seven o'clock and bring cash and remember you're making pledges to wbai to support
listener supported radio we've got troops over in somalia trying to feed the starving kids
right downstairs from where you live there are people starving
why don't you help them tonight thank you for listening this is joe king i'll see you next week
coming this saturday at 9 p.m the secret museum of the air dateline 100 years ago daring explorers
risk their lives to capture the hidden sounds of humanity with a newly discovered invention
the gramophone join citizen kafka and curator pat conti as they slowly peel back the layers of
time to enter the shrouded mists of the golden age of the gramophone each week the lost sounds
of historic recordings from the far corners of the earth on the secret museum of the air
visiting hours every saturday from 9 to 10 p.m remember knowledge is power thoughts have wings
and the secret museum is open this saturday at 9 p.m that's saturday 9 p.m the secret museum of the air
9 p.m saturday 9 p.m saturday
and it's 10 19 p.m this is a special day things are going a little bit crazy both here at wbai and
throughout the world so normally off the hook comes to you at 10 o'clock but because it's a crazy day
off the hook is coming to you at 10 19 off the hook is here stay tuned
the telephone keeps ringing
i ripped it off the wall i cut myself while shaving now i can't make a call
it couldn't get much worse but if they could they would
bomb diddly bomb for the flesh to speak the worst i hope that's understood
We'll be right back.
Bye-bye.
Hello, can I speak to Mr. Don Quixote, please?
No, señor. Don Quixote y Sancho Panza no están aquí.
Hoy también siguen luchando.
No, señor.
Don Quixote y Sancho Panza.
No, señor. Don Quixote y Sancho Panza.
Hoy también siguen luchando.
But what's going on?
You've got to hold your brain, I feel crazy
No, señor, don Quijote y Sancho Pando no están aquí
Hello
No, no, don Quijote y Sancho Pando no están aquí
Don Quijote y Sancho Pando no están aquí
Don Quijote y Sancho Pando no están aquí
Hoy también siguen luchando
Don Quijote y Sancho Pando no están aquí
Hoy también siguen luchando
Vaya por Iquito
Interesting, I don't know what it is, but the phones are lighting up.
We haven't even asked for a penny yet, but maybe it's the song.
The song Don Quijote by magazine 60.
All kinds of telephone-related madness and computer-related madness and technological absurdities and things like that.
Sometimes it's inspirational, causes some of us to wake up, see things around us, see the bigger picture around us and you know a day like today when there's so much going on in the world and boy was there a lot going on, I mean enough to, enough to suit everybody local, national, international, interstellar, all kinds of things happening.
So, it's nice to be able to relate to the small things to the big things and to a lot of people, how our telephones work and how we shape the cyberspace around us.
It's kind of a personal thing, and hence kind of a trivial thing, doesn't really affect all that many people.
But, my friends, that is such a deceiving way of looking at it, you know?
Because how we think of the things that affect our personal lives translates to how we treat other people out there, what we expect of them, how we view the world.
And so, if you look at technology in a particular way, odds are you're going to look at certain events in the world in a certain way, too.
In other words, if you're a skeptic in one particular field, you'll be a skeptic in most things.
Very few people are gullible in one subject and completely knowledgeable in another.
It's not to say that it's possible to know everything there is to know about everything, it's not.
But as long as you know that there's always room for error, always the possibility that you're not being told the truth,
always the possibility that somebody's trying to put one over on you.
You know, there's no better place to learn that than with your telephone.
Because your telephone is run by a monopoly.
And despite all this talk about the phone company splitting up and offering choice,
well, that may be true, but that's only on a long-distance level.
Well, locally, you only get one dial tone from one company.
Whether it's New Jersey Bell, New York Telephone, Southern New England Telephone, what have you.
The fact is, they're really the only game in town.
Until something else comes along.
And you have to play by their rules.
There aren't many alternatives.
Oh, there are alternatives.
Like writing letters.
Using radio communication.
Face-to-face meetings.
But if you want the convenience of a telephone, you pretty much have to accept
the universe as the phone company believes it is.
And many times, that doesn't really jive with reality.
Now, fortunately, we have a bit more choice when it comes to looking at the world view.
There are different interpretations.
There's different sources of information.
And for the most part, we can search them out.
We can find interesting magazines, alternative radio stations.
We can usually find the other side.
Or sides.
But, the vast majority of Americans treat the world view as if it were the only game in town.
They accept, without any kind of question, what they're told.
By their leaders.
By their networks.
By those with commanding voices.
Now, obviously, there's a danger in that.
Of course, if you go out to buy a car and somebody tells you various things about this car that you're interested in buying
and you believe every word of it, you're going to get ripped off.
But, if you believe everything the phone company says, you'll get ripped off as well.
If you believe everything that you hear on the radio, on TV, and in various speeches and other calls to arms and things like that,
you'll get ripped off in another sense.
And we're here at WBAI to show you that there are other points of light.
There are other sources of light.
And they're almost infinite, I'd say.
Where is this all leading?
Well, obviously, we have a fundraiser today.
We need to raise quite a bit of cash or charge or checks or what have you.
Interesting how they all begin with C.
I wonder why that is.
But the reason we need to do this is so that we can continue to bring you alternative views.
Now, you've been listening to this radio station throughout the course of the day, if you have, that is.
You will have heard things that you wouldn't hear on any other radio station.
And I know some people out there, and some of these people are my friends.
They really are.
People that think the opinions expressed here on WBAI are nuts, crazy.
People must be out of their minds to say these kind of things.
What, question the government?
Question bombing a madman and sending troops in and ignoring concentration camps and various other U.S. policies?
Well, you know, whether you agree or not, you have to recognize the fact that these opinions need to be there.
Once you take away alternative opinions, you're left with a very scary animal.
You're left with a single-mindedness, which can be used for all kinds of nefarious schemes.
So I think it's in everybody's interest to keep that from happening, to keep alternative voices coming.
Because we're always going to hear something we disagree with, and we're always going to hear something we agree with at some point.
As long as we keep our ears open, what is guaranteed is that we will learn something.
Now, to get to technological alternative opinions, hasn't been a good week for me.
Lost a very, very dear friend this week.
Someone I had been accustomed to all of my life.
Someone I had grown up with.
My friend, the touch-tone, left me this week.
Now, I shouldn't say that, actually.
My friend, the touch-tone was taken from me.
What am I talking about, you're probably wondering.
Well, I woke up Monday morning and found that the phone company had turned off all of my touch-tones.
Actually, that's not true.
What I say is not true, because my touch-tones were still there.
Or, they had simply programmed their computers to ignore my touch-tones.
I would hit a tone, and the dial tone would still hum merrily on.
As if to say, what's that supposed to mean?
So, now I have to rotary pulse all of my phone calls, just like everybody had to back in the 50s and 60s.
And the reason for this is because I never paid their particular fee that they say is required for touch-tone service.
Never mind that it took all of this time for them to develop a computer program that could selectively control who had touch-tone service and who did not.
Before everybody had access to it, and now only the people that have fees, the only people that pay fees have access to it.
It's control of technology, and in a way it's theft of service, because most people pay for this particular service thinking they're paying for a service.
That's generally what you do when you pay for a service.
But in this particular case, you're paying not to have another service turned on.
And that service that gets turned on is the touch-tone snatcher service, which basically operates by the telephone company computer ignoring your touch-tones.
After all, remember, the tones don't belong to the phone company.
They belong to you. You make them. They come from your phone.
It's like the phone company putting a surcharge on high-pitched voices, saying it's a high-pitched voice service, or something like that.
It's like the phone company saying, well, certain numbers are more valuable than other numbers.
For instance, 9 is more valuable than 1, so we'll have to charge you more if you use the 9 key.
And we won't charge you as much to use the 1.
What you have to understand here is that the phone company will never, never lose an opportunity to charge you for something if they can get away with it.
And this is exactly what we've been covering here over the past few months.
Deception.
People being gullible and believing what they're told and not questioning.
Now, of course, with the phone company, as I said, it's a monopoly, so you don't really have all that much of a choice.
You have to accept it.
But, forums like this, and letters to editors, public service commission hearings, and things like that, allow us to at least get the topics out.
That's what we're doing here with this particular topic.
We're getting it out.
We're letting people know that it's maybe not a crime against humanity, but it is deception.
It is a rip-off.
It is victimizing people in a small way.
Now, by charging people $16 to install something that doesn't really exist, by charging people a monthly fee for a service that really isn't there,
and then multiplying that by all the businesses and people in New York City and the surrounding areas,
then you'll see that this little tiny thing really is something rather big.
Something we should be concerned with, something we should do something about.
Now, last week we demonstrated how technology can move backwards.
We made a local phone call and found that it took nearly five times as long to connect as a call to Sweden from the same area.
An example of technology moving backwards.
Well, here again, we see a potentially good thing.
We see technology coming forth with some advances, but then because of bureaucracy, because of short-sightedness, because of deception,
we're forced to move backwards.
And whether it's something major, like being forced backwards into military aggression,
where technology, for peaceful purposes, suffers,
or whether it's something minor, like having to use rotary pulse and take longer to make your phone calls,
it's the general thought that's still the same.
Selfishness, deception, and a lack of caring for the greater good.
Now, with regards to this particular situation, just a little tip,
because we provide these tips for people who might be in a similar situation,
you don't have to pay that fee.
Just remember that.
The vast majority of touch-tone phones will work on either pulse or tone,
and if the phone company doesn't want you to use touch-tones on their network,
you don't have to.
Simply dial the number in pulse,
and if you need to use tones after you're connected, you still can.
Of course, they'll make it seem as if you can't,
but if you want to call a voicemail system, a bank-by-phone system,
an alternative long-distance company,
it's only the initial call that you have to use pulse with.
You switch over to tone, and you're treated as an equal with everybody else.
Of course, this hurts the phone company, you know,
because more people are using pulse.
It takes longer to make the phone calls, but that's what they want.
Let's give it to them.
Enough said about that.
We have a special guest who will be joining us in just a little while.
Another freedom fighter in the electronic world.
But before we do that, before we go into some of the happenings of this week,
it's important that we get people to call in and show some support for alternative views,
whether it be technological alternative views or global alternative views.
WBAI exists for just that kind of thing.
For instance, what I just told you about the phone company,
do you think that would be allowed on, say, a talk radio station?
I won't mention any names, but any talk radio station in the city?
Well, if that talk radio station in the city didn't care that New York Telephone
would not advertise with them anymore because they were mortally offended,
we just mortally offended New York Telephone.
And I'll tell you, we mortally offend more companies on this particular program
than I think any other program around.
Because we have alternative views.
And very often alternative views are exactly what they don't want you to hear
because they're used to having only their version.
Question the phone company?
That's dangerous.
Next thing you know, they'll be overthrowing the government.
So, if you get something out of these alternative views,
whether it's learning how to use your phone more efficiently,
learning how to protect your privacy,
or any of the other thousands of things you'll hear on this radio station,
please give us a call now.
212-279-3400.
We have a special deal tonight.
And this is a special deal.
Just for off-the-hook listeners,
for a pledge of $70,
we're offering not only
a subscription to 2600,
the Hacker Quarterly,
which has just put out a new issue,
but
a 2600 t-shirt.
An official 2600 t-shirt.
No imitations.
White lettering on black.
And you'll stand out like
nobody's business.
But you have to call
212-279-3400.
Not so much for the material possessions.
We're donating this
because
we believe in WBAI as well.
Everybody who's here tonight
is donating something,
whether it be time, money,
material possessions.
Please call because
WBAI
means something to you.
Because without this radio station,
you'd be forced to listen
to the garbage,
whether it's
the same
incessant beat,
the same
singers that sound like
hinges on doors,
the same repetitious talk,
and the
same news headlines
read from the same
news wire
on every single station
in the city.
We don't do that.
We give you alternatives,
and sometimes it might
get you angry.
Sometimes it might get
lots of people angry.
But we're here to present
alternative views.
And if you have something
to say,
you're a hundred times
likelier to say it
on WBAI
than any other place.
Other places
really don't want
to hear from you.
They want you to buy
the products
that get advertised,
but
just stay out of their way,
please.
not so here.
We want to hear
from our listeners.
And we want to hear
from you now,
please.
212-279-3400.
We have three calls
on the line.
Let's give the folks
in Tally a run
for their money.
Let's make it
seven.
All right.
There's one.
There's two.
Another two.
And we'll have it.
212-279-3400.
Remember that deal
for a $70 pledge.
A full year
of 2600 Magazine,
The Hacker Quarterly.
Kind of the printed version
of what this radio show is.
Where virtually without fail,
four times a year,
48 pages of
of material
that gets passed around
at emergency corporate
board meetings.
Things they don't want
you to know about,
whether it be
radio frequencies,
phone company secrets,
computer back doors,
privacy invasions.
You know,
lots of people think
that computer hackers
are notorious
privacy snatchers.
And you get that impression
by watching mainstream media.
And because mainstream media
always needs a villain,
they latch on
to computer hackers.
An easy villain
and rather hard
for computer hackers
to stand up
and defend themselves.
Most of them are
fairly young people,
after all,
not really versed
in the skills
of defending themselves
against the media
and against corporate executives
and people like that.
But in actuality,
computer hackers
are probably
more responsible
for protecting privacy
than any other
group of people,
whether it be organized
or disorganized,
because whether
by intention or not,
they raise awareness.
They show you
how wide open
the doors really are.
Doors that
the people who own them
don't want you
to even know about.
Do you think
credit reporting agencies
want you to know
how easy it is
to look up
your credit rating
and look up
other people's
credit ratings?
Yeah,
you'll hear about
hackers doing it.
But what the stories
won't say
is that anybody
can do it
and anybody
does do it
all the time.
Here's a story
along those lines
having to do
with looking up
information.
This is the kind
of thing that
happens almost
on a weekly basis.
This comes from
the Boulder Daily
Camera of January
8, 1993.
A private investigator
and two police
employees have been
indicted by a
Denver grand jury
for improperly
obtaining the
criminal histories
of 8,559
individuals.
The private eye
paid $3 to $5
per search
and as much
as $1,300
per week.
Apparently he
kept really good
records.
The scheme
unraveled when
a co-worker
of the police
employee
who was doing
the snooping
became angry
that her colleague
was spending
so much time
looking up names
that she was
falling behind
in her regular
work.
So after seeing
a criminal history
format on her
screen
that she was
not supposed
to be using
the co-worker
turned her in.
A computer
log revealed
that on the
day she was
caught she
had run
checks on
95 people.
It turns out
that a
transaction
recording system
allowed
investigators
to reconstruct
all 8,559
criminal history
searches.
But you have
to wonder,
you know,
with such a
fantastic
system of
logging all
of that,
they couldn't
find the fact
that all these
people were
being investigated.
after all,
it's because
somebody turned
in a co-worker
that this was
ever discovered.
So that kind
of thing is
happening all
the time.
And if you
just look at
the symptoms
of a problem
and blame
the symptom
for the problem
itself,
you'll never
solve the
problem.
How many times
do we have to
learn this
lesson?
a lot of
money.
And in fact,
when I mention
that to people
and they say,
so,
that communist
radio station
you work for,
how much money
do you think
you're going to
pull in?
And you say
$350,000.
They say,
wow,
you guys are
raking in the
money.
But think of
it in this way.
$350,000,
we have three
pledge drives a
year.
Let's say we
bring in about
that much for
each pledge
drive.
That's a
million dollars
a year.
I don't know
about you,
but you can't
really run a
radio station in
the middle of
New York City
on a million
dollars a year.
I don't think
any other
radio station
in this city
is able to
survive on a
budget anywhere
close to that.
And there's a
reason for that.
There's a reason
why we're able
to survive so
long on so
little money.
It's because we
don't really pay
anybody here.
We don't pay
people to be
on-air personalities
or studio
engineers or any
of the other
hundreds of
tasks that
people do.
We all do it
because we
want to,
because we
recognize the
need for
alternatives.
So come join
us.
Recognize that
need.
212-279-3400.
Take advantage
of the special
offer for a
$70 pledge.
$70, you'll
get a 2600
t-shirt filled
with all kinds
of hacker
articles and
clippings in a
most artistic
way, and a
full year of
2600 magazine
delivered wherever
you want us to
deliver it.
Not only that,
but you'll get
the WBAI folio,
which is really
the only way to
know what's on
when.
And that's
something that's
true of people
here at the
radio station as
well.
It's the only way
to know what's
happening, is to
look at the
folio.
212-279-3400.
We have open
lines.
All right, let's
take a look at
what's going on
in the rest of
the computer
world.
All kinds of
fascinating
developments and
foul-ups and
blunders and
things like that.
You know, the
passing leap year
caught several
New Zealand bank
customers short.
This was a
couple of
Thursdays ago,
when the bank's
money machines
refused to
process their
transactions.
The managing
director said
that a faulty
date-checking
routine had
corrupted the
magnetic strip
on the
customer's
money machine
cards.
Yeah, the
fault had to
do with the
fact that
1992 was a
leap year,
and that
Thursday was
the 366th
and last day
of the year.
Now, the
money machines
were programmed
to acknowledge
the extra day,
but instead of
the year 1992
being encoded,
the figure
02 was used.
Now, the
problem became
apparent about
10 a.m.
on Thursday and
covered a period
from midnight to
noon that day
when it was
finally fixed.
Only those
customers who
made two
separate transactions
during the
period were
initially affected.
The first
transaction went
through, but
that problem
occurred when
their cards were
inserted a second
time.
According to
the spokesman,
all customers who
used their cards
during the 12
hours, possibly
about 10,000,
are now carrying
corrupted cards.
Okay.
And we have
this.
News reports
indicated that
the Ross Perot
campaign is being
investigated by
the FBI,
Secret Service,
and Federal Trade
Commission for
allegedly using
stolen computer
codes to obtain
credit reports
on some
campaign workers.
Investigators
refused to
discuss the case,
the former
Perot campaign
employees Equifax,
the credit
reporting company,
and Oryx Consumer
Leasing of
Secaucus, New
Jersey, admitted
having spoken to
investigators.
Equifax said at
least 17 credit
files of former
Perot campaign
workers may have
been accessed
illegally.
Some Equifax
reports were
obtained using
the security code
of Oryx, which
claims to never
have requested the
credit reports on
Perot volunteers.
Officials at
Oryx and Equifax
have said they
believe Oryx's
security codes were
stolen.
And more
reassuring computer
news, the B-767
aircraft suffers
repeated failures of
the computer that
controls the
individual passenger
lights and sound.
Ever have problems
with those kind of
things on an airplane?
Well, now you know.
It's a computer.
Unlike earlier
aircraft, all the
switches on the
armrests, including
the individual light
switches, sound
channel and volume,
and a tendon call
button are controlled
by a computer.
On a recent flight,
according to this
contributor in the
Risks Digest, from
Milan to Washington,
the computer wedged
shortly into the
flight, although one
attendant figured that
the situation would
have to wait until the
plane landed, another
managed to reset the
computer.
According to the
attendants, these
computer problems
happen all the time.
may not be a life
threatening situation
this time, but it's
something to be
concerned with when
computers fail on
airplanes.
And we have another
scam here.
Value Rent-A-Car
rigged its computer
system to set up a
scam overcharging
customers who return
their cars with less
than a full tank,
according to a federal
indictment.
The indictment
returned on Friday
says Stephen Cohen,
one of three former
owners charged, fixed
Value's computer system
in 1988 to add five
gallons to the fuel
tank capacity of every
vehicle in Value's
fleet.
This allowed the
company to overcharge
customers who turn in
the car with less than
a full tank.
Federal prosecutor
Lothar Genge,
why be afraid to have
him after me,
Lothar Genge said that
through 1991 about
47,000 customers were
slapped with a phony
charge, which ranged
from a couple of
dollars to $10 or
$15.
Mitsubishi Motor
Sales bought the
company in 1990 and
is looking for ways to
pay back the overcharges.
Isn't that nice?
And what else do we
have?
Nintendo.
The government is
probing claims of
health hazards to
children playing
computer games like
Nintendo.
The informal inquiry
follows reports that
two boys in Cardiff
have been struck down
with epileptic fits.
That's Nintendo, yes.
And, according to a
troubleshooting talk
show in Denver, a
caller called in to
complain that his
license had been
revoked and he had to
leave his car since he
couldn't drive.
Apparently he had
renewed his driver's
license recently, which
is required every three
years in Colorado.
At that time, a
database check was
made of the other
49 states.
There was a match
based on birth date
and name.
The other person
with the same name
and birth date had a
suspended Pennsylvania
driver's license based
on a drunk driving
conviction.
It seems every week we
read a story like this.
Based on that match,
his license was
summarily revoked.
Notice was mailed to
him to that effect.
He, by the way, never
received that notice, he
says.
The license showed
revoked at a routine
traffic stop sometime
later.
It's not clear how
automatic the revocation
process is.
In any case, no hearing
is offered before the
revocation.
The driver was
especially upset because
he had had a Colorado
driver's license for 25
years.
He had never been to
Pennsylvania, and he
didn't drink.
The burden is
apparently upon him to
prove the Colorado
Department of Motor
Vehicles that they had
the wrong man.
At present, he is still
fighting the organization
trying to get his
license reinstated.
Time after time, we
hear these stories about
computers that decide
things for us, and we
must pay the
consequences.
And finally, finally, we
have a story here.
Because of a computer
problem, thousands of
college students have
been sent notices
ordering them to begin
repaying loans that
aren't due.
It's according to a
loan processing company
in St. Paul,
Minnesota.
Shirley Chase, an
attorney for EduServe
Technologies, formerly
known as Hemor
Corporation, said
problems with a new
computer system caused
a backlog in processing
student requests to
defer payments.
She said the company
hopes to clear up the
backlog by the end of
February.
More than 10,000
deferment forms are
backlogged, she said.
Because of the
backlog, some students
who are entitled to
postpone their loan
payments have gotten
notices urging them
to pay, and some have
been contacted by a
collection agency.
Chase said, EduServe
has bent over
backward to make sure
no adverse credit
reports are filed with
credit bureaus because
of the delay.
EduServe processes
loans issued by banks
and other lenders.
Unbelievable.
Well, how much are we
going to take?
How much will we allow
ourselves to be
controlled, manipulated
like the very data
itself?
Well, if you keep your
eyes open, if you ask a
lot of questions, you
might get some people
angry, but you will get
answers, you will get
education.
All right.
We're at just about the
halfway mark.
Not just about the
halfway mark for the
program, but about the
halfway mark for our goal.
We need to hear from
more people at 212-279-3400.
If you support the kinds
of things we bring you
on the airways here at
WBAI, then give us a
call and show that
support.
212-279-3400.
We're going to be back
in a couple of minutes
with a special guest and
with other information.
Again, let me point out
that anybody calling in
pledging $70 will get an
entire year of 2600
magazine plus an
official non-imitation
2600 t-shirt that
hackers all over the
world wear.
The cause for all kinds
of talk.
You'll be pointed out.
You'll stand out like a
sore thumb if that's the
kind of thing you want.
Otherwise, you can wear
a shirt over it.
All right.
We'll be back in just a
moment with a special
guest.
Again, that phone number,
very important phone
number, 212-279-3400.
Thank you.
I ain't gonna work on
Maggie's farm no more.
I ain't gonna work on
Maggie's farm no more.
Well, I wake up in the
morning for my hands to
break the rain.
I got a head full of
ideas and they're driving
me insane.
It's a shame the way she
makes me scrub the floor.
I ain't gonna work on
Maggie's farm no more.
I ain't gonna work for
Maggie's brother no more.
I ain't gonna work for
Maggie's brother no more.
Well, he throws you a penny
and he thinks he's so kind.
He asks you with a grin if
you're having a good time
and he finds you every time
you slam the door.
I ain't gonna work for
Maggie's brother no more.
I ain't gonna work for
Maggie's farm no more.
I ain't gonna work for
Maggie's farm no more.
Well, he puts his cigar out in
your face just for kicks.
He's paid through the window
which is paid out of
bricks.
The National Front stands
behind those doors.
I ain't gonna work for
Maggie's farm no more.
I ain't gonna work for
Maggie's farm no more.
I ain't gonna work for
Maggie's farm no more.
When she talks to all the
servants of our man and
God and law, everybody says
that she's the brains behind
it all.
She's 68, but she says
she's 54.
I ain't gonna work for
Maggie's farm no more.
I ain't gonna work for
Maggie's farm no more.
Well, I try my best to be
just like I am, but everybody
wants you to be just like
them.
They say, sing while you
slay, but I just get bored.
I ain't gonna work for
Maggie's farm no more.
That's a fairly little-known selection
by the group The Specials.
We're doing the Dylan Masterpiece Maggie's Forum here on WBAI New York,
where the news will not be on tonight,
even though this is an incredible news day,
but we have a special marathon edition of Off the Hook.
We'll be going until midnight.
Of course, if anything does happen relating to our world events,
we'll certainly break in to bring those to you, as we always do.
We're here because we need to raise money so that we can keep going.
We have quite a phenomenal goal that we have to meet for this entire marathon,
but our goal here tonight is not all that unreachable,
and it'll become all the less so if we get a flurry of calls now.
212-279-3400.
We've got Jim Thomas, who is the editor of Computer Underground Digest,
on the line with us.
We'll be joining him in just a moment
to talk about all kinds of other issues involving the world of computers,
the Internet, First Amendment, and the future, and all that kind of thing.
There aren't really very many places you can hear information like that,
and without BAI, there wouldn't be any.
And if you did hear about these things, it would be so seldom, so little,
and none of us would benefit from it.
So your support, although it may seem like it's not all that much,
if you pledge $25, pledge $50, you might think that's nothing.
It's something. It all adds up.
We're well over $20,000 for the day, I believe.
I think that's a figure I saw before.
And every pledge adds up.
So if we get all those lines lit, 212-279-3400,
that'll be about $1,000 coming in just like that.
Think about it. You can start it.
You can start this whole motion.
2-7-9-3400, area code 2-1-2.
Take advantage of the special deal we're offering tonight where you'll get a subscription to the Hacker Magazine, 2600, and a 2600 t-shirt,
plus the WBAI folio for a pledge of $70.
But we do accept pledges of any amount.
And we also take Visa and MasterCard,
and we've got one phone call on the line.
If we can get that up to, say, three phone calls.
Three phone calls.
I don't think that'll be too much to ask.
I mean, this is the city of New York, right?
New York City, and New Jersey, and Connecticut, and Long Island.
Surely, within all that area, there's two other people.
Two other people that can call in and help us make that goal.
Take advantage of the special offer.
You know, it's not entirely painful.
In fact, it's not painful at all, because I've been through this myself.
I've supported this radio station.
I've supported other radio stations on occasion, too.
And it never has hurt me yet.
You know, it feels like you're doing something,
and that, you know, it's better than voting.
It really is, because it's more selective.
You're picking something out, and you're saying,
yes, I'm going to support this.
I'm going to make this stronger.
It's an investment, an investment in our future.
We don't have any commercials on this radio station,
and we never will.
We can't.
It's against everything we stand for.
But we need something to replace those commercials.
We need sponsors of a different kind,
and our listeners are the best sponsors we can possibly have.
212-279-3400.
We can continue to keep freedom of speech alive
on the FM airwaves in New York City,
but it's going to take some help.
You know, we've gone this far.
We've made it from the 1960s to now.
Everybody told us, we're fools.
We can't do this.
We can't run a huge radio station
in the middle of the FM dial,
50,000 watts in the most expensive city in the planet.
Well, we did it.
And the only reason we did it
was because our listeners were there for us.
And if you're hearing my voice,
you're a listener.
That's right, you're a listener.
And you can become part of this.
You already are a part of this by listening.
Now, make it a two-way street.
Show your support.
Make us stronger.
And we'll show our appreciation
by continuing to bring you
these alternative views,
continuing to bring you news
that you would not hear anyplace else,
and in a more materialistic sense,
sending you some kind of neat things.
T-shirts, magazines,
program schedules,
that kind of thing.
But most of all,
you'll be helping out this radio station.
You'll be making us stronger.
Ordinarily, we have the rebroadcast
of the evening news here.
And because things went haywire today,
we're running a little bit late,
and this is a special edition as well
of this program.
So the news isn't on tonight,
but 24 hours a day,
this station is bringing you
alternatives of some kind,
whether it be news,
music,
interviews,
public affairs shows,
arts shows,
and incredible diversity.
We need your support,
and we need it now.
I know a lot of people like to wait,
you know,
they like to postpone things.
But,
you know,
when you postpone things,
lots of times you don't get it done,
ever.
It's true, you know.
So,
do you see a telephone
within sight?
If you do,
then there's really
nothing stopping you.
Give us a call,
212-279-3400.
Your choice.
You can bill it to Visa or MasterCard,
or you can have us send you
a little reminder,
and support us
in that particular way.
Again,
a pledge of $70
will get you
a
2600
t-shirt
and a subscription
to the magazine
for a full year.
But we have other things, too.
And we have a room
filled with volunteers.
And right now,
we have five open lines,
which means there's five volunteers
who feel awfully left out.
Let's, uh,
make their night worthwhile.
They came in here,
they volunteered their time,
and they're sitting by a phone.
Each one has their own
special phone.
212-279-3400.
You'll make a lot of people happy.
All right.
Let's, uh,
go to Jim Thomas,
who, uh,
is out in, uh,
Chicago, is it?
Yeah, I'm out in DeKilb.
How you doing?
How you doing?
You're the, uh,
editor at Poe Editor.
Yeah, kind of cool.
I was just listening
to that whole rap there,
and, uh,
maybe just to do a quick diversion,
make a pitch.
What do you get for that $70?
Uh, for $70,
we're giving away
the, uh,
2600 t-shirt
and a full year subscription.
Wow, so basically
for that, uh,
$70,
you get basically
$70 worth of merchandise,
almost.
Well, it's not,
it's not quite $70,
but, uh, you know,
it's, it's not, uh,
that number is never
supposed to really, uh,
really match.
It's a donation, you know,
but we're trying to give back
as much as possible.
Fantastic black
with nice, great silver
on the front and back
and the, uh,
the headlines, uh,
to steal.
$70 a total steal.
Yeah.
2600 is worth it.
Uh,
so you're the, uh,
the coer...
2-2-1-2-2-7-9-3-4-100.
You know,
one thing we're going to,
we're going to spend money on
is this phone system,
because we can't talk
two ways at once
for some reason,
but let me just say,
you're, you're the co-editor
of, uh,
Computer Underground Digest.
Yeah, CU Digest, cut.
Now, when did that get started?
It started about 1990.
We came out of the, uh,
Neidorf and Len Rose problems.
Uh-huh.
Uh, a couple of guys
were busted.
Uh, two related,
but separate charges,
and, uh,
Len was, I believe,
in January of 1990.
And actually,
Greg went down
about the same time,
but, uh,
he came up for trial
in, in June of 1990.
Uh, one was
an alleged hacker case,
and the other was, uh,
an alleged theft
of copyright,
uh,
proprietary information case.
And we started
because Pat Townsend,
who was putting out
a, uh, newsletter,
electronic newsletter
called Telecom Digest,
couldn't handle the overflow,
so we volunteered
to pick up, uh,
just some of the, uh,
Len Rose and Craig
related material,
and, uh,
just kept going.
You know, we kept,
we thought it was going to be
for a couple of weeks,
and next thing we knew,
it's 1993,
and we're talking to you.
This is, uh,
kind of like a nightline story,
you know,
that they start as a result
of one crisis,
and it just keeps going forever.
Yeah, very similar.
And, uh,
problem is that
the nightline crisis
kind of ended,
and as you made very clear
in your, uh,
pitch for the money
that, uh,
these kinds of crises,
the, uh,
the need to keep
information free,
and to, uh,
push for support
just never ends.
I should point out
that we have
three calls on the line,
which is, uh,
it's good to see,
but, uh,
there's seven lines
all together,
and I'd like to see.
It'd be really nice,
make me feel good,
I'm on my way to Texas
tomorrow to cover
the Steve Jackson trial.
It'd be nice if
when I'm on that plane,
because I hate planes,
if I could just think back
at WBAI and say,
hey,
I got a bingo,
I got all those lines lit,
and you can,
you can help.
There's, uh,
we only need four people
out there to join hands,
or you don't even have
to join hands,
just dial or push your
buttons or whatever,
212-279-3400,
pledge what you can afford,
show your support
for WBAI,
and, uh,
you'll help us out,
you'll, you'll make
people here happy,
you'll make, uh,
you'll make future
listeners happy,
because they don't know,
they don't know what,
uh, WBAI is yet,
they haven't yet heard it,
but new people tune in
every day, you know,
they hear us for the
first time,
and they,
they wonder how a station
like this can possibly
survive,
and it's simply by
people like you,
people like you out there,
showing your support
and calling up,
212-279-3400,
please don't delay
that call.
Now, Jim, uh,
with Computer Underground
Digest,
it's distributed primarily
over the internet,
correct?
Yeah, it's, uh,
exclusively over internet,
if anybody wants,
we can send out hard copies,
or we can put the stuff
on disk and send it to them,
we hate to do it,
because we're non-profit,
and, uh, uh,
unlike radio,
that we can do it
at a lower overhead,
but the,
the disks and the time
still come out of our
pockets,
we, we,
we do kind of hate to do it.
I hope you don't mind
as, uh,
try to make a connection
to what you're all
doing there,
and that's,
what we're doing
doesn't cost a lot of money,
what you're doing
does cost a lot of money,
and as one who's been
involved in public radio,
the whole notion of,
of struggle being
as long as history,
uh,
can't be overstated,
it costs, uh,
costs a few bucks
to keep you guys going.
So I'm just making a pitch
that people ought to
call that number
and, uh,
plug in,
because information,
like you say,
is crucial,
free information,
keeping the public
informed,
and without things
like WBAI
and their counterparts
throughout the country,
we'd be screwed.
That's true.
And, uh,
listener-supported
means just that.
And, like Johnny Mitchell
says,
we don't know what we got
until it's gone,
so, uh.
Yeah, and if,
if BAI were gone,
uh, there'd certainly
be a gap in the, uh,
in, in,
in the radio world
here in New York.
Uh, there aren't
stations like this
in most parts
of the country,
and, uh,
that's why you gotta
hold on to,
to what you got
while you have it.
Well, it's part of the
whole notion of the
computer revolution
and what, uh,
what CUD tries to do.
I know what you try to
do with 2600
and what others
are also involved in
is keeping the
information flowing.
And there's a lot
of obstacles to it,
primarily the, uh,
vested interests,
uh, whether they be
the, uh, uh,
corporate capitalist
type or, or just
simply the, the
hangers-on,
the wannabes
who, uh,
make their, their, uh,
bucks as lackeys
and sycophants.
And, uh, uh,
one thing that
CUD tries to do
is not just simply
get the information
but raise some
of the issues
and, uh, uh,
again, a bit like
2600 challenge
and tweak when we
can.
Uh-huh.
Now, uh,
when you first got
started with this,
obviously you had no
idea it was gonna,
it was gonna last
this long.
Now, after three or
so years of, uh,
publishing CUD
or CUD, um,
are you left
with, uh, with,
with a more, I
guess, cynical look
at the way things
work, uh, the way
people are, are put
on trial for various
offenses, or do you
think there's,
there's hope?
No, I'm out of the
60s and, uh, uh,
well, there's two of
us, Gordon Meyer
is the co-editor
and he's, uh, a good,
strong, uh, Clinton
Democrat and I'm, uh,
uh, a little more
to the left than
that and, uh, we,
we tend to balance
each other out.
So, no, I'm, I'm
not, I'm not cynical
or jaundiced in that
sense, at least
anymore.
So, the one thing
we've seen in the,
um, what we call
the cyber, cyberspace
law, cyberspace
control is simply,
well, I've got a
couple of things
going on.
First of all, you
have your economic
interests, but more
than that, I think
there's more latitude
for your hungry,
young, up-and-coming,
abrasive, cynical,
young prosecutors
and people like them,
law enforcement
officers.
Uh, not a lot, but
just a few, you
know, like, just as
in, uh, regular
crime, it's that
10%, uh, the bad
apples that create
the critical mass
that make things
tough for everybody
else, the Bill
Cooks of the world.
Bill Cook being the,
uh, prosecutor.
Bill Cook was the
prosecutor in the, uh,
Craig Neidorf case.
Uh, Craig Neidorf was
the fellow who was
busted, uh, for
publishing an alleged
stolen E911 document
in frack, which was an
online, uh, electronic
digest.
And you get people like
Bill Cook, who, in my
opinion, uh, tend to
abuse their power for
whatever their own
personal motivation is,
I won't guess, but they
do, I would argue, very
strongly abuse their
power.
And because of the
vacuum in definitions,
the vacuum in, in, uh,
uh, what people think
ought or ought not
occur in cyberspace,
you have a lot of room
for these, uh, ambitious
types to come in and,
and manipulate and kind of
try to make careers for
themselves.
So that's one of the
things that, that I see
that, uh, is frustrating.
You know, and you have a
lot of idealistic
prosecutors as well,
idealistic law enforcement
types, and, uh, I think
part of the role of, of the,
um, cybernauts of the
21st century is to try to
educate them.
Uh-huh.
It's okay not to
prosecute every single
hacker case you come
across, every single
piracy case you come
across.
So one of the things we
try to do is try to
try to very strongly
argue against the
criminalization of all
sorts of behaviors, to
include especially
hackers.
The demonization of
hackers, you know,
creating this image of
the, the, the dread
hacker menace, uh, for
the Forbes magazine
piece of about, uh,
21, December 92.
I think, I think we all
saw that one.
But I should point out
that with the, uh, with
the Craig Neidorf case
that you mentioned, uh,
the government dropped
the case against him.
However, uh, he was
still faced with, uh, a
huge amount of legal
bills and was put into
debt to the tune of
about a hundred
thousand dollars.
He's still paying that
off.
And, and, and many
cases when you're put on
trial for something like
this, even if you're
completely cleared of all
wrongdoing, you're still
punished.
And that's, that's what's
bad.
That's something that, uh,
you know, that needs to
be addressed.
Uh, but I'd like to ask
you, uh, as, as editor of
an online publication,
speak to somebody out
there that, that doesn't
have a computer, somebody
that, uh, doesn't see the
significance of what's
going on out there in the
computer world.
Why should they care?
We deal with this a lot
here.
Uh, I teach at a place
called Northern Illinois
University, and most of
the people here are not
computer literate.
And one of the, uh,
continual issues we have
to push is that when we
talk about cyber rights,
that is the, the kinds of
constitutional and other
protections that we take
for granted in our
ordinary life that ought be
extended into this thing
called cyberspace, uh, that
we're not really talking
about a small group of
people.
We're talking about the
rights of the entire
populace.
Because when we begin to
talk about things like
copyright law, freedom of
information, privacy, and
other rights that we take
for granted, we're talking
about things that are
gradually affecting
everybody.
Uh, there's, I can't
think of any domain of, of
public or private life in
which the issues of
cyberspace, uh, don't
apply.
Take, for example, privacy.
Why should the average
non-computer user be
concerned about privacy
is because the privacy
issues, the means of
processing information are
so easy to do, are so
quick, are so readily
available to the, um, uh,
I want to say con
artist, but the dangers
aren't really from the
con artist as much as
they are from the, from
the huckster, the
marketeer, the, uh, the
profiteer, that the ways
of manipulating, using,
creating profiles about
people affect us all.
So even if we don't use
computers, we're still
affected by computers.
We're still affected by
things like copyright.
Um, uh, I, I think a
classic example would be
say, I teach, and if I
want to use a, uh, try to
make an analogy here, if
I want to, if I want to
use a Xerox copy of a
journal article, that's
fairly easy to do in a
class under fair use
doctrine, and that is
under, um, a legal
doctrine that says, you
know, if you don't
stretch things too far,
you can now use other
people's copyright material,
their so-called
intellectual property.
What you cannot do,
because of the changing
laws, uh, uh, with
electronic intellectual
property, is do the
equivalent of a Xerox with
a copyright disc.
So as we move into this
computer age, when the
laws affecting computer
technology become
increasingly limited and
restrictive, and when
they tend to criminalize
behaviors, that in the
past were either not
criminalized, or at
worse, were just a, uh,
what they call a tort,
just a, uh, uh, a minor
screw-up of sorts.
We're talking about laws
that affect everybody.
I don't know if that's
too general for you.
Well, I think, uh, I
like to hear from people
that, uh, you know, that
have no real computer
background, uh, and see
what they think about, uh,
about these kind of
things, you know, as far
as, uh, you know, freedom
in the computer world, how
does that affect freedom
in, in the, the real
world?
And I think it's, you
know, it's pretty obvious
to me that, uh, it's,
it's very closely knit.
Um, let me ask you,
though, since, uh, you
are the editor of this,
or co-editor of this,
uh, publication, do you
get much, uh, much
feedback, any negative
feedback from people that
think that, uh, you go
too far?
Yeah, sure.
It's not too, but we
try to keep it balanced.
You know, like I said,
Gordon and I are, um, a
co-editor are, um, uh, a
bit at odds and a bit,
um, you know, politically
very different.
So we wind up in the
middle of the road, which
is frustrating, I'm sure,
for both of us.
So, um, you know, the
problem with that, that
middle line, uh, saves us
a lot of criticism.
But, you know, there are
some people out there who
think that, um, uh, son of
Sam and the average hacker
probably belong in the same
jail cell.
And that, uh, you know,
hackers are, are literally
demons and, uh, we just
got a piece, uh, a
criticism the other day
responding to our own
criticism of a Forbes
magazine piece that we
mentioned earlier.
Uh-huh.
What, what kind of
criticism did you get?
Uh, this was essentially
saying that we're so
involved in the, the, uh,
hacker underground that
we can't see straight.
And, you know, just,
just this kind of nonsense
from, uh, I think the
critics of hackers did
take, they tend to take
far more, uh, personally
oriented attacks and, uh,
highly, highly ideological,
far more so than, um, uh,
the other side.
Uh-huh.
And I should mention that
we're neither pro nor
anti-hacker.
We're civil, civil rights
oriented, so when you ask
why the average person who
doesn't use a computer
should be concerned, it's
because we're talking
about civil rights now,
computer rights.
Well, now.
And all of the rights
that deal with computers
really tie back into
civil rights.
And what we're doing is
really creating law for
the next, uh, you know,
we're moving in, a lot of
people have missed this,
I guess, we're moving to
the 21st century.
And, uh, we have to,
you know, pull a lot of
people on kicking and
screaming.
Now, it's interesting
you mentioned this, uh,
with the civil liberties
and all.
How tied in do you think,
uh, uh, things like, uh,
the ACLU, groups like
that, are they computer
literate?
Do they know what's going
on?
Do they see the
implications?
Some do.
Uh, Laurie Jan
Goldman does, or Jan
Laurie Goldman does,
and, uh, as an
organization now, they're
all, you know, they're
diverse, and they have
to pick their fights.
Unfortunately, when you
have so many repressive
forces out there, and,
and the whole reason
you have to do
fundraising is because
we have limited
resources.
And with limited
resources, you have to
be very careful.
You can't really go out
and, and, uh, fight all
the, all the just fights.
You have to be selective,
and the ACLU is very
selective.
Just as we are
selective, we don't deal
with, uh, you know,
racism in schools.
We deal with racism on the
nets, or sexism on the
nets, or, or whatever.
And, uh, so, you know, we do
have our own domains, and
unfortunately, we tend to
see them as divided up,
but in fact, they're
over, overlapping.
I think the biggest flaw is
that we're not, we're not
united.
We do, you have EFF and
CPS, you have, you have
various groups out there
like, um, that fight for
cyber, cyber rights, like
the Electronic Frontier
Foundation, which is EFF.
Right.
And computers for, um, um,
uh, um, uh, CPSR.
Computer Professionals for
Social Responsibility,
right.
Well, that's a, that's a
good lead-in.
First of all, we're talking
with, uh, Jim Thomas,
co-editor of Computer
Underground Digest.
Jim, why don't you tell
us, first of all, uh, how
people can, uh, can
subscribe, both online,
and, uh, you mentioned
something about people who
don't have computers.
Yeah, if they don't have
a computer, they can drop
me a note at Jim Thomas
or C-U-D.
Department of Sociology,
Northern Illinois
University, DeKalb, D-E-K-A-L-B,
Illinois, 60115.
And, uh, they're free.
We don't, um, uh, we can't
charge.
We're simply not allowed to
charge, so there's no
cost for it.
Uh, if they wanted on
discs, they would have to
send the discs, because we
can't afford any longer to
give out.
We used to send the discs
out, but they'd have to
send their own discs.
But preferably if they're
already on the internet,
how would they subscribe
then?
On the internet, in one
of two ways.
Either send a note to
T-K-0-J-U-T-1-AT.
And AT is that funny sign
over the two.
At M as in Mary, V as in
very, S-M-V-S dot C-S-O, not
zero, but O, C-S-O, N-I-U dot
E-D-U.
It's T-K-0-J-U-T-2 at M-V-S dot
C-S-O dot N-I-U dot E-D-U.
Or they can drop a note to
J-Thomas at well, W-E-L-L dot S-F dot
C-A dot U-S.
Yeah, that last one seems much
friendlier than the first one.
The first one was very cryptic with
all those letters and signs and
things like that.
But what you'll get in return is
something that is not cryptic,
something that's very
straightforward and doesn't cost
anything either.
Yeah, we come at one, so that
comes back to your thing.
The reason we don't cost
anything is because we've got
people around here who donate
their time.
They donate something of
themselves.
If nothing else, just a bit of
back-turning to let us go on.
So it's, again, that notion of
struggle being as long as
history, and you have to kick in
a few bucks, whether it's to turn
your back to let us do a few
things here, or whether it's
sending five bucks into WBAI.
Right.
Well, now, we seem to be at kind of
a stagnant point here.
It's, we only have a half hour
left, but we have quite a lot of
money to make in that half hour,
and we need people to help us
out here.
We have to raise about $500 in
half an hour, and that's a lot.
Now, we have either one or two
calls on the line.
I'm not sure if those are social
calls or what, but we're not sure
here, but we want to fill up those
phone lines.
212-279-3400.
Two calls on the line right now.
Let's make that seven.
Please, we can do it.
We need to do it.
It's not really a question of, you
know, something we'd like to do.
We really have to.
We're not doing this because we're
making anything out of it
ourselves.
We don't get a commission.
Nothing like that happens.
We have to raise a certain amount,
or quite simply, we can't continue
doing the things that we're doing
right now.
Off the Hook is on every week from
10 to 11, and we bring you
information that no other program
on this station brings you, and
certainly no other program at any
other station would bring you.
In fact, I doubt there's a program
like this anywhere else in the
country.
Without BAI, a lot that people have
learned would be impossible.
You wouldn't know how telephones
really work.
You wouldn't know about the civil
liberties issues going on in the
computer underground and the
computer world in general.
You wouldn't know about the threat
that violations of those rights
could pose to you.
You wouldn't know about the dangers
that computers can cause to you if
left unchecked, if we trust things
too much.
212-279-3400, please.
Let's get those phone lines lit.
We're offering you a special deal
for a $70 pledge, a 2600
subscription for an entire year, and
a 2600 t-shirt in addition to
WBAI paraphernalia.
212-279-3400.
We take Visa and MasterCard, so it's
relatively painless if you pay it off
in large time periods.
We do need to hear from you, though.
We have not gotten a call yet.
212-279-3400.
We still got those two phone calls on
and have been on for quite some time.
Either they're donating lots of money
or they're just talking casually.
Let's make that seven phone calls.
212-279-3400.
We have Jim Thomas on the line.
Jim is the co-editor of Computer
Underground Digest, and he's joining us
now from Illinois, and Jim, when people
don't pay attention to things, lots of
times bad things happen, like bad laws
get passed.
Any examples of that you can come up
with over the past few years?
Yeah, I think most computer laws are bad
laws because they tend to overgeneralize
the kinds of things that can be
criminalized.
Let me take a step back.
I'm a criminologist, which means I study
things like crime and prison and all the
rest.
One of the things that bothers me, especially
in the last 20 years, is our tendency to
make crimes out of behaviors for which
there are many alternatives other than
to punish by invoking a criminal sanction.
In other words, you don't have to toss
somebody.
Do you have a...
This is live.
Do you have a lag button?
I have to watch the language, huh?
Yeah, actually, you know, it's funny.
Our lag button is gone.
Somebody took the lag button away.
I don't know why they did, but somebody
did that.
I'll try to be careful.
You get laws that are pretty screwy, and
right now, as I'm sure we all know, that
our prison population has pretty almost, not
quite, but almost gone over the one
million mark, and we have approximately
2% of the adult population, of the adult
male population, is under some form of
correctional supervision.
That's one out of 50.
That's a lot of people.
Yeah, and, you know, it's hard to imagine
that there's that many crimes to go around,
you know?
Well, one of the problems is we make more
crimes, and primarily the introduction of new
crimes, or of new statutes that criminalize or turn
what used to be torts into, or civil offenses into
criminal offenses, or intensifying previous crimes,
such as drug driving, this type of thing, increasing the
sanctions for drugs.
What we've done is create what I would call a, basically,
an incarceral nation.
We're essentially a nation of prisoners, because we have a,
we've passed critical mass of people who are in prison.
A million people, that's a lot of people, Manuel.
Wow.
So, and when you add to that the people who are under some
form of supervision, and you add to that the people in
jails, and you add to that the people who are no longer under
supervision, but have been, we're talking about a sizable
chunk of the population.
So, when you ask about bad laws, we're not talking about
computer here, we're talking about, basically, we're talking
about the public well-being, that anybody could be lagged for a
crime for any reason, whether it's drunk driving, whether under,
something I'll talk about in a second, under the new
copyright laws, we are finding ways to criminalize what we do in
ways that lead to a highly repressive criminal justice system.
Okay, so point one, we're becoming a nation of prisoners,
an incarceral nation.
So, what that means is that the cause has been twofold.
First of all, in the view that we can control behavior by
punishing it, not simply through education, we pay lip service to
education, but primarily, we control behavior by punishing it.
Beat them over the head, coercion.
We take a lot of, I suppose, we have, as a society, a very cynical view of
the nature of human nature.
We think that we really can't treat, or teach, or rehabilitate, or
whatever. So, we've moved into this very repressive, punitive philosophy.
To do that, it means we pass laws.
Some of these laws, we all know, drug laws, increasingly strict drug laws,
increasingly strict drug driving laws, for our purposes, laws against so-called
computer abuse, computer intrusion. In other words, you can't really hack into
somebody else's computer under federal law, or it's a heavy-duty felony.
You can't transport, in quotes, a stolen document across state lines, or that's a
heavy-duty felony. Now, that sounds pretty serious, transporting stolen stuff
across state lines. But, in fact, what we've done with the new cyber law is create
not just simply new laws, but new definition. What counts as property? What
counts as theft? If you hack into my computer and take out a note, if you take
out my laundry list, technically, that is my property. I think we'd all agree with
that. If you send it across state lines, well, I still have my property right here.
But, essentially, what we've done is make this the same kind of an offense as if you
had broken in and stolen my computer itself. It's a felony.
And that leaves you with an almost infinite amount of crime that can stem from one
particular object.
That leaves prosecutors with one heck of a lot of discretion that they can use to try
to bust people. And this is where cynicism comes in. Now, it's not what the law says
that can make a prosecutor decide how to pursue a particular case. But it's how the
prosecutor can try to make the law appear to apply to a case. Broad wording of broadly
written statutes lead to abuse, which means you can essentially criminalize, make felons
out of what are, I would argue, kids who, in many cases, are no worse than jaywalkers.
I'm not arguing that one should have the right to break into any computer they want. For
now, I don't think that's the point. I'm not arguing for or against computer abuse. I
argue strongly against any form of predatory behavior, whether it comes from computer abusers
or from prosecutors. And I think we've seen too many cases of how the prosecutors are able
to manipulate the law. Let's take a concrete example. Why should this stuff concern non-computer
users? Something you may be familiar with, a 2600 meeting a couple of months ago in Washington,
D.C. If allegations are correct, it means that the Secret Service was alleged to have
surveilled or have participated in the instigation of surveillance on a law-abiding, peaceful assembly
of people who are doing nothing more than exercising their First Amendment rights to meet.
And not only surveillance, but disruption as well. After all, they were searched, they were
kicked out of the mall, and all kinds of things like that. Equipment was seized, in fact, that
didn't even, wasn't even illegal. It belonged to them.
Yep, I agree with all of that, but I'm not even going to go that far. I'll just take a very cautious
conservative view and say, assuming that all they did was assume responsibility for either
surveilling or for instigating the surveillance. Anything they did beyond that is totally
reprehensible. But if they only did the surveillance or instigation of the surveillance, that is a
violation of their mandate, of their statutory authority. So what we're talking about is using
broad law in a new area to justify circumventing existing laws that limit what they can do to
the populace. Put it more simply, essentially what bad law does in cyberspace is expand the
latitude that law enforcement has in real space. What we're talking about is things like political
surveillance. We all know from the 1960s and 70s, the political surveillance. That is, the police
spying on people who were doing nothing more than writing letters to newspapers saying,
hey, the Vietnam War is bad or racism is bad or sexism is bad. These people would get what
they call Red Squad files or dissident files. They're called different things in different
jurisdictions. And I was part of a class action suit against the Michigan State Police. And
we found the kinds of information they were collecting in doing this kind of unauthorized
surveillance. It was frightening because people were losing jobs. It was being spread among
people, all sorts of people who had power over the lives of the people who were spied on.
And this is the kind of thing we see potentially creeping back in if the Secret Service is allowed
or if any organization is allowed to surveil in cyberspace. Very easy to extend that into real space,
into a mall. What that also means is that things like RICO, when RICO went through a few years ago,
you don't have a lot of people out there saying, hey, I support the right of organized crime to be
organized criminals. They didn't have a constituency. The organized crime folk didn't.
So the RICO laws, that is the laws that essentially authorize the government to come in and confiscate
or forfeit property of alleged wrongdoers, has been extended to drug dealers and to computer
folk. What it means is that people can come in, that the law enforcement can come in, as they have
done, confiscate people's computer equipment under the guise of investigation, need for evidence.
Not return it. People have never been charged with a crime. So you have this expansion of bad
computer law that expands the discretion of people to circumvent previous laws that limited
what prosecutors or investigators could or couldn't do. Bottom line, bad computer law screws
solid. Well, I guess the thing, if people want bad computer laws, the best thing to do is just
not do anything, right? They'll arrive on their own accord. If people don't stand up and take some sort of
position here, you can pretty much guarantee that bad restrictive laws, laws pretty much regulating
thought crime will be here before we know it. Well, basically, that's what we're talking about,
1984 kind of society. And especially as we move into areas where people aren't organized to fight
or resist, then you have the problems. And I think people are beginning to organize out there in this
thing called cyberspace. But I hate to keep repeating it, but struggle is as long as history.
The only way you can stop this stuff is to stand up and say, no more. This is enough.
Take a quick example that Software Publishers Association, which protects the software publishers,
they lobbied to have something passed that was called the anti-piracy bill. It used to be,
well, what it is now, it's PL-102561. And what it has done is make, it's lowered the threshold
of the amount of software that people can copy before they're labeled criminals.
More simply, you can be tossed in jail if you copy within a six-month period 10 copies of a tape,
a phono record. This was aimed primarily at copyright software, WordPerfect, Lotus.
It has to have a retail value of more than $2,500. So you copy three copies or five copies of WordPerfect.
Or ten copies of WordPerfect. Technically, that makes you a felon. My guess is that your listeners
out there have done an awful lot of, there's probably more than one listener out there with
a borrowed, a creatively borrowed copy of WordPerfect, or Aldous, or any other.
You hear that? We're talking to you. We're talking to you. We know who you are.
And we've got the number. If they don't call that, if they don't call your number,
212-279-3400, we're going to turn them in.
If I could just interject for a second, we got a very generous donation, and that brings us a lot closer.
We still have a couple hundred bucks to go, though, in 15 minutes.
So please, if you're thinking of calling and donating something to us, remember, life is filled with similarities here.
And while we say that not doing anything will ensure bad computer laws, not doing anything in this case will ensure bad radio,
will ensure BAI becoming less powerful in what it says,
we'll have to worry more about raising money and less about what we want to say on the radio and who we talk to and that kind of thing.
And one day, who knows? It might become too expensive for us to continue.
We might not be able to raise enough to continue, and you might hear hot 99.5.
Who knows? You've got to be careful of these things.
So please show your support, 212-279-3400.
We'll make it as pleasant as possible.
We don't have professional salespeople down there.
They won't chew your ear off or anything like that.
They're just radio listeners, harmless people that, I don't know if they like being called harmless.
That might be an affront.
But, you know, interesting people like yourself, people that listen to the radio
and people that want to contribute something and have contributed their time.
So call up, speak to one of them, tell them how much you want to donate.
They'll take your name and address.
If you have a visa or a MasterCard number, they'll take that information too.
And you'll be casting a vote for WBAI.
You'll be casting a vote for awareness.
And, you know, you'll learn a lot from this as well
because you'll be getting something in return.
You'll be getting the magazines.
You'll be getting the WBAI folio and all kinds of other bits and pieces.
Plus, you'll be a part of this whole thing.
You know, it's one thing to listen.
It's another thing to be involved.
And here at WBAI, we make it fairly simple, you know.
All you have to do, really, is just give us a call and you're part of us.
You know, you're part of the family.
And, you know, unlike the religious stations where we, you know,
hear them constantly asking for money and wanting your soul and all those kind of things,
we don't really want your soul.
We just, you know, want you to help us out financially.
And we want your mind.
We want you to think and exercise good judgment
and show us some alternative viewpoints and write us letters
and call us on the phone and voice your opinion on the air.
But we want to be able to continue to do that well into the 90s, into the next century.
By pledging something now, you're ensuring that we'll take that step.
You know, we can't take all the steps at once.
We have to take one step at a time.
And right now we're taking the January 93 membership step.
If we trip while we're making that step, it's going to make the next one that much harder.
So help us make this step.
And every show is also a step within the membership drive.
In other words, if we don't make our particular goal, that means the show after us
and the shows the next days have to work harder to make up for the abysmal failure that we've become here.
So please, don't make us into an abysmal failure.
Show us that you care.
Show us that off the hook means something to you and that you've learned something from it.
We're not going to be on next week.
So if you're thinking of calling next week and pledging then, no.
I mean, the folio says we are, but it happens to be wrong this time.
We're not on next week.
So this is your chance.
Call us now, 212-279-3400.
Show your support for alternative thinking.
Show your support for electronic communication and knowledge.
The kinds of things that Jim Thomas has been talking about as editor of a computer magazine,
an online computer magazine, he comes into contact with First Amendment issues quite a bit, I'll bet.
Quite a lot of controversy out there.
And it's, you know, it's really the front lines.
This is where the battle for the First Amendment is being fought right now,
the electronic frontier, not necessarily out in the open.
You might not even see it.
It's a battle that's going on that you can't even see.
212-279-3400.
We have one call on the line.
Let's make that three.
Man, that's not so hard, is it?
That's not asking much.
And maybe we can bridge that gap.
We have a couple hundred bucks left to go.
212-279-3400.
Jim, you're talking about the Software Publishing Association.
Yeah.
And you want to elaborate on the things that they stand for?
Yeah, let me just make a quick point here that I think that when you get up and make that call,
you're trying to get people to make, you're talking about turning them from lurkers,
from just casual, passive citadems, into interactive participants.
And we all know how much we hate lurkers out there.
Yeah, and at no risk either.
We don't turn your name over to the FBI or anything like that.
It's totally free.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The S.P.A.
What the S.P.A. does is they're a group that tries to enforce what they perceive to be the copyright,
I guess, the copyright rights of their members.
And these are software authors.
And the S.P.A.'s position is that no unpurchased software must be reproduced unless you are reproducing a single copy for backup,
not for use, but for backup that you store away.
This means that all those listeners out there who have that extra copy of WordPerfect are criminals,
maybe not felons yet, but misdemeanors, that slippery slope.
My God, I can hear them all now.
They're sliding down that slope to felony life, so they better get that call into you before they go off to jail.
Now, are you saying, are there really people out there that think that people should go to jail
because they have a copy of WordPerfect?
Well, I think it's more than just a single copy.
The S.P.A.'s view is that any copying is wrong, period, that it's criminal.
Now, whether that means you're going to be a felon or just simply misdemean, it's a different issue.
But their view is that you have to have some form of heavy sanction, heavy threat, in order to make people obey.
They have this dominatrix view of the, I guess, of life.
Well, their advertisements are based on a highly coercive view.
For example, copy this software, they say, and get this hardware free.
And then they show a picture of somebody copying this on a couple of disks and being taken off in handcuffs.
So it's this very draconian, very, very intense kind of punishment that they try to stress.
It's the image of the hacker, of the pirate as evil, as the copier as evil.
So, yeah, I would say they would see any, they're quite clear.
Any copying is a crime.
It's theft.
It's like shoplifting.
They call it soft lifting.
So, yeah, absolutely.
That song, the S.P.A., from what they've said and written, does appear to see copying of any disk as criminal and subject to criminal sanctions.
Whether they would pursue every single encroachment, I don't know.
Who is it that supports this line of thinking?
Are there certain organizations that are major contributors to this?
Yeah, they have.
Well, let me, I think in fairness, we did an interview, a couple of interviews with the S.P.A. that we're going to try to pull together.
And the S.P.A. does a couple of different things.
Some of the things they do are quite good.
They do try to stress education when they can.
They're really two different, there's two sub-organizations within them.
One, they're a professional organization, not private members.
So, to subscribe to S.P.A., you have to be a software company or sub as a company.
And their dues range, I think, from $750 a year on up.
So, they have a sliding scale type of thing.
So, they have a lot of members.
But one of the many things they do for their members is organize conferences.
They do marketing research.
They do all the things that a good organization should do for their members.
So, much of what they do for members is quite useful.
Then they have what they call the Copyright Protection Division.
And that's the group that really enforces the copyright law.
And what they do is take people to court.
They threaten to take people to court.
They've never actually gone to court.
They will threaten a lawsuit.
And their strategy is to get the corporation, the alleged transgressor, to settle out of court.
The money that they get in the settlement goes to pay for the legal fees because they retain private counsel.
And it goes back into the copyright protection crowd, into the copyright protection fund.
So, it's really a self-sustaining fund with motivation to keep threatening to litigate because it means they get more money.
So, two things are going on.
They do a lot of good stuff, but they also do some things that many of us are uncomfortable with.
So, with this new law, the anti-copyright law that lowers the threshold for copyright, what it appears to do is give groups like the SPA an added weapon.
Now, they can not only threaten civil litigation, but they can also threaten criminal prosecution as a way to try to coerce a company to settle out of court.
You're saying companies and...
Or institutions or individuals or bulletin boards.
Right now, this seems to be limited to companies, but I'm wondering, are they going to make the jump to individuals at any point?
To prosecute individuals for having extra copies of programs that they might not have paid less price for?
It was essentially cleared of the unjust charges against him back in 91.
In 90, it was because of free information and people getting together.
Same with Steve Jackson Games when he was rated by the Secret Service unjustly.
Free information and people getting together, and that's why I think it's so important that things like WBAI be supported,
because we're not talking about WBAI anymore.
They're kind of talking about cyberspace.
We're talking about constitutional rights and protecting our rights, and this has nothing to do with the electronic age.
The electronic age is just the window through which we're trying to fight for broader rights for everybody.
I don't think I could have said that better myself.
Jim, I want to thank you very much for joining us tonight.
I wish you luck, and hopefully we'll have you back on sometime.
Yeah, I like that.
So take care and good luck, and what can I say?
Those T-shirts are fantastic, and people who subscribe for $70 are getting a great deal.
Okay, thanks again.
Take care.
That's going to do it for us tonight on Off the Hook.
We'll be back again in two weeks.
We won't be on next week.
And again, if you want to call up and show your support, this is your last chance.
212-279-3400.
This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
Until two weeks from now, good night.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
It couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
Bum, dilly, bum, but the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
Bum, dilly, bum!
Bum, dilly, bum!
Bum, dilly, bum!
Thank you.
Thank you.
Join Citizen Kafka and Curator Pat Conti as they slowly peel back the layers of time
to enter the shrouded mists of the golden age of the gramophone.
Each week, the lost sounds of historic recordings from the far corners of the earth
on the secret Museum of the Air.
Visiting hours every Saturday from 9 to 10 p.m.
Remember, knowledge is power, thoughts have wings, and the Secret Museum is open this Saturday
at 9 p.m.
That's Saturday, 9 p.m., the Secret Museum of the Air.
9 p.m. Saturday.
9 p.m. Saturday.