and don't forget housing notebook is coming up at 10 o'clock or nine o'clock nine o'clock
right after me and uh this is emmanuel goldstein the program is off the hook
and it's eight o'clock which means it's time for off the hook
coming
the telephone keeps ringing so i really got lost
i cut myself while shaving now i can't make a pop
i couldn't get much worse but if i could they would
but the best is best and worst
i hope that fun is good
so
Thank you.
Thank you.
I don't know exactly where we're going to wind up going, but it's going to be someplace no one's ever gone before.

NYNEX employees dancing the jig with children.
Um, there were like three computers set up in the back showing some basic ISDN and they had a feed from Buffalo that didn't seem to work all the time where they tried to show how they can stream video.
Uh-huh.
Um, what was really amazing was that, uh, it became like an entire, entire kid show for the whole afternoon.
And when I started speaking to individuals from NYNEX who were wearing these cute NYNEX turtlenecks, asking them questions about ISDN, I ended up answering more questions for the quote-unquote civilians.
You were answering questions for NYNEX?
Yes.
Okay.
Well, that's good.
Uh, did you help them out?
Well, I was able to help them out and in the, at the same time I started speaking to the marketing people who were stressing out because NYNEX didn't, uh, bring enough brochures or any brochures about ISDN.
So you have no, no brochures to, uh.
Right.
So they were just winging it.
Uh-huh.
So as I was talking, they were saying, oh yeah, by the way, do you, you realize that in a month's time when the Congress gets its act together, um, NYNEX will be merging, uh, with Bell Atlantic and the working title right now is Atlantic NYNEX.
Atlantic NYNEX.
Atlantic NYNEX, huh?
Uh.
What do you think of that one, Fyber?
Uh, that, that's, uh, that's a doozy.
Yeah.
How would you shorten that?
Um.
At Nine?
I don't know.
At Nex, I guess.
Yes.
Yeah, weird.
Okay, Atlantic NYNEX.
All right.
Doesn't seem fair, though, because New York is in there.
New York's the only state that's in the, the Nye part.
Well, New England.
New England is, New England.
New England is, it's five states.
Yeah.
Right?
So, uh, actually it's six states.
So, I don't know, New York always gets an unfair advantage, but that's okay.
NYNEX.
Where, where's NYNEX going?
And, and there's, there's rumors of other mergers too, right?
Well, once I get this one done, uh, the next plan is Pac-Bell, and. . .
What do you mean the next plan is Pac-Bell?
What, are they going to require Pac-Bell?
Well, the next merge.
With who?
With, uh, Atlantic NYNEX.
So, it's going to be Atlantic Pacific NYNEX.
Sort of like A&P NYNEX, yeah.
One-stop shopping for all your telephone needs.
But, what's really interesting, though, is the fact that for ISDN, I asked them, because
I said, what's going to happen?
Am I going to start paying Bell Atlantic rates, or NYNEX rates, or Pac-Bell rates from
ISDN?
And they said, well, in the beginning, what we'll have to do is keep everything sort of
as separate subsidiaries.
Mm-hmm.
And, which struck me as a bit odd, but they said that they would be able to manage that
all separately, and that maybe it's done. . .
Kind of like New York Telephone and, uh, New England Telephone before they became NYNEX.
I'm still at a loss, in fact.
I thought the whole thing with the breakup was to, like, break them up.
Yeah, well. . .
And now they're . . .
And they said this is all because . . . they're doing this all because of increased competition.
So, increased competition, which, you know, broke up the Baby Bell, one big Bell into
Baby Bells, is bringing them back as one big one, so I don't know.
Well, they broke them up so that they would have increased competition.
Now, I guess what they're saying is we've succeeded in getting increased competition,
so we're going to merge them back together again.
But, you know, I don't see all the increased competition all that much.
I mean, nobody's coming to me saying, hey, you know, we can do a better job than NYNEX.
I don't think there's any choice out there for a lot of us.
And the one amazing thing was, as they were talking about the cost of ISDN, the one thing
they kept glossing over was the fact that you had to pay a monthly fee to an Internet
provider to go on the Internet with ISDN.
And so they're telling everybody, oh, it's like $30, $35 a month, and they neglect that
there's this extra cost.
Unreal.
Well, it's been a fun day for some of us with ISDN, hasn't it, Fiber?
For one and all.
You should know that you're back up.
Yes, I found that out.
When in doubt, reboot, I guess is the phrase.
Well, when in doubt and you run Linux, reboot the machine.
Well, you've got to have some digs about Linux or Linux or whatever you call it, that's your
suicide there.
Because there's a lot of Linux people out there that listen to the show, and I'm sure they
have some comments about that.
Well, then we should certainly caution them not to do anything stressful with the machine
lest we upset it.
Well, the machine certainly was upset today, but it's happy now.
But our telephone line still isn't happy.
We still are having trouble connecting at 56.
Yeah.
We have to go through at 64.
But that's a whole other kettle of fish.
Yeah.
So did you hear about the new custom calling features?
No, new custom calling features.
Tell me.
Yeah.
This is for normal people, not for ISDN people.
Normal people.
Normal people, yeah.
New features will be becoming available at the beginning of this year.
The first one being Caller ID Deluxe, which is already being tested in upstate.
Now, that's Caller ID with name.
While you're speaking, I'm going to be getting Bernie S. in the phone.
Okay.
That'll actually, like you said, it'll deliver the name to someone who,
decides that they want to pay an extra dollar on top of the charge for Caller ID,
which I think is about $6.50 a month.
If you pay $7.50 a month, and you have a Caller ID box that can deliver the name,
which you can get from the Wiz, then you'll get the name.
A couple other features.
There's a call management feature that's coming out,
which will actually allow you to conference someone in who's on your call waiting,
which has never been available and everybody always wanted to be.
No, wait.
We hear Bernie S. now ringing, so I just want to get him on the line.
Okay.
And I want to repeat what you just said.
Okay.
Bernie S. running to the phone now somewhere in Philadelphia.
Hello.
He's made it.
Hi, Bernie S.
Hello.
How are you doing?
You're on the radio right now.
I am.
Fiber Optic has just announced some new services that are available on 9X,
soon to be 9X Atlantic.
We're going to be one.
How does that feel?
9X Atlantic, they're calling it.
They're going to call it 9X Atlantic from what we hear.
What are these dubious new services?
Well, now, one of them is Caller ID Deluxe, which allows you to see the name.
We have that here in Pennsylvania now.
You do have that?
Yeah.
It's an additional dollar a month.
Now, that's what I don't understand.
They charge an additional dollar a month for you to get the name in the data stream.
Right.
Now, don't they send it anyway?
No.
No, they don't.
So they send two data streams?
No, it's just an extra few bits they tag in there.
It's a different type of message altogether.
So they send two different data streams depending on which one you subscribe to.
Why don't they just send it all at once?
Because then they couldn't charge you that extra bit.
Ah.
Silly me.
Exactly.
It's almost all these custom calling services that they have, I mean, they're all of dubious
cost to them.
I mean, it's all done in software, so.
But besides that, though, most importantly, the two different messages are different.
If you have a Caller ID box that can't receive the messages with the names in it, then
you won't get anything.
Right.
Is it actually a different, it's a completely different string fiber, or is it an additional
field in the...
No, the format of the message is different.
In fact, the Caller ID box will know what sort of message it is just by some bits at the
very beginning.
So if you have a standard Caller ID, and then you get Enhanced Caller ID, your old box won't
work anymore if it would just receive the numeric information?
That's an interesting point.
Well...
Yeah, well, the question would arise, do they send both?
Yeah, that is a good question.
I don't know.
I don't have the Enhanced.
I just have the standard here.
Because I've read the Belcorp technical specification for Caller ID delivery, and the two formats
are different.
Why do you sound like you're coming through a tin can?
Why do I sound like I'm coming through a tin can?
Yeah, I don't know.
Did you, like, change something?
No, I didn't.
I didn't change anything.
It did this on its own.
Hello?
Yeah, we're getting this reverb thing.
Okay, well, never mind.
We're just going to have to deal with that.
All right.
So, yes.
You can barely hear you guys.
You can barely hear us.
Oh, now you just jumped back.
I don't know what's going on.
There you go.
Must be the weather to quote a 9-inch person.
Yeah.
So, anyway, now there's this other feature, though, which is something that I've long been
complaining about.
In fact, in the new issue of 2600, which just went to press, we told somebody that we think
it's a pretty stupid thing that they don't offer this service, and apparently they heard
us before we even said it.
Caller, um...
Or they were tapping your phone, one or the other.
Yeah.
Three-way calling through call waiting.
Is that...
No, you don't need three-way calling.
You don't need three-way calling.
Yeah, the whole idea is they're coming out with something called call management.
What call management will let you do is, if you're currently talking to someone, and
another call comes in, and you have call waiting, which I assume would be part of call
management, a call comes in, and you'll be able to add that person in with the other
person.
So, it's almost like three-way, only you're able to take a call waiting and conference
it in, and you don't need to have three-way to do that.
Like being able to receive in a three-way call.
Right.
Okay.
That's something I've always wanted to be able to do, but what I don't understand is what
happens if you have three-way?
How do you tell it?
They don't mention that.
But what I think is that, because there's other features associated with this call management,
I think it would probably have to work on a flash the switch hook and get the master
dial tone and enter star codes kind of thing, because there's too many different features.
Besides this one, there's also the ability to send the person who's coming in on your
call waiting to voicemail, which is something I can do right now on ISDN, but you'll be able
to do that.
There's a protocol that they're trying to establish that allows, I don't know how this
would work from a hardware standpoint with your caller ID decoder, but they're working
on a caller ID over call waiting.
Right.
I was going to mention that, too.
The INX is going to be offering that as well.
I don't know how that could work with an existing caller ID box, because an existing caller ID
box looks for the ring voltage and detects that.
So you might have to get a hold of it.
People may have to be constantly upgrading their caller ID boxes.
Sounds like a real annoyance.
A few years ago, when we found some sort of a memo floating around about this, they said
that there was going to be a very lengthy tone that would be sent across.
I don't know how people can tolerate a tone of a couple of seconds while they're talking
on the phone.
Yeah, I read the specification from Bellcore, and it's going to work using a sequence of
ABC and D tones for handshaking.
Oh, wonderful.
And it'll actually mute out your conversation momentarily and send the burst of data through.
But it's going to mute it out longer than a regular call waiting tone, right?
Yeah, it'll be that plus a few seconds.
So I guess a new caller ID decoder would have to be used to decode this.
Yeah, otherwise I don't know how it would know to actually listen.
Right.
Because now it detects all the current ones on the market detect the ring voltage and
then switch on.
So these new ones will have to detect both that and the fourth column of the touch tones.
Uh-huh.
We're having definite problems here with the telephone.
I don't know what...
We're getting up with, like, the Betamax versus DHS thing with the caller ID boxes.
Like, everybody's going to have to discard their old caller ID boxes if they want to get
the new caller ID services.
Uh-huh.
It may be possible.
Okay.
Well, that's interesting as far as that goes.
Bernie, update us on the status of your case.
Audio has dropped down to nearly...
Yeah, I'm aware of the problem here.
I don't know what's causing this.
You know, I'm going to try that.
I'm going to actually take this phone and try to work with the connections.
I really can't hear you.
Okay.
I heard you say okay, but it's very different noise.
I think there's a loose connection somewhere around here.
Okay, well, try it.
Can you hear me now?
I'm a little bit louder.
Okay.
This is the way it is with all of our calls.
It's going to be very difficult.
Hmm.
Can you hear me now?
Well, it's barely perceptible, but I can hear you say...
I can basically hear you.
Okay.
If we can try calling you again, that might clear up the problem.
Good enough.
All right, let's try that.
We'll just...
Because when in doubt, you should reboot something, and I think that's...
All right, I'll wait for you to call back.
Okay, let's try that.
And while he's...
Okay, he's gone.
While he's gone, let's see if we can get a loud dial tone here.
Okay.
There's nothing wrong with that dial tone, right?
Nope.
Okay, I think this is a phone line problem.
Yeah.
Because it seemed to happen while he was talking to us.
Okay, that's a nice, solid tone there.
So I don't think there's going to be any problem.
Now let's, uh, dial his number.
And hopefully this won't happen again.
Wait for our special access code thing there.
Have to look up the code.
Ah, yes, there it is.
That sounds really nice and healthy there.
Hello.
Ah, much better.
You sound very good.
Well, I don't...
I can't explain it.
It's just that it started working again.
Oh, when all else fails, blame 9X.
It is snowing out.
Yeah, the snow is coming down, so who knows.
Okay, so update us as to the status of your case.
Well, not a lot has changed since a couple weeks ago when I was on your program.
But, uh, I am awaiting a new, uh, re-sentencing hearing for, uh, what comes down to a probation violation.
Um, for those who aren't familiar with my, my legal troubles, uh, I spent most of 1995 in prison for a new federal statute, uh, for basically possessing hardware or software, uh, for the modification of telecommunication.
Uh, for the unauthorized use or access to telecommunication services.
Now, the things I possess are readily available at any Radio Shack store.
And I was also charged with possessing a computer software, which could reprogram, uh, a cellular phone so you could have two or more phones on the same number.
Now, it's...
The government was claiming that this could be used for fraud, but, uh, they conveniently, uh, sidestepped the fact that the software did not enable anyone to obtain other people's cellular, uh, electronic serial numbers.
It just, it didn't have that capability that only allowed you, if you already had a serial number, to program that into the phone and so forth.
But, uh, as, uh, Fiverr can relate, uh, they have ways of getting you over a barrel that, um, you basically have to, uh, plead guilty to avoid having to spend a lengthy period of time in jail.
And after seven months, I would have said that I shot Abraham Lincoln if I, if that, I thought that would get me out.
You shot Abraham Lincoln?
I would have said anything.
Almost.
I was sick of it.
I, I...
I was so emotionally exhausted by, uh, after having been locked up for seven months that, uh, you know, I basically said, yes, do your, do what you want and just let me out.
Tell us, tell us some more about what's coming up, though.
What's coming up, uh, as a result of, uh, this federal, uh, I guess I should backtrack a bit.
Back in 1993, I was charged with a state misdemeanor in Pennsylvania, uh, for a tampering with evidence charge, which consisted of, uh, uh, being charged with removing batteries from a touch-tone dialer that was, uh, in my possession.
The, uh, the argument being that the, uh, police thought that, uh, any numbers that were stored in this touch-tone dialer would have been erased by the removal of these batteries and, therefore, taking the batteries out of it, um, removed any numbers that they had hoped to get from it.
They were, uh, they thought that there were numbers in this touch-tone, uh, dialer that, uh, would have been of interest to them.
And since they never found out what they were, they, it was a sour grapes thing.
They charged me with tampering with evidence of removing the batteries.
And there's some doubt, too, that it was even you that removed the batteries.
There is. I was not observed removing the batteries.
There were two other people that had access to them at the same time.
I was there.
I was unwilling to implicate anybody else who may have been, uh, the party who removed the batteries.
And I pled no contest.
I refused to say that I actually did it because I didn't, frankly.
Um, I pled no contest and was given, uh, two years probation and a, and a $2,000 fine for this heinous act of removing batteries from a touch-tone dialer.
And, uh, unfortunately, uh, the following year, this, uh, federal indictment was handed down for the possession of these, uh, commonly available parts and software.
And, uh, the resulting conviction from that constituted a violation of my probation agreement, um, that I'd made in 1993 for the, uh, or actually in 1994 for the, uh, for the, uh, tampering with evidence charge.
So it's a catch-22 situation.
I, uh, I served all my federal time for this, uh, possession of the hardware and software, uh, charge, which, uh, I should also mention,
and I have the dubious distinction of being the first person in the country charged with this new, new, uh, part of, uh, the statute.
Actually, it's, uh, uh, U.S. Uh, U.S. Code, uh, Title 18, Section 1029.
And I think Fiber has some, uh, unfortunate familiarity with that same section of federal law,
but they added some new amendments late last year, um, which I was charged with, uh, only a few weeks later.
Another interesting thing to note is that, uh, they charged me possessing things that, uh, I purchased before the law was put into effect,
but that didn't seem to matter to them.
So, anyway, uh, what's coming up on the 12th is I'm going to be resentenced by, uh, a county judge in Northampton County of Pennsylvania
for my violating my, uh, county probation for this misdemeanor of tampering with evidence.
And this is, what, about the fourth time they've rescheduled it?
Actually, it's about the, uh, sixth time.
And, uh, I feel like I'm on a real emotional rollercoaster.
It was supposed to happen a week after I was released from federal prison on, uh, October 13th, which is Friday the 13th.
And, uh, every few weeks, uh, it's supposed to happen again, and they keep changing it.
The last time it was supposed to be, uh, I guess, uh, a couple weeks ago, and there was a big snowstorm, so they canceled it again.
The time before that, when it was canceled, or not canceled, it rescheduled, uh, I, uh, went all the way up to this county,
which is two hours from Philadelphia, and my attorney drove up separately.
And, uh, we got there only to find out that it had been rescheduled, and they didn't bother to notify me, um, by telephone, or my attorney by telephone.
They did send me a certified letter.
Which you passed on the way up there.
Which, uh, yeah, they mailed me, they were thoughtful enough to mail me a certified letter indicating that, uh, this hearing had been rescheduled.
Um, they mailed it the day before the hearing was supposed to take place.
And, uh, they didn't bother to send it overnight.
They just sent it regular certified mail.
And, uh, it arrived at the post, at my post office after the hearing was supposed to take place.
But, uh, you know, it's not their lawyer.
They have to, uh, they don't have to worry about my legal fees of $250 an hour.
It's, uh, you know, they don't care about that sort of thing.
So.
Unbelievable.
Well, it's just, uh, week after week we keep hearing this as far as, uh, as the tribulations you're going through there.
So the next tentative date is the 12th of January.
So that'll be a week from Friday coming up.
If it's, uh, if I am sentenced to, uh, to time, I could get anywhere between, uh, three months to two years in a county jail in Pennsylvania.
And, uh, I would not be looking forward to that.
I'd really hope to have some closure to this whole ordeal in 1995, but it's dragging on.
If they're going to give me a prison sentence, I'd rather start it now than just drag it out and wait until.
We should point out, though, that even though this is, uh, now reduced to the local level, uh, there is still very much national, uh, influence going on because of the Secret Service actually, uh, calling the local people and saying what a threat to society you are and you should be in prison for as long as possible.
Yeah, the Secret Service called this, uh, county probation officer up in Northampton County and, uh, tried to explain to him how, uh, how much a menace I was to society.
And, uh, uh, went on to expand on how dangerous I was because I had to, amongst the, you know, hundreds of books I had in my library, I had, I had some books, um, that's a small number, probably four or five books that described how, uh, how explosives are manufactured.
I've never manufactured explosives, but I have a diverse taste in, uh, in reading.
And, um, when those books were found, uh, I found out from, uh, my former roommate when, uh, when the Secret Service was searching my home, that as soon as they found those books, they, uh, uh, called the bomb squad in Philadelphia and tried to reach bomb squads in, uh, in surrounding counties.
And, and, uh, there were no dogs available.
They couldn't find a bomb dog to sniff my house.
So, so, um, my roommate at the time offered to, to, uh, no, search through stuff for them to, uh, show them that there was nothing dangerous there.
But they were very paranoid about the whole thing because they found books on topics that they, um, were afraid of, I guess.
And later when I was arraigned before a federal judge, he, uh, uh, lambasted me for, uh, for the books that were in my possession.
And I was just kind of felt pretty beaten at that point.
Otherwise, I, I might have said, uh, well, if you don't like my taste in reading, then why don't you just burn all my books?
But, uh, he probably wouldn't have appreciated that comment.
No, probably would have, uh, fallen on deaf ears there.
Well, Bernie, uh, you know, again, we, we wish you the best of luck as far as, uh, as all this goes.
We still have another week, so we'll probably talk to you again next week as well.
Yeah, that might, might, might be my last opportunity, but, uh, I'll be available.
You're welcome to stick around and, uh, take some phone calls with us if you want.
Sure, I'll, I'll hang on the line.
Okay, great.
Um, I've got a copy of something that I think is, uh, is, it's kind of interesting.
Uh, it's, it's, it hasn't come out yet, but it's about to.
And, uh, it took us quite a while to get this.
So, um, it's, it's sort of reviewed in the next 2600, but not as much as it would have been had they gotten to it, to us on time.
Uh, it's the, um, it's the book, the book about Kevin Mitnick.
Well, it's one of four books about Kevin Mitnick that's coming out.
Uh, but this is the one that, uh, John Morkoff, uh, put together with Shitomo Shimomura.
The one that we sort of knew was going to happen as soon as we read the newspaper reports, uh, right here on this radio program almost a year ago.
So, it's called Takedown.
Look at, look at all these words in the front, uh, front page here, uh, the, the cover page.
Takedown, the pursuit and capture of Kevin Mitnick, America's most wanted computer outlawed by the man who did it.
Uh, Sutomo Shimomura with John Markoff.
They make him sound like Wyatt Earp.
Listen, listen to this, uh, they, they rename all of us, too.
I'm now known as Emuel Goldstein.
They, they don't even bother to check facts and spelling and things like that, you know.
And, and, and they say that, um, that Mitnick had, uh, had gone through a number of mailboxes on the well, uh, including John Markoff and, uh, John Littman, who has also written a book on this.
In fact, uh, we'll be speaking with John Littman in the weeks ahead.
He's, uh, written a book called The Fugitive Game.
And, you know, that book is not only about Mitnick, but it's about Markoff tracking Mitnick.
And it raises some very interesting questions there.
Uh, but anyway, uh, they, they go on to say, uh, Mitnick had gone through the mailboxes of Emuel Goldstein.
Uh, the editor of the Phone Freak magazine, 2600.
Ron Austin, a South California, uh, Southern California programmer who had been in trouble for a number of computer crimes.
And Chris Goggins, a reformed member of the Computer Underground who published an online Computer Underground magazine called Frack.
You know how many times they say Computer Underground in that sentence?
It's unbelievable.
Um, according to the well people, though, uh, Mitnick did not go through my mail.
He grept, uh, for a certain word.
And I think that word was Markoff.
But I'm not, I'm not sure about that.
But I just know it wasn't a question of someone going through the, um, going through the books all the time.
Going through the, uh, the mailboxes, right?
Um, and then we have, um, a mention of, um, of Internet providers in New York.
Listen to this.
As, um, as, uh, Mark Seiden, who was tracking, um, Kevin Mitnick,
as he observed the intruder's comings and goings over the following days,
he would see that, although in some cases the intruder would connect to Internets from the well,
he would most frequently enter via escape.com,
which he learned was a New York City Internet service provider run by an enterprising high school kid.
The listings of current users that came back frequently included names of people
who are currently connected to the system, including fiber optic and a manual Goldstein.
I wouldn't call it a slum, but it was probably one of the Internet's more seedy neighborhoods.
What do you think of that?
Uh, that's, that's pretty interesting.
More seedy, seedy neighborhood there.
Well, I don't have an account on escape, and I never have.
Well, let me, let me point out, fiber, and it's not you fiber optic,
because it's fiber optic with a C.
With a C, oh.
Obviously, he's referring to somebody else, uh, you know, known as fiber optic here.
But, uh, yeah, he refers to me as Emmanuel Goldstein this time,
and I do have an account over there, although I, I, I wasn't spending much time there
plotting with, uh, with the likes of whatever the other fiber optic is,
and, and Kevin Mitnick and various other people.
Now, we happen to have an employee of, uh, of escape.com right here in the studio with us.
Uh, um, what do you think of the free publicity there that escape.com is getting from this book?
Oh, boy.
Um, I wouldn't call it publicity.
Well, I guess it is bad or good.
But, um, and having known that enterprising high school student,
I wonder what the slander implications of that, that are right there.
I, I'd be really curious.
I'm going to ask about it, because that's, that's just a direct, I mean, what, a seedy neighborhood.
Oh, he wouldn't call it a slum.
Not a slum, but a seedy neighborhood.
I don't know what an internet slum is defined as, but, uh, he doesn't, he doesn't want to stoop to that level,
but he doesn't want to refer to it as seedy.
I mean, what's your opinion, I mean, that's, that's, to me, that seems like all that slander.
You guys provide internet access.
I mean, we provide internet access to, you know, well over 2,000 users throughout, you know,
New York and 718 and 212 and all sorts of people on the system.
I mean, I, I'm really curious to know, I'm, I mean, it's not my, I work there, but, I mean, I don't own it.
I'm not really as fired up as I think the owner would be once he hears that.
Is it, is it seedy on the inside?
No, no.
Is that the building there?
No, not at all.
Not seedy at all?
No, not seedy.
No seedyness going on anywhere?
No seedyness whatsoever.
Interesting.
Okay, maybe a little seedyness, but I think, no more than any other place on the internet.
Right, right.
But, I mean, that, that statement is, I think, blatantly slanderous.
And I think he should, first of all, I mean, check facts before anything.
I mean, Chris Goggins.
Oh, check spelling first, then check facts.
Yeah, check spelling, I mean, calling Chris Goggins a reform member of a hack group who used to put out a magazine,
he still puts out the magazine.
I mean, you know.
Yeah, it just doesn't come out.
Yeah, but he puts it out.
And the phone freak magazine, I think that's funny, considering it's 2600, the hacker quarterly.
Yeah, well, he's, you know, very much adverse to using the word hacker, unless it refers to someone good like him.
Right.
Just so it's not taken the wrong way, I think he refers to escape being seedy by association by those people who regularly use the system and not escape in and of itself.
So you may want to take that as a backhand compliment.
Yeah, but escape in and of itself is the people that use it.
Either way, if it turns away users, if it turns away potential users, it's a defaming statement.
So I think there could be legal implications.
I mean, you know, Netcom has lots of people on it, and we can't define it as, you know, as a place based on the people that use it.
I mean, it's open.
However, AOL has a lot of users, and we can say that that is complete crap.
Well, it's because of software interfaces.
It's because of what it allows its users to do.
There was a big scare in AOL over the last week.
Somebody sent a letter requesting people to mail him passwords.
Right, AOL.
It happens periodically.
Yeah, and the president of AOL actually had to send mail to people.
At least we assume that it was a real letter.
It could be something else.
It's funny because he quoted the letter, you know, saying that people should send their passwords to a certain account,
but he never quoted the part that said to send the password, so the whole thing didn't seem to make any sense.
Check out the new issue of, I believe, NetGuide magazine.
They have a blurb on it.
And they actually quote something about using the program AOL, which is the password cracker program for AOL.
That certainly is something, though.
But, you know, I mean, with that logic, you can have some really nasty people just go and sign on to a system,
and right away that makes the system into an evil place because you provide service to people who are evil.
And not to say that anybody on Escape was evil or that these people they're talking about is evil because I'm one of them.
But, you know, I think it's a very closed and simple way of looking at things.
Right.
All right.
And then there's one other section here, which is kind of interesting.
It involves the Mossad.
You know, they had to work their way into this somehow.
Okay, this is written from the viewpoint or from the words of Tsutomu Shimomura.
I was still drying my hair when Markov arrived.
He looked at me straight across the room, and right away I was just taken away with that.
While I was getting my things together, I described what had happened on Thursday and Friday.
We talked about the Israeli connection with the student JSZ.
I think the Israeli connection is significant, he said.
Not JSZ, Markov.
I assume he means that.
If I were a foreign intelligence agency or anyone for that matter who wanted to steal technology from the United States companies,
what better cover than to have a fugitive computer felon as a cutout?
Markov was sitting on my bed, fiddling with the radio mail terminal.
Okay, a single light was on in the tiny convenience kitchen, but the room was still quite dark.
Although it was gray outside, I hadn't bothered to open the curtains.
Why is this necessary for us to know this?
The tension is mounting.
It certainly is.
Maybe this is actually a Mossad operation, he continued.
Say this guy befriended Kevin on internet relay chat or through Haktik in the Netherlands.
Now he's goading him into attacking various American computers.
Afterwards, they share the spoils.
I didn't particularly see it.
It would be easy for JSZ to disguise his identity in the internet,
and he would easily be connecting to the school's computers from anywhere in the world.
And in any case, why would an Israeli intelligence agency have such a great interest in cellular telephone software and development tools?
It seemed more plausible to me that Mitnick believed that by hacking the cellular telephone code,
he could, in effect, make himself invisible, for he had a huge stake in not being captured.
Another possibility may have been that he was involved in industrial espionage in some way.
Perhaps he was stealing the software for someone who had a real use for it.
And then it goes on into the adventure.
It was 1 p.m. by the time we left the hotel.
Robert wasn't due back at NETCOM until later in the day.
We'd arranged to meet Mark Seiden for lunch.
Which, somewhere between his San Mateo home and San Jose,
then they go into where they went and what they had and what the check was,
who was bickering and the tip and all that kind of thing.
And by the end of the book, I guess they get into the part about actually tracking down Mitnick.
So it's quite an entertaining read there, I guess.
How much of this book could have been totally removed and still get the point across?
I mean, you've read the book.
How many pages do you think could have been cut out of this thing to make it an effective and quick read?
I don't know, because...
I mean, that whole thing that you just read seemed absolutely pointless,
except to, you know, stroke Shimomura's ego.
It's amazing, because they have a picture of the John Markoff front-page article of the New York Times
on the back of the book.
And, of course, they have the picture of Kevin as he was years ago,
looking nothing like he does now.
But they kind of present that picture there to make him look as unflattering as possible, I guess.
It's really pretty silly, the whole thing.
I don't know. I don't know how it's going to do.
We'll have reviews of other books, though.
As they come out, because there's at least three other books coming out.
Who are the other authors?
Well, one author is the guy who did the Rolling Stone piece.
I don't have his name handy.
Charles Platt, who wrote for Wired, is doing a piece, is doing a book.
And also John Littman, who has written for Playboy and various other things.
And, you know, John Littman is, I think, the only one of the four who has actually talked to Kevin Mitnick.
So that's the book you want to kind of look at.
So we'll have more on that in weeks ahead.
The other author is James or David Goodwell, who's coming out.
Goodall.
Goodall.
Goodall, that's the name, yes.
Isn't it Jeff Goodall?
Jeff Goodall.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah, that's the guy.
So I don't know how that book is going to be.
I don't even know what it's going to be called.
So we'll have to wait and see when it comes out.
Okay, Bernie, you're still there.
I am.
What do you think of all these books?
Do you think they're going to write a book about you?
Well, I hope not.
It seems to be a big cottage industry in this now, though.
But, I mean, I think your story is the most interesting of all because of the things you've been through.
And just the way that they treat you.
And if no one approaches you about writing a book, I think you should write a book yourself.
Well, I took quite a few notes while I was incarcerated.
And one of these days I may publish it, but I wouldn't be interested in selling it.
I just would want to make it freely available because, I don't know, I don't care in profiteering from this whole thing.
Well, I mean, you need to make back the money that you've been robbed of so far.
My legal fees are going to be in excess of $30,000, not to mention most of the year of my life being trashed and the lost income thereof
and having to live, at least for the time being, with the label of being a convicted felon.
Although there is an appeal pending on the constitutionality of the statute that I was convicted of.
So that will be heard later this year.
Okay.
Well, if there's anyone out there who thinks that they can help with that appeal or in any other way,
whether it be by finding you a book agent or who knows.
Who knows what's fine.
I wouldn't laugh quite so heartily there because it's a very good story.
It really is.
And it needs to be told to a lot more people than have already heard it.
And, you know, it's about time for some payback here, I think.
You know, you're entitled to something for having gone through this hell.
Oh, well.
So anyway, they can contact us through the magazine, which is 2600, and our phone number is 516-751-2600.
Or you can email.
Your email account is still up there, Bernie.
That's good.
We can send it.
Since I no longer have any computers, thanks to the Secret Service, I have to rely on you to get those messages to me in another form.
And, you know, that's another thing.
If someone out there has an old, like, you know, 286 or something that they'd like to donate to Bernie so he can get on the net, that would be a real help.
It really would.
Yeah.
So something simple like that, you know, these things, you don't have any use for them, then by all means, you know, feel free to donate them.
And you can write to Bernie at BernieS at 2600.com.
That's B-E-R-N-I-E-S at 2600.com.
And we'll get the message to him one way or another, and hopefully we'll get you online real soon.
Great.
All right, let's take some phone calls.
212-279-3400 if people have any questions or comments on things they've heard so far or things that we have not covered.
Good evening.
You're on Off the Hook.
Hello.
Yes.
Yes, go ahead.
Speak.
Oh, okay.
I'm calling about the new options that 9X has, which are very important.
And the American Telephone Consumers Council, which won a major reduction up in the Buffalo area and part of Nassau County in unlimited flat rate charges,
has been trying to come up with some kind of flat rate option for people in the New York and the 2-1-2 area where there's very little flat rate potential that exists.
Now, the new options that the phone company has, which we're making a study of, you can find out.
If you call the phone company and tell them you're interested in getting unlimited service, especially if you're in Manhattan,
they will analyze now your activity of a certain period, like June of 94 to June of 95,
and tell you what your average calling was, going either to the local area or to the regional area,
which would be your calls to 914-516-718.
Or the third option is both of them, where you would have both your local calls and your regional calls on an unlimited basis.
Now, what they do is they strike an average of what your calling activity was,
and they'll give you a figure, like maybe it was $13 or $25 or $50.
Now, if you agree to pay that amount for the period that you use this service on a monthly basis,
you can make all the calls you want to to that area that you take, either local, regional, or local and regional.
Right.
We're not sure how this measures up to other aspects of flat rate service, so we don't have a final finding on it,
but it would be good for people to check it out.
It doesn't cost anything to find out.
Just call the business office.
Right.
We've talked about this quite a bit, actually, over the last few weeks.
Oh, I'm sorry.
We didn't hear that.
No, it's an interesting pricing scheme, but, you know, it's bad in that they re-evaluate it after a year,
and then if you start taking advantage of it, you suddenly have to pay more.
Yes, well, they didn't explain that.
However, they did say you could go into it and come out of it on very short notice.
That's true.
That's true.
And you can also, you know, what we advise people to do is have two different phone lines,
one of which you use and one of which you don't use,
and then when the year is over, all of a sudden you can get a lower price for the one you didn't use for the last year.
But it seems like a ridiculous way to have a phone.
You know, you have to play these games.
Well, of course, there's another possibility that if, for instance, in the test period, June 94 to June 95,
you may have been out of town down in Florida or, you know, away for a good portion of the year,
so your average calling will be low and might be well below what you're really average.
Do you think it's possible that they will introduce a plan that's just a flat rate for everybody?
Well, actually, you know, we have pointed out to the New York Public Service Commission
innumerable hearings that the rates for flat rate service in New York State covered by 9x are the highest in the state and the nation.
We just got a $2 reduction in the Buffalo and Erie rate.
And by the way, for customers in 914 and 516, some areas of flat rate service there will get a rate reduction,
part of the regulatory plan that was approved.
That will start next year.
Buffalo, Erie County, and a small portion of Nassau County started now, but started rather in October.
But the other rate reductions will be forthcoming a year after October.
Now, one other thing you might be interested in, I just read this Alberta Telephone,
I think it's AGT Communications up in Canada.
They just put forth a new rate structure.
For $20, you get unlimited local and long distance,
but long distance, of course, applying to has to be carried by that company, so it's within Alberta.
$20 a month, that's $20 Canadian dollars, so it's substantially less than $20 American dollars.
But I think they've got the right idea there.
It's not something that's based on your calling patterns.
It's a flat rate for everybody.
Of course, nobody lives up there, but that's beside the point.
They have the right idea.
Yeah, well, of course, you have flat rates on limited service.
For instance, in California, the rate was as low as $8.
Texas, cities like Houston, which is the fourth or fifth largest city,
and the other big cities in Texas pay a rate of about $8 a month for flat rate service in their areas.
New York, though, has always used the value of service principle, which the commission agreed with them on.
And it had nothing to do with how far out of line New York state rates were compared to the rest of the country.
That's true.
But finally, we did make some breakthrough there because they were anxious to get this new kind of regulation plan where they can earn without a cap.
By the way, only Buffalo, Erie, and Nassau County bothered to send a representative in there.
They hired George Levine, and he came out with this reduction.
But the city of New York had people sat in there, but for some reason they took no position.
They could have demanded a flat rate offering for New York, for the New York City area.
Who decides who these people are?
I'm sorry, which people?
Who decides who the representatives are?
Where is that decision made?
Well, when they have a rate case, anyone can come into the rate case and represent themselves,
or in New York, which is unusual, they can represent other people.
So the American Telephone Consumers Council has been in these rate cases,
and in certain cases they've been able to be supported up in the Buffalo area by the UAW, for instance,
and by the City Council of Buffalo and the County Executive of Erie County and the same of Nassau County.
Anybody can go into the rate case.
Of course, the rate cases can take months and months.
They have an 11-month period.
Okay.
How can people get a hold of your group?
Because we have to move on to another call.
Oh, yes.
Okay.
Call 212-987-5514.
987-5514.
Okay.
Well, look, good luck, and let us know what happens in the future, okay?
Okay.
I'll keep you informed.
Okay.
Take care.
Bye-bye.
Thanks.
Bernie, do you have any flat rates down there that have just been introduced?
I'm not aware of any.
I knew that they were talking about it.
There was a notice sent out with the Atlantic phone bills that there was a pending tariff for that, but it hasn't been approved yet, as far as I know.
Okay.
It makes me nostalgic, though, for, you know, many years ago, that was, you know, before metered billing.
That's just the way it was for everyone.
But those days are long over.
And, of course, you're speaking from a Philadelphia perspective, so...
That's true.
It's probably quite different down there.
Okay.
Let's take another phone call.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Hello, Emanuel.
Concerning flat rate billing, I'm over here in good old New Jersey, Bell Atlantic Land.
They had complete flat rate calling for, I guess, the local calling area, which I believe is determined by Class 5 trunks emanating from the office.
And the most expensive I've seen is about $8.20 a month in the, I guess, Newark, Jersey City, Patterson area, which is most densely wired, down to about $6.50 a month in the lesser wired areas.
And just for the hell of it, I had, you know, I was just going through some of my art files, and I was considering, what would be a good name for the Bell Atlantic 9X merge?
Now, considering that Judge Green blew apart Ma Bell, kind of like the Voltron robot of the 1980s, and now you're starting to see it all assemble again, I was thinking, why not a name that kind of, like, reflects the other corner of the country?
You know, you have Southwestern Bell Telephone?
Uh-huh.
How about something like this in the genre of ESSO, which is Eastern Seaboard Standard Oil?
Eastern Seaboard Bell Telephone.
Well, you can't really say that.
Why?
ESBIT.
I mean, it doesn't...
ESBIT.
Yeah, I know.
It doesn't really flow.
We have to come up with a pronounceable acronym.
But I think, yeah, I think you're on, you've got the right idea there, because there's the Eastern Seaboard.
Yeah.
For the most part.
I mean, all the states have pretty much on the Eastern Seaboard of the country, so yeah, you can add that in there.
Is that, or are we just going to go with, like, names such as Hell Atlantic, Nudnix, Bellmouth, Ameriach, U.S. Pest, what was the other one?
Oh, man.
That's all I wanted to say.
Okay.
All right.
See you later.
All right.
Thanks for calling.
You've gotten us thinking about some important issues there.
Yeah.
Okay.
You know, speaking of New Jersey, do you know that AT&T today announced that they were laying off 40,000 workers?
40,000.
And about 7,000 of those are going to be from New Jersey.
Most of these are managerial positions, from what I understand.
Surprisingly, that 40,000 people is only 8% of their workforce.
That's something.
But every time they lay off a huge amount of people, it becomes a bigger percentage of their workforce.
And I think they have more computers working for them now than people.
Probably a lot more.
I'm sure.
Okay.
Let's take another phone call.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Hey.
How are you doing?
Okay.
Nice to meet you.
And listen, I have a question for you regarding, when you're talking about flat rate, flat rate for what?
Uh, just for regular telephone calls.
Oh.
I thought that was the rule in New York State.
Or City, rather.
Uh, how does it work, Fiber?
Because it's unavailable in New York City.
That's how it works.
Well, it's not unavailable now.
Well, now, since they came out with that new evaluation system.
But the flat rate of the past, I know on Long Island it's different than in the city.
Because they have different calling plans.
Right.
No, but you're saying flat rate meaning no matter how many calls you make.
Is that what you mean?
Yeah.
Oh, okay.
Well, right.
It's unavailable.
I thought you were talking about flat rate no matter how long you talk.
You're talking about timed.
Yeah.
Right.
Now, timed, untimed calls.
That's available in New York City.
That always has been.
Right.
Yeah.
For local calls, yeah, that's message rate.
Yeah.
The other question was a little while, actually a long while ago, you were talking about how,
basically, it seems like all the pay phones, after a little plunge into this pay phone,
it's served by MCI, that pay phone is served by Sprint.
It seems like everyone's going back to AT&T.
Does that seem to be the trend now that most all of 9X pay phones are AT&T now?
Well, I know that the Transit Authority have been using Sprint for quite some time.
I don't know if they still are.
I haven't noticed that recently.
But you're referring to for zero-plus calls.
Or even for one-plus calls.
One-plus is always AT&T as far as regular 9X pay phones go.
Right.
I thought that was supposed to be trending away from that, but I guess not.
I thought so, too, but I have not seen any indication that it is.
And you said that AT&T is the only one that's allowed to collect, or is that what you said,
AT&T is the only one that's allowed to collect coins?
Is that the reason why?
That's how it is.
Well, they don't do the actual collecting, but they're the only ones that, for some reason,
they're getting.
I don't understand why that is.
Does that make any sense to you, Fiber?
It doesn't make any sense, technically, but it seems that AT&T is the only long-distance carrier
that has permission to actually bill people for coin.
I don't know if there's any special rule or special contracts that are in place.
But, you know, seeing as how the other long-distance companies don't exactly seem to be beating down the door
to get to that income, I don't think there's very much income to be had.
That's probably true, and you're right.
They're not exactly making an incredible stink about it.
So, in any case...
They make most of their money from O-plus calls and surcharges and things like that.
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
Well, what's really interesting is that, you know, with all these mergers,
and I'm sure, you know, this is old hat,
but, hey, it would be kind of interesting if all the Baby Bells formed one company, wouldn't it?
I mean, what was the whole purpose of the freaking breakdown?
I mean, it's pretty ridiculous.
It is pretty silly.
I'd like to see them compete with each other, but merging together, I don't see...
Well, you can't compete with each other if you're serving different...
I mean, they're monopolies anyway, so...
Yeah, but, you know, I wouldn't mind seeing other R-box moving into this area and providing service.
Well, that's ultimately the idea behind the merge is because it's sort of the lesser of two evils
because what they want to finally happen, or so they say,
is that they want all the long-distance companies and all the Baby Bells to sort of be on equal footing
along with the cable companies, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
But, you know, obviously in a perfect world, but, you know, things change.
Well, I just wonder if there's any room whatsoever for new companies to start up.
If there isn't, then that means that something's wrong, I think.
Right. The second-to-last question is the...
You know, I never really knew that SNET was a company.
Was that one of the original Baby Bells, or, I mean, what is it?
Is it like a Rochester telephone company?
It's an independent.
So it's like Rochester.
Yeah, it's not part of the bell system, never was.
No, Connecticut never was, never had been part of New York Telephones, per se.
Part of Connecticut was part of New York Telephones.
It is still.
That Greenwich part.
It's not New York Telephone anymore.
Oh, part of 9X, yeah, a very small part.
Right, okay.
So I just assume New England meant Connecticut, but I guess not.
And the absolute last thing was, did you see that article in, was it Forbes magazine,
one of the business magazines, about the Internet?
Somebody made a really strange quote about it, and it was actually in Internet,
the, excuse me, Internet world, but in the last issue or so.
What did they say?
Well, this is good for, like, a chuckle, but it's pretty amazing what the mainstream publications
goes.
William Allman, it was Forbes, FYI, I guess it's an offshoot of the magazine.
William F. Allman says, you may be surprised to find that even in cyberspace, there are men
and women of taste, culture, and good breeding.
As opposed to the slums.
The slums and the seedier areas.
Well, as opposed to the seedier side of the Internet.
As opposed to inbreeding.
And then it ends, but the same article ends with this.
The net is still, in the end, fairly worthless.
Oh, good.
So this is a pretty interesting comment from someone who apparently doesn't seem to know
what goes on, so.
That's something.
Listen, thanks a lot for the call.
No problem.
Take care.
Now, I saw a very interesting piece in a magazine.
I just happened to be going through a whole lot of monitoring times last night, because
I guess I had nothing else to do.
And I was, I came upon this editorial that this guy had written, he was an old cranky ham operator,
you know, fed up with the way the world is, young punks taking over things, and, you know,
using bad language over the ham.
He happened to, like, stumble upon somebody using a computer, and they were using C-U-C-Me
for the first time.
And he actually, he saw somebody speaking and heard a voice coming back from far away,
some other country, with a strange accent.
And he talked into the computer, and he heard someone else talking to him from some really
godforsaken place someplace else.
And he was totally taken in by this.
He was totally taken in.
He said, this is it.
It's happening all over again.
You know, ham radio is kind of like, I'm not saying this, okay, so don't hit me with
all these phone calls and letters and things.
He was saying ham radio is kind of dead now, okay?
I'm not saying that.
I want to make sure that people know I'm not saying that.
But that's what he was sort of implying.
But he said the new ham radio type people are these people that are experimenting for
the first time, reaching out, meeting new people over the net, and actually speaking,
hearing each other's voices and seeing each other's faces to a degree.
Okay, let's take another phone call.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Go ahead.
Okay, you're going to have to move kind of fast, people, because, you know.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Yes, WBAI?
Yes, you're on the radio.
Yes, you caught me sleeping for a moment.
That's okay, as long as you woke up.
Yes, I just did.
Because you informed me about this new 9X pricing, I have two lines in my house.
One I never use.
One I use a lot.
And I need a place to get high quality, like a two-line phone with caller ID and a speaker
phone.
Am I stuck with the whiz, or is there a mail order place where I get real good stuff?
Well, actually, I have one that's a digital cordless.
That's a two-line phone with caller ID, and it's a 900 megahertz spread spectrum phone.
That sounds good.
With speaker phone.
And it was just under 300 bucks.
Now, who makes that?
You get it at the whiz.
It's made by a company called VTech.
VTech, okay.
Another quick question.
I read Newsday about some ring that was busted about, you know, cloning phones, and it said
each phone had 99 numbers.
That's got to be incorrect.
That they could make 99 different phone calls from one cellular phone.
99 numbers?
99 numbers.
Did it go into any kind of details, what they meant by numbers?
Well, it was a Newsday story.
99 numbers in a redial?
What?
Well, yeah, that's what I'm thinking.
That they misprinted it.
That they could...
They made it sound like each phone had 99 different numbers, so these guys could jump
around and not get caught using these cloned numbers.
Well, I mean, it's a trivial matter to program a phone with a different number.
But can a phone hold 99 different numbers?
There's software out there that allows you to modify the firmware in a cellular...
In some portable cellular phones, only certain models that let you store several banks of
individual phone number slash electronic serial number pairs.
Well, these Secret Service people all had the same phone lined up for their picture.
So it was one...
It looked like...
I don't know what kind...
It wasn't a Motorola, at least.
So it is possible.
Oki has made several phones over the years that were hacked and allowed to have several
sets of identities in the same phone.
And the dispossession of a phone like that now, even if it doesn't have anybody else's
phone numbers stored in it, dispossession of a phone that allows you to program numbers
into it, is now a federal felony.
Well, so is an FM scanning radio these days.
That's right.
Scanning receiver is...
Scanning receiver.
Yeah, we're moving forward.
Yeah.
You guys do great work and you have a great show.
Thank you.
Thank you very much for calling.
Okay, good night.
All right.
We have an announcement as far as the WBAI website.
You can reach your HTTP colon slash slash www.dorsai.org slash tilde WBAI.
And those of you who have done this before know what all that means.
And Dorsai is spelled D-O-R-S-A-I and check us out.
Look at our schedule.
And if you're interested in programming, if you want to be a...
If you are a CGI programmer or designer or volunteer of any sort that would like to work
on the web, contact us.
How do they contact us?
It doesn't say on this forum how they're supposed to contact us.
Just go to the site and there's a mailder to the webmaster right there.
Go to the site and there's a webmaster?
Oh, he's standing there?
Is there an email address?
Come on, how do we email?
Where do they mail to?
There's got to be a place we can mail to.
Oh, just send it to me.
Okay, what's your address?
Who are you?
Anyway, where are you coming from?
I don't even see this person.
He's in another studio someplace.
Hi, Dave Burstein here from the Wednesday Computer Show.
I'm trying to get the BAI website together, which is actually coming along.
Check it out.
Tell us what we're doing right, wrong.
And help us, please.
You can email DaveB at escape.com or call me here at the station.
I'm Dave Burstein.
Okay, well, thanks for stopping in.
We're out of time.
It's been fun.
Bernie S., we'll talk to you again next week.
Thank you.
Happy New Year.
Okay, you too.
Bye-bye.
And, Fiber, thanks for coming by.
We'll be back next week with another edition of Off the Hook.
Stay tuned for Housing Notebook.
We'll see you next week.
Good night.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
It could be yet much worse.
But if you could, they would.
I'm really born for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
I'm really born.
I'm really born.
And you are tuned to listener sponsor, WBAI.
FM in New York City, broadcasting at 99.5.
It is about 10 seconds away from 9 p.m.
Coming up next is Housing Notebook.