[00:43.540 --> 00:45.120]  Is Randy Cohen in the house?
[00:46.680 --> 00:47.100]  Alright.
[00:49.060 --> 01:00.220]  Jello Biafra is supposed to be here at some point, but he was a little late to his own keynote, so... This is the Napster panel.
[01:00.920 --> 01:02.620]  Our moderator is Glenn Otis-Brown.
[01:02.720 --> 01:03.500]  I'll let him take it over.
[01:04.480 --> 01:04.920]  Thanks.
[01:06.200 --> 01:07.340]  Yeah, my name is Glenn Brown.
[01:08.240 --> 01:10.760]  I guess Napster is a pretty timely issue right now.
[01:11.480 --> 01:13.220]  At least legally, it's at a big crossroads.
[01:13.340 --> 01:26.800]  We just had the big Senate Judiciary hearings on Tuesday in front of Orrin Hatch and Metallica showed up and Roger McGuinn of the Byrd showed up along with the Napster executives and some people from the recording industry, the RIAA.
[01:28.860 --> 01:29.680]  I'm here, I guess.
[01:29.780 --> 01:30.860]  I'm not really a tech person.
[01:31.620 --> 01:32.360]  I'm a lawyer.
[01:32.460 --> 01:33.540]  I just graduated from law school.
[01:34.380 --> 01:41.140]  And I did some research for a place called the Berkman Center for Internet Society at Harvard Law School.
[01:41.320 --> 01:42.860]  We put on a conference on MP3.
[01:43.000 --> 01:43.360]  It's February.
[01:43.680 --> 01:52.960]  And if you're interested in any kind of open source, how it relates to law, basic technology and law issues, you might want to check out their site.
[01:53.150 --> 01:55.380]  It's cyber.law.harvard.edu if you're interested.
[01:55.380 --> 02:04.760]  Anyway, today we're just going to talk about not just the legal stuff, I guess, just more big picture, but in general, you know, what can the law do in this situation?
[02:04.760 --> 02:05.930]  If anything, who should it help?
[02:06.020 --> 02:07.150]  Should it be more pro-consumer?
[02:07.280 --> 02:10.180]  Should it be pro-listener or pro-artist?
[02:10.990 --> 02:15.960]  And kind of a background question is, is music different in this context?
[02:15.980 --> 02:19.360]  Is it different from other kinds of art based on the web?
[02:21.340 --> 02:24.210]  So without further ado, I guess we'll just have the panelists introduce themselves.
[02:24.360 --> 02:26.430]  We'll start here with Siva on my left.
[02:26.620 --> 02:26.720]  Hi.
[02:27.520 --> 02:29.120]  I'm Siva Badianathan.
[02:29.300 --> 02:33.150]  I teach in the Department of Culture and Communication at New York University.
[02:34.580 --> 02:45.880]  And I'm basically a cultural historian, which means I've dealt with a whole lot of pieces of paper and not that many compressed electronic files until recently.
[02:46.740 --> 02:59.100]  And I had been working on a history of copyright for a number of years, only to find that the very end of my book sort of exploded into the public consciousness at just the wrong time because I'm not yet done with the book.
[02:59.520 --> 03:00.820]  But that's the way these things go.
[03:01.620 --> 03:13.720]  So all of a sudden, I find myself having to talk about MP3 and Napster in terms of its effect on the copyright system, in terms of its effect on creativity, commerce, and democracy.
[03:14.300 --> 03:18.920]  And so I'm sort of thrilled with the opportunity and the attention, but I'm also sort of overwhelmed by the whole thing.
[03:18.920 --> 03:25.000]  And so if at any point I seem like a deer caught in headlights, it's because these are really bright headlights.
[03:25.480 --> 03:28.620]  I'm also not that adept a tech person.
[03:29.500 --> 03:31.900]  I know the culture more than the technology.
[03:32.180 --> 03:34.160]  So that's hopefully what I will add.
[03:34.620 --> 03:35.520]  Glenn here knows the law.
[03:35.840 --> 03:37.920]  And we'll see what else we got going on.
[03:40.340 --> 03:41.500]  I'm Lazlow.
[03:41.890 --> 03:45.720]  I've worked in radio for, I guess, about eight years.
[03:46.140 --> 03:53.420]  And I currently host a syndicated radio feature tech news update that's on about 300 stations nationwide.
[03:54.620 --> 04:02.800]  I'm a little tech blurb in the news report since news reports are about 10 seconds long these days.
[04:06.020 --> 04:08.900]  I really don't think that this is a tech issue anymore in terms of...
[04:09.620 --> 04:11.800]  I mean, these guys are saying, you know, I'm not really a tech person.
[04:12.020 --> 04:17.940]  I don't think it's about being technically astute or whatever.
[04:18.100 --> 04:22.260]  Because if you're bipedal, you can download Napster.
[04:23.980 --> 04:26.580]  Unless you work for a university that won't let you.
[04:26.960 --> 04:27.340]  Right.
[04:27.680 --> 04:39.480]  And since it is so easy, I think it's kind of grown into a bigger issue than, oh, this is just tech geeks.
[04:40.820 --> 04:45.500]  But we also have some music artists here, which I'm excited about.
[04:45.520 --> 04:51.900]  Because a lot of the pro issues, people say, well, this is going to really help the small guys out.
[04:51.960 --> 04:55.100]  But as Jello was saying today, is that really happening?
[04:56.400 --> 04:58.100]  So, turn it over to these guys.
[04:59.300 --> 05:00.440]  I'm James Hanna.
[05:00.640 --> 05:02.160]  I'm in a band called Data Wave State.
[05:02.960 --> 05:04.300]  We're, as yet, unsigned.
[05:04.980 --> 05:13.920]  So, basically, I'd say 75% of our distribution is through the web, using our webpage and mp3.com.
[05:15.230 --> 05:18.720]  We really don't... I really don't know much about the specific legal issues.
[05:18.720 --> 05:24.080]  But it's definitely had a direct impact on our lives.
[05:25.860 --> 05:27.040]  I'm Keith Hopkin.
[05:27.040 --> 05:29.120]  I'm also in the same band, Data Wave State.
[05:30.460 --> 05:34.820]  We've been playing together for probably six years around the area.
[05:34.820 --> 05:46.720]  And definitely setting up the website and allowing people to download our music for free has definitely given us many fans from all over the place.
[05:47.460 --> 05:53.340]  Whether or not it's allowed us to sell our own records more is another story.
[05:53.340 --> 05:59.420]  But to us, just people hearing our music and having access to it is good enough for now.
[06:00.440 --> 06:01.540]  And y'all are playing later tonight, right?
[06:02.340 --> 06:06.160]  We should be playing, I believe, 8 or 9 o'clock in that room over there.
[06:07.160 --> 06:07.480]  Alright.
[06:08.180 --> 06:10.520]  So, I guess we'll just start off with some questions for the panelists.
[06:10.640 --> 06:11.680]  We'll start off kind of big picture.
[06:11.940 --> 06:15.920]  And maybe later we'll get into a little more of the kind of nuts and bolts of the legal stuff.
[06:15.920 --> 06:20.460]  But I'll start off by asking Siva, do you think Napster is a good thing generally?
[06:20.860 --> 06:23.020]  And is it only good for consumers?
[06:23.040 --> 06:24.080]  Is it also good for artists?
[06:25.280 --> 06:27.320]  Who is it bad for, do you think?
[06:27.840 --> 06:33.900]  Well, I think Napster as a company would be almost irrelevant if it weren't for this court case.
[06:34.220 --> 06:36.420]  In the sense that we don't need it anymore.
[06:36.720 --> 06:43.580]  I mean, there are enough other file sharing programs that work better, that will continue to evolve and get better.
[06:45.040 --> 06:48.760]  Or decentralized and not subject to legal action.
[06:49.880 --> 06:55.860]  But yeah, I think this is an amazing transformative moment for world culture and world music.
[06:56.260 --> 07:01.100]  It gives people an opportunity to hear stuff they could never hear anywhere else.
[07:01.700 --> 07:04.200]  With an ease never before imagined.
[07:04.800 --> 07:09.660]  And that's only going to be good for the virtue of sharing.
[07:09.860 --> 07:13.040]  Which, you know, from elementary school we should have learned is a very important thing.
[07:13.960 --> 07:15.020]  And a very valuable thing.
[07:15.120 --> 07:16.320]  Now, here's something to keep in mind.
[07:18.400 --> 07:31.740]  A lot of this attention about Napster as a company, and whether or not this whole thing is going to be good for artists or bad for artists, or good for labels or bad for labels, ignores the fact that this is a global phenomenon.
[07:31.740 --> 07:40.680]  And a CD bought in a legitimate store in Bombay, India costs about 200 rupees.
[07:41.220 --> 07:45.080]  A cab driver in India makes about 100 rupees a week.
[07:45.900 --> 07:51.920]  There's no way that a cab driver in India can justify buying and accumulating a CD collection.
[07:52.320 --> 07:56.060]  There's no way that that cab driver can ever hear Metallica.
[07:56.680 --> 08:12.720]  But if that cab driver happens to have access to a computer, happens to have access to MP3 players, and electronic technology is a lot more affordable in India than the actual items, then this cab driver has an opportunity to hear music that he would never hear anywhere else.
[08:13.040 --> 08:21.820]  And so, it's too early to tell the extent of the positive externalities of this, but there are going to be some serious ones.
[08:22.740 --> 08:26.780]  Okay, so we definitely know, we hear it's good for listeners, but what about artists, Lesley?
[08:26.840 --> 08:27.240]  What do you think?
[08:27.360 --> 08:28.340]  Is it good for all artists?
[08:28.500 --> 08:32.420]  Why is it that we have the Artists Against Privacy putting out full-page ads?
[08:32.620 --> 08:34.480]  I mean, Artists Against Piracy, sorry.
[08:36.760 --> 08:45.760]  Metallica's Against Privacy, but putting out full-page ads in major newspapers, while we have people like Chuck D basically advocating MP3 all the way.
[08:46.190 --> 08:47.020]  It's really weird.
[08:47.120 --> 09:03.210]  Several weeks, I've been working on putting this panel together for weeks, and I contacted the RIAA, which I've learned a lot about this company, or organization rather, that they are basically the sister and or brother of the MPAA.
[09:03.460 --> 09:04.620]  It's the same concept.
[09:06.080 --> 09:19.320]  And as these guys can tell you, and people that I talked to at Yale and Harvard, and in terms of public discussion, the RIAA jumps out of panels at the last moment.
[09:19.520 --> 09:20.880]  They wouldn't return my calls.
[09:21.180 --> 09:25.980]  I started getting really kind of vicious about it, and just calling every hour on the hour.
[09:27.380 --> 09:36.480]  And luckily, since I've worked in radio, I've got friends that gave me people's direct phone numbers at the RIAA, so that made them really happy.
[09:38.280 --> 09:50.000]  But, you know, even up until Thursday, they just really don't want to talk about this, because part of me wonders if they think that they're wrong, if they know that they're wrong.
[09:52.040 --> 10:02.080]  In terms of the artists, you'll notice that the artists that are anti-MP3, in a lot of ways, are the ones that are big enough to negotiate their contracts.
[10:02.380 --> 10:08.640]  I have had major, big bands come by the radio station to do an on-air thing.
[10:09.020 --> 10:15.340]  You know, they've got an album that's selling well, and I'll be talking to them and saying, you know, it's really great, you know, you guys kind of came out of nowhere.
[10:15.880 --> 10:16.580]  How's it going?
[10:16.760 --> 10:20.660]  And this guy looked at me straight in the face and said, dude, I'm on food stamps.
[10:21.760 --> 10:22.780]  And he was serious.
[10:23.600 --> 10:28.360]  And he actually had a copy of his contract on him, and showed it to me.
[10:29.080 --> 10:40.860]  And from just talking to these guys, you know, even if they have a huge album that sells well, most cases are not seeing hardly any of that money.
[10:43.310 --> 10:48.780]  I've seen a lot of record contracts, and having 10% is huge.
[10:49.320 --> 10:51.460]  That is a huge, huge deal.
[10:51.460 --> 10:54.420]  Most of the time, it comes down to 4%, 5%.
[10:54.420 --> 11:04.040]  So that's why you see the Madonnas and the Metallicas out there, because they have enough pull with their... and they've negotiated new contracts where they get 25%, or they get 40%.
[11:04.040 --> 11:06.560]  So of course, they're more upset about it.
[11:08.420 --> 11:14.740]  But then you have guys that are unsigned, that are like, whatever, get this stuff out there, get me signed.
[11:17.180 --> 11:17.660]  Great.
[11:18.140 --> 11:20.260]  And James and Keith, I'd like to hear from you all.
[11:20.560 --> 11:24.400]  How... or is MP3 helping you all stay off of food stamps?
[11:24.560 --> 11:25.360]  And how it's...
[11:26.240 --> 11:30.980]  Well, as far as... we don't really... we haven't actually made any money.
[11:31.160 --> 11:36.100]  Any money that we get from it just goes into, like, flyering, producing more CDs.
[11:36.100 --> 11:42.440]  I mean, we're not selling, like, thousands of records or anything like that, but it is allowing us to generate fans.
[11:42.600 --> 11:46.680]  I mean, people write us from, like, Singapore and Italy and South America.
[11:47.260 --> 11:50.760]  And it's something we can never do if we weren't on a label, basically.
[11:52.740 --> 11:53.180]  Right.
[11:53.360 --> 11:53.580]  Okay.
[11:53.820 --> 11:56.020]  We're just now joined by Jello Biafra, who just sat in here.
[11:58.080 --> 12:01.660]  If you'd like to start off by saying anything, go ahead, but I guess we can start off...
[12:01.660 --> 12:11.260]  I'm not sure quite where we are in this, because I got a phone call saying Napster's panel will start shortly, and then I got here, and you started very shortly.
[12:11.420 --> 12:11.820]  I'm sorry.
[12:12.060 --> 12:12.500]  That's all right.
[12:13.380 --> 12:16.500]  I guess we can just ask you where you stand on Napster.
[12:16.540 --> 12:18.480]  Do you think it's a good thing for artists in general?
[12:18.980 --> 12:23.760]  As I said earlier today, I have not made up my mind at all.
[12:23.760 --> 12:45.200]  What I want to get away from is this black and white vision that Napster is the big, bad, major labels who rip off everyone they can, from the artist clear down to the fan, to some of their own employees, in some cases, versus the little guy who just wants to check out some music for free.
[12:45.840 --> 12:48.900]  There's a lot in between there, too.
[12:49.700 --> 12:52.160]  I'm not against MP3.
[12:52.500 --> 13:04.440]  I mean, the majors seem to be terrified of it because they don't understand it, and it didn't fit into their plans to introduce yet another CD format to buy your collection yet again.
[13:04.760 --> 13:08.500]  And this time it would go through six speakers instead of two.
[13:08.680 --> 13:10.080]  Remember, quad stereo?
[13:13.150 --> 13:23.360]  Anyway, to me, it seems like MP3 would be no more damaging to music, big and small, than video rental was to the film industry.
[13:23.680 --> 13:37.420]  And if you recall, the MPAA, who is suing the organizer of this convention, and the trial starts Monday, originally tried to stop the rental of videos and said it would be the end of the film industry.
[13:37.420 --> 13:40.400]  And instead, it seems to have doubled their incomes.
[13:40.760 --> 13:44.220]  So MP3, I don't feel too threatened by.
[13:44.360 --> 13:48.820]  To me, it's weird that people wouldn't be interested in hard goods.
[13:48.840 --> 13:56.580]  But maybe I'm just stuck in that mindset because I'm a record collector and have been since I was about 13 or 14.
[13:56.580 --> 14:10.500]  And so, but then, when you get to Napster, it blurs because it's not just Metallica and Dr. Dre versus kids in dorm rooms.
[14:10.740 --> 14:16.700]  Not everybody who makes music makes as much money as Metallica or Dr. Dre.
[14:16.700 --> 14:33.600]  The problem is there's many, many other people who'd like to be able to even raise enough money to record another album or another song, let alone quit their job that they hate, as much as most of us hate our jobs, and can't because they can't make any money on their music.
[14:33.880 --> 14:42.580]  And they're the ones, including myself, I might add, who may, I'm not sure, but may stand to get hurt the worst by this.
[14:42.580 --> 14:50.500]  One friend of mine who I've known since about seventh grade, he was such a gifted guitarist, he could play Hendrix at age 12.
[14:50.980 --> 14:58.580]  And eventually evolved into prog rock and new agey stuff and now world fusion music where he's gotten interesting again.
[14:58.740 --> 15:03.420]  But anyway, he's always done his own thing, strictly to his own vision.
[15:03.860 --> 15:07.960]  Does not have any jackass at a major telling him what to do.
[15:07.960 --> 15:11.400]  The price he pays is he's scared shitless.
[15:11.560 --> 15:18.700]  He may be kicked out of the rent control apartment he's had for almost 20 years because he can't afford to pay the bills anymore.
[15:18.820 --> 15:32.340]  So he's put out a website for his band ancientfuture.com and says for every 900 hits that website gets, one person actually buys a CD from him.
[15:32.340 --> 15:39.420]  And he is quite scared of Napster whereby he might even lose that extra one hit out of 900.
[15:39.660 --> 15:40.040]  I don't know.
[15:40.180 --> 15:41.740]  I don't think it's that drastic.
[15:42.320 --> 15:53.340]  But maybe part of the problem is that the major labels are so damn greedy that Sony originally announced, okay, okay, we'll make some stuff available for downloading.
[15:53.340 --> 16:05.320]  50 songs in our vast catalog, most of which stinks, will be available to download on MP3 for a generous $3.49 a song.
[16:05.560 --> 16:10.420]  You multiply that by about 10 songs on a CD or 15, what's that?
[16:10.580 --> 16:17.400]  The virtual equivalent of a $35 to $50 CD when you could go buy it much cheaper at the store.
[16:17.400 --> 16:19.460]  They don't get it, in other words.
[16:20.340 --> 16:24.620]  And everything I've ever done is downloadable through MP3.
[16:24.820 --> 16:32.640]  Some of it's free, the rest I think is like $1.14 a track or something, which is less than the price of a 7-inch single.
[16:32.840 --> 16:35.140]  So I think maybe driving the price down will help.
[16:35.360 --> 16:47.680]  I've also been told by Napster enthusiasts that some don't mind paying if they know they're supporting somebody who needs the money and the price is a little bit more reasonable than $3.49 a song.
[16:48.500 --> 17:03.000]  But a lot of them don't, so I don't know what the solution to that is, except to ask people to think of the artists and for the artists who aren't rolling in Metallica's money, who are just trying to scrape by.
[17:03.000 --> 17:06.300]  In my case, I got into punk so early, I never finished college.
[17:06.300 --> 17:07.420]  I only went for two months.
[17:07.560 --> 17:10.940]  And if I lose my livelihood, I'm unemployable.
[17:12.300 --> 17:18.040]  Well, I think it's yet to be seen whether people do or don't want hard goods.
[17:18.400 --> 17:31.060]  And there's a lot of potential for this whole technology being really good for the sale of hard goods, perhaps in different distribution methods, perhaps definitely for a different price structure.
[17:31.060 --> 17:55.800]  If you look at the report that Professor Fader from University of Pennsylvania Business School submitted, along with the filings that Napster filed, I guess it was two weeks ago, he very clearly argues that a good number of Napster users are using this technology the best possible way for the music industry.
[17:55.800 --> 17:58.910]  Everybody knows that CD sales were up this year versus last year.
[17:59.320 --> 18:05.010]  The most frequent number we hear is about 8% when you compare the first quarter of this year compared to the first quarter of last year.
[18:05.320 --> 18:10.120]  So no one knows where this illusionary loss is coming from.
[18:11.300 --> 18:20.800]  And the survey that Fader did showed that most of the people he talked to use Napster to decide whether to buy a CD and which CDs to buy.
[18:20.800 --> 18:23.730]  So they're becoming more educated consumers, better consumers.
[18:23.910 --> 18:27.620]  So if you believe Fader, this can only be good for the sale of hard goods.
[18:27.770 --> 18:32.750]  And it might even be really good for major labels, if they would stop panicking about it.
[18:32.950 --> 18:38.490]  Now, if you listen to Chuck D, Chuck D says this is going to be the death of major labels, and he's very happy about that.
[18:38.750 --> 18:49.320]  And he actually is trying to represent the interests of emerging artists, artists who can't get on radio, artists who can't get on Warner Brothers records.
[18:49.930 --> 18:53.100]  And if you follow his business model, it might be good.
[18:53.360 --> 19:00.190]  Chances are, if Napster survives as a company, the result is going to be somewhere in between these two things.
[19:00.380 --> 19:06.970]  Some artists are going to be able to figure out a business model, a way to make a living without actually producing a piece of plastic.
[19:06.970 --> 19:14.530]  And then other artists are going to have a lot of success putting out a document, which people still appreciate.
[19:14.670 --> 19:15.820]  And people still know that Sgt.
[19:15.860 --> 19:17.950]  Pepper is a document, and Pet Sounds is a document.
[19:18.630 --> 19:22.620]  And Sticky Fingers is a document, even though the zipper doesn't go up and down on the cover of my CD anymore.
[19:23.350 --> 19:24.930]  But, you know, that's an important thing.
[19:25.010 --> 19:26.030]  And people appreciate it.
[19:26.320 --> 19:27.450]  And people value it.
[19:27.560 --> 19:29.100]  They don't want to pay 18 bucks for it.
[19:29.100 --> 19:37.380]  And if the price of CDs would come down to a reasonable point, a whole lot of what we call piracy would probably go away.
[19:38.230 --> 19:42.340]  The MP3 movement is a rational revolt of passionate fans.
[19:42.490 --> 19:43.950]  But it is entirely rational.
[19:45.270 --> 19:50.270]  People aren't raiding a record store with a broken window.
[19:50.470 --> 19:53.030]  They're actually becoming better consumers.
[19:53.290 --> 19:56.170]  So we'll see how this all breaks out in terms of dollars.
[19:56.790 --> 19:58.270]  But music is still going to be music.
[19:58.470 --> 20:00.190]  And people are still going to pay for it some way.
[20:00.620 --> 20:02.410]  The rich might not be as rich as they are now.
[20:02.670 --> 20:07.770]  But hopefully, the low end of the income stream gets a little bit better known.
[20:10.210 --> 20:12.640]  Steve, you've got an article coming out in The Nation, right?
[20:12.750 --> 20:14.250]  Is that already out or is it coming out soon?
[20:14.470 --> 20:14.770]  Monday.
[20:15.210 --> 20:15.990]  It's online now.
[20:16.100 --> 20:16.600]  Online now.
[20:16.710 --> 20:22.430]  TheNation.com Anyway, you write that a leaky copyright system works best.
[20:22.620 --> 20:24.490]  Do you think... is copyright law relevant here?
[20:24.640 --> 20:25.580]  Is there a role for it?
[20:25.580 --> 20:27.690]  How does it help out the artists and if so?
[20:28.380 --> 20:29.210]  Well, I'll tell you what.
[20:29.450 --> 20:30.510]  It really...
[20:31.410 --> 20:35.970]  It actually has a lot to do with the DeCSS case and the DVD case.
[20:36.120 --> 20:45.530]  Because one of the reasons that the major labels are freaked about the proliferation of MP3 as a format is that they can't put it under wraps.
[20:45.860 --> 20:49.430]  They can't control access to this stuff anymore.
[20:49.770 --> 20:52.770]  And controlling access is one of the things they've been dreaming of for a long time.
[20:52.770 --> 20:54.840]  They hate the fact that you can get a used CD.
[20:55.270 --> 20:57.820]  They hate the fact that you can borrow your friend's CD.
[20:58.080 --> 21:01.140]  They hate the fact that you can check out CDs from libraries.
[21:01.320 --> 21:03.290]  They hate the fact that you can check out books from libraries.
[21:03.470 --> 21:03.800]  Alright?
[21:03.970 --> 21:05.540]  Because these are all losses to them.
[21:05.800 --> 21:10.750]  Their dream is to have a metered system of delivery of any cultural material.
[21:10.750 --> 21:12.290]  That would be great for them.
[21:12.430 --> 21:37.950]  And when they panicked around 1995 through 1997 and screamed to the Clinton administration and screamed to Congress that digitization of cultural products was going to lead to massive piracy, what they were really saying is, this is an opportunity for us to encode all of this stuff in electronic locks and be able to deliver it in streams and meter it.
[21:37.950 --> 21:59.930]  And if everything you paid for were metered, if everything was part of a jukebox that comes into your home, then they not only control every time you look at it and charge for every time you look at something or read something, but they can also get rid of this whole idea of lending or even parody.
[21:59.930 --> 22:04.450]  I mean, they could actually shut you down if you started causing trouble to any of their products.
[22:04.720 --> 22:07.460]  The potential for cultural control is overwhelming.
[22:07.690 --> 22:11.620]  They don't see it that way because, you know, they're not thinking far ahead enough to think about cultural control.
[22:11.620 --> 22:13.720]  What they want is economic control.
[22:14.080 --> 22:16.000]  And they have some very strong arguments for that.
[22:16.620 --> 22:22.060]  So the beautiful thing about Napster and the beautiful thing about DeCSS is it's poking holes in their plan.
[22:22.430 --> 22:36.220]  It pokes holes in their plan of triple wrapping every piece of culture in copyright law, in electronic locks, and in contract law, like click wrap, where you agree to a contract that you haven't even read every time you click to access a particular site.
[22:37.000 --> 22:40.690]  So copyright law is not necessary.
[22:40.910 --> 22:44.020]  The foundation of copyright law is not under attack by this technology.
[22:45.840 --> 22:52.020]  But the plan of big media companies to be able to meter all forms of cultural expression is definitely under attack.
[22:53.190 --> 22:55.080]  I'd like to ask a question for Jello.
[22:55.410 --> 23:03.040]  When you found out that people were consuming your art without paying for it, did it upset you?
[23:04.330 --> 23:08.040]  It's been going on for so long in various forms.
[23:08.300 --> 23:14.280]  I mean, it often can be a bigger problem trying to police that than letting it go.
[23:14.500 --> 23:22.820]  I mean, I was actually amused when I found out Dead Kennedy stuff was being bootlegged behind the Islamic curtain in Indonesia.
[23:22.820 --> 23:29.910]  And the way it was identified as rock music was they put a British flag on the cover of the cassettes.
[23:30.140 --> 23:34.210]  I not only thought it was cool to crack the Islamic curtain, I thought it was funny.
[23:34.560 --> 23:50.240]  And I also knew in the days of communist regimes that were especially repressive in Czechoslovakia, former Soviet Union, East Germany, there was no other way to get my stuff but to swap it on tapes under the secret police's nose.
[23:51.120 --> 23:59.860]  And I think it was Are You Serious who said something to the effect of, there is no... is that on this page or not of my little notes?
[23:59.860 --> 24:01.640]  I don't see it here.
[24:01.840 --> 24:02.960]  Or do I?
[24:03.930 --> 24:04.410]  Um...
[24:05.020 --> 24:09.170]  This is such a good quote, I really want to hunt for it for a second and I can't.
[24:09.360 --> 24:17.520]  And that is that... I'll try and paraphrase that I'm spacing here in the fine Mondo 2000 tradition, I guess.
[24:17.520 --> 24:27.860]  And that is, you know, it is impossible to control the flow of non-physical goods when they can be so easily and infinitely copied.
[24:28.740 --> 24:34.000]  Napster, even if that's cracked down on, something else is going to take its place.
[24:34.280 --> 24:41.120]  Some bored teenager somewhere is gonna find a way to get around all the locks and the toll booths.
[24:41.120 --> 24:42.710]  And so...
[24:43.500 --> 24:45.620]  Again, I don't have an answer for that.
[24:46.220 --> 24:47.670]  But so it's like...
[24:47.670 --> 24:50.840]  I guess it depends when they work with my stuff is whether...
[24:50.840 --> 24:56.740]  I mean, if it's an organized mafia bootleg, I get pissed off.
[24:56.820 --> 25:00.460]  Especially when chain stores stock it who won't stock the real stuff.
[25:00.940 --> 25:03.300]  That was a big problem in the mid-80s.
[25:03.360 --> 25:05.380]  There were all these pirate pressings of Dead Kennedys.
[25:06.220 --> 25:08.320]  Albums coming through the mob overseas.
[25:08.980 --> 25:11.360]  And the stores... and underselling our own.
[25:11.540 --> 25:13.580]  And we were broke at the time.
[25:14.060 --> 25:17.360]  And that upset me a lot because that was going to the wrong people.
[25:17.480 --> 25:21.840]  As far as people trading live tapes and everything else, I didn't care.
[25:21.840 --> 25:24.210]  I traded them, too, in order to get a hold of them.
[25:24.360 --> 25:25.340]  I have a confession.
[25:25.500 --> 25:27.300]  When I was in high school, I had...
[25:27.300 --> 25:29.120]  All my Dead Kennedys albums were on tape from friends.
[25:29.480 --> 25:30.410]  So I didn't give you any money.
[25:30.910 --> 25:32.950]  But free music's always been part of the economy.
[25:33.100 --> 25:34.500]  I mean, that... and that's... and it's true.
[25:34.740 --> 25:35.720]  That's a good point.
[25:35.740 --> 25:42.380]  And in fact, it's part of the way that a lot of emerging artists and emerging genres have built their fan base.
[25:44.000 --> 25:53.340]  Long before anybody signed a punk band to a major label, punk bands got their stuff out there through tapes, through Friends, through communities.
[25:53.740 --> 25:55.670]  And that's exactly what's happening on Napster.
[25:55.860 --> 25:58.320]  Communities of listeners are getting together saying, You've got to hear this.
[25:58.360 --> 25:59.120]  This is really cool.
[25:59.410 --> 26:02.780]  Which is exactly what my friends did with me with Dead Kennedys stuff.
[26:03.100 --> 26:04.840]  And I really should have bought the albums later.
[26:05.100 --> 26:06.120]  But I did buy...
[26:06.120 --> 26:07.450]  Well, there's still time.
[26:07.640 --> 26:08.410]  Well, we'll...
[26:08.410 --> 26:09.000]  Exactly.
[26:09.240 --> 26:10.080]  Give them a hundred bucks now.
[26:10.220 --> 26:21.320]  Right now, I'm six figures in debt because the other former band members sued me in an attempt to steal the copyrights on my songs, which so far they succeeded at trial.
[26:21.320 --> 26:26.300]  And I have to appeal because I wouldn't let them put Holiday in Cambodia in a Levi's commercial.
[26:26.710 --> 26:29.980]  I mean, and this opens a weird, scary question.
[26:30.220 --> 26:45.560]  What if some really noxious corporation like Coors or The Gap takes one of my songs, puts it in a commercial, and says, Well, we downloaded it from Napster, so not only do we not need your permission, we don't have to pay you.
[26:45.710 --> 26:46.640]  Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
[26:46.910 --> 26:52.910]  So your song and your voice is being used to sell a product by a corporation that f*cks with you.
[26:53.640 --> 26:57.720]  So there are examples then when copyright law can help out the little guy in that kind of situation.
[26:57.960 --> 26:58.720]  Is that what you're saying?
[26:59.260 --> 26:59.520]  Yeah.
[26:59.800 --> 27:00.240]  Yeah, okay.
[27:01.380 --> 27:07.430]  Siva, you made an analogy to trading tapes with friends, like meeting once a week and swapping mixtapes, things, that kind of thing.
[27:07.670 --> 27:12.000]  That's pretty much the analogy that the Napster defense brief relies on at least one part of it.
[27:12.170 --> 27:13.820]  Do you really think it's the same kind of thing?
[27:13.950 --> 27:20.280]  Because it seems to me that, I think that's true to a certain degree, but isn't control part of it also?
[27:20.480 --> 27:27.300]  Yeah, some punk bands start out and a lot of hip-hop stuff starts out with people getting their tapes out and giving away for free, but they're doing that by choice, right?
[27:27.430 --> 27:28.560]  Is there a difference there with Napster?
[27:31.390 --> 27:33.880]  Well, the issue of control works on two different levels.
[27:33.880 --> 27:44.860]  One is copyright law does grant creators limited control under limited circumstances for limited time over the duplication of their works.
[27:45.100 --> 27:51.960]  And that's considered a good thing, and it really is, because it does provide an incentive to create and to publish and distribute widely.
[27:52.300 --> 28:02.930]  And so no matter how this whole thing breaks down with MP3s and Napster and Gnutella, there has to be some sort of system that retains that incentive to create.
[28:03.410 --> 28:06.960]  And it's hard to say how that system is going to work.
[28:07.930 --> 28:30.800]  But a lot of this argument over control is based on a really inappropriate romantic attachment to the act of creativity, in the sense of saying, you know, they're playing with my soul, or they're playing with the product of my soul, and there should be a law to restrict that.
[28:30.960 --> 28:47.520]  And we actually don't want too restrictive a copyright system that prevents people from using and sharing and rewriting and commenting on and quoting from previously produced material, because that actually is where cultural creativity comes from.
[28:48.170 --> 28:48.950]  I think that answers your question.
[28:50.380 --> 28:52.820]  And Jello and James and Keith, maybe y'all can answer this.
[28:53.300 --> 28:58.100]  Do you feel that way, that it's... you say Coors takes one of your songs and uses it in an ad.
[28:58.500 --> 29:02.410]  Does it feel like kind of a moral transgression against you?
[29:03.280 --> 29:06.000]  I think rape would be a better word.
[29:08.860 --> 29:12.240]  Would you guys put your music...
[29:12.240 --> 29:15.980]  That's why I'm fighting this lawsuit from people I thought were my friends.
[29:17.950 --> 29:26.320]  Were you saying before that you think it's a good thing that artists don't have complete control over their distribution, because it will, like, motivate them to create more?
[29:26.950 --> 29:27.430]  Well...
[29:27.430 --> 29:28.040]  Is that what you said?
[29:28.210 --> 29:29.710]  Copyright law is supposed to be a balance.
[29:30.220 --> 29:32.580]  And you have to take into account the...
[29:32.580 --> 29:42.220]  You have to give artists just enough incentive to produce and widely distribute their works, but you don't want a completely closed system, because every artist bills on the work of a previous artist.
[29:42.480 --> 29:43.930]  Now, that doesn't include Coors.
[29:44.100 --> 29:51.860]  If Coors were to take Jello songs and even tweak them a little bit, that would be a purely commercial act.
[29:53.490 --> 30:00.880]  And the way the copyright law works is Jello should have some claim to that, depending on the contracts he signed way back in the day, you know, all that kind of stuff.
[30:01.930 --> 30:04.960]  So, the answer is not simple either side.
[30:05.190 --> 30:23.480]  But we have to have a balanced copyright system that has holes in it, that lets a kid in his garage sample some classic material and put it out in a new way, and also lets people make fun of previous material, and lets people use cultural material that's copyrighted in the classroom,
[30:23.670 --> 30:27.260]  or for research, or in news media to be able to comment on it.
[30:27.430 --> 30:29.480]  And all of those things are under threat right now.
[30:29.480 --> 30:32.740]  But I don't understand how that's... you mean it's motivation?
[30:33.670 --> 30:35.170]  Are you gonna blackmail like people?
[30:35.210 --> 30:35.640]  Oh, no, no.
[30:35.960 --> 30:37.490]  The very... well, the very reason...
[30:38.410 --> 30:43.620]  Once you sign to a major label, they can, like, use what rights they have to your music against you to create more?
[30:43.930 --> 30:44.580]  Oh, no, no, no.
[30:45.110 --> 30:46.670]  I'm not saying... that's what it's out saying.
[30:46.710 --> 30:47.320]  Sure, sure, sure, sure.
[30:47.810 --> 30:51.840]  I mean, the basis for the very existence of the copyright system is to give...
[30:51.840 --> 30:53.740]  offer some sort of financial reward to creators.
[30:54.000 --> 30:54.210]  Right.
[30:54.450 --> 30:59.460]  But that's not a complete level of control over every use of the music.
[30:59.460 --> 31:00.300]  in all cases.
[31:00.540 --> 31:00.670]  Right.
[31:00.840 --> 31:10.710]  There are these very specific holes poked in the system, by Congress, by users, by courts, over the last two centuries, that sort of allow for certain levels of freedom.
[31:11.080 --> 31:13.380]  And that's what we call... when we talk about fair use, that's what we're talking about.
[31:13.620 --> 31:17.820]  But Coors using a commercially produced song in a commercial is not fair use.
[31:17.930 --> 31:21.580]  It's actually an overtly commercial act, and therefore requires permission.
[31:21.580 --> 31:37.720]  I would also add to that that some corporation, after being denied permission by the artist, put a Bette Midler song in a commercial with somebody who had a dead ringer for her voice, and Bette Midler sued them and won.
[31:37.720 --> 31:37.930]  I would love it.
[31:38.320 --> 31:38.720]  I would love it.
[31:40.220 --> 31:40.760]  I would love it.
[31:40.760 --> 31:42.000]  Lazlow, you want to say something?
[31:42.280 --> 31:58.690]  No, from the ethics standpoint of Napster and downloading stuff, I read an article in an audio production magazine about there's all these companies that develop add-on software for Pro Tools.
[31:59.000 --> 32:02.580]  It's basically what most radio stations use for production.
[32:02.880 --> 32:07.720]  And there's all these small companies that write these add-ons, and people use them every day.
[32:08.190 --> 32:17.950]  But what happens is two or three people in the audio production community, radio stations and production houses, buy it, and then they swap it online.
[32:18.320 --> 32:27.960]  And there's been several cases where these companies end up going out of business because their stuff is, you know, basically pirated.
[32:29.650 --> 32:32.320]  And people that use those add-ons love them.
[32:32.430 --> 32:33.860]  They use that software every day.
[32:35.050 --> 32:38.480]  But they're not supporting the stuff that they love.
[32:38.580 --> 32:44.430]  And it kind of sucks because there's really cool creative people out there creating stuff.
[32:44.760 --> 32:58.710]  And I kind of feel like if you enjoy something, whether it's Jello's music or it's an add-on piece of software or whatever, you should put your money where your mouth is and support that person financially.
[32:59.740 --> 33:01.450]  So that's an ethical assertion, right?
[33:01.520 --> 33:04.930]  What do you think the law can do to enforce that, if anything?
[33:05.460 --> 33:08.580]  Well, I mean, I don't... you're the lawyer, dude.
[33:08.980 --> 33:11.640]  I'm just... I'm just a hippie.
[33:14.300 --> 33:19.240]  I think if you try to enforce it, then you're going to get into some pretty draconian stuff.
[33:19.980 --> 33:24.690]  And every time you... every time you come up with...
[33:24.690 --> 33:28.220]  Okay, let's say if we shut down Napster tomorrow, it's irrelevant.
[33:29.280 --> 33:34.080]  There are Napsters under different names on the way or already out there.
[33:35.190 --> 33:37.340]  What is it, Gnutella or something?
[33:38.300 --> 33:42.640]  Which I think is also like some kind of strange butter spread in Europe.
[33:44.550 --> 33:47.560]  I'm going to sort of shamelessly play to the crowd.
[33:47.800 --> 33:55.170]  If everybody used open source software, free software in almost all cases, we wouldn't really have this problem.
[33:55.340 --> 33:56.480]  But that's not going to happen, right?
[33:56.600 --> 34:00.820]  I mean, we need to... there will be always commercially produced software and some of it's going to be great.
[34:01.450 --> 34:03.860]  Some of it's going to... and especially in specialized industries.
[34:03.860 --> 34:05.100]  Why will the crowd not be there?
[34:08.550 --> 34:09.930]  Why will the crowd not be there?
[34:09.930 --> 34:12.330]  Oh, we were talking about software piracy in this case.
[34:12.690 --> 34:12.850]  Right.
[34:13.050 --> 34:15.430]  I mean, music piracy is what this whole thing is about.
[34:15.510 --> 34:16.550]  But that's different.
[34:17.350 --> 34:23.290]  But nonetheless, I mean, that's why it was just a bonus house in a crowd for the sake of applause.
[34:23.550 --> 34:24.910]  I don't get enough of it in my business.
[34:25.130 --> 34:26.330]  You know, my students don't applaud me.
[34:28.490 --> 34:29.250]  But... thanks.
[34:32.290 --> 34:32.990]  All right.
[34:35.950 --> 34:39.310]  However, there are two proposed...
[34:39.310 --> 34:41.730]  I mean, there are really two solutions to the idea of software piracy.
[34:41.930 --> 34:49.530]  One is encrypted to such a degree that it's difficult to get around the electronic locks.
[34:49.730 --> 34:52.490]  But everyone in this room knows that won't last very long.
[34:53.190 --> 34:58.070]  It's just... it's like an arms race and nobody gets paid at the end.
[34:59.170 --> 35:02.630]  And then the other is really the ethical answer.
[35:02.770 --> 35:07.590]  And that is, have a community ethic about software and about piracy.
[35:07.730 --> 35:09.730]  And probably about music as well.
[35:09.910 --> 35:15.030]  And have a healthy attitude toward this as a commercial system.
[35:15.250 --> 35:16.270]  Now, here's the thing.
[35:16.410 --> 35:34.470]  I mean, every time a company like Microsoft or a company like Time Warner ratchets up the arms race, tries to take control of a big chunk of the culture or tries to take control over their product to the degree that they're, you know, forcing you to use a particular system for a particular use.
[35:34.470 --> 35:35.150]  You have no choice.
[35:35.330 --> 35:38.310]  You have to play a Sony DVD on a Sony DVD player.
[35:38.890 --> 35:47.810]  That makes people angry and they feel like it's okay to trump the system, ruin the system, fight the system, no matter who gets hurt.
[35:48.330 --> 35:49.710]  And that's a shame.
[35:50.650 --> 36:03.370]  But, so the only way that people are gonna stop trying to throw the whole system out of whack is if all of these companies were able to lower their prices to the point where we all appreciated what we were getting for the dollar.
[36:04.630 --> 36:05.810]  That's not an easy answer.
[36:05.990 --> 36:11.710]  I mean, it is something that's gonna have to sort of grow up through communities and that's how ethics works.
[36:12.250 --> 36:14.490]  People talk to each other about what's right and what's wrong.
[36:15.150 --> 36:21.930]  But it's always important to remember that if you introduce law to enforce ethics, you're often asking for more problems than you're solving.
[36:23.530 --> 36:27.950]  So we've got a little under half an hour left and I'd like to open it up for questions from the audience.
[36:27.950 --> 36:30.970]  A couple of other things I want to say.
[36:36.190 --> 36:37.190]  Alright, more on now.
[36:37.610 --> 36:39.410]  I had a comment and then a question.
[36:40.010 --> 36:46.550]  One thing that's really great about the internet is that you kind of disintermediate the whole process of the retail chain.
[36:46.670 --> 36:48.230]  Meaning that you take out the middle man.
[36:49.190 --> 36:56.950]  Suddenly, instead of having the artist and the listener and having a few couple, you know, maybe a distributor and a publishing company in the middle.
[36:57.290 --> 37:00.430]  You suddenly get rid of the middle two and you can go directly from one to the other.
[37:00.770 --> 37:10.270]  My question is, if you couldn't control the copying process, and this is mainly for Jello and James here.
[37:10.270 --> 37:16.290]  If you couldn't control people copying your music, there's kind of two aspects to making money in music.
[37:16.430 --> 37:21.090]  And one is the CD sales or the music sales and the other is the performance sales.
[37:21.690 --> 37:25.090]  Could you... do you think you could survive just on the performances?
[37:25.430 --> 37:30.230]  I mean, talking about in the middle ages we had wandering minstrels going around...
[37:30.230 --> 37:36.170]  And they were piss poor and some of the first people to be executed when the king got bored.
[37:39.740 --> 37:48.040]  There's a lot of wandering minstrels out there who would like to be able to like get their teeth fixed at the dentist.
[37:48.580 --> 37:55.140]  Or have a place to live that isn't like a total f*cking hole and stuff and don't want to...
[37:55.140 --> 38:02.300]  And the rest of us don't especially, who are right on the precipice of falling into that, don't want to fall into that.
[38:02.300 --> 38:12.660]  Because people rich enough to be able to burn their own CDs in their dorm room, thumb their nose at the idea of paying for the music, paying the musicians who make them happy.
[38:13.100 --> 38:16.180]  So no, wandering minstrels are not the answer.
[38:16.340 --> 38:26.240]  But an idea just came to me, is there's already movements to fight, you know, abusive workers and third world sweatshops for both clothing and other goods.
[38:26.240 --> 38:33.400]  People like Global Exchange have stores that sell only fair trade merchandise.
[38:33.960 --> 38:44.840]  And so maybe one thing to do would be for the artists, primarily underground ones, to form some kind of a union or distributor.
[38:44.840 --> 38:51.280]  Whereby, if you get this from us at a reasonable price, you know the artist is getting paid.
[38:51.760 --> 38:59.240]  And you know that, you know, succubi at major labels and management and law offices are not getting any piece of the pie.
[39:00.140 --> 39:03.660]  Because the free distribution and copying is unstoppable.
[39:04.500 --> 39:06.400]  That's never going to stop at this point.
[39:06.540 --> 39:07.320]  I don't know how...
[39:07.320 --> 39:15.760]  So the only thing the artist can do is just say, hey, you like our stuff, please give us a little human respect at the same time.
[39:16.260 --> 39:33.480]  Also, on a side tangent, I guess nobody mentioned yet, speaking of a major label greed, Sony and crew just lost an anti-trust action by the Federal Trade Commission, who ruled that their CDs were priced $5 higher than they ought to be.
[39:33.480 --> 39:40.120]  In other words, if they priced them at the same price that I sell mine for, it never would have happened to them.
[39:41.960 --> 39:42.560]  Good.
[39:43.160 --> 39:47.460]  Okay, what I want to say is also a mixture between a statement and a question.
[39:47.760 --> 39:58.700]  I think over the last two years, we only talk about the thing, how I could get my money, yeah?
[39:58.700 --> 40:03.420]  But isn't it more than only thinking about how I got my money in the old way?
[40:03.620 --> 40:09.840]  I think we have sooner or less think about the idea how to get goods generally.
[40:10.480 --> 40:20.880]  So, the question is, how digitally distributed, or better, what is the question of money in the future?
[40:21.080 --> 40:23.700]  That is the way we should start to talk about.
[40:23.900 --> 40:28.080]  It makes no sense for me to think, oh, now we talk about the musician.
[40:28.220 --> 40:29.900]  Now we talk about some other artists.
[40:30.000 --> 40:31.880]  Now we talk about some software engineers.
[40:31.880 --> 40:32.600]  No.
[40:33.340 --> 40:39.780]  The question is, we all in a way worked not only on the web or on the net, we work for the net.
[40:40.020 --> 40:43.900]  And there are some people who control the net.
[40:44.380 --> 40:50.000]  Why can we all stand up and say, hey, come on, W3C or some telephone providers.
[40:50.000 --> 40:51.240]  I work for you.
[40:51.400 --> 40:52.820]  I found some bucks.
[40:53.320 --> 40:56.200]  I programmed some scripts.
[40:56.460 --> 40:58.040]  I have to get money from you.
[40:58.900 --> 41:03.160]  And then we can talk about what I do with 10% of this money.
[41:03.340 --> 41:05.960]  I can give it then to Napster.
[41:05.980 --> 41:09.400]  Napster can give it back to 1% to the musician and so on.
[41:09.600 --> 41:15.020]  So this is more than only a question of how to get real money or credit card money.
[41:15.020 --> 41:22.440]  It's a question of how is the distribution of goods in the future.
[41:22.840 --> 41:27.540]  And that's not only a question out of the side of musicians or artists generally.
[41:28.060 --> 41:30.440]  It's a thing everyone has to think about.
[41:30.620 --> 41:36.020]  Because the net is really like a machine.
[41:36.260 --> 41:37.480]  And we work for this machine.
[41:37.700 --> 41:41.140]  It seems to be very strange or crazy to think about this.
[41:41.140 --> 41:45.760]  But in a way, we are the employers of the net.
[41:48.260 --> 41:49.760]  So, it's 50-50.
[41:50.020 --> 41:51.900]  It should be worked for a kind of Big Brother thing.
[41:52.040 --> 41:53.620]  It's controlled by Digimark systems.
[41:54.840 --> 41:59.660]  Which you walk around on a window and you have a sign here on your T-shirt.
[41:59.900 --> 42:03.680]  And the window popped up and said, oh, come on, you had a Walkman in your hand.
[42:03.680 --> 42:07.660]  And you listen to a track, but you hadn't registered this.
[42:07.860 --> 42:11.020]  Or the next day, a GPS system controlling me.
[42:11.400 --> 42:19.340]  Or I get an eye scanner because I look too much on a picture of a T-shirt or whatever.
[42:19.640 --> 42:20.820]  You have to think more.
[42:21.040 --> 42:22.420]  You have to use your fantasy.
[42:22.420 --> 42:23.020]  So, was your...
[42:23.020 --> 42:26.720]  What could happen if we say, okay, now we start with...
[42:26.720 --> 42:28.520]  Oh, I just want to narrow down the point a little bit.
[42:28.660 --> 42:31.260]  So, your basic question was, why are we...
[42:31.260 --> 42:36.180]  Is there kind of a false distinction between music and other kinds of intellectual works?
[42:36.280 --> 42:37.260]  Is that kind of what you were getting at?
[42:38.120 --> 42:38.440]  Yeah.
[42:38.960 --> 42:39.260]  The question...
[42:39.260 --> 42:40.160]  Was it about the future of money?
[42:40.520 --> 42:43.200]  Are you talking about the future of goods and services?
[42:43.460 --> 42:45.800]  I think of the economical distribution generally.
[42:45.800 --> 42:48.500]  So, in the meantime, we get...
[42:51.560 --> 42:53.040]  Okay, I'm a stupid European.
[42:53.200 --> 42:55.080]  Probably it sounds very socialistic.
[42:55.280 --> 43:04.040]  But my old philosophy professor told me, hey, capitalistic in a spiralistic way, that's a socialistic way to the back door.
[43:04.040 --> 43:06.080]  I'll just say something real quick to that and then we'll move on to the next question.
[43:06.080 --> 43:06.780]  He's a capitalist.
[43:06.800 --> 43:12.340]  I think that the comparison between coders and musicians is tough because I think that...
[43:12.340 --> 43:18.820]  I mean, there's a lot of parallels, but coders can give back to the net and help build the net and, you know, make it a better machine.
[43:19.000 --> 43:19.200]  But...
[43:19.690 --> 43:20.080]  I don't...
[43:20.590 --> 43:20.780]  Musicians...
[43:20.780 --> 43:22.440]  Music is much more purely aesthetic.
[43:22.620 --> 43:24.480]  Code is aesthetic, but it also is functional.
[43:25.260 --> 43:25.640]  And...
[43:25.640 --> 43:27.260]  So I think it's a tough analogy to make.
[43:27.380 --> 43:28.300]  But anyway, next question.
[43:29.320 --> 43:29.700]  Okay.
[43:34.480 --> 43:37.560]  Well, I'll try to make this as quick as I can, but...
[43:39.340 --> 43:41.340]  I guess there's a line behind me, but...
[43:41.340 --> 43:50.520]  Anyways, I'm not allowed to say too much about it, but since I talked to them last and told them to come to H2K, they gave me permission to get some more information out.
[43:50.760 --> 43:56.300]  But I'm currently beta testing a new sort of music distribution like Napster.
[43:56.560 --> 44:01.880]  The code name is called Aucaly, but they plan to change its official name sometime down the road.
[44:02.060 --> 44:02.200]  But...
[44:02.720 --> 44:04.160]  Anyways, this is like...
[44:04.160 --> 44:05.460]  It's like a Napster client.
[44:05.620 --> 44:09.920]  It still allows, you know, person-to-person communication of MP3 files.
[44:11.400 --> 44:13.020]  They're still, you know, good old MP3.
[44:13.160 --> 44:16.380]  They're not SDMI, or I like to call sodomy-protected.
[44:17.720 --> 44:18.120]  But...
[44:19.800 --> 44:20.200]  Anyways...
[44:21.700 --> 44:27.160]  The system will basically, every time a file is changed, will display a couple of banner ads.
[44:27.280 --> 44:31.140]  We don't know if it's going to be one, five, or whatever the official is, but it's just kind of...
[44:31.140 --> 44:32.720]  I'm getting a rough layout, but...
[44:32.720 --> 44:34.580]  It will display banner ads.
[44:34.860 --> 44:36.660]  The advertiser pays for those ads.
[44:36.660 --> 44:41.620]  The percentage goes to Aucaly Company, and then the rest of it, you know, goes to the artist.
[44:43.140 --> 44:48.360]  Unsigned artists, as well as, you know, signed record companies, can submit registry into the database.
[44:49.500 --> 44:49.940]  But...
[44:49.940 --> 44:57.140]  Anyways, some of the turmoils with this system that's being brought up, and why it's probably going to be delayed for a while coming out...
[44:59.260 --> 45:02.760]  I guess I can direct that question to maybe the artists on the panel.
[45:02.960 --> 45:05.660]  How would y'all feel, Jello and James and Keith, about having...
[45:05.660 --> 45:12.760]  You know, if it meant getting paid, and you knew you were going to get paid to have your music on the net, to have an ad embedded in all your MP3s?
[45:13.080 --> 45:14.880]  The ad's not embedded in the file.
[45:15.060 --> 45:17.220]  It's only displayed at the time of the transfer.
[45:17.500 --> 45:17.540]  But you have to watch it, right?
[45:17.860 --> 45:18.640]  Well, yeah, for a few seconds.
[45:18.640 --> 45:30.640]  You can pass on the ad, and the official way to download anything of mine on MP3 is www.mordamrecords.com, which is advertising free.
[45:31.040 --> 45:34.100]  The last thing I would want would be one of, like...
[45:34.100 --> 45:43.940]  My spoken word piece, Die for Oil Sucker, being downloaded while an ad to join the Marines is playing across the MP3 player.
[45:45.360 --> 45:50.180]  That is why I haven't signed with eMusic, for example.
[45:51.140 --> 45:52.240]  Well, there's a...
[45:52.240 --> 45:54.340]  Isn't there currently on MP3.com a...
[45:54.340 --> 45:57.940]  It's called Payback for Playback program that...
[45:58.520 --> 45:59.260]  Can we do that?
[45:59.500 --> 45:59.760]  I'm sorry.
[46:00.360 --> 46:01.040]  Easy.
[46:01.660 --> 46:03.200]  I think the vacuum cleaner sucks more.
[46:04.840 --> 46:12.760]  Apparently, after a certain amount of downloads per day, the artist is cut a certain amount of money based on the plays, so...
[46:13.900 --> 46:19.540]  But still, isn't that based on some sort of a sponsorship program where somebody is sponsoring, like...
[46:19.540 --> 46:21.980]  Oh yeah, well, there's banner ads on the website.
[46:26.200 --> 46:29.380]  Do you have a specific question, or we can just move on through the line?
[46:29.820 --> 46:32.540]  I encourage you all to step up in line if you have questions, also.
[46:32.540 --> 46:34.720]  Okay, well, let me get to...
[46:34.720 --> 46:35.680]  So, just one quick question.
[46:36.400 --> 46:37.220]  Yes or no answer.
[46:38.600 --> 46:41.760]  Well, the thing with this music software is it's also going to have a...
[46:41.760 --> 46:42.060]  Informal question.
[46:42.260 --> 46:47.500]  Yeah, it's going to have this genre system in there where it gets down to more detail, but...
[46:47.500 --> 46:48.740]  The thing is, is what...
[46:48.740 --> 46:50.520]  Another thing they're worried about is...
[46:50.520 --> 46:55.040]  What do you think of the idea that pretty soon there's not going to be any, like, major top bands anymore?
[46:55.200 --> 47:03.280]  You know, that pretty soon, you know, everybody's going to have their customized music collection, and, you know, it's like, okay, one band has, like, 200 fans scattered around the world.
[47:03.320 --> 47:04.620]  Where are you getting this idea from?
[47:04.860 --> 47:05.280]  Um...
[47:05.280 --> 47:07.960]  Do you watch MTV ever when you're flipping through channels?
[47:08.500 --> 47:15.500]  That, like, there's not going to be big bands that everybody listens to, and then, like, a small group of people that has more diverse tastes?
[47:16.220 --> 47:17.820]  There's always going to be pop culture.
[47:18.160 --> 47:21.020]  You're never going to get rid of the Britney Spears and the Hansons.
[47:21.360 --> 47:22.880]  Well, we know that for a fact, but...
[47:22.880 --> 47:24.900]  But you were saying there's not going to be any bigger bands.
[47:25.080 --> 47:27.100]  We're always going to sell millions of albums.
[47:27.540 --> 47:27.940]  Actually...
[47:27.940 --> 47:32.820]  If we get back to wandering minstrels for a minute, I think you're not going to see less of that.
[47:32.820 --> 47:45.960]  You may see more, because if the culture corporations figure, well, we can't make any money on albums anymore, so we're only going to push mega-pop stars, and in order to...
[47:45.960 --> 47:57.440]  And once people are conditioned to desperately want to see these mega-pop stars, in order to make back the money we would normally make on CDs, after all, major labels now own concert venues, too.
[47:57.840 --> 48:02.240]  Universal Concerts is part of the same Universal that owns MCA and Interscope.
[48:02.540 --> 48:07.060]  Well, because of that, we've decided to raise ticket prices to a hundred bucks.
[48:07.680 --> 48:16.380]  And only the hundred people, only the bands that people are willing to suck up, pony up a hundred bucks to see, are the only ones anybody's going to be able to see.
[48:16.700 --> 48:19.820]  That is a scenario I would not want to see.
[48:20.000 --> 48:22.320]  On top of that, they might also concert...
[48:22.320 --> 48:23.120]  Well, let's...
[48:23.120 --> 48:34.800]  We've got somebody who's good and gives a shit about their music, or we've got somebody pretty, where we can do hundred-dollar concerts and market dolls and action figures, which cannot be downloaded through Napster.
[48:34.800 --> 48:36.580]  Let's go with the dolls.
[48:36.840 --> 48:38.120]  Come on, Brittany, here we go.
[48:38.460 --> 48:39.740]  I don't want to see that either.
[48:40.120 --> 48:40.260]  Okay, let's move on to the next.
[48:40.300 --> 48:40.940]  Next question, please.
[48:41.160 --> 48:41.180]  Yeah.
[48:41.420 --> 48:41.540]  Okay.
[48:42.580 --> 48:45.160]  Please try and make your questions in the form of a question.
[48:45.660 --> 48:45.780]  All right.
[48:47.840 --> 48:48.900]  I'll take people short.
[48:48.900 --> 48:51.240]  Quite a clever ad streaming across your question.
[48:53.780 --> 48:54.220]  Continuing...
[48:54.220 --> 48:54.680]  Continuing...
[48:54.680 --> 48:55.300]  Continuing...
[48:58.690 --> 49:00.930]  Continuing with the banner ads issue.
[49:01.770 --> 49:02.730]  Go ahead, please.
[49:03.690 --> 49:05.590]  Banner ads will probably be no more pretty soon.
[49:05.590 --> 49:07.850]  After Don Marty, my partner in crime, and I get through.
[49:09.070 --> 49:15.030]  He actually has a proxy at ZGP.org, a way to block all double-click ads.
[49:15.490 --> 49:19.150]  And I'm encouraging him to write a book like 101 Ways to F*ck with Double-Click.
[49:19.250 --> 49:19.750]  Any questions?
[49:19.810 --> 49:20.650]  My question is...
[49:21.190 --> 49:24.090]  I think that people still like to buy physical hard goods.
[49:24.670 --> 49:27.950]  And like with Red Hat box sets, it's free software, but people buy it.
[49:28.470 --> 49:40.210]  Do you think that people will drop off in droves if MP3 becomes a definitive, you know, non-magnetic media format, non-physical?
[49:40.430 --> 49:44.850]  Well, I can't speak for everybody, but I don't think I'm going to stop buying CDs for a long time.
[49:44.850 --> 49:45.230]  Right.
[49:45.230 --> 49:46.190]  I really like them.
[49:46.610 --> 49:50.710]  And I've already invested several hundred dollars in the machines that play them.
[49:51.130 --> 49:55.430]  I only have one machine that plays MP3, and it weighs eight and a half pounds.
[49:55.550 --> 49:56.470]  I can't take it to the gym.
[49:56.790 --> 49:59.650]  I don't feel like dropping a few hundred bucks for another machine that plays them.
[49:59.650 --> 50:03.030]  And I also do think that liner notes are valuable.
[50:03.230 --> 50:04.750]  I think cover art's valuable.
[50:05.690 --> 50:10.970]  And I think an album actually works together if it's thought of as an album.
[50:11.210 --> 50:16.630]  Now, I've never listened to an NSYNC album all the way through, but I'd be willing to bet it's not actually an album.
[50:16.830 --> 50:21.250]  I'd be willing to bet it's two or three singles and a bunch of filler.
[50:21.830 --> 50:25.290]  On the other hand, you know, Springsteen's Nebraska is an album.
[50:25.290 --> 50:29.970]  And if it came out today, it would only be valuable as an album.
[50:30.290 --> 50:33.110]  Lou Reed's New York is an album that you have to listen to from beginning to end.
[50:33.690 --> 50:35.570]  And you can't really pick a single out of it.
[50:35.870 --> 50:37.030]  Every song talks to itself.
[50:37.190 --> 50:40.010]  So, I mean, it's going to live in some sort of form.
[50:40.810 --> 50:42.710]  But that's just me as a music fan speaking.
[50:43.210 --> 50:46.330]  Every other kid in America may have a completely different view of albums.
[50:46.330 --> 50:57.370]  But albums became the choice for distributing music, beat-out singles, in the late 60s, early 70s, because people really liked the idea of Sgt.
[50:57.390 --> 50:58.530]  Pepper or Quadrophenia.
[50:58.990 --> 51:00.410]  I mean, that really moved people.
[51:01.490 --> 51:04.050]  So, I mean, I don't think that's going to go away for a while.
[51:05.230 --> 51:17.070]  Although, when today's 12-year-olds become tomorrow's 20-year-olds and see no reason ever to buy a CD player, let alone a turntable, that could change.
[51:18.550 --> 51:27.450]  Yeah, this is in response to what Jello was saying before about how his friend doesn't have a job and he just works on his music and he's a really talented musician.
[51:28.550 --> 51:31.790]  And we haven't addressed the independent scene so much.
[51:31.990 --> 51:35.950]  But I've been in and out of punk rock bands and just all kinds of music for years.
[51:36.810 --> 51:42.290]  And you should know that if you're going to do that and not have a job, you're going to be living off food stamps no matter what.
[51:42.730 --> 51:49.730]  But as in terms of Napster, spreading the music throughout the U.S., you're going to make your money.
[51:50.090 --> 51:51.410]  You're going to have to go on tour.
[51:51.550 --> 51:55.910]  Just putting up a website and just trying to sell your CD, getting so many hits or whatever.
[51:57.170 --> 51:58.250]  You're going to have to...
[51:58.690 --> 51:59.010]  Do you have a question?
[51:59.010 --> 51:59.190]  I'm sorry.
[51:59.330 --> 51:59.670]  Do you have a question?
[51:59.670 --> 52:01.150]  No, this is just in response to what he said.
[52:01.310 --> 52:01.870]  I'm almost finished.
[52:02.010 --> 52:02.290]  I'm sorry.
[52:03.490 --> 52:05.670]  But yeah, you're going to have to go out on tour.
[52:07.590 --> 52:10.790]  Supposedly Napster will probably get your CD hyped up if you have one out.
[52:12.050 --> 52:15.230]  And there's no way you're just going to make it just by not having a job.
[52:15.390 --> 52:20.650]  You could be really talented and that's really sad, but you're just not going to make it just that way.
[52:20.790 --> 52:22.690]  You should know because you have your own label.
[52:22.870 --> 52:24.710]  You put out a bunch of punk rock bands with everyone.
[52:24.710 --> 52:33.530]  Almost everybody on that label would dearly like to quit their f*cking shit jobs and play do what they really love full time.
[52:34.030 --> 52:37.290]  That's true, but some of those bands don't really tour a lot.
[52:37.950 --> 52:38.850]  Ours do.
[52:39.090 --> 52:41.030]  How many CDs did Buzzkill sell?
[52:42.690 --> 52:44.170]  Not as much as I wish.
[52:44.170 --> 52:45.110]  All right.
[52:45.410 --> 52:45.930]  All right.
[52:46.010 --> 52:47.270]  Next question, please.
[52:48.150 --> 52:49.270]  Can I just add something to that?
[52:49.810 --> 52:53.170]  Yeah, one of the biggest thrills as a musician is performing live.
[52:54.290 --> 53:03.450]  So like you really just can't sit at home and try to sell your music over the internet or through your mailbox and really be satisfied as a musician.
[53:03.450 --> 53:05.150]  I think there's another issue too.
[53:05.350 --> 53:10.490]  Are you creating art with music or whatever to make bank?
[53:10.670 --> 53:18.990]  Or are you trying to express yourself and maybe introduce a new concept to other people and make people think about things?
[53:19.230 --> 53:24.690]  I think punk rock and a lot of activist music, it may not just be about the ducats.
[53:24.690 --> 53:26.530]  It's about social change.
[53:29.620 --> 53:31.040]  Go ahead with the next question.
[53:32.620 --> 53:51.240]  I really liked what Jello said about sort of a union or maybe an online independent label that every musician that was interested could be a part of that, you know, so that the consumer or the listener would be buying it for a reason.
[53:51.840 --> 53:58.280]  And I was also, I was thinking about, we talked a lot about what might happen or a little bit about what might happen to major labels.
[53:58.400 --> 54:09.080]  But what would happen to independent labels if the Napster type thing was really big and if we didn't have some kind of union or other kind of cooperative.
[54:09.740 --> 54:13.080]  So I just, I wanted to sort of just have people talk about that again.
[54:13.080 --> 54:17.280]  We might not be able to afford to pay our bills.
[54:17.440 --> 54:19.520]  And he asked, what do you need labels for?
[54:19.860 --> 54:28.380]  Well, I don't want to have to do every goddamn phone call to every radio station and every press person and every letter that comes in myself.
[54:28.380 --> 54:29.560]  I don't have time.
[54:29.560 --> 54:32.480]  I can't create anything anymore if I do.
[54:32.480 --> 54:36.080]  So I must hire somebody else to help me with that.
[54:36.080 --> 54:42.800]  And at this point, the label, Alternative Tentacles, has five people working there doing various things.
[54:43.180 --> 54:58.240]  And the reason other people come to us wanting us to put out their stuff is that so those five people can help get their stuff out there to far more than people who would find it at random browsing on the web.
[54:58.240 --> 55:03.120]  So that when they tour, somebody might have heard of them and actually show up.
[55:03.280 --> 55:06.600]  Touring doesn't do a damn bit of good if nobody goes to see you play.
[55:06.880 --> 55:13.060]  Do you think the labels will, it'll be harder to have an independent label if the Napster thing is bigger?
[55:13.260 --> 55:13.960]  It'll be different.
[55:14.280 --> 55:18.920]  It'll be like some independent labels are going to be able to grasp this stuff really well and run with it.
[55:22.300 --> 55:23.360]  Well, I don't know.
[55:23.560 --> 55:24.140]  I don't run a label.
[55:24.260 --> 55:28.460]  But I'll tell you what, Anita Franco's label is probably going to do really well.
[55:28.560 --> 55:36.420]  Because it has such a strong fan base, people who are deeply loyal to her and the bands that are with her.
[55:36.940 --> 55:39.000]  And they don't have their own website yet.
[55:39.460 --> 55:43.660]  There's something like 12 or 14 fan-based websites for her.
[55:43.660 --> 55:48.740]  And they all point, they all give the address of where to get the CDs and where to get the t-shirts.
[55:49.360 --> 55:51.980]  And you can get her stuff on MP3 all over the place.
[55:52.120 --> 55:58.040]  But people are still buying her CDs, whether it's in the back of a concert hall or they're sending her a check.
[55:59.120 --> 56:03.100]  And if you can work that out, I mean, overhead might be lower, might be higher.
[56:03.200 --> 56:03.600]  You don't know.
[56:03.720 --> 56:05.500]  I mean, the web changes all those questions.
[56:06.080 --> 56:11.080]  On the other hand, there's a... Chuck D's rapstation.com is an independent label.
[56:11.540 --> 56:13.200]  And it sells ad space.
[56:13.400 --> 56:14.700]  And that's how it generates revenue.
[56:15.160 --> 56:18.840]  It also likes to... I think they charge a dollar a song.
[56:18.960 --> 56:19.840]  I haven't looked at it in a long time.
[56:19.940 --> 56:21.980]  Pretty sure they charge a dollar a song for a download.
[56:22.380 --> 56:24.900]  And that's Chuck D's thing.
[56:25.040 --> 56:26.520]  It really shows you what a label's worth.
[56:27.140 --> 56:29.280]  A label is a gatekeeper.
[56:29.460 --> 56:33.080]  It's making an editorial decision for you and saves you time.
[56:33.080 --> 56:52.320]  If you want to hear an artist that Chuck D digs and you don't want to have to wade through 300 MP3 downloads or 299 are going to be crap, you can go to rapstation.com and if his people have sort of given it a stamp of approval and you like everything else you've heard there,
[56:52.680 --> 56:54.180]  the gatekeeper function works.
[56:54.360 --> 56:56.080]  And that can save everyone a lot of time and money.
[56:56.180 --> 57:06.000]  And maybe distribute a little money within that economy as well so that these folks who can't get on major labels and certainly can't get on radio can make a little cash in addition to what they get touring.
[57:07.740 --> 57:08.780]  Do you have another question?
[57:10.200 --> 57:14.260]  Well, maybe a little more about the possibility of that type of union.
[57:15.120 --> 57:20.180]  I wanted to just hear what other people are thinking about that kind of possibility.
[57:21.320 --> 57:22.380]  Any other thoughts, guys?
[57:22.520 --> 57:24.560]  Maybe that's one to think about afterwards, I guess.
[57:24.560 --> 57:26.220]  That was off the top of my head.
[57:26.420 --> 57:28.380]  That came to me while I was sitting here.
[57:28.600 --> 57:29.200]  So that's all.
[57:29.840 --> 57:31.120]  Don't make me run it.
[57:31.200 --> 57:32.820]  I already got too much to do.
[57:34.100 --> 57:35.160]  Well, that's a good one to think about.
[57:35.280 --> 57:37.060]  I guess we'll move on to the next question, please.
[57:38.740 --> 57:40.400]  I have two questions.
[57:40.540 --> 57:43.440]  One based on the response to that last question.
[57:43.440 --> 57:57.500]  The first question is that everybody says all these wonderful things, like in the beginning, about how Napster is going to be used to get people in India access to Metallica or people in this country access to independent songs that they don't see.
[57:57.760 --> 58:01.580]  But all of this software, from what I see, is you search for a song.
[58:01.820 --> 58:05.060]  And in my experience, I've only used Napster once.
[58:05.620 --> 58:09.360]  And I did a search for Devo and turned up one copy of Whip It.
[58:09.360 --> 58:12.720]  I did a search for a band called They Might Be Giants and turned up nothing.
[58:13.040 --> 58:17.520]  And found a million copies of whatever Britney Spears' single was.
[58:18.320 --> 58:19.320]  Well, I'll tell you what.
[58:19.480 --> 58:24.100]  And I'm just saying that people are searching for what they want.
[58:24.320 --> 58:29.300]  So isn't it really going to be that you're just going to have the most popular music on there?
[58:29.400 --> 58:29.980]  In a way.
[58:30.120 --> 58:32.940]  But first of all, if you want They Might Be Giants, it's emusic.com.
[58:34.800 --> 58:36.720]  I do buy it from emusic.com.
[58:36.720 --> 58:43.020]  Yeah, and They Might Be Giants is totally down with any sort of new business model that deals with electronic music distribution.
[58:43.220 --> 58:46.840]  Because they hated that they got the short end of stuff for years from major labels.
[58:47.240 --> 58:49.520]  However, now, but that's a really good question.
[58:49.680 --> 59:00.400]  And the solution to that, the only way that emerging bands, marginal bands, are going to actually win this game is if communities of listeners operate the way they should and the way they always have.
[59:00.440 --> 59:00.980]  And I think they will.
[59:00.980 --> 59:06.640]  One of the great things about Napster is you can talk to other people who share your musical tastes.
[59:07.060 --> 59:12.740]  And you can do it on Gnutella too, although the message traffic on Gnutella is really sort of poor right now.
[59:13.420 --> 59:14.420]  Isn't the G hard?
[59:15.220 --> 59:15.540]  Pardon me?
[59:15.680 --> 59:17.420]  I thought the G was supposed to be hard.
[59:17.640 --> 59:18.240]  Maybe it is.
[59:18.860 --> 59:20.000]  I'm pretty sure it's Gnutella.
[59:20.440 --> 59:22.580]  It's like new, as in GNU.
[59:22.760 --> 59:23.000]  I mean...
[59:23.660 --> 59:24.240]  I don't know.
[59:24.600 --> 59:25.040]  That's...
[59:25.040 --> 59:26.340]  Yes, it's like new...
[59:26.340 --> 59:27.080]  It's like the...
[59:27.080 --> 59:27.780]  Right, anyway.
[59:27.920 --> 59:30.020]  It's like that water buffalo-ish animal thing.
[59:31.100 --> 59:31.980]  But the...
[59:32.620 --> 59:44.140]  If communities of listeners are allowed to give each other tips, tell people what's hot, what's good, which is how marginal music has always worked, then yes, you can find stuff.
[59:44.320 --> 59:45.420]  You're not going to be able to find everything.
[59:45.540 --> 59:47.380]  You're certainly not going to be able to find back catalog stuff that well.
[59:47.380 --> 59:53.860]  I'm actually surprised that, you know, someone else hasn't decided, some major Devo fan hasn't put every Devo song on there.
[59:53.940 --> 59:55.960]  Maybe they are there somewhere, but you just didn't get lucky.
[59:56.100 --> 59:59.780]  I think this is also a reaction to what happened to radio.
[01:00:01.640 --> 01:00:03.060]  Radio has changed dramatically.
[01:00:03.460 --> 01:00:07.100]  Two or three companies own every f*cking radio station, and that's no lie.
[01:00:07.300 --> 01:00:10.920]  There's companies that own 800 radio stations.
[01:00:11.280 --> 01:00:18.880]  There is one guy that decides all the music for K-Rock New York, K-Rock LA, and Live 105 in San Francisco.
[01:00:19.120 --> 01:00:20.120]  I thought it was a computer.
[01:00:20.560 --> 01:00:25.400]  And in a lot of cases, it is...
[01:00:26.120 --> 01:00:28.520]  The software is called Selector.
[01:00:30.900 --> 01:00:33.600]  And it's getting to the point now where...
[01:00:33.600 --> 01:00:45.240]  I actually have a colleague that works in Denver, and they have a little farm of DJs there, and the DJs read the computers, and they see there's a Metallica song and a Van Halen song, and they go, Hey, that was Metallica, now it's Van Halen.
[01:00:45.340 --> 01:00:55.760]  And that voice file is shipped to radio stations nationwide and placed in between those songs, and those songs are just played off of a server at radio stations in those markets.
[01:00:56.100 --> 01:01:04.120]  That's what's happened to radio, and I think that's why Napster and the internet music community is a reaction to that, because the radio really, really sucks.
[01:01:10.440 --> 01:01:11.900]  You said you had another question?
[01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:12.120]  Yeah.
[01:01:12.480 --> 01:01:12.580]  Okay.
[01:01:13.580 --> 01:01:17.440]  Maybe Laszlo should start playing music during the techno file, is what he should do.
[01:01:17.700 --> 01:01:26.080]  No, Jello said before about the labels, that it was the artist finding somebody to work for them, because they couldn't do all the work.
[01:01:26.720 --> 01:01:27.820]  And isn't that part of the problem?
[01:01:28.300 --> 01:01:31.020]  Isn't the current system now that the artists aren't working...
[01:01:31.020 --> 01:01:32.460]  The labels aren't working for the artists.
[01:01:32.640 --> 01:01:34.820]  The artists are working for the labels in most cases.
[01:01:35.680 --> 01:01:36.920]  Major labels, yes.
[01:01:36.920 --> 01:01:39.840]  Independent labels, hopefully not.
[01:01:40.420 --> 01:01:45.100]  Although that does not count the independent labels who are wannabe major labels.
[01:01:45.340 --> 01:01:46.800]  They shall remain nameless.
[01:01:48.520 --> 01:01:49.120]  Hello.
[01:01:49.760 --> 01:02:06.040]  I was wondering if you think stuff like the Napster is going to cause more horizontal and vertical consolidation and integration in the industry, or if it will help stop what you were talking about, like a company owning not only record companies, but also doing the concerts and stuff like that.
[01:02:06.040 --> 01:02:10.500]  Is, you know, stuff like the Napster going to change that, or is it going to make it worse?
[01:02:11.920 --> 01:02:13.440]  Go ahead, go first.
[01:02:13.640 --> 01:02:18.500]  I have no idea, I don't think anybody does, what's going to happen with that.
[01:02:18.580 --> 01:02:37.120]  But another thought that occurred to me up here is, imagine if Metallica and Napster go to trial, and the ruling is that not only Napster can do what they're doing, but anyone else can too, so immediately Microsoft moves in, Sony moves in, Oracle moves in,
[01:02:37.260 --> 01:02:43.240]  and sweeps Napster clear out the door, decides finally it'll be just like the 50s.
[01:02:43.360 --> 01:02:45.740]  We don't have to pay anybody anymore.
[01:02:46.320 --> 01:02:47.900]  That I would hate to see.
[01:02:48.860 --> 01:02:50.760]  It's an interesting question also because...
[01:02:50.760 --> 01:02:52.120]  That's what AOL is doing.
[01:02:53.500 --> 01:02:57.580]  One of the claims in the countersuit, but I have to get lawyerly for a second, but it's good news.
[01:02:58.780 --> 01:03:15.440]  One of the claims in the countersuit by Napster's lawyers against the RIAA is that, kind of an obscure claim called abusive copyright, and they're basically saying that the RIAA and the labels that belong to it are basically making the suit in bad faith in order to keep out this format that they see as a threat.
[01:03:15.440 --> 01:03:18.020]  So, that kind of addresses that question.
[01:03:19.320 --> 01:03:23.220]  Hello, I was overall wondering, can you stop it?
[01:03:23.400 --> 01:03:24.860]  I mean, can anyone...
[01:03:24.860 --> 01:03:36.560]  They try, the government tries, everyone tries to stop technology, but I think the problem is that they don't realize that you can't stop something because it's always changing.
[01:03:36.880 --> 01:03:41.740]  I mean, you have Napster, you have Gnutella, you have Q-MX, you have all these things.
[01:03:41.900 --> 01:03:44.640]  I mean, you have MP3s, you have ASS, you have movies.
[01:03:44.640 --> 01:03:47.780]  I mean, you shut down MP3s, there's going to be something else.
[01:03:48.100 --> 01:03:51.100]  I mean, and you see all these bitter people.
[01:03:51.400 --> 01:03:54.660]  I mean, Metallica, like Dr. Dre, Eminem.
[01:03:56.400 --> 01:03:58.480]  Do they really have a right to be bitter?
[01:03:58.780 --> 01:04:05.000]  I mean, Van Gogh, Picasso, these are the poorest people in the world, or were, considering they're dead now.
[01:04:05.120 --> 01:04:06.980]  I mean, Dolly didn't even do that well.
[01:04:07.420 --> 01:04:08.360]  And they're really...
[01:04:08.360 --> 01:04:10.980]  Picasso and Dolly did really well.
[01:04:10.980 --> 01:04:16.860]  Van Gogh, however, is exactly what I'd hate to see aspiring musicians wind up like.
[01:04:19.220 --> 01:04:21.060]  So your question is about...
[01:04:21.740 --> 01:04:26.920]  I mean, like, I suppose my question is that, I mean, what's really the point?
[01:04:27.220 --> 01:04:32.360]  I mean, of taking the RIAA against MP3.com and Napster.
[01:04:32.780 --> 01:04:35.040]  I mean, can anything really be accomplished?
[01:04:35.040 --> 01:04:36.820]  Well, that's an interesting question.
[01:04:36.980 --> 01:04:45.680]  I mean, first of all, there's nothing that the RIAA can do about all the MP3s on everyone's hard drives right now.
[01:04:45.820 --> 01:04:48.880]  They're not going to sweep through and attack users.
[01:04:49.120 --> 01:04:57.140]  Although Metallica likes to attack users, the RIAA does not because it's bad business to alienate your potential customers.
[01:04:57.400 --> 01:05:02.540]  And deep in their hearts, they know that the people who are collecting MP3s are the biggest music fans in the world.
[01:05:02.540 --> 01:05:07.120]  And so going after us, me included, would be really bad business.
[01:05:07.560 --> 01:05:08.600]  That's number one.
[01:05:08.780 --> 01:05:09.740]  So they're not going to go after users.
[01:05:09.860 --> 01:05:28.340]  The second reason they're not going to go after users is, as previous copyright cases have shown, when the motion picture industry tried to go after people for time shifting, for recording shows on at 8 and watching them at midnight, Congress and the courts always stand up,
[01:05:28.340 --> 01:05:40.340]  have always stood up for what Mr. and Mrs. America do in the privacy of their living room, unless they're having consensual sex between people of the same gender.
[01:05:41.360 --> 01:05:42.960]  That's a totally different issue to them.
[01:05:43.280 --> 01:05:48.020]  However, so no, they're not going to be able to bottle up that.
[01:05:48.020 --> 01:05:55.880]  The reason they're going after Napster is out of frustration and ultimately it's not...
[01:05:55.880 --> 01:05:56.140]  Fear of the unknown.
[01:05:56.140 --> 01:05:56.740]  Yeah, fear of the unknown.
[01:05:56.900 --> 01:06:06.920]  But it's a strange thing because, I mean, they've got to know that if they get an injunction against Napster on July 27th, on July 29th, all these Napster users are on Gnutella.
[01:06:06.920 --> 01:06:08.780]  And there's nobody you can sue at that point.
[01:06:09.560 --> 01:06:12.300]  And, I mean, it's just going to be an amazing shift.
[01:06:12.480 --> 01:06:13.620]  Everyone knows what's up.
[01:06:14.820 --> 01:06:25.700]  And there's really nothing they can do except deny all these venture capitalists all the money that they've invested in a company that basically can't make a dime because they don't charge for anything anyway.
[01:06:25.840 --> 01:06:28.820]  And I guess one last question is that what is...
[01:06:28.820 --> 01:06:39.080]  I haven't heard one response, one reasonable, reasonably acceptable response to the claim and the fact that record sales are up.
[01:06:39.240 --> 01:06:40.380]  They're up 8%.
[01:06:40.380 --> 01:06:45.380]  And I've listened to the Senate Judiciary hearing on Napster.
[01:06:45.540 --> 01:06:48.500]  I've listened to, like, everything on the news.
[01:06:48.660 --> 01:06:49.800]  And record sales are up.
[01:06:49.940 --> 01:06:52.440]  So what's the big deal?
[01:06:52.660 --> 01:06:53.040]  I mean...
[01:06:53.040 --> 01:06:54.040]  The problem is control.
[01:06:54.200 --> 01:06:56.540]  They would love to get secure digital music.
[01:06:56.760 --> 01:06:58.340]  They would love to be able to rap everything.
[01:06:58.340 --> 01:07:00.920]  And AOL would love to be the way that they deliver this music.
[01:07:01.060 --> 01:07:05.720]  And they want to deliver it through your cable box into a player that they supply for you.
[01:07:05.820 --> 01:07:15.140]  And their dreams are being dashed because a couple of very creative programmers decided to make a few simple leaps in the system.
[01:07:15.640 --> 01:07:23.480]  And thank goodness for creative programmers because they're the only ones protecting us from a completely sealed system.
[01:07:24.680 --> 01:07:25.080]  Thank you.
[01:07:26.360 --> 01:07:32.200]  Let's take one more question unless anybody wants to step up right now because we're a little bit over time as it is.
[01:07:32.580 --> 01:07:33.860]  I'd like to make a comment first.
[01:07:34.260 --> 01:07:38.860]  Every time I've seen more control, I've seen markets not grow.
[01:07:39.060 --> 01:07:39.720]  I've seen them shrink.
[01:07:40.580 --> 01:07:42.720]  So the real issue, I think, is how...
[01:07:43.280 --> 01:07:44.760]  The real issue, I think, is...
[01:07:44.760 --> 01:07:48.800]  Isn't the whole distribution channel for music, movies, etc.
[01:07:49.140 --> 01:07:50.880]  controlled by a small number of people?
[01:07:51.160 --> 01:07:53.980]  And what they're really fearful of is losing that control.
[01:07:54.360 --> 01:07:59.900]  And are we really talking about changing the whole business model in such a way that...
[01:08:00.860 --> 01:08:03.440]  Who knows how it will actually change in the long run?
[01:08:03.440 --> 01:08:08.840]  But I disagree that people are gonna stop buying CDs and all.
[01:08:09.040 --> 01:08:11.620]  I think that the whole market is just gonna get huge.
[01:08:12.080 --> 01:08:13.440]  It's just gonna grow more.
[01:08:13.640 --> 01:08:15.080]  But it's gonna be a different market.
[01:08:15.240 --> 01:08:18.160]  And it's no longer gonna be controlled by a small number of people.
[01:08:18.320 --> 01:08:20.580]  It's going to be controlled by a larger group of people.
[01:08:20.760 --> 01:08:23.700]  And more independents, for example, will be able to get into the market.
[01:08:23.960 --> 01:08:25.480]  More bands will be able to get in.
[01:08:25.880 --> 01:08:29.100]  And the result will be more music bought, not less.
[01:08:29.100 --> 01:08:34.700]  Metallica is pissed because a song that you couldn't even buy at the time was released.
[01:08:34.880 --> 01:08:37.300]  I mean, it was like an unfinished rarity or something.
[01:08:37.980 --> 01:08:40.760]  I think a lot of people use Napster for that.
[01:08:41.060 --> 01:08:44.780]  Finding stuff like obscure f*cking German B-sides or something like that.
[01:08:45.220 --> 01:08:46.740]  Not just for the album versions.
[01:08:46.920 --> 01:08:49.260]  And that's not going to make a difference, man.
[01:08:49.400 --> 01:08:52.540]  If you like the band, you want the album, you want an album.
[01:08:52.680 --> 01:08:53.380]  It's not going to change.
[01:08:53.380 --> 01:08:54.280]  Right, but is that bad?
[01:08:54.380 --> 01:08:55.120]  I mean, look at it for a second.
[01:08:55.120 --> 01:08:55.600]  No, that's not bad.
[01:08:55.720 --> 01:08:59.580]  Here you've got Metallica, which at least is sponsored by some large record company.
[01:08:59.940 --> 01:09:02.800]  The Metallica fans are out there looking for more Metallica music.
[01:09:02.920 --> 01:09:03.860]  They should be flattered.
[01:09:04.280 --> 01:09:04.520]  They should be flattered.
[01:09:04.520 --> 01:09:07.820]  Metallica should be flattered that someone wants to hear something that's not even f*cking finished.
[01:09:08.140 --> 01:09:10.280]  I'm not sure you're going to find people up here who's going to disagree with you.
[01:09:10.540 --> 01:09:10.540]  Right.
[01:09:10.680 --> 01:09:12.640]  But let me add one more thing that just sort of rags on that.
[01:09:12.780 --> 01:09:26.080]  I mean, the most socially significant song of this year, maybe this century, if you want to say this century started already, was American American Skin by Bruce Springsteen, which you can only hear on MP3.
[01:09:27.040 --> 01:09:28.800]  He's not recorded it.
[01:09:28.900 --> 01:09:29.940]  He probably won't record it.
[01:09:30.200 --> 01:09:31.880]  The guy has been in the business 25 years.
[01:09:32.020 --> 01:09:33.860]  He's released two live albums.
[01:09:34.040 --> 01:09:39.820]  If you're going to wait for a live version of American Skin, you're going to be waiting another 15, 20 years until he gets around to doing another one.
[01:09:40.040 --> 01:09:42.820]  But American Skin is about important public issues.
[01:09:43.580 --> 01:09:50.180]  And there's been so much public discussion about it because of the police reaction, because of various journalistic interpretations.
[01:09:50.180 --> 01:09:55.200]  There's a lot of good commentary going on in various publications about what that song actually means.
[01:09:55.600 --> 01:09:59.200]  And without MP3s, there would be none of that public discussion.
[01:09:59.980 --> 01:10:01.000]  One more question.
[01:10:01.300 --> 01:10:03.700]  Isn't Napster just a directory service?
[01:10:04.400 --> 01:10:10.900]  I mean, if it gets shut down because it's providing a directory service, there's all these other directories that should be shut down also.
[01:10:12.380 --> 01:10:12.660]  Right.
[01:10:12.880 --> 01:10:13.940]  I mean, that's one of the arguments in that.
[01:10:13.940 --> 01:10:17.100]  Then another two heads will grow in its place the next day.
[01:10:17.880 --> 01:10:25.380]  That's one of the arguments that Napster is going to make in their lawsuit or they have made in their brief is that it's simply a directory and they have a First Amendment right to list this stuff.
[01:10:25.960 --> 01:10:31.940]  I guess the other side of that is what the RIAA is claiming is that they're contributing to copyright infringement.
[01:10:32.040 --> 01:10:32.960]  It's not just a directory.
[01:10:33.160 --> 01:10:35.200]  It's a place...
[01:10:35.560 --> 01:10:37.060]  Step up to the mic if you have something to say.
[01:10:38.020 --> 01:10:40.320]  It's a place where, you know, people come to share files.
[01:10:40.460 --> 01:10:41.900]  And so that's the other argument.
[01:10:42.120 --> 01:10:43.060]  Anyway, our last question here.
[01:10:43.060 --> 01:10:44.720]  Well, a couple other things.
[01:10:44.900 --> 01:10:45.720]  Got to get this in.
[01:10:47.380 --> 01:10:53.560]  Number one, the 8% rise in CD sales is certainly news to me.
[01:10:53.840 --> 01:10:54.860]  I hadn't heard that.
[01:10:55.000 --> 01:11:01.340]  And I have to question what percentage of that 8% actually came from independence.
[01:11:01.340 --> 01:11:10.000]  And what percentage of it came from the skyrocketing success of Instinct and others who sail with them.
[01:11:10.420 --> 01:11:13.240]  That's one thing that might be skewing that figure.
[01:11:13.460 --> 01:11:19.320]  And another thing that's skewing the part is that independents are automatically growing and will automatically grow.
[01:11:20.160 --> 01:11:23.000]  That is not necessarily true.
[01:11:23.580 --> 01:11:31.480]  I mean, sales among at least independent rock labels have been going steadily down over the past few years.
[01:11:31.740 --> 01:11:38.040]  And part of it may be because more and more people are listening to hip-hop and electronic music as another generation comes up.
[01:11:38.040 --> 01:11:49.400]  But another reason is that, especially after the Nirvana explosion and then the Green Day explosion, way more people wanted to be in bands and do it themselves.
[01:11:49.820 --> 01:11:55.120]  Or, unfortunately, Trust Fund babies also began starting labels for the wrong reasons.
[01:11:55.120 --> 01:12:07.020]  But the point being, more and more cool bands, more and more cool labels, but the audience did not grow anywhere near by the same level.
[01:12:07.280 --> 01:12:14.740]  So the slices of the pie for those artists get smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller.
[01:12:15.060 --> 01:12:21.060]  And that is not necessarily growth of an individual independent artist.
[01:12:21.060 --> 01:12:25.760]  There may be more artists, but the slices of the pie are steadily getting a lot smaller.
[01:12:26.220 --> 01:12:27.500]  Okay, one more quick question.
[01:12:27.720 --> 01:12:27.940]  Okay.
[01:12:28.840 --> 01:12:46.200]  It seems to be what you're saying is that what pisses you off isn't the little guy just downloading your music to sample it and stuff, but when people take your music and then make money off of it while you're not making money.
[01:12:46.820 --> 01:12:47.820]  So what's your question?
[01:12:47.820 --> 01:13:10.380]  And what I'm asking is, do you think it would be helpful to have a copyright law that is similar to a GNU license, where it can be distributed and people will still buy your CDs, they are, but a company cannot take your music and make money off of it.
[01:13:10.540 --> 01:13:14.680]  Like, you can then take your music and put it on a commercial and make money off of it.
[01:13:15.940 --> 01:13:18.180]  Well, technically, they can't do that now.
[01:13:18.380 --> 01:13:22.920]  I mean, Coors couldn't take someone's song and play it on their end without getting sued and losing.
[01:13:23.200 --> 01:13:24.600]  I mean, like we were just talking about before.
[01:13:25.200 --> 01:13:25.420]  Yeah.
[01:13:25.440 --> 01:13:26.840]  So that's kind of already in place.
[01:13:28.300 --> 01:13:30.420]  But more like, I mean...
[01:13:30.420 --> 01:13:32.900]  You're talking about like a licensing scheme kind of thing, right?
[01:13:32.980 --> 01:13:34.260]  The way open source works.
[01:13:34.360 --> 01:13:34.840]  Yeah, exactly.
[01:13:34.840 --> 01:13:35.120]  Right.
[01:13:35.320 --> 01:13:45.520]  Well, I mean, there already is a kind of compulsory license for if you want to do a version of someone else's song, say like what Van Halen did a cover of You Really Got Me or whatever.
[01:13:45.640 --> 01:13:48.300]  The Pixies did a cover of Winter Long by Neil Young.
[01:13:48.800 --> 01:13:50.660]  You have to let the other band cover it.
[01:13:50.740 --> 01:13:52.740]  But that's a different thing from copying the song.
[01:13:53.260 --> 01:13:56.340]  But anyway, I guess we'll just wrap it up because we're way over time.
[01:13:56.340 --> 01:14:00.480]  I'd just like to ask y'all to thank me and help me thank the panelists, rather.
[01:14:01.120 --> 01:14:01.700]  Thank you.
[01:14:01.860 --> 01:14:02.020]  Yeah.
[01:14:14.310 --> 01:14:19.890]  Also, thanks to Glenn who came all the way from Washington, DC to have this panel.
[01:14:19.890 --> 01:14:19.910]  Thank you.