He's Fred Hershkowitz, c'est moi, host of Home Fries, 8 p.m. Friday nights.
Live radio, comedy, call-ins, and music on WBAI in New York City, 99.5 FM.
On Sunday, March 20th, from 3 to 6 p.m., at the Apollo Theater, NOBO, the network of black organizers, will present a poetry jam session honoring International Working Women's Month.
The all-women Sistifier Poetry Jam will be hosted by Sister Hazel Beckles and feature Amina Baraka, Rosemary Mealy, Camille Yarborough, Wajinku Reynolds, Asha Bandele, Yvette Davila, Shirley Hawkins, and other women poets with diverse styles.
Sister Jaribo Hill of Serious Business will sing, and Sister Ifachu Okeke will play jazz.
For further information, call 212-595-9523.
That's 212-595-9523.
That's Sunday, March 20th, from 3 to 6 p.m., at the Apollo Theater.
This part of been laid out in format, the lessons are taught by poets that can't ignore facts.
We write about what we see, here in our communities.
Well, it's that time again, and once more, WBAI has given the Radio Free Aaron crew all day to talk about, promote, inform, support, blaspheme, honor, praise, criticize, evangelicize, demonize, apologize, and satirize.
All things Irish.
Sure, a lot's happened lately, Jerry Adams has come and gone, and that gave a lot of us something good to feel about, a sense of accomplishment, but we still have a long way to go.
So join us on St. Patrick's Day, Thursday, March 17th, 9 a.m. to 6 p.m., for a full day of politics, music, comedy, and crack, only on 99.5 WBAI, New York.
And it's a couple of minutes after 10 o'clock.
We're sorry for the technical problems that we were having, but they're solved now, for the most part.
It's time for Off the Hook.
Oh, maybe they're not solved.
Yes.
Off the Hook.
WBAI.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
I couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
I'll be the bomb for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that time is good, but make me go!
We'll be right back.
And this is Off the Hook with Emanuel Goldstein here until 11 o'clock.
This is one of these days where just everything technical that can go wrong goes wrong.
Certain knobs don't do what they're supposed to do, and you don't hear things you're supposed to be hearing.
And that's kind of what Off the Hook is all about, about things that don't quite go right with technology.
It happens every day, it happens all the time, it happens to every single one of us, and sometimes we don't even know it.
Oh, it's a lot of fun.
We have a special guest tonight.
We have some updated news on various topics, and of course we'll be taking your phone calls at about 10.30 or so, and updating you on all kinds of other things as well.
Has anybody followed the story that took place over the past couple of weeks?
I'm not sure if we even mentioned it here on this particular radio program, the whole Tanya Harding affair.
I guess that's probably why we didn't mention it, because I'm averse to that kind of thing myself.
I don't really like to talk about the mainstream primetime TV movie type news.
But in this particular case, I think it's kind of pertinent to what we discuss here, because it involved something having to do with reporters.
It involved something having to do with electronic mail, and of course, by that token, it has something to do with hackers.
It seems that a bunch of reporters snooped into Tanya Harding's electronic mail.
Now, what do you think about that?
Isn't that something that, you know, you read about hackers disrupting everybody's lives,
and making things miserable, and sticking potholes in the information superhighway, and all that kind of thing.
And then these same reporters, or at least reporters that are, you know, friends of those reporters, or what have you,
go and do the same thing.
Or, actually, they don't do the same thing.
They do something completely different.
They go, and they target somebody, and they read their mail, and they do it for some particular purpose.
It's not just curiosity. They do it to get a good story.
Who knows why they do it?
They do it to show off to each other.
I don't know.
But all I know is, if hackers had done that, it would have been a completely different story.
It would have been on the front page.
They would have been calling for blood.
People would have been sent to prison.
Can any one of us doubt that?
I mean, that seems pretty clear to me.
In this particular case, though, hey, it was just a bunch of reporters.
They didn't look at anything.
They were very clear to say that.
They just logged in, and then quickly logged out again.
Yeah.
Well, this story comes from the Risk Digest, and this is reposted from the Metro Times,
which is a freely distributed alternative newspaper in Detroit.
And Dennis Rosenblum reports on yet another ethically questionable activity,
ironically associated with the violation of Tanya Harding's email at the Olympics.
Both the Detroit News and the Detroit Free Press reported that Free Press sports reporter
Michelle Kaufman, with two other reporters from other papers, broke into Harding's account
but did not read any mail.
The Free Press story was printed on page 8D in the sports section.
Isn't that fascinating?
In New York, it would be called page D8, but in Detroit, it's called page 8D.
I just love cultural differences in America.
It's so fascinating.
But the news printed its story on page 1A.
There you go again.
The front page, and portrayed it as much more scandalous.
This whole incident of breaking into Tanya Harding's email.
Well, the news and Free Press operate under a joint operating agreement.
It's a controversial arrangement which allowed the two supposedly editorially different papers
to combine their business and production facilities to cut costs.
And with a 100-year federal antitrust exemption.
Both papers argued successfully in federal court that the Free Press would go out of business
if not for this agreement.
Imagine if, well, let's say the Post and the Daily News.
No, better yet, imagine if the New York Times and the Post had some sort of an agreement
where they shared advertising and business sections or facilities
but had supposedly independent editorial policies.
Well, I don't know.
Anyway, the twist comes in when the Detroit News ran a photo of Kaufman
with their front page story.
The digital image was stolen from the production facilities in the news building
which both papers share.
According to Rosenblum, it turns out that a photo of Kaufman
which, this is the sports reporter for the Detroit Free Press
turns out that a photo of Kaufman which the news ran with its story
came from Free Press computer files.
A news editor had a composting room worker
sneak along a copy of the digital photo file
without the knowledge of the Free Press.
And since they share these offices, it's not that hard to do.
Not that hard at all.
Ed Wendover, a leader of Citizens for an Independent Press
which opposed the JOA in court,
JOA being that agreement that allows the two papers to do that,
considered it predictable.
This is perhaps only a precursor of what happens when they move in together,
said Wendover, who is a suburban publisher.
In a memo to editors at the news,
editor and publisher Robert Giles termed it
a clear breach of the security that is critical
to maintaining editorial separation and independence
as required by the joint operating agreement.
Now, the irony of this story is obvious,
but according to this contributor,
the risk involves the impact of lax computer security
on the First Amendment issues
concerning the distinct editorial voices
that were promised
under that particular joint operating agreement.
It also goes to show that
a lot of reporters don't really care
how low they stoop,
even if it's involving fellow reporters.
There's all kinds of possibilities
inherent therein.
And here's another story.
This one comes from
also the Risks Digest.
This is a piece from Stephanie Leaf.
I just received my new credit card in the mail,
only it wasn't mine.
The paper enfolding the card
had my name and account number,
but the card had a different name and account number.
The credit card company claimed
that this had never happened before,
blocked both accounts
as having lost-slash-stolen cards,
and is sending me a new card.
I was really surprised
to be the first one having this problem.
I would assume that this could happen
if the entire run of cards mailed
was off by one
and we all received the right paper
with the wrong cards.
Compounding the problem,
they have redesigned the card this year
so that the names are printed
in the same color as the card,
making them hard to read.
Only by chance
did I look closely enough
to notice that it wasn't my card.
Perhaps the entire line
did go astray after all.
Unfortunately,
this person did not mention
what kind of card it was,
otherwise we could have people
check their wallets right now
and see if they have
other people's cards in them.
Yeah, it could happen.
How often do you check your card
to see if it's yours
when you get one in the mail?
Yeah, it says it on the piece of paper,
but you actually check the card?
Did you actually check
your magnetic stripe?
Maybe the magnetic stripe
has somebody else's name on it.
It could happen anywhere.
Oh, boy.
I hope you're all ready for the 90s
because all kinds of fun things
are going to happen like that.
And finally,
this is from the Associated Press,
a harbinger of things to come.
Not the Associated Press,
but this story.
A woman in Pembroke, Massachusetts,
used the caller ID feature
to track down an obscene caller
who had been bothering her
since 1991.
Well, hats off to you.
You figured out how to look at a display
and read a number.
Great.
Wonderful.
I'm sure the phone companies
are going to get all the mileage
out of this that they possibly can.
This is 9X, of course,
in Massachusetts.
After years of harassment,
the woman signed up
with her phone company
for the caller ID service,
compiled a map
with the numbers and addresses
of public phone booths
in her vicinity,
and obtained a second telephone line
to alert police.
Her efforts paid off last Saturday
at about 2.30 a.m.,
leading to the arrest
of a 28-year-old suspect
who was still on the phone
when the police arrived.
Well, this is wonderful,
except what this woman has done
is successfully done
the work of the phone company.
She's gotten her second telephone line.
She's paid for caller ID.
She's compiled a map
of all the names and addresses
of pay phones,
and she's stayed up
until 2.30 in the morning
dealing with all this garbage
when the phone company
can simply say,
well, you know,
this person called you
at this particular time,
period.
This is it.
This is our technology.
We have the capability
of doing this.
But no,
the mentality these days
is to have somebody
be charged all this extra money
and go through
all this extra effort
when the phone company
can just do it
with the flick of a switch.
Not even.
Not even that.
The data is there.
All they have to do
is call it up
and find it
and wait for it
to happen again.
It's very simple.
Now, if this can be used
against people
as far as surveillance
and phone taps
and pen registers
and things like that,
well, then why can't it be used
to help people
instead of making them pay
for such ridiculous services
as call trace
where you pay $1.50
to dial star 57
which will send
the number of the person
that just called you
someplace.
And if you do it
about 10 times,
maybe they'll take notice.
And if you call them,
maybe they'll actually
tell the person
that you're being annoyed
by them.
They won't tell you
who those people are
that are annoying you
but they'll find out
who you are.
It's a crazy system.
I don't quite understand it
but that's the way it is.
Okay, that's pretty much
all the news updates
that we have right now.
When we come back,
we'll have a special guest
and we'll have an update
on fiber optic as well.
And we'll be taking
your listener phone calls
here on Off the Hook.
Off the Hook
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
over there in Minersville, Pennsylvania.
News is fairly good.
Last week we told you
how he was shoveling snow
eight hours a day
and against doctor's orders actually.
Well, you'll be pleased to know
that he's been switched
to dishwashing.
So now he's inspiring himself
by washing dishes
every other day
for about eight hours
or maybe even more.
I'm not sure about that.
I'll be seeing him again
this weekend coming up
and passing along
all the good wishes
of the people
that have been writing in
and sending things.
He does appreciate
the mail he's been getting
and please keep that coming.
We have on the phone
with us
a very special guest.
Somebody who has
been through the mill,
so to say.
You see, fiber optic
is somebody
that has been sent to prison
for crimes of computer hacking,
for being in the wrong place
at the wrong time,
for boasting about knowledge,
for spreading information,
for telling people
how things work
and for being on this program
and sharing his knowledge there.
But,
something that's very important
to point out,
fiber optic is not
the only one.
There are
quite a few other people
that have met similar fates,
quite a few other people
that are
out there
getting information,
helping people out,
learning about various things
and looked upon
as a threat
by people
and governments
and corporations
and other entities
that just don't understand
and see anybody
that winds up in a place
that they don't have
a written note
saying that they're
allowed to be there.
They see anybody
like that
as a big threat,
as somebody that's going to
cause all kinds of problems.
Well,
tonight's big threat
is a hacker
known as Acid Freak.
We know him as Eli here.
And,
uh,
Eli just got out of prison
a couple of days ago
and,
we want to welcome you
back home.
Thank you very much.
Uh,
he,
uh,
isn't quite out of it yet.
I believe,
uh,
Eli,
you're,
uh,
you're supposed to stay
in your house now
for about six months.
Is that right?
Well,
actually,
I'm waiting for a phone call
from the probation department
to tell me when,
uh,
they'll be by
to put this,
uh,
bracelet gadget on me.
So you're going to have
one of those...
Then I'll have to stay here
for six months.
One of those electronic bracelets
that,
um,
well,
I know our listeners
are curious how it works.
Do you have any idea
how that kind of thing works?
Uh,
how it works?
Well,
uh,
they put these sensors
by my door
and if I pass those sensors
while wearing the bracelet,
it'll signal,
uh,
contraption by my phone
to call them
at the central office
and then,
uh,
they'll have,
uh,
my probation officer notified
which will then
call my house
to see if I'm here
or drop by
or,
uh,
whatever she likes.
Uh-huh.
Wow.
So can you tell us
something about,
uh,
about the case?
You were,
you were part of the,
uh,
I guess the M.O.D.,
uh,
um,
arrest
and,
uh,
conviction.
Yeah,
that is correct.
Now,
what,
what exactly happened?
When did it happen?
What were you sentenced for
and where did they send you?
Wow.
In no particular order.
Well,
uh,
basically I was sentenced
for crimes
that I allegedly committed
in 1989.
Uh,
actually it was
over a period
of two or three months
in 1989.
And,
well,
um,
basically they didn't indict me
in the,
uh,
Eastern District
when I had first been indicted
and,
uh,
they had just dropped
the case there
and then two years later
the Southern District
picked it up
because I had been,
uh,
known to associate
with,
uh,
two others,
uh,
two or three others,
uh,
one of which,
uh,
was Mark Fiberoptic.
And,
uh,
they decided to reindict me
on that.
Is that,
is that something
that,
that happens often
when people are reindicted
for the same thing?
Well,
one thing you've got to understand
is it's not all cut and dry
when it comes to the government.
You know,
things like this have,
uh,
you know,
there's a lot of politics involved.
You know,
it's not just,
let's go get people
who are violating.
It's,
you know,
I want to get that promotion
and,
you know,
we've got to get these laws
passed and set precedent here.
It's also a question
of publicity,
too,
because you've been
fairly prominent
in the hacker world
and also in the media.
Uh,
you've been on,
um,
various,
uh,
programs on,
uh,
CBS,
NBC,
even in the Village Voice
and,
uh,
many other places,
too.
Yeah,
the media played a large part of it
in which,
uh,
I kind of regret,
to tell you the truth.
You know,
when,
when you first start out,
you know,
the glory gets to you
and everything
and,
you know,
you try to make a name
for yourself and everything
because you're proud
of what you're learning
and everything.
and,
uh,
the media picks,
picks up on it
and they feed on it
and,
uh,
you don't realize
that the government,
uh,
takes that
and twists it around
and,
you know,
uses it as evidence,
you know?
Uh-huh.
However innocent it may be,
you know,
I remember
I,
uh,
was offered to go on NBC
and,
uh,
tell them what happened
about,
uh,
breaking at WNET
and,
uh,
I didn't do it
but,
uh,
once they interviewed me
and cut and edited everything
and threw me on the air,
hey,
lo and behold,
hey,
why'd you do it?
You know,
uh-huh.
It,
suddenly I was answering a question
that I wasn't being asked.
Uh-huh.
Yeah,
well,
TV has that remarkable,
uh,
ability of doing that.
That's why live TV
is generally considered,
uh,
a more accurate forum
than something that can be edited.
Right,
but I mean,
it's impossible to deny
when you go to court,
you know?
Uh-huh.
Now,
do you think that had a lot to do
with,
uh,
with your conviction?
Um,
yeah,
the one thing that really annoyed me
was that particular incident
because,
uh,
I mean,
to this day,
I,
I never crashed any WNET system
and they said I had
and,
uh,
they knew who it was.
I mean,
they knew who was
somebody that was
an informant for them
or,
uh,
cooperating with them
and they just didn't want
to believe it was him.
They just kept saying it was me
and,
you know,
they didn't have any evidence
that I did it.
But,
uh,
since their,
you know,
co-operator said that I did it,
you know,
I must have been responsible.
Well,
it's amazing actually
because,
uh,
virtually everybody
in the hacker world
knows who was responsible
for that.
The person I even think
has even said
that he's responsible for it.
The FBI certainly knew
who was responsible for it
and I'm sure WNET knew
who was responsible for it.
Yet,
that didn't seem to matter
and,
and this person
was never even indicted
and he considered,
continued to walk scot-free
and this is somebody
that,
uh,
a lot of us
don't even consider
to be a hacker
because,
uh,
because he did
destructive things.
Why do you think
they didn't go after
this person?
Why did they go after
people like you instead?
Well,
like I said,
it's politics.
It's easier
to get somebody
that's right in front of you
than to,
you know,
try and chase somebody else
who,
you know,
who's probably already aware
that he's being followed.
So,
they just figured,
why don't we hold this guy
and,
you know,
obviously make a case of this.
They,
basically,
their,
their idea is,
you know,
he's pretty much guilty
of some things
and,
uh,
we could probably try
and prove that in court.
So,
therefore,
we could probably infer
that he did all these
other things
because it's so
similar to his case,
you know.
Uh-huh.
Now,
tell us something
about the,
um,
uh,
the sentencing
when,
when you were actually
trying to explain
to the judge
what was going on.
well,
I stood up
and I
pled guilty
and,
uh,
basically,
I don't want to say
it was forced,
but,
uh,
I was coerced
into,
uh,
saying
that I did
certain things
and the judge,
uh,
dramatically just
made a speech
saying he couldn't
believe why I would
crash the WNET
system.
So,
I said,
Your Honor,
I maintain
I never did that
and that just
baffled him.
He just,
uh,
stood there amazed
and I mentioned
to him that the
government knew
who it was
and that,
you know,
they weren't making
an attempt to do
anything about it
and he was baffled
again and,
you know,
I might have
pissed him off,
but,
you know,
I just had to
get that off my
chest,
you know,
so,
I mean,
he used that
as an excuse
to sentence me
and when I pointed
out that I didn't
do it,
he wouldn't have it
but at that point,
you know,
I just totally
gave up all hope.
What was it that
you had to plead
guilty to?
I pled guilty
to conspiracy
of possession
of 15 or more
unauthorized access
devices,
which is basically
passwords or
calling card numbers
and things like that.
Uh-huh.
And that's it?
Excuse me?
That's it?
That's conspiracy
and having some
passwords?
Uh,
yeah.
I see.
Now,
there was,
uh,
I remember this
was being spread
around on the net
when your sentencing
happened,
which,
uh,
it was last autumn,
wasn't it?
Yes,
it was.
Yeah.
Now,
you were trying
to explain
to the person,
to the judge,
actually,
what it was that,
um,
how a message
could be posted
on a bulletin board
system,
and I don't think
he understood
quite exactly
what you were
talking about,
and that was,
like,
pretty clear.
Yeah,
there was a,
there was a message
left on there,
and,
uh,
what happened
was,
I made a little
message come out
on the printer
that said,
Happy Thanksgiving,
you turkeys,
from all of us
at M.O.D.
Uh,
somebody else,
the,
uh,
the person who
was cooperating
with the Secret
Service,
uh,
also happened
to be on
at the same time,
and I was aware
of it,
and,
uh,
I logged off
the system,
and tried to
log back in again,
and lo and behold,
my message wasn't
on the printer,
it was on the
log-in,
and it said that
the whole system
was crashed.
So,
when I asked him
what had happened,
he told me he
took my,
uh,
message and edited it,
and said,
ha-ha,
there's nothing in here,
you know,
don't bother coming in
because everything's erased,
and I asked him why,
and he was just laughing,
you know,
I didn't do it,
and I tried to explain
to the judge how the
message could be copied,
and he didn't understand,
he said,
but what are the,
what is the coincidence,
what a coincidence this is,
I mean,
what are the possibilities
that someone would,
would actually do this,
I mean,
you'd have to get on
the computer,
and you know,
and I just told him,
no,
you just have to open
a word processor,
and you know,
copy a file over,
and he just didn't
understand,
it was way beyond him.
He thought the only way
he could do that
would be to retype it all,
there's no way to copy
a massive amount
of data like that.
Well,
I don't know what he thought,
I didn't think,
I thought he,
you know,
he was probably thinking
that you had to pull wires
or something,
you know,
open up the computer
to change a message
or something,
I don't know what he thinks,
but.
Uh-huh.
Now,
tell us something about,
about your days in prison.
You went to what,
what facility?
I was at Allenwood
Federal Prison Camp.
In Pennsylvania.
All right.
And,
uh,
how did they treat you
over there?
Well,
the camp itself was good,
but,
uh,
I was assigned
to the welding detail,
and,
uh,
the welding detail
wasn't on the camp itself,
it was for the nearby complex
where the,
the penitentiary
and the medium security
and the high security,
uh,
the medium,
the high and the low were,
and,
uh,
I was,
I didn't feel comfortable
going in there.
You know,
the first week I was there,
actually the first month
I was there,
they threw me in the penitentiary
to weld,
uh,
steel reinforced walls
onto the cells
for the,
uh,
maximum security prison
so these inmates
wouldn't dig their way
to the next cell
and kill their next door neighbor
or whatever they wanted to do.
I see.
Yeah.
And,
um,
now you were in there
for six months,
right?
Right.
And,
um,
I mean,
did,
did people treat you
any differently
because you were a hacker
or you treated it
with respect?
How did the guards
treat you?
Things like that.
Well,
I don't want to say
I developed a following,
but everybody knew
what I was there for.
I mean,
I was the only guy
there for that.
And,
uh,
but I basically went in there
wanting to be,
you know,
keep to myself
and stay quiet,
but it,
I mean,
10 minutes after I was already
being,
like,
processed in there
and admitted,
uh,
another inmate
who I didn't,
didn't know
until later
came up to me
and said,
I don't mean to be nosy,
but,
uh,
the guard just told me
everything about your case
and,
uh,
it sounds pretty interesting.
I just thanked him
and he said,
well,
I just wanted to let you know.
Wow.
The guards were all
talking about it
and,
you know,
they would come up to me
and,
you know,
mention it
and stuff like that.
So,
I mean,
it was no secret,
you know.
And did that cause
any problems for you?
Um,
well,
you know,
you have,
uh,
had a couple of
occasions
where shady characters
used to come up to me
and,
you know,
kind of hint that,
uh,
you know,
things that I,
I really wasn't interested in.
But,
uh,
you know,
you,
you just take that
with a grain of salt
and keep walking.
So now that you're back out,
you,
you were released on what day?
I was released on Friday,
last Friday,
the 11th.
Um,
I mean,
how does it feel
to get out of a situation
like that?
Is it relief?
Is there shock?
What is there?
Uh,
when,
when you first go in there,
I don't know,
it must be some kind
of a psychological,
uh,
defense mechanism.
It just,
everything just goes by
like a big blur,
you know?
I still can't believe
I was in there.
And,
uh,
every day is just
so bland.
Like,
I,
I wasn't really aware
of what was going on,
you know?
Uh-huh.
Come back here
and I feel like
I'm actually alive,
you know?
Yeah.
Uh,
I can't explain it
to tell you the truth.
I actually thought
they were putting
something in the food.
You know,
it's funny,
that's what,
uh,
when I visited Fiber,
uh,
he said something like that.
He said,
tell me if this makes
any sense to you,
that he has a lot
of trouble thinking there,
that it's as if
he's,
he's getting dulled
in his senses.
It's very easy
to become sort of,
uh,
I guess stupid.
Yeah.
Did you feel that?
Yeah.
I wonder if there is
something in the food then.
Yeah,
well,
I don't know.
I mean,
it's coming back to me now.
I'm readjusting.
It's like,
I feel like I'm awake.
It's almost as if
I was daydreaming
when I was there,
you know,
the whole time.
Yeah.
You know,
which I hope I wasn't,
but.
Uh-huh.
Well,
now,
I mean,
it's a stupid question,
but I think it's one
that has to be asked.
If,
um,
if you knew that
this was going to happen,
if you knew that
this was,
uh,
you know,
where,
where you would end up,
what would you have
done differently to,
to avoid it?
Or would you have
done anything differently?
Um.
I mean,
would you have become
a hacker at all?
Would you just have
done something else
and,
and suppressed those,
uh,
those urges?
Oh,
all I can say is,
you know,
I went through it
and I don't regret it.
Uh-huh.
But,
uh,
I wouldn't do it again.
Yeah.
Well,
are you still,
uh,
a curious person?
Are you still interested
in technology?
Has that been proven?
Oh,
sure,
sure.
I've always been.
I mean,
like I said,
these charges stem from 1989.
You know,
since then I haven't done
anything illegal,
so,
you know,
I've always been curious
and I'll always be curious,
but I won't be curious
in the same way
as I was in 1989
and before that.
Uh-huh.
Now,
is there any kind
of special restriction
that you have
now that you're out
that you're not allowed
to,
say,
use a computer
or anything like that?
Well,
it's interesting
that you ask.
I met with my
probation officer
yesterday
and,
uh,
well,
it was a substitute,
uh,
PO because mine
wasn't around
and,
uh,
he told me I couldn't
get a job
in the computer field.
He said it was
a third-party risk
to him
and I just
didn't understand it.
I mean,
I don't know
where he's involved
in that.
I'm working
for a company
and he says
that he's at risk.
Can you explain
that to me?
He's at risk?
Yeah,
he's at risk.
I see.
No,
I can't,
I don't know
how these things work.
Well,
I mentioned to him
that the judge
sentenced me
to 750 hours
of added community
service
in the computer field
and he,
he wanted to petition
that.
He wanted it changed,
so I still don't know
where that's going,
but,
you know,
I don't know,
it's like he,
he tried to,
to make things
difficult for me,
you know?
Uh-huh.
That's the,
that's the thing
that annoys me
the most
about this whole thing
is that my sentence
was more of an annoyance
than anything.
It didn't teach me anything,
you know?
I mean,
it made me,
you know,
not want to go in again,
you know,
and I'll definitely be,
you know,
be watching my step,
you know,
I won't do anything
illegal anymore,
but,
you know,
it's not like I,
I didn't gain
from any,
any of that,
you know?
I just wasted time.
Do you think any,
any message was sent,
like they wanted
to send a message?
They've used that
sending a message garbage
about,
I don't know,
10 years ago,
you know,
when the first hacker
got busted.
Yeah.
You know,
when Shadowhawk got busted,
they said he had to send
a message.
I mean,
that's never going to work,
you know?
I mean,
if it did work,
there would be no crimes today
because every,
you know,
first incident
would be the message.
Uh-huh.
Do you think
there's a reason,
is it just ignorance
on their part
that sends people
like you to prison
or something more sinister?
Yeah,
it's,
like I said,
a lot of politics.
You know?
Uh-huh.
That's their job
and,
you know,
I guess,
in a way,
hacking was my job,
you know?
Yeah.
It's the opposite
size of the coin
and at one point
you have to clash
and that's what happens.
Well,
we're going to be
taking some phone calls.
I just wanted to ask you
one more thing
about the media.
If,
how you feel
media coverage
on this particular,
was there media coverage
on your particular case?
Uh,
yeah,
actually there was
a lot of media coverage.
Was it fair
in any sense?
I'd have to say
it was a little bit unfair
because,
you know,
the media always has,
you know,
their ulterior motives,
you know?
You have to satisfy
a wider,
you know,
a wider group of people.
I mean,
I just tell my story.
They have to make it better
so that everybody
will like it
and,
uh,
I don't like that.
Everybody's profiting from it,
you know?
I didn't profit from it.
Uh-huh.
You know?
I understand
there's going to be
a book coming out soon.
Yep.
I hear the same thing.
Uh-huh.
And,
uh,
do you know anything
about that?
All I know
is there's a book
coming out
and I have hardly
anything to do with it.
Uh-huh.
I didn't care
to associate with it,
you know?
Uh-huh.
Somebody else
will pocket the loot
and,
you know,
make a big name
for himself about it,
but,
you know,
I don't care
to take any part of that.
Well,
do you think
there's a lot of cases
like that
of,
um,
of people
benefiting off hackers?
Yeah.
You know,
there's always going
to be somebody
preying on,
you know,
the latest fad,
you know,
whether it be,
you know,
cyberpunk this,
or,
you know,
information highway that,
you know.
Yeah,
because I see a lot
of instances of this
and I get phone calls
a lot of times
from various
different reporters.
Some are very good,
some are very sleazy
and a lot of people
are out to make a name
for themselves
and they pretty much
want a free ride,
you know,
they want to learn
everything there is
to know about hacking
in the next 10 hours
and write a Pulitzer Prize
winning story
or something
about that
and get all the credit
and everything like that
and just kind of use people
and in some cases
incite people
to do things
that are illegal
and very risky to them
in order to make
their story work.
Yeah.
And I've seen this happen
a disturbing number of times
and I know there's
a lot of people
benefiting off
what the hackers are doing.
The thing is,
these people aren't offering
to go to prison for them.
You know,
they're collecting
vast checks
for whatever it is
that they are inspired
to do from the hackers' exploits
but when it comes
to anything bad,
well,
they're not there for that.
Yeah, well...
They're not even there
to offer you
a sympathetic hand,
are they?
Only in very few cases.
You know,
I still have some friends
in the media
and they've been good to me
but, I mean,
there are others
that just won't let up,
you know?
Well,
do you think hackers
should just stop talking
to the media altogether?
No,
because there are certain times
that you want to get
it out into the open.
I'm just saying,
you know,
you've got to be more careful.
You have to be aware
of what you're doing.
You know,
you have to realize
the consequences.
Most of the times,
I know when I started,
I just thought
it was going to be fun and games.
I never thought
I would get caught,
you know?
Right.
I thought if I was
going to get caught,
I mean,
they wouldn't put a hacker
kid in jail
but you don't realize
that they bust you,
you know,
they raid your house
in 1989
and then you get sentenced
in 1994,
you know,
when you've already grown up
and you've been through college
and, you know,
you want to make a living
and everything
and that's when it hurts most
for you and your family,
you know?
Uh-huh.
And, you know,
you've just got to know
what you're getting into,
you know?
It's hard to predict the future
but you've got to,
you know?
Well,
do you think that the things
that you did in 1989
warranted going to prison?
You know?
No, absolutely not.
Uh-huh.
So it wasn't just a delay,
it was actually
these things aren't,
aren't something
that deserve to be,
for people to be locked up?
It's something that they
built up over time,
you know?
Right.
It's as if they wanted
to send you to prison
and they just pretty much
collected things
until they had enough points
to send you to prison.
Yeah.
That's what it was.
Do you see this thing changing?
Is it getting worse?
Have you been following things?
No.
I mean,
I've been following things
and it just seems like,
well,
the prosecution
will always use the media
to their advantage.
You know,
it makes it seem
like a bigger threat.
They will use time
to their advantage.
They raid you one day
and they keep you waiting
and once,
you know,
the media hype
starts to flourish,
you know,
things get bigger and bigger
and juicier and juicier
for them
and they just wait,
you know?
It's like waiting
until you're ripe
and then they pounce
on you with a good story,
you know?
What do you think
of this Tonya Harding thing?
Do you follow that at all?
Yeah,
I followed it.
It's the reporter incident,
I mean,
looking at her email.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
It's a bit contradictory,
don't you think?
No comment on that.
Yeah.
All right,
let's take some phone calls then.
212-279-3400.
We're talking with
Acid Freak,
known to us as Eli,
who has been
in a federal prison
for the last six months
and has just been released.
However,
he is confined
to his home now
for the next six months
with an electronic bracelet.
Tell me,
you're allowed
to go to work,
right?
Yeah,
I'm allowed
to go to work,
go to the hospital
on emergencies
and I can go to school
and I can go
to my house of worship.
And I don't suppose
you can go
to 2600 meetings?
Unless it's a religion.
Well,
that's a thought.
We'll look into
the odds of doing that.
When you go out
of your house,
just a technical question,
when you go out
of your house,
do you take the bracelet off
or do you have to wear it?
You have to wear it.
So you walk around
the streets with the bracelet?
Yeah.
Oh,
this will be fun.
Yeah,
it's really stylish.
It impresses all your friends.
Does it look like a bracelet
or does it beep or something?
I don't know.
I mean,
I haven't seen it myself.
Just supposed to put it
on tomorrow,
I think.
Well,
I'll have to somehow
see this
because I've never
it must be people
walking around
with these bracelets
all over the place.
We don't know it.
Yeah,
well,
I have to pay $4.30
for it every day.
You have to pay rent
on the bracelet.
Yeah,
you know.
That's amazing.
Is there an option
to buy?
I don't want to buy it.
Okay.
I know that.
Wow.
Okay,
let's take some phone calls here.
Good evening.
You're on Off the Hook.
Hi.
You know,
it's really too bad
that people don't
understand technology.
And there's one
example of this
and I really want to
anything to do
with what you're saying
but it sort of
has to do
with what you're saying.
I've noticed
that in Manhattan
there are a lot
of people
that are removing
the coin returns
out of pay phones.
I mean,
they're just removing
the coin returns
out of pay phones
all over Manhattan
and people just
throwing a quarter
into these pay phones
with no coin return there
and then when they
get their money back
for some reason
they just frantically
search for it.
I mean,
wouldn't you know
common sense
to not use a pay phone
that looks like that?
Well,
by the same token,
wouldn't you know
not to use a pay phone
that doesn't give you
a dial tone?
I've seen people
just happily throw money
into pay phones
that have been
broken for months.
I want to give out
a phone number.
If anybody sees
a pay phone
with no coin return
or no dial phone
take the time
and report it.
It's 1-800-NEW-YORK-TEL-COIN
that spells out
NYTCOIN
that's 698-2646
and select option one
report it as a VIP.
I always do this
because I see
all over Manhattan
and even Queens
and the other boroughs
I don't know why
but the coin return
is just removed
and I see some parts
of the coin return
on top of the pay phone too.
Well,
you know,
it's profitable
for the phone companies
for people to use
calling cards
and not use coins at all.
You know that,
don't you?
Yeah,
I do know that.
But the other thing
is that three,
well,
I've seen a call card
that blocks
1-800-ATT,
call ATT.
It dials every other
800 number
except for 1-800-call-ATT.
Well,
that's illegal.
They can't do that.
And they don't
give you carrier access codes either.
Well,
you should report
that pay phone.
You should report
that to the public service
because that is very illegal.
And the 376 exchange,
if you dial
2-1-2-3-7-6-9-9-0-1,
that'll give you
a dial tone.
Okay,
well,
I'm sure you've given
our listeners
something to think about.
Thanks for calling
and let's see
if there's another
phone call out there.
Good evening,
you're on.
Oh,
hi.
How are you?
To my radio now.
Okay.
I wanted to mention
something about
the Clipper chip.
You had talked about
that a couple weeks back.
There's an electronic petition.
I don't know if you've mentioned
that on the air at all.
Yeah,
we have,
but feel free to mention it again.
Okay,
yeah,
the Computer Professionals
for Social Responsibility,
which is a group
that opposes
Clipper chip,
has an electronic petition
that can be signed
by anybody
on the Internet.
And if you send them
a message,
their Internet address
would be
clipper.petition
at cpsr.org
and somewhere
in the text
of the message
include the three words
I oppose Clipper.
In the text
or in the subject?
In the text.
Okay.
The subject is ignored.
You have in the text
of the message
that it has to say
I oppose Clipper.
And they should
return you
a message
acknowledging
that you've been received,
you know,
that's been received.
I think it's about
the 50,000 signatures
they've gotten so far.
Eli,
when you were in prison,
did you hear anything
about the Clipper chip?
Hardly.
Yeah?
I hardly heard of anything.
Have you been updated
as to the fact
that the Clinton administration
is pushing it?
I heard that.
Okay.
It's definitely something
that we'll be focusing on
in the months ahead.
All right.
Thanks for the information.
Okay.
I have one more thing.
I just want to mention
that you had talked
about switched credit cards.
One of the most common ways
your credit card
is likely to get switched
is extremely low tech.
If you're in a restaurant
and you give it
to the waiter or waitress
and they take it away
and they're passing it
through the authorization terminal,
you're very likely
to get back
somebody else's credit card.
That's happened to me
twice in my lifetime.
Really?
And I happen to catch it
both times.
I don't know why
because I very seldom
look at the card
when it comes back,
but I did happen
to catch it twice.
That's interesting.
I guess there's all kinds
of ways you can wind up
with somebody's credit card.
Yeah.
All right.
Thanks for calling.
Thank you.
Bye-bye.
Bye-bye.
Okay.
212-279-3400.
We have Acid Freak Eli
here on the phone with us
if you have any questions
for him after the experience
of six months
in a federal pen.
Please give us a call
and share your thoughts.
Good evening.
You're on.
Yeah.
Hi.
I think this Tonya Harding thing
is like the pits.
Uh-huh.
In my opinion.
Is there anything
that the people out here
can do about this,
you know?
In what sense?
You mean to prevent people
from being sent to prison
or Tonya Harding?
Well, just to prevent,
not to prevent,
to prevent, you know,
people who,
from going to prison,
A,
or to see that these people
do go to prison,
you know,
like some of our friends
out there, you know?
Well, let me ask Eli.
What do you think?
Do you think reporters
like that should be sent
to prison like hackers?
I think that if you're
going to make an example
of one,
you have to make
an example of everybody.
Okay.
You don't sound like Eli,
though.
Eli, what do you think?
Um,
that is a difficult case,
you know.
In some ways,
there might be
a legitimate reason for it,
but in other ways,
there might not,
you know?
Uh-huh.
I don't know.
I don't think two wrongs
would make a right
in this particular case,
but by the same token,
you know,
these people have to learn
that, you know,
it's not right
to condemn something
and then just do it yourself.
Well, the other thing
that it's not right to do,
in my opinion,
and, you know,
you can quote me on this,
is that, you know,
you shouldn't be going
into other people's email
because that's their
private mail, you know?
Uh-huh.
You know,
and whether or not
it's encrypted or not,
that's neither here nor there.
Another point I wanted
to bring up,
there's a trade magazine
out there called
Communication News,
the applications magazine
for networking
and information management
for February.
There's an article in here
about toll fraud,
the multi-million dollar
telecom program,
and it gets into
these facts about
how the telcos
aren't the ones
who are,
in the past
three or four years,
they're not the ones
who the phone fraud,
toll fraud,
has been taking place on.
It's been the PBXs
and the other people
who have call cell
on their PBXs
that have been the victims,
so to speak.
And it just tells you
a little thing in here
about how they got into it
and how you can stop it
and all that kind of stuff.
Uh-huh.
It's kind of interesting reading
if you can get your hands
on a copy.
And how do you get
your hands on a copy?
Got me.
My manager gets it in,
you know,
gets it in,
and I kind of like
intercepted this copy,
so I just,
on the cover,
it's like,
hacking.
I said,
wow,
you know?
Yeah.
And, you know,
and see what these people
have to say.
Well, the definition
of hacking
in a trade newsletter
generally is very far
from the definition
of hackers
in the hacker circle.
Absolutely.
When people say,
you know,
are you a hacker?
I said,
I don't know.
I never made any furniture
with an axe.
It's one thing,
though,
that I've noticed
in a lot of these
trade publications
when they talk about hackers,
this is something new,
too.
They start talking about
hackers and their customers.
They really make us
into these criminal types
that actually are
selling things to people.
Selling anything.
It's incredible.
And they want to believe
this so badly
because that makes it okay
to lock us up
and throw away the key
because we're criminals
and we're selling information
when hackers aren't
interested in this kind of thing.
They're interested
in just learning about it
and spreading information.
Nothing new there.
You're right.
They're interested
in, like,
getting out the word
and, like,
you know,
if, you know,
it's just,
it's crazy.
It's totally absurd.
The other thing,
Charlie Rose last Tuesday
had some stuff
about the information
dirt road.
I mean,
super high rate.
And that was pretty interesting.
They actually had a live demo
on the internet and stuff.
Uh-huh.
Anybody.
So they're catching up
to the 80s then,
are they?
Yeah,
they're catching up
to the 80s.
That's good.
I kind of coined the term
information dirt road
after I heard it.
Uh-huh.
After a long time
because that's what it is.
Yeah, well,
it's,
I don't know,
I have yet to think of
some good analogies to that,
but, uh,
I don't know,
okay,
here's one.
Basically,
all right,
even though I hate
the word frontier
as far as electronic things go,
basically,
we have,
as hackers,
the thrill
of plowing through
the wilderness
and kind of,
you know,
seeing things
for the first time,
finding things,
discovering things.
Now,
compare that
to Jericho Turnpike,
which is a very ugly road
on Long Island,
which has McDonald's
every five feet
and, you know,
all these strip malls
and things like that,
and that's what you have
with the information superhighway.
Yeah,
the settlers come through there first
and they find things
and everybody else follows
in their campers
and sports cars
and everything like that
and bring in a lot of pollution,
bring in a lot of traffic,
bring in a lot of business
and, uh,
there's your highway for you.
Bringing a lot of,
uh,
of mediocrity,
so to speak.
Yeah,
toning it down,
the network TV syndrome.
You know,
what do you say?
Do you keep people
from coming on
to, uh,
to the internet?
No,
of course not,
but, uh,
at the same time,
the internet has to remain
interesting.
You can't make it
so that everybody
isn't offended,
you know,
by it.
It's got to be something
that you get what you want
out of it.
You can't regulate it,
you know?
Well,
the thing that Mitch
had mentioned on this thing
on Charlie Rose last week
was that, um,
that there are some
virtual communities,
so to speak,
and I hate that term myself.
Yeah, me too.
Um,
there are,
only because we've had
bulletin boards for,
I don't know how many years,
you know?
It just sounds so trendy,
you know?
It's cyberspace,
virtual world.
I don't know.
I just don't like it.
Fucking asynchronously
to each other
for upwards of 10,
15 years now.
Right.
Now, you know,
and now they come up
with this thing,
well,
there are virtual communities
out there, okay?
And,
and some of these places
where people go
and hang out,
you know,
they do have
their own sets of rules,
and these people
are going to be the people
who make up the sets of rules
for their own little niche
wherever they are.
Yes.
That's the way
that it should be,
as far as I'm concerned.
The people who are involved
with the thing
should make their rules
in their own little Idaho,
so to speak.
I mean,
you really don't think
that people that have
absolutely no conception,
no understanding,
and no appreciation
of these communities
should be the ones
making the rules.
You really don't think so,
huh?
No way.
No way.
Okay.
The guy from the administration
was really funny
on Charlie Rose's thing.
It was,
they,
he really couldn't describe
what they wanted to do with it
or that kind of stuff,
and it was really
kind of interesting
to see where,
where Stacy and Mitch
had some stuff together,
and this guy was just like,
huh?
Uh-huh.
Well,
well,
that's their job,
I guess.
Listen,
thanks for the call.
Take it easy.
Okay.
Eli,
any comments
on cyberspace?
Uh,
I don't care much
for those terms myself.
I mean,
I've heard them all,
the highway,
the cyberspace,
the cracker,
yeah,
heard it all,
cyberpunk,
that's all,
media garbage.
Have any good crackers
recently?
Crackers,
only in prison.
Yeah.
You know,
they call prison guards
hacks,
don't they?
Yeah,
unfortunately they do.
But nobody seems
to know why.
Uh,
I don't understand it either.
Yeah.
All right,
let's go to another phone call.
Good evening,
you're on.
Oh,
yeah,
um,
I'm glad you were talking
about credit cards tonight
because I've got a problem
and I hope you can help
me with it here.
Oh,
I don't know,
you can't raise your credit rating
if that's what you want,
but.
Oh,
no.
All right.
I have a Discover card
and,
um,
the people at Discover
gave me a call the other day
telling me that,
um,
they were asking why I was
applying for another
Discover card.
I said I didn't know
what they're talking about.
So they put me through
the Frauds Bureau
and some gentleman
knew my name,
my Social Security number
and my date of birth
and,
but he used,
I guess his address
and he was trying
to get a Discover card
in my name
and I'm a college student
and the Frauds Bureau
at Discover
said that
six or seven other
leaving college students
have also,
um,
you know,
they tried,
he tried to do it
with them.
You know,
he knows that they all
go to leave him
to,
I shouldn't have said
the name of the college,
but oh well.
Well,
it's okay.
I'm sure they,
they'd like the publicity,
but,
uh,
well,
it sounds like somebody
just got a hold
of a database
that has that information
and,
you know,
in a school,
of course,
your Social Security
number is everywhere.
It's your name.
It's how they post grades.
Well,
the thing is,
they,
um,
they're supposed to cover up
the,
um,
the name.
They just post the
Social Security number
in the grade,
but this guy,
it's like I said,
they named him name,
date of birth,
Social Security number,
the whole bit.
So,
anyway,
Discover said that,
um,
I should call my local
authorities and,
you know,
get in touch with my
credit bureaus
and the whole thing.
So I called up
and they said,
um,
there's nothing they can do
unless,
um,
you see in your credit report
that,
um,
there's been some discrepancy
or something like that,
so nothing can be done
at this point.
But I called the school
and they said,
the head of security
gave me a call
and left a message
on the machine
saying that he's
checking it out.
And,
you know,
the people discovered,
like I said,
they gave me the address
that they use,
you know.
So I'm wondering,
you know,
what can I do to protect,
you know,
anyone from messing
with my credit or anything?
And the fact that,
I heard that somebody
knows your name,
date of birth,
and social security number,
they can find out
just about anything
they want to about you.
So I'm really concerned
about this,
you know.
Eli,
any comments?
Well,
I mean,
I think you can narrow it down,
like,
who might have done it.
I mean,
they must have been
really close to you personally
or had access to your files
because,
I mean,
when you fill out those
applications,
don't you have to,
like,
tell them where you work
and how much you make
and everything
and your phone number
and things like that?
Um,
I think it's a leak
and the,
um,
administration at my college.
Um,
They actually give you
a copy of that application?
I mean,
You mean the credit card
application?
Yeah.
Well,
see,
I had this card
for,
like,
three,
four years
and it's so long ago,
I don't even know.
Did they give you
a copy of the new application?
Hmm,
I don't think they did.
They just,
um,
I think they just
mailed the card to me,
you know,
um,
you know,
it was,
like,
stuck to this piece
of cardboard
with a little bit
of information on there,
like,
I mean,
the second,
the second app,
the fake one.
Did they send you
a copy of that?
No,
um,
see,
this guy,
he,
you can apply over the phone
for a Discover card.
Oh,
I see.
Yeah,
that's what he did.
And it's like I said,
um,
it was six or seven
other Lehman College students,
you know,
uh,
he,
he knows that,
you know,
we all go to Lehman College,
you know.
Well,
let me ask you a question.
Did he use the same address
for each one,
each one of these people?
Uh,
according to the Fraud's Bureau,
yep.
Well,
they know who he is.
Yeah,
um,
I thought the police
can't do anything
unless,
um,
you know,
he actually has the card
and he used it
or something like that.
They said there's nothing
they could do at this point,
you know.
So I guess this is a crime
that they can overlook,
huh?
It seems that way.
I mean,
this is a clear case
of somebody
obviously intending
to,
uh,
to use your name,
your social security number,
your date of birth,
and,
uh,
and do something with that
under your name.
Right.
And they're not interested
in following that up,
at least even talking
to the person saying
stop doing this,
you know,
maybe that would be enough
to stop him.
That's what I'm thinking
of doing,
you know.
But,
uh,
they're not going to do that.
I mean,
that's,
that's unbelievable
and they,
they would send people
to prison
for much less things.
Well,
it's not juicy enough,
that's what it is,
you know.
Yeah,
I guess the media
can't get his teeth
into it.
Yeah,
that's what they need.
Uh,
I don't know what to tell you.
I mean,
uh,
you have our sympathies.
Um,
I mean,
did they give you the address?
Yeah,
I have it,
yep.
Well,
uh,
send the guy a letter
anonymously,
of course.
Yeah.
Say you're on to
shenanigans there
and you better stop it
or there's going to be
some problems.
Right,
I was also thinking of,
you know,
contacting the college paper
and letting them know.
Well,
what state is he in?
Uh,
in the Bronx,
right here in New York.
He's in the Bronx.
Go,
uh,
go to a library,
find a library,
see if anybody has
the Coles Directory.
Coles Directory
is a reverse phone book.
C-O-L-E-S?
C-O-L-E-S.
Look up the address
in the Coles Directory,
you'll see the name.
Uh-huh.
And you'll also see
the phone number.
And,
um,
then you know who he is.
Okay.
So that's a start anyway.
I guess I'll have to go,
you know,
do this on my own
because nobody else is.
I called,
um,
the Bureau of Public Affairs,
you know,
Department of Public Affairs
and they couldn't help.
Consumer Affairs couldn't help.
I know,
I know.
I know exactly
what you're going through.
Federal Trade Commission,
nobody could help.
Try complaining about a co-cut
or about something unfair
with the phone company.
You go through the same thing.
I know.
It's terrible.
We need some,
some,
you know,
regulation in the right places
and some people
that understand technology.
Right.
Keep us updated though,
okay?
Okay,
I will.
Thank you.
All right.
Good luck.
That's just all too typical,
isn't it?
Yeah.
Too many things like that going on.
I think we have time
for another phone call.
Good evening.
Who's there?
Hi,
Goldstein.
Yeah,
I haven't seen any of you people
at,
uh,
53rd Street in about two years.
Been in a little trouble
with the,
uh,
FBI myself.
I,
I,
I got zinged on my
Social Security card too.
No reference to the above
mentioned thing.
Uh-huh.
I want to call about
an earlier show
that's been bouncing around
in BAI on the midday shift.
Um,
it's Marguerite Moore.
She's talking about
some black guy in New York.
Well,
what does that have to do with this?
Well,
this guy's got the ultimate thing,
you know,
the crime of,
uh,
somebody puts something
that is supposedly,
in quotes,
electrical device
or electronics device,
uh,
either,
uh,
telemetry,
a position,
or some kind of respondent
Uh-huh.
in his body.
Okay.
Big thing at BAI
on the morning shift,
everybody's kind of like,
they've seen the guy
and they're very hurt
by what they see.
So if it's a fraud,
it's a real good one.
It's an ace.
Um.
Well,
I'll have to get up
in the morning
to find out about that.
Yeah,
yeah,
it's,
uh,
real fantastic.
It's in our area
within 100 miles of this area.
It's happened since,
uh,
89.
I see.
Fairly strange stuff.
I mean,
you know,
really crazy.
Yeah.
Well,
thanks for,
uh,
thanks for updating us.
If anybody on AMs,
they'll know about it.
Okay,
I will.
I will.
Bye-bye.
Take care.
You know what?
I think I'm going to take
one more call.
Good evening.
You're on.
Yeah.
What's up?
Hi,
I had a question
about the,
uh,
the bracelet
that,
uh,
Eli's wearing.
Okay.
Not,
not that he'd want
to do this,
but,
uh,
could he,
if he wanted to,
um,
bypass it by
picking up his phone
and leaving it
off the hook
and then
walking out the door?
And would that
prevent it from
dialing up
his parole officer?
Good question.
Um,
yeah,
I don't know.
I mean...
We're not suggesting
you do that,
obviously.
Obviously,
I'm not going to do that.
Theoretically.
I'm wondering,
would it work?
Theoretically,
uh,
I don't know.
I don't know
if that would work.
Well,
are you not required
to have your phone line
open or something?
Yeah,
I have a special line
put in that I,
obviously,
I have to pay for myself.
Oh,
you have to have
a special phone line,
too?
Yeah,
because I can't
have call waiting
and my other line
has call waiting on it.
Why can't you
have call waiting?
Because they want
to be able to get
through any time
they want.
They want that hot line.
Uh-huh.
And,
uh,
what it does is,
even if I try
to make a phone call
just like in prison.
Right,
and the device
will just,
will just,
uh,
cut you off
and then you can
pick up again
and dial again.
I mean,
they just do that.
So,
if there's a phone call
to be made,
it'll make it,
you know.
I see.
Wow,
so I guess
if you were to do that,
it would,
well,
something would trigger
something.
If you have that
phone off the hook,
that's probably
a violation in itself,
right?
Yeah,
I suppose it is.
I mean,
that would be
tampering with the,
uh,
monitoring device
or something.
I don't know.
Did they ever explain
to you what the point
of having you
stay at home
for six months is?
Uh...
I mean,
what are you
staying away from?
I'm staying away
from all the bad
things that are out
there that may
influence me.
Well,
maybe...
Well,
I assume you're
allowed to go out
at certain times
to get food and such,
right?
I'm the hacker
in the plastic bubble.
I think you can
only order Domino's
or something like that.
Are you allowed
to go out
and get food
or what?
No,
I can't even do that.
Well,
how do you eat?
Yeah,
how do you eat?
They have to bring it
to me.
Somebody has to do
me favors.
It's not even...
It's not only a sentence
for me.
It's for everybody
around me.
What if you're at work
and you're on your way
home from work?
Can you stop in the
grocery store
and pick something up?
Well,
see,
the way it works
is you give them
a schedule
and you have to
follow that schedule.
You have to let them
know what time
you'll be back by
and they analyze
your schedule
and see if it's
legitimate.
And,
you know,
I guess you can
stop by on the way.
But you've got to
be home by that time
otherwise,
you know,
the phone will go off
and call them
and let them
know I'm late.
Welcome to 1984.
Hey,
thanks for the call.
And that's going to
pretty much do it
for us as far as
time goes.
Eli,
you have my
sympathies,
really.
I'm glad you're
out.
I'm really glad
to hear your
voice again.
You know,
we were playing
telephone tag for
actually one-sided
tag because I
couldn't call you,
but for six months
you were trying to
reach me and I
just wasn't around.
And then yesterday
for the first time
in quite some time
I heard your voice
again and it was
really good to hear
you.
Yeah,
listen,
when you drop by,
bring me a pizza.
Hey,
and I hope all
your friends out
there that are
listening also visit
and it's just good
to have you back
and what's left
of the free world
out here.
All right,
we'll be in touch
over the next
couple of months
or whatever
and we'll keep
people updated
as to what's
going on with you.
Thanks again for
speaking with us
tonight and this
is Emmanuel Goldstein
for Off the Hook.
We'll be back again
next week with more
news from the world
of technology.
Stay tuned for
the evening news.
This is WBAI New York.
The telephone
keeps ringing
so I ripped it
off the wall
I cut myself
while shaving
now I can't
make a cough
It couldn't get
much worse
but if they could
they would
Bum,
did you bump
for the best
expect the worst
I hope that
done this good
Bum,
did you bump
from the south
to the north
of the north
of the south
of the mountains
above to the south
and down the north
the south
of the south
of the south
deep
the south
is where
it should go
to the south
to the south
which will
And manière
will
not
in there
to König
the east
of the south
and the west
of the south
there
based
noticed
the west
Good evening.
In the news tonight, Congress's crime bill,
a rational response or a knee-jerk reaction to the problem.
What if three strikes you're out also applied to white-collar crime?
A critical look at immigration Florida-style.
And in New York, the poor and the homeless continue to take it on the chin
in the battles of the budgets.
With these and other stories, I'm David Sears in New York
with Verna Avery Brown in Washington,
and this is the news for Wednesday, March 16, 1994.
First to Washington for these stories topping the news.
President Clinton met today with Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin
on the second day of his visit to Washington.
Both leaders said they were determined to put the peace process back on track.
I call on Chairman Arafat of the PLO to resume talks immediately
and act like me, to fight terror as if there were no negotiations,
and conduct the negotiation if there was not terror.
Despite the three-week interruption in the peace talks,
Rabin said negotiations with the PLO were near the finishing line.
But neither Rabin nor Clinton announced any specific concessions
to bring the PLO back to the negotiating table following last month's Hebron massacre.
In Israel, the PLO news agency reported today that Yasser Arafat
has sent a letter to President Clinton asking him to salvage the peace process,
and in the occupied territories, the situation between Palestinians and Israelis is still tense.
Daoud Kutab reports from Jerusalem.
The Islamic clergymen who were invited to testify at the Israeli commission investigating
the Hebron killings refused to go today, saying that they would only cooperate with an international inquiry.
Although West Bank and Gaza schools were opened, the situation in the occupied territories has not calmed down.
More than 20 days since the Hebron massacre, tensions between Israelis and Palestinians frustrate attempts
at an early return to the peace talks.
The anger of Palestinians is not restricted to the killings in Hebron,
but to the attitude of the Israeli army ever since.
Sixty people were injured today as a result of Israeli soldiers' tough reactions to Palestinian demonstrators.
For Pacifica Network news, this is Daoud Kutab reporting from East Jerusalem.
Supreme Court Justice David Souter today rejected an emergency request from a Boston veterans group
to ban homosexuals from Sunday's St. Patrick's Day's Parade.
The Irish veterans group has said it would cancel this year's parade if the homosexuals were not barred.
In Haiti today, right-wing groups announced that they would form a new provisional government.
Roosevelt Jean-Francois reports from Port-au-Prince.
Our spokesman for the Coalition of Haitian Politicians who opposed the return of President Aristide to Haiti
said today that a new government should take office pretty soon.
No specific date was given.
Officials of the Front for the Advancement and Progress of Haiti
said that this provisional government will include all forces which have fought against the reinstatement of President Aristide.
They also affirmed that they have the support of the army.
They called to the population to make pressure on the parliament
to vote a resolution for a new de facto government.
Roosevelt Jean-Francois, Pacifica Network News, Port-au-Prince.
Last night, Democratic Congressman Dan Rostenkowski surprised even himself
by winning the Illinois primary election with a resounding 50%.
The chair of the House Ways and Means Committee beat four challengers
despite unresolved questions about his campaign and congressional finances.
In Bosnia today, Serb troops again refused to allow a convoy of relief supplies
to enter the besieged Muslim town of Maglai.
The U.N. High Commission for Refugees has applied every day for the last week to enter the town.
Maglai has not had a relief supply since last October.
A U.N. official said the Bosnian Serbs were trying to push the U.N. resolve to the last raw nerve.
International nuclear inspectors say North Korea would not let them see a nuclear processing plant.
The partial failure of the mission means that the U.S. may postpone talks with North Korea
scheduled for Monday.
And those are the stories topping the news.
The crime bill on Capitol Hill is being touted as a reasonable approach to a growing crisis.
Even liberal congressional members are calling it a shift of the legislative winds.
But is it a balanced approach?
Pacifica's Don Rush has this look at the issue
as the measure struggled its way through the House Judiciary Committee today.
Crime is now the number one issue in the public opinion polls.
And this morning, Committee Chair Jack Brooks set the scene for congressional efforts to fight it.
Our streets are stained with blood.
Our homes are bolted shut.
And no matter how hard anyone tries,
there is no escape from the reality
that we cannot be truly free as a nation when we live in terror.
The nation is now emerging from the law and order era of President Ronald Reagan,
when the government prided itself on being tough on crime.
But liberals like New York Democrat Charles Schumer
are hailing a change in the thinking of his colleagues.
He declared the legislation is...
What I think is a very fine and balanced package
that tries to be smart on both the punishment and prevention sides.
But the package making its way through Congress is filled with tougher punishment.
It includes a three-time loser bill
that would send a criminal defendant to life in prison.
It allows juveniles to be tried as adults for certain serious crimes.
And it creates over 50 new capital punishment offenses.
This morning, the committee tried to balance this out
with a measure that would ease punishment on first-time nonviolent offenders.
The committee even allowed for such an offender
to have at least one minor offense, like reckless driving.
Specifically, this law is aimed at those
who may have gotten caught up in low-level drug trafficking operations.
It is not clear how many federal prisoners would be affected,
but for New Mexico Republican Stephen Schiff,
even this was too much.
I think, Mr. Chairman, that we are creating a recruiting poster
for the major drug dealers in terms of whom to target
to bring into their organization.
These mules, as they're called,
are absolutely essential to the major drug traffickers,
and we're sure helping them recruit more.
Another classic example was the battle over crack and powder cocaine.
The punishment is 100 times higher for crack
than it is for powder cocaine,
and it is used mostly in the inner city.
An amendment was offered up to lower the punishment for crack
towards the level of powder cocaine,
and Michigan Democrat John Conyers,
a member of the Congressional Black Caucus,
urged his colleagues to support the measure.
In 92, the last time that figures were available,
92.6% of all defendants sentenced
for federal crack cocaine offenses were African American.
All of the defendants sentenced for possession of crack cocaine
were African American.
Please, on the basis of these uncontroverted racial disparities,
I urge the support of this amendment.
But conservatives like Schiff were not happy with that idea.
Instead, he pushed the author of the amendment,
William Hughes of New Jersey, in another direction.
The gentleman is proposing to reduce the penalties for crack cocaine.
I wonder if the gentleman would support raising the penalties for powdered cocaine.
Well, I'm not so sure that the penalties for powdered cocaine is inadequate.
Hughes finally gave up against such conservative opposition,
but promised to be back with new language.
Eventually, the committee will get around to the prevention side of the equation.
The House is expected to match the $22 billion approved by the Senate.
Ruth Flowers with the Friends Committee on National Legislation.
She notes much of that money goes for law enforcement, not rehabilitation.
This is in a context where most of the preventive programs were decimated during the 1980s
with all the other discretionary domestic program cutbacks.
So we've been through a little more than a decade now
where the programs that can do the most to stop crime have not had a chance to operate.
Still, members of the Congressional Black Caucus
see the new emphasis on crime prevention as a change of the political winds.
Don Rush, Pacifica Network News, Washington.
As Congress puts together a new, meaner crime bill,
our representatives on Capitol Hill try to outdo each other
who can be the toughest on crime.
The crime bills currently being considered contain a three-time loser provision.
While Congress focuses on street crime, they're ignoring the white-collar criminal.
Pacifica's Mark Beavis takes a look at what would happen
if three strikes and you're out put away corporate criminals.
After three convictions, the violent criminal would be put in prison for good.
That's the premise of the three strikes and you're out provisions
of the crime bills making their way through Congress.
But is a violent criminal only the person who robs you on the street with a deadly weapon?
Or is it the corporation that dumps toxic chemicals into your water system?
Mark Maurer with the Sentencing Project points out that with all the talk about crime,
no one is talking about white-collar offenders.
In all the crime hysteria of the last several months,
I haven't heard any discussion about the wave of savings and loan frauds
or whether or not we've had an increase in white-collar crime in recent years.
Instead, all that discussion has been about so-called street crime,
which is very serious, but white-collar crime is also a serious problem.
There's been virtually no discussion at all about how much white-collar crime there is
and what should be appropriate responses to it.
And Maurer's got some numbers.
An FBI report from 1989 cites 3 million burglaries costing about $3 billion.
But the savings and loan scandals have cost taxpayers an estimated $300 to $500 billion,
100 times more.
So white-collar crime has been enormously expensive.
Some people suggest sometimes that we don't take it as seriously,
street crime, because it's not violent crime.
I think it can be violent in its own way.
We can think of crimes like environmental pollution.
Which may not kill us directly, but certainly indirectly has some very serious health consequences to people.
It's just not the same as getting mugged in an alley.
You don't necessarily see the offender, but the result can be just the same.
Bernard Grimm is a criminal defense attorney.
He calls the concept of three strikes and you're out for white-collar criminals innovative,
but on the practical level, unnecessary.
In my experience, white-collar defendants don't come through the system a third time.
So it's usually the stigma, humiliation, embarrassment, cost and expense and usual job loss that accompanies
an indictment against a white-collar defendant is the end of the road for him.
Representative Barney Frank, Democrat from Massachusetts, argues focusing on white-collar criminals is missing the point.
I think we ought to be tough on white-collar crime, but I don't know very many people who say,
oh, I am afraid to go out of the house today, I might be victimized by insider trading.
We don't have poor people living in housing projects who are worried that they may be the victim of securities fraud.
The fact is that violent crime particularly, frankly, impacts on the lives of poor people.
There are people who live in housing projects, the poorest of the poor in this society,
who live lives that no human being ought to have to live.
Others say the laws against white-collar crime are on the books.
All it takes is a concerted effort to enforce them.
Russell Mokhyber has an idea.
Mokhyber is the editor of the Washington-based Corporate Crime Reporter.
He suggests the federal government pass a three-times-an-year outlaw for those companies convicted of defrauding the government.
Three times and the company can no longer work on a government contract.
You can't put a corporation in jail,
but the effective sanction against a corporation that does most of its business with government,
that it's getting taxpayer money is to prohibit that corporation from doing business with the government.
It's called debarment.
It's rarely used against major corporations, but it's an effective sanction, and it should be used.
So three strikes you're out should be applied to those corporations that defraud the government,
and these 20 major corporations, many of them have defrauded the government more than three times.
Honeywell, Hughes Aircraft, Linton Industries, General Electric 16 times, Boeing Corporation 4 times, Raytheon 4 times.
So you just go right down the list, and these companies would be prohibited from doing business with the government.
Mokhyber admits the idea has little or no chance in Congress.
Not only do those companies have a great deal of power on Capitol Hill,
if they were all kept from government contracts, there'd be no more defense industry.
Mark Beavis, Pacifica Network News, Washington.
Congress is considering immigration asylum reform, an issue that arouses particularly strong feelings in border states.
The government estimates that 300,000 illegal immigrants enter the U.S. each year.
While some immigrant groups complain that the law discriminates against them,
some other citizens object that immigration policy is not restrictive enough.
Reporter Alan Litke is in Florida, where he files this first in a three-part series on that state's immigration policies.
Retired Immigration and Naturalization Service Officer John Adamczak is grateful for Lady Liberty's promise of an open door to the tired and poor refugees of the old world.
Many of them, like myself, are children of aliens who came into the United States legally,
waited their turns to come into the United States legally,
after coming into the country, worked very, very hard to learn the language and become United States citizens.
Most of the aliens coming into the United States today will openly tell you they don't want to be citizens.
They're here only until they're ready to retire and then move back to their own countries.
Adamczak spoke at recent hearings in Fort Lauderdale of the House Republican Research Committee's Task Force on Illegal Immigration.
Florida has this country's third-largest population of undocumented immigrants.
They pay more than $300 million in state and local taxes,
but this week Governor Lawton Childs announced plans to sue the federal government
for some of the nearly $1 billion the state spends on social services for them.
Representative Clay Shaw of Fort Lauderdale backs a Republican bill to streamline deportation proceedings for undocumented immigrants.
When these people are caught on the beach, what does INS say?
They say, let them go.
They have no place to put them.
You never see them again.
They never show up for hearings, and they disappear into the community.
They show up at our hospitals and have their babies.
The babies then go into our schools,
and they also have a tremendous disproportionate impact on our prison systems
because of the violation of our laws.
The Republicans want to...