Join us every week.
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a three-hour special on Three Mile Island,
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all that stuff this Saturday,
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special edition of Exploration.
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Good evening.
And this is WBAI,
where the time is now 9 o'clock p.m.
And coming up next is a special edition of Off the Hook
with Mr. Manuel Goldstein.
Please stay tuned.
I'm Valerie Van Nistler,
General Manager of WBAI Pacifica Radio here in New York.
Many of you are probably aware
of the potential funding crisis facing public broadcasting.
The newly elected Republican majority in Congress
has threatened to defund the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.
CPB disperses funds to public radio and television stations,
including WBAI.
This Thursday, January 19th,
the House Committee on Labor and Health and Human Services,
a subcommittee of the House Appropriations Group,
will be deciding whether to eliminate funding for CPB
this year and in the coming years.
WBAI and the Pacifica Network receive approximately 20%
of our overall funding through CPB.
If public and community broadcasting is important to you
and you'd like more information on how to reach your elected officials
to voice your concerns,
please call WBAI at 212-279-0707.
Again, that's 212-279-0707 for more information.
Please make your voice heard by this Thursday.
Thank you very much.
Well, General, Connie and men,
I have something awesome to reveal to you.
Well, go ahead, sir.
Go ahead.
Two flying saucers have just landed on my plate.
Turn away, sir. I'll eat them.
Invasion from without.
Redefining human beings.
Mutation.
Mutants among us.
Systematic mutation within us.
Monday, January 23rd.
Midnight.
A six-hour overnight special.
Mutants in science fiction cinema.
David Cronenberg.
Roger Corman.
John Carpenter.
Wes Craven.
That's Monday.
January 23rd.
At midnight.
Pass the syrup, General.
That's a good idea, Chuck.
But syrup won't stop them.
Next.
Sir?
Colonel?
Are you nuts?
That is just exactly what they want you to believe.
Well, it's three minutes after nine o'clock, and this is not the personal computer show.
The personal computer show is not on this week.
Instead, we have an expanded edition of the technology and telephone and computer and Big Brother show known as Off the Hook.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
It couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
The best expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
One minute loop.
Por favor.
No.
I don't.
No.
I don't.
I don't.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
and very good evening to one and all
this is Emanuel Goldstein
the program is off the hook tonight
we are on for two hours
not three hours as we said two weeks ago
but two hours until 11 o'clock
and we'll be asking for your support
but please a special favor to me
do not call us right now
don't call us
unless you're calling for a misuse program
but please don't call us until you hear what we have to say
and then you can decide
whether or not you want to support such things
in the future
simple enough right?
yeah
this is off the hook
we come your way every Wednesday night
from 10 o'clock to 11 o'clock
and we talk about new games with the phone company
new games with the internet
and various good and bad things
that are happening around the planet
and how it affects everybody
everybody listening in one way or another
whether or not you have a computer
whether or not you have a phone
one way or another
it affects everyone
okay
about a year ago
it was actually a little less than a year ago
we had a fundraiser here at the radio station
for this program
and we did something rather unprecedented
we gave away internet access as one of our premiums
and we did that thanks to an internet provider in New York City
known as escape.com
and the system operator of escape is here tonight
Roman Kazan
let's see if your microphone is working
hello there
okay
you're here tonight
almost a year after that
we set some sort of a record
last time we tried that
so many people called in
wanted internet access for a full year
and it was really
I think everybody benefited from that
the listeners benefited
the radio station certainly benefited
I think we brought in something like $10,000 that night
and we also got a lot of publicity for your system
now it's been several months now
and you seem to be growing pretty exponentially
how has the system been over the past few months?
it's been really busy
I've been answering close to 60 to 70 customer service calls a day
wow
I have an intern who works for me now
and he has been helping out a lot
and we just went through major upgrades in the last few weeks
we upgraded to a T1 and ISDN services
now okay
I was going to bring that up
and now that you've mentioned a T1
tell us
tell the audience out there
what in God's name is a T1
how does it relate to
to you know
somebody picking up a telephone
compare it to a single telephone line
what is a T1?
well in the past we had a 56 kilobit
which allowed 5,600 characters per second to be transferred
a T1 is 24 times faster
okay
so that allows for more people to be able to get on at the same time
in other words
we have room for
more people
we have room
more than what we could handle
I mean
basically we could have a lot more customers
than what we have right now
with the bandwidth we have
does that make sense?
yeah
yeah
it does
it means that
I guess your lines are becoming busier
is that how it
yeah
right now we're waiting for an order from 9x
we're supposed to have an additional 30 lines
we ordered about two months ago
but you know 9x
you have to wait for everything
are you implying that 9x is difficult to work with?
oh boy
they're trying to install one of my 30 lines
and they broke existing lines that I have right now
how does 9x break their own phone lines?
and then they say they're going to busy out those lines
and they don't busy it out
wow
but that's another story
uh huh
well
now
escape is
okay
you have ISDN access
explain to us what that is
ISDN is dial up phone lines that are digital
that run at 64 kilobits
technically they have two channels
and you can connect up to 128 kilobits
which a standard modem line
or a standard normal voice telephone line
the fastest modem that exists right now
is 28 kilobits
and basically that means it runs about
two times faster at 64 kilobits
and four times faster at 128 kilobits
and we're offering that to our customers
I see
so what kind of person would be interested in ISDN?
someone who wants to go on the internet fast
uh huh
and ISDN is
within a couple of years
I guess it would be something that a lot of us will be using
it is all technology
in many European countries
that's all they use
yeah
we're last for everything I guess
well it's because we're so big
you know
we have to allow everybody
in the far reaches of the country
to catch up first
um
okay you also have someone here with you
that is a user of your system
you want to introduce this person?
yeah well basically we've been growing a lot
and other systems have been growing off of Escape
with like
you know they basically get a link
a dedicated line
over to Escape
and then they'll have their own system on the internet
one of those systems is like a virtual mud
it's a city
and it's called
what is it called?
it's called Cybersphere
okay
and that's a virtual city you say?
oh yes
um
I run a site
cybersphere.vv.com
and uh
on the site we have a
virtual reality
it's a
textual based
virtual reality
multi-user game
and
users can tell that in
and they can create their own characters
and they can roam around a city
uh
we have different areas of it called
uh
for example
the night city
or the wastelands
and these are all programmed
uh
in a
object-oriented language
called
moo
for mud
for object-oriented
you say virtual reality
this is not the
virtual reality
you put
uh
um
a helmet and gloves on
is it?
oh correct
correct
this is a
text-based
adventure type game
okay
alright
I guess that'll happen
in the future sometime
when we have virtual reality
over the net
um
but um
what can
what can users
um
uh
do once they access
you
give us a scenario
a typical scenario
oh
a user will
will dial in
they'll be
they'll be able to
uh
create their own character
and describe themselves
uh
textually
and um
roam around
for example
they'll be able to use commands
like
north-south
east-west
um
be able to communicate
with other users
uh
in a chat system
type of uh
scenario
that some people
may be familiar with
and interact with uh
with characters
that are in the game
that are computer generated
and uh
roam around
through different rooms
uh
purchase clothing
uh
kill other players
result
that's
very interesting uh
topic
a lot of people
have formed gangs
and they roam around
there's gangs
roaming around
your system
yes
there are
great
i guess there'll be
another book coming out
about that
uh
so okay
now
people on the internet
now
how can they access
your particular mud
oh so right now
um
if you have an internet
account
you can uh
type telnet
cybersphere
dot vv dot com
and the port number
is
seven seven seven seven
so they'd separate
that with a space
and type four sevens
afterwards
right
okay
now you
you say you run it
off of escape
right
we have a dedicated
uh
twenty eight point eight
uh
kilobit line
uh
through escape
okay
and that's uh
that's a good example
of one of the things
you can do with
internet access
if you want to uh
uh
build upon it a little bit
more
there's straight internet
access and then there's uh
there's making something
more out of it
and you don't have to um
you don't have to have
your own site
you can
you can sort of
um
latch into another site
correct
okay
well everyone latches
into each other
on the internet
that's the whole point
they're all interconnected
like that
now he he needs
your site though
uh
in order to to be
connected to the net
and i need another site
to be connected to the net
and that other site
needs another site
to be connected to the net
as well
right
and that's the nature
of the entire
internet
spreading throughout
the the planet
okay well now
this is what we're
going to do tonight
all right
we're not doing the same
thing we did last year
only because uh
if we did that uh
roman you would probably
go out of business
uh
yeah
probably
and it would be
very difficult to get
in touch with everyone
with the amount of work
i have now
right
i think you
you got something
like a hundred new
users last time
and hopefully those
people that
that signed on
last time
will continue to use
the internet
through escape
because
well i mean
hopefully they're
they're satisfied
with it
oh they
they seem to be
all satisfied
they seem to be
really happy
they call up
with questions
all the time
they're all excited
okay so tonight
and i i caution
those of you
that are far away
from the phone
to drop whatever
it is you're doing
and get closer
to the phone
because we have
a limited number
of these
for a pledge
of one hundred
dollars
you can get
a full year's
access to internet
but
here's the but
there's only five
of these available
that's right
so it's going to
once those phones
fill up
and and people
pledge for those
those five
there's not going
to be any more
that we're giving out
that's for this
entire pledge drive
that's the limit
that we put on this
so 212-279-3400
is our telephone
number
for a pledge
of one hundred
dollars
you can get
full internet
access for a year
unlimited
no time limits
you can call up
tomorrow
and keep your
modem connected
until a year
from now
if that's what
you want to do
but please
don't do that
unless you really
have a lot of
communication
to get out of
the way
we seem to have
three lines lit
so that means
there's only two
of these left
if these people
are in fact
calling to claim
these and not
calling to tell us
to stop doing this
yes
the retail price
for this
so what we charge
is not retail
but the price
we charge
is $16.50
which is $200
a year
this is half price
I don't understand
why it's so cheap
here but
if you go through
other internet
providers
and I won't
name too many
names
but you know
names like
CompuServe
and Prodigy
and those groups
that claim
to offer internet
access but really
don't
because there's
all kinds of
restrictions on
what you can
and cannot do
well those ones
will cost you
quite a lot more
quite a lot more
I mean I've never
even added it up
myself but
we're talking about
many hundreds more
because they bill you
by the hour
there's no such thing
as unlimited time
that's kind of
the whole point
of the internet
is there's unlimited
time
you can
not have to
worry about
distance
about how long
it takes you
to comprehend
something
or to program
something
and that's why
it's good
to have something
like this available
I'm going to say
since all the lines
are lit up
that it's probably
safe to assume
that all of these
have been taken
at this point
and for those of you
that didn't make it
we will have
something else
won't be the same
thing but we're
going to have
something else
in the latter part
of the show
thanks for those
people that did
call in
and take advantage
of this offer
and for those of you
that didn't make it
perhaps you might
want to invest
in speed dialing
for the next time
we offer something
like this
because you would
have gotten
through much
faster that way
alright
thanks Roman
for the generous
offer to our
listeners
thank you
well if they
didn't get through
they could always
call us directly
that's true too
if you still want
internet access
what's the phone
number for Escape?
you can reach
Escape customer service
between 11am and
8pm
Monday through
Saturday
at area code
212
telephone number
888-8780
you like gates
don't you?
oh my favorite
number
ok well you got it
alright so that's
to reach Escape
in case you
want to get a hold
of the net
in that particular way
and you charge
$16.50 a month
unlimited access
$16.50 for either
shell accounts
or slip accounts
and as far as I know
we're the least
expensive in New York
City area for slip
ok
well good luck
to you
and we'll be
checking in
to see how things
are going in the
weeks ahead
thank you
and let's wish
WBAI luck
this time
yeah
ok
well with
generous people
and generous
listeners
we don't need
luck
we just need you
we just need you
to help us out
and give us a call
202-279-3400
now
we don't have
any more of these
I guess
seeing as how
all those lines
are lit pretty
steady
and either
the Italian people
are having
private conversations
with them
or they are
taking information
then we will be
giving out
some other neat
things
in this hour
in fact
we're going to be
making history
here tonight
because we're going
to be doing
something that
has never been
done before
on the radio
at least
not on this
particular radio
station
as far as I know
and I could be
wrong
could be wrong
here
but we're going
to be playing
an excerpt
of something
that happened
last summer
at the
Hackers on
Planet Earth
conference
that's the
opening address
by Robert
Steele
formerly of
the CIA
Central Intelligence
Agency
in case some of
you don't know
that
he said some
very interesting
things in his
opening remarks
we have some
excerpts of those
and if you're
interested in
receiving a
videotape
a videotape
copy of
that particular
speech
as well as
the opening
remarks
and a couple
other things
that we won't
be playing
tonight
that will be
available as a
premium
for those of you
calling in
in addition to
a one year
subscription to
2600 magazine
for a pledge of
$100 you can get
both a one year
subscription and
a copy of the
videotape of
Robert Steele's
opening remarks
at the Hackers
on Planet Earth
conference which
took place last
August right here
in New York City
kind of made
history for the
hacker world
because nothing
like that had
ever been done
before
so what we're
going to do
now is we're
going to cut to
the mini disc
we've never done
this before
we've never played
a mini disc on
the radio at
this radio station
mini discs for
those of you that
don't know this
is what a mini disc
sounds like dropped
from one foot above
the table
all right
now
that's
this is radio
you can't show it
on the radio
so you have to
do things like
that
and we're going
to also insert
it into the
mini disc machine
and you can hear
what it sounds
like
as we insert
it
there
and it makes
little noises
as you press
the buttons
I don't know if
you can hear that
it's very similar
to a CD
very similar
except it's
smaller
it's two and a
half inches
and you can
record on it
which is really
neat
so we took
this from the
videotape
we dubbed it
directly onto
a mini disc
and we're going
to play that
mini disc now
live over the
air
including the
intro
to the
Hope Conference
which is
a piece by
Jello Biafra
and we'll
see if we have
actual audio
coming up from
that
there we go
all right
we are now
hearing the
beginning
and we'll be
back in a
little while
again if you're
interested in a
one year
subscription to
2600 magazine
the hacker
quarterly plus
a copy of
this videotape
which obviously
you can't see
on the radio
for a pledge
of $100
they can be
yours
212-279-3400
you can call
during the
speech
to
her
I
said
yeah
I
could
as
I
said
Thank you.
We interrupt this program with a special bulletin.
America is now under martial law.
All constitutional rights have been suspended.
Stay in your homes.
Do not attempt to contact loved ones, insurance agents, or attorneys.
Shut up.
Do not attempt to think or depression may occur.
Stay in your homes.
Curfew is at 7 p.m. sharp after work.
Anyone caught outside the gates of their subdivision sectors after curfew will be shot.
Remain.
Do not panic.
Your neighborhood watch officer will be by to collect urine samples in the morning.
Anyone caught interfering with the collection of urine samples will be shot.
Houses will be inspected for trace elements at noon.
Anyone who fails to display the required embossed black velvet Mexican painting of Alexander Haig on their living room wall will be shot.
Cameras and surveillance equipment will be posted on all lampposts and streetlights.
Anyone failing to attend required worship services on Sunday will be promptly arrested and dispatched to a re-education resort.
Stay in your home.
Remain calm.
The number one enemy of progress is questions.
National security is more important than individual will.
All sports broadcasts will proceed as normal.
No more than two people may gather anywhere without permission.
You will be described by your boss or supervisor.
Shut up.
Be happy.
Obey all orders without question.
The comfort you've demanded is now mandatory.
Be happy.
At last, everything is done for you.
Nobody move.
You're all under arrest.
You think I'm kidding?
Six.
I got it.
It's kind of scary, isn't it?
The good news is the power has shifted to individuals.
Actually, I have notes on what Eric wants me to say.
Okay.
I'm going to talk a little bit about who am I, why am I here, and how can I help.
And then I'm going to talk about some remarks that I made.
Okay.
Thanks.
Please, shout out if I fade.
And then we will go into some interactive questions and answers, and we can recognize the suits by their niche.
So it will be a ratio of one suit question to four hacker questions, and I'm authorized to enforce that.
All right.
Who am I and why am I here?
I mean, you've got to admit this is a pretty neat trick to produce a suit that talks your language or that is your friend.
I'm here because when I worked on an artificial intelligence project at the Central Intelligence Agency, I read a lot.
And one of the things I read was Howard Reingold's Tools for Thought.
And the other thing I read was Shirley Turkle's My Second Self.
And those books literally changed my life.
Shirley's book gave me an understanding of hacking.
I am not a technical hacker.
I'm an unemployment agency for hackers.
And I do try and help link people together.
But Shirley Turkle, with her book on MIT and the PDP and stuff, really made the point that hacking is an elegant piece of work.
It's not a criminal act.
And all these media people and all these government people that are going around saying hackers are criminals and, you know, we need to break them down.
All these system operators.
I mean, system operators used to be really smart people that had built the machines they were operating.
Now they're a bunch of dumb administrators.
And they get real upset when someone shows up in their system.
And they think you should legislate that person away.
Well, it doesn't work that way.
So that book, those two books kind of got me started on a path.
And ultimately I was asked by the Marine Corps to resign from the Central Intelligence Agency and serve as the senior civilian standing up to Marine Corps Intelligence Center.
And I did that.
And we spent $10 million on a top-secret classified system.
And I talked a little bit about this earlier, so I won't belabor it.
The bottom line is, after a lifetime of collecting secrets, I suddenly realized that most of my secrets were worthless in terms of getting real work done.
And when I did a cost analysis and looked at LexisNexis and BRS and EZNet, and back then Internet was in its infancy in terms of content.
It was mostly chatter.
But I found that for $20,000 a year I could answer 80% of the intelligence requirements of my general officers.
And the beauty of it was the product was unclassified, which meant it could be shared with just about anybody.
And I shared this with a member, a staff, a Marine reservist who was on the House Permanent Select Committee for Intelligence.
And he wrote into the National Security Act of 1992, an office for open-source exploitation.
The director of central intelligence was required to have an open-source intelligence task force.
And he just didn't get it.
Now, bear in mind, intelligence has always used open sources.
But in the 60s and 70s, when we started getting into fancy satellites and clandestine ops against the Soviets, we kind of lost sight of our origins.
The OSS, Miles Copeland's book, Without Cloak and Dagger, talks about how when the OSS was first formed, they had all these lunatic requirements from the State Department, the Pentagon, and so on.
And they put a guy in a room with the New York Times.
And his job was to use the New York Times to answer these questions and just pretend it came from a very complex system of risky agents.
It worked!
It became the most important unit in the new CIA.
And we lost sight of that.
We got too wrapped up in technical collection.
We got too wrapped up in denied areas.
We forgot the basics.
So for me, working for the Marine Corps was a real privilege.
And I learned a lot.
But Gates just didn't get it.
So I asked my general officer, actually I asked my SES equivalent, for permission to run an international symposium on my own time to more or less jumpstart the issue of open source intelligence.
And I got permission.
I met the requirements of SECNAV instruction 5000, which is that you declare your interest, you take no money from the Marine Corps, and your supervisor agrees it's in the best interest of the government.
This is where Howard comes in.
I tracked him down.
I had no idea what a wild man he was.
I mean, Tools for Thought is a very sane, rational book.
And nowhere in there do you see anything about painted boots and magicians' clothes and stuff like that.
But I tracked Howard down.
I got him to agree to speak.
I pulled together people like Bob Kahn, Jake Keyworth, science advisor to the president, Paul Straussman, Admiral Studeman honored us with his presence and made some very sensible remarks.
And don't misunderstand me.
I am a strong supporter of the intelligence community.
I think it needs to maintain its present level of funding.
I just think that Jim Woolsey has failed miserably at reinventing intelligence and getting it back to basics.
So, please, I am not in any way criticizing the intelligence community as a whole.
I just think they need to get a life and come into the modern age.
You know, it used to be the intelligence community with its satellites and stuff used to be like an oasis in the desert.
But now they built a cement bunker around that oasis.
And they don't realize that someone's come along and watered the desert.
And all these private sector information capabilities have blossomed.
And so their answer to taking advantage of that is to drill a little tiny hole in the cement bunker and stick a straw through it and suck on the Internet.
Okay?
And it's going to take them five to ten years to really come up to speed if they continue with that approach.
Anyway, to make a long story short, I got Howard there.
And Howard's condition for agreeing to speak outside of a few little things like money was that I write an article for Whole Earth Review called
Ethics, Ecology, Evolution, and Intelligence, an Alternate Paradigm for National Intelligence.
The whole idea was to create a Citizens Intelligence Corps, to put the power in the hands of the people,
to allow people to be able to make informed judgments by having access.
This includes government bureaucrats that are starved for information.
The special assistant to the President of the United States and the National Economic Council told the Open Source Lunch Club
that for economic strategy and economic decision-making in the White House,
the intelligence community is useless because it's not allowed to look at the automobile industry and so on.
And the rest of the government is lousy at the business of intelligence.
They don't know how to do collection management and distill products and putting them together and get them up into decision memoranda.
So what we have is a really dumb government going through the motions along the machine model lines.
Anyway, that article subsequently led to my going to Hackers 8-0 and Hackers 9-0.
And I know that the management here doesn't recognize the Lake Tahoe hackers.
They're the middle-aged guys that are now legal and making money.
But that really started me getting to know people.
I went out to Europe.
RAP was very good to me.
I gave a talk there.
Got to know Emmanuel and the 2600 environment.
And in fact, when I started my conference, I started bringing hackers in.
And this is one of the points I want to make.
The suits that attended my conference were absolutely flabbergasted at the hackers.
I mean, one of them, Tsutsu, the Japanese guy that does cellular hacking,
talked to an SCS.
That's a general officer equivalent from DIA.
And the guy came back to me later, bug-eyed.
He said, I didn't realize.
I mean, he had this perception of hackers as sleazeball criminals.
And I think part of my role as your friend is to use my suit power to correct those misperceptions.
Emmanuel was face-to-face with Greg Treverton, the vice chairman of the National Intelligence Council at my conference last year.
It was awesome.
I mean, talk about two opposite but complementary poles of brilliance.
Now, going on with this misperception thing.
And I'll wrap up in about five minutes, then we'll go into questions and answers.
It bothers me that people don't understand that we have moved from the industrial era to the information era.
And all these corporations, all these government bureaucracies, all these laws are from an old era.
Thomas Jefferson was a hacker.
He hacked the British Empire.
The American Revolution broke British law.
And it established new law.
Thomas Jefferson, in his memorial in Washington, one of the four quotes that's up there,
is that while he does not believe in the need for frequent changes in the law,
he does believe that the law must keep pace with the human mind.
No more would he have a man wear the coat of his youth than to have old laws applied to new eras.
Now, our government hasn't figured that out yet.
And one of the things that I really am eager to see the President of the United States do
is to commission a presidential commission on cyberspace law.
I have asked Brian Caheen from Harvard to join us at our symposium,
and I'm trying to find $25,000 in funding for him to establish a new legal framework for cyberspace.
I think one of the other points that the management wanted me to make is that you're not alone.
You have now achieved critical mass.
I think it's absolutely phenomenal to see this room full of bright people.
You are the pioneers.
Like the pioneers of the Wild West, you are being crushed by the buffalos.
Bruce Sterling has written a book about it.
Buffalo heard in the attack.
You are being shot at.
You are falling into crevices and dying by the trail.
I just talked to FiberOptic on the phone the other day.
If anyone from Echo is here, be warned, I'm competing for his services.
And I think that you represent a critical national resource.
When the Israelis catch a hacker, they give them a job.
I think this conference, I think of every single one of you as legal, law-abiding citizens
that has enormous potential to make a contribution to our national security
and our national competitiveness defined in a wholly new way,
defined in a way that recognizes that electronic democracy is about popular intellectual power
and that attempting to encumber that power with mandated encryption systems and things like that
is simply not going to fly.
And now one final comment on why I am optimistic about your future.
Charles Perrault has written a wonderful book called Normal Accidents,
Dealing with High-Risk Technologies.
He talks about how with simple systems, you have single points of failure.
They're easy to diagnose.
You can fix them rapidly.
Complex systems, you have multiple points of failure.
They're a little harder to diagnose, a little harder to fix.
With constellations of complex systems, you get very quickly to catastrophic failure.
It's impossible to diagnose.
I think that in this era of complex systems, the power has shifted to the individual
because the power of an individual to completely immobilize, indeed destroy,
a major corporation, a major government unit, a major telecommunications system,
is just phenomenal.
Now, I'm concerned.
I consider you the forces of good.
I consider the people who have picked up some of your methods and are using them for criminal gain
or for malicious satisfaction.
I think they're the enemy.
And I would be very encouraged if the people associated with hope were available at appropriate salaries
to help corporations and help others figure out just how many holes are in their tent.
Again, as I said earlier, you cannot have a secure corporation
if your nation does not have an overall environment that lends itself to security.
With that, let me stop and say that I am really, I consider it an enormous privilege to be here.
I was going to undress for you.
Beneath this suit is a Hackers 9-0 t-shirt from Lake Tahoe and a pair of shorts.
But I do have detractors and enemies, and some of them are in this room,
and they would use it against me in Washington.
So look for me later in appropriate clothing.
With this hat.
Now, please, let me, what kind of questions have you always wanted to ask the spy?
Okay, we're going to get to that part in just a moment.
And we are offering this speech by Robert Steele, formerly of the CIA
and now of Open Sources Solutions in Washington, D.C.,
who gave the opening address at the Hackers on Planet Earth conference this August.
Kind of ironic there.
We're offering that along with a full-year subscription of 2600,
the video and the subscription for a pledge of $100.
That's 212-279-3400 is the phone number to call.
We'll be getting back into the Robert Steele speech in just a moment
as he takes a few interesting questions from some of the audience members.
Robert Steele is a fascinating person to talk to.
He has all kinds of experiences in many different parts of the world
with the most powerful people you could probably imagine.
And here he is talking to a group of computer hackers
about how they fit into the bigger scheme of things
and willing to talk about this about anything.
Now, you heard a lot of laughter there as he put on a particular hat,
but this is radio, so you can't tell what he was wearing.
But if you get the video, you'll find out.
Yeah, for only $100, you can get that video
and a full-year subscription of 2600 Magazine.
The winter issue, which has just come out,
and a lot of interesting things in there.
We're going to go back to the speech now
as he takes some more questions.
And again, our phone number is 212-279-3400.
If you want a video copy of that speech
and the opening part of the Hackers on Planet Earth conference in addition,
as well as a full-year subscription to the Hacker Quarterly,
which will go for four issues,
give us a call now.
212-279-3400.
Help support radio that makes this kind of thing possible in the first place.
212-279-3400.
What's with the NRO, and why did it take so long
to figure out who they are
and why they spend so much money?
And why do intelligence agencies in general
have to keep their budgets secret?
Okay, that's a two-part question.
What's with the NRO,
and why did it take them so long
to kind of get their act together,
and why do intelligence agencies have to keep their budgets secret?
Well, there are a number of senators that agree with you
that the budget should not be secret.
Part of the reason for secrecy,
let me come at it in reverse.
Part of the reason for secrecy is that
how you spend money tells a lot about your sources and methods.
The intelligence community essentially consists of
the clandestine operations,
which is humans handling agents,
where you go out and you recruit someone,
you persuade them to betray their country
or betray their corporation, usually for money.
That's what I did.
I was very good at it.
And I've left that behind me
because I realized a lot of it wasn't very useful.
Now, I still, I think we need to do that.
But I think we need to do it in a much cleverer way.
Right now, it's real easy to recognize who the spies are overseas.
And my personal opinion is that at least 50% of our clandestine assets,
if not more, are already known to local liaison
and they're just stringing us along.
I personally feel the clandestine service needs to be doubled in size,
but it needs to go deep and long.
It needs to have a lot more capability.
But if you revealed its budget,
you would be revealing a lot about how it does business.
So I support secrecy in intelligence.
Let me also say, Keith Hall,
the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Defense for Intelligence,
just gave a great speech to the Open Source Lunch Club the other day,
and he pointed out that intelligence is about secrets.
It's about collecting information which is not available by other means.
There are some nasty, nasty people out there running out all the way from Libya and Iran.
The four warrior classes of the future that I talk about
are high-tech brutes, low-tech brutes like narco-traffickers and criminals,
including you now have a very vicious Vietnamese and Russian criminal gang
that's international in scope.
Low-tech seers, mobs, Islamic fundamentalism,
used improperly.
I have nothing against the religion.
And then high-tech seers,
down to the 13-year-old Pakistani
working through U.S. computers that pay his phone bill both ways
and coming in and running amok.
There's an arms race going on in cyberspace,
and we're not competing.
So I think secrecy is appropriate for those specific details in the intelligence community.
I completely support the community in that,
but I think the totality of the budget needs to be known.
The other thing that concerns me
is that there is a number that is not secret but is not known,
and that is how much the U.S. government spends
on unclassified information collection, processing, production, and dissemination.
I said, you are being ripped off as a taxpayer.
I am being ripped off as a taxpayer.
The U.S. government is the most inefficient information processing
kludge I have ever seen.
And that scares the hell out of me
because we're in the age of information.
Our national competitiveness depends on that.
Now, to the NRO.
The NRO got its start.
I love talking to former members of the NRO.
I say, NRO, NRO, NRO.
It drives them crazy
because, you know, I mean, they've gone through their whole life.
Those, you know, we, I mean, people, when you go into surgery,
they send someone in to make sure you don't say NRO
while you're under a gas.
Same thing with CIA and NSA.
National Reconnaissance Office.
Those are the people that build the satellites
that collect images and signals.
One of the most positive, constructive things
the President of the United States has done in recent months
is direct Jim Woolsey
to put one-meter resolution imagery
into the private sector.
Lockheed and ITAC are competing.
Now, SPOT
is doing real-time imagery.
Okay, they've got a little neat little thing here now
where they can have their satellite over there
and they can bring in this thing on a C-130
and you can see it in real time.
That's cool.
And what the President recognized,
which Jim Woolsey and his deputy directors did not recognize,
is that times have changed.
We can no longer keep the satellite assembly lines open
with that kind of restricted customer base.
and the power of American brains
and American know-how
is going to atrophy
unless we start doing these things in the commercial market.
And I think that it is a shame
that
and that he had to be embarrassed
by the President
with some pushing from George Brown on the Space Committee.
By the way,
a bona fide hacker,
Peter Kennedy,
is on that Space Committee
as an assigned fellow.
Robert Kennedy?
Thanks.
Robert Kennedy is on that committee.
And Robert,
this is a good hacker story.
Hacker in Washington.
Woolsey's in there
testifying to George Brown
and he's staring straight ahead.
He's very angry.
And Brown turns around
and Robert's sitting behind him.
He says,
I'd really love to have that poster
that shows all the satellites in space.
So Robert ambles out of the room.
He calls around town.
He finds out that the editor of Aviation Week
has one over his wall.
He jumps in a taxi,
races over there,
brings it back,
puts it on an easel
and George Brown says to Mr. Woolsey,
I direct your attention
to the number of satellites in space.
Are you telling me
we can't allow Lockheed
to put another one up?
And so Robert,
that's making your bones.
He really impressed
the hell out of those staffers
and that's one small contribution
to the progress of this dialogue.
Now the NRO started
because we didn't know anything
about the Soviet Union.
It was a so-called closed society.
And it seems to be
an American penchant
to try and answer hard problems
with technology
rather than people.
And so instead of developing
really good legal traveler programs,
instead of really putting some effort
into debriefing Soviets
coming out of the Soviet Union
and so on,
we built a really,
gee whiz,
U-2 followed by satellite.
And it took great pictures.
The Soviet Union was so important,
it took those great pictures
day after day
after day after day.
It didn't take pictures
of anywhere else in the world
for all practical purposes.
And I say this,
this is informed judgment.
I was on the Foreign Intelligence
Parties Committee
and all those other things.
It's nice being the second civilian
in Marine Corps intelligence.
Basically the system got perverted
and it became
a gee whiz kind of program.
It was hiding behind
so many closed doors
that it couldn't be,
it wasn't accountable.
Now let's get to
the NRO office building.
I mean in an era
of declining intelligence budgets,
it's in an era
when we've just put
one meter resolution imagery
into the private sector.
Do we really need
a 10 building complex?
No.
This is the last hurrah.
It's my personal feeling
that the NRO
did indeed obfuscate
its budgetary things.
It hid the building in base.
Base is stuff
that's been previously approved.
New initiatives
are things that are coming up
for the first time
and ongoing initiatives
are things that have been approved
but are in their
five year rollover period.
I think Dick Consini
is setting the stage
for the departure
of Jim Woolsey.
I'd be very pleased
if the NRO's office buildings
became the new
open source intelligence
center for the nation.
Another question.
Yes, sir.
Well, okay.
That's a three-part thing.
One is the assumption
I'm primarily military intelligence.
That's not correct.
I spent nine years at CIA.
I was very proud
and pleased to be at CIA.
I still respect that organization
and the people who work there.
I then went to become
a civilian
in Marine Corps intelligence
because they wanted me
to stand up the intel center.
I had had
I'm one of the few people
that served in three
of the four directorates
at CIA.
I've done overseas ops.
I've done satellites.
I've done tech.
And I can read and write.
I mean, it was good.
It was a good package.
I was very proud
to go to the Marine Corps.
God bless them
because they changed me.
Second item.
You assume that the military
is very good
at buying weapons
that kill people
and not very good
at computers
and processing information.
Actually, they're not good
at either.
I helped kill the M1 tank
in the Marine Corps.
The first time
the M1 tank
was bought by the Marine Corps
was bought under pressure
from the Army
which needed a larger buy.
The Army was pushing
the 120 gun
so it could take care
of the central front.
And the Marine Corps
didn't have an intelligence center.
Now, the M1 tank
weighs 70 tons
and it invented the concept
of gallons per mile.
Okay.
It also fries infantrymen
in its vicinity.
The second time
the commandant
had the good sense
he had an intelligence center.
He asked me
his colonel asked me
and so I had a little study.
We went back
and we said
well,
weigh 70 tons.
European companies
will not sell
a commercial truck
that weighs more than 30 tons
to the third world.
Why?
Bridge loading.
Bridges will not carry
more than 30 tons
on the average.
Second,
main gun in the third world
is a 105.
Third,
average weight
of a battle tank
out there
is 35,
40 tons.
Fourth,
you have no
cross-country mobility.
In other words,
the third world
tends to be
very hazardous terrain
outside of about
six countries.
You can't get
from the beach
to the capital city
off-road.
Fourth,
line of sight distance
intervisibility
is under 900 meters.
Geez,
maybe we don't need
the M1.
Maybe we need
a helicopter
with a big bad
stinger on it.
But this is an example
of unclassified intelligence
making a strategic difference
in a major
procurement effort.
Right now,
and I've written
extensively on this,
my article that
addresses this point
on yours
is a critical evaluation
of U.S.
national intelligence
which was in
the International Journal
of Intelligence
Counterintelligence.
I'm under a
lifetime secrecy
agreement.
All of my
written materials
are previewed
for security.
And we don't
do a very good job
of making
informed judgments
about acquisitions
programs.
Once a program
is underway,
we don't do
a very good job
of understanding
the threat
as it's changed.
You know,
when you have
a 10 to 15 year
procurement process
and you have
a private sector
that is able
to develop things
in a year or two
and then you have
people who can
go steal
off-the-shelf
capabilities,
all of a sudden
you have this
mismatch.
Now,
on computers,
it's not the military,
it's not the government,
it's the country.
Take the chief
information officer
concept.
In my experience,
it's mostly
the senior tech weenie.
That's the last person
that should be
the chief information
officer for a company.
The chief information
officer for a company
should be responsible
for ensuring
that every employee
is a collector,
delivery people,
service people,
whatever.
They should be
responsible for
ensuring that
the information
that's collected
is put into
a corporate-wide
database.
My friend
Paul Straussman
invented the concept
of corporate
information management,
which means
one-time data
entry,
corporate-wide
access.
And they should
be responsible
for ensuring
that the information
supports the
strategic intent.
And so,
I don't say
the military
has any answers.
I'm saying
that we as a
country
need to
come up with
some solutions
and you as a
group,
I think,
have a lot
to offer.
For instance,
I'm still
waiting to see
that killer
paper
on how I
would take
down the
United States
in 24 hours.
I mean,
Peter Black
gave it a stab
in Wired
magazine.
He had a
very nice
little article
that listed,
you know,
Barking Sands
Time Antenna
and Culpeper
Switch in
Virginia and
a few other
things.
That was a
fun article.
Winn Schwartel,
his book,
Terminal Compromise,
his lawyers
wouldn't let
him do this
one.
This is a
great book.
You know,
do me a favor,
improve on this
book.
This is
Information Warfare
Chaos on the
Electronic
Superhighway.
It's got a
blur by one
Robert Steele
on the back.
I obviously
believe in this
book.
This book
is my weapon
for scaring
the hell
out of
everybody in
charge of
communications
and computing
in this
country.
Winn Schwartel,
he's here in
the white
shorts and
the Oklahoma
version of a
Hawaiian shirt.
Winn, are you
here?
I guess not.
He's doing more
important things.
He's heard me
before.
But Winn Schwartel,
I encourage you to
talk to him and
frankly, I want you
to write the next
book.
I'd love to see
you guys hope as
an organization
publish a book
on your views
on what's wrong
with our existing
system and how it
can be fixed.
I don't ask you
to publish how
to do it.
Because I trust
you, I don't
trust the people
that will read
your book.
But I think you
have a lot to
contribute.
Another question.
Yes, sir.
Yeah, why do
you think the
current state of
the pure
education
in America
is non-existent?
Education in
America is
non-existent.
And that was
in 1993.
Who left on
to in 1989
elementary school
contained a
tandy color
computer to
an intermediate
school.
There are
Macintosh 2s,
ancient,
and a
Connor 64.
We're supposed
to be the most
industrialized
nation in the world.
We're supposed
to be on the
edge of the
future.
Yeah, but
we're not.
Let me cut
to the chase.
The question
is why do
we have such
lousy computer
education in
this country?
And of
course, I
feel we have
a terrible
education system.
I make the
comment that
we now
sentence
everybody in
the United
States to
12 years in
prison,
followed by
two to four
years in a
halfway house
called graduate
school.
My stomach
turns over
when I see a
yellow school
bus.
And I'm
going to be
watching very
carefully when
my five-year-old
starts school in
September.
Part of the
problem is the
education mafia.
The teachers,
the educational
associations,
they're in the
stone age.
They do not
understand this
stuff.
Frankly, I
would like to
think, again,
it's very
difficult to
lead a
revolution.
It's very
difficult to
make a
revolution.
But we're
now at a
point where
you guys
represent the
new educational
system.
You're self-taught.
You're smart.
You're applied.
You have
unlimited
stamina given
an adequate
supply of
snow cones
and other
things.
And I
think you
represent a
new way of
learning.
We're in a
major transition
period.
And I
think that the
kind of
self-help
that you can
provide one
another, the
kind of coming
together of
boffs, of
birds of a
feather, that's
going to be an
important part of
transition.
I'm starting to
see hackers that
were in jail two
years ago in
very productive
junior engineering
positions.
And I think
it's one of
the purposes of
a forum like
this, and one
of the things
that I try and
do in my own
activities, including
my newsletter, is
to help people
understand that
it's what you
can do, not
whether you
have that
diploma.
Now, having
said that, I
would also put
an expiration
date on all
diplomas.
You guys want
me to stop, or
more questions?
More?
All right.
You, sir, and
then in the
back.
Please stand
up.
What?
Yes, sensitive
compartmented
information facilities.
Probably not.
I suspect the
information is
available.
Oh, I'm
sorry, is the
public aware of
how much money
has been spent on
Tempest, which
is emissions
protection, so
that you can't
use the Van
Ecke emissions
effect and use
one of those
$100,000 radio
shack vans to
capture stuff, or
whatever you've
cooked up.
Tempest is a
very viable and
important program
for protecting
secrets.
It is
unfortunately not
at all common
in the corporate
sector.
Hughes STX
had an excellent
computer and
communication security
program, and it
went belly up,
because the
market wasn't
ready.
Well, it's
ready now.
And I think
that BDM and
a couple of
other firms that
I'm working with
are going to
start moving
towards serious
money-making.
The big thing,
we were talking
about this
earlier, is your
corporate
information systems
have 20%
proprietary that
deserves Tempest
protection, and
80% that
doesn't.
But because the
proprietary is on
the big system,
they can't afford
to Tempest the
whole system.
And because the
proprietary is on
the big system,
they won't allow
the employees to
reach out and
barter and share
that encyclopedia.
So they're losing
twice.
One of the most
fundamental things
people have to do
is decide what you
really want to
protect, and give
it Tempest, full
encryption, authentication,
reliability, and so
on.
The other stuff, you
need to have an open
network, and at the
same time, you need
to work aggressively
through your
government
representatives, your
lobbyists, and so
on.
I think I'm being
thrown off.
Well, yes, actually,
Robert, you are being
thrown off because we
are running out of
time, and we do have
to move ahead with
the program.
However, what you
have been listening
to is a large part of
the Robert Steele
speech, which took
place at the opening
ceremonies, as they
were, of the Hackers
on Planet Earth
conference.
Robert Steele being a
former operative for
the Central Intelligence
Agency, and someone who
seems to have a fairly
enlightened view.
Now, you won't agree
with everything he
says.
I know I don't agree
with everything he
says, but it's the
way he says it.
It's the way that he's
willing to bridge some
gaps and speak to
people that you would
not expect someone
affiliated with the
Central Intelligence
Agency to do.
So that's why we
asked him to be a part
of the conference, and
that's why we played
his remarks tonight, and
that's why we hope that
you will call us up and
show some support for
the radio station that
makes all of this
possible, WBAI in New
York.
Our number is
212-279-3400.
While we will accept
any pledge that you
can offer us, because
every little bit helps
and we all kind of add
up together to make
something really, really
big, a pledge of
$100 will get you a
copy of the videotape,
which goes on for quite
a bit longer than that,
as there were some
remarks beforehand, there
was an opening address,
and, of course, all the
video that you don't see
on the radio.
In addition to that,
you will get a full year
of 2600 Magazine, the
Hacker Quarterly, and a
year of the WBAI Folio.
That's for a pledge of
$100.
Remember, we take Visa and
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212-279-3400.
We're up to $925 for this
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We're on for another
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the halls of WBAI as a
success.
So, 212-279-3400.
Walter is here.
He's one of the co-organizers
of the Hackers on Planet
Earth Conference.
Greetings, Walter.
Hiya.
You, I understand, actually
met face-to-face with
Robert Steele, and you had
an interesting encounter
with him.
Yeah, I was very
productive.
He's a fascinating person,
isn't he?
He is.
Yeah.
We had a decent
conversation.
Tell us.
Tell us what happened.
He was behind me in line
for the ID cards at Hope.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
I was waiting on line in
the middle of the night
because most of the time
I was in the kitchen
working on the systems.
That's where the network
operations center was in
the kitchen.
Yeah, the kitchen.
It's too bad they never
fixed that leak on the
floor.
Yeah.
The roaches were plenty
of fun, too.
Yeah.
Well, they kept people
out, but...
So, okay, tell us about
your conversation.
Well, he was behind me
on line, and he asked me
whether I was in line.
Uh-huh.
And I turned around and
yelled at him, I'm in line,
but you're out of line.
Ah, you said that to
Robert Steele, huh?
Yeah.
Wow.
And that kind of
killed the conversation.
Boy, that's something.
But for what it was,
it was pretty interesting.
Did you know at the time
that he was a former
operative of the CIA?
Yeah, yeah.
No, I actually knew
it was him.
Uh-huh.
I missed his, the opening
speech.
Well, if you listen to the
radio just now, you will
have heard some of it.
Yeah.
You know where he comes
from, though?
You know, basically,
his viewpoints.
Yeah, yeah.
It's actually very surprising.
It makes me a little
suspicious.
Uh-huh.
What do you, what do you
think he's, uh...
That he is so open-minded
and, uh...
Mm-hmm.
Well, he has a lot of
enemies in, in Washington,
D.C.
That much seems pretty clear
because, uh, he's, he's
advocating opening so many
things up.
And a lot of people in
Washington, D.C., survive on
making things as closed as
possible, kind of like, uh,
you know, the Kremlin or
something, almost.
Right, right.
And, uh, yeah.
Robert Steele, it's really
surprising, Robert Steele,
working as a former, as
working for the CIA, it's
really surprising hearing
what he has to say.
And, uh, he actually has
very intelligent viewpoints
about these things,
though, and, uh...
Mm-hmm.
I would tend to agree with.
What I thought was really
good, though, was, was
being in that room with, uh,
about 500 computer hackers
who were all asking him
questions, you know, and
there was this back and
forth between the CIA guy
and, and computer hackers.
And, uh, I mean, how often
do you get something like
that?
How often do you actually
get the chance to, to put
somebody up on the spot
like that and have him, uh,
you know, take what you
say seriously?
I mean, it's, uh, it's
kind of what we exist for
here and, and what we've
been trying to do with the,
with the magazine as well,
to bridge some gaps, to
have people talking to each
other from totally
different sides of the
fence.
And, uh, of course, to do
that, you have to have
some kind of a desire, uh,
to, to meet with somebody
who you may not see
completely eye to eye with.
And that's, that's what he
did.
That's what a lot of people
at Hope did.
And that's basically what
we're asking people here
tonight to do as well, uh,
is to invest a little time
and money into, uh, the
radio stations that we can
continue to bring, uh,
opposing views and, um, and,
and, and different people,
not only to the airwaves, but,
uh, but, you know, to the,
to the city, to, uh, to the
community as, as a whole.
Well, you know, WBAI was a
major part of the Hackers
on Planet Earth conference
because, uh, how do you
think you, you get the word
out on something like that?
You have to tell people,
you have to spread
knowledge around.
And when you have a 50,000
watt radio station in the
middle of New York City,
that's a fairly good vehicle
for doing that.
But the flip side is that
we need support so that
people can continue to do
this in the future.
So if you support the idea
of, of communication, of
bridging gaps, of getting
people together and hearing
differing opinions and, and,
and just things that you
may or may not agree with,
give us a call now.
212-279-3400.
We have no phone calls.
Can you believe this,
Walter?
No phone calls.
Unbelievable.
Unbelievable.
We are, we are broadcasting,
uh, to, to three different
states, maybe even four
different states from, from
what I can tell.
And we are, we are, uh,
sharing things that nobody
else shares in this
particular, uh, airwave.
Uh, so please give us a
call.
212-279-3400.
We need to, uh, to get
several pledges.
Now, in addition to, uh, uh,
to the Robert Steele
speech, you will be able to
get a full year of 2600
magazine.
The winter issue has just
come out.
And this is what the winter
issue sounds like from a
foot above the desk
dropping.
See?
It's pretty thick with
information there.
And in fact, you know what?
It's going to get thicker.
It's going to get thicker.
I am authorized to say that
in the spring 1995 edition,
there will be, uh, an extra
few pages in here.
I think we're going from
48 pages to 56 pages or
something like that.
So, um, if you, uh, take
advantage of this offer by
calling 212-279-3400,
pledging $100, you will be
getting a full year of this
magazine with more pages
and you'll be getting the
Robert Steele Hope intro
videotape, uh, never before
available to anybody.
Uh, that's for a pledge of
$100.
And again, you can use Visa
and MasterCard and spread
the payments out for the
rest of your life, I guess,
if, if, uh, that's what
they like when you do that.
Um, but again, if, if, if
you're not interested in any
of this, but you want to
support the radio station,
we will accept any amount.
And that's, that's, that's
certainly true.
So if you have ever gotten
anything out of this
particular radio program
off the hook, please give
us a call now, 212-279-3400
and pledge whatever you can
afford.
I mean, if we have, um,
seven phone lines light up
right now and everybody
pledges $25, you know,
that's, uh, help me out
here, Walter, what is that?
That's, uh, $175.
Thank you, thank you.
So nice to have
mathematician types around
$175, just like that, you
know, and, and $25 is, is a
fairly small amount, uh, for
any, any particular pledge
drive.
I mean, I don't think
they'll even allow you to
do that on public television.
I don't know.
Uh, so please give us a
call, 212-279-3400.
Usually all these phone
lines are taken up with
people asking all kinds of,
uh, of strange questions
and sharing information.
Um, all of that is made
possible by the people that
call tonight and pledge
support.
Invest in the radio station.
We don't have commercials.
We don't have any other
way of doing this.
We really don't.
And if we, um, if we lie
back and allow people like
Newt Gingrich to, uh, to
dictate our future, well,
we're going to have a very
interesting future.
Let's just put it that way.
He thinks that, uh, Channel
13 is too liberal.
Channel 13.
Now, this is WBAI.
We are the alternative to
Channel 13.
So, you know, imagine,
imagine how Newt Gingrich
feels about, uh, about
Pacifica radio.
I'm sure it's not high on
his list of things to
listen to, and, and it is
very high on his list of
things to chop.
So, um, not that we get
money from Newt Gingrich,
but if he, uh, if he had
his way, he'd figure out
all kinds of things to make
life more difficult for us.
And when you have
authority figures, people
in government trying to
make life difficult for you,
life does become difficult,
but all of us together can,
uh, can fight it, can
prevent it from happening
and make things a lot easier.
Your call now will make
things a lot easier for us.
Uh, we're, I know we're
at 925, but we've had a
couple of phone calls, so
hopefully those phone calls
have been nice, generous
pledges.
Again, 212-279-3400, we
have yet to see, apart from
when we were offering the
escape accounts before, we
have yet to see a full set
of, uh, of phones lighting
up, you know, and that's
sort of a tradition here at
Off the Hook.
At least once we get all the
lines lit up and people in
the, in the tally room are
running around frantically
trying to answer all the
phones.
So, this would be a good
time for that to happen.
212-279-3400.
Walter, I know you'd be
pledging if you weren't
sitting here on the radio
right now, isn't it?
Uh, if I, if I had some
money, I'd be pledging.
Okay.
Anything I had.
I, I think you should add
an extra little bit of
spice to your offer.
You could probably waive the
special fee to decode the
message in one of the
letters on one of the
pages.
Well, okay.
I think, uh, people get
excited about that.
Yeah, well, you know, we
do have a premium page in
2600 magazine, not, not
unlike those premium
channels on cable.
However, you are not
authorized to read the
page unless you pay the
fee.
Um, I mean, that's just
the way, that's just the
way it is.
I mean, I'm following, you
know, the footsteps of, of
all these other
corporations that we all
admire and try to emulate.
So, um, you know, yeah,
people, uh, people aren't
allowed to read that unless
they pay the extra fee, but
we can work something out.
We can work something out
where in addition, in
addition to the magazine,
in addition to the
videotape, we will, uh,
give you the, uh, the
access needed to read that
page.
How's that?
Yeah.
Okay.
Fair enough.
Fair enough.
This is open information,
you know, freedom of
information here.
212-279-3400.
We have two callers on the
line.
Let's make it another five
that will light every line
up.
212-279-3400.
Here's something.
In case you're, you're
wondering what 2600
magazine is all about,
this is the kind of news
story that you will, you
will hear, you will see in
the magazine.
From the Bulletin of the
Ministry of the Information
of the Republic of Kosovo,
that's at the Republic of
Serbia near Albania, this
is dated August 22nd, the
presence of cordless
telephones in numerous
private Albanian homes has
been of great concern to
Serbian police authorities
with the revelation that
in some cases, police wave
bands can be overheard.
Consequently, Serbian police
have embarked upon a mass
search of Albanian homes
throughout communes of
Kosovo in order to seize
telephones which,
police believe, are being
used to eavesdrop on police
communication frequencies.
In many cases, families
found in possession of
such phones have been
subjected to physical
maltreatment.
Incidents of this type have
been reported in different
communes with over 54
telephones seized, each
seizure accompanied by
maltreatment of Albanian
residents.
Albanians affected by this
police action have pointed
out that they had purchased
the phones legally and
with the full knowledge of
Serbian telecommunication
authorities and had paid
up to 2,500 Deutschmarks in
order to be connected.
That's an example of some
of the things that happen
in the rest of the world
that you can relate to
what's happening here and
see how a couple of steps
further would be a very,
very bad scene indeed.
For instance, in this
country, it's now illegal to
listen to cellular phone
calls.
It's very hard to buy a
scanner that has cellular
capabilities.
That's between 800 and 900
megahertz.
They've actually gone and
done this.
We've been talking about
this for years on this radio
program, but unfortunately,
we've been unable to stop
it from happening.
It's now illegal to listen.
I mean, it always was
illegal to listen, which was
absurd in itself, but now
it's virtually impossible to
get a scanner that has that
capability.
Now, why do we want to
listen to cellular phone
calls?
Well, we don't really want to
listen to them, but the
fact of the matter is they're
being broadcast on the radio
spectrum unencrypted.
Now, that in itself should be
something to tell you that
it's not safe, it's not
secure.
You should know this by
simply masking out that
particular frequency and
making it illegal to listen
to it and impossible to buy
a radio that has those
frequencies.
You're providing a false
sense of security to
customers that use cellular
phones.
They think that people can't
listen, but people can.
Certainly the government can.
Certainly they can access
these scanners and listen in
on various frequencies.
However, the rest of us are
not allowed that.
A better solution would be to
encrypt the conversations, but
then, of course, the
government wouldn't be able
to listen in to the
conversations in the first
place, so that won't work,
will it?
You see, this is the kind of
thing that is an ongoing
discussion both on this
radio program and in 2600
magazine, and relating it to
what's going on in Serbia is
something that we need to do.
We need to see how these
ill-informed policies can become
very dangerous policies, can be
used against human rights, can be
used to hurt people.
I remember a few years ago, you
had to have your typewriters
registered in Romania.
That's another example of how
crazy things can get.
But how crazy is that really?
Do you think one day, maybe,
because of all the child
pornography being peddled on the
net, we might have to register all
of our computers so everybody
knows who's where?
There's definitely a move afoot to
get things under control.
You know, the authorities feel that
they've lost control and that they
need to keep track of what's going
on.
Everybody needs to have a tracking
device of some sort.
It sounds crazy.
It sounds crazy, but it's happening.
It's happening all the time in
little tiny steps.
And when you look back and see how
far you've gone, see how far the
social security number has gone as
far as becoming a person number.
20 years ago, that was inconceivable.
Today, everybody uses their social
security number for everything from
the phone company to registering for
school.
That's just the way it is.
So we need to keep an eye on these
things.
And Off the Hook is one way of doing
that.
If you support Off the Hook, please
give us a call now.
212-279-3400.
We need to hear from you.
We're up to 1075, which is nice.
It means we've gotten a couple of phone
calls, but it's not nearly enough.
I know, I don't want to sound like an
ingrate.
We thank the people that called in
so far, but we need to hear from more
of you because we know you're out
there for one thing.
Don't make us call you.
We know you're out there.
All right.
212-279-3400.
A lot of people get information.
All right, I'm going to prove it right
now.
I'm going to prove it right now.
If you have a question of any sort or
an observation of any sort, give us a
call now on our special line to be on
the air.
212-279-3407.
Well, that didn't take long, did it?
Now, you see how quickly people call in
on that line?
It's all filled up now.
All the lines are taken up.
Now, you see how...
I'll take the calls, too.
I'm not going to, you know, confuse
people by giving out a number and not
taking the phone calls in the first
place.
But, that's the kind of response we need
on the other lines.
It's very important.
212-279-3400.
Now, there's definitely people out there
because they just responded to me.
Please, give us a call now.
212-279-3400.
If you do not give us a call, and if
everybody doesn't give us a call, we just
become weaker.
Think of the people that will be happy by
us being weaker.
All right.
I've said enough, but I hope that the
point has been made.
212-279-3400.
Please give us a call.
We're speaking to you.
Good evening.
You're on.
Hi.
Okay.
If my account wasn't overdrawn today,
maybe I'd give you guys some money.
Well, you know, we take credit cards.
We take credit, I suppose.
Yeah.
Visa and MasterCard.
That would be a bad idea right now,
but maybe next month I'll have some
money, and I'd like to give you money.
Okay.
Well, why don't you tell the people out
there who aren't in such dire straits
why you think it's important to give
money to this radio station?
There are less and less sources of real
information out there.
It's true that I get on Internet every
day, and I listen to CNN, and I watch
C-SPAN, and I guess you could get lulled
into a false sense of having knowledge
about all the information that's out
there.
But something's missing.
It's kind of like reading Animal Farm.
The animals notice that something's missing
from the Constitution, but they don't know
exactly what.
And listening to WBAI actually helps me to
get back to the center again and see what's
going on.
But what I would like to ask you, just to
change the subject for a moment, is how do you
get on to the real Alt-2600 on Internet, the
one that they say the real hackers go on?
Well, I don't know who's saying that, but
there is really only one Alt-2600.
It's a Usenet news group.
There's no way to distinguish between one
and another.
Well, there are some hackers who seem to
say that that's not the real one.
The one that anyone can get isn't nearly as
interesting, they say, as the hidden news.
Well, that sounds like a hacker-lorer.
What do you say, Walter?
Yeah, I think that's someone trying to play
with you.
Someone's trying to yank your chains there.
Where do you get your service from?
I get it from Panix right now.
Okay, Panix has a full feed.
I know they get everything from Alt-2600.
You know, my cable company, Cablevision, is
doing testing now on Internet access.
And luckily, I get to talk to the people who
are in charge there, and I'm trying to
convince them that it's important for them
not to try to censor or police, because
after all, the phone company doesn't truly
do that.
So why should the cable company?
Well, have they expressed...
Only considering it.
Have they expressed an interest in this?
In censoring?
Yes.
Yes, they have.
And how have they done this?
How have they done it?
Yes.
Well, they haven't done anything yet,
because they're only testing.
Okay, but how do you know that they are
interested in censoring?
Oh, how have they done it?
Because I've spoken to the people who are
in charge of giving Internet access to their
cable subscribers.
And what are some of their concerns?
Well, they're just concerned that they don't
want people to do anything, quote, illegal,
unquote, or, quote, unsavory, unquote,
on their network equipment, you might say.
I see.
Well, they definitely have the wrong idea as
far as what the net is all about.
Right.
It's important, you know, as an Internet user
since around 1983, I feel that I've had a
little experience, and I just think that my
conversations with them are important, but I
think other people need to make it clear to
them.
People who are on the net and understand the
net need to make cable companies who are just
about to get into this business not get in the
way of the freedom of information that the
Internet has given up to this point.
Absolutely.
And I think it can draw some parallels between
what we're trying to do here, what we're trying
to do in the magazine, and what we're doing on
the net.
It basically is, I don't know, I think it's sort
of like a natural human instinct to just want to
be able to express yourself freely and reach out
and contact other people.
And it seems to be something we always have to
fight for because there are those that say that
kind of thing is dangerous.
Now, how can communication be dangerous?
How can talking to like-minded people and just
sharing things be dangerous?
Well, it can be if you have, you know, a certain set
agenda that dictates that you don't want people to
be able to do this.
You want to weaken them.
You want to have total control.
So, you know, it sounds really ominous.
I agree.
And it sounds a little paranoid, but when you just
advance things a couple of steps, you see that there
is a real danger in allowing that kind of thinking to
dictate the way we all live.
Well, it's just words for the most part.
So what's so dangerous about words?
Words are probably the most dangerous thing there
are in the eyes of those in control.
And I think that's true of any government, democratic,
totalitarian, you name it.
Yes.
Well, it just seems pretty bad when corporations, such
as Cablevision, start taking on that role and feel that
they need to.
I said to them that it's much simpler equipment-wise,
especially, not to have any kind of filters, not to have any
kind of watchers, whether software or human, and they're
thinking about it.
Well, let's hope that they do, and I hope you continue to
exercise some influence over them.
I'll try.
All right.
Thanks for calling.
Thank you.
All right.
Now, please, folks, 212-279-3400.
Call us.
Show your support.
You see the importance of it.
You see the importance of one person being able to get out
there and say something to somebody in a position of
influence.
You know, we all have that power, and right now, tonight,
especially, we all have the power to make a difference.
You know, we're not making anything out of this.
We're not getting a commission for our particular radio
programs as we try and raise money for the radio station.
We all benefit from this.
The radio station benefits.
The listeners benefit.
212-279-3400.
Now, if you want the package of the videotape and the
Hacker Quarterly, for $100, please call us now if you want
something else.
There's all kinds of things.
There's all kinds of neat things that we have here at the
radio station.
Please call us.
212-279-3400.
There's a whole room full of volunteers, and they're just
kind of sitting around right now engaging in small talk
because the phones are not ringing.
212-279-3400.
Please give us a call.
Good evening.
You're on the radio.
Yeah.
Hi, I'm Manuel.
This is Roy from New Jersey.
Hi, how are you doing?
Okay.
You know, saying the words have power is really very apropos.
When I was driving back from a meeting, I turned on your
station, and I heard this gentleman speaking, Robert Steele.
And I started feeling very uneasy as I was listening to him.
And I started hearing very key phrases, and all of a sudden it
was like, welcome back to the fold.
You know, all you crazy, weird, far-out hacker guys, we really
love you.
Come on back.
Work for us.
Mm-hmm.
And pretty soon he starts creating these boogeymen on the
internet, these crazy Muslims and all these other things.
Of course, nothing against their religion, mind you, but only those
bad ones we don't want.
Right.
And I'm really getting nauseous.
Uh-huh.
And, you know, this, I was just, I just couldn't believe I was hearing this
type of thing.
And then, of course, I came upstairs, I pulled my car in the apartment, I came
upstairs, at which point I hear that he was a member of the CIA.
Right.
Now I know his agenda, and I was just, I was really upset even hearing that coming through
my speaker, because I can get that from Ted Koppel.
Well, yeah, that's true.
But sometimes you need to be upset to really hear what's going on out there.
Now, Robert Steele is a moderate.
He's somebody that, you know, that has a sense.
What passes for moderate now is still rather right-wing.
I know.
Oh, I agree with you totally.
But we need to be open to these things to hear what the people are saying and realize
this is reality.
We have to somehow deal with it.
Now, how do we deal with it?
Well, the first thing we do is we listen to what they're saying and look at how much
power they have.
You know, and we as computer hackers also have a lot of power.
Of course, we're not at all organized.
We just have our curiosity to guide us.
But there are a lot of people out there taking an interest in what we discover and what we
do.
I mean, there's been so much media attention devoted to us over the past year or so.
It's important that we not close our eyes and just assume everything's going to work
out the way we want it to.
It only is going to work out if we pay attention to what's happening around us.
And I think listening to what Robert Steele says, listening to what other people say
is a good first step.
Well, I'll tell you, I know there's a lot of young kids out there that are really into
this stuff and they may not have a lot of parental...
...wives are wrapped up in this.
And when they hear this great father image say, welcome to the fold, I just want to say
warning, watch out.
Yeah, that's an important message to heed.
I agree with you there.
I'm a long-time subscriber and what I do is I remind myself of what it felt like one
day when I got in the car and I turned the radio on and there was nothing there.
And my stomach dropped out.
I said, God damn it, Reagan got him.
What happened to us?
I think you went off the air for maybe a couple minutes.
Oh.
But my heart sunk and it was really scary because there's really no other form of media as far
as electronic media that has what the AI offers.
You're absolutely right there.
It's something that is so precious, so rare and something that...
I mean, I've been traveling.
In fact, I have a great story to tell in a few minutes about traveling to other parts
of the country.
And when you go to other parts of the country, you just don't hear this kind of thing.
You hear emptiness or worse, you hear American contemporary music of various sorts.
And it's all the same and the announcers all sound the same.
It's sad, but that's just the way it is.
New York is different.
BAI is different.
We have a rich history dating back 30 years.
And we want to be here for another 30 years.
We want to be here for another 300 years as long as the FM spectrum is around.
But we can only do that if our listeners stay with us and continue to support us.
Because, God forbid, we ever have to start taking commercials because we don't get enough
money from the listeners, all of a sudden the magic will disappear.
We'll be forced to kind of tone down our remarks so that we don't offend Exxon.
When's the last time you heard a commercial radio station really offend Exxon or the phone
company?
Hey, you're preaching to the choir here.
I'm going to back off and listen to your show.
Okay.
Bye.
Hey, thanks for calling.
I think in many, many cases our listeners say it better than we do here.
We have two phone calls on the line.
212-279-3400.
Please give us a call.
Show your support.
Add your support to those people already on the line because you'll see together we make
a difference.
Individually we make a difference, but together when we link hands and join up and become a
part of the whole process, that's real power.
212-279-3400.
Going to take a quick musical break here.
And we'll be back with some more info and I've got an interesting story to tell and who
knows what other surprises we might have.
But please keep those phones ringing.
212-279-3400.
This is WBAI in New York.
Hey, Rasta man.
Nice wig.
You want to buy a gun?
No, man.
No, man.
Everybody in America has a gun.
Watch there.
Just because I have locks on my head don't mean I have to carry a M-16.
Don't get upset about it, man.
I thought all you rock-a-wig-eye types had gun.
Well, I'm on gun for sure you'd say that's a misconception.
Boy, I feel like grab the mic, tell everybody, say.
Check this.
All around in the city, I see jets and pistols at their sides.
Fighting ganja wars with bullets and running for their very lives.
Now it's so hard to accept them.
The Rasta man's under attack.
But these men killing and stealing do Nazi jar, now it's a fact.
And so I cry wolf.
I'm gonna cry wolf.
It's time to cry wolf.
I and I cry wolf.
I cry wolf.
So let me get this straight.
You don't want a gun.
You're not wearing a wig.
And you're not telling me no shoe.
Hey, hear what I'm on after say now.
I'm on to live my life, italy, naturally.
I'm on works called from the Bible.
So I don't deal with no folly like Babylon.
A man has paid according to his works.
So just say, check this.
I was at a reggae dance in Brooklyn.
The mood was set, the sound was nice.
Until the crowd started to scatter.
And then a locksman pulled a knife.
Now when I saw the two men fighting.
A sadness grew inside my heart.
How could a man claim he's a Rasta when he tried to tear the man apart?
And so I cry wolf.
I'm gonna cry wolf.
I wanna cry wolf.
I and I cry wolf.
I cry wolf.
Woe be unto the pastors that lead our sheep astray.
And to the leaders that cause us to err in our ways.
Selah.
For many shall be called, but just a few chosen.
So be cautious of the wolves, hiding beneath the sheep's clothing.
His head to fear is like the pure wool.
His eyes are like the fiery flame.
The lion of the tribe of Judah.
And Rastafari is his name.
So if you have wicked intentions, you better cast them far away.
For the wrath of the almighty will be coming forward this day.
And so I cry wolf.
I'm gonna cry wolf.
I wanna cry wolf.
I wanna cry wolf.
I and I cry wolf.
I'm gonna cry wolf.
I want to cry wolf.
It's time to cry wolf.
Rastamon cry wolf.
Cry wolf.
Cry wolf.
Cry wolf.
Cry wolf.
Cry wolf.
Cry wolf.
Cry wolf.
I guess you don't want to buy a gun
You got that right, man
Maybe I got a jersey
A message to Babylon
Back off, back off
We're not crying wolf when we say we need your support
212-279-3400
Shout out to Self-Defense
Q-Brit and the WUSB crew
For putting this particular record out
Several years ago
Some valuable messages enclosed
The most valuable message for the moment, however
Is to call
212-279-3400
Show your support for non-commercial radio
For alternative ideas
And just for standing together
So we can tell our stories
And be able to get out there
Reach the people
That's the important thing
212-279-3400
Hey, you know, I took a trip this past weekend
Down to North Carolina
That's right, Jesse Helms territory
Oh boy
It's really alien land down there
As far as
As far as the eye can see
The way I went down there
I took a train down to Washington, D.C.
And then
Rented a car
And drove through Virginia
Through North Carolina
To a place called Charlotte
Which in itself
Is not a bad place at all
In fact, they're getting a football team next year
Do you know that?
They haven't built the stadium yet
But, hey
They're gonna
They say they will anyway
And, you know, for the most part
I'd have to say
That even though Jesse Helms
Has control over the place
It's not that bad, you know
It seemed kind of nice
I mean, people there were friendly
People there were able to
To, you know
Speak English
Or whatever language you wanted to speak
Understand where you're coming from
You know, they were human beings
And it was kind of like that
The whole philosophical thing
Where you
You kind of
Wake up to the fact that
We're all brothers here
On this planet
And we all have to
Start getting together
We all have to
Help each other
And support each other
And it was kind of nice
That is
Until I started driving home
That's right
I drove home yesterday
The old return trip
Was from Charlotte to Washington, D.C.
And, you know
I've been stopped by cops
Many, many, many times in my life
I don't know why
Maybe it's because I look bizarre
I don't know
That's always a good starting point
You know, people stop you
Because, you know
You're either black
You're young
You have long hair
You have a bumper sticker
On the back of your car
That says death to pigs
Or something like that
And, you know
I didn't have that
Don't worry
But I can't imagine
Why people do that
To their cars
Actually, maybe I can
After some of these incidents
But in all the time
That I've been pulled over
By various law enforcement agencies
I think maybe I've gotten
One ticket out of it all
And it's been fairly cordial
For the most part
Of course, there were the times
Entering the country
From foreign lands
Such as Canada
Where I've been searched
Extensively
And looked over
Like I was, you know
Some kind of
Mastermind criminal
Real mastermind criminal
That is
Not just thought crime
And then, of course
There are a couple of times
In foreign countries
Such as Yugoslavia
And East Germany
Where people were
Kind of suspicious
Of Grateful Dead T-shirts
Among other things
But again
It all passed
Without bloodshed
Without any kind of
Real unpleasantness
And for the most part
It was an educational experience
Well, on this particular occasion
I was driving down
Interstate 85
Going north actually
On 85
And, you know
I passed by this
I guess it was
An accident scene
Or something
Some kind of scene
Where there was
A police presence
And did what
Everybody else does
Went at a nice
Normal speed
Instead of the usual
75 miles an hour
That everybody seems
To go down there
And I kept within
The confines of traffic
And realized
That there were now
Police
Right behind
That will probably
Be leaving that
Accident scene
And zooming up
At 120 miles an hour
Trying to find
Other people
That are going
66 miles an hour
Instead
So
I kept
A nice conservative
Speed
So did everybody else
That's kind of
The language of the highway
When you do that
You know
You pass by
Some policemen
You know
That they're going
To eventually
Catch up to you
So you kind of
Take it easy
For a while
And so I did that
And I noticed
As I was driving
I was in the right hand lane
And I was coming up
On this car
That was going
Excessively slow
Now I should also
Point out
That in North Carolina
There's
There are an abundance
Of really absurdly
Slow drivers
Now I have a theory
That many times
These people are just
Trying to refine
Their driving skills
For instance
As you're driving
Down a particular road
Someone is making
A left turn
And you're right
Behind them
You're going straight
And there's only one lane
So you can't pass
Around them
And they go about
Maybe three miles
An hour
As they're making
This left hand turn
And you know
The whole turn
Can take up to
45 seconds
But what I believe
They're trying to do
Is master the perfect turn
And you have some
Pretty good turners
Down there
Because they
Don't cross any
Of the lines
They're not supposed
To cross
And they
Apart from the slowness
They do a pretty good job
So the thing
That you have to
Really develop
In North Carolina
Is patience
You know
For these
Slower people
That always wind up
In front of you
So there was
One of these people
Right in front of me
On the highway
As I was
As I was coming up
On them
And so I started
To do what any
Normal person would do
I slowed down
You know
That's what you do
When someone is ahead of you
And going 40 miles an hour
In a 65 zone
I started slowing down
And I was thinking
You know
I should pass this person
Because this is not
The way I want to travel
But
I looked in my rear view mirror
And I saw this car
Coming up really really fast
In the lane right
To the left of me
So I said
Okay
I'm going to postpone
My decision to
Pass this person
Until after that person
Passes me
And so I continued
To slow down
Behind this other person
However
The nincompoop
That was coming up
Behind me
In the left lane
Decides to slow down
Right in my blind spot
Yeah
That means
If I hadn't
Turned around
To look in that blind spot
And tried to make
That left turn
I would have
Smacked right into this person
Kind of dumb
If you ask me
But the person
Stayed in my blind spot
And I'm trying to
Like deal with the situation
Because I have this
Slow person
In front of me
I have this guy
Hanging out in my blind spot
Apparently quite content
To remain there
To the left of me
And all I want to do
Is resume at normal speed
So
You know
I continue to slow down
To wait for somebody
To do something
So I can get around someone
And eventually
The person to the left of me
Backs off
A little bit
Allowing me enough space
To move ahead of him
Which is what I do
And the moment I do that
I realize that the person
That has been hiding
In my blind spot
Is a cop
Yeah
And he pulls me over
Pulls me over
Onto the side of the road
And I'm really baffled
What could this person
Be pulling me over for
I wasn't doing anything
I was
Trying to
Pass somebody
I certainly wasn't speeding
Because
Ever since I passed
That accident scene
I wasn't going
Fast at all
So what could this person
Possibly want
So he
He walks over
To the passenger side
Now usually
They walk over
To the driver's side
And I'm an expert on this
Because I've been pulled over
So many times
But this person
Walked over to the
To the
To the passenger side
And
You know
I kind of
Wave at him
Because the window's closed
And I'm trying to figure out
How to open it
Because it's one of these
Automated things
And I'm never quite sure
Which button opens
Which window
And so I
Managed to open it
And he
He asked me
To step outside
For a minute
And I say
Okay great
I'll do that
Get out
Go to the back
And he
He
He says
First of all
Do you have any weapons on you
Kind of a strange question
To ask
And I say
No I don't have any weapons on me
Then the guy proceeds
To search me
Yeah
Right there on the highway
He's going through my pockets
I mean
How do you deal with a situation like that
I've never been searched
On a highway before
I've had plenty of cops
Pull me over
But no one has ever
Has ever done that
I'm told that this is standard
Down there
And at the moment
I didn't know
What was standard
And what wasn't
I felt the best thing to do
Was just you know
Play along
And see where this thing went
Then after searching me
And going through my pockets
And all that kind of thing
He says
Okay you want to sit in my car
For a little while
It's like
Yeah sure
I've never sat in the police car before
That sounds like fun
So I sat in the
In the passenger side
And he explained to me
That the reason he pulled me over
Was because
I was going too slow
Behind this guy
In front of me
And I said to him
You know
The reason I was going
Behind this guy
Was you were in my blind spot
I mean
You know
I wasn't trying to be rude
Or anything like that
But it's a fact
I could not pass him
Because you were there
He didn't really have
An answer for that
He didn't really say
Anything
He didn't deny
That he was in my blind spot
I don't know
If he just expected me
To careen over
And hit him
So he could
Pull me over
For having an accident
With him
But he wrote me
A warning ticket
Now
As soon as I realized
It was a warning ticket
And not a real ticket
I stopped arguing
Because a warning ticket
Doesn't really mean anything
But I just found it
Kind of strange
That he would pull me over
And issue me a ticket
For something so bizarre
As going too slow
And apparently following too close
Even though I was
Not following close at all
And so
While this is going on
While he's there
He pulls my license
He reads it out
Over the radio
And within maybe
Five seconds
They have an answer for him
As to exactly
What it's registered to
And my whole history
It's incredible
And I get to hear
Some dispatcher
Somewhere in Carolina
Reading off all my
Personal information
Over the radio waves
While this is going on
This other police car
Pulls up right behind us
I'm just aware of this
You know
He's calling for backup
Apparently or something
I'm such a dangerous person
And as I'm sitting there
Talking to him
And he's really
Really friendly
You know
This is the thing
That probably pissed me off
More than anything
Was how friendly
This guy was
Talking about
Oh you're from New York
What's New York like
Do you take the train
You like the train
What do you think of Carolina
You know
All this nice
Southern hospitality
You know
It's the same kind of
Hospitality you get
From those guys
That guard the
Washington Monument
You know
The Marines
They're always very
Very polite
But you know
That if you make
The wrong move
They're going to
Kill you on the spot
Because that's
What they're hired to do
So you know
I'm trying not to be nervous
I'm just
You know
I have nothing to hide
So why should I be nervous
There's absolutely
Nothing wrong here
I don't have anything
On me
That could possibly
Get me in trouble
Yet I'm starting to feel
Like I'm a criminal
For some reason
Boy does this sound familiar
So this other cop
Comes up
And just opens
The back door
And just sits down
Behind me
You know
He just comes in
Without a word
Sits down behind me
In the same car
While I'm talking
To this person
And after
After some more
Social niceties
The first cop says
Okay
Do you have any
Weapons in your car
Do you have any
Illegal drugs in your car
Do you have any
Decapitated bodies
In your car
Do you have any
Blah blah blah
Whatever else
You know
He could think of
That I might not
Want to have in my car
At that moment
Do I have in my car
And I said
No
I don't have anything
Like that
And that's when
He asked the question
The question
I always thought
I'd be prepared
To answer
And for the most part
I always thought
I was prepared
To answer this
Do you mind
If I search
Now
You're sitting there
In the middle
Of North Carolina
On an interstate highway
By yourself
With several hundred
More miles of road
To go
In North Carolina
You have a guy
With a gun
Sitting behind you
That has not said a word
And you have another guy
With a gun
Sitting next to you
That's really really friendly
Almost manically so
And uh
He asks you
Do you mind
If I search
Well
I thought about it
For the split second
I had
And I realized
That I could say
I don't want you
To search my car
I have my rights
There's no reason
For you to search my car
I'm not under arrest
Et cetera
Et cetera
All those things
We read about
We read about all the time
I could say that
And then I could
Try and figure out
A way
To get through
The rest of the state
Without being pulled over
For doing
One mile an hour
Too high
For hitting a white line
When I wasn't supposed to
Or for doing
God knows what else
And then being labeled
As a troublemaker
And we all know how
The Deep South
Treats troublemakers
So I said to
To the guy
With deep embarrassment
And shame
No I don't mind
I've got nothing
To hide
Oh Ed Meats
Would have been
So proud of me
But I figured
I had nothing to hide
I really didn't have
Anything to hide
At this point
I was also kind of curious
What could they find
On me
There was nothing I had
You know
I had a couple of copies
Of 2600
I guess maybe the most
Objectionable thing
I had was
The police scanner
But it was
Kind of in pieces
So I don't think
They could have even
Figured out what it was
And it's not illegal
To have a police scanner
In the first place
But they probably
Would have asked
All kind of questions
About it
If they were able
To figure out
What it was
And then for the next
45 minutes or so
I had to sit
On a handrail
You know
Guardrail
Not a handrail
Guardrail
By the side of the highway
While the second cop
Stood next to me
His hand on his gun
Watching me
As if I was going
To do something
And I got to see
The other guy
Going through
The entire car
Bit by bit
Every bag I had
Every item of paper
He would look at
Went through the glove compartment
Went through the trunk
Even went through
The engine
The guy was meticulous
He went through
Every single inch
Of that car
God knows what
He was looking for
He tore the thing apart
And then finally
After about 45 minutes
Or so
When it was all over
He walked towards me
And without smiling
He said
Okay
Thank you
He was almost
As pissed off as I was
Because he wasn't able
To find anything
And it took quite a while
For me to
To recover from that
To realize that
That you know
I was going to
Survive this particular
Brush with the law
But you know
I waited
I sort of hung out
In these small towns
Waiting for darkness
To fall
Because I didn't want
Anybody to see me
I wanted to be able
To travel under
The cloak of darkness
So this wouldn't
Happen anymore
Here I was
A perfectly innocent person
Yet because of the way
That they
They were
They were treating me
They made me feel
Like a criminal
And it was a really
Frightening thing
Here I was
In practically
A foreign country
In Jesse Helms land
And I was
Being pursued by
Some
Some law enforcement entity
For some unknown reason
And then
When I got back
In the car
I realized
That these people
Had completely
Made a mess
Of the entire place
My clothes
Were all over the place
My bags
Were unzippered
I found
The battery
For my scanner
Underneath a chair
Underneath one of the seats
In the car
It was incredible
They hadn't even
Put it back
The way they found it
So this is clearly
Some kind of
Abuse of some sort
What really got me
The most upset
Was how nice
They were being
Throughout it
And every time
Every time
They were nice
Every time
They said something
Pleasant and conversational
They would take another step
They'd say
Okay well then
Do you mind
If we do this
Can we
Encroach on your rights
A little bit more
And being alone
Being kind of afraid
Being in a
Foreign country
As it were
And a hostile one
At that
You kind of
Let them do it
It's embarrassing
But you kind of
Let them do it
They asked who
I was staying with
When I was down there
I couldn't think of a lie
Fast enough
So I gave a real name
You know
It makes you feel
Like you really
Aren't prepared
To deal with this
Kind of thing
And if this can happen
To me
Down there
It can happen
To a lot of people
In all kinds of places
When you deal with
Law enforcement people
You have to be
Very very careful
Yeah we all watch
NYPD Blue
We see how they
They get the criminals
Each time
And we don't object
When they step over the line
And abuse people's rights
A little bit
Because hey
They're the criminals
They deserve to have
Their rights abused
But when you're not
A criminal
When you see this
Happen to innocent people
Based totally upon
Their skin color
Their age
The way
Their physical complexion
Or perhaps
Just where they're from
I mean
As soon as they found out
I was from New York
That definitely added
A few minutes
To the whole process
When you do it
For those reasons
It's clearly wrong
And it should not
Be tolerated
Now had I been
In New York
First of all
I don't think
This ever would
Have happened
In New York
I've been driving
For nearly 20 years
Every single day
In New York
And I've never
Had my car searched
Here it is
The second day
Of driving
In North Carolina
And my car
Is torn apart
Something's wrong
With that
And one thing
That kept me
Going throughout
Is knowing
I'd have the opportunity
To tell people
About the experience
Yeah well
I guess
Yeah it's
It's the North Carolina
State Police
I think maybe
I've offended somebody
But the thing is
What's important
Is that we all
Share these experiences
When they happen to us
And we don't let them
Happen unremarked
A lot of people
Get raided by
The Secret Service
A lot of people
Have run-ins
With the FBI
With local police
State police
All kinds of things
Like that
Without a voice
Without a way
Of telling this
To people
You're a lot weaker
You're a lot weaker
You know
You feel like
You're being oppressed
And you are being oppressed
And nobody cares
Nobody's listening
Because nobody can hear you
And what we
What we have here
At WBAI
Is a voice
And it's a voice
Not only for the people
Who do radio shows
Here
It's a voice
For people
On the phone
People who have radios
Anybody can get a hold of us
And tell them things
That have happened
Tell us things
That have happened
Tell all of New York
All of New Jersey
All of Connecticut
And that's so important
To be able to have that power
You know
Like I said
That's one of the things
That kept me going
Knowing that I'd be able
To tell people about this
I felt like everybody
Was there with me
In that regard
In that
You know
Whatever happened to me
Would be remembered
And that I would
Would have a way
Of letting people know
About it
I don't know
This is
It's a pretty crazy thing
You know
You kind of think
That things like that
Are always happening
But you don't expect
It to happen to you
I still don't know why
You know
It had to have been
Just the person
Took a look at me
And decided I didn't
Quite look right
For that particular region
And felt that
They must be able
To find something on me
It's also a reason
Why
You have to
Really really be careful
Imagine if I had
One thing on me
One ounce of pot
You know
One
I don't know
What they consider
To be illegal down there
But there are a lot of things
An open container
Of some sort
Any one of those things
I probably wouldn't be here
Right now
I'd probably be in jail
Some place
It's that easy
And just because
We're in New York
Doesn't mean it's not
That easy here as well
You have to be
Very very careful
With what you do
And
It's important
That
That we tell people
When things like this happen
When
When they
Grab people
For the wrong reasons
And this is nothing
This really is nothing
I mean
There are countless instances
Right here
In our own backyard
That
That far surpass
Anything that I had to go through
I was really quite fortunate
But
We need to be able
To tell people
We need to be able
To spread the word
So
Help us spread the word here
Help support this radio station
212-279-3400
Is our telephone number
Let's take a couple of phone calls
212-279-3400
7
Yeah those lines are lighting up
Really quickly
It's amazing
People just have their
Their fingers on the buttons
As far as that one goes
We need to light up the other ones
We're up to
1,300 bucks
Which is a lucky number
But
Not lucky enough yet
Let's try and hit
1,500
Before the night's over
We have 11 minutes left
I think we can do it
With your help
212-279-3400
For
100 bucks
You'll get a copy
Of the videotape
Which we played
Excerpts of before
Robert Steele
From the Central Intelligence Agency
Addressing
About 500 computer hackers
And you'll also get
A full year of
2600 Magazine
The Hacker Quarterly
Where you can hear
All kinds of
Strange incidents
That happen to hackers
As well as
Things that hackers do
You know
It was a couple of weeks ago
Somebody told me this
That they went into
A Barnes & Noble
In some part of the country
And they asked for
2600 Magazine
They were so afraid
Of hackers
In that particular
Part of the country
That they asked them
To leave the store
Based upon that
That's the kind of
Craziness we have
In this country
And we need to
Keep being vocal
About it
Every time
Someone threatens us
In the magazine
And we get threatened
Quite a bit
We let people know
About it
And we get a lot
More support
Because of that
Because people
Are aware
What's going on
Out there
And when someone
Tells us
That they've been abused
We let people
Know about that as well
And it does help
People were aware
Of the fiber optic story
Because we told them
Here on this radio station
I don't know
If a lot of you
Have seen all the
Media publicity
That surrounded
His return
Over the past
Couple of weeks
We had a party
For him last
Thursday
And gosh
There were things
In the New York Times
Time, Newsweek
Well how many people
Would have known
About this
You know
If we hadn't
Started the process
And that's where
People like you
And you
And you out there
Yes that's right
I'm pointing
As I say this
You all
Are part of this
And you help
Make us strong
By supporting us
In our time of need
And this my friends
Is our time of need
212-279-3400
Hey we're up to
1350
You see
You see how easy it is
We're a fourth
Of the way to 1500
It takes a couple
More phone calls
And we can do it
212-279-3400
Show your support
For this radio station
You know
We don't have commercials
We don't take
Advertising
We don't even take
Underwriting
You know
Underwriting is that
Thing that PBS
Invented
Where it's not
Really a commercial
But you kind of
Give the name
And address
Of the people
That are sending
You money
You know
Like this program
Is underwritten
By AT&T
This program
Is not underwritten
By AT&T
By the way
But that's what
We would say
If it was
Maybe we should
Charge him for that
But things like
You know
The McNeil-Layer Report
Or Masterpiece Theater
You keep
You know
Who underwrites
The McNeil-Layer Report
We all know
It's AT&T
Who underwrites
Masterpiece Theater
We all know
It's Mobile Oil
Right
Or is it Getty
No it's Mobile
But the reason
We know that
Is because
The product
Registers with us
You know
We recognize
The product name
We associate it
With the program
So we associate
You know
A certain oil company
With a certain
PBS program
That's not
What it's all about
That's not
What it's supposed
To be all about
It's not about
Products
It's about culture
It's about spreading
Information
McNeil-Layer Report
Is not about AT&T
It's about
You know
Hopefully providing
Some kind of
Some kind of
News report
That's fairly reliable
Unfortunately
By providing
Underwriting
In that regard
You sort of
Lose something
Here we don't
Have that
AT&T just offered
One million dollars
To keep off the hook
Off the air
Well
Can we call that
A matching fund
How about that
Everyone sends in
A million dollars
And we cancel
Them out
And we just
Sort of
Stay where we are
212-279-3400
So if you're
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Being broadcast
Themselves over the radio
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A few of them
Right now
Again while we're
Doing this
Please call us
212-279-3400
Good evening listener
Welcome to the airwaves
Hi
How are you doing
Good
What's on your mind
Well I was calling
About your episode
Of being pulled over
In North Carolina
Yes my latest episode
Of being pulled over
Yes I have
My older brother
Was actually pulled
Over there once
And he is an epileptic
Oh boy
He's an epileptic
He had gone down
For the weekend
Just to visit
And had taken
Some of his medication
With him
Out of the prescription
Bottle
And put it into
A small bag
And of course
He was pulled over
And searched
The same way you were
And when they found
The medication
They threw him
In jail for the weekend
Because
That's just
Without the medication
No doubt
Yes and they took
His medication
It took my mother
Calling a doctor
And getting a judge
Who actually could
And I don't think
That the judge
Didn't get in
Until Monday morning
So he spent like
Two nights in jail
Without his medication
For the
I mean for the whole weekend
See like I said
What happened to me
Is nothing
It just kind of
Opened my eyes
A little bit more
Than they were already open
And you should see my eyes
They're completely bugged out
It's just amazing
I mean what can go on
You know I mean that's
It was kind of absurd
That they pulled him over
But then when they found
His you know his medicine
Didn't listen to him
I mean he just got caught
In that situation
Do you know why
They pulled him over
In the first place
I don't know
I don't know
They didn't give him a ticket
Was it New York Plates maybe
No no no
He was from Virginia
So
That's funny
I had Virginia Plates too
Because that's where
I rented the car
Yeah well he was out of state
So I guess maybe
They just didn't like that
I really don't know
One state away
And they still
Yeah when they found out
I was from New York though
I think that's when
They really went hog wild
Yeah it might have been
I do know that they had
They had taken some beer
With them
And they
They had just taken it
From the refrigerator
So they didn't have
Like a full six pack
So I think they thought
That was suspicious
You know that
I mean there wasn't
Open bottles or anything
And they hadn't been drinking
And they were never
Accused of anything
But
It was not like a full six pack
And he
You know he wanted to know
Where the other bottles were
Or something
And he was like well
You know they were at home
How did he
How did he make it
Through all this
Well that was
I mean my brother
Is just a construction worker
From Virginia
So he didn't have
Any polar sources
Or certainly anybody
To talk to
And he wound up
Having to go back down there
Even to
Like answer to charges
And stuff
Which were immediately
Thrown out
I mean it was absurd
But it was a real ordeal
For him
How long ago
Did this happen
I think it was
About five years ago
Five or six years ago
So I mean
But to think that people
Have that kind of control
Over you
Is really pretty scary
It's weird
But that's
That's what we've
Kind of grown accustomed to
These armed individuals
Can just pull us over
Anytime
And make our lives hell
You know it's up to us
To make sure that
That they don't go over the line
I mean we're all pretty
Content with allowing cops
To go through traffic lights
And abuse laws
In all different ways
But when they start
Abusing people
That's when you have to
Really stand up
And say something
It happens all the time
But it always seems
To happen to people
That don't have a voice
Right
I mean why couldn't
They have listened
To the doctor sooner
Or why couldn't
The police
I mean that just seems
You know a little bit strange
And of course my mother
Was calling saying
Wait that's my son
You've got there
At least give him
His medication back
He needs it
You know and I know
He didn't get it
Until Monday morning
It was really
Well I'm sorry to hear this
But I'm not surprised at all
I'm not surprised
I thought I'd add to your story
Okay well thanks very much
For contributing that
And I'm glad you were able
To tell the story
Yep
Alright take care
Thanks goodnight
I have a feeling
There's a lot of stories
Like that out there
Just based in North Carolina
Alone
But there's probably
A lot based here as well
Let's fit in a couple
More phone calls
We have one caller
On the pledge line
212-279-3400
Please let's make that
A few more
We only have about
Three minutes left
Good evening
You're on the radio
Hi how are you
Okay how are you doing
Great
My name is John Painter
Calling from Granite Connecticut
I have a couple of questions
Just first
I wanted to know
For those without credit cards
Is there an address
To which we can send checks
For WAI
Well actually
The reason we ask people
To pledge first
Is that we have an idea
Of what we're going to be
What we're going to be getting
Our address is
WBAI 505 8th Avenue
New York
New York
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Okay
That's our main address
But we do ask
That you call up
The main number
212-279-3400
Tell us how much
You want to pledge
What we do then
Is we send out
A little reminder form
That tells you
Exactly what it is
You're going to be getting
And provides you
Even with an envelope
So you can send it
Right back to us
Alright
Thank you
And I have
Just one more question
For Emmanuel
Yes
Go ahead
Concerning privacy
And freedom of expression
On the internet
Relating that to
How amateur radio
Was regulated
By the FCC
And the strict laws
That prevent coding
And deliberate encryption
There
I was wondering
If in the future
Of communications
On the internet
And the backbones
That I guess
In some parts
Are owned
Or were started
Created by the government
If there's ever
Any regulation
In the future
Or if the possibility
For that exists
The possibility
For regulating
Encryption you mean?
No
The possibility
For regulating
The internet
The use of the network
The actual backbone
As the radio waves
Are regulated
And the amateur bands
By the FCC
Well
I don't see that
Realistically
But I do see that
In the heads
Of some people
I think it would be
A catastrophic thing
To do that
To actually regulate
Basically you'd be
Regulating words
And communication
You know
Data communication
It would be like
Regulating what you can say
Through the mail
You know
And how much mail
You can send
You know
U.S. mail
That is
It certainly
Could be done
Theoretically
On paper
It could be done
But it would be
A very big mistake
One I think
Which we'd never
Recover from
And I think
We've gone so far
Already
On this information
Superhighway
That we can't
Just turn around
And do it that way
But again
It really depends
On how awake
We all are
You know
How alert we are
To the threats
Okay?
Alright, thank you
Thanks for calling
Bye-bye
Bye
And if the
Information superhighway
Reflects the real highway
In any sense
There'll be
Carolina State Troopers
On that as well
So be careful
You know
It's difficult out there
Enough as it is
Without all kinds of
Fascism
Rearing its ugly head
And yes
It will happen
In various ways
We've just got to be
Aware and alert
And tell other people
When it happens
Okay, we have a
Flurry of phone calls
On the pledge line
212-279-3400
We're out of here though
And it looks like
We broke $1,500
Which is great
Alright
Thank you
Thank you people
Down in Talley
For staying there
And being patient
And dealing with
All the phone calls
That have been coming in
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I just feel
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In order to advise
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It really is
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Before that
You will get
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2600 Magazine
The Hacker Quarterly
All kinds of information
You will not get
Anywhere else
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From the
Hope Conference
Robert Steele's
Intro to the
Whole Conference
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Folio
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Know what's on
When
Believe me
All of us here
At the radio station
Need that
So that we can
Figure out when
We're on
And it's essential
For listeners as well
Because there are
Just so many
Different programs here
And we have
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News program
Coming up next
So stay tuned
For that
We will be back
Again next week
At our usual
Time slot of
10pm
Until then
This is Emmanuel
Goldstein
Have yourselves
A good night
Thanks to
Everybody who
Called
Again
212-279-3400
Is our phone
Number for those
Of you that
Have not yet
Called
We'll see you
Next week
The telephone
Keeps ringing
So I
So I
Ripped it off
The wall
I cut
Myself
While shaving
Now I
Can't
Make
A cough
We
Couldn't
Get
Much
Worse
But if
They could
They would
Rest
No
No
I hope that's understood.
Welcome to Pacifica National Programs, 100 Days of Congress, with your hosts, Julianne Malveaux and Larry Binsky.
Good morning. This is the Pacifica National News, 100 Days of Congress special. I'm Julianne Malveaux with co-host Larry Binsky.
Larry, lots of stuff happened on the Hill yesterday. I was up last night watching people take Newt to task for his book.
They're saying that, you know, in passing the contract and talking about responsibility and accountability, that he's cutting some corners.
And now the details, people are demanding the details of his meeting with Rupert Murdoch and the Fox people.
Yeah, this is a potential very dangerous area for Newt Gingrich, of course, when you talk like you want to be really pure,
and then you change your story four times about what happens. It seems, Julianne, people never learn in this town.
If you're going to do something wrong, and almost everybody in our lives does something wrong,
you don't say the wrong thing about it and then completely let the story advance itself.
No, I didn't have that meeting. Yes, I had it, but nobody said anything.
Yes, we said anything, but it wasn't what you think. Oh, we did say something about what you think, but we didn't mean it.
So it just keeps advancing on him, and it's surprising to me that the news media isn't really making more of this,
because if this had been anybody in the Democratic administration and the White House administration now,
I think they would have been savaged, and Gingrich is being given a little bit of a free ride here.
I don't know if you saw the Wall Street Journal yesterday.
They had a whole page about how the journal works and their accountability,
and one of the questions that they answered, you know, was a Q&A type thing,
was why they spent so much time on Whitewater.
And their reply was, what, what, Whitewater's news, and people have been trying to, you know, sweep it under the rug.
And as I read it, I was thinking, hmm, if Whitewater is news, what about a communications mogul,
whose ownership is in question, handing a member of Congress $4.5 million?
Now Gingrich says he hasn't signed that contract yet. That's the latest little wrinkle.
So maybe he isn't guilty of anything because he never signed the contract.
What the Democrats are asking for, Julianne, is an independent counsel to look into this,
and that seems like a reasonable request given the fact that independent counsels have looked into all sorts of stuff over the last few years.
That would cast an immediate clout over Gingrich's speakership, however, and we'll see if that happens.
Well, I think that, as you say, it's a minimal request and it really ought to happen.
Lots of people would probably accuse us of nitpicking by opening up talking about Newt Gingrich
and his personal financial foibles, but we don't think it's nitpicking.
But there were some other things going on on the Hill yesterday.
You were up there. You were at one of the hearings yesterday. What happened?
Well, it was about risk assessment, Julianne, and there hasn't been so much deep blue slurge
and flannel in a room since Nordstrom's had its last garage sale.
I mean, you are talking well-fed, well-paid lobbyists who want to get out from what they consider to be the regulatory burden of Congress.
Now, Congress has passed the regulations basically because the public needs them.
I mean, that's the rationale for them, whether you agree with the regulations or not.
But that's not the way the Constitution itself.
And we're going to listen now to a little of what went on at that hearing yesterday with that packed room of lobbyists.
And then joining us on the telephone will be Gary Bass, who's director of OMB Watch,
Office of Management and Budget here in Washington, and we're going to be asking for his comments.
First, the person who's the point legislator on this is Senator Frank Murkowski of Alaska.
He estimates that every American family pays as much as $6,000 a year because of regulatory costs.
And he says we've got to get out from under those regulatory costs, which he says are there merely to serve the bureaucracy.
The bureaucrats, by their very nature, are poor decision-makers.
Congress needs to force on the agencies a uniform, more thorough, more open risk assessment,
cost-benefit analysis.
Risks must be characterized and communicated accurately.
We have to depend on sound science.
And so often in our business, why the decisions are made primarily on emotion.
Well, one person's sound science is another person's partiality, of course, and there were just two witnesses at yesterday's basically dog-and-pony show.
One was the leader of an institute at Harvard which studies regulation, and afterward I asked him where his funding came from.
He said, among other things, it comes from 30 major corporations in America, including some of the largest polluters.
But the more interesting witness was a man named John Stossel, who was a correspondent for ABC News, especially for 2020.
Now, it's quite surprising, I suppose nothing should be surprising in today's Washington,
that somebody like an ABC News correspondent should get up and give basically a speech in favor of a political point of view.
Thank you.
Thank you.