And
good evening to everybody.
It's another week, another week of fun and intrigue in the world of high tech, in the world of the
internet, in the world of telephones, in the world of big business versus individual liberty and
freedom. And we'll be talking about all that and more as always right here on Off the Hook for the
next hour or so. We won't be here next week, but the week after that, I understand we have a three-hour
special. So if you want to tune in for that, we'll have some pretty amazing and interesting things to
talk about then.
We have a special guest with us tonight. We'll be getting to him in just a moment or two.
First, a couple of items.
This out of England, a British teenager allegedly hacked into sensitive U.S. government computers
and was able to monitor secret communications over the North Korean nuclear crisis last spring.
that's according to the independent newspaper in London. The teenager tapped into several defense
computers for seven months in what U.S. officials conceded was one of the most serious breaches of
computer security in recent years. The 16-year-old, after reading the messages, put them on a bulletin board
on the internet. And that, of course, is accessible to 35 million users. A British hacker who read the messages
told the independent they contained information about firing sites in North Korea and field intelligence.
He kept detailed logs of communication traffic. He really couldn't believe his luck.
The Americans thought he was a spy, but he told them he was just doing it for fun.
The kid was nicknamed DataStream by other internet users and was finally caught by special U.S. investigators
because he left his terminal online to a U.S. defense computer overnight.
Typical hacker. British police arrested him in July. Prosecutors are expected to decide this month
whether he can be charged. And in a statement to the paper, the U.S. Air Force Office of Special
Investigations acknowledged the hacker could have accessed and read the Korean files.
Whoops.
And this out of Germany. As you may know, the Chaos Communications Congress took place
over the last week or so.
And this comes from the Associated Press. Hackers want you to know you can't trust the internet.
That's right. All this breathless adoration for the internet was getting unbearable for veteran
hackers of the Chaos Computer Club.
Cyberspace's famed German merry pranksters, they simply had to deflate it.
The public and news media apparently can't get enough of the internet.
New on-ramps to the global network are being built at a dizzying rate as more folks buy computers
and check out its virtual communities. But the internet wasn't built to handle so much traffic.
It's getting overloaded. It's getting slow. Electronic mail messages are getting lost.
The whole system will crash in 1996, predicted programmer Hans Hubner at the Chaos Computer Club's
10th Annual Congress last week.
He and pal Tim Pritload presented the gathering's best-attended seminar,
Why the Internet is Crap.
I don't know if they quite said it that way.
The internet reminds me of the horrendous traffic in Germany.
You get in your car and say,
Yeah, let's cruise.
And you're almost immediately stuck in traffic and go nuts.
Well, you definitely go nuts on the internet, that's for sure.
Of course, Hubner and Pritload exaggerate a bit,
but provocation is what chaos is all about.
The club made its first splash a decade ago
when it embarrassed Germany's telecom monopoly
by showing how easy it was to penetrate
and defraud the phone company's BTX information service
and a major bank in the process.
In 1987, club members publicized their break-in of NASA's Central Computer
in Washington, D.C., where they gathered data
with the help of a program that collected user passwords.
Chaos members' goal is an electronic global village
free of government and commercial control.
Members don't just hack and smoke hashish,
although there's plenty of that.
They also help bury electronic mail
in and out of Yugoslav war zones
and promote a program called Pretty Good Privacy
that lets people encrypt email messages
so the world's intelligence agencies cannot read them.
Dozens of chaos's 250 dues-paying members
have parlayed their skill into jobs
as network administrators, security experts,
and software developers.
Hubner and Pritload work for a small company
developing multimedia programs for telecom,
which the club is battling over its refusal
to admit that widespread fraud is hurting private customers.
And telecom got a black eye last month
when a theft of services scandal broke that industry.
Broke, rather, that industry sources say
involves hundreds of telecom employees,
although just three people were arrested.
Telecom's phone network is a security nightmare.
Service thieves known as phone freakers
have been romping through it freely for years.
Chaos is demanding meters in every home
to measure telephone use and itemize bills,
which Germans either cannot get or must pay extra for.
Testifying to chaos's clout,
telecom's ombudsman showed up
at this year's Congress to debate the issue.
Another guest speaker was the computer research director
for Siemens, the industrial giant.
But German officialdom frown on chaos.
The government has rebuffed its attempts
to gain public interest group status
so supporters can make tax-deductible donations.
But, back to why you can't trust the Internet.
Did you know, for example,
how email sent from Berlin to Vienna travels?
Asks a hacker known only as Frank.
First, through Dortmund, then Amsterdam,
then across the Atlantic to Virginia,
where it gets bounced back to Paris
and finally to Vienna.
And if that aspect of the Internet doesn't bother you,
notes Hubner,
think about this.
You have no idea how many different spy agencies
might be reading that email.
And that comes to us from the Associated Press,
news of the Chaos Computer Club.
And here's a public service announcement
for all of you that are concerned with global issues
and how they relate to national security.
This has appeared in some local newspapers.
The Federal Bureau of Investigation,
known as the FBI,
requests your assistance
in protecting the national security
of the United States.
Individuals associated with terrorist activity,
Russian organized crime,
theft of both classified and high-tech information
are of significant interest to the FBI.
If you have information identifying individuals
committing aforementioned crimes,
contact the FBI immediately.
If you have been approached by individuals
requesting your assistance
in the advancement of their crime,
please call now.
Your identity is not required.
All information will be maintained
in strict confidence.
The Federal Bureau of Investigation
requests your assistance
in protecting the national security
of the United States.
Acts of espionage and terrorism
may be conducted routinely
by individuals of which you may have
daily contact.
You can play a major role
in...
Stop pointing.
You can play a major role
in the detection and deterrence
of these crimes.
The FBI is further interested
in information relating,
as we said,
to identifying Russian organized
crime associates and activities.
Yeah.
Well, let's see if this is a hoax or not.
Okay?
We're going to take a listen here,
and then we will get to our special guest
on the telephone.
But first,
let's get our friendly dial tone online.
No, we don't have a dial tone.
Okay, now we have a dial tone.
We're going to dial.
Let's see if this number is real.
Well, it rings.
Hello.
You have contacted
the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
To hear this message in Spanish,
press 300.
Russian,
press 400.
Chinese,
press 500.
Or in English,
press 600.
To leave a general message,
use our general delivery mailbox
at extension 100.
Thank you.
Let's try 600.
Let's try 600.
One moment, please.
This hotline has been established
to allow callers to report confidential information
pertaining to terrorist activity,
Russian organized crime,
theft of classified or proprietary information.
If you would prefer to have a private meeting
with a special agent of the FBI
to discuss your concern,
please leave your name and contact number at the tone.
If this is an emergency,
please call 908-469-7986,
or 201-622-5613
to speak to an agent now.
At the tone,
please leave a concise message
with the complete name of individuals
and or companies involved in your allegation.
A callback number for you is recommended.
The FBI assures you
of your confidentiality in this matter.
Okay.
I disconnected it,
but the reason I left the tone on
was because sometimes I can identify
what kind of machine they use
or what kind of voicemail system.
They definitely transferred you somewhere.
Well, it looks like it's real,
and it's right over there in New Jersey
because they gave out a 201 and a 908 number.
What do you think, Faber?
Should I give out the number?
Sure, why not?
All right.
Well, I mean, it is a public service after all.
It's something that people should know about.
And that's what we're going to do.
1-800-345-4474.
24 hours a day.
Messages received in English,
Spanish, Chinese, and Russian.
So I guess if you leave something in French,
they won't be able to do anything.
I don't know.
That's weird that that kind of thing
would appear in a local newspaper,
but that was posted up on the net,
so everybody knows about it there.
And we'll see how many spies we catch
and how many Russian organized crime figures
we grab.
Okay, we have on the phone with us
Brock Meeks from Washington, D.C.
Brock, are you there?
I'm here.
How are you doing?
I'm doing fine.
Okay, we have had some interesting developments
in the past couple of weeks.
Let's start with what's going on
with the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
Something weird's going on there, isn't it?
Well, let me just jump in
and add a little footnote
to your FBI item there.
I don't know if it's widely known yet,
but very soon now,
the assistant director of the FBI
is going to quit
and become head of international security
for IBM.
His main concern
is going to be watching out
for economic espionage
for Big Blue.
Wow.
Well, he's had quite a lot of experiences
I'm sure will be helpful to IBM.
If you guys heard it here first.
Okay, that's a bit of a bombshell there.
As far as EFF goes,
the August grassroots organization
that has increasingly slipped away
from its grassroots
over the past couple of years
because of some of the Washington activities
and mainly because of its former executive director,
Jerry Berman,
decided to oust him.
That decision was made in October
and I broke the story
in my cyberwire dispatch
just a couple of weeks ago.
So EFF has now fired Jerry Berman
as its executive director
and he is going to spin off
a new organization
called the Center for Democracy and Technology
and he, in fact,
took with him the whole policy arm of EFF.
So he gutted that organization
of all their policy wonks
and he's going to make his own organization
and EFF, I'm told,
is now going to get back
to doing what it was supposed to do
in the first place
which is watching out
for individual freedoms in cyberspace
rather than being
the consummate political insider in Washington.
Well, now,
how did that happen in the first place?
I mean, a few years ago,
it was back in 1990,
EFF formed
and they just seemed to get more and more involved
in the corporate world
rather than the individual liberty world.
I mean, how did they spin in that direction
in the first place?
Well, they wanted to have some kind of effect
and the only way to do that
was to get some kind of visibility
and credibility, if you will,
with the people in Washington.
And for some reason that still escapes me,
they were convinced
that in order to gain
some type of credibility
at a policy level
so people wouldn't just laugh at them
as some kind of retro 60s activist,
they had to hire
a big-time corporate suit
and the man that they tapped
to do that was Jerry Berman.
And Jerry's forte
is not the big privacy advocate
that people were led to believe,
but Jerry's real strength
is getting everybody to the table
and compromising.
And so that's what happened.
I mean, he began to bring people to the table
and he leveraged EFF's,
I guess, popularity or EFF's reputation
for having this huge grassroots movement
against the government's restrictive policies
and said, look,
I think we can make a deal here.
And that was what his whole shtick was about,
was this deal-making.
It wasn't an either-or type of thing,
but he brought everybody together
and said, okay,
I'm bringing you the credibility
of all these grassroots movements
and let's see how we can make a deal.
And that became increasingly part
of EFF's mission
and the board members
just left a bad taste in their mouth
and so they fired him.
Let's look at what the EFF could have been
up until this point.
Let's say none of this had happened,
none of this Washington influence
had taken place.
Do you think things would be
significantly different today?
Well, I don't think so.
I know so.
There is not a doubt in my mind
that during the whole FBI digital wiretap issue,
if EFF had been a staunch opponent of that bill
from day one until its last dying breath,
that that bill never would have been introduced
and it would have been defeated.
Because what Jerry Berman did in essence
by agreeing to collaborate with the FBI
on getting a plausible bill through,
he did one of the first rules,
he violated one of the first rules of warfare,
which is keep your troops together.
I mean, it was like Custer's last stand.
You know, Custer spent his 7th Calvary
or wherever it was
into four different places
and ended up with just 100 and some odd troops
on Little Round Top
and he got wiped out.
Well, when Jerry decided to bring EFF to the table
and said, okay, we'll deal,
he split the online community right in half
and from there it was just a no-brainer
and the FBI was able to say,
well, look, Louis Freeh, the director of the FBI,
went to every single 535 congressman
and he said, look, I have EFF backing me,
this is why it's a good deal.
If EFF hadn't been in the FBI's back pocket like that,
that bill never would have been introduced.
That is something.
Do you think the damage is repairable at this point?
The damage to EFF's reputation?
Both to that and to the effect
that it's had on legislation.
Can this legislation somehow be turned around?
Is there anything that we can do?
Well, you know, I was just a good friend of mine,
Simon Garfinkel, who has written for the Boston Globe
and was an editor of Next World and stuff,
threw out an idea today that some people
had been kind of bitching and moaning
about the fact that the popular press
hadn't really done its job
in flagging this whole digital wiretap thing.
Certainly publications like Cyber Wire Dispatch
and Wired Magazine were leading the charge,
but the popular press really wasn't doing anything.
And Simon Simpson spoke up and said,
well, look, guys, stop while you're whining.
Why don't we get together some kind of coalition
and have this thing overturned?
So it hadn't even struck me that that's a possibility.
And it's a very real one
because this whole thing doesn't really kick in for four years.
I mean, the telephone companies
and the switch manufacturers
essentially have four years to get their act together
before they start to get hammered
by the government mandates,
but say in four years you either have to put up or shut up.
So with all the changes going on in Congress,
you could say, well, now this digital wiretap thing
is a $500 million taxpayer liability.
Why don't we get rid of it?
I mean, you guys don't have to prove you're tough on crime,
and why don't we instead try and spend the money
on beefing up the FBI itself
rather than having the FBI intrude on our public privacy?
Is that a very elaborate procedure
to overturn something like this?
When is the last time something like that has happened?
Well, you've got...
It is an elaborate procedure,
but with some of the radical changes
and the radical mood in Congress right now,
and it seems kind of an oxymoron
to call the Republicans radical,
but if you look at one of the things
that is in the Contract for America
that Newt Gingrich, the new Speaker of the House,
is trying to push,
they want to overturn the majority
of the American for Disabilities Act.
Now, the ADA was a major piece of legislation
designed, for example,
to give the deaf and hearing impaired community
equal access to the telephone system.
I mean, you had to have all 50 states now
have these telephone relay systems set up
so that the deaf people can talk to hearing
and so on and so forth.
That wasn't the case until this ADA was signed.
And that was a major piece of legislation
pushed by, you guessed it, President Bush.
Well, now this Republican Congress
wants to overturn that.
That was a major piece of public policy,
and they really want to overturn that.
So if a public policy bill like that
has been targeted,
I don't see why it would be impossible
to target something like the digital wiretap bill,
especially when it hasn't even gotten to effect yet.
Right, but we would need a strong coalition of people
representing a particular interest
to push that through.
Who do you see as being a part of that?
Well, I see maybe the revamped EFF would sign on to it.
I'm not sure.
I think that you could also get certainly
the Electronic Privacy Information Center, EPIC.
They came very close to almost single-handedly
stopping this bill.
These were the people also that collected
more than 50,000 signatures on the Internet
against the Clipper Chip Initiative.
They're a small, very underfunded organization
in Washington.
But I like to think of these guys
as the real street fighters
as far as public policy goes
and advocates for the net.
They have done more work at the court level
trying to pry open Freedom of Information Act requests
from the FBI.
And they're in court constantly
to get documents from the Justice Department
on Clipper.
And they have put together
an amazing coalition at the last minute,
almost at the 11th hour,
to try and overturn digital telephony.
So with groups like that leading the way,
they already have the experience.
There were some other groups
that sprang up, Telecom Alert and so forth,
that kind of sprang up ad hoc
at the last minute.
I think if you got groups like that together,
the ACLU joined in,
get some of those groups together
and hold a couple of seminars or whatever
and get your agenda together.
Now would be a good time to do that
in the first month of Congress
when change is the operative word.
Well, it sounds optimistic.
It's the first optimistic thing
I've heard in a long time.
And I hope we can do something like that.
There are a lot of changes in D.C.
We might as well make some of those changes
be good ones.
And overturning bad laws is a start.
All right, we have a couple of other topics
we want to touch upon right now.
One of them, a very important thing,
which happened last Thursday,
and that comes out of Boston.
And that's where a college student
was cleared of charges.
He set up a computer bulletin board service
allowing copyrighted commercial software
to be copied for free.
U.S. District Judge Richard Stearns
ruled that Dave LaMacchia
could not be prosecuted
for criminal copyright infringement
under the current federal wire fraud statute.
Allowing the case to proceed
could make it possible
for home computer users
to be prosecuted for copying
even a single program
for their own personal use.
He suggested Congress
rewrite the copyright law
to cover computer software,
saying it is up to legislators,
not the courts,
to define a crime
and ordain as punishment.
So, of course, we're very happy
to hear about this,
that this case,
which we've been following
since last year,
is not going to go any further
and people won't be held accountable,
at least for now,
for copying programs
within the confines
of their own home.
Brock, do you think this is a first step?
Do you think they will now try
and get some sort of a law passed
that will enable them
to prosecute cases like this
more easily in the future?
Well, you know,
this is a good question
because you have kind of
a good and bad scenario here.
I mean, it's good
because we now have some case law
that says, look,
this copyright law issue is shit
as far as making it
so that somebody
that copies something at home
is liable for criminal intent
and so on and so forth.
Well, now we have law
in the books that says,
no, that can't happen.
So it immediately places
the onus back on Congress
and the danger is
that Congress will go in
and they'll put some teeth
into that.
And how that could happen
is that you have
the Software Publishers Association
and some of these
big software companies
that have lots of bucks,
that have their packs,
that give heavily
to congressional campaigns.
You could get those lobbyists
in there and say,
okay, this guy
was let off the hook.
We don't want this
to happen again.
And believe me,
these guys are up on the hill.
I was there today
as the 104th Congress
was being sworn in.
The lobbyists were four to one
outnumbering the new legislators.
And they're up there
and they're all making
their case right away.
And everybody is open
to talking to anybody.
And so that's a real danger.
I mean, we could get that law
written into there
so that people like
Luis Kele Macchio,
he would have been prosecuted
because the law
would not be ambiguous anymore.
The other thing is that
the copyright laws
are on the table.
I mean, they are
on the chopping block.
It's very much
in a state of flux right now.
So that adds just another level
of concern because
if copyright laws
weren't actively being looked at anyway,
then you would need
some kind of momentum
to get them cranked up
and somebody to introduce them
and so forth
and kind of get the ball rolling.
Well, that ball's
already rolling
and it's already
in a state of flux.
Bruce Lehman,
the head of the
Patent and Trademark Office,
came out with a very
controversial white paper
on how copyright laws
should be made more stringent
so that, for example,
stuff that you download
from the Internet
could be considered
a copyright violation
and if you downloaded
an audio file
from the Library of Congress
that you'd have to pay royalties
on it every time
you played it on your computer.
Well, that kind of moves us
into the next topic
which has to do
with the CompuServe issue.
Perhaps you'd be better
off describing that.
Maybe you know more
about what's been happening
in the past couple of days.
This was out of nowhere,
it seemed.
Yeah.
This guy started sending around
this dire warning
saying that CompuServe
and Cahoots
with the Unisys company
had conspired
to make everybody
pay royalties
on any time
you used a GIF file
and that they owned
all the patent
and patents on this thing
and anybody using
a GIF file
calling up on their computer
was going to be
in violation of the patent.
They were going to have to
pay a royalty
and so on and so forth
and immediately
everybody was launching,
was thinking about
launching a boycott
on CompuServe
and getting all
pushed out of shape
and what it turns out
is that CompuServe,
it appears right now,
was kind of an unwitting
dupe in all this
because seven years ago
Unisys and CompuServe
got together
and they developed
the technology
to create these GIF files
and at the time
Unisys said
that they weren't going
to patent this thing
and that everything
was above board
and it was all fine
and good
and it was going to be
in a public domain
and so on and so forth
so everybody started
putting this protocol
and this technology
into their software.
Well, apparently
what Unisys did
was they filed
what's called
a submarine patent
which is
they don't tell
anybody about it
they let it percolate
silently through
the patent
and trademark office
and then bingo
once it gets there
with no,
once it pops up
out of the patent
and trademark office
and it's awarded
then they start
hitting everybody
for royalties
and apparently
according to
Tim Oren
who is the vice president
for new services
I think for CompuServe
CompuServe
was blindsided by this
and so
they have agreed
to pay a certain
amount of royalties
that's unspecified
to Unisys
but how that all
plays out
with you and me
and everybody else
in the world
that owns a GIF file
or a GIF viewer
we don't know yet.
Well, hasn't GIF
become sort of
a standard
as far as
how to display pictures?
How can they expect
something that
everybody uses
to suddenly
become something
that people have
to pay royalties for?
Well, that's just
they just can't
I mean, it's
enforcing that
it's going to be
another thing
Well, I mean
they're not going to
win any popularity contests
doing this kind of thing
on the Met
but how popular
is Unisys anyway?
Oh, that's true
good point
Well, I just don't know
how this is
I mean, is this something
that we can expect
to see more of
as more commercial entities
become involved
in all of this?
Well, probably
I mean, again
that's a toss-up question
I mean, we're talking
about wanting
open systems
we're talking about
wanting everything
interconnected
and so on
and so forth
but you know
I just don't
I can't believe
that corporate America
overnight
and when I say
overnight
I mean maybe
three or four years
is going to shift
that corporate culture
that says
mine, mine, mine
and just allow
everything to be
free and open
and easy
and so we might
very well see
this
you see this type
of thing
where things
become proprietary
and things
that we've been
using now
all of a sudden
we find out
oops
you know
there's been a
submarine patent
done
and this kind
of thing
I mean
everybody's out
to make these
dollars
and as the world
gets more and more
computerized
and everything
hangs off
these telephone lines
and our computers
talking back and forth
there's a lot of money
to be made there
Well, as the corporate
world collides
with the net world
I don't know
I have a lot of faith
in the net attitude
of sharing information
of sharing files
and programs
and things like that
I think they're
going to triumph
because I think
they have the know-how
instead of these
giant multinationals
you're going to find
smaller companies
that they may come up
with something
that's easier to use
and there's an
open platform
type of system
and what's going to
happen is
as more and more
people get on the net
they're going to see
this open system
you're going to see
people jump on that
and it's quickly
going to be
a de facto standard
and the marketplace
is going to say
we want to go
with little Acme widgets
instead of IBM
and start paying
a fairly low price
for something
that's an open standard
and widely used
and IBM is going
to find itself
again having to
play catch up
as it's done
to Microsoft
and losing
all sorts of market share
and so on and so forth
they will triumph
yeah I hope so
I want to read
a quick quote
then we'll take
some phone calls
this is from
the Software Publishers
Association
our favorite people
the people that
want to prosecute you
for copying
WordPerfect
from one PC
to another
in your home
this is
in reaction
to the
LaMachia case
being dropped
the Software Publishers
Association
estimates that
people working
in corporations
illegally shared
nearly 1.6 billion
dollars worth
of software
last year
illegal sharing
is going on
that is such
an amazing phrase
that they've come
up with
when you share
you're breaking
a law now
they're not calling
it stealing
it's just sharing
that's something
bad now
so when you share
something
you may be
committing a crime
keep that in mind
all you sharers
out there
alright we're talking
with esteemed
journalist Brock Meeks
from Washington D.C.
and Brock
tell us about
the publications
you're working for
well by day
I am officially
the Washington
Bureau Chief
for a new
trade publication
called Interactive Week
that just started up
a couple of months ago
it covers the
broadly defined
areas of digital
media and the
whole converging
worlds of telephone
cables and
Hollywood and so on
and so forth
and I write
the political
and the internet
coverage for that
magazine
and then of course
by night
I put out my
kind of renegade
publication
which is
Cyber Wire
Dispatch
which this
month is
having its
one year
anniversary
wow that's
great
that's great
and you've been
involved in quite a
few earth shattering
stories
yeah I broke
several stories
last year
several on the
the whole
clipper chip
and digital
telephony
broke stories
on what was
happening with
some of the
telephone stuff
and broke the
story for example
just last week
on Jerry
Berman being
fired and
just kind of
weighed in
on at various
points along the
way with
some of my
commentary
I also
exposed
several
kind of
scams on
the net
and questionable
organizations
one of which
one guy sued
me for libel
thus I became
the first journalist
sued for
something in
cyberspace
and eventually
beat that
libel suit
admitting no
liability
and came out
of that
clean
so it's been
quite a year
did you have
any financial
problems as a
result of that
lawsuit
yeah I incurred
about $30,000
worth of legal
fees
but a defense
fund that we
started on the
net got me
about $7,000
and the lawyers
were kind
enough to just
eat the rest
of the debt
so they ended
up doing about
$23,000 of
pro bono work
wow that's
great
yeah
that's great
what was the
name of that
those guys
I should give
him a plug
that was
Bruce Sanford
who was one
of the nation's
foremost first
amendment attorneys
and David Marburger
and they're both
with the law
firm of Baker
and Hostetler
okay that is
very encouraging
to hear that
a lot of
good encouraging
things you're
bringing us today
if you have any
questions for
Brock
on the net
on the EFF
or just in
journalism in
general
freedom of speech
he's an expert
on all that
I'm sure
give us a call
now at
212-279-3400
or if you just
have something
technological
that you want
to bring to
our attention
we can try
and help you
out as best
we can
let's take
our first
phone call
good evening
you're on
yes how
you doing
guys
okay
I love the
program
I want to
ask a question
for maybe
both of you
guys
I'm into
marketing
and right
now I'm
in a process
with a couple
Korean developers
and inventors
they're in a
process of
developing
cartridge
jet inks
for a computer
for the computer
industry
and we're
talking about
probably a
quarter or half
the price
what's on the
market now
like what you
guys are paying
on the marketplace
right now
to refill
cartridges
for the jet
packer
ink
we're talking
about half
the price
to about
a quarter
of the price
what's out
there in the
market
you think
that might
be something
feasible
that people
out there
might need
well yeah
I mean
people do
use that
kind of
thing
so probably
I mean
I'm just
trying to
find out
what the
market
might be
out there
see for
me
this whole
new world
about computers
and stuff
is totally
new to me
so I really
don't know
what the
market might
be out there
for it
but I would
assume that
it's probably
a big market
for that
well it's
pretty easy
to find out
something like
that I mean
people
regularly put
out market
reports
I mean
you can call
a securities
analyst
or somebody
at one of
these brokerage
firms
and find out
just how big
somebody like
Hewlett Packard's
inkjet market
is and you
can make
a kind of
extrapolate
from how many
inkjet
printers
those guys
sell
or maybe
Epson
sells
and say
people run
through
maybe
three or
four
of those
inkjet
cartridges
a year
and do
some quick
multiplication
and find out
what the
market is
they were
talking about
some of
the copiers
and jetpack
printers
don't mind me
with the
technology
I'm just
still trying
to learn
about it
but they're
saying that
there is
a patent
on it
for two
years
like they
do like
a key and
lock
sort of
a cartridge
and then
after two
years
they kind
of get
rid of
that
patent
and then
you can
come out
with a
marketplace
come out
with something
that will
fit into
that machine
is that
correct
I have
no idea
I know
that a
patent
a patent
lasts for
17 years
so I don't
know what
you're talking
about
something that
ends after
two years
but a patent
in the United
States
lasts for
17 years
really
so
what they
ask
is that
if a
machine
to protect
themselves
like a
Xerox
they come
out
with a
machine
and there's
a certain
cartridge
that fits
in there
I would
assume
that you
just can't
copy the
same
cartridge
and put
it in
there
well I
think you
can
you can
reverse
engineer a
cartridge
certainly
you can
put other
cartridges
in an
HP
printer
for example
that carries
toner
you just
have to
I mean
HP will
tell you
that if
you put
a different
cartridge
rather than
HP
into their
machine
that it
avoids the
warranty
but if
you can
get it
for a
quarter
of the
price
somebody's
going to
buy it
and of
course
what's
going to
happen
is the
people that
own the
patent
and the
trademark
on that
type of
cartridge
are probably
going to
look at
your
product
very closely
but hell
we have
18 million
different types
of tennis
shoes
and
so
a tennis
shoe
is basically
a tennis
shoe
and
that's
what your
Korean guys
are experts
at
is
redesigning
things
so they
don't
infringe
on the
patent
I don't
think they
can take
a patent
out on
a shape
I don't
think
although
who knows
these days
I mean
the thing
that's weird
about is
that
I'll come
Hello
this is
9X operator
excuse the
interruption
on 279
3400
Yes operator
what can we
do for you
it is
Glaz
making an
emergency
interrupt
Glaz
what number
is Glaz
calling from
I don't have
a number
sir
do you know
where he's
calling from
no idea
no idea
at all
I have
an alternate
operator
calling 9X
and giving me
this number
and your number
and indicating
that Glaz
is interrupting
the call
well tell Glaz
that we're
busy right now
we're doing
a radio show
and we don't
need his
interruptions
right now
I can't
believe we
allow that
on our
front lines
I'm sorry
for the
interruption
continue
yeah
the thing
that I was
looking at
is that
how come
I mean
the thing
that scares
me about
all this
is that
I've been
into marketing
and all
and we've
developed
products
and stuff
and we
hit out
in the
marketplace
but since
like I
said before
this is
totally new
to me
the whole
internet
and computers
and all
I don't
know anything
about it
but the same
deal
you just
market another
product
the thing
that I've
been looking
at in the
marketplace
is that
how come
it's not
out there
like products
like refills
or cartridges
like for half
the price
well refills
are out there
I mean
you can
you can
refill
but what
about cartridges
well you
refill the
cartridges
I mean
instead of
buying a new
cartridge for
50 bucks
or whatever
it is
you refill
it for
15
yeah that's
what we're
looking at
we're looking
at about
hopefully
a quarter
of the price
of what's
out there
in the
marketplace
and you
know it's
going to
be a
small
company
as we
start
growing
we really
got
as a
matter
of fact
we really
got a
contract
for five
years
already
from a
major
company
so I
mean
it seems
like
there's a
market
for this
there is
I mean
there are
people out
there doing
it now
but the
only thing
is that
as my
friends told
me
the Korean
guys
told me
is that
they're
developers
they're
chemical
engineers
and the
problem
is that
they're
always
reformulating
the ink
and that's
where you
as generic
something
capable
of going
into the
machines
that's the
problem
I believe
you
sir we
can just
advise you
to forge
ahead and
see what
happens
it's risky
it might
not work
someone might
object
but that's
really the
only way
you're going
to find
out
yeah
just have
to go
out there
and do
and see
what falls
into place
but keep
us updated
because it
sounds like
a worthwhile
endeavor
yeah I
think it
is
alright so
I guess
at the end
of the show
you will
leave a
number
or something
I'll let
you guys
know what's
going on
okay good
luck
great thanks
alright
let's take
another phone
call here
good evening
you're on
off the hook
hi
well it's our
old friend
how are you
technical things
that we want
to ask
and then I'll
get to your
guest here
my comment
is that
don't you
just hate
when you're
using a 9x
pay phone
and some of
them
absolutely
some of
them hang
up on you
when you're
entering
touch tones
yes why
is that
why do
pay phones
hang up
on you
when you're
using touch
tones
I've noticed
that a lot
these days
but then when
you try again
it doesn't
in other words
you're trying to
use a calling
card or something
sometimes it
sometimes it
does and
sometimes it
doesn't
who can figure
this out
I don't
I don't
know
now why
is it also
that when
you dial
from a 9x
pay phone
a carrier
access code
like 10211
and then
oh you get
sometimes RCI
long distance
sometimes you
get phone
tell technology
sometimes you
get Oasis
well I can't
answer that
but I do
have another
fact which I
want to bring
to people's
attention and
this is important
the new carrier
access codes are
now working
yes that's right
so if you
dial 101
288
you will get
through on
ATT
and also
exchanges are
now area
codes meaning
you can have
an area code
777
360 area code
is working
in Washington
state that
started to
go through
on some
central offices
but I think
this carrier
access thing
is kind of
crazy because
I don't know
how they're
going to
market this
what's AT&T
going to say
they can't
say 10288
anymore
they're going
to have to
say something
like 1010
288 or
1010 ATT
it's going
to be a
nightmare
especially after
getting people
used to the
first series of
numbers
now they're
going to
change it
all and
expand the
numbers
why do you
get different
companies on
the same carrier
access code
are you calling
from the same
place
same 9x pay
phone
not the same
place
but different
9x pay
actually one
9x pay phone
and one other
9x pay phone
right next to
it
are they in
the same
exchange
well it
could just
be a
corporation
playing around
some different
names
I don't know
no actually
you bring up
a good point
because RCI
does say
sometimes
Oasis
but they're
really RCI
operators
but I guess
when you
dial 1211
on their
screen it
tells them
what to say
whether to
say RCI
whether to
say Oasis
it's possible
they're just
routing in
different ways
based on
busyness
it might get
routed to
one of their
subcontractors
well yeah
but you
don't know
if the
system
has suddenly
peaked
to a certain
degree
where they
have to
overflow
to another
company
I don't
know
it sounds
ridiculous
but that
might be
what they're
doing
I know
that you
mentioned
feature group
B numbers
is there
a feature
group
A number
yes
ah
Fiber can
answer
this
feature
group
A numbers
are
foreign
exchange
numbers
and
old
watts
numbers
which
are
watts
numbers
as in
800
numbers
well
what is
foreign
exchange
number
foreign
exchange
number
is
numbers
that
they
don't
really
issue
anymore
but
basically
you pay
a lot
of money
to
have
a normal
phone line
ran to
wherever you
are
from another
place
it's like
a dial tone
in another
city
yeah
basically
it's not
something
that's
really
either
necessary
or
really
too
particularly
popular
but
in
older
days
in like
crossbar
and step
by step
days
it was
a means
of
being
in
someone
else's
local
calling
area
i remember
some
universities
you would
dial
120
and you
get a
dial tone
in new
york
if you
were
out in the
suburb
it was 123
you get a
dial tone
in albany
and that was
kind of a
foreign exchange
setup
i just want
to mention
that
payphones
are still
being
broken
they're
removing
coin
returns
out of
9x
payphones
and even
cold
card
phones
i noticed
that
some people
stuff up
the coin
return
in cold
card
phones
i just want
to give
out the
800 number
for the
new york
toll
coin
it's
1-800
n-y-t-c-o-i-n
and you can
spell that out
by 690
i believe
that's
2646
and follow
the instructions
it's
1 for vip
to report
broken
payphones
it gives
you a
menu
whether it's
no dial
tone
no coin
return
and you
just follow
the instructions
if you ever
see a broken
payphone
or a stuffed
payphone
these are
9x payphones
now
not cold
cards
okay
now you
had a
question
for our
guest
your guest
what did
i want to
ask the
guests
think hard
now
i forgot
okay
well thanks
for calling
anyway
let's get
another phone
call here
good evening
you're on
yes
this refers
to the
clipper trip
one of the
things i was
wondering was
is it
illegal now
for a person
to make their
own encryption
equipment
not yet
it is
no he said
not yet
it's not
i mean
the big fear
is that
that's going
to happen
is that
one day
the government
will in fact
outlaw
private encryption
but right now
you can make
any kind of
your own
private encryption
that you want
to there's
absolutely no
restriction on
private use
of private
encryption schemes
but it's
an interesting
point
do you think
that that is
on the agenda
to make it
somehow
illegal
although i don't
know how
they would
enforce this
to encrypt
things using
your own
standards
the thing
that i keep
telling everybody
and i mean
i do this
till i'm blue
in the face
is that when
the administration
announced clipper
chip
buried in
its background
documents on
this whole
thing
it said
that
while the
administration
is not
making clipper
mandatory
it also
has decided
that
the United
States
citizens
do not
have
a constitutional
right
to pick
their own
method of
encryption
encryption
so they
already have
set the
constitutional
groundwork
for when
they want
to come
in and
blow
private
encryption
out the
door
and make
it illegal
well now
what are they
basing that
on saying
that we
don't have
the right
to encrypt
something
where is that
in the
constitution
they say
we don't
have the
constitutional
right
to choose
our own
encryption
so that
somebody
says
well you
can't
you know
the argument
would be
well you
can't tell
me
it's a
free
country
you can't
tell me
that I
have to
use only
one method
of encryption
you know
I have
my rights
well they're
saying
no you
don't have
those rights
they're not
in the
constitution
so what
would happen
is they
would outlaw
private
encryption
somebody
would have
to go
to court
and get
it ruled
unconstitutional
and the
government
stance is
well it's
not in the
constitution
therefore you
don't have
it
but what
gives them
the right
to say
that we
have to
use one
particular
form of
encryption
where do
they get
that from
they get
that from
200 years
of rule
in the
country
that they're
the government
you know
okay what
I wanted to
say is
with modern
ICs that
are available
from most
of the
electronic
part
distributors
it's fairly
easy to
make a
random
encryption
device
and decryption
device
and you can
use a
high speed
modem
to transmit
in other
words it
would be
analog
at
one
end
well
it would
use
analog
voice
it'll
give a
digital
output
stream
that would
feed into
the modem
but the
other end
of the
modem
if it
is a
commercial
and FCC
type
approved
modem
would hook
onto the
telephone
line
so they
couldn't
get you
for
hooking
in
a bad
piece of
equipment
to the
telephone
line
okay
any
modem
that's
about
600k
baud
or
higher
would
do
okay
fiber
you have
any
comment
on this
actually
a modem
much slower
than that
would also
do
but rather
than being
unnecessarily
complicated
people are
using safe
encryption
today
simply
through
software
they're
encrypting
things that
they want
to send
and then
sending
them
it doesn't
necessarily
have to be
real time
no
no
I'm
just
talking
about
voice
communication
real time
voice
right
voice
right
oh
okay
yeah
well
like you
say
I mean
it would
be rather
straightforward
to design
a circuit
to do
that
it's not
necessarily
complicated
and
of course
various
companies
sell devices
like that
already
although
they're
obviously
of questionable
security
right
if they
were secure
they wouldn't
be sold
but I mean
it's not
something
impossible
to engineer
yeah
all right
thanks for
the call
all right
any other
thoughts on
encryption
Brock
I just
think it's
really very
interesting
to see
where
clipper
goes
with this
administrator
with this
congress
I don't know
if they're
going to
take up
the issue
or not
I haven't
heard anything
of that
we'll have
any privacy
hearings
or anything
but you know
the clipper
chip is not
dead
I mean
it is still
percolating
away out
there
and the
initiative
is still
very much
alive
I have
recently
filed
Freedom of
Information Act
request
to the
justice
department
trying to
asking for
all the
purchase orders
of clipper
chip encoded
phones
that they
were supposed
to have
ordered
from AT&T
they won't
tell me how
many they
have or if
they've even
ordered any
so I
FOIA'd
the purchase
orders and
we're going
to see
exactly how
much they
paid
and where
all these
things went
and what
will that
tell us
that these
things are
already in
and being
used
and that
AT&T is
already getting
money for
them
and we'll
find out
where
within the
justice
department
the clipper
is being
used
and we'll
just find
out
it will be
interesting to
find out
how widespread
it is
right now
if we find
out that
they've only
got a
dozen or
so clipper
chip phones
in all of
justice
department
then we
have a
great
case
we're
saying
why even
press this
thing
if the
justice
department
which is
the point
man
and all
this
only has
12 phones
and the
whole agency
either the
thing is
busted
it doesn't
work like
it should
or you
guys don't
even have
faith in
it
so we'll
see
I want to
know when
Fiber is
going to
write his
book
Fiber is
continuously
approached by
various agents
of questionable
demeanor but
Fiber isn't
positive when
it is that
he's going to
write Fiber's
adventures according
to Fiber
I mean it's
certainly something
that I'd like to
do at some
point but it's
not anything I'm
particularly eager
to do right now
simply because I'm
so busy only
having been back
for less than a
month but it
is something that
I'll eventually get
around to doing
okay I look
forward to it
okay let's go
back to the phones
good evening you're
on
hello let me
tear my radio
down
concerning GIF
files and the
trademark issue
uh-huh
patent issue
yeah yeah
why am I having
problems with the
radio here we go
let me get that
off
it's a situation
where things can
be used for so
long and a
company will
lose whatever
patent or
trademark right
uh an excellent
example is the
trade name
aspirin which was
originally owned by
a German company
called Bayer
Kimme and this
is back in
1899 obviously
it's an eternity
difference in patent
and trademark law
but you could be
faced with a
situation where GIF
since it's been so
widespread the use
is so widespread
that they could
lose uh the
patent on it
now concerning
also patents
lasting 17
years
there is there
are periods of
time within that
17 years where
maintenance fees
are paid
and if a company
does not meet the
schedule they can
lose the patent
sometimes some
companies
seeing that a
particular device
usefulness may
not go to that
full 17 year
period will just
uh drop
the paying the
fee or sell
one upsell
on the patent
to somebody
else
uh concerning
encryption
one could make
it a second
amendment issue
vis-a-vis the
concept of
encryption being
a weapon against
the state
according to the
view of the
writers of the
federalist papers
of the second
amendment
and uh would
you mind hearing
a strange phone
sound that I
happen to have
come across
uh okay make it
quick
all right
uh here we go
uh you're gonna
have to turn up
your mics a bit
all right
this should be
good
well i i think i
heard some a few
little beeps in
there yeah
right that that
sounded faintly
european but um
i couldn't quite
place it it was
very low
uh how did you
get these phone
sounds
uh you're not
gonna believe
this i did
some wah-wah
dialing realizing
that dtmf is
two signals
one the human
voice can emulate
the two signals
by a the vocal
chords generating
a the fundamental
whose harmonic
is f1 and
varying the mouth
organs to
resonate at a
harmon a
frequent a
fundamental whose
harmonic is f2
and i kind of
like want like
uh let's for
example like
you're not going
to tell me that
was your voice
if you say
you can actually
i've done it i've
uh i've gotten a
lot of you know
we're sorry you're
called did not go
through and uh
one number just
kept on ringing so
a good thing i
dialed star six
seven before that
but uh yeah that's
something i just
like randomly dialed
and i go
and then the line
hung up
you don't know
what number you
dialed to get
that though
uh that's the
advantage of using
those little buttons
on your phone you
know what you're
dialing that way
just speak them
out
this is like a
spoof on uh
9x's voice
dialing
this is actually
where the voice
does the dialing
i guess you've
had voice dialing
longer than
anybody
yeah
all right well
listen thanks for
sharing all that
with us
all right take
care any uh
comments brock on
uh what he had to
say about encryption
and chips
no not really
okay let's uh
see if we can
squeeze in one
more phone call
good evening you're
on uh hi
uh oops not to uh
not to uh not to
defend comp you
serve on such a
wonderful show as
yours okay but um
they have been on
the other side of
this issue uh in
federal court sort of
um when they were
they were sued in
november they were
they were uh brought
to federal court in
november of 1993
because they allowed
on their service
people to uh to
download um
arrangements of
copyrighted musical
compositions in sort
of a free fashion
without paying the
composers and
publishers and the
national music
publishers association
took them to took
them to federal court
and it should be uh
heard sometime real
soon so i think that
they're they're just
sort of you know
maybe they and
unisys are not just
trying to be
capitalistic about it
but are also sort
of you know
watching watching
out for what just
happened to them
does that make any
sense at all
yes uh it makes uh
makes a bit of sense
to me how about you
brock
um well i think it's
two different issues
i really think that
that first of all
with the uh the
suit that was filed
as far as the
performance rights
issues of music
i think compu-cert
was just stupid
um well they actually
it seems more like
they turned a blind
eye uh to what they
knew was a violation
of the law
um because people
were paying the
hourly rate to
download these
copyrighted uh
compositions
i don't think they
were stupid i think
they knew very well
that they were in
violation of the law
and they got caught
well that's what the
court will decide
but the second um
whether they were
stupid or whether
there was criminal
intent so to speak
um or willful intent
the um the second
thing is i'm with
the gif files and
the unisys i really
think that that that
they were blind
sighted i mean i'm
really good at at
detecting when
somebody's trying to
blow smoke up my
butt and this guy
tim from from
compu-cert he's been
straightforward and he
um he's given the
whole history of of
how unisys and
copu-cert developed
this thing and uh
this patent just
came out of the
blue i mean all of
a sudden unisys
showed up at their
doorstep and said
um okay now you owe
us all this money so
i really think that
they've been uh they
were snuggered by it
okay thanks for the
call uh as far as uh
the gifs brock should
we be deleting our
gifs or can we hold
on to them no we can
hold on to them for a
long time okay that's
that's that's reassuring
to hear uh brock give
us some uh some info
how people can reach
you how they can get
updated on various
important topics and
things like that well
you can uh you can
reach me my internet
address is brock b-r-o-c-k
at well w-e-l-l dot com
i can uh correspond to
the email that way and
uh if you want to get
a hold of uh subscription
to cyberwire dispatch
which is uh free it's
on a one-way mailing
list meaning you don't
get any crosstalk you
just receive my
articles you can send
a message to major
domo at cyberworks that's
spelled c-y-b-e-r-w-e-r-k-s
dot com and in the first
line of the message you
don't need a subject just
put subscribe and then a
space c-w-d-l and you'll
be subscribed okay great
well brock i want to
thank you for uh stopping
by and uh and uh telling us
all the interesting things
that are going on and
translating some of the
uh washington talk for us
um and hopefully we'll be
speaking to you again
during the year as as things
get more and more
interesting great always a
pleasure okay take care and
that's our show for tonight
uh we'll be uh back again
we won't be back next week
because there's a marathon
special with the computer
show but we'll be back
again in two weeks with a
three-hour special and boy
do we have some exciting
things planned so uh mark it
on your calendars it'll be
worth it till then
emmanuel goldstein good
night
good evening in the news
tonight after 40 years in
the desert republicans
seize congress promising to
change government as we
know it a conversation with
the original mcgovernic george
mcgovern on newt gingrich bill
clinton and the l word
liberalism and in new york
police officers may face
charges as the medical
examiner's office rules the
death of anthony bias a
homicide with these and other
stories i'm david sears in
new york with verna avery
brown in washington and this
is the news for wednesday
january 4th 1994 first to
washington for these stories
topping the news
the republic