Hi, this is Chet Jackson, and I want you to join me for Night Flight on Sunday mornings
at 3 a.m. right after Labrish on WBAI-FM.
We will still play all the R&B classics along with the best in new contemporary music.
There will be interviews and special features from the people who influence and produce the music as well.
So join me on Sundays at 3 a.m. for the Night Flight on 99.5 FM WBAI, New York City.
It's 10 o'clock. This is WBAI. After Message, Off the Hook.
Hey, I can't find nothing on the radio.
Radio Free Pittsburgh.
Turn on the truth.
Well, I'm all mixed up, you know. I can't keep up with anything that's happening.
I want your souls to enter those microphones and merge the night ghosts in the homes of our missiles.
There's an army of them out there, broken finely, toiling in the darkness.
Waiting!
For what?
For you!
For your incandescent, brilliant, palpitating talent!
All mixed up with Peter Beauchamp.
Monday mornings at 9.30, here on WBAI.
And it's 10.01, which means it's one minute late for Off the Hook.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
It couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
Bum, dilly, bum, for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
Bum, dilly, bum!
Bum, dilly, bum!
And good evening to everybody.
This is Emanuel Goldstein. The program is Off the Hook, where we talk about the latest in telephone technology, the information superhighway, all the potholes that appear within it, and all the other nice things we can say, comparisons to the real world that we can come up with.
And, of course, we'll be taking your phone calls at 212-279-3400 and talking about some current events which have been taking place currently.
Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's start off with something kind of new from AT&T that has just been introduced.
And that is an addition to the AT&T EasyReach service.
Now, AT&T EasyReach is something that we've been talking about over the past year or so here.
It involves what is known as an 0700 number, which you can use to route anywhere in the country that you wish to have your calls go to.
Now, the way that this service was marketed was that you would only need to have one phone number for the rest of your life.
You could simply have that number follow you around wherever you go.
Well, of course, after that service was introduced, it turned out that they were going to move the 0700 service down to the 500 area code.
That has not yet happened, but it is planned.
So that means that right away, everyone's phone number will be changing your phone numbers that you'll never have to change.
But that's not what we're going to talk about tonight.
Tonight, there is an expansion to the service.
Well, actually, not tonight, but tonight we're talking about that.
So USA Direct, along with the AT&T Overseas Service and all that kind of thing, is kind of combining with EasyReach to allow you to expand your calls to other countries as well.
So what this means is that you can go overseas and have your calls follow you on this 0700 number.
And that means that either you or the person calling you will wind up paying overseas rates.
You can also have it so that you can program this from overseas.
You can have people from overseas call your 700 number now.
However, the way it's explained here, there is no way that people overseas can pay for the calls.
They have to charge them to you.
So that's a slight inconvenience there.
I'll read you some questions and answers that this AT&T brochure gives out.
You know, I just can't believe people have the audacity to beat me while I'm on the air.
Okay, well, that's something we'll have to deal with.
Here's some questions.
Questions and answers.
What will I be charged to forward a call to an overseas location from a phone in the United States?
Nothing.
That's right.
You can call your 0700 number from anywhere in the United States and program it, and it doesn't cost a thing.
That's kind of neat, but so what?
To forward calls from a phone overseas, though, you will be charged the AT&T USA direct rates,
as if you were calling back here in the United States, because that's really what you're doing.
Now, will my callers be told that their call is going out of the country if they're calling me overseas from the U.S.?
Yes, and if they're paying for the call themselves, they'll be told specifically which country their call is going to.
That's what we're going to do here tonight.
We're going to actually play around with this system a little bit, because it's just a lot of fun.
First, what we're going to do is call up our own specially programmed 700 number.
Okay, there we go.
There's our dial tone.
And we do that by dialing 102-88-0700, and then the 700 number.
And we should get an AT&T recording.
We're sorry.
Your call cannot be completed as dialed.
Please check the number and dial again.
Well, obviously, that's not what happened.
Let's see what went wrong there and try it one more time.
There's something wrong with our keypad there.
It sounds kind of sloppy.
I'm afraid we might get the same thing again.
We're sorry.
Well, I don't know what's going wrong here.
Let's try a different line.
Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep.
Okay, that's exactly what we're going to do.
And, of course, we're not going to allow those numbers to be entered over the air.
Here we go.
call forwarding is on to review change or cancel call forwarding press one to place a call press
two we're going to press one your easy reach calls will be forwarded to five one six four
seven three two six two six until you cancel call forward that's the 2600 voice bulletin board
one to make a change or to cancel call forwarding press two okay we're going to cancel call forwarding
press one to change the number you want called forwarded to press two enter the number you want
called forwarded to followed by the pound key okay we're going to go overseas so we're going to enter
yeah yeah i'm getting to you uh we're going to enter 011 and let's go to england 4-4
and london 7-1 and then
a bunch of random digits your easy reach calls will be forwarded to yeah whatever
entries confirmed okay now we hang up and we call back let's see if we get a warning
at&t easy reach service if you have an easy reach personal identification number
enter it and then press the pound key if you don't have one just press the pound key to complete this
call your call will be forwarded to the united kingdom you will be charged international long
distance rate oh we don't want that now do we so it tells you the country that it's forwarding to and
you can have it uh forward virtually anywhere in the world so that can be a lot of fun to play with
to hear uh or say your calls are being forwarded to um i don't know zimbabwe or something that might
be kind of kind of humorous on a slow saturday night with a crowd of people uh remind me to forward
that back to where it's supposed to be going hopefully nobody will call that number in the
time that we have all right um we have um some other news to fill people in on
i guess uh in a way it's kind of um it's kind of anti-climatic to uh to put it this way because
uh the way things have been going in the past few days it's been a virtual crescendo of activity
passion um feelings of all sorts i'm just going to try and present it all here in a form where
we can talk about it in a civilized manner over the radio
i hope we can do this
i hope we can do this
how are you
when you think
you
want
will
you
We were the world.
Incompetent is defined by Webster's as one not fit or capable, one inadequate to a task, especially mentally.
Well, I couldn't find 9x in the dictionary, but I am writing a letter to Webster's asking them to include a pointer in that particular category.
The trials and tribulations we have had with 9x over the past few months have been outstanding, to say the least.
Nothing complicated, mind you, nothing like figuring out the square root of pi or something like that.
This is something that I understand they know how to do.
Something like installing a phone line and doing it properly.
Well, would you believe since March we have been trying at the 2600 offices to get the phone lines installed and to have them stay installed?
No, it doesn't work that way, you see.
What has happened since March is that we've had lines put in that don't belong to us.
We've had lines that do belong to us put in in other places.
We've had lines that belong to us put in in our places, but put in in the wrong possible manners, under the wrong names, with the wrong services.
And, on top of everything else, disconnected over and over and over again.
It just never stops.
Today was the last straw.
Today was the day where I went over the deep end and turned into a screaming maniac.
Because, after many, many times of calling them and saying,
Hey, you know, these lines still aren't configured in just the right way.
You know, this line has a call waiting and it's a fax line.
It's really a bad thing for a fax line to have.
It's a call waiting, you know.
So, they went out and they disconnected the fax line for us.
So, this having happened four or five times over the last several months, I kind of said to them,
You know, this doesn't make me all too happy.
This is kind of like harassment, whether it's incompetence, maliciousness.
It doesn't really matter at this point.
You folks don't know what you're doing.
And the problem is, there's no competition.
There's nobody else we can go to.
There's no choice.
We're stuck with this incompetence.
What's a poor human to do?
Well, I'll tell you.
If I had the option, if I had the access, if I had the means to go into their system and do it right myself,
at this stage, I would not even hesitate.
And I imagine a lot of people out there feel the same way because
9x nightmare stories are something that you could write a book about where they just keep getting it wrong over and over and over again.
And you never get any answers.
But the best thing we as law-abiding citizens can do, apart from screaming, ranting, and raving,
is to complain to the public service commission, to the 9x president's hotline, and to call us here at WBAI and vent a little bit.
And let us know what kinds of horrible things have happened to you.
And if that makes you feel better, great.
But don't expect it to get your lines installed in the proper manner.
Because if I can't do it, I don't think anyone else can.
Well, complaining is something that makes you feel a little better if you complain a lot, complain to the right people.
You'll get some sympathetic ears, but you won't really get what you want in the end.
So I don't really have any answers.
After all the talk I've been doing over the years about how to complain about 9x, about where to go, where to turn,
I've gone there, I've turned there, I've been there.
And my phone lines are still disconnected for no reason at all.
And you know what's going to happen? I can tell you this right away.
What's going to happen is tomorrow morning, bright and early, the line's going to be back.
It's going to be configured wrong, of course, but it'll be back on.
And talking to people at 9x about it will be as if it never happened.
You know, I won't ever get an answer as to why they keep doing this.
And, of course, I won't ever get it put in the way I want it to.
But, you know, you've got to think, this is the phone company.
This is all they have to do.
They just have to get phones turned on and turn them off at the right time.
I guess we should be happy. They're not in charge of anything else.
You know, like our mental health or the oxygen supply or anything like that.
That's the deal with 9x. Be careful out there.
And I'm sure the same thing goes for Bell Atlantic.
I'd like to hear from people in New Jersey as well.
People in New England, from Southern New England Telephone, the independent company.
Don't know how things go over there.
Okay, those of you reading newspapers, and I know a lot of you do that,
might have seen an article in Sunday's New York Times.
In fact, the front page of Sunday's New York Times, entitled,
Cyberspace's Most Wanted, Hacker Eludes FBI Pursuit.
It's an article all about Kevin Mitnick,
who, over the years, we've talked about here on this radio program.
The, quote-unquote, dark side hacker.
I'll read you the first couple of paragraphs of this thing.
Combining technical wizardry with the age-old guile of a grifter,
Kevin Mitnick is a computer programmer run amok.
Law enforcement officials cannot seem to catch up with him.
Thirty years old, Mr. Mitnick has already served time in jail
for one computer crime and pleaded guilty to another.
One of his lawyers told the court that he had an addiction to computers,
and during his time in a treatment program,
he was prohibited from touching a computer or a modem.
Now one of the nation's most wanted computer criminals,
Mr. Mitnick is suspected of stealing software and data
from more than half a dozen leading cellular telephone manufacturers,
coaxing gullible employees into giving him passwords
and computer codes that could be used to break into their computers.
He's currently being hunted for violating a federal probation requirement
that he not enter computers illegally
or associate with other people convicted of similar crimes.
Now, included in this article is a picture of Kevin Mitnick,
saying Kevin Mitnick is suspected of stealing software and data
from cellular telephone companies.
And I guess a lot of also kind of catching up from the book Cyberpunk,
which came out a couple of years ago
and included as one of its chapters a story on Kevin Mitnick.
We have on the phone with us the author of this article
and the co-author of the book Cyberpunk,
and that is John Markoff from San Francisco.
Johnny, with us.
Yes, I'm still here.
Hi.
Well, now, I guess the first question I have is concerning this story,
and maybe you can answer this.
Does this seem to you to be a page one kind of a story?
Well, first of all, it was in Monday's paper and not Sunday's.
It was July 4th.
Okay, my mistake then.
Yeah, no problem.
Yeah, I think it is.
Given what the FBI suspects Kevin is doing now,
I think it merits public attention.
I don't think anyone since Kevin is still a fugitive has proof
that he's actually stolen software from half a dozen cellular phone makers,
but he's the suspect that they're looking for.
And if you talk to these companies, as I have, they're pissed.
We're talking about the next generation of cellular telephones,
and there's been a tremendous amount of discussion
about how insecure the current generation of analog telephones are,
and there's been some hope that the next generation of phones
will offer more privacy.
And if the source code to these phones is floating around out there on the net,
I'm not sure if it really benefits the public to have it widely distributed that way.
Have they offered any substantial proof that he is, in fact, the person that did this?
Or are they just saying that?
They are just saying that to people at the companies
and to other people that they talk to.
And I don't know why the FBI has decided that it's Kevin Mitnick.
It's conceivable that he's a convenient fugitive,
but, you know, I've been writing about Kevin for a long time
and sort of following his adventures,
and it would be plausible, based on discussions that I've had at least with one company
in great detail about what happened, that it was, in fact, Kevin.
Uh-huh.
Well, it's interesting because I'm sure you know the effect of having a front-page story
on a nationwide newspaper with somebody's picture in it
creates, I guess, kind of a man-hunt atmosphere.
I'm sure a lot of people out there right now are hunting for Kevin.
I got a call this afternoon from America's Most Wanted.
Oh, boy. What did they want?
They wanted to do a television program about Kevin.
Uh-huh. And what did you say?
I said, good luck.
Well, do they need your permission to do that?
No, of course not. They wanted my help.
I wasn't really in a, you know, that's not my job.
Uh-huh.
Well, now, we're talking about someone that is alleged to have copied software.
Is that the deal we're...
Well, I mean, we're talking about someone who has copied software.
Remember, he's gone to jail for it a couple of times.
Right, but he served his time for that, did he not?
He did, and he went into a halfway house
and went through a therapy program
modeled after the Alcoholics Anonymous 12-step program.
Right.
And then got a job as a programmer,
and I think I've heard moved to Las Vegas and lived there for a while,
and then at one point moved back to California.
And then in November of 1992,
the FBI served a search warrant on him and a friend of his
alleging that he was violating the terms of his probation.
And there were two points to the warrant that was issued for his arrest
after he disappeared.
One was that he was associated with known computer criminals,
which is an interesting concept.
And two, that he had illegally accessed a Pacific Bell computer in August of 1992.
And, you know, that's why the FBI was looking for him.
I don't know more detail than that.
Well, now, apart from him, though, being alleged to have copied this software,
I'm not talking about what he already served time for.
I'm talking about what has happened since then
and alleged to have associated with people that were criminals of some sort,
which is not too difficult to do in the hacker world, certainly,
or in the real world, is there anything else that...
There's another warrant.
Okay.
There's a state warrant issued by the California Department of Motor Vehicles,
which is a really intriguing one, actually.
I mean, it's actually fairly remarkable.
It was issued almost a year later in September of 1993.
And Kevin is alleged by that warrant,
and there's a million-dollar bail attached,
a million-dollar bail figure attached to that warrant.
And Kevin is alleged to have wiretapped FBI agents
who are calling the DMV for license information
and obtain their law enforcement access codes
and then use those codes to illegally obtain DMV information.
It's now not legal to get that information from the DMV.
And I spoke with the investigator on that case,
who was more willing to talk to me than the FBI,
and he spent a couple of months looking for Kevin last year
and gave up after a while
and wasn't getting much cooperation from the FBI,
which was actually also interesting.
There are two cases, I mean, there are two allegations
based on, I suppose, on evidence that he's broken the law.
Breaking into a PacBell of computer and wiretapping FBI agents,
which my understanding is also entails taking control of telephone switches.
How did they know that he was wiretapping them?
I have only had the warrant read to me.
I do not know.
Now, are we able to find out how they found this out,
or do we just have to take their word for it?
Until Kevin is apprehended, if he ever is.
And then I imagine they're going to have to bring their evidence into court.
Because it sounds kind of staggering.
I mean, they're saying these things that he's wiretapping agencies
that are supposed to be wiretapping him
and causing them to completely not be able to do their job properly.
And yet we don't know how they know this
until he's brought into captivity of sorts.
I agree.
Yeah.
I'm just a little baffled as to why this is being treated
as if he were some sort of a mass murderer or something.
Because, I mean, this kind of a manhunt usually is reserved
for only the most desperate of criminals.
And we're talking about somebody that, if he did all this,
simply entered computers, manipulated data, copied software,
which I'm not saying is right,
but does it warrant having a picture on the front page of the New York Times?
Well, the decision on where to place the story
is one that was made by the editors of the Times.
I mean, I think you can make the case
that because of the importance of telecommunication systems today
that significant threats to their security
or to the privacy of people who are using them
is something that we should be concerned about.
And I think that if the allegations
and what I've learned from my reporting is true,
that what Kevin may have done raises those issues.
Uh-huh.
It's interesting.
I'd like to read one part of the story here
and tell me if this is, in fact, true.
There is no evidence that Mr. Mitnick
has used his computer skills illegally to make money,
although the cellular phone companies say
the person who stole their software could sell it
to competing manufacturers in Asia
or to criminals who want to offer free phone calls.
So there's no actual proof
that he has done anything monetarily with his skills?
Well, that apparently is not true.
You know, it's a difficult and sort of gray area,
but when Kevin moved back from Las Vegas to California,
I've heard he went to work for a private investigative firm.
Uh-huh.
And there have been some allegations.
I don't know if they're contained in the warrants,
that he was using his skills
for the private investigative firm.
Now, that, to me, would be a pretty clear case
of using his particular talents for profit.
Yeah, but not illegally.
Well, that's apparently what the FBI believes he was doing,
that he was using them illegally.
Uh-huh.
I was also kind of curious,
you're familiar with the exploits
of the Computers, Freedom, and Privacy Conference
in Chicago earlier this year.
Yes.
And I didn't see any mention of that in the story.
Was that in fact?
It was, I guess you'd say it was cut for space,
is what they usually say.
There was a discussion of that in the article,
and I think the agency is particularly sensitive,
actually, to that.
They were very embarrassed by that event.
It wasn't just Kevin they were looking for.
They were also looking for another person
who is also a fugitive,
but who was an FBI informant at one point
who, his name is Eric Peterson, I believe.
Uh-huh.
Or, no, Eric Hines or Justin Peterson.
Justin Peterson.
He has a couple of aliases.
Known as Agent Steele.
Agent Steele.
He, the FBI had reason to believe he was there, too.
So they pulled some poor guy into custody
and checked to see if he had a wooden leg
and then released him.
Well, actually, what had happened was
they had pulled one person into custody
thinking he was Kevin Mitnick.
They actually fingerprinted him
before they realized they had the wrong person.
They pulled another person away
and asked to see his leg
because Agent Steele has a wooden leg
and this person did not.
And then they knocked on the door
of Robert Steele, former CIA employee,
thinking that perhaps he might be related
to Agent Steele.
And, of course, he was not.
I think you spelled Steele differently, right?
Yes, he did.
But I'm sure they thought maybe
he was especially tricky by doing that.
I guess it raises some questions in people's eyes
why something like that
that obviously embarrassed the FBI,
that kind of thing wasn't in the story,
but all this other allegations
that the FBI is giving
that that wasn't the story.
Are you at all disturbed by that?
I think that's a fair...
Well, you know, in the defense of the times,
we actually reported that earlier.
And that may have been why the editors decided
it wasn't news.
It's a call I can't make.
You know, I often have much more information
than I can fit into the space that's allowed.
Right, but a lot of this story, though,
is also rehashing of things in the past, right?
That's true.
It was a story that was in great part
a profile of Kevin.
And it was motivated.
I mean, you know, I have known
that Kevin has been a fugitive for some time,
and I didn't think that was particularly newsworthy.
However, after I spent half a day
with a cellular telephone company
and they took me through what had happened to them,
I decided that it probably did merit.
Because they lost 112 megabytes of source code,
which is the instructions the programmers write.
And this is the software that ultimately
will go into the transceiver,
the little handheld thing you carry around,
which is basically just a radio and a computer.
And I think it's very interesting
to speculate on what someone might do
if they really knew the inner workings
of that software.
I mean...
I think it would be interesting
to speculate on that,
whether or not Kevin Mitnick
were a factor in this.
I agree.
What exactly are the weaknesses
in this particular software?
Well, you know,
I think we both have friends
who have taken the software apart
in the current analog generation of phones.
I mean, I have seen many cocktail party demonstrations
of people who can,
just by knowing the right magic cookie,
can drop into the basement of the software
of our today's cellular phones
and turn them into scanners.
Which, of course,
means that every cellular phone today
that it's sold
actually violates
the electronic privacy protections
we're supposed to have.
That's true.
Yeah, every cellular phone is a radio.
That's something to remember.
Yeah, and it's an illegal device.
Uh-huh.
Yeah, so are these companies worried
about any particular thing happening to them?
I think that these companies,
you know, a company like the one I wrote about
in Southern California,
which, I mean, I talked to them.
I'm not going to mention their name
because I talked to them,
and they were willing to talk to me
on the grounds that I kept them out of the paper
because they're in the midst
of very delicate legal negotiations,
and if it was widely publicized
that their software was potentially tremendously insecure,
I think it probably would do great damage to the company.
So I made that deal
in exchange for them describing to me
exactly what had happened,
and they're very worried,
but they don't have a good idea
of what someone might do.
They speculated that someone might be able
to sell the software
to an Asian manufacturer
who wanted to make a clone phone,
but it's not an easy proposition
because these next generation of phones
are going to be based on
custom semiconductor technology.
The hardware,
it would be very difficult to knock off,
so that's probably not what they're going to do.
What's probably more likely
is someone who was interested
in finding either security flaws
so that perhaps you could get free phone time,
or perhaps if you could spoof
the cellular network in some way,
if you control the transceiver software,
you might be able to hide your location
in the cellular network.
You might be able to persuade the network
that you were actually somewhere
other than where you were,
which if you were hiding from the police
would be a very handy thing.
We've all sort of read about
what happened to O.J. Simpson
in the last couple of weeks.
I don't know what the papers back east
wrote about it,
but it was a big thing
in the California papers
where there were a lot of claims
that Simpson was found
because of the surveillance capabilities
built into the cellular network.
I actually believe that's not true,
but that was what the newspaper said.
We actually talked about that
a couple of weeks ago,
how a cellular phone that's just left on
can be used to find somebody
or at least find the cell that they're in
without having to actually make a call.
And I think that's technically true.
I actually believe that Simpson was found
by a cop who just happened
to have an APB looking for him,
but they certainly were tracing him
through the network.
I imagine quite a few people
probably had access to that conversation, too,
if it was being made right over a cellular link.
I'm actually kind of surprised
it hasn't been published yet.
Yeah, I am, too.
I'm not expecting to get a tape
in the mail any day.
I'd like to read something
from the article here
concerning that kind of a thing
as far as hiding identity.
A year after, actually, in 1988,
he was arrested again,
this time by FBI agents,
on charges of stealing prototype
operating system software
from the Digital Equipment Corporation.
He was later convicted.
The FBI had closed in on him
only after he tried to harass a friend
and partner in crime,
pretending to be an IRS agent
and making threatening calls
to his friend's employer.
Actually, that wasn't the part
I wanted to read.
The part I wanted to read is this.
The exploits Mr. Mitnick,
who worked at various
computer programming jobs
to support himself,
became legendary.
For example,
after he gained control
of the telephone switching network
in Los Angeles,
he reprogrammed the system
to mislead federal agents
trying to trace his call.
Thinking they had found
his hideout,
they barged into the home
of a Middle Eastern immigrant
watching television.
That actually happened?
That did actually happen.
Just like on TV, huh?
What do you mean,
just like on TV?
Where they barge
into the wrong place.
Oh, well, they did.
They did, yes.
And they were incredibly embarrassed.
But, you know,
Kevin routinely,
this is back in 88,
when he would work,
he was working
from his friend's
place of work.
They would go there
after hours.
And it was a,
you know,
a small...
And they had BMS systems,
which were Kevin's favorites.
And before he would start
work every night,
he referred to it
as his work,
they would go
into the wiring closet,
the telephone wiring closet
of the company,
and he would rewire
all the phones
so anybody looking for him
on a physical basis,
like if they'd actually
tap the line physically,
would be led to other offices
in the building.
Uh-huh.
Are we still on?
Yes, that was just
somebody tapping our line,
apparently.
But he would also,
if you control the switch,
I mean, you know,
you control the horizontal,
you control the vertical,
you can do anything you want.
And they had access
to all of the central office
switching locations
in California
through control
of the minis.
That, basically,
the big telephone switches
are controlled
by minicomputers,
and the minicomputers
had dial-ups
that were protected
just by passwords,
which is incredibly,
I mean,
you probably have discussed
this ad nauseum
on the show,
but, I mean,
it's bad security.
Apparently,
they're using
physical security now
and callback stuff.
But even callback stuff
is not perfect,
if you can see.
No, it's not.
It can be easily faked out.
Yeah.
Tell me something.
If Kevin Mitnick
picked up this paper
and saw his picture in it,
what do you think
his reaction
would be about now?
Um, I don't know.
I suppose it depends
on what Kevin's
been doing.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and, you know,
since I haven't talked
to Kevin,
although I made
an effort to,
um, I, you know,
I don't know
what his reaction is.
Um, you know,
if he's doing the things
the FBI alleges
he's doing,
I mean, you know,
I could see Kevin
just taking off
and trying to live
as a fugitive underground.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I, you know,
given the fact
that the FBI
was after him,
I think that might be,
you know,
and the fact
he's been in prison twice
and probably doesn't
want to go back
to prison.
Well, especially
because, uh,
when he was in prison
he was put in
solitary confinement
for a few months.
Yeah.
Uh, simply because
they were afraid
to have him
anywhere near a telephone.
Do you think
that is, is,
is a rational way
of dealing with this?
I think that's
an irrational fear
on the part of,
you know,
I mean,
uh, many people
are, are mystified
and frightened
of technology.
And, uh,
a person like Kevin,
Kevin sort of
strikes fear
into, into a lot
of people's hearts.
Um, on the other
hand, you know,
I'm, I'm, I'm,
I'm sympathetic
with Kevin up to a
point, but there,
you know, you reach
a point where, um,
I mean, I just feel
he has no business
going into the
computers of, of
these cell phone
manufacturers if
he's doing that.
Um, if he's
crossed that line,
I basically don't
think he should be
out and running
around.
Um, he's not,
you know, he's not
sort of, uh, being
a productive member
of society.
Um, if he hasn't,
um, you know, and
there's no proof
that he's done that,
then, um, then
it's a fugitive case
and he's a probation
violator.
That's a very
different, uh,
question.
As far as I know
that, uh, at least
in Chicago, that
was the only thing
that I could get a
straight answer on
from the FBI as
to what it was he
was wanted for, uh,
violating probation,
not being in a
certain place at a
certain time.
Um, as
for the rest of
it, it can be
rather difficult to,
even though, um,
we're innocent
until proven guilty,
it can be kind of
difficult to say
that, uh, you're
not responsible for
a particular, uh,
uh, computer crime
when someone says
that you are.
It's, it's very,
the evidence is
kind of, uh, kind
of easy to fabricate
or to misinterpret.
It has happened
before.
Point that we're
being, we're
treating Kevin unfairly
that, uh, that, uh,
you know, he's
innocent until proven
guilty.
Mm-hmm.
And that, uh, he
shouldn't be under
this kind of
scrutiny.
Well, it seems like
he's under a
tremendous amount
of scrutiny.
I mean, just from
having his picture
there and all that.
Yeah, and, you
know, I mean, I, I
agree with you.
Um, however, I
didn't make the
decision to write
about him until I
spent a day with a
cell phone company
and went over in
great detail what
had happened.
Um, that coupled
with hearing from the
FBI agents and hearing
what they were looking
for, um, and just
sort of knowing
Kevin's MO, um, made
me feel that this was
something that was
out of the usual.
I mean, I try not to
cover, you know, um,
every, you know, every
computer break-in.
I mean, I, I, I don't
want to be on the, you
know, the computer cop
beat.
Um, but there are some
things that I think sort
of stand out, um, because
of just the, of the
boldness of the action.
I mean, you know, in
some senses, I'm in awe
of Kevin, um, if in
fact he's doing this,
the persistence that
he's shown and the,
sort of, the daring and
the skills, uh, really
sort of are not, um, you
know, this is not garden
variety computing
hacking.
This is something else.
And that's, I think,
why it merits, um, the
attention of the
newspaper.
I agree.
I mean, it does merit
attention.
What, what concerns me
is that, uh, uh, we
don't seem to be, uh,
focusing, uh, the same
eye on things like the
FBI, on the cellular
companies, when something
that might embarrass them,
it's, we, we kind of
avoid the topic and just
move on to something
else.
Well, I, you know, I, I
think I, I have to agree
with you.
I think it was probably,
um, it was, it was
disappointing to me that
the, the, the details
about the CFP thing were
not in the story.
Um, however, you know, I,
I don't try to play just
one side of the street.
I mean, I don't know if
you talked about it, but
when I found out that
there was a flaw in the
clippers, in the clipper
chip, um, I wrote about
it and the paper played
that also played that
story very prominently.
Um, you know, and I, I,
in that case, I was
surprised by the play, but
it's an, it's, you know,
it's an important
political issue.
Um, you know, it's the,
the paper makes those
decisions.
Uh, and, you know, I
agree with you where the
piece plays in the, in
the newspaper is almost
in some cases more, more
important than what it
says.
Um, and that's something
I don't have any control
over.
Yeah.
I mean, you're, you're
getting calls now from
America's Most Wanted, and,
um, I mean, where do you
think the story's going to
go now?
Well, it's already been
picked up by the Times of
London, and BBC is working
on their version of the
story, and, um, you know,
I mean, this society has
always had a fascination
with outlaws.
And, and, you know, most
outlaws today are pretty
depressing people.
I mean, you know, look at
the kind of serial killing
stuff we go on, we go on
and focus on.
I mean, you know, look at
what's on television today,
and here you find a person
who hasn't killed anybody.
You know, I mean, he's
almost, you could almost
construe him as a Robin Hood
kind of figure.
Um, and, you know, this is a
society without a lot of
romance.
And here's someone who's
really sort of acting out a
lot of people's fantasies.
Um, so, I mean, I, have
you asked me sort of why it
catches the fancy, why it
gets more attention than
other things?
I think that's why.
What do you, what is he
actually facing if he is,
uh, man?
Well, um, I, you know, I, I
haven't explored this, but I
was wondering, you know,
California has this three
strikes, um, law that's
going into effect.
I think that he doesn't
fall under that, but it's
not impossible.
You know, he's been in
prison twice.
You're saying he could be
facing life?
Well, can you, I don't
think so.
I think it had, I think
they're, that's, deals only
with violent crime.
But, um, you know, they're
mandatory.
Now, if it's just parole
violation, I don't think
it's a serious, I mean, I
don't think he'll, he'll do
some jail time, but it won't
be years and years.
But this DMV thing could be a
huge problem.
Mm-hmm.
Um, you know, that's, those
are five to ten year kind of,
um, prison terms that you
can face for that kind of
stuff.
Uh-huh.
We're speaking with John
Markoff from the New York
Times.
Uh, John, do you have a
couple of minutes to, uh,
take some phone calls with
us?
Sure.
Okay.
Our phone number is 212-279-3400.
We ask that, uh, you, uh,
try and stick to the subject.
I know there's a lot of
things to talk about out
there.
We were going to talk about
the, uh, Star 77 feature
this, uh, this week, but,
uh, due to all these things
that have been happening,
we're going to do that next
week.
Um, Star 77 is a new
feature that the phone
company will be offering.
That's all we're going to
say.
Because otherwise we'll have to
keep talking about it.
Uh, 212-279-3400.
The program is off the
hook.
Good evening.
You're on the radio.
Hello?
Yes, go ahead.
Uh, yes.
I know this is kind of off
the topic, but I...
What did I ask?
The first thing...
All right, go ahead.
Go ahead.
I know.
I was wondering if you
guys knew of any, uh,
internet boards that
provide free access.
I know there's one in
Illinois, but that's kind
of far from here.
Uh, free access?
Or cheap?
Well, there's...
There are a lot of
boards in New York that
offer fairly inexpensive,
but...
And we've talked about
that in the past.
And there's also
universities which you
can get for simply the
cost of a class.
Uh-huh.
Um, but I mean, it's
something that we deal
with on an ongoing
basis.
Uh-huh.
We have to present the
list of different things
to you.
Uh-huh.
So there are no boards
around here that provide
it for free?
Uh, not that I know of.
If I find out something
to the contrary, I will
let everybody know.
Okay.
All right?
Thanks a lot.
Um, one other thing.
Yes.
I just want to ask if the
summer edition of 2600 is
out, yeah?
Yes, it's out.
It got sent to
subscribers.
It should be in
bookstores real soon.
Okay.
Thanks a lot.
Okay.
Go on.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Yeah, um, I was
wondering, um, I'm on
the air right now?
Yes, go ahead.
Yeah, um, I have a
scanner and, um, I have,
uh, I pick up a cellular
telephone and, um, I was
wondering, is that
illegal or illegal?
Uh, well, actually,
John, maybe you could
answer this better than
me.
I believe it's illegal.
I can't cite the law
to you, but, um...
Is it illegal to have
the scanner or is it
illegal to turn it on or
to listen or what?
It is, it is illegal to
use the scanner.
Um, I believe it's also
illegal to have the
scanner.
Um, the, um, I can't
cite the law for you at
the moment, though.
Right, because, um, I
had one, I had a, uh,
chip taken out of it.
I had the radio
modified and it picks up
the whole band.
And now I have a
portable, the way I
just bought a couple
of weeks ago.
And I noticed that they
expanded the band, the
coverage on the cellular
phone.
And it also picks it up.
Well, what do you
mean they've expanded
it?
Yeah, well, since, uh,
years ago, the, the, the,
the 800-bit is, uh, a
lot wider than it used
to be.
Well, how wide does it
go?
Oh, well, a couple of,
uh, a lot, they had a
lot of extra channels on
it, I noticed.
You know, it used to, it
went from, uh, 840
megahertz all the way
up to, uh, now it goes
all the way up to, I
think, 912.
And it used to go up to,
uh, 860.
And, uh, they used to
put a blackout chip on
the scanner.
And, uh, and, uh, that's
how I'd pick it up.
Well, I know that there
are going to be a lot more
cellular frequencies at some
point, uh, in the future.
John, I know, I know you've
been writing on that, um,
or, uh, I know your paper
has been writing on that
anyway.
Uh, new allocations by the
FCC for personal
communication services?
Digital stuff.
I mean, most of the, uh,
what's happening is most of
the stuff is going to go
digital over the next half
decade.
And the digital stuff will
be somewhat harder to
listen to.
You won't be able to use a
standard scanner.
And, uh...
Uh-huh.
And also, it'll be
cheaper for consumers,
right?
Uh, well, some of these,
uh, some of these new
technologies will be very
cheap.
That's true.
Uh-huh.
Um, although it doesn't
seem like it's happening
very quickly, does it?
No, it doesn't.
But I'm sure it's, uh, it'll
happen before the end of
this century.
And yours is my lifetime,
maybe.
Okay, thanks for the call.
Let's go on to some, uh,
some other calls.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Hello, speak up.
Yeah, hello.
Let me just turn on my
radio.
Okay.
Two things about that
scanner situation.
It's not illegal to have a
scanner made before a
certain date, but it is
against the law to listen
to the cellular frequencies
because you're violating
the Privacy Act.
Okay.
I mean, is there anybody
here that does not think
that's rather silly?
I think it's silly.
I'm a ham operator.
I think that saying, taking
a radio like the R7000 and
now, uh, you can't buy it
anymore.
You're quoting a black
market.
Why do these scanners now
have doubled in price?
You will never be able
to stop them.
You should, the
responsibility should be
on the manufacturers to
do whatever they have to
do to secure their
system.
The manufacturers are
doing this not because
they think it's going to
help anything.
My belief, they're doing
it because they think
it's a selling point.
Are you talking about
the, the scanner
manufacturers or the
cellular manufacturers?
Scanner manufacturers,
of course they want to
sell scanners.
Uh-huh.
Get them ordered.
Now, what else to listen
to on a scanner except
to the police and a
couple other things.
In the next five years,
it'll all be digital.
Anyway, the only reason
why this EPA thing was
brought about, it was
because the cellular
manufacturers had more
clout than anybody else.
And the last comment I'd
like to make was you were
discussing the technology
that the other gentleman
in California said, the
technology for the new
telephones won't be able
to be copied.
That's incorrect.
Anything that's manufactured
by one manufacturer will be
figured out, just like in
the video game business
or any other electronics,
I haven't found hardware yet
that has been protected
because of the custom chip.
Well, no, I agree with you.
It's a question of what
it will cost.
I mean, technically,
it's certainly possible,
but when you're talking
about VLSI semiconductors,
the investment you have to
make to reverse engineer
it is significant.
Well, yeah, but if you
understand what's happening,
you don't have to,
you can use a lot more chips.
There are, in the video
game business,
when they come out with
special LSI chips,
then they use regular chips
that just build up enough
digital blocks to do the
function of an LSI.
If there is a market for it,
if there's a demand for a
product, then somebody's
going to manufacture it.
Just like they want to
stop cigarette smoking.
If the government says
you can't do this,
then somebody's going to
come up with that product
to do it because there'll
be a market for it,
just like in booze.
The government should
stop telling people
what they can and cannot
do.
That seems to be a theme
we keep coming back to.
Thanks for the call.
Good night.
Any comments, John?
No, basically, in principle,
I agree with him.
I mean, you know, the
clipper is a classic
example.
The incentive there would
be very high, either
whether it's on principle
or for economic reasons
to reverse engineer it,
but it would be very
expensive.
A government could
certainly do it.
Probably a large
Japanese corporation
could do it.
But, you know,
it's not cheap.
It doesn't come for free.
I mean, you know,
you need electron
microscopes.
You need all kinds of
technology to tackle
these tasks.
Okay, let's see if we
can fit in some more
phone calls.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Hello?
Go ahead.
I just wanted to make
a comment about
Kevin Mitnick's story.
Go ahead.
Um, well, my first
impression when I read
it was like the old
joke, you know,
Generalissimo Francisco
Franco is still dead,
that there was no real
news story and that,
you know, it must have
been a light news day
and, uh, they needed
some filler stories.
But, uh, also, with,
um, along with Katie
Hafner, John Mark,
Markoff wrote the
cyberpunk book.
Yes, I, you're aware
of that, aren't you,
John?
I, I remember.
Okay.
But, uh, Kevin Mitnick,
um, in the 2600 issue,
I think, uh, summer issue,
Kevin Mitnick, like,
said that it wasn't
really a true story.
Mm-hmm.
Well, I, I know Kevin
has, has taken exception
to a lot of what has
been said about him,
uh, uh, various things
including, um, him,
uh, uh, changing
people's phone numbers
or, or creating fake
press releases,
things like that.
He says that that was
never actually what
happened.
Uh, uh, the, the one
disadvantage to the story,
of course, and it's not,
it's not John's fault,
but, uh, we don't really
get to hear, uh, Kevin's
side of the story
because Kevin is, in fact,
on the run and, and
nobody knows how to get
a hold of him.
Well, maybe he'll be at
Hope.
Yeah.
Well, you know, it's funny
because, uh, at one point
I had talked to him about
that and he, he did
express an interest in
going, but, uh, he
realized that that would
probably not happen.
Although, uh, the way
the FBI operates, he would
probably have to walk up
to them, introduce
himself, show ID to
prove it was him, and,
uh, explain to them
exactly why he was
wanted before they would
actually take him into
custody.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Bye.
All right, thanks for
calling.
Adios.
Um, that, the whole CFP
thing, though, was, uh,
was historical as far as,
uh, as, as bungled
operations.
It's a shame, really, that
that couldn't be shared a
little bit more, more
often because, um, it
really is quite a story.
I agree.
I'm sure we'll have, uh,
some, some survivors of
that at Hope as well.
Good evening.
You're on the radio.
Go ahead.
Everyone seems to be
kind of in shock when I
first put them on.
Oh, there you are.
Anybody there?
All right, no one's
there.
Let's go to the next
line.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Yes, hi.
Uh, before you forget.
Yes.
Um, what about Star 77?
Uh, well, we were going
to talk about that, but
we're going to have to
postpone that for next
week.
Aw, man, you left us
hanging for a whole week.
Yeah, I know, I know.
And it doesn't work yet.
Uh, no, that's just it.
It doesn't work.
It doesn't do anything, so
there's no point, really,
in, in, in thinking about
it right now, but next
week we will tackle it,
I promise.
Promise?
Promise, yes.
Okay.
Okay?
Okay.
All right, take care.
I hate disappointing
people like that, but then
again, yeah, yeah, then
again, you know, I kind
of like disappointing
people sometimes.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Manuel, Milo Fondel.
Hi, how are you?
Good, how are you?
Phone freak of the past.
Yeah, well, I keep
creeping up, don't I?
I'm sure you read John
Markoff's articles a lot.
Uh, yeah, with mixed
interest.
Okay.
Listen, I understand David
Jansen's going to play
Kevin Mitnick in the
upcoming Kevin Mitnick
story.
Is that right?
Well, that's, that's,
that's going to be quite a
TV movie, or is it a
miniseries?
Uh, don't know.
I, I understand it's
going to be serial.
No doubt Fox's first
crack at it.
Do you have any info on,
on anything about, uh,
some hacking something or
other problem I just, uh,
read about on a board?
Uh, the name that comes
up is Death Vegetable?
Death Vegetable?
You'll have to, you'll
have to be a little bit
more descriptive than
that.
Well, that's, that's
apparently the, the
fellow's handle.
Um, I understand he's
supposed to be on TV
tomorrow night, but.
Oh, okay, yes, there
is something tomorrow
night on Dateline from,
uh, somebody in Boston.
I was just up there, and
yeah, uh, they, they did
some interviews, and from
what I understand, they
were a bit, um, uh,
confrontational about it.
In other words, they, they
brought up some things of,
of this person's past,
which weren't really
relevant to the story,
and simply served to
throw him off guard, uh,
in that, you know, um,
Geraldo style.
So, we'll just have to see
how that turned out.
But yeah, that's NBC
tomorrow night at 10
o'clock, I know that
much.
Ah, okay.
All right?
Great, thanks a bunch.
Okay, take care.
It's always good when I
have the answer, isn't
it?
That's impressive.
All right, let's, uh,
go on to the phone
call.
Good evening, you're on
the air.
Hi, Emmanuel, great show
as always.
Thank you.
Um, just wondering,
about, Cyberpunk was a
wonderful book.
Um, just wondering, you,
the author of it, I
forget your name.
Uh, John Markoff, and my
co-author was Katie
Hafner.
Yeah, in, uh, in that
book, you always, you
portrayed him sort of as,
you know, more of an
evil person.
I mean, I don't really
want to say evil, but,
I mean, you even called
him a dark side hacker.
No, no, no, no, we
never called him a dark
side hacker.
We said that the Los
Angeles newspapers called
him a dark side hacker.
Oh, okay.
That's a difference.
And we didn't portray
him as evil.
Um, you know, I, I think
we were pretty, pretty
straightforward.
I mean.
Yeah, yeah, I mean,
I'm not saying, I'm
not saying anything
better, anything's wrong
with it.
What I'm wondering is,
you know, I mean, he
seemed just like, um,
just from what he did,
a manipulative person,
you know, from, from
the stories that you
got from your
interviews.
Uh-huh.
Um, I was wondering if
you ever met him, or
Emmanuel, if you've ever
met him, what kind of a
person he really is.
Well, Emmanuel knows
it better.
I've spoken with Kevin
on the phone.
I, me, uh, me, Rob
from Hacktick, and, and
Kevin hung out in Las
Vegas once, and we all
went gambling together.
I, I'll bet we had
several agencies watching
us then, and we
actually came out with
quite a bit of money
after we went in.
Uh, and all, all
legally, too.
I was just very lucky.
Um, but, no, he's,
uh, he's actually, I
found him to be a very
nice person, uh, you
know, a rather social
person.
Um, I have not
witnessed his, his
hacking, uh, side, but,
um, I do know that
he's a decent person.
He has a decent side to
him, at least.
So, uh, that's, that's
really all I can say.
Yeah.
I guess, well, you
know, every story can
become twisted between,
you know, every, all the
different sides of it.
Um, but I really do
wish we could have
gotten Kevin's side on
this one.
Yeah.
Well, you know, if, uh,
if we hear from Kevin,
we'll certainly try and
get his side.
Um, and if he is, um,
if he has picked up,
obviously, uh, well,
do everything possible
to hear his side of the
story then.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, thanks a lot.
Okay.
Take care.
Uh, now, John, you
didn't actually, uh, speak
with, uh, with Kevin,
though, for the book,
did you?
Uh, well, that's a good
point.
Um, he refused to
cooperate with us.
Uh-huh.
Um, and so,
so we had to rely on
Lenny DeCicco and, um,
Susan Headley and
Louis Dupain, people
who had, and Stephen
Rhodes, people who had,
uh, been friends of
Kevin in the past.
In the past, though,
then we're not friends
with him at present.
Well, it was, it was
Lenny who turned Kevin
in after Kevin had
played this prank on
him.
Right.
So they weren't
exactly in the best of
terms then.
That's fair.
Yeah.
So, I mean, uh,
it's clearly a one-sided
story.
Right.
I, I, I agreed
because Kevin wouldn't,
wouldn't, uh, wouldn't
spend time with us.
Uh-huh.
And there's not much
you can do about that
except you, you try to,
you know, sort out the
facts from the fiction
and we did the best we
could.
Uh-huh.
Okay, let's take, uh,
one or two more phone
calls.
Good evening.
You're on.
Hello.
Uh, I'm calling to ask
you a question slightly
off topic.
Okay, make it fast.
Okay.
On a scanner,
a play scanner,
is it possible to listen
to, uh, the, uh,
studio transmitter link
between AM stations
and the transmitters?
Uh, well, studio
transmitter links tend
to be either phone lines
or, uh, very, very
high frequencies.
I believe microwave
links.
Uh, standard scanner
would not be able
to get that.
Uh, there are, there
are links of lower
frequencies that you
should be able to get.
I'm not 100% certain
on this because I've
never actually tried
that.
Uh, but if you, if
you watch a TV station
late at night, you'll
see there's a certain
hour, usually around
five o'clock or so
if they don't go
off the air, uh,
where they identify
their studio transmitter
link and the frequency
of it.
Look at your scanner,
see if it, if it
receives that kind
of a frequency.
I, I do know that
your scanner will
receive audio signals
from a TV, uh, station
and, of course, uh,
if it receives, uh,
FM transmissions,
it'll just get the
frequency as it is.
Uh-huh.
Okay, thank you.
Okay, good luck.
I think we have time
for one more call.
Good evening.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
Okay.
Sorry, you've got to
speak faster than that.
Good evening.
Hi.
Is this still Emanuel?
Yes.
Speak up, please.
Yeah.
Can you hear me?
Yes.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
I was wondering,
Emanuel, I didn't
catch your program
tonight, but if one
wanted to send
something out to
California to a
court system, what's
your intelligent guess?
Would a judge open
it or would they,
would a telegram be
the only official way
if you wish to send
something and get it
fast to someone like
that, such a, you
know, an official
person like that?
An official person
like what?
A judge.
You want to send
something to a judge
in California?
Or a judge goes to
his court, though.
I would want to send
it previous to their
getting at the
courthouse.
But if I have to do
it then, I would do
it there, too.
Would that be
something that...
Sounds like you
have some insider
knowledge of some
sort there.
No, no, no.
I just want to write
to that judge and tell
her my opinion and do
it in a brief way.
I don't want it
lost and I don't
want her not to
open it, if you
know what I'm
saying.
Is this a judge we
know about?
Yeah, the lady that's
sitting on the
Simpson court.
I thought so.
Well, I don't really,
I don't have her
address or anything
like that.
I don't know how to
get a hold of her
faster.
I mean, the best way
to do it, obviously...
If you wanted to
give a message to
someone that occupied,
that's already going
to make the decision
overnight.
So I would like to
get it to the person
before they make the
decision, if you
know what I'm saying.
Which they're making
tomorrow.
Exactly.
She's making it
tonight.
It's already going
to be a done deal
in the morning.
Well, gosh, you
know, if you know
her name, give her
a call.
How do you get
someone's name like
that, though?
Well, no, her name
is pretty much out
there, but I don't
know if her number...
What would one do?
How would you get
one's private home?
Well, maybe she has
not thought to make
her number unlisted.
You always have that
possibility.
So you basically
figure the city
where this is taking
place, Los Angeles,
213 area code, you
call information, ask
for her by name, and
maybe you'll get
somebody, a relative, you
ask them, hey, is
so-and-so around?
I don't know.
You might get lucky
that way.
I don't know how
you're going to get
a message to this
person before tomorrow
short of taking over
a local TV station
and broadcasting it
yourself.
I knew you would
think of something
wild like that.
I can't do that.
Please don't do that,
okay, because I'll
probably get in trouble.
I'm not a question,
Emmanuel, but you
sure think big.
I thought of some
other way, and I
just wondered how
that fellow that was
arrested is doing,
that young person
you gave us, his
address.
Right, fiber optic.
Is he anything
better with him?
He is still in
prison, obviously, and
he definitely could
use some mail.
You don't have it
handy.
I meant one time to
ask you, because I
never got to write to
him.
Yeah, I can give you
his address, actually.
He had a number and
all that, right?
Yeah, but we are out
of time, so I'm going
to have to do that as
we sign off, okay?
Oh, sure.
All right, so thanks
for calling.
You can do it over
the year.
Yes, I will.
Thanks.
Okay.
John, I just want to
take this time to
thank you for showing
up and for giving us
feedback from your
particular point of
view.
Thanks for having me,
Emmanuel.
Okay.
I'm looking for Mark's
address here.
Basically, fiber optic,
you can write to him
by writing to Mark
Abene, A-B-E-N-E, and
his address is Mark
Abene, 3-2-1-0-9-0-5-4,
and that's F-P-C, as
in Federal Prison Camp,
School Kill, S-C-H-U-Y-L-K-I-L-L,
Unit 1, P.O. Box 670,
Minersville, Pennsylvania,
1-7-9-5-4.
That's our show for
tonight.
Thanks very much for
tuning in.
We'll be back again next
week.
Good night.
The telephone keeps
ringing, so I ripped
it off the wall.
I cut myself while
shaving, now I can't
make a cough.
It couldn't get much
worse.
Good evening.
In the news tonight,
rape driven by politics
is on the rise in Haiti.
A new peace plan for the
Balkans gets the thumbs
down from the main players,
and in New York, the mayor
and his police department
announced police strategy
number five.
What does it mean for you
and me, and does it
violate the Constitution?
With these and other
stories, I'm Jose Santiago
in New York with
Werner Avery Brown in
Washington, and this is the
news for Wednesday,
July 6, 1994.
First through Washington
for the Pacifica National
News.
This morning, the U.S.
Coast Guard picked up over
300 Haitians.
That makes over 14,000
Haitian refugees picked up
at sea since June 16th.
Randall Robinson, head of
TransAfrica, predicts the
numbers of Haitians fleeing
their homeland will force the
Clinton administration into
military action.
If there is an alternative to
intervention now, I simply
can't imagine what it would
be.
In Riga, President Clinton
has pledged millions of
dollars in aid to the Baltic
states and spoke of a Europe
free of Russian troops.
Clinton also appealed for
tolerance for Latvia's
Russian-speaking population.
Russian President Boris Yeltsin
has linked the withdrawal of
Russian troops from Latvia with
Latvian citizenship for Russians
residing there.
In Rwanda, Tutsi rebels have
named a moderate Hutu as leader
of their proposed government
of national unity.
Meanwhile, tension between
French troops and Rwandan
rebels seems to be easing.
Robin Lubbock has been
following the situation from
nearby Kenya.
The Rwandan rebel forces have
advanced to within a few
kilometers of French
positions, but for now it
appears as if some last-minute
negotiating has managed to
keep the two sides' guns
silent.
French forces have agreed to
pull back a little way, and
officials have assured the
rebels that they'll disarm any
soldiers in their safe area.
But human rights groups say
France should go further and
detain those responsible for
massacres who've taken refuge
under French protection.
If the South remains quiet,
that leaves the rebels to
concentrate their advance on
the remaining government
positions in the northwest of
Rwanda.
The interim government is
currently holed up in
Gisenye, a small town on the
border with Zaire.
There, the leader of
government forces has been
rallying his troops today.
He said when government
ammunition runs out, his
soldiers will continue the
war using alternative weapons.
For Pacifica Network News, I'm
Robin Lubbock in Nairobi.
The French defense minister
says the creation of safe
havens has been a success.
However, the French say their
troops may have to be kept in
Rwanda beyond the end of July
due to the lack of troops and
supplies for a U.N.
peacekeeping force which would
replace them.
In Buenos Aires, tens of
thousands of people marched
against the economic policies of
President Carlos Minham.
Argentina currently has a
record-high unemployment rate
of 10 percent, and many blame
Minham's privatizing of
government enterprises for the
loss of jobs.
Today's rally is the biggest
demonstration seen in
Buenos Aires in a decade.
PLO leader Yasser Arafat,
Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak
Rabin, and Foreign Minister
Shimon Peres were in Paris
today to receive UNESCO's
Peace Award.
But what was to have been a
ceremonial meeting became
procedural talks?
Patricia Brett in Paris filed
this report earlier today.
Yitzhak Rabin says the talks
led to an agreement with
Arafat on the next stage of
the peace process, extending
self-rule to the rest of the
West Bank.
The three men only met for one
hour and have busy afternoon
and evening schedules, but they
are expected to meet late
tonight for further talks.
These could look at questions
such as the size of Jericho,
the manning of international
border posts, and dealing
with Palestinian refugees.
Other possible topics include
the transfer of civilian
authority and the replacement
of Israeli forces by
Palestinian police in cities
and villages in the West
Bank.
Arafat also met with French
President François Mitterrand to
discuss financial aid, which
Arafat says is crucial to get
the Palestinian economy back on
its feet.
Patricia Brett, Pacifica Network
News, Paris.
A bill providing $65 million
for restoration of historic
buildings at black colleges has
been delayed, reportedly because
Senator Bob Dole wants $3.6
million earmarked for a Kansas
school with only 3% black
enrollment.
And those are the stories
stopping the news.
Criticism continued today over the
Clinton administration's new policy
toward Haitian refugees.
Yesterday, the White House
announced that any Haitians picked
up at sea and granted refugee
status would not be brought to the
U.S., but sent to refugee camps in
Panama, Antigua, or Dominica.
And today, the U.S.
Embassy in Port-au-Prince bought
radio spots telling Haitians that
if they flee by boat, they won't
make it to the U.S.
Speaking to reporters in Riga,
Latvia, President Clinton today
described his new policy as
appropriate, and he added he
believes the sanctions are having
an impact.
But activist Randall Robinson,
director of TransAfrica, today
charged sanctions will not work in
time to reverse the military
repression in Haiti.
And he predicted the new refugee
policy will also fail as the so-called
safe havens begin to fill to capacity.
Robinson told reporters the time has
come for military intervention.
We now have no option but to undertake
a hemispheric intervention under the
aegis of the United Nations, the troops
making up this kind of force quickly
replaced by United Nations peacekeepers.
I think the longer we wait, the worse it
will get.
We simply extend the agony of people
in the region.
He added he has reason to believe the
Clinton White House is seriously
considering intervention.
The U.S. has sent four more ships to
the waters off Haiti.
The amphibious assault group is carrying
2,000 Marines as well as attack
helicopters.
One of the ships is capable of landing
armored vehicles.
Yet the White House special envoy to
Haiti, William Gray, has said an invasion
is not imminent, although the option is
still on the table.
And speaking on ABC television this
morning, Gray said he believes Haiti's
military regime will be gone in six
months.
At the State Department, however,
spokesperson Christine Shelley told
reporters there's no timeline.
Mr. Gray himself has indicated that we
want the military leadership to go and we
want them to go as soon as possible.
But I don't think in terms of that there is
a precise time horizon by which any
particular things have to take place.
Outside the White House, dozens of
activists protested the Clinton
administration's Haiti policy.
Police arrested seven people for civil
disobedience.
Nancy Nimsic with Pennsylvania's Delaware
County Pledge of Resistance called for tighter
sanctions but no military intervention.
We believe strongly that when the U.S.
militarily intervenes, it does not lead to
restoring a democracy in a country.
It does not lead to empowering poor people to
control their lives and make their own
decisions.
Meanwhile, out in the Caribbean, Haitians
continue to flee the military regime.
More than 300 were picked up today, taking the toll
since June 15th to more than 14,000 refugees.
And back in Haiti, the military and paramilitary
violence continues.
One form of violence just beginning to be
documented is the surge of politically
motivated rape.
Amy Goodman reports from Port-au-Prince.
Janine is the mother of two children.
Last October, four armed men, several in
uniform, entered her house.
They were carrying Uzis and rifles.
First, they raped her.
They went through my things to whatever
draw we and little other articles that
interested them.
And when they were through, they said,
OK, now lay down.
Because on December 16th, I saw you in the
street, you were so happy dancing because you
had voted for your father, Aristide.
So now you're going to celebrate, lay down.
The men beat and raped her as her 12-year-old
son looked on.
Mireille is 31.
Last February 14th, armed men broke into her
house.
Her brothers were not living at home at the
time because their parents feared they would
be political targets.
The men pushed her 80-year-old father to the
ground and began to rampage through the
house.
My little sister covered her head with a sheet.
They unwrapped, they removed the sheet from her head
and slapped her.
Then they came over to me.
He raped me.
Two weeks later, the group returned.
This time, they only robbed the house.
Mireille and Janine are sitting around a table at the office of
SOFA, a Haitian women's group.