...of the islands of Cuba and Hispaniola.
That's Cuba and Hispaniola, a special report.
Monday, September 19th from 7 a.m. to midnight,
only on WBAI 99.5 FM.
Listen, I wonder how many of you may
are willing to wait till midnight.
I wonder how many of you tonight feel
that the midnight hour is the right time to wait.
Let me hear you say yeah.
On Friday, September 16th,
Wilson Pickett, the Midnight Mover,
meets the Midnight Ravers in a five-hour marathon special.
During the past three decades,
Wilson Pickett has established himself
as one of the country's leading singers and hit makers.
His sensational string of bestsellers,
including Mustang Sally,
Mustang Sally,
Yes, you better slow your Mustang down.
I'm in love.
I'm in love.
Yes, I am.
Love, love, love.
Has made him one of the hottest box office attractions
on the international concert circuit.
Join Wilson Pickett live with the Midnight Ravers
in a marathon special Friday, September 16th
from 10 p.m. to 3 a.m.
over listener-sponsored WBAI Radio 99.5 FM in New York.
The Midnight Ravers
The Midnight Ravers, where every show is a special.
How much more long, how long
How long, how much more long, how long
Hi, this is Marjorie Moore, host of Wednesday Afternoon Talkback.
And on Wednesday, September 21st,
tune in early at 2 p.m.
for a membership drive special,
Defending Our Name.
African American women celebrate their history,
struggles, and victory.
We will have an all-star lineup of guests.
The lists include Lonnie Guineer, Angela Davis, and John Etta Cole.
That's from 2 p.m. till 4.30 p.m.
on Wednesday, September 23rd.
But stay tuned for my usual talkback slot from 4.30 till 6.
My special guest will be Joy Behar,
herself a former talk show host and comedian
familiar to these airwaves.
Joy and I will discuss the state of talk radio in New York,
women's issues, politics,
and we'll have lots of laughs.
That's on Wednesday, September 21st,
from 2 p.m. to 6 p.m.
here on listener-sponsored, commercial-free,
and always stimulating WBAI.
On September 23rd through the 25th,
the 10th Annual National Conference
of the International Black Women's Congress
will be held in Washington, D.C.
Save Our Lives, Establishing a Research Agenda
on Black Women's Health,
is the title of the conference.
Among the many speakers are
Alvinia Fulton, Ph.D.,
Leading Authority on Holistic Healing,
Arika Logan-Cusaldi,
President of the International Women's Physicians Association,
Queen Afua,
Director and Founder of Heal Thyself Center,
Cynthia Crawford Green,
M.D., Cardiologist,
and many, many more.
There will be workshops,
Afro-sized classes,
cultural activities,
and fashion shows.
For registration fees and other information,
call 201-926-0570.
That's 201-926-0570.
And this is radio station WBAI,
where it's five minutes after 10 o'clock,
which means we're five minutes late
for our usual Wednesday production of Off the Hook,
but it's okay because this week
we'll be on until midnight,
and you just know what we're going to be asking you for.
The telephone keeps ringing,
so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself off shaving,
now I can't make a call.
It couldn't get much worse,
but if they could, they would.
Bumbly-Bumb, but the best, expect the worst.
I hope that time is good,
Bumbly-Bumb!
Bumbly-Bumb, but the best.
And a very good evening to one and all.
This is Emanuel Goldstein with Off the Hook,
the program that talks about all kinds of fun stuff going on
in the world of the Internet,
of the growing and stumbling telephone systems
and all kinds of computer fun that you just would not believe.
And, of course, in addition to that,
we talk about freedom of speech.
We talk about various issues of the day that affect all of us,
whether we have a computer or we don't have a computer,
issues that affect virtually every person on the planet in some form.
And tonight is no exception.
We'll be having a special guest.
And hopefully we'll be hearing from Fiber Optic
also sometime later on in this hour.
And, of course, we'll be asking for your help
to keep programs like this on the radio
because it's our fall pledge drive.
That's right.
It's amazing how fast time goes by,
but we're into fall already,
and it's time for us to ask for support
so that we can keep going with programs like this
and with a radio station like WBAI,
where we've all learned so much about technology
through this particular radio program,
through shows like The Personal Computer Show
and Explorations and all the other fine things
that we have here on WBAI.
But we'll be getting more into that in just a little bit.
We're going to try and set things up
so that we'll have some interesting things to talk about.
And we have a special premium,
which we'll be getting into in just a couple of minutes too.
So stay with us.
We'll be getting into in just a couple of minutes too.
We'll be getting into in just a couple of minutes too.
You'll be getting into in just a couple of minutes too.
Safe and sound
So safe and sound
Move your body back and forth
And round and round
And all my friends
Are killing me
And all my friends
Are killing me
And all my friends
Yeah, and we're back, and you're fading away, right?
Yeah, okay. We're here tonight on a special occasion.
Well, it is a special occasion because we only ask for support three times a year.
Although maybe it seems like more than that sometimes, but three particular times in a year.
And this is the autumn, our autumn turn, and we need your help as much as we've ever done before.
But before we get into that, we have a special guest with us that we want to talk to for a bit as far as certain issues go.
We have on the phone with us from Port Townsend, Washington, Steve O'Keefe, who is the editorial director of Loompanics.
And Steve, are you with us?
Yeah, it's great to be here.
Well, thanks.
Now, Loompanics is a familiar word to many hackers and a familiar word to many people interested in reading.
And also, it will be a familiar word to people tonight who pledge because we have a special offer, but we'll get to that in a few minutes.
More recently, if you're watching the National Broadcasting Company, which is, I guess, best described as one of those commercial television networks that invades our turf.
NBC had a program called Dateline NBC, which I would imagine if they are naming their shows.
Which, by the way, you know that show is on three times a week next season?
It's incredible.
They just have nothing else to put on the air.
I've heard they're thinking of going up five times a week.
Five times?
I mean, that's incredibly cheap for them to have to put the same show on five times a week.
They don't have to come up with Miami Vice or something.
And how much Jane Pauley can one person stand in a week?
Is it all going to be Jane Pauley?
And Stone Phillips.
Wow.
You see, I mean, that's the difference.
At WBAI, nobody would ever put me on five nights a week because there's a limit.
There's a limit to how much people can take of one particular thing over and over again.
And I'm sure you're a lot more entertaining than Jane Pauley.
Well, that's not too hard to do, but enough Jane Pauley bashing.
We have more serious issues to talk about, and that's sort of what Dateline NBC was supposed to do.
They were supposed to talk about serious issues, but it kind of degenerated into a farce.
The story was about making bombs and using computers to get the information to make bombs.
Now, you know, a lot of us who listen to this radio show will say, big deal.
You can use a book to get information on how to make bombs.
But the fact that a computer was involved meant that all Internet users were bomb makers,
and those of us that weren't into child pornography are into blowing things up.
And that's pretty much the perception that the big networks like to get out for some reason,
I think because it's just a very easy thing to do.
And people from Loompanics were interviewed on this particular show
because they put out books that deal with making bombs,
as well as many other books that deal with making all kinds of things.
But I guess I can start off, Steve, by asking you the same question in a different tone, perhaps,
that they asked when they had one of your people on the airwaves there.
How do you justify your existence?
Well, we don't have to justify it.
That's what the First Amendment's about is we're free to publish whatever we want.
Words never harmed anyone.
And people are free to buy it or not buy it if they choose.
We don't force anybody to take our books, to read them,
and we certainly don't expect people to act on all the information that they find in our books.
So, you know, we're protected by the First Amendment in that,
and that's the nice thing about the First Amendment is you don't have to justify
or kiss anybody's butt in order to be able to publish or say what you want to publish or say.
Uh-huh.
Now, what kind of other titles do you publish?
Well, there's about a thousand titles listed in our catalog.
All of them are controversial and unusual books.
There's everything on weapons, shortening people's lives, extending people's lives.
We have weird science books, life extension, anarchism, books on making drugs,
books on surveillance and eavesdropping, things on alternative shelters, squatting,
beat the system kind of books, things on avoiding taxes.
You name it.
If it's somewhat unconventional and it's a how-to book,
chances are you'll find it in our catalog and a few other places.
And how long has Loompanics been around?
Since about 1975, so we're coming up on 20 years here.
That's a long time in the marginal publishing universe.
Well, over the past couple of years anyway,
we've seen a publishing explosion with zines and with all kinds of alternative reading material.
Yeah, and our business has just ballooned in the last few years.
Like Tower Books and Tower Records in New York now carry our stock.
It used to be you couldn't find it anywhere but mail order.
I mean, even some of the chains are starting to carry our titles.
We have one on psychedelic shamanism that came out this year that's in Walden books,
probably right next to the Say No to Drugs poster.
Well, do you see this as a change in the overall mood of the country?
Are people becoming more literate and more into alternative things?
Well, there's a sad side to it and a positive side.
I think people are into more weird and bizarre stuff, and part of this is fed by TV.
Dateline NBC being on three nights a week or five nights a week is an example of all that television programming,
which is becoming reality-based news shows where we find the most unusual or scary person we can find,
and we bring them up on TV and show them to people for a few minutes and then have an insta-poll to decide thumbs up or thumbs down.
People are getting away from fiction in television and away from fiction in print,
and they're more interested in nonfiction, and the stranger the better.
Uh-huh.
You also have shows such as TV Nation, actually, on the same network of NBC that kind of take the whole thing with a grain of salt.
Yeah, TV Nation is great because they don't pretend to be objective.
For example, when Dateline came to film that segment at our place,
I'm guessing they spent maybe $50,000 just to film our portion,
which was one-third of one segment on their show one night,
and they must have had 12 people there, lighting, camera, makeup, sound, correspondents, producers.
They shot, I'm guessing, seven or eight hours of footage,
and from that they had it down to, you know, two and a half minutes.
It actually appears on the air.
Well, they can make anybody look like an idiot in two and a half minutes,
or a genius, you know, if they have five hours of film.
Actually, they seem to portray us fairly on there,
although we didn't care for the stand they took on the issue of freedom of speech.
This is the thing that always galls me,
is the mainstream press is sometimes the ones crying loudest for restrictions on freedom of speech and freedom of the press.
Yeah, you have to wonder about that.
The press is coming out and saying freedom of the press is a bad thing,
or making it seem that way, making other people say that.
It is awfully bizarre.
Dateline did us a big favor with that segment,
because what they did was they linked Loompanics
with all these computer users out there who are on the Internet.
And there's some 35 million people on the Internet,
and they don't like hearing about censorship of the Internet.
And so somehow we got linked with them,
and all of a sudden we're sort of heroes on the Internet.
And Dateline NBC, who broadcast their Internet address at the end of every episode,
was deluged with email against their segment and supportive freedom of speech on the Internet.
So it actually may have resulted in them taking a step back.
Well, I know they gave out their email address,
and I know a lot of people that sent mail to that email address,
and it's funny, they all got back the same reply instantly that said,
we're getting a tremendous response, and we're very pleased with this.
We can't respond individually, but we thank you for your letter.
Now, what's interesting about that is that they tell people
they're getting a tremendous response before they get a tremendous response.
Right.
It's their form letter.
They're always getting a tremendous response.
Form letter.
You get the same kind of thing if you send an email to the White House,
which is online also, supposedly.
Right.
It's kind of fake, I guess.
But did they acknowledge all this email?
On the air at all, do you know?
To my knowledge, fortunately, I've been spared from watching Dateline
since this segment ran.
I had to watch it for months waiting for them to air it.
They taped it in March.
And I took about as much Jane Pauley as I could take,
and so I haven't watched it since.
But I have been monitoring the net,
and the reaction on the net has been unanimous and very vocal
in all the news groups that are related to computer security issues
and the Internet.
We have our own spot on the net.
We're on a system called The Well out in San Francisco,
and we have a catalog online out there.
So we heard a lot of feedback off of that, too.
And really, it surprised me how much people on the net
really do not want any sort of censorship whatsoever of the net.
And it's not just Dateline that's calling for that.
The Wall Street Journal started thumping about kitty porn on the net a while ago.
And you're going to increasingly see the establishment come down on the net
because they're going to use issues like pornography and hate mail
and bomb-making and national security to justify clamping down on the net
because they simply don't like the free flow of information
between consenting people, which is what the net's about,
and that's also what your radio network there is about.
Absolutely.
The net is really the first time we've had the opportunity
to have such freedom of speech flowing unabated
between different people throughout the world.
And, you know, there's not a government in the world that does not fear that
because that's potentially losing control.
It's potentially having your citizens speaking their minds
without anybody coming down on them, without them feeling afraid to do so.
And it can be even for a democracy.
Any government in power fears that kind of thing.
Yeah, and that's why they fear radio stations, too.
I mean, you have an established station there,
but the FCC strictly limits the...
They require a certain threshold size for a station before it can get a license,
which effectively eliminates, you know, all your mom-and-pop, you know,
radio outfits from being able to use available airspace.
Right. Yeah, I mean, I should point out that WBAI is kind of a...
We're an exception to the rule.
We're a 50,000-watt radio station in the middle of the FM dial in New York City.
You just don't get non-commercial radio stations like that in other parts of the country.
And it's kind of weird that we got one here in New York.
There's a long story behind it, but the fact is it's here,
and we want it to stay here.
What's the radio scene like out there in Washington?
It sucks.
Yeah.
I hate to say that.
That's what people say.
I mean, a lot of people think the music scene out here is truly awesome.
But really, the cultural situation out in western Washington is pretty lame
compared to some place like New York,
where you just have this thriving metropolis of people from all over the world
and all with their favorite kinds of music.
And I just...
The radio is so bad out here, it's almost not worth listening to.
So you should be lucky to have a good station there.
There's one good independent station out in Seattle,
KCMU, that plays music for thinking people.
Is that a college station?
Yep.
Okay, I figured as much.
Yeah, you'll find that most of the good stations are non-commercial stations.
And it's that whole philosophy where if you have a commercial broadcasting entity,
they're going to be that much more diluted
because they have to appeal to the broadest number of people
and they have to worry about their advertisers.
And we have neither of those worries here at WBAI.
We simply have to reach enough people out there that care about radio
and are willing to invest in it and are willing to keep us going.
And what we have, what the people at Lommpanics have been kind enough to do for us here tonight,
is donate some books.
And one book which I think pertains to our audience especially well
is the recently published Secrets of a Super Hacker,
written by The Nightmare.
And we only have a limited number of these.
So, the pledge deal is this.
For a $75 pledge, you will get this book.
How many pages is this book here?
It's about 200 plus, I'd say.
And it's got all kinds of information.
And for a $75 pledge at 212-279-3400,
you'll get a copy of this Loompanics book
and a free membership at WBAI, of course,
the program guide for a year.
And also, more importantly,
the notion that you are helping this radio station
continue with what it's trying to do.
You're helping this radio program.
And that way we'll be able to keep coming back with information like this.
212-279-3400.
We have two callers on the line.
And we have room for seven, I think, right?
So, we have...
Yeah, Secrets of a Super Hacker is an awesome book, by the way,
which is not readily available.
It's a $20 book.
And in addition to being just terrific inside,
it's got a great cover by Bart Nagel,
who is the art director at Mondo 2000,
a magazine that might be familiar to some of your listeners.
Yeah, I thought this looked familiar.
Yeah.
It does look like that.
It's really...
It's a nice package, and it's a terrific book.
So, that's Secrets of a Super Hacker with every pledge of $75.
But that's not to say you can't pledge less than that.
If you don't want to pledge $75, we will accept any amount, of course.
Every little bit helps, and that's how we get the high-up figures.
Like, for instance, today, we've raised $49,425,
and we had to start somewhere.
We had to start with somebody pledging $20, $30.
It adds up.
So, every person that calls in and pledges something adds to that total.
So, hopefully, at the end of our two hours together,
we'll have a nice sizable total,
and we'll know that people who listen to Off the Hook care about this radio station,
care about this radio show, and are willing to support it.
212-279-3400.
I'd like to read something from this book on the social engineering part,
which is something that a lot of hackers take interest in.
It's somehow shocking the first time one hears about social engineering.
At least it was shocking for me.
Hacking is thought of as an activity pursued solely, nocturnally, relentlessly,
for hour after midnight hour,
or by some dazed and nerdish character banging away at a computer keyboard
in feverish pursuit of that single golden word,
which will grant access to the technological secrets of the universe.
And you guys print some information as to what social engineering is all about.
Here's an example.
Person on the other end.
Hello, Jack Chipper, Computing Department.
You.
Hello, Jack, this is Gary Harris from the researching department.
Maybe you could help me with a problem.
Maybe? What is it?
Well, I'm the first one here, and I can't seem to get things started up.
Will you talk me through it?
Sure. You buy your computer? Yes.
Okay, turn on the red switch by the floor.
You see it there?
Yes, okay, I see it.
Okay.
It'll take a few minutes for everything to boot up.
To what?
Now, of course, by saying to what like that,
you're pretending that you're stupid,
and the person will give you more information.
Boot up.
I mean, it'll take a minute or two for the computer to set itself,
to get ready for use.
Okay, and then you say,
Okay, it stopped.
Jack says,
What do you see?
Well, just what you always see.
It worked up to here fine before,
but after this, it didn't work.
What do I do when it doesn't work here?
What do you usually type?
I don't know.
This is my first day here.
I'm just a temp.
They said someone would tell me.
Okay, press enter.
Enter.
Okay, now type temp, space bar, puppy.
Okay.
Oh.
You see?
Thank you, Jack.
I don't know what went wrong before.
You've just gotten an account and a password,
and that's what social engineering is all about.
By pretending you're someone you're not,
or by pretending you're stupid,
people are able to get all kinds of information.
And sometimes it works the other way around,
where you actually walk someone else through something,
and they give you information while you're walking them through it.
You know, you're saying,
I hear someone there has trouble logging into a computer system.
Well, you know, we can help you out.
What accounts are you using?
What password are you using?
And they cheerfully tell you this information.
It's almost funny.
In fact, it is funny.
Yeah, a lot of people,
they spend enormous amounts of money on computer security.
And then an employee leaves the password, you know,
taped up underneath their desk somewhere
or on the bottom of their keyboard,
and then that's all you need to get past all that big security package.
So for most hackers, it's really a lot easier nowadays
to just get a legitimate user to reveal their password
than it is to try to, you know, break in relentlessly.
Okay, I'm going to cut in for a second.
I think we have FiberOptic on the line.
Fiber, is that you?
Hello?
Anybody there?
I'm here.
Oh, we had a line ringing.
I'm not sure if that was him.
We'll check into that.
But, okay, hang on.
Let me see.
Anybody there?
No, I guess not.
Okay.
All right.
Never mind that.
Is FiberOptic trying to freak in from Philadelphia?
I think so.
Yeah, I think they're trying to do that.
Get his little blue box hooked up in the prison.
Well, I don't think they permit that kind of thing.
But, anyway, 212-279-3400 is the phone number to call.
And if we could have a display on the screen in there
as to how many calls we are getting
and how many people are calling in, we can update everybody.
Important thing is, I'm not sure if Fiber's going to get through tonight.
If he does, that would be great.
But the thing is, we've heard so much from him in prison recently,
and we've been able to keep in touch with the whole story
as to how he got there and everything behind that case.
The thing is, we wouldn't have been able to hear all of that
if this station weren't here,
if this radio program weren't here for us to do so.
A lot of our listeners have been able to speak directly with him,
ask questions,
have been able to find out all kinds of interesting things.
Usually, the switchboard is completely crowded with people calling in
and asking questions or giving comments.
Tonight, we're asking for some support
so that we can continue to do that in the weeks ahead.
212-279-3400.
We have no calls on the line right now.
Let's fill up that switchboard.
It's really important that we hear from you.
212-279-3400.
Remember, everybody calling in with a $75 pledge
will get a copy of Secrets of a Super Hacker
written by The Nightmare
and information on all kinds of things
from the basics, the history of hacking,
passwords and access control,
social engineering and reverse social engineering,
public access terminals and computers,
on-site hacking,
hacking at home,
dialing up computers with your modem,
bulletin board systems,
borderline hacking,
including filthy tricks,
bribery, boos and broads and bad feelings.
What to do once you're inside.
After hacking.
Hacker security.
How to keep from getting caught.
All kinds of valuable information.
212-279-3400.
Please give us a call
and keep this radio station going.
212-279-3400.
Remember, we take Visa,
we take MasterCard,
and we have all kinds of people there
waiting to take your phone call.
212-279-3400.
Maybe they don't know how incredible
some of the stuff in this book is.
Like there's...
Yeah, give us an overview.
There's like eight appendices at the end
that have lists of words,
commonly used passwords,
also words that are set on computers
at the factories.
Many people never change
the initial settings for their computers
when they're set up,
or else they type in their first name
as their password,
or that sort of thing.
All right, Steve,
I'm going to break in
because we do have fiber optic on the line.
Fiber, are you there?
Yes, I am.
Okay, great.
Now, this is truly incredible
that we're able to actually talk to you
live from prison,
and we're very happy to be able to do so.
And I wish you were here right now
because we're in one of our begathons,
as you've seen many times.
Perhaps in your voice,
maybe coming from you,
it'll mean more than coming from me.
You're locked up right now.
You're a prisoner.
You've been taken captive
by the U.S. government
because you spoke your mind.
Now, is a radio station like WBAI
worth supporting
so people can speak their minds?
Well, of course it is.
Where else would I have had a venue
in order to voice my opinions
along with you on this show?
That's right.
That's right.
And it's a way of keeping in touch
not only with this particular case,
but with all the cases
that are going to be coming up
in the future,
all the new technological breakthroughs.
And, you know,
use your imagination.
There's no limit.
Yeah, there's a lot of people
the state doesn't ever want you
to hear about.
Oh, Fiber, I should introduce you.
Steve O'Keefe from Loompanics
is on the other line.
Oh, how are you?
Hi, I'm fine.
How are you?
Shaking virtual hands there.
I've seen better days,
but it won't be long now.
Yeah, we're down to...
Down to nine weeks.
Nine weeks.
Boy, you know,
the time has gone
really, really slowly.
Yeah.
I'm painfully slowly.
Yeah.
Well, let's give out your address
so that if people want
to get a hold of you,
they can write to you anyway.
Okay.
I'm dropping a money order
in the mail right now, actually.
Wonderful.
Yeah, so hopefully
I'll help with your phone expenses.
How's the phone account holding up?
It's doing okay right now.
Okay, good.
Why don't you give your address out?
It's my name,
which is Mark with a K,
M-A-R-K,
and the last name is Ebene,
A-B-E-N-E,
and my inmate number is
3-2-1-0-9-0-5-4,
and that's F-P-C,
as in Federal Prison Camp,
School Kill,
S-C-H-U-Y-L-K-I-L-L,
and that's Unit 1.
That's the building that I'm in,
and it's P.O. Box 670,
Minersville,
as in M-I-N-E-R,
Pennsylvania,
and the zip is
1-7-9-5-4-0-6-7-0.
That's a whole lot of numbers there.
Yeah.
But you'll reach a person in the end,
and you know,
the letters that people have sent,
the listeners of this radio program
have sent to Mark
have really made a difference.
Just, I mean,
hearing human contact,
that means so much to you,
doesn't it?
It really cheered me up
a hell of a lot
to get a lot of the letters
that I did.
So if there's anything
you want to send,
newspaper clippings,
just your thoughts on issues,
please send them to Mark,
because that's the most important thing,
is just staying in touch.
I mean, I guess a lot of people in prison,
they kind of lose touch
with what's going on out there.
There must be people out there
that don't get visitors,
that don't get letters.
Yeah, that's definitely true.
Just a minor thing
that I want to let people know,
because it's happened in the past,
is that people have included envelopes
with stamps on them,
and now that they don't let them through,
they return them.
But just so people don't worry,
they're not getting me
into any kind of trouble
or anything like that,
because some people get concerned.
Okay.
But they won't let
any of that stuff through.
Anything that we can buy
and pay for,
they'll get money from,
they won't let it come
from the outside.
Well, they let you get books
in there?
Oh, yeah.
Books,
provided that they're soft cover.
If they're hard cover,
they have to come
from the publisher directly.
Hey, you know,
you guys are publishers,
aren't you?
That's right.
Wow.
Well, I have a feeling,
Mark, you might be getting,
you know,
you've got to be careful,
though,
some of the books
that you guys put out.
I don't know if you want
to be sending those to prison.
Well, it is true
that the rules in general
don't apply to me.
I have apparently
specific rules
that only apply to myself.
And they're not privileges,
are they?
No,
and various types of mail
that you would expect
that I get,
I don't.
My mail gets censored
specifically,
and anything
that they find
objectionable
in their own opinion
is rejected.
And absolutely
no explanation
is necessary.
They just come out
with some umbrella clause
that any material
that they find
objectionable,
all they say
is that it constitutes
a threat
to the good order
and discipline
of the institution.
Yeah,
we're familiar
with that.
A lot of our books
are banned from prisons
under that same terminology.
Well,
that's something,
that's what's happening
to someone
that you heard here
less than a year ago
on this particular radio show
in this particular studio,
and of course
in a couple of months
you'll hear him again
right here.
But for now
he's going through hell,
but fortunately
we can stay in touch
with him
through the phone.
This is really
a miracle
we're able to do this.
And by writing
and for the privileged few
we can visit,
but there are very few people
that are allowed
to do that,
unfortunately.
Do they have any computers
there in the prison?
No.
No, not at all.
In fact,
I think it's hilarious
when people actually ask me
if I'm able to use a computer.
Well, they have computers,
but you can't use them.
Oh, yeah,
but I mean,
when was the last time
I saw a computer?
Since I've been here
I might have seen one
two or three times.
You know,
they have them
in the offices.
You know,
they've all changed now,
Mark.
Like, computers speak now.
You don't use keyboards anymore.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
No, you say computer
just like on Star Trek
and they respond to you
and it's amazing.
I've really missed so much.
Yeah,
they've changed the shape
of Coke bottles.
Everything has changed.
You won't recognize this place.
It's incredibly different.
Next you'll be telling me
we're traveling around
on conveyor belts
or something.
Well,
no,
they'll never try that.
Moving sidewalks,
that'd be great.
Well,
folks,
we have $150,
but that's not really
very good.
And, you know,
what better way
to show everybody
that we care,
that we're going to be there
for them in the future
than to call up
and pledge whatever you can.
You don't have to get the book
if that's too much for you,
but it's a great book.
It really is.
I've got a copy
and it's entertaining reading.
You can read this
for many hours.
212-279-3400.
Please,
let's light up those phones
and show Fiber Optic
and the folks at Loon Panics
that people in New York
care about freedom of speech.
They care about freedom in general.
They care about publishing
and various things like that.
There's so much in this book.
Now,
Steve,
you were going over the book
right before Mark called.
Yeah.
Tell us a little bit more about it.
Mark,
have you heard about this book?
I didn't hear the title of the book.
I'm sorry,
Secrets of a Super Hacker.
Oh.
You haven't heard about it.
This has come out,
when was this published?
It came out in March.
Okay,
so you would have missed that.
Yeah.
Maybe we can try sending you a copy,
although it probably will come back.
This is material
that Mark is not allowed
to read right now.
Think of it.
You can get this
before Mark gets it
and learn all these things.
Maybe for a few weeks
you'll be a better hacker than Mark.
Maybe I'll see you here
before I leave.
Yeah.
All right.
And then he'll come back
and he'll catch up.
Unfortunately,
we're following
some of this information
we'll end up at.
A list of passwords?
Exercise care
in using information like this.
Yeah.
Be very careful.
212-279-3400,
please.
We have three calls on the line.
Let's make that seven
because seven is our grand total here
and it'd be great to get a bingo
as we're talking to these two fine people.
Well,
maybe one thing I'd like to say
as an incentive
for people to donate is...
Four calls.
...is the Loompanic's catalog,
which is a huge catalog of books
and kind of a cult favorite,
is a $5 item.
But folks,
I'd rather have you give the $5
to the radio station,
WBAI.
So if you call our phone number
and say that you heard Steve O'Keefe
on the radio,
they'll send you a catalog for free.
Okay.
Well,
we'll work that out.
We'll somehow get that to them,
but you will get that.
212-279-3400.
Please add to the...
Oh,
we're up to $250 now.
You see,
this is how it happens.
If enough people call in,
we're going to break $1,000 pretty soon
and that's a much better number
than $150,
isn't it?
Yeah.
And that money goes
to keeping this radio station
on the air,
to keeping this radio show going.
You know,
the little things,
buying editing tape
and recording tape
and paying the phone bill
and things like that
because, you know,
we have to make phone calls
to have guests on the radio
and it all adds up.
I don't know how many people out there
have ever operated a radio station,
but it does really add up.
And the thing is,
nobody here gets paid.
That's right.
We don't get paid for doing radio shows.
We don't get paid for all the work
that we do
because we just want to do it.
We want to get the word out.
You know no commercial radio station
is going to air this kind of thing.
How many commercial radio stations
have you heard
that talk about these issues
in intelligent terms?
You don't.
And there's a reason for that
because, you know,
the big mega corporations
advertise on them
and they kind of keep pressure
to keep things
from becoming a little too serious.
So that's why you got to call
212-279-3400.
Pledge whatever you can afford.
Use your Visa.
Use your MasterCard.
If you're in your car,
use your car phone.
And if you have one,
otherwise pull over to a pay phone.
212-279-3400.
Call your friends.
There.
That moment of silence
was for drama.
Yeah.
Mark,
now you're,
what's going on over there right now?
Here?
Yeah.
Not very much.
A few people are watching TV.
A bunch of people are using the phone.
Uh-huh.
Are you going to be able
to stay on for a while?
Right now,
I won't be able to call
immediately back,
but I can try calling back afterwards.
Okay,
because there are people
waiting for the phone.
Yeah.
Okay,
so why don't we give you
the balance of the time
to say, you know,
whatever is on your mind.
All right,
well,
what I did do today
is that I looked at the calendar
and I noticed that
the day that I get back,
November 22nd,
is a Tuesday,
which means that
if there is going to be
a radio show
the following night,
I can go be on the show.
Wow,
that'd be great.
Next day.
That's what,
November 23rd?
Yeah,
it's a Wednesday.
So the day after you get out,
that'd be amazing.
Yeah.
That's something to mark
on our calendars.
Yeah,
you'll have a lot to be thankful
for this Thanksgiving,
huh?
Yeah,
that's true.
We're up to $400,
by the way,
but we have no calls
on the line,
so if you're trying
to get through,
you can get through now.
There's nobody there.
212-279-3400
and I think we have
a total of 20 of these books.
Is that right, Steve?
That's right.
Okay,
and we do appreciate
your donation
to the radio station.
We kind of have to stick together,
all of us that stand up
for freedom of speech.
Mark,
did you happen to see
the NBC show,
Dateline NBC,
that had Loompanics on it?
No,
no,
we never really get
to see normal TV here.
Really?
No one really
watches normal TV.
What do they watch?
Love Connection?
Oh,
well,
there's one of two things on.
Either sports,
which as far as I'm concerned,
I'd rather not watch anything.
Yeah.
and the only cable channel
that anybody ever really watches
is HBO.
So you figure either
we're watching a movie
that we've seen 20 times already
or else somebody's watching sports
and that's about it.
No one watches normal television.
Wow,
that's interesting.
But,
you know,
not to give the impression
that people are lounging around
watching HBO,
there's the downside
to all of that
and that's that everybody
has to perform menial labor.
Oh yeah,
exactly.
We're not just lounging around all day.
This is only at night.
During the day,
everyone has a job
doing something.
Uh-huh.
You know,
whether it's,
it's mainly the upkeep
of the institution
is the main job,
keeping things clean
and so on
or working in the dining hall
or landscaping,
which is a nifty term
for either weed whacking
or in the winter time,
which is what I was doing
was shoveling snow.
And apart from that,
there's Unicor,
which is a very interesting company
that exists
at every single federal institution,
every single federal prison.
Yeah,
this is scary.
Yeah,
this is basically
a corporation
owned and operated
by the government
that employs prisoners
as slave laborers
to provide products
for other prisons
and for the military.
And this,
this is not an exaggeration
because when you employ people
and pay them what,
how much per hour?
Uh,
well,
I myself get paid
about 12 cents.
They probably get paid
maybe 40 cents
or maybe even 50 cents an hour.
So they're,
they're really
swaggering around there
with all that extra money.
Yeah.
40 or 50 cents an hour
and it's kind of,
kind of pressure
to,
to work in this place
because otherwise
you wind up
in a maximum security prison
and you have to build furniture
and this furniture
is used by the U.S. government
in various ways.
Yep,
this is true.
That's,
that's incredible.
Now,
you,
you yourself
are not working
for Unicor though.
No,
no,
they tend to target people
that have a long,
much longer sentences
that are going to be around
for a while.
Mm-hmm.
Any idea why they do that?
Oh yeah,
because they don't want to,
I,
I assume that the people
that are going to be here
for a while
are going to be more worried
about expenses
so I,
I guess they try
to entice them
with the little extra money
that they would be making
as opposed to,
you know,
a more menial job.
Uh-huh.
That is really,
really something though.
I mean,
I never heard about Unicor
before you went in there
so I mean,
even though you're in prison,
we're still able
to learn things.
Yeah.
Yeah,
we have a couple of books
on that probably
would have been helpful
to you on surviving
in prison
and it really is,
it's,
I gotta imagine
that the noise
and the lack of control
over your living conditions
have to be some of the
Yeah.
major hassles
of being there.
Mm-hmm.
We have a new book
coming out
by Jim Hogshire
called
You're Going to Prison
and it covers
a lot of information
that might help people
actually stay out of prison
like the importance
of your pre-trial
sentencing report
and how the system
is going to handle you
in different ways
along the chain
from the time
that they slap the cuffs
on you
to the time
that they put you
in prison
where you have
an opportunity
to make things
go easier.
Yeah.
Well,
I don't mean to interrupt
but I just got my
final click notification
that I'm going
to be disconnected.
How long do you have?
A few seconds now.
Okay.
So,
how long is the line?
Oh,
he's gone.
I can't tell you
what a pain it is
talking to somebody
under these conditions
but,
he'll call back
I guess
when he gets
the chance.
He has to wait
online again
and hopefully
we'll hear from him
again tonight.
Again,
this is off the hook.
We're on until midnight
tonight
and we have
with us
Steve O'Keefe
from LoomaPnics
publishing all kinds
of,
I guess,
risque material
in the eyes
of some.
Things on
how to hack,
how to make bombs,
how to,
what are some
of the other ones
that people
might be shocked by?
We have a book
called Successful Armed
Robbery
written by a guy
who's in the pen
actually.
He was successful
at it for years
before he went under
and I think
it's just fascinating
to take a look
at what really
goes through the mind
of somebody
as they're committing
robberies,
et cetera.
It's a lot
more chilling
than, say,
reading some
Hollywood
or seeing
some Hollywood
dramatized version
of it on the screen.
We have a lot
of books
on fake ID
and we actually
have quite a large
section on
prison,
life in prison,
surviving in prison,
making weapons
in prison.
It's really,
it's stunning
how many laws
there are
in this country
and sooner
or later
almost everybody
winds up
on the wrong
side of that
even if it's
as simple
as a traffic
citation
or something.
Nowadays
they can,
with asset
forfeiture,
they can virtually
steal you blind
if you violate
any of the
million laws
that they've
passed on the books.
And this is
fueling this whole
criminal justice
system,
which as we see
now is linked
up with some
corporations
that are using
prisoners as
slave labor.
I mean,
the whole thing
reeks,
you know,
it's like
the war on drugs
is a growth
industry for law
enforcement in the
United States.
And anybody who
steps on the wrong
side of the law
now isn't just
facing a reprimand
or being incarcerated,
they're also losing
all their assets,
their family and
relatives may have
their assets taken.
It's just,
it's gotten to be
ridiculous.
Well,
I mean,
I've heard that
we're reaching the
stage where,
you know,
a very large
percentage of the
U.S.
population is going
to be imprisoned
in the next couple
of decades and a
large part of the
remainder is going
to be in charge of
keeping them in
prison.
It's kind of scary.
Happy to say we've
got Mark back.
Welcome back,
Mark.
Yeah,
thanks.
I was able to
make a call back.
I'm surprised.
Wow,
do you have to
bribe somebody?
No,
nothing like that.
A couple of
cigarettes,
huh?
Yeah.
Yeah,
cigarettes there are
like the currency,
right?
Yeah,
that's true.
Cigarettes and
tuna fish.
Tuna fish?
Yeah.
Can people send
you cigarettes?
Oh,
no,
no.
Like I said
before,
anything that we
are forced to
buy here,
we can't get
from any other
source.
And what are the
things that you're
forced to buy
there?
Oh,
I mean,
what I mean
basically is like
food and things
like that.
Cigarettes,
certain types of
clothing,
stamps,
all the basic
necessities.
Saving
equipment,
I imagine.
Yeah,
exactly.
Toiletries,
anything like
that.
And we have
to pay their
prices.
Wow.
Are their prices
as low as what
they pay to work?
Well,
it depends.
Some things are
more expensive
than you'd expect
and other things
are,
I guess,
fair.
Mm-hmm.
Well,
we don't know
about the phone
company yet,
though,
because,
Mark,
have you heard
from anybody
that got a bill
from Locktell
yet?
What I heard,
I heard today
from someone
who got a bill,
they did mail me
a copy of it,
which I haven't
gotten yet,
but they said
something to the
effect that a
15-minute call
to New York City
was roughly $4
and some change.
That's not too
bad.
It wasn't too
bad,
if that's in fact
correct.
I'll have to see
once I get the
bill.
Okay,
then I guess
we'll be getting
bills,
too.
Yeah.
So,
I'm curious,
are there other
political prisoners
in the prison
that you're at?
Besides Mike Tyson.
Is Tyson in your
prison?
No.
No,
actually,
Mark,
you probably
didn't see
the MTV Awards,
did you?
No,
no,
we don't get MTV.
Yeah.
Well,
okay,
we'll tell you
about that
when you get out.
Yeah.
Again,
before you answer
that,
212-279-3400
is our phone number.
In case you
didn't hear it
before,
anybody that
calls in with
any pledge,
did I read you
correctly,
Steve?
You guys will
donate a copy
of the catalog.
Yeah,
I was going to
say if they
call us,
we'll give them
a free copy
of the catalog
in hopes that
they'll take that
money that they're
saving and donate it
to the station.
But what we can do
is we can fax you a list
of the people and then
that way you can...
That'd be great.
I'd be happy to
send free catalogs
to anybody
who makes any
donation.
Okay,
now a Loompanics
catalog,
I should point out,
those of you that
went to the 2600
meeting last week,
we had some
left over from
Hope,
and those of you
that were diving
for that box,
and some of you
hit your heads
together rather hard,
and I do apologize
for that in the
scramble to get
what was in the box,
what you were
trying to get
were a Loompanics
catalogs.
So this is a great
way to show your
appreciation for the
radio station,
get a Loompanics
catalog,
and realize that
you cracked your
head open for a
good reason,
212-279-3400.
Now if you pledge
$75,
you'll get that,
and you'll get
Secrets of a Super
Hacker.
If you pledge any
other amount,
well I guess if you
pledge any amount
less than $75,
you'll get the
catalog,
and if you pledge
above that,
you'll get the book
and the catalog.
Now Loompanics
catalog,
they're kind of
legendary because
they're so big.
Yeah.
I mean,
these really are
valuable commodities.
It costs us a
couple of bucks
just to put it
in the mail.
Yeah,
just to put it
in the mail,
let alone printing
and compiling the
thing.
I mean,
how many titles
do you have in
there?
There's almost,
well now we have
supplements that
come out every two
months,
so with the
supplements we're
over a thousand
books,
which are all
available for sale,
all of them
difficult to find
anywhere else.
Okay,
we have five calls
on the line,
five calls,
so that means two
more calls and we'll
get a bingo.
212-279-3400,
show your support
for freedom of
speech,
for books,
for reading material
of all sorts,
and for WBAI,
and for the hacker
world too,
because a lot of
what we're going
through is kind of
symbolic of what
everybody's going
through at some
stage in their
lives.
The drive for
independence,
the drive for
being able to
speak your mind
and being able to
live your life in a
free manner.
212-279-3400,
we're one away
from a bingo,
only one call
left and we have
every line lit.
212-279-3400,
remember every call
gets a catalog,
every $75 pledge.
Are you joking
me?
By the way,
Emmanuel.
This is horrible.
I asked,
no,
I don't want that.
I asked for
something to drink
and they're giving
me this awful
stuff that I've
never heard of
before.
Okay,
I'm sorry.
Yeah,
that's my trivial
needs,
never mind.
Emmanuel,
I saw somebody
interesting here
that we can talk
to.
Somebody interesting?
Yeah,
the reason why
I say that he's
interesting is
because he just
happens to be
an attorney.
An attorney in
prison?
Yes.
He's a prisoner?
Yes.
Okay.
I think it would
be a valuable
point of view
that we could
hear.
Okay,
point him on.
Okay,
hold on a second.
This is great,
we're getting
guest speakers
from prison.
Hey,
that's cool.
By the way,
we have every
line lit right
now.
Very,
very happy to
announce that.
Hello?
Hi,
who are we
talking to?
My name is
Sal.
I'm an attorney
here.
Hi,
Sal.
Yep.
This is Emmanuel
and we're on
the phone with
Steve from
Washington State
who is a
publisher.
Tell us what
you're there for.
I'm here for a
crime that's called
cash structuring a
transaction,
money transaction.
This is where you
cash a check
for over $10,000
and denominations
of under $10,000.
I see.
That sounds kind
of confusing.
In other words,
if you want $15,000
for some purpose
and you cash it
at the bills of
$7,500 and $7,500
instead of one
of $15,000.
So you can do
time for that?
Yes,
you can.
Gee.
And the reason
being is the bank
files a currency
transaction report
if the transaction
is over $10,000.
So what you're doing
is forcing the bank
not to file a form
in a sense.
Yeah,
we got about a
dozen books on
all of that
aspects of financial
shenanigans in our
catalog.
That's some of the
charges.
A lot of people
hear on that too.
That of some sort
of variation of
money laundering too.
How long did they
give you for that?
I got a year and a
day.
Same sentences,
Mark.
That's right.
Did you know at the
time that that was
even a crime?
No.
Incredible.
I practice civil
law on a state
level, city level
actually, New York
City.
I didn't even have
federal law books
in my office.
Never practiced
federal law.
The law only
passed in 86.
They call it the
Smurfing law.
It only passed in 86.
I just was completely
unaware of it.
So let's say you
get a check for
say $15,000 and
you only cash half
of it and then
you cash another
half of it.
Right.
You're committing a
crime by doing that.
That is correct.
I would never have
known that.
You're evading the
law which says
that anything.
Well, you know
what happened now?
Supreme Court in
January of 94 said
that you have to
have knowledge of
the law for it to
be illegal now.
That doesn't help
me at this point.
You mean even
though they've ruled
that what you got
sent in for isn't
a crime, you're
still in prison?
Yeah, because it
would cost too much
money to fight the
system to get out
of here.
That's incredible.
Sal, do you want
to give your address
for people to write
to you?
Same address as
Mark's.
Well, okay, but
it's a different name.
The last name is
Spinelli, S-P-I-N-E-L-L-I.
And you have a
number too, don't you?
Oh, you mean my
prison number.
I forgot about that.
You know, 34027-054.
Okay.
Hey, you know, that
054, that means you're
from New York, doesn't
it?
That the court was in
New York.
Southern District.
Southern District.
Okay.
And the rest of that
address, F-P-C, it's
Schoolkill, S-C-H-U-I-L-K-I-double-L, Unit 1, P.O. Box 670, Minersville, Pennsylvania, 17954.
It's an address we should all be memorizing by now.
Hope so.
Given it out so many times.
Well, Sal, best of luck.
I mean, have your impressions of prison been pretty much the same as Mark's?
Well, I don't know what his were, but mine were totally different than I anticipated.
What were you anticipating?
I thought it was really more of a, believe it or not, as naive as it sounds, more of a country club atmosphere.
You know, tennis courts and the whole deal.
Oh, man.
And I had no idea the mental games that are played, the head games.
The regimentation, I'm sure.
That's the part they're really sure.
I thought even at the federal correction offices would be a little bit professional.
Can you give us an example of the mental games?
Oh, for example, I'll give you one that's recent.
But I went to speak to the camp administrator yesterday about a possible halfway house,
complaining about the lack of paperwork that's been generated in that regard.
The same day there was an inspection, and I got inspections run from levels one to four, four being the best.
Two being like, you know, it's like A, B, C, D, you know.
Two being like one of the worst you can get.
But now in the seven months I've been here, I never got less than a three or a four.
I get a two.
The same day.
On my inspection.
Nothing wrong with my living cube or anything like that.
Right.
You're just making trouble.
Well, they gave me a message.
The message is don't make trouble.
Yeah.
Don't open your mouth.
Don't open your big New York City mouth.
Wow.
Are certain people targeted more than others?
Yeah, Mark is.
Mark is targeted more.
Oh, I think he is.
He may not take it, but I see it.
I think I'm more objective than he is.
And in what way?
For what reason?
Because I think they consider him a threat somehow.
Is that because he's political?
You know, a threat, number one, because of his alleged crime.
You know, it's something that they don't understand.
And secondly, I think, well, he doesn't play the game.
But why is he targeted?
Because his crime is something that they consider a form of terrorism.
Wow.
It's so blatant.
I see it as being blatant the way he gets harassed.
He may not say it, but I'm, you know, too modest.
But I see him getting harassed all the time.
That's incredible.
It's not unbelievable.
It's subtle.
It's not like, you know, nobody's beating you with rubber hoses.
It's little subtle things.
If five people are smoking within 50 feet of the unit,
and one of them is Mark,
you know that those people are going to get extra duty.
Uh-huh.
This is not a made-up example.
This is a real example.
Uh-huh.
Now, if five other people are smoking up there,
and one of them is not Mark,
then the guard will walk right by you while you're smoking.
Now, Mark, I guess, is able to handle this pretty well.
He seems to be his old self,
but I imagine there's lots of people there
that probably would crack under that kind of pressure.
It's just mental stuff.
If you have any, without sounding snobbish,
as long as you're smarter than the people here
and you know it's a head trip,
you don't really lose anything.
You can't be manipulated
if you know somebody who's trying to manipulate you.
That's the way you look at it.
Wow.
In a way, sometimes you laugh at it.
When it's happening to you,
at the time you get upset,
but then after a while you realize,
you know, what the quality of people,
you know, it's so blunt,
they're so obvious in their actions
that it's almost comical.
So how many do you do, Al?
Almost the same time as Mark.
My release date is in January,
and I've been fighting for the last two months
to get halfway house,
because my wife is quite ill.
But that, you know,
that doesn't seem to mean anything.
I could get out any day
if they gave me halfway house.
For example, if they let me out today,
I would have three and a half months halfway house.
But Judge Walkler isn't.
But I haven't been able to get the papers processed.
Half my house is ready to accept me.
Everything else is ready.
But the people here cannot do the work.
Yeah, you just get caught up
in the machinery of the justice system.
It's a question that they're lazy,
and they don't have the ability to do any work.
They really have poor work habits.
Well, that's because you guys
are doing all their work for them,
keeping the place clean.
Well, that's part of it,
but it's just they can't be fired.
Well, it's work habits
that if they were in the private sector,
they'd last about two minutes on the job.
You know, they can't complete a full thing.
They can't do a...
All right, let me start on this...
On inmate A's application,
and I'll finish it.
No, they'll do...
They'll put the name on 200 applications,
for example, or 170,
how many do they have.
It's on the next 170.
So at that rate,
they should be finished in 1995.
Mm-hmm.
Which is about when
they'll be released anyway.
Yeah, exactly right.
See, Mark is going to the end.
He's not going to go to a halfway house.
Yeah, because they offered him
a halfway house
that he didn't want to go to
that he thought was
in a very dangerous neighborhood.
In Bed-Stuy.
Yeah, and there was one
that would be perfect for him,
but they wouldn't give him
that one, of course.
They would never do the paperwork.
That requires another piece of paper.
Uh-huh.
That requires additional work.
Uh-huh.
It's really hard for somebody
on the outside
to understand the mindset over here.
They would not do that
if extra work.
Well, we had a similar situation.
We were trying to visit somebody
at Allenwood
in a minimal security prison there,
and they delayed
sending the form for a month,
then we sent the form back,
then a month later
they sent it back to us
saying you didn't fill in
this line properly,
and by the time
we got to the point
where, you know,
we would send it back in,
and he was about
ready to come out anyway,
so this person didn't get
a single visitor
because of this crap.
Yeah, it's a question of
part of it is...
Oh, there's a message.
Okay, yeah.
Part of it is intentional,
and part of it is
they just don't have
the ability to do it.
So we wish you
the best of luck.
Is Mark there?
Hold on one second.
Okay.
Hello?
Hey, that was quite a story
from your fellow prisoner there.
Now, are you going to be
able to call us back again?
Oh, you want for two hours?
We're on until midnight, yes.
Oh, great.
Yeah, I can call back.
Okay, that's great.
Is there anybody else
there you have to talk to us?
I can go round up some people.
Okay.
No, I mean,
every person seems to have
quite a story behind them.
Part of you.
But that's something.
That's something.
It's a shocking story.
All right,
we're going to be cut off
any second now.
Yeah.
So you want to wait for that?
Yeah, we might as well,
and then I'll call back.
Okay.
Yeah, hey,
I want to mention here,
I guess,
that, you know,
a lot of people
really don't realize
what's coming for them
when they get caught
in the machinery
of the criminal justice system.
You know,
they operate by their own rules.
And Mark is gone,
but he will call back
hopefully soon.
It's Kafka-ish, yes.
Loompanics actually does,
one thing I'm proud of
is we do provide
a number of manuals
like the Outlaw's Bible,
which really tell you
all the stuff
that's about to happen
to you
and little points
along the way
that you'd be surprised at
where you can make
things go easier.
If you're in trouble
with the law,
I really suggest
that you not wait
until your day in court
to find out
that they don't care
about you,
they don't care
about your family,
they don't even care
about your crime.
You just are now
an administrative number
and you're caught
in this machinery.
And if you don't know
what's coming,
you're going to end up
getting twice as long
a sentence
and twice as worse conditions
as you could
if you were prepared.
Mark is back.
Welcome back, Mark.
Yeah, luckily
I was able to get back.
This is a very good night
for us.
No huge lines
in the phones.
Yeah.
Sometimes you have
to wait for hours.
Yeah, that's definitely true.
Okay, well,
I'm glad it's working.
Again, thanks to everybody
who's calling in.
Our number is
212-279-3400.
Please show support
for the radio station.
This has been
an incredible series
of conversations here.
I mean, where else
can you tune in
and hear people
talking live from prison
about prison conditions?
True, it's not
a maximum security prison,
but I'm kind of surprised
by the way things are
in a minimal security prison.
You wouldn't expect
this kind of,
as your fellow prisoner
was saying,
mind games
to be played on people
and just this overall sense
that you're so
completely powerless
and at the mercy of them.
It scares me
and I'm on the outside.
I really, you know,
I have a lot of respect
for people in there
that are able
to keep their sanity.
And if it does you any good,
we're out here
and we care
and we'll do
everything we can
to make things
more bearable.
Well, Manuel,
I have a couple
more people here.
Okay, let me just
give out the phone number
one more time.
212-279-3400.
Please show your support
for the radio station.
We're up to zero?
Why is there a zero
up there?
Okay, there's a zero
on our screen.
I don't know why
there's a zero there,
but we were up to
something like
five or six hundred
before,
so hopefully we're
climbing and all
those phone calls
were coming in before.
212-279-3400.
We have the book.
Hopefully we have
enough of them.
Call in and grab them
before they all go away.
Secrets of a Super Hacker
for a $75 pledge
or more,
and everybody that
calls in with a pledge
of any size
will get a copy
of the Loompanic's
catalog with
thousands of titles?
Yeah, over a thousand.
Over a thousand titles
of all kinds of
neat things,
including things
that will help you
stay out of prison,
hopefully,
and all kinds of
interesting titles.
I mean,
you could say that
printing a book
on how to successfully
commit an armed robbery
is a horrible thing.
It's very easy to say
what possible good
is this going to serve.
Well,
supposing you're writing
a movie or a book
or something,
and you want somebody
in there to commit
an armed robbery.
Wouldn't you like it
to be somewhat realistic?
Supposing you're a bank
manager and don't want
to end up on the
wrong end of it.
That's another very
good point.
Yeah.
The NBC people,
they were...
I mean,
most guys that commit
armed robberies
don't go out and read
a book on how to do it
before they do it.
You know,
they're druggies
or whatever,
they need some money,
they walk into a bank
and stick a gun
in somebody's face.
It's not like
we're fueling
the criminal element
by publishing this.
If anything,
we're letting
more straight people
know what people
will do
when they're in
a situation like that.
212-279-3400.
Your support here
is a vote for
this kind of radio program,
this kind of conversation
and dialogue
that really will come
to you in no other place.
And without this radio station,
you're just going to hear
more top 40 hits
and, you know,
all kinds of shop-at-home
nonsense that we're going
to be exposed to
in the 90s.
So please give us a call.
You know,
one of the things,
Steve,
that they said on NBC
was how do you guys
justify printing books
on how to make explosives?
And you guys had
a really snappy comeback
that never made it
to the air.
What was that comeback?
Yeah, well,
I told the producer
that one thing
the book could be used for
was to rig trucks
to explode
on network news programs.
And, of course,
Dateline NBC
is the program
that did rig up
a truck to explode
in a fraudulent segment
on how unspeakable
certain vehicles
were in a collision.
A sore point
for NBC, certainly.
Huh?
That was a sore point
for NBC
because they rigged
the story.
I could tell the jaws
dropped immediately
when I mentioned that.
And, of course,
heads rolled at NBC
over that.
The head of their
news department
was fired
because of that incident.
So they seem to lack
a sense of humor
about that.
Here they are
chastising us
for publishing a book
on how to make explosives
while at the same time
they're using explosives
to rig phony
crash tests
on their program.
Well, I'm glad
you got to say it
here anyway.
Well, this is one
of those uncensored
environments.
I mean, I haven't been
bleeped out once tonight.
That you know of.
You wouldn't know
if you got bleeped,
but no, you didn't.
And it's live
and it's real.
I mean, on all these
blow-dried network
news programs
that you see,
everything has been
just edited down
from massive files
of tapes
to make the story
look whatever way
they want at the time.
I should point out,
too, that we were
talking about people
filming and everything
like that.
We had a film crew
in here while you
were saying that.
I thought that was
very ironic there,
but we had someone
from TBS here
a little while ago
filming the radio show.
Yeah, that's great.
So you were on film
yet again,
even though you
didn't know it.
On film virtually.
Yeah, it's pretty incredible.
212-279-3400.
All but one line is lit,
so one more call
we'll get another bingo.
My theory as to why
there's a big zero
on the screen
is because things
are in such turmoil
down in the tally room
that, well, people
don't have time
to change the actual...
Yeah, it sounds like
turmoil down there.
A lot of people
talking and running
into each other,
so hopefully
they'll change the numbers
so we can find out
how many people
have called in.
Mark, are you still there?
Yeah, I think
you just lost
the prison line.
Oh, dear.
I wonder why we lost it.
Huh.
We shouldn't have
lost that line.
Well, maybe it's another
mind game
that they're playing
with them.
That was not 15 minutes
so we shouldn't
have lost that line.
Boy, I hope
he gets back soon.
Okay, this might be him.
Mark, is this you?
Yeah, there's all
the static and stuff.
Yeah, there was a lot
of static.
I don't know why.
It's coming on your line
now.
Oh, maybe we're
being jammed.
Maybe.
But you seem okay now.
So, okay,
what do you got for us?
Okay, hold on one second.
Okay.
I think he's convincing
people to be on the radio.
Very nice live reports
from American prisons
because people really,
you know,
one of the problems
prisoners have
is that it's out of sight,
out of mind, you know.
Right.
Sweep them under the carpet.
Well, that's,
we're not about to do that here.
A lot of the people,
I've come to meet
some of these people there
when I visit
and, you know,
it's so sad to see them
in this state,
you know,
where their families
come and visit them
and, I mean,
these are not violent criminals.
These are not people
that really should be
locked away like this.
I think you got one
on the line there.
There's someone here.
Oh, it's me again.
Apparently,
they're a little radio shy.
I can understand that.
I mean, you know,
they might frown
on things like that
at the prison even.
Yeah.
So, you got to be
kind of careful,
but I could understand
why people would be
kind of shy.
Have you ever had reprisals
because of stuff
you said on the radio, Mark?
Oh, I don't think
anyone's really aware
of it yet.
Uh-huh.
And probably it's best
that they aren't.
Yeah.
You know,
we've only done this
twice before already.
Uh-huh.
Well, hopefully,
we'll be able to do this
until you get out
in November.
Tell us, Mark,
what do you miss the most?
I've asked this before,
I know,
but still,
it might change
from week to week.
Any particular things
that you want to do
when you get out?
That I want to do?
Well, I mean,
things that you,
little things that you miss.
Oh, well,
I miss everything.
I mean,
I miss being a free man.
Yeah, but what is
being a free man?
I mean,
I'm trying to put this
in context to our listeners
that are hopefully
all free people,
things that they may
take for granted.
Well, I miss my family.
I miss my friends.
Just being able
to see people
on a daily basis.
I mean,
seeing people that I know.
I miss the familiarity
of my own neighborhood,
of where I work,
of my own bed,
of decent real food to eat,
and toothing your food,
I imagine.
What's this?
Just being able
to tooth what food
you're going to eat.
Yeah,
being able to make
choices for yourself.
You're treated
like a child here.
You have to be
herded like animals
and constantly told
what to do.
One thing
that a caller
asked last week
that got on
after you had already left
was how has,
how will this change you
as far as
your hacker mentality?
Are you going to
act differently
when you get out of prison?
Well,
I think that
in some ways
it's put me
into a position
where I feel compelled
to talk out
as more of an activist.
I mean,
of course,
I was doing that before,
but I feel even more
compelled to do so now.
Well,
that's,
that's,
I'm sure,
exactly what they had
in mind
when they sent you
to prison,
isn't it?
What's that?
To make you
into an activist.
I mean,
these prison sentences
really don't seem
to be having
the effect
that the government
wants them to have.
No,
not at all.
That's probably
that's probably
also why they think
you have kind of
a bad attitude
there or something.
It sounds like
you get singled out
for special mistreatment
and maybe that's
because you're
becoming an activist
over this.
Is that possible?
Oh,
you mean here
or you mean in general?
Yeah,
I mean there.
Oh yeah,
of course.
The thing that's strange
is that since I've
gotten here,
I mean,
I can only guess
what they do
but it's strange
how many of the staff
know my name
just in passing.
You know,
like say
there might be
some new
prison officer,
you know,
a guard
that I haven't seen before
and he knows
what my name is.
You know what I mean?
It's almost as if
he's been briefed
or something.
I'm real curious
if you have
any piece of advice
for say somebody
who might be hacking
or might be,
you know,
doing something
that's legally
questionable
and all of a sudden
the man's
on the doorstep.
You know,
somebody showed up
and their number
is up.
Is there something
along the line
that people can do
to make things
go better?
Yeah,
well,
one of the most
important things
to do
before you even
have to start
thinking about
going to prison
is the mistake
that a lot of people
make in a frenzy
in the panic
of those first few
moments
is to start telling
them everything
you know
because you think
you're going to
feel better
and be better off
according to them.
Absolutely not
the case.
Don't ever
tell them
anything.
Right.
Nothing.
Right.
The less that
you tell them
the better off
you'll be.
So what you're
saying is that
if federal agents
say trust us
you should not
trust them.
Trust us
or what they
said to me
was we already
know everything
so tell us
what you did.
And when you
think about that
for only half a second
you realize
if they know
everything
they want to
know that.
Exactly.
But those
were their exact
words.
Unbelievable.
It's true.
It's hard.
You know
it sounds silly
now but when
you're in that
position and the
agents standing
there in front
of you you're
scared to shit
you know and
the tendency is
to just try to
talk your way
out or something.
And I think
what people do
is they tend
to talk themselves
into a great
big hole.
Right.
The best thing
to do is
clam up as
tightly as
possible.
And seek
legal counsel
obviously.
Obviously yeah.
You don't want
to give them
the impression
that you're
not cooperating
but you're
simply going
to have
some difficulty
answering their
questions without
legal counsel
present.
That's funny
you know we
have this show
here called
NYPD Blue
and almost
every single
week they
have this
scene where
they say
okay you can
ask for a
lawyer but if
you ask for a
lawyer then this
deal that I'm
offering you is
going to be
null and void
and you're
going to wind
up going to
prison so why
don't you talk
to me now and
we can keep the
lawyers out of it
and you know you
can be happy and
free.
Of course in
this particular
case the cops
are the good
guys so if
they talk to
the cops before
the evil lawyers
get involved
everybody walks
away happy but
it doesn't always
work that way in
real life does
it?
So seldomly
does it ever
work that way
and I'm sure
there's plenty of
people here that
are going to
tell you that
that they were
going to cooperate
and things would
be easier.
Yep.
No it's just a
bad idea to
cooperate with
any official like
that.
I mean to let
them into your
premises without a
warrant.
Sure.
Once you invite
them in anything
they see or
anything they
think they see or
anything they
plant on your
premises is now
going to be you
know grounds for
getting a warrant
and arresting you.
Now if you do not
invite them in that's
not seen as not
cooperating is it?
No if they don't
have a warrant they
have no right to
come in.
Right.
And if you invite
them in you're just
opening a can of
worms for yourself.
Exactly.
And if you say
anything to them
anything at all I
mean just even
like something you
think is totally
innocuous you know
can I get a glass of
water or something
anything can end up
leading to problems.
Uh huh.
Absolutely.
You know I thought
I would just mention
this there was just
an incident in
Michigan about a
month ago where a
game company was
invaded by the
Secret Service very
similar to the
Steve Jackson games
another one incident
yes and what what
it was is part of
their role playing
game involved these
fake FBI badges or
something and somebody
had seen them in a
trade show and said
that these people were
counterfeiting Secret
Service badges.
Okay so but it's a
game and the badges
are like neon green
they're obviously not
real Secret Service
badges and and the
Secret Service raided
their building and
um one of the
interesting upshots was
they didn't seize their
computers because they
said it's against the
law to take a computer
if somebody is writing a
book on it it's
considered a work in
progress and that's
protected by uh the
first amendment.
Well that's one of the
things to come out of
the Steve Jackson games
case.
Right so now um at
Loompanics we've all
been told you know if
anybody ever shows up at
the door uh to say
that we got novels and
and and books in
progress on these
computers and please
don't take them.
Uh-huh that's uh that's
something too because I
was involved in something
similar to that back in
the uh early 80s and uh
one of the computers that
was seized had all these
things I was writing you
know and there's nothing
worse than the feeling
that all this uh this
stuff from from from your
heart is not only lost
but in in in the minds
you know in in the
possession of these
people that will never
be able to to appreciate
it and will do god knows
what with it it's a real
invasion you want to
talk about invasion of
privacy that is an
invasion doesn't get any
worse than that that's
where they they come and
they just yank everything
out of your out of your
life and and reduce you
to uh to uh you know
the the shivering creature
over in a corner that's
got nothing left I mean
mark you've been put in
that situation a couple of
times haven't you I mean
uh make no mistake we
have absolutely no privacy
whatsoever here uh our
uh our uh our possessions
are uh systematically searched
through periodically by um
by the staff and uh they
call them shakedowns they're
looking for contraband and
what's contraband contraband
is anything that they don't
allow you to have basically
whether it's something
completely innocuous like uh
say for instance a piece of
uh plasticware to eat
something with or uh you know
and and so on or a piece of
food that you might have
tried to bring back with you
from the kitchen oh you can't
do that huh oh that's all
considered contraband
wow yeah how do you keep
track of all the rules uh
well you kind of get used to
it I mean you just figure if
you work with the mindset that
you can't do anything then
then uh you won't get caught
up in anything I guess it's a
healthy attitude yeah I mean
uh that's what it is one of
the other points that I
wanted to bring up that uh the
other people here were telling
me uh that should be said is
the state of uh overcrowdedness
the fact that uh we have uh
tv rooms that are supposed to
be recreational rooms closed
off and they're filled with
bunk beds because there are so
many people here initially uh to
my knowledge this uh prison was
built for roughly 150 people
there uh there is currently over
300 here and that's got to be
illegal in some way I'm sure it
is when you have when you have
30 people expected to use a single
toilet yeah or you have uh 60
people and say uh two toilets and
two or three showers it starts to
get ridiculous just the violence
that is likely to erupt when you
have that many people in such a
obviously there's arguments over
uh of the television there's
arguments over uh who's first
online to eat there's arguments
over who's first online to use the
telephone there's arguments over
everything and sometimes they do
erupt into fights because uh so
it just gets to you things can
really get under your skin yeah
people aren't meant to live under
those conditions I mean the
American prison system has as
conditions that are so abhorrent
abhorrent that if if we saw them
on tv we we would think this was
some third world country or
something or exactly some foreign
uh you know something out of
midnight express or something well
you know what scares me is that
you're in a camp mark you're in you're
in the lowest possible you know
security prison exactly what's it
like across the street in that other
place yeah the thing that makes me
laugh is when uh i have an
interview done and uh some moron ends
up writing in the paper that oh it's
such a nice place it was so clean
there were even flowers in the front
of the building yeah i saw the
flowers last time i was there yes if
that's all it takes to fool people to
make them think that this is such a
wonderful place then uh they should
put flowers in front of every prison
and everyone will be fooled they'll be
trying to get into prison they'll
think it's so great and i think one of
the great tragedies of this is that
most of the people that are in prison
in the united states are not there
because they harmed anyone in any way
the only harm they did was to their
own selves through drugs or through
totally victimless crimes i mean a lot
of people just assume that since you're
going to trial or since you've been
arrested you must have done something
wrong but there's there's these vast
numbers of people out there that have
done nothing wrong whatsoever except
consenting involuntary behavior with
other consenting adults and yet they're
locked up in the united states in what
are increasingly dismal conditions you
know and just treated like subhuman
beings and for what there's you know
the idea of a crime against the state is
wrong there there's crimes against people
and those are the ones that that the
law enforcement should be out there
trying to protect us from crimes of
violence crimes of of of fraud but
these crimes where people don't commit
any crime like for example gaining access
into somebody's computer you haven't done
anything wrong to their computer you
haven't damaged any information if you
don't go in and monkey with their
files you haven't you haven't harmed
them in any way in fact you may have
pointed out a security breach to them
well mark's biggest offense in their
eyes was as the judge said he was a
symbol he was somebody that spoke out
he was somebody that that showed them
what was wrong with the systems and
wouldn't back down and admit that he
was an evil person he never did that and
because of that they they had to deal
with him they had to they had to crack
him and also the judge said that if he
could he would have given me more time
oh amazing and and did you um in your
case did they find you guilty of doing
any damage to computers no none
whatsoever of all the millions of
dollars and recently i just requested a
copy of my uh pre-sentencing
investigation report right of all the
millions of dollars and damages that
were alleged by that this company in
that company i was held responsible for
absolutely none of it because not once
did any of the companies actually come
forward with an itemized list they
they had they had uh... these vague
notions of well across this much to
hire the security people it costs this
much to install new security countermeasures
right but that's their responsibility in
other words you have done no damage that
they have shown whatsoever to their
system and yet you are in prison just
because basically insulting their
security system right you know uh... people
put this stuff out on the airwaves like
people talk over over cellular phones
which anybody can listen into and then
all of a sudden listening in is a crime
we just lost him uh... we didn't uh... say if
he was gonna be able to call back
hopefully he will be
it was getting very interesting you know
it's it's really good to hear him speak
out like that because uh... you know
that's that's the mark uh... we all know
and love
well i i actually think prison will make
uh... you know will make missionaries
out of people that that were were
simply just trying to get through their
life before they got hooked up with
this criminal justice machine and uh...
it's it's really happening all over the
united states okay we got him back
mark you there i'm here okay let me uh... just uh...
again i hate to do this but it is very
important because uh... we wouldn't be
here now if we didn't have this radio
station and we need to uh... get people
to call in and show their support
we've raised a total i don't know how
we did this raise a total of nine
hundred and thirty two dollars apparently
somebody somebody pledged an uneven
amount somehow uh... that's okay fine no
problem with someone pledged two dollars
or something uh...
they won that catalog
yeah every every bit counts so uh...
please give us a call 212-279-3400
think of what you're hearing here tonight
this is something unprecedented uh...
uh... hearing uh... live uh...
talk from prison not just from mark but
from some of his fellow prisoners as
well
uh... speaking about i mean we really
hadn't planned on on delving into this
particular aspect of uh... of the hacker
world namely prison conditions but it's
it's a very pertinent issue something
that we do need to focus on something
bai does focus on at other times
uh... and you can show your support for
uh... this kind of uh... um... freedom of
speech is kind of uh... of coverage uh... by
pledging to the radio station making sure
that we're still here remember we don't
have commercials we don't have any
commercials at all if we had commercials
we wouldn't be able to have programming
like this and uh... that's just a simple
way we prefer it this way because who
wants to hear an at&t commercial you
know can you imagine we have to break
now and for the stupid you will
commercials
you know that would sort of defeat the
whole purpose of what we're talking
about here
and uh... if we were a commercial radio
station we would have to do that it's
it's it's holy you know it's something
you do not joke about the commercial is
what keeps the station going and that's
what allows you to pay people huge
amounts of money and things like that
and of course you all wind up paying for
the commercials too because you wind up
paying for the products and uh... and
budgeted into the products are or are
things for advertising so you wind up
paying twice really you have to sit
through all the crap and listen to the
commercials and then you have to pay
for the products which uh... cover the
advertising
now can you imagine how much lower our
phone bills would be if all that
money spent by sprint and at&t and
mci on ads were uh... were just
rebated to customers on their phone
bills
oh yeah i mean i don't even know why
nine x has to advertise their
monopoly you don't have a choice
you know they they say boy use your
phone you know it's nice to talk to
people well okay yeah we do that
already what do you want us to do
use it 24 hours a day you know you
don't really have a choice i mean
that that's going to change uh...
mark have you been keeping up with
that there's there going to be local
phone companies hopefully soon
what's this well hopefully there will
be there they're talking about them
they're called caps c-a-p's uh...
all right yeah and uh...
i've read about that hopefully so i
mean that there are some already in
new york city but it hasn't reached
the stage where you know joe q
public or whatever can uh... call up
and choose a local phone company but
that day is coming and no doubt
because of of lots of the
complaints that we've been echoing
here on this radio station they've
been happening to people all over
the place and they want competition
they want something to choose from
and uh... that's uh... you know
that's that's part of the whole
thing freedom of choice you can
choose what it is you want to use
uh... how you want to use technology
that's what we're all about here
uh... the thing is though we need
you in order to be able to do that
we don't have sponsors except for
you are our listeners people like you
are our sponsors and uh... to keep it
that way we need our sponsors to help
and show us support every now and
then this is the time two one two
two seven nine three four hundred
what are we up to we're going down
now there i think they're
recalculating over there yeah you
should remind them about that free
catalog
yeah manual i have to interrupt
unfortunately they're in the process
of closing this building down oh
dear so uh... we're gonna have to
move back up to our unit but
there's only two telephones there
okay what does that mean well that
means that basically there's a hundred
hundred sixty people that may or may
not want to use two telephones
yeah so i can try to get back
through again
okay well let's uh... give it your
best shot hopefully we'll hear back
from you later on tonight uh... of
course your your phone system goes
down doesn't it once a night
uh... goes down at midnight
uh... and it comes back on at one
o'clock
okay why does it do that why does the
phone system go down for an hour
they never actually gave any specific
reason they they claim that uh...
there's various rumors that it
might be to uh... change tapes to
record phone calls or uh... just for
uh... possible maintenance
well they're gonna love this one
won't they
what's that
when they get around to listening to
this phone call but they'll
they'll certainly be entertained
yeah
wow
well that's quite a world you live
in over there
i hope you don't end up paying the
price for some of them
well uh... if i do is it was a risk
worth taking what they can't do is
keep me from coming home on november
twenty second
that's all i'm talking about
the freedom of speech
here's a guy taking a chance that
he's gonna get you know reprisals
here in prison just for speaking
his mind about the criminal
justice system on radio
it's amazing
yeah
all right mark you stay uh...
stay cool over there
okay i'll try to call back
all right hopefully we'll hear
from you
okay bye bye
take care
yeah that that's
i don't know if i could do that
you know i don't know if i could
uh...
be as cool about that as
as he's being
yeah i was
i'm i'm impressed
i mean i i've not heard mark
before um
and um...
um...
i can tell that
this
it sounds like this
experience has really
changed him
and uh...
and who wouldn't be
changed by it
well i think it's it's brought
out what was always there
you know mark's always been
a courageous person
someone who's uh...
you know
got a sense of
of the surroundings
and can pretty much
uh...
scope out a situation
fairly
fairly quickly
um...
i think you know
part of this is because
he's got so much support
from people
you know in the hacker world
from people in the radio world
that have been following
what's been going on
you know and that's
that makes a big difference
because even even when
you're in there for a little
while i mean i visit him
now and then
and i'm in there for a few
hours
you're really really happy
to be out of that place
because it's so
confining you feel
the eyes constantly on you
watching everything you do
listening to everything you
say
it's a it's a damn scary
place
and this is a minimal
security prison
and i'm a visitor
and if i get this kind
of reaction
just from being there
uh... you know
so so few
uh... amount of hours
compared to
his 24 hours a day
i mean you can imagine
what somebody that's
uh... that that's there
feel i mean most people
would change yes
but they would change
for the worse
they come out of this
intimidated
and um... you know
they'll never break
a rule in their lives
no matter what kind
of rule it is
uh... market sounds
like it's still going
to be able to um...
you know to challenge
injustices
and i sure hope
uh... that's the case
yeah it's uh...
uh... some people
think there's country
club prisons
and there really
aren't country
club prisons
if to the extent
that there are
you're never going
to go to one
well yeah
i mean casper
weinberger might
go to one
or something
you're uh...
you're uh...
you're uh...
even your well-to-do
uh... well-heeled
criminals are not
going to end up
going to a very
nice place to be
and uh... the other
thing i wanted to
mention on that is
is uh... like
prisoner lawsuits
you hear about
these lawsuits
because they served
crunchy peanut
butter and not
smooth peanut
butter and some
prisoners suing
over that
right
people don't
realize it's
is they're suing
over that because
they're suing over
anything that they
can sue over and
they aren't allowed
to sue over you
know being beat
up but they are
allowed to sue
over the kind of
food that they're
served
well and the other
reason you hear
about and this is
the real reason you
hear about is because
the media wants to
say look how silly
this is look how
these people are
wasting your tax
dollars that's the
story they want to
they want to air
right
they don't want to
go into something
the truth behind
these lawsuits is
it's just a way of
striking out and
fighting back against
the bizarre injustice
of prison
i mean this has been
a trip for all of
us
you know we never
really were able to
go behind the wall
and see what it was
like back there
we're learning a lot
you know this is
this is stuff that
we didn't necessarily
want to learn but
you know we've been
forced into it and
all of a sudden the
whole thing has gotten
much bigger you know
there's a lot of
injustice it's not just
against computer
hackers and people
that play with
technology a lot of
people are affected
by this
plus in the prison
it's those people who
become political that
are most heavily
targeted by by the
prison officials for
reprisals there's
nothing worse than
somebody who knows
their rights and is
willing to stand up
for them in a prison
it just singles you
out as being a
troublemaker a
troublemaker for
standing up for
basic human dignity
like being able to
take a shower you
know more than once a
week or being able to
walk out of your cell
more than an hour a
day I mean and these
people who are willing
to suffer greatly just
to stand make a stand
on principle but
there's nothing that
the state hates more
than somebody that is
willing to take a stand
on principle and not
yield on that I mean
that's funny because
yeah that's that's true
within a prison but you
know it's also true just
within our society there's
nothing that government
hates more than somebody
that does that because
it really makes things
a royal pain in the ass
for them yeah
absolutely you know if
they have an agenda
and there's people
standing up and
preventing it I mean
obviously they're going
to want any way to to
get those people out of
the way and and keep
themselves looking
looking good too but
it is a reality a lot
of people out there who
are doing innocent
activities on computers
say you're just you're
just cruising around the
internet you know and
you're trying to find out
what's in this database
or what's in that
database all of a sudden
you can be tagged as
some sort of a hacker I
mean that's where this
book secrets of the
super hacker editing it
really helped me navigate
the internet because even
though I'm not doing any
hacking on there if you're
swimming around the
internet you're going to
get to places where you're
stuck and and you might
try a command like menu or
or enter or or a list or
something like that that
all of a sudden pops you
out of being unstuck so
there's there's a whole
version of hacking that
has nothing to do with
the legal breaking in it's
just a search for
information in most cases a
very harmless search for
information and and yet
nowadays you know you
might stumble into the
wrong corner of the net and
be considered some sort of
criminal for that right and
and knowing this beforehand
knowing that you might
stumble into the wrong part
of the net it certainly
takes away the the spirit
of adventure when you're
actually trying to figure
the thing out you know
you'll be overly cautious
you'll you'll be careful
what you say and what you
do and you'll be looking
over your shoulder all the
time thinking that if you
type the wrong word you
could be breaking a law
and it's it's not really
the best way to venture
into a new territory like
I can understand how they
might put somebody in jail
if they caused you know
a company's computers to
totally self-destruct or
melt down or crash or
whatever of course that's
causing damage that's that's
doing something that's a
crime but to put somebody
in jail for for simply
curiosity or simply just
trying to to open pick a
lock if you will an
electronic lock or for
speaking out of doing any
damage whatsoever maintaining
that lock is really the
responsibility of those
companies and and
unfortunately fiber optic
has done them a great
favor by pointing out
weaknesses in their
security and now he's
paying the price of being
behind bars for it so
unbelievable well you know
we've been we've been
following this case for for
years now you know this
this all started back in
nineteen what is it eighty
nine when he was raided the
first time this has been
going on for such a long
time I mean not just being
put in prison but the fear
of being put in prison for
five years you know that's
that's a prison in itself
just having to worry about
this I mean I went through
this a long time ago in the
early eighties and there
was that fear one point
they were saying they're
going to send me to prison
for fifty five years for
using someone's login
password you know and you
know at the time I said
that's that's crazy you know
that's never going to
happen but there was this
element in me that was
afraid because what are
they going to do you know
what are they really going
to do these people are
nuts they they don't
understand the system
themselves they they
just want to make an
example and they have the
upper hand you know a lot
of people are facing
situations like this and we
have to be there for them
we have to be able to give
them a voice and and and
listen and you know not
not treat them as if
they're they're doing
something bad because lots
of times they're not doing
something bad we have to be
able to do yeah to to be
open-minded about these
things
you know at Loompanics
we as editorial director
there I've dealt with a lot
of people in prison over the
last 10 years and it's been
it's been an eye-opening
experience many of our
authors are doing time they
have their mail read they
have their mail seized I
can't even send them copies of
their own books that they've
written because they're not
allowed into the prisons they've
had manuscripts seized and I've
also dealt with many people who
are you know on the lamb from
from the cops and their phone
numbers change every 30 days
their addresses are always
changing we're holding royalties
and escrow for them because we
can't find them to send them their
checks and stuff it it's really a
different world and a lot of
people don't see it because they
they don't want you to see it I
mean it really is that's probably
the most frightening thing about
prison is if you're inside you feel
like the whole world's forgotten
about you and because that's part of
the punishment is they tried to make
it out of sight out of mind and and
make you disappear to make you
feel like you're less than a human
being you know we touched upon this
last week for a few minutes at the
close of the program we were
talking about super maximum
security have you heard anything
about this yeah Marian prison is an
example of that well now this was
supposedly something that they're
thinking of in the future where they
build something into a mountain and
and these these are for people that
would never have any human contact
whatsoever I have not heard about
this yeah that's that's something
that supposedly has been in several
magazine articles and documentaries
and meant for people you know serial
killers of the most incredible
caliber people that you would never
want to have in touch with somebody
else their food would be given to
them by by machinery they'd be you
know a shower would come up and and
they'd use that but no person would
ever be in contact with them and just
seemed like a punishment worse than
death you know if this is such a
thing that has actually being
considered yeah I guess that's
supposedly not cruel or unusual huh
maybe if it's too common then it
won't be unusual well the thing is
these are people that you would
supposedly have no pity or sense of
compassion for in the first place
but you have to wonder you know how
how can a society make something like
that that really is is incredibly cruel I
think even to anybody else who is in
human themselves yeah there's a prison
called Marion I'm not sure I think it's
Marion Ohio it's a maximum security
prison and the Supreme Court ruled that
you know it's cruel and unusual
punishment to lock somebody down and to
deny them showers and to deny them
movement and recreation etc but
apparently it's not cruel and unusual to
if you lock down the entire prison so the
the prison in Marion has been on
lockdown since 1987 and this has become a
new strategy with federal prisons is to
simply lock them down and keep them
locked down for indefinitely and you can't
imagine how psychologically debilitating it
is to only be able to get out of yourself
for a half an hour a day it just is
frightening that some of the conditions
that people are kept in and Marion is
particularly used to house political
prisoners so now what's what's your
definition of political prisoner
somebody who's in prison not for doing
any act of violence but basically because
of their beliefs many members of the
American Indian movement are are in
prison because they're political prisoners I
would consider even fiber optic to be a
political prisoner at this point because
he's locked up to set an example he's
locked up as a symbol he's locked up
because he is an idea he represents a
political idea of freedom of information and
so he's considered a threat just because of
what he believes not because of what he's
done I don't know if there's a specific
definition of political prisoners I
suppose Amnesty International would have
one and they consider many Americans to be
kept in prison for political reasons
that would be something if we could
actually get Amnesty International to
define Mark as a political prisoner I
would certainly change things for future
hacker cases probably make his life worse
it probably would yeah that's why I
would hesitate to even consider it but it
is a very interesting way to to deal
with this I guess in a way it's kind of
intuitive you know when someone is a
criminal when they should be kept away
from society and in cases like Mark and
the other person we spoke with it just
seems like you know it's it's a mistake
to to lock these people away I mean what
who is who is benefiting from this
certainly well this is where the people
benefiting from it now increasingly are
law enforcement and this is why I say
the the war on drugs is a growth industry
for law enforcement because through it
they've gotten access to the asset
forfeiture laws right now they pay for
their their trips to training camps in
Hawaii and they pay for their fancy sports
cards for all the officers and the and the
police stations and cable TV in the cop
shops and all these little goodies and
perks that are coming out of asset
forfeiture laws which is basically money
that they've shaken down from anybody
that's been accused not even convicted
of a of a drug conviction about drug
violation I mean and in fact there's some
somewhere of 80 percent of all asset
forfeitures are uncontested and never
result in the person going to jail for
the crime that they were accused of but
they never had their property returned
to them either so I think they're trying
to do the same thing with a lot of
computer cases because law enforcement
keeps a lot of the computer equipment in
fact hacker cases are a tremendous source
of computer equipment for law enforcement
we even intercepted a memo that said
something like there actually an article
in a district attorney magazine in
California that said prosecuting hackers
is fun and it's profitable I mean that
that is sick that that is how they look
upon this as profiting case in California
where they actually the Scott case where
they actually handed out an appraisal of
this guy's property at a pre-raid briefing
on before the cops went to his house and
they showed his property valued at two and a
half million dollars and they went in to
find drugs ended up shooting mr. Scott and
no drugs were ever found of course the
police have taken a big rap on the
knuckles for this but there's no doubt
that asset forfeiture was the motivation
behind the raid and behind what cost this
innocent person his life eventually and
this is this is really a very serious
problem that the 50 percent of the cook
county uh... law enforcement the cook
county sheriff's office and their law
enforcement in chicago fifty percent of
their employees are now involved in the
asset forfeiture unit of of the cook
county sheriff's division i mean a couple
of years ago they didn't even have one now
they have an asset forfeiture unit that's
divided into five divisions one for swiping
people's automobiles one for real estate one
for cash you know it just is uh... it's an
amazingly stunningly powerful law enforcement
tool and the frightening thing is some of
the abuses of this have caused the uh... the
supreme court to say you can't use it
excessively like you can't take somebody's
house if they're convicted of shoplifting but
the uh... the scary thing is the new crime bill that
just passed congress and was signed by the
president involves the expansion of asset
forfeiture to more than just drug crimes now
they want to go after white collar crimes
and use this tool and i i'll guarantee you
that hacking is one of those crimes that has
recently had the asset forfeiture provisions
beefed up on it so uh... you know people can
look forward to uh... seeing a new sort of
criminal justice in america where the the police
no longer have to
uh... ask for tax revenue in order to fund their
operations all they have to do is go out and
find unpopular wealthy citizens and rip off
whatever they got
and uh... and use that to support the police
department uh... let me just insert a programming
note here it's uh... currently eleven fifty eight the
program normally on this time uh... earthwatch with
robert knight uh... is will be on at midnight
uh... so stay tuned for that we're on for
about another twelve minutes or so and we are
asking for your support here at wbai
um... because uh... that's how we survive
by getting support from listeners like you and
if you like what you heard tonight or you know
i don't like what i heard tonight but i mean if
you were educated
and uh... enthralled as much as
as i was of course i might have to sit here
but the thing is if i was driving in my car i
probably wouldn't be getting out of my car to
do anything else because this is a really
fascinating discussion i think just hearing
about what's going on in prison and uh... and
how it all ties into uh... to freedom of
speech and publishing and everything like
that
um... so if you've done that you've gotten
something out of this and you can ensure
that we do things like this in the future
and cover the issues by pledging your
support to 212-279-3400
um... please do it now because we're only on
for a few more minutes and uh... it would be a
great way to uh... to show uh... fiber optic
uh... that there are a lot of people out
there that really care and are willing to
uh... show support for the station so that
when he comes back uh... uh... there'll be
uh... a place where he can speak out even
more and tell us what went on in there
those of you that pledged seventy five
dollars uh... will get a copy of the book
donated by Loompanics secrets of a
super hacker um... which uh... which mark has
not seen yet but uh... i'm sure he'll find
it interesting when he gets out uh... all kinds of uh...
uh... hacker secrets and uh... and things you
might have heard about uh... through other
other means as well uh... the hacker
ethic uh... the latest in technology cd-rom
databases what's out there passwords
access control and of course social
engineering so all of that uh... for a
pledge of seventy five dollars and
everybody that pledges uh... no matter
how how big or how small will get a
copy of the Loompanics catalog which
is basically a list of all the books
that Loompanics uh... publishes Loompanics
is probably um... the biggest uh...
distributor of such material in the
country would you say so
uh... yeah certainly yeah it's it's a
field that's not there's not a lot of
competition to distribute such weird or
offbeat uh... books but well you must
get a lot of opposition from various uh...
people that try and stop you right
yeah um... well actually not um... not
really very much uh... we've been
hassled fairly little by law enforcement
in fact i i i almost hate to say this on
your program but the number one buyers of
secrets of the super hacker have been
uh... corporations and governments
government agencies
they're trying to figure out how to
protect all those government computers
and uh... and i was stunned at the
amount of money uh... they're willing to
part with their twenty bucks uh...
uh... on those corporate credit cards
are at taxpayer expense so
uh... they have really scooped up a lot
of copies of this book
well i'm happy to say and i'm sure you
can probably tell by the static that
mark is back
uh... now by the way i have uh...
another person who i'd like you to
hear their plate
okay let's hear it
okay
this is live from prison
hello
hi who are we talking to
uh... ira
hi ira this is emmanuel and uh... we
have uh... steve over in washington
state uh... so what what are you in
for
uh... i was sentenced for uh...
eight counts uh... four counts of
money laundering and four counts of
drug conspiracy
and uh... what kind of drug
conspiracy are you talking about
uh... ecstasy
really
familiar with it
uh... yeah well uh... now as far as
how do you conspire with a drug
excuse me
how do you conspire with with ecstasy
well i was uh... some other people
got caught uh... selling some ecstasy
to the dea agents and so they
turned around and said that i was
the one who sold it to them
i see
so they tied me into drug
conspiracy
they didn't actually uh... catch me
with anything
uh-huh
how long are you in for
uh... well they gave me six and a
half years for money laundering and
uh... another uh... forty one months
for uh... the drug conspiracy
oh wow
that's that's that's really
uh... concurrently so i only have to
do uh... seventy eight months
oh man
seventy eight months
right
well how many years is that
six and a half
six and a half years at a place
like that
right
and mind you the money laundering
charge was for a total of two
thousand dollars
how do you launder two thousand
dollars i mean i really don't
know how to do that
folks should know that money
laundering can just be
kiting checks according to the
federal government nowadays i mean
you write a check and there's not
enough money to cover it
your account immediately that's
considered check fraud and
probably money
i thought that was considered
bouncing a check
well i think that's a different
charge
uh-huh
uh... i really uh... i really
think that that was a really shaky
charge that uh... i shouldn't have
been charged with
they considered it money laundering
because uh...
somebody sent me a western union
and uh... i sent it to my wife's
name because i wasn't going to be
in town
so they said i was trying to
disguise the proceeds
amazing
so uh...
well i mean even more so than
mark this seems like a case
where
i mean the sentence handed out
here just does not match
by any means a crime
i uh... i totally agree
i think it's a little ridiculous
uh... to give somebody such a long
time for such a minor offense
how long have you been in for
uh... actually i got here three
days before mark did so we've
almost been in exactly the same
time
so i'll be
i'm starting the second week of
my ninth month
are you getting uh...
getting visitors
getting mail
well sure
my uh... my wife is one of
these types that uh...
wouldn't go
let a week go by without seeing
me
she's been extremely supportive
so
uh...
i uh... i've been getting a lot
of visits from her and my
mother
uh... the mail has been
flowing in as well
can't say i'm as popular as
mark but i do get my fair
share
well do you want to give out
your your address as well
well it's the same one uh...
uh... vo box 670
right okay but your name is
going to be different
oh uh... heaps h-e-a-p-s
and the uh... the number is
three four three one four
oh five four
so you're from that same
oh five four court
right
okay and that's fpc school kill
s-c-h-u-y-l-k-i-double-l
unit one
vo box 670
minorsville pennsylvania
one seven nine five four
uh... now as far as as
actually being there
how do you consider the
place to be
well
um...
i don't really have too
much to uh... judge it by
this is really the first
time i've ever been locked
up in a federal prison
i mean i personally am the
type of person that makes
the best out of any
situation so i'm trying to
make the best i possibly
can out of it
uh... i the first thing i
can say right off the bat
is it's extremely
overcrowded
there's really not enough
places for the amount of
people that are here
um... you know to get
together a card game with
four guys you gotta like
run down and scrounge up
the nearest hallway and put
a table into it
other than that the facility is
uh... it's uh... outdoor uh...
activities it's just uh... not
really too much to do
education lacks and uh...
you don't have you don't have
golf uh... golf courses in
tennis courts now do you
not even close
there's any sort of thing for you
to be able to um... study or
take classes or or uh... do
something to pass the time
that might be more
constructive than making
furniture
what he's asking is are you
able to take any kind of
courses college courses or
things like that
well i'm currently enrolled in
the college program uh...
right now so yes you can
take them but uh... i don't
know if you're familiar that
they uh... they canceled the
pell grants supposedly so if
if that bill does go through
then i won't be able to
take any more courses
and is that the same crime
bill is that in the crime
bill
the infamous crime bill
well that was a very
popular subject here
oh boy
wow
now wouldn't wouldn't you
think that somebody like you
uh... would receive a lighter
sentence considering their
concerns over overcrowding
why give you such a heavy
sentence
i they they treat money
laundering very seriously
and uh... i believe that they
should really go back and
uh... give people the
sentences for money
laundering that really
deserve it
and you know a two thousand
dollar check that was
mailed to uh... somebody
else's name
shouldn't get such a
sentence
and uh...
now there's nothing illegal
about what you did is there
excuse me
there's nothing illegal about
sending the check to
somebody else is there it's
only because of the drug
thing that that was
considered laundering
well that's how they tied it
in first they convicted me of
the drug charge so therefore
there's no explanation for
the money outside of the
drug so
uh... that's how they
tied it in
oh
well
want people to know when
you say money laundering
they're thinking of this
heinous crime or some kind of
complicated scam or
something but you're just
talking about stuff that we
all do all the time
well actually there is a
second part of it
and the second part is that
uh...
they charge me with two more
counts
because they say that uh...
the people that sent me the
money had sold some drugs
to make the money
so they charge me also with
oh man
money from drug proceeds
and when i put the question
to them it's like
if i were to receive a check
from any individual am i
going to stop every single
person and say
um...
you didn't sell drugs to get
this money did you because
you did i really can't take
it
i mean i really don't think i
should be responsible for
knowing where the money
came from
this is unbelievable
unfortunately we're out of
time but uh... we want to
wish you the best of luck
over there what's the
earliest you can get out
um...
1999
oh boy
i hate myself
well i hope people think
about what we've heard
tonight uh...
as as they go about their
daily routines because
you know folks like you
really shouldn't be in
places like that
for amounts of time like
this
i think that way
okay is mark still there
uh... yeah hold on a
second
okay thanks good luck
all right bye bye
hey it's been very
enlightening emmanuel
oh yeah
almost too enlightening for
me
oh this is something
hi mark um
we're out of time but uh...
we're out of time too
yeah oh that's right
your system's gonna go
down isn't it
yeah
wow uh...
convenient isn't it
now if this show was on
at midnight we'd really be
uh... in bad shape
uh... well thanks for uh...
for sharing that with us
i mean that's something i
really you know hadn't been
thinking of
the plight of these people
yeah mark i'll send some
books there and hopefully
a couple of them will
make it through
great thanks a lot
yeah and share them
share them with the
people there
oh definitely
and uh... we'll be back
again next week hopefully
we'll hear from mark again
uh... as well
uh... and those of you
that want to write to mark
again the address
markabene
a-b-e-n-e-3-2-1-0-9-0-5-4
that's your new name
and uh... fpc school kill
unit one p.o box 670
minersville pennsylvania
one seven nine five four
okay and we want to thank
steve o'keefe from loom
panics for being with us
tonight
and again uh... i think
there's still some left
we're up to one thousand
three hundred forty two
dollars total pledges
which is very good and
i'm i'm very happy to see
that number thanks to
everybody who called in
uh... if there are any
left i think there are
some left
um... people can call in
now two one two two
seven nine three four
hundred and um...
we'll work it out for
you again anybody who
calls into pledge will
get a Loompanics catalog
which in itself is is worth
the pledge because uh...
you'll just be inspired
by all the different uh...
uh... titles there and
you'll you'll realize that
there is hope there there
is hope for intelligent
thinking people and uh...
and and different ideas
that maybe aren't allowed
in lots of places
so steve thank you very
much for for your
generosity oh we've lost
mark mark is gone
uh...
too bad i couldn't say
goodbye to him
well it really you know
sometimes these topics are
tough to talk about but at
the same time it's so much
more interesting than the
crap that you see on tv or
or some pre-digested
conversation so yeah i'll
tell you i'm i'm pretty
depressed right now after
going through all this but
uh... you know it's it's
worth it because we needed
this we really needed to
see what's what's going on
out there and uh... you
know hopefully uh... it'll
have a happy ending in the
end but uh... it's it's
going to be it's going to
be hard to get there
yeah well that's why people
need to support vehicles for
free speech like your
station and uh... you know
Loompanics and and just
people like fiber optic who
are victims of a political
process so okay again steve
thank you very much for
being a part of this we're
out of time and uh... we'll
be back again next week
okay thanks stay tuned for
robert knight this is wbai new
york
the telephone keeps ringing so i
ripped it off the wall i cut
myself off shaving now i can't
make a call
it couldn't be yet much
worse
but if they could they would
bum dilly bump but the best
expect will burst
i hope the sun is good
bum dilly bump
do you just say
do you know we are
talking about what time
over theemia
you know we are
watching that
blackjack下去
the
of
Thank you.
This is WBAI New York, listener broadcasting at 99.5 MHz FM.
My name is Robert Knight, inviting you to stay tuned for a new edition of Earthwatch in which we hack the invasion.
And in tonight's program, we'll be explaining to you exactly how President Clinton is going to use a military invasion
to overthrow the Haitian government of President Jean-Bertrand Aristide after these messages.
Listen, I wonder how many of you tonight are willing to wait till the midnight hour.
I wonder how many of you tonight feel that the midnight hour was the right time to wait.
Thank you.