Fred Hershkowitz, c'est moi, host of Home Fries, 8 p.m. Friday night.
Live radio, comedy, call-ins, and music on WBI in New York City, 99.5 FM.
I can't understand the feeling I get when you blow your three eyes that way.
And if you're wondering where you are and what time it is, it's 10 o'clock.
You're listening to WBAI New York, and that means it's time for Off the Hook.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
It could be yet much worse, but if they could, they would.
Bon Diggly Bon for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood, Bon Diggly Bon!
Bon Diggly Bon.
Thank you.
And good evening, everybody. This is Off the Hook, Emanuel Goldstein with you tonight until 11 o'clock,
where we'll be updating you on the various happenings of cyberspace and the good news, the bad news, and all kinds of other things.
We'll also be taking some phone calls, and we may be hearing from a couple of people out there on the field.
We might be hearing from Brock Meeks tonight over on Capitol Hill, where some really not-so-nice stuff is going on.
You know, they have these amendments, these bills, these Senate debates and hearings about how they want to regulate speech,
how they want to keep us from discussing dangerous ideas.
And we'll get into that in just a little bit.
We also might be hearing from Bernie S. over in Federal Prison.
We have a Kevin Mitnick update and various other things.
So stay with us. It should be a fun hour to come here on Off the Hook.
We'll see you next week.
All right, let's start with the, I guess it's the bad news.
Well, it is bad, because when you're indicted, it's always a bad thing.
But in a way, you know, I have this feeling that Bernie S. was indicted this past week
because the government needed to do something quickly.
And when I read you this indictment, maybe you'll agree that they're moving rather hastily and not really thinking about what they're doing.
We talked with Bernie S. last week.
He mentioned how he was going to get his lawyer to invoke the Right to a Speedy Trial Act
and charge him with something because they were holding him for so long without charging him with anything.
And that's just what happened.
And as of June 8th, a three-count indictment was handed down.
And I'll just read it to you because it's very short.
With the grand jury charges that honor about March 13th, 1995, in Haverford Township, the Eastern District of Pennsylvania,
defendant Edward Cummings, knowingly and with intent to defraud,
did possess and have custody and control of a telecommunications instrument.
That is, a speed dialer.
Yes, a speed dialer that had been modified and altered to obtain unauthorized use of telecommunication services
through the use of public telephones.
In violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 1029A5.
This is the first time anything like this has ever happened where they've actually taken a modified Radio Shack dialer
and used that to put somebody in prison.
So, because apparently two of these were found in Bernie S.'s possession,
that's two counts in this three-count indictment right there.
Imagine that.
Anybody that has the ability to transmit that one tone five times can be charged just like Bernie S. has been.
And the third charge, those are the first two charges,
The third charge, on or about March 15, 1995, at Villanova in the Eastern District of Pennsylvania,
defendant Edward Cummings, knowingly and with intent to defraud,
did possess and have custody and control of hardware and software,
that is, an IBM ThinkPad laptop computer and computer disks,
used for altering and modifying telecommunication instruments
to obtain unauthorized access to telecommunications service.
That's right, a ThinkPad.
That's the hardware and software that can be used for all kinds of things,
but if you can use it for anything bad at all,
that's what you're going to be charged with.
Three-count indictment, Bernie S. still in prison.
Hopefully we'll hear from him a little bit later on,
but this is a serious thing.
This is something that you've got to be really concerned and worried about.
Because if they're successful using this,
they can get anybody for virtually anything.
You know, anyone that has a device capable of doing various things,
emitting certain tones, running certain programs.
I mean, most computers would be considered,
I guess, illegal access devices,
because they have within them programs and capabilities
of doing things that could be construed as evil.
And these laws can be used as harassment techniques.
You know, you can just get the people that you want to get
because they've got something that might be used in a bad way,
and ignore all the other people that have the same exact thing
because, well, you don't want to get them.
So, it's getting to the point where the law is just something
that people are using to their advantage,
and it's being used against a lot of innocent people.
So, that's the latest as far as Bernie S.
Again, let's give out his address if you want to write to him in prison.
It's Ed Cummings, C-U-M-M-I-N-G-S,
prisoner number 48919-066.
And that's Fairton, F-A-I-R-T-O-N-F-C-I,
Federal Correctional Institute, A-Left, Post Office Box 420.
And that's in Fairton, New Jersey, 08320.
And, again, he appreciates getting anything, anything at all,
that will help him to think inside prison.
It's really a very useful thing.
Now, we also have an address for Kevin Mitnick,
who goes on trial July 10th in North Carolina.
And he's going to be charged with all kinds of things.
Remember, he's the dark side hacker.
He's somebody that they want to put away forever.
And they may very well get to do this.
Of course, having known Kevin for quite some time,
all of this really is being blown way out of proportion, in my opinion.
And it all stems from a single incident that we recently found out about
where he was working for a company that supposedly,
the company had supposedly been suspected of accessing voice mailboxes
belonging to Pacific Bell.
And that's really all the information we have on that.
Because of his affiliation with that company,
he was in danger of being in violation of his probation
and went on the run and was on the run for a couple of years
and became America's biggest computer fugitive.
It just kept getting worse and worse.
Anyway, you can write to him,
Kevin Mitnick, M-I-T-N-I-C-K.
No prisoner number.
That's kind of surprising, but that's how it is over here.
516 Breckenridge.
That's B-R-E-C-K-E-N-R-I-D-G-E.
And the town is Henderson, North Carolina.
2-7-5-3-6.
And again, same applies.
Anything, any reading material.
If you're a publisher, if you work for a publisher,
then you can send hardcover books.
If you do not work for a publisher, you can send paperback,
usually about two or three of the Macs that are allowed.
Or letters, or clippings, or anything of interest.
And it's really all you can send.
You can't send boxes of cookies or anything like that.
You're pretty much limited to printed words.
Can't send money unless it's in the form of a postal money order.
You can't send stamps, things like that, so you've got to be careful.
Okay, now as far as all these crazy laws going on,
I have not heard the latest as far as the Exxon Amendment,
so I'm going to need some help from our listeners on that.
But some evil things are happening.
I'm going to read you excerpts from the Brock Meek story,
which came out last Thursday.
And hopefully we'll hear from him later on.
If not, we'll just have to play it by ear.
On June 7th, he calls it the beginning of the end.
On June 7th, the Senate passed its anti-terrorism bill
by a stunning vote of 91 to 8.
I'd say that's got a good chance of passing, period.
And we can override any veto that Clinton would muster,
but I don't think Clinton's in the position of even vetoing this.
The bill contains a broadening of the wiretap entitlements for law enforcement,
the so-called roving wiretaps.
This allows any law enforcement agency, including your local sheriff,
to institute a wiretap of an entire area in order to catch the mobile bad guys.
As nefarious as that provision of the bill is,
it harbors a much darker side, the Feinstein Amendment,
that flies in the face of the First Amendment
and places a legal prohibition on the distribution of information
relating to explosive materials for a criminal purpose on the Internet
or local bulletin board systems or through mail order, for that matter.
Let's see if we have Bernie S. on the line.
Good evening.
This is Locktel.
You have a collect call from Bernie S.
To accept the call, please dial 9 now.
If you do not want to accept this call, hang up now.
Please go ahead. You are now connected.
Bernie S.
Hello, Emmanuel.
How are you?
I'm in good spirits, and I have to thank collectively a lot of your listeners
for sending me cards and letters,
because that's what's keeping me in good spirits here in federal prison.
That's good to hear.
Now, we just read over your indictment.
You got a copy of it up there, huh?
Yes, we do, and it's...
...on the air, but since you already have it there, you probably already have read it.
We have read it on the air, and I find it pretty amazing that they brought back the red box charges.
Well, they have.
They're not accusing me of using any of these things.
They're just saying that I had what they call a speed dialer.
And that's it.
What they have to prove to make that a crime is intent.
And what they're going to try to say, evidently, is that the mere possession implies consent.
That's unbelievable.
It implies intent.
Well, unfortunately, intent is such a vague thing that nobody understands what it is,
and it's easier for the government to get convictions on it from people I've talked to in here.
Since it's such a vague, undefined thing, it's hard to prove that you're not guilty of it.
But we'll see what we can do.
Well, I mean, I believe the way it works, you're innocent until proven guilty.
And it sounds to me like it's the other way around here.
You have to prove that you're not guilty of intent.
This is a very Alice in Wonderland system I'm in right now.
And innocent until proven guilty is not really what it's about.
Well, I was speculating about this, that they brought back these charges
because you invoked the speedy trial thing, right, last week?
Well, I asserted my desire for that, and they quickly put together this indictment.
And that's exactly what I mean.
They quickly put together this indictment.
Now, I think they...
Like it was quickly put together.
Yeah, it looks that way.
I don't see how these red box charges can stand
because I know of nobody that has ever been put in prison
because they possessed a device that could emit a single beep five times.
You know, it's absurd when you think about it.
If anyone of your listeners has heard of any conviction or non-conviction,
anyone who's been charged with the mere possession of a modified touch-tone dialer,
please have them get in touch with you, and then you can get in touch with me
because I need to find out any case law that exists on this sort of thing.
Okay.
And there's several ways you can get a hold of us here.
You can either mail us WBAI, which is off the hook,
care of WBAI, 505 8th Avenue, New York, New York, 10018,
or you can email me, emmanuel at 2600.com,
or you can write to us at 2600, P.O. Box 752, Middle Island, New York, 11953,
or you can call us at 516-751-2600.
All kinds of things you can do.
You still there?
I'm here. I'm sorry. It was interrupted.
Okay.
Is it one of the headcounts or something?
Oh, no.
Somebody else wanted to get on the phone, but it's my allotted phone time.
Yeah, well, let's push them away.
They'll have to wait for a turn.
Time to start standing up for your rights there, you know?
That's right.
Oh, it's a little vague here, but anyway.
So you read the entire indictment on the air already?
Well, yeah, there wasn't much to read.
It's pretty short.
Was there any other paperwork that went along with it?
You got all three counts?
All three counts.
Well, two of the counts are identical.
Right, two of the counts are identical,
and the third one was possessing the laptop computer with software.
Now, that was interesting.
It made it sound like possessing an IBM ThinkPad was a crime.
Yes.
Knowingly and with intention for it did possess
that have custody and control of hardware and software.
That is, an IBM ThinkPad, laptop computer, and computer disks,
used for altering and modifying telecommunications instruments
to obtain unauthorized access to telecommunications service
in violation of Title 18, U.S. Code Section 1029A6B.
So just having a software and a laptop computer,
even though there was no cable even that would allow one to connect to a phone,
they're saying that's what's necessary.
Well, now, the hardware, okay, how can they say the hardware is a crime?
It's a ThinkPad.
I mean, is every ThinkPad therefore subject to somebody being indicted for possessing?
Well, that would be the hardware that would be necessary to accomplish this,
although I would think someone would need the cable to connect this laptop to a phone
in order to change the contents of the phone's memory chips.
But they're not alleging that I had such a cable,
just a laptop computer and the software itself.
So, I mean, it's really the software that...
That's what's getting them excited.
Yeah, that's what's getting them excited, right.
...distributed freely at the Hope Conference last year.
Is that still available?
I know some of the stuff that was on the HopeNet
was being made available on the Internet for some time after the conference.
You mean some of the hardware?
No, no, stuff that was files and so forth that were on HopeNet last year
where I understand were available on the Internet sometime after the Hope Conference was over.
I don't think they're still around.
Okay.
I don't know.
I'd have to check into that.
I don't think they are, though.
Okay.
Well, I'll see if I can get someone to make that software available on the Internet
so anyone that wants to look at what this felonious software looks like,
they can download a copy for themselves.
Okay.
So, has anything else happened in the last week?
Anything...
My attorney will be visiting me tomorrow
and going over the indictment and our defense strategy.
Hopefully, he's going to try to motion that this evidence not be even admitted
because it in and of itself is not a proof of wrongdoing.
But there's all these legal hurdles you have to go through to get to the end of the rainbow.
Uh-huh.
Just to recap the history, these charges, specifically the red box ones, the modified speed dialer,
originally those were state charges?
That's right.
They were originally caused the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania charges, which...
Sounds like some negotiations are going on for the phone there.
I'm sorry.
Excuse me.
Are things getting rough over there?
Okay, sounds like an argument is breaking out at the prison.
Got the phone.
Uh, Bernie, we don't want you to get hurt or anything like that.
There's definitely, uh, something going on.
Who's there?
Who's there?
Bernie, are you there?
Yeah, Bernie.
What?
What are you fucked up, man?
Okay, well, there seems to be a discussion going on right now as far as the, uh, continued use of the phone.
I don't know.
Yeah, I'm getting, uh...
Okay.
I'm getting a little interruption.
Yeah, I can see that.
Now, uh, I don't want you to put yourself in any danger or anything like that.
Um, do you think maybe you want to call us back a little later?
Well, we'll see how long this lasts.
Well, seriously, I don't want you to, uh, to provoke an incident on our behalf.
I'm not provoking an incident.
Okay.
Because, you know, this is prison here.
You know, people, uh, act differently inside, inside the wall there.
That's unfortunate, but it's the way it is.
Okay.
Don't want any retribution or anything like that.
You sure it's okay?
We're suddenly disconnected.
It's, uh, it's not my doing.
Okay.
All right.
Tell them I'll send them some smokes or something if, uh...
Oh, by the way, one of the listeners sent me a book of stamps, which I appreciate very much.
However, the prison seized them.
Yeah, stamps are one thing you cannot send.
There was a list of prohibited items that was, uh, passed on to me along with the notice that the stamps received.
And, uh, it included, uh, uh, Polaroid photographs, which evidently are used by some people to, uh, uh, uh, uh, the chemicals in a Polaroid photograph can be taken out and used as a hallucinogenic drug, evidently.
So they don't allow Polaroid photographs in here.
They don't allow, uh, human hair.
You don't say.
This was one of the things on the list.
Human hair was prohibited.
Uh, musical greeting cards.
And I guess that would include these Hallmark recordable greeting cards.
That's true.
Uh, plant shavings were listed on there.
I'm not even sure what they're referring to there.
Uh, stamps, currency, and some other odd items.
Just to give you an idea of the absurdity of your charges, you know, you could have had two Hallmark greeting cards that did the same thing as that tone dialer.
That's right.
And that's an indictment each for each greeting card you would have had.
And just think of all the indictments that, that lie just in wait, waiting at every Hallmark greeting card store.
Well, if this goes through, if they're actually successful with this, there's no telling what they're going to try next.
I mean, anything is, is, is prosecutable at that point.
Pretty unbelievable.
It turns out that more and more crimes are being, more and more state and local crimes are being, uh, adopted by the federal government as federal crimes.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, the trend seems to be that in a short while every crime will, uh, be eligible to be a federal crime.
And, uh, that means that, as, as I was saying before, you were charged first on a state level with this thing, they then dropped it, and then the feds picked it up.
Right.
So it sounds almost like double jeopardy to me, but I guess it's, it's all within the...
It would be double jeopardy if they were both trying to charge me at the same time with those charges, but they, they, they aren't doing that.
The reason the state dropped it is so the feds could pick it up.
That's interesting.
Now, there's also a new, a new, uh, uh, piece of law that's, uh, making the rounds that's, uh, getting a lot of people, uh, excited is that, uh, this double jeopardy issue has, has raised its head where the police have seized property and then charged the people with having that property.
So that, uh, people who's, uh, who are charged with having a gun and then, and then, uh, the gun is taken away from them, that's, uh, double jeopardy.
So the government either has to give the gun back to them, uh, and charge them or take the gun away from them and charge, you know, and just leave it at that.
So unless they give this stuff back to me, uh, they might not be able to charge me with the possession of it.
Kind of strange, but, uh, it was a Ninth, a Ninth Circuit decision that went down about a month ago.
Really?
Well, I don't think you really want the demon dollar, or not demon dollar, the, uh, tone dollar back.
I want this hassle to be over with.
Yeah.
I mean, it's so easy to get in the first place.
It's, it's, it's, it's kind of, kind of silly.
Well, is there any other, uh, any other message you want to convey to, uh, people?
Let you folks know next week when, uh, uh, you know, after I hear what's going on, uh, with my attorney, my arraignment on these new charges, it is next Thursday morning in Philadelphia.
A week from tomorrow?
Yes.
Okay.
There's a, a very good chance we'll be on tape next week, and, and possibly the week after that as well.
But, uh, we will be getting the word out, um.
Drop you a letter?
Yeah.
As, as soon as we can, we'll be getting the word out.
Okay.
Again, uh, uh, a big thank you to all your listeners who have sent me, uh, uh, cards and letters.
It's, uh, it's, uh, it's helped out a lot with my morale.
Okay.
That's, that's, that's good to know.
Please, uh, we'll give out the address, uh, in just a couple of minutes, but keep those, uh, cards and letters coming in.
Uh, they make a world difference.
They helped Fiber Optic out, uh, last year, uh, when he was in.
Um, so hopefully you won't be in for too much longer.
Let me ask you one other question.
You're in, uh, in prison now with other people.
Are these people that have already been convicted, or are they waiting to be tried like you?
In here with his, his, uh, yet to be, uh, uh, sentenced.
Some have been tried, but not sentenced.
But, uh, everyone in the building I'm in is wearing an orange jumpsuit.
Uh-huh.
Uh, and the other three housing units, people are wearing khakis.
So, uh, they, they're referred to here as, uh, everyone in my unit is referred to as a carrot,
because we look like carrots walking around in these orange jumpsuits.
Uh-huh.
Now, all these people I'm in here with are, uh, haven't been convicted yet of the crimes
they're being charged with at this moment.
They have previous convictions, many of them are.
Uh-huh.
Uh.
How do they, how do they separate them from the people that have been convicted?
Uh, they were in separate buildings.
I see.
Separate buildings in the same complex.
There's three housing, there's three housing units for people who have convicted,
been convicted and sentenced.
And there's one housing unit, the one I'm in, where the people haven't been, uh, been sentenced yet.
But now, are these people that have no bail or can't afford bail or what?
Yeah, that's right.
They're, uh, they're not given bail.
If they were given bail, they wouldn't be in this housing unit.
They'd be out on the street.
But are most of them, uh, uh, haven't been given bail at all or they can't afford it?
Uh, most of them haven't been, even, have probably haven't been given it because they're, uh,
they're parole violators or, uh, they've been charged with some heinous violent crime.
Yeah.
It's, it's incredible that you are actually considered somebody that, uh, should not have bail,
uh, based on, on you having, uh, two-tone dollars in your possession.
Dangerous.
They're saying I'm at a risk of flight.
Uh, a, uh, an informant told them that I called him from jail and told him I was going to run away
if I got out on bail.
Right.
That never happened.
Well, there's, there's no phone record of that, right?
That's right.
But, uh, it takes a long time to get these records subpoenaed.
Uh-huh.
Uh, just, uh, clear one thing up for us.
Uh, there's two counts of possession of a tone dollar.
Now, I know that they found one on your person, but where, where did they allege they found
the other one?
The other one was in a friend's house who, who I was visiting at the time I was arrested.
And it was in a friend's house and was it in your possession?
It was not in my possession.
It was, uh, it was in a jacket at that house.
I see.
Actually, I said it was in a wallet, but there's no way it could have possibly fit inside of
a wallet, so.
Not any wallet I'm familiar with, no.
Well, I've ever had.
Uh-huh.
Okay, that sounded like a click.
My one-minute warning.
That's one-minute warning.
So I'll let you guys go.
Oh, well, stay on until the, uh, until you click off, finally.
You know, might as well make every moment count.
Unless you're in imminent danger of some kind of...
We'll find out.
If there's a scream and there's a click and...
How are things overall, day-to-day basis?
Are they treating you okay, fellow prisoners, all that?
Um, I get along with most of the people here.
Just, to some people, there's a lot of competition for the phones here.
Yeah.
But, uh, that's the only situation I run into.
I don't suppose they'd let you have a cell phone in there, would they?
No, I asked, but they turned me down.
You did ask.
Oh, boy.
How was that request met?
Um, it wasn't an...
It was not an official request.
Ah, okay.
But, uh, they just sort of smiled and said, no, we don't allow that here.
They did smile, huh?
Yeah.
That's, that's good.
I didn't know they did that in there.
They have, uh, a sense of humor, but it's not a very good one.
Uh-huh.
Well, I think everyone's sense of humor will be enriched upon seeing how this, uh, this turns out.
I sure hope so, Emmanuel.
Okay, listen, we'll be hearing from you again, hopefully in the weeks to come.
And hopefully we'll be hearing from you live sometime when they let you out of that place.
And he's gone now.
Ooh, well, that's, uh, that really sucks.
That's, uh, the way it works.
Um.
And we'll be hearing from him again, hopefully in the future.
You can write to him.
Ed Cummings, C-U-M-M-I-N-G-S, 48919-066, FCI Fairton, A-Left, P.O. Box 420, Fairton, New Jersey, 08320.
And again, just, um, send whatever you can, you know, as far as, uh, printed material.
Okay, um, let's quickly get back to what we were talking about as far as the, um, the, uh, anti-terrorism bill, which passed the Senate on June 7th by a vote of 91 to 8.
With the roving wiretap provision.
Yeah.
As nefarious as that, uh, provision of the bill is, it harbors a much darker side.
The Feinstein Amendment, which we were mentioning, makes it, uh, supposedly illegal.
I'd like to know more about this, because I was reading the papers combing for any reference to this, and I was unable to find any.
So, again, I, I appeal to the listeners to, um, to help us out here, if you know any more about this.
We're hoping to talk to Brock Meeks, but I think he's probably tied up in Capitol Hill, because this is coming to a head.
Um, supposedly this would make it illegal to talk about or distribute information relating to explosive materials for a criminal purpose on the internet or local BBSs or through mail order.
So, uh, that's something that I'd like to know more about.
Um, it'll put you in jail for 20 years and make you pay up to a quarter of a million dollars if, by any means, you place information on bomb making in an electronic format.
What, uh, Senator Dianne Feinstein, who is a Democrat, by the way, what her amendment does is open a chilling precedent for regulating content on the internet.
That it is the break in the dike, the trickle that could become a river of regulatory hammers, meant to turn the rough-and-tumble, open, and free-flowing online discourse into something a whole lot, uh, more restrictive and, and frightening.
Cyberspace equal of the domino effect.
Anyway, uh, we'll be, uh, taking some phone calls.
212-279-3400.
If you have any, uh, input on this or anything else that you may have heard or wish to share with us, give us a call.
212-279-3400.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Go ahead.
Yes, you're on the air.
Hi, Emmanuel.
How you doing?
Um, there's a system, uh, here in Bell Atlantic land.
It's, uh, the Dial 54 system.
Dial 54 system?
Dial 54.
It's, um, going to allow people to call up, and for 50 cents, they'll be able to find the address of three people, given only their phone numbers.
Okay, we had heard about this.
Yeah, I've heard about this.
Uh, there were a lot of people, um, in my local newspaper that were, uh, a little upset about this.
They had a little survey on it.
Um, and a lot of people don't realize this has been available in CD-ROM, but, uh, it opens the door for a lot of, uh, weird people to be able to get your addresses now.
Absolutely.
Now, how exactly is the system going to work?
Uh, I believe it's one of the star codes.
I think it's star 54.
Okay.
You call up, you get the, uh, charge, and you just dial in the numbers.
Uh, I don't know how they're read back, either by an operator or electronically.
I'd figure by an operator.
And it's, uh, you can get three of them.
Right, three per call for 50 cents.
I mean, that's cheaper than information.
Right, and it's probably cheaper if you use it on a limited basis than a CD-ROM.
Probably true, depending on how much a CD-ROM costs, but they're going down in price, too.
Uh, but this is making it available to a lot more people, you know, a lot, uh, a lot easier.
You don't have to even have a computer to be able to do this.
Right.
And mostly, uh, I'd be afraid of telemarketers being able to just find my number, or you call
an 800 number, and they just go right back and, uh, find out what your address is.
Unless it's unlisted.
Just, uh, well, yeah, and you can also request to have your number removed, but that's only if
you know about it.
Right, well, I think we need to spread this around.
You know, I have a feeling that, uh, as, as services, and I put that in quotes, as services
like this spread, our phone books are going to get increasingly thin, because a lot of
people are going to say, no, I don't want to be part of that, and please take my number
out of the phone book and make me unlisted.
I think when the phone companies see all these people dropping out of, uh, of the listing
business, uh, they, they, they might realize that, uh, people do value their privacy.
Mm-hmm.
Well, thanks a lot.
Okay, when does this start, by the way, or has it already started?
I believe it starts sometime in, uh, July.
Uh, maybe midway through July.
Okay, well, keep us updated.
What's that?
Keep us updated.
I certainly will.
Okay, thanks.
A lot of us, uh, don't have access to phones in New Jersey or Bell Atlantic Territory,
so, uh, we need to share this information, because no doubt it will come to New York at
some point as well.
Good evening, you're on Off the Hook.
Hi, I wanted to ask a question, please.
Go ahead.
Yes, go ahead.
Um, hi, uh, the question I wanted to ask was about, um, well, every time I call AT&T,
they end up having my phone number, and I completely want that off.
I mean, I think it's like, um, so, um, I have no privacy.
Well, explain exactly what you mean.
Okay, um, on their computer system, when you call, they have your name and your address
and, um, everything, and, um, I may just want to ask a question, but then, um, they may
have my, um, my name and address, and I, I don't want that on, um, their systems.
Anyway, I can avoid that.
It's like a caller ID, in a sense.
Well.
There's a more professional name for it.
I don't know what it's called.
I something, something.
Well, the thing is, when you have AT, when you call AT&T, even if they don't have that
information right in front of them, they're going to ask you, what phone number are you
calling about?
Uh-huh.
And then when you give them that phone number, they'll have that information in front of
them if you have an AT&T account.
Okay.
Well, well, well, if I just call from a pay phone, they, they, uh, they, uh, may still
have the information, like, what number am I calling from?
And, and, uh, I may not want them to know.
They knew I can avoid that.
Well, if you go through an operator, right now it works if you go through an operator
and ask them to connect you to, uh, to an 800 number.
First of all, they'll say they can't do that.
But if you say that, uh, you have operator privileges or that you're handicapped or something
like that, they will put it through.
Supposedly, that won't pass along the information and they won't have your number when you get
there.
However, we're hearing increasing reports where that's no longer true.
And eventually we know it's not going to be true.
We're going through an operator.
We'll, we'll block that information.
Uh, the thing that I find works the best is just confusing them.
Um, you call from, say, a fax line and you're calling about another number.
So when they say, uh, are you at this address?
You say, no, I'm not.
That's not my name.
That's not my number.
That's not my address.
Now, let's start from scratch and, uh, listen to what I have to say, you know?
And, and, and, and then they, they just sort of like throw aside the, um, the computer data
that they're getting and just listen to whatever data you give them.
And that's really the way it should be.
One more question before I go.
Uh-huh.
MCI has sort of like a blockage on international phone calls.
If, if, if, if I, um, if, if, if I, um, call from, for instance, midtown Manhattan and
and I want to call our relatives, um, overseas and they may have a block in that area.
Is there any way I can get beyond that, like beyond that restriction area?
Are you talking about using an MCI calling card?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've been, I've been reading some articles about that too, where, uh, they, they block
calls to certain countries that are troublemakers or that they consider to be troublemakers.
Uh-huh.
Uh, where a lot of fraudulent calls have wound up going.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
So, with, with calling cards, there's really not a whole lot you can do except say that
you're not going to use their service.
Uh, with, with OnePlus from your home, they, they have to supply service, obviously.
They can't deny you service to a country because they don't like it.
But the best thing I would say to do in that particular situation is just complain and say,
listen, you know, I, I need to make legitimate phone calls to this country.
Right, right.
And you're denying me access to it.
Uh, do I have to switch to that three-letter word that we all hate?
Right, right, right.
You know, put it, put it in their court.
You know, they, they, they have to do something.
They have to respond to you.
Okay.
That's my, that's my answer, my question then.
No problem.
Take care.
Take care.
Good evening, you're on off the hook.
Hey, how you doing?
Okay, how are you?
By surprise.
Hey, listen, I really, really have to push for this.
I know you've talked about it before, but I don't see why you can't just, uh, pick,
pick up when the phone rings and put us on hold because it's ludicrous.
Well, there's no hold button, okay?
That's, that's the main reason right now.
This board does not have a hold button.
If I could put a hold button in, I would, but I don't.
It's too bad.
It's like, uh, give and take and touch and go as far as getting through.
All right.
In any case, uh, that's, uh, neither here nor there.
Um, the question I had was, you know, I keep seeing reference to, uh, in 2600 about, um,
uh, the historic 92 meeting.
What was in the 92 meeting?
What, what happened?
What transpired?
That's, that's the November, 1992, Washington, D.C. 2600 meeting, which was, uh, rated by mall
security at the Pentagon City Mall.
Uh, it later turned out to be, uh, thanks to the investigative, uh, prowess of, of Brock
Meeks, who, uh, still may join us tonight.
Uh, he found out that the mall security people had been, uh, working in conjunction with the
U.S. Secret Service.
Uh, what they did was illegal, uh, detaining people, searching through their bags, demanding
ID, ripping film out of cameras.
And this is something that mall security did.
The Secret Service did not do it, but the Secret Service told the mall security people
to do it.
So it's as if the Secret Service actually did it themselves.
They just had these people kind of cover up for them.
Uh, what it revealed was the degree to which the Secret Service would, would, would go to
find that information about hackers and, uh, people they, they were investigating or were
suspicious of.
And it really served as a, a very inspirational launching point for a lot of other hacker meetings.
And people always look towards that 1992 meeting as, um, as proof of, of, of, you know,
what the, uh, agenda of certain agencies really is.
I can imagine.
Okay, well, thanks for educating me.
The, uh, other quick thing was, how did, uh, you guys ever get your book into, uh, Barnes
and Noble?
Uh, 2600, you mean?
Well, you know.
Because it's at every Barnes and Noble superstore, known to mankind.
Yeah, we have to, we have to thank our distributors for that.
Um, our biggest distributor is Fine Print in Austin, Texas.
And they're just very good at getting, getting magazines into not only alternative stores, but
a lot of big mainstream stores.
And also, I have to give some credit to, to people in the country that are, are exhibiting
more of a, uh, a taste, uh, for alternative reading material.
You have more places like, like Borders, like Barnes and Noble superstores that have alternate
zines, you know?
And, and as a result, you have more of these zines because there's more people out there
reading them.
You have your fact sheet fives and your boing boings and all kinds of neat things out there.
And even, even crazier zines than that, lots of crazy zines.
It's very, it's very good.
And you have your, your tower books and, and all kinds of, of places to hang out.
And then, you know, these, these things that aren't even chains that are in big cities.
So.
It is super, and you know, but I think the competition is driving it too.
So it's actually all for the good.
Yeah, it is.
And, and reading is always something that, uh, is, is inspirational.
However, from, from reading about these, um, these new proposed laws and seeing how people
are being charged with crimes, I don't think the government agrees that reading is good.
I think the government is rather afraid of reading material.
The, um, the other thing is, have you connected anything to ISDN, to your ISDN yet?
I'm embarrassed to say that I have not yet.
I've been busy, but, uh, the ISDN line is still sitting there staring me at the face,
uh, every day.
Uh, Fiver's not here today, so we don't know if, uh, if, if he's had any success.
But, um, yeah, I, it's, I don't know.
I guess maybe we're just not ready for it yet, but, uh, I do intend on getting one of
those, uh, motor roller things and, and plugging it in and seeing what happens.
Let's you go to quick things.
You know, um, the, uh, there are some hallmark stores out there that, uh, apparently if, uh,
you have, uh, uh, if you have a suspicious looking package, they won't sell you the, uh, the
voice musical things.
Yeah, there's no end to what ignorant people will do.
That's pretty, I didn't know it was illegal, but I guess it is.
To, to associate yourself with, with outfits like, uh, you know, electronic stores and then
walk into a hallmark card, you're automatically branded, uh, presumptuously.
That's right.
Buying a greeting card can get you in trouble.
It's pretty weird.
I, but, you know, I think the best thing to do is to just, uh, rant and rave so they,
they let you do what you want to do.
Because I think the last thing they want to do is, uh, attract attention.
Yeah, write a big nasty letter to Hallmark and, and point out that particular store and
how they physically prevented you from buying a card owned by them.
Um, and the final thing, absolute final thing is if, if, if, if I were a Senator, as I was
a Senator Axon or Senator, um, Feinstein and you told me, and I said, oh, I want to ram this
thing through.
So, and anybody would say to them, well, listen to this, you know, this is ridiculous.
I mean, what's the constitution for, et cetera.
You know what they're going to do.
They're going to point to the Oklahoma bombing and say, are you saying that you're willing
to let kids die again for the sake of, of, uh, of freedom of speech?
And, and that's going to go over very well in the mainstream media.
Yeah.
Except for the fact that, that the Oklahoma city bombing had nothing to do with the net or,
or published materials or anything like that.
And there's absolutely nothing this bill could have done to stop it.
Well, there was an editorial in the time, excellent editorial in times.
I think it was by Peter Lewis, but I'm not sure.
We said, um, everything that's on the internet could be found much easier, far easier.
I mean, we're talking sex and, and as well as, uh, incendiary devices in the public library
on television for heaven's sakes, where it's not regulated.
And, you know, Bob Dole comes out with a speech against television, the whole Hollywood
community goes up in arms and no one really pays attention to what's going on as far as,
um, you know, electronic transmissions.
Anyway, thanks a lot.
Okay.
Thanks for calling.
Actually, a lot of people are paying attention.
It's, and it's important for them to, uh, you know, to get out and do something about
it and to, to spread the word and make sure everybody knows before it's too late.
So, uh, go back to the phones.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Yeah.
How you doing?
Uh, go ahead.
Oh, okay.
I'm on the air.
Yes, you are.
Yeah, I just want to ask you a question about the, uh, uh, your phone lines.
I noticed, um, a lot of lines, they said they had, uh, AT&T has a new system out to make
it clearer.
Um, what's the deal with the clicks and different types of problems that you have on your phone
lines?
And they'll check and say it's okay, but, um, is there such a thing as a clear line?
Well, I'm not sure what you mean by clicks on your, on your phone line.
Uh, you can tell the clicks that you hear.
Sometimes I hear clicks on, on various lines.
And then there's some other lines that are totally clear.
Uh, you make a call and you hear a click, click, click, click, like somebody's picking
up a line or hanging out for it.
Uh-huh.
Uh, a lot of, uh, static and so forth.
Well, there's all kinds of things.
Every connection on a phone line, you know, both the receiving line and the sending line,
uh, every connection is subject to, you know, something making it go click.
You know, as a, and I guess clicks are something that drive the phone companies crazy because
they always have to track down these little tiny noises and figure out what's, what's causing
them.
Uh, I thought with the new technology and, and everything that they can do, the digital
technology and so forth and all the different features that they have, you would think that
the line would be clear.
Well, they can run tests.
When you call 611, when you call in, um, uh, repair, uh, and report the line that you're
calling on, you'll actually hear a click, a big click on the line as they test it to see
where there's a short or where there's a particular problem.
So they're able to, uh, to narrow it down a lot easier, uh, through different forms of
technology.
And they're able to say, well, it's testing clear up to your house.
You know, maybe there's a problem within your house or there's a problem in the central office
or, or whatnot.
Uh, so they're able to, to pinpoint problems, but, uh, the problems are still there.
I mean, there are still going to be problems when you have copper wire.
Does that, uh, help?
Well, I guess so, because he's gone.
Okay, maybe one of those clicks got him.
Good evening, you're on the air.
How you doing?
Okay, how are you?
Pretty good.
All right, what can I do for you?
I was wondering, I have numbers about 890 with Residential, um, Annie.
Uh, what?
Okay, basically he, he threw a lot of terms at me.
890, Residential, A&I, and I have no idea what that was all about.
I mean, you never know.
Ah, I hate mysteries.
Good evening, you're on.
Yeah, okay, uh, I just want to turn the radio down.
Okay.
Um, I enjoy your program, and I want to say that I defend freedom of speech,
and the rights of hackers to browse around and, uh, you know, check out what they want to, what they're trying to check out.
But I am against having bomb, uh, information on the net.
Well, are you against having bomb information anywhere?
Yes.
Okay, but, uh...
Because it's bad enough that, uh, this country manufactures, uh, more weapons of destruction and death than anybody else.
And, uh, I mean, that, that, that's a horrendous situation.
To put, uh, this kind of dangerous information out to the public, including the libraries, anywhere, uh, just makes it more dangerous for everybody.
Well, this information has been out since it existed.
It's always been available.
It's always been easy to find out things like this.
It's how the information is used that's the problem.
Well, maybe they can get out of the public, uh, domain.
Because, uh, you know, you're going to get some of these Looney Tunes that are going to get this information and, uh, and use it.
Well, don't you think these Looney Tunes will have a way of getting the information no matter what?
Do you think they'll let the fact that, uh, that it's not in a library or on the internet, uh, stop them from doing something evil?
Well, they, there are some people who, if they're very determined, uh, may be able to get any information.
But when you have a lot of this information being readily available to the public, that just greatly increases the likelihood that somebody is going to use this information.
And it's going to hurt a lot of innocent people.
Yeah, but, um, I can't help but think that a lot of innocent people will be hurt by having information curtailed.
No, no, no, no, don't say information because I...
Well, that's the word we've both been using.
If you want, I really, uh, I defend the net.
And, uh, it's great to have all these alternative sources of information, political or religious.
But let's be specific about what we're talking about.
I'm talking about weapon manufacturing, something that can cause serious injury to innocent people.
Well, then, how about something that could cause serious moral harm to people, which is what, uh, the Exxon Bill is all about.
You know, that's, that's, uh, uh, curtailing information of an indecent sort.
You see, once you start, uh, with, with various, uh, exemptions...
Well, you know, morality is a little bit different.
Um, uh, you know, you can't say that once they limit, uh, bomb-making information,
then the next thing they're going to do is they're going to, uh, stop, uh, novels by James Joyce
or, uh, maybe something, put The Catcher in the Rye or something.
I mean, you can't lump everything together.
I mean, there's a lot of information that should be available to the public,
but making bombs and weapons is something that should not be put out there.
I'm just, uh, absolutely set against it.
How about, um, a computer virus?
Would you let that be on the net?
Information on how to, how to write a computer virus?
Uh, maybe, yeah.
Why?
You can destroy a computer system.
And destroying a computer system can cause all kinds of problems and harm to people.
You see, it's not so much the information, it's what you do with it.
And I don't think stopping the information is going to stop the problem.
In fact, I think it's going to start all kinds of other problems
because then people will see a precedent, and they'll say,
well, when there's a problem, we simply cut off the information source
and the problem will go away, even though it really doesn't.
Well, I, I, I don't agree with that.
But, uh, I think that there are some, uh, some things that should not be available for the public
uh, so that they can just make, uh, you know, these terrible weapons.
Suppose I tell you over the telephone...
I mean, I, I, I can't, I, I wouldn't even equate a computer virus to, uh, a bomb.
Well, okay, well, we won't get into that, but, um, suppose I tell you over the telephone
how to make a bomb, and you listen to me.
Have we committed a crime in your eyes?
We haven't built a bomb, we haven't set off a bomb,
we've just talked about it, and we've, we've conveyed information.
Uh, no, I wouldn't consider that, uh...
Well, why not? It's the same thing.
It's just that...
Well, no, it's not the same.
...the means are different.
No, because you're talking from one person to another, it's limited.
Okay, if I were to stand up...
But if you were to...
...in front of a crowd of people in Central Park...
...and tell them how to make a bomb, you're telling me that would be illegal, in your eyes?
Say that again?
Should that be illegal if I stand up on a soapbox in the middle of Central Park
and tell people how to blow something up?
Yes, that, that, I would say that that should be illegal.
Yeah, absolutely.
So...
That's, that's, uh, even worse than standing up in a crowded, uh, theater and yelling fire.
Well, I think when you stand...
Well, of course, if the theater's on fire, you should do that, but if the theater is not on fire...
It's, it's, it's illegal to cause people, stampede, uh, stampede, that, uh, causes a lot of it.
Well, I, do you think I would cause a stampede of people rushing off to make bombs when I, when I tell them how to do that?
No, but, you know, you have to, you have to understand human nature.
Uh, when people are inundated,
with, uh, information, uh, they're more likely to get involved in what, uh, they're, they're reading about, or, or, you know, the, the information that they have.
Well, they're more likely to become educated in the subject, but, um...
Why do you want everybody to be educated in how to make weapons that, that cripple and, and murder people, or, and kill people?
Well, it's, it's not that I have a fascination with people building bombs.
It's, I have, uh, an interest in, in keeping freedom of speech open,
and, unfortunately, uh, when you defend freedom of speech, you wind up defending a lot of speech that is abhorrent to you.
Well, I, uh, if you don't, then, uh, then it's kind of meaningless.
Well, I agree with defending freedom of speech, but there have to be some limitations,
and when it comes to, uh, making information available to the general public to make, uh, bombs or weapons that can cause serious injury,
that is something that should be limited, and I, I believe it, it, it should be, uh, outlawed.
So, would you support pulling all the books out of the libraries that, uh, have this information in them?
Uh, that might be, uh, a good suggestion, yeah.
I don't know. Somehow, I don't think the picture of all these books being removed is going to do much for, for this cause.
You know, I, I just don't, and I don't see the people that are so eager at getting the internet not to have this information,
pushing for libraries to get rid of this information as well,
because I think they, they realize that, uh, when people see books being taken out of libraries,
they may say, wait a minute, this doesn't, this isn't the right way to go.
Uh, I, I think, you know, a lot of people realize when something's on printed paper that's protected by the First Amendment,
and when you start banning things like that, uh, it, it, it's pretty obvious what you're actually doing.
There's a lot of information that we should have in the public domain that the government censors,
uh, and it should not be censored, and it has to do with public policy, and, uh, government terrorism,
and, uh, a lot of things that they try to hide from the public.
Uh, you know, I, I, I really, uh, I don't like censorship, and it, uh, it has caused a lot of problems in this country,
but you, you can't lump everything together, and you have to separate out some things that I feel just should not be out for the public to, to have.
Okay, but...
I don't want people to be able to make good.
But, sir, you've said a very key point here, the things that you feel.
Now, what if somebody else feels that, uh, that certain, uh, images are offensive to them and to their families,
then they feel that they should have that taken out, and, um, you know, they may be able to argue a very convincing case
that, uh, that something with, with bad language or something with immoral situations, in their opinion,
is very harmful to society, they may be able to convince some conservative senators to go for this.
Well, you may have, uh, a minority of people who, uh, believe that, but, uh, again,
I don't equate, uh, pornography or moral, uh, subject matter, uh, in the same category as making weapons of, uh, death and destruction.
I just, uh, there's, there's no, it's just not similar to me.
Okay, well, thanks for the call.
Okay, man, you'll thank you, and keep up the good work.
Okay, take care.
Okay, bye.
Interesting, uh, interesting points.
Good evening, you're on.
Interesting, uh, interesting points.
Yes, very, very interesting points.
Hello?
Take it all away.
Uh-huh.
Uh, a quick question.
Um, I recently purchased a 900 megahertz, uh, spread spectrum technology by Uniden.
Uh, how, uh, it says, it describes itself as virtually impossible to monitor.
Uh, how secure is it?
Um, what exactly is the model number?
It's, uh, a Uniden, it's a 900 megahertz digital spread spectrum technology.
What is it?
Is it a scanner or a phone?
Oh, I'm sorry.
It's a two-line, uh, cordless phone.
Okay, um, I have not, I, I've, I've listened to those on my scanner, and they do sound garbled.
I don't know how easy it is to, uh, to unscramble that.
Do you have a scanner if it's digital, or do you have a digital scanner?
I'm sorry?
Do you have a digital scanner?
Uh, I, well, it's, it's putting something out on, on a 900 megahertz frequency.
You tune to that frequency, you get a frequency counter, walk up to it, see what it's transmitting on,
and you tune to that, and you'll hear garbled speech.
Okay, are those the, actually, the digital, or are those the ones that have some kind of, uh, you know,
I know a few of them make them where they do something between bass and phone to garble it.
Can the broad spectrum technology be intercepted relatively easily?
Um, I, I'm really not sure on that, to be honest.
Broad spectrum technology, I think is what they call it.
Because I don't have one of those myself, I haven't had a chance to, uh, to play with it, but, uh,
you know, the best thing to do is just, you know, you find out what it's broadcasting on,
and see how it's, how it handles that.
Okay, but I mean, I'm sure.
Somehow, uh, most scanners that I have are not capable, you know,
the scanners that I have anywhere are not capable of, uh,
basically handling digital communication to begin with.
Because, why?
Because they're either, they're either amplitude modulation, or they're, uh, single sideband,
and I think that, you know, basically, you know, I'm not a technical person,
but isn't basically a digital just putting out, uh, a series of tones?
Well, yeah, but, you know, if you have a way of decoding those tones,
and turning them into speech, or, or, uh, somehow, uh, de-scrambling them,
unless, um, unless you have something which is rapidly switching frequencies,
from one frequency to another.
It's doing, I believe.
And, uh, well, if that's what it's doing, then yes, that's, that's designed so that you cannot, uh, scan it.
Uh, but if it's simply putting something out, uh, in, in some sort of a digital form,
you know, it's, uh, obviously more difficult, uh, but it's not impossible.
Is there any way I could find that out?
Read, read, um, there's two publications, Monitoring Times and Popular Communications,
and they keep up to date on these things.
Okay.
Uh, particularly Monitoring Times.
Either one, is that just a place I could call, or?
I just go to one of these, uh, one of these cool bookstores that are popping up,
and, uh, and ask them.
Okay.
They should have those magazines.
Uh, a brief 9X story.
Very brief.
Very brief.
Uh, I have, uh, two lines with LEDs.
My wife called me, and one said the other was, and you, she picked it up,
and someone said they were a 9X repair technician calling back to their, to their base.
Uh-huh.
Uh, I said, conference me in.
I called up, and I said, you know, what right do you have to make an unauthorized tap on my phone?
And I said, no problem.
You know, it's perfectly legal.
I said, can I have your name?
Whatever they hung up.
I reported it to 9X, to the president's, uh, hotline, supposedly.
Uh, they then informed me that that was acceptable policy, according to a technician.
I reported it to the PSC, Public Service Commission.
They said they would look into it.
Was away on vacation for a week, and when I came back,
I found myself subject to some real high-tech, uh, games that were being played.
Such as?
Uh, I have an unlisted number.
Uh, I know it's not that hard to get unlisted, uh, private number and a public number.
On my unlisted, which jumps, you know, has a jump thing, had a jump thing at the time I've taken off to go to the second phone.
Uh, my phone was ringing approximately every minute without stop.
Uh, I figured if I wanted to do that, how would I do that?
Maybe I would, uh, throw a fax machine call back on, or something like that.
So I checked it on my computer on fax, and it was not coming in as a fax transmission, because it would just get tones.
You know, I tried all kinds of games and other kinds of stuff.
Uh...
Well, we only have a couple of seconds. Did you track it down?
No, I actually, what I did was not follow through on my attempts to, I had asked, uh, 9X, you know, for a written complaint.
You know, I had asked them for a written policy.
If this is your policy, that you could, in effect, have your repairman go, enter my line without previous consent
for making calls to the office or any place else, I'd like it in writing.
Uh-huh.
And the Public Service Commission had told me to deal, you know, with the company about this,
and that they've been instructed to answer.
Uh, I never got anything in writing.
Uh, you know, this continued for an entire weekend.
I reported it to the local precinct.
I tried the, you know, on Monday morning, the phone harassment,
and they informed me there was nothing they could do for a number of reasons.
They also informed me, which I found fascinating,
that if this call was originating outside of the 9X calling area,
they would be able to provide no information, including whatever information they had.
It's discovered about it to me.
Well, that's not unusual, but they are required to tell the people or entities
to stop doing whatever it is they're doing.
And if it was outside of the 9X area, other than a subpoena, you know,
forcing them to reveal the information, they could not help me in any way, shape, or form.
Okay, well, we are out of time, so we're going to have to stop here.
But let me just say in closing that it's not usually policy of big corporations
to individually harass their customers.
What sounds like might have happened is that some one person at that company
may have gotten chewed out or something and maybe had a few vindictive feelings
and took them out on the customer.
Who knows?
But the only way to really put it to an end is to complain
and to make sure that they're tracked down and told to stop,
or, you know, if it's even more troublesome than that, prosecute it in some way.
Anyway, that's our show for tonight.
We'll be back again next week in one form or another.
Until then, this is Emmanuel Goldstein for Off the Hook.
Good night.
The phone keeps ringing
So I ripped it off the wall
I cut myself while shaving
Now I can't make a cough
It couldn't get much worse
But if they could, they would
Bumbin' it bombed for the best, expect the worst
I hope that's understood
Bumbin' it bombed!