Peter Paul, how you doing?
Hey, Jed, I'm doing all right.
Sitting here listening to WBAI, of course,
and this promo they have for the Night Flight Slow Jam
on Saturday, September 24th from noon to 5 p.m.
Man, what day did you say this is going to be?
That's Saturday, September 24th from noon to 5 p.m.
I know, I'll be listening.
That's right, me too.
The Night Flight Slow Jam on 99.5 FM, WBAI.
Limp over your shoulder.
You've found me.
Hello, who is it?
This is...
Poison guards!
Emily Ann, I love June Jones.
I know you do, Charles, because I am June Jones,
and you didn't even know it.
I did so.
What is Mr. Woburn, the old man we adopted
from the welfare department, doing on the ceiling, Emily Ann?
Oh, just trying out the new bottle of anti-gravity
that René Aubergineois gave him.
If René Aubergineois gives you a bottle of anti-gravity
for Labor Day,
it would be possible to enter the 11th dimension,
if for only an hour and a half.
This is Dr. Michio Kaku,
professor of theoretical nuclear physics.
Yes, you can now have an easy-to-complain to the FCC kit.
Listen to Poisoned Arts on WBAI,
Monday through Thursday on the morning show just before 7,
and in the afternoon just before Shelf Life at 4.
And it's a little bit after 10 o'clock here on WBAI in New York.
It's time for Off the Hook.
Hello, who is it?
The telephone keeps ringing,
so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving,
now I can't make a cough.
It couldn't get much worse,
but if they could, they would.
Bum, diddly, bum,
but the best, expect the worst.
I hope the thunder's good,
but diddly, bum!
We'll see you all.
We'll be right back.
Bye-bye.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Well, that's one of the numbers you can call, but 3400 is the number you're supposed to call.
But, you know, who cares?
As long as you get through to us, we're WBAI in New York.
And the program is off the hook.
This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
We're here every Wednesday night at this time.
And usually we're here for an hour.
Tonight we're here for two hours again.
But the upshot of that is that we are not here next week.
So adjust your calendars and schedules appropriately.
Finally, we're here once again to ask for your support.
And, of course, hopefully we'll be getting that support throughout these two hours.
That's the idea of us being on for two hours so that we can get all kinds of support for programs like this, for this particular program.
Every week we come here and we talk about high technology and the telephone system and how 9X is ripping everybody off sometimes, most of the time actually, or just being completely and totally inept and clottish and things like that.
And our listeners trade stories with us and experiences and things like that.
We're a bastion of information.
We're a place where people can spout off their various complaints, bits of information, that kind of thing.
So please be there for us when we need you to be there for us.
We'll get into that a little bit later on.
For now, let's see.
We have a couple of interesting stories.
We might be hearing from FiberOptik sometime during this program.
However, I have to say I kind of doubt it because last I heard he had run out of money, kind of like the radio station.
But in his particular case, he can only cash money orders once a week.
And that day has already gone.
We sent him a money order last week, but apparently didn't get to him in time.
So if he's unable to call this week, that's probably why.
He's got to pay inflated rates for phone calls.
For those of you that don't know, FiberOptik is someone who has been a part of this radio program for quite some time,
who's currently incarcerated in the prison state of Pennsylvania.
I understand they're putting that on the license plates now, the prison state.
I'm not kidding. You think I'm joking. No.
There are so many prisons in Pennsylvania, it's not funny.
It's totally ridiculous.
So he's incarcerated there until November 22nd, I understand, at which point he'll come back here
and hopefully have all kinds of interesting stories to tell us.
And the mood can change around here, too, from one of glum depression to foolish optimism like we used to have.
Okay, let's talk about a couple of items that are going on.
These are experiences that various people have had with phone companies.
And we've been getting this from various points on the Internet.
When you're on the Internet, you can find out virtually anything.
That's what we're constantly showing people.
And we're going to show you a couple of interesting things later on.
So this is something off a news group, and I believe this news group is, yes, alt.dcom.telecom
is the companion to comp.dcom.telecom, the Telecom Digest.
This one allows people to just post whatever experiences they have
without the messages having to be approved by anybody, which is really the way it should be.
Now, this person is from the Pacific Coast.
So, yes, it does not just happen here.
It happens everywhere.
I just ordered two lines from Pac Bell for my new apartment.
Pac Bell is their 9X.
Yes, it's their crutch or burden or cross.
That's what it is.
It's their cross hanging around their neck.
I showed up on move-in day and plugged in a telephone to the jack,
and it was one of the lines.
Remember, he ordered two lines.
I wired up the yellow and black to another jack and found nothing.
Fair enough.
I went outside to look for the NIJs.
Nowhere to be found.
Went back in.
Started following wires along the molding and finally found the NIJ for the working line
in a dusty crawl space, which was technically inside some other tenant storage space.
Only one line.
I followed it further.
It went to a tar-sealed pipe coming straight out of the ground.
So I called Pac Bell.
Where's my phone line, I asked.
It was installed yesterday.
But it's not here.
I mean, it's physically not here.
Sir, do you want us to send a repair technician to your house?
I don't care.
Send anyone you want.
I just want my phone line.
Okay, the first appointment we have is Monday afternoon.
Is that all right?
That's fine.
I won't be home, but you don't need to get inside.
It's just that there's no network interface.
That's NIJ, network interface jack there.
Okay, sir.
That will be a $75 visit charge plus our hourly rate of God knows what.
What?
You never installed my line.
I'm not paying you $75 on top of the $35 I already paid you to do just that.
My records show the installation was completed successfully yesterday.
The problem is in your wiring.
If you're not home and we need to access your wiring to fix it,
you will still have to pay the $75 visit charge.
But I don't have any wiring.
There's nothing to connect to.
It followed a bunch of pointless arguing in which she said she couldn't send anyone out
unless I authorized the $75 charge should they need to get in my house,
and I wasn't there, and I said I only wanted to authorize them to do outside work,
which they wouldn't accept.
But I ended up taking the afternoon off, which probably cost me about $75 anyway.
Finally, at the last minute, the guy came.
I explained the argument I'd had with the repair center op.
He opened the PT&T cover on the sidewalk, clipped on his butt set, and said,
It's working.
So, since it's your wiring, you're going to have to pay $75 anyway,
so I might as well come inside and have a look and try to fix it.
No way, I said.
I want you to show me the network interface.
He walked around the building a couple of times.
Finally, I had to show him the conduit where the other line rose from behind the garbage cans.
Hmm, he said, and went back to the sidewalk.
Finally, after about 45 minutes of tones and calls to the repair center and clipping and following wires,
he found my line.
And the tip was going to an empty apartment in my building.
The ring was going to the house next door.
I assume I won't get charged to $75.
I haven't seen my bill yet, but I'll fight to the death if they do.
But I think anyone who hadn't been reading alt.dcom.telecom
or wasn't as much of a pain in the ass as I am
would have gotten rooked out of plenty of money.
I can only imagine this sort of thing happens all the time.
At the end, of course, he tried to sell me the inside wiring maintenance plan.
Oh, yes.
So phone companies around the country are the same.
Make no doubt about that.
And in most places, there's only one of them.
But that's going to change.
Very soon, I think within the next couple of months,
we're going to have different choices to get local dial tones.
And, of course, we'll be talking about that right here on this program.
The only problem is, you know, some of the companies that are offering the different dial tones
are companies that are offering you cable TV, you know.
And then 9X and friends want to get involved with cable TV.
I mean, do you think that they're ready for this?
They can barely grasp the phone system.
And the cable companies, I don't know.
They don't seem too great with the cable.
So the two of them are going to be competing with each other.
I'd like to see some other entities get involved here, you know.
Like, I don't know, maybe the sanitation department or something could provide dial tones.
I mean, what's the worst thing that can happen?
It's already happened with 9X, so let's have some variety out there, you know.
Variety works with things like food and culture.
Why can't it work with local dial tones?
You know, you can have a different sounding dial tone.
You can have musical dial tones.
You can have voice recognition dial tones.
Each one representative of a different company.
I mean, it's not far-fetched.
If we want to compete like this, I think we ought to go for it.
Here's another story, this one having to do with 9X.
Yeah, okay.
This will sound familiar to a lot of people.
A week ago, I called up 9X with the goal of ordering a couple of additional telephone lines.
One thing that went better than I expected was that I asked for the lines to be provided
from a central office that was ISDN capable.
The idea being that later, if I wanted to, I could convert the lines to ISDN without having
to change the phone numbers.
At first, the clerk said,
IDSN, what's that?
Yeah, what do they do?
Practice this question in front of a mirror?
But later, she came back and said she had determined which exchanges would satisfy that requirement.
Two of the 30 or so exchanges in my central office are ISDN capable, the other 28 are not.
Then came the moment we were all waiting for, scheduling the installation.
She says,
So, we will come out September 20th, unless that is not convenient, in which case we will
come out September 21st.
This was some two weeks after the day that I was on the phone with the clerk.
Now, 9X does not reveal it anywhere in the telephone directory, or anywhere else, but a little-known
New York state law says that servers should generally be installed within five business
days.
The date the clerk was proposing was something like 10 business days, which, in my estimation,
is something like double.
Oh, and then the law also says that if the installation cannot be done within five business
days, then the phone company is obligated to tell you what your other choices are to
tide you over.
Seems to me they should issue a cellular phone at their expense during the intervening time.
Anyway, the clerk did not do any of the things required by law, did not commit to an installation
date, and did not tell me what my other choices were that could have tided me over.
Oh, and the law also says they have to commit to half-day appointments.
So if they ever say, we will be out between nine and five, this violates the law.
So, I completed the order which involved one of the two new lines hunting to the other.
Then I called up the president's helpline, 800-722-2300, said I was concerned that the law was not
being complied with.
What law, she asked.
I cited the section of the law.
She said she had no idea what I was talking about.
I told her to go read it and call me back.
She refused.
Finally, I faxed the law to her.
A few minutes later, she calls up and says, well, I suppose we have to try to install within five
business days.
I say, well, part of the problem was your clerk failing to commit to an installation within five
days, while the other problem was that your clerk failed to do the counseling required by law
regarding my alternative choices to tide me over.
Anyway, a little later, she calls back and says, it is now set for today, September 13th, in
the morning between eight and noon, today being five business days away from the day that they
talked on the phone.
I do find it kind of annoying that lots of other customers are being jerked around.
The only reason they finally committed to installing my service within the period set
by law was that I faxed the law to them.
I imagine most customers don't do this.
So today, I sit glued to my chair from eight to noon.
I certainly did not want to duck out and buy a paper, for example, only to return in one
minute to find a tag on the door saying, we are sorry we missed you when we called.
You guessed it.
Noon comes and nobody from the phone company.
So, I get on the horn and call up the president's helpline.
The woman there asks me to hold while she tries to round up a foreman in charge of the installation.
Fifteen minutes pass.
While holding that phone to my ear, I grab the phone on the fax machine and call up the
order service center, the people I called in the first place.
Eventually, I reach a supervisor.
With some difficulty, I extract the confession that the call was set for eight to noon and
that nobody came to see me.
The supervisor agrees to make somebody come by 5 p.m.
I had a court appearance in the afternoon and would not be back to around 5 p.m. in the
first place.
This guy's a lawyer.
I returned from court.
There was the damn hang tag.
The one that says, sorry, we missed you when we called.
Gosh darn it, double darn it.
I tried to call the number on the tag.
It says to call 3340500.
I dial it, get the long-winded recording, explaining that I have to call any of several
other numbers, depending on just what it is that I want, and explaining that this number
is not in service.
Yeah, 5 p.m. arrives.
Shock of shocks, the supervisor calls back.
Wants me not to worry.
Someone will really be coming by shortly.
He has just spoken with the installation foreman, and for sure the guy will be here real soon
now.
540.
The installer arrives.
Tries to lay a guilt trip on me for not being home at 4 p.m. when he left the tag.
I point out that if anyone was wronged, it was me for having to sit around for four
hours this morning.
I point out that he did not show up within the appointed time, but showed up four hours
late.
I point out that the phone number he put on the tag is out of service.
Anyway, he gets to work.
All I ordered was network interface jacks, so the installation will cost me the same modest
amount regardless of how long it takes to install.
Some work required in the apartment.
Some work required in the commercial space in the first floor and basement.
And some work in a room in the basement where the cable enters from the street.
It's all installed, so I plug in my handy-dandy polarity tester.
Sorry, both light up red.
Could he please correct the polarity, I ask.
He heads back to the basement.
He comes back up.
Now, one of the two new lines is correct polarity, while the other is now dead.
I finally catch on on how to deal with this.
I pull out some UHF walkie-talkies and suggest he take it with him to the basement.
When he thinks it's all fixed, he can call me in the walkie-talkie, and I'll let him know
what the polarity tester shows.
He gets both lines working in the basement, calls me.
I test both lines.
They test out good.
Returns to the scene.
Hands are shaking all around.
Estimated time, one and a half hours.
Then I sit down with a two-line phone to test the lines.
The hunting does not work.
That's not the installer's fault, of course.
It's a slip-up in the order service center or in the central office.
Presumably, it can be fixed with one phone call.
So, here are the problems with this particular order.
One, failure to offer installation within five days.
Two, failure to counsel me about the alternative since the phone company cannot install within
five days.
Three, failure to show up during promised four-hour time interval.
Four, writing disconnected number on call tag.
Five, wiring up lines with backwards polarity.
Six, failing to implement hunting.
Oh, and I suppose this installer was getting overtime pay for the time past 5 p.m.
I hate to see this allocated to regular business expense, namely charged to all rate payers.
It ought to come out of the money that would have gone to shareholder dividends.
Well, that's a story also pulled off the internet.
And that came from Carl Apidol.
And, unfortunately, that seems to be the rule rather than the exception.
I mean, I've dealt with 9x a number of occasions.
I know lots of people that have.
And I cannot find one person who says that, boy, you know, they do a speedy job.
They really get everything right.
They try so hard.
Whenever you order something, it seems they are going to get it wrong at some point somehow.
Unfortunately, that's just the way it always seems to be.
I've got something in the mail today from 9x concerning their voicemail system.
You know, they send you this pamphlet that this is answering machines.
It tells you how lousy answering machines are.
You know, they garble your messages.
You can lose the tape.
You can have it fall out a window or something.
It would be a shame that that happened, wouldn't it?
Well, get ready for a better way to get your messages than anything you've ever tried before
with Call Answering, new from 9x, the anytime, all-the-time service.
Call Answering takes messages around the clock.
When you're not home, when you're already on the phone, when you're just too damn busy
to answer, or even if the power's out.
There's nothing to break down or to repair because Call Answering works with any touch-tone
phone.
That is, assuming you pay the touch-tone fee.
Yeah.
Because you'll have trouble connecting if you don't.
You can get your messages from just about anywhere, and you don't even have to worry about turning
Call Answering off or on.
That means it works all the time, so you're always in touch.
Sign up for Call Answering today.
Take advantage of a terrific limited-time offer.
They're offering it for free, or free installation, as if installation really amounts to much.
I mean, you're not really charged installation when you plug in an answering machine, are you?
But the phone company manages to do it.
And, of course, there's that monthly fee, which very quickly, within a year, will exceed
any answering machine known to man.
And so you have to ask yourself, you want these guys handling your messages, too, storing
information and keeping it all on the computer somewhere?
Or would you rather have your messages designed for you, you know, your own private person
kept private, or as private as you want to keep it?
Remember the answering machine in sneakers, you know, that was used for many other things.
But you can keep an answering machine as private as you want, but with 9x, you can only put
in a four-digit password.
That's it.
There's a limited number of those around, and I'm sure it's pretty easy to get it out of
9x with a little social engineering.
Okay, we're going to do some engineering of our own.
Let's go to the Atlas.
You know, we've been doing a bit of work with phone companies ourselves, operators, that
kind of thing.
And I reached a conclusion.
I reached this conclusion only a couple of days ago.
Kind of startling.
The conclusion was that AT&T operators are getting nasty, you know?
They're getting downright offensive.
They don't want to, you know, really do all that much work.
They just want to connect you to things and get on to the next customer, you know?
And my other conclusion was that Sprint and MCI operators are a lot more friendly.
You know, it really kind of shocked me there to see this.
All right, so what we're going to do is we're going to try and find out some information
here.
We're going to see how capable they are at providing us with this information.
We're going to, first of all, access...
Should we do AT&T first?
Yeah, let's do AT&T first.
Carrier access code of 10288.
I think we have it on this particular line.
Now, what we're going to try and do here, in the upcoming issue of 2600, the autumn issue,
which just got to the printer only a few days ago, we have a guide to all the internet codes,
that is, domain codes that tell you the country that everything is allocated to.
In the United States, we don't really use that all that much.
We use .edu for educational institutions, .com for commercial entities, .gov for government
entities, .mil for military entities, and various other things like that.
Every other country, though, has to have a two-letter suffix added on to indicate the country that
they're in.
So the default is always the United States.
If you see .nl, that means Netherlands.
If you see .ar, that means Argentina, et cetera, et cetera.
Now, we were able to get a hold of the list of every single one of these codes, and a couple
of really interesting things are evident here.
And those interesting things are as follows.
Every single possible nation has been allocated an internet domain name.
And some of these places don't even have any people and don't have any phone service.
What do you think about that?
That's a pretty weird thing to have happen.
So what we're going to try and do is track down one of these islands in the Pacific.
Yeah.
Okay.
Let's go to an island called McDonald Island.
McDonald Island.
Now, that's somewhere in the South Pacific.
Okay.
And we know that their country code, according to the internet, is, let's see.
Where did it go?
McDonald Island.
Heard and McDonald Islands.
If you ever get an internet message with the suffix of .hm, that means that it came from
Heard and McDonald Islands.
Now, these are islands that you would never find, because they're very, very tiny.
And they're very uninhabited, too.
But they're technically owned and operated by Australia, except I don't think people in
Australia know they exist, either.
It's kind of a weird situation here.
Okay.
Let's see if we can get an AT&T operator.
See how helpful they can be.
They may very well be very helpful.
You never know.
Oh, it takes forever to get them, too.
AT&T.
To place a call, please dial the number that you are calling now.
Or for assistance, say operator now.
Operator, please.
Remember we used to dial O and get an operator?
Your response was not understood.
Oh, come on.
I said operator.
Please hold for operator assistance.
Oh, she heard me that time.
Great.
AT&T, how may I help you?
Hi, operator.
I need a country code.
I was hoping you could help me.
What country?
It's actually an island somewhere in the South Pacific.
It's called McDonald Island.
All right.
One moment.
Let me see what I have.
Thank you.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay, so where is it near?
Because I don't have anything from McDonald Island.
Well, I know it's in the South Pacific.
I think it's south of India, but it's technically owned by Australia.
So I'm not sure which country code I would use or if I use a different...
All right.
Let me see what Australia has.
Hold on.
Okay.
I'm trying to find it on my atlas here.
Okay.
Ah, there it is.
It's near Antarctica, too.
Okay.
Are you spelling it two words or one word, sir?
Uh, it's one word, M-C-D-O-N-A-L-D.
It might also be known as Herd Island.
There are two islands, Herd and McDonald Island.
Searching for McDonald Island.
Hey, that's just by Herd.
Hold on, please.
Okay.
Okay.
Is it possible to, um, to connect to an operator over there and ask them?
They ask her to fill my house.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay, I have here H-E-R-O-N, Island.
Actually, it's H-E-A-R-D.
H-A-R, what'd you say, H-A-R?
H-E-A-R-D, Herd, as in I heard you say that.
Okay, the only thing I have here is H-E-R-O-N and then Island.
Uh, no, that's not it.
That's different.
I don't have anything that's...
Uh, let me go to the operator in Australia.
Hold on.
Okay, thank you.
Wonderful.
Hear this.
Uh-oh.
Okay, just one moment.
Okay.
Searching for country code here.
I think you'll be coming to Telecom Australia.
Can I help you?
Yes, operator.
This is AT&T in New York.
Do you have an area code for McDonald Island?
McDonald Island.
Do you know where it is, where it'll be?
What area?
Uh, yes, it's, um, it's near Antarctica.
Oh, right.
Oh, yes, okay.
Hold on.
Thank you.
Wonderful place.
Well, I have a reverse charge from Terry Cooper at Trangy.
Go ahead.
Thank you.
Okay.
Okay.
We want McDonald Island, don't we?
Right.
All right.
Two, two, five.
All right.
Hang on.
We'll put it straight back.
Hmm.
Hmm.
Hmm.
This must be a pretty small place, eh?
It is, yes.
It's just, um...
To find the, um...
To find the, um...
McDonald Island.
But have you heard of it?
Uh...
Not actually, sir, but, um...
I had fun and going to Antarctica yesterday.
I'm not getting McDonald, though.
Really?
Hmm.
I'm showing you my atlas that Australia owns this island.
Yeah.
See, you don't know what base is on the island, do you?
See, it's...
I'm getting Antarctica.
But under the, um...
We've got to have a base name to be able to find it.
You don't know what...
Well, it's not Antarctica I'm looking for.
It's McDonald Island, which is...
McDonald Island, yeah.
It's near Antarctica.
It might also be known as Heard Island, H-E-A-R-D.
That's actually two different islands, but...
Yeah, okay.
I'm going to try it under Heard.
Right, I'll see you.
All right.
All right.
See if I can find out from the supervisor.
Just hold on to me.
Okay.
Maureen?
We got anything from McDonald Island in the Antarctica?
Or it could be Heard Island.
Yeah, they're the base stations.
I know I had problems yesterday about that, but apparently it's...
Yeah, it's owned by Australia, McDonald Island.
Can we have evidence?
It's in Antarctica?
Yeah.
It's in 18 and blah.
What did it go about?
Can you have a spaceship that com around those bases and that down there?
It's on Macquarie.
Okay.
Macquarie station.
Yeah, that's Macquarie Station.
Yeah, I had that yesterday.
But this is...
Yeah, this is Macdonald Island itself.
It could be known as Heard, yeah.
I'm sorry to cause so much confusion.
That's all right, that's all right.
I'm getting an area code for Macquarie Base in the Antarctica,
but nothing under Macdonald Island.
Supervisor's just going to find out for us.
Okay.
One moment, though, they're trying.
Okay, I appreciate it, thank you.
Yeah, thank you.
How many operators are online right now?
Two.
One in New York and one in Australia.
H-U-R-D, Heard?
H-U-R-D, Heard, is it?
No, it's H-E-A-R-D.
H-E-A-R-D.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hello?
Hello?
All right, and what is the number they want to call Peru?
Hang on.
What theory code?
One four.
Oh, no, what's the number they want to call in Australia?
Now, where is it in Australia?
In Sydney or Melbourne or where?
Can I ask what time it is over there?
Hi, yes, sir.
In New South Wales, in Australia, it's 20 to 1 p.m. in the afternoon.
Oh, so it's tomorrow afternoon already.
Right.
Yes, it is.
It's still last night over here.
What is it there?
It's about 20 to 11 at night.
Okay.
Hmm.
I don't really think it's going to help because we should have it.
The only thing we've got under Antarctica, though, is all the base stations.
We haven't got anything under any separate islands.
So you're not calling to a base or anything, right?
No, it's an island.
No, no, no.
I mean, are you calling to a private home, a business, what?
Well, I don't have a number yet.
I was just hoping to get the country code.
So I would be calling a private home, though.
A private home on McDonald Island?
Is it really?
I thought so.
I could be wrong.
But I'm looking at the map, and I do see McDonald Island on the map, and it says Australia in parentheses.
All right.
Okay.
And it's right in the Antarctica.
Oh, I haven't tried Antarctica, but I don't think it's part of Antarctica.
Yeah.
Okay.
Just hold on.
They're really putting a lot of effort into this, aren't they?
I'll call the line.
Yeah, okay.
The radio will be with you shortly.
Please hold the line.
An operator will be with you shortly.
Please hold the line.
An operator will be with you shortly.
Please hold the line.
An operator will be with you shortly.
Please hold the line.
An operator will be with you shortly.
Well, we're not going to spend any more time on that.
We're going to pass the phone on to somebody else, and if they get an answer, we'll pass it on.
But, you know, I don't think they will.
I don't think they will.
You might be coming up.
If you get a code, let me know.
But I kind of doubt it.
I do take it back, though.
AT&T was very helpful in that case.
But I'll tell you, we were trying a whole lot of countries over the past few days, countries that are very tiny, or you never heard of them before.
And I guess when you call many times in an hour, you get a full range of different operators.
And some of them, if they can't find it in their console, will immediately disconnect you and will be very sarcastic.
We did not get one in this particular case.
We've got a very helpful person who actually transferred us overseas, which is what the Sprint and MCI people did on every occasion.
So rather than go through all that, I'll just leave it at this, except to say that McDonald Island is, well, it's uninhabited.
And, in fact, it's a volcano.
But it is owned by Australia, and I was speaking the truth there, and they have an Internet domain of HM.
It's all true.
All right.
Enough of that.
Enough of that.
Sorry for all the time we spent on that.
But I imagine quite a few people out there got a kick out of hearing some Australian operators busy at work.
At one point, I heard someone pick up and say emergency line after some sort of weird ring out there.
I'm going to listen back to a tape and see what that was all about.
It used to be you could do that kind of thing all the time.
You could connect overseas to international operators and learn all kinds of neat things.
But these days, it's a rare exception.
Okay.
We have some information on MetroCards, right?
You have something for us?
Okay.
We have some scientific experimentation that's been going on over the past few days.
And Walter is here.
Hi.
How are you doing?
Now, you've been diligently working in a laboratory trying to figure out how to defeat the MetroCard system single-handedly.
Yeah.
We've got this whole lab dedicated to it.
Well, it's more like an entire building, actually, but there's no need to let everybody know that.
We've got a grant from the NSF, and the work is progressing, but we still haven't gotten anything.
Okay.
There are two things I think are important.
And there were basically two theories about how the information was encoded.
Some people thought it may actually be a magnetic stripe, though we couldn't demagnetize it.
Some people thought maybe that stripe was hiding a barcode or something like that.
And basically what I did, I took a helium-neon laser, which is the type of laser which is used to read barcodes, for instance, in a supermarket.
Where did you get a helium-neon laser?
I actually have one at home.
Okay.
You're a very strange person.
Well, one of my hobbies is holography, and that's what I use it for.
But I just happen to have one at home.
It's an 8-milliwatt laser, which is a fairly powerful laser, one that's more powerful than you'd see in a supermarket.
But basically I tried to see whether there was anything under that strip, anything that the laser would pick up that you couldn't see by holding it up to bright light.
And basically none of the laser light actually penetrates the card, and there's nothing I saw that gave me any indication that there was any information encoded that way on the card.
This is a fairly powerful laser.
I didn't see anything actually go through the card.
And there was nothing on the surface from looking at the reflection of the beam that I could see, you know, in terms of a barcode being underneath or anything.
And another thing I tried, since you really don't see a light beam when you pass the card through the reader, so the next thing I tried was infrared light.
And I had an infrared diode, and I wanted to see whether that could be transmitted through the card, you know, for instance, to pick up a barcode.
And that wasn't transmitted either, so as far as the theories about there being a barcode or some kind of information which is read by light on the card,
but I think that theory is probably going to end up being wrong, and I'm thinking maybe now it's some kind of high coercivity magnetic material as other people suggested at Hope.
My current project is, uh, one of the things about the magnetic stripe theory is that we couldn't erase it here with a bulk tape eraser,
and I tried repeatedly today to erase it again because I figured maybe there's some configuration of the fields that I have to get.
But the bulk tape eraser didn't work no matter how hard I tried.
Another thing I'm going to try, maybe if it's a really high coercivity material, which means it takes a large magnetic field to demagnetize it or magnetize it,
I'm going to try passing a very powerful sumerium cobalt magnet I have over it to see if I can erase it that way.
But, uh, so basically, um, I'm pretty sure it's not a barcode or anything else that's read with light,
and, uh, I'm going to be trying some things with the magnetic end of it.
How hard do you think it'll be to duplicate that?
To duplicate it?
Once we find out exactly what it is.
Um, well, once we find out, if it's a magnetic scheme, it probably won't be that difficult to, uh, duplicate,
but you might need a special reader-writer, um, which is non-standard.
Uh-huh.
Um, but I'm sure it can be fabricated somehow, eventually.
Okay. Well, thanks for stopping in and, uh, updating us on that.
Uh, if anybody has details, please write to us here at WBAI or call us up and let us know that way.
Um, okay, that's one of our ongoing projects, started at Hope, and, uh, is going on to, uh,
hopefully, uh, figure out the whole system and see if it's secure or not.
We're learning a little bit more every week.
Okay, speaking of learning, that's what this program is all about.
We, uh, we, we spend time learning about all kinds of different things, uh, week after week.
Some of it gets us somewhere, some of it doesn't.
But that's what the learning process is all about.
And that's what WBAI is all about.
That's why we ask you to, uh, help support us here in our time of need.
And this is our autumn time of need.
That's right, uh, three times a year we are in need, and this is one of them.
And this is the last, uh, program of Off the Hook you'll hear during the autumn fun drive,
so, um, this is the time to call up and show your support for Off the Hook.
Now, last week we offered, um, this book, Secrets of a Super Hacker,
which I'm holding in front of me here.
And, uh, we got rid of a lot of them, but we have six left, only six.
And any pledge of $75 or more, you will get a copy of this book,
Secrets of a Super Hacker, brand new, published in 1994,
along with a, uh, a Loom Panic's guide, a catalog,
which has, uh, uh, thousands of titles in it,
and, of course, the WBAI program guide for an entire year.
212-279-3400.
Take advantage of, uh, the last remaining copies of this book,
and, um, show your support for Off the Hook,
show your support for WBAI,
show your support for Freedom of Speech,
because that's, uh, that's something that is, is dying out.
It really is.
I want you to, um, to, uh, listen to part of this article,
which appeared in the New York Times.
Concerns this, uh, this guy, uh, part of the Super Highway Patrol.
Now, there's all kinds of people like this that are out there
that want to regulate, that want to control,
that want to put a, put a, a stop on Freedom of Speech here.
And, uh, Sergeant Jim McMahon is one of these people.
Uh, he's an 18-and-a-half-year veteran
of the San Jose, California Police Department.
He heads a four-person high-tech crime unit
responsible for investigating computer crimes
in the heart of Silicon Valley.
Uh, the unit investigates thefts of computer, uh,
computer components and trade secrets,
hackers and crackers, cellular phone fraud,
distribution of pornography over electronic networks,
even murder.
I don't know how they do that, but, uh, they, they fit that in, too.
Um, one thing he does come up with a good answer for,
why don't you disclose where or when...
What would you advise?
Did we get a country code?
Okay, we didn't.
We totally wasted operators' time in, in, in many different countries.
Yes?
Uh, I'd just like to say something about the, uh,
pathetic incompetence of these operators
and this insane restrictions which they have.
Not only were they unable to do anything in the 15 minutes
that we were on the phone with them,
but also they had to hang up the trunk line
and then call Australia back
because of some insane restriction
where they can't be on the phone.
So all progress that we made in that 15 minutes
was completely destroyed.
Really?
And had to start over from scratch.
I just got bored of it
and told them,
thank you very much.
They were useless.
Hmm.
So...
Some sort of a restriction on, on, on hanging onto lines.
Well...
I have no idea.
That's something we'll have to look into.
Did, uh,
did we get connected back to the same people again
or did we have to start from scratch?
We got the same people.
We got different people who didn't know anything.
That's too bad.
Well, we've had the opportunity to waste even more people's time,
but, uh, there's a time when you have to cut off these things.
And it used to be you could do this.
You could stay on the phone for a long period of time.
And I know they don't like to do that,
but, uh, sometimes you really need to find something out,
you know, and it's good to have someone there
who will, who will help you.
Um, but yeah, it's interesting.
I thought they were nice operators, though,
for the most part.
The people were pretty, uh, pretty helpful.
Anyway, to get back to this, this guy here, Jim McMahon, um,
he's, his big thing is child pornography on the net.
I mean, that's, that's like what the internet is becoming known for
because, uh, people like, uh, Dateline NBC and Geraldo
focus on that and, and, and bomb-making people.
And, of course, that's all you can use computers for
is distributing bomb-making material and child pornography.
Uh, anyway, he advises this.
I would no more drop my kid off on the internet
than I would drop my kid off at midnight
in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco.
How's that for an analogy?
In my home, if children are logging on to an outside network,
either my wife or I are right there next to them.
Oh, what a comforting thought that is.
We guide them as to what they watch on TV,
what books they read.
This is no different.
I see a lot of parents abdicating this responsibility.
They think their kid is safe.
It couldn't be farther from the truth.
Well, needless to say, it goes on from, from, from this.
Uh, how well equipped are laws to deal with the computer age?
Well, the laws we're dealing with are from 500 years of tort law
about whose chicken is whose.
But we're talking about the ones and zeros in a place called cyberspace.
Uh, you're not seeing a lot of personal agony,
but you're just as ripped off if somebody steals $20,000 electronically
as you would be if somebody stuck a gun to your head.
You know, I don't think so.
I don't think so.
Because all someone has to do to steal $20,000,
and this person's definition is copy word perfect a few times.
Uh, whereas you put a gun to somebody's head,
it's a bit more traumatic even if no theft is involved.
So I think it's really, uh, kind of dangerous to make that assumption.
So, that's what we're dealing with here,
and that's what we're asking you to help, help fight
by calling 212-279-3400, uh, strike a chord for freedom of speech,
because that's what we're all about.
We're about, um, getting the word out
and, uh, showing people what's out there,
demonstrating things live for you on the radio.
212-279-3400.
Remember, everybody who calls in
will get a free copy of the Lumpanix catalog sent to them.
Um, and everybody who calls in with a $75 pledge,
uh, will get a free copy of Secrets of a Super Hacker.
Written by the Nightmare.
Here's a little excerpt from it.
Hacker Security.
How to keep from getting caught.
Hacking is fun.
Hell, it's exhilarating.
But it's also illegal, sometimes immoral, and usually punishable.
Even if what you're doing is perfectly innocent,
you'll be hard-pressed to find an acceptable excuse for it in court.
The very least that might happen is
the security holes you utilize the first time around
might get patched up.
More serious punishments inflicted by the courts
can include community service, fines, and even prison,
as we've seen, as we've seen with, uh, the case of fiber optic.
Informal punishments include
the unofficial destruction of your equipment
by law enforcement, uh, officers
and being blacklisted from tech-related jobs.
Consequently, the prudent hacker has two goals in mind while hacking.
Number one, don't get caught.
Number two, if you do get caught, don't make it count.
This chapter will present strategies
the careful hacker will follow
to ensure both situations are true.
This is, uh, good reading material to have.
Whether or not you agree with it,
there's some things in here I would take exception to,
some things that I would think are very good advice.
It's a good book to have.
A good, uh, handbook.
A good period piece, if you will,
uh, for those of you interested in the world of hacking.
This is, uh, kind of a guide to it all,
what has been discovered,
how you can discover more things,
social engineering, uh, default passwords,
interesting phone numbers,
um, the moral philosophies of hackers,
hacker ethic, borderline hacking,
the history of hacking, um,
reverse social engineering, all that kind of thing.
212-279-3400.
Show your support for this radio station
and for Off the Hook.
Uh, pledge of $75, you'll get this book sent to you.
And, uh, you'll learn all kinds of neat things.
You'll learn all kinds of things
in addition to, uh,
what you learn on this radio program.
If you have learned something on this radio program,
please show your support now
so we can continue to bring you new things in the future.
We have some things in store for you that, uh,
well, they kind of make everything we've done up till now
shrink by comparison.
I'm not kidding.
I'm not trying to, uh,
to make things seem better than they are.
We've got, uh, one project we're working on
which we'll probably,
we'll probably have something in two weeks
that threatens to be a scandal of,
of, of sorts that we've never had before.
Um, and the reason we can do this is because,
well, we can, we can spend time on the phone
sometimes wasting operators' time,
but, uh, other times we get some information
that we're not supposed to get.
We're really not supposed to get it,
but it's information that concerns us
and concerns you.
Uh, that's, uh,
sort of what hacking is all about.
It's, it's getting into, uh,
into places that you're really
not supposed to get into
and telling people what you find
once you get in there
because everyone's kind of curious
as to, uh, what's being kept on them.
We all have files on us
and, uh, a lot of us don't realize this.
A lot of us have never given permission
for our names to be, uh, put on file.
Um, the phone companies,
they want our social security numbers now.
You know, that's not right.
What do they need our social security numbers for
so they can access our bank accounts
and see how much money we have?
Everything is being tied together.
Everything is being united
and, uh, and, and brought into
one particular format of, of,
of files and databases.
It's a very scary thing.
It's a very scary thing to have.
Please give us a call.
212-279-3400.
Okay, we have, we have FiberOptik
who has just, uh, contacted us.
Fiber, are you there?
I, I made it.
I was worried I was going to miss it completely.
Well, I was worried you ran out of money.
Oh, no, no.
You, you got money now?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Oh, good.
Okay, that's, that's nice to know
because I, I had heard that you ran out
or were about to run out.
Um, okay, so our, our little money
already came in okay, right?
Oh, yeah.
Great.
Uh, we're on for two hours again tonight.
What's that?
We're on for two hours again tonight,
so, uh, you do have more than five minutes.
Oh, wonderful.
Yeah, so, uh,
I'll tell you,
last week's show really left me feeling depressed,
uh, because we, we heard from all these
different people in prison,
um, and it was, uh, a very sobering, uh,
sobering thought there,
thinking of these people being locked away
for various, uh, infractions,
such as, you know, writing checks in,
in the wrong way, or, uh...
Mundane things that people don't even think about.
Yeah, uh, I mean, using, uh, ecstasy or something,
or selling ecstasy, or various things like that,
uh, that, you know,
while, while they may be illegals,
do you really want to lock somebody up
for a number of years,
and, and keep them out of society,
and, and really destroy their lives,
uh, and, and the lives of all the people
that, that know these people.
Uh, it's, um, you know,
we never really thought about this before,
not quite like this,
and having you involved now,
it sort of opens us up to a whole other world
that, uh, we were kind of unaware of.
Um, what's new with you?
What's been happening over the last week?
Uh, let me think.
Well, to tell you the truth,
it's, it's been pretty uneventful,
but, um, just, just to give people
a little taste of, uh, of,
of everyday privacy,
um, tonight we had, uh,
what's, what's known as a bed book count,
and, uh, if anyone's on a way,
or periodically during the day,
every few hours or so,
there's a count, a head count,
and, um, the only time that it's, uh,
really an official count is at 4.15,
where we have to actually be in our cube,
standing up,
and, uh, it's like the main count of the day
or something that I guess gets reported
to Washington or something or other,
but there's other, uh, census counts and things
at other points during the day,
and, uh, every night there's a 9 o'clock count.
Well, it just so happens
that they decided that they were going to make
tonight's 9 o'clock count
a bed book count,
which is sort of like, um,
something that they do, I guess, uh,
just every so often,
you know, like as a drill maybe,
you know, like a surprise count or something.
And, uh, they call it a bed book count
because they actually get out the, uh,
the roll books with,
that have, uh, everyone's picture,
everyone's mugshot,
and, uh, and, and number,
and name, and all that business.
And they make everybody, uh,
line up in their cube,
and they go around,
and they tell you to say your name
and your number.
But the ironic thing
that's really, really stupid
is that in everyone's cube,
at, at the opening of the cube,
there's two name tags.
And the two name tags say
both people's name
and serial number.
So, you know, like,
what's the point
of saying your name and number
when you could have just
read it off the wall?
I, I guess.
It seems kind of strange.
What, what, what is the point of this?
The point of this is kind of like, uh,
as, um,
I, I guess they're like
to catch people off guard or something.
I don't know.
If somebody was,
was thinking of, uh,
escaping or leaving or whatever.
I, I, I don't really,
I mean, I don't really
completely understand
the logic behind it.
Well, you've been hard pressed
to figure out the logic
behind a lot of things.
I've pretty much given up
trying to figure out the logic.
Yeah.
So, uh, I guess nothing else
really has happened this week,
has it?
No, no.
That was probably
the most exciting thing
because I just happened
to be in the shower.
Uh-huh.
And, uh,
they came in
and called the bed book count
and I had to, uh,
interrupt my shower prematurely.
Uh-huh.
And I'll walk out something wet
and, uh,
Uh-huh.
You know, read off my,
my name and, uh,
registration number
and then go back to the shower.
Do these counts ever, uh,
go wrong?
Do they ever...
I'm...
We joke about it all the time.
These people are incapable
of counting.
Are you sure you should be
saying things like that
on the phone
about, uh,
your captors there?
Well, it's the truth.
I mean, uh,
it's ridiculous
to even think about.
But, you know,
they have trouble
counting heads.
Well, that's, uh,
you know,
when I was there
visiting you, uh,
last time,
uh, they were counting us.
They were counting visitors, too.
I don't know quite
why they were doing that.
Really?
Yeah, they were counting
everything inside, in fact.
Yeah.
Chairs, uh,
light fixtures,
you name it.
I guess they were practicing.
Um, but, um,
boy, that's something.
So, uh,
what are we down to?
Eight weeks now?
Uh, just about, yeah.
It's just, uh,
it's gonna be, uh,
what's today's date?
The 21st?
21st.
Yeah, it'll be
two months tomorrow.
Uh-huh.
I get out, uh,
November 22nd.
Okay.
And, uh,
as you said last week,
your first radio show
will be November 23rd.
Right?
That's right.
Okay, so that's, uh,
that's something
I look forward to.
Well, as you know,
we're in the middle
of one of our fundraisers
again.
And, uh,
sorry to have to
subject you to this.
Uh, sorry to have to
subject everybody to this,
actually, but it's,
it's necessary.
You know, it's something
that, uh, we have to do
to, uh, survive here
so that we can keep
bringing you, um,
uh, news and information.
One of the biggest bits
of news information
over the last year,
of course, has been,
uh, Mark's case.
Uh, you know,
we've been doing this
for a long time,
haven't we?
How long has this case
been, uh, been happening
for?
Uh, like, all the legal
stuff combined?
Yeah.
Uh, the past four years.
Four years.
So pretty much that
whole time, we've been
updating people as to
what's been going on,
and, uh, I guess
everyone listening,
who's been listening
for that long period
of time has, has kind
of lived it out, too.
Although, you know,
the person that has
to really suffer, uh,
we're all aware,
and we all kind of feel
the pain when, uh,
when, when bad things
happen like this.
Um, so that's something
to consider, those of you
out there that have not
yet called us to, uh,
to support the radio
station, uh, that's,
uh, something that, um,
is valuable, being able
to follow something like
this, being able to
learn and experience it.
Um, I mean, Mark, it
probably would have made
a, a big difference if,
uh, people weren't able
to, to hear about what
was going on, right?
Yeah.
I just want to take a
moment also to, uh,
thank a lot of the
people that are listeners
that have been writing
me and, and making, uh,
donations.
I, I really appreciate
it a lot.
It does make a big
difference knowing
people are out there.
Oh, yeah, definitely.
I mean, you know, it's,
I kind of wish we didn't
have to do this now
because, you know,
even though we, we have
to ask for money, what's
going, what you're going
through is, is by far,
uh, um, worse than,
than what we're going
through here.
We simply need to, uh,
you know, to raise funds
to keep operating, but, uh,
you need to hear from
people just to know
that there's an outside
world.
Yeah.
And it's, uh, you
know, uh, again, I wish
we didn't have to do
this now, but it's, it
is necessary.
So again, the phone
number is 212-279-3400.
Um, I don't know if
there are any left, any,
any books, secrets of a
super hacker left, but,
uh, if there are, I
better call soon.
$75 pledge.
We'll get you that.
Um, everybody who calls
in and pledges any
amount will get, uh, the
loom panics catalog,
which is, uh, something
that people fight over.
Yes.
The last 2600 meeting
we had injuries from
people diving for the
box that had the loom
panics catalogs in it.
We had a bunch, uh,
left over from hope
and, uh, we were
giving them away.
So you can avoid
injury and call in now
212-279-3400 to make
a pledge and show
your support.
We're up to 525 bucks
for the show and, uh,
we kind of like to hit
a thousand before we're
out of here tonight,
which, uh, is in
another hour.
So please, if you're
out there, um, give us
a call.
212-279-3400.
Um, and if we see the
phone lines light up,
we won't have to beg as
much and we can talk
to Mark more because
Mark is paying for
this, uh, as we, um,
as we speak to him.
Uh, will you ever
figure out what the,
uh, what the minute
rate is?
Uh, yeah, it's, it's
roughly about, uh,
23 cents a minute, I
think.
23 cents a minute.
And that's, uh, that
doesn't go down at
night?
No, no.
There are absolutely no
discounts whatsoever.
It varies depending
where we call, but if I
remember, I think it was
about 23 cents to New
York City.
Wow.
So, uh, that's, uh,
that's one way they're,
uh, they're, uh,
ripping off prisoners and
their families.
Making here.
Yeah.
Uh, and of course
they, they force you to
buy certain other
things at, at inflated
prices too, right?
Yeah, certain things.
Other things are worth
the price.
Mm-hmm.
You know, then there's
things that, that
aren't.
Yeah.
Wow.
Uh, so, um, I guess,
uh, I'm not sure if
there's anything else that,
uh, I can really think
to ask.
Anything else you want
to pass along to people?
Uh, messages?
Actually, I just remembered
there were a couple of
interesting things that
did happen this past
week.
Again, we have two calls
on the line.
Thank you very much.
212-279-3400.
Please add to those
calls.
Yes, Mark.
Um, on Monday, I, uh,
did an interview with
Details Magazine.
Okay.
And, uh, it was fun.
It's always fun when
somebody from the outside
comes up and it's not,
you know, a pre-rehearsed
visit.
Right.
Well, the thing with
press people, and if
there are press people
out there, you can get
clearance to visit the
prison during the week.
The rest of us can only
visit on the weekends,
and of course, we have to
be approved through a
lengthy process, uh, but
press people can get
special clearance, and I
guess you're really one of
the few people over there
that gets interviewed in
the first place, right?
It really kind of
brightens your week.
Yeah, well, right now,
I'm the only person I know
of that's, uh, been
doing interviews lately.
Uh-huh.
Uh, months ago, there
was a local politician
who was here.
Uh-huh.
Did that make things any
better, having a local
politician?
Uh, not particularly,
no.
Uh-huh.
Four calls on the line.
This is great.
Uh, three more to a
bingo.
212-279-3400.
Um, so, uh, you were
telling us.
Yeah, um, the interview
was lots of fun.
Interviews usually are,
but, uh, this particular
one was fun because, uh,
I, uh, really got the
impression that the
person was understanding
what I was talking about,
which, uh, isn't always
the case.
Lots of times, uh, press
people just don't get it.
They just don't understand
the issues.
Uh-huh.
Yeah, well, we've
certainly had our share
of that.
Uh, lots of press
people don't seem to
understand things.
Witness the, uh, uh,
Philadelphia Free Press,
was it?
Oh, no, uh,
Philadelphia City Paper.
City Paper.
I'm sorry.
I have mixed up with
something else.
Uh, yeah, the City Paper.
Boy, what a, what a number
they did on you.
Yeah.
Um, and CNN, of course,
they did a pretty lousy
job.
Yeah.
With, uh, that science
report.
Um, but, uh, then, then we
have some good pieces, like
the Daily News piece
wasn't bad.
Oh, definitely.
So, uh, we can, we can
hope that, uh, other
things will be, um,
happening in the future.
Um, we, we say this
virtually every time, but,
uh, bears repeating, but
some of the things you're
looking forward to, some
of the things that we
might take for granted
out here in the real
world.
I know, I know food is
one of them.
Um, just, uh, spending
time with friends.
Yeah.
Having real privacy.
There's absolutely no
privacy here whatsoever.
Uh-huh.
Can't just go for a walk
in the, in the woods or
something.
Well, if you do, you
can't go very far.
And if you do go very
far, uh, it's called
escaping.
Uh-huh.
Now, I mean, escaping is,
uh, do you have to jump
over a fence or do you
just walk past the
boundary?
There's no fences here.
It'd be considered
walking off, but it's
still escaping.
Uh-huh.
Has anybody ever walked
off?
Oh, yeah.
Since I've been here, a
number of people have,
uh, left.
But they've always been
brought back?
No, actually, um, I'm,
I'm thinking back now.
There's three people that
I can remember that, uh,
that have escaped.
And, uh, one was fairly
recent.
And, uh, I think the word
was that, uh, he self-
surrendered or something,
turned himself in.
But there was one last
winner, which, uh, I think
one of the people, uh,
went back, they were an
illegal alien.
I think they went back to
their country on their own
or something to that
effect.
You mean they walked out of
the prison and went all the
way to their country?
Well, I don't think they
walked it.
Well, no, but, uh, it just
seems kind of amazing that
they would actually be able
to get that far.
Yeah.
I mean, I have enough
trouble getting into this
country, and I live here.
Imagine someone being able
to leave this country being a
prisoner.
Well, you know, then again,
if it's true, if it's to be
believed.
Yeah, I mean, how do you
find out?
Who's gonna tell you?
You don't know.
You're just relying on what
other people say.
All you know for sure is
that they did leave.
Are there lots of rumors
going around all the time?
Oh, yeah, sure.
Like, uh, what's the
craziest rumor you've heard
that turned out to be
unfounded?
Um, well, when you say
the word crazy, it's hard
to relate, because, uh,
to an outsider, everything
would probably seem crazy.
That's certainly true.
So when you say crazy,
nothing particularly
comes to mind.
Well, do you have, do you
get rumors about the
outside world, about things
going on here, like, you
know, the United States is
now a communist dictatorship,
or things like that?
Oh, it's funny.
I mentioned something to
that effect today when, uh,
we heard that, uh, I
don't know if this is
true or not, but is it
true that we invaded Haiti
or something or other?
Okay, I can, I can fill
you in there.
Um, actually, I guess I'm
filling in the whole
prison here.
Uh, we, we, yeah, we
sort of invaded, uh,
Haiti, but, um, the,
the military leaders
agreed to step down, so
we're sort of coming in
as honored guests, and
we're kind of occupying
the whole nation, but
we're not shooting
anybody, but, uh, we're
warning them to behave
themselves.
Yeah.
And, uh, you know, I,
I guess, um, I guess,
uh, Clinton, well, uh,
former President Carter
and, uh, Sam Nunn and
and Colin Powell all went
over to Haiti and, and
arranged this last-minute,
uh, um, negotiation where
the, the generals can
actually stay on the
island, uh, but they
really should leave.
They know it's good for
them.
I see.
And, um, Aristide is not
too pleased with the, uh,
with the settlement, but
he did say thanks today.
That's really all I know.
Oh, that's more than we
knew.
Okay.
Well, don't you guys get
TV over there?
Oh, yeah, sure.
But, uh, I, I think I
talked to probably the one
person that, uh, watches
the news, at least, uh,
when he gets a chance.
Uh-huh.
You know, there's very
few people watch the
news, and, uh, it's
really difficult to see
any normal television
because most of the time
the only thing that you
see is a movie on HBO
or sports are really the
only two things that
anyone watches.
Escapist fare.
I guess that's what
people, uh, need in
prisons.
What's that?
Escapist fare.
Uh, no pun intended,
but that's, uh, that's
what people, I guess,
like to watch, right?
Things to, to get them
miles away from where
they currently are, and
then watching the news
probably would be
depressing.
Yeah.
Uh, so when I, uh, when I
heard today that, uh, something
to the effect that we
invaded Haiti, I said, oh,
really?
I said, yeah, two days
ago.
Uh, yeah, well, I mean,
we've been there for, for
about two days now.
Yeah.
Oh, that was the magic
click.
Oh, we didn't hear it.
Uh, okay, are you gonna be
able to call back?
Uh, not immediately, but I
will wait around.
Okay.
Um, again, 212-279-3400.
Uh, Mark, maybe coming
from you, it'll, it'll
carry more weight.
Uh, 212-279-3400.
Well, yeah, but say
something, like, tell
people to call.
I don't know.
Um, well, uh, before I
get cut off.
Yeah, call before he gets
cut off.
Yeah, call before I get
cut off.
There you go.
Wait, we can make this
dramatic, all right?
Speak and tell people to
call in as you get cut off,
and we'll say that it
could happen to BAI if
they don't call in.
Okay.
Uh, we, we have to
time this just right,
but, uh, try to call
before I get cut off.
Because.
Oh.
Okay.
Okay.
Bravo.
Uh, he didn't plan that.
That really happened.
Uh, yes, we could get
cut off exactly the same
way, but no, not quite.
Not quite.
Not to make a serious
situation comical.
Although, it's good to
make a serious situation
comical, I suppose.
Uh, 212-279-3400.
Um, show your support
for WBA.
I remember, uh, not
many other radio stations,
bring you this kind of
thing.
Um, not many other
radio stations care.
I mean, last week we had,
what was it, two other
prisoners get on the phone
from, from, uh, where
Mark is staying and tell
their story.
No one ever really
listened before.
No one ever really
cared enough to ask what
their story was.
And here we are
broadcasting it to all
of Manhattan, uh, New
Jersey, Connecticut,
Long Island, all those
places.
So, um, if you got
something out of that,
please, uh, show your
support.
Keep this radio station
going.
212-279-3400 is our
phone number.
Uh, I'm going to find
out if there's any more
of those books left.
But anyone who calls in
will get the, uh,
Loon Panics catalog,
which is, uh, a guide to
all kinds of alternative
thought and, uh, and
creative things.
And you'll just be
supporting the radio
station, keeping
programs like Off the
Hook on the air.
212-279-3400.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
What's his answer?
Get away, get away, get away
Get away, get away
Ah, yes, we love to steal your money.
I guess that's probably not the best song to play during a pledge drive, but that's The Clash with Robert Dubb, the unedited version from Super Black Market Clash.
Yes, we do need your money, but we're certainly not going to steal it.
We're going to use it.
We're going to use it to make things work around here and get people to do quality radio programs.
Get the information out there.
Let me just ask a favor, though, for those of you out there that are calling.
Please don't call the bottom lines because those are the lines that Mark calls in on, and there's no way for him to get through if they're tied up.
So we're not taking phone calls this week because we have to use those lines which he comes in on.
So please, if you're calling on those lines, hang up now because we're not going to be taking those calls, and it's only going to tie up the lines, the incoming lines.
Thank you very much.
Let's see.
Next week.
Next week we won't be on, but the week after that is when we'll be on, and we'll have a regular normal show where we take phone calls,
and we have a major scandal that we're going to be releasing to people, as we always do.
But this one is a really big one.
Take my word for it.
That's in two weeks coming up on Off the Hook from 10 to 11.
You'll notice that it's after 11 o'clock now.
We're still on the air.
Why is that?
Well, it's a special week.
It's fundraising, and we're on for two hours.
We're on until midnight because we know there's people out there that care, care enough to call us up,
so we're on for an extended long period of time.
So even though we're begging for money, even though we're bearing our souls here,
we still are bringing you more than we usually do because we're on twice the amount of time, you know?
It's not fun.
I've got to tell you, it's not fun begging for money.
I mean, have you ever had to beg for money?
Have you ever had to sit down in the street and ask people passing by for money?
You know, it's a totally different thing, obviously, having to beg for money to live.
But in the world of radio, WBAI is the radio station that's out there on the street asking you if you can spare any change
because that's exactly—I mean, there are those of you out there, you're on your way to what?
K-Rock?
You're on your way to Q104, to Light FM, and to Country 103, and all those crazy places.
Great, all right?
But you're passing us by on the way, all right?
And stop for a few minutes, say hello to us, listen to what we have to say, because there's something to learn.
There's something to learn from the voices you hear on this radio station.
And without support, this radio station will fade, and you'll be losing a very important voice.
We're lucky to have a voice like this in the city.
And we need to hear from people like you.
212-279-3400.
We're out there.
We don't take commercials.
And we don't take corporate monies of any sort.
And we don't allow ourselves to be dissuaded by corporate arguments.
I mean, imagine what we did before with AT&T.
Yeah, we wasted a lot of their time, and sometimes that happens.
But imagine if AT&T was one of our sponsors.
Imagine if 9X was one of our sponsors, and things we were saying about them before.
I mean, we were really getting pretty nasty there.
But these are things that people need to say.
They need to vent.
They need to be able to speak their minds and share their experiences.
And sometimes there'll be disagreements.
People will say, well, that's not right.
And they'll even prove that it's not right.
But sometimes it will be right.
Either way, the dialogue is what's important.
The fact that we're out there, we're speaking these things, you know, you can listen to WBAI over a 24-hour period, and I guarantee you there'll be something that will make you want to never listen to it again.
Because people violently disagree with things they hear on the air.
People don't like certain kinds of programming.
But at the same time, there will be things that you will hear that will make you think in a way you would never have thought ordinarily.
And nor the radio station in this city can bring you things like that in the same way.
I mean, we don't play all the hits.
We don't play, you know, music and commercial things, repetitive things that are heard all the time.
We don't do that kind of thing.
You know, there's people calling on those lines again.
And I asked nicely before, please don't call those lines because Denmark cannot get through.
So, please don't call the bottom lines.
All right, I'll give you the number not to call, all right, in case you don't know you're calling that number.
Please don't call 212-279-3407 because if you call that line, you're tying up the lines that Mark can come in on.
So, please, if you're calling those lines now, hang up.
Okay.
One person has hung up.
Thank you for those of you that have hung up.
Two more people need to hang up.
I can't believe I'm saying it this way, but it's true.
Two more people need to hang up on those lines so Mark can get through.
Otherwise, you're kind of silencing a voice there, and that's not a good thing to do.
If you want to do something good, please call 212-279-3400.
That's our pledge line.
That's the line that we need to hear from you on to show support for the radio station and to keep things going as best we can.
I think the books are gone.
I think the books are gone.
But if you call in, 212-279-3400, there are all kinds of other things that we're offering.
The list is too big for me to go through it now, but if you ask some of our volunteers down there, I'm sure they'll be happy to help you.
We're up to $745.
We do need to break $1,000, so we need a few more callers to call in.
212-279-3400.
You can be one of these callers.
Please give us a call.
212-279-3400.
We still have one person that's not hanging up.
You know, it's kind of annoying.
Please hang up that line.
That's, uh, that's basically you'll, you'll rob us of the opportunity to hear Mark and that's not, uh, that's not good.
Okay.
Uh, we have a letter here.
And, let's see.
This is to Off the Hook.
Having just moved here from Philadelphia, I've only heard your show once.
But I'd like to say that so far it's the most interesting and enjoyable program I've heard on New York radio, followed closely by Shocking Blue.
I must say that I was also shocked when I found out two weeks ago that 9x operators would not put through certain 800 numbers.
Maybe the plan is to gradually cut New York off from the rest of the world.
I was slightly less shocked about the runaround I got three weeks ago when trying to procure a refund for a long-distance call that never went through.
I never got it.
Old story.
It's amazing how the phone company works, you New Yorkers, to no end and gets away with it.
Okay, we have Mark back.
Uh, Mark, you there?
Yeah, unfortunately they're going to be closing this building soon.
Oh, it's the closing building time again.
Yeah, but I should be able to call back from our unit like I did last time.
Okay, what, uh, how much time do you have?
Uh, roughly until about 11.30, which is only a few minutes.
Okay.
Uh, I'm reading a letter here.
I'm almost finished with it, so let me get through this letter.
Okay.
Um, I'd like to thank you very much for the trip through the Southwestern Bell Company's automated phone system.
You would have gotten the kick out of that, Mark.
Yeah.
It was quite intriguing and had by far the most realistic voice simulation I've ever heard.
Uh, although it was quite interesting, I agree that it was somewhat spooky to hear the availability of the various playback parameter controls that we can look forward to in the future.
I suppose we can expect a standard playback speed of 8 that only computers and geniuses of the superhighway will be able to interpret.
Uh, of course, the rest of us will be left by the wayside without a clue.
This is referring to, uh, something we did with the Rome phone mail system where we, we sped up the playback functioning so that you could barely understand what they were saying.
They were speaking so fast.
You know, speaking like Barnard's?
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a point of reference I'm sure a lot of people will get.
Uh, of course, the spookiest thing about, uh, dealing with that particular automated system was that you inadvertently referred to the computer voice as the lady not once but twice.
In closing, I'd like to say I'm now absolutely sure I will come out to volunteer for the WBAI membership drive.
I think that you are the most informative and, uh, for the public, uh, station I've ever heard.
And since I don't have any money, I'll have to give you, I'll have to give you me, well, signed DJ David Carlton, and he's here right now.
Say hi to the folks.
Hello, folks.
How are you?
And, uh, you came, uh, you came here from Philadelphia, right?
Yes.
And we don't, we don't have stations like this in Philadelphia, do we?
No, not at all.
Nothing that is totally listener-supported at all.
Um, I suppose there's only five of these stations around the country?
Well, there's five Pacifica-owned stations, but there's lots of community stations throughout the, uh, throughout the nation.
Of various sorts, uh, but this is the only real network of this sort that exists.
And we're one of the five flagship stations.
So, uh, David has come out here to, to volunteer support.
And, uh, we hope that those of you out there can call in and volunteer whatever you can volunteer, financially, to keep us going.
Every little bit counts.
Anything you want to say to the people out there to encourage them to, uh, to call in?
Uh, if you find this program as interesting and as necessary as I do,
then by all means, please call up, Erica, 212-279-3400 and pledge whatever you can.
And we most definitely appreciate it.
Okay, up to $770.
We want to, we want to break a thousand.
And we have 35 minutes left to do it.
212-279-3400.
It's going to take, uh, a few more calls to do that.
We have no calls on the line right now.
So, please, uh, uh, change that.
Help us, uh, help us get someplace.
212-279-3400.
Remember, I'm not sure if we have any books left.
I need to hear from Tally if we have any of those books left.
Otherwise, call in whatever you can afford.
That's, uh, that's what it boils down to.
Okay, let's go back to Mark.
Hi.
Still there?
Haven't kicked you out of the building yet?
No, not yet.
Okay, well, what building are you in right now?
You're in the, uh...
Administrative building.
That's the one where people visit you in, right?
Yeah.
This is the one that we eat in and where the recreation room is in.
All the parties take place there, right?
Yeah, right.
Not exactly.
Oh, come on, you guys have to do tennis courts and golf clubs.
Oh, yeah, we're really living it up with that.
Yeah, we've heard the stories.
Sure.
Um, you know, I wish, I wish more people could visit, you know.
It's too bad they have this policy where, um, where you have to be on a list.
But if more people could see what this place was like, you know, they would, uh, they wouldn't
think the things that they, they hear in papers and, you know, about, uh, you know,
the, the luxurious lifestyle.
See, the problem is that it was like that to a degree at some of the places in the early
70s when people like G. Gordon Liddy went to prison camps, which were, uh, meant for,
uh, you know, white-collar crimes and political people and things like that.
But, uh, it hasn't been like that for, uh, over 20 years and I, I wish people would wake
up to that fact.
Well, we're doing, uh, a bit here to, uh, to educate them.
Hopefully they'll hear the message.
Uh, Mark, let me ask you, have you heard of McDonald Island?
Where?
McDonald Island.
Do you know where it is?
Uh, no.
Never heard of it, huh?
Uh, it doesn't ring a bell.
How about, uh, Herd Island?
You ever heard of Herd Island?
Herd Island, no.
Well, neither has AT&T because we, we spent about 20 minutes before trying to get the
country code for them.
Maybe you could explain this.
Uh, every country seems to have one of those, uh, internet domain things.
Uh, and a lot of countries that don't have telephones or islands that don't have telephones
also have them.
For instance, Herd and McDonald Islands are .hm.
Now, why do you suppose that is?
Why they have an internet connection and not telephones?
Well, an internet, uh, domain assigned to them.
I mean, uh, did they actually expect internet connectivity from a place that has no people?
Well, you got, you got me there.
Have you tried looking up the domain and, uh, internet?
Uh, internet didn't give us anything back, but, uh, yeah, we did try that.
Uh, it's .hm.
There's, there's a lot of them.
There's, there's something called the British Indian Ocean Territory, which is .io, but there's,
uh, there's no people there.
I mean, a lot of these places are volcanoes, you know, volcanoes on an island.
That's funny.
In fact, one of the great things about internet is that you can get on and go through, uh,
a system called Gopher.
You've used it.
Yeah.
And there's this thing called the CIA Database.
Have you ever seen that?
Oh, is that the, uh, the CIA, from the CIA World Factbook?
Yeah, the CIA World Factbook.
And you can basically type in any place, and you can type in the most remote island, and
you'll get back a whole lot of information on it.
And I, I should have done this from the beginning, because I, I typed in Hurt Island and McDonald
Island, and it gave me all these facts, you know, about the government and about, uh,
the people.
And because there are no people and there is no government, uh, it just simply said that, uh,
you know, N.A. next to all that, uh, 100% of the land is unusable, uh, and they, they
went into great detail about all the ways the land was not being used, uh, and of course
there were no telephones there, so I was able to find that out very quickly on the net.
But, uh, before, we spent about 20 minutes with the operators, and, uh, they couldn't
find any, any, any sign of it.
Well, guess what, Emmanuel?
It's that magical time.
Sounds like a, uh, yeah, sounds like some announcements going on there.
Actually, it's, it's, uh, tons of people clearing out of the building.
Tons of people.
Okay, so are you going to try to call us back?
Yes, I will.
Okay, great.
212-279-3400, and, uh, we'll, we'll talk to you a little bit later.
Okay.
All right.
Well, that's, uh, fiber optic from prison.
I'm told there are no more books left.
No more books are left, so, uh, well, we warned you.
We warned you, but, um, there's still plenty of things out there, and if you call in and
just pledge anything, you'll get the Limphanix catalog, and then you can order, you can
order books like, uh, Secrets of a Super Hacker, you can order all kinds of other things,
like, you know, what they were talking about, uh, on Dateline NBC, uh, with, um, with the
bomb-making, uh, capabilities.
Now, you don't have to go out there and build bombs, but, uh, you can learn, uh, all kinds
of interesting things.
You can support alternative, uh, thinking, alternative press.
That's what Limphanix is all about.
So, uh, if you believe in that kind of thing, give a call to 212-279-3400.
We'd like to get, uh, you know, get a bunch more, uh, phone calls.
Right now, we have nothing on the line, and, uh, we certainly want to change that.
Um, you know, I picked up, uh, a copy of TV Guide, you know, and I, I'm looking at all
the, all the different networks here.
You know, every single network that, that is, is, is being presented to us as part of this
whole information super hybrid, because this is part of it, too, you know, and you got
all these channels, all these different channels, you know, you have your, uh, um, TBS, you have
your USA, FX, ESPN, uh, Discovery Channel, CNBC, C-SPAN, actually, no, C-SPAN shouldn't
be included in this, because they're, they're the closest thing to, to public access you can
find, but, you know, they all seem to have the same basic mentality, you know, and that's
the, the, the white middle class mentality that, uh, most sitcoms are based in, and there's,
there's no alternative thinking, you know, it's all kind of like the same, uh, car commercial
lifestyle, where everybody has the same set of values, and there's no real, uh, difference
in that, and you go through the radio, you see the same thing, you know, you see, uh, one
commercial station, and it's exactly the same as another commercial station, and you
don't even have to be in the same city, you know, you take a commercial station from, um,
from our city, and then you go to, uh, somewhere in Texas, or somewhere in, uh, in Wisconsin,
and it'll be the exact same thing, even the announcers will sound exactly the same, no, no
localized accents or anything like that, same basic values, same basic, uh, set of, um, of, uh,
ideals, and, and, and things like that, and that's, that's what it's all about, that's
what they, uh, that's what they do, they kind of make it mass appeal, you don't want to offend
anybody, you don't want to, uh, uh, uh, polarize any one group, you want to appeal to as, as
many people as you possibly can, and that's what broadcasting really is, you know, it's,
it's appealing to the broad masses, what we do here at WBAI is more like narrowcasting,
now we don't narrowcast to one particular group of people, we narrowcast to lots of
different groups of people at different times throughout the, uh, the course of a day,
throughout the course of a week, and that means that, uh, when you turn on the radio,
sometimes you'll hear things that, uh, don't interest you, and sometimes you'll hear things
that, uh, you know, you, you simply won't move because you want to hear how it ends, you
want to hear how the, uh, how the program finishes, because it's geared so much towards someone
like you that, uh, you feel that it's been written just for your benefit, that's what we're
asking you to support, that kind of, uh, that kind of thinking, that kind of, uh, alternative,
uh, broadcasting, 212-279-3400, the difference is, every single one of these networks that
you see on, on, on cable television, every single one of these radio stations that you
see on the FM and AM dials, they all have commercials, and commercials are basically a
way of forcing you to pay for them, you don't have a choice, you know, you can't say, well,
I'm going to buy this box of Oreos, but please, I don't want to pay for the advertising that
went into it, sorry, you don't have a choice, you wind up paying for their pitching, they
just don't pitch in exactly the same way.
In our case, uh, we need support so that people can, uh, continue to listen to this radio
station, and, uh, without that support, we can't be here, we'd be replaced, we'd be replaced
in a second by, uh, another commercial radio station that would wind up sounding exactly
the same, well, yeah, they'd play something different, they'd play, uh, you know, 70s,
uh, B-sides or something, no, they wouldn't even do that, they'd play something, um, all right,
they wouldn't play country music, they'd play western music, yeah, there you go, so there's
a slight difference there, but, uh, that's, uh, that's a very slight difference.
Please, show your support, 212-279-3400.
Okay, uh, fiber optic has walked all the way back to his building now, and, and, and he's
there now.
Yes, I am.
Okay, great, uh, you're doing very well on the phones.
Uh, I should point out something depressing.
The whole time, when, when you hung up the phone, the whole time, until you picked up this
phone and called us, in a building many, many feet away from your other building, I had
been asking for money from our listeners, and not one person has called, what do you
think of that?
That's terrible.
That's, that's shocking, that's embarrassing.
I mean, I, I guess there's one scenario, and that's that people are so transfixed by what
they're hearing, that they don't dare move, even the slightest bit, to reach for a telephone
to call us.
The other scenario is that, uh,
100 and pledge whatever you can, and we most definitely appreciate it.
Okay, up to $770.
We want to, we want to break a thousand, and we have 35 minutes left to do it.
212-279-3400, it's going to take, uh, a few more calls to do that.
We have no calls on the line right now, so please, uh, uh, change that.
Help us, uh, help us get some place.
212-279-3400, remember, I'm not sure if we have any books left.
I need to hear from Tally if we have any of those books left.
Otherwise, call in whatever you can afford.
That's, uh, that's what it boils down to.
Okay, let's go back to Mark.
Hi.
Still there?
Haven't kicked you out of the building yet?
No, not yet.
Okay, well, what building are you in right now?
You're in the, uh...
Administrative building.
That's the one where people visit you in, right?
Yeah.
This is the one that we eat in, and where the recreation room is in.
All the parties take place there, right?
Yeah, right.
Not exactly.
Oh, come on, you guys have to do tennis courts and golf clubs.
Oh, yeah, we're really living it up with that.
Yeah, we've, we've, we've heard the stories.
Sure.
Um, you know, I wish, I wish more people could visit, you know.
It's too bad they have this policy where, um, where you have to be on a list.
But if more people could see what this place was like, you know, they would, uh, they wouldn't
think the things that they, they hear in papers and, you know, about, uh, you know, the, the
luxurious lifestyle.
See, the problem is that it was like that to a degree at some of the places in the early
seventies when people like G. Gordon Whitty went to prison camps, which were meant for,
you know, white collar crimes and political people and things like that.
But, uh, it hasn't been like that for, uh, over 20 years and I, I wish people would wake
up to that fact.
Well, we're doing, uh, a bit here to, uh, to educate them.
Hopefully they'll hear the message.
Uh, Mark, let me ask you, have you heard of McDonald Island?
Where?
McDonald Island.
Do you know where it is?
Uh, no.
Never heard of it, huh?
Uh, it doesn't ring a bell.
How about, uh, Heard Island?
You ever heard of Heard Island?
Heard Island, no.
Well, neither has AT&T because we, we spent about 20 minutes before trying to get the
country code for them.
Maybe you could explain this.
Uh, every country seems to have one of those, uh, internet domain things.
Uh, and a lot of countries that don't have telephones or islands that don't have telephones
also have them.
For instance, Heard and McDonald Islands are .hm.
Now, why do you suppose that is?
Why they have an internet connection and not telephones?
Well, an internet, uh, domain assigned to them.
I mean, uh, did they actually expect internet connectivity from a place that has no people?
Well, you got, you got me there.
Have you tried looking up the domain in, uh, internet?
Uh, internet didn't give us anything back, but, uh, yeah, we did try that.
Uh, it's .hm.
There's, there's a lot of them.
There's, there's something called the British Indian Ocean Territory, which is .io, but there's,
uh, there's no people there.
I mean, a lot of these places are volcanoes, you know, volcanoes on an island.
That's funny.
In fact, one of the great things about internet is that you can get on and go through, uh,
a, a system called Gopher.
You've used it.
Yeah.
And there's this thing called the CIA database.
Have you ever seen that?
Oh, is that the, uh, the CIA, from the CIA World Factbook?
Yeah, the CIA World Factbook.
And you can basically type in any place, and you can type in the most remote island, and
you'll get back a, a whole lot of information on it.
And I, I should have done this from the beginning, because I, I typed in Heard Island and McDonald
Island, and it gave me all these facts, you know, about the government and about the people.
And because there are no people and there is no government, uh, it just simply said that,
uh, you know, NA next to all that, uh, 100% of the land is unusable.
Uh, and they, they went into great detail about all the ways the land was not being used.
Uh, and of course, there were no telephones there, so I was able to find that out very
quickly on the net.
But, uh, before, we spent about 20 minutes with the operators, and, uh, they couldn't
find any, any, any sign of it.
Well, guess what, Emmanuel?
It's that magical time.
Sounds like a, uh, yeah, sounds like some announcements going on there.
Actually, it's, it's, uh, tons of people clearing out of the building.
Tons of people.
Okay, so are you going to try to call us back?
Yes, I will.
Okay, great.
212-279-3400, and, uh, we'll, we'll talk to you a little bit later.
Okay.
All right.
Well, that's, uh, fiber optic from prison.
I'm told there are no more books left.
No more books are left, so, uh, well, we warned you.
We warned you.
But, um, there's still plenty of things out there, and if you call in and just pledge
anything, you'll get the Limphanix catalog.
And then you can order, you can order books like, uh, Secrets of a Super Hacker.
You can order all kinds of other things, like, you know, what they were talking about,
um, on Dateline NBC, uh, with, um, with the bomb-making, uh, capabilities.
Now, you don't have to go out there and build bombs, but, uh, you can learn, uh, all kinds
of interesting things.
You can support alternative, uh, thinking, alternative press.
That's what Limphanix is all about.
So, uh, if you believe in that kind of thing, give a call to 212-279-3400.
We'd like to get, uh, you know, get a bunch more, uh, phone calls.
Right now, we have nothing on the line, and, uh, we certainly want to change that.
Um, you know, I picked up, uh, a copy of TV Guide, you know, and I, I'm looking at all
the, all the different networks here.
You know, every single network that, that is, is, is being presented to us as part of
this whole information superhighway, because this is part of it, too, you know, and you
got all these channels, all these different channels, you know, you have your, uh, um,
TBS, you have your USA, FX, ESPN, uh, Discovery Channel, CNBC, C-SPAN, actually, no, C-SPAN
shouldn't be included in this, because they're, they're the closest thing to, to public
access you can find, but, you know, they all seem to have the same basic mentality, you
know, and that's the, the, the white middle class mentality that, uh, most sitcoms are
based in, and there's, there's no alternative thinking, you know, it's all kind of like
the same, uh, car commercial lifestyle, where everybody has the same set of values, and
there's no real, uh, difference in that, and you go through the radio, you see the same
thing, you know, you see, uh, one commercial station, and it's exactly the same as another
commercial station, and you don't even have to be in the same city, you know, you take
a commercial station from, um, from our city, and then you go to, uh, somewhere in Texas,
or somewhere in, uh, in Wisconsin, and it'll be the exact same thing, even the announcers
will sound exactly the same, no, no localized accents or anything like that, same basic values,
same basic, uh, set of, um, of, uh, ideals, and, and things like that, and that's, that's
what it's all about, that's what they, uh, that's what they do, they kind of make it mass
appeal, you don't want to offend anybody, you don't want to, uh, uh, polarize any one
group, you want to appeal to as, as many people as you possibly can, and that's what broadcasting
really is, you know, it's, it's appealing to the broad masses, what we do here at WBAI
is more like narrowcasting, now we don't narrowcast to one particular group of people, we narrowcast
to lots of different groups of people at different times throughout the, uh, the course
of a day, throughout the course of a week, and that means that, uh, when you turn on
the radio, sometimes you'll hear things that, uh, don't interest you, and sometimes you'll
hear things that, uh, you know, you, you simply won't move because you want to hear how it
ends, you want to hear how the, uh, how the program finishes, because it's geared so much
towards someone like you that, uh, you feel it's been written just for your benefit, that's
what we're asking you to support, that kind of, uh, that kind of thinking, that
kind of, uh, alternative, uh, broadcasting, 212-279-3400, the difference is, every single
one of these networks that you see on, on, on cable television, every single one of these
radio stations that you see on the FM and AM dials, they all have commercials, and commercials
are basically a way of forcing you to pay for them, you don't have a choice, you know, you
can't say, well, I'm going to buy this box of Oreos, but please, I don't want to pay for
the advertising that went into it, sorry, you don't have a choice, you wind up paying
for their pitching, they just don't pitch in exactly the same way, in our case, uh, we
need support so that people can, uh, continue to listen to this radio station, and, uh, without
that support, we can't be here, we'd be replaced, we'd be replaced in a second by, uh, another
commercial radio station that would wind up sounding exactly the same, oh, yeah, they'd
play something different, they'd play, uh, you know, 70s, uh, B-sides or something, no,
they wouldn't even do that, they'd play something, um, all right, they wouldn't play country music,
they'd play western music, yeah, there you go, so there's a slight difference there, but,
uh, that's, uh, that's a very slight difference, please show your support, 212-279-3400.
Okay, uh, fiber optic has walked all the way back to his building now, and, and, and he's
there now.
Yes, I am.
Okay, great, uh, you're doing very well on the phones, uh, I should point out something
depressing, the whole time, when, when you hung up the phone, the whole time, until you
picked up this phone and called us, in a building many, many feet away from your other building,
I have been asking for money from our listeners, and not one person has called, what do you
think of that?
That's terrible.
That's, that's shocking, that's embarrassing, I mean, I, I guess there's one scenario, and
that's that people are so transfixed by what they're hearing, that they don't dare move,
even the slightest bit, to reach for a telephone to call us, the other scenario is that, uh, they
just don't care.
Oh, I don't know if I'd go so far as to say they don't care.
I don't know, it seems like, uh, you know, we're not getting a response here, and I'd
like to see people show some support for the radio station, because, um, this is our last
program for, uh, for this pitch drive, pledge drive, pitch drive, whatever you want to call
it, it's the last one, and, uh, believe me, it's, it's, it's not easy, it's not easy having
to bare your soul like this, uh, so please, uh, maybe, maybe coming from you, Mark, it would
mean a little bit more.
Well, if anyone could, if, not anyone, if everyone could give just a little bit, so that,
uh, I mean, what if there was no BAI, there would be no radio station for me to call, being
where I am.
You, you couldn't call K-Rock, they wouldn't put you on the radio?
I think it'd probably be kind of hard.
How about WQXR, you know, they could take a break from all the classical and, uh, put you
on there, no?
Uh, somehow I don't see it happening.
What about, uh, Hot 97?
Oh, I don't know, I don't think prison is really hip enough for them.
They could play music underneath you, you know, or, uh, I don't know, there's so many
radio stations, why is it nobody's interested, why is it nobody cares to, uh, you know, to
put alternative voices on?
I mean, everybody I know, everybody I know is into alternative thought, you know, they're
into reading crazy publications and, and, and alternative books, and they're leading
alternative lifestyles of various sorts, so why is it?
You know, I was just talking about this, I was, I was reading through TV Guide of all
things, and noticing how all the networks are kind of geared towards the same people,
you know, they all have sort of the same values, they all have the same car commercials and,
and, and chewing gum commercials and all that kind of thing, and everyone's leading the
same kind of lifestyle on TV, you know?
But, uh, in real life, it's not like that.
I, I don't know, why do you suppose that is?
Uh, I'm, I'm clueless, I don't know.
Yeah.
212-279-3400.
Please show your support for this bastion of free thought that, uh, comes to you right
in the middle of the FM dial.
You know, most, uh, non-commercial stations are, are kind of put into a ghetto of below
92.
That way, you, you shove them all over there below 92, and, and people know not to venture
below 92 unless they want to risk having their mind stimulated.
Whereas, we're right here in the middle, so that, literally, you can be on your way
to, you know, to classic rock from, from any W or whatever, you know, going from one boring
rock station to another, and, and you could just sort of, you know, stop to rest while
you're turning the dial and hit us, and there have been people that have done that, and
they've never left.
And it's not because their dial broke, it's because they, they, they really were interested
in what was going on here.
Well, you know what we could do, Emmanuel?
What's that?
If one more person calls, I can, uh, I can put somebody on who we spoke with last week.
Okay, great.
Uh, so we'll hear, we'll hear from a fellow prisoner of Mark's.
If one more person calls in, 212-279-3400, we'll be giving that person a, uh, a voice to,
uh, to the tri-state area.
All it takes is one person, and that one person can be you.
Now, don't just call and hang up.
That's not going to count.
You have to call and pledge something, all right?
And it can be whatever you can afford.
Remember, we take Visa and MasterCard.
So if you have one of those magic plastic cards in your pocket that, uh, that can really
help out in a situation like this, 212-279-3400.
We're up to 795 bucks here.
So, uh, we're $205 away from our goal for tonight.
So, uh, we want people to help us out.
212-279-3400.
And, uh, all it takes is one more person.
How long have I been on, by the way?
Um, this particular call?
Yeah.
About four minutes, I think.
Okay, good.
Yeah.
So, uh, that should take you almost, uh, almost to 10-2.
And if you're able to call back again, that'd be great, but, uh, that'll bring it close enough
to midnight.
When they shut down your phone system, right?
Yes, they do.
Wow.
212-279-3400.
Still waiting for that call.
You think we're kidding?
We're not going to put the person on until, uh, until we hear from somebody.
We have to know people care out there.
Yeah.
So, uh, how's the weather out there?
Uh, it was actually nice the past couple of days.
It was nice today, and it was kind of nice yesterday, which, uh, is really driving me
crazy because, uh, I'm having, uh, hay fever, allergies and stuff, and it's, uh, kind of
late in the season for it, but, uh, for whatever reason, it's happening now up here in the
mountains, and it's been hot and cold on and off, and the weather is really, uh, sporadic
right now.
You know, when we brought you up there, or over there, or, or what have you, um, we, uh,
it was, it was the dead of winter, and, and this was the winter that seemed to last
forever.
Yeah, that's true.
And then, uh, visiting you this summer, it was, uh, extremely hot.
But, I mean, you've seen the extremes, you've seen, uh, you know, and you've had to work
outside during all this, and...
Oh, yeah.
I, I worked outside the entire winter shoveling snow.
Uh-huh.
What, what job do you have now?
Right now, I'm, uh, I'm an orderly.
I think I might have mentioned this last week.
I'm an orderly in, uh, one of the ranges that we live in, in our building.
There's four ranges, and it's kind of like an army barracks type setup with, uh, open
cubes.
Uh-huh.
So you, you buff floors still.
My job is basically to, uh, make sure everything is nice and shiny and clean and stuff like
that.
Uh-huh.
And, and you're doing the floor buffing still?
Yeah.
Okay.
They haven't attacked you again, have they?
Oh, no, no, nothing like that.
We, we've, uh, we kind of built up a relationship, me and the buffer.
Okay, we always were pretty good with buffers there.
I, I guess you're looking forward to working on the net when you get back out, right?
Oh, definitely.
I can't wait to get out of here and get back to doing, uh, something with a purpose.
Uh-huh.
I mean, uh, you really get depressed here because you feel like you have absolutely,
uh, no purpose whatsoever.
Yeah, the net connections to prison are, are, leave a lot to be desired, don't they?
Yeah.
Wouldn't that be great if you had an actual net connection, though, if we could actually,
uh...
It would be nice, yeah.
Yeah, that would be something.
But I'm sure that's something that, uh...
Maybe in the distant future.
Representative Markey would not approve of, so that probably will never happen.
You're a good friend.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Uh, uh, anyway, 212-279-3400, I see we've gotten the call, so, uh, let's, uh, let's fulfill
our promise.
All right.
Here he is.
All right.
Thanks to the people that called in.
Hello?
Hello, how are you?
I'm okay, how are you?
Okay, and which person is this that we spoke to last week?
Uh, this is Ira.
Ira, and, uh, you were in for what again?
I was in for the, uh, the money laundering and the, uh, the, uh, conspiracy, the drug conspiracy.
Okay, so you were the ecstasy person, right?
I'm still here for that.
They haven't changed it yet.
And you're in for six and a half years?
Right.
Amazing.
And, uh, when did you start serving?
Uh, I actually started, like, two or three days before Mark.
Okay.
I've seen you already over him.
Uh-huh.
Wow.
Um, so, I mean, all the questions we've asked Mark, I guess, uh, you know, carry six times
the weight for you when we ask what you, what you miss the most.
Oh, yeah, I guess you would say that.
I mean, I, to be honest with you, I'm a person that adapts to new environments very well,
and I've really, I, I have to say for somebody that's in jail, I've made myself, uh, pretty
comfortable.
Uh-huh.
I mean, as comfortable as I can get.
So, uh, I mean, I've, I've made it to the point that I can see the six years ahead of
me and not feel like I'm going to go completely nuts.
So, how do you, how do you do it?
What do you see?
Uh, um, you know, uh, trying to make the best that I can.
I'm using the time to get a college education and, uh, learn all the things that I wanted
to learn that I just never had the time to do on the outside because I was always working.
I'm trying to make it like a nice six-year vacation.
That's, uh, that's a real positive outlook there.
Uh, what, what part of, uh, what part of the world are you from?
Uh, I'm from the, my own little world in New York.
Uh-huh.
Okay.
And you say you adapt well to new environments.
What kind of environments have you been in?
Well, I mean, you know, being in the city, you can move from block to block and you're
in a different environment, so.
That's certainly true.
Uh, you know, uh, this environment, you have to understand, I mean, you're under the reign
of the dictator.
I mean, you have to do what you're told.
I mean, you have to be willing to be able to bite your tongue and deal with, uh, being,
uh, you know, uh, mentally abused, you know, the whole way through.
So, I mean, that's basically what the type of environment is here.
I mean, you understand this is a camp and you have a lot more freedom than somebody might
have in, uh, in a penitentiary.
Uh, but there are other kinds of, uh, problems that you incur.
Have they ever, uh, taken you across the street to the, uh, nasty place?
Well, I'll have to answer that yes, but I need an explanation.
I used to work down there.
That was my first job.
So, I used to go down there and clean.
So, it wasn't for any bad reason.
I just used to go down there.
I was an orderly down there.
Uh-huh.
And, uh, what kind of differences did you see?
Well, uh, immediately the guards are completely different.
Uh, you're treated, you're treated, instantly you're treated differently.
You really get to know that you're a prisoner and they know that you don't, that you're
a camper and they know that you're coming there just to work, but they really don't discern
that when you're working there and, uh, you're really treated differently.
You're followed everywhere.
Um, you're never allowed to walk behind an officer.
Uh, you know, little things that you just notice in their body language that, uh, that
really separates you.
I have to say that, uh, 90% of the time when a guard comes into the camp, uh, they, they,
they understand that they're in a camp and the people here are different and you don't
get that feeling when you're down at the FCI.
They really, you know, it's, you're in a different place.
You're in a different world.
You have to be watched every moment, uh, every movement that you make.
Wow.
That is something.
So, uh, apart from getting, uh, your college, um, education, uh, is there anything else you're,
you're looking forward to there?
Do you do a lot of reading?
Sure.
I, uh, I, uh, found a lot of comfort in reading that I never found before.
And, uh, I'm, uh, I guess I'm teaching a few classes here, so I'm really looking forward
to doing that.
It's my way of, uh, you know, sharing what knowledge I have to the other inmates that
are here.
Uh-huh.
Do you, do you think that you've, uh, done anything to, to, to merit this kind of punishment
though?
Uh, well, let's just say I'm not going to be one of those guys that pleads that I'm
innocent the whole way and, uh, what they're doing to me is terrible and it's torture and
they never should have done it.
My big issue is to let the punishment fit the crime.
I mean, six and a half years for a minor conspiracy charge with, with some drugs is a little
absurd.
I mean, $2,000 money laundering charge to land you six and a half years is, is, is, it's
obnoxious.
I mean, uh, everybody would have been upset, you know, to find out that you're going to
jail.
But once you get here, you realize that a year sentence or even a two year sentence really
isn't the end of the world, you know, you do it, you get it over with, and then your
life goes on.
But when you're facing six and a half years for something so minor, it makes you wonder
why you just didn't go out and kill somebody.
Yeah.
I mean, people have killed people and gotten less than that.
I should have gotten away with more money or something.
Yeah.
Right.
Is there anything that can be done on the outside that, I mean, is it, is there, is there
a possibility that this sentence could be, could be shortened?
And allow the government to get away with this.
They have to, I mean, I'm, I, I really don't know what to tell the people to do exactly,
but something has to be done.
Something can be done.
They can explain to, you know, that the government has made such absurd drug laws that they're
taking people that aren't necessarily innocent, but not necessarily, didn't necessarily do
something that bad, and they're ruining their entire lives.
I mean, the whole idea is what is prison?
It's supposed to be rehabilitation, but it's not.
It's punishment.
You're not rehabilitating anybody.
You're just punishing them.
You're making the situation worse.
I mean, what happens is the people are going to get out.
They're not going to have anything to do but go back to what they did before, and if they
get caught again, well, that's the end of their life, because they'll be here forever
now.
Are there lots of other people there that have similar sentences?
Um, the sentences vary at this place.
I mean, you have to understand where we are.
We're in a camp, and we're in a very protected camp, so a lot of people here get special treatment
because they treated the DEA right or the prosecutor right, so they got rewarded instead.
Instead, I'm not one of those people, so I'm one of the rarities that has an extremely
long sentence.
I see.
Well, Ira, can you give out your name and address so that if any of our listeners can
write to you or help you in any way, they have a way of getting in touch with you?
I'd like to.
I'd love to get mail.
The name is Ira Heaps, H-E-A-P-S, and my number is 34314-054.
And, uh, the address, do you want the whole address?
Yes.
Uh, it's, uh, FPC Schoolkill, uh, P.O. Box 670, Minersville, Pennsylvania, 17954-0670.
Okay, and your prisoner number again was 34134-054?
No, 34314-054.
34314-054, got it.
Okay, hopefully a lot of our listeners will, uh, will write to you and not forget about
you either.
I'll even write them back.
Okay.
Good luck.
And, uh, I wish there was something I could think of right away that, uh, that would make
you, uh, feel better, but, uh, there isn't.
We'll just send you lots of things.
Oh, that looks like the time's gone on the phone.
Okay, is Mark still there?
Yes, hold on.
Okay, thanks.
Hello.
Hey, how you doing?
Hey.
Well, yeah, you got one click already, so, uh, you have a few...
Well, that's the only click we get with the new phone system.
Oh, you don't get two clicks?
Oh, just one now.
Ah.
We can try to call back.
Okay, are there people waiting?
Just one person.
Okay, so, maybe we'll, uh, we'll get through.
Yeah.
Okay, well, it was good talking to him, uh...
Oh, guess what?
What?
That, uh, the other person just got off the phone, and that one person is now using the
phone.
Okay, so why don't you call us right back?
Okay.
All right.
Uh, Mark's gonna call us right back.
We're at $935, which means we're only 65 away from our goal.
We have 10 minutes.
I hope there's a couple of people out there that see fit to give us a call now at this
late stage.
212-279-3400.
Please call us.
212-279-3400.
Show support for the kind of, uh, of, of, of voices that you hear on this radio station,
for the kind of thought that you hear.
Hi.
Hey.
Okay, you're back.
I was just telling the folks that they're only $65 away from our goal, and, um, we just
need, uh, a couple more callers, 212-279-3400.
Um, a lot of, a lot of places, a lot of people want to, want to sweep prisoners under the
rug, and, um, we certainly don't want to do that here.
We want to hear the stories.
I, the, Ira's case is just incredible to me, the fact that someone could be sent away
for so long for such a, uh, a really minor offense.
Well, uh, Ira fell into the trap of, uh, of trial.
And, uh, it's really unfortunate that people think that, uh, they're going to get a fair
shake, that, uh, that they're going to go to trial because they feel that, uh, that they
have a fighting chance.
When in reality, they try to, uh, make people plea and force them into a corner.
And, uh, in his case, uh, he didn't fall for that, and he thought that he had a fighting
chance by going to trial, and it turned out to be, uh, obviously for the worse.
Uh-huh.
Oh, that was, uh, that was something that you were battling, whether or not to, uh, to
go to trial or to plead guilty.
I could be Ira.
I could be, uh, talking to you from here, and I could have, uh, at least five years at
the very minimum.
Incredible.
So it really depends on, uh, who those 12 people are.
I mean, if they, if they think that the crime you committed is particularly heinous, then,
uh, you could go away for a very long period of time.
Yeah.
What it all boiled down to was that, given the slant that the prosecutors had
and the, uh, just seeing the, uh, the attitude of the judge and, uh, seeing the attitudes
of the federal agents and knowing all the people who were going to testify, uh, against
me.
It, uh, it was just really tainted.
Seeing all the, uh, discovery material, the supposed evidence against me, and, uh, having
to say that I was going to trust 12 people I don't even know to understand any of this.
Uh, it's, you know, it, it, that sounded like probably the worst, you know, the worst of
the two things that I could have done.
Yeah.
That would have been, uh, much worse, obviously.
Do you think there was anything you could have done, though, um, um, uh, beforehand and
avoided prison altogether?
Well, beforehand, how far back do you mean?
You mean...
Well, obviously, uh, yeah, I guess you couldn't have gotten involved in hacking in the first
place, but...
Oh, I wouldn't go that far.
I would say that, uh, I mean, my demise was the people who I dealt with, obviously.
Uh-huh.
And, um...
I'm saying after, after indictments came down, if, um, is there something more you could
have done to cooperate with them, to, uh...
Oh, well, sure.
There, I mean, uh, they can, they, they can say that, uh, you know, they're going to cook
up, cook up some juicy deal where you testify against other people.
Right, but if everybody was going to testify against you already, how could you testify against
them?
Well, not everyone was.
Uh-huh.
I mean, one person in the indictment was, uh, another person who was peripheral was, and then
there were any number of, uh, unnamed, uh, co-conspirators, they called them, people who
were co-conspirators who aren't named in the indictment.
But the way it works is, you kind of have to make your deal before the other people make
their deal, because if they make their deal before you, then there's no deal left for
you to make.
That's true, in a way.
It depends.
Also, you have to consider the fact that, uh, I, I was, uh, probably fingered by the feds
as being, uh, for lack of a better word, I guess the most, uh, dangerous person that
they would have been after.
Well, I mean, they get this radio station down there, you know, they, uh, they've heard
your voice, they know that you're outspoken, and, and you don't really say that, you know,
you're, you're a criminal, and yet you do bad things.
You don't, you don't admit to that kind of thing.
You don't think that, uh, that seeking knowledge and spreading information is wrong.
Yeah.
And because you don't, you don't confess to your sins, you become especially dangerous.
And as the judge said, you must be sentenced as a symbol.
Unfortunately, yeah.
Well, I don't know.
I don't know, Mr. Symbol, how, how this kind of thing happens, but, um, it's got to be
stopped somehow.
You know, all they're doing is building new prisons everywhere.
That's true.
And, uh, well, why don't we ask, uh, the person who's there helping out?
He's, uh, from Pennsylvania.
Why is it that Pennsylvania has so many prisons?
Well, actually, he just left.
But, uh, but I'd like to know that myself.
I'm not sure if, if he would have the answer to that, but, um, I don't know.
Why does Pennsylvania have, Pennsylvania is the only, only place I ever got a ticket in
a car, you know?
Well, I was doing something like 57 miles an hour in a 55 zone, and I got a ticket for
that.
So, you know, I'm beginning to wonder about Pennsylvania.
It seems like a very strange place, and they have all these bizarre abortion laws, and I
don't know.
They just seem, they just seem to be moving in the other direction as everybody else.
But it's not a Pennsylvania thing, though.
It's a, it's a U.S. thing with this prison mentality, you know, where, where half the
citizens will be locked up, and the other half will be keeping them locked up.
Um, that's true, but it is the community planners who have the final say, and whether
or not, uh, you know, obviously, I will, I guess they might not have the final say, but
they're going to really raise a ruckus if they don't want a prison built in, uh, their
vicinity.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, but I don't think the people of Frackville are really going to have much, uh, much pull.
No, but I mean, on the contrary, uh, I, uh, I think people should know that since I've
been here, we've seen people from the community come here and, uh, be given a tour of the
prison, and, uh, it seems to be that this particular prison is here completely with
their blessing.
They think that they're serving some greater good of the people or something.
Right.
Well, I think you'll find that kind of mentality in many places, where people are actually
proud to have prisons.
I mean, uh, you know, in, in, in the, um, in the film Roger and Me, I know there was
a, a big thing about a prison opening up, and the people of the community were so happy
to have this prison that they even had a party there before they opened it for inmates, and
they, they, they spent, I think, upwards of $100 to spend a night in jail and, and actually
be locked up, and it was part of the whole thing, and then, then, of course, the next day
they left, and the prisoners arrived.
That's really pathetic.
Yeah, and that's, uh, it's, it's this bizarre circus atmosphere that seems to surround everything
these days, and prisons is notwithstanding.
So, I don't know.
I think we're far away from, from people waking up and saying that, uh, prisons are bad things.
Prisons are admissions of, of, of failure in society.
You have no choice but to keep somebody confined.
That's the only way you can deal with them.
That's the only way society can handle these people.
And, obviously, the people that you're there with, I would assume the vast majority of
them, are people that, uh, would have no trouble in society, that society's in no danger from
them.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, it, it's implied.
This is a white-collar prison for non-violent offenders.
There's absolutely, there's no one that I've met here who I would consider a violent person.
You know, there's no one here who is a major threat to society at all.
Not even some of the guards?
Now, you don't have to answer that.
You don't have to answer that.
But, uh, yeah, that's, uh, that, that's completely true.
And if that is the case, then why?
For God's sake.
I mean, there's other ways of punishing people, but this just does not seem, this should be
a last resort.
You, you can find people that have to be kept separate from, from society, but, uh.
Well, you know what I think, Emmanuel?
What's that?
I think last week we touched upon one of the major reasons why these camps exist, because
it, it begs the question, why don't they just put non-violent offenders on home confinement?
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
And, uh, I think when we started, uh, touching onto the topic of, uh, unicorn last week,
we, uh, hit the tip of the iceberg, and I think that, uh, most of these camps exist for
the, the sheer purpose of money and greed.
Yeah.
Well, they get a lot out of you guys.
I mean, you know, uh, taxpayers wind up paying a huge amount to keep somebody in prison,
but the prison, the prisoner is an able-bodied person that can do work, uh, how, how many
hours a day do they, they work these people?
Oh, we work, uh, some people work four hours, some people work six hours.
Uh-huh.
Some people work every day of the week.
Uh, the bakers in the kitchen bake every day.
Yeah.
But, uh, you know, a company like Unicor, run by the government, staffed by prisoners, making
furniture, that's, uh, being paid, what, 20 cents an hour for that?
Roughly, yeah.
It's, uh, it's a scandal, all right.
It's something that, um, we have to take a good look at.
So, someone here just, uh, wanted me to bring up the fact that, uh, we here are, uh, just
as adamant about, uh, doing something about violent crime as anyone on the outside is.
I don't doubt it.
I don't doubt it at all.
I've seen people there.
When I go to visit, I see the other prisoners, and, um, you know, you realize these are real
people.
These aren't, uh, violent animals that need to be locked up, you know.
Uh, people like that exist.
Sure, and we have to deal with them in a certain way, but, uh, you know, you, you don't, you
don't criminalize everybody and throw them all into the same pit and say, you're a criminal
and you're not, and that's all there is.
That's all the distinction.
Everybody commits a crime of some sort.
Everybody can be found guilty of something.
I don't care.
There, there's nobody out there that, uh, that can say that they have not committed some
sort of a crime at some point in their lives.
I challenge Jesse Helms on this.
I'll find something in his past.
Well, that's about it for me.
We just got the click and the phones are about to be turned off.
Okay, well, we, I guess we got the equivalent of a click too because, uh, we're, we're about
to finish up for the night as well.
Uh, Robert Knight is up next.
Mark, uh, we're not on next week.
Okay.
So, uh, we'll talk to you hopefully in two weeks.
All right, sounds good.
Usual time period.
All right, you hang in there until then.
Thanks.
All right, take care.
Bye-bye.
That was, uh, fiber optic coming to us live from prison.
And, uh, you know, I didn't write down the, the address, but I can tell you that, uh, if
you want to write to Mark, it's Mark Ebene, A-B-E-N-E, 321-09-054 is, uh, his number.
I think I can remember the rest of it too.
So, uh, um, let's see, FPC, Federal Prison Camp at Schoolkill, S-C-H-U-Y-L-K-I-L-L, Unit
1, P.O. Box 670, Minersville, Pennsylvania.
I don't know the zip.
I'm sorry.
One line something.
So if anybody there has a zip, uh, you can call up the post office and I'll give it to
you.
Or look in a back issue of 2600 and I'm sure it'll be printed there as well.
That's it for us.
I'm happy to say we made it over the 1,000 mark.
So, uh, thanks to everybody who called in, showed their support.
Uh, again, everybody will be getting a Loom Panics catalog as our, our way of saying thanks.
And, uh, if you want to still call in, it's not too late.
We won't be on next week.
So that's it for us, uh, during this fundraiser.
We'll be back in two weeks.
And yeah, we'll have a scandal for you in two weeks.
We're, we're still working on it now.
That's why we can't say anything.
We're not, uh, trying to, to not give information out.
We just want to make sure it's right when we do give it out.
So two weeks, we'll be back in our usual time slot and, uh, we'll see you then.
Take care.
The telephone keeps ringing.
So I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving.
Now I can't make a call.
It couldn't get much worse.
But if it could, it would.
Bum, diddly, bum, but the best is back for worst.
I hope that's understood.
Bum, diddly, bum!
Bum, diddly, bum!
Bum, diddly, bum!
Bum, diddly, bum!
Bum, diddly!
Bum.
Bum.
Bum.
Bum.
Bum.
Bum.
In
November of 1992, the U.S.-Cuba French shipment broke the embargo of Cuba by delivering
15 tons of urgently needed humanitarian aid to the Cuban people. In August of 1993,
the U.S. government tried to prevent church activists from delivering a little yellow
school bus to a Cuban church. The United States failed and the school bus was delivered. In
March of 1994, the French shipment again broke the embargo by delivering a 10-foot satellite
dish to Cuba. Plans are now underway for the fourth U.S.-Cuba French shipment. The caravan
will travel through 150 cities in the United States, Canada, and Mexico, collecting humanitarian
aid and providing information about the embargo and Cuba. If you want to participate or support
the fourth French shipment caravan, call 212-926-5757. That's 212-926-5757.
This is a public service announcement by WBAI on behalf of IPCO and Pastors for Peace.
We're here on 57th Street telling folks about the 1994 Food and Hunger Hotline full cycling
tour. Oh, excuse me, miss. Miss, do you ride a bike? Why else would I be wearing this ugly
helmet and these sexy stretch pants? How would you like to ride 40 or 60 miles out of the city,
enjoy the fall foliage, and get a free lunch when you return? What, a bagel with cream cheese? No,
a gourmet lunch. Chives in the cream cheese? I'm talking a gourmet lunch donated by great
restaurants. My ex, Herb, he was big on gourmet. All you have to do is raise $50 in pledges. He took
me out for a pheasant once. I had to shoot it myself. Reebok and Archer Daniels Midland are sponsors,
and proceeds will go to Food and Hunger Hotline and One City Cafe. When is it? Saturday,
this Saturday. So call the hotline at 212-533-7600. 533-7600. Right. And hey, have a nice ride.
That's what I said to Herb when I left.
And you're listening to WBAI in New York. It is about four minutes after 12, and this is Earthwatch.
Robert Knight is following up on the Haiti story, and he's out there busily collecting information
for future reports. So he's asked me to basically introduce the following piece, but first to Earthwatch.
I'll see you next time.
Sun and moon and stars shining on the land
Golden corn grain running through my hand
Sun and moon and stars
Sun and moon and stars
Sun and moon and stars
Sun and moon and stars
Will, truly, raise up your voice and song
Good, earth, fire, take all my fears away
Night, wind, heart, waiting for break of day
Night, wind, heart, waiting for break of day