And listening to radio station WBAI in New York, where the time is just around 8 o'clock,
time for another edition of Off the Hook.
So I ripped it off the wall, I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
It could be yet much worse, but if that could be wood, I'm in the bone for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood, but I'm in the bone.
Off the Hook
And a very good evening to one and all.
The program is Off the Hook.
This is Emanuel Goldstein.
And we have a very interesting program scheduled for you tonight, where we'll be talking about all kinds of privacy issues, and telephony issues, and various other bits of information like that.
Plus, we'll be speaking with Bernie S. Actually, Bernie S., are you there with us now?
I think Bernie S. is on the phone someplace.
Ah, okay.
I'm here.
I'm sorry, I hit the wrong button. You know, after weeks in the studio, I still keep hitting the wrong buttons.
And there are so many buttons to hit, you know?
The new studio.
It's a brand new studio. You really should see it.
But that's a whole other matter.
How are you? How are things down in Philadelphia?
Pretty good. I wish I could see your new studio, actually, but the federal government won't let me.
Yeah, well, the federal government has its reasons for not letting you see the new studio, as I'm sure the good of the people is better served that way.
So, now, we're all kind of snowed in up here. I guess you're kind of snowed in down there as well.
Did you have fun during the blizzard this time?
Philadelphia got hit really bad. We got almost three feet.
And, yeah, I had fun.
Went and saw some friends locally, and every time we have a big storm, it still reminds me of the weekend when you and Fiberoptic came to Philadelphia.
The famous ice storm where we actually were able to postpone his visit to federal prison.
Yeah, that was funny. You might get the same kind of luck as far as that hearing coming up on Friday.
Hopefully, though, they'll just have the hearing and realize that putting you in prison for any more time is ridiculous for something as absurd as taking batteries out of a tone dialer.
I hope you're right.
Yeah, I do, too. The whole thing has been very absurd.
Speaking of things to do and things not to do, I basically defied everybody's orders, commands, advice, things like that, when they tell you not to drive during a blizzard.
Well, guess what I did?
Sunday afternoon, late Sunday afternoon, I was in New York City, and I said, you know, I'm tired of being in New York City.
I think I'd like to be on eastern Long Island now.
So, against everybody's advice, against condemnations from close people that I know that were saying they'd probably never see me again,
I got in my car and drove through Manhattan, got onto the Queensborough Bridge and the LIE and did the whole thing.
And, you know, the hardest part of it, the hardest part of the whole thing was getting up, I believe, Madison Avenue, because, you know, taxis just aren't meant for that kind of thing.
And all the taxis were going sideways, and you had to sort of veer through them.
And I had this, you know, tiny little foreign front-wheel drive car that was able to somehow maneuver in places where even trucks couldn't go.
And I didn't get stuck once.
I just kept plowing away, and the biggest problem I had were people that were just, you know, they weren't meant for driving in that kind of weather.
And, you know, I even went to a supermarket.
I went to a supermarket, went shopping.
There was nobody there because everybody wasn't crazy enough to be out.
No lines, no panicking, no rioting like I heard about.
You know, people were lined up to the back of stores to buy a quart of milk, you know, and it was really coming every man for himself.
That's what it was.
Being a nonconformist myself, I, too, had the urge to drive.
But in Pennsylvania, we had a governor's state of emergency order.
Now, what does that mean?
What does that mean, a governor's state of emergency?
Well, the governor felt that the interests of people would be best served if no one drove on the roads Sunday or Monday.
So the roads were closed.
All interstate, state, and local roads were closed to non-emergency traffic or non-essential traffic.
And, of course, I consider myself an essential person.
But to top it off, there was a $300 fine for anyone who was apprehended driving their non-emergency vehicle on a state or local highway in Pennsylvania.
That's unbelievable.
Unbelievable.
So if I had gone, ventured out, and driven around, and gotten that fine, I would have been in a unique situation of actually violating my federal probation by being convicted of another crime.
And I would go to jail for a minimum of five years, I'm sorry, for a minimum of five months for violating my probation as a result of driving my car on a street in Pennsylvania.
Well, you know, if the three strikes you're out rule was in effect, you'd be going to prison for life for that little prank there.
So, needless to say, I didn't risk that by driving around the corner store to buy a hoagie or a cheesesteak because I could go to prison for doing it.
You know, you ever notice how the people that tell you not to drive are the ones that are driving?
You know, the governor says, you know, stay inside, don't drive, and then he gets into his, you know, four-wheel drive and goes somewhere else to make a press conference.
The media people, they're the same thing.
You know, they have to go from place to place.
I mean, they had somebody at LaGuardia Airport, which was closed, shut down, nobody there.
But they had a reporter there to tell you that nobody's there.
You know, they actually had to go to the trouble to get this person there and then get this person back.
And they're telling us not to drive and not to create hazardous situations, you know.
And all the people that tell you not to do these things are the ones that are the exceptions to the rules, you know.
They're the essential personnel.
I mean, they could tell you from their home and on telephone, couldn't they?
Probably.
Yeah, I would think so.
But anyway, the thing is, the blizzard was great fun.
I mean, this is all I mean, right?
When I say winter should be like this, this is what I mean.
Winter should be like this every year.
This is what snow really is.
And, you know, I don't see why people have such a problem with that concept.
That's what it's all about.
Are you on a cordless phone?
I am.
Is it noisy?
Yes, it's very noisy.
Oh, okay.
Very distracting.
I figured I'd save the government the trouble of tapping my phone and use a cordless phone
so they don't have to go through so many problems with tapping wires and such.
You're on a 50,000-watt radio station in New York City.
I think it's conceivable that the government could tune us in and record it that way.
We know they've done that, actually.
We know they've tried and failed, but I think they've got it down now.
99.5 FM.
Of course, if they're not listening, that won't do them any good.
I don't think there's a single person listening right now live over the radio in our tri-state area
that has not been affected in some way by the weather in this particular...
I mean, we're always affected by the weather, but everybody's life has been adversely affected in some way.
I don't mean adversely in a bad way.
I mean, you know, it's been affected in some way.
You've either started talking to people, you've done things differently, you've altered your habits.
And, you know, it's something that we don't really think about all that much.
There are all these all-encompassing things that are always out there that are affecting us in some way.
Sometimes it's not so obvious that it's affecting us.
And I think a lot of what we talk about week after week on this program is kind of like that.
It's not as blatant as two feet of snow falling on the ground, but it's omnipresent.
It's always there. It's surrounding us.
And sometimes it's very, very gradual. We don't see it.
But there isn't a single person, I think, in the country that will not be affected by the things that lie ahead
on the Internet, on the telephone network, the various privacy laws that are being passed and played with and things like that.
Or anti-privacy laws.
Exactly.
If you want to look at them that way.
Exactly. And we've got some of that to talk about.
But, you know, there's one thing that I'd like to sort of share with people before we get started tonight.
And that's something that I was cooped up in my house.
I needed something to play with.
So I decided to use the World Wide Web, which is always a fun thing to play with.
You really haven't had the opportunity to do that yet, have you, Bernie?
Well, I do at work.
I can scroll through different homepages on my workstation where I work in between phone calls that I get.
So that's interesting.
Although they have the server blocked out, so I can't receive any news.
I can't connect any news groups or send email or receive email.
But I can look at webpages.
To your heart's content.
That's great.
Well, there are an increasing number of interesting things on webpages.
And one thing that I decided to play with this time was the Federal Express tracking system.
Now, I'd sent my computer, my little laptop, out to be fixed because it was totally messed up.
You know, there are all kinds of things wrong with it.
And, you know, I discovered when I sent it out that I had one day left on the warranty, which was pretty lucky on my part.
But I had to get to a Federal Express office.
I understand Federal Express isn't delivering because of the snow.
And neither was the post office.
I don't know where they get this motto, neither rain nor snow.
You know, hello, this is snow.
You know, you should be delivering.
And gloom of night either.
I can never understand that one because I never get mail at night.
But the snow certainly prevented them from doing this and Federal Express as well.
But I decided to track my package, the package I sent on Friday, to Memphis, Tennessee.
For my little laptop to get fixed and see if it ever made it there.
And so I clicked on FedEx.com on the World Wide Web.
And I selected the electronic services that they offer, the online services.
And they have this online tracking.
Now, I entered my Air Bill number.
Not your Federal Express account number.
Your Air Bill number.
It's on the actual Air Bill itself.
All right.
Now, I am not going to give you my Air Bill number because I believe I have the right to protect my privacy as far as that particular number goes.
However, I will give you other people's Air Bill numbers because I have no idea who they are.
And I just made them up off the top of my head.
But in any event, let's track down my package.
This is what I found out on the web as soon as I clicked on to my number.
Package has been delivered.
Delivered to shipping slash receiving.
Delivery time, 6.16 in the morning on Monday.
Signed for by C. Davis.
And they have cartage agent, which I never heard the word cartage before in my life.
I don't know what it even means.
I guess it's how they deliver it.
But I would assume it would be FedEx no matter what.
Scan activity.
All scans reflect local time.
Now, this goes in reverse order.
So I'll start from the bottom.
Picked up in New York at 7.42 p.m.
Left New York at 8.05 p.m.
Left Newark, New Jersey at 1.51 in the morning.
Then it left Memphis, Tennessee at 4.06 p.m. the next day on Sunday.
It was delivered to Memphis, Tennessee on the 8th of January at 6.16 in the morning.
And delivered at that same time.
And signed for by C. Davis.
And there's my package right there.
You know, don't you think that's incredible that I can just click on something and do that?
Does this allow you to see the digitized photograph?
Uh, no.
Not digitized photograph.
Digitized signature, I meant to say.
No, not on the web anyway.
But they have those little handheld devices, you know, that do incredible things.
Yeah, there's that.
And then at least UPS has this tablet where the pressure-sensitive pad that the receiver of the package signs for it.
And the signature is digitized and then transmitted by cellular telephone to UPS's computer network.
Well, what I...
Is that call waiting on a 1AESS there, huh?
That's exactly what it is.
Wow.
I'm going to ignore it.
Yes, I suggest you do.
I don't like my calls being interrupted.
What I think is interesting is you have a whole can of privacy worms when your signature is digitized
and can be cut and pasted anywhere by anyone who has a copy of it.
So I don't like to sign anything where my signature can be easily duplicated by anyone.
Right, especially when there are companies out there like maybe PSI that take fax signatures as gospel,
as a fax contract is worth anything.
But never mind.
We have some other...
Let's just go into this for a moment.
We have some other FedEx tracking numbers that we took the time to sort of click on at random.
Now, Joker is here, and I believe you have one of those printouts.
Yeah.
One comment before I get into this about the UPS.
Have you ever seen the size of the digital screen?
It's about four inches long by less than a half an inch high.
I can't sign my signature within that space.
It's like trying to sign your signature on the back of a credit card.
It never works.
I have never had a problem just totally scribbling in that whenever I've received a package from UPS,
and they give you the package.
Well, I try to draw a horizontal line usually, but the thing is, it's hard to do that even,
so it looks like a signature when you're finished.
And they accept that.
Now, start off by telling us the air bill number, because anybody can enter this air bill number.
Okay, the air bill number is 789-3680-435.
Okay.
A package has been delivered.
Delivered to Recep Front Desk.
Delivery time, 10-10.
Signed for by M. Abney.
M. Abney.
You see, yours was delivered to the front desk.
Mine was delivered to Shipping and Receiving.
So that's a different sign.
Cartage agent is blank.
Now, the scan activity, it's backwards.
This is really odd, because it looks like it was delivered back to the same place.
Where did this package come from?
Well, it says, left origin, location, Atlanta, Georgia, on the 3rd of January at 2052, which would be...
8.52 p.m.
Right, 8.52 p.m.
Picked up in Atlanta, Georgia on 1-3.
Actually, no, this has an earlier time for the pickup.
It got picked up earlier than it was delivered?
Well, it says it got picked up at 8.13.
Uh-huh.
And then it says 22 Atlanta, Georgia, the 3rd of January at 2209.
And it was Columbia, South Carolina on the 4th of January at 3.45.
It doesn't say a.m. or p.m., so I'm assuming that's a.m. because it's on 24-hour time.
Yeah, it's 24-hour time.
Right.
Arrived at destination, Augusta, Georgia, on the 4th at 7.50 a.m.,
delivered Augusta, Georgia on the 4th at 10.10 a.m.,
and package on van and Augusta, Georgia on the 4th at 8.18 in the morning.
So how much time passed between when it was dropped off and when it was delivered?
Well, my package was dropped off on Thursday, Friday night, Friday evening about 7.30,
and it was delivered at 6 in the morning on Monday, which is about right.
That's when I expected it to be delivered.
Yeah.
See, this is weird because I think they've got this backwards on certain points
because it says picked up at Atlanta, Georgia, and then it says left origin location.
I would assume that means picked up.
That's usually about the same time.
It should be about the same time.
Right.
Well, there's a delay, and the second one, if you're going backwards,
the second one is actually earlier.
I would assume that means it was picked up from the front desk
and then actually left the building at 20.52, so they have this backwards.
And then it says delivered Augusta, Georgia on the 4th at 10.10 a.m.,
but the package on van was at 8.18 a.m.,
so I would assume they put it on the van before it was delivered.
Well, yeah, that's usually a good policy to do that.
But the way it's listed here is backwards.
Does the system explain who the address, where the package was delivered to?
That does not give the address, and I think that's a good security measure right there.
If it did that, it would be wide open for anybody to find out anything.
This is already pretty invasive right here.
All you have to do is enter the number.
I've got a package here that came from Grand Forks, North Dakota, on the 5th of January.
This is air bill number 789-368-0465.
Those of you at home, feel free to click on the web page along with us.
It was delivered to shipping and receiving at 6.35 in the morning,
signed for by Napoleon, it looks like.
It says right there, .n-o-p-e-l-e-o-n.
So there's some wise guy signing his name, Napoleon, in Memphis, Tennessee,
because this wound up in Memphis, too.
I don't know why they're all winding up in Memphis.
Some of them, maybe it's got something to do.
Yeah, it's a shipping hub, but this is the final destination.
Oh, there's a huge FedEx shipping hub in Washington, D.C., as well.
Well, this was picked up from Grand Forks on the 5th at 3.29.
It left the origin at 6.08 p.m.
Then it, this is interesting, it left the hub in Memphis, Tennessee, twice.
It left at 3.39 in the morning, then it left again at 3.40 in the morning.
So there's some hanky-panky going on there.
I don't know what that was all about.
It was then delivered three hours later in Memphis, Tennessee.
I don't know where it was for the three hours.
It didn't leave the city.
And then, well, that was the final thing.
It was on the van one minute before it was delivered.
I imagine these air bill numbers, I used to work at a company where we had just a bunch of FedEx labels in a stack,
and the stack of air bill labels were consecutively numbered.
So I imagine if you enter consecutive numbers,
you may find the ability to track a number of packages sent by the same individual or company.
Yeah, that's probably true because the air bills follow some sort of sequential numbers.
Right, and usually the FedEx guy will drop off a bunch of blank air bills, air bill tickets at your company.
I just thought of the greatest scam.
You give somebody that you want to track a whole bunch of FedEx billing things.
You have the numbers.
You can see where they're sending packages to.
Feds, federal agents out there, you're listening to this.
This is a great idea.
You get your target, and you simply leave them at the front desk, right?
Eventually, they're going to have to send the package out, and then you're right there.
You're clicking on the web every day, and you see where they're sending packages from.
You draw those people into the conspiracy.
Before you know it, you've got a nationwide thing on your hands.
If you order an expensive laptop computer from some mail or a company,
and then they ship it to you, you ask that they ship it to FedEx,
odds are that your tracking number or air bill number will be one in a series of consecutive numbers.
So trying to go backwards here, you could probably find out when and where other packages were shipped
with expensive computer equipment or who knows what.
Yeah, this is something for criminals to take note of.
That's something everybody should try to protect themselves from and look at these things backwards
so that you're not a victim.
Joker, what more information is needed to pick up a package?
Do you need ID?
Have you ever had to show ID to pick up a FedEx package,
or can you just go in with, hi, this is my air bill number?
Well, the thing is, I know where it's coming from.
See, FedEx is supposed to deliver it to you.
You're not supposed to go to them to get it, although they've been suggesting that recently.
That's not true.
If you know the, I don't know if it's either the, I'm assuming it's the air bill number,
you can call your local FedEx office and have them hold the package there for you.
Well, that's something.
That is something.
So if you trace an air bill in progress, you might be able to stop that air bill.
Right.
If you know your shipping number, which is, I'm assuming, the air bill number here,
you call up the local office that it goes through and say, hi, you know, I'm not at work today.
Could you, I'm expecting a package from blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Or you hold it there.
You call the company that you know is sending out a package, say your Federal Express, and say, yeah, you know,
we're just having a little trouble with the package.
What was that air bill number again?
You know, not your account number.
That wouldn't be right for us to ask for that.
But even though the account number is printed every time they send a package,
I don't understand how they prevent people from sending packages and billing it to other people.
I think it would probably, hypothetically speaking, of course, be very easy to walk into a FedEx office
with either with the air bill number plus your account number,
knowing what the package is and where it's sent from, and not have to produce any ID whatsoever.
UPS has a similar system.
I believe it's ups.com.
I haven't checked that one out because I haven't sent the package through them.
But if anyone out there has been playing around with these things, let us know what you find.
You know, don't get into trouble, though.
Just be careful.
Okay, we have another special part of our program here.
It involves another project, which someone else is engaged in, on the west coast of the United States.
And this involves something that affects every single last one of us, whether we want it to or not,
and that is social security numbers.
Social security numbers, those little nine-digit numbers that follow us around from birth to death,
and sometimes beyond that.
Here's a little fact sheet that's been passed around on the Internet.
And I'd like folks to listen to this carefully and try to gauge your emotional reaction
as I continue on these various things that I'm saying here.
And if you sense anger and sort of an invasive type of feeling, like you're being violated in some way,
make note of that and try to write down when you feel that.
Okay, this is the Nationwide SSN Collection Project.
Question number one, and this is directed to a person.
Why are you collecting SSNs, social security numbers?
Answer, for fun and amusement.
Question number two, what do you plan to do with them?
Answer, put them on sweatshirts and sell them through specialty clothing retailers.
It has been suggested also that I post them on large billboards along the Mexican border,
but I don't have enough capital to pull off such a stunt at this time.
Number three, how long do you intend to continue this?
Answer, until it becomes illegal.
The moment any legitimate government authority informs me of the specific laws which,
A, forbid the collection, recording, and distribution of SSNs by private parties,
and B, provide legal recourse for the individual citizen against private parties which do so,
at that point, I will stop.
Question four, what if the government finds out what you're doing?
Answer, first off, the government knows very well what I'm doing.
I've been reported multiple times to the SSA and the Secret Service.
Secondly, the government can find me quite easily.
I'm in the phone book.
Third, I will cooperate completely with any legitimate government authority.
Question five, here's my ex-spouse's SSN.
Will you make him or her miserable for me?
Answer, hell no.
If you want me to engage in illegal activity for you, then go somewhere else.
Question six, isn't what you are doing illegal?
Answer, not according to the SSA, that's Social Security Administration.
They have declared the private use of the SSN unrestricted.
Question seven, if my name or SSN were in your database, would you tell me?
Answer, in order for me to confirm this, you must first tell me what your full name and SSN is.
Then I will tell you if you are already in there.
If this sounds like two-faced hypocrisy, great.
I got the idea from CBI Equifax.
That's their very own policy.
If you don't tell them what your SSN is, they won't tell you what they've got on you.
Therefore, I have decided to do the exact same thing.
If you don't believe it, why don't you call them and ask for yourself?
Question eight, what if someone did the same thing to you?
How would you feel?
Answer, this already has happened to me.
I told the SSA office about it repeatedly and they would take no action.
Question nine, how did this all start?
Answer, in 1985, a co-worker learned that I object to the uni-number concept of identifying a single person across multiple databases.
I was and still am specifically concerned about the use of the SSN for non-tax identification.
The company placed our SSNs on our name tags, which thankfully we did not have to wear constantly,
although we would occasionally have to display it for a guard during certain times.
This co-worker went poking through my briefcase while I was out of the office,
copied down my SSN, and then for his own fun and amusement,
I'm guessing at his motives, I don't know his true reasons,
displayed it for me and would not tell me where he got it.
Seeing that this angered me, he then went to other co-workers who joined him in making my SSN even more public.
They then went to the personnel files, which the company made no attempt to keep locked,
and double-checked the number with my job application.
After that, they memorized it, and again, I'm guessing here for their own amusement,
they would recite it in unison around the lunch table.
I know this sounds impossible, but it really did happen.
After that job ended, not very happily,
I let myself cool off for a few months and then moved to another city.
During my time in that other city, I contacted the SSA office there, seeking another SSN.
I made dozens of phone calls, wrote letter after letter, all to no avail.
My letters got shorter and to the point, not long drawn-out things.
It only took 30 seconds to read them.
This continued for several months.
The result was always the same, words without action, and no replacement SSN.
The company in that city went down the tube, and I had to move again.
I wrote and called off and on over the next few years, got the same treatment, empty words, etc., etc.
September of 1993, the SSA finally came out and gave their official written approval
for unrestricted use of the SSN by private individuals and private organizations for any purpose,
including fun and amusement.
The pamphlet is entitled Your Social Security Number.
It's SSA Publication 05-1002, dated September 1993.
You can get a copy by calling them at 1-800-772-1213.
And on page 9 of that pamphlet, they have finally removed all restrictions on the private use of the SSN,
and they've put it in writing.
Because there is no law concerning the use of a person's Social Security Number by a private individual or organization,
Social Security has no control over such use.
So, if those are the rules they've made, fine.
Those are the rules by which I will act.
The collection and distribution of other people's SSNs is, as you've just heard,
a legally unrestricted activity, and that is exactly what I am doing.
Question 10.
Where do you get the SSNs?
Answer, there is no law.
So, just like CBI, TRW, TransUnion, etc., etc., I don't have to tell you where I got yours.
Ask CBI where they got your SSN.
They won't tell you, and neither will I.
Question 11.
How do you check for accuracy?
This question bothered me a lot at first.
However, it has become astoundingly simple to check whether a number is accurate or not.
So, just exactly how do I do this?
CBI doesn't have to tell, and neither do I.
There is no law.
And, uh, question 12.
The final question.
How can I get a copy of your list?
Answer.
Unfortunately, I found the drones to outnumber the worker bees by a factor of about 10 to 1.
This is not the soup kitchen.
It's a group project.
If you want SSNs from me, then I want SSNs from you.
In the past, I offered a one-for-one exchange.
I will no longer make that public offer.
What is offered is this.
If you will send me full names and SSNs of prominently elected officials, media babes, et al.,
then I will, to the extent my database allows, send you back full names and SSNs of other prominent politicians, etc., etc.
Of course, full names and SSNs of any individual or group are still welcome.
They just don't qualify for the one-for-one offer.
And that was signed by Mr. Clint Danbury.
And we have Clint Danbury on the phone with us right now, live from California.
Clint, are you there?
Hello.
This is Clint, talking to you on a recorded line.
Okay, great.
Well, now, this is quite a project that you started.
First of all, when did you start the project?
How long ago did this be?
I started two or three years ago, 92 or 93.
I don't have that in my head.
I got real discouraged because I was just making an idiot of myself on the Internet,
and I wasn't getting any real media coverage.
And so when I lost my Internet connection due to a job change and whatnot,
I just sat on the project and didn't do anything.
I got a piece of mail from somebody,
and they wanted to see a copy of a newspaper article about me.
And there I read in that article, you know,
Danbury has vowed that he will continue this project until it is illegal.
And at that time, I realized, you know, well, okay, I made a promise.
I'll keep the promise.
So it's been going on for more than a year.
If you count the five- or six-month stint that I wasn't active,
it's been about three or four years, two or three years now.
Now, I guess you really have the view that social security numbers have become
more or less our names in modern-day society.
Is there anything you can suggest for people to protect their SSNs from getting out?
What can you do to protect it?
No, to tell you the truth, it's...
Nothing you can do, huh?
Well, there are certainly things you can do,
but in real life, we don't have very much power.
I mean, if, okay, you cut your hand and you're going to go to the hospital,
hope to get sewed up before you die, you know,
they have the legal right to say,
if you want to live, you will give me your social security number, okay?
That's incredible.
Now, you wanted to change your social security number.
Were you ever able to do that?
No.
The closest I ever got,
and it got to the point that I realized I was becoming a pest,
and I did not want to be that role.
The closest I ever got was one human told me over the telephone
that the business of memorizing social security numbers and reciting them
is a violation, okay?
And that I...
But the phrase,
you should have another number,
never came out of her mouth.
And...
What kind of a violation would that be, though?
That's an excellent...
Yep.
According to what they've printed now in 1993,
that that is not a violation, okay?
So that's the closest I've ever gotten anyone,
any human in the Social Security Administration,
to even acknowledge that I might have half a case for getting another number.
Uh-huh.
Now, it's pretty easy these days to change your name,
but I guess changing your number is a lot harder
because that probably really is your name, right?
Yeah.
I think that if you are a federal witness in the Federal Witness Protection Program,
I think you can sometimes get it changed.
Well, I would hope so.
I mean, if you couldn't do that, imagine a trouble you'd have.
Say, Clint.
Oh, yeah.
Unfortunately, I don't deal with those kind of people very much.
Say, Clint.
Yes, you have a question.
Yeah, I have a couple of comments I wanted to make.
I spent most of 1995 in federal prison,
and you meet a lot of interesting people in federal prison.
One guy I met was there for some sort of smuggling charge,
but he told me that he got his Social Security number changed very easily,
and what he did was he went to his Social Security office
and was given the typical blow-off that you were given
and was told that the only way you could get it changed
is if you could show that your number had been used fraudulently,
and then you could get it changed.
So what he did is he just went home to his computer
and typed up a letter from some fictitious company
indicating that his Social Security number had been used fraudulently
and went to his Social Security office
with other documentation showing that some purchase was made
without his authorization.
He was able to easily whip something up,
and they granted him a new Social Security number.
He also changed the spelling of his last name.
That he had to do through a local judge.
Again, under the auspices of saying that his name
and Social Security number had been appropriated by someone else.
So that seems to be the way that it's done,
and this person seemed to be pretty sincere,
and I developed a pretty good relationship with him.
He'd have no reason to make this story up.
So that may be one way you could successfully get your Social Security number changed
if you could convince the Social Security Administration
that your number had been purloined by someone
and used to try to defraud you.
Then you can get it changed.
Yep.
You see, even that would require making a false statement
to a government official, okay?
True.
And I'm not even going to go that far.
What I'm telling you is the moment what I'm doing becomes illegal,
I will stop.
Have you read the United States Code to Title 18, Section 1029?
I don't remember doing that, not in the past week or so.
That's a...
You would remember reading that, yes.
But that's a section of law that I actually was charged with violating in 1995
pertaining to fraud and related activity in connection with access devices.
A lot of people wonder, well, what's an access device?
There's a definition here.
It says, as used in this section, the term access device means any card, plate, code,
account number, electronic serial number, mobile identification number.
Those last two things pertain to cellular phones, ostensibly.
Personal identification number or other telecommunications, service, equipment,
or instrument identifier, or other means of account access that can be used alone
or in conjunction with another access device to obtain money, goods, services,
or any other thing of value, or that can be used to initiate a transfer of funds
other than a transfer originated solely by paper instruments.
That last little thing in there is trying to separate it from some check fraud laws,
which is a whole separate body of law.
But by that definition, personal identification number,
I think you might agree that a Social Security number qualifies as a personal identification number,
doesn't it?
Well, I think if you really define that thing the way it sounds,
you can identify individual digits as pieces of the puzzle.
I think what they mean by pins, personal identification numbers,
are the numbers you use on your credit cards or your bank cards.
Ah, okay.
Personal identification number, yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
Because there are laws against lifting pins.
Right.
And you, incidentally, when you go to an ATM,
take your left hand and put it over your right hand when you punch the numbers.
I mean, I can't believe the number of people that give away pins on their phone cards and ATMs.
Oh, well.
Yeah, and they also leave their receipts behind afterwards.
Oh, yeah, there's a beautiful one, yeah.
That makes it easy to make the duplicate cards.
Oh, by the way, a little good word here for B of A, Bank of America.
They have stopped printing the card on the slip that they put about where they used to have,
like, one, two, three, four, five is the last five digits of the receipt.
They just put XXXXX now.
I see.
So at least somebody is helping a little bit.
Uh-huh.
But, um...
Clint, let me ask you something.
Have you ever tried just applying for another Social Security number?
I'm told that you can have more than one as long as you don't use them for fraudulent purposes.
Oh, yes, I know good and well you can have more than one.
But anyway, no, I've never tried applying for a second one.
You mean that's possible?
Sure, try applying for a second one.
What's the worst that they can do?
You know, they say you can't have a second one, but you can at least try.
If it's not illegal to have, you know, two of them, you know, then I don't see what the problem is as far as that goes.
No, that would be nice.
Yeah, well, I mean, just try it and see what happens.
Because, yeah, because what I really object, the danger that I really see, and it's a harm to the private business, especially the small business, is that with that number you can know somebody else's income.
And I think it is very unhealthy for me to know my boss's income and all my coworkers' income.
Absolutely.
I think that's very harmful to the small company.
Now, the Social Security number is being given out to phone companies, it's being given to schools, it becomes your name at school, actually.
Yeah.
Virtually every job application has Social Security number.
Well, of course, I guess you would need it for that because you're writing checks to the person, but I don't think you need it on the application.
No, the only place you really need the Social Security is on the W-4.
Uh-huh.
And that's really what it was intended for in the first place, Social Security.
It was never really intended to be an identification number.
I went into a pharmacy recently, I think it was a couple of weeks ago, to get a prescription for some antibiotics.
I was pretty sick.
And I think it was CVS, although I may be mistaken, so CVS, don't sue me.
The clerk at the desk demanded or asked first, asked for my Social Security number before she gave me the medication, this prescription medication, obviously.
And I said, well, what do you need that for?
She said, well, we need to keep track of your medication in our computer.
I said, well, I'm perfectly capable of keeping track of my own medication, thank you.
And she said, well, I can't give you your medication unless you give me your Social Security number.
I said, well, you're not even a government agency.
You have no business using my Social Security number.
And she was sort of stymied by that.
And she said, well, then you have to sign this form saying that you're not willing to give your Social Security number.
And I said, well, I'm not going to sign anything of that effect.
I want my medication.
I started making a lot of noise.
She finally just gave me the prescription, and I left.
Bingo.
Yeah, exactly.
It was a real hassle.
In other words, she was lying.
Well, she didn't know.
I think she was just under the order by her boss or whoever to always just get the Social Security number.
So many people operate on other people's orders without thinking about them.
That's a good example of that.
Okay.
Then her boss was lying through her.
Sure.
Well, a lot of people are just doing it out of their own ignorance.
Yeah.
They think that it's required, and they do it.
Oh.
Can I go back to something else you said?
Sure.
You said that in school it is your name, right?
Absolutely.
When you go to a university or whatever.
Yes.
Okay.
If there's anybody listening that is interested in helping and contributing to this, and you're on a university,
that's one of the best places in the world to lift Social Security numbers because universities are extremely lax with that,
and they give it out to anybody, okay?
So it would be, if there is someone listening who likes the idea and wants to participate,
please encourage them to get in touch with me.
We'll give my address at the end of the spiel, okay?
Yes.
I can remember my days at Penn State when they used to, of course, it was a few years ago, early 80s.
They used to post the grades of everyone on a bulletin board, and they wouldn't put our names.
They just would have this long column of Social Security numbers followed by your grade.
Oh, yeah.
I took a junior course at a college, a course at a junior college, excuse me.
I'm getting excited here.
Anyway, and they passed around a sheet of paper on a clipboard, and it had everybody's name and Social Security number written down.
Wow.
So that was real nice.
I picked up, let's see, I didn't do it all at once.
I just picked up one or two names per night when I took the course.
That's amazing.
But it was really great that they were, you know, just helping, you know, giving me some numbers.
Give me a little pot of 30 or 40 numbers there.
Well, Clint, are you interested in just numbers with no matching names?
Because that's easy to get.
Or do you want both?
It's better if I have both because I really want, well, first off, all the Joe Schmoes out there, you know, those people are not the ones that are going to get any action.
I have no interest in putting their names on sweatshirts and stuff.
I want the highly elected politicians who are not going to take any action about this, okay?
I want the congressmen, the VP, the presidents, the governors, these guys, okay?
The second group I really want is the media babes, the people on the read-the-news-to-you show at night, okay?
These are the people that are going to bring action.
You can remember that there was no law against video rental lists.
They were just as public as anybody wanted to make them.
That's right.
In fact, we demonstrated that a couple of years ago.
We called up a video store live on the air and asked, hey, what videos have I looked at recently?
And gave them a totally bogus name of somebody else, and they told us.
Oh, that's great.
A bunch of slasher films we had the guy turned in.
Oh, gross.
But apart from that, yeah, you know, I was trying to get Dan Quayle's Social Security number a couple of years ago.
To no avail, the White House just wouldn't give it to me.
And I don't know how easy it is.
I mean, do you verify these things?
If someone gives you an SSN, you know, of Al D'Amato or something like that,
will you say, okay, I'm going to check this to make sure it's right?
Yes.
Usually, okay, the people who have been giving them to me have been giving them to me in pots, in pools, I should say.
And, yes, I do have a verification method.
What that method is, I won't tell you.
Okay, yes.
It's like the credit agencies will not tell us either.
That's right.
They can get the number any way they want, and they don't have to tell me where they got it, how they got it,
and they don't have to tell me whether or not they have verified it, and if not, how.
Well, you know, there are certain laws in place that protect the privacy of the credit agencies, I guess.
I mean, that must be what it is, right?
Are you kidding?
They can't be sued.
They can't be sued for destroying your life.
I'm sorry, I don't have that paper in front of me, okay?
But for having bogus information about you, they cannot be sued.
Right.
And, furthermore, they don't even have to take it out.
All they have to do is put your, you know, if I can say that you tricked me into a massive deal
and I lost $10,000 and you're laughing all the way to the bank about it, okay,
and that goes in your credit record, they don't have to take that out.
Oh, wait, wait, wait.
I'm sorry, I'm not a lawyer.
I don't know the exact rules, but it is my understanding that they only have to give you the chance to put your statement in there
that, you know, these are all lies.
Bernie, you have something on this?
That's right.
They are required to allow you to make a dissenting comment.
But are they required?
If you dispute it and if they don't take it out, you're allowed to, they're not required to take it out,
but if they refuse to take it out, then they are required to allow you to voice your side of the story.
I don't think you're given much space, though.
You can't, like, go into a long story about it.
It's got to be a pretty short description, I think.
Yeah.
Well, it's pretty easy.
Somebody could just get war and peace or something and, you know, send a CD and say,
I want this on my own.
That'd be interesting.
Yeah.
So.
Well, that's a pretty interesting way of looking at things here.
I'd be careful, Clint.
Frankly, what I was charged with, I was charged with violating Section 1029 earlier this year
under the fraud and related activity in connection with access devices.
Okay.
And, interestingly enough, I was not charged with defrauding anyone.
I was charged with merely possessing and distributing common parts, electronic parts, quartz crystals.
I thought there was no law against this at all, but, unfortunately, a new federal law had been passed
only a few weeks before I was charged with selling these parts.
Okay.
And I ended up spending seven months in federal prison, or six months in federal prison,
another month in a county prison before that from the initial charge.
But you can be smug and say, well, I don't know of any law that makes this illegal.
Yeah.
And then they will quietly put together a case and nail people.
And their favorite targets, I think, are high-profile people.
Were you high-profile doing this?
Well, in a way, yes.
Where were you advertising?
I was advertising in 2600 magazine and various bulletin boards, and it was just a word-of-mouth sort of thing.
These crystals were commonly available.
In fact, you can also purchase them at Radio Shack.
Well, you spoke at conferences and various other places.
Yeah, I spoke at conferences explaining how these crystals can be used for all kinds of things.
Some of those applications included manufacturing red boxes, which can fool pay phones into thinking
that you put quarters into them when you really haven't.
But I was not charged with selling any red boxes, just parts that were commonly available
that people could put together with other things to build red boxes.
Now, by this term access device in Section 1029, I can see, again, any card, plate, code,
account number, personal identification number, or other means of account access that can be used alone
or in conjunction with any other access device to obtain money, goods, services, or any other thing of value.
I can see Social Security number falling under that definition.
Yes, but wouldn't that same, if they came up with a law to prosecute him based on that,
wouldn't that same law apply to the credit agencies? We're doing the same thing?
Sure, by the letter of the law, yes.
But as we all know, these laws were enforced very selectively.
Oh, yeah.
In my case, Radio Shack was selling the same parts that I was selling.
The government didn't prosecute Radio Shack.
Okay. Now, did you get a jury trial?
No. I was coerced into making a guilty plea under the penalty of receiving a much lengthier sentence
if I were convicted, and by the definition of the law, I was guilty.
I possessed parts that could be used to commit fraud, and that's...
Wait a minute. Parts that could be used to commit fraud?
That's right.
That's right.
I can read you the statute that I was charged with if you want,
but we're getting off the subject of your thing, though.
Okay. No, no, no.
I mean, because I certainly, I do not want to break any law.
I know you don't.
Okay.
And I didn't think I was breaking any laws either.
None of us want to break laws.
I mean, that's...
But the thing is, well, we need to obviously speak to legal people
concerning whether or not a particular law is being violated,
but I don't, you know, by your explanation, I do not see it happening.
I see you doing the exact same thing that the credit card companies are doing,
or actually the credit reporting agencies are doing,
and at the same time bringing to our attention a very important privacy void that exists out there.
By the way, let me just say our phone number is 212-279-3400.
We're taking phone calls, but please keep the phone calls to the topic,
which is right now social security numbers, privacy, issues like that.
Don't talk about ISDN.
We're not talking about ISDN this week or any other topics that we're not talking about.
Joker, you have something.
Yeah, I have a couple questions for Clint.
One, what's the deal with the T-shirts?
I keep hearing you mention it, talking about printing social security numbers on T-shirts,
and how does that work for somebody who wants one?
And then the second question was about how many social security numbers do you have on this list as of this point?
Okay.
I've got hundreds of social security numbers of Citizen Jane and Joe Smith and those type of people,
and I have no interest in selling theirs, okay?
I do not have a big enough list of government people and media baits to make it worthwhile at this time.
Well, I believe Geraldo Rivera challenged us a few years ago to get his credit report,
and I'm sure a bunch of hackers did that, so I figured they'd forward his SSN number to us.
I'm sure he'd love to be made an example of yet again.
Who better?
So basically, if you had, hypothetically, Geraldo Rivera's social security number,
and somebody called you and said, hey, I want that on a T-shirt, you'd make it for him?
Okay.
Right now I'm not an incorporated business, okay?
My hope was that somebody somewhere would inform me of the specific law that's doing this, okay,
and say, if you don't stop, we're going to charge you with such and such.
At that point, I would turn right away, you know, and of course you know the next step, okay?
A lot of times they don't give you warnings, though.
They won't say, well, stop this or we'll charge you.
They'll just charge you.
Yeah.
Well, if they do, please tell us what law it is, because I'm sure a lot of other people will want to do what you're doing.
But then it's too late.
I think your goals are very valid, and I think probably the best way to get these anti-people laws changed
is to piss off some government hacks or politicians by having their social security numbers traded around like baseball cards.
When they realize how dangerous this is, they may change the laws to make it safer for us all.
Just wake people up in one way, and I think you're definitely doing that.
Let's take some phone calls, 212-279-3400.
Let's take one call and see if people out there want to talk about this subject.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Hello?
Yes, go ahead.
You're on the air.
Hi, this is Razor.
I had a question for Clint, was it?
Yeah.
Okay.
Let me turn down my radio for a second.
Yes, you'll get very confused.
Here's my question.
I was wondering, do social security numbers, when you're applying for a credit card or something like that,
do they carry certain information that you wouldn't have provided,
such as, let's say you're applying for a credit card you never applied before,
does your social security number carry your age?
No.
To my knowledge, okay.
I don't know that much about the numbers.
To my knowledge, know what it is and other pieces of info that they match.
Joe, can you say social security numbers, if I read a paper on this recently,
the number corresponds to actually where you were born or where it was applied for?
That's true.
The first three digits do correspond to where you were born, but very generally.
It's not the town.
However, everybody has issued social security numbers now at birth.
Right.
Unlike before, where you applied for one, now you get it when you're born,
so I think that information is written down someplace.
The way it really works is the numbers are broken down.
The first three digits of your social security number indicates what state you applied for your social security number in.
If that happens to be the state where you're born, then that's obviously, that number indicates where you were born.
Yeah, but see, really the key matter I'm getting at is not the information that the IRS may have for you,
but when I go to a credit reporting agency, TRW, when I apply for my first credit card,
am I building my report that they've never heard of me before,
or do they actually have information I haven't provided them with?
I think you spend a lot of time building it yourself.
I mean, I think that's where they get the vast majority of the information is from you.
So if I were to tell them just, this is my social security number, and my name is Joe Bloggs,
and my address is 992, you know, Clotter Lane, that would all work?
Well...
If I just started from the beginning like that and consistently kept it?
They're going to check that social security number, though.
They're going to make sure that matches the name that you have.
How can they do that?
There's a database. There's a social security number lookup that I'm sure they have access to.
But, see, this is really the core of what I'm getting at.
Is there some sort of central authority, or do you build it yourself?
I believe you build...
Wait, I don't know the truth.
Well, your credit rating, you build yourself.
But the actual database, as far as the number, that's something else.
See, I don't know about that, because that's what I was hoping, Clint,
maybe you could illuminate something for me. I don't know.
I don't believe the Social Security Administration shares its database of names and social security numbers with credit agencies.
However, they all have their own databases, which are pretty complete.
I mean, they don't have everybody in there.
But anyone who's ever purchased anything using their social security number,
applied for a bank account or something like that,
will probably already have a credit record, and things are built on your transaction.
So, if you don't have a record to start with, and you give them a social security number,
if it belonged to somebody else, they'll say, hey, what's up?
A friend of mine applied for a telephone number with a telephone company here in Philadelphia,
about five years ago, and he made up a social security number and a name.
And the phone company called him back and said they couldn't give him a phone number,
because it showed that he was dead.
And evidently, the phone company had some database or access to something showing that social security numbers
went along with certain names.
Either that or someone else had given them the same number before,
and then their own records had existed.
That could be.
All right.
Thanks for the call.
All right.
Thanks a lot, guys.
Okay.
Have a good one.
Blake, you're here, and you have a question.
Yeah.
The first three, I'm interested in the breakdown of the social security number.
The first three do seem to indicate a place where either the application was made or where the person was born.
And I know that there are special numbers reserved for Americans born in other countries as well.
But I would think that we're running out of numbers at this point.
In fact, they can't be consistent.
I do know a lot of people in New York who are born here or applied for their number here,
their social security number starts with 104.
And that is actually a way to identify someone.
And it was kind of interesting earlier when you spoke of that list of grades next to
and social security numbers posted at a university.
You could cross-reference that with where the students came from
and then actually identify who those particular students were.
And that's just one possible way of cross-referencing databases
and finding out who identities are behind blank social security numbers.
And there are people who live for this kind of thing as far as cross-referencing
and finding little patterns and things like that.
But, you know, I think one thing, and I don't believe this is illegal in any sense,
experiment, you know, try this.
Say, you know, give a different number to an agency to see what they do, to see if they catch it.
As long as you're not using it to commit fraud, it is not illegal.
That is my understanding of the law.
That's how it's been explained to me numerous times.
Well, it's intent to defraud.
Right, intent.
And it's a very murky thing, intent.
It's a state of mind.
And the government has its ways of convincing people that there was intent or wasn't intent.
It's a gray area.
Okay, let's take another phone call.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Go ahead.
You know, one of the things they do, I used to work for beneficial finance,
and I used to work for the collection agencies, collecting money on the phone.
And your credit card number or any loan you take out has your Social Security number,
as well as now all the medical records in a lot of hospitals have your Social Security number.
And when I was working for an insurance company,
they did have your policy number with your Social Security number on there, too.
So there's a central database, not only for medical records,
but also for financial records, like if you apply for a phone and start building a credit base.
That is something to think about.
My Blue Cross Blue Shield card, the account number is my Social Security number.
Okay.
Somehow we have lost Clint.
I don't know quite how that happened.
So I guess, Bernie, if you could talk for a little bit about maybe updating people on your case.
I'll try to get him back on the line so we can give out his information.
Well, I feel like I'm really beating a dead horse on this thing I've explained it so many times to so many people.
But basically I go for, I'm going before a county judge this Friday to be resentenced for violating probation,
this federal charge that I was convicted of in 1995, possessing a hardware or software for the modification of telecommunications instruments,
is a violation of a probation I was on for a county misdemeanor from a couple of years ago,
which involved the removal of batteries from a radio shack touchtone dialer, which was a tampering with evidence charge.
So this federal charge is a violation of that probation,
and I'm going to be resentenced before a county judge in Northampton, Pennsylvania,
or Easton, Pennsylvania, rather, in Northampton County.
And the sentencing guidelines are anywhere from zero months to 24 months.
So I could go back to prison for up to two years for this whole thing.
So I don't look forward to it, but I'd like to get this thing over with rather than have it hanging over my head.
So we'll see what's going to happen on Friday, unless we get a big snowstorm and then it's postponed again.
Okay, we have Clint back on the line. Clint, are you there?
Yeah, thanks so much for calling me back.
Oh, no problem. We need you to give out your information so people can contact you.
Okay.
By the way, let me just first ask you, have you gotten any numbers for elected officials yet?
Yeah, let's see. I've got the president, I've got one or two governors, I've got a couple millionaires, I've got a rock and roll star.
You've got the president.
Tell you what, I'm kind of chicken to call it out over the air because of what I've heard about the way he's been using the Secret Service lately.
I don't know if that's verified or not.
I'll tell you what, why don't you do this, why don't you email me the president's social security number.
Okay.
I'm announcing on a 50,000 watt radio station that I'm going to have this number and in three weeks when we're on the air again, I'm going to give it out.
Okay.
Because, you know, why not?
Okay.
Now, if I get contacted between now and then, I will tell people what I was told and I will certainly follow whatever laws I am told to follow.
Well, but as of now, I mean, is it illegal to give out a number?
I don't think it is, from what I hear, but we'll find out.
That's one way to find out.
So email it to me.
Okay, that would be great.
And, you know, that way you're not putting yourself on the line.
Okay.
And, uh...
So how do people get a hold of you?
Okay, they can drop me mail at box 750037.
The city is Petaluma.
Excuse me.
Oh, great.
Dropped your city?
Thank you for...
Okay, you there?
Thank you for your patience.
No problem.
Click on the tape recorder there.
Okay.
Once again, box 750037.
The name of the city is Petaluma, P-E-T-A-L-U-M-A.
The state is California, C-A, and the zip code is 94975-0037.
Okay, now is there an email address you want to give out?
Yes.
It's Danbury, D-A-N-B-U-R-Y, at sign, S-S-N-Shirt.com.
And there's no periods except for the dot com.
Okay.
Danbury at S-S-N-Shirt.com.
Well, Clint, we want to thank you very much for being on the show and for helping to wake
people up.
And, Bernie S., best of luck this weekend, or this week, actually, Friday, with your hearing.
We'll update people on that.
How do we get a shirt?
And back to your bikes, too, because I'm going to write to the Social Security Administration
and ask them point blank if what I'm doing is illegal.
Okay.
And I'm going to start a bad mail.
Let us know what the answer is.
And I guess, Bernie, I'll ask you a question.
You can get a shirt by writing to him.
Right now, no, I'm not incorporated, and I just don't have enough for the, to really
make it worthwhile.
Okay.
Well, we'll update people.
We're out of time now, so we've got to hit the road.
But we'll be back again, not next week, not the week after, in two weeks with a special
expanded edition of Off the Hook.
I believe we're starting at 7.30 p.m.
And we'll have at least two of the three authors of Kevin Mitnick books on, so it's going
to be a very interesting and fiery debate right there.
So we'll see you in three weeks for another edition of Off the Hook.
Good night.
We'll see you in three weeks.
Paint peeling off the wall, dirt piling in the hall, ice on the pipes, but no steam
at all.
Landlord, landlord, low down, rotten, good for nothing.
Landlord, landlord, low down, rotten, good for nothing.
He's against public housing.
Can't stand the fuss we're rousing.
We'll take care of him later with a rat exterminator.
Pay him a boner, pay him a bonus, give him grease, for the right to sign a lease.
You can have dogs, but kids must see.
Landlord, landlord, recollecting, disinfecting, labor, beta, negro, hater, anti-Semite, human termite.
Landlord, landlord.
Landlord, landlord.
Plaster fell on grandma's head.
This is what the landlord said.
Why you kicking?
She ain't a landlord.
Thank you.