212-279-3400.
Give us a call and pledge to WBAI Radio.
Folks, we're still at $2,800.
You've got to take us over $3,000.
Come on, there must be someone out there who says yes to WBAI,
who says, I'll help you meet your goal.
We've got to get out of here.
We're three minutes over.
Please be the one to take us over the top $200 pledge, folks.
$200 pledge.
Maybe there's a woman out there who appreciates our coverage of the income gap,
of the disparity between wealth and poverty in this country.
212-279-3400.
Now, I know overall women don't have half the wealth of men,
but maybe you can pledge whatever you can.
212-279-3400.
Or pledge in honor of a woman you respect.
Give us a call.
Pledge to WBAI Radio.
We're here for you.
We are yours.
We are WBAI Community Radio.
We're going to get out of here right now.
Thank you very much to the four people calling in,
and to Dred Scott Keyes, our engineer,
and to Dave Clark, and to Andrea Silva,
and to everyone who's helped with the news.
212-279-3400 is our number.
We're at $3,200 moving our way up.
Thank you very much to that person calling in.
I hope another and another and another person will join.
212-279-3400 is our number.
It's our lifeline, and you can reach out to us and say,
I support you.
I'm going to keep this place going just by giving us a call.
It's that simple.
Your call now is a vote of support for the news.
It's a vote for the news.
It's 212-279-3400.
Tune in tomorrow.
We'll be playing a speech of Dr. Michio Kaku in the morning on health, on science.
We'll also be playing the speeches of Joe Willard and others, Charlie Rangel as well.
That's tomorrow morning.
212-279-3400.
But please give us a call.
Keep the phone calls coming in.
Even as we move out of the studio, we need you folks, and we're not ashamed to say it,
as I always say, because we are codependent.
We're dependent on you, and that's how it should be,
so that we don't turn to the military contractors.
We don't turn to the drug companies.
We don't turn to any corporation.
We turn to you and say, if you believe in corporate-free radio, we ask you to give us a call now.
That's 212-279-3400.
For Jose Santiago and Paul DiRienzo, I'm Amy Goodman.
Have a very good evening.
Do something good for someone, and call WBAI.
212-279-3400.
That's a very good start.
And ask for the Black Athena Package.
It's the Afrocentricity Package that includes a taped debate on Afrocentricity.
Martin Bernal's two books on Black Athena.
Shekanta Jop's book, Civilization or Barbarism, an Authentic Anthropology.
And a very important speech by Maleficet Asante on Afrocentricity.
Give us a call, folks.
It makes the difference to us.
It keeps us on the air.
You keep us alive.
212-279-3400.
212-279-3400.
Give us a call, folks.
Pledge to WBAI Radio.
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He means thousands and thousands.
Of Cuban teachers and professors have trained technicians.
Also, our technicians in many fields have gone to other countries to work.
Cuba was left with only 3,000 doctors out of the 6,000 it had in 1959.
3,000 left.
They were incited by best salaries here in the United States.
However, nowadays, we have 60,000.
And if one day the Americans were to need doctors, our doctors would come to work here.
Cuban president, Fidel Castro, Wednesday, January 31st at 7.30 p.m.
Here on listener-sponsored, non-commercial radio, WBAI, 99.5 FM.
Sunday, February 4th at 5 a.m.
Cosmic Debris presents a radio play adaptation of Ralph Ellison's short story,
Cadillac Flambe, Cadillac Flambe, that Sunday, February 4th at 5 a.m.
of Cuban teachers and professors have trained technicians.
Desegregation, assimilation, separatism, nationalism.
What is the legacy of integration?
There is a great amount of integrity in what black people have created with the so-called
crumbs of the white man's table, in much the same way that we created soul food, which
we took the crumbs and made it a delicacy for many people.
But ultimately, soul food is injurious to your arteries.
And we have to figure out a new diet.
The diet that we crafted in the context of white supremacy was a diet that helped us get
over the hump, as it were.
Well, of course, we're never going to become identical.
We are different, not only by skin color, but within skin color, within gender, within
any number of other categories.
I think we've got to get on with the commonalities while at the same time recognizing that we
also have the right to be different in many respects.
But is that possible?
Is that achievable?
Well, we'll find out.
Let's find out.
Celine?
That's our only hope.
I agree.
It's our only hope.
Well, we have no choice but to figure out how to do it together.
Listen to The Legacy of Integration, coming to this station from Pacifica Radio.
You were talking about condoms earlier, right?
Well, we had been talking about that.
We mentioned it briefly, but we've spent two programs on the use of condoms.
Well, I just wanted to ask one question.
Uh-huh.
Claysell has a thing he's obsessed with called the grip, you know, a vaginal exercise, you
know, that...
Right.
Women do?
Right.
I thought you were talking about a cold.
I'm sorry.
Go ahead.
And it usually comes during orgasm, you know, and I was wondering what effect that has on
whether the condom stays on or not.
Hmm.
Um, well, personally, I have not experienced the grip while...
Wait, wait, let me finish.
I don't know.
I didn't...
I didn't...
Let me get it out.
I haven't experienced...
I haven't experienced the grip, uh, while wearing a condom.
Um, not wearing a condom some time ago, I experienced the grip, so I really can't speak on that.
I can speak on the pleasures of the grip, but not, uh, you know, can't speak to actually
what, what you're asking.
Half Past Three hosts, Michael G. Haskins, Tony Short, The Pleasures of the Grip, and you.
Alternating Tuesdays at 3.30 a.m. on listener-sponsored WBAI-FM.
99.5 FM, WBAI, New York.
100.5 FM, WBAI-FM.
And if one day the Americans were to need doctors, our doctors would come to work here.
Cuban President Fidel Castro, Wednesday, January 31st, at 7.30 p.m., here on listener-sponsored
non-commercial radio WBAI-99.5 FM.
Desegregation, assimilation, separatism, nationalism.
What is the legacy of integration?
There is a great amount of integrity in what black people have created with the so-called
crumbs of the white man's table, in much the same way that we created soul food, which
we took the crumbs and made it a delicacy for many people.
But ultimately, soul food is injurious to your arteries.
And we have to figure out a new diet.
The diet that we crafted in the context of white supremacy was a diet that helped us get
over the hump.
Well, of course, we're never going to become identical.
We are different, not only by skin color, but within skin color, within gender, within
any number of other categories.
I think we've got to get on with the commonalities, while at the same time recognizing that we
also have the right to be different in many respects.
But is that possible?
Is that achievable?
Well, we'll find out.
Let's find out.
Salim?
That's our only hope.
I agree, it's our only hope.
We have no choice but to figure out how to do it together.
Listen to the legacy of integration, coming to this station from Pacifica Radio.
And this is radio station WBAI 99.5 FM in New York.
It's time for an extended edition, a very special edition of Off the Hook.
You don't want to miss this one.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself off shaving, now I can't make a cough.
It could be yet much worse.
But if it could, they would.
Bum-diddly-bom for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
Bum-diddly-bom!
We'll see you next time.
Bum-diddly-bom.
Bum-diddly-bom.
Thank you.
And a very good evening to one and all. The program is off the hook. This is Emanuel Goldstein here with you on this Tuesday evening, a special extended version of the program this night as we reach out and ask you for some help keeping the station going and also bring you some very important news as things are developing.
We have a couple of ongoing situations. We have some updates to to give to people right away. And of course, we have some special offers as well.
So I guess the best thing to do right now is to is to immediately get rid of some of the things that we have for you.
And one of the things that we have right now is, you know, I don't know where that phone line is coming from.
I don't know which of these controls is controlling the phone line, but it's there.
That means people are calling in, which is good. That's good.
But let's wait until, you know, you hear what I have to say first.
OK, we have a special deal for people calling in to to to get onto the Internet right away for a pledge of one hundred dollars.
You can get a pledge, an account rather on the Internet, on escape dot com.
And that is that is a donation that was given to us from escape dot com.
What we're going to do now is put you on with the person in charge of that right now.
Joker is here. He's going to tell you all about escape dot com.
And we're going to we're going to hopefully have those five offers of six months on the Internet snatched up for pledges of one hundred dollars.
And that's I'm told that that is credit card because we were so limited on that credit cards only will be accepted on this one.
So two on two, two, seven, nine, three, four hundred.
Joker, why would anybody want to get on the Internet at this late stage in the game?
Why not? I mean, at this point, at this point, I mean,
I think everybody should be on, but that's just my opinion.
So basically what we're offering is a full slip PPP connection, which is unlimited, untimed access.
And you're going to first of all, you're getting it for free, one hundred dollars, which is a pledge to BAI.
And they could definitely use the money and it helps out a lot around here.
But if you were to compare that with AOL or CompuServe or any of the other providers out there,
you'd find that for 50 hours on AOL, you're going to pay about one hundred and fifty dollars.
Anything more than that, I have no idea what the figures are.
They've got to be astronomical because they're taking everybody's money.
And it's a lot slower, which means you're going to spend a lot more time downloading stuff off the net,
which means you're going to spend a lot more money.
So for us, you know, you're donating here and you're getting a slip PPP connection,
which is unlimited, untimed access.
You can access it anytime you want for as long as you want.
The lines are all 28.8, supporting the fastest speed of modems.
We're connected to a T1 directly to the Internet, which means, again, faster speed.
And included in that, you also get space to put up your own web page, if you so desire.
So I think it's a pretty good deal, and the money's going to a really good cause.
Well, you know, I see the phone lines lighting up.
I see something like four lines lit up.
I'm not sure if those are people that are taking advantage of that offer.
Hopefully so.
If not, you know, you better hurry up because I think those will go pretty fast.
212-279-3400 is the phone number.
Tell us something.
How long has Escape been around for?
What kind of growth have you guys seen?
A lot.
It's about to get a lot bigger.
We've done absolutely no advertising in the last three years,
and we have a huge customer base, mostly by word of mouth
because people seem to be pretty satisfied with what's going on.
We're doing the Home Office Expo this weekend,
so that should bring in a lot more people.
And what is the Home Office Expo?
Meckler Media is doing a Home Office Internet Expo at the Javits Center this weekend,
Friday through Sunday.
We'll be there along with a lot of other people,
so come by and check it out.
Okay, I hear phones coming in.
Phone lines are ringing in the BAI studios.
212-279-3400.
And by becoming a part of this at this stage in the game,
you are joining the rest of us.
And, you know, some people out there may already have Internet accounts.
They may be asking themselves,
well, why should I even listen to this at this point?
Joker, what is the advantage?
Well, I mean, besides the...
I guess the fact that your name is Joker should not be taken in a bad way
as you're the representative for Escape.
I mean, no joking around.
Here, we're very serious as far as what we are talking about here.
Why does somebody want to have two Internet accounts?
Well, I mean, access between the two, transfers between the two.
I mean, you can store files on one or the other and use different things.
You can use them at the same time.
I mean, most of the people that we get are either brand new people,
you know, people switching over from another service as well.
We get a lot of converts from AOL, CompuServe, and the like,
because they're just unhappy, and frankly, I don't blame them.
You know, slow, hard to access, censoring users as well.
I mean, I'm not making the assumption that everybody out there is trying to download child porn,
but basically, if it's out there on the net, you can get it through Escape.
I see. Okay.
Now, as far as censorship, now, there's no censorship on Escape.
None. None whatsoever.
How about these other Internet deals?
Oh, sure.
AOL will kick you off and cut your account if you use, you know, a four-letter word in a chat room.
Uh-huh.
I mean, it's just, you know, you're trying to limit freedom of expression,
which, you know, we basically don't believe in.
Uh-huh.
Basically, we're a no-nonsense access to the Internet.
You know, we were reviewed in Paper Magazine.
You can check out the last issue.
We actually got a really good review, and one of the things they said was,
no bells and whistles.
Now, that doesn't mean that it's hard to access.
Basically, it means, you know, you're not paying for all the extra crap
that you get on a lot of other places that you don't even use or it's totally useless.
We're providing you a direct connection to the net.
Okay.
Bear with me one moment while I check something out here.
Hello?
You have a Tell Link collect call from a county jail.
The call is from Bernie S.
To accept this collect call with a push-button phone, please press 2 now.
Thank you for using Tell Link.
Okay.
Well, this brings us to another part of the program,
something that I was trying to lead into earlier, actually.
So we're going to stop with the pitching right now because this is far more important.
Bernie S., obviously, since we talked to you last, which was three weeks ago,
you've had your hearing, and since you're calling us collect from a county jail,
that means that something really bad has happened.
Do you want to fill in the folks?
Well, the thing that happened that was really bad was that the Secret Service showed up at my hearing
and made all kinds of allegations about how dangerous I must be without any kind of, I could say,
a factual basis to say that.
In any case, the judge believed him.
My attorney was not able to show up, unfortunately, because we'd had a blizzard and he was snowed in.
So the judge, in his wisdom, set my bail at a quarter of a million dollars
for what this district attorney up here referred to as a victimless misdemeanor.
And I was relegated to the most dangerous wing of the Northampton County Prison Reserve
for murderers and bank robbers and so forth, or for those with really high bail, such as mine.
So I've been here for three weeks.
I had another hearing Friday, which you attended,
and you got to hear for yourself what the Secret Service had to say.
And I'm sure you made your own conclusions.
Well, I certainly did.
The conclusions I made are that this whole situation is so bizarre, so out of control.
And I'm in shock, really, because when I went to that hearing,
I expected to see some exaggeration of the truth.
I did not expect to see such 100% swallowing of fabrication.
I mean, the question was, do you pose a threat to the community in any way?
And person after person, whether or not they said that you did or you didn't,
clearly proved that you did not, because nobody could come up with any kind of conclusive evidence
that you ever posed a threat to anybody.
And yet, despite all of that, despite all that evidence that there was no explosives found in your house,
there were no guns found in your house, you never made a threat against anybody,
the only thing that they thought you were a threat because of were the books that you had.
The books, the reading material, things like that.
And to see a judge in a court in this country actually swallow that, actually buy that,
I mean, that to me was very, very depressing.
Not as depressing as, of course, you being in prison,
but I just can't believe this kind of thing can happen.
Well, I've learned to accept it as part of our society at this point,
because this nonsense is going on for almost a year now with my case,
and it doesn't seem to end.
So it's not too surprising to me.
Uh-huh.
So now tell us something about the conditions they put you in now.
Well, as I mentioned earlier, I am in what's called D tier of this county prison,
and it's reserved for the most dangerous or violent inmates or for those with the highest bail,
and often at times that goes hand in hand.
In my case, it doesn't go hand in hand,
and although my bail was set at a quarter of a million dollars initially,
I never as much as threatened anyone in my life with any kind of violence at all.
I'm a pacifist.
I may read some odd things, but that doesn't mean I'm violent.
In any case, I'm in a five-by-eight cell, which is one of 24 on this D tier,
and I'm let out of the cell twice a day to sort of roam around the tier,
which is just a 120-foot-long hallway that's about six feet wide,
where I can mingle with my fellow inmates.
And then I'm also allowed out occasionally to make a phone call.
Actually, it's in the same wing, so it's not really out,
and to get out to the dining hall three times a day for what they refer to here as food.
Although I've had much better in my life, I should say.
My cell also is, while it's a single cell,
there's a lot of other occupants of my cell, namely cockroaches.
There's quite an infestation of cockroaches in this place.
In fact, last night I managed to swat three of them crawling on me as I was trying to sleep.
So it makes it a little difficult to have peace of mind here
when you've got cockroaches crawling over you and murderers are wandering around.
I'm really not afraid of the other inmates here.
They seem to have accepted me as someone who they don't seem to bother with.
But it's an odd place to be, I'll tell you.
Now, just to recap for people who think that we're talking to a hardened criminal here,
basically what happened was, to make this very brief and very understandable to people out there,
a few years ago you went to a ham fest, you parked your car illegally,
the cops came, they actually broke into your car because they thought it was abandoned,
and they found a tone dialer along with instructions on how to build a red box.
They asked you about it.
You were not under custody at any time.
You were not told you were under custody.
You answered the questions.
And at some point, the instructions for how to make a red box disappeared,
and the cops accused you of tampering with evidence.
It was never proven that you took anything.
You were with two other people.
But because of that, you were sentenced to two years probation
and fined something like $3,000.
Am I right so far?
About right.
I was fined about $2,820,
and I pled no contest or in legal jargon, no lo contendere.
Okay, so that's the first phase of all this.
Then last year, you were discovered in a parking lot
with a van filled with African Americans,
and of course that raised eyebrows in the community you were in,
and basically people accused you of, first of all, partaking in a drug deal,
and they found out that was not happening.
They searched through your car without your permission,
found crystals and electronic gear,
seized that from you because they thought that was suspicious,
and a couple of days later, after conferring with the Secret Service,
they raided the home you were in and...
Arrested me at gunpoint.
Arrested you at gunpoint.
This was all at the behest of the Secret Service,
and they were somehow able to keep you in federal prison for seven months.
I was initially charged on state charges.
The Secret Service admitted to have drafted the original arrest warrant and search warrant.
The original arrest warrant that the Secret Service drafted, which was state charges,
was for theft of telecommunications services,
and that charge stemmed from the Secret Service's taking one of these tone dialers
and actually using it in such a manner as to be able to make a fraudulent call on a pay telephone.
I was, in turn, charged with having done just that without any evidence that I had ever used one of these things,
and that charge subsequently the following morning was dropped by a local judge
who realized that there wasn't a shred of evidence that I'd ever used one of these things,
just that I had possession of a piece of equipment that you could buy at any Radio Shack store.
So that charge was dropped, and I was left with another charge of possession of equipment
that could be used for federal telecommunications services.
And after about seven weeks of waiting, that charge was dropped,
and the Secret Service decided to adopt the case,
and I was charged with a brand-new federal statute,
Title 18, Section 1029A5 and A6B,
the possession of hardware or software for the modification of telecommunications instruments
for the unauthorized access to telecommunications services,
which is a felony now under federal law,
punishable by a statutory maximum of up to 15 years incarceration.
Again, I was not charged or alleged to have defrauded anyone
or made any fraudulent phone calls or anything of that nature,
just possessing a commonly available hardware or software
that could be used in that manner.
Now, this seems bizarre enough,
that they were actually able to imprison you for something so ridiculous.
The Secret Service seemed to take this real interest
in making sure that you were behind bars.
We'll get into that in a couple of minutes.
But then, after you were released from prison, finally, in October,
you immediately were able to get a full-time job.
You were trying to put your life back together.
You were following all the terms and conditions that were imposed upon you.
But this event that took place a couple of years earlier
came back to haunt you because, as you recall,
we said that you were put on probation.
And being arrested violated that probation.
So you had to go back for a hearing to see if, in fact,
you had violated the probation.
Now, that, in turn, is bad enough.
But what the Secret Service did was make absolutely sure
that you were put behind bars once again
by contacting your probation officer,
saying that you were a menace to society.
Now, your probation officer was...
You had told me initially he thought the whole case was pretty silly,
the first case that you had been arrested for,
and that he didn't even want to see you every two weeks.
He passed you on to somebody else.
He had a quite different tone about him on Friday at the hearing.
He seemed to think that you were one of the biggest threats
to Western civilization.
And I think the reason for that is because
he has been contacted repeatedly by the Secret Service.
In fact, you didn't see this, but outside in the hallway,
he was practically swooning over the Secret Service guy.
He was in awe.
This was his hero.
This was somebody that he wanted to be just like.
This guy is like, you know, 13 years old or something.
He's a young guy.
But I think when the Secret Service plows into town,
everybody just kind of turns a blind eye to justice
and listens to whatever it is they have to say.
And in this case, they were saying,
lock you up.
You know, lock Ed Cummings up.
Throw away the key.
Now, why are they saying this?
Well, apparently they believe that I,
well, honestly, according to the federal prosecutor in my case,
I ended up serving a seven-month prison sentence.
Actually, the federal guidelines for the new federal charge
that I was convicted of
had a zero- to six-month sentencing guideline.
But since I was held without bail
during the entire duration since my arrest
for seven months versus six months,
my sentencing was delayed another month
after my guilty plea.
And I ended up waiting another month.
So after seven months, they finally let me go
after having served a month more
than the federal guidelines even recommended.
So I was out for three months.
And two weeks after I was released,
I got a full-time job in my field
and was working even overtime to pay off my federal fines
and doing volunteer work and staying out of trouble.
But after three months of delays
for this probation violation hearing,
finally it was rescheduled.
And I made it there.
My attorney had called in advance,
let the court know he could not be there
because of a blizzard.
I managed to get there.
In any case, there was some misunderstanding
or deliberate misleading of my attorney
by the local probation officer
who advised him that he didn't believe
the hearing was going to take place
based on the blizzard.
But apparently everyone was there waiting for me.
And I was put away.
So I don't know.
What was the...
You would ask me another question.
What was that?
Well, the question was...
The main question was
why is the Secret Service so intent on locking you up?
Amongst the things that were found in my home,
I'm a federally licensed ham radio operator
and I've always been interested in radio as a hobby
for many years.
And I have an almost insatiable curiosity
about all kinds of things.
Computers, electronics, radio, communications,
telephone systems, law enforcement, science,
the natural world, all that kind of stuff.
Amongst the things that were found in my home
were radio scanners, which I use in my radio hobby,
frequency books such as a book called Scanner Master,
which is available from a company in Massachusetts.
It's a popular guide to radio frequencies.
It lists everything from your local sewer authority,
frequency to local police, ambulance,
FBI Secret Service.
It's publicly available information.
I've been a subscriber to Monitoring Times magazine
for, oh, probably 15 years.
And that had an article in 1983
on Ronald Reagan's Secret Service protection staff.
And in that magazine article,
it was detailed the code names
that the Secret Service used to identify Reagan
and his wife and his cabinet and so forth.
It's very outdated information.
But what the Secret Service claimed
was that I had code names in my hearing recently.
The Secret Service alleged that I had code names
used by the Secret Service for protecting the president.
that I had...
But that was two presidents ago.
Oh, yeah, it was in 1983.
And it was...
It was from a magazine article.
For God's sake, what's wrong with these people?
Well, they chose not to mention that critical fact.
So that sounded evil.
You know what else they mentioned?
Something, actually, Joker here wants to ask you about.
Yeah, Bernie, I was talking to Fiber today,
and he mentioned something about the C-4.
Oh, yeah.
That you lived with somebody...
You want to talk about that?
That it could have been C-4.
Yeah, one of the things that...
I have a large book collection at my home
and probably about 1,000 books.
I probably have five or six books on subjects
that might scare people,
like how explosives are made,
because I've been curious about all kinds of things.
I've never made any explosives,
but I'd like to read about all kinds of things.
So in any case,
the Secret Service found those books and got very upset.
They called the Bureau of Alcohol and Spackle of Firearms,
the ATF,
and they also went through the house.
And in the basement of my house,
they found some kind of chemical.
I'm not sure what it was.
Okay.
They got caught off in 30 seconds.
That's our 30-second warning.
Are you going to be able to call us back?
I will try.
I'll keep talking,
and if we get cut off,
I'll call right back.
At the hearing,
the Secret Service claimed
that a material was found in my home
that was believed to be C-4,
which, upon later analysis,
turned out not to be C-4.
Because it might have been,
I should be of great concern
to the community.
So that was the claim that was made.
They never said what this stuff was
that they found,
but apparently it was not harmful,
or I'm sure I would have been charged with it.
Okay.
He's been cut off.
Hopefully he'll be able to call us back.
This is the most incredible case.
I mean,
it might have been silly,
but was it or was it not?
At the hearing,
Tom Varney is a Secret Service agent
that has been spearheading this thing.
And I'll tell you, man,
it's like looking into the face of darkness
when you look at this guy.
He just does not see
what he is doing to people.
He just wants to lock us all up
because we think dangerous thoughts,
we read dangerous books.
This guy feels compelled
every hearing to say
that they thought they found C-4
in the guy's house.
And they say,
well, it turned out not to be.
So why say it at all?
Reason being,
C-4 sticks in your mind.
And the judge heard C-4,
this guy must be dangerous.
Yeah, it wasn't C-4,
but it could have been.
Turned out to be dental.
The things you make,
you know,
to make dentures, right.
Yeah, that's what we said.
Because there was a dentist in the house.
Yeah, his housemate is a dentist
or was at one point.
And they don't mention this.
This might be him.
Hello?
Yes, Mr. Jackson.
No, I'm sorry.
He got the wrong number there.
I don't know where that person came from.
No, but I mean,
it's, yeah,
I mean,
why mention it if it wasn't that?
It could have been dynamite,
but it was a candle.
I mean, what's the point?
If they don't know what it is
and it's not that,
you know,
you can't even bring it up.
Right.
I mean,
the same thing is like talking
and technospeak
to a jury that has no idea
what you're talking about
and then not giving the person
the chance to say what it is.
Right.
I mean,
at this hearing,
it was not as bad
as the last hearing,
which I was not at
and which a lot of the press people
were not at.
Ed was allowed to talk.
Hang on,
this might be him again.
Good evening.
Yeah.
No,
there's no Mr. Jackson here.
You've got the wrong number.
Please don't call this number anymore.
I don't know why someone
all of a sudden
decides that our secret line
is Mr. Jackson's line.
Why is he,
I mean,
I'm not familiar with the laws
and why is he not allowed to speak?
You see,
the first hearing,
he wasn't allowed to speak
because his lawyer wasn't present
and only his lawyer could speak.
And because of that,
he basically was silenced
every time he tried
to defend himself.
Now,
this time the press was there,
a lot more people
were in the courtroom,
the judge had a totally
different demeanor about him,
but it still wound up
the same way in the end.
Yeah,
he was kind.
He lowered his bail
from $250,000
to $100,000.
That's a real
sporting gesture here.
Okay,
hopefully this is him.
Good evening.
Hello.
Okay.
You have a telling
collect call
from a county jail.
The call is from
Bernie S.
To accept this collect call
with a push-button phone,
please press 2 now.
To reject this collect call,
press 8 now.
Now,
we're going to accept
this by voice.
To accept this collect call,
press 2 now.
If you still wish
to accept this collect call
after the tone,
please say yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Thank you for using
tell link.
Stupid.
It actually worked this time.
What's wrong with this guy?
He hangs up on me
when someone says yes.
Yeah,
you know,
it's happened a few times.
You've called collect a few times.
I've said yes,
and the guy has said
your call has been rejected.
Thank you very much.
You've said it very distinctly.
I thought I did.
It gets clearly
and is loud and clear
with the best phonemes
I've ever heard,
but it doesn't catch
most of the time.
Let me just say,
and I apologize
for having to do this,
Bernie,
but we are in the middle
of our fundraiser.
Oh.
We do want to encourage
people to call in
and pledge to the radio station
so that episodes like this,
which hopefully won't occur
in the future,
but when they do,
we'll be able to devote time
to them and tell people
what's going on
so that we'll be able
to continue to do that.
No other radio station
is covering this,
obviously.
It's a shame they're not
because this is something
that eventually will affect
every last one of us.
The Secret Service
is targeting people
based on the books
they read.
212-279-3400.
Take advantage
of the escape.com offer
internet service
for six months
for credit card pledges
of $100.
Now, of course,
we'll take any kind of pledge
for whatever amount
you can afford
at 212-279-3400,
but we really need
to get some of those
calls coming in.
According to our tally,
nobody has called,
and I find it kind of
hard to believe.
I thought we had
a full switchboard before.
212-279-3400.
Being on the internet,
by the way,
is the kind of thing
that really makes a difference.
That shows you
how freedom of speech
is valued,
how it's so important.
I mean, Joker,
is that not true?
The First Amendment
reigns supreme
on the internet.
Yeah, but, you know,
when it all comes down to it,
I think if the Secret Service
feels like putting you away,
you're going to go away.
So, hopefully,
with more people out there
trying to champion
freedom of speech
and getting their views
out there,
things like this
aren't going to happen,
or at least when people
are attacked in this manner,
you know,
people will sit up
and take notice.
212-279-3400.
Please,
there's one call
on the line.
There really should be,
not to preach to people,
there really should be
seven calls on the line
because this is
an important issue.
By calling,
you're showing your support
for us talking
about things like this.
212-279-3400.
We could just be silent.
We could just play music.
We could just talk
about nothing in particular,
which is what a lot of,
you know,
a lot of people in charge
want us to do.
In fact,
the Secret Service
has called this radio station
and tried to get us
not to air this information.
They have said
they don't want us
talking to Bernie S.
from prison.
This happened
a few months ago.
We can't accept
that kind of control.
We can't accept
the kind of persecution
that people like Bernie
are going through right now.
And by calling us now,
showing your support,
you're basically voting
against that kind of control.
212-279-3400.
Two calls on the line.
Let's add those calls up.
Bernie,
I know you're in
a horrible position
right now in prison,
but tell us why you think
people should call
and support the radio station.
Well, as you said,
Emanuel,
there aren't any other
radio stations
or much in the way
of any kind of media
covering this.
If I were not
personally affected by this,
I'd be outraged anyway
and want to get the word out.
So I'm glad that someone
is talking about this.
I just hope nobody else
has to go through
this same horrible experience
that I went through.
I've never been accused
of hurting anyone in my life
and not even stealing
any phone service
or making any kind of fraud.
All I had was
the common hardware
and software
that you can contain
in lots of places.
So I just hope
that no one else
is subjected to this.
And the more publicity
we get about this case,
I think the less likely
the Secret Service
is going to try it again.
I have another question
for you, actually.
We were discussing this
the other day.
Under the statutes
that you were charged with,
I believe there's something
that stipulates
an access device?
Well, the body of law
that contains
what I was charged with
is Title 18
of the United States
Criminal Code,
Section 1029,
which is entitled
Fraud and Related Activity
Involving Access Devices.
Now, an access device
is defined in that law
as, I'm going to paraphrase here
because I don't remember
the exact definition,
but more or less
it's any card, code, plate,
account number,
or other means
of account access
that you're not supposed
to have,
in other words,
belongs to somebody else.
Yeah, the question...
It was originally drafted
to target credit card fraud,
that sort of thing,
and then later
it was used for calling card codes
and other illicit account numbers,
that sort of thing.
Yeah, the thing is,
I mean, you don't have
to have the plastic
to use a calling card.
What we were wondering is,
does a telephone book
constitute an access device?
Because it gives you
access to numbers
that, in certain situations,
could be used
to access things
you're not supposed to.
I mean, obviously,
we thought it was
a little ludicrous
because then they'd have
to go out, you know,
charging everybody,
but it seems like,
in your case,
the Secret Service
wants you away,
and if, you know,
pretty much they're doing
everything in their power,
so, I mean...
Well, the new amendments
to Section 1029
that were added
in the winter of 94,
specifically Sections 1029A5
and A6B,
are significant
in that those sections
neither involve
committing fraud
nor possessing access devices,
which is what the title
of 1029 is called.
So I was not alleged
to have possessed
any access devices
or any codes
or account numbers
to access anyone else
in service,
but merely hardware
or software
that can be used
in other ways.
So it's a gray area,
but there seem to have
added sections
to this law
that was passed along
with the digital telephony bill
and some other communications law
benefiting law enforcement
that are kind of
off the beaten path,
but there seem to be
using it as sort of
a blanket tool
to prosecute people
that they find undesirable,
and I guess
they consider me
undesirable and dangerous.
Yeah, I mean,
I obviously thought
it was ludicrous,
but it seems like,
I mean,
they're heaping so much on you,
I'm surprised they didn't,
you know,
pardon the bad jokes,
throw the book at you.
In these amendments,
they also mention
telephone numbers
or actually
mobile identification numbers,
which are basically
car phone numbers
or cellular phone numbers
are mentioned
as an access device.
Right,
we were also,
the other thing
we were wondering about
is what about
third-party billing
if you call
the service
that allows you
to charge to a third number.
Technically,
if you made up a number
or used that number
from a phone book,
that would be considered
an access device
for fraudulent purposes,
would it not?
I mean,
to the best of your knowledge
under that statute.
I think we lost him
for whatever reason.
I don't know exactly
why we lost him.
Okay,
well,
that was Bernie S.
Hopefully,
he'll be able to call back
in just a moment or so
and we'll be able
to speak to him then.
I believe
we're also going
to be moving on
and talking about
Kevin Mitnick,
the story that
is in the media
quite a bit
over the past
couple of months,
actually since February
of 1995.
The Kevin Mitnick story
has been in the mass media.
We reported it here
on WBAI
back on,
I think,
February 15th
when Kevin was captured
and since then,
since then,
three separate books
have come out.
Three separate instances
of journalism
of various sorts.
We have on the phone
with us now,
I hope,
John Lippman.
John,
are you there?
I am.
Okay,
great.
It's quite an accomplishment,
actually,
with all the people
running around
and all the phone lines
being transferred everywhere
that we actually
have you there.
Great.
But,
John Lippman,
you wrote a book
called The Fugitive Game,
which is one of the books
that has to do
with Kevin Mitnick.
Now,
there are two others.
Now,
we were supposed to have
all three of you on tonight
and Jeff Goodell
will be joining us
in just a moment,
but John Markoff,
who wrote the first,
actually co-wrote
the first book
with Shitomo Shimomura,
canceled on us
at the very last moment.
He basically,
I'll read you
what he said.
This,
we only got this
about a day or so ago.
I'm going to have to
pass on your radio show,
Bill Gates is in town
in the afternoon
and I'm going to have
to write about that
and to be perfectly honest,
I'd rather spend the time
being yelled at by Gates
than Lippman.
Give everyone my best.
so thanks a lot,
John.
I could have had
John Markoff,
but you scared him off.
Now,
why would that happen?
Well,
the funny thing is
Mr. Shimomura,
of course,
who is his co-author,
has been sort of afraid
of the story
that's come out,
I think largely
because of
not just my book,
but Jeff's book also.
I think both Jeff and I
in our two books
have compiled
some pretty good evidence
that the story
wasn't quite
as black and white
as it first appeared
in the New York Times.
You're still there,
Emmanuel?
Yes,
I am.
So,
give us an example,
though.
What was it
that was exaggerated?
What was it
that was not
necessarily true?
This story
was really created
by John Markoff.
There was,
Mr. Mitnick
was put on the cover
of the New York Times
in July of 94.
At that time,
he was a probation violator,
and there had been
no new charges
at that point.
And he wrote,
Markoff wrote a story.
Mitnick's picture
was on the front page
at that time,
and there were
all sorts of
old myths
that were trotted out
in the New York Times.
John,
I'm sorry,
I just have to interrupt
you for a second.
We might be getting
a call from Bernie S.,
and we do have to take that.
Can you hold on?
Okay, sure.
Hello, is anybody there?
You have a telling
collect call
from a county jail.
Somehow I managed
to disconnect John Lipman.
Bernie S.,
we got cut off.
To accept
this collect call
with a push-button phone,
please press 2 now.
Thank you for using
tell-length.
Hi, Bernie.
We got cut off.
Yes, we did.
It may have been
my fault, in fact.
But I also,
I've been talking
with John Lipman,
who wrote
The Fugitive Game,
and I cut him off
when I answered
your phone call.
So if you could just...
I don't mind holding.
No, don't hold.
What I want you to do
is keep our audience
entertained
while I redial him.
And perhaps you
and Joker
could carry out
a conversation.
Well, hi,
how are you doing?
Hey, Joker.
Good.
How are you doing?
Great.
Wish you were here.
That's a horrible thing
to say.
No, not really.
Oh, man.
I wouldn't wish anyone
to be here, honestly.
Yeah.
I'm just wondering
how they could allow...
I mean, I know
they kept postponing
and postponing
and postponing
your hearing before.
I'm wondering,
even with advance notice
from your lawyer,
how they could allow you
to have a hearing
with your lawyer
not present
and, you know,
without representation
and then not allow
you to speak.
Well...
Or is this
a common practice?
Well, it seems to be.
It seems with a
probation violation
hearing,
the state of Pennsylvania
or Commonwealth
of Pennsylvania,
Commonwealth has...
Commonwealth seem to have
more draconian legal systems
based on the old English law.
Probation and parole
violation hearings
are actually civil law
and as a civil proceeding,
one does not guarantee
the normal constitutional
protections
that one would expect
under a criminal proceeding.
So, not only did my attorney
advise the court
that he was physically
unable to make it
for very good reasons,
they knew about it
in advance.
The judge not only
didn't, you know,
didn't seem to think
it was relevant
that I didn't have
legal counsel,
he did not allow me
to speak on my own behalf
and I had plenty of things
I would have liked to say
in response to these
allegations
the secret server was making.
I was simply not
permitted to speak
and I was remanded to jail
on a quarter of a million dollars bail.
Bottom line,
what's going to happen
if they nail you with this?
Well,
what are you looking at?
In the last hearing,
this Friday,
three days ago,
I was found to be
in violation of my probation,
which the federal conviction
for this brand new statute
is a violation
of this probation
I was on
for this misdemeanor
back in 1993
of being charged
with causing
instruction sheets
to disappear
that were once
in my possession.
I could potentially receive
up to two years
in prison for that.
The state guidelines
are zero to three months
of incarceration
for this particular thing
because the state guidelines
indicate that
this is a misdemeanor 2
with an offense gravity score
of 2.
And according to the law books
that I've looked up here
at the law library
in the prison,
the only other crime
in Pennsylvania
that is as low
as a misdemeanor 2
with an offense gravity score
of 2
is insulting the flag.
Insulting the flag?
Insulting the flag, yes.
Well, nothing makes me
want to tell the flag
to go to hell
more than what's happened
to you over the past
few months.
So I don't know
what that makes me
but that's pretty upsetting.
At my hearing,
my attorney,
I think you were there,
Emmanuel,
when he said this,
he said,
Your Honor,
the maximum state guideline
for this assent
is only three months.
Why keep this man
in prison
until the sentencing hearing?
Right.
The judge said
he didn't have
any intention
of following
the state guidelines
or he didn't feel
like he was bound
by them for some reason.
I hate to interrupt
at this point
but our pledge line
is 212-279-3400.
People,
please call in
with your pledges
so we can continue
this discussion going.
We are joined now
by two authors.
We have John Lippin
back on the line with us.
John, sorry for cutting
you off before.
It's all right.
And Jeff Goodell.
Am I pronouncing that right?
Yeah.
Okay.
You're also out in California
and you also wrote a book
on Kevin Mitnick.
Now, I see quite a few parallels
between what's happening
to Bernie S right now
and what happened
to Kevin Mitnick,
namely the gross exaggeration.
Would either one of you
like to address that?
Sure.
Well, just the other day,
I think it's funny
that Markoff won't be on the show
because it's interesting.
Both he and Shimomura
have recently been turning down
lots of journalists.
I was on All Things Considered today
and Shimomura turned down
an invite to be on that show
and that's a pretty big turndown.
He turned down an interview
from the San Jose Mercury.
It was actually on CNN yesterday,
National News,
and they said quite clearly
that the case had been exaggerated
by John Markoff
in the New York Times
and Mitnick had been demonized
by Markoff and Shimomura.
And also by, I guess,
a lot of people on the net
who were very paranoid
about what Kevin could do
and what he could not do.
And it's very troubling
when you see what's happening
in front of you.
You know the reality of the situation.
People are saying things
that are just patently false
and untrue.
Hysteria is a very easy thing
to pass along.
And especially, for instance,
to give an example
and to also bring Bernie S.'s case
back into this,
he was denied his probation
on Friday.
The newspaper headlines,
what few newspaper headlines
there were in the local area,
what was it that they said, Bernie?
Something about you continuing
to commit phone fraud or something?
Yes, the main headline was,
let's see,
judge tells phone hacker
his number is permanently disconnected.
And the subline was,
man's probation is revoked
after he continues to commit
telecommunications fraud.
Now, at that same hearing,
where this reporter was
who wrote that headline and story,
the Secret Service agent admitted
that I was never alleged
or charged to have committed
any communications fraud whatsoever.
Yet the headline said
that not only had I done it before,
that I'm doing it again.
Yet that flew in the face
of the fact
what even the Secret Service
was saying at this hearing
in sworn testimony.
So, you know,
I don't know what ever happened
to accuracy in reporting,
but apparently it's a dying art.
Jeff Goodell, you with us?
Yeah, I am.
Okay, does any of this surprise you?
No, it doesn't.
I mean, I just think
that there's a lot of general anxiety
out there about technology
and what people can do with it
and how it's changing our lives.
And I think that a lot of that
is getting funneled
into people like Kevin
and people like Bernie.
And I think added to that,
you have law enforcement
who is just, you know,
way behind the curve
on this stuff
and just doesn't know,
is not able to separate things,
is not, doesn't really know,
you know, a modem from a Macintosh.
And, you know,
this is the result.
Now, you can say
that law enforcement
is kind of out of the loop on this,
but then there are people
in computer security,
people like Sutomo Shimomura,
people who should know better.
What's their excuse?
Well, I mean,
Sutomo, I think Sutomo was,
genuinely wanted to get Kevin
out of his hair, you know.
And I don't think that Sutomo
was responsible necessarily,
personally,
for the way this thing
has been exploited
and has been
a long way out of proportion.
I mean,
he did hunt Kevin down,
but he's not the one
who wrote the New York Times articles.
And he's not the one
that gave the front page play.
And he's not the one,
you know,
who whipped up
a lot of this area.
I mean, he's obviously
benefited from it
and milked it,
but, you know,
it's larger than just Sutomo.
Actually,
I got to talk to Sutomo
and I actually have
a comment by him.
And I haven't read
the entire book yet,
unfortunately.
And this,
one of the sections
that I did hear about
referred to a local
internet provider
here in New York.
And he actually made
some really gross
characterizations about it
and about people on it.
One of the people
that he had mentioned
that were on it
was fiber optic.
And fiber has never been
on the system ever.
So when I got to meet
Sutomo at the book signing,
I asked him in front
of a crowd of people
how he could, you know,
go and print something
like that
and how he can claim
his book to be factual
when such a detail
as this
was completely off base.
And his answer to me
was,
oh, well,
I didn't actually
write that part.
One of my aides
was the one
who researched that
and put that part in.
Yeah, why doesn't he
just blame Andrew Gross
again?
Because he seems to be
responsible for everything
that went wrong.
Right, I mean,
but that's not the point.
I mean, the point is
he printed it
and his name's on it.
And I didn't get
a straight answer
from Markov either.
I asked him,
I said, you know,
you're a reporter
for some very
reputable newspapers.
I mean, don't you
check your sources?
Don't you check your facts
before you write the book?
I'd like to add
to what Jeff said
there a moment ago
because I think he's right
that John wrote the stories
and that really did
whip up the hysteria.
But I think
the truth is
that Shimomura
knew somebody
was trying to get
into his machines
early in fall,
two or three months
before.
And I don't think
this was a case
where his security
was, his fantastic
security was broken.
I think it's starting
to look more and more
like there's a strong
possibility that
it was a bait machine
and that Shimomura
had a plan
to turn this
into something
that it really wasn't.
And I think there's
a lot of things
pointing at it.
Well, there was talk
of his machines
being broken into
the previous summer
and that was not
addressed in all
of the books.
Now, what is it?
It was addressed
briefly in mine
as much as I could.
Well, it certainly
wasn't addressed
in takedown, was it?
No.
A lot of things
weren't addressed
in takedown.
Yeah, that's one
of the things that
the most frustrating
things about that book
to me is that
there's so much
about that story
that they both know
and didn't print.
I mean, you know,
they just started
from the date
of the break-in
and they don't go
into any of the history
of Tomo's relationship
with Mitnick
and Markov's relationship.
We have
Fiberoptic
joining us now.
I have a question
which no one
seems to be able
to answer
which has been
puzzling me
since this whole
thing began
and that question
is if
Shimomura is
such an expert
security dude
then how come
he was trusting
John Gilmore's
machine
Toad.com?
Well, I address
that in my story
and obviously
if he disabled
the R-command
this attack
would have been
impossible
and he knew
he'd been poked at
and he'd been
successfully attacked
the summer before
and the NSA
had been upset
about it
and he didn't
take that step
and that's why
you start to wonder
maybe he didn't
want his machine
to be secure.
Well, I mean
that's like
rule number one
well I guess
it's rule number two
right after choosing
a good password
but that second rule
is never trust
anybody else's host
it's ridiculous.
And as we know
there are tens
of thousands
of machines
that don't
trust other hosts
so that meant
on that day
contrary to what
the New York Times
and Markov
reported in
the New York Times
there were tens
of thousands
of people
who had better
security
than Satomo Shimomura.
Well, he clearly
was interested
in, you know
setting some base
to trap
to trap
Kevin
I mean there's
no question
that that was
sort of
on his lawn
just based on
the conversations
I had with
people at
the supercomputer
center about
some of the
other plans
that they had
prior to that
doing a kind
of cuckoo's egg
kind of
kind of ploy
which they decided
to abandon
at the last minute.
Well, it was
a matter of honor
that's something
that was brought
up many, many times
that he had to
he had to
right this wrong
that was committed
against him
and I think
maybe in the process
don't you think
maybe he lost
sight of what
it was he was
actually doing
by writing
a song?
That's one of
the big Wild
West stereotypes
that was given
to this
that he was
the guy
on the white
horse
and Mitnick
was the guy
with the black
hat
and as we know
Shimomura
associates
with hackers
who also
inhabit this
sort of gray
area
he helped
to develop
some cellular
software
that is considered
to be generally
hacker
cellular software
he also wrote
this Berkeley
packet filter
program
he modified
it
and as
Gilmore
has recently
alleged
in a post
to cypherpunks
you know
that could have
been a far
more dangerous
thing
than anything
Mitnick ever
ever did
or might have
done
well I know
this
that if
if I knew
of something
like that
that was in
existence
something that
that could be
used for all
kinds of evil
purposes
I'd at least
want to find
out if it
really existed
is that something
that's so bad
to actually want
to see if
something evil
is being developed
no
the question
that Gilmore
has raised
is that he
helped develop
the Berkeley
packet filter
which is
in Gilmore's
words
you know
a dangerous
actually he
says it's
an evil
program
and it
was on his
machine
and he
has claimed
that that
was one
of the
things
that was
taken
by whoever
broke into
his machine
and we
don't know
for certain
that Kevin
Mitnick
broke in
and the
question that
Gilmore has
sort of raised
is if he
was writing
this dangerous
program
and it
was for
the NSA
intelligence
agency
why was
it on
his machine
if he
didn't want
to protect
his machine
and I
think it's
a good
point
and unfortunately
Mr. Shimomura
isn't taking
any questions
that's interesting
too because
we contacted
Shimomura
we sent him
mail after
John Markoff
cancelled
and asked him
if he would
want to be
on the show
I expected
to be rejected
I didn't expect
not to get
any reply
whatsoever
we also
asked Andrew
Gross
his beleaguered
assistant
and at least
he had the
good grace
to contact us
and say that
he couldn't
do it
so unfortunately
I really wanted
this program
to be a rousing
debate between
the different
sides
but the folks
from takedown
weren't up to it
I guess
I could not
get anybody
well they've got
a lot of bad
press recently
the New Yorker
last week
had a really
devastating article
written by
Mr. Wright
it's hacker
versus hacker
folks have
seen that
it was a
January 29 issue
and it really
I think
follows on a
line that
I wrote about
and that Jeff
wrote about
we're about
to lose
Bernie
yes
Bernie
there's a lot
of noise
coming from
the prison
there
so we're
going to
have to
drop you
this time
that's okay
alright
but keep
in touch
give us a
call
by the way
your packages
are not going
through
they're being
rejected
so find out
about that
alright
I'll call you
tomorrow about that
yeah they say
they won't
accept packages
for you
so please
get back to us
on that
I'll do that
alright
good luck to you
good luck
with a fundraising drive
thanks a lot
take care now
bye bye
that's Bernie
talking to us
from prison
over there
in Easton
Pennsylvania
and I was there
for only a few
minutes
I tried to
visit actually
but they
wouldn't allow
that
and the place
is living hell
you have people
now
who are
guilty of
nothing so much
as curiosity
in fact
Bernie had to
apologize
before the court
for his
odd curiosity
in quotes
and it was
so sad
watching this
seeing this guy
who I know
who everybody
that is friends
with him knows
didn't do anything
I mean
Kevin Mitnick
is Al Capone
compared to this guy
and I don't even think
Kevin Mitnick
belongs in prison
but he has not even
been accused
of doing anything
yet he is
forced to spend
time with murderers
I mean murderers
rapists
the most
the most
however he is
can't be


and what people can do with it and how it's changing our lives.
And I think that a lot of that is getting funneled into people like Kevin and people like Bernie.
And I think added to that, you have a law enforcement who is just, you know, way behind the curve on this stuff
and just doesn't know, is not able to separate things, doesn't really know, you know, a modem from a Macintosh.
And, you know, this is the result.
Now, you can say that law enforcement is kind of out of the loop on this,
but then there are people in computer security, people like Sotomayor Shimomura, people who should know better.
What's their excuse?
Well, I mean, Sotomayor, I think Sotomayor was genuinely wanted to get Kevin out of his hair.
You know, I don't think that Sotomayor was responsible necessarily personally for the way this thing has been exploited
and has been a long way out of proportion.
I mean, he did hunt Kevin down, but he's not the one who wrote the New York Times articles.
And he's not the one that gave the front-page play.
And he's not the one, you know, who whipped up a lot of this hysteria.
I mean, he's obviously benefited from it and milked it.
But, you know, it's larger than just Sotomayor.
Actually, I got to talk to Sotomayor, and I actually have a comment by him.
I haven't read the entire book yet, unfortunately,
and this is one of the sections that I did hear about referred to a local Internet provider here in New York.
And he actually made some really gross characterizations about it and about people on it.
One of the people that he had mentioned that were on it was fiber optic,
and fiber has never been on the system ever.
So when I got to meet Sotomayor at the book signing,
I asked him in front of a crowd of people how he could, you know,
go and print something like that,
and how he can claim his book to be factual in such a detail as this was completely off base.
And his answer to me was,
oh, well, I didn't actually write that part.
One of my aides was the one who researched that and put that part in.
Yeah, why does he just blame Andrew Gross again?
Because he seems to be responsible for everything that went wrong.
Right, I mean, but that's not the point.
I mean, the point is he printed it and his name's on it.
And I didn't get a straight answer from Markoff either.
I asked him, I said, you know, you're a reporter for some very reputable newspapers.
I mean, don't you check your sources?
Don't you check your facts before you write the book?
And I'd like to add to what Jeff said there a moment ago,
because I think he's right that John wrote the stories,
and that really did whip up the hysteria.
But I think the truth is that Shimomura knew somebody was trying to get into his machines early in fall,
two or three months before.
And I don't think this was a case where his security was, his fantastic security was broken.
And I think it's starting to look more and more like there's a strong possibility that it was a bait machine.
And that Shimomura had a plan to turn this into something that it really wasn't.
And I think there's a lot of things pointing at it.
Well, there was talk of his machines being broken into the previous summer,
and that was not addressed in all of the books.
Now, what is it?
Well, it was addressed briefly in mine, as much as I could.
Well, it certainly wasn't addressed in Takedown, was it?
No.
A lot of things weren't addressed in Takedown.
Yeah, that's one of the things that, the most frustrating things about that book to me,
is that there's so much about that story that they both know and didn't print.
I mean, you know, they just started from the date of the break-in,
and they don't go into any of the history of Tomo's relationship with Mitnick and Markov's relationship.
We have Fiberoptic joining us now.
Well, I have a question which no one seems to be able to answer,
which has been puzzling me since this whole thing began.
And that question is, if Shima Mora is such an expert security dude,
then how come he was trusting John Gilmore's machine, Toad.com?
Well, I addressed that in my story.
And obviously, if he disabled the R commands, this attack would have been impossible.
And he knew he'd been poked at, and he'd been successfully attacked the summer before,
and the NSA had been upset about it.
And he didn't take that step.
And that's why you start to wonder, maybe he didn't want his machine to be secure.
Well, I mean, that's like rule number one.
Well, I guess it's rule number two, right after choosing a good password.
But that second rule is never trust anybody else's host.
It's ridiculous.
And as we know, there are tens of thousands of machines that don't trust other hosts.
So that meant, on that day, contrary to what the New York Times and Markov reported in the New York Times,
there were tens of thousands of people who had better security than Tsutomu Shimomura.
Well, he clearly was interested in, you know, setting some base to trap Kevin.
I mean, there's no question that that was sort of on his lawn.
Just based on the conversations I had with people at the Supercomputer Center
about some of the other plans that they had prior to that,
doing a kind of cuckoo's egg kind of ploy,
which they decided to abandon at the last minute.
Well, it was a matter of honor.
That's something that was brought up many, many times,
that he had to right this wrong that was committed against him.
And I think maybe in the process, don't you think maybe he lost sight
of what it was he was actually doing by writing this wrong?
Well, that's one of the big Wild West stereotypes that was given to this,
that he was the guy on the white horse, and Mitnick was the guy with the black hat.
And as we know, Shimomura associates with hackers who also inhabit this sort of gray area.
He helped to develop some cellular software that is considered to be generally hacker cellular software.
However, he also wrote this Berkeley packet filter program.
He modified it.
And as Gilmore has recently alleged in a post to cypherpunks,
you know, that could have been a far more dangerous thing than anything Mitnick ever did or might have done.
Well, I know this, that if I knew of something like that that was in existence,
something that could be used for all kinds of evil purposes,
I'd at least want to find out if it really existed.
Is that something that's so bad to actually want to see if something evil is being developed?
No.
The question that Gilmore has raised is that he helped develop the Berkeley packet filter,
which is, in Gilmore's words, you know, a dangerous, or actually he says it's an evil program.
And it was on his machine, and he has claimed that that was one of the things that was taken
by whoever broke into his machine, and we don't know for certain that Kevin Mitnick broke in.
And the question that Gilmore has sort of raised is, if he was writing this dangerous program,
and it was for the NSA, the intelligence agency,
why was it on his machine if he didn't want to protect his machine?
And I think it's a good point.
And unfortunately, Mr. Shimomura isn't taking any questions.
That's interesting, too, because we contacted Shimomura.
We sent him mail after John Markoff canceled and asked him if he would want to be on the show.
I expected to be rejected.
I didn't expect not to get any reply whatsoever.
We also asked Andrew Gross, his beleaguered assistant,
and at least he had the good grace to contact us and say that he couldn't do it.
So, unfortunately, I really wanted this program to be a rousing debate between the different sides,
but the folks from Takedown weren't up to it, I guess.
I could not get anybody.
Well, they've got a lot of bad press recently.
The New Yorker last week had a really devastating article written by Mr. Wright.
It's Hacker vs. Hacker.
Folks have seen that.
It was a January 29 issue.
And it really, I think, follows on a line that I wrote about and that Jeff wrote about.
Okay, we're about to lose Bernie S.
Bernie, there's a lot of noise coming from the prison there, so we're going to have to drop you this time.
That's okay.
All right, but keep in touch.
Give us a call.
By the way, your packages are not going through.
They're being rejected, so find out about that.
All right.
I'll call you tomorrow about that.
Yeah, they say they won't accept packages for you, so please get back to us on that.
I'll do that.
All right, good luck to you.
Good luck with the fundraising drive.
Thanks a lot.
Take care now.
Bye-bye.
That's Bernie S. talking to us from prison over there in Easton, Pennsylvania.
And I was there for only a few minutes.
I tried to visit, actually, but they wouldn't allow that.
And the place is living hell.
You have people now who are guilty of nothing so much as curiosity.
In fact, Bernie had to apologize before the court for his odd curiosity, in quotes.
And it was so sad watching this, seeing this guy who I know, who everybody that is friends with him knows,
didn't do anything.
I mean, you know, Kevin Mitnick is, you know, Al Capone compared to this guy,
and I don't even think Kevin Mitnick belongs in prison.
But he didn't, he has not even been accused of doing anything, yet he is forced to spend time with murderers.
I mean, murderers, rapists.
The most evil people that there are are, you know, his companions right now.
And this is what the Secret Service says is okay.
Let me ask you two as authors, does something seem inherently wrong with this?
Why are not more people talking about it?
Well, I think a lot of people, you know, they just don't know how to talk about it.
I mean, it's, you know, it's just something that they see as something that they don't understand,
that is far off, that is, I think it's, people are talking about it more and more.
I mean, now look, with what happened with Kevin, we have three books coming out, you know,
that are out about it.
We have, you know, before, in 1988, when Kevin was arrested, people, journalists, were able to get away with, you know,
writing more or less whatever they wanted about him, because there were very few people writing about it in those days.
And now we have a lot, it's much more into consciousness, and there's many more people writing about it.
It's much more difficult to get away with things.
And I think that's all to the good.
I think that the more the people who write about it, the more debate there is, the more public discussion,
the more we bring it into the public eye, the less likely it is that things like this will happen.
You see, I agree with Jeff completely.
I think the fact that both Jeff and I have been able to write books about this from different perspectives,
and hopefully we've both, you know, added something to the debate.
And it's not just us.
There have been, as I mentioned, the New Yorker had a great piece of The Nation when this first broke last year,
wrote a piece very critical of actually John Markoff.
And so I think what happened, as often happens, there was sort of a one-source story when it first came out.
It was John Markoff and Sutelma Shumor.
And because The New York Times is so powerful, a lot of the stories really imitated or simply ran verbatim The New York Times.
And fortunately for folks out there who'd like a different perspective,
there now are, you know, two other books which I think really have more of the true story.
Than the, quote, official New York Times version.
Yeah, you know, you do raise a very valid point there, because I remember the frustration when the Mitnick story was first breaking.
Everybody was saying the same thing.
Everybody was saying he was guilty of this, guilty of that.
Nobody was listening to the actual facts.
And I remember being the lone voice on the well during their various conferences on the subject,
saying, you know, guys, read between the lines here.
This can't necessarily be true.
You have to question things.
And now we see two books, at least, that are critical of this, magazine articles.
A lot of people questioning what really happened.
And I think that's healthy.
And, you know, Emmanuel, the net played actually a big part in this,
because you and many other people knew some of these facts.
You and other people knew that, for instance, there'd never really been any evidence that Kevin Mitnick was responsible for war games or that he had done the infamous NORAD hack quite some time ago.
And, of course, the lead item in the New York Times, that he had 20,000 credit card numbers.
So you and other people knew that this was overblown.
And those things sort of got out on the net, and journalists started to pick them up.
And I think it's taken a little while, but I think the truth is starting to come through.
Yeah.
I mean, I think one of the big themes in this is not just, you know, what happened with Kevin, but also the way journalism is changing and the way the media is changing.
I mean, you know, five or ten years ago, a book like Takedown would have been written, and there would have been no forums for people to debate it,
to hold the writer and Satomo accountable and ask them questions, as people have been trying to do now.
And now we see, even as the authors are out on the tour, them being pummeled by questions to right and left.
They can't go anywhere without having these questions raised.
And I think that that's a healthy thing.
I just think that's a healthy thing.
But, you know, the thing that keeps striking me is that these folks have gone out, they've written their story, they're millionaires now,
while Kevin is still in prison, you know, with nothing to look forward to.
Yeah, you're right.
That really bothers me.
Yeah, I mean, there's definitely something very wrong that happened here, because I think on two levels.
One, there's a person involved.
And, you know, whether you like Mitnick or not, whether you think he's a criminal or not, nobody should be used, you know, for publicity.
In an article.
But I think also on another level, besides the human level, we all were sort of used,
because the hype gave the perception that, you know, the sky was falling in, that the Internet was suddenly terribly vulnerable.
And, of course, the reality was the Internet had always been vulnerable.
And this was really a manufactured story.
And it really, unfortunately, gave a lot of impetus for those people who want more law enforcement, more monitoring, you know, really more Big Brother on the net.
And I think Kevin Mitnick lost in a very human way.
And I think we all lost in the beginning there, because the debate was focused because of that false impression.
I'd like to, at this point, read something from the John Littman book, The Fugitive Game, online with Kevin Mitnick,
that might bring this forth in a better way, I guess.
I've had to substitute some of the words because of the FCC, but I think the overall effect of this won't be lost.
Jonathan Littman was, of course, receiving phone calls from Kevin Mitnick.
He was actually in touch with him right up until the very end.
And this is a bit of a transcript from one of those phone calls from Kevin.
I'm not going to be able to call you anymore, but I wanted to tell you something first.
It's nearly nine on Friday night, just hours since America's most wanted computer criminal
checked in to laugh about Shimomura being hacked.
But now Mitnick's agitated.
Something's up.
I've never heard him talk this way before.
I just saw this movie, Murder in the First.
It's about this guy that stole five bucks, and they put him in Alcatraz for five years and started beating him.
Finally, he went nuts and killed somebody.
It's with Christian Slater.
It parallels my case.
Here I am, a computer hacker.
Not that I ever went to Alcatraz, but at MDC, they put me in this room with a dim light,
a bed, and a toilet, six by nine foot.
They let me out 45 minutes a day for fresh air.
The rest of the day, I was in the part where they send you if you've assaulted a prisoner or killed somebody.
Legally, you're not supposed to be there more than a certain number of days.
They do it to me for eight months.
I wonder if that has anything to do with how I think about them.
I was in this freaking room for eight months.
They used the telephone as an excuse.
We can't let him near a phone.
He might launch missiles.
I was in there eight freaking months, Mitnick shouts indignantly.
I don't think you can comprehend.
Go into your bathroom and put on a 50-watt bulb.
Try to stay there an hour.
Mitnick describes the daily rituals of his imprisonment.
They'd shackle my legs and arms.
Two guards would escort me, unshackle me, and let me shower.
A minute shower.
Then shackle me back and take me back to the cell.
I can see it for a few days, but eight months?
Go into the bathroom and put up a 50-watt bulb and see if you go stir-crazy.
Lippman asks, what time of the day did you go outside for the 45 minutes?
Whenever the guard wanted.
It was like a big patio all caged in.
Eight north.
Up on the eighth floor.
One time they put me up with one of these Cuban guys.
I say, why are you in the hold area?
He said, I have a three-man hold order.
They can't move me without three officers.
I killed two officers already.
Mitnick yells, they put me with this Cuban who killed guys.
What the hell are they doing that for?
Locking me up with that guy.
This guy, who knows?
Maybe he'll kill somebody for kicks.
It was torture.
You're just in there with yourself.
I mean, you're locked in your cell 23 out of 24 hours.
That's the worst punishment they could do.
It was torture, man.
It was hard to describe.
I mean, here it is.
What is it, six, seven years later, and I'm still pissed.
Littman asks, was there ever anybody else you talked to about this?
Kevin, I never talked to anybody about it.
They don't give a crap.
They say, oh, it's over.
But it's mental goddamn torture, and I'll never forgive the U.S. government for it, ever.
I'm not saying that I'm going to get even or something like that, so don't read that into it.
But I'll never forgive them for that crap.
It was the judge's order.
My attorney brought it up to the judge on several occasions in court.
And know what her comment was?
This is where he belongs.
And this is one of the most liberal judges in the L.A. area, right?
That's where he belongs.
I remember those words exactly.
It's like, you know, they show me no mercy, so why should I show them any?
No mercy, man.
Later, I phoned the Metropolitan Detention Center in Los Angeles, the federal jail where Mitnick did eight months of solitary, to check out his story.
There's very limited information that we would have, the warden's executive assistant tells me, suggesting I call Lompoc.
If the inmate had a discipline problem, all that information would be contained in the central file.
Officials at Lompoc also have little help except to explain that, as far as the Federal Bureau of Prisons is concerned, lockdown or solitary confinement doesn't exist.
First, the terms we use in the Federal Bureau of Prisons are administrative detention and disciplinary segregation.
Finally, I find someone at the Washington, D.C. office of the FBP.
I spell Mitnick's name, and she brings up his file on the Bureau's computer system.
Oh, there he is.
His registrar number was 89950-012.
He came to Terminal Island as a pre-sentencing admission on December 9, 1988.
Then he was transferred to MDC L.A. on December 12, 1988, and remained there as a holdover until August 12, 1989.
Was he in administrative detention?
No, answers the official definitively.
He was on a regular unit.
I was told he didn't receive the same treatment as other inmates.
It doesn't look that way.
There was only one episode, but if that's the reason why he was there or in any kind of different housing,
you're going to have to go through Freedom of Information Act for that, because I couldn't tell you that if I wanted to.
But she tells me anyway.
It looks like he was just in regular units except for maybe two weeks.
That's about it, from April 26, 1989, until May 10.
That was the only case where there was anything special about his housing.
The rest of the time, it looks like he was just in regular units.
Interesting.
As far as the Federal Bureau of Prisons Computers are concerned,
Kevin Mitnick's eight months of solitary confinement was only a two-week stint.
But in fact, Kevin Mitnick's version is true.
Newspaper articles, one book, Mitnick's attorney, and statements by the judge in his case
confirm that, indeed, the hacker was held in solitary confinement for the bulk of his incarceration.
John Lippman, that's powerful stuff there.
Well, you know, and the amazing thing is that a lot of other journalists have simply written that he was in Lompoc during this time.
Of course, Lompoc is a farm, and it's very casual.
It's where they send folks like Ivan Boski and Michael Milken.
And, you know, Kevin had ordinary attorneys.
He couldn't afford, you know, the million-dollar attorneys.
And so he got average justice, which in America, if they decide you are a dangerous criminal, isn't much fun.
And I think when you see what happened to Mitnick, you realize that he was punished for what they feared he could do.
You know, the judge really had all sorts of claims about how he'd mess with TRW reports and mess with probation officers.
And there was no proof of these things.
The case that he was in there for was a DEC case, Digital Equipment Corporation case.
The government claimed $4 million of damages.
When they finally entered a plea, it had been reduced to $160,000.
Typically, the $4 million figure was used for years by a number of reporters,
even though it had been even thrown out by the government.
So it's not clear that this has changed at all in his current case.
David Schindler is the U.S. attorney in Los Angeles who's prosecuting his case right now.
From all I can tell, Schindler wants eight years for Mitnick,
which is about what you'd get for manslaughter.
Unbelievable.
We're talking with Jonathan Littman, who is the author of one of the Kevin Mitnick books,
The Fugitive Game.
We're also speaking with Jeff Goodell, who wrote The Cyber Thief and the Samurai,
a book which is, I believe, a Dell paperback.
Is that correct?
Right.
And that will be coming out next month?
No, it should be in the store at the end of this week.
The end of this week.
Okay.
And that's quite a fascinating read as well.
Jeff's book is a bit more, I guess, kind of like a timeline sort of a thing.
There's plenty of insight in there, but I see less of the actual questioning of Markov and
more kind of getting to the root of what Kevin is, where he is coming from.
Is that a fair assessment?
Well, I think I question Markov plenty.
I mean, I think that, you know, I don't think that Markov, you know, is, I don't think this
was a premeditated plot to sell a book to make $2 million or whatever the final number
was.
I don't think that's true.
I think that he, you know, made some judgment calls in the reporting of this story that I
would question and a lot of other people would question.
But, you know, I don't see him as, you know, I just don't see this as something that was
plotted for a long time.
I have a hard time getting, I mean, I think that Markov was clearly the instrument by which
Kevin was demonized for a lot of his misdeeds.
And, but I just think that a lot of it was just a kind of institutional arrogance that
is bred among the New York Times reporters to paint things in black and white this way.
I mean, we saw this story hyped as well as it would have been hyped on Geraldo.
I mean, there was sort of no subtlety at all.
It was just the institutional point of view with complete disregard for the human being.
And the authors of the other book are not represented, unfortunately, on this radio program.
That book being Takedown, the Pursuit and Capture of Kevin Mitnick's America's Most Warranted
Computer Outlaw by the Man Who Did It, Tsutomo Shimomura, with John Markov.
We'll be getting back into our discussion in just a moment.
But first, I'd like to take some time out to encourage people to call in.
We have a special deal on this special Kevin Mitnick night of Off the Hook.
And it involves all three of these books, actually.
So if you are interested in the story, and I think many, many people out there are,
this is the perfect opportunity to learn, I guess, from all different sides to get as thorough a story
as you possibly can.
All right, here's the deal.
212-279-3400 is our phone number.
Now, we have what is known as a 2600 package.
That includes a subscription to 2600 Magazine.
We're the Hacker Quarterly.
Kevin Mitnick has contributed to this magazine.
We've covered the Mitnick instances over the years,
as well as many other hacker news items.
Most recently, we have some information from America Online
that some might consider to be a bit shocking and controversial.
That's in the current issue of 2600.
You'll get a subscription to 2600, as well as a copy of The Fugitive Game by John Lippman.
And that's for a pledge of $150.
That's right, 212-279-3400.
Call in for that particular deal.
The 2600 package, a one-year subscription to the magazine,
and a copy of The Fugitive Game.
We also have the special off-the-hook gold package.
Yes, the gold package.
All three books.
The Fugitive Game, Takedown, and The Cyber Thief and The Samurai.
More Mitnick news than you could possibly imagine.
And you'll get it all for $150, as well.
So, 212-279-3400.
Please show your support for this radio station.
Light up our phone lines.
We're only up to $850 for this program.
We really should be far beyond that.
And the reason we're kind of behind is because we've been spending so much time
talking about the issues.
We'd like to get back to the issues.
We'd like to talk about this some more.
We're on until 10 o'clock.
And we'd like to spend as much time as possible discussing what we consider to be timely news items.
212-279-3400.
We have all three books.
The Fugitive Game, Takedown, and The Cyber Thief, and The Samurai.
As premiums here at the radio station.
Our way of showing thanks for your support of freedom of speech.
And, you know, you may have seen a lot of coverage of the Takedown tour.
This occurred everywhere.
I saw Shitomo Shimomura on CNN.
I heard him on WNYC.
He was all over the place.
I haven't seen as much coverage for the other two books.
And I think that's unfortunate because I think they're the ones that really raise a lot of the questions
that the other book kind of chose to ignore.
Well, Emmanuel, I'd like to say that, first off, it's actually not quite right.
I think Jeff and I, both of our books, are starting to get lots of attention.
You know, I mentioned I was lucky to be on CNN yesterday.
This New Yorker story is about my book and Takedown.
And the New Yorker has just blasted Takedown.
And I know Jeff got a very good review in Entertainment Weekly, Jeff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, you know, the print really has a lot.
Print and radio have a lot more to do with, you know, why people buy books.
And it's true that Tsutomu has been on TV because he's got long hair and, you know, he looks hot and exciting.
But I think the reality is both Jeff and I, both of our books, are getting a lot of attention in the print media.
And I know, actually, I'll give myself a little plug out here in the San Francisco Bay Area.
And we got on the local bestseller list.
And that other book that I don't have to mention with Mr. Shimomara was not on the list.
So I think that there's been a lot of, you know, TV attention to Takedown.
But I think the fact is I think a lot of people are more interested in Mitnick.
And I think my book, The Fugitive Game, and Jeff's, and The Cyber Thief, and The Samurai really talk more about Mitnick.
And when you get down to it, that's what this story really was about.
212-279-3400.
We only have one call on the line.
So we need to bring that up significantly before we can go back to the actual lively discussion we're having about Kevin Mitnick
and the several books that have appeared and perhaps films that will be appearing in the future.
Please take advantage of this offer.
This is a one-time deal here where we're offering all three of these books to you as premiums.
As always, saying thanks for subscribing to WBAI.
And, of course, you can pledge any amount that you wish and still be a supporter of WBAI.
We have two calls on the line now.
You know, we have this neat gadget that is brand new here that shows you how many phone lines are coming in.
We have more phone lines than we ever had before.
Unfortunately, most of the little dots on that thing aren't lit up red like they should be.
Okay, three of them are lit up now.
Let's see if we can get a whole lot of them lit up because, you know, I kind of like to see how it works.
I've never seen this work before.
212-279-3400.
For $150, you can either get all three books or a package of 2600 Magazine and the Fugitive Game.
I don't really know why the Fugitive Game was the one that wound up with 2600.
It wasn't my decision.
Let me just tell you that right now.
Also, there's no hard feelings here.
But you can be, I guess, the most educated person on your block about Kevin Mitnick and about all the different things that have gone on in cyberspace.
It's, you know, it's not really hopping on the bandwagon to be reading up on this.
It is a very interesting story.
It's something that we should be questioning, something we should be talking to each other about.
Is this a proper way of treating people who are logging into computers they shouldn't log into?
I think reading all three books, which is something I've done in the past two weeks, really gets your mind full of a lot of the issues.
And I, you know, I would suggest everybody, whether or not they subscribe to WBAI at this point,
everybody should read these books and find out what the facts are, because these instances are going to wind up affecting us many years down the road.
You know, everybody, not just people on computers.
Am I right, John, Jeff?
Yeah, well, I think one of the things here, of course, is that Shimomura, of course, is the fellow who helped to capture Mitnick.
And it's clear he didn't have a lot of respect for normal law and order.
It's clear that, you know, I know in my book and I know in Jeff's book, we documented it.
In fact, in Takedown also, he misled the FBI.
He had his own agenda.
Gosh, he said there was a woman at the well who wanted to, you know, enforce the privacy of its subscribers.
He said he'd like to get a big rock and do something with that big rock and this woman.
So he had a guy who really is kind of a vigilante and seems to have his own agenda.
And I think that raises a lot of questions, and we don't necessarily, we might get excited by this capture,
and it certainly was an exciting story.
But I don't think we want people like Shimomura becoming sort of the cybercops.
I don't think we want really cybercops of any sort, whether they're the Guardian Angels or Shimomura or any one of us.
It's kind of a scary thought to think that people are looking over our shoulder and watching what we do and judging it.
212-279-3400.
We're in the middle of a pledge drive, and we need your support, voice your support for this kind of talk,
for this kind of discussion, and for this radio station, for this program.
You supported us in the past, and we need to hear from you now in order to continue in the future.
212-279-3400.
This is the only night that Off the Hook will be on during the fundraiser.
So this is, it's now or never, basically.
That's what we want to hear from, that's why we want to hear from you folks.
212-279-3400.
Here's a quote from Jeff Cordell's book, The Cyber Thief and the Samurai.
We're talking about Kevin Mitnick.
He was not Jeffrey Dahmer.
He did not kill people and eat them.
He was not a serial rapist or a terrorist bomber or a preacher of hate.
And he was not Ivan Balski or Michael Milken,
men who reaped billions with questionable trading practices on Wall Street.
By all accounts, Kevin wasn't profiting from his escapades.
He wasn't interested in destabilizing the U.S. economy
or delivering secret military documents to Saddam Hussein.
What he wanted, among other things, was the cellular phone source code
that would allow him to hack cellular phones.
A crime?
Yes.
But did that make him a menace to society?
Hardly.
In fact, Kevin's boldest move, and his stupidest,
was to make an enemy out of John Markoff,
the one man with the means to put him on the front page
of the most powerful newspaper in America.
That passage is referring to Kevin's reappearance last July 4th, 1994,
95, I'm sorry, on the front page of the New York Times,
which was a very mysterious story.
John and I both wrote about it in our piece,
because Markoff sort of plucked Kevin Mitnick out of nowhere.
There was really no news.
He just said that the FBI hadn't been able to catch him
because he had been on the run for a year or so.
But there was no real news there,
and it was a very peculiar story
that I have still not quite been able to make sense of.
Well, and Jeff, there was a couple of strange things that were happening.
You don't know if this had anything to do with it,
but John Markoff had a movie option,
and it was elapsing at that very time.
And Mitnick told me about it,
and told me that they wanted to extend the option for free.
He'd been paid some money, as had Markoff,
for a movie option from an earlier book that Markoff had written.
And you don't know if that had anything to do with it,
but again, I think you're perfectly right.
Not only was there no news,
but in that story he was unable to get one quote
from one current law enforcement official
saying anything about Mitnick,
saying that he was dangerous,
saying that he'd done something,
saying that they believed he'd done something.
So, you know, in a sense it was a one-source story.
It was John Markoff.
A lot of us were questioning that from the start
when we saw that.
Front page New York Times,
picture of somebody who's on the run,
and what's he accused of?
You know, he's not accused of anything violent,
not accused of stealing anything.
I mean, he was on the run from probation violation, for Christ's sake.
Yeah, and Mitnick himself...
How many people in America have, you know,
have split from their probation?
I mean, come on.
Yeah, there actually are thousands and thousands of people who do that,
who are on, you know, the run from their probation at any one time.
It's by no means, you know, a most wanted situation.
And Mitnick believed he'd served his probation.
There was even debate about that.
So, you just start to wonder.
Joker, you have something?
Yeah, I have a question for both the authors.
Having spoken to Shimomura,
who actually I think looks like one of the elves in Dark Crystal,
but that sounds just a personal observation.
I noticed, Jeff, on the cover of your book,
you say the true story of Kevin Mitnick.
And having, you know, already stated that I've asked Shimomura
about certain facts in his book,
which he admitted to not putting in himself and yet publishing,
even though they were unfactual,
including some of the information about, hypothetically,
the credit cards, you know, being stolen by Kevin,
which everybody in their grandmother knows
was, you know, released a year previous to that.
And what did you gentlemen do
to keep the books as factual as possible?
I mean, you're putting out a book
that obviously seems to have some good intent behind it,
but obviously, you know,
the purpose in putting out a book sometimes is to make money.
Well, I think Jeff and I both had a challenge
in that we both had good sources,
and I think we both tried to do the best research we could
in a short period of time.
But I know in my case, for instance,
I tried to interview Shimomura and Markov,
and what happened was an attorney called me,
and he said that he was an attorney,
but he wasn't working as an attorney.
He said he was working for Shimomura,
and he was his friend.
And I started to wonder about this guy,
and it turns out he made $250 an hour,
but he wasn't charging,
and I tried to get an interview with these guys.
It didn't look like anything was going to happen.
I finally sent 51 questions,
and about six weeks later,
I got an answer after my galleys had been done.
So basically the book was all finished.
I got a strange letter from Markov,
purportedly on behalf of both of them,
which didn't answer about 48 of the 51 questions
and obfuscated on other questions.
And so I, you know,
I figured I ran the letter in the end of my book,
and then the next time I heard from them,
they both threatened to actually sue me
through this same attorney,
and I had lots of letters from this same attorney
who suddenly worked for both of them,
which I found kind of interesting.
And that was my experience
in trying to get to the bottom of so many things,
and Jeff had a colorful experience as well.
You had to actually go skiing with him
in order to talk to him.
Yeah, I was working on a story for Rolling Stone,
which is this book,
I did a piece for Rolling Stone,
which this book was the basis for this book,
and Satomo was very elusive with me,
but he was clearly attracted to the idea
of getting a little more publicity.
This was just a couple weeks after the arrest,
and I think he liked the idea of a Rolling Stone piece
and of getting a little primer action for their book
stoked the interest a little bit more.
But he was very strange and elusive,
and if you read my book,
the last part of my book is about
my trying to track him down through a snowstorm
in the Sierras,
and what a wild, crazy thing that was.
But about the accuracy of these books,
I mean, all three of these books
were written under real pressure.
We had a very short time to do it
for as long of books as they are,
and I'm sure that all three books
have lots of little factual errors
that anyone could point to.
But I think the big question is a question of faith,
of good faith.
I think that from my reading of the two books,
John and I did our best to tell the story
as truthfully as we could from our point of view.
I think that the questions that are raised with Takedown
is that there's obviously a very deliberate limiting
of the perspective of the story.
It's very limited.
It doesn't tell you a lot of the backstory
that everyone knows that Satomo and Markov were aware of,
and it really does its best to try to pitch this
as a black-and-white story
of a good guy and a bad guy
that is, if you read the book,
it's like, you know,
it's written as a movie script.
It starts with an opening love scene in a hot tub.
Yeah, I was able to ask Markov about it.
I went up to him and I said,
so what's the movie called?
And he kind of looked at me and laughed
and said, we don't have a title yet.
Well, I heard the working title.
The ironic thing is it may have been intended
to be a movie script,
but boy, when you read The New Yorker,
it has gone over as a bomb.
Its best chances is a, you know,
B-flasher movie at this point.
I mean, a lot of people have made fun
of Satomo's hot tub scenes.
And actually, here's one of the twists.
When you look at the facts,
and I think Jeff's made a good point,
is that we both did our best,
and neither of us,
I know I'm not perfect,
you know, you can't get every single thing
exactly right.
But there's some strange things
in that other book,
and that is, in the New York Times,
when this famous Christmas attack took place,
Satomo Shimomura was up on his way
to go skiing in Sierra Nevada.
In their book, on Christmas Eve,
he's in the hot tub,
and on Christmas,
he's right where the attack is being rooted,
in bed, supposedly,
with somebody else's girlfriend.
And they never sort of explained
how facts like this change so dramatically.
The New York Times gave the impression
he was a long way from his computers,
or where the attack was taking place,
and we find out in their story,
he was sitting right on top of it,
you know, in a hot tub or in bed,
you know, not minding the store.
Yeah.
That is interesting.
And at least one reporter
actually went so far as to accuse him
of setting it up himself.
Right.
I mean, it sounds like Mercury, right?
Well, I think there is a funny coincidence,
and the New Yorker actually points it out.
Shimomura has never commented
on this bizarre coincidence.
You know, the attack took advantage
of a trusted machine.
It's funny, you know,
there's a man-machine irony here.
Mitnick took advantage of a trusted machine.
Shimomura was taking advantage
of a trusted friend of his
to make a romantic move
toward his girlfriend.
This was all happening
at the same place.
He happened to be
at the house
where the attack was being rooted.
And it is a strange coincidence.
And again,
it really wasn't addressed
in their story.
212-279-3400
is our phone number,
and we really need to have
some more calls come in.
We're up to $1,225 for the show,
which is okay,
but it's not really where we should be
at this point in time.
So please give us a call.
212-279-3400.
We're offering all three
of the Kevin Mitnick books
as an offer
to people calling in to pledge.
212-279-3400.
A pledge of $150.
We'll get you all three of those books,
and plus you'll be a member of WBAI.
You'll receive the program guide
every month,
so you'll know
what kinds of programs
are coming your way.
Also, for a pledge of $150,
you can get a subscription
to 2600 Magazine,
The Hacker Quarterly,
and a copy of one of the books,
The Fugitive Game by John Lipman.
All three of these books, though,
are very interesting,
very compelling reading,
very controversial
because of the issues of the day.
We're talking about reporters
getting it right,
not getting it right,
and I think, Jeff,
you should be commended
on what you write in your book,
one particular instance
where you refer to
a Rolling Stone article.
In my article about Kevin
and Rolling Stone,
which was written shortly
after he was arrested in 1995,
I trusted Markov's reporting
and, after checking with Rhodes,
decided to include the fact
that Kevin had broken into NORAD
in my article.
I now believe that it's probably a myth
and regret having included it.
I think it takes a lot
to admit something like that
and to say that journalists
don't always get the story right.
Well, I think that's our job.
I mean, we,
journalists is a very fraught thing to do.
I mean, we're constantly
making judgments about people.
We're constantly interpreting the world
for others to read,
and people trust us a lot,
and I think that it's very important
to, when you get things wrong,
to admit it
and to be straightforward about it.
I don't do anything.
I felt very bad about that,
but I did my best,
and, you know,
as soon as I found out otherwise,
I admitted it,
and I think that's
an important thing to do.
I think if you can't trust a journalist,
then, you know,
it changes everything.
I really wish
John Markoff was here
because there's so many questions
I want to ask him
concerning just that issue.
I have respect for him
as a journalist.
He's on top of a lot of stories,
but there are these
nagging questions
concerning his whole role
in the Kevin Mitnick saga
and his taking part
in the tracking down.
I mean, there are a couple of things,
actually, that bug me personally
because, as is mentioned
in all three books,
it was my conversation
with Kevin Mitnick
that they were listening in on,
and they were running around
in their geometros
trying to track him down.
Well, yeah,
and, you know, Emmanuel,
that's an amazing point
you bring up there.
To give listeners
the whole sequence here,
what happened was
Shima Moore first went
to Raleigh, North Carolina,
and then none of us
have been able to learn
definitively who invited him
to North Carolina
because he really
wasn't needed there.
He didn't even know
how to use something
called a cell scope,
which is to track,
you know,
the cellular transmissions.
He had no technical expertise
in that.
So he really,
there was no purpose
for him being there.
I suspect one of the U.S. attorneys
wanted some publicity
out of this
and wanted him there
and it was sort of
a trade-off.
But he showed up
the evening of Sunday,
the 12th, actually,
of February,
and a few hours later
John Markoff showed up.
And, again,
it's not clear
who invited him
because the FBI
certainly wouldn't
have wanted him there.
But he showed up
and what happened,
which is quite extraordinary,
is that at some point
they actually moved
the cell scope equipment
to track Kevin Mitnick
into John Markoff's car.
Now, when I wrote that
in the galley of my book
and when Markoff
got a copy
of the galley of my book,
his attorney claimed
that that was false
and it never happened
and he threatened
to sue me over that.
And I had interviewed
the cellular technician
whose car,
who had the previous car,
I interviewed him
several times.
And, but Markoff
denied this
and so in my book
I gave him, you know,
his denial
but I continued
with my story
and said he denies
this happened.
Well, I was very interested
to get Jeff's book
because Jeff had
the same story
and Jeff had
obviously talked
to some other folks
and he had
the same story
that the equipment
was moved
to Markoff's car
and they were tracking
in Markoff's car
and you don't normally think
a car rented
for the New York Times
is going to be used
in a law enforcement
investigation.
That's a very
disturbing
thing to raise
and something that I think
deserves to be debated
as to just what
his role in this whole
tracking incident was.
But, you know,
speaking as someone
who was personally
affected by this,
you know,
I'm always aware
that cellular phone calls
are able to be
listened in on.
I mean, I'm
demonstrating that
for people a lot.
But for my conversation
with somebody
to be used
as a way of tracking
down that person
by people who aren't
law enforcement agents
in the first place,
I don't know,
at least with kind of
a funny feeling,
you know?
Well, I think
the funny feeling
is correct in that
one could argue
that Shimomura
could have been
working, obviously,
for the FBI
or the Sprint
cellular folks.
But Markov,
you can't use that.
And so he'd gotten
himself into
an awkward situation.
And, of course,
journalists are supposed
to scoop the story.
But he was
so far ahead
in some ways
of the story
that he got himself
in some tricky positions
where he, you know,
he was actually
listening to your
phone call.
And the way I had it,
he helped identify
both you
and Kevin Mitnick.
So he's playing
an integral role.
He's intercepting
a call.
He's not authorized.
He's not allowed
to listen to it.
And I think
these things
are good questions
and they need
to be debated.
212-279-3400
is our phone number.
We're getting a few calls,
but we need to get
a lot more.
So people, please,
if you want to see
conversations like this
in the future,
if you want to
be a part of
these kinds of discussions,
I mean, we're talking
about, you know,
we're the players in this.
We're the authors
of the books.
We're the people
who are part
of the investigations.
We have people
in this room
that have been
prosecuted before
in ways similar
to Kevin Mitnick.
But, you know,
there aren't very many
places where you can
hear their stories
firsthand.
This is really
the only place
that you can hear that.
That's why we need
to get a strong
showing today.
212-279-3400.
Again, we're offering
all three
Kevin Mitnick books.
And this is the only time
this offer will be made
on this station.
And that's for a pledge
of $150.
Now, remember,
we take credit cards.
We take Visa.
We take MasterCard.
We even take
American Express.
So you can spread it out
over however long
you want to spread it out for.
And that will get you
all three of the books.
The Controversial Takedown
by Tsutomu Shimomura
with John Markoff.
You can read their story
from their point of view
because, unfortunately,
you can't hear
their point of view
tonight on the radio.
We tried to get them,
but they canceled on us.
You can read
Jonathan Lipman's
The Fugitive Game
online with Kevin Mitnick,
the inside story
of the great cyber chase,
and also
The Cyber Thief
and the Samurai,
the true story
of Kevin Mitnick
and the man
who hunted him down
by Jeff Goodell.
All three of those books
for a pledge of $150.
212-279-3400.
We have no phone calls
on the line.
Zero phone calls.
And, you know,
I'd like to do
a little better than that
because we have the capacity
to take something
like 20 phone calls now.
You know,
we expanded our phone line
so we can take
more pledges at once.
And we have a room
filled with volunteers,
people that simply
want to take your pledge
and that's why they're here.
And if they don't do that,
they're going to be
very upset and, you know,
frustrated.
And they'll feel
their lives are not worth anything.
That's not even starting
to get into how I'll feel
if nobody calls.
212-279-3400.
We have two phone calls
on the line.
We need to raise that
to, let's say,
you know,
something ambitious.
Like ten times that amount
because if we do that,
then we're that much closer
to our goal.
Our ultimate goal,
believe it or not,
is a million dollars
for this pledge drive.
One million dollars.
And we're almost there.
212-279-3400.
212-279-3400.
Again, all three books
for a pledge of $150
and you can also get
a subscription
to 2600 magazine
if you would prefer that
instead with one of the books.
212-279-3400.
We have three calls
on the line.
Let's see if we can
build that up to
an even five.
You know,
that would be nice.
212-279-3400.
Let me just ask
the two authors online.
You've been on many other
radio call-in shows,
I guess,
or talk shows
of any sort.
Is there anything special
you'd like to say
about non-commercial radio?
Its importance.
Well,
I have to say
I think radio
is terrific,
especially non-commercial,
because,
first off,
the hosts often
really know a lot more
about the story.
They're the people
who actually spend
the time to read
the books,
to read the articles.
I've been on
a number of TV shows
and there are
a lot of talking heads.
They might have
pretty faces,
but they're pretty darn dumb.
And I've enjoyed radio
and I think it's
a great source
of information.
I'll second that.
Yes.
Fiber,
you had something.
Well,
I wanted to say
that earlier
when you had mentioned
the article
that came out
in July of 1994,
I was actually
in prison myself
at the time.
And I recall
it coming out
and various inmates
had asked me about it.
And,
well,
they asked me,
you know,
what this person
had done,
Kevin Mitnick,
if,
why all of a sudden
out of the blue
they were writing
this story about him.
And I thought
it was quite odd
myself and
really took me
by surprise.
But,
it was almost
as if to say
that,
you know,
just in case
you forgot,
there's this
Kevin Mitnick guy
and he's really
dangerous and
we need to do
something about him.
Yeah.
Well,
I think you also
have to remember
that,
you know,
at places like
the New York Times,
especially last,
you know,
the learning curve
on this stuff
is so fast,
but last year,
you know,
so many people
just don't understand
how any of this
stuff works
and they cannot
judge for themselves
who is dangerous
and who is not.
So you have a lot
of very smart
and intelligent people
saying,
trusting someone
like John Markoff
when he comes
across someone
like this
or if he suggests
that Kevin Mitnick
is a very frightening
character.
There aren't,
or there haven't been
until recently,
there are very many
people out there
who can call him
on that.
There isn't like,
you know,
there's a lot of
editors at the New York
Times who understand
what an IP spoof is.
I mean,
it just doesn't happen.
And because of that
kind of ignorance,
you see these kinds
of stories.
You see,
you know,
this was seen
as a sexy way
to tell,
to funnel all of
this anxiety
about technology.
Here's finally a face
we can name.
You know,
I mean,
when this story broke
it was very interesting.
Everyone was saying,
oh,
this is Bonnie and Clyde
or Sherlock Holmes.
It fit into this
archetype.
And now,
after you look at it,
if you look at the three books,
I think you'll see
that that whole thing
is really unraveling.
And that was really
a creation of
the hype of the moment.
Yeah,
and I think
I'd add that to Jeff
is that now
we're starting to see
that Shimomura
really,
in some way,
is quite a bit
like Mitnick.
That he has his own
sort of dark past.
That he has his own
underlying motivations here.
That his sole purpose
wasn't to save
the internet.
That we know
that he was trying
to get half a million
dollars a year
from the NSA
and he was angry
at the intelligence agency
for not getting that.
I believe,
Jeff,
you asked Shimomura
if he had hacked
into systems in the past
and basically his answer
was he didn't want
to talk about it.
Right.
He was clearly
very, very uncomfortable
with that question.
And, you know,
Satomo,
he doesn't do anything
that he doesn't want to do.
I mean,
this is a guy
who's very smart,
very intelligent,
and been sort of pampered
all of his life
because of that.
He's got this kind
of eccentric genius
kind of rap
that allows him
to get away
with a lot of things
and he just doesn't
do what he doesn't
want to do.
Well, I think he got
away with a lot
because of the
kid glove treatment
in the New York Times.
And I think,
actually,
having looked at,
to me, Jeff,
the surprising thing
in their story
is he comes off
terribly
in their own story,
in John Markoff's
own words.
He comes off
as a guy
that maligns
his own assistant.
This kid
who's a bright kid
who's trying
to help him
capture Mitnick,
he's constantly
maligning him.
He misleads
and lies
to the FBI.
He talks about
taking a rock
to some woman
at the well
who's trying
to help him out.
He comes off
as an extremely
arrogant person
who has no respect
for anyone
or any form
of law or authority.
Let me just say,
I really,
really wish
that one of them
were here now
to address that issue.
It's too bad
we can't have
a back and forth
debate here.
I don't want this
to be a Markoff
Shimomura bashing,
but unfortunately
there are so many
questions that are
left unanswered
and by not being here,
unfortunately,
they will remain
unanswered.
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Two calls on the line.
Joker,
you have something.
Yeah,
I think it's really funny
that you comment
on Markov's involvement
in what's going on
and Sutomo's.
Thank you.


...sutomo was asked about the tapes, who I'm sure the two authors are aware of, the tapes, the taunting answering machine messages.
That's right.
Right.
Sutomo seems to think that Mittning was working on some sort of conspiracy along with another gentleman.
It was really funny because he was asked about it, and he said, you know, point blank, he said,
well, they said, do you have any information on who was on those tapes and, you know, anything that would lead you further into investigation?
And he said, well, I'm going to duck that question.
And then Markov pipes her in and goes, no, we don't have anything.
You know, there's some trace information, but obviously it's to a pay phone and we're never going to find out.
It seems like anything that attacks Sutomo in any way and maligns his credibility or his elitist status as a hacker or as a security expert in any manner,
obviously these phone calls and that, you know, he doesn't know who they are is obviously a slap in the face to him.
It seems that anything that attacks him in any way he just doesn't want to deal with and pleads with it.
Well, you see, the thing is, when you put yourself in the public eye and when you, you know, take part in a story like this,
you have to accept some criticism.
You have to accept some questions.
So that's certainly not something that we're just going to let sit.
We're going to keep on with our questions until we get some answers.
Well, and I think, in fact, both my book and Jeff's book are out now.
And a lot of serious mainstream journalists and a lot of serious publications, you know,
The New Yorker, CNN yesterday, as I said, these questions are now being raised.
If he doesn't come to his defense, you know, his reputation just won't be there anymore because they are really serious questions.
And he really was coddled, you know, by Markov in The New York Times.
And now some of the real facts are coming out, and he doesn't look quite so good.
Yeah, there's a review in The Sunday Times that, you know, in Markov's own paper that brings up a lot of the stuff also.
Interesting. I'd like to see that, actually.
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This offer is going to expire pretty soon, within the next half hour.
So we need to hear from you.
We're up to 2,000 mark, which, considering we've been on for two and a half hours, or we're going to be on for two and a half hours, is not really as good as we hoped it would be.
People are telling me something like 10,000, but I don't think that's, you know, I don't know.
That would take a miracle.
But it's happened before.
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Show your support for this radio station.
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I think whoever is on the tapes, back to that subject, should definitely get a hold of Shimomura and get a percentage of the profits for this, because he keeps referring to it constantly.
It's on the webpage, which I'm not going to promote if you guys want to go find it.
You know what really bothers me, though?
I was at that presentation at the bookstore in New York, and one of the things I asked Shimomura, how do you remember what you ate a year ago?
Because if you read the book, he's got like a list of everything he eats, every place he goes.
Emmanuel, a lot of reviewers are pretty tired of that.
It's, I mean, I really got a good sense of what he's all about, but he wouldn't answer that.
In fact, he wouldn't answer anything.
Actually, I believe his answer was, well, they must have been very memorable meals.
No, you know what his answer was?
I asked him, how can you remember this, you know, that took place a year ago, and he said, well, it wasn't a year ago, it was 10 months.
I'm like, oh, well, you got me there.
And so I just slinked away back into the corner.
But I'll tell you what really bugged me was when he was showing a demonstration on Dateline NBC.
Did you folks on the phone catch this?
No, I avoided it.
Okay, well, there was...
You know, it was a wonderful publicity piece.
It was.
That's what Dateline NBC was for.
Because you had Tom Brokaw sort of echoing a story that had been shot, was about to be shot to pieces by the New Yorker and serious journalists.
And it really showed that, you know, there's a certain part of it, as we said, this is the difference between radio and TV and print and TV, that, you know, he didn't care.
He knew the story wasn't true.
He knew that Jeff and my book were out, which had lots of facts to shoot holes in this.
But, you know, TV is TV.
Well, what really bothered me about this, and again, I'd like to see some phone calls coming in as I'm relating this.
212-279-3400.
Every phone call makes a big difference.
See how far we can get.
What really bugged me is that I was watching this.
And I watched it with freeze frame, you know, frame to frame to see what was going on on the computer screen.
And I saw an IRC session, an IRC session where Kevin was chatting with somebody known as JSC.
And I thought that was interesting, you know.
How exactly was this?
First, I thought it was Shimomura on IRC.
And then I looked at it, and I realized the local typing was just going by way too fast.
There was no way anybody could type something that quickly.
So what it must have been was some kind of a playback of a session that had been captured.
And then I looked a little closer, and I saw a list of subjects, subjects from mail.
All of them had to do with 2600 Magazine or Emanuel Goldstein or something related to me.
And I suddenly realized, hey, that's my mailbox.
Now, it was written in the book that Kevin had been grepping the subjects of my mail to see if anybody was writing about him.
In fact, you know, I even knew about this at the time.
It didn't bug me at all.
Kevin was not really a threat in any sense.
But here's Shimomura going around the country displaying the contents of the subjects of my mail
because he was able to capture Kevin when he did that.
And I'm saying to myself, you know, that doesn't seem right somehow.
This is, you know, my mail.
This is information about me.
And just because he captured somebody else doing that, does that give him the right to do this?
What do you guys think?
Well, you know, when it moved to the well, they had already demanded that Andrew Gross, his hapless assistant,
have sign a nondisclosure because what happens is the well is sort of operating like a phone company
and doing a fraud investigation.
And by law, they can't reveal that.
They couldn't reveal your email, for instance, if they found your email to the public or to the press.
So Gross signed the agreement.
And then this woman, Claudia Stroud, vice president of the well, said, asked Shimomura and said,
you know, you've got to sign this, too.
And there's this bizarre sequence in that other book where Shimomura says, yeah, maybe I'll sign it.
And then he has this sort of sub-dialogue where his internal dialogue,
and he says that he is thinking to this woman, nice doggie, nice doggie.
And as a friend once told him, you just say, nice doggie, until you get a big rock.
And it looks like he never signed this nondisclosure, but he clearly violated Andrew Gross was actually looking at the mail.
He clearly violated the nondisclosure.
He clearly was invading privacy of folks at the well.
I know I was one of them, and there were other people.
And you just had a case where a guy basically thinks he's so smart and he's so brilliant that he doesn't have to follow the rules.
Father?
Yeah, an interesting footnote about Shimomura is, Emmanuel, I don't know if you recall,
but when we attended the third conference on computer freedom and privacy in 1993...
This is the one that wasn't rated by the FBI.
Yeah, this is one that was the second one to be in San Francisco.
If you recall, the local indigenous hackers of the San Francisco area, I recall having numerous conversations with them about cellular telephones.
And thinking back, I remember them mentioning someone by the name of Shimomura in the context of being a cellular phone hacker.
I think it was the same Shimomura?
The same Shimomura.
And it was not the Shimomura who worked at the San Diego Supercomputing Center, who did jobs for the NSA.
It was just...
No, he helped hack, as you I'm sure know, he helped hack the Okie code with Mark Lauder,
who's the former roommate of Kevin Poulsen, who's about to finish his fifth year in the federal pen.
Yep.
He went by the name of VT when he did that, right?
Well, Markov, of course, wrote about all this.
In a Wired magazine, under pseudonyms, and you're right, the pseudonym he used for Shimomura was VT.
He quotes Shimomura, and if you're going to do something illegal, make sure it's interesting.
That almost sounds like something Kevin would say.
You know, and why is it when Shimomura says that it's okay, it's something cool,
something that winds up in Wired, but when Hibnick says it...
Markov disguised it with a pseudonym, but he, you know, people in the know knew that the other person was Lauder.
If you look at the descriptions, he says he has long, that Shimomura has long hair and Birkenstocks,
and he works for, you know, I think a federal, you know, federally-financed university.
So, you know, Markov knew he was on the edge, and he was certainly a hacker.
But those sort of things were left out of their version of events.
Now, let me ask you, John Lippman, you were receiving phone calls from Kevin throughout the whole period when he was on the run.
Did that bother you, knowing that he was a fugitive and that you were talking to him?
Was there any kind of moral issue or conflict that was raised?
Well, you know, I feel as journalists, really, journalists shouldn't be cops.
You know, we already have a lot of cops.
I think a journalist's job is to sort of explain things, explore issues.
I do feel, though, that everything has to be...
There are lengths to which you can go.
And if I felt Kevin Mitnick was, as Mr. Markov and Shimomura said,
if I felt Mitnick could have crippled the world, you know, destroyed the world,
if I thought he was going to kill somebody,
I think I would have had a tough choice about whether I would just, you know, keep talking to him.
But the more I found out, it seemed that, you know, unfortunately, he was a bit mixed up,
and he had a lot of heat on him, and he wasn't doing much more than pushing back
when the FBI, you know, came after him.
Yeah, one of the things, in fact, I got this out of your book, John Lidman.
When he was first on the run, or when he first started to go on the run,
one of the things he did was look up a phone tap to see if his own phone line was being tapped,
and he found out that it was.
I was asking myself a question.
Is there anything wrong with investigating someone who you think is investigating you?
Well, one of the, you know, interesting things I found is he told me this whole subplot
that's completely left out of Takedown, which I found fascinating.
And the FBI hired this underground hacker by the name of Agent Steele,
who's a guy who, you know, ties women up and wraps them in cellophane,
and they paid this guy cash.
They put him up in an apartment, gave him a cellular phone, and said, you know, go get Mitnick for us.
And I really couldn't discover that it looked to me that this guy was worse than Mitnick.
He actually did a $150,000 wire transfer electronically from a bank.
He threatened to blow up the bank.
But this was the guy they chose to go after, Mitnick.
And, you know, when you started to look closer, it seemed that Mitnick had some good reason
to try to find out who this fellow was and why they were sending him after him.
And it didn't look like Mitnick himself was doing much more than watching his pursuers,
the FBI and this Agent Steele.
Well, ironically, I myself was in contact with Agent Steele during this time period
when he apparently told me that he was living in an apartment in L.A.
and that he didn't really go into too much detail.
He never mentioned that he was employed by the FBI.
Obviously, if I knew that, I wouldn't be talking to him.
He also didn't mention that he had anything to do with Kevin Mitnick,
although sometimes we did talk about Kevin Poulsen, which is a whole different story.
But one of the things that I thought was interesting that he mentioned
is that he had a closed-circuit television that he could access
to see who was coming into the building.
Well, Mitnick fooled Mitnick.
In California, caller ID is not out there yet.
But, of course, Mitnick knew it's in the switch.
And when he paged Agent Steele to a payphone,
he turned on caller ID at the payphone, and he got the number.
He showed up all of a sudden at Mitnick's apartment,
where the FBI puts up a lot of folks,
and surprised the shit out of old Mitnick.
And the next thing you know, he knew all the phone calls
that Agent Steele was making to the FBI.
That sounds like self-preservation, trying to find out something like that.
I think it's sheer genius to put caller ID on a payphone
in a state that doesn't even have caller ID yet.
But that's, I mean, that's something that...
Well, that's pure Mitnick.
I mean, Mitnick, I think it's interesting.
Mitnick is not the most advanced technical hacker,
but he's a very clever guy.
And he understands, you know, social engineering.
He understands how to con people.
And in some ways, he's more clever in a human sense
than Shimomura was in a technical sense.
I've talked to him many times, as you did, John,
while he was on the run.
And it was sad, because you know that he just wanted to be social,
to hang out with people, to live a normal life.
But, of course, that could never be,
because of the way that society was perceiving him.
He told me that, you know,
world hunger would be blamed on him if it were possible.
Everything that went wrong on the net was Kevin Mitnick.
And there was really no way for him to redeem himself
because of the hysteria.
Once that front-page article appeared July 4th of 1994,
that was really the end,
because he was threat number one.
Well, I think you raised a great point, Emmanuel.
There were a lot of pranks that were on the net
by some sort of former associates
and so-called friends of Mitnick.
And I document some of this in my book.
A lot of them would just enjoy, you know,
putting out these pranks.
And Kevin was kind of naive,
and he would get all the blame for them.
I mean, he obviously did do pranks himself.
He sometimes did have a mean side.
But he got the blame for everything.
That's certainly true.
Emmanuel, I hate to interrupt this,
but I have to run.
Okay.
I have to also take a run.
I want to just say bye to Jeff.
Okay.
And to Fiber.
And to you.
I want to thank both of you for being on the program.
More importantly, I want to thank you for writing these books
because it gives us something to really think about.
A lot of important issues that will follow us for many years ahead.
And do you have any plans to write other things in the future?
Well, I'm working on my next book is on Poulsen, actually.
And I'm about halfway done on that.
And that's actually what I was working on before Mitnick.
So that's my next project, Kevin Poulsen.
Jeff, how about you?
Well, I'm busy doing my job.
I have a job at Rolling Stone.
So I'm writing away there.
Okay.
I don't know what my next book will be yet.
Okay.
And I assume John Markoff, even though he's not with us,
is going to be writing something in the future.
We'll see.
With all that money, you could even buy an island in the Caribbean.
That may be and it works.
Who knows?
Well, gentlemen, thanks very much for being part of this.
Thank you.
Thanks, Emmanuel.
All right.
Take care now.
Take care.
And we've been hearing from Jon Littman,
who has written the book The Fugitive Game,
and Jeff Goodell, who wrote The Cyber Thief and The Samurai.
Fiber, you have not yet seen this book, have you?
No, I haven't, actually.
It's a paperback, and it's the third of the three, I guess.
Actually, Takedown and Fugitive Game came out about the same time,
and Cyber Thief and The Samurai came out last.
So, this is your chance, WBAI listeners who are out there.
We've made it up to $2,500, which is good.
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All you have to do is call us, 212-279-3400.
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We could do that.
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Yes, that's what they all sound like.
They could be plopping down on your table
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and spend the next few weeks, actually,
going over all the little intricate details in these books.
It's quite a story.
There's lots of little sidebars and things.
There was a point in Seattle
where Kevin was living under an assumed name
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But they missed him.
They somehow let him escape.
You can find out all of this.
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Zero.
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That line is not lit, is it?
No.
No.
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You know?
How hard is it?
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You know, it's a very simple thing.
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Okay.
I'm being passed a note here.
All right.
You did a good job hiding it.
May I...
What's that word?
Help.
I thought I'd just come in
and give some help
for Emmanuel Goldstein
who does a remarkable show.
David Burstein
from the Personal Computer Show.
We used to be neighbors.
Yes.
We used to be together
on Wednesday night.
Hard to see each other anymore.
Much to our loss and chagrin.
Yeah.
And I thought I'd come in
because I was in tally
and the phone wasn't ringing
the way it should.
Yeah.
What's wrong with that phone there?
And we figure it's the phone wrong,
but maybe you can help there
and solve that phone problem.
That's right.
Emmanuel does something
very special.
You know,
I turn around
and I'm back there
and I actually work
with some of this stuff
and I just listen
and I say,
he's saying,
what?
You mean,
really?
Oh!
And I'm constantly
being amazed
and surprised.
Partly because of
the quality
of the information,
partly because of the guts
that he shows on the radio.
4-2-9.
Those are the first
three numbers
of the President's
Social Security number.
That's guts, okay?
4-2-9.
There you go.
Now,
we sit here saying
2-7-9-3-4-100
to persuade you
to call
and put some money on
and that's a way
of showing you
respect for the person
on the air
and the quality
of the work.
That's right.
I can sit here
and say his work
is wonderful
but unless some
of you folks
call and turn around
and pledge for
some of this stuff,
it's not visible
here at the station,
it's not getting
the kind of support
that frankly
he's earned.
Right.
You know,
you're sitting here
and there's a whole
room full of people.
I mean,
the show is Emmanuel
but there's also fiber
and I look around
and there are about
eight people in this room
who know more than I do
about computers
and I'm considered
a professional
in this business.
Certainly on the stuff
they work at,
they know a heck
of a lot more
than I do.
Don't forget our
camera crews.
We've got a Canadian
camera crew
and a Japanese
camera crew today.
Every week we have
a different camera crew
here.
I think that's
pretty cool.
Now,
if there's any way
to get that t-shirt,
that's really
the special premium
that you could walk
in with a 2600 t-shirt
at any computer event
and instantly
there are two reactions.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah,
I know about those reactions.
But I don't know.
I don't know
if we want that
on our conscience
but I don't think
that the t-shirts
are on the premium list
this marathon round.
But 2600 magazine is.
2600 magazine is,
yes, that's true.
Also a slew of books
and everything else there.
A slew of books.
A virtual slew.
Whatever that means.
But call us up.
212-279-3400.
Ask all volunteers
who have been educated
on the subject
what is available,
what pledge will get you what.
212-279-3400.
We're in the closing minutes
of the show
so we'd really like to see
a strong flourish.
There are seven people
ready to go tally.
I'm going to go try
to be useful
and I'm going to go
try to help tally.
So please keep me busy.
David,
I have one last thing
to say to you.
9-2.
Those are the next
two numbers
in his social security
number there.
429-Arkansas?
It must be
because isn't that
where he was born?
I don't know.
Social security numbers
represent where it is
you're born.
Now, we talked about this
several weeks ago
and we were talking
about privacy
and how our social security
numbers are no longer
something that is kept secret.
How there are no laws
against giving out
social security numbers.
You can collect them.
You can do whatever
you want with them.
And that's something
that affects people
on an individual basis.
So this guy
out in California
is going around
collecting social security
numbers and there's
absolutely nothing wrong
with it.
We had him on the show
a few weeks ago.
No one else is going
to talk to somebody
like that.
No one else is going
to bring issues up
like this.
It's fairly controversial.
Fairly controversial
to be talking about
issues like this.
To be kind of
waving them
in people's faces.
But it gets attention.
It gets people
to think.
And that's what
we're here for.
Hey, we've got,
you know,
he's got magic touch.
We have six phone calls
on the line now.
212-279-3400.
Take advantage
of the book offer.
And you know,
if a couple more people call,
I'll get to see
those extra lines
light up that I
never saw it light up
before because
we've brought in
new phone lines
for this marathon
and it's a whole
exciting thing.
212-279-3400.
Now, to continue
with this topic
I've brought up,
several weeks ago,
the person we were
speaking to on the air
said that he had
the president's
social security number
and he wasn't sure
if he should give it out
at that particular
point in time.
And I said to him,
well, okay,
do this.
Send it to me
and I'll give it out
and if I don't hear
anything in the next
three weeks,
I'll assume that
it's not going to
upset anybody,
that I'm not being
warned not to do this.
So it's something
that I think is
perfectly legal
and above the board,
although it may
annoy some people,
particularly our friends
in the Secret Service.
But, you know,
why should one person
get more privacy
than another person
when our social security
numbers are being
bandied about,
you know,
all over the place?
We have no privacy
anymore.
All of our information
is out there
on databases
being traded
left and right.
Seems to me
that what's good
for the goose
is good for the gander.
I believe that's
how the phrase goes.
So, let me finish
just by saying
these three numbers,
994.
Now, you'll notice
that I said
429-92-9994.
I'm missing a number.
I'm going to leave out
the last number.
And I'll say
that that is my gift
to the cause of privacy,
that the President's
social security number
is now ten times
more protected
than any of ours
because we're not
giving this one out,
we're just going to
give out part of it.
You know,
and that's something
that I think is,
I don't know,
it drives home a message.
No, I didn't write
it down either.
I know what it is,
I know what it is,
but I'm not going
to say it
because I think
the point has been made
that our numbers
tell the entire story
about us
and that's got to stop.
We have to have privacy,
we have to be able
to protect
that which is ours.
And I think
Kevin Mitnick
of all people
would agree with that.
He would agree
that privacy
is something
that should be guarded,
something that should be,
I guess jealously guarded
I guess
is the best way
to phrase it
because it's your life,
it's everything
that you've done.
I'm not going to sit here
and expose somebody
100% give out
all their information
because it's not fair.
It's not fair for me
to do it,
it's not fair for it
to be done to me.
But just to give you
an idea,
we can do it
if we want to.
We have to change
the system,
we have to change
the way things work,
we have to start
thinking a little bit more.
Joker.
You said that's something
Kevin would say.
Is he banned
from using
all telecommunications devices?
Why have we never
been able to hear from him
or contact him?
I don't think he's allowed
to talk to anybody
except relatives
and lawyers,
unfortunately.
Otherwise we would
have him on the show.
I'm trying to get around that,
I'm trying to figure out
a way where we can
talk to him
in person
and that would be great
if we can actually hear
it from his point of view.
I'm just happy
that we're still able
to talk to Bernie S
and hopefully
at his next sentencing hearing
which is March 5th.
Hopefully a lot of you
will come to that
first of all.
Hopefully a lot of press people
will cover it
and will get the story right.
Hopefully something
will happen then
and he'll be released
from this living hell.
This is somebody
who hasn't even done anything.
So it's a most incredible story,
one of many incredible stories.
Fiber, you lived through
your own incredible story
only a couple of years ago
and we follow that
here on the radio.
I'd like to say
there won't be any more stories
like that
but something in me
tells me that
there will be more
and you're going to need
a place,
a forum
for all of this
to be brought out.
We only have two minutes left
so please,
if you're going to call us,
call us now.
212-279-3400.
212-279-3400.
Show your support
for a radio
that isn't afraid
to step on a few feet
occasionally,
isn't afraid to get
the different opinions
out there.
They need to be said,
they need to be heard
and if they are not heard
then they are completely
powerless.
Nobody knows.
Up until all this
started to happen
to friends of mine,
I wasn't aware
of the injustices
in the prison system.
I wasn't aware
that people
had no rights whatsoever.
There was a whole class
of individuals
that were just
swept under the rug.
A lot of them
innocent people,
a lot of them people
that have maybe
committed crimes
of a very minor nature
but their entire lives
are being destroyed
and I got woken up to this
and a lot of us
are being woken up to this
so you see,
one issue leads to another
and it just keeps
getting bigger and bigger.
That's why you need
a radio station
like WBAI.
Please,
212-279-3400.
We're approaching
the 3000 mark,
2875 is what we're at
and we have a few
phone calls coming in.
Please answer those calls,
212-279-3400.
Next week,
we'll be back on the air
with a regular
one-hour program
from 8 to 9
and we won't be asking
for money then
so if you want to
support the radio station,
this is your only chance.
Again,
we have three books
to offer,
all on Kevin Mitnick,
The Fugitive Game,
Takedown,
and The Cyber Thief
and The Samurai.
All three books
come your way
for a pledge of $150
or you can get
one of the books
for a pledge of $50.
If you want to subscribe
to 2600 Magazine,
you can get that
along with one of the books
for a pledge of $150.
Either way, though,
you will be supporting
the radio station.
That's the most important thing.
Don't call just for the books.
Don't call just for the magazine.
Call because
the radio station
matters to you.
Call because
Off the Hook
matters to you.
You know,
I heard our very first show,
Fiber.
You know when that was?
It was back in 1988.
In fact,
it's on the internet now.
If you want to download
a 14-meg file,
you'll hear our first show,
which also is
two hours and 30 minutes.
We have it on the FTP site,
ftp.2600.com.
And you can hear
our very first show,
which aired on October 6, 1988.
It was the second attempt
because we tried to air it
over the summer of that year,
and that was the exact moment
that there was a fire
in the Empire State Building
and all the radio stations
in New York City
got knocked off the air.
So we rescheduled it
for October,
and it exists to this day.
You can still hear
that particular radio program.
So everything we say here
goes down in history
in one way or another.
This radio show
has touched a lot of people
over the years.
We hope to continue
for many years to come.
212-279-3400.
Show your support
for this radio station.
Show your support
for WBAI.
It's 10 o'clock.
Is anybody else on the air?
Okay.
Hopefully somebody's,
somebody's,
David,
is David out there?
Who's on the air next?
Everyone's waiting
for you to wrap up.
Oh, okay, fine.
I just wanted to make sure,
because I could go on
for another two hours
talking like this,
but I don't really think
that's in the public interest.
212-279-3400.
By the way,
just to update people
on fiber,
maybe we could say
a couple of words on this.
To emphasize the power
of the internet,
the power of freedom of speech,
we've been talking about
our whole PSI escapade
over the past few weeks
where we had some kind
of a disagreement with them
about their services,
and we put up a web page
explaining all of this.
Well, they got pretty upset,
didn't they?
Yeah, disagreement.
That's a good way of...
Well, I'm trying to be civil,
you know,
I'm trying to make it so that
I'm no more condescending
than I have to be.
But yeah,
they saw the web page,
they were quite upset by it.
In fact,
part of the web page
is a voice file
that plays back them
in their own words
saying something
which they deny saying.
And they sent us this letter,
they sent it via fax.
Well, they also deny
saying it in another state.
It's such a bizarre...
We'll spend more time
on this next week,
but it's such a bizarre thing.
First, they say
that we talked to them
in another state
which we didn't talk to them in,
and that talking to them
and recording it
is illegal.
And then they say
that we have to take
that off right away
or they're going to sue us.
I'm sorry?
What was that?
Take the tally to $3,000.
You want to take it to $3,000?
Okay, I've been instructed
to take the tally to $3,000,
so I guess let's steer
this big ship
and head over to Ward 3.
212-279-3400.
Please help us get there.
So anyway,
the story with that is
they first of all
weren't happy with us
using a parody of their logo.
They said we were infringing
on their copyright.
Fine, no problem.
We took it off.
We changed it to something else,
something more appropriate.
It's called PSI Hell
and it's on fire.
So if they prefer that, fine.
But as far as
recording someone's phone call,
according to New York state law
and according to federal statutes,
it is perfectly legal
to record a phone call
as long as one of the parties
knows about it.
I, being one of the parties,
knew about it
when I was doing that.
And they tried to twist it
by saying that I had somehow
wound up talking to somebody
in Pennsylvania.
Now, in fact,
when I called them,
they answer in Virginia.
And to make sure of this,
I called them again
and I recorded it this time
and I asked them,
do you ever pick up
in Pennsylvania?
And they said no.
So now that's on the website too.
So the thing is,
you know,
this is a situation
where obviously
a lot of people
are getting the information
and it's upsetting
the powers that be
because it's saying something
that they don't want to hear.
They don't want this to get out.
But we're doing it anyway.
And the underdog,
which is always us somehow,
has a chance
to reach people
to get their side
of the story out.
Ordinarily,
we would not have that chance.
So yeah,
the net is an extremely
valuable tool.
Through a web page,
you're able to reach
as many people
as some of us
on a radio station.
And that's a good thing
to see the power
of the mass medium
getting into the hands
of individual people.
This is the kind of thing
we talk about
on this radio show.
This is the kind of thing
we want to focus on,
how you too
can have access to this.
That's really
what it all boils down to.
Now, of course,
there's a lot of people
that feel uncomfortable
about this.
They don't like individuals
having this much power.
But you know,
I think individuals
having power
is one of the best things
to ever happen.
And what we're moving
towards now
is something unprecedented
in the history
of civilization.
So,
oh,
over the 3,000 mark.
How do you like that?
Thank you,
everybody who called in.
And you know,
you're welcome
to keep calling
if you want to.
But we're going to be
heading out of here
right now.
It's been fun.
It's been tiring.
And it's been educational.
Again,
212-279-3400.
A pledge of $50
will get you
one of the three
Kevin Mitnick books.
A pledge of $150
will get you all three.
And there's all kinds
of variations thereof.
Call one of our volunteers,
212-279-3400.
They will explain it all to you.
This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
I've been with you
for the past
two and a half hours.
And it's been a lot of fun.
We'll be back again
next week,
next Tuesday night
at 8 o'clock
for a one-hour show.
And we'll be updating you
on all the fun things
going on
in our little world.
So stay tuned
and keep supporting
the radio station.
212-279-3400.
Good night.
I cut myself all shaving
Now I can't make a cough
It couldn't get much worse
But if they could, they would
Bon Dillibong
But the best, expect the worst
I hope that's understood
Bon Dillibong!
That would be fun.
Bon Dillibong
Wow !
Oneدي
Let's read
That would be fun.
Windows 6
Windows 7
What is good?
Windows 7
Both 6
10
Windows 7
Windows 7
2
Or
By
My
Leno
0
Is
For
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I think we've got to get on with the commonalities while at the same time recognizing that we also have the right to be different in many respects.
But is that possible? Is that achievable?
Well, we'll find out. Let's find out.
That's our only hope.
I agree. It's our only hope.
We have no choice but to figure out how to do it together.
Listen to The Legacy of Integration, coming to this station from Pacifica Radio.
There's been so many things that's held us down
But now it looks like things are finally coming around
I know we've got a long, long way to go
And where we'll end up, I don't know
But we won't let nothing hold us back
We're putting our show together
We're polishing up our act now
And if you've ever been held down before
I know you refuse to be held down anymore
You're listening to 99.5 FM, WBAI, New York
Support this community radio station by calling 212-279-3400
Support in any and every way you can
212-279-3400
Thank you
We're on the move
I know
I know
Aint no stopping us now
We've got the move
We've got it
Thank you.