[40:01.770 --> 40:03.870]  You know, why you got into computers in the first place.
[40:03.970 --> 40:05.270]  F*cking around with your friends on machines.
[40:05.550 --> 40:06.470]  Exerting your free will.
[40:06.670 --> 40:11.030]  Modeling a world by programming that reflects your own creative aesthetic sensibilities.
[40:11.790 --> 40:13.030]  F*ck the elite mentality.
[40:13.030 --> 40:16.290]  Just because we can all get around the laws and not get caught.
[40:16.470 --> 40:18.590]  Doesn't mean we should sit idly by while others do.
[40:19.070 --> 40:20.750]  An injury to one hacker is an injury to all.
[40:21.810 --> 40:23.670]  My final words are ignore the laws.
[40:24.030 --> 40:24.610]  Steal software.
[40:24.750 --> 40:25.270]  Pirate shit.
[40:25.410 --> 40:26.390]  Take the access back.
[40:26.590 --> 40:27.870]  All developed on public funds.
[40:28.030 --> 40:28.910]  Bring it back to the public.
[40:29.410 --> 40:30.290]  Some things you can do.
[40:30.430 --> 40:32.030]  Provide free technology to co-ops.
[40:32.390 --> 40:32.910]  Learn to weld.
[40:33.030 --> 40:33.950]  Make some f*cking robots.
[40:34.750 --> 40:35.730]  Communicate with the world.
[40:35.890 --> 40:36.890]  Refine your world view.
[40:37.090 --> 40:37.570]  Make friends.
[40:37.790 --> 40:39.130]  Don't let them force you into being alone.
[40:39.610 --> 40:40.890]  Steal from corporations for a living.
[40:40.890 --> 40:42.770]  Support your local communities however you can.
[40:43.130 --> 40:43.670]  Free cell phone.
[40:43.810 --> 40:44.290]  Free wireless.
[40:44.490 --> 40:44.590]  Whatever.
[40:44.850 --> 40:45.450]  Just give it to them.
[40:45.590 --> 40:46.290]  You can do it.
[40:46.390 --> 40:46.950]  Go to DEFCON.
[40:47.130 --> 40:47.930]  Hack the shit out of it.
[40:48.230 --> 40:49.230]  Down with the security industry.
[40:49.550 --> 40:51.490]  Organization is the most important thing you can do.
[40:51.850 --> 40:52.830]  Talk to as many people.
[40:52.990 --> 40:53.730]  Hack shit up.
[40:53.930 --> 40:56.370]  And ask yourself if there are no computers, what would you do for a living?
[40:56.590 --> 40:57.070]  The end.
[40:57.230 --> 40:57.530]  Thanks.
[41:08.520 --> 41:09.420]  Do we have any...
[41:10.300 --> 41:11.200]  Thank you very much.
[41:11.340 --> 41:13.380]  It's very terrifying to be in front of you all.
[41:13.500 --> 41:16.220]  And of course express these things because they aren't really expressed a lot of other places.
[41:16.360 --> 41:18.960]  So it's even more terrifying because you think everyone's going to throw rocks at you.
[41:19.520 --> 41:21.300]  Do we have time for questions at all?
[41:23.100 --> 41:23.500]  Please.
[41:23.780 --> 41:24.460]  The last guy went over.
[41:27.260 --> 41:27.660]  Okay.
[41:27.800 --> 41:28.520]  Are there any questions?
[41:29.300 --> 41:29.800]  At all?
[41:32.080 --> 41:32.480]  Great.
[41:34.540 --> 41:37.540]  Come talk to me later if you're at all interested in any of this.
[41:37.840 --> 41:38.300]  Or you have any...
[41:38.300 --> 41:38.380]  Oh.
[41:38.520 --> 41:39.000]  Are you coming up?
[41:39.380 --> 41:39.620]  Uh oh.
[41:41.740 --> 41:42.260]  What's up?
[41:42.400 --> 41:42.840]  What's your name?
[41:42.840 --> 41:44.080]  My name is Nick.
[41:44.320 --> 41:47.840]  I just have a question regarding shareholders and the right to vote.
[41:48.560 --> 41:52.500]  Does that mean that corporations do have voting rights or not?
[41:52.660 --> 41:55.680]  I mean, you said that there's no one who votes for people in corporations.
[41:55.960 --> 41:56.440]  Yeah, yeah.
[41:56.820 --> 42:00.400]  If you buy one share in a company, you can actually vote and go and disrupt shareholders.
[42:00.400 --> 42:02.440]  Yeah, shareholders aren't really outside of a company though.
[42:02.540 --> 42:03.300]  They're just at the top.
[42:04.240 --> 42:08.820]  And a lot of shareholders are people who are on the board of directors and things like that.
[42:08.980 --> 42:11.440]  The people that have voting stock or the most of it or whatever.
[42:11.900 --> 42:15.460]  Yeah, you do have voting stock within a corporation but I see it as inside that organization.
[42:16.040 --> 42:19.400]  At the very top is the people who have the money and give that to them.
[42:19.860 --> 42:20.640]  Okay, thank you.
[42:21.100 --> 42:21.280]  Sure.
[42:23.960 --> 42:24.320]  Hello.
[42:25.080 --> 42:25.640]  Going way back...
[42:25.640 --> 42:26.060]  What's your name?
[42:26.520 --> 42:27.200]  Elliot Harold.
[42:27.420 --> 42:27.760]  Hey Elliot.
[42:28.060 --> 42:28.180]  Hi.
[42:28.840 --> 42:36.960]  Going way back to the beginning of your talk, you rightly pointed out that corporations are infinitely less democratic than almost any government.
[42:39.280 --> 42:42.860]  And you use that to justify that they're more dangerous than the government.
[42:43.260 --> 42:47.500]  But it occurs to me that the governments have powers corporations don't.
[42:47.640 --> 42:52.420]  Such as the power to take away your liberty, your life, large armies of millions of people.
[42:53.560 --> 42:55.980]  There's more than just the question of who runs it.
[42:56.240 --> 42:56.880]  Yeah, okay.
[42:57.080 --> 42:58.880]  So all I'm saying is that...
[42:58.880 --> 43:01.120]  I wasn't really saying they're more dangerous.
[43:01.120 --> 43:04.040]  I think they're more interesting to see how we react to them.
[43:04.240 --> 43:07.940]  Because corporations don't have any democratic inputs, but governments do.
[43:08.360 --> 43:12.340]  Even though most of the democratic input into the government right now is corporations.
[43:12.960 --> 43:17.760]  If everyone in this room was actually having a say in the government, we wouldn't be going out and killing brown people and things like that.
[43:18.280 --> 43:21.760]  But instead it's people who lobby for senators and things like that.
[43:21.760 --> 43:23.040]  So, go ahead.
[43:23.660 --> 43:24.980]  Thanks for speaking first.
[43:25.220 --> 43:25.820]  Oh, awesome, thanks.
[43:25.920 --> 43:26.180]  What's your name?
[43:26.440 --> 43:27.360]  And second, Jeremy.
[43:27.680 --> 43:27.960]  Hey, Jeremy.
[43:28.180 --> 43:32.960]  I mean, you described a chain of events where people develop software.
[43:33.620 --> 43:35.700]  They undertake this learning of knowledge.
[43:36.180 --> 43:39.140]  And eventually people want this knowledge or want their software.
[43:39.140 --> 43:42.460]  And they pretty much sell out in out and out words.
[43:43.280 --> 43:44.140]  How would you recommend...
[43:45.020 --> 43:46.380]  I'm new to the community as well.
[43:46.600 --> 43:53.120]  How would you recommend people can sustain a comfortable life without selling out?
[43:53.240 --> 43:54.740]  It seems to be their trade off.
[43:54.980 --> 43:56.380]  I just want to see your opinion on that.
[43:56.480 --> 43:56.700]  Thank you.
[43:56.960 --> 43:57.420]  Yeah, thanks.
[43:57.540 --> 44:00.220]  That's a really good point about how you survive in this world.
[44:00.540 --> 44:02.580]  Yeah, I can only take like one more question, by the way.
[44:04.000 --> 44:05.180]  Which one of you has a better question?
[44:08.340 --> 44:10.920]  So, that's a really interesting point of how you survive in this world.
[44:11.220 --> 44:15.000]  And in San Francisco, a lot of dot-com people moved in who work, you know, 60-hour work weeks.
[44:15.060 --> 44:16.000]  And they're not unionized.
[44:16.140 --> 44:17.580]  So, they don't really have spare time.
[44:17.640 --> 44:21.320]  And so, when the dot-com crash happened, they're left on unemployment checks.
[44:21.460 --> 44:23.920]  But without any, really, community to help support them.
[44:24.060 --> 44:26.300]  Because they weren't able to only work 30 hours a week.
[44:26.360 --> 44:28.620]  And then spend the rest of their time developing a support community.
[44:28.780 --> 44:29.800]  Which is really important, you know.
[44:29.800 --> 44:31.540]  You move away from your family into San Francisco.
[44:32.180 --> 44:34.560]  And, you know, especially if you're in the Silicon Valley.
[44:36.160 --> 44:38.800]  You're not really hanging out with a lot of people besides the people that you work with at work.
[44:38.920 --> 44:39.760]  And so, it goes away.
[44:40.460 --> 44:40.780]  Another...
[44:40.780 --> 44:43.880]  I guess all I can say as far as the motivation for doing things and supporting yourself.
[44:44.040 --> 44:45.340]  Is one, you know, build support networks.
[44:46.440 --> 44:47.220]  Concentrate on survival.
[44:47.380 --> 44:48.820]  Share survival tactics with your friends.
[44:49.160 --> 44:53.420]  And remember that the motivations for being creative that you cater to.
[44:53.520 --> 44:54.480]  Those are the ones that will propagate.
[44:54.660 --> 44:57.080]  And so, if the only reason to make music is because you're going to become a millionaire.
[44:57.260 --> 44:59.320]  Only people who want to become millionaires are going to make music.
[44:59.320 --> 45:02.120]  But if the reason to make music is so that you can get it out there.
[45:02.200 --> 45:04.020]  And as many people as possible can listen to it.
[45:04.260 --> 45:08.000]  And they can actually respond to you and say, Wow, your aesthetic vision of the world made me think of this.
[45:08.220 --> 45:10.080]  Then that's what's going to propagate.
[45:10.340 --> 45:12.680]  So, I don't have any answer to that actually.
[45:13.120 --> 45:14.720]  What's the last question, I guess?
[45:15.000 --> 45:16.700]  I mean, part of it's a statement.
[45:17.260 --> 45:17.720]  What's your name?
[45:18.340 --> 45:18.580]  Golgo13.
[45:18.700 --> 45:19.340]  Oh, hey, what's up Golgo?
[45:19.440 --> 45:20.080]  I didn't recognize you.
[45:20.140 --> 45:21.680]  I mean, one of the redeeming things is...
[45:21.680 --> 45:22.740]  Wait, I'm sorry, can you speak up?
[45:22.860 --> 45:33.460]  One of the redeeming things is a lot of the security companies that were like hiring hackers, yeah, have recently been like f*cking over a lot of the hackers they have hired and said, you know, hit the road.
[45:33.460 --> 45:39.640]  And a lot of people who like two years ago were talking at 2600 meetings about, you know, they're f*cking like real cool stock options.
[45:39.760 --> 45:40.280]  Yeah, totally.
[45:40.440 --> 45:41.560]  Have shit for stock options.
[45:42.040 --> 45:46.360]  And, you know, a lot of them are, you know, do have the opportunity to go back to their roots.
[45:46.860 --> 45:47.180]  Yeah.
[45:47.680 --> 45:53.920]  You know, to like what they were doing like 10 years ago, five years ago, before they were, you know, testifying before Congress or whatever.
[45:54.140 --> 45:56.240]  I mean, maybe some are eating dog food now, but...
[45:56.240 --> 45:56.740]  I think so.
[45:56.820 --> 45:58.020]  Yeah, there's a lot of good things they can do.
[45:58.340 --> 45:59.020]  That's a good point.
[45:59.100 --> 46:04.940]  If you don't have the $5,000 to buy the really nice machine again, you're a lot more likely to go steal it from another person again, or steal it from a corporation again.
[46:05.080 --> 46:06.420]  Not stealing from people, I don't like that.
[46:06.940 --> 46:08.340]  This has to be the last question, right?
[46:08.660 --> 46:08.920]  Right?
[46:09.420 --> 46:09.920]  Alright, cool.
[46:10.080 --> 46:10.440]  What's up?
[46:11.080 --> 46:11.540]  Sorry, man.
[46:11.680 --> 46:14.120]  Come talk to me afterwards if you don't want to.
[46:14.120 --> 46:16.820]  And then I'll yell it really loud so the entire room can hear your question.
[46:16.940 --> 46:17.240]  The other guys.
[46:17.340 --> 46:17.580]  What's up?
[46:17.700 --> 46:17.800]  Okay.
[46:17.940 --> 46:18.260]  What's your name?
[46:18.440 --> 46:18.780]  Dino.
[46:19.100 --> 46:19.540]  Hey, Dino.
[46:19.980 --> 46:21.340]  Oh, I saw you yesterday, I think maybe.
[46:21.540 --> 46:21.760]  Yeah.
[46:22.040 --> 46:22.180]  Alright.
[46:22.680 --> 46:23.360]  Just a question.
[46:23.500 --> 46:24.960]  You alluded to this earlier.
[46:25.120 --> 46:26.700]  What are your thoughts on things like anti-sec?
[46:27.340 --> 46:28.420]  I'm sorry, like anti-sec?
[46:28.920 --> 46:30.380]  Like anti-security.is?
[46:30.560 --> 46:30.740]  Yeah.
[46:31.560 --> 46:32.500]  Yeah, that's really interesting.
[46:32.640 --> 46:36.020]  I'm glad that there's finally the dialogue in the hacker world for the past couple years.
[46:36.120 --> 46:45.660]  Anti-sec is anti-security.is, which is really a raging war in the hacker world of white hat versus black hat and who's posting the bug track and who's not and who's selling out and things like that.
[46:45.740 --> 46:47.460]  I'm glad that that dialogue can finally happen.
[46:47.600 --> 46:51.620]  And I don't think that dialogue would have happened without the busting of the dot-com bubble.
[46:52.220 --> 46:56.100]  People like gobbles and anti-security and all these people can actually...
[46:56.100 --> 46:58.020]  Yeah, those are really important dialogues to happen.
[46:58.120 --> 46:59.300]  And I'm really happy that...
[46:59.300 --> 47:01.220]  Like these dialogues weren't happening a year ago.
[47:01.220 --> 47:02.440]  I don't think in a public forum.
[47:02.620 --> 47:03.580]  And those are important things to talk about.
[47:03.700 --> 47:05.460]  Because right now, no one talks about capitalist hacking.
[47:05.600 --> 47:07.800]  No one talks about our motivations to cash out.
[47:08.000 --> 47:09.100]  No one talks about these things.
[47:09.320 --> 47:12.240]  And I'm really encouraged that people can talk about these things.
[47:12.280 --> 47:12.900]  It gives me a lot of hope.
[47:13.560 --> 47:13.720]  Cool.
[47:13.880 --> 47:14.020]  Alright.
[47:14.120 --> 47:14.760]  Well, thank you very much.
[47:14.920 --> 47:15.240]  Bye.