You can't be wrong.
I know, but...
You were wrong, and so was she.
But don't be discouraged.
With a little study, you'll go a long ways, and I wish you'd start now.
And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York,
where the time is exactly 10 o'clock.
And it's time now for Off the Hook.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
It couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
Bum-diddly-bum, but the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
Bum-diddly-bum!
Bum-diddly-bum!
and a very good evening to everybody the program is off the hook and this is emmanuel goldstein
we'll be together for the next hour or so and yes we're live this week uh this week we are here
in new york right now as we speak very very live on the radio as opposed to the last two weeks well
one week we weren't here at all and last week uh we were repeated from um a show that we did last
summer which was kind of interesting an interview with with uh john markoff concerning then fugitive
kevin mitnick who we have some news about this week but uh we'll get to that in just uh just a
little bit now the reason we weren't around last couple of weeks i was uh wandering around europe
and uh going to conferences well going to a conference that is just having uh having a few
adventures which is kind of the thing i like to do occasionally and learning a whole lot about
various things and that's kind of what we're going to uh be talking about tonight sharing a little bit
of information seeing what's been happening uh back here in new york and uh being updated with
the stories of several other people as well first the news about kevin mitnick actually uh let me just
introduce um uh fiber optic who is joining us tonight on the phone fiber you there yes i am okay
sorry i couldn't be with us in person tonight but um at least you're with us through uh through
telephones now um you're you're getting a new isdn line i understand right a new what are you getting
a new isdn line because because you've moved uh yes that's true so it's kind of funny that whole saga
that we went through uh where it took us about 40 days to get the isdn lines you had to go through
it again was it any easier the second time around uh yeah it didn't take quite as long it wasn't quite
40 days uh it was a couple of weeks before they really got themselves into gear and realized what
it was that i wanted and uh did you talk to the same people was it kind of like a high school
reunion type of thing oh actually it was different people this time totally different yeah how about
that well i was just telling the folks about um about my recent uh actually very recent trip i got
back yesterday um i went over to um uh to england and holland uh mostly uh there was a conference in
england called access all areas uh it was the first conference first hacker conference over there
and it was kind of neat uh um seeing people there for the first time you know i i gave a speech in
front of this crowd of several hundred people and one of the things i asked imagine asking this at a
hacker conference and having absolutely nobody be able to help you i asked if anybody in the crowd
had a red box and there was not one person who did of course red boxes don't work over there
but i wanted to demonstrate how these little beeps are getting people into so much trouble over here
just just possessing a box that can that can have you know five little beeps um but nobody there and
hundreds of people had had a red box so that was uh that was kind of neat but they do have some
really um really neat things going on over there as far as the way they make phone calls the way
they're developing things in the future um i've got a few articles uh pertinent to that i clipped
from some some british papers uh one thing which i think we need to really take a good look at is the
way this is not only england this is holland as well uh the way they make phone calls is is different
very different from the way we make phone calls actually i should say we make phone calls in a way
that's radically different than anybody else uh let's say we want to call overseas uh now fiber
you're familiar with the way that works right sure okay you dial 011 uh country code city code number
etc and um i don't know what was that uh what does that what does that work out to usually
how much do you think it uh it costs to do that oh well it depends on the country yeah i guess it does
um i'm gonna i'm gonna get an operator on the line okay you don't mind if we if we three-way to an
operator do you okay i always like to ask people first before i do that because you know to have
somebody barge in on your phone call is kind of you know can be kind of rude sometimes but let's uh
let's see if i can get a trusty dial tone here okay we got one gonna dial uh an operator actually
we're gonna have to get um the long distance operator to help us here let's turn down the music so she
doesn't get confused music's down
operator coming on board
hello uh we need long distance um operator rate information please for what area code uh for it's
for a country different country okay thank you very much i think she meant to say one moment
but uh she cut herself off that's okay mci mci since when do we have mci area code first
huh operator assistance press zero now or stay on the line let's just stay on the line because
information credits or customer service press one now i didn't know we had mci this is this is a
revelation to me we have a different phone company every week it seems to call area code first
for operator assistance press zero now yeah didn't we just go through this fine for rate information
credits or customer service press one now we don't have a touchtone phone okay get that uh through your
head please hold for operator assistance okay they got it
just trying to find out how much it costs
mci may help you yes i'd like to know how much a um a one minute call to amsterdam would cost at this
time one moment thank you oh we're going somewhere else
anybody on the line mci are you there
this unfortunately is is eight is very typical of finding out information
mci how may i help you yes hi i need rate information please okay uh for a call to amsterdam at this time
okay
uh
Okay, sir, do you have the number that you're going to call?
Actually, I don't have the full number.
I just know it's country code 31, city code 20.
Okay.
Okay.
I just need to know for one minute, really.
Or maybe two minutes.
Maximum three.
Okay.
Maybe four.
Okay.
Okay, can I have your home phone with area code first?
Well, I don't have MCI right now as my primary service.
Okay.
But why do you need my phone number?
So I can press the call.
Okay, the country code was 31?
Yeah, city code is 20.
You can use any phone number, right?
Yeah.
Okay, so I'll give you 212-556-1234.
It's the New York Times.
Okay.
Imagine it would be the same from there as from here.
Okay, but the first minute, it would be a few calls between the hours of 7 a.m. and 12.59 p.m.
It's going to be $1.50 the first minute and $1.35 each additional minute.
If you call between the hours of 1 p.m. and 5.59 p.m., it's going to be $1.02 the first minute and $0.92 each additional minute.
If you call between the hours of 6 p.m. and 6.59 a.m., that's $0.89 the first minute and $0.82 each additional minute.
Okay.
Okay, and if you come to MCI and you get on a plan, you would get an additional discount rate.
Right, you get even more of a good rate than that.
Okay, well, thank you very much for your help.
Thank you for using MCI.
Okay, bye-bye.
I'm being beeped.
I see.
I'm being told not to call MCI anymore because their rates are terrible.
Well, what do you think of that, Fiber?
I think it's interesting that they actually charge you more money if you try to call overseas when they're asleep.
Well, let's see.
The most expensive rate was between 7 a.m. and 12.59 p.m., which would translate to...
Actually, no, that would be the middle of the day for them.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, they charge you less if you call them between 6 p.m. and 6.59 a.m., which would be between midnight and midday, I guess.
Okay, so it's the other way around.
Something like that.
But the point of the matter is, in this country, the way we make long-distance phone calls, we charge an extraordinary amount for the first minute.
And I'll try doing this from a payphone, too.
Oh, you don't even want to know what that's going to cost you to payphone for the first minute.
I mean, what do you think?
I can't even imagine.
It's probably exorbitant.
Because if you call something, say, in California now, at this particular time of day, it's going to cost you, what, for the first minute maybe 15 cents?
But if you call from a payphone, it'll cost you $2.40 for the first minute, which is why everybody uses Redboxes,
because it's the only way you can afford to make a payphone call in the first place.
I don't condone it, but I'm just pointing out some social reality here.
Now, in Europe, okay, they do it differently.
First of all, they've standardized every country now because of the upcoming union or the union which is taking place.
They all dial 00 now for overseas.
So it's 00 and then the country code and the city code and the number.
So to call the United States, to call here at BAI, for instance, you would call 001-212-279-3400.
That would be what you would call from any phone in Western Europe.
Now, you can go to a payphone and do the exact same thing.
And the way that they actually do the billing is they use these things called ticks or pulses.
And it just goes a little faster if it's an expensive call and it goes slower if it's a local call or it doesn't go at all if it's unlimited.
So imagine this.
You're at a payphone, right?
You have a 10-pence coin.
Say you're in England.
You have a 10-pence coin, which is about 14 cents in our money.
You throw that into the payphone.
You can actually dial overseas and speak for about 10 seconds anywhere.
Now, I think that's a better system because you can call anybody anywhere, anytime for a little amount of money, speak for a couple of seconds.
If you're calling somebody locally, you can speak for much longer.
But the point is you don't have to have some kind of calling card.
You don't have to have a tremendous amount of change on hand.
You don't even have to have a red box or anything like that because it's affordable.
It's cheap.
It's quick.
It's easy.
We have those phones in Penn Station where you can call anywhere in New York State for 30 seconds for 25 cents.
Wow, big deal.
But everywhere else, you can call anywhere in the world for about that amount of time, for about that amount of money.
So I don't know.
I just think it's a much more logical system.
How does it sound to you?
Oh, well, it certainly seems to work in the consumer's favor overseas.
Yeah.
And it makes it very simple, too, because you have either a phone card or change.
And, you know, with the phone cards, you get a certain amount of units, say 20 units for a certain amount of money.
And it's about the same.
You know, they don't gouge the prices.
It's about the same that you're paying for the phone card as you would if you were putting money into the phone.
So you just watch the units on the phone going down.
You can see them going down pretty fast if you're calling very far away.
And it's the same principle, basically.
So I think that's something we could learn a lot from.
And it's about time that we did.
So that's something I learned from watching.
I mean, this is nothing new.
This is how they've been doing it for a long, long time.
What's new is the fact that they're standardizing it, that they're making it something that's very simple and, you know, easy to do no matter what country you're in.
So, okay, we have that.
We have phone cards that are popping up everywhere.
Virtually every country has those phone cards now.
It's bad in the way in Holland, for instance, it used to be a lot simpler, a lot easier to make coin calls.
Now virtually every phone is a card-only phone.
And that's bad if you don't have a card, obviously, because you only have to, first of all, for instance, I had to call somebody a few, maybe a mile away, less than a mile away, in fact, because I had a change of plans.
So I was there in the train station, central station in Amsterdam, and I needed to call somebody less than a mile away and have them meet me someplace else.
Well, first of all, I didn't have the phone number they were at, so I had to look it up.
Okay, I had to look up the phone number using information.
So I could not just go to a phone.
If I was in the United States, all I would have had to have done was pick up a phone, dial 411 or something, get the name of the person, and then, you know, either throw in a quarter, use a 950 code, use a calling card, God forbid, and call the person that way.
But here it was kind of a ridiculous system.
I, first of all, had to get a phone card to use the phone, even to call information.
Information was free, but it wouldn't process unless you had a phone card.
So I went to a paper store to buy a phone card, and, well, we don't sell phone cards here.
You have to buy phone cards from the domestic rail station, you know, not the international rail station, the domestic rail station.
So I had to wait on this line of about 20 people who were buying train tickets to buy a phone card.
And that took about another 20 minutes to do that, which was pretty fast, actually, considering the number of people on the line.
And so I bought this phone card, and then I went to a phone, had to figure out what to dial to get information in the first place.
I think it was 192 or some craziness.
No, it was something, it was an 06 number in Amsterdam.
And that didn't go through for some reason.
Actually, the whole phone didn't work.
It just, it would not process the call, and it was saying something in Dutch, and I couldn't understand it.
And I tried all these other phones.
Turned out that those phones had their batteries drained or something.
And that happens occasionally with these phones.
They don't get enough current off the phone line, and the batteries drain, and they don't work at all.
So then I walked literally a quarter of a mile to another phone and dialed information there, and it just never picked up.
It just kept ringing and ringing and ringing and ringing.
So I had to give up and just walk over to the person's house to give them the message.
So in that way, the system did not work at all.
It was not simple.
It was complex and slow and bureaucratic.
So there's good and there's bad.
But I think we need to take a look at the good and implement it on our system.
For instance, we have our phone card system here, those yellow phones popping up everywhere.
Have you used one of those yet?
Actually, I haven't.
Yeah, I don't like them.
I really don't, because there's so much they don't do.
They don't call 800 numbers.
They don't call 950 numbers.
You can't get calls on them, you know, and I'm not too sure how good the rate is on these things.
So I don't know.
I don't know if they're going to work, these big yellow 9X phones that are popping up everywhere.
And they're replacing real phones, and you can't use those.
So, um...
I did find something interesting about those yellow phones, though.
What's that?
Apparently, they're being made in Japan.
Really?
The yellow phones are being made in Japan?
Yeah, by, uh...
I believe by Nippon Telephone and Telegraph.
How about that?
That is something.
Oh, I'm told we can turn the music back up.
Good.
Okay.
Um...
Now, have you heard the news about Kevin Mitnick?
Uh, yeah, that, uh, he's, uh, supposedly accepting a plea bargain, which, uh, he'll probably serve eight months in prison.
Eight months in prison is what we're looking at now, uh, because he, he was going to plead guilty to one of the, I believe, 22 charges against him in North Carolina.
So, that means there will not be a trial on July 10th, as, uh, previously announced.
And he will serve...
Now, this is the interesting part.
I read this in the, in the, in the Wire Dispatch.
Uh, he will serve a period not exceeding eight months.
However, he can appeal the sentence if the judge imposes a sentence longer than eight months.
Now, I don't understand that.
They say he can, he'll be given a maximum of eight months, but, uh, he might be given more.
It doesn't make any sense.
Uh, so, there's that, but he can also face charges in other states.
And, um, uh, there, there are states like, I think, uh, Colorado and, and Washington and certainly California where he was, uh, convicted of, um, or, or certainly accused of probation violation in the first place.
Um, hopefully that won't happen.
Eight months in prison is still eight months in prison, but, uh, it's a whole lot better than some of the stuff we were, um, we were looking at before.
Where, uh, it looked like he was never going to get out.
It would be nice to have him get out and hear his story, you know, straight from him and not, uh, not through the words of others who have a lot to gain from that.
So, that's the story as far as, uh, Kevin Mitnick goes.
Uh, Bernie S., uh, we know he's still in prison.
We have not heard from him recently.
Uh, hopefully he'll call in tonight, uh, if he's able to get to a phone.
Um, don't know anything more about that except that, uh, he is facing those charges.
Of, uh, possession of a red box and possession of a computer and software to, uh, that can be used to modify cellular phones.
Um, the Exxon bill happened right after our last, um, our last live show a couple of weeks ago.
The Exxon bill was, uh, or amendment was passed by the Senate.
Um, what's, what's been your feeling on this, Fiber?
Oh, boy.
I don't, I don't really know what to say.
It's, uh, it's pretty scary.
Well, you know, it was, it was neat how Newt Gingrich came out against it.
What do you think of that?
I think that was just a publicity move.
Yeah, but don't you think we should support it anyway?
I mean, you know, it doesn't matter why he's saying it.
The fact of the matter is, he's coming out against it, and his opposition could be enough to completely defeat this thing.
Possibly.
I mean, I'd like to think that anyway, because, um, it, it, you know, it passed by, I think, 86 to 14 in the Senate, and if it passes in the House, you know, 86 to 14 is enough to override any presidential veto, and I don't think our president is about to veto this anyway, because, um, I don't think he has a spine in any, any sense of the word.
Um, so, it, it stands a very real chance of, of, of getting, getting passed.
Now, for those who don't know, the Exxon bill will basically make it illegal to use, uh, cuss words on the internet to, uh, post certain pictures, GIFs, JPEGs, what have you, that, uh, might be considered, um, pornographic, obscene, indecent.
I mean, we're talking severe penalties here for doing these things.
Uh, no, actually.
Yeah, the House of Representatives, I've read this on, uh, overseas, and it seemed pretty incredible, um, but, uh, apparently the House of Representatives has voted in favor of an amendment to the Constitution, uh, that would basically, uh, put a little star next to the First Amendment, saying, yeah, you can say various things, except don't burn a flag, because that will be illegal.
Uh, this goes against what the Supreme Court has been saying, um, which, you gotta, you gotta wonder about that, you know, the House of Representatives, uh, feels that the Supreme Court does not, uh,
stand up for the, uh, for what the Bill of Rights is all about, that they're a little too liberal here, so we need a special amendment just to protect people from burning a piece of cloth, you know, it's all symbolism.
So, yeah, we're in trouble, big trouble here, and nowhere is this more apparent than when you go overseas and you see how people are reacting to certain things.
Um, it's, it's, it's, it's kind of sad in, in, in many ways, because we just don't seem to have a clue over here on a lot of, uh, a lot of issues, a lot of, um, you know, when you go overseas, okay, this is how it is.
It's like the United States is a country for children.
We have to be guided, we have to be, uh, taught what to do, we have to be, um, um, protected from ourselves.
You know, you have to have no smoking regulations everywhere, you gotta tell people, don't do this, you gotta wear your seatbelt, you know, you can't, uh, you, you can't do this until you're 21, you can't do that, you can't, you know, speed limits, and all these things that are, that are really, really restrictive, that are common sense, that people over there do anyway, because it's common sense.
But, but, they don't do it because, you know, of all the negative, um, reinforcement.
You know how, all that negative reinforcement when you were in prison?
Oh, definitely.
Yeah, it's the same thing.
It's basically, you have to do this, because if you don't do this, this is what will happen to you.
And, over there, it's, it's more like, well, you know, you have to, you, you don't have to do this, but if you don't do this, you're stupid.
Because, you know, you're gonna get hurt, you're gonna die, you're gonna do something, you know, that's really only gonna hurt yourself.
And, um, people are a lot more socially aware, socially conscious of what will hurt other people.
You don't have as many drunk drivers, for instance.
Because people have a sense, and they, they have not been forbidden from the beginning of time, from, like, uh, you know, drinking beer until they're 21.
People there are able to drink alcohol when they're, say, 15.
And they develop more of a sense of responsibility, because they, they know what their limits are,
they know how it affects them.
When, when you're able to drink before you're able to drive, you know, you're able to sort of balance, balance it all out.
Everybody is gonna drink over here anyway.
You know, even though they're, uh, they're, they're technically forbidden from doing it.
It's the easiest thing in the world to do.
Um, and if you have a license and, and, you know, you're experimenting with, with alcohol, you know, you're still experimenting with alcohol, you're gonna have some collisions as far as the two various things go.
But, um, I just think over there they, they, they, they do it a lot better.
They seem to, you know, balance it all out so that, uh, people take care of themselves.
It's not the government taking care of them.
And I, there, there seems to be this will over here to have the government solve everything.
If there's a problem on the internet, well, let's just, let's make some new laws to make this illegal and this illegal and have some penalties imposed if you do this.
Instead of just, um, figuring out what's best and having people decide, you know, does that make any sense?
Well, it just kind of scares me when you see these, uh, conservative right-wing people who, uh, want the government to do all those things for them that they'd rather not be bothered with.
Well, you know, a lot of conservative right-wing people want less government.
I mean, it's kind of weird to see this because you get some strange bedfellows here.
You get the, I mean, who, who was it that, that started this whole information superhighway business?
It was Al Gore.
Who was it that started the Clipper chip, you know, as a Clinton administration?
You know, this, this anti-terrorism bill, that's, you know, the Democrats are, are, are the ones pushing this.
Dianne Feinstein, you know, from California, the net Nazi.
She's a Democrat, you know, from San Francisco of all places.
You have to wonder where is this, who, who are the, uh, you know, the enlightened ones and, and, and who are not, you know, Representative Markey, he's a Democrat and he doesn't have a clue.
And, and, and, you know, sometimes you see Republicans that, that understand what it is you're trying to say.
Sometimes you see Democrats that do, and, and sometimes you don't.
So, it's kind of hard to judge people based on their party affiliations.
You know, Newt Gingrich really surprised me when he said what he said about the Exxon Amendment.
Um, because he seemed to support it before, and then he suddenly turned around and stopped supporting it.
So, I don't know, I think you can reach people no matter what party affiliation they are.
And it's important at this particular stage that we reach a lot of people, you know, so that they understand what the net is all about, why it has to be protected.
And, well, basically, less protected, it can take care of itself, just not interfered with, not over-regulated, not, uh, restricted and legislated.
We don't need that.
Um, another thing, something that, uh, was very disturbing, especially in England, was the amount of cameras that have popped up in that country.
It's really scary.
There's cameras everywhere.
I mean, on the highways as you're driving.
Oh, I rented a car.
This is great.
I rented a car in England because I wanted to drive on the other side of the road, you know, legally.
And, and it's, it's quite a trip.
I think everyone should try this at least once.
I thought for sure I was going to, I was going to kill somebody because you don't have to take a driver's test or anything.
You just basically have a driver's license, you know, a legal driver's license in the States, and you can rent the car over there and drive on the other side of the road.
So, first of all, the, the, the clue that you have that something is horribly wrong is the fact that the steering wheel is on the other side of the car.
So, you're sitting in there and, you know, you're driving around and you realize that, hey, you know, I can't be on that side of the road like I want to be.
I have to be on this side.
Plus the fact that everybody's coming at you from the right side of the road, it sort of reinforces that decision.
The, the, the gear shift, I always wondered about this.
Where do they put the gear shift?
You know, I'm right-handed.
So, how am I going to be able to shift with my left hand?
Well, it is on the left side, yet I'm able to, to, to shift fairly easily somehow.
It wasn't that much of a problem to do.
So, I don't really, hang on.
We might, we might have Bernie S. on the line.
Hold on one second.
Let me see if, no, it's not there.
Okay.
But maybe that would be him.
Okay.
So, the interesting thing is that it wasn't that big a deal.
So, the hardest part, the hardest part was simply getting used to the idea of everybody coming at you from the other side of the road.
Now, as I was driving around, I noticed that going through little towns, you'd see this, like, picture of a camera.
It was a warning that they have speed cameras.
You know, cameras that, that, you know how they take your picture here in New York City?
Certain intersections?
Sure.
Well, they take your picture if you speed over there, which, you know, is kind of, kind of disturbing, to say the least.
Um, hang on, let's see if this is Bernie S.
Stand by.
Okay.
I think that is Bernie S.
This is Locktel.
You have a collect call from Bernie S.
To accept the call, please dial 9 now.
If you do not want to accept this call, hang up now.
Can you hit a 9, Fiber?
Sure.
Please go ahead.
You are now connected.
Bernie S., are you there?
Hello, Emmanuel.
Okay, we got Fiber on the line, too.
Um, I just got back from, uh, from overseas, and I was, uh, I was talking about, uh, the various cameras and things that they have over there.
Um, I'll get back to that story in a minute, but, uh, I want to update people with you.
They have a lot of cameras over here, too.
Well, you're in a federal prison.
You know, that's, the whole country over there, you know, they have, they have speed cameras that take your picture as you speed.
They have cameras that are hidden in light fixtures.
You know, street lights have cameras in them, so you can't see them.
They have cameras hidden in birdhouses here.
Well, yeah, I know about that.
But on top of apartment buildings, I'm talking, like, 30-story apartment buildings, you see this little red light.
It's a camera pointed down at the street.
Who owns and operates these cameras?
The government.
The government is doing all this.
There was, there was one instance in Piccadilly Circus in London where these, these kind of, kind of drunk, uh, tourist people were standing in front of a fountain, you know, taking pictures and things like that.
All of a sudden, this is, like, straight out of The Prisoner or, or, you know, a George Orwell tale or, or something like this.
You hear this, this British voice saying, uh, young lady, please get down from the statue.
You know, where is this voice coming from?
Who is sitting around watching people in front of a statue and, and, you know, who is compelled to, to tell them to come down from there?
Is there a central control somewhere in the city?
Is there a guy sitting behind the statue?
Who, I don't know.
It was a minor thing.
It was a funny thing.
But it still scares me because.
I'm surprised a lot of these cameras haven't been picked off by, uh, people with, uh, BB guns or pellet guns or.
Well, you know, that's one thing they don't have very much of over there are armed people in any sense.
And that's good, you know, um, in, in England and Holland, um, you know, the, the police have some arms, not as much as they do over here.
And, and the citizens have very little, if any, you just get a sense that things are a little bit more in control that way.
Well, I, I wasn't suggesting, you know, true firearms, BB guns or pellet guns aren't, aren't, uh, don't use gunpowder in there.
They can't really kill anybody.
Also, uh, someone once related to me that one of these, uh, popular paintball guns that are used for, uh, uh, fighting games are, are excellent for, uh, disabling video cameras from a distance.
There are, uh, small balls about the size of a marble that, uh, uh, shoot at several hundred feet a second.
And when they hit their target, they splatter a big blob of paint on whatever they hit.
And, uh, of course, if that goes in the lens of the camera, then they can't see anymore.
That's, that's true.
So, yes, that's quite unfortunate for that.
Uh, you know, or if you shine a bright beam of light.
Yeah.
You know, that, that'll, that'll certainly do it too.
Little solid state, uh, uh, lasers you can buy now that are about $50.
Mm-hmm.
Well, now, um, update us on what's going on with you because I've been out of touch for a few weeks myself.
So, uh, update us.
Well, I've been in prison now for close to four months now.
Uh, first, I also want to thank, uh, everyone who's, uh, sent me letters and magazines.
It's, uh, it's helped to, uh, maintain, help me maintain my sanity here in an otherwise insane environment.
My trial date is set for July 31st.
And for people who haven't heard about this story before, I, my, the two charges, federal charges against me,
which are both felonies, are, uh, possession of hardware or software for the modification of telecommunications instruments
for the unauthorized use of telecommunications, telecommunications services,
which in plain English means I have a, had a computer program on a laptop computer that allows,
allegedly allows someone to, uh, program a cellular telephone, uh, to change its telephone number and its serial number.
Okay.
Uh, the other thing I'm charged with is possessing a modified touchtone dialer.
The government is not alleging that I, uh, did anything with either of these, uh, uh, these things, a dialer or a program.
They're just alleging that I possess them.
And that's enough to, uh, uh, coordinate the federal government to, uh, warrant a, uh, a maximum 15-year, uh, prison term on each count.
Unbelievable.
Now, uh, give us the trial information again.
Well, again, it's set for July 31st at the, uh, uh, Philadelphia Federal Courthouse, which is at 6th and Arch Streets in Philadelphia.
It's set for 10.30 a.m. on the fifth floor.
Uh, I am continuing, uh, I'm continued, uh, my denial of bail is being continued.
Um, they evidently think I'm a dangerous person because of certain books I had in my library at home.
Um, and, uh, that, uh, that seems to be the, uh, the primary reason that I'm being held now according to, uh, an informal discussion between my attorney and the, uh, the prosecuting attorney.
I have just hired a new attorney last week who is a former federal prosecutor who seems to have a much better idea of how they do business in this strange and bizarre world of federal justice system.
What I cannot understand is how any attorney is not able to get you bail, because this is ridiculous.
They have no evidence that you are a danger to society because you had books.
That's crazy.
Well, I've, I've.
What have you ever done?
You know?
I've just retained this guy, and he's, uh, he's confident that, uh, that he'll, he'll be able to schedule a bail hearing for me shortly.
However, that may be, they may be a moot point since my trial is at the end of this month.
So I would like to be able to get out, uh, uh, in time to do a little bit of planning for my trial.
Uh, plus I'd be able to show up in normal clothing.
I'm forced to wear an orange jumpsuit here, which, uh, it's getting pretty old.
I, I, I can imagine.
I, I had an interesting experience here, uh, Monday.
Uh, they've just, uh, installed an experimental video teleconferencing system here at the federal prison, uh, which has a, uh, direct, uh, uh, link to the federal courthouse in Philadelphia.
And they would like to do away with the inconvenience of transport, of having the U.S. Marshals transport, uh, inmates or suspects from the prison to the courthouse, which is about an hour away.
And, uh, they'd like to do this, uh, in, in cyberspace, if you want to say it.
So, um, my attorney was not able to get down here Monday.
He wanted to talk with me.
Um, actually, no, this was, yeah, this was Monday.
He wanted to talk with me Monday, but he didn't have three hours in his schedule.
So he, uh, scheduled to talk to me via, via, via picture phone.
And, uh, it was a very eerie experience.
He was, he was sitting, uh, in an unused courtroom in the federal building, and I was sitting here, uh, in my orange jumpsuit at the federal prison in front of another camera and video monitor.
And, uh, um, I've used, uh, video teleconference links before, but this was, it was just very, a very strange and surreal experience.
Uh, uh, they don't, they must not have a very high bandwidth line.
Uh, I talked to the coordinator here.
She said they use six telephone lines, which, uh, I calculated that's probably about half of a T1 rate.
Uh, uh, for listeners who know what that is.
They're using a, uh, a picture tell, uh, camera and controller.
Uh, and I couldn't make out the brand name, but they have a video encoder and decoder.
And that's all fed into a Motorola, uh, STU-3.
And STU is an acronym for Secure Telecommunications Unit.
Uh, Motorola's STU-3s are, uh, a secure or encrypted, uh, telephone instrument that the federal government uses extensively,
both, uh, uh, in the military and in, uh, uh, other federal government areas.
There, I asked the, uh, coordinator here about the security of this conversation, you know, whether it's, uh, uh, how private it is.
This is attorney, uh, supposedly, uh, a privileged, attorney-client-privileged communication that no one else should be able to listen to.
Right.
It was very secure, and in fact, it was encrypted, and the only keys existed were, uh, one at this end, one at the receiving end, and one in Washington, D.C.
And I said, well, what about the one in Washington, D.C.?
She said, oh, that's just a spare that, uh, they use in case, uh, someone were to lose one of the other keys.
So, uh, I don't know the extent of, uh, whether this is a, uh, video, uh, network or whether this is a direct link.
I, they told me it was a direct link, but I don't know what to believe.
So, I don't know whether my, uh, my conversation was recorded with my attorney or not.
But, uh, it was still a very eerie experience because the, uh, the quality of the video was strange.
Uh, uh, it was, uh, kind of a jerk, jerky movement, and the, uh, there was a lag between the, uh, voice and the, and my attorney's lips.
And it was just, uh, it was just a very odd experience.
And I, I'm, I'm afraid that sometime in the, in the future people will be subjected to this on a, uh, on a compulsory basis.
Right now it's voluntary, but, uh, I can see a day where, uh, uh, you won't have the opportunity to sit in a courtroom.
You'll just stay in, stay in your prison cell and, and have a video conference with the judge and be found guilty.
And you won't even have to leave the confines of your cell.
I hope that doesn't ever happen.
It adds so much to the feeling of isolation, doesn't it?
Certainly, yeah.
You don't even see someone face-to-face.
You have to talk to them over a camera.
That's, uh, that is pretty sad.
Um, Bernie, I'm afraid that, uh, the, the static might knock off your phone line since, uh.
I don't know if that's at this end or your end.
I think that's on our end, uh, because we have a lousy phone system here.
But, uh, in case it does, I'd just like for you to give out the, uh, the address one more time.
Oh, sure.
Uh, uh, my name is Ed Cummings, C-U-M-M-I-N-G-S.
My prisoner number is 4-8-9-1-9-0-6-6.
And the second line in the address is F-C-I, as in Federal Correctional Institution, F-C-I-Fairton, F-A-I-R-T-O-N.
And then that's at P-O-Box 4-2-0.
Uh, and then the letter, the, the words A, the letter A dash left, that's the wing I'm in.
And that's in Fairton, New Jersey, 0-8-3-2-0.
And again, I want to thank all the listeners.
I can't name them all, but there are several listeners who sent me, uh, interesting reading
material, uh, letters of, uh, uh, suggestions and, uh, encouragement.
And that's really gone a long way to help me, uh, maintain my sanity here.
It means a lot, uh, it means a lot to us here, too, to know that our listeners care enough
to, uh, to actually write to somebody.
I have written back as many people as I can, but, uh, it's not always, uh, I'm not always
able to write back everybody, but thank you to everyone who, several people didn't put
a return address in the envelope either, so, uh, thanks anyway.
We, we've set up, uh, an internet service, too, um, for, uh, for Bernie S.
If you want to write to him without having to go to the trouble of putting a stamp on an envelope
or actually writing something with your hand, you can simply type a note and...
I can still hear you.
Yeah, okay, that's good.
Uh, you can type a note and email it to bernies, uh, B-E-R-N-I-E-S, at 2600.com, and then
what we'll do is we'll print all that out and send it to him, and then, uh, he'll be able
to...
Throwing site up now, huh?
Oh, yeah, the site is up.
That's right.
Uh, you've missed a lot.
I've been, uh, really cut off from the rest of the world with the manual.
Yeah, the site has been up for some time, um, and, and that's one way of sending, sending
Bernie S. some, some mail, you know, without having to actually go through the labor.
See if you can send an issue of 2600 magazine.
You're using here by, uh, snail mail.
Yeah.
You're pushing to see if they allow it in.
You know, it's interesting, uh, the, the last issue just went out, and I was away.
I was overseas, so this is the first time that an issue has come out that I have had absolutely,
you know, nothing to do with the sending out of it, and everything was sent out, and,
you know, we forgot to get issues for ourselves back at 2600, so there isn't a single issue
anywhere in 2600, and all...
You'll have to go out to the store and buy one for me.
Everyone else has, has had them sent to them.
Now, fortunately, BAI gets it, so I just walked into the studio, and there's, here's an envelope
here, and what I'm doing right now is I'm pulling it out of the envelope, and this is the first
time I'm going to see it.
Right now, live.
Oh, my God.
Look at this.
Look at that.
That is weird.
What's on the cover?
I never understand the covers.
I really don't.
I think two of us.
Boy, this is, this is weird.
You know, I think you're on the cover in some way.
Uh-oh.
I think, I think you very well might be.
Look at those phones.
Wow, there's some really cool pay phones on the back cover.
If I could get a camera in here, I'd like to send in a picture of a federal prison pay
phone, but, um, I can't get a camera in here.
Yeah, that's going to be a little, um, a little difficult there, but, um, some interesting
pay phones overseas.
You know, uh, we were talking about the whole method of making a pay phone call and making
a phone call before where basically you pay per, uh, per unit, and the units simply go
quicker when you call a long distance, so you could call overseas for like 10 cents for
10 seconds, and it's, uh, it just makes things a little easier.
Uh, I understand, um, they're going to be, Mercury was a company in England that, uh, that
had some, some pay phones, but they only use cards, and for some reason, it just didn't
catch on.
They're pulling out of the business, but this Italian company is, uh, moving in and taking
over their old kiosks.
Uh, it's, uh, it's called IPM, and they're going to be basically allowing, um, coin-only
phones.
Um, and they'll be able to put in five-cent pieces, which currently British Telecom does
not accept.
Uh, same rates, except they'll be able to put in, uh, uh, smaller amounts of money.
We have a system here, uh, in the federal prison now where, uh, uh, every inmate has,
carries around a, uh, photo ID card with a magnetic stripe, uh, with their, uh, their credits
encoded on the back of it, and those credits are used for telephone calls and for purchasing,
uh, goods at the, uh, at the prison store or commissary.
Yeah.
And, uh, uh, I won't go into the details about the magnetic, uh, stripe, but I've, I've looked
at it.
Yeah, everyone's got their own little system that they're, that they're working on.
You know, British Telecom is so annoying, too.
They always have these little catty remarks.
Um, British Telecom spokesman said, we welcome competition.
We hope they do better than our last competitor.
So, um, we'll, we'll see how that works.
Also doing stuff with virtual cash.
Um, I'll read you a couple of paragraphs of this article.
We've got a one-minute warning, so we may get cut off any minute.
Okay.
And I won't be able to call back because someone else needs to use the phone.
Okay.
We have, uh, we have about 45 seconds left.
Okay.
Well, uh, we'll, we'll give you those 45 seconds since, um, you know, if there's anything else
you want to say.
Hey, frankly, uh, I'll, uh, say hi to Fiber if he's still there.
Hello, Fiber.
Hey.
Ed, how are you?
Good.
Uh, any, uh, uh, I wanted to ask you a quick question there.
Uh, when you, uh, uh, when you finally ended up, uh, uh, making a deal, I guess, uh, with
a devil, as it were, um, did you feel that that was really your only, uh, only viable
option at the time?
It was really backed into a corner.
And at the time, yeah, I did feel it was my only, only viable option.
Um, cause I, I may too be backed into such a, such a corner.
I, it's, it's, my principles tell me not to, uh, not to plead anything, uh, but, uh, um,
when they hold these, uh, this outrage.
Oh boy.
I sure wish he hadn't been cut off at that point.
Yeah.
You know, if, if anybody should, uh, should fight this thing to the end, it's, it's Bernie
has because he hasn't done anything at all.
He possessed technology, he had it, he had, you know, uh, uh, a, a tone dialer in his,
in his pocket that could make beeps, you know, that's, that's what he did.
Utterly ridiculous.
Um, but, uh, you want, you want to take a stab at answering that, uh, even though he's not
here to hear the answer?
Yeah.
I mean, uh, what it really boiled down to in my case was, uh, selecting from the lesser
of two evils.
And, uh, even though I had a really hard time in, uh, pleading guilty, it was really
the only way out.
It was, uh, either putting my whole entire future on the line and hoping that, uh, a
jury of 12 people was going to understand everything about the case and say, well, uh, okay, we
shouldn't give them between five and 10 years and fine them, uh, upwards from a quarter of
a million dollars.
You know what I mean?
So it was either going to trial and losing and facing that or, uh, pleading guilty and,
uh, having to deal with, uh, doing anywhere from, uh, whatever it was, uh, I believe it
was 12 to 15 months.
Uh-huh.
So, uh, I mean, that's the choice I had to make, uh, go to prison or go to prison longer.
Right.
So I chose go to prison for a shorter amount of time.
It's just, it's just unbelievable that, uh, he would even have to make a choice like this,
though.
You know, it's so obviously wrong what's happening to him.
It's just a question of getting people to hear that, you know, and, and, and parallel it
to other things that maybe they can understand.
Um, anyway, so, uh, if you want to write to him, uh, uh, electronically, Bernie S at 2600.com
and, uh, we will forward that to him.
Um, okay, let's, uh, I want to take some phone calls.
Let's quickly move through what we, uh, what we have here.
As far as the virtual cash, yeah, this is happening in, uh, in England.
A Swindon, a Swindon newspaper seller made history the other day when he became the first
person in Britain to accept electronic cash instead of coins.
Don Stanley, age 72, sold a 28 pence newspaper to a customer using the Mondex cash card.
The Cacher Society moved a step closer when Swindon on the high-tech M4 corridor, uh, which
is a highway, by the way, kicked off the electronic cash payment card backed by Midland and NatWest
banks.
The scheme uses smart card technology, which allows users to download money from their bank
accounts onto the card's microchip.
Once the virtual cash has been stored on the card's memory, customers can use it in participating
outlets, which debit payments from the card's chip through their retailer terminals.
Unlike credit or debit cards, customers who use Mondex do not have to sign a voucher.
Retailers will not need authorization because there is no chance of incurring debt.
The customer can only spend the amount loaded on the card.
Uh, British Telecom, which has also been involved in the launch, has produced telephones with card
slots, uh, which enable Mondex customers to download money from their bank via a telephone
line.
Um, and, uh, BT is to adapt 300 public Mondex screen phones around Swindon, and card holders
will be able to buy special phones for domestic use.
Um, interesting that they're actually going through with things like this.
And, um, I'd like to see what the security vulnerabilities will be.
Any ideas what they might be?
With, uh, with smart card technology, it's hard to say.
I remember, uh, reading, uh, a number of things about possibly tricking the smart card into,
uh, being able to read the contents, although, uh, the whole security of the card lies in
that very fact that you can't access the contents.
Uh-huh.
So, I mean, that, that, that's really where the strength would lie, is how well-engineered
the technology is.
Well, I think we'll, we'll soon see how well-engineered the whole thing is.
We'll be updating people on that as, uh, as it progresses.
Also, a very interesting piece in yesterday's New York Times, uh, entitled University to
Display Tobacco Documents, has to do with these, um, these documents that the tobacco
industry concealed, uh, which basically, um, uh, proved that they had knowledge of the
addictive nature of nicotine and other harmful effects of smoking.
Um, as far back as 30 years ago.
Now, what's particularly interesting about this and how it relates to us is the fact
that all of this has now been put up on a website, and it's interesting because it,
it, it demonstrates very clearly the fact that, um, that you don't, you know, if you
have your Pentagon Papers, you know, you don't need to, uh, to have a newspaper to release
them.
You know, if the Pentagon Papers happened today, which, which basically happened 24 years
ago, you would not need the Washington Post or any newspaper to, to release them.
All you would need is the internet.
And that's got to be one of the reasons why some people are very, very afraid.
You know, uh, I'll read a paragraph here.
Although the Times and other papers published articles about the content of the documents,
the growth of the internet has made it possible to leak sensitive materials without the help
of the news media.
If Daniel Ellsberg were to have come into possession of the Pentagon Papers today, he would not need
to find a newspaper to publish them.
If you want to look at these documents, get on the web.
Here's the address, http, colon, double slash, www.library.ucsf.edu slash tobacco.
And, uh, ought to be some very interesting things to look at over there.
Okay, uh, I've looked through the issue as I've been talking, and, um, I'm pleased with it.
Looks pretty good.
The summer issue of 2600 Magazine is out, and, well, Fiber, we'll be seeing you later?
Uh, yeah, hopefully.
I should be meeting you guys.
Okay.
I guess we'll be wandering down to the At Cafe, which is our kind of after-show hangout.
So, uh, if anybody wants to wander down there and, uh, talk to the hackers, I guess that's
one way to do it.
Another way to do it is to, um, come to the 2600 meeting this Friday at the City Core Center
between 5 and 8, and, um, that's, uh, happening as it does the first Friday of every month.
You know, one of the things, you know, when you go over to a foreign country, it's, it's
the little things, you know?
The little things like putting mayo on the fries and, uh, the, the, you know, Le Big Macs
and, uh, Royales with cheese and things like that, but, you know, one of the little things
are candy bars, and I noticed this when I went over there.
Actually, a bunch of people noticed this.
First of all, you know, Twix bars?
You ever have a Twix bar?
Sure.
Well, they used to be called Raiders over there.
Just Raider.
It would say Raider the same way it says Twix over here.
Now they've changed that.
It's Twix over there now, too.
But they still call them Raiders, even though they're really Twix.
I don't know.
But you buy a Mars bar over there, right?
You expect a Mars bar.
Now, Fiber, you're, you're at your home.
Yes, I am.
But I, I was over there before, and I, I gave you one of these and instructed you to put
it in the refrigerator and take it out during the show.
Okay?
Now, I've got some people here.
I'm going to hand out some Mars bars to them.
Here's one.
Okay?
There's one for you.
And, uh, there's one for you and one for you.
Oh, sorry.
I didn't mean to hit you in the head.
Okay.
Now, I'd like everybody to open up their, their Mars bar now.
Do you have yours, Fiber?
I'm all ready.
Okay.
Now, let's take a good look at it anyway.
It's not a Snickers bar.
It's not a Snickers bar.
This, my friends, this Mars bar is a Milky Way.
Do we have consensus on this?
This is, in fact, a Milky Way.
That is a Milky Way.
Okay.
You know that.
Mars bars have almonds in them.
That's right.
Now, this is not a Mars bar by our definition.
This Mars bar is actually a Milky Way.
Now, not to be outdone, I also went out and I bought Milky Ways.
Now, you should have a Milky Way in your refrigerator, too.
Do you?
Yes, I do.
Okay.
Now, I'm going to pitch over some Milky Ways to you guys.
Here you go.
There you go.
There you go.
Oops.
Sorry about that.
And there you go.
Now, I don't know what these things are.
If anybody can help me out here, let's describe the inside of these things to people.
These are not Mars bars and they're certainly not Milky Ways.
They kind of remind me of a Charleston chew.
I know what it is.
Okay.
I knew you would somehow.
I knew you'd be able to figure this one out.
What is this?
The closest thing that this can be related to is a Three Musketeers, only it has vanilla
nougat instead of chocolate nougat.
Wow.
What are they trying to do?
It's definitely not a Milky Way.
That's unbelievable.
It's not a Milky Way.
It's not a Mars.
And a Mars is definitely a Milky Way.
I mean, how can they do this?
How can they market different things?
You know, I saw a film over there in England and they do things differently there.
They show commercials before the film and everybody comes in to watch the commercials.
And one of the commercials was this thing that they have for, I think it's Mountain Dew.
I forget what exactly it is.
It involves old ladies commenting on people as they're motorcycling off cliffs or something
crazy like that.
And it's a Mountain Dew commercial, except over there, it's a commercial for Pepsi Max,
which is something we don't have over here.
Pepsi Max is like low-calorie Pepsi.
But they're advertising a different product with the same slogan.
I mean, doesn't that sort of take away the whole point of advertising in the first place?
You know, you kind of recognize something based on what it does, and yet they're saying
something else is equal to it for the same reasons.
I don't know.
I just thought that was kind of weird.
Okay.
So you think this is a what?
It's the closest thing that it appears to be like is a Three Musketeers, only a Three
Musketeers has chocolate nougat, and this has vanilla nougat.
So vanilla Three Musketeers.
What do you guys think of that?
Any comment?
You think it's a Three Musketeers?
Definitely.
Three Musketeers.
Okay.
All right.
We're going to do some more research on this.
We're going to take some phone calls.
Not very many because we're almost out of time.
212-279-3400.
Sorry about the delay getting to the phones, but we had a lot to catch up on.
I also want to read a letter really quickly.
You know what?
I think I'll read this letter next week.
Yeah, because I was going to talk about then.
It's a good letter, though.
Actually, a couple of good letters.
Let's quickly go to the phones, see who's out there.
And good evening.
You're on the air.
Oh, hi, Emmanuel.
How do you do it?
How do you always manage to be first?
Well, calling from my new place here.
Where's your new place?
My new place is right down the block from my old place.
I just moved out of my parents' house.
Wait a minute.
Do you mean you're not upstate anymore?
No, I'm home.
I've been home for a couple months now.
Oh, boy.
You're right back here in the latter, huh?
Right.
And I just moved into my own place, my own phone, my own computer, my own internet.
Because we haven't been taking very many calls, we have to make it very quick.
Okay.
I just wanted to know.
You knew the 9X payphones with the voice inside that says no additional dialing allowed?
There's a new payphone.
It's called Smartphone.
Uh-oh.
Whenever something that 9X puts out has Smart in front of it, I know it's going to be a problem.
Well, it goes...
Like an IntelliDial.
When you dial an 800 number or any number, and you try and press touch tones again, it says no additional dialing allowed.
That's something.
Can you tell us where we can find a phone like this?
You can find them...
Well, they're in Queens in my neighborhood here.
Uh-huh.
What do they look like?
They're regular 9X payphones, but they're just modified inside with an electronic circuit that has this...
I don't know if it's this voice, it's this digital voice or something.
I don't know.
I wish I had a recording to play you.
Uh-huh.
But you could use a tone dialer and circumvent it that way.
Well, that's true, but you shouldn't have to, especially with a 9X phone.
Right.
Anyway, listen, we've got to move on because we only have like two minutes.
Okay.
Why do exchanges have flaws?
In other words, when you...
You didn't hear anything I said, did you?
We have to move on.
Oh, well...
We'll see you at the meeting on Friday.
...718-359-exchange.
Uh-huh.
It lets you call the 718-747-exchange for free.
And I try to report this because every 718-359-payphone lets you call the 718-747-exchange.
Well, we have to put a stop to such injustices, I know.
But listen, we don't have time to do it right now.
Let's go on to a couple more phone calls, hopefully.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Okay.
We can't have long pauses like that.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Nice.
We can't do that.
We have to have people.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Good evening.
Is it me?
What am I doing wrong?
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Yes.
Hi.
Oh, good.
I'm glad somebody's there.
Hallelujah.
Okay.
I got two quick questions for you.
One is, when you had the fundraiser, you mentioned Blue Box.
What is that?
A Blue Box is a device which can be used or could be used in the past to route phone calls
in specific ways using the actual nitty-gritty of the phone network.
You know, you would use your KP and MF tones to route things out through different operators,
for instance.
You know, you get an inward operator in a different country.
You can do whatever an operator could do using a Blue Box.
That was back before out-of-band signaling where the tones went a different way.
You know, the tones would be passed along the same voice path as the conversation so you
could actually do something like that.
Oh, that was...
You'd seize a long-distance line.
I'm almost useless now, then.
Yeah, pretty much.
You'd seize a long-distance line using a 2600 Hz tone, and then you'd be able to route
things and usually bypass the billing computer in the process, which only added to the fun.
Anyway, we have time for one more phone call.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
No, thanks for my call.
Listen, I got a question.
I got a beef about these Cocot phones all over the city.
Okay.
They're not allowing toll-free calls, 800 calls.
Why is...
I thought they had to allow that.
They do.
They absolutely do.
And if they're in New York, report it to the Public Service Commission, and if they don't
fix it, keep reporting it because the Public Service Commission needs a fire lit under them.
They're out in the sidewalk.
They allow...
You know, they're close to the sidewalk.
They allow toll-free calls.
The phones that are close to the walls of the building, you know what I mean?
Yeah, they're Cocots.
But, you know, 9X does the same thing with their yellow phones, and they have to be reported
as well.
I told the call from those either, but none of those phones that are close to the walls
of the Cocots are allowing 800 calls anymore, and I'm really pissed off.
Yeah, well, you should be, and you should report it and...
Report every...
Report it frequently.
All right.
Become a real pain, and, you know, and get other people to do it, too, and it's the only
way it's going to be fixed.
So, in other words, they have to by law, right?
They do.
Yes, absolutely.
It's an 800 call, you know?
And it says, this is an illegal call.
This is a...
Well, they don't say that, but, yeah, I know what you're talking about.
I'm still recording, and it's disgusting.
Yeah, listen, we're out of time.
All right, ciao, man.
Thanks very much.
Bye.
And that's going to do it for us tonight.
I'll be back again next week.
We'll take more phone calls then and update people on some other things going on.
Again, hacker meeting this Friday, CityCorp Center, 5 p.m. to 8 p.m.
Maybe we'll see you there, maybe not.
Stay tuned for the WBAI Evening News coming up right after this.
We'll be back again next week.
Good night.
The telephone keeps ringing
So I ripped it off the wall
I cut myself while shaving
Now I can't make a call
It couldn't get much worse
But if they could, they would
Bum-Digley-Bum
But I best expect the worst
I hope they've understood
Bum-Digley-Bum
Bum-Digley-Bum
Bum-Digley-Bum
Let's go
Bum-Digley-Bum
Let's go
Bum-Digley-Bum
You
Bum-Digley-Bum