four and more for miles davis miles davis biographer quincy troop a carrier of incandescent dreams
this blade-thin shadow man jagged by lightning crystal silhouette prowling over blue stain he
always heard in the middle register rather than the upper register until later he started hearing
and he used to ask dizzy how come i can't play like you he said how come i can't play like you
and he said you do play like me only you play it in the lower register and so but everybody in the east
was everybody in the east was used to that high trumpet lick car horns that kind of thing so it's
a way of hearing miles join mr troop along with musicians max roach reggie workman and a plethora
of other voices as we here at wbai celebrate a master musician miles davis in a 12-hour membership
drive special sunday september 24th from one in the afternoon to one in the morning
only over wbai new york 99.5 fm
and a very good evening to everybody this is not the personal computer show as you may have guessed
it's a special edition of off the hook off the hook being the program about hackers technology
privacy big brother that kind of thing which usually comes your way every wednesday night at 10 o'clock
and you know what it will be coming your way next wednesday night at 10 o'clock
but after that there's going to be some changes stay tuned
the telephone keeps ringing so i ripped it off the wall
i cut myself while shaving now i can't make a call
it couldn't get much worse but if they could they would
bumping me bump for the best expect the worst
i hope the fun is good
bumping me bow
port in the sowing
man
man
man
fool
Santa
man
is
ch
love
child
and
mom
And a very good evening, everybody.
This is Emanuel Goldstein. Program's Off the Hook.
And we're here for three hours tonight.
I think we're here for three hours.
We're either here for two hours or three hours.
We're going to find out for sure one way or another.
But we've got some very special things to come your way.
We've got some announcements, some changes, some scary stuff, too.
All kinds of things to look forward to.
So stay tuned.
We also have a couple of packages that I think will be unique.
Let's put it that way.
Our number is 212-279-3400.
Of course, we appreciate any pledge that people will call in and donate right off the bat.
But if you want to stick around for a few minutes and see what it is that we actually have to offer in exchange for this,
we'll be announcing that in just a minute or two.
And we're going to be playing some material related to the Hacker's movie, which just came out.
So if you're one of the people that have seen that, please stay tuned.
You'll find that very interesting.
And hopefully, if we get enough pledges and if we're on schedule, we'll be able to take some phone calls from people about the film,
see how many people have actually seen it and what their feelings on it are.
So stay tuned.
The program is off the hook.
Your pledges are accepted at 212-279-3400.
Okay, one person called.
That's good enough.
That makes me happy to know there's at least one person out there that cares enough to call and pledge support to this radio station and to off the hook.
212-279-3400.
Now, let's cover the most important thing first.
The future of this particular radio program is going to change.
That's right.
Usually, we're on Wednesday nights at 10 p.m.
And we're going to be on next Wednesday night at 10 p.m.
But the week after that, we're going to be moving to Tuesday nights at 8 p.m.
That's right.
Tuesday at 8 p.m. is the new time for off the hook starting October 3rd.
So if you have lives to plan, you might want to make some changes now as far as work schedules, school schedules, sleeping schedules, things like that.
A little bit earlier, two hours earlier and a different day.
Tuesday is 8 p.m. starting October 3rd.
So tell your friends, tell your neighbors, tell the feds, tell everybody, because I'm sure they'll all want to know about it.
We have some news regarding Bernie S., who will not be calling us tonight.
He is actually, he's got a very big day tomorrow.
Last we checked, which was two weeks ago, the trial was about to begin.
And Bernie S. was ready to defend himself against the charges that had put him in prison since last March with no bail.
Well, what has wound up happening is that, I guess the best way to phrase it is to use Bernie S.'s own words himself.
He was forced to make a deal with the devil and plead guilty.
Yeah, it's unfortunate, but the way the law is worded, the way this particular statute currently reads,
anybody who possesses a certain amount of technology which can be used, doesn't have to be used in a particular way,
but if it can be used in that way, such as software, hardware, or something which can make five little beeps into a payphone,
if you have something on you or in your possession or in your home that can do that, technically you are guilty.
Now, the odds of convincing a jury that you are not guilty of something like that,
when they don't even understand what the technology is in the first place,
well, the odds seemed rather dim at that particular point in time.
Also, there was the case which was mentioned here two weeks ago,
where the federal government had brought up this kind of weird piece of evidence that they had found.
They say they found phone numbers on a disk which had been linked to cellular fraud in California.
Now, what we're talking about here is a commercially available disk that had some phone numbers in some sort of a database,
which Bernie S. had no control over or no knowledge of.
He just happened to have the disk as well as thousands of other people in the country had the same disk.
So, they were going to use this and try and charge him with committing cellular fraud in a distant state,
which he had never been in, which he had never had anything to do with.
Again, the odds of a jury understanding this appeared very dim.
The disadvantages to going before a jury and being found guilty
very much outweigh the disadvantages of pleading guilty in the first place.
By pleading guilty at this point, Bernie S. is up for sentencing tomorrow.
In all likelihood, he will be sentenced to something like either zero to six months in prison
or two to eight months in prison.
Since he has already been in prison for six months,
there is hopefully a very good chance he will be free tomorrow.
Now, a lot of people, of course, are wringing their hands in despair,
saying, oh, no, what does this mean?
Well, it's good and bad.
Of course, it's good for Bernie, who I think has paid enough for this particular ridiculous law
that has somehow been passed without any objections from any of our civil liberties groups.
He's brought attention to this law.
We all know about it now.
And we all know that every single one of us is in danger
because virtually anything that we have on our possession can be used in some way
to defraud the phone company.
Our voices, our brains, but more importantly,
any particular piece of technology that we happen to be carrying around with us
that might be programmed to admit the wrong tones, that could be used.
You could be held without bail.
This case was also significant in that they went into his home,
they seized his books, they analyzed his books,
and tried to paint the picture of some sort of a terrorist because of his reading material,
very Fahrenheit 451-ish.
Also, there were numerous instances of his rights being violated in other ways,
assumptions being made as to what kind of a person he was,
simply based on things as innocuous as a list of secret service frequencies,
something that we've published in 2600 many, many times.
By having this in his possession, all of a sudden,
hey, you have an interest in the secret service,
that means that you must be a terrorist, you must be out to get somebody.
And by saying this to a judge,
they were actually able to convince this judge that this person
had some sort of a, posed some sort of a threat to society.
Imagine what could have been done with a jury.
It's very sad to think this way, but it happens to be the case that he really didn't have a choice.
And I think most of us probably would have done the same thing.
It's bad for everybody else, obviously, because this law still remains,
and any one of us could be picked up in the next day or so because of this.
And it's something that has to be changed, something we have to bring attention to.
So hopefully we'll do that here on the radio.
Hopefully we've been doing that here.
It needs to keep going.
Actually, Bernie S. is not stopping there.
He's pleading under what is known as the Zoodik plea,
which allows you to plead guilty yet at the same time challenge
the constitutionality of the law that you are guilty of violating.
And since, in all likelihood, he will be free tomorrow or over the next couple of days,
he will be able to actually fight this thing with some resources at his disposal.
So there's an advantage to being free for that particular fight as well.
But he's going to need help.
He's going to need support and publicity to a degree to get the word out of just what exactly it is
that's happening here and what has happened here.
We can't let this just go by.
Anyway, there have been other cases over the past week or so of Secret Service raids
going on over the nation, actually, all throughout the nation.
And these, again, center on cellular, alleged cellular fraud,
although I've heard all kinds of differing stories to what it was actually that they were looking for.
In one case in particular, they raided one person because he had sold an ESN reader,
an electronic serial number of cellular phones transmitted through the airwaves.
If you have a particular receiver, you can see what those numbers are.
And that's really all it does.
It tells you what the numbers are that are being transmitted in the clear.
You can buy these ESN readers from catalogs for, I guess, up to $1,000 or so.
What this person had done, his crime was buying one, which isn't a crime, by the way,
and then reselling it to somebody else, I believe, at a 2600 meeting.
And by doing that, somehow, in the eyes of the Secret Service, that makes him guilty of a crime.
It's awfully bizarre.
But they were able to convince the judge to hold him on $100,000 bail.
They later got that knocked down at the $25,000.
It just gets crazier and crazier.
It also turns out that there was one person who had been coming to the meetings
and had been making himself rather well-known in the hacker world, to some people anyway,
who had been working with the Secret Service for over a year and a half
to try and get people to commit crimes and things like that.
What's particularly disturbing about this is that at the hacker conference known as SummerCon,
which took place in Atlanta,
this person was filming a, quote-unquote, hacker documentary.
And so all the hackers, all the people that wanted to be free and open and tell their story,
they put their faces on camera.
And you know what?
The whole thing was a Secret Service operation.
That's right.
The Secret Service went down to a hacker conference and filmed everybody
and had people willingly come up to them and tell them who they were
and what kinds of things they did and what their secrets were and things like that
because, hey, we thought it was an independent filmmaker.
So that's the kind of tactics we're dealing with here
where people are constantly trying to get us to slip up and break the law
and become criminals and things like that.
And, you know, a lot of people just are resisting that kind of push.
We don't believe we're doing anything in the criminal nature.
We believe we're exploring technology and playing with tools and figuring things out
and just basically being curious explorers.
I know that worries a lot of people, but, hey, that's just too bad.
It's not going to stop.
It can lock up 100 people, but it's not going to quell curiosity.
Not enough people that are really curious anyway.
That's what we've been dealing with over the past couple of weeks,
and we may have some more details coming in later on.
Okay, so enough about that.
So we have the program moving times in two weeks, Tuesday 8 p.m.
and we have increased surveillance and people pleading guilty and being sentenced.
Again, Bernie S. is being sentenced tomorrow.
We will have the results of that posted on the Internet site,
which by fingering Bernie S. at 2600.com, you will get the information,
or by mailing to him, you will get it sent back to you as well.
And as soon as we learn something, we will put it up on the site.
That's really the best we can do.
So hopefully there won't be a need anymore to write to Bernie S.,
because hopefully he won't be in prison after tomorrow,
but finger the site and we'll see if he still is after tomorrow.
In any event, we still have one other hacker that, at least one other hacker,
who is in prison that needs support, and that is Kevin Mitnick.
You can write to him by emailing to Kevin Mitnick, actually Kmitnick,
K-M-I-T-N-I-C-K at 2600.com.
And remember 2600 is numerically spelled 2600.
Now then, concerning, we're going to have a few packages tonight,
but the basic package right now, okay, the basic package,
the one we're going to start off with, for those of you that care about the program,
want to support it, and I know there's a lot of people out there,
because I hear from you all the time, this is the time that we need your help.
Whatever you can afford to pledge obviously makes a difference,
but if you pledge, I believe the amount is $75, you'll get a brand new,
and I don't mean the old T-shirts that we had before, I mean the brand new ones,
with the Michelangelo virus, all of it, on the front of T-shirts.
Imagine having a computer virus on your T-shirt.
That'll cause some controversy for sure.
For a $75 pledge, you'll get one of those,
as well as a bunch of current newspaper clippings on the back,
with all kinds of hacker news and hacker folklore and things like that.
You'll get that in addition to the WBAI folio,
which tells you what's on the radio at any time,
and you'll also get the knowledge of knowing that you're helping out this radio program
and this radio station, 212-279-3400.
Again, that's our first offer here tonight.
We're going to have several different packages, but that's the first one.
It's a kind of exclusive thing right now,
because virtually nobody has these ones.
Nobody has the Michelangelo virus on the T-shirt yet.
So give us a call, 212-279-3400.
Show your support for free radio and for free ideas.
For curiosity and things like that.
Now, the next thing we're going to be doing
is dealing a little bit with the film Hackers,
which just came out over the weekend.
That actually came out last Friday.
And I'm sure a lot of people out there have seen it.
Hopefully, if we're on at 11 o'clock,
we'll start taking some phone calls then,
as far as what people's reactions are.
But if you really want some historical perspective here,
what we're going to be doing tonight
is playing excerpts from the HOPE conference last year,
where we had the author of Hackers,
we had the director of Hackers,
we also had the producer of Hackers,
all on one panel,
as well as three other people.
Paul Tuff from Harper's Magazine,
as well as Wynne Schwartow,
who is an author and has written some things
that have gotten attention in the hacker world,
and Julian DeBell from the Village Voice,
who has written many articles about Hackers as well.
All of that we'll be excerpting tonight,
but that's also available to you.
This is our second deal here, okay?
I told you there's going to be more than one.
Our second deal, for a pledge of $150,
this is our special hacker package,
where you get not only the brand new Hacker t-shirt
with the Michelangelo virus scrawled down the front,
which if you're really kind of cautious,
you can wear a shirt over it so people don't see that,
but in addition to that,
you'll get the entire video
of this Hackers authors panel,
authors, I don't know what you would call it really,
authors about hacking, or hacker authors.
They're not hackers.
They're people that write about hacking.
They're people that put out films.
They're people that put out newspaper articles
and magazine articles and things like that,
and they talk on the video for, I guess,
about an hour and a half or so
about what hacking is to them,
what they see,
what advice they would give to hackers
to get their word out,
to get a positive feeling.
And you'll hear excerpts of that tonight,
but if you want the whole thing,
including questions and answers,
some pretty bizarre questions and answers,
as well as, of course, the video,
which you don't see on the radio,
then that will be part of that package for $150.
That's not all.
Wait, don't go to your phones yet.
We have the t-shirt.
We have the video.
But in addition to that,
we have a full one-year subscription
of 2600 magazine,
The Hacker Quarterly.
That's right.
The magazine that dares to be different, I guess,
and that gets into so much trouble
over the past 11 years or so
that we were in USA Today last week.
I mean, that was kind of weird.
Never thought I'd see 2600 there.
But it has gotten a lot of attention.
You can have it sent to your home
or your P.O. box
or wherever it is that you want it sent to
in a plain brown envelope, by the way.
I know people are concerned about that.
For a period of one year,
that's four quarterly issues.
And you'll be the first on your blog
to get all kinds of juicy information
as it happens.
And also the latest on various hacker developments
going on throughout the planet.
And there are quite a few things happening
around the world.
So, for a pledge of $150,
you'll get not only the 2600 t-shirt,
the brand new 2600 t-shirt
with the Michelangelo virus,
you'll get a full year subscription
of 2600 magazine,
and the video of the author's panel
at the Hackers on Planet Earth conference
last year,
which we're going to be excerpting
starting in a couple of minutes.
Again, the number is 212-279-3400.
I should also point out, though,
that any pledge will help.
I mean, these are things that we offer you
because we want to donate something
to the station as well.
So, we're sort of taking this out of our own pockets here
and giving it to the station to give to you.
But if you just want to be generous
and donate something,
say $25 or $50 or whatever it is
that you can afford,
please call anyway,
212-279-3400
because every little bit helps
and every little bit will get us to the stage
where it makes a difference.
So, let's get those phone lines lit.
212-279-3400.
We're going to start the author's panel
of the Hackers on Planet Earth conference.
Now, we'll be starting,
I think there's an introduction,
and then we'll be hearing from Julian DeBell
of The Village Voice.
That will be followed by Paul Tuff of Harper's
and Wynne Schwartow,
who put out a book called
Information Warfare and Terminal Compromise.
And then we'll be getting to the Hackers film people.
So, we'll be hearing all that in just,
I guess, right now.
212-279-3400.
Please give us a call.
Now, by the way,
this is coming to you over MidiDisc,
which is a fairly new technology.
This is the author seminar.
People who have written or are writing
about hackers in various matters
or hacking or technology
or various things like that.
Program update.
The cellular conference is in jeopardy right now.
It seems that a hard drive is missing
that has the vital program on it.
So, if anybody knows anything about that,
please get Dr. Fermi S.
He's starting his hair out of the room right now.
Looks like we have the band taken here.
We're going to get the thing started
and cruise around the city
and show people
what a hacker band looks like.
It's raining really hard in Woodstock,
from what I hear.
It's also raining pretty hard here.
Alright, we have with us today
from my left to right,
to your right and left in the gas,
Julian DeValle,
author,
renowned author for
The Voice,
Bill's Voice,
Spin Magazine,
and I'm sure many other things
in the future.
Paul Tuff,
always grateful for
Harper's Esquire.
Rich Wartell,
author of Terminal Compromise.
And what's this one?
Paul Tuff.
I do not do
cheap brass commercial
to love to buy
information.
He is the writer
of a brand new film
which is being filmed
in New York City
this summer.
It's called Hackers.
And guess what it's about?
It's going to be
quite an interesting
experience.
And this is a good opportunity
for some of you
to give feedback
to the people
making this film
before they actually
make it.
And I also think
I'm going to hear
from you guys
for various things.
We also have
Michael Iser,
producer of that film.
And if I'm not mistaken,
you're also executive producer
of Desperately Seeking Susan.
Yeah, we filmed
on the 17th floor
of the first scenes
of that movie
we shot in this hotel.
The last time I was here.
It's a horror film.
And speeding by cab
on his way over here
right now
is Ian Softley
who is the director
of this film.
You may know
Ian Softley
as the director,
writing, and producer
of Backbeat.
So he will be here
fairly soon, I guess.
So basically
what we're going
to be doing here
is talking about
the experience
of writing
about hackers.
We'll start with
what Julian has written
in the past
articles about
various New York City
based hackers.
And then we'll move on
to everybody else
who has touched
upon the subject
in various ways.
Basically,
what are the challenges
dealing with people
like us?
Are we easy
to talk to?
Are we hard
to put into words?
What kind
of adventures
and things
have you guys
been through
putting our antics
to paper?
And of course
we open up the floor
and any questions
that people out
there will have
for these people
and take it
away, Julian.
Eric sent
all of us
a list of questions
we might want
to be dealing
with here
and over the net
a few days ago.
And he was
the son,
I'll just read
him here.
He's supposed to be
what we're going
to be talking
about is
how writer
such as
yourself
perceive hackers,
what is unique
about them,
see what makes
writing about them
especially challenging
and also
how do you respond
to those critics
who claim that
writers are just
cashing in on
hackers and stuff
like that.
I'll start
with the last
question first.
Just to point out
that anybody
here thinks
that we're getting
rich writing
on hackers
and smoking
some of our
fine crack
here in
that
it's
you know
cashing in
is what you
do when you
write about
you know
and Woodstock
but
anyway
the question
about
what is
challenging
about writing
about hackers
and let me be
specific.
what I've
written about
in terms of
hackers
is not so
much
technological
stuff
but what's
interested me
about hackers
and freakers
is
hacking and
freaking
as a subculture.
That's where
I came from.
I started out
writing
about
I started out
writing music
criticism
and I became
increasingly
disinterested
with that
and convinced
that what was
really exciting
in terms of
subcultural
activity
in my
generation
was
cultures
that were
being created
around technology
and specifically
around hacking
and freaking
and
so
but once I
got to know
the culture
a little better
the
problematic
that I
dealt with
in writing
about
hackers
was walking
that fine
line
between
making a
case
for the
right
of this
subculture
to exist
and
presenting
the subculture
as it really
is.
Now
you know
I would
like to
you know
you all
know
that
hackers
are
all
love
their
mothers
and
are
wonderful
people
and
you know
but
that's not
really the
case
I mean
hackers
are human
beings
like
everybody
else
but the
problem
is
writing
about
them
takes
place
within
a
general
atmosphere
of
total
misunderstanding
and
fear
and
terror
and
so
to
write
the
subculture
as it
really
is
is
problematic
because
you'll
just be
feeding
into
these
prejudices
against
them
and
you
won't
really
make
the
case
for
this
subculture
to exist
now
I
believe
that
this
subculture
has a
right
to
exist
and
needs
to
exist
because
I'm
interested
in
for one
thing
some
of the
political
implications
of
the
subculture
the
desire
to
break
through
corporate
barriers
and
through
information
hierarchies
and
sort of
loosen up
the controls
on information
that are being
implemented
in this
increasingly
information-based
society
and economy
but
you know
hackers
aren't
generally
as interested
in these
political
questions
as some
of us
journalists
are
and some
of you
are here
tonight
but
you know
nonetheless
for those
reasons
I think
it's
important
for this
subculture
to exist
so
you know
what I
do
is a
kind of
advocacy
journalism
for
the hacker
subculture
I try
to present
it
you know
as
accurately
as possible
but when
it comes
down to
it
I'm
making
a choice
to be
hacker
sympathetic
or
not necessarily
pro-hacker
but at least
to present
them
in the best
light
that I
can
I make
this point
just because
I hear
a lot
you know
there's a lot
of suspicion
of the media
in the
in the
hack creek
community
and rightfully
so
but there is
a kind of
attitude
that like
you know
why don't
they just
present us
the way
we are
man
and
and it's
not
you know
it's difficult
I mean
if we present
you warts
and all
you know
and just
do a straight
presentation
people are
out there
with all
these prejudices
against
hacking
and freaks
and they're
just going
to read
into that
what their
prejudices
are already
so we have
to make
a case
for that
and
that also
puts a
burden
on you
all
to also
make the
case
for yourself
and not
just sit
there
and just
spew out
information
on the one
hand
just spew out
information
to any
media rep
that comes
along
or on the
other hand
totally not
talk to any
media rep
that comes
along
this kind
of dichotomy
we were
just talking
about this
now
on the one
hand
there's this
real dogmatic
oh the media
are all liars
and scumbags
and on the
other hand
you know
there's the
case of
you know
hackers
who will
just
spew out
all kinds
of incriminating
information
to
you know
reporters
they've never
talked to
they've never
seen before
they don't even
necessarily know
that they're
really reporters
and they'll
just spew
for hours
you know
well I did
this and
this and that
and you
know
you have to
develop a
more savvy
attitude
towards
dealing with
the press
not just
on the one
hand
that they're
all
creeps
and trying
to cash
in
ha ha ha
or on the
other hand
that you know
you can just
present the
information
and once
the information
gets out
there
then everybody
will know
what a wonderful
thing hacking
and freaking
is and how
wonderful
you people
are
and you know
your right
to exist
will be
guaranteed
for life
you got to
develop a
kind of
savvy
you got to
develop a
kind of
political
attitude
about it
making
making you
know
making a
case for
yourselves
I don't
want to go
on too
long
I'll pass
the mic
and then
we'll have
questions
afterwards
okay that
was Julian
DeBell
speaking at
the Hope
Conference
last August
a year ago
last August
next we'll be
hearing from
Paul Tuff
of Harper's
Magazine
but we just
wanted to
butt in here
for a second
to update you
on the
premiums
we've added
something to
the first
premium that
we were giving
away
in fact if you
already called
for that it's
automatically added
for you
and that is
a subscription
to the magazine
as well as
a 2600 t-shirt
with the
Michelangelo
virus
that's two
things for a
pledge of
$75
212-279-3400
is our phone
number
again for
$75 you'll
get the
the hacker
magazine for
a full year
and a brand
new t-shirt
with the
Michelangelo
virus on it
and for
$150 you
will get
the
both the
subscription
the t-shirt
and the
videotape
of the
hacker
conference
dealing with
hacker
authors
and how
hackers are
portrayed
in the
media
and now
let's hear
from Paul
Tuff
of the
magazine
Harpers
can you
guys hear
me
good
I
despite
Emmanuel's
helpful
questions
I'm not
sure
exactly
what kind
of questions
you guys
want me
to answer
so I
just want
to tell
you a bit
about what
my experiences
were
reporting
on with
hackers
and then
give you
more time
to ask me
questions
if you've
got any
one thing
that's
different
between me
and some
other
hacker
journalists
is that
I'm sort
of retired
I haven't
really done
much in
the last
three or
four years
partly that's
because I'm not
really a computer
reporter
sort of like
Julian I look at
myself when I am
a reporter much
more as a reporter
on cultures
on groups
and the way I
first became
interested in
hackers was
in 1989
when I picked
up about the
same time
picked up an
issue of
2600 and
got signed
on to the
well and
started exploring
both of those
worlds a bit
the first thing
that I did
was I'm an
editor at
Harper's Magazine
and we did
a forum
in I think
it was February
1990 in which
we got
largely with
Emanuel's help
we got a lot
of people
on the well
and hackers
here in New York
together to
discuss what
we the headline
we gave it was
is computer
hacking a crime
and it was a
10 day forum
online in which
another editor
and I sort of
tried to direct
the discussion
tried to ask
questions
tried to see
if there was
such a thing
as a hacker
manifesto
tried to see
where different
people drew
the line
between legal
and illegal
this
this forum
was mostly
famous for a
run in between
two people
who would go
on to be
even bigger
figures in the
hacker world
fiber optic
and John
Perry Barlow
who sort of
had a generational
war going on
and it led
to Barlow
claiming that
optic was basically
no different
from a
skateboarder
and immediately
after that
optic
grabbed his
credit rating
from TRW
and downloaded
it into the
forum
thus proving
that there was
a bit of a
difference between
him and a
skateboarder
so I mean
in
that sort of
answered
I mean
that was a
very different
way to
present hackers
and it's a
way that
I think
worked
just because
we let
hackers
talk in
their own
words
I mean
we
interfered
as little
as possible
as we could
in the
conversation
most of the
words that
ended up
in that
article
were
the
participants
and not
ours
so in
that way
it was
easy to
put you
guys into
words
because we
just let
you use
your own
words
but from
that I
met a
couple of
teenage
computer
hackers
and
started
hanging out
with them
and trying
to figure
out more
about what
led someone
at a young
age to
want to
hack
and started
writing this
article for
Esquire magazine
with a
friend of
mine
Jack
Hit
and
basically
what we
did was
sort of
apprentice
ourselves
to these
two guys
and got
them to
teach us
everything
that we
could possibly
understand
about
hacking
that
the main
barrier there
was that
they
were
miles ahead
of us
and most
of the
time we
just
were trying
to get
them to
slow down
enough
that we
could
keep
track
of what
they
were
saying
but
we
hung out
with them
for a
really
long
time
we hung
out
with them
for like
three
months
and
most
of the
time
we
were
hacking
when we
were
with
them
they
were
getting
into
various
systems
they were
especially
interested
in the
phone
system
in 9x
and they
would
sort of
explain
to us
what
they
were
doing
and
why
they
were
doing
it
and
over
the
course
of
that
period
we
sort
of
learned
we
came
to
some
conclusions
about
ways
that
they
hadn't
done
and
that's
about it
for me
and
hackers
those
are my
main
two
contributions
to the
debate
the only
thing
that I
would
add
is
basically
to
say
what
Julian
said
the
thing
that
I'm
here
with
a
national
public
radio
reporter
and
we
were
talking
to
a
few
people
yesterday
and
the
thing
that
still
strikes
me
there
were
a
couple
of
photographers
and
newspaper
photographers
and
WINS
reporters
and
people
like
that
going
around
and
interviewing
people
and
taking
pictures
and
there
really
seemed
to be
a
despite
the fact
as Julian
said
that
there's
this
kind
of
anti-media
rhetoric
among
a lot
of
hackers
there
was
a
real
feeling
of
when
the
photographers
showed
up
people
just
smiled
and
rolled
over
and
hoped
that
their
bellies
would
get
scratched
by
the
media
and
I
think
there's
a
real
distinction
between
different
types
of
reporters
there are
people
that are
going to
really
listen
to
what
people
have
to
say
and
really
try
and
understand
the
technology
and
try
and
understand
the
sociology
and
are
going to
write
articles
that
help
things
rather than
hurt
things
a
young
a
16
year
old
guy
here
yesterday
told
me
that
he
read
my
article
and
it
got
him
more
interested
in
hacking
he
got
it
in
his
high
school
library
and
that's
the
best
thing
that
anyone
has
ever
said
to
me
about
my
article
that
was
what
I
was
hoping
would
happen
so
good
things
can
come
from
talking
to
journalists
but
when
you
get
the
Geraldo
show
showing
up
and
asking
if
you
could
break
into
defense
department
computers
and
launch
ICBMs
and things
like that
you've
got to
figure out
pretty early
that there
is no
way
that
anything
good
is
going
to
come
of
this
interview
you've
got to
learn how
to
distinguish
and
just
say
no
I
don't
want
to
talk
to
you
it
really
seems
like
that's
something
that
a lot
of
hackers
have
not
developed
that skill
that
they
are
just
going to
participate
in
anything
that
is
going
to
get
their
name
or
photo
in
the
media
and
that
can
be
as
some
people
have
learned
that
can
be
really
dangerous
unlike
my
esteemed
colleagues
on my
left
your
right
my
left
I
don't
consider
myself
to be
a
journalist
per
se
I
consider
myself
to be
a
writer
a
commentator
editorial
big
mouth
hopefully
somewhat
entertaining
with what
I do
to
cross
over
some
barriers
being
the
suits
being
phone
companies
being
the
Pentagon
down
to
whatever
social
subcultures
happen to
exist
and try
to
make
some
sort
of
transitions
or
provide
some
material
for
people
to be
able
to
understand
what's
going
on
the
other
side
there's
an
awful
lot
of
misunderstandings
that
are
certainly
going
on
and
I
think
also
in
this
field
that
we
also
see
is
a
great
deal
of
boring
writing
going
on
and
entertaining
we need
some
fun
and
you
guys
provide
an
awful
lot
of
fodder
for
that
as
far
as
I'm
concerned
if
you've
read
the
latest
piece
I
did
on
Cyber
Christ
then
you'll
have
some
idea
of
what
we're
doing
and
on
this
particular
one
we're
going
to
do
a
review
of
this
conference
called
Cyber
Christ
gets
nailed
to
the
cross
so
hopefully
it'll
be as
entertaining
as
some
of
the
others
have
been
but
you
guys
are
not
the
bad
guys
the
media
sometimes
doesn't
quite
get
that
certainly
corporate
America
doesn't
entirely
get
that
they
do
tend
to
peg
you
as
the
bad
guys
and
that
contributes
certainly
to
some
of
the
rhetoric
that
we
hear
going
on
probably
the
closest
example
that
I
saw
to
some
of
the
hackers
not
understanding
exactly
what
to
do
occurred
with
fiber
optic
a
couple
of
days
after
he
got
busted
on
the
latest
round
and
I
wanted
to
talk
to
him
so
I
called
him
up
at
home
and
I
said
this is
Winn Schwartz
I want
to chat
with you
he goes
how'd
you
get
my
phone
number
I
said
from
information
and
he
was a
little
stunned
at
that
so
we
chatted
for
a
couple
minutes
and
he
said
you
know
my
lawyer
says
I
can't
talk
to
you
and
I
said
no
I
understand
you know
with the
case
going
down
you know
you're not
supposed to
get yourself
in any
more
trouble
he
goes
yeah
and
I
said
but
before
we
go
let
me
just
ask
you
one
question
and
he
goes
what
I
said
why
did
you
do
it
four
hours
of
on
the
record
conversation
that
thoroughly
indicted
him
he
did
not
understand
and
a lot
of
this
culture
does
not
understand
that
when
people
go on
the
record
they're
on
the
record
they
don't
understand
what
off
the
record
is
they
don't
you
don't
understand
often
what
background
is
how
to
use
things
anonymously
like
when
you read
the
New York
Times
you
see
things
according
to
a
source
who
doesn't
want
to
be
identified
because
he
loses
his
job
at
the
White
House
the
same
kind
of
thing
you
have
the
same
privileges
and
rules
and
quality
journalists
quality
writers
will
adhere
to
those
types
of
rules
regardless
of
what
side
of
the
fence
you
may
or
may
not
be
on
and
the
better
writers
will
keep
confidential
your
secrets
and
they'll
keep
confidential
the
secrets
of
the
Pentagon
and
all
the
other
suit
level
people
as
well
so
the
rules
are
the
same
for
everybody
but
you
got
to
become
aware
of
what
all
the
rules
really
are
and
the
issue
about
hacking
somehow
there's
this
impression
that
hacking
is
new
that
it's
something
that's
come out
in the
last
four
years
or
ten
years
or
what
have
you
but
I
don't
know
who
created
that
image
but
technology
has
been
around
for
a
long
time
and
people
the
edge
of
it
the
difference
that
we
have
today
versus
the
other
types
of
hacking
in
prior
technological
societies
is the
connectivity
there's
really
the
only
difference
and
when
you
have
the
kind
of
connectivity
we
have
today
the
presence
the
awareness
is
the
main
difference
people
have
always
pushed
the
edge
and
when
they're
pushing
the
edge
they're
generally
doing
it
for
social
good
and
this
has
not
been
something
that
the
media
in
my
opinion
has
really
gotten
right
because
the
majority
of
the
media
when
I
read
the
stories
on
you
guys
and
the
various
factions
of
the
security
industry
they get
it wrong
the
journalists
do not
have
the
technological
basis
generally
no offense
to the
gentleman
on my
left
here
they
generally
do
not
have
the
technological
basis
to
understand
when
somebody's
bull
or not
is it
possible
is it
not
possible
and
I'll
give
you
most
classic
example
and
then
I'll
pass
the
mic
on
Ted
Koppel
was
hosting
Nightline
and
I
was
sitting
there
with
my
wife
I
have
a
life
and
kids
and
all
that
we
were
sitting
at
home
at
1130
and
he
came
on
to
announce
that
the
United
States
had
won
the
war
against
Iraq
using
a
computer
virus
well
I
looked
at
my
wife
and
I
said
there's
something
wrong
with
nature
and
they
proceeded
to
describe
how
it
worked
and
what
it
was
the
National
Security
Agency
in
its
infinite
wisdom
designed
a
computer
virus
to
go
inside
of
a
chip
which
they
then
gave
to
the
CIA
so
the
CIA
now
has
this
little
computer
chip
designed
to
take
down
Iraq
they
fly
over
to
France
and
they
find
a
French
printer
company
and
they
say
oh
this
fits
into
that
and
they
the
French
printer
is
apparently
bound
for
Iraq
one way
or
another
and
this
is
again
this
is
nightline
telling
this
story
with
US
news
and
world
report
providing
all
of
the
accurate
information
and
they
got
the
printer
to
Amman
Jordan
and
since
there
was
an
embargo
they
only
wanted
to
let
the
printers
with
the
viruses
through
and
they
somehow
got
this
printer
into
an
Iraqi
air
defense
installation
down
near
Kuwait
so
a
couple
of
minutes
before
we
decide
to
send
in
the
cruise
missiles
to
make
right
turns
at
the
El
Rashid
hotel
we
decide
it's
time
to
launch
the
virus
so
a
couple
of
minutes
before
we
say
go
the
virus
this
is
nightline
not
me
now
jumps
out
of
the
printer
into
the
air
defense
radar
systems
which
are
running
windows
3.0
and
subsequently
ate
up
all of
their
air
defense
capabilities
I
was
bothered
by
this
story
and
I
said
to
my
wife
go
to
bed
I
got
some
homework
to
do
and
I
went
through
some
files
something
really
just
gnawed
at the
back
of
my
mind
and
subsequently
I
wrote
an
article
called
the
Iraqi
virus
hoax
this
story
word
for
word
point
for
point
issue
for
issue
there's
14
of
them
fully
documented
and I
put it
all over
the
net
was
written
originally
by
John
Gantz
an
info
world
columnist
on
April
1st
1991
it
was
an
April
fool's
joke
upon
who
becomes
the
question
so
I
called
up
the
following
Monday
morning
after
talking
to
Coppel's
people
who
disavowed
any
knowledge
of
it
that's
why
they
were
reporting
it
and
I
talked
to
the
author
Brian
Duffy
at
US
News
and
World
Report
and I
said
Brian
this
thing
is
a
crock
what
happened
what's
wrong
and
apparently
I
sent
them
to
something
of
a
panic
and
he
called
me
back
two
days
later
and
he
says
we're
sticking
by
the
story
it's
accurate
I
said
where
is
your
source
he
goes
to
knowledgeable
generals
so
so much
for
knowledgeable
generals
so much
for
knowledgeable
media
point
is
be
careful
who
you're
talking
to
the
gentleman
on
the
left
or
right
be
aware
of
the
rules
be
aware
of
your
rights
that
good
journalists
will
give
you
and
then
you
can
start
talking
about
getting
some
stories
and
your
viewpoints
put
across
right
thanks
we
are
listening
to
selections
from
the
panel
at
the
Hackers
on
Planet
Earth
conference
last
year
where
we
had
some
journalists
some
authors
and
some
movie
makers
all
sitting
at
the
same
table
and
giving
advice
to
hackers
and
answering
questions
from
hackers
as
far
as
portrayal
in
the
mass
medium
we're
doing
a
fundraiser
here
at
off
the
hook
on
WBAI
and
we
need
your
support
if
you'd
like
a
copy
of
the
entire
videotape
having
to do
with
this
particular
panel
runs
about
90
minutes
then
we've
got
a
deal
for
you
where
if
you
give
us
a
call
at
212-279-3400
and pledge
$150
you'll get
that
you'll get
a
subscription
to
2600
magazine
the
hacker
quarterly
and
you'll
get
a
brand
new
2600
hacker
t-shirt
with
the
michelangelo
virus
again
we're
not
getting
very
many
phone
calls
here
and
I
think
it
might
be
possibly
because
we're
on a
different
time
but
we
need
to
really
get
some
more
calls
coming
in
quickly
212-279-3400
the phone
lines are
quiet
very quiet
inside
and we
need
to
get
people
in
there
a
little
bit
more
excited
than
they
are
right
now
wake
them
up
a
bit
if
you
will
we
also
have
a
couple
of
other
deals
where
for
$75
you
can
get
the
2600
hacker
t-shirt
and a
subscription
to the
magazine
and
that's
for
a
$75
pledge
so
you
have
$75
you
have
$150
and
of
course
anything
you
pledge
will
be
helpful
for
any
pledge
that
you
phone
in
you'll
get
the
WBAI
folio
which
tells
you
all
the
programs
that
we
have
throughout
the
course
of
the
weeks
and
months
212
279
3400
if
freedom
of
speech
means
something
to
you
then
I
think
it
makes
sense
to be
tied
into
this
entire
system
that
we've
got
here
this
is
a
unique
radio
station
if
you're
just
stumbling
upon
us
for
the
first
time
you
might
be
realizing
that
there
aren't
very
many
places
like
this
not
in
New
York
not
on
the
FM
dial
anywhere
there's
only
a
few
stations
that
will
broadcast
this
kind
of
material
anywhere
in the
country
it's
because
that's
the way
radio
is
you know
radio
is
kind
of
this
marketing
force
that
has
been
corrupted
over
the
years
by
commercial
entities
just like
I guess
anything
is
corrupted
by
commercial
entities
over
time
we're
trying
to
preserve
this
here
in
New
York
and
you
may
notice
that
we
don't
have
commercials
this
is
how
it
all
works
radio
is
paid
for
by
commercials
magazines
are
paid
for
by
advertising
if
you
don't
have
commercials
if
you
don't
have
advertising
then
you
need
to
rely
on
individual
people
to
keep
the
project
going
that's
why
we
need
your
help
now
212-279-3400
we have
one call
on the
line
but we
have
capacity
for
I
believe
seven
at
the
same
time
so
let's
light up
those
phone
calls
every
person
makes
a
difference
here
because
you're
our
sponsors
you're
the
ones
that
tell
us
if
we're
doing
a
good
job
or
not
if
it
matters
what
we're
saying
and
we'd
like
to
think
that
the
messages
we've
been
sending
you
the
news
we've
been
reporting
over the
past
several
months
has
meant
something
has
made
a
difference
the
news
about
Bernie
S
calling
us
live
from
prison
every
week
that
that
has
reached
quite
a
few
people
and
made
them
realize
the
dangers
that
we're
facing
in
today's
electronic
society
the dangers
of people
not
understanding
it
people
in
control
who
do
not
understand
are
a
great
danger
to
us
all
because
they'll
pass
legislation
that
doesn't
make
any
sense
and
that
can
send
innocent
people
to
prison
for
long
periods
of
time
we've
seen
it
happen
time
and
time
again
unfortunately
we
probably
will
continue
to
see
it
happen
but
what's
important
here
is that
we have
a voice
to let
you know
what's
going on
to let
others
know
to get
people
involved
it does
make a
very big
difference
to give
you an
example
of this
word
got out
that
Bernie
S.
was
talking
to us
week
after
week
here
on
WBAI
and
his
legal
people
were
contacted
by
the
Secret
Service
and
they
wanted
pressure
to be
put
on
us
to
stop
it
to
stop
having him speak out because they thought it might incite people to violence or something
it might have some horrible effect
they're really really worried about people speaking out and there's got to be a reason for that
it's because freedom of speech is the most powerful tool there is
that's why it's important for you to continue the process 212-279-3400 I want to thank the person just called in
but we have many open lines 212-279-3400 remember the most important thing is that you're investing
in the radio station you're investing in our future and you're becoming a part of the whole community here by doing this 212-279-3400 if you want to pledge $75 we have the package of the hacker t-shirt and the one year subscription to the magazine and if you pledge $150 which is very very helpful to us obviously we'll thank you by sending you three different things sending you the subscription the t-shirt and the
and the videotape 212-279-3400 every little bit makes a difference
okay we've got either one or two phone lines ringing it's kind of hard to tell in here because half the lights are broken and you know those lights wouldn't be broken if we got some calls we can get money to fix things around here
but we need I know that not all seven lights are lit that much I do know and those lights are lit all the time when we ask for phone calls
you know imagine if we were not here imagine if we weren't able to ask for phone calls you think we're just being paranoid we're not being paranoid this is what happens when you don't support a radio station
things go out of business things fall into disrepair you know the the public radio stations here in this city are falling apart I mean you've heard what Giuliani's doing he's selling WNYC
he's selling it because they don't want to have to support it anymore they just want it to uh you know to to be supported by by other people they don't want to deal with the hassle
he would be happy he would be very happy selling it to a commercial interest and getting millions of dollars for it and and hey that'd be something to cover the budget deficit
you know it's always there's always a budget deficit somewhere and that's that's what they they they see a non-commercial radio station as a potential money maker
fortunately that station was was bought by its uh by its employees I believe and and they're gonna try and save it uh in that particular way and hopefully they will
but it just goes to show the danger that any station can fall into once the financial burden becomes too great
and the WBAI is certainly uh not immune from that the same thing could happen there's there was talk years ago of uh of us going to a
a lesser frequency on the dial unfortunately cooler heads prevailed that was that was years ago when people were
were saying hey you know we could make millions of dollars if we sell this this frequency at 99.5 fm I
mean think of it 99.5 fm you can't get more in the middle of the fm dial than that usually usually
non-commercial radio is segregated below 92 you know and nobody ever wanders over below 92 because uh well
that's where the weirdos hang out but we're right here right smack next to z100 we're right next to hot 97
and all those other people you know and a lot of a lot of folks going from one station to another
they they don't quite turn the dial hard enough and they they miss their station and they hit us
instead and sometimes sometimes they're disgusted and revolted and they turn even faster but sometimes
those few times like maybe now you stick around and you listen and you hear what people are saying
what they're doing and you say wow I never knew you could do that on radio before and you can't
you can't do this on radio without support that's what it boils down to I mean we're not uh we're not
asking for funds because we're greedy we're not asking for funds because uh you know we we want to
pay ourselves we don't even pay ourselves here we're doing this for nothing we're just asking for
money because that's the only way we can continue doing this sure we could we could say okay let's sell
some commercial time let's try it out like uh like channel 13 does you know like pbs stations across the
nation are starting to experiment with commercials a little bit I mean with the underwriting work you
know you can you can say uh you can have these these these phrases now saying that hey coke is is
pretty good or coke is maybe even better than this other brand but it's not really a commercial it's
just an announcement it's announcement at the beginning of the program and at the end of the
program and maybe in the middle of the program too and maybe just a little uh scrolls thing underneath
the program while it's going on as well just uh it's not going to bother anybody and then they start
experimenting with real commercials you know inserting those in as well and before you know
it you've lost the unique non-commercial status and more importantly than that you've lost whatever
independence you have because hey who wants to piss off coca-cola if they're your if they're your
prime sponsor you know I mean that's a lot of money we're talking about here and money is what it boils
down to now when we have individual listeners supporting us it's totally different because
you're individuals you're not going to agree with everything you hear on this radio station
but odds are you'll be able to get a voice somehow to hear something that you like to say something
that you want to say over the FM airwaves that's what you're supporting please help us out 212-279-3400
this is our off the hook special for this particular marathon so if you're going to show support please
do it now uh and send the message that uh that off the hook is important to you uh that's uh that's
an important message to send I think that uh that a lot of people are are becoming aware of the things
we're trying to say I mean we were in USA today that means that people are starting to take notice of
us I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing it's kind of like the AOL syndrome you know
where where uh um I guess that the mass market starts uh starts looking at you as as a potential
money maker maybe or as a as somebody to be to be cautious of but um it's also good because there
are those sparks of light out there in the populace that you may not reach in any other way that's why
it's important to be here that's why it's important to talk to people who may or may not be coming from
the right uh the right background the right uh uh the right agenda for instance we talked to the
people I talked to the people in Atlanta Georgia at the uh the hacker convention thinking thinking
these people were independent filmmakers you know and I I said to myself okay I'll help an independent
filmmaker out well turned out it was the secret service okay you got me you know I talked to the
secret service on camera and they interviewed me and I didn't even know it was them and so did many
other people but you know the the alternative to that is to not talk to anybody is to is to clam up
to to to withdraw into a shell and I think overall we'd be much worse off if we if we just uh kept to
ourselves didn't share information with anybody and uh just acted in an overall suspicious manner
uh it's it's it's risky but it's essential it's the only way to get the message out is to uh is to try
and reach as many people as possible to let you let us know let you know that we're out here and to
give you the same opportunity to do that of course we need a vehicle to be able to do that with and
this radio station is a great vehicle to have I don't know how many people in New York realize how
lucky they are but uh if you don't realize it there's one very important way to find out get in a car
and drive and to start driving around this country and tuning the radio dial even go to big big cities
go to go to Boston and Chicago I mean you'll find non-commercial radio stations you'll find some good
ones but you won't find something like this I'm sitting here in a control room where amazing things
happen every single day the people that come in here and do radio are some of the most interesting
people in the world you'll get uh leaders of countries you'll get rock musicians you'll get uh hippies
from the 60s and and rap artists from the 90s you'll get all kinds of interesting people coming
through these walls or doors actually sometimes walls depends and you can't have that without
community support that's the that's the important thing so whether or not you want the hacker t-shirt
and uh and the hacker quarterly subscription that's not really the point is it the point is that you
want the radio station that you support the program 212-279-3400 that's the number to call to voice
your support makes a big difference and uh you know I I know you might be hearing this thinking
that uh I'm just programmed to say that that it makes a big difference that every call counts that
we read every letter and and and uh you know everything makes a difference to us well we're at
the stage where it does make a difference one person calling in right now pledging 25 makes a difference
it really does 212-279-3400 and again not to sound too commercial anything like that we do take
mastercard and visa so if you want to spread it out over time you you certainly can do that as well
uh 212-279-3400 thanks to everybody who called in got a smattering of calls there which is always
nice to see makes me think that there are people out there that care that are listening we have a lot
more things to go through in the weeks ahead yeah in case you missed it in case you're tuning in now
10 o'clock we've been on for an hour and we're in the middle of uh of playing a special uh videotape
that uh that we'll be offering that we are offering uh but in case you missed the announcement
that uh off the hook is moving we're moving to tuesday nights at 8 p.m starting october 3rd
so i have to think that's a better time slot actually i don't know what uh what people out there
think but um being on a little bit earlier and and possibly reaching other people as well
it's always good to try something new i think 212-279-3400 so that's that's the news that we
have uh as far as the show goes and uh we we had some news we reported on bernie s earlier i guess
we'll report that again later on towards the end of the program so we don't have to repeat ourselves
too many times just to recap one more time because we're going to go back to the videotape now and
yeah obviously it's not a videotape on the radio we know that but you're going to hear the audio part
of it if you want the full video portion which which includes an hour and a half of uh journalists
film producers the people who made the film hackers right there on videotape answering questions from
hackers a year ago before the film was actually made uh then for 150 you'll get that videotape
you'll get a subscription to 2600 magazine you'll be the first to find out all kinds of uh of neat
controversial things four times a year and you'll also get the brand new 2600 t-shirt which has only
been distributed overseas so nobody else in this country has one yet unless they've been overseas
and come back 212-279-3400 that t-shirt by the way has the michelangelo virus on the front of it and
in case you want to know what the michelangelo virus looks like you just have to look at a t-shirt to see
but it's all there and it's all very dangerous so uh that's that's in the words of some some people in
charge 212-279-3400 again for a 75 pledge you will get the t-shirt and the subscription to the
magazine and for any pledge you'll get a a one year's guide to the radio station the folio we call
it as well as i think the best thing of all the satisfaction of knowing that you're helping a
place like bai exist and stay the way it's been since the early 1960s okay enough talking 212-279-3400
i hope to see some calls come in while we're playing the next portion uh what we're going to play now is
words of ian softly who is the director of the film hackers again this is august of 1994 before
the film was actually made so you'll hear something about the uh the thought process going going into
that uh that will be followed by rafael moreau who wrote the film wrote the screenplay years ago
and um uh came to 2600 meetings and got lots of input from people there and uh we'll be taking some
phone calls later from people that have hopefully seen the film have some feedback on that 212-279-3400
please show your support thanks to everybody you have so far i came to the project hackers relatively
late in its development um after uh i was over here for the release of backbeat last year i was looking
at a number of scripts i didn't think i was going to make a film over here uh i had some more pet
projects in my top drawer that i was uh hoping to to get off the ground but the thing that appealed to
me about this script and made it stand out really from all the others i was being offered uh script
written by rafael uh was the fact that it had a sense of humor that was based on a kind of delinquency
um it had many similar themes to to the movie backbeat that i that i just made uh and the thing
that really appealed to me was that here was a here was a subculture bursting through and really
threatening the established culture in a way that the established culture was not going to be able to
ignore it anymore and was going to subsume it but also be influenced by it uh i think that for each
generation what uh what is discovering things are new what is working out the world for your own
uh working out the rules that you want to live it by the established culture always sees that as
delinquency whether it's um drug experimentation or riding motorbikes in the 1950s or uh whatever so
it was really from that broad cultural point of view that i that that i uh hooked into the script but i
also just like the sense of of fun and and uh and disrespect that i think is very healthy and and and
the more i i got to know about hacking culture the more i realized that that that sort of absurdist view
of the world you know isn't it ridiculous that everybody trusts all of this stuff everybody
trusts that the computers are going to uh allow them to lead their life in a well-ordered way and
that the money that you say you have in your account is the money you have in your account when somebody
says you have this you've committed this crime or you haven't paid that parking ticket or you've got
this grade in school nobody questions it and i think uh the mirror that hacking has held up society
is not only amusing but has uh got a got a serious point to it as as well um having really got uh hooked
on the subject from a point of view of of making a movie um the question then arises as to how do you
treat a real life situation uh a script that obviously borrows on a lot of real issues and real people
um in order that it's it's an enjoyable and entertaining movie that people are going to go
and see um but also that is going to be true in some way to its subject matter and that's the
the big question that that approaches and faces people like like me who um want to make movies based on
in some way real real life uh and it's a question that there isn't really any right answer to
and uh i know that when i was making backbeat uh a lot of people were nervous when i was trying to
get the film off the ground for those of you that don't know it's the story of the fifth beetle
stuart suckliff and his relationship with with john lennon uh it's a very sacred story in a sense and
a very well documented one they were the real people were a lot of the real people were alive
a lot of the uh the story had been documented but i had to take liberties with with with the facts
and i think one of the things that i was approaching first of all uh when i uh came to
new york and started to think about researching this this movie with with with raf was really to do
what i did on backbeat which was to absorb myself as much as i could in in the relatively short time
knowing that rafael had spent i think a good two years meeting uh hackers um and really trying to
use that knowledge to to get the spirit of the movie right um bearing in mind that at times we were
going to have to uh adapt things for the for the big screen so those are really the two the two ways
that i that i approach the material trying to find out what's what's really out there and then find
another way in which it can be presented for the screen that is true to that essence but at the same
time uh takes on a life of its own
that was uh ian softly the director of the film hackers which has just come out uh this this past
weekend uh next we'll be hearing from rafael maru who wrote the film wrote it from a screenplay uh
actually wrote it quite some time ago maybe uh about three or four years ago and it has actually
been made it's actually out on the screen now and this is some of uh some of his thoughts putting it
together again our phone number is 212-279-3400 um i guess everybody would be curious to say how a
hacker script gets off the ground or originally gets started i would i would say that one of the
things that this movie has very much in his favor is that it was not originally developed at a studio
it wasn't somebody saying kind of like oh cool you know let's do a rollerblade movie kids are really
into that and that sort of thing it it came about as a result really if i trace it all the way back
to its real origins it was before war games or anything when a very good friend of mine in high
school who was studying mathematics our first year of college took me into a room where there were a lot
computers and it was about 10 o'clock in the evening and every computer was filled and people
were working obsessively and my first reaction was wow these people love their major and uh
and and i said to him uh this is cool what are they doing i have no idea and he said well they're all
they're all uh cracking software they're all getting into these games and they're breaking the codes to
all of them everybody and there was a big sign on the wall that said no cracking or hacking
and i was like this is pretty obvious everybody at every monitor is doing this what isn't there
some sort of a monitor or something it was like yeah he's over there trying to crack into you know
and and that was really sort of the when i in a serious way looking at how everybody i mean
there's a level of concentration that i think is a level of concentration that great athletes get into
and it's a level of concentration that that uh that uh you know dancing to some really great music
or having great sex or having there it was just a flow state in that that is what i i didn't even
realize at the time but it's what i saw in that room and and it was just um that's when the germ
of wanting to write about this because i i think that that any fun script really starts from character
rather than oh let's make a movie about rollerbladers you know um as time went on and then war games
came out and and i moved to new york and and was um always tracking stories about hackers and and what
happened with robert morris and and and just on and on and on and influential articles like the guys
that the ones that you guys wrote that that were very influential for me in terms of looking at it as
a as a subculture which um uh and then wrote the script and and the script was what's called a spec
script which means nobody paid me to write it i took two months off my wife worked extra shifts as a
bartender and and i hung out with fiber optic and and and acid freak and and the manual and and and
a whole lot of people for a large period of time were very generous with their ideas and and the
things that they'd been through um and during that time we started to feel a growing sense of
responsibility towards the ideas the political ideas and things that they said i i i do think that
as as uh as uh you guys said a kind of advocacy journalism it's it there's there was a very much
of an advocacy screenwriting in this sense because i was just so won over by everybody's sense of humor
and and the politics and and the things that they were trying to say and do i i very much agree with
the idea that the um that there's a responsibility on you as hackers and how you present yourself
and and when questions are asked to you by journalists during the long period of time i was
with the people i was working with i saw them get sandbagged several times um by by forbes magazine
but i should name any names i don't know if there's anybody here from forbes but i saw that happen
um and and and and and heraldo stuff and just everything and and uh you know you have to understand
that these people that come to you are are are in some cases you know they're just trying to make a buck
and they're going to try to come up with the most dramatic thing that they can come up with you
know hacker takes over satellite and and stuff like that because that's them going back to their
editor and saying oh i have a new angle on this story and and your new angle in your life is is their
new angle um so there it's a two-way street there is a responsibility you can't just point the finger
and say you know these these people don't know anything about what the hell they're talking about
um uh the one thing i would say i will about this particular script which to me was a very
good sign that happened with with michael uh as well was that when we finally started to get the
first off this the piece when the first went out was several years ago and hacking was not exactly on
the cutting edge of like culture that it is now in mass culture it's just sort of been working its way
and so most of the reactions we got from people were kind of like eh and uh the interesting thing
was that we got really strong very visceral political reactions from people um in fact the
studio that's now making the film under a previous regime uh had the piece covered by what's called a
story analyst or a reader and uh one of the people who's working with us managed a social engineer a
copy of that coverage what's called coverage sort of somebody's opinion of the script
and uh this guy must have been a young republican because he really just just did not like the
whole idea of of having hackers as protagonists and and sort of introducing their view of the world
and how it works and why if if in a sense if we don't all become hackers um we're we're shirking
our responsibility as as individuals and citizens um sometime later michael um gave the script to a
particular studio head who responded with the quote i am uncomfortable with its anti-establishment
attitude and uh and even though we were being turned down by a studio my my reaction was like
it works um uh and and other than that uh any questions that anybody would say i i i do want to
one last thing um i read a great quote the other day and i and i don't quite know who who i don't
remember who wrote it but it's in terms of of what uh what uh paul and julian are talking about
your responsibilities as hackers and talking to the media is uh that if you're not very careful
um the quote was you'll be paved over by the information superhighway um and i think that's
quite true i think that as people are finding a way to make money out of the internet and and people
finding way you know the whole home shopping thing and everything there there is a a what they
perceive as a cancer and hackers are that cancer and and uh unless you find a way to present
yourselves and take that on as part of your responsibility as people that that i'm not saying
everybody should be political but you should be aware when you're talking to these people with what
you're doing and in terms of what the information you're giving them um because let's face it it's
like i said corporate america is not quite enamored of you
i don't have much really to add except that when i first became aware of this world was
20 some years ago and i worked on i think all the network project out of uh i came out of the sds in
columbia in 68 um and it studied how information corporations were structured um uh basically in
a form of monopoly capitalization um and then i went off and made a lot of good comedies um
which were about as subversive as i could be in that period um now what's quite unique about this
activity in the information world and the facility that i guess the group that calls is called hackers
has and quite frankly the whole younger generation which is facile with the computer technology way
beyond any of their their seniors uh be it their teachers or their parents is that the context of
society has become information based as opposed to you know oil and gold and whatever else so
finally you have the potential for a new frontier uh which which in the american spirit of
storytelling and the great american myths has always been uh about some guy going out there onto the
frontier um and what's happening here what i've been watching the last day or so is that same kind of
spirit which has been missing somewhat culturally for the last 20 years until things got caught up with
themselves to give this you know internet i remember also sitting a few months ago in at ucla at the
super highway conference uh where i was sitting i just sort of wandered in and sat and watched uh all the
uh heads of the major companies blab about uh what a great thing this was and how they could all be
connected and uh subverted and um and they didn't have a clue really um and what's fun to see here is
that people really do have a clue and they understand how to use it the thing that's been raised which is
about journalism too which is about responsibility but it's the responsibility of everybody who talks to
journalists who makes films who creates any kind of cultural activity is to have some sense of um
their own responsibility if everybody carries their own weight it's going to be cool uh the problem is
there's some people want to carry more than their own weight and uh and there are people who just are
sort of irresponsible uh we're trying to be hip and aware of what what's going down we're also
trying to make a movie that's uh going to be a lot of fun to go to but uh we'll see we think we can do
it well did they do it or didn't they do it that's something i guess we'll have to discuss a little
later on after 11 o'clock we'll be taking phone calls on whether or not hackers the film was successful
at what it tried to do we just heard uh some statements from the director the producer and the
author actually in the order the director the author and the producer of the film hackers uh who all
appeared at the hackers on planet earth conference last year and for a pledge of 150 you can get a
copy of that videotape as well as a subscription to the magazine 2600 magazine that is and a 2600 t-shirt
which no doubt no doubt will start all kinds of conversations as you wear it around your town
uh whenever i wear the old 2600 shirt uh people always come up to me and say hey do you know the
people that put that out or i have have you ever met a hacker and questions that are kind of like
hard for me to answer but uh but which start all kinds of interesting conversations nonetheless
and of course it's your choice whether or not you uh you you care to uh to wear it out in the open or
cover it up with something else and know that it's it's something that you're wearing and keep that to
yourself it's up to you we also have the uh the 75 pledge for 75 you'll get the t-shirt and the
subscription to the magazine uh which um comes out every quarter we're 56 pages in length and uh
you know it's kind of strange because the magazine is popping up all over the place now it's showing
up in bookstores and supermarkets and things like that and it's kind of kind of uh caught the attention
of virtually everybody in the in the country i mean it's been it's been featured on 60 minutes on
nightline usa today the new york times and it's just this year uh that this has happened so
it's uh it's definitely strange seeing so many people get into hacking all of a sudden and and
this film coming out is going to make it even even more crazy so you can sort of ride the crest of the
wave although i gotta tell you the wave is is is well in progress now we've been coming out for 11
years with the magazine um and if you haven't seen a copy you really should if you're if you listen to
this radio station right now and you're at all interested in what you've been hearing uh you really
should be reading this magazine because that's what everybody else is reading that's what they
they they read before they made the film that's what they read uh before they do certain news stories
and and things like that they don't always they don't always turn out real well sometimes they
don't turn out well at all but at least there's the opportunity for a turnout in some form and uh by
being open by giving the uh uh the information out in a free manner that's uh that's what we're all
about 212-279-3400 let's get some phone calls on the line because um the more support we get the
stronger we will be the longer we can keep doing this kind of thing and there's going to be all
kinds of uh of occurrences in the future good and bad today for instance at&t you know this at&t
split into three pieces today that's right it's three pieces they're going to call it at&t no they're
not going to do that there that would be a good idea though uh they're going to split off into um
i i believe it's equipment services and computers that's right they're going to they're going to
get into computers they're going to try and forget the merger with ncr which didn't quite go very well
uh i think the the uh computer or actually the services now the services is going to remain at&t
and the uh the equipment i'm not quite sure how this is going to work but something is going to be
called global information services i that might be the computer um systems that they start selling
i'm not really sure exactly how they're going to do this but they decided to split into three pieces
and the reports i was hearing on the radio were kind of nuts they were saying things like uh at&t
thought it was better to do it this way so that they could compete with the internet i'm like compete
with the internet that's like competing with the sun you don't compete with the internet you work with
it you you become part of it you you use it it's a tool you don't uh uh try and and figure out
a different way to do this unless you know you figure you can do it uh uh in a better way but
i don't think at&t are going to be those people 212-279-3400 that's uh this is where you'll hear
alternative views on various topics like this uh as far as big corporate mergers corporate takeovers
and uh individual squashing and things like that you won't hear this on the commercial stations
you won't hear this uh in very many places because those places believe it or not are owned by
the same companies that they're talking about and of course they're going to talk about them in
glowing terms you need places like this you need wbai you need off the hook you need individual thought
and a voice so that you can speak out so that you can be a part of things it's not so important what
it is that we're we're giving you for 75 dollars or for 150 dollars by the way there are all kinds of
other things you can get when you call up you can ask the the tally room people what else that they
have to offer you might want something that has nothing to do with hacking of computers whatsoever we've
got all kinds of things but that's not the reason we're doing this it's not an auction we're not
out uh selling material here we're just trying to make it a little bit easier for people we're
donating equipment or uh or uh books or or tapes or what have you to the radio station and giving
those away to people that call in and pledge a certain amount uh it's all based on donations
the most important thing is for you to realize that you're supporting the radio station you're
supporting freedom of speech you're supporting this radio program and uh really the the best
thing i could say at this point is to call in 212-279-3400 what why are you waving the credit
card in front of me like that we do take credit cards are you going to make a pledge i was thinking
about uh making a pledge oh wow i finally got through to somebody in the room that's really incredible
so okay you're going to make a pledge based on what i just said now well uh that's cool i've been
listening to this show quite a bit not only listening to it who are you by the way who let you in here
live my name is blake okay and uh and i think uh you know instead of waiting for that uh 2600 to
show up on the uh books bookstore shelves i'd like to have it sent to me and it sounds like uh from
what i'm hearing you if i'm hearing correctly 75 dollars gets me a full year subscription right and
a 2600 2600 t-shirt right right and that t-shirt has not yet been released in this country you'd be
among the first people to to get one of those so uh and what is it's uh the michelangelo it's a
michelangelo virus in the front all right it's it's black it's black uh it's a black shirt with
white lettering on it just like the old ones except the text is totally different now there's uh
there's michelangelo virus and then on the back there's all kinds of uh of uh hacker articles and
and updated things that the last shirt came out years ago so the articles are kind of outdated by now
and also there's a there's a uh there's a smart card on the front too it's a little little diagram of a
smart card i'm sorry is that bill sf from amsterdam you came all the way from amsterdam here yeah i
came all the way to amsterdam for this wow now this is a big event actually uh i came out to new
york and i didn't realize the hackers movie was being released and all of a sudden i'm in this
oh you knew it you just were drawn to it like like i was just kind of that sixth sense i guess
it was really uh yeah it's amazing actually all the hackers from around the world somehow showed up
in new york just the very weekend the hackers came out and they all claimed they didn't know this
that's absolutely true i didn't know a thing about it and then i find out everyone's here and
it's just like it's karma that's what it is i guess it is or it's a destiny it's it's something like
that yeah it's uh but let's get let's get back to blake here you really you're not kidding me
you're really you're really making a pledge i'm going to uh i'm going to make a pledge for 75
dollars wow and uh i understand you take credit cards and personal checks now one thing i just
want to make i wouldn't wave that credit card around too much right no be careful not in this
room people have photographic memories in this room um but one question i had was if i get on your
subscription list for the magazine am i going to get put on any kind of uh fbi blacklist of some
sort that that is the question that is asked more than anything else uh at the magazine and uh the
answer is that no one else has ever had access to our mailing list except for us uh we keep it
encrypted and if somebody were to come in and steal our computers they still would be able to get to
the mailing list because the mailing list is encrypted and oh yes of course when we when we
re-encrypt it we wipe the original that was de-encrypted i know you know people are smart enough
to realize that there's still a way to get to it even after you encrypt because there's the old
clear text version somewhere uh so yeah we we take great precautions we always have
Google Maps
was that uh one of the things that kept bernie s for example uh locked up with a hundred thousand
dollars bail are the books that he had in his uh yeah on his shelf and uh that's really scary
they took his 2600s too they always they always take the 2600s because they i don't know if they
want to add to their libraries or what but uh but that's always something that that piques their
interest but you're not going to get in trouble by subscribing to us or by having your name in
our database because that's something that is not revealed and we will never reveal that
information to anybody um it's it's just something you know we mail it out to you and that's that's
how it goes to the post office unless you believe the post office is gathering names i guess that's
really the only possible way that it could happen but no one has ever gotten gotten access to us in
that way but yeah as you said before uh getting it through the mail is preferable to getting it in
the bookstores for several reasons um most important being that you get it much sooner you get it much
quicker it's it's more accurate you don't have to fight with all the other people trying to get it
i mean it's it's great to have it out there in bookstores but uh we have it out there we have
it at a cheaper price at the bookstores so that people can see it for the first time but i think
anyone's ever tried to get it on a regular basis i've tried to get it on a regular basis to see who
has it and it's frustrating because it's either hidden or it's you know i i ask them when's it coming
out i'm the editor and i'm asking them when it's coming out and they're they're telling me this this
stuff that's totally wrong they're saying yeah it's supposed to come out next week
and meanwhile i haven't even sent it to the printers yet so i don't know how they know this
but they're telling me things that are not true at all uh this way you know you'll get it directly
from us and if there are any problems you know you don't have to worry about the book story just
uh worry about uh you know dealing with us directly so you know i don't think you have to worry as far
as that goes uh that does sound pretty good it's good to know that i can get that you know that
subscription which i'm sure is hard to get for a lot of people and i'm going to get that t-shirt which
i'm looking forward to and furthermore i'm supporting this show which uh makes me feel
good because you know i've come to the show quite a bit and listened to you guys performing it online
uh live and so forth and uh you know i'd like to continue seeing that happen yeah so well you
know we're moving we're moving uh not next week but the week after that we're moving to tuesdays at
8 p.m right yeah so hopefully that's a better time slot i don't know yet are you going to reach a
larger audience well it's hard to say you know i don't know the first thing about radio demographics
and uh i hope they're not thinking too much in that in those terms because that's not really
what we're all about here but as long as the people listening now are able to listen tuesday at 8 p.m
i don't really see why they wouldn't be able to um and that that should be good i mean i don't see
that as necessarily a bad thing that sounds great so uh sign me up with that and okay well what you
should do is uh now this is not what other listeners should do you should get up and walk down the
hallway to the tally room where a tally person will will take your information from you but
all the rest of you unless you're nearby uh the the best way to get through to us is to call us
at uh 212-279-3400 and make your pledge and uh maybe maybe you could say it better than me as to
why that's why that's important why there's a call right now well for me it's uh i can just walk right
down the hall and i'm going to do that and get my uh make my pledge for something you got one call
with that so far so keep going and i i encourage uh any any other any other people out there who
have gained some knowledge or insight into what we're talking about here to pick up the phone
take out their credit card give us a call and make a pledge and you're not going to get on any
doesn't sound like you're going to get traced by the fbi for getting our subscription well you know
get a really cool my way of looking at it okay is that uh and not everybody shares this obviously but
we're reaching a period where you know the whole edwin meese philosophy of well you know if you got
nothing to hide you got nothing to worry about uh but we're getting put on lists all the time now
and if i'm on an fbi list or a secret service list or whatever kind of a list i think the best thing
to do is is to get as many people on that list as possible not to run away from it not to be afraid
of it but rather to challenge it so if the fbi is going around gathering names because people are
doing something they have every right to do you don't stop doing it you don't start hiding you start
saying yeah so what you know and and getting all your friends to do it too i'm not saying that
uh you know we should we should advertise who who subscribes to us or anything like that
but i'm just saying it's not necessarily something that you should be afraid of
because you're in the right right absolutely what you're doing is disseminating information
it's in a text-based format or in a vocal format right there's absolutely nothing wrong with that
information should be free and it should be available to the masses and uh and you some of the
information that you uh uh put out there is some people may find uh a little radical and so forth
but uh i think that information in and of itself uh only engenders knowledge and and is should be free
and the the means for distributing it should be uh unstopped as well and i really appreciate what
this show stands for and you know letting people know what's what's going on out there by means of
getting the information out to people you know we should always have access to information it's uh
you know if you get a if you find something on how to build a bomb that doesn't mean that you should
go out and build it and blow people up or anything but having it having that information in and of
itself is is really harmless it's it's using it and doing bad things with it that it should be avoided but
people should have uh you know the ability to gather any kind of information that they want without
right well you know the information is is out there i was at this this recent security conference in
washington dc and i kept hearing you know the same thing you know that we're saying information wants
to be free and they kept saying well my information doesn't want to be free and you know the the hacker
response to that is well you know stop uh tell you tell your information that you know and and and
stop leaking it all over the place and having it publicly available on the net if you really want to
protect something like we protect our mailing list encrypt it store it on an isolated machine
you know use your brains as far as that particular thing goes but uh as far as as general disclosure
i think we're in a period now where where uh there's there's more accountability for what uh
what what people what companies are doing and if you have the means of finding out something you
should share it you know share it with other people and i think that's what what hackers do for the
most part we find out things we let people know about and that's that's of course why we always get
into trouble because we tell people what what we find out we're not very good criminals we don't
hide it for ourselves and and use it for only certain elite people uh so that's kind of uh how the
whole thing comes about in the first place but you know i think one thing that this radio station
this radio program has has shown us is that people who don't consider themselves hackers are very
interested in what it is that we're talking about and you don't have to be a hacker to appreciate
it in the first place uh some of the information we're able to find out as far as how the phone
companies work what they're up to what they do uh how they deceive people and the same goes for for
other companies as well or the bits of technology how to use something to your advantage or how
something works even though they don't want you to know how it works you know we all have curiosity in
us somewhere and i think we all are fighting you know and and and rooting for the little guy against
the big system i mean why else do we always stand up for the for the individual fighting against uh
you know the kafka-ish societies or uh you know the prisoner type scenarios or things like that
because we feel an identity with that we we want the individual to win in the end and i think nothing
encompasses that more than hackers what what hackers are fighting right now right and furthermore the
information that that is disseminated on programs like this is the first to be repressed and that will
set precedence for uh other types of information and you know if it gets repressed here then there's really
no stopping once once they that's right once the governments and companies are able to control
information on this level which is you know uh some is once they stop information on this level then who
knows to what extent they'll continue repressing information right so it's important to keep
putting the word out and uh you know good luck with your magazine i'm going to walk down the hall
here okay you walk down the hall yeah because uh great i think the tally people are waiting for you
right now so okay so thank you blake for uh for that generous donation and again if you're out there
and you're thinking about uh about calling us up please do because imagine where we'd be if we didn't
have this voice now we wouldn't know anything about the bernie s case we wouldn't even know anything
about the fiber optic case last year and we wouldn't be able to uh to keep updated on all the other
things going on on the internet um in uh in in the electronic society in general there's a lot going on
a lot happening and we provide a unique voice for that 212-279-3400 please give us a call where we've
we've got operators standing by and we'll be back right after this
a cost of thousands and you have won two million tickets
It's basically what? PPP, slip, dial-up, shell. What do all those terms mean? What's considered complete these days?
Being connected directly to the Internet with a protocol called TCPIP and using any application that's out there.
For instance, the famous Netscape, see you, see me for video conferencing, and so forth.
Now, that's really neat. See you, see me where you actually see somebody in another part of the world, and you can talk to them, and all you're doing is making a local phone call.
So there's even voice conversations you could have over the Internet with a standard modem.
I saw that on CBS News, like at 3.30 in the morning. They were doing a see you, see me conference.
It looked really funny. They had five people there, and they were moving kind of slowly, and sometimes they wouldn't move at all.
And then this one guy got frozen, you know, freeze-framed with his mouth open, and then he stayed on there for about 30 seconds, and he just disappeared altogether.
So it still has some growing pains, but I think this is the part you want to be involved in when it's having these growing pains, when you're helping to develop it.
So now you're offering, for I believe $150, you're offering Internet access, full Internet access.
Complete Internet access. You even get access to put up your own web page.
Uh-huh. That's cool. So everybody has web pages these days. That's kind of where you, I guess, advertise whatever you are or whatever you want to say.
Well, you put up your interest. You want to, you know, basically provide information to other people that you're interested in.
Uh-huh.
Okay, so now we only have a limited number of these, too, so I think there's only five total, which isn't very many for the whole city of New York.
212-279-3400, you'll get full access for six months, unlimited, for $150.
We'll send you to software if you have a Macintosh. We'll send you to software if you have a PC.
Uh-huh.
We'll help you over the phone to configure it, or if you have any problems, we won't get off the phone until you have it working.
Okay, that's great. Usually it's the other way around. Usually the customer doesn't get off the phone until, but you guys will make sure that things are working.
If you're in the city, we might even come by if you have a problem.
That's amazing. I heard about that. That's not a rumor. You guys actually sometimes make house calls.
Sometimes we do, yes, when they're really in trouble.
It's bad enough. How bad does somebody have to be to get a house call? It doesn't work at all?
It's unbelievable. Sometimes we sign up quite a few people a day, and once in a while we get someone who's just totally in trouble.
Right.
The reason is unknown.
You can say it. Computer illiterate. They don't know what they're doing.
That's exactly right, and we'll come there and show them how to use it.
Well, that's good that you don't berate them. You actually try and help them out, and you probably are helping someone who no one else would help to get on the net,
to get started in the first place, so that's really a good thing to be able to do.
Let's look at some other services, not to put them down too much, but just enough so that people know what we're getting into here.
We've got America Online. Now, a lot of people say, I just want to get an America Online account.
Now, why shouldn't they do that?
Well, it's a good system if you're a computer not literate.
Computer illiterate, yes. Not literate.
Well, that's incorrect.
Right. 212-279-3400. Take advantage of this offer, but some pricing.
You're not able to use any software that's available for the internet. Basically, it's not a standard.
Yeah, you know, I was at a friend's house in California, and he had AOL, and I figured I'd be able to check my mail in 2600 or Escape or wherever I was.
And they don't have Telnet.
You can't Telnet. They don't have Telnet. I thought they said they were on the internet.
Well, they are, but they don't give you full access to the internet.
No, they certainly don't. And they don't give you full access to, like, the English language either, because you can't use certain words, or they get very angry at you.
I can't really use them here either, can I?
No, you can't use them on the radio, because that's an FCC thing, but we don't get into that.
But, yeah, okay. Basically, America Online, I think one of the moderators said,
if you don't hear it on Saturday morning cartoons, then don't use it here.
Wow.
That's how they guide your freedom of speech there.
Yeah, at Escape, we don't censor anyone, period.
And you have access to everything?
Everything and everything on the internet. There's no buzzer.
That's great. That's really great.
I remember, how long have you been around for, about a year and a half?
Almost two years now.
Almost two years. I remember when you first got started, and it's really grown quite a bit since then.
Right. We're about to open up Long Island numbers in about a few weeks.
Yes. And if you're located in Long Island and listening to the show, you'll have local dial-ups available.
This is Nassau County?
Nassau County.
Okay, great. 212-279-3400. Take advantage of this offer, because it really is a really good offer.
I don't think you're going to be able to beat this.
Six months, unlimited access. You can call up tomorrow after making your pledge, or whenever it is it gets processed,
and stay online 24 hours a day for six months, right? I mean, theoretically, you could do that.
Technically, you can, but be kind. No, I'm just kidding.
You know, you'll kill some bandwidth, but there's no limit. We don't, what, keep track of how people...
I don't know how much anyone uses. I don't want to know.
That's good. You don't want to know how much they use. You don't want to know what they're doing, where they're going, who they're talking to.
Exactly.
I mean, I wish everyone had that view. You know, I wish there wasn't this big brother over your shoulder type of mentality that a lot of people seem to feel the need to have when they're running a system.
How about other systems? CompuServe, Prodigy, Delphi.
I mean, they may connect to other systems on the internet, and you don't know what they're doing over there then. It's out of my control.
Right.
But as far as they're using escape, as far as we know, if we're not hacked, no one can see what you're doing.
Yeah, the only thing you'd be concerned of is if your users are being hacked themselves or if their privacy is being invaded, which is always a possibility no matter what system you're on.
Yeah, when you're on the internet, you should consider that you're, like, on a cellular phone.
Uh-huh.
Not quite that bad, is it?
Well, not quite that bad, but close to it, I'll say.
You shouldn't, like, be throwing your credit cards everywhere.
No, definitely do not do that.
But tell us about the other systems, like CompuServe, Delphi.
I mean, are they any better than AOL?
Delphi is text-based.
I don't know.
I just heard they released a graphical interface.
Uh-huh.
But then again, they also charge an hourly rate.
I don't understand how they can charge hourly rates.
I mean, we've reached a stage where virtually all systems have a set fee.
You know, I think that really makes a difference.
Right.
It's flat over here.
You can use as much as you like.
Okay, well, I think all the lines are lit up, so there's a fair chance we'll find out if there's any of these left.
Okay.
So thanks very much for offering this to us and for supporting the radio station.
If people want to contact your system directly, how would they do so?
They can reach ESCAPE at area code 212, telephone number 888-8780 between 10 and 6 p.m. Monday through Friday.
That's voice, right?
That's voice.
And how would they just want to dial it on?
Data is 212-888-8212, and you can log in as guest.
That's a great phone number.
It reads the same forward as backwards.
That's right.
What do they call those things?
A polygram.
For me, it was a lucky number.
I didn't ask for it.
A palindrome.
Yeah.
I knew that.
It's a good thing of the word.
Okay, great.
Well, good luck with ESCAPE, and I'm sure we'll be in touch in the future.
Okay, it's 10 minutes to 11 o'clock.
Please keep those calls coming in, 212-279-3400.
I believe all our lines are tied up right now, so if you get a busy signal, keep trying.
It's good if you get a busy signal.
Well, it's usually good.
Either our phone lines are broken or it means a lot of people are calling and pledging.
No other place where you hear information like this, where you get technical expertise like you do here.
Oh, Blake, you're back.
How did the pledging go?
Were they nice to you?
Oh, they were very nice.
They're going to send me a bill.
I couldn't actually pay for it up front, but I will be receiving a bill in five days or so.
Okay.
But as of this moment, I'm on the subscription list.
Oh, they took you a credit card, didn't they?
Actually, like I said, they're going to send me a bill, so they didn't take any billing information.
I was ready to just sign them a check right there.
Oh, you want to do a check.
Yeah, if you do the check thing, they'll send you a bill.
That's how that works.
Actually, no, I said, you know, they wanted to.
I couldn't pay for a check right now, nor could I get my T-shirt right now, which I was a little disappointed with.
Well, they're not here yet.
Right.
Okay, so.
They're coming.
We'll have them in about a week or so.
Right, exactly.
So, but I look forward to seeing that in however long it takes to get me a T-shirt.
Okay.
And it does feel good knowing that my donation will continue with this show.
It'll, it'll, it'll, I'll shake your hand after the show personally, in fact.
Absolutely.
I'm sure that'll, that'll make you feel good.
And also, the process was not painful.
Nobody yelled at you.
They were polite.
They were nice.
They were very happy to have a live donor.
Uh-huh.
And they'll be very happy to have people over the phone, too.
So, if you call up, you'll, you'll talk to one of these nice people who are, I guess, basically they're listeners, right?
They're listeners that volunteer their time.
Right.
It made me feel good and, you know, because I like this show, I listen to it.
And I think everybody who listens to this show should lend a helping hand just to ensure that we will continue hearing this programming here.
Okay.
All right.
Well, coming up on the hour, we'll be talking a little bit more about the film Hackers and perhaps taking some phone calls as well.
But please keep the phone calls coming in up until 11 so that we can, we can start off on a very good note.
We want to break 2,000 by then.
We're up to 1855 right now.
So, if we, if we're able to top the 2,000 mark by 11, we'll take some phone calls and get some feedback on the Hackers film.
212-279-3400.
Again, the, the two standing, standing offers are for $75.
You can get a 2600 T-shirt with Michelangelo virus and a full year subscription to the Hacker quarterly, 2600.
For $150, you can get a copy, both of those things, the T-shirt and the subscription, as well as a copy of the videotape, which we played excerpts of before.
That was a videotape that featured the writer of the Film Hackers, the director and the producer of the Film Hackers,
as well as, uh, Wynne Schwartow, author of, uh, Terminal Compromise and Information Warfare, um, and writers from Harper's and the Village Voice.
All of that, uh, in a 90-minute video, which, uh, was taped last year.
I think it provides some really interesting historical perspective.
That's, for a pledge of $150, you get that video, the subscription, and the T-shirt.
212-279-3400.
Again, remember, the most important thing is that you're supporting the show, you're supporting the station, you're keeping us going.
And, uh, I don't think anything really matters as much as that.
You know, even if you just pledge $25, that's nothing to be ashamed of.
That's great.
That helps us.
And, uh, we'll send you the, uh, program guide for the radio station so you can find all kinds of other programs that might be interesting to you,
or so that you know what programs to avoid.
You know, it's, it's all up to you.
212-279-3400.
And we'll be back in, uh, in just a couple of minutes.
212-279-3400.
212-279-3400.
So if we, uh, inadvertently said that we gave them all away, we have two left.
For a pledge of $150, you can get six months unlimited access to the internet.
That's for a pledge of $150.
212-279-3400.
To be continued...
Yo, yo, yo, yo, yo, yo, yo.
It's up to you.
Again, ask about our special $75 and $150 packages.
But any pledge is welcome.
And we have other things as well.
212-279-3400.
Remember, there's no other radio station
that will have this kind of show,
that will have this kind of information,
and that will give listeners the voice to air the kinds of things that they air here on WBAI.
212-279-3400. Please call now.
I hear you
Oh
Okay now I don't know what's wrong here
This never happened before
And maybe the internet is saturated
Maybe people have no interest in it
But I mean we gave away those first three like immediately
Like right away
But there's two left still
I mean I figured when I said there were two six month internet access unlimited
You know time and all that kind of thing
That they'd go immediately
But they didn't
Something weird's going on here
Now you can't beat this deal
You just can't do it
Six months
Unlimited access
Unlimited time
And of course you have to be in New York
In the 212-718 area code to take advantage of the local dial-ups
Except for Nassau County which is coming in about a month or so
For $150 you get six months unlimited access to escape.com
So I don't know
212-279-3400
It's baffling
You know it's like we're giving away free money almost
And people have to call and take advantage of this
It's the internet
It's full net access
It's not like
It's not like AOL or CompuServe or Delphi or Genie or any of those places
Because we don't charge by the minute
Actually I'm saying we
When I say
I'm not part of this
I keep saying because I
I guess we're all a team as far as this goes
When we pool our resources
And Roman coming in here and offering this
I don't know
I guess I feel like a team
So I have no connection myself
But anyway
They are offering this completely
Without restriction
Without censorship
Without any kind of
I guess mandate as to what you can and cannot say
Or what groups you can read
Or who you can mail to
Or things like that
So please take advantage of it
212-279-3400
I think you'll find it
You'll find it to be well worthwhile
If you already have an account somewhere else
It might be a good idea to start looking at alternatives
Because maybe you don't have the entire net at your disposal
Maybe you just have a fraction of it
Anyway that's as far as that goes
Also for a different $150 pledge
You can get the Hacker Package is what we're calling it
And that seems to be pretty popular tonight
And we're offering I guess an unlimited number of those
Where basically you'll get the Hacker Video
Which is 90 minutes of people
Various journalists talking about hacking issues
And how hackers can present themselves better
And how they portrayed them in the past
You'll have
You'll see writers from
The Village Voice
Harper's
As well as
Wynne Schwartow
An author
And
The writers of Hackers
Writers, directors, and producers of Hackers the film
Which we're going to be talking about
In just a minute or so
At 212-279-3407
Did you see the film?
Did you like the film?
Et cetera, et cetera
And
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You'll get the Hacker Video
No, you won't get the Hacker Video
You'll get the Hacker T-shirt
With the Michelangelo virus on it
As well as a subscription to the magazine
Actually I'm in error too
The $150 pledge
Oh boy
I just can't keep track of all this
The $150 pledge gets you the video
The subscription and the T-shirt as well
Just call, okay?
Just call the number and ask them
They know it better than me
212-279-3400
I could never be on
Home Shopping Network
I know that right now
But then again
I don't want to be
212-279-3400
Let's get those phone lines lit
And the news tonight
Is not on obviously
As we're doing an extended show
We're doing an extended show
Because this is a special time
Where we're asking for
Listener support
212-279-3400
Also
Off the hook
We'll be moving
Not next week
Next week will be our last show
From 10 to 11 on Wednesday
We'll be moving to Tuesday nights
At 8pm
That's starting October 3rd
So that's a pretty important bit of news
We'll also update people
On the Bernie S situation
In about 20 minutes or so
So
If you have people that you want
To hear the update
Let them know now
That way we don't have to
Keep repeating it throughout the night
So we'll have an update on that situation
212-279-3407
Is the number
If you want to call in now
And air your opinion
As far as
As
The film hackers
I don't know
I thought it was okay
You know
I know a lot of people
On the
On the internet
Are giving it a thumbs down
But
I think
I think it wasn't as bad
As a lot of people
Seem to say it was
But
You know
I'd like to
I'd like to have people
Air their opinion of it first
And then I'll give you my opinion
Okay
212-279-3407
Did you see the film?
Did you like the film?
Et cetera
Good evening
You're on
Good evening
You're on
Yes
Hey Emmanuel
It's Joker
What's going on?
Hey Joker
What's up?
Nada
Just hanging out
Had a late rehearsal
I heard you were going to be
Talking about hackers
So I thought I'd give you guys a call
Okay
Okay
Well I mean
The first thing you said
A lot of people on the net
Were trashing it
Yeah
And I've seen
A lot of people
Trashing it
And it's
You know
It's mostly
These so-called hackers
On the net
Who are trashing it
And I think everybody
Has to realize that
It wasn't really made for us
It was made
To entertain people
Which most movies are
I mean
Any movie about a subculture
Is going to have
Flaws in it
To people in that subculture
So I think
If people just take a step back
And take it for what it is
A film
I think
It's very entertaining
I think the actors
Did a good job
In their roles
And I think
It's about the most
Accurate thing
We've seen
You know
So far from Hollywood
Well now
Of course accuracy
Is the big sticking point
With a lot of people
But as far as
As far as I
I agree with you
The actors I think
Were really good
As far as the
The lesser hackers
You know
The Joey
And
Right
And the
Lord Nikon
And
Those
Those other guys
Of course
The serial killer
Slash Emmanuel Goldstein
Character
Was hilarious
Brighteningly close
Yeah
I guess so
These people
Really made me laugh
And I think
They captured the spirit
Of what hackers are
Kind of like
A wacky zany
Crowd of people
Now you say
The
I agree with that
Now you say
The under characters
And the lower characters
What did you think
Of the leads
Of the film
Well you know
The leads were okay
But to be honest
I don't
I didn't
I think the lesser
Characters really
Stole the show
Yeah I think
They weren't as
Interesting to me
You know
I think in a lot
Of cases
In a lot of movies
You have that
You have the
Character actors
As opposed to
The two leads
Who I think
Played more
This hard edge
Than
You know
The fun of
Hacking
Right
I think
They were both
Sitting there
Trying to be
Badasses
Yeah exactly
They were just
Kind of sulking
The whole time
But
But Fisher Stevens
I thought was
Really good
As a villain
Stevens is always
Good in whatever
He does
He was very evil
And just very calm
And funny at times
I think you know
If this film is guilty
Of anything
It's guilty of trying
To do too much
In too short a period
Of time
There was a lot
Going on there
Yeah apparently
You may want to
Tell your listeners
About you know
Some of the stuff
That was cut out
If any of you
Have read the book
I read the book
After I saw the movie
Just because I wanted
To see you know
What the differences
Were
And there's a really
Really cool scene
That I think
Would have developed
The relationship
Between Dade
And the plague
A little bit more
Is the scene
Where he changes
The virus
When it's on screen
Right
That you said
They filmed
But they cut out
Of the movie
Well yeah
There was a scene
Where the plague
The evil hacker guy
The dark side hacker
Well actually
He's the establishment
In the film
But we know him
As dark side
Because he's
Cheating his company
Right
He comes to Dade
The protagonist
And shows him
The virus that he wrote
When he was 11 years old
And in front of him
Changes I think
A greater than sign
To a less than sign
Something like that
And Dade is astonished
He says oh yeah
Of course
It won't work
Because of that
Right
But no
There were some
I mean
There were some
Really enlightening
Parts
I think
Just as in the net
Apple's got
Product placement
Which is really funny
Because Apple
You know
Macintoshes get
The big thumbs down
From
Yeah but you know
The thing is
Macintosh supplies
All the films
With computers
And that's why
You see them everywhere
It's called
Product placement
Coke has the same
Thing in this movie
I know
It's unfortunate
But you know
It's weird
Yeah Coke has a lot
Of product placement
Product placement
But so does Jolt
Yeah
That was weird
Yeah but I think
I think Jolt was
Written into the script
And so they had to
Go to them
And say
How can we use it
And I'm sure
Coke said
Hi
When you're doing
This film
Here's a billion dollars
And here's some
Coke for everybody
On the set
Yeah
You know I mean
That's something
That's inherent
To the movie industry
But I think
It kind of stinks
That it works that way
I want to see a film
Where you see both
A Coke and a Pepsi
Can in the same film
Right
That's really what
I'd like to see
Right
Because then you know
That it's not
You know it's not
Going to be biased
One way or another
Yeah I think
I think the one thing
That does need to be mentioned
Even for the people
That haven't seen it
Is the use of
Our favorite word
In the film
And that's
Elite
Oh boy
Oh man
This was hilarious
Yeah
I mean I'm not going to
Go too much into detail
For those who haven't seen it
But they blow this word
Way out of proportion
I mean
That was just funny
Some of the dialogue
Was a little
A little over the top
I think
Just a little
On the cheesy side
Yeah
But that's to us
I mean people
Who are you know
Going to see the movie
Well you see
That's why I'm really curious
About people who are not hackers
Like if non-computer hackers
Out there could call us
And tell us what they thought
Of the film
And you know
I'll tell you
It was really odd
Because I was
I was sitting on
I was sitting on the net
The night after
You know Friday
Night late
Slash Saturday morning
On IRC
On pound hack
And I was sitting there
And talking to his friends
And all of a sudden
The channel just got flooded
With all these people
That you know
None of the people
Who have been there for a while
Had ever seen before
They just discovered hackers
Hi
How are you guys doing
I just saw the film
And it was really great
And I wanted to know
What was going on
Well you know
There's a channel now
That has quite a lot of traffic
Going through it
It's pound hackers
Yeah I saw that one
People just see the film
And there's pound hacking too
Yeah
But I don't know
I guess part of it's good
And part of it's bad
You know
We've kind of remained
Out of the light
I guess a bit
And I think
You more than anybody
Is probably going to feel
A lot more media attention
Toward you know
What we're involved in
Well it got kind of crazy
On Thursday
When the USA Today piece
Came out
All of a sudden
I couldn't believe
Many people read that paper
You know
I've never looked at it
In my life
Thank goodness
That was more about you
And what you're doing
At the radio station
Rather than you
And how you related
To the film hackers
It wasn't
It didn't seem to me
To be a plug for the film
It's more for you
Yeah
It caught me by surprise
Actually
Because you know
I talk to reporters
You know
I answer their questions
And you know
Sometimes it works out
Sometimes I never hear
Anything from them again
It's just kind of weird
You never know
What to expect
Right
Okay well
I'm going to get off line
And hopefully let some
Non-hackers call
And see what's going on
Okay well thanks for calling
Say what's up
To everybody in the studio
And I'll talk to you guys later
Alright take care
Bye
It was Joker giving us
His views on the film
212-279-3407
For people who are
Who saw the film
Hackers
And what is it
We have no calls
How is that possible
We always have calls
We lose all of our listeners
212-279-3407
That's better
Something's wrong
With the phones here
Yeah we got a full
Switchboard now
Also okay
If those of you are shy
You don't want to get
On the air
Please call up
And pledge
212-279-3400
We're up to 2780
It is my fond wish
That we clear
3000 tonight
Please
Help make that possible
212-279-3400
And so I don't
Waste everyone's time
By going through
The premiums again
Just call up
And ask about them
And the people there
Will be more than happy
To tell you what's going on
Good evening
You're on
Hi
How you doing
What
How you doing
Fine how are you
Okay
Good
You see the film
Uh yeah
What did you think
Uh it sucked
You didn't like it
Huh
Okay
Why did you like it
What
Why didn't you like it
Why didn't I like it
Yeah
I hated the really cheesy
I'm flying through the city
And turned into a microchip scene
Yes
Where I could see the data
On those glass screens
Uh huh
Yeah that was kind of weird
I'll give you that
And you know
They overdid it
With the city
Turning into the chips
I mean yeah
You know you got it
The first time
It didn't have to
Keep being done
Over and over again
Yeah
What about
What about the overall plot
What do you think of that
The overall plot
Yeah
I saw the script
It was much better
Yeah
Did you see the net too
Oh I was listening to the radio
It's freaking me out
Oh yeah
You're on six seconds
Five minutes behind
Yeah you're on delay here
Yeah I'm sorry about that
Uh yeah
I did see the net
As a matter of fact
I saw it twice
I guess you liked the net better huh
Yeah
Actually I called
For a different reason though
Oh okay
I went to the Unix Expo today
Okay
And it was really frightening
There were all these security people
And the NCSA had this really huge
Like
We're trying to have this really huge demonstration
Everybody's handle
Everybody's like certain keywords
Words everything
Like
And they log everything
And like
When companies get
Companies hire them
To get this information
And they'll pay like
No my roommate has it on
Ah
I can't hear
I've heard
They have these like
They'll give you a hard copy
Or they'll give you email
To the companies
Of what they found
About your company
That they heard mentioned
I've been hearing rumors
They also have access
To private email
That's what I heard too
That's what
I was told
I had a nice long conversation
With the guy
They had a
Break in last night
Uh huh
Well now
That's uh
That's kind of disturbing
You know
You say that
They're not letting
Certain people know about this
They don't want anyone
To know about it
They say it's something
That even hackers
Don't know about
Well it sounds like
We're starting to
Find out about it
Yeah
That's why I called
Yeah
Now
Do you have any idea
What this is called?
Yeah
Um
Shoot
I have it here somewhere
It's good that you're
Finding out these things
By the way
Oh yeah
I was
It was really bizarre
I walked in
And they knew exactly
What I was there for
Were you wearing
A 2600 shirt or something?
No I wasn't
I was really
Freaked out
Yeah
I can understand that
Um
Where's it
Where's it
Where's it
Where's it
Ah
I can't find
NCSA
There are some people
In the room
Who know exactly
What you're talking about
Too I should point out
So uh
Somebody does know
What I'm talking about
Yeah
So it appears to be true
That this thing exists
Don't let your information
Become a pirate's booty
Wow
Do you want to read that to us?
Um
Today's environment
Dictates all corporations
Indeed any organization
Maintain the tightest
Security measures
Think about it
Your company has
A multitude of networks
Internet connections
PCs
Information in telephone systems
And records
That are ripe for the picking
We'll assess some of the risks
And suggest how to predict
Your valuable assets
From hackers
Crackers
And other bad guys
Wow
There was um
They won't
They won't
What was it called?
What was it called?
Shoot
I can't remember
The name of the program
But uh
I happened to see it
Okay
It was based on windows
Well now um
Try and get this information
To us
When you do find it
Because uh
I assume you have access
To the net right?
Uh yeah
Except I was going to
Get the information
Except that all my
Accounts are dead tonight
Oh really?
Wow
And for some reason
Every single account that I had
I couldn't dial into
Really?
Yeah
That's an ominous turn isn't it?
Yeah
Very ominous
Wow
Um
Well assuming that uh
That you survive
Uh
When your net accounts
Come back up
Just uh
Email something over to us
At 2620.com
I promise I'd email
Something over to them too
Yeah
Oh really?
Yeah
Well they'll get your
Your name that way
Oh they already have my name
Oh really?
That's what I told them
My name was
Uh huh
Well that's good
Uh and where are you calling from?
Um
Oh you don't have to tell us
If you don't want to
Queens
Queens okay
I used to hang out there
Used to hang out where?
At the show
Oh really?
Yeah
At our show
What's your name?
Uh Kira
Oh okay
Yeah
I know I know you
Yeah I know you
Alright well um
Well please get us an information
Okay um
I guess I'll send it to 2600
Yeah
Send it to Emanuel
2600.com
Okay
Alright
Thanks for calling
Uh take care
Alright
212-279-3407
Good evening you're on
Hello?
Yes go ahead
You're on the air
Hi Emanuel
This is uh
Phony
And I got RF Burns
Here with me
And we're the guys
Who shot the video
Of you in SummerCon
Oh really?
Whoa
Oh this is uh
This is something interesting
Now uh
You're just the guys
I want to talk to
Great
Now um
I assume you're aware
Of all the stuff
That's been going on
Right?
Right
Now the person
That was uh
That was gathering
All this information
Turned out to be
A federal informant
So that naturally
Uh put some suspicion
On what that video
Was all about
Well what happened is
Uh we went to SummerCon
And uh
We contacted um
Uh the interviewer guy
And he seemed to know everybody
So uh
We wanted to do this documentary
On the community
And um
Uh
We set up all the interviews
And you know
That's about it
But
We're not federal agents
And uh
The video is
Is kind of
You know
What's happening
In the hacker community
In the summer of 95
It's not like
Intelligence gathering
For the federal government
Okay well
First of all
You understand how
Something like that
Would be bad
If it was done
By the federal government
Right
Oh yeah
Okay so you understand
The concern that we have
Oh yeah
Alright
Now
My question is
The guy that was
The federal informant
I don't want to mention
Names here
Because you know
A lot of stuff
Is still happening
But
What kind of
What kind of influence
What kind of control
Did he have
Over this whole project
What kind of access
Did he have
Um
None
He
We met him
At a summer con
And um
He
We basically
You know
Were hanging out
And he said
You know
He was in the community
For a while
And he set up
Some interviews
And that's about it
He wasn't
We were also
At DEF CON shooting
And at a couple
Other places
And he wasn't there
So it was pretty much
And we met him
At the show
Right
Well
That's interesting
Because the impression
He gave
Was that he was
The person organizing
And you're saying
That's not true
Definitely not
We met him there
Uh huh
Oh yeah
Definitely not
What do you mean
The impression
He gave there
Or what
At uh
At summer con
That's the impression
That I got
That a lot of other people
Got was that
He was the person
In charge of the video
Uh
No
Definitely not
Uh huh
Well obviously
We all wanted
The interview
We wanted to
Interview and
And uh
Find out what's
Going on in the community
So
We hooked up with him
And he says
Hey look at
I'll ask the questions
And you just
Guys roll tape
And so we said
Great
Wow
So uh
What are your feelings
After all this has happened
When you first heard the news
Um
Well I
I saw it in the
New York Times
And that
That's basically
Um
How I found out about it
And I was kind of like
Wow
Pretty shocked
And um
You know
I don't know that much
More about it
Except um
There was this big
Press conference
And blah blah
And
Big crackdown
And that
So you know
Um
I don't really know
You know
All the logistics
Or anything like that
And we just felt
Somebody purchasing
This videotape
Would find it of interest
Uh
Obviously
It increased value
To see uh
Uh
The interview
And hear this person
Interviewing you
Uh huh
Well you know
I think the best thing
At this point
Would be for you guys
To get uh
To get the word out
Onto the net
Because
There's a lot of
Uh
Suspicion going on
Right now
There's a lot of
Uh
You know
People don't really
Know what the full
Story is
Right
I think you know
Full disclosure
At this point in time
Is probably the best
Policy
Uh
What
What are your plans
Uh
For this video
Um
Well
I'm
I'm doing all the editing
I'm out here
I'm in California
Right now
And I'm in New Jersey
Um
So I'm
We shot some stuff
At uh
At Defcon
So it's going to be like
One big compilation tape
And I'm just kind of
We also shot some stuff
At Area 51
And I'm finally going
Through all the footage
Um
So
I'm
Editing it together
It'll probably be done
I'm hoping
Within the next two weeks
Or so
Um
And
I'll
Post a message
To all 2600
And
Something like that
It'll probably be in like
Probably take out an ad
In private line
And some other magazines
Saying you know
Video
It's available
Okay
But uh
You're saying that
That the person that turned out
To be the federal
Informant had no access
To the videos
Himself
Definitely not
Nope
Nope
Okay well I'm glad you called
To clear that up
And uh
We met him
At the conference
I mean I was all
I was new to the conference
I uh
Actually it was the first conference
I ever attended
And we both own
Video production companies
I'm here in New Jersey
And the other fellow
Was in uh
California
And we both own
Production companies
And we said
Hey this is a really
Neat idea
And actually I met him
In the lobby
Down in the lobby
Uh
When he was checking in
Now you're aware
That uh
This informant
Also is from New Jersey
Right
Oh very aware
Yeah
Now did he make
Any contact with you
Afterwards
Well I can't go
Into detail
But uh
Why is that
Well uh
It's
It's
Really
I mean
I cannot go
Into detail
Because it's not
My
My uh
In other words
I can't divulge
Any more than
That I was told
To divulge
Told by who
Uh
The fellow that
Was interviewing
Interviewing you
What I'm saying is
All I'm asking is
Did he contact you
Afterwards
Yes we've been
In contact
Okay
And uh
When was the last
Time you talked to him
Oh
A couple
At least a couple
Days ago
After the uh
After he goes
Well so now
Basically he said to us
So now
You know
Uh
Why I was there
And who I
What I
Who I was
Representing
I said well
That's you know
Obviously
I said you know
That
I hope you didn't
Go around telling
People that we
Were involved in it
We were just
Simply videotaping
He goes yes
I
He goes I
Realized that
So he said
Uh
He goes I don't
Want to get you
Any more involved
Than
Than
Than
Uh huh
And what's going
On
So I mean
It's strange
How we
Go to this
Conference
We're there
To just collect
Some information
Have some fun
Put a cool
Tape together
Uh
We went to
Area 51
Shot some
Neat video there
And uh
Just we thought
It would be a fun
And interesting
Tape
And all of a
Sudden
It turns out
That this person
We've met
Is
Is uh
Is working
For the government
Uh huh
Now do you think
You were targeted
By him
Was he
Not
I mean
It was
It was
It was
Totally a fluke
That
That we
Were in there
We weren't
Even gonna
I actually
Drove here
From New Jersey
To the
To the convention
And um
I just
Happened to be
Uh
Down in the lobby
And everybody's
Messing with the
Elevators
And screwing
With the phones
And having a
Fun time
And enjoying
Themselves
And um
I mean
He just seemed
To um
Seemed to be
Established in the
Community
I mean
You knew him
Before that
That interview
Didn't you
Uh
Well I didn't
Know him
But I
Noticed him
Let's just put it
That way
Right
He saw us
With the video
Gear
Running around
With the video
Gear
And he said
Hey I could get
You some really
Cool interviews
I know the guy
That's putting
This whole convention
Together
And I know some
Pretty heavyweights
Pretty big people
In this industry
And we were
Like fantastic
What a great
Connection
So I'm all new
Like I said
Before to
Computers
And things like
That
Again
As I stated
Before
I own a
Video production
Company
And I put
Together
Instructional
Videotapes
And how to
Videotapes
And information
Videotapes
And I figured
This would be
A new
Venture
For the company
To get into
Of interest
Because there's
A lot of
A lot of
Awareness
Of computers
Well how did
You hear of the
Conference
Well I heard
Of the conference
Through
Through several
People
First of all
I've received
The magazine
And I started
Getting into it
I'm very heavy
Into electronics
And radio
Communications
And I don't
Know if you
Remember me
I was the
One that was
Going around
With that
Radio that
Connects into
Cordless phones
Yes I do
Remember that
So that
Was me
So obviously
There was a lot
Of attention
There when
I had that
And people
Came over
And said
Wow what is
This thing
How does it
Work
And it just
Detracted a lot
Of attention
And it was
A big hit
Well that could
Get you into
Trouble couldn't
It
Well so can
A lot of
Other things
Get you into
Trouble
Right but I'm
Saying walking
Around with that
And publicly
Displaying it
I mean
You know if
A fed wanted
To be a real
Jerk about it
He could get
You into
Absolutely
Yeah there's
Nothing legal
About it
And was that
At any time
Held over your
Head by this
Guy
No no no no
No I mean
That's I mean
That's the last
Thing
It was actually
Of insignificance
I mean
From what I
Understand
It's cellular
Phone fraud
They're going
After not
Somebody messing
With a cordless
49 megahertz
Telephone
So the
The big
Ticket is
They
You know
I
From what I
Understand
They're going
After these
People with
A vengeance
That are
Staling pairs
And the
M.I.N.
And whatever
Else
They
I assume
You heard
What I said
Before about
The person
That was
Arrested for
Selling an
ESN reader
One that he
Had already
Bought from a
Catalog
And that was
The only
The only charge
Against him
No I wasn't
Aware of that
I didn't tune
In earlier
Unfortunately
There are a lot
Of questions
Being raised
About this
Exactly what
It was they
Were looking
For and
Who it is
That they
Got
Things like
That but I
Think the
Best thing
For you guys
Is to be
As open as
Possible
And to
Get your
Word out of
The net
As soon as
Possible
Too
Which we
Are and
That's why
We called
You
I mean
That's
Essentially
Why we
Called you
I mean
We couldn't
Believe it
We're like
You know
It's
Unbelievable
That this
Even took
Place
I'm like
Well this
Should increase
The value
Of the
Videotape
And this
Should have
An interest
People should
Now want to
Watch
Well I'm
Just I'm
Relieved that
There's going
To be a
Videotape
I thought
We wouldn't
See it again
You know
Oh it's
Definitely
Going to be
Out
You know
Just look
For it
It's definitely
Going to be
Out
And it
Has a lot
Of information
On there
That I
Don't want
To get
Into
Over the
Phone
Right now
But it
Would be
Definitely
Worth checking
Out and
Looking at
Well let's
To give
Them a
Preview
Or all
The footage
Or something
Like that
Are you
Prepared for
That
Well
They don't
Know who
We are
And we're
Not going to
Help them
Find us
Okay well
That's the
Right attitude
Yeah the
Video is not
Intended for
Them
It's you know
It's basically
You know just
Showing cool
Stuff that
Was happening
This summer
That there
Will be some
Stuff on
You know on
This whole
Incident
Uh huh
Are you on
A cellular
Phone
Yeah he
Just dropped
He's on a
Cellular phone
Isn't he
Yep
That's exactly
What he was
On
Wow
Alright well
I guess I'll
Let you wrap
It up on
Your end
And I
Figured I'd
Just give you
A call
Okay well
I appreciate
That
Some stuff
Out there
And again
It was
Purely coincidence
And we
Couldn't believe
It either
I was just
I just
Was taken
Totally by
Surprise
And
And
I'm sure
There's more
Information to
Come
Oh yeah
I'm sure
This saga
Will continue
Quite a ways
And there'll
Be all kinds
Of other
Surprises as
Well
Well thanks
For taking
Our call
And if we
Get a chance
We'll give you
A call back
Okay keep us
Updated
Thanks
Thank you
What a bizarre
What a bizarre
Story
Someday somebody
Will make a
Film about it
What a bizarre
Country
Anyway
Fiberoptic
You're here
Yes
Welcome
I'm here
Welcome
Did you
You've heard
All this
The craziness
About the
Film at
SummerCon
Video at
SummerCon
That was
Allegedly being
Done by the
Person who was
A federal
Informant here
In New York
And some
People were
Concerned about
What that
Film was going
To be used
For
No I didn't
Hear very much
About that at
All
Well it's
It's happening
It's happening
Well you heard
About the raids
Right the
Secret Service raids
Went on last
Week
Which raids
I heard of a
Number of raids
Well this was
Not the AOL
Child pornography
Raids which is
A whole other
Kettle of fish
Yeah
But this
This was the
This was the
Supposedly cellular
Phones
Right
I thought that
Was the FBI
No that was
Secret Service
Was it really
Yeah
Oh okay
And so
The person that
Turned out to be
A federal informant
Was actually somebody
That was
Helping with this
Video
And up until
This call
We thought it
Was a person
That was in
Charge
Huh
So it's a
Relief to know
That that's not
Necessarily the
Case
So we'll just
Have to keep
Abreast of this
Story and see
What's going on
Weeks ahead
Back to the
Film Hackers
You saw it
What did you
Think
Sure I saw it
I thought
It was a
Really entertaining
Movie
I thought that
It did a lot
Of justice to
The attitudes
And mannerisms
Of hackers
Of course
You can't
Consider it
To be
100% realistic
Because nobody's
Going to go to
A movie theater
And read
Someone else's
Screen for an
Hour and 45
Minutes
No
So obviously
They had to
Spruce up the
Way computers
Looked in the
Movie
And they sure
Oh yeah
They really
Spruced it up
So it was
Highly graphical
And visual
The actual
Hacking that
Was being done
What did you
Think of the
Actual plot
The actual
Story
Well yeah
The actual
Plot was
I mean
It was
It was a
Good story
I thought
I mean
The elements
Of the plot
Seemed to
Fit together
As far as
The plausibility
I mean
You know as
Well as I do
That various
Elements of
The plot
Were based on
Information
That
And stories
That we
Provided
So I mean
At least to
Some degree
You could say
That the movie
Was loosely
Based on
Reality
At least
In the
Elements of
The plot
As far as
That goes
Yeah
There were
Quite a few
Little things
In there
That I think
A lot of
People might
Not have
Caught
That were
Based on
Reality
If anyone
Has any
Questions
If they
Think they
Know something
There was a
Call
We'll either
Verify it
Or we won't
Comment on it
212-279-3407
I think
Overall
That's number
To get on
In the air
By the way
And if you
Want to make
A pledge
212-279-3400
I think
Overall
The message
Of the film
Was really
Good
Because it
Sort of
Sent out
The message
That hackers
Are just
Into exploring
Learning
Maybe
You know
Doing one
Better than
The other
Person
And the
Federal authorities
Just do not
Get it
Nope
And I think
That was
Sent out
That message
Was definitely
Sent out
We'll see
What kind
Of response
It gets
Okay
Good evening
You're on
The air
Hello
I had a
Quick question
About something
That you mentioned
On the show
A couple
Months ago
Actually
We're trying
To keep it
To the film
We're trying
To keep it
To the film
Hackers
Make it
Very quick
Very quick
Okay
I was just
Sorry
I tried
Calling some
Numbers in
The 710
Area code
And listening
To the error
Messages
And at the
End I got
A female voice
Giving the error
Message
And at the
End a male
Voice suddenly
Cut in
And said
2126T
Yeah
Which piqued
My curiosity
So I tried
Calling it
From some
Different locations
And got a
Different code
At the end
Each time
Fascinating isn't
It
Well
Fiber can
Explain exactly
What those
Little numbers
Mean
Unfortunately
It's nothing
Particularly
Very interesting
All it's telling
You is a
Little bit of
Information about
How the call
Was routed
Obviously
The first
Three digits
Refer to the
Area code
Right
The
For example
2T
6T
All different
Letters and
Numbers
Basically
Is a
Simple coding
System
That AT&T
Uses
To indicate
Exactly
Which
4ESS
Toll center
The call
Was routed
Through
Now the
T stands
For what
T usually
Stands for
Toll
Okay
So it's
Always a
T
Yeah
I'm trying
To think
I've never
Heard anything
Other than
A T
Trying to
Remember if
There's
Anything else
No that's
That's
Correct
With
You know
The local
Phone company
Anyway
Yeah
I believe
That it is
Just a
Number
Plus T
Alright
Now
For future
Calls
Please
Keep it
To the
Subject
We're talking
About the
Film
Hackers
We know
A lot
Of people
Saw it
So we
Have something
We can
All talk
About
212-279-3407
If you want
To make a
Pledge
Please call
Us
212-279-3400
Good evening
You're on
Hello
Yes
Go ahead
Yes
I want to
Talk about
Hackers
Oh good
Oh good
Okay
You know
That's
That federal
Government
Again
They cut
In and
They won't
Let him
Finish
Wow
It's that
It's that
Big computer
In Utah
Doing that
Yeah
It's
Big daddy
Good evening
You're on
The air
Hello
Yes
Go ahead
Go ahead
You're on
The air
Eric
Hi
It's
Pam
I don't
Have anything
To say
About
Hackers
Oh
I just
Wanted to
Say
Thank you
For the
Well wishes
And before
You go
Off the air
Could you
Say something
About what's
Happened with
Rops
Since you
Last did
What's
Happened
With
You mean
Access for
All
Yeah
Well we
Have Bill
SF here
I guess
He can
Probably
Answer that
Better than
Anybody
Okay
Cool
I'll hang
Up
And just
Let you
Guys
Go
Okay
Bill
Make it
Make it
Fast
Because we
Want to
Talk about
Hackers
Which
Few people
Seem able
You're asking
About the
Scientology
Situation
Right
That's right
Hello
She's gone
She's gone
Yes
Okay so
We'll just
Talk about
What
Where does
It stand
Tell us
Where it
Stands
Where it
Stands
I talked
To
Niels
Who is
One of
My housemates
Out there
And
He said
That
That
Basically
Scientology
Is
I can't
Say the
Word here
In the
States
It can
In Holland
But
Scientology
Has been
Totally
Made
To look
Like dirt
The Dutch
Government
Is going
To make
Moves
And is
Moving
Rapidly
To revoke
Them of
Their status
Of being
A church
And
Enforcing
Them to
Pay all
Back
Taxes
Wow
Watch out
Scientology
That is
Something
And I
Also
You are
About to
Be had
I also
Heard
That
That
That
Was it
The
Fisher
Affidavit
That
Document
They were
After
That's
All over
The net
It's all
Over
They can't
Stop
You're
All over
Scientology
Wow
Okay
You better not
Touch me
That's what
Happens
When
You mess
With
Hackers
Particularly
Dutch
Hackers
So
Okay
Thanks for
The update
Let's see if
Anybody out
There has seen
The film
Want to talk
About the film
Good evening
You're on the air
Hello
Yes go ahead
Yeah there's a
Delay
Sorry
It's okay
I wanted to
Talk about
The role
Of the woman
Kate
Yes
Okay
Sorry
There's a
Delay
I have to
Turn my
Yeah you
Gotta turn
Your radio
Down
You'll be
Hopelessly
Confused
Hold on
I didn't
Think I
Was going
To get
Through
Sorry
Okay
Her name
Was
Acid
Burn
Right
Yes
Acid
Burn
Yeah
I'm not
A hacker
By the
Way
I just
Thought
There was
A strange
Contradiction
In that
She seemed
To be
Really
Good
Technologically
Like
Crash override
But
At the same
Time she was
Expected to be
Feminine
And there's
That didn't
Make a lot
Of sense
I mean
Where he
Says like
You should
Wear a dress
On our date
Or at the
End
It's like
The old
Traditional
Right but
Those were his
Expectations
Not hers
Right
But what I'm
Saying is
In the movie
It's
Not clear
Like she
There's
She
Acts
Differently
At one point
In the
Grand Central
Station
Scene she's
Like telling
The guys
What to do
And then
At the end
Like she's
Acting
Feminine
More
Right
I don't know
It was
It just
Got contradictory
I don't
I don't know
How better
To spell it
Out except
It made him
Look
More backward
And less
Believable
That he
Would have
An image
Of women
That way
Yeah
Well you know
I've seen
That many
Many times
With male
Characters
In real life
And their
Image of
Females
It degrades
Them so much
They have
These traditional
Views
And you know
Females are
Not capable
Of certain
Things
And they
Have to
Behave in
This particular
Manner
I mean I
Don't think
It was really
Brought out
That much
In the film
But I
Do agree
With you
That was
An indication
Of it
There
Is
You know
Wearing a
Dress
Why is
That so
Important
Yeah I
Mean it
Was far
More interesting
When she
Was really
Like the
Guys
Doing you
Know what
They like
There could
There shouldn't
Have been a
Double standard
Where they
Could be
Themselves and
There wasn't a
Dress code
I mean mostly
Through the movie
She's in pants
Right
And I thought
That was good
But it was
Still more of a
Double standard
Toward her
And the fact
That she was
Just one
And there were
Four of them
Right
Well do you
Think that's a
Double standard
Of the film
Or a double
Standard of society
Well the film
Reflects that
Of the society
But maybe it
Was wrong of me
To expect that
In the hacker
World it would
Be different for
Women
Maybe that was
Wrong to think
I'm not sure
I'd like to hear
From hacker women
How it is
I can't speak
For them
I'm just curious
Because it
Just makes the
Guys seem
Less believable
If that's how
They see women
See like it's
If they can see
Women that
Backwardly
It kind of
Perpetuates that
View of the
Male scientist
Who can be
Great at the
Lab and then
Comes home and
Treats his wife
Or girlfriend
Or something like
Shit you know
Or sorry like
Crap but that's
What I wanted to
Say about the movie
Well okay
Now we're asking
A lot of people
This actually as
Far as the
Ending of the
Film and a lot
Of people don't
Seem to like the
Ending because it
Seemed kind of
Cheesy how would
You do the
Ending differently
Well I would
Make her continue
To be herself
There are
Different times
In the film
Where she seems
To be herself
Like again
Not this double
Standard where
She's expected
To be more
Feminine and the
Guys can just
Be themselves
That's what I
Wanted to focus
On if she were
More like she is
In the beginning
Of the film
Right they accept
Her on her own
Terms it seems
That way I mean
I didn't like the
Fact that her mom
Like wrote self
Help books for
Yeah if she came
Off like well off
And a snob and
All that but I was
More interested in
Real hacker women
And how it really
Is you know I
Assume that a lot
Of it is very
Solitary but I
Could be wrong
About that
Nonetheless I was
Just hoping that
Maybe the double
Standards weren't as
Bad or that
Progress had been
Made in those
Circles for women
And there were
Less double standards
Okay well thanks
For the input
Okay thanks for
The show
Alright take care
Interesting view
Well I don't see
Any double standard
Going on
No
I mean all
Throughout the movie
All the other
Hackers revered Kate
Right
They didn't want
To tell Crash
Override who she
Was when he
First asked
Have you ever
Heard of acid burn
Right
They didn't tell
Him they thought
It was funny
That he didn't
Know
And then I mean
They made a bet
They basically
Made a wager
It was a contest
Right
He was going to
Wear a dress
Or she was
You notice that
It changed midway
Through the film
And I don't know
If the significance
Of this was
Caught by most people
But the original
Bet was that
What was it
You have to
You become my slave
Yeah right
She said you become
My slave if I win
And if Dade won
Right
Then she would have
To go on a date
With him
Right
Then they revised
It later on
So that he said
If I win
You have to wear
You have to wear
A dress on our date
Right
She said if I win
You have to wear
A dress on our date
All of a sudden
She's agreeing
That there's going
To be a date
You know
Whereas before
It wasn't an assumed
Thing that there was
Going to be a date
I suppose
But I mean
That was at the point
Where they were tied
60 to 60
And they needed
To up the stakes
Right
It was interesting
Yeah
Kind of weird
But I see her point
I see her point
To a degree
Yeah to a degree
I don't think
It was really
I don't think
They made the movie
Come off as being
Chauvinistic
Or anything like that
I mean
Would it have been
Any worse or better
If the girl won
And the guy lost
And he had to wear
The dress
Would we be
Pandering to some
Stereotypical
Thing that
That male hackers
Are homosexuals
Or something
I mean
I don't see any
Double standard
Going on
Alright let's go
To another call
Good evening
You're on
Go ahead
Okay
This is how it works
Folks
You gotta talk
When I answer the phone
When I say
Good evening
You're on
That means
You know
If you hear me
Say that through the phone
Not through the radio
Then that means
Go ahead
Good evening
You're on
Yes
Manuel
How you doing
Go ahead
How you doing today
Pretty good
About the movie
Hackers
Yes
How did you feel
About the way
That Emmanuel
Goldstein
Was portrayed in it
Well now
Of course
There's
The differing
Opinion
As to how
Accurate that was
First of all
That character
Was not me
He was not
Supposed to be me
He simply
Used that name
And I thought
It was kind of
Clever
The way that
That turned out
To be his
Real name
His name
In the film
His hacker name
Was serial killer
Spelled with a c
But his real name
Was Emmanuel
Goldstein
To me
That implies
That somehow
He hacked
The system
To make his
Real name
Emmanuel
Goldstein
Which I thought
Was kind of funny
I thought
The character
Was probably
One of the best
Characters of the film
Because this guy
Was really
Really funny
Yeah I found
That interesting too
I didn't know
That that was
His real name
He was not
Particularly the one
Into 9X
No that was
Who was the other guy
That was Phantom Freak
Phantom Freak
Right he was
The king of 9X
Or whatever
He was still in jail
At the end of the movie
Yeah now that's
Another thing
We figured this out
Because they cut
The film in a weird way
They cut out the scene
Where he got out of prison
So if you look at
The film the way it is now
He's still there
Yeah they never
Actually let him out
No
I think that's
Opening up for a sequel
Actually
I enjoyed the movie
Myself
I thought it was
Great the way
They made it
And they really
Brought out the opinion
About the way
The feds look
Towards everything
Yeah you see
That's what we
Tried to do
Now a couple of us
Were consultants
For the film
I gave them input
That was really
All I did
A lot of other people
Did much more work
Than I did
But I just tried
To get the feeling
Across to them
To say
Look this is how it is
This is how hackers
View this
This is how we are
Viewed by the authorities
And you know
There's a lot
I would have done
Differently
There's a lot
I advised them
Not to do
That they did
Anyway
But I think
The most important
Part which is
The message
The message
Managed to get out
Yes I think
The only aspect
Of the film
I didn't like
Was the way
That they stretched
That word elite
Yeah that was awful
I agree with you there
That was all
When he said
I think you're elite
In the swimming pool scene
At the end
There was audible groans
In the audience
I was with
I was with a bunch
Of hackers seeing it
And it was
Oh this is
This is awful
I mean
The audience was
Particularly
Not towards that side
You saw it
With a non-technical audience
So how did they
Did they laugh
At the right moments
What
Not that many
Some did
Not that many
Had any idea
What was going on
To begin with
So was it a confused
Audience walking out
At the end
Yeah for the most part
A lot of humor
In there
That you have to pick up
Stuff that normally
Wouldn't be picked up there
Didn't know
About the subject
How would you do
The ending differently
The ending was
A little empty
I would probably
Well I guess
You'd think about it a lot
That's a good
That's a good start
Anyway
Alrighty
But
Alright thanks for the input
Alright have a good one
You too
Alright that's
About 11 minutes
To 12 o'clock
The last 11 minutes
Of Off the Hook
We're up to
$3,205
Which is great
It's really
Really good
And I said
If we got up to
$3,000
I'd stop begging
And I will
But I just want to
Remind people
That if they still
Want to call
They can
You're still begging
Well I'm not begging
Anymore
Because I'm just
Telling people
I'm informing people
That if they want
The special packages
That we still have
A few of
They can call
212-279-3400
And it will make
A big difference
For the radio station
And for the program
So those lines
Are open
Let's go back
To the call online
See if anyone's there
Good evening
You're on
Oh I didn't hit the button
Good
Oh I did hit the button
There's nobody there
Okay try this one
Good evening
You're on
Hello I want to
Talk about hackers
Yes go ahead
You're going to
Hang up again
Aren't you
Huh
Okay
You sounded like
The guy before
That hung up
I did I did
Hung up
My phone got
Messed up
But anyway
I just saw
Hackers on Friday
And I was
I mean
I'm very upset
With how
They're over
Commercializing the
Internet
And how you see
Movies like
The Nets
And how that
Really didn't have
Anything to do
With it I don't
Think
It was totally
Oblivious to what
Was really going on
They over
Commercialized these
Things
And hackers
I enjoyed
I'm like
One of the only
Callers I think
Really enjoyed the movie
I'm not saying
I'm not a hacker
Myself but I do
Use the internet
And I found it
To be a movie
That was
It's just there
To be enjoyable
That's all
And inform people
That what
Not what's going on
But that there's
Something out there
It's a medium
To understand
That's all
Well I think
That's what the
People who made
The film
Would like to hear
Is that they
Found it enjoyable
Yeah I mean
I mean
The plot
And this lady
Calling in
And saying
Like you know
The chauvinistic
Views of man
It has nothing
To do with it
I mean
Just in everyday
Society
Just get off that
Tip
And like
Other things
Possibly like
I mean
The plot
Was okay
I mean
I don't like
How they're saying
How hackers
Break into things
And stuff like that
Because they don't
I mean
Some people do
But I mean
Like the guy said
The thing was
Curiosity
Is out there
That's what it's about
And that was
The basics of what
Hackers are about
The curiosity
And I don't know
If you agree
With that or not
Absolutely
That's really
You know
The common denominator
What kind of crowd
Did you see it with?
I saw
I don't
I was tired
I think everyone there
Was basically
Just dating
The whatever
No white attackers
In the audience
I doubt it
And did they seem
To like it?
No one really understood
The jokes in the movie
And some people
Just
There was like only
Ten people in the movie
Theater when I saw it
Actually
Ten people for a new film?
Yeah
It was in a village
And I didn't like
How they portrayed
New York City
How these kids
And they totally
Overdid that
Like kids in high school
And how they dress
And how they look
And how there's this club
For like cyberspace people
I didn't like that at all
I thought that was ridiculous
Because I don't see
Anything like that
In New York City
And I go to clubs
And I use
Fiber
He doesn't know
About the club
Oh
Wait it's elite
You're that elite
I never said I was elite
But is there a club like that?
Because I would like to go to it
Well we always go to clubs like that
But we don't let just anybody in
Yeah right over
No seriously
Is there a club like that?
Well we usually
Rollerblade over after the show
But
I mean it seemed like
It was like East Village thing
And I know there's like places
That like one time
Things
Where you have computer graphics
Special effects
Kind of thing
But not anything like that
That just seemed like
It was totally like a
Yeah it was fantasy
A lot of it was fantasy
Yeah
But the thing is
You know
The fantasy part
Was it at all believable?
Yeah it was believable
Uh huh
It was totally believable
I didn't like the villain in there
I think at the ending
How you guys asked
Some people
What they think about the ending
I think at the ending
He should have got away
He did get away in the original
In the original scene
Which they shot
And which was in the script
He did get away
I don't know why they changed it
Yeah it was stupid
The guy that comes on
With a plane
Come on
Yeah
Now what
You tell me
Does the secret service
Take the plane
All the way to where he was going
And then take him all the way back
Or do they turn the plane around midway
And take everybody back
So that they can arrest this guy
Why don't they just arrest him
When he gets on the plane
Not when he's up in the air
They had to make it dramatic
So you can laugh
It was supposed to make a joke
And why would he
I mean why would he have a computer
On a plane anyway
What was he doing
Like checking his bank account
Or something
Well he's obsessed
He's obsessed
Yeah
That was kind of funny
I didn't like the fact
He was rolling around
On a skateboarder
They make these hackers
Seem like they're overgrown kids
Uh huh
And all they do is
They use a computer
To like
The pill
You know
Just to go destroy things
Like kids
You know how kids do things
Like they
They just do things out of spite
And that's what they made it seem like
He was an overgrown kid
Driving around on a skateboard
And he was just going around
Breaking things
And stealing money
From people on his computer
And I thought that was ridiculous
Okay
Well listen
Thanks very much for the input
Alright bye
Take care
A lot of strong feelings out there
I think
Yeah
And I see the points
In all of them I think
Good evening
You're on
Oh yes hello
Go ahead
Hey
How you doing
This is Micah
Micah how are you
Alright
I got a question for you guys
As far as
When you said that
You guys had consulted
For the movie
And I was wondering about
That part where
What's his name
The King of Nine X
Whatever his name was
When he was in jail
That's Phantom Freak
Phantom Freak
Right
When he was in jail
And he had that one phone call
That he could make
And so they let him over
To the phone
And you know
He goes over there
And the guy
You know
I guess he
I can't remember
If the cop dialed
The number in for him
Or not
Yeah he did
But then he
He locked the phone up
And he was able
To just
You know
Use the
Use the flash hook
To dial wherever
He wanted to go
Right
And I was wondering
If you guys
Had anything to do with that
If you like
If they suggested
They put that in there
Or something like that
I mean I was thinking
Perhaps you fiber
With your
In jail experience
If that ever
If you ever had the
Chance to do that
Did you ever do that
To a fine in prison
No I didn't have to
I mean when I was
When I was in jail
You could just make
It was a normal pay phone
You could just make
A call on it
Well you could only call
Designated numbers though
Oh
No I'm not talking
About in prison
I'm talking about in jail
Like where he was
In jail
There were normal pay phones
And they were
Obviously they were
Collect call only phones
They didn't have
Coin slots on them
But at least
There were 9x phones
Now why didn't he
Just call the number
To start with
Why did he have to
Flash it
What was the logic
Behind that
He went to the opera
Yeah he flashed
The switch hook
Ten times
To get the operator
Right okay
But why
Now the guy
In the prison
Or jail
Was connecting him
To something
I don't know
They never resolved that
I guess every movie
Is going to have
Its little parts
That you know
What really annoyed me
Was when they
Did the red box thing
They used touch tones
Yeah they had to
Change the tones
They didn't use
Real red box tones
I'm wondering if
9x pressured them
Not to use
Real red box tones
I think you know
If you
Well if you listen to
Red box tones
I mean
To someone who
Doesn't know what
They are
They're not going
To be very impressive
Well they will
Recognize the sounds
Because everyone's
Heard them
Right but on a
Movie screen
I mean what do you
Think sounds better
The monotone red box
Or
But does it really
Matter you know
I mean they hear
Little beeps and
Okay they're not
Impressed and
Unimpressed
Nothing lost
Well Raphael
Actually did want to
Use the real tones
And he said that
The legal people
At MGM made them
Take it out
Oh is that what
Happened
I figured it was
Something like that
Yeah
That's too bad
But at least
At least the film
Gives you everything
You need to know
To use a red box
And they show you
How simple it is
Just hold the tape
Recorder up to the phone
Drop a recorder in
Record the sound
Of those beeps
And then play it
That's how it works
That's how easy it is
That's why Bernie S
Is in prison for six months
With no bail
Because of stupid
Technology like that
Just one other thing
I wish that
I guess I wish
The movie was more
If it showed more
What hackers did
On a day to day basis
I like how they went out
And just explained
The whole red box thing
I wish they did the same thing
For like
Oh I don't know
Trashing for credit card numbers
Or if they did the same thing
For how people will hand hack
To get long distance access codes
You know back when they were
Just six digits
Or you know maybe if
You know for those companies
That still do have
Access codes that are
Just six digits
I wish they did more
Of that type of thing
You know but
I mean that might go
More into the
Yeah I agree
I think they should have
Gotten into more
Of the actual technical
Hacking things
So I think there's still
A lot of room in there
I think now if they
Like after these movies
Get made I think
You know down the line
Hopefully someone will do one
That you know just gets
In a little bit more
I don't know
I guess you could say
Cerebral or something
You know not
Not as flashy
But you know more
On the technical side
Uh huh
And uh
How would you have
Changed the ending
Uh
And you don't have to
Change the ending by the way
Some people might like
The ending
Oh the ending
Pretty much sucked
But I mean you guys
Had told me
Every time you saw it
I mean how many times
You guys see it
Five or six million times
And hearing how
The ending sucked
And all that
But um
I think
I don't know
I would have liked to see
The guy either get away
Or I don't know
Have him killed
Or something like that
That would be something
I'm sure Fisher Stevens
Would appreciate that
But um
Yeah I mean
Since the way the movie
Was going
I don't know how I
How it could have been
Changed you know
Very much to make it
A spectacular ending
I mean because it was
You know
I thought the main characters
Were pretty boring
You know
I thought the
The supporting ones
The supporting characters
Were you know
A lot better
Gave more to the movie
But of course
You know
I mean
They were just getting
Beat all around
Putting to jail
You know
Doing all this
Right
You know
As far as like
The main characters
It wasn't
You know
I don't see what
You could have done
That made it
Just like boom
You know
This great ending
At the end
So
Alright well listen
Thanks for the input
Okay
Talk to you guys later
Take care
We're just about
Out of time here
So I want to thank
Everyone who called in
And we have
About two minutes left
So if anyone
Still wants to call in
And pledge
Please do
212-279-3400
We've made it
To 3205
I want to thank
Everyone who
Pledged
For making this
Successful
And again
212-279-3400
Is our number
If you want to
Take advantage of anything
That we might have
Left over
Stay tuned
On WBAI
New York
We'll be on again
Next week
At 10 o'clock
And
And the week after that
Starting our new
Time Tuesday nights
At 8
We were going to
Update the Bernie S
Situation
And well here's the update
Basically Bernie S
Had to plead guilty
Because
Pleading
Innocent
And facing trial
By jury
Just seemed
Too risky
And I understand
Perfectly why
He had to do that
The advantage is
That he may be out
As early as tomorrow
Tomorrow is when
He is sentenced
And the disadvantage
Is of course
That this law
Still remains in effect
Unchallenged
And hopefully
We can challenge that
Over the next few months
Stay tuned to
Off the hook
Over the weeks
Ahead
We'll update you
As to how that goes
And now let's
Let's leave
With the song
That I think
Is becoming a tradition
As far as
Radio marathons
And things like that
Tells you how
Radio is operated
In most places
But not here
We'll see you again
Next week
Again thanks
Everybody who
Called in
Take care
This is
Off the hook
Good night
I watch children
In the shine
In the light
And I dialed
Doing anything
My radio advised
With every one
Of those late night
Stations playing songs
Bringing tears to my eyes
I was seriously
Thinking about
Hiding a receiver
When the switch broke
Cause it's old
They're saying things
That I can hardly believe
They really think
We're getting out of control
Radio is the sound salvation
Radio is cleaning up the nation
They say you better listen
To the vice of reason
But they don't give you any choice
Cause they think that it's treason
So you had better do
As you were told
You better listen to the radio
I want to fight the hand
That feeds me
I want to fight that hand
So badly
I want to make them wish
They'd never see me
Some of my friends
Sit around every evening
And they worry about
The times ahead
But everybody else
Is overwhelmed
By indifference
And the promise
Of an early death
You either shut up
Or get cut out
They don't want to hear about
It's only inches
On the real to real
And the radio
Is in the hands
Of such a lot of fools
Trying to anesthetize
The way that you can feel
Radio is the sound salvation
Radio is cleaning up the nation
They say you better listen
To do the vice
To do the vice
Of reason
That they don't give you any choice
Cause they think that it's Jesus
So you had better do
As you were told
You better listen to the radio
What if I'm ready to know
I will ask you better
What if I'm ready to know
Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh
Oh-oh-oh-oh
Oh-oh-oh-oh
Oh, oh, oh, oh
Hey, you, you, I've got something to tell you. I think you should listen. Come closer.