Fantastic occurrences in space with special guests,
and I'll be reporting live from an international conference of physicists in Paris.
It's all part of a full day of special science programming right here on Radio WBAI.
So tune in to Moonwalking Over Jupiter's Comet and Observing Space Junk.
That's Wednesday, July 20th at 7.30 p.m., only on Radio WBAI 99.5 FM.
And it's exactly 10 o'clock. You're listening to WBAI in New York.
Tonight, it's time for Off the Hook.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
It couldn't get much worse, but if I could, they would.
Bon Dillibon for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
Bon Dillibon!
Bon Dillibon!
And good evening to everybody.
This is Emmanuel Goldstein. The program is Off the Hook.
It's been a busy week. It's been a fun week.
It's been an exciting, thrilling, never-a-dull-moment type of week.
And there's lots of good reasons for that.
Lots of things are happening.
Lots of things looming on the horizon,
and some things falling right down on top of our heads.
We'll be getting into all that.
We have a special guest who we'll be talking to about some of that as well.
Before we do anything, I'd like to call a special number.
Dial tone, please.
Thank you.
This is a number that we called last week, except this week I think it's set up special.
Real special-like.
Let's see if it actually works.
AT&T. Easy reach service.
Your call will be forwarded to Albania.
You will be charged international long-distance rates.
Ah, yes. I've always wanted to hear that.
Okay, we're not going to hit any more keys,
but that's just another example of the AT&T easy reach service.
You can forward your calls now to anywhere in the world
and hear the nice lady pronounce the country of your choice.
Okay, we had a promise.
We had a vow.
We had something that we said we were going to do last week,
and we did not do it.
And we are going to do it this week.
We're going to talk about a couple of features.
We're going to get to that in just a moment.
We're also going to talk about some startling news developments
concerning a national ID card.
Yeah, a national ID card.
It could be happening any second.
Really. We're not kidding.
We're going to talk about that tonight.
We're also going to update you on the 2600 case,
something which has just happened over the past day, I believe.
So stay tuned.
This is Off the Hook.
Have you ever asked yourself,
who holds the key that winds up big then?
We're going to see you next week.
We're going to ask you on the fly.
We're going to have you?
We're going to ask you on the fly.
I believe we said we were going to talk about Star 7-7 tonight.
Well, that's what we're going to do.
You have a rotary dial phone.
No, I don't have a rotary dial phone, and I don't like being accused of such things.
Or just remain on the line.
Okay.
Description of call ID.
No, we don't want that.
Word ID now.
To learn how to prevent your number from being displayed on a call ID device, say the word prevent now.
To hear a description of call return, say the word return now.
To learn how to prevent someone from learning your phone number when you use call return, say the word prevent now.
To learn how to receive calls only from those willing to reveal their phone number, say the word reveal now.
Reveal now.
Anonymous call rejection prevents callers who are using either per call or all call restrict, the service that hides their number, from ringing your phone.
Instead, they hear a message saying that you will not accept the call.
In order to reach you, they must call you back without using call restrict.
The service works when the call is coming from inside your 9X regional calling area.
If the call is coming from outside your area, it will be connected.
However, even call ID service would not enable you to learn that number.
This service is being tested in Dutchess, Ulster, Sullivan, and Northern Orange Counties.
Call ID subscribers in this area will be able to use this new service at no additional cost during this test period,
which runs from July 1st through November 1st, 1994.
The service is not available in other areas.
To learn how to activate anonymous call rejection, say the word activate now.
Activate!
To turn on anonymous call rejection using a touch-tone phone, press the star key and then dial 77.
If you're using a rotary dial phone, simply dial 1177.
To turn the service off, press star 87.
If you are using a rotary phone, dial 1187.
Once you have the service, you can turn it on and off whenever you want, as many times as you want.
To learn more about anonymous call rejection, say the word more now.
No more.
To learn how to activate anonymous call rejection, say the word activate now.
Activate.
Why not?
To turn on anonymous call rejection using a touch-tone phone, press the star key and then dial 77.
Didn't he just tell us this?
If you're using a rotary dial phone, simply dial 1177.
I know.
1177.
To turn the service off.
Star 87 or 1187 from a rotary phone.
You are using a rotary phone, dial 1187.
Miles ahead of you here.
Once you have the service, you can turn it on and off whenever you want, as many times as you want.
Okay, I can't hang up my phone now, so how do I get rid of you?
To learn more about anonymous call rejection, say the word more now.
To return to the main menu, say the word menu now.
This is getting tiresome.
I don't want to go to the back.
Description of call ID.
Say the word.
If you say anything.
Now.
Okay, we're going to hang up.
Let you see the telephone number up.
No, no, we don't want to hear anymore.
We're going to turn you down.
On a special display.
This is not voice recognition.
This is just you hear a sound and...
O-I-D-7.
Because you hear a sound, you assume I'm saying the word you want me to say, and I'm not doing that.
Devices are so stored to sell telephone equipment.
And there are several...
Okay, while she's bantering on about that, we have a couple of other details.
First of all, AT&T has announced the 500 area code that we have talked about over the past few weeks.
AT&T has announced a new service that will give consumers personal long-distance numbers in the new 500 area code beginning July 12th.
Yeah, that was yesterday.
Called AT&T True Connections.
The worldwide 500 number service will give customers flexible, advanced personal numbers that travel with them.
Well, we've told you all this before, but...
Someone might use a phone number by using either.
All right, that's enough for her.
Basically, it's the same kind of thing as AT&T's 0700 service known as EasyReach.
However, there are a couple of interesting features here, which might be useful, might be annoying, who knows.
With these particular 500 numbers, consumers will be able to have their calls follow them to more than one location.
That's right, it's called call sequencing.
Call sequencing.
That means you can program your phone to ring twice at home, and then twice at the office, then twice in the car, and then finally go to a voicemail box.
Now, I don't know how you make phone calls, but I'm not a very patient person.
I don't sit around counting the rings and saying, well, now here I'm going over here, and I usually hang up after a ring and a half.
Somebody doesn't pick up right away, then they're not near the phone.
I don't want to talk to them.
So, I don't know.
AT&T has some rather grandiose views of how people are going to play with this, but it'll be interesting.
And we still don't know what the 600 area code is for.
You notice they skipped right over the 600 area code, went down to 500.
So, supposedly 600 is being used for something, but nobody is saying exactly what.
Okay, we also have some updates on the MetroCard system.
It's called the Cube system, for one thing.
That is the name of the actual machine that is running, or the company that has installed the machines.
I've looked over some of the actual documentation for this system, and I've noticed that they call the device that takes your card, or that you swipe your card through, the magnetic card reader slash writer.
Now, as I've said many times, I don't believe it's writing to the card at all.
In fact, I think most of the information is just stored in a computer, which is there at the train station.
And that's how the information is transmitted to the mainframe.
For something to be able to write on a swipe is rather hard to imagine.
For something to be able to read and write on one swipe like that is inconceivable.
So, I don't believe it's actually a reader-writer.
However, if anybody has any more information to either prove me wrong or to back me up, please send it in, or bring it by, or phone it in, or mail it to us.
Whatever. There's all kinds of things you can do.
I was also looking over some very specific technical pieces on that, and they were talking about the various errors that can occur.
And they always referred to read errors on the card reader, but they never referred to write errors.
There was never a write problem.
So, that's what leads me to believe that they are incorrectly referring to it as a reader slash writer.
I'm also told that, this is interesting, if you perform a bad swipe, this is something we're going to experiment with, too.
If you perform a bad swipe, the MetroCard system asks you to swipe the card again.
In other words, if you go too fast, too slow, or what have you.
But, I am told, this is a rumor at this point, until we confirm it, you must use the same turnstile reader to re-swipe.
If you go to another turnstile to re-swipe, two trips get charged.
So, according to this person, the MTA system must read the card, alter the card, and verify the change.
Again, we're going to try it out.
We'll see what happens.
And hopefully, by the time of August 13th and 14th, the Hope Conference, we will have the system either cracked,
or we'll know that nobody will ever be able to crack it.
We'll just have to see what happens.
Okay, we're going to be moving on to some information about the National Identification Cards,
as well as the 2600 case in Washington, D.C.
And we have to get our special guest on the phone, so we'll take a very quick musical break.
We'll be back in a moment.
We'll be back in a moment.
We'll be back in a moment.
and the frustration that consumers have to exercise, go through on a daily basis when dealing with 9X.
And, you know, it wasn't as bad this week, but things still are kind of wacky, you know,
where things happen and you don't want them to, and you just want everything to be nice and normal.
You know, this week I decided to use a feature which I've had for some time, but I've never really used before,
and that's the feature known as call forwarding.
And that's where you dial star 72, and you enter the phone number you want calls to be forwarded to,
and when it picks up, then your calls are instantly forwarded there, or when you dial the number twice and let it ring once,
or if it's busy, it'll automatically be forwarded to that number.
Well, I did that, and lo and behold, every single call that went through wound up in a busy signal.
That's right, call forwarding was broken, and nobody could figure out why.
So I called repair service, and I said, you know, I've never used this service, I've had it all this time,
but I know how to use it, and no matter what number I forward it to, it's busy.
I mean, why do things like this happen?
And the person, of course, made it seem like it had to be something I'm doing wrong.
It had to be my equipment. It had to be just anything but them.
They told me they were going to charge me if they have to come to the house,
and I said, well, you know, you don't have to go to the house, you just have to reprogram your switch,
or fix the errant computer that is malfunctioning.
And, of course, they would hear none of that, and they just told me that I'd have to wait three days for it to be fixed.
Well, the next morning, the next morning, we got this phone call from a computer.
That's right, a computer called us.
That's what happens now when you report a line out of service.
Humans don't call you back. Machines do.
And this machine said, you reported a trouble on your phone line.
The trouble has been fixed.
Do you want a repairman to come out and see you anyway?
Say yes at this point, or press one.
It's that old 9X voice recognition thing that they're showing off.
And, of course, I had no idea what they were talking about,
because there were so many trouble reports on our phone lines that they weren't being specific.
It was just a generic recording.
So I didn't say anything.
And then it went on to the next question.
It said, have you been satisfied with our performance?
Please say yes at this point, or press two.
And, again, I didn't say anything.
And then they just simply said, we'll be sending a technician to visit you.
I guess that's their default.
And so a couple of days later, a technician came out to explain how call forwarding works.
I mean, they're wasting these poor people that have some brains on how to program a phone switch
and sending them out into the field to fix things that are fixed on computers.
So, of course, nobody was home, and this poor technician went out either to add insult to injury.
But that's another story.
Okay, some of you watching the CBS Evening News last night,
or actually all of you watching the CBS Evening News last night should have seen this.
Some of you may have had heart attacks when you heard it.
I heard about it, and I thought immediately it was a joke.
I have seen no reference in any newspapers today about this.
I hear that there's a reference in USA Today about this.
And now I also hear that CBS News is now referring to the story as coming from USA Today, not from CBS.
So that's rather strange.
The story is that the Clinton administration is looking favorably at a national ID card.
That's right, a national ID card, and supposedly this card has been recommended by a commission on immigration reform.
The extensive reason for the card is for employment and immigration.
Each card will contain a name, photo, mag stripe with info, and a verified Social Security number.
It was supported by Senator Alan Simpson of Wyoming, Governor Pete Wilson of California,
who is apparently offering to make California a testbed for the proposal.
And we have Dave Banasar on the phone from Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility over in Washington, D.C.
And, Dave, this is all a big joke, isn't it?
Well, first of all, we're epic now, but, yeah, we wish it were a big joke.
From what we understand, this bipartisan commission, the U.S. Commission on Immigration Reform, is going to.
They're sort of denying it now.
They sent out a press release not too long ago this afternoon on this.
They're sort of denying it, but it kind of looks like they're going to recommend this card.
Right now, what they're saying is that the card will only improve on what we have.
They want a secure Social Security card, but, frankly, that sounds pretty much the same as what the CBS people have been saying also.
Uh-huh.
Let me just backtrack a little bit.
When you said a moment ago that you were epic, I imagine that wasn't just egotism there.
You actually changed your name.
Right.
We're, well, that too, but we're now the Electronic Privacy Information Center.
That's a great name, actually, or great initials there, epic.
And that's what Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility will now be known as?
No, this is only the Washington office.
I see.
Okay.
We're still affiliated with CPSR, but we're not their Washington office anymore.
We're only a project of theirs.
I see.
Okay, so now this National ID card, I have not seen reference to it anywhere else.
How did CBS News get a hold of this?
Well, my people at CBS haven't called me back.
I did see it in USA Today, at least the electronic version of it, as of yesterday, I believe.
I haven't seen a physical version of USA Today.
But, after all, we all know, if you listen to the show, that if it's on a computer, it must be true.
Well, that's certainly the correct assumption here.
Now, such a card would be, from what you heard, mandatory to carry or mandatory to have?
They didn't mention mandatoriness one way or the other.
However, they did say that it would also be used for interacting with the government.
I can think of several uses for that.
One would be our beloved health security card, when that's introduced.
In addition, it could be used for, perhaps, to replace state driver's licenses, welfare cards, any of that sort of thing.
I mean, there's a lot of times when we need to deal with the government.
And this could certainly be used for those.
Maybe it could even become our library cards.
Wow.
And it could keep track of all kinds of bits of data about us.
The idea is actually to put digitized fingerprints on these?
That's another one of the things that CBS reported was going to be on it.
That's really unbelievable.
Now, I mean, of course, the problem isn't that there's a single piece of plastic.
It's that behind the mechanism of the plastic, there's a rather sophisticated network of computers that are now deliberately talking to each other.
Right, and talking about us.
Mishing about us, whether we want them to or not.
This happened in, they've tried this before in the United States.
First time was back in the early 60s.
They decided that the Agriculture Department was going to create something called the National Data Center.
That went over like a lead balloon, for some strange reason I've never quite figured out.
They tried this again in the early 1980s under the guise of keeping out those evil immigrants.
And it was rejected by Congress in 86 when they reformed law.
So there is no great love for this anywhere.
Now, what is it with the Clinton administration, though?
Why do they keep coming up with these ideas that people are just, without any exception, going to see as a violation of privacy?
Because the guy's got no spine.
I mean, I'll be the first to let you know that I'm a yellow dog Democrat.
That's a southern term for I'd rather vote for a yellow dog than a Republican.
But he's been a complete disappointment on the entire privacy issue, from health care reform, where he gives the Attorney General online access to the health security database,
to the Clipper chip and digital telephony, which it looks like will be reintroduced fairly soon, to this.
He's just been a complete disaster.
Now, there's been something similar in Australia.
You want to fill us in on that?
Right.
In 1987, they tried to do this in Australia.
And Simon Davies, who's now chairman of Privacy International, led a pretty wide-ranging campaign against it,
resulting in the federal parliament dissolving itself.
And there were riots in the streets in some of the Australian state capitals.
In one instance, the rioters tried to overturn a car with the regional minister in it,
and were throwing stones at it and all sorts of things.
Wow.
That means that's pretty serious business, then.
They were pretty serious.
It was the biggest protest in Australia since the Vietnam War.
So, I take it that that didn't really go far?
No, it was pretty soundly rejected.
And the follow-up to it just collapsed in the last couple months.
Do you think, personally, that it's just mere naivete that's leading politicians to suggest things like this?
Or is there something more ominous in the background?
I think the politicians are basically listening to the bureaucrats who are running the things.
And the bureaucrats love the idea of a national identifier.
It makes their job a lot easier to be able to punch in a single number and pull up everything they can find on a single person and that sort of thing.
So, I think it's being very bureaucratically driven.
Anything we see having to do with digital telephony and the clipper chip are all coming out of the FBI.
And if you look at the people that are dealing with this in the FBI, they're the same people there under Bush, the same people there under Reagan.
I mean, they've burrowed in.
It's sort of like you've got to have a flamethrower to get them out.
Yeah, well, now there's more news of a nicer nature that could or couldn't be considered to be related to this.
And that is concerning the 2600 Maul incident back in November of 1992.
What happened this week?
Well, a U.S. district court in the District of Columbia ruled that the Secret Service has to give us documents relating to the incident.
This is likely to be appealed, so don't hold your breath waiting for the documents to actually arrive.
But the court rejected more or less all the arguments of the Secret Service and said that they had to give us the documents that they obtained,
but that they had created that were from that incident.
These are documents that they made as a result of writing the meeting.
More likely than not, it's incident reports, things from the Secret Service people that were actually there,
reporting on what they did, what they saw, that sort of thing.
Very juicy stuff.
Now, there's some material, though, that the judge said we were not permitted to see.
Is that correct?
Well, if it's a pending investigation, you generally can't get it under FOIA.
For some strange reason, the government doesn't want John Gotti to know that it's investigating them or something like that.
Right.
So that material will not be released, but the judge said that all they had to do was to basically black out the names of the people that are being investigated,
but they had to give the rest of the document.
So what significant issues do you think will come out of this?
I know there was talk of finding out who it was that was spearheading the investigation.
Will we at last be able to see that?
That will probably come out if there was actually anybody spearheading the investigation.
Also, maybe some rationale behind it, if there was any.
We may be able to see that, too.
The companies that were involved, though, that's, I think, what a lot of people are interested in.
Right.
There's a good chance that those will come out since the judge rejected the idea that these people were actually confidential informants.
What were some of the highlights of the decision?
I know there was some talk about why it was not considered to be harmful to people to have information released about them.
Well, the judge felt that it wasn't too harmful since it was, first of all, the incident took place in a public forum where everybody was sitting around watching this happen,
and, second, because a lot of people had already filed the waivers to the Privacy Act so that they had requested their own files.
The judge didn't feel there was anything particularly secret about this incident that needed to be, that would get people embarrassed.
Uh-huh.
Yeah, and the Secret Service contention, though, was that it must all remain secret.
Right.
Well, that's a typical bureaucratic response to just about anything.
Wow.
So this case now has been going on for, well, it's going on two years.
Right.
Do you expect it to last this long?
Uh, under FOIA, that's probably a quicker response than usual.
Wow.
And you guys down there at Epic do nothing but FOIA sometimes.
You're like FOIA machines.
I believe Mike Gondwin has referred to us as that.
Yes.
We do do a lot of other stuff, but FOIA is certainly one of the more visible things we do.
Uh-huh.
Tell us something about Epic.
What kind of things do you do now?
Well, we've put on a couple conferences.
One's on cryptography, which we had in June, and another one we're holding in The Hague, in the Netherlands, in October or in September, on privacy and technology.
We also do a fair number of reports.
We've put out reports now on electronic surveillance and on Internet and privacy.
Uh, one book on cryptography and privacy.
Uh, generally, we do a lot of hell raising.
Uh.
Uh, when we find out something like this national ID card, getting it out to the most public forums possible.
So, you found out about this yesterday.
What has happened in the 24 hours since?
Uh, well, the, uh, the immigration reform people came back with a press release saying, no, they hadn't done it.
Uh, and I've probably talked to half a dozen reporters on this, uh, sent it across the net to a few zillion people.
Uh, so there's a lot of talk going on at the moment, at least.
Uh-huh.
Uh, and what do you see in the future?
Lots of petitions and, uh, organizing against this kind of thing, assuming that they don't backtrack completely?
Well, the commission's supposed to release their final report on September 30th.
Uh, electronic privacy information center, and, um, I understand Dave will be coming to the H.O.P. conference in August.
And, uh, we'll be talking about these issues and many, many more things, uh, hopefully, uh, concerning privacy and, and the threat thereof from various governments and administrations and things like that.
And if you have questions, well, you can ask questions right now, actually, by calling us at 212-279-3400, and, um, to, um, give details on the H.O.P. conference, too, August 13th and 14th at the Hotel Pennsylvania, New York City.
Um, basically, hackers on planet Earth, the probably biggest hacker gathering in this country.
That's what it seems like at the moment.
And, uh, we'll have people from all different, uh, walks of life, all different nations, and we'll be demonstrating all sorts of neat technical toys and having stimulating debates, various things like that.
So, um, if you want more information on that, give a call to 516-751-2600.
And, please, uh, be a part of that because I think it's going to be probably one of the most interesting things to happen, uh, this year.
Plus, don't forget the very exciting round of Spot the Secret Service agent.
That's right.
And there are going to be a lot of, uh, a lot of feds in the crowd, I think, uh, of all sorts.
But it'll be, uh, it'll be fun.
It'll be interesting to, uh, to see who they are and what they have to say.
Uh, we intend to have, uh, some law enforcement people on a panel to discuss, uh, exactly where it is they're coming from.
And to give hackers and other people, uh, the opportunity to, uh, to talk to them, to say what their concerns are, to say how, uh, they feel they're doing either a good or a bad job or both.
And, again, I should point out that this is not limited to hackers.
This is something that we're doing for everybody.
Uh, we want people that, um, that have technical expertise.
We also want people who have no technical expertise but just an interest in either, uh, freedom on the electronic, uh, age or, um, or how computers work or how phones work or things like that.
If you have curiosity, if you have an interest, if you're listening to this program, probably, uh, you would find it interesting to, uh, to go to.
And unlike these other conferences that, uh, that charge, like, 500 bucks, uh, we, we've been to a fair number of those, haven't we, Dave?
Uh, just a couple of them.
Yeah.
I don't understand that.
I really don't, how they can charge so much money for these conferences.
I mean, yeah, they, they wine and dine you and everybody dresses up in suits, but I guess it's like the corporate mentality there.
Uh, but we're trying not to have that for this conference.
We're only charging 20 bucks if people register in advance, 25 if they register at the door, which is as cheap as we can possibly make it, uh, without taking a complete bath.
Um, if you want to pre-register, and we suggest you do, because that way we'll have a better idea of, uh, how many people will show up, uh, write to HOPE Conference, 2600 HOPE Conference, that is.
Uh, Post Office Box 848, Middle Island, New York, 11953.
And if there's anything you want to contribute to this, whether it be, um, interesting, um, seminars, talks, um, people that you think would be, uh, uh, particularly interesting to, uh, to people like us, uh, please call us or write to us and, um, and suggest that.
But there is still time, there's not a lot of time, there's one month before this thing happens, um, but if you're interested in participating, please let us know.
And also, um, if you're interested in, in participating technically, that is, setting up the net, because we'll have a huge Ethernet running as well as, um, as connections to the Internet.
Uh, please, um, contact us before next week.
We'll be having a meeting, a technical meeting, for, uh, anybody interested in helping out on a technical level, uh, loaning equipment, uh, what have you.
And that meeting will be taking place next week here in New York.
So, um, if you're interested at all in that, please contact us.
Again, the number, 516-751-2600, or you can write to us at the 2600 HOPE Conference, P.O. Box 848, Middle Island, New York, 11953.
Okay.
So, unless you're Kevin Mitnick, in which case, you better not show up.
Well, I, I know a lot of people will be registering as Kevin Mitnick, uh, similar to, uh, the, um, the Computers, Freedom, and Privacy Conference of Chicago.
Um, but that notwithstanding, I doubt Kevin will actually be there, but he'll be there in spirit, and we may have a message from him to everybody.
Who knows? We'll see what happens.
Um, okay.
We're going to take some phone calls.
212-279-3400.
Also, we have, uh, our Internet set up, too.
If you want to participate in, on the Internet, and you can't get through on the phone lines, you can call up our special Internet link through escape.com,
which is reachable at 212-888-8212.
It's a palindrome.
And, um, give us a call, and, um, log in as WBAI, and then connect, and enter a nickname.
No password required, and I think you'll, you'll find it very self-explanatory.
Okay.
That's, uh, that's pretty much everything we have to tell you.
Let's take some phone calls.
212-279-3400.
Good evening.
You're on the radio.
Hello, uh, I have a question about, uh, hope.
Uh, when we want to, uh, ask about hope?
Unfortunately, I recognize that person, and I...
I don't know who that was, but...
Go ahead.
Um, yeah, I...
Do you guys, uh, see an agenda?
See, to me, um, by focusing purely, and I understand your show's about communication, because I listen to it all the time,
but it seems like everybody's focusing on their own little piece of the pie, trying to protect it.
If I look at the big agenda here, okay, to me it seems like every amendment of the Constitution is being shaved down and whittled away in the name of one world government.
Now, if you were running the show, all right, the first thing you would do is get rid of the Second Amendment, the reason being that the ultimate tool of, um, of the citizens to, uh, take care of the government is first taken away.
So it seems to me that, uh, you know, along with the clipper chip, uh, they're going to try some...
I, I believe, basically, that my children, my son is, um, is under age 10.
I don't want to get more specific than that, but it seems to me that our children are not going to experience the same type of, uh, exuberant freedoms that we have.
I mean, it's just getting to the point where I'm sure that they'll produce vehicles that someone will come along and say, you know, we really shouldn't have cars that can go over 65 miles an hour because there's no road where you can go faster than that legally.
And, uh, we'll soon have to register everything we own, and I really, I really believe this.
I think that, that the issue of safety and that everything, I mean, if you ask these law enforcement people, they'll tell you a life could be saved.
Honestly, I don't give a you-know-what about a life being saved, okay?
I mean, to me, we have certain rights in this country, one of which is the right, right to privacy, to communicate with each other.
Another is the right to bear arms, and it has nothing to do with shooting deer.
It has to do with making sure that when the government goes completely out of hand and Oliver North takes over and FEMA comes knocking on your door, that you don't go quietly.
And I, I think, I mean, I understand your show's about communication, but, um, it seems to me that you guys aren't communicating with other people out there like the Libertarians and the National Rifle Association and the Center for Constitutional Rights and forming some kind of group.
Because it seems to me, with the exception of the issue of abortion, every other issue that I hear about in the alternative media, and even sometimes in the mainstream media, they're all interlinked.
And everybody's concerned about their little, tiny bit.
And I really think you guys, since you are specialists in electronic communication, should do something to bring together these disparate interests, because, you know, we're all going to fall under the same axe.
So, um, that was, that was a fun speech.
I'm going to hang up and listen to what your guest has to say about that.
Okay, Dave, what do you have to say about that?
Um, well, unfortunately, we, all the groups you've mentioned, we don't always have, uh, uh, equal views on things.
Uh, for instance, uh, the NRA is one of their alternatives to, uh, to banning assault weapons, I believe.
They were pushing some sort of ID card, uh, which, uh, was mentioned in a couple newspapers, and I thought was just a fundamentally bad idea.
Uh, but, um, I mean, I agree, we, we do work with, uh, libertarians, and the, uh, as a result of this, uh, national ID card, and the last day, I've, uh, I've called everybody from, um, from Jim Hightower to Rush Limbaugh, trying to get, uh, you know, and everybody in between trying to get various people.
And Rush has, uh, spoken out against the Clipper chip, too.
Right, and, uh, so did G. Gordon Liddy, too, actually.
Well, how about that?
We start petition drive.
So we are, uh, we are, uh, we are aligning ourselves with some pretty strange people.
We, uh, we definitely need to work on this more.
Uh, when the Australia card campaign happened in, in 87, uh, they got everybody from Peter Garrett, the lead singer of Midnight Oil, to the, uh, Chief Justice of the, uh, the equivalent Supreme Court over there, together, um, working on this thing.
So we definitely need to work on that much more over here.
Okay, let's go to another phone call.
Good evening, you're on the radio.
Yes, um, good evening, Emmanuel.
I'm shutting down my radio.
Okay, please do.
Sorry about that.
I, I didn't know what would happen, so I didn't know what to anticipate.
Um, now you know.
Yes, we've been listening to it.
Yeah.
Yeah, I, uh, for most of the time, since, uh, half past 21 hours.
And yours in its entirety, and this is the first time, and we're, uh, we're unilaterally, uh, opposed to your opposition.
So, you're in support of the ID cards?
Uh, no, we're not in favor of any identification papers at all.
Well, if you're opposed to our opposition, then you would be...
No, no, no.
It's just that, we think perhaps your position required some supplementary clarification, because, uh, I think, I can't remember which aspect, but some aspect was subject to misconstruence.
All right, tell us about the misconstruence, and we'll try to...
I can't remember.
Um, misconstruence.
It didn't, you know, depress me or hold me back, or, or, uh, delay our cause.
Um, I mean, in this house, but some other listener might feel differently, I don't know.
Okay, sir, let's rewind a little bit and go back to the beginning.
Now, what's on your mind about this issue?
Uh, I forgot what the issue is about.
Okay, I thought so.
Thank you very much for calling.
Good evening, you're on the radio.
Hello?
Yes, go ahead.
Yes, uh, the ID card that you're talking about, uh, uh, Gary Null broke that story about two months ago, and, uh, on his, uh, Hidden Agenda series, and it was being called the Tesaria card.
And one of the additional main objectives of the thing is to, uh, aid in banking.
Uh, people will not be able to, uh, hide cash any longer.
Uh, every dollar will be, have to be accounted for, and, uh, in addition to everything else you said tonight.
So that's one aspect that, uh, uh, is going to be kind of...
You're seeing this as part of the cashless society.
Yeah.
What do you think of that, Dave?
Uh, actually, this is different from the, uh, Tesara card.
The, uh, that card is related to the clipper chip proposal.
It uses a similar chip.
I'm sorry.
Uh, this is more of a dumb card is what they're talking about.
It's certainly, uh, I'm sure they would certainly love to go with a, uh, more high-tech, uh, card, uh, like that.
That's a, that's a smart card.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, this is definitely an ATM-style.
I see.
A dumb card, because, uh, these people over in immigration reform aren't smart enough to figure out, you know, more advanced technologies.
Well, I'm sure, I'm sure they're dialing us now to voice their opinion, so let's clear up the line for them.
Good.
Thanks for calling, and, um, yeah, we'd like to hear from somebody from immigration to hear what, uh, what their justification for this is.
Um, it's, um, speaking, speaking of money, though, I heard something interesting on the news today.
They're redesigning the dollar bills, apparently to, uh, to prevent counterfeiting or something.
They're moving, they're actually going to move the, uh, the pictures over, I think, to the left a little bit.
There's been a big political battle over that for a number of years.
Uh, for some strange reason, people seem to have some sort of intuitive opposition to just basically playing around with a greenback to, to make it harder to Xerox.
Uh-huh.
Yeah, yeah, I, I think it's still going to stay green, too, which is the dullest color, um, but they are moving the presidents over.
Don't know if there's significance to the fact that they're moving them to the left instead of to the right, I don't know.
It's the only sop we're getting this year.
Yeah.
Well, I'm sure there'll be more about that in tomorrow's papers.
Good evening, you're on the radio.
Hello?
Yes, go ahead.
Speak up, please.
Um, I'd just like to say, um, a comment for the, uh, first caller.
Anarchy rules.
Okay.
Thank you very much for that opinion.
Good evening, you're on the radio.
I go 675-12749.
Huh?
Good evening, you're on the radio.
Yes, hello.
Yes, sir.
How you doing?
Hi.
Emmanuel.
Hi.
I wanted to tell you first that you have a great radio show, and I enjoy your publication,
and I'll see your radio show.
Thank you.
You have to forgive me, because I'm really nervous.
Oh, that's okay.
Anyway, um...
You're on a very interesting-sounding phone, I have to tell you that.
I'm sorry.
It brings out the bass in you.
Yeah, actually, it's one of those new cordless 900...
Really?
So this is a cordless 900 megahertz phone?
It doesn't sound like a cordless phone to me.
No.
Very, very nice.
I'm impressed.
Okay.
Um, first, I wanted to say you were bringing up the topic of money.
I was wondering if you ever heard of, um, the, um, it's a type of currency that people
are using on the internet, and it was, it's, um, a company distributes, um, like, serial
numbers, and you call up a 1-900 number, and they give you $10 in credit in a serial number.
And then you could, um, email to them, and they can break it down.
Um, you, you can get, like, $1 denominations.
And I was wondering if you heard anything about that.
Um, explain more, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that.
You call a 1-900 number up.
Yeah.
And then, you get charged $10 to your phone bill.
Right.
You, um, you also get a serial number.
And, um, you can use a serial number, some BBSs, and also it's been used on the internet.
What do you mean by a serial number?
It's, uh, it's a 12-digit serial number.
Is it really a serial number, or is it a password of some sort?
It's, it's, it's like a serial number of a, of like, um.
Of a single currency transaction.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, you can then use this to say, to give it to someone else.
You give, actually, you can send it back to the company using email, and, um, they can
break it down, say you wanted, like, four, five, um, you had $20 worth, and you wanted
five, five, five, zero numbers, which are the equivalent of $5.
Uh-huh.
And, um, what they do, then you could use, like, say, some BBSs say, okay, you can pay
for it.
It's, I know, I know BBSs have, like, you can call the 1-800 number up.
Are you ever able to turn these, these numbers into cash?
Yeah, um, if you, you have to get a merchant account from the company that does this.
Oh, boy.
Bank.
Yeah.
And, um, they, you can distribute the serial number multiple times.
What happens is, um, every time you give the serial number to someone else, they email
to the company that, um, give them a new serial number, and they make the other, um, serial
number a void.
Well, what happens if email happens to be down for a moment?
Um, I don't know.
They just, they just, I don't, I don't know how they work it, but you, you email them.
Well, it, it sounds like a very awkward way of doing transactions.
Uh-huh.
Well, this, actually, I think it was written in this week's, uh, this month's Board Watch
magazine.
Is that where you read it?
No, I didn't.
No, actually, I've been using it.
Oh, okay.
I, I believe there's an article about it in this month's Board Watch.
That was, um, I was, um, just, I was just concerned as to the safety of it.
And, um, safety in what, in what regard?
Like, say, um, say I have, like, some, like, $20 worth of these serial numbers, and, um,
some, this company goes bankrupt or whatever, and they, I, it doesn't sound very safe to
me.
Yeah, I was wondering if you knew anything more of it, or if you could, if you could
sort of encourage me, or...
Well, I'm not familiar with this at all.
Dave, uh, perhaps you could, you could...
Um, all I know is what I read in whatever magazine I was that I was reading in.
I didn't quite get the security part of it.
Um, I guess, basically, it's sort of like one of those little toll cards you buy, um,
where they, you know, $10 on it, and you dial the 800 number, and it, and it runs off that
way.
Yeah, a phone card, a prepaid phone card.
Yeah.
Which I'm not too happy with those, either.
Only because you, you have to trust them, you know, you have to assume there's $10 on them
and not $9, and if there is $9, there's nothing you can do about it.
Right.
So, all right, thanks for the call.
We're going to move on to, uh, to something else.
Good evening.
You're on the radio.
Yeah, I had a, uh, comment to make about the, um, MetroCard.
Okay.
You were saying before that there's a rumor that if you slip the card through the, the
reader on, on one turnstile, and then it doesn't read it correctly, if you then go
over to a second turnstile and slip the card through, that you'll be charged twice.
That's the rumor, yes.
Well, I don't see how that would work.
If the first reader didn't read the card, how would it know which account to debit?
Good question.
Uh, I don't know.
Uh, it's just, we're testing out everything that people tell us.
Uh, people tell us if you, if you run through screaming like a maniac, you get a free ride.
Uh, you know, we're going to test that too.
We'll test all the theories that we get and, um, you know, we'll let you know.
Well, you know, I'm also on a, uh, um, one of those 900 megahertz cordless phones.
I don't know if it makes any difference, but.
You sound totally different.
Oh, really?
Well, I'm also sitting about a foot and a half away from the base unit, so maybe that's why.
That could have something to do with it too.
It could just be your voice.
Could be.
You know, uh, our, our latest theory though on the MetroCards is that underneath that, um,
that thing that looks like a magnetic strip is actually a barcode.
Now think about this.
If there was a barcode there, uh, it would never need to be written to, it just need
to be read.
Right.
And every time you passed it through a particular, uh, turnstile, the turnstile was simply ask
the machine, which is there in the station, how much is on this account.
And it would either let you through or not let you through.
And if it did let you through or tell that machine to deduct that amount, the next time
it talks to the mainframe, which would probably be every five or 10 minutes, not enough time
for you to get to another station and, uh, use it again.
So you're saying it's either a barcode that we read optically or it's not a magnetic stripe
because it doesn't seem to be erasable.
Exactly.
Now what we need, and we really do need this, we need somebody who can read whatever is
underneath that strip and hopefully figure out a way to, to duplicate it somehow so we
can see if this theory is actually true.
Have you ever tried scraping it off?
Uh, yes.
And the results were not too good.
We wound up destroying the entire card.
Oh, I see.
Yeah.
But that's, that's the sacrifice we have to make sometimes.
So, but I'm sure there are people out there, um, that, uh, that know what they're doing
and hopefully are on the right side of the law too.
Well, I, I wonder maybe if it's, if it's magneto-optical, although I tend to doubt it.
Uh-huh.
Like, you know, like magneto-optical drives.
We do have a Freedom of Information Act request in, uh, with, I guess, I'm proud to say that
in front of Dave, uh, we have a FOIA request in, uh, to the MTA to get us information on
this system.
Good luck.
Hopefully we'll get something.
Lots of luck.
Yeah, and we have, uh, we have some other information that we've gotten, uh, through
other, other sources as well.
Well, I'm looking forward to hearing it.
Okay.
Okay.
Thanks for calling.
Sure.
Bye.
And again, at the HOPE Conference, we will either be, uh, completely, um, uh, figuring out
a way around the system or we will admit defeat.
We have one month.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Hi, Emmanuel.
How are you?
Okay.
How are you?
Okay.
First, I've got to say your show's great.
Thank you.
Um, and, um, uh, a couple questions like this, um, ID card.
Um, I'm wondering if, how much information would it have on it?
I know you had explained a little bit about it before.
Well, Dave, what do you got on that card?
Um, on the card itself, they're going to have a mag stripe, so that's a pretty minimal amount
of information.
A mag stripe with quote-unquote vital information.
Now, what does that mean?
Uh, my guess is it would probably just duplicate what's actually on the card itself.
Uh, would your address be on there?
Uh, more likely, uh, depending, I don't know how much exactly these stripes would hold.
It would have, like, your date of birth and, uh, your social security number and things
like that?
Probably it would have at least your social security number, so it could, uh, then query
the database from that.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
Um, I know the Maryland driver's license mag stripes, uh, supposedly have a whole digitized
photograph on it, but that's, seems a bit, uh, a bit much for, uh, for one of those little
things.
It's interesting.
I know a lot of people, uh, in California, and I think in the D.C. area, um, that have
these kinds of driver's licenses set about, uh, erasing them, you know, demagnetizing them
like we try to do with the MetroCard, and, uh, just to mess up the computers if they ever
were scanned somehow.
Uh, I don't know how effective that is.
And for me, I'm planning to do it as soon as I get mine.
Uh-huh.
Maybe, maybe there's a, a nice place people can go to demagnetize things.
I don't know if they're a commercial venture.
Uh, the Fergon Laboratories in Chicago are very good for that.
Uh-huh.
Okay.
Uh, Emanuel.
Yes.
A few, uh, a few things I just wanted to add, a little bit off the subject.
Uh, try to make them brief.
Uh, the 800 service through a couple companies like Cable and Wireless and Wiltel, uh, that you
had talked about on your show.
Um, if you get a personal 800 number on your main line, I know a little bit about this.
I've been doing testing.
And, uh, it, as you know, it, uh, gives you area code number on the caller ID.
I've done, uh, a little bit of testing, and I've got, uh, about 47 states on my caller ID.
47?
Well, you only have three to go.
Uh, the only ones I've...
It's an in all 50 states, yes.
Yeah, um, I got 47.
It's a little bit off the subject.
I just wanted to, uh, to let you know.
And, uh, once in a while, if a state has a, uh, service called Name Delivery, or Caller
ID Deluxe, uh, New Jersey Bell, where I am here in New Jersey, uh, has the software set
up.
So, if another state is transmitting that information, and you have a Caller ID unit that has name
delivery capabilities, uh, the name will also appear, last name, first name.
Have you tested this?
Uh, yes, I have.
I've done a lot of testing with it.
I let, uh, 9X know, uh, Bell Atlantic, I've been receiving calls.
Actually, I got one call from 9X, 2-1-2.
But any time I receive a call from 9X, either not sending you the information, or it's blocked.
I had about, say, 50 to 60 people try to call me from 9X, and I got an out of area through
the A&I, uh, you know, which is now working with the Caller ID, the Signature System 7 feature.
Right.
And, uh, it's just, I'm getting an out of area every time.
I noticed the same thing with 9X.
Uh, that didn't used to happen.
Uh, 9X was sending the information.
In fact, that's how we found out about it at the beginning.
Uh, as far as the name delivery, I don't understand why that information would be sent to an 800
number to start with.
Well, actually, what happened was I had called the company where I received a call, Mississippi,
the 601 area code.
Mm-hmm.
And they have name delivery, and they sent it out, and what happens is the long-distance carrier
will tell who I have.
I had called them up and spoken to a person named Guy.
He's a, uh, specialist, and he had told me that, uh, what's happening is they have a
loophole, and they're like, uh, if it's all signaling, if it, it's all SS7, you'll receive
the information.
What's happening is if the local carrier sends it to, you know, for example, will tell, they
just reroute it back to my Caller ID unit, and I'll receive last name, first name, and
area code and all.
Uh, the Bell Atlantic representatives that I spoke to were a little bit shocked, but
yeah, 47 states.
I mean, I've, I've, I was in Las Vegas.
I actually spoke to you from Las Vegas one time using the 105.5.
Uh-huh.
You remember talking to me?
Yes, I think I do, actually.
And I called you from Vegas.
Right, right.
And, uh...
Your number showed up on the Caller ID box.
It was, it was quite a thrill.
And, uh, yeah, I, I also tried the 105.5.5 calling a few out of state, uh, Florida and different
places, and they received my 908 area code, and a lot of people don't know about this,
that, you know, you know, a little bit on the subject, like, uh, privacy, their numbers
being thrown around, and the star six seven, the per call restrict, has no effect on it
whatsoever.
Um, with an 800 number through will tell that I have, um, operators can't dial it.
Also, it doesn't have to be through an 800 number if you just dial 105.5.
That transmits, yeah.
Through will tell.
I tried that using, uh, a star six seven first, and the information was still, uh, gone,
it still was sent.
So, I mean, with this 800 number, I mean, it depends on the state.
If the state has name delivery, you'll receive name, if all the, if all the equipment's set
up properly.
Well, that seems to be a violation of, of, uh, the new FCC ruling on that, which doesn't
satisfy a lot of people as far as privacy goes.
Actually, there was a, a law passed, uh, I don't have any documents.
I sent a letter to the FCC and tried to place a call, and you can never get through there.
And, uh, they had, um, actually, when I spoke to somebody from Bell Atlantic, they told
me that the, uh, name delivery and the out-of-state calling by April of 95, I don't know if this
is true or not.
This is just a rumor that all long-distance carriers must provide the information to the
local carriers.
For example, if you place a call to me to New Jersey, I'll receive your last name, first
name, and area code number if it's not published or not.
Um, now, I don't know if Star 6-7 is going to have an effect on that or not, but, uh,
I'm doing testing right now.
I have the caller ID service.
Um, right at this present time, I don't have the 800 service.
I got rid of it for a little while.
Uh-huh.
I've been doing a lot of testing, and, uh, PBX, Centrex, Merlin, cellular telephones,
different things were appearing on caller ID.
Um, I had a phone company call me back.
They were shocked that their extension number was, uh, appearing on my caller ID.
You were able to get, uh, cellular phone numbers?
Yeah, not the cell site or the tower or anything.
I was shocked myself.
I received a cellular car phone number that was dialed my 800 number, and I guess they
automatically get it through A&I and, uh, Annie, and, uh, the information was passed.
Yeah, I received, uh, the information.
Well, that's definitely, that's definitely a new development.
Listen, we're out of time.
Thanks for the information, though, and, and keep experimenting.
Let us know what you come up with.
Okay.
All right.
Bye-bye.
Interesting call there.
We've been speaking with, uh, Dave Benesar from the newly formed, uh, EPIC Electronic Privacy
Information Center in Washington, D.C.
And, uh, Dave, uh, perhaps you can tell us how people can get a hold of you and, uh, and
what the group stands for and all that kind of thing.
Uh, well, let's see.
Through email, you can reach me at, uh, just about any name at epic, E-P-I-C dot org.
Um, or, uh, if you're on MindVox, uh, my user ID is TC.
I know for all you Echo people, you'll hang, you'll stop listening at this point.
Uh, or, uh, good old plain phones, uh, 202-544-9240.
Our, uh, main charter is to look into issues of, uh, privacy and, uh, basically any kind
of new technologies, um, including the, uh, misnamed, uh, National Information Super Hype
Way and, uh, just about anything else that's coming out.
Okay.
Well, I want to thank you for, uh, for joining us and for enlightening us, uh, throughout
the past hour.
Wish you much luck and hopefully we'll see you in August.
Okay.
This has been Off the Hook and this is Emmanuel Goldstein.
He'll be back again next week, I think.
I don't know.
I heard rumors.
But, uh, Wednesday nights at 10 o'clock for the most part.
Stay tuned for a rebroadcast of the evening news right here on WBAI New York.
See ya!
Bye-bye.
Welcome to WBAI New York Home.
Bye-bye.
Thank you very much.
Bye-bye.
Good evening.
In the news tonight, the Workplace Fairness Act meets death by Republican filibuster.
No big surprises in day two of Senate confirmation hearings for Supreme Court nominee Stephen
Breyer.
And in New York, a grand jury goes sniffing around Lower East Side progressives looking
for election fraud.
For these and other stories, I'm David Sears in New York with Verna Avery Brown in Washington,
and this is the news for Wednesday, July 13, 1994.
First to Washington for these stories topping the news.
United Nations human rights observers are leaving Haiti today, complying with the expulsion
order from Haiti's military rulers.
From Port-au-Prince, Kathy Claridge files this report.
The international civilian mission is leaving Haiti today after a 48-hour warning by the
military-backed government, who accused them of disrupting state security.
All 100 members are flying to Guadeloupe on Air France, the only remaining air carrier servicing
Haiti since the United States canceled all direct flights between the two countries June 25th.
Today, however, Air France announced that they, too, will suspend all flights August 1st, joining
international sanctions aimed at ousting key military officers.
But Army Commander General Raul Sedra says he will stay in power until his term expires January 31st.
Meanwhile, local residents discovered the bodies of 12 young men yesterday, 19 miles west of the capitol.
national aisle.