[00:40.500 --> 00:41.540] Okay, hello there. [00:42.560 --> 00:46.340] My name is the Cheshire Catalyst, and I'm with the Voxy Lady. [00:47.240 --> 00:50.220] And I call her that because... Pardon? [00:51.920 --> 00:53.140] Oh, there is no sound yet. [00:53.840 --> 00:54.980] I'm told there is no sound. [00:57.820 --> 01:06.620] Oh, there's sound, but I'm not close enough to the mic, so we need to bring the mic in so that it will pick up both myself, the Cheshire Catalyst, and my friend the Voxy Lady. [01:06.620 --> 01:13.920] And we call her the Voxy Lady because her speech synthesizer keeps using its Vox circuitry to talk to her. [01:17.060 --> 01:23.080] And one of the reasons that I am so into low bandwidth access to the Internet is Voxy Lady's fault. [01:24.560 --> 01:27.180] Because she has problems reading screens. [01:27.900 --> 01:28.360] Whoa! [01:29.480 --> 01:31.320] Particularly with lots of graphics on them. [01:33.020 --> 01:40.140] As you can see, her friend Gina here, the seeing eye dog, has not yet been trained to operate a mouse for her. [01:42.020 --> 01:43.960] This causes untold problems. [01:44.920 --> 01:47.660] And, well, actually, you could probably tell some of the problems, couldn't you? [01:51.740 --> 01:56.900] The talk is low bandwidth access to the Internet using public library terminals. [01:57.660 --> 02:06.560] This is because many public libraries in the modern era allow people to just walk in off the street, walk up to their Internet terminals, and start using them. [02:06.880 --> 02:10.580] You can have a Hotmail account, a Rocketmail account, other places. [02:10.580 --> 02:12.180] I'm hearing a little feedback. [02:12.420 --> 02:13.320] You might want to cut it down a bit. [02:13.380 --> 02:14.080] Bring the mic in, though. [02:14.640 --> 02:15.020] What's that? [02:15.140 --> 02:16.720] You're still really low if you bring the mic in, though. [02:17.440 --> 02:18.560] Bring the mic closer. [02:19.500 --> 02:20.440] Well, we'll try. [02:21.160 --> 02:22.340] Oh, just point it up. [02:22.760 --> 02:23.160] Okay? [02:23.420 --> 02:26.620] That helps put some closer into the band spread. [02:29.720 --> 02:36.380] The trick is that a lot of, quote, webmasters, close quote, think they need graphics for everything. [02:36.380 --> 02:39.400] That they can't say anything without graphics. [02:40.040 --> 02:48.800] To me, the most heinous crime on the Internet is putting up a website that has words printed on the graphics. [02:49.400 --> 02:54.060] And then there is no alt tag saying what those words are. [02:55.000 --> 03:03.040] So, for we who come in with a non-graphic web browser such as Lynx, we see in big, bold letters, inline. [03:03.360 --> 03:04.040] And frame. [03:04.160 --> 03:05.520] Oh, and frame. [03:07.800 --> 03:17.520] These are things that, while Lynx is getting pretty good at frames these days, it can differentiate and drop you through to the various frames you have on a page. [03:17.960 --> 03:19.780] It still can't handle inline. [03:19.940 --> 03:22.320] It will tell you the name of the graphic now. [03:23.160 --> 03:24.760] This can sometimes be a clue. [03:25.020 --> 03:32.280] If it says redball.gif, then maybe it's just a little ball that's put at the beginning of a line to set it off. [03:32.820 --> 03:37.780] Well, why couldn't they put alt equals, quote, asterisk, quote? [03:38.480 --> 03:46.880] So that when it shows a little red ball at the beginning of the line, to a non-graphic user, it would show an asterisk, which looks like a little ball. [03:47.180 --> 03:48.840] I never knew that's what that meant. [03:49.060 --> 03:49.480] Oh, yeah. [03:49.660 --> 03:50.420] I've seen it for years. [03:50.420 --> 03:50.960] Uh-huh. [03:51.160 --> 03:51.860] That's what it is. [03:53.740 --> 03:58.860] Because these things just speak asterisk to her and her friends. [04:00.140 --> 04:04.220] There are lots of people out there who cannot see the screen. [04:05.620 --> 04:06.940] It's going to get better, though. [04:08.080 --> 04:18.280] Not to help the blind or to help the handicapped in any way, but to help those stockbrokers who want to surf the web in their cars while driving down the LIE. [04:18.900 --> 04:21.580] And they're going to be using talking interfaces to do it. [04:22.500 --> 04:24.280] That's when the stuff's going to improve. [04:25.440 --> 04:26.540] Unfortunately, not before. [04:27.460 --> 04:33.600] There are a few of us out there, though, who would like to take low bandwidth applications into consideration. [04:33.600 --> 04:39.780] I get emails maybe once every other month from somebody who says, I'm so grateful to you that your website is links-friendly. [04:40.920 --> 04:51.880] They're in a college dorm where, yeah, there's a T1 into the dorm, but with so many students sucking bandwidth off of it, they turn off the graphics just to get some semblance of speed out of the thing. [04:53.200 --> 04:59.900] And so they're grateful they can find a site where they can grab the information content. [05:01.100 --> 05:03.380] Information is what it's about, people! [05:04.160 --> 05:07.100] Lipsy graphics may not be required. [05:08.840 --> 05:17.100] The example I wanted to show if I had a computer to throw things up, I wanted to go to the website coca-cola.co.uk. [05:18.840 --> 05:23.900] I am looking for a shirt that says, Eat football, sleep football, drink Coca-Cola. [05:24.480 --> 05:29.100] This comes out of England, and it also has the big soccer ball with a Coke bottle in it. [05:29.940 --> 05:35.800] And the Euro matches every few years, they drag out these shirts, and I really want one badly because I'm a soccer fan. [05:37.160 --> 05:41.220] But I go to the Coca-Cola website in England, coca-cola.co.uk. [05:41.900 --> 05:42.400] What's it? [05:42.520 --> 05:42.860] Tell me? [05:43.340 --> 05:46.160] Oh, Horace, you don't have Shockwave. [05:46.160 --> 05:47.240] Would you like to download it now? [05:49.680 --> 05:51.680] Are you trying to sell me Pepsi? [05:52.000 --> 05:52.280] What? [05:53.660 --> 05:57.760] Why do I need the newest, fastest software to read your website? [05:58.020 --> 06:00.460] Why can't you just give me your information content? [06:01.140 --> 06:02.100] That's all I want. [06:02.220 --> 06:03.360] Tell me where to buy this shirt. [06:05.900 --> 06:08.420] So, the companies haven't figured it out yet either. [06:09.780 --> 06:11.520] We're going to get a second mic in here. [06:11.760 --> 06:14.160] We're going to have the mic closer to you. [06:14.400 --> 06:14.580] Yep. [06:15.180 --> 06:16.980] Vicki, please jump in and... [06:16.980 --> 06:17.620] Say hi. [06:18.620 --> 06:19.580] That's, uh... [06:19.580 --> 06:20.380] Let's see, where's that? [06:21.000 --> 06:21.480] That's... [06:21.480 --> 06:21.760] Ow. [06:21.920 --> 06:22.140] Sorry. [06:24.820 --> 06:25.140] Um... [06:26.220 --> 06:26.660] All right. [06:26.820 --> 06:27.220] Should be good. [06:27.460 --> 06:27.860] All right. [06:28.200 --> 06:28.500] All right. [06:29.740 --> 06:30.000] Yep. [06:30.640 --> 06:31.100] All right. [06:32.280 --> 06:32.600] Um... [06:32.980 --> 06:33.300] It's... [06:33.920 --> 06:36.220] Sometimes hard to get a word in edgewise here anyway, but... [06:36.220 --> 06:36.840] Yes, I'm sorry. [06:39.240 --> 06:39.560] Um... [06:39.560 --> 06:40.080] But beat me. [06:40.140 --> 06:40.880] I like it when you beat me. [06:42.520 --> 06:43.340] I'm not with him. [06:43.340 --> 06:44.280] He just thinks I am. [06:44.280 --> 06:44.560] Yes. [06:46.700 --> 06:47.240] Um... [06:49.700 --> 06:50.780] I, uh... [06:51.740 --> 06:54.220] Hacked this stuff a long time before, uh... [06:54.220 --> 06:54.980] Before I met him. [06:55.260 --> 06:56.180] And, um... [06:56.180 --> 06:58.420] When I first started, the... [06:59.360 --> 06:59.900] The... [06:59.900 --> 07:01.480] You know, terminal was king. [07:01.840 --> 07:05.480] And I was finally on the straight and narrow with everybody else. [07:06.420 --> 07:07.300] And, um... [07:07.300 --> 07:09.040] That did really well for... [07:09.600 --> 07:10.760] Quite a few years. [07:11.460 --> 07:12.480] And, uh... [07:14.520 --> 07:15.120] Um... [07:15.120 --> 07:16.260] And then all this... [07:16.260 --> 07:17.820] This web stuff started to happen. [07:18.160 --> 07:19.380] And, uh... [07:19.380 --> 07:20.180] To make it... [07:20.180 --> 07:21.160] To make it all... [07:21.160 --> 07:21.920] Really... [07:21.920 --> 07:22.600] Much worse. [07:24.200 --> 07:24.800] Um... [07:24.800 --> 07:26.380] Everybody thinks it's solved now. [07:26.620 --> 07:27.080] Because... [07:27.080 --> 07:31.660] Big bad old Microsoft got into the deal and said, We're designing stuff for the blind. [07:32.040 --> 07:33.440] We're handicap friendly. [07:34.060 --> 07:34.960] And, uh... [07:34.960 --> 07:37.480] Nobody over there really felt like asking... [07:37.480 --> 07:38.500] Any, like... [07:38.500 --> 07:38.780] You know... [07:38.780 --> 07:40.120] Real blind people... [07:40.120 --> 07:41.200] How that would work. [07:42.300 --> 07:42.780] Um... [07:42.780 --> 07:44.200] But, uh... [07:44.200 --> 07:44.840] But, uh... [07:44.840 --> 07:44.980] But, uh... [07:44.980 --> 07:45.080] It's... [07:45.080 --> 07:46.340] It's their, you know, commercial sell. [07:46.700 --> 07:47.680] The thing about... [07:48.240 --> 07:50.060] The thing about a website... [07:50.060 --> 07:52.320] You know, as far as I'm concerned is... [07:53.780 --> 07:54.740] It really... [07:54.740 --> 07:57.340] It really bothers me when I get online... [07:57.800 --> 07:59.200] And I see somebody say... [07:59.980 --> 08:00.700] You know... [08:00.700 --> 08:01.360] Yeah, the... [08:01.360 --> 08:03.220] You have to download this software is bad. [08:03.500 --> 08:04.000] But the... [08:04.000 --> 08:06.100] Sorry, you can't come here is worse. [08:07.340 --> 08:09.560] And that's when I start thinking about... [08:09.560 --> 08:11.080] How many ways I can do this. [08:13.880 --> 08:15.100] How many ways... [08:15.660 --> 08:16.060] You know... [08:16.060 --> 08:17.600] What else is a way in here? [08:18.540 --> 08:19.380] And, uh... [08:19.380 --> 08:20.820] And then I get myself in trouble. [08:24.120 --> 08:25.220] Information content is... [08:25.780 --> 08:27.360] Supposed to be what the web is about. [08:28.900 --> 08:29.300] Uh... [08:29.300 --> 08:32.080] The so-called webmasters throw up lots of glitz. [08:32.720 --> 08:33.120] Uh... [08:33.120 --> 08:33.920] Lots of graphics. [08:34.420 --> 08:35.580] That have nothing to do with it. [08:36.160 --> 08:36.560] Uh... [08:36.560 --> 08:37.380] There is an alt tag. [08:37.500 --> 08:38.640] Alt equals quote, quote. [08:39.520 --> 08:41.580] And that means that for the non-graphic user... [08:41.580 --> 08:42.760] They're not going to see anything. [08:43.240 --> 08:45.420] But it means they won't be given the error message of... [08:45.420 --> 08:45.980] Inline. [08:46.300 --> 08:47.420] Or, uh... [08:48.280 --> 08:48.840] Or, uh... [08:48.840 --> 08:48.960] Or, link. [08:50.340 --> 08:50.920] Um... [08:50.920 --> 08:54.840] If you have a graphic tied to a link, you should have it in the text somewhere as well. [08:55.860 --> 08:58.540] Like, on my, uh... [08:58.540 --> 09:00.460] Space launch viewing FAQ page. [09:01.120 --> 09:03.400] I mentioned that you can go to... [09:03.400 --> 09:08.140] The Space Today website for the extended launch schedule. [09:08.840 --> 09:09.360] Uh... [09:09.360 --> 09:11.280] And then I have their logo off to the side. [09:11.900 --> 09:13.340] They both have links. [09:13.340 --> 09:16.220] But the graphic has alt equals quote, quote. [09:16.540 --> 09:19.660] A non-graphic browser will not even see it. [09:19.920 --> 09:20.360] Uh... [09:20.360 --> 09:22.280] Will not be bothered by the fact that it's there. [09:23.500 --> 09:24.020] Um... [09:24.020 --> 09:28.740] The text user will see the text and can act on the link. [09:29.060 --> 09:30.600] Yeah, I just want to add... [09:30.600 --> 09:31.020] Um... [09:31.020 --> 09:31.880] Just in case... [09:31.880 --> 09:34.360] Just in case everybody's sort of forgotten this. [09:34.440 --> 09:37.040] It's hypertext markup language. [09:37.600 --> 09:38.440] Not graphics. [09:39.080 --> 09:39.780] Good point. [09:39.940 --> 09:41.360] I'll have to swipe that one. [09:41.620 --> 09:42.000] Use that. [09:42.080 --> 09:43.180] That's a really good point. [09:43.900 --> 09:44.400] Uh... [09:44.400 --> 09:45.580] Text is what it's about. [09:45.740 --> 09:47.780] Because text is where the information content is. [09:48.280 --> 09:51.120] Yes, they say that a picture is worth a thousand words. [09:51.360 --> 09:55.400] But you better have those thousand words in the caption, in the alt tag. [09:55.620 --> 09:59.280] So that the guys who can't see it, know what the hell is going on. [09:59.280 --> 09:59.700] Um... [09:59.700 --> 10:02.460] And there's a lot of people who go, so what? [10:03.180 --> 10:06.000] You know, how many blind people are there in the country? [10:07.240 --> 10:07.680] But... [10:09.840 --> 10:10.280] Um... [10:10.280 --> 10:10.880] I don't know. [10:11.140 --> 10:15.580] You know, sitting here, to me, it's also a question of, uh... [10:15.580 --> 10:18.080] Who exactly is looking at this information? [10:19.280 --> 10:19.300] Who exactly is looking at this information? [10:19.300 --> 10:19.560] Um... [10:20.160 --> 10:20.600] Um... [10:20.600 --> 10:21.960] You know, you get Joe Q. [10:22.120 --> 10:23.700] Public, who gets his first computer. [10:24.200 --> 10:30.760] And it's all nicely put together and color coordinated and all that, so that you can actually turn it on. [10:31.520 --> 10:32.520] And, uh... [10:32.520 --> 10:32.680] And, uh... [10:32.680 --> 10:33.240] Gets on the Internet. [10:34.100 --> 10:34.600] And... [10:34.600 --> 10:36.220] Looks around and... [10:36.220 --> 10:37.560] Sees all these pretty pictures. [10:38.480 --> 10:39.740] Decides to become... [10:39.740 --> 10:41.160] A web designer. [10:43.980 --> 10:45.900] A web master, even. [10:48.160 --> 10:49.160] And, uh... [10:49.880 --> 10:50.460] And, uh... [10:50.460 --> 10:52.760] And really, really can't do it without, without... [10:53.400 --> 10:54.420] Without the pictures. [10:55.080 --> 10:57.400] You know, without the point and click stuff. [10:57.720 --> 10:59.980] Oh, and the software wants to help him do that, too. [10:59.980 --> 11:00.320] Yeah. [11:00.800 --> 11:08.980] And if you ever do a view source on some of these pages and see things like bold, unbold, nothing in between. [11:10.200 --> 11:11.000] And that's... [11:11.000 --> 11:13.140] All this spurious stuff that's left inside a page. [11:13.420 --> 11:18.380] That's often how I get into these things, is I look at the source and see what's supposed to do what. [11:20.060 --> 11:20.980] And, uh... [11:20.980 --> 11:22.380] Sort of go, oh, alright. [11:24.040 --> 11:24.960] But, um... [11:24.960 --> 11:25.680] I mean... [11:25.680 --> 11:27.150] I figured, to the people... [11:27.910 --> 11:28.230] People... [11:28.890 --> 11:30.890] People who are concerned with getting information. [11:31.610 --> 11:32.190] As, uh... [11:32.190 --> 11:32.850] Cheshire said. [11:34.850 --> 11:35.170] Uh... [11:35.170 --> 11:37.410] You know, if I go in and I want to see somebody's specs. [11:37.550 --> 11:39.370] Or I go in and I want to see how to do something. [11:41.930 --> 11:42.250] Um... [11:42.250 --> 11:44.830] I guess, you know, looking at the picture is one way to do it. [11:45.910 --> 11:46.230] But... [11:46.610 --> 11:47.190] I don't know. [11:47.190 --> 11:50.390] You know, before there were computers, there were telephones, as some people might remember. [11:52.010 --> 11:53.050] And, uh... [11:53.050 --> 11:54.190] Telephones were never about pictures. [11:56.650 --> 11:57.170] Um... [11:57.170 --> 11:57.730] You know, I just... [11:57.730 --> 11:59.310] I just think, uh... [11:59.310 --> 12:00.670] Yeah, there's gonna be the... [12:00.670 --> 12:01.190] The stockbrokers. [12:02.510 --> 12:02.830] Um... [12:02.830 --> 12:04.070] There's gonna be... [12:04.070 --> 12:06.290] A point at which there's, uh... [12:06.290 --> 12:07.310] Probably one gadget. [12:07.650 --> 12:10.350] The computer, TV, telephone... [12:11.770 --> 12:12.290] Radio... [12:12.290 --> 12:12.770] Thing. [12:15.770 --> 12:16.350] And, uh... [12:16.350 --> 12:18.190] You know, at some point I think... [12:18.190 --> 12:19.490] I think that, uh... [12:19.490 --> 12:19.890] That... [12:20.570 --> 12:22.690] That everybody's gonna get to the point where... [12:22.690 --> 12:23.370] Where... [12:23.370 --> 12:24.290] At least they... [12:24.290 --> 12:25.470] Wanna have the option. [12:25.610 --> 12:25.890] That's all. [12:27.290 --> 12:28.170] Well, uh... [12:28.170 --> 12:30.590] In fact, there was an article in Brill's content this month. [12:30.890 --> 12:31.410] Uh... [12:31.410 --> 12:32.230] About the telephone. [12:32.410 --> 12:33.770] He was taking a, uh... [12:34.870 --> 12:35.230] Uh... [12:35.230 --> 12:37.830] A distant learning course via conference call. [12:38.230 --> 12:41.710] And with people coming in from Chicago, Louisiana, and even London. [12:41.710 --> 12:44.850] Because they were on a business trip and didn't want to miss the class. [12:45.550 --> 12:46.110] Uh... [12:46.110 --> 12:47.530] Midnight over there at the time or something. [12:48.450 --> 12:48.950] Uh... [12:48.950 --> 12:49.810] The telephone's coming back. [12:51.950 --> 12:52.510] Um... [12:52.510 --> 12:52.790] Although... [12:53.270 --> 12:55.650] Anyone who programs one of those... [12:57.050 --> 12:57.610] Things... [12:57.610 --> 12:58.330] Where, uh... [12:58.330 --> 12:59.130] You know, press... [12:59.590 --> 13:00.510] One for billing. [13:00.710 --> 13:01.710] Press two for... [13:03.730 --> 13:04.290] Uh... [13:04.290 --> 13:05.390] For hold hell. [13:06.390 --> 13:06.950] Um... [13:06.950 --> 13:10.050] You better program it that zero will punch it to an operator. [13:10.050 --> 13:10.710] Because... [13:10.710 --> 13:12.470] Folks are getting disgusted out there. [13:12.790 --> 13:14.670] You are going to lose customers. [13:14.930 --> 13:17.370] If you don't have a way for them to just punch zero. [13:17.730 --> 13:20.570] And reach somebody who can direct their call to who it's supposed to go to. [13:21.150 --> 13:23.690] Many of the menus don't go to where people really think they want to go to. [13:24.430 --> 13:24.690] Yeah. [13:25.250 --> 13:27.410] Eventually they will be sent to one of those choices. [13:28.430 --> 13:28.830] But... [13:28.830 --> 13:30.710] They don't think they fit yet. [13:30.970 --> 13:33.790] So have an operator who can route the call. [13:34.930 --> 13:35.370] Uh... [13:35.370 --> 13:35.610] It's... [13:35.610 --> 13:36.390] It's about... [13:36.390 --> 13:38.770] The programmer not knowing everything about the user. [13:40.790 --> 13:41.230] Uh... [13:42.490 --> 13:44.410] If you're sitting there in a web design studio. [13:44.990 --> 13:46.710] And you've got hot metal. [13:47.110 --> 13:48.630] And you've got Shockwave. [13:48.910 --> 13:50.630] And you've got all this great fancy stuff. [13:51.370 --> 13:52.750] Well, go down the street. [13:52.930 --> 13:53.890] Not to the Sabre Cafe. [13:54.330 --> 13:56.270] Go visit that, uh... [13:56.270 --> 13:58.690] That fourteen year old kid that's been pinging your network. [13:58.910 --> 14:00.610] And say, hey kid, what's it look like to you? [14:00.610 --> 14:02.130] How long does it take to load? [14:03.710 --> 14:04.270] Graphics. [14:04.790 --> 14:09.270] Always put width and height in the image tag. [14:09.650 --> 14:11.750] Especially if those images are in tables. [14:12.370 --> 14:19.350] A table cannot display until it knows the width and height of every graphic it's going to display within the table. [14:20.150 --> 14:22.590] Once it's got the information, you can put the information up. [14:22.690 --> 14:23.330] Put the table up. [14:23.510 --> 14:25.270] And fill in the graphic later. [14:25.470 --> 14:28.410] At least your user has something to keep him busy. [14:29.110 --> 14:30.170] And won't... [14:30.170 --> 14:31.130] Oh, this isn't loading. [14:31.270 --> 14:32.410] It can't possibly be loading. [14:32.650 --> 14:34.430] I'm going to go somewhere else and find my information. [14:35.590 --> 14:36.190] Uh... [14:36.190 --> 14:40.150] The image tag is source equals with the URL of the image. [14:40.790 --> 14:45.330] Well, just bring that image up in your Netscape web browser. [14:46.410 --> 14:47.010] Uh... [14:47.010 --> 14:48.970] Right click the puppy and, uh... [14:48.970 --> 14:50.490] It'll say, uh... [14:50.490 --> 14:51.490] View image. [14:51.490 --> 14:55.550] And in the title area at the top of the Netscape frame. [14:55.910 --> 14:59.250] It will give the width followed by the height. [15:00.230 --> 15:04.490] So you then say source equals mumblemumble.gif, close quote. [15:04.950 --> 15:07.810] Width equals, quote, 159, close quote. [15:08.030 --> 15:10.550] Height equals 210, close quote. [15:11.770 --> 15:14.750] Alt equals, quote, quote, if nothing else. [15:14.750 --> 15:20.730] Or you say alt equals, quote, photo of large group in front of spacecraft, close quote. [15:22.410 --> 15:22.970] Um... [15:22.970 --> 15:30.390] That's on one of my pages where my class from the Florida Space Institute was all posed behind the Columbia Space Shuttle in the Vehicle Assembly Building. [15:32.670 --> 15:33.230] Um... [15:33.230 --> 15:34.950] I think that shot may be in the book. [15:35.290 --> 15:36.570] But, um... [15:36.570 --> 15:37.170] We'll get to that. [15:38.930 --> 15:39.430] Uh... [15:39.430 --> 15:45.150] Basically, let the page know how big things are so it can display the page quickly. [15:45.690 --> 15:49.350] Okay, so the graphics will load in later, especially on a slow line. [15:49.730 --> 15:57.250] Your user at least has something to read and keep them busy and on your page until those graphics come in. [15:59.610 --> 16:01.230] Yeah, there really are... [16:02.490 --> 16:05.510] Or, you know, I, uh... [16:05.510 --> 16:07.450] At the same time, I'm irritated by the graphics. [16:07.450 --> 16:13.130] I often pity my sighted cohorts because they, you know, click on this. [16:13.210 --> 16:14.110] Oh, this is going to be really great. [16:14.230 --> 16:15.870] And then everybody goes to lunch. [16:17.350 --> 16:18.790] Waiting for the graphics to load. [16:19.870 --> 16:24.950] In the meantime, she's using links so all the text comes in in a snap and she's got her information content. [16:25.790 --> 16:28.970] So there are days when text-only mode is a real winner. [16:29.690 --> 16:33.350] Especially on a heavily graphic site where you just want a few pieces of information. [16:34.250 --> 16:35.190] It really helps. [16:35.890 --> 16:40.590] Uh, the way tables work though is they usually have a, uh, column down the left side. [16:40.710 --> 16:42.910] And you have to jump past all of that first column stuff. [16:43.110 --> 16:45.550] The way a table, uh, is laid out. [16:45.770 --> 16:50.710] Before you get to the central column, which is where the information content for that particular page is. [16:51.610 --> 16:54.130] Then below that is the column for the right-hand side of the page. [16:54.870 --> 16:57.690] And, uh, that's, that you don't have to worry about because you've read the stuff you wanted to. [16:57.730 --> 16:59.150] You can slip off to the next page. [17:01.450 --> 17:03.670] Do we have questions or comments from the audience out there? [17:05.530 --> 17:05.890] Yes? [17:06.150 --> 17:08.810] Well, you know, there's a lot of bad design in which we've encountered. [17:08.990 --> 17:11.230] But I think a lot of the time, it's just they don't have any content. [17:11.470 --> 17:13.550] I mean, what people are telling you to find out where the nukes are in North Carolina? [17:18.750 --> 17:19.270] Good luck. [17:19.750 --> 17:20.050] Uh-huh. [17:20.270 --> 17:22.650] These are, these are not content sites. [17:22.870 --> 17:25.790] And I'm not making an excuse if they have bad design as well. [17:25.990 --> 17:32.070] But when I'm looking at links, and nothing comes up, and I can't get to phase one, I say, well, they probably got shit anymore. [17:32.070 --> 17:32.650] Yeah. [17:32.830 --> 17:32.930] Yeah. [17:33.130 --> 17:33.630] So do I. [17:33.750 --> 17:34.410] I say it a lot though. [17:34.910 --> 17:36.050] Sometimes you really have to. [17:36.190 --> 17:36.570] It's a problem. [17:36.830 --> 17:38.190] And sometimes you really want to get inside. [17:38.690 --> 17:39.030] Yep. [17:39.670 --> 17:42.390] A lot of companies just haven't figured out how to use the web yet. [17:42.530 --> 17:48.490] And the, the comment was that some sites will just be fluff graphics and nothing else, and no real information content at all. [17:48.890 --> 17:50.610] Uh, the example given was Carolina Power. [17:51.390 --> 17:58.470] Uh, so if you want to go out and take a look at that as an example, uh, if you're listening on the web to this recording, uh, you know, go take a look at that. [17:59.210 --> 18:01.710] Um, yeah, there's bad design out there too. [18:02.470 --> 18:05.630] Uh, there's people who just haven't figured out how to do this stuff yet. [18:06.050 --> 18:10.570] The companies haven't figured out how to use it as a public relations tool. [18:11.650 --> 18:16.730] Um, they're still swimming around in the dark and trying to find a direction. [18:17.210 --> 18:18.390] And a lot of them haven't yet. [18:18.750 --> 18:23.910] Then there's that coca-cola.co.uk that just, if I haven't got Shockwave, they don't want me to visit. [18:24.050 --> 18:24.970] Give me a break. [18:25.250 --> 18:26.370] You mean you don't want to buy your cola? [18:26.570 --> 18:27.010] Come on. [18:27.230 --> 18:34.310] I wanted to, uh, I saw some, some of those news programs in 2020 on ABC. [18:34.890 --> 18:39.350] And they had a story about blind people that really sucked. [18:39.490 --> 18:40.250] Excuse my language. [18:40.390 --> 18:41.570] Just, it was terrible. [18:42.430 --> 18:47.130] Um, they portrayed really old stereotypes and stuff like that. [18:47.130 --> 18:53.810] And I wanted to get to their site and write some comment. [18:54.030 --> 18:54.490] Yeah, exactly. [18:54.770 --> 18:55.050] Thank you. [18:56.350 --> 19:01.030] So, um, thing was though, um, I couldn't get there. [19:02.570 --> 19:10.410] So, you know, it was just so buried in, in, in line and in line and map and, yeah, it was a mess. [19:10.410 --> 19:10.550] It is a map. [19:10.730 --> 19:11.410] Yes, yes. [19:11.570 --> 19:18.670] So, I couldn't, um, couldn't even get in to write a letter to comment about the, you know, the whole concept. [19:18.870 --> 19:21.170] So, I mean, it's, it's, uh, it's really irritating. [19:21.170 --> 19:23.210] At that point, you simply derive an address. [19:23.470 --> 19:33.650] You'd, you'd go to, uh, info at abc.com, 2020 at abc.com and just, you know, try three or four different addresses you think might be it and get a few bounces back. [19:34.190 --> 19:36.590] Well, I can fake email addresses all over the place. [19:36.790 --> 19:42.290] But, you know, um, try, you know, it's the old, uh, whitehouse.com. [19:43.190 --> 19:43.630] Yeah. [19:45.470 --> 19:45.910] Right. [19:46.950 --> 19:52.790] Um, since whitehouse.com is a British publication that's been around for many, many years long before the Internet. [19:53.210 --> 19:55.290] Uh, a girly magazine from Britain. [19:55.610 --> 20:02.290] Uh, it is much, um, laughed at when people type in whitehouse.com when they want to go to whitehouse.gov. [20:03.610 --> 20:04.730] Is there a comment over here? [20:04.830 --> 20:05.090] Question? [20:05.270 --> 20:05.510] Yes. [20:17.070 --> 20:20.670] So, they're talking about opera coming up with a text mode that can handle frames. [20:20.990 --> 20:21.810] Did I catch that right? [20:22.390 --> 20:24.550] And, no, I haven't heard about that much lately. [20:24.710 --> 20:25.130] Have you, Vicki? [20:28.630 --> 20:30.910] Well, they've mentioned it in a press release but no one's heard anything yet. [20:31.110 --> 20:36.130] Well, um, lots of, lots of people that I know are saying that, you know, Linux is the great savior for the future. [20:36.290 --> 20:37.730] Because it can make everybody happy. [20:37.870 --> 20:39.330] You can bring it up as a Windows environment. [20:39.430 --> 20:41.090] You can bring it up as text and all that stuff. [20:41.390 --> 20:44.550] I, I don't know about that particular thing. [20:44.810 --> 20:47.790] Um, it's, uh, I'd love to see it. [20:47.790 --> 20:56.110] Um, so far, there aren't a whole lot of, uh, screen reading, um, programs written for Linux. [20:56.390 --> 20:58.370] They're working on it, but not yet. [20:58.670 --> 21:01.590] So, uh, my, my access to that is a little limited. [21:03.770 --> 21:04.550] Okay, yes. [21:04.810 --> 21:05.210] Question? [21:05.210 --> 21:11.070] It seemed like, like, it'd be a good idea now to start supporting some of the new protocols of WML. [21:11.770 --> 21:15.190] As far as three languages like WML, wireless markup. [21:15.830 --> 21:18.550] Um, like, two of those other things. [21:18.730 --> 21:20.330] Do you see a lot of that going on? [21:20.630 --> 21:25.670] The question was, uh, it would be a good idea to, uh, work with WML, wireless markup language. [21:26.110 --> 21:27.590] And do we see a lot of that going on? [21:27.970 --> 21:29.930] Well, I don't really have my ear to the ground on that. [21:30.150 --> 21:31.650] I'll work with anything that isn't Java. [21:32.270 --> 21:42.750] Um, but basically, uh, if it's, if it's text-based, and those little phones don't have room for graphics, so it has to be text-based. [21:43.330 --> 21:45.430] So, uh, yeah, that has to be better than nothing. [21:46.150 --> 21:51.170] But, um, when information content is all, you probably want more than what you can get just off the little phone. [21:52.250 --> 21:59.870] Uh, it'll help because, again, it'll make the webmasters a little more aware, excuse me, the web critters a little more aware. [21:59.870 --> 22:01.550] They're not webmasters until they prove themselves. [22:02.110 --> 22:09.930] Um, and I took that concept from, uh, Jim Warren of Dr. Dobbs Journal, who, uh, came up with the term Congress Critters years ago. [22:10.450 --> 22:12.370] Because, uh, he wasn't sure they were all men. [22:13.250 --> 22:16.170] And, um, but they were definitely critters. [22:16.850 --> 22:19.430] So, there are these web critters out there creating webpages. [22:20.310 --> 22:28.210] Um, yeah, WML, since it has to be mostly text-based, since the wireless receivers don't have much in the way of graphics, it has to help. [22:28.210 --> 22:31.790] It supports different, all the different field types on forums. [22:31.950 --> 22:33.310] It supports forums and fields. [22:33.310 --> 22:34.810] Hmm, supports forums and fields. [22:34.990 --> 22:35.250] That's good. [22:35.510 --> 22:36.350] And it will, uh, input files and media. [22:42.710 --> 22:43.190] Cool. [22:43.430 --> 22:51.310] So, we need to get links to, uh, send out information that it's a wireless device and it'll get text-based stuff. [22:51.490 --> 22:58.270] That, that could be a way of writing something simple to put something on a PC and maybe get through a speech synthesizer and such. [22:59.250 --> 23:00.070] I'll have to look at that. [23:00.190 --> 23:00.450] Thank you. [23:10.670 --> 23:11.670] Oh, very simple. [23:12.150 --> 23:13.870] Uh, just bring up a page that's doing that sort of thing. [23:14.090 --> 23:15.950] Uh, up at the top, click on view. [23:16.330 --> 23:17.870] Go down a bit and click source. [23:18.270 --> 23:19.490] And look at the code in there. [23:19.770 --> 23:23.650] Now, usually it's going off to, uh, some kind of, uh, ASP or CGI. [23:24.610 --> 23:27.890] Um, there are libraries of such CGI's. [23:28.570 --> 23:32.550] And you can download those and look at the source code of those. [23:33.030 --> 23:36.630] But, I mean, how does it look to somebody using a, uh, text-only print? [23:38.870 --> 23:40.830] Uh, you see lots of ASP and CGI. [23:46.140 --> 23:48.260] Meaning that, uh, you see the underlying code? [23:48.360 --> 23:49.060] Is that what comes up? [23:49.260 --> 23:49.340] No. [23:49.680 --> 23:51.320] You see the text that it's sending out? [23:52.620 --> 23:53.340] Well, yeah. [23:54.000 --> 23:54.880] Not always, though. [23:55.320 --> 23:58.740] It won't be scrolling, but sometimes it'll at least show you what some of that text is. [23:58.740 --> 24:08.120] Um, also, uh, what's happened to mine is a lot of times it'll say, um, and I don't, um, I don't know what this is. [24:08.200 --> 24:09.980] It'll, it'll start spewing numbers. [24:11.080 --> 24:16.220] And, uh, and then it'll go, you know, 30 seconds, 40 seconds, 50 seconds, and it drives me crazy. [24:16.220 --> 24:16.960] Hmm. [24:17.460 --> 24:28.780] So, uh, you know, sometimes when they try to refresh the screen, it, uh, really, um, coming in it with links, it really, really messes things up. [24:30.520 --> 24:31.000] Yes? [24:31.400 --> 24:32.300] I've got a question. [24:32.440 --> 24:41.040] As far as you were mentioning the graphics are really horrible before, especially for people that are part-time seeing the screen, or, you know, so forth and so on. [24:41.160 --> 24:48.320] I'm sure that a lot of the things that they do is, uh, have software that reads back to them on the screen. [24:48.740 --> 25:03.380] Now, yes, if you take the browser itself and redesign it so that certain things, or when you design the webpage, that you include some of these text-based tags, so that it's easier to then figure out, aren't there any software, or are any people developing software, [25:03.760 --> 25:07.960] that interpret all the graphics codes and just converts it to... [25:10.800 --> 25:12.200] No, a graphic... [25:12.200 --> 25:16.640] ...on the front page and such, the code is still there, it's just being presented as graphics... [25:16.640 --> 25:17.480] But what's a graphic? [25:17.680 --> 25:21.060] A graphic is a bit pattern to be displayed for viewing. [25:21.340 --> 25:25.020] There is no information content within that to say what that graphic is. [25:25.920 --> 25:28.760] There's no clue other than maybe the file name, if you're lucky. [25:29.060 --> 25:32.740] Right, yeah, I guess you're putting the text on the graphic itself. [25:33.000 --> 25:39.200] Yeah, there is no way to tell what that text on the graphic is because it's merely an image. [25:39.920 --> 25:45.080] And it would have to... I mean, there are so many different graphics out there that even if it had, you know, like... [25:45.080 --> 25:48.360] And fonts, which is why they're putting it in a graphic in the first place. [25:48.360 --> 25:50.200] Oh, well, that's not fancy enough. [25:50.260 --> 25:51.360] We can't just use Helvetica. [25:54.780 --> 25:55.300] Yes? [25:59.020 --> 26:11.220] Although a lot of people up here don't like regulation, it seems to be a good point here for possible people starting some types of... [26:11.220 --> 26:13.960] Well, standards is something else again. [26:14.190 --> 26:14.780] Well, yeah. [26:14.780 --> 26:18.160] Not regulation, but standards. [26:19.080 --> 26:24.060] And, I mean, there are certain lobbying groups. [26:24.460 --> 26:27.280] I don't know if people know about the AOL lawsuit. [26:29.710 --> 26:35.840] One of the blind consumer groups is suing AOL because it doesn't have any underlying text. [26:36.360 --> 26:40.720] So there's no way that blind parents can come in and monitor what their kids are looking at. [26:42.080 --> 26:44.300] And it comes under the American with Disabilities Act. [26:45.670 --> 26:47.160] But it doesn't matter. [26:47.380 --> 26:50.690] It's just...it's pretty insignificant. [26:51.100 --> 27:01.000] And there has to be more behind it than just us because we're not...people are willing to forego our market. [27:02.720 --> 27:04.920] Because, obviously, the majority of people can see. [27:05.190 --> 27:07.960] So they don't care. [27:09.540 --> 27:14.260] And, of course, if a company doesn't like the standards that are coming down from one standards agency, they'll just generate their own. [27:14.760 --> 27:16.840] God so loves standards that he made so many of them. [27:17.060 --> 27:18.740] There is something called Bobby. [27:19.800 --> 27:25.740] And Bobby is a...that's okay, you're allowed. [27:27.300 --> 27:31.260] A thing you can run your web code through to see if it's accessible. [27:34.620 --> 27:42.190] And, unfortunately, it's not...it's buried somewhere on some site at the moment. [27:42.400 --> 27:47.760] But, obviously, if you browse for it, you can find it. [27:47.980 --> 27:51.040] And it really is very strict. [27:51.380 --> 27:56.190] And it'll go through and tell you all the stuff your site is and isn't doing. [27:56.190 --> 28:00.100] It's based on a British policeman. [28:00.400 --> 28:01.020] So that's why. [28:01.190 --> 28:02.160] That's why it's called Bobby. [28:02.950 --> 28:07.880] A name for Sir Robert Peel who formed the Metropolitan Police back in the 19th century. [28:08.560 --> 28:09.800] That's why they're called Bobby's. [28:09.960 --> 28:10.040] Yes. [28:10.220 --> 28:11.880] Just an HTML validator? [28:13.410 --> 28:18.640] Basically an HTML validator, but is looking for total accessibility as well. [28:19.520 --> 28:20.660] Leaning that way. [28:21.340 --> 28:21.420] Yeah. [28:22.000 --> 28:27.190] And it doesn't spit out...it doesn't yell at you if you have graphics, but it does yell at you if you have no other alternative. [28:29.500 --> 28:35.720] So, while I don't have a link to that page yet, give me about a week to get home and throw something up. [28:35.880 --> 28:39.690] That'll be at spaceyideas.com slash cheshire. [28:40.190 --> 28:49.120] Spacey's S-P-A-C-E-Y ideas dot com slash cheshire, C-H-E-S-H-I-R-E. [28:49.720 --> 28:50.960] That's my home page. [28:51.920 --> 28:56.980] And there you'll find a link to the brand new AT&T Racing Fan Club. [28:57.690 --> 29:00.960] Well, they won't let you join the telephone pioneers of America. [29:01.320 --> 29:08.210] So, we'll have this fan club to follow the exploits of the number 20 Pontiac on the Bush Grand National Series sponsored by AT&T. [29:08.420 --> 29:12.900] As I said to him, AT&T and fan club do not go in the same sentence as far as I'm concerned. [29:17.210 --> 29:18.910] So, yes question? [29:27.760 --> 29:31.480] Websites that present their information in the bulk as PDF files. [29:31.740 --> 29:32.840] What are your comments on that? [29:34.920 --> 29:37.440] I've dealt with it and I'm trying to remember what it looks like. [29:40.060 --> 29:41.780] Do you have Adobe Reader on your machine? [29:42.360 --> 29:42.580] No. [29:42.580 --> 29:43.940] Well, then. [29:46.500 --> 30:05.040] I know that when the concept of e-text first came out, that was, when it first came out, that was people who had the book in print hacking in every single word to text files. [30:05.640 --> 30:08.260] Yeah, that was, that was what that meant. [30:09.420 --> 30:10.160] Free scanner. [30:12.320 --> 30:20.980] And now all these, now that, you know, suddenly excited people have gotten the idea, they got the palm tops and they can, you know, download stuff and read it while they're waiting in line of movies. [30:22.600 --> 30:24.760] They've got now those special formats. [30:24.980 --> 30:26.820] And it's defeated the whole purpose for us. [30:27.940 --> 30:30.760] You know, you don't have the thing, you don't, you don't read it. [30:31.060 --> 30:36.320] I'm actually, this is embarrassing to say, but I'm actually using, um, DOS. [30:36.600 --> 30:37.380] Remember DOS? [30:39.140 --> 30:39.660] That's okay. [30:39.760 --> 30:44.420] I called my ISP the other day for help and, and I said that and they said, what's DOS? [30:47.660 --> 30:50.740] And, you know, well, what do you click on to get to us? [30:51.800 --> 30:57.120] You move your mouse and what type, you know, communications program, you see? [30:57.120 --> 31:03.260] And, and the whole, the whole idea of remote even is just boring, you know, remote host, shell account. [31:03.900 --> 31:07.960] Um, but yeah, that, that's what happens with the PDF files. [31:08.100 --> 31:10.100] It's just, it's, it's just inaccessible. [31:10.240 --> 31:11.720] It just, you know, I don't have the thing. [31:12.820 --> 31:18.820] Um, seems like a lot of the stuff is, is specifically linked to, uh, like Microsoft Word or, or something. [31:18.820 --> 31:21.200] Um, I don't know. [31:21.520 --> 31:25.320] I attack Windows every other, every couple of weeks saying, I'm going to learn this. [31:25.400 --> 31:25.940] I really am. [31:26.500 --> 31:34.000] And end up in, uh, a loop that, that just before you guys think Windows crashes for sighted people. [31:34.240 --> 31:37.820] The first thing to go when I mess something up is the speech. [31:38.060 --> 31:39.380] The first thing to go. [31:39.480 --> 31:43.660] It's not that great in the first place, but that's the first thing I could, that's the first thing I rep. [31:43.660 --> 31:51.040] So all I can do at that point is, uh, hit keys and, uh, lots of tab keys and even resort to using the mouse. [31:51.220 --> 31:56.160] Even though I have no idea what, uh, what is happening. [31:56.360 --> 31:59.620] I just click on stuff and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. [31:59.940 --> 32:01.500] So it's a sidetrack. [32:02.640 --> 32:03.160] Yes. [32:03.420 --> 32:09.780] Um, the design of Windows, who insist on having graphic intensive sites. [32:10.220 --> 32:13.520] Do you suggest, um, also developing like a textile site? [32:13.980 --> 32:15.200] What are your suggestions on that? [32:15.200 --> 32:17.360] Uh, yes, it's just a, a text only site. [32:17.560 --> 32:24.920] Uh, but for the most part, be certain that any graphics which, uh, contain useful information are described in alt text. [32:25.140 --> 32:31.940] Well also, um, yeah, um, like Amazon and stuff like that. [32:32.620 --> 32:38.520] You know, round about, um, the 257th item on the menu. [32:39.080 --> 32:41.120] Buried at the bottom says text only. [32:41.440 --> 32:44.440] So, yeah, you can, you can always have that option. [32:44.680 --> 32:47.080] Then people who want it can search for text. [32:47.920 --> 32:49.120] Keep in mind too. [32:50.040 --> 32:50.560] Pardon? [32:50.800 --> 32:52.520] On the opening page. [32:52.520 --> 32:53.080] Oh, yeah, nice. [32:53.520 --> 32:54.460] But, uh, yeah. [32:54.620 --> 33:01.100] If, uh, put at the very bottom, one of your last links, uh, font size equals minus five. [33:01.660 --> 33:04.000] Because on links, everything is the same size anyway. [33:04.400 --> 33:04.760] It doesn't look. [33:04.900 --> 33:06.840] But your graphic people probably won't notice it. [33:07.160 --> 33:10.740] We can hit the number, uh, one to go to the bottom of the page. [33:10.740 --> 33:14.520] And then it's highlighted, our last link is then becomes highlighted. [33:14.820 --> 33:16.180] That becomes the text only link. [33:16.440 --> 33:17.960] Boom, we're off to text only. [33:18.360 --> 33:19.360] What a concept. [33:32.340 --> 33:33.680] It doesn't matter. [33:33.920 --> 33:34.600] It doesn't matter. [33:34.600 --> 33:35.140] It really doesn't matter. [33:35.480 --> 33:37.120] Um, some people like it. [33:37.220 --> 33:39.020] I mean, that's, that doesn't matter at all. [33:39.320 --> 33:43.320] Um, however, you wanna design it is, is how you design it. [33:43.320 --> 34:02.500] And I always say, and this is just a preference, this has nothing to do with vision, that if you are doing anything like an informational thing, I don't know, something you want people to read, always have the option of downloading it. [34:02.660 --> 34:03.560] Which you always do. [34:04.520 --> 34:05.540] If you know what you're doing. [34:05.980 --> 34:11.020] But as far as how you organize it, that's totally up to you. [34:13.220 --> 34:13.860] Yes? [34:33.380 --> 34:34.900] For the purpose of what? [34:35.940 --> 34:36.940] Tool tips. [34:37.220 --> 34:37.720] Oh, man. [34:38.080 --> 34:38.400] Right. [34:39.900 --> 34:40.540] Yes? [34:40.920 --> 34:44.380] What webpages would you currently put as examples? [34:44.880 --> 34:46.060] For good or bad? [34:47.340 --> 34:47.680] What? [34:48.000 --> 34:49.020] Like attrition or water. [34:50.480 --> 34:51.640] I don't know that one. [34:55.080 --> 34:55.720] Well... [34:55.720 --> 34:59.040] I've given you my worst example was coca-cola.co.uk. [34:59.460 --> 35:01.700] You know, if you haven't got chocolate, go away, kid. [35:01.860 --> 35:05.760] You want to see a good example, go to seeingeye.org. [35:07.500 --> 35:08.840] That's the dog school. [35:09.040 --> 35:12.000] And for some reason, they like theirs in text. [35:14.240 --> 35:18.020] But they have some graphics on it, you know, because the families come in and look at that site. [35:18.220 --> 35:18.340] Yeah. [35:19.420 --> 35:22.560] And so they have a site which is totally accessible. [35:22.880 --> 35:23.800] That would be a good example. [35:24.000 --> 35:24.160] Yeah. [35:24.360 --> 35:25.060] We're having... [35:26.420 --> 35:30.920] I'm trying to get a site up and running now for another guide dog users group. [35:30.920 --> 35:32.480] And we're going to have lots of pictures. [35:32.960 --> 35:37.840] But we're going to put them somewhere where you don't have to trip over them when you first walk in. [35:38.620 --> 35:40.040] You know, if it's an option. [35:40.340 --> 35:42.380] I mean, that's what it's all about is options. [35:42.700 --> 35:46.860] Yeah, if a corporation wants graphic intensive, you know, you give the boss what they want. [35:47.300 --> 35:49.780] You know, the customer's always right and all that stuff. [35:50.000 --> 35:57.140] But, you know, bury it somewhere in case the secretary happens to untext. [36:01.630 --> 36:02.450] Other questions? [36:03.610 --> 36:04.050] Yes. [36:04.730 --> 36:05.170] I'm [36:12.510 --> 36:15.630] developing really hard downloading schemes. [36:16.370 --> 36:19.250] People are creating different downloading schemes. [36:19.450 --> 36:19.510] Yes. [36:20.710 --> 36:28.490] I tried downloading the new JDK, JDK2, and it took a half an hour to figure out how to download it. [36:28.510 --> 36:29.010] Well, yeah. [36:29.290 --> 36:30.430] I tried doing that without sight. [36:31.030 --> 36:35.010] I mean, you know, and I feel really stupid when it's obvious and I can't figure it out. [36:35.770 --> 36:39.170] But then, you know, I ended up going through a lot of different web pages. [36:40.350 --> 36:44.890] And then, the final web page that allows me to download it is my web browser. [36:45.450 --> 36:45.870] Yeah. [36:46.890 --> 36:48.950] Yeah, this is just bad design. [36:49.310 --> 36:55.370] You know, some people have bug up their ass that you've got to jump through their hoops if you want to get their stuff. [36:55.370 --> 36:57.850] And it's not user friendly. [36:58.890 --> 37:06.050] And when you have users who have difficulties in the first place, it doesn't help at all. [37:06.050 --> 37:11.030] And then, I downloaded the document to my hard drive to print the source. [37:11.250 --> 37:11.650] Yeah. [37:11.870 --> 37:12.970] And it went after the URL about it [37:19.790 --> 37:20.650] What does it do? [37:21.250 --> 37:24.550] So, you type that list in the directory and there's nothing there, no directory of this thing. [37:24.550 --> 37:25.030] I'm kidding. [37:25.290 --> 37:26.290] No directory, so... [37:31.100 --> 37:33.440] The phone names will be on the source page. [37:36.120 --> 37:36.480] Yeah. [37:38.120 --> 37:38.480] Yeah. [37:38.660 --> 37:40.400] Yeah, but you know, if you have time to go look at the source. [37:40.900 --> 37:41.260] Yeah. [37:42.280 --> 37:44.560] I think they have... [37:59.030 --> 38:01.290] I don't even know why that would be, I mean, you know. [38:01.710 --> 38:06.130] Getting back to the PDF question, I realize we didn't really cover your question. [38:07.050 --> 38:16.730] It is possible to bring in a PDF file and sometimes you can highlight the text, copy it out and put it into like a notepad file or something. [38:17.390 --> 38:20.210] It would be possible to deal with the text portion. [38:20.430 --> 38:27.810] But remember why a company is using a PDF file in the first place, is they don't want people to just mess up the way they want their content displayed. [38:28.170 --> 38:28.350] Yeah. [38:28.490 --> 38:34.990] That's why they use a very expensive program to prepare a file in a format that anyone can read with a free reader. [38:36.650 --> 38:40.090] That's really the concept behind using PDF or portable document files. [38:40.370 --> 38:41.850] Anybody, yeah, anybody who is using Windows. [38:42.190 --> 38:44.030] Anyone who is using Windows, yes, this is true. [38:44.270 --> 38:44.670] Or Mac. [38:45.070 --> 38:51.170] But, if you are going to get them out to a community that really can't handle Windows or Macs, then... [38:51.170 --> 38:52.870] Well, we can handle it, we just don't like to. [38:53.130 --> 38:53.370] Right. [38:54.850 --> 39:02.850] There are software packages that are written, but, you know, Windows inherently is, you know, picture on the cave wall, point and grunt. [39:02.850 --> 39:05.350] That's, you know, what it's all about as far as I'm concerned. [39:05.530 --> 39:14.750] So, it's a very visual medium and no matter what you do to it, you can have the finest designers in the world, but no matter what you do to that, it's always going to be visual. [39:15.030 --> 39:15.290] So, yeah. [39:15.470 --> 39:17.750] Other last comments before I go into shameless commerce mode? [39:20.870 --> 39:25.970] Okay, I'm going to just briefly mention that I've got a book, which I hold in my hand here on this floppy disk. [39:26.750 --> 39:34.570] Just a collection of web pages from three or four of my various websites that I've compiled and I'll be hawking them for ten bucks a throw so I can afford airfare home. [39:36.250 --> 39:37.470] It's a PDF file, right? [39:38.790 --> 39:39.750] Actually, close. [39:39.930 --> 39:41.170] It's all in HTML. [39:41.950 --> 39:45.590] And I have to beat about the head and shoulders profusely over this. [39:45.810 --> 39:49.250] The next version will have all text files as well. [39:49.690 --> 39:52.430] But for now, you'll have to suffer through HTML. [39:52.890 --> 39:54.670] All the images are in an images directory. [39:54.890 --> 39:57.470] You can go floating through those and look at them separately. [39:58.890 --> 40:00.790] All tags throughout, I guarantee. [40:03.070 --> 40:04.670] And please pick them up. [40:04.950 --> 40:06.310] Come see me after the talk. [40:06.910 --> 40:07.170] Thank you. [40:08.090 --> 40:09.030] Any other questions? [40:09.230 --> 40:09.630] One last? [40:11.430 --> 40:11.910] Okay. [40:12.290 --> 40:12.750] Thank you very much. [40:12.810 --> 40:12.950] Thanks.