And it is 10 o'clock, or close enough, time for Off the Hook here on WBAI New York.
And it is 10 o'clock, it could be yet much worse.
But if it could, it would.
Bonderli Bomper the best it's been for the worst.
I hope that him does good. Bonderli Bom!
and a very good evening to everyone this is off the hook I'm Emmanuel Goldstein and we're together
every week at this time from 10 to 11 talking about the newest in high technology and the
telephone system the internet and privacy concerns and all kinds of hacker issues don't forget hacker
meeting this Friday at the city core center from 5 p.m. to 8 p.m. just follow all the security guards
and we're usually hanging out by the pay phones talking to people all over the world sometimes
and most of them call us by the way a couple of interesting news items that I'm sure people
here would like to know about well I don't know if you'd like to know about it so much but
you should know about it all Californians may soon have to carry tamper-proof ID cards to prove they
are U.S. citizens I'm not kidding that's if the state's political leaders have their way
Republican governor Pete Wilson who has built his re-election campaign on a call for a crackdown on
illegal immigration has raised the issue once again he said a tamper-proof identification card
will be necessary if Proposition 187 is approved by California voters on November 8th that's next
Tuesday so if this concerns you and you want to contact all your friends and maybe make some new
friends in California and let them know that Proposition 187 is uh it's not cool um then
maybe now is the time to do so because next Tuesday people will vote on it and if they uh if they pass
this who knows who knows what it's going to lead to but um California supposedly will be one of the
first states to have this mandatory identification card that will prove that people are not those pesky
aliens that need to be uh driven out at all costs even cost to our privacy and freedom
speaking of privacy and freedom leads us to uh prisons and do you know this is something that
I'm sure Fiber Optic will uh take an interest in because he helped contribute to it the nation's state
and federal prison population has topped one million for the first time in history hitting one million
12,851 at the end of June everyone in prison at that time gets a special certificate because they
were part of this of the total 919,143 were in state prisons and 93,708 were in federal prisons
according to Justice Department statistics the total is more than double the 462,002 prison population
of December 31, 1984 they doubled it in 10 years less than 10 years at this rate
i don't want to think about it anyway uh the the state with the highest incarceration rate
guess anyone want to guess no it's not Pennsylvania it's Texas with um 545 people sentenced
for every 100,000 residents new york was number six we have 361 people behind bars for every 100,000 people
what are we heading towards i don't know i don't know where we're going okay we're going to be
talking about digital telephony tonight uh and uh we'll be getting to that in just a moment
um first couple of announcements the chaos communications congress organized by the
chaos computer club and traditionally taking place between christmas and new year's will
this year again be offering a lot of interesting issues for the hitchhikers on the data highway and
everybody else after taking place in hamburg for 10 years this year the congress opens itself in terms
of both content and structure to a larger public will be held in the former art exhibition hall
right in the center of berlin city on breitscheidplatz opposite the thing with the german name now that
computers have turned out to be the most important new medium questions of conception of this new medium
which will even overtake tv in importance that's right are gaining more and more social relevance terms
such as interactive tv should contain much more than just a buy button on the remote control which
persuades you to buy any product you see in the commercials to achieve this visions are needed
thanks to their self-created freely accessible computer networks which can offer a lot more speaking
of interactivity the hackers do not only reach the children's rooms in the information society but also
get into difficulties caused by large combines that are more and more regarding the networks as a field of
activity the industry is tending to lay a direct glass fiber connection right into our wallets and the
commercialization of information information ways involved threatens organizations that have a
social interest such as environmental or human rights organizations parties or trade unions whose
aims are not in the first place financial ones well it goes on for quite some time actually
to keep the congress as easy to understand as possible in terms of technical jargon there will be
introductory workshops on some issues that is the internet the hack center and the data filling
stations in every room will be offering the possibility of critical and creative use of technology
it's happening december 27th through the 29th in berlin and uh they have uh prices for various uh
various combinations if you're there for three days uh it costs 42 deutschmarks which uh i think is
about 42 dollars now if the dollar continues to uh do what it's been doing over the last few years
uh if you're a member of the chaos communications uh club that would be 23 deutschmarks and if you're
a journalist it jumps up to 75 deutschmarks and if you're a commercial in any way it's a hundred
and if you're just there for one day 20 deutschmarks for regular people 12 for pupils and unemployed
persons anyway if you want to call them up uh you can reach them at 011 country code 49 city code 40
telephone number 490-3757 and i would give you an email address except i don't see one here
if we get one we'll uh we'll certainly pass it along chaos this is the 11th chaos communications congress
again taking place december 27th through 29th in berlin so uh that ought to be interesting i've never been
into one of those i don't really know uh what to expect as far as that kind of thing goes who knows
it might be uh hope in german it's quite possible all right um before we get on to our discussion uh
tonight as to uh digital telephony what it means to all of us we have a responsibility now uh first of
all a couple of things a couple of uh good bits of news bai bai listeners as we have said many many
times have power that's right we have lots and lots of power tied up in our big or little hands or or
or what have you we can get things changed we can get things done in all kinds of uh of marvelous ways
and that has happened yet again that's right a few weeks ago we revealed a uh a scandal the scandal was
that um a certain company was giving out information that perhaps they really shouldn't have given out
um the information basically is that people's names not names actually addresses were
given out uh if you gave their phone numbers by calling up for this house of windsor catalog well
that has changed the number is still there the number is still there but when you call it it does
not give out the street address anymore it gives out the street but not the full street address and
that's something that has to be attributed to people calling and complaining it's not 100 of the way
there but it's it's getting there it's getting there when they when they don't give out this
information at all for anybody calling in with with your phone number uh then i think we will have
succeeded in in stopping this kind of invasion of privacy worked for even unlisted phone numbers all
you had to have was someone's phone number and you were able to get their address well now you're just
able to get their street but that's still a little bit too much also from what i've heard if you call
the number more than three times from the same phone line it will no longer work from that phone line
that's something that i have not yet verified but i have heard that that is true so that's something
you might want to consider again the number is 1-800-433-3210 uh and that is um for the uh
house of windsor catalog by the way every time you enter somebody's phone number they will get
a big red glossy catalog in the mail so you might want to watch that okay and as far as um other
rip off services ripping off either your privacy or your money we've been talking over the past
several weeks about 1-800 call info the mci service that charges 75 cents if you ask for a number now
it's okay to offer services no one is objecting to that but when you make an 800 number automatically
bill back when somebody asks for a certain question it's basically duplicating a 900 number
and it really shouldn't be an 800 number if it's doing the exact same thing as a 900 number
and what this does is um is is make people hesitate when they see an 800 number they don't know if they're
going to be billed if they ask a certain question or if they uh perform a certain function and it's
basically devaluing the whole 800 service for every company every person that has an 800 number that's
another reason why people should be very upset at this apart from the consumer reason that you're
getting charged for something that uh you really shouldn't be charged for people install 900
blocks so that this kind of thing does not happen companies like mci come in and bypass it by putting
it on an 800 number and on top of that the worst of all when they have these little advertisements on
television they uh don't even say what company they are they don't say that it's mci well we say it's mci
one thing though last week we called them and we got them to tell us what time it was in pensacola
florida and we noted that the time was an hour off from our time at first we thought that was their
mistake but i have done some research into this and it turns out really fascinating actually that
pensacola is as far west as chicago so therefore it's in the central time zone so yes mci was correct
in giving us the time and they also saved us 36 cents from calling the time locally so you can use
this service for uh for some things but uh i don't suggest using it very often for uh for information
as it costs the exact same amount as regular information and the advertising practices they use
are a bit uh well deceiving is is a gentle way of saying it let's uh let's give them a call now as we
we'll do virtually every week i think and i think a lot of people should call them too just to see how
they are well okay we'll have to call it online that uh has paid the touchtone fee let's try this one
one-800-call-info director assistance for only 75 cents how would you like to build your car
uh actually i was curious about something you um you also connect calls after uh you give out the
phone number yes we do at what rate uh would i pay for that well sir if you want specific rate
information i'll have to transfer you to customer service uh customer service of what company mci oh
so this is actually mci yes this is mci product okay because i didn't see that in the advertisement
anywhere okay all right well you know what i think i'll try back a little what what time do you have
down there right now what time yeah it is um 12 after nine so you you must be in central time zone
yes we are and you're in pensacola right yes okay well you know what i'm going to call back probably
later on tonight close to midnight and then i'll have a little bit more time to chat okay sir okay
well thanks very much for being there well thank you for using 1-800-call-info okay good night good night
yeah well that was nice we uh we had a little fun with them and uh they were uh very friendly to us
okay well i just think we're adding such community to the whole phone system here and it's an 800
number so uh i don't ever have to worry about being billed for that now do i okay digital telephony
that's the serious subject for tonight um it's it's passed it's something that has happened we've been
talking about this for uh i guess a year now or so um it's basically a rather forbidding law that
requires uh manufacturers of uh of phone systems central offices pbx is that kind of thing to
install uh mechanisms that make it easier for law enforcement to tap into the system um as far as
what specifically was uh what was passed and what was what was not passed we're going to ask our
expert guest tonight uh dave banasar from uh epic uh electronic privacy information center david are you
there that i am how you doing pretty good you're down there in washington dc or actually somewhere
else i think in the burbs okay in the burbs um what exactly was passed and what wasn't passed is
this as bad as it was when they first introduced it or should we be happy should we be sad what
well to uh to go into my ross perot imitation you can you can take a big old ugly hog and you can
put a wig on it you can put a dress on it you can even put some makeup on it but it's still a big old
ugly hog i see your point so this is uh basically the same bill that they've been they being the fbi has
been asking for for a couple years now but it's uh you know it's got some window dressing on it now
uh they've tried to make it sound like they've compromised but uh they basically get the same
things that they've been asking for uh all along now uh what's some of the window dressing that might
have changed that uh could have fooled people um well they've put some uh what they want to call
privacy protections on it uh but if you actually look at them and read the text of the bill rather than
uh certain uh certain uh certain press releases uh they don't look that great after all um frankly
they're uh rather trivial uh anything specific uh well they've uh they've put some restrictions on
collecting records uh from online services but uh if you read the actual text of the bill it still
require it still allows the police to pretty much get access to anything they want with a subpoena
uh and then they have to go up to a really weak warrant provision to get the rest of the information
uh but they can still find out who you are they can find out how long you've been on what your
information is uh perhaps even who you've been talking to now could they not have found that out in the
past um well it depended on the service provider the one i used down here had a uh had uh rules that
said that uh they couldn't get anything from the police couldn't get anything without a court order
uh and this lowers that to a uh to a subpoena which is anything a a government bureaucrat can ask
for when when i was working for the public defender's office about five years ago i could send out subpoenas
uh-huh so it's it's that much easier now for them to do that right now tell us something about
the history of this law where was it introduced and uh what finally happened uh well this has been around
for about three years now uh it started out the first the first bill was uh in 1991 and it really
more dealt with the encryption side of things but it had basically the same wording in some of its
provisions that one was rejected after a large number of people called up and screamed and yelled
at their congressman well what wasn't the original reason why people were so upset because uh they said
that the taxpayers would have to fund this uh well the bill in 91 didn't have anything one way or the
other but uh there was a general consensus that the way it was written it would have uh required that
all the phone companies and telecommunications companies decrypt all communications that went
through their systems which means they would have had to prohibit private encryption systems
i see um the 92 bill died because uh because basically it would have uh been paid for by higher
rates on telephone systems and and that was the main reason why it died because of that well there was a
lot of reasons i mean there was obviously all the privacy reasons and the phone companies were none too
interested in in rewiring all the systems at their own expense and then hoping that the public utility
commissions would allow them to raise their rates um which is one of the reasons why it passed this
time uh one of the deals that was cut in the end on this bill was that the phone companies got a half
billion dollars worth of taxpayer money to be able to rewire their systems um and uh well there's a few
other reasons but uh that's one of the main ones uh so now we're up to 92 what happened in 93
uh in 93 uh when clinton came in apparently the first thing that the fbi the fbi people were saying
was that they wanted to make this their number one legislative proposal uh they waited until about
november or so and then they started talking about it seriously and then when 94 came around they
actually introduced a bill uh this time around they uh they got some people to help them out they uh
uh they uh convinced a couple senators that this was a good thing and uh eventually our friends at the
electronic frontier foundation rolled over and uh decided to join them in supporting this bill
that's something that's been a topic uh all over the net as to just why the eff did that any any
any suspicions well i i think one of the reasons is sort of uh what we would call washingtonitis
it's a propensity for a somebody to come into town and want to become a big player here in the
washington scene uh ever since they fired their entire staff and well except for mike godwin and and
moved down to uh dc they just have not been the same organization uh these days their entire funding
except for some money that kapor gives them comes from industry so they're basically a trade association
now and they're probably not in much danger of being called a hacker defense organization anymore
i don't think there's any threat of that happening no except maybe in a couple uh press releases that
they send out uh-huh they want to make it look like they're still a good guy so who opposed this
uh well um we worked very hard against it and we worked closely with uh voters telecom watch which
is a project that's based up by you uh and society for electronic access uh the american civil liberties
union uh came in and uh wrote a very strong letter and and uh lobbied congress very hard
uh the u.s privacy council which is a which is sort of an overall group of a number of different
privacy groups and consumer groups uh worked to uh try and kill this bill and a lot of people thousands
of people called faxed emailed their congressmen their senators asked them to kill this bill and
it came very close well now that uh election day is merely one week away perhaps this would be a good
time to um to mention some of the people that may have supported it or or not supported it uh well
one of the problems is when they passed the thing in the middle of the night a couple weeks ago they
passed it without taking an actual vote about who voted for it and who voted against it so basically
they they got through the process without leaving any fingerprints for the most part on uh on who
did what they can pass bills without taking votes well uh they can if uh they do something called
suspension of the rules in the house which is basically how they pass just about everything that ever
passes over there uh if not more than one third of the uh of the congress opposes the bill they don't
take a uh they take a voice vote but not a written vote on who uh on the uh vote and a uh there's a
similar measure that happened in the senate well no there must be some leaders though that have spoken
out against it um there was a number of people who at one point or another were opposing the bill uh
senator uh warner from texas or from uh virginia senator wallop from uh wyoming uh senator metzenbaum
from ohio they all at one point uh were holding up the bill from being passed um congressman brooks
for a while looked like he was opposing the bill but uh eventually he uh rolled over and uh and
shoved the thing through on the house side do you know anything about uh new york representatives
no i don't uh-huh and it would be kind of hard to find out wouldn't it
um yeah as far as i know neither of the senators played any kind of role in the in the bill one way
or the other
wow so now what does this mean to the average person i mean someone who who doesn't have anything to hide
why should they be concerned um well i mean that's always a question about privacy you know why should
you worry about it if you don't have anything to hide but uh you know i don't remember the last
last time somebody was pleased about seeing their say their medical records on the front page of the
new york times or the or their consumer records used by some clown who decides to buy himself a house
down in florida using your good credit rating um there are a lot of reasons for privacy a lot of uh
uh of basic human needs to to have what you want known about yourself limited to the people that you
want to know about and this bill is basically one step and and a somewhat small step but still a step
towards designing all new technologies with surveillance built in and the point of all this
at some point is going to be a sort of enforced compliance of uh sort of like political correctness
is now on a much bigger scale so now technically um any any new phone system that is designed has to
have something built in right the the what is supposed to happen is any standard setting body for
telecommunications that's things like uh ansi the american national standards institute uh the tia any of
those groups are supposed to get together among themselves and develop standards based on what the fbi
wants and the fbi wants remote access to communications and phone number information instantaneously
uh at remote government access centers and these groups are supposed to design this so just like they
would be designing a uh a new spec for how caller id is supposed to work or how uh how anything else
uh you know call forwarding or a new service is supposed to work they have to design everything with
the specification of surveillance in the back of their heads and if they can't get the surveillance
built in they're going to get into trouble well do you have any idea though how how this is going to
actually work will will the feds be able to simply dial a special code into any phone system and be able to
listen uh the way the language is written is uh is that they're supposed to be able to uh have to have a
phone company person there to turn it on uh however in some of the legislative hearings uh the director
of the fbi lewis free was uh discussing about how on the smaller phone systems that they could easily design
the software to make sure that nobody had to be there when they turned it on to save the phone companies
money of course yeah okay make everybody happier in the process that i feel much better myself
dave banasar from uh electronic uh privacy information center i'm getting that right
right okay uh tell us something about your group uh well we're a public interest group uh based down
here in the belly of the beast in washington dc uh we used to be the washington office of computer
professionals for social responsibility uh now we're a joint project of theirs and a civil liberties
group called the fund for constitutional government so there is still a cpsr right
cpsr is a california based organization with uh twenty some chapters uh and we're still a project
of theirs we're just not the washington office anymore i see how can people get a hold of you
uh well you can uh email us at info at epic dot org or uh we have a lot of information up at the cpsr
ftp site at cpsr dot org i'm sure there's a lot of people wringing their hair now or uh saying that
they don't have net access how do they get a hold of you uh well they can uh call at 202-544-9240
okay good old-fashioned telephones that may or may not be listened to uh depending on whether the feds
have gotten around to you yet uh it's uh it's pretty scary um and it seems to be in in um in tune with a
lot of other developments that are going on i don't know if you heard the stories we were reading before
about the uh the california situation with the id cards or the prison population do you think this
is all related somehow uh well there certainly is a a general uh measure towards more uh law and order
at this moment the uh the war on drugs being the most popular thing at the moment well you don't want
to be accused of being soft on crime now do you um well i'm not running for any office so actually i
don't have to worry about it thankfully that's true but maybe one day we'll all have to not be soft on
crime i may regret this radio show yeah it could come back to haunt you in your political career yeah
wow it's um in terms of id cards uh there are certainly a lot of parallels uh there's the uh
government tessera program which is to uh design a clipper-like chip which will go into id cards for
secure net access and there's been some talk in the government about using that through the postal
service for a lot of other uh services and uh the postal service has said several times that they'd
love to be able to issue an id card probably because they have no other reason to exist
going they certainly can't deliver the mail anymore yeah well now that's um it's depressing
one of the things that we're hearing do you think there's anything that i mean is is the clipper chip
do you think that's the next thing that's going to go through now um well the clipper chip was a
government standard and they've already adopted as the standard uh the next question is whether they're
going to try and make it mandatory and um shortly before the digital telephony bill passed the director
of the fbi was at a conference sponsored by everybody's friend dorothy denning and uh at this
conference he was uh saying that if if the clipper chip did not become a standard that everybody used
criminals included that he would go back down to capitol hill in a few years and ask for legislation to make
it mandatory uh there's already a bill that was introduced at the end of last session of congress
that would uh allow the fbi and the nsa to basically control the government crypto standards setting
uh which is very similar to what free is asking for and of course uh that would also in order to be
effective would have to be um linked to something that would forbid uh your own independent form of
encryption right right uh i was at a technical conference today sponsored by acm and there was a lot of
discussion about key escrow there and uh
there are still a lot of things that they aren't going to be able to solve if uh two rogue agents uh
people who just decide to go outside the escrow scheme want to they can always do that and there is
basically no real technical way of that being prevented there of course could be some sort of
law pass that makes it illegal some sort of federal penalty for doing such a thing right but uh with
law enforcement it's very hard to enforce things like that well it would be used selectively against
people that they had some other reason to nail and didn't have a didn't weren't able to do it and
had this tool to use against them then we're speaking with dave banasar from the electronic
privacy information center down in washington dc if you have any questions concerning digital
telephony or electronic freedom privacy issues uh things like that or maybe if you just want to
get more involved in the governmental process uh give us a call 212-279-3400 and um we may also
be joined by fiber optic uh later on if he's able to uh to reach us i know his uh his funds were
were being depleted so he may have run out of money for uh for the phone uh so we'll we'll see if we
hear from him in a little bit 212-279-3400 let's take our first phone call good evening you're on
oh actually uh what i wanted to talk about was the um in next wednesday uh right after the election
the public service commission is in new york is going to begin hearings on the plan that would
determine how we're going to be charged for telephone service for the next seven years it's the
new york 9x's uh in incentive uh regulation plan which uh uh uh just came out of settlement uh hearings
which were on a confidential basis they finally released uh the plan with about 17 signatures
uh people like mci and at&t and uh cable television didn't sign it but it's going up for unless they
get another delay it's going up for litigation starting next wednesday up in albany and uh so far
the plan calls for certain rate reductions for uh customers uh in the new york area nassau some
customers will get a reduction on their flat rate a charge from 2227 down to 2016 uh people in great
neck for instance would go from 1802 to 1665 and uh perhaps the most important part of this whole plan
is the elimination of the touchstone fee once and for all oh yes that that would apply to about 78
percent of the uh people we're going to have one one heck of a party when that happens
but of course there there are many ramifications of this it may be that if the regulation isn't
stringent and very uh specific they could be earning crazily because they are talking about
reducing the workforce from nine to thirteen thousand which would mean their productivity
costs and everything would be uh give them a tremendous bottom line where they make tremendous
profits so uh the so it is going to be a very important uh okay so so so just to sum up uh when
does this begin and how long does it last oh well the uh hearings begin though on um wednesday november
ninth up in albany uh they may have some in new york and uh i'll call you and let you know if that
takes place but i'd just like to mention for people in uh uh nassau county for instance and uh suffolk
county and in westchester county uh there are an important reductions in a lot of the flat rate
charges for residential customers now there's a problem about what about new york city is new york
city going to get any reductions on their basic rate because new york city except for little spots
in queens and possibly excuse me satin island don't have an opportunity for flat rate service
so uh but the um there is money because the commission had found in a previous case
and they haven't paid out all this money yet that the phone company had earned too much money
and according to the old way of regulation by rate of return that they were supposed to give
back a lot of this money now uh the uh the only application that was made was number one the
elimination of the 50 cent touchtone charge for residential customers business customers will come
in on this in a couple of years but uh the residential will get it assuming that the plan goes into effect
in january of 95 that'll take effect now the but uh i want to point out that buffalo erie county and nassau
county had a representative into in these proceedings which resulted in having some give back of basic
charges to some customers um but uh the city of new york was there but uh they had a representative
there but the representative apparently uh didn't uh have anything to offer about what could be done
for new york city's customers who only have message rate it might be that they should institute a
a flat rate uh option for various communities well that would certainly be a very popular thing to
have here in new york i want to thank you for uh for the info and i'm sure we'll be hearing more about
this in uh in the weeks ahead thanks again i believe we have fiber optic with us fiber are you there
yes we do all right fiber dave banassar is also on the line how you doing hi and this is probably
the first time uh you guys have talked since fiber went away it's been a while yeah we're uh discussing
the digital telephony law then and how it's going to um going to affect people fiber maybe you have
some observations on that or questions well yeah i mean uh i was curious i mean i remember what the
whole thing encompassed and i thought that the industry was just wasn't going to cooperate and
they didn't have uh... any corporations backing them so uh... like what exactly is it going to
entail is my question are they actually mandating that uh... telecommunications companies are now going
to have to uh... build in these eavesdropping mechanisms uh... well they're requiring the all the
standard setting bodies to uh... to do the standards for it and if the bodies don't do it then the fcc is
going to step in and set the requirements so uh... yes they are wow uh... in exchange the uh... the telecom
companies get a half a billion dollars to play with wow and we have to raise that money somehow
and we got to do it quick too because it's coming out of our pockets save your penny jars
so uh... mark are you surprised by that um i'm really surprised it seems like so much uh changes
since i went away yeah but uh i see i see two problems the the first problem is that people
shouldn't lose sight of the fact that there's uh plenty of uh phone company type testing mechanisms
that are already inherent in most of the infrastructure of the telephone company as it is now
and uh... if uh hackers can figure out how to use these type of mechanisms to eavesdrop on conversations
the way things are now
then uh... i see things only getting worse if
they're going to have to engineer mechanisms that are going to allow people like the fbi many of whom
aren't technically inclined
to be able to eavesdrop remotely
and
by facilitating a mechanism like that it seems like
it's going to be a a whole lot easier for
the wrong types of people to abuse that mechanism
uh... yeah it's uh... it's it's definitely going to be some uh... some rough riding ahead as far as
uh... privacy and telecommunications go
uh... dave is there any kind of uh... counter-strike to this in the works or
or is it is the battle over or are there other things we can do
uh... well next session they're going to have to appropriate the money to spend the
the uh... five hundred million
uh... and uh... there's certainly an opportunity at that point
uh... that we're going to
try and lead the charge to uh... to get the money struck out of the bill
which means they could uh... they could demand all they want but they wouldn't have any money to spend
and the phone companies won't do a thing without the money
uh-huh do you think there's a reasonable chance we can do that
uh... i think it's worth the effort
uh... if nothing else we'll drive them up the wall
yeah
well through ulcers or something
uh-huh
okay let's take a couple more phone calls
good evening you're on
hello uh... i was speaking
i was listening to this and uh... you know concerning these id cards
don't be surprised if you hear something like uh... if the media may raise the word
eminent domain when you hear that you know you've got real big problems
well
do you want to go into a little more detail on that
uh...
well concern uh... how can i explain this
uh... the situation is that uh... you know you know people will have you know
wow i didn't expect to get on this soon
but nonetheless uh... you know it's i'm surprised
i don't even know where to start
i was i had another thing i was going to speak about a little
a little more on the light side and some more on the technical
well let's stick to this for now
okay
eminent domain
it's a situation where you'd have a number of civil liberties groups
they're already on the case here
and
that's all i know it's is
there's going to be a point where eminent domain is like we must keep order
and so we're going to have to you know we're going to have to deal with this in this manner
uh... so basically a crisis situation
exactly when we know we have an administration
that seems to be very professional at creating crises
thanks to the media of the established media if you will
right
and the crisis in the california case would be the illegal aliens
exactly
exactly
okay
thanks for the call
all right
okay bye
take care
uh... fiber i mailed you some of those articles too did you get them
yeah yes i did today
and um... well one of them i should congratulate you for helping us make the million mark in prison
i i feel lucky to have been able to contribute to something like that
and you do get a plaque for this don't you
oh i hope so
maybe i guess i'll find out when i leave
i mean they couldn't have done it without uh... without people like you all over the world
the country anyway
oh because you're leaving so soon they may kind of uh... try and cheat you out of that plaque
yeah but for every one person that leaves another two come in
uh... it's getting to be more than that
well your prison is incredibly overcrowded isn't it
oh yeah
in fact uh... the actual statistics are that this place was built for roughly 180 people
and uh... right now as i speak there are well over 300 people
that's just in your little section though
i'm talking about in the whole camp
the whole camp was built for 180 people
two buildings
but you're not talking about the place across the street
you know that
that's the fci
that houses i think about a thousand people
right okay
talking just the camp
just alone where we live here
uh...
it was supposed to be for 180 people and uh... there's over 300 living here
amazing
yeah they have people uh... living in hallways and tv rooms
uh... no just just the tv rooms
tv rooms okay
that's uh...
in fact if you could get close enough to the building and look
into the window
of the upstairs tv room you'd see
the window filled with beds
well we could try that but we'd be shot while we're out there
so i don't know if it's worth the effort
become a permanent resident there
yeah that's true too they might ask you to stay
yeah
all right let's uh... take another phone call
good evening you're on
hi
i have a question about uh... the 950 exchange
can you speak up a bit
yeah i have a question about the 950 exchange
yes
is that free or
uh... 950 is is free
um...
maybe fiber can can explain it better than i can
well uh...
it certainly is free
what else did you want to know about it
i mean do you have any other questions about it
yeah i have a question about like amnex and tvx's
okay
uh... i want to know like uh... about a and i and uh...
and like what it is really
what is a and i
okay that's a good question
sure it's a good question
well uh... in brief at least it's a means of
a switching system
basically a computer that processes your phone calls
it's a means for it to signal to some other computer somewhere
whether it be another switching system or something
basically your telephone number
is is the main purpose of
let's let's say for example you're calling an 800 number
your switching system obviously knows what your phone number is since you're directly connected to it and it is your switching system it processes your calls
so uh... what it's going to do when uh... when it does a connection to an 800 number
leaving out all the technical stuff that happens in between which isn't really important
the important thing is that your local switching system the computer itself
is going to signal your your telephone number to the switch at the other end and that's how it knows where you're calling from
this has nothing to do with caller id you should bear that in mind
yeah well caller id while it may get the same information in the end uh... it gets it in a totally different way
yeah and uh... different equipment is is required and all that kind of thing
um... okay but i guess uh... i guess maybe what he was getting at was uh... is a and i passed on when you use a 950 number
it uh... wasn't in the past i mean that may have changed
traditionally 950s were known as a feature group b number
and the feature groups go
it was reserved for 950s and
all they were were uh...
the predecessor basically to equal access
i mean the only reason they're holding on to the 950 exchange is that uh...
i know numerous companies are using it for purposes that have absolutely nothing to do with long distance
uh... such as dominoes
right
initially it was strictly for long distance carriers and there were no numbers overnight uh... one thousand nine hundred ninety nine
uh... they only assigned from uh... zero zero zero zero zero to one nine nine nine
uh... obviously now that's changed and also the purpose
for the exchange has changed
so it's certainly possible that
today
they could be passing a and i simply because they're
offering newer services that had nothing to do with its original purpose
950 numbers are still a way to uh... to make a
a cheap phone call without having all those surcharges if you can find a company that actually offers you the service
um... for instance cable and wireless uh... metro media
uh... you can
basically use a code
call a number someplace and pay
almost the same amount that you would pay if you dial direct from your home
uh... as opposed to at&t mci sprint who will all give you
large surcharges
uh... for making a call in the first place
so nine five votes apparently allow you to do that
uh... fiber how you doing on time
uh... i have about
three minutes left
unfortunately uh... i'm not going to be able to call back
or why is that where the show ends
well i've been waiting here for quite some time and uh...
a little bit of stupidity happened tonight that
caused them to close down the entire administration building
uh... what uh... is a little bit of stupidity or don't you want to get into it
uh... it involved apparently at least from what i heard
somebody had attempted to use one of the
pan in-house telephones
in uh... one of the off limits rooms down in the administration building
and apparently uh... set off a red light somewhere on uh...
some main phone either in the office in the admin building or down at the fci
uh... and uh... apparently they radioed up and uh...
told the people up here that somebody had tried to use uh...
one of the in-house telephones
and uh... they decided that they were going to lock down the entire building and not
let anybody get into it
wow so uh... that happened until just recently i guess
oh that happened tonight
but they let everybody back in
or are you calling from someplace else
calling from my housing unit
oh i see
so we're basically uh... roughly 160 people using two telephones
oh that's bad
well so there's a whole line of people there waiting to use it
i bet you're the only one that has a radio show to be on
yeah i guess so
although i don't want to jump to conclusions well
maybe the next guy can call
have the next guy call us and uh...
we can put him on instead
well fiber we're not on next week because uh... we have to do the post-mortem for the election uh... election day and and and fret about what's ahead
uh... but we will be on again in two weeks now you're going to be out on the 22nd
that's right yeah tuesday the 22nd
okay that means you'll be here live in the studio on the 23rd
that's right
we're looking forward to that like like nothing
yeah
even more than thanksgiving the day after
well that was just my magic click if anybody else heard it
okay so you have what about a minute now
uh... a few seconds now
a few seconds okay well say whatever you want to say
uh... well i look forward to uh... coming back obviously and
i look forward to having a lot of fun uh... that wednesday the 23rd
okay
sounds good to me
dave you have anything to say in the last couple of seconds with fiber
uh... congratulations i'll uh... be seeing you out uh... out here in the so-called free world
yep see you on the other side
okay
well we'll let you uh... click off naturally fiber
uh... graceful exit
yeah graceful exit and uh... we're going to take some more phone calls here
uh... 212-279-3400
uh... there he goes
uh... we're here with dave banasar
uh... you're still with us in the free world right
uh... well here in maryland at least
okay close enough
good evening you're on the air
good evening two privacy items
first to try to give a simpler answer to the caller
who asked about a and i that's that is basically for eight hundred and also
nine hundred uh... service operators one reason i have eight hundred service at home
um... is so that i can extract the phone numbers of people who might not want to give me
their number it won't show on my call id
but if they're calling from the u.s. or canada
uh... their area code and phone number will appear
on my eight hundred bill at the end of the cycle when when the bill comes
well do you know if you use either will tell or cable and wireless it will show up in your caller id box
or cable and wireless thank you so i must get
now will tell do a nice uh... credit investigation of you before they let you sign up by the way
oh that's nice
i don't know about cable and wireless
um... and will tell have an unpleasant connection with
uh... sort of ripoff company encore but
so it's will tell and cable and wireless right
which could let some of us drop our uh...
um... eight hundred service for that reason of course the five hundred and the seven hundred service
let you do it either way you can
give people a call reversing pin and then
same as with eight hundred service their calling numbers appear on your bill
they pay for the call then their calling area code and number
do not appear on your bill and what i do is when i want to extract it
i have the
i will sometimes have the non
where they try to pay for it themselves it will go into a line that i use only for outgoing calls
and don't answer or have any rings on incoming
forcing them to use the code and make me pay for the call incoming
but it lets me extract the number when i get my next bill for the at&t true connections uh... service
and i trust the other companies when they introduce the five hundred service it'll work the same way
that's that's quite an operation you've got going over there
uh... no
like you're you're running a small government
who likes to be able i'm the guy who thanked you so much for the thing about the windsor catalog
right did did you get yours
oh well i never put my own
oh okay
but what i did check all my numbers and happily by having completely unlisted service
um...
they said i'm sorry we cannot help you on all my regular and ringmate numbers so i was very relieved
well that's not necessarily the reason because we did have unlisted numbers show up
with addresses numbers that had always been unlisted
uh... and i i appreciated that i noticed that and um... anyway uh... what was the other thing we can before i go to my second point i was going to say about this um...
eight hundred
oh i was talking with bell canada who are the local company for quebec and ontario provinces and they were saying how they always get the number on their call id they call it call display
when people call from the states hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of miles away
though never the name if it's uh... involves enhanced call id
the caller's name if it's a listed party seems to never cross the border
well not not yet anyway
i'm right
uh... okay now uh... quickly what is your second point because we have other calls
um... their trial period for the uh... block the blocker
in other words star seven seven or uh... one one seven seven or um... uh... anonymous call rejection
right
supposed to have ended october 31st but they've extended it for whatever silly reason
to december 31st so hopefully about new year's
we'll start being able to actually use star 77 in the rest
uh... 9x customers in the rest of new york state
block those people that uh... dare to be anonymous
okay thanks for the info
you can do that now uh... also uh... with hardware
uh... there is hardware that will detect
um... a call that comes in that's unavailable
uh... not unavailable a private number
and we'll play a message for them
um... but that does result in a call completion
uh... jump onto my soapbox here
if i can for a second
this really does
seem uh... except for that small
group of people that seem to want it
uh... like the uh... proceeding caller it just seems like another phone company scheme to try and make it as hard as possible to keep your uh... uh... uh... your anonymity and to enhance the caller id service i think this has very little to do with privacy
absolutely i agree
i i look at it as more of a toy and i think that's most what most of our listeners uh... um... look at it as something to play with something to figure out how to defeat or what does under certain uh... circumstances so in that regard they may seem a little eager
uh... to see these things but yeah the the privacy implications are obviously far more important
and uh... they should be looked upon very very closely
uh... the whole caller id uh... argument i i still do not agree with at all as far as uh... uh... uh... this is going to cut down on harassing phone calls i think all this does is make uh... for this this air of confrontation before you even pick up the telephone
uh... i can't tell you now how many times
uh... you accidentally dial a number and right away your phone rings back with someone demanding to know why you called them
um... you know it it it really makes for unpleasantness
anyway
212-279-3400 let's uh...
fit a few more in
good evening
yes um...
good evening
i um...
i'd like to know about that that number
um... to uh...
in washington dc on information on the clipper chip bill that was passed
hello
yeah dave i think that's you
uh... you want uh... our number the bill number or congress's number
uh... your number
it's uh... 202-544-9240
and uh... if you have any sort of online service uh... you can get copies of the bill off our uh...
copy serve america online or the net
okay thank you
uh... by the way
um... uh... i'd like to know if uh... uh... mr goldstein if you're familiar with an article in the new york times magazine on june 12th
uh... dealing with um... uh...
the battle over the clipper chip technology was an article by steven levy
uh... discussing um... uh... man by the name of whitfield duffy who was a cryptographer
uh... uh... who uh... who made break uh... who had some breakthroughs in the science of cryptology which could ensure um... some kind of privacy on the line or some kind of defense against uh... something like clipper chip technology
uh... yeah i did see the article um... the cryptography is is not my field of expertise but uh... it certainly is something that a lot of people are are paying strict attention to these days
and um... the group of people that i feel more comfortable with are known as cypherpunks
and um... i i think we have to look towards people like that
yes they they they also covered uh... cypherpunks uh... in the article also
uh... right i think they were on the front cover actually
uh... no uh... mr duffy was on the front cover
oh okay i'm thinking of something else then
yeah gilmore and hughes they mentioned uh... gilmore and hughes as um... uh... uh...
uh... to uh... cypherpunks who were part of part of that group
uh-huh
okay thanks for the call
thank you
um... dave you let something slip there you uh... you guys actually use uh... aol and compu-serve
yeah god forbid
uh... we do but uh...
we can't all be uh... net denizens and it's uh... important to uh... to uh... get our message out as uh... as wide as possible
uh-huh but is the reason because uh... you can't get access any other way
uh... well no i have uh... full net access
but uh... through a regular service provider but i know a lot of people don't
uh-huh oh i see so it's for their benefit
right
because they can't get out from there okay
god forbid i don't use a compu-serve for the enjoyment
well i was i was concerned i just felt if if you had a problem you needed a helping hand
so okay but uh... but people do need to know that uh...
that you mean
that the net is not uh... what uh... what what compu-serve aol and all those other services have in mind
it's it's something much more magical and mystical
uh... yeah i believe that's what it is
yeah well it's supposed to be anyway
good evening you're on
speak up
uh... hello
yes go ahead
yes um...
recently i got uh... a call from nine x
and they told me that someone got hold of my uh...
credit card and calling card number
and uh... did about six hundred dollars worth of calls
okay
and how can i protect myself against this thing in the future
well uh... the nine x calling card is um...
physically it's it's it's pretty secure because it only has four digits on it
doesn't have your phone number on it
however uh... did you order a nine x calling card
uh... yes i did and i uh... i used it a couple times at the airport
okay someone could have looked over your shoulder
someone could have been tapping into the line and recording the touch tones
there's all kinds of different ways
the important thing though for you to know is that you're not liable for those calls
all right good
even if nine x had not notified you if you see something show up on your bill it does not belong to you
uh... even if somebody looks over your shoulder that doesn't make you guilty of a crime
uh... these are digits and it's an inherently insecure system to start with
right
we had it we had a situation not too long ago where nine x
mailed us a calling card we didn't ask for and they mailed it to the wrong address
the person at that address opened it said hey this isn't mine
uh... wrote on the envelope send back
and nine x put that envelope into another envelope and sent it to our proper address
basically telling us we don't care that other people have looked at your calling card here it is
you know
i see
yeah so it's not something that i would worry about too much
but definitely keep an eye on your phone bill
okay all right thank you very much
thanks for calling
hey we're out of time dave thanks very much for uh... stopping in yet again
um... some of you might have seen uh... dave vanasar at the hope conference
uh... talking about uh... privacy
and uh... actually predicting quite accurately that this digital telephony thing could very well
well pass in the next couple of months well it did
um...
i guess uh... something like this kind of strengthens you in a way
makes you uh...
want to fight more but at the same time it definitely uh... has to be looked at as a defeat
and i have to uh... i have to agree with you dave as far as um...
um...
not siding with the electronic frontier foundation in this saying that it's some kind of a
a victory i still don't quite understand what that stance uh... comes from
well you know they get a lot of their money these days from at&t and microsoft so i guess if uh...
if you're at&t or bell atlantic and you got a half a billion dollars to play with you could call it a victory
yeah i guess that's that might be one way of looking at it we're going to hear more
on this whole issue in the in the weeks and months ahead
um... dave again thanks for stopping by and uh... we'll be in touch in the future
talk to you soon
okay
and uh... that is our show for tonight
we're not going to be on next week because of uh... post-election day
however we will be back in two weeks so we'll see you then
stay tuned for a re-broadcast of the wbai evening news
here on wbai new york good night
we'll be back in the next week
we'll be back in the next week
good evening in the news tonight the n double a c p lays off much of its national staff but officials say that while they're down the
they are not out. Anti-abortion activist Paul Hill is convicted of murder and could face the
death penalty. And we look at the legacy of progressive publisher Erwin Knoll. With these
and other stories, I'm Jose Santiago in New York with Werner Avery Brown in Washington,
and this is the news for Wednesday, November 2, 1994. First to Washington for the Pacifica
National News. Today, President Clinton campaigned for Democrats in Rhode Island.
Every voter in this country on Tuesday is just like somebody that has a remote control
on a movie about America. They can push forward, fast forward, or reverse. Do not push, reverse.
You will regret it, and so will America. In polls released today, Massachusetts Senator Ted Kennedy
is 15 points ahead of Republican challenger Mitt Romney. Texas Governor Ann Richards holds a
statistically insignificant edge over Republican George Bush. However, the poll was taken before
yesterday's endorsement of Richards by Texas billionaire Ross Perot. In Florida, Governor
Lawton Childs has moved slightly ahead of Republican Jeb Bush. In Chicago, a federal judge has ordered a
white family sued for racial harassment by their Puerto Rican neighbors to move out. The Ramos family
charged that the Crafts had threatened and harassed them ever since the Puerto Rican couple moved into
Chicago's northwest side in 1985. The Ramos family was suing the Crafts for $10 million. The judge had
held the Crafts in contempt of court for violating an order to stay at least 50 feet away from the Ramos
family and not to speak to them. Now, under an agreement reached between both sides, the Crafts must put
their house on the market immediately and be out of the house within 120 days. The man charged with
Saturday's shooting at the White House will be held without bond until his trial, so ruled the federal
judge today. The defense attorney had argued that Francisco Martin Duran was firing at a building and no
one was hurt, so the 26-year-old Colorado resident was not a danger to the public. The judge rejected that
argument and found there was probable cause to proceed to trial on four felony charges. Today's
Washington Post reports that prosecutors are considering charging Duran with attempted assassination
of the president. The paper says a co-worker of Duran's has told the FBI that Duran said he was going to
Washington to take out the president, and a map was found in Duran's truck with the words,
Kill the Prez, written on it. Workers at San Francisco's two daily newspapers are on strike today.
The 2,600 union members have been working without a contract for over a year. Pickets prevented
delivery trucks from leaving newspaper printing plants this morning. Larry Binsky has this report
from the San Francisco Bay Area. Thousands of subscribers to the Morning Chronicle and Afternoon
Examiner have reportedly pledged to cancel their subscriptions in case of a strike, and when
negotiations broke off late last night, the union employees began distributing a pre-printed
eight-page strike paper, the San Francisco Free Press. Morning Chronicle and Afternoon Examiner
officials have said they plan to continue publishing using replacement workers. However,
this morning, delivery trucks were vandalized outside a printing plant, and only a few thousand
of the Chronicle's usual half a million daily newspapers were available. The newspapers have a joint business
operation, but both have been losing circulation steadily over the past few years. The Chronicle is down
almost 10 percent in circulation this year alone. Striking workers are demanding wage increases and
an end to planned layoffs of delivery drivers and hundreds of young people who deliver the papers.
Observers have long predicted that a strike like this one would probably mean the end of one of the
newspapers, and should that happen, San Francisco will join a growing list of major cities in the
United States as a one-newspaper town. For Pacifica Network News, I'm Larry Benske.
Israel plans to seal the homes of three Palestinians who took part in last month's abduction of Israeli
Corporal Naqshan Voxman. The families have 48 hours to appeal. Although Israel has issued 8,000 new entry
permits to Palestinians, only a few hundred workers came across the border into Israel today. Israeli Prime
Minister Itzat Rabin has said that the border closure will be gradually lifted. And those are the stories
stopping the news.
Have employers found a loophole in the nation's anti-discrimination laws? That's the question
which confronted the U.S. Supreme Court today in the age discrimination case of Christine McKinnon.
But civil rights advocates argue a ruling from the High Court could reach well beyond the aging issue
in the graying baby boom generation. Pacifica's Don Rush reports.
The case involves Christine McKinnon. For 39 years, she had worked for the National Banner
Publishing Company as a secretary. But in 1990, at the age of 62, she was fired with one day's notice.
The publisher claimed the dismissal was part of downsizing the company. In turn, McKinnon filed a
lawsuit charging age discrimination. She noted that company officials had been pressuring her to retire.
But during discovery, she admitted secretly taking and copying confidential documents
to bolster her case. The company immediately said this constituted misconduct subject to dismissal.
And today, Attorney Eddie Whelan argued before the U.S. Supreme Court this invalidated her age
discrimination claim. Congress did not intend to reward and protect bad apples, bad employees.
That's why the statute specifically says that good calls for termination will not be a violation of
the statute. And the Congress recognized that not every plaintiff is going to have a remedy in a
discrimination case. But a number of justices appear to be skeptical. For instance, Justice Ruth Bader
Ginsburg noted that the statute says, thou shalt not discriminate. And conservative Justice Antonin
Scalia observed that Whelan's interpretation would open the door to close scrutiny of a plaintiff's
employment history. Michael Terry, McKinnon's attorney. It'll devastate an employee's opportunity to
bring a civil rights case. As I believe Justice Scalia mentioned, anybody who brings a lawsuit with this
type of defense out there is going to have their entire employment and pre-employment history gone
over. But the company played down the impact of a decision in their favor, saying it would affect
only a small percentage of cases. Again, company attorney Eddie Whelan. This is not something that's
going to knock out all discrimination plaintiffs. It's not a bar to all complaints. As I said earlier,
it's probably some ten thousandths of a percentage of the discrimination cases that have been
filed over the last four years that this even applies to. That's absolutely incorrect. Richard
Seymour with the Lawyers Committee on Civil Rights Under Law. The United States Chamber of Commerce,
which filed a brief on behalf of the employer, estimated that more than 40 percent of all
employees in the United States had some kind of significant omission or misstatement on their
application forms. Defense lawyers generally, when they hold their conferences and talk to each
other and write articles for each other to read, have treated this as the best Christmas present
they ever got. McKinnon's case is also expected to affect race and sex discrimination cases.
Helen Norton with the Women's Legal Defense Fund, which filed a brief in the case. If they can
basically argue, and they do, yes, we may have harassed her. We did commit sexual harassment,
but the bottom line is she puffed her resume. Or she took home, as Christine McKinnon did,
she took home some confidential documents because she was worried about losing her job.
They can completely insulate themselves from liability. The lower courts are divided on the
issue, and in the case of Christine McKinnon, she is seeking reinstatement of her lawsuit.
Her attorney, Michael Terry, says his client is asking for back pay and financial compensation.
My client, who is not here, who is in Nashville, tending to her 99-year-old mother, would say
that she would be very happy that other people didn't have to face this defense. That would be,
that would probably be enough for Christine McKinnon. Don Rush, Pacifica Network News, Washington.
The NAACP has stopped paying most of its professional staff.
The furlough took effect Monday, and officials hope it won't last more than a week or two.
But the move shows how desperate the situation has become at the national office,
which faces a $3.5 million deficit. Pacifica's Mark Beavis has more.
The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People has a national paid staff of about
100 people and a yearly budget of $15 million. But the organization's growing deficit of $3.5 million
is taking its toll. The Executive Committee made the decision last Saturday to lay off 80 people
without pay for two weeks, effective last Monday. The savings to the organization should come to about
$220,000 in salaries. Officials at the NAACP in Baltimore were unavailable for comment,
but Interim Administrator Earl Schoenhorster is reported as saying the NAACP can't spend what it
doesn't have. The only staff members who continue to get paid are those working on special projects
funded by specific grants. Dr. Julian Bond, a lifetime member of the organization and a candidate
for the upcoming Board of Directors election, says the NAACP has never seen such a dark day.
There have been times in the past when staff have gone without a paycheck. There have been times in
the past when the organization was in some modest financial difficulty in arrears with its bills.
But there has never been a time in NAACP history where almost every single employee had to take a
series of payless work days. Never in a time when the deficit was so large. And never a time when public
confidence in the NAACP needed so badly to be restored. And Bond places much of the blame for
the NAACP's condition squarely on the shoulders of former Executive Director Benjamin Chavis and
Chairman of the Board William Gibson. C. Delores Tucker agrees. Tucker is a member of the NAACP's
National Board of Trustees and a chair of the National Political Congress of Black Women,
and she thinks Chairman Gibson's days are numbered. I think if anybody else ran a corporation
into the situation that it is in now, it's just about almost bankrupt, I think they wouldn't
stay there very long. And I think that whatever Mr. Chavis did, he did it with his authority.
In fact, when it was revealed that the contract was made and money was spent, he stood by the side
of Mr. Chavis and said he supported him fully. Mr. Chavis could not do any, he wouldn't have been hired
without Mr. Dr. Gibson's blessings, and he would not have done what he did without his blessings,
and so he is culpable. The NAACP board fired Benjamin Chavis August 20th, based partially on
charges that he mismanaged the organization's funds when he tried to secretly settle a sexual
discrimination lawsuit for $332,000. William Gibson, the NAACP chair since 1985, also faces allegations
that he has misused his expense account, accepting reimbursement for expenses already charged to the
organization. Gibson has denied the accusations. But two weeks ago, the board voted to order an
outside audit of all officers' expenses going back to 1989. In the meantime, a plan is afoot to raise
money for the national organization from the 220 local branch offices. The idea is to have each branch
send $1,000 to the national office and thereby raise over $2 million. The Lan McGriff, president of
the San Francisco office, believes the plan will work. She says her branch is sending money.
Many branches have that much money. Most branches have that much money that they can
certainly send to the national office without a fundraiser. You know, so, I mean, some of the
smaller branches may have some difficulty and they may have to put on a fundraiser to raise money, but
the larger branches certainly have that kind of money they can send to the national office.
Despite the financial problems at the national level and despite the fact the organization's
image has suffered, the work of the NAACP goes on because, as Julian Bond points out, it's the strength
of the local branches that keeps the nation's oldest and largest civil rights organization from
falling apart. Even as we're speaking all around the country, individual NAACP branches,
almost all of them staffed by volunteers who are not dependent on a paycheck from the national
organization, are registering voters. They're gearing up to turn out large numbers of black voters
on election day next Tuesday. They are investigating discrimination complaints. They're running
SAT clinics for black high school kids. They're running anti-drug campaigns. They're doing all of the
work of the NAACP. The crisis at the headquarters in Baltimore is serious, but it's not going to prove
fatal to the NAACP. This organization is too important for black or white Americans to let slip away.
The NAACP board elections are scheduled for December. There is some speculation among observers
that NAACP Chair William Gibson will step down by February. Mark Beavis, Pacifica Network News, Washington.
There's a new gold rush in Oregon. The Newmont Mining Corporation plans to open Oregon's first
gold pit mine in public land at Grassy Mountain. While Newmont promises jobs, some residents are
nonetheless not happy about the mine. Congress's failure to reform mining laws has left western
states with the job of making sure that mining companies operating on public lands clean up after
themselves. Oregon passed what has been called the toughest mining law in the nation in 1991.
But some say even that law doesn't go far enough. That's why grassroots environmental activists are
pushing for passage of Measure 14, a ballot initiative that would require additional environmental protection.
From Portland, Alexi Rubenstein reports.
From downtown Ontario, it's an hour-long drive through sagebrush country along bumpy roads to Grassy
Mountain. Gary Brown and his wife Carolyn were born and raised in this eastern Oregon town
and have dedicated the last eight years fighting a proposed gold mine that will level Grassy Mountain.
Back in 1988, we were all maybe four miles west of this area. And I walked over the horizon. Here
were some claim stakes just been staked. One of the pieces of paper that was on one of the claim posts
said that it was gold. And gee whiz, you know, I've heard stories all my life that there was gold out here,
but gee whiz, nobody ever found any. And you know, that's kind of crazy.
Congress enacted the 1872 mining law when Ulysses S. Grant was president in order to encourage
prospecting and settlement of the west. Under the law, mineral rights on public lands are still
sold for the 1872 price, as little as $5 an acre. Critics of the law say that it fails to address
the environmental impacts of today's large-scale mining technologies. Newmont and other mining companies,
using a process called cyanide-heap-leach mining, remove millions of tons of earth,
and using cyanide, extract microscopic flakes of gold. At Grassy Mountain, the foreign-owned
Newmont Corporation plans to remove over one million tons of earth and dig a 2,000-foot-wide,
800-foot-deep open pit, all to produce the amount of gold it takes to fill the back of a standard
pickup truck. Gary Brown says what Newmont will leave behind is an empty pit and piles
of tailings debris.
Gary Brown says what Newmont will leave behind is an empty pit and piles of tailings debris.
Gary Brown says tailings is all the gunk that's left in the mining process that nobody wants.
So you've got a lot of heavy metals, the mercuries, the cadmiums, the leads,
that's not economical to pull out. They only want the gold that has the high value.
Gary Brown says the primary reason for Measure 14 is to require mining companies to refill the open
pits they dig in order to prevent acid mine drainage, which happens when mine tailings are
exposed to water and oxygen. Brown says he wants the pit refilled so that it doesn't fill with acidic
water. Grassy Mountain's previous leaseholder, Atlas Precious Metals, said that water would fill up in
the pit. But in Denver, Newmont Senior Vice President Chip Clark denies the potential for acidic water buildup.
There isn't going to be any water. The water table in that area is well below the bottom of the pit.
So there isn't going to be a problem with water coming in contact with sulfide surfaces of the rock.
According to the Mineral Policy Center, Newmont is one of the more environmentally responsible mining
companies. But even at Newmont's showcase mine, the Rain Mine in Elko, Nevada, Clark agrees that
there have been environmental problems. In June 1990, acid mine drainage flowed from waste rock piles,
releasing heavy metals into a nearby stream, turning the water red for two miles. And in March 1993,
acid mine drainage was discovered again. Despite the accidents, Newmont's Chip Clark says it is
extremely costly to refill an open pit. He says it is usually better environmentally to cover tailings
outside of a pit rather than let them sit exposed for a decade or more until the mine is finished and
then backfill. If Measure 14 passes and Newmont is required to fill the pit, Clark says the company would
reduce the scale of mining operations and hire fewer local workers, and the local economy would receive
less benefits. It's a message Newmont has spent over $1.6 million trying to communicate to Oregon voters.
We've got a choice whether to keep our new mining law, which is a good tough law, or whether to destroy it by
passing Measure 14, which is deceptive, would cost jobs, and cost state taxpayers millions.
Despite the talk about the high wage jobs that are generated, I've yet to find anybody that can
point to a prosperous mining region in the United States. Thomas Power is chairman of the Department
of Economics at the University of Montana in Missoula. Mining areas are known for two things,
poverty, and ghost towns. I mean, we know what mining leads to. There's no mystery. The question
is whether there's enough positive payoff in the short term so that people are willing to put up
with what they know are going to be long-term negative consequences. Sitting on a rock outcropping
at the summit of Grassy Mountain, Gary Brown says he and his wife realize that the public lands of Grassy
Mountain will be mine. They just want to ensure that it is done responsibly. For this, mining advocates
have called Brown a radical environmentalist, a label he finds amusing. I am trying to look toward the
future to my daughter's children to grandchildren to future generations and saying, okay, now if I was to
come along 100 years from now, what would I say about this situation? And I know what I would say is,
why didn't my grandparents take care of it in their day? Why were they more concerned about making the
dollar today and not concerned about me here in the future? Chip Clark says that depending on the
results of Measure 14 and further testing for gold, he can see great potential in Oregon's gold mining
future. For Pacifica Network News, I'm Alexi Rubenstein in Portland. A bright light on the left
went out this morning. Editor Irwin Knoll died in his sleep at the age of 63. Cindy Simmons of member
station WORT has more. Irwin Knoll's unexpected passing shocked his friends and co-workers.
Irwin Knoll was probably best known as the editor of the monthly magazine The Progressive.
He also defied the government in 1979 by publishing directions on how to make a nuclear bomb.
Irwin Knoll served as Second Opinions host. That's a weekly interview show
carried by public radio stations. He appeared regularly as a commentator representing the left
on National Public Radio, the McNeil-Lara News Hour, and Pacifica Radio. Peace activist Sam Day,
who used to work with Irwin Knoll at The Progressive, remembered his friend as one of the left's
most articulate spokespersons. I think the country has lost the most eloquent voice
of progressivism and one of the finest minds on the left. It's lost a person who was able to
articulate the ideals and principles of the left in language which the mainstream understood.
Sam Day says Irwin Knoll was an absolutist on free speech, taking an unpopular stance when
Nazis wanted to march in Skokie, Illinois. I met Irwin at a cocktail party in Chicago
during the time of the Skokie case when the Nazis were trying to march in Skokie, and just about
everybody in Skokie and in the United States was against the idea of being given a permit.
And Irwin was one of the few editors who supported the right to march in Skokie, even though as a Jew
himself, he could identify more than most people with the horrors of Nazism. And he came up to me at
the party and said, you know, I get a lot of letters accusing me of being anti-Semitic, and here I am a Jew.
So he got some wry humor out of being characterized as being anti-Jewish.
That was peace activist and journalist Sam Day talking about Irwin Knoll. Irwin Knoll died in
his sleep this morning. For Pacifica Network News, I'm Cindy Simmons.
A Florida jury has convicted anti-abortion activist Paul Hill of first-degree murder.
It took them only 20 minutes to reach the verdict. Hill shot and killed an abortion doctor and his
escort outside a clinic in Pensacola, Florida in July. Hill was his own attorney and questioned no
witnesses throughout the trial. The 40-year-old also offered no closing arguments today.
Hill had wanted to argue that killing the abortion doctor was justifiable homicide,
but the judge refused to allow that argument. Now that the jury has convicted Hill of first-degree
murder, they must recommend whether he will be sentenced to death.
And you are listening to the WBAI Evening News. I'm Jose Santiago in New York. A Catholic priest and
human rights activist, Fr. Roy Bourgeois says that he's committed to lifting the veil of secrecy from
the U.S. Army's School of the Americas. According to Bourgeois, graduates of the military training school are
Latin American soldiers responsible for assassinations, coups, and massacres in nations as diverse as
Haiti, El Salvador, Guatemala, Peru, and Bolivia. Earlier this year, Massachusetts representative Joseph
Kennedy introduced a bill to close the School of the Americas. The bill failed in a close vote,
and Kennedy plans to try again during the next session of Congress. Meanwhile, Fr. Roy Bourgeois continues
his four-year vigil at the school at Fort Benning, Georgia, a vigil that began a year after School of
the Americas graduates were implicated in the murder of six Jesuit priests and their housekeepers in El
Salvador. Fr. Bourgeois spoke with WBAI's Paul de Rienzo, and he chronicles the history of the
institution he calls the School of Assassins. It began in Panama way back in 1946. That's trained over the
years, some 57,000 officers and enlisted men from Latin America. It became known in the 60s as the
School of Coups because so many of the graduates became their country's dictators. Some of those
graduates, Manuel Noriega from Panama during 40 years in a U.S. federal prison for drug running, Roberto
Dubasan, another graduate, the well-known debt squad leader from El Salvador, General Hugo Banzer that I
lived under in Bolivia for five years during the 70s. This is a brutal dictator. Not only a graduate,
but in 1988 he was inducted into the school's Hall of Fame, where today his photograph hangs on the wall
in the Hall of Fame with some 18 other generals from Latin America. But let me see, the school was kicked
out of Panama in 1984 and very quietly settled at Fort Benning, Georgia. When that school left Panama,
La Prince, the principal newspaper there, dubbed it the School of Assassins, where soldiers from Latin
America are taught to kill their people. And this is how we see this school, as a school of assassins.
This year, there will be about 2,000 soldiers from 18 countries in Latin America and the Caribbean
will be trained at this school. Some of the courses, commando operations, there's a sniper course,
interrogation techniques, psychological operations. Most of the courses come under what they call
counter-insurgency techniques. Who are the insurgents? They are the poor. They are the people
in Latin America and the Caribbean who call for reform. Who are some of the graduates of the United
States Army's School of the Americas in Haiti and other countries with horrendous human rights records?
Not long ago, before actually he went into exile, Lieutenant General Raul Cedras had an interview on CNN
where he actually thanked the United States for training 75 percent of the Haitian military.
Many of them went through the School of the Americas. I want to say also, many of those officers were
trained at the School of the Americas after the coup, after the military forced President Aristide out of
Haiti. Also, Brigadier General Felipe Biambi and Lieutenant Colonel Joseph Michel Francois trained at Fort
Benning's Infantry School. I want to say that the military defends this school by saying that they
want to professionalize the militaries of Latin America. Well, that's the problem. They are too
professional today. Unless they turn over their power and their control to civilians, there will be no
hope for the poor in Latin America or in the Caribbean.
Father Bourgeois, how did you learn of the School of the Americas?
When the United Nations Truth Commission report was made public and cited those massacres in El
Salvador, and we learned from Army documents that 72 percent of those cited in that UN Truth
Commission report were trained at the School of the Americas. The massacre of the six Jesuits and two
women, 27 officers responsible for that massacre, 19 of them trained at the School of the Americas,
the assassination of Bishop Romero, the rape and murder of four church women,
the El Masote massacre, where over 900 unarmed men, women, and 131 children under the age of 12 were killed.
The majority of the officers responsible for those massacres received their training at the U.S.
Army School of the Americas. But I want to say we're not only talking about El Salvador. We're talking
about Haiti. We're talking about Colombia, Peru, Honduras. At the school today, for example,
we're talking about gł Stars from Guatemala and there are instructors from Guatemala.