Avenue and 3rd Avenue, or call us at 212-279-0707, extension 122,
and let us know you're coming to the WBAI 99.5 FM website celebration.
That's right, we're all going to be there tonight, and hopefully you can make it too.
That's at the At Cafe down there in St. Mark's.
Right now, though, stay put, because Off the Hook is on.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
It could be yet much worse, but if I could, they would.
For me, we're bound for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood, but me, we're bound.
We'll be right back.
Thank you.
And all that dead air was for a reason.
It's not because we're incompetent or anything like that,
but we're trying to do two things at once here.
We just got an automated collect call from Bernie S.,
and I'm not sure if we messed it up or not.
I think we did.
I think we did big time,
because I don't hear anything over there.
No, it doesn't appear like the call is still there.
Okay, that's too bad.
And he just called in the very moment that we went on the air,
and there was this automated thing that was coming over the telephone,
and we were trying to hit the right button at the right time,
but, of course, it wouldn't accept our buttons
until it finished its little spiel there.
I don't think there's anybody there.
I can't even hear my touchtone, so I don't even know if...
Okay, let's try it now.
Is anybody there?
No, that's just...
That's the sound of a phone line hanging up.
Okay, we'll see if he calls back.
We know he's out there.
We know he's trying to reach us.
I can tell you this.
He got transferred this morning to a different prison.
That's right.
He got transferred someplace else.
Maybe this is him.
I'll hear a different automated collect call thing here.
Hello?
AT&T has a collect call from...
Bernie S.
...at the Bust County Correctional Facility.
To refuse this call, hang up.
If you accept this call, do not use three-way or call waiting features,
or you will be disconnected.
To accept this call, dial one now.
Thank you.
Well, that seems to have worked.
Bernie S., are you there?
Yes, I'm here, although it's very noisy in this facility,
so you're going to have to speak up as loud as you can.
Well, it sounds like they've moved you into an aluminum can or something.
Hold on a second.
Let me...
Barely hear you.
I've got to cover my ears up.
What was that?
You're in some kind of...
It sounds like a wind tunnel of some sort.
Oh, it's so noisy here.
I can't hear it.
Oh, here we go.
Very hollow sound there.
There.
How do I...
We hear you fine.
Can you hear us?
I can hear you now.
There's apparently a volume control on this phone now.
Now I can hear you better.
Okay, this is the first time in several weeks we've actually managed to get you on the air
for a variety of reasons.
We failed to maintain contact.
But as of this morning, you were transferred someplace else.
Do you have any idea why this was?
I was rudely awakened about 6.30 this morning by Bucks County sheriffs
and told that I was coming with them.
I've been staying at Northampton County Prison in eastern Pennsylvania.
And for some unknown reason, these Bucks County sheriffs were here to pick me up
and take me to Bucks County Prison, which is about an hour south of where I was.
So I had about five minutes to pack up all my belongings.
And the only thing, it turns out, I was allowed to bring with me was my legal papers.
All my books, personal facts, cosmetics, that kind of stuff, I was not allowed to bring with me.
And so I guess they were just left to other inmates.
I'm sure they were ravenously grabbed by the other inmates.
So I'm here in this modern facility here in Doylestown, Pennsylvania.
And I have no sure idea of why I'm here.
Interesting.
I talked to one other inmate here who told me that the reason I was in here was to be punished.
He said everybody comes here to be punished because this is one of the more medieval institutions in Pennsylvania.
I don't see that. It's more modern than the other place.
The place I was in was built in 1867.
And this place, how old is this place?
Exactly 11 years old.
So exactly 11 years old.
And it's more modern, however, the guards seem to have a lot more anger they carry around with them.
They bark orders and insults at you.
It's very noisy here, and it's just much more rigid here than the other place.
The other place was in a rural area, and the guards were easier to get along with, even though the facility was a lot older.
So I would like to go back to where I was if I have a choice of prisons, but apparently I don't.
One of the sheriffs told me that I was part of a prisoner exchange, and that they were exchanging a prisoner from this prison with me at that prison.
I didn't know they did that within the prison system.
I thought that was only done between warring countries.
So I don't know why I was traded, but I was traded.
Wow.
So you have no idea why you were suddenly transferred to this prison, then?
Well, I got a glimpse of the paperwork, and it said, agreement made between wardens.
I don't know what this secret agreement was, but apparently I was traded for someone else.
And I asked the nurse, who took blood samples when I got here to make sure I didn't have AIDS or other diseases,
and I asked her about the situation.
She said, oh, these wardens, they trade inmates like baseball cards.
So I've been traded.
And I don't even have a big multimillion-dollar contract to say anything for it.
So here I am.
This is a more stressful place because I don't know anyone here, and it's closer to a metropolitan area,
so you get more metropolitan-type people, so it seems less laid back than the other place.
Coincidentally, though, I ran into a 2600 reader here as an inmate.
Oh, boy.
I guess that's becoming more and more common.
What's that?
It's probably becoming more and more common in the prison system.
I ran into a gentleman here who goes by the name Mason Wall,
and the first question, he walked up to me, he said,
you must have been busted for computer hacking.
I said, well, what makes you think that?
He said, well, he just looked like he might have been.
So he asked me if I'd read Bruce Sterling's book, The Hacker Crackdown.
And I said, well, yeah, how do you know about that book?
And it turns out this guy is just an information magnate like I am
and reads 2600 magazine and keeps up on hacking issues.
I don't know if he's a hacker himself, but he seems knowledgeable about the whole concept.
So that was pretty interesting to run into somebody here who actually knew who I was,
had never met me before, but knew about me from reading and so forth,
and knew of you and other people in the hacking community.
Wow. So now, what kind of prisoners are there?
What are most people in there for?
I'm sorry, I'm having trouble hearing you.
Okay. Can you hear me now?
Yes.
All right. What kinds of crimes are people being locked up for in this particular prison?
Is it basically the same thing as the last one?
I think the people here on this cell block, again, in what's called D tier or D block,
I'm not locked up with the most serious offenders as I was in the other facilities.
The other facilities, remember, I was locked up with the 24 most dangerous or violent inmates,
or those are the highest bail.
In this place, because my bail was a quarter of a million dollars,
but since I've been sentenced now to a six to 24 months in prison,
with about three months to go before I reach that minimum six months,
apparently I'm not as risky a flight risk as I was before.
So I'm not housed with the most dangerous people here anymore.
So there's people in here who've...
All right. What do you say are the most common offenses here?
Violating protection from abuse orders.
Okay. A lot of protection from abuse orders are violators.
People who have been accused of beating their spouse,
driving under attack while under the influence of alcohol or drugs,
burglary, everything.
Any murderers in here?
Yeah.
In here?
Yeah.
Okay. Apparently murderers don't stay in this particular block
or you often get transferred elsewhere after they're here for a few days.
This apparently, including a mason wall here,
this is a maximum security facility,
but it doesn't look any more maximum than the places I've been in
the past year or so.
So maybe they're all maximum.
Is that the prison press spokesperson you're talking to there?
I'm really sorry. It's so noisy here. I can't hear you.
What was that?
I was wondering who you were speaking to
that was giving you all this information.
You were wondering what?
Who you're speaking to to get all this information.
I'm speaking to Mason Wall.
He's this person who's familiar with hacking from reading 2600 Magazine.
And he reads Wired Magazine apparently also.
So I won't hold that against him.
Wow. Now, is there any change in visitor policy, do you know?
Yes.
As I spoke with you last night,
there was a change in the visiting policy in Northampton County Prison.
But now, of course, there's going to be another change.
It looks like they visit here only once a week,
and they're not at very convenient times.
So I can talk to you about that offline sometime.
Okay.
But it's much less flexible visiting policy than the other place,
which is pretty inflexible in itself.
Right.
Well, we just found out that they had terminated all visits
that took place on Sundays,
which is when we were going down to visit you,
with no notice at all.
They just said, this is the last one.
We're not going to have any more of these.
So that was...
...schedule where, like, about once a month,
it happens to land on a weekend, which is good.
But the good thing is the visits are,
you can have up to three people for up to two hours.
So that's a plus.
But they're often at inconvenient times.
Whether I'm going to be transferred back to the other facility,
retraded back again or not, I'm not sure.
Well, odds are, if you request that, you won't get it, right?
I requested that I not be transferred in the first place,
but apparently my attorney did not contact the judge's chambers
as we'd agreed.
Apparently there was a miscommunication and so forth.
So it made me that that's the reason I was transferred,
that apparently the judge of my fencing
thought that I had family in Bucks County,
which I don't at all.
But under that belief,
maybe the judge thought he was doing me a favor by sending me here.
Although the paperwork said there was an agreement between wardens,
and it also had the term protective custody on there,
which concerned me because the phrase protective custody
has a very negative connotation in the prison culture.
It's usually reserved for inmates who are snitches or stool pigeons
or inmates who have done something particularly heinous
like sexual abuse of children, that sort of thing.
Those inmates are generally put into protective custody
so they don't get killed by other inmates.
And I don't fall into either of those categories, obviously.
So I don't know why it said protective custody on there.
I didn't want the word to get around
that I was here for protective custody reasons
because people would think I was one of those types of people,
and I'm not.
So it's very strange.
I don't know really why I'm here.
Well, we never really understood
why you were in prison in the first place,
but that's a whole other issue.
Do you have an address that we could tell people to send you mail now?
A new address.
I'm sorry, what did you say?
Do you have a new address that you can give us?
Yeah, let me give that.
I just got it a few minutes ago from one of the guards.
I can now apparently receive books and magazines
which were prohibited at the other Northampton County prison, strangely enough.
This place might be a little more progressive
if they allow inmates to read.
They'll consider that a dangerous activity.
But the address here is Bucks County Prison, 1730 South Easton Road,
that's E-A-S-T-O-N Road,
in Doylestown,
T-S-O-Y-L-E-S-T-O-W-N-P-A,
1-8-9-0-1.
And you should put somewhere on the envelope,
we'll package, attention,
Ed Cummings,
D-19,
he is in David,
19, that's my cell number.
So anybody that can send me any books or magazines
or something to read,
I'd appreciate it a lot
because it's very boring in this place.
All I have to read is
the Inmate Regulations Handbook
that was given to me when I came in
and an interesting book
called Inmates and Officers,
Aids and Prisons,
The Facts.
There's a lot of advice in here
how not to get aids in prison.
So I'll try to follow those instructions.
Well, yeah,
not being in prison is one good way.
It's so noisy here,
it's terrible.
You're going to have to repeat yourself.
Well, now,
let me ask,
is there a chance
that you'll get better health care
where you are now
because as we know
you weren't getting...
A better health care
because as we know
you weren't getting
any treatment whatsoever.
Apparently there is.
The other place is
very poorly managed
from a health care standpoint.
They had a private company
running a health
and medical care
at the other facility.
They only had
nurses' aides there
and once in a few days
a doctor would stop by
if anybody was really,
really sick.
So this place apparently
has several registered nurses,
RNs on staff
which is a positive
and also they're nicer
to look at too
than the other.
So that means a lot
when you're in here.
So that's a positive.
I asked about getting
physical therapy on my elbow
which I was not permitted
to receive.
I broke my elbow
about a year ago
and severely fractured
and was receiving
physical therapy
three times a week
before I was incarcerated
but denied that
physical therapy
in both the federal prison
and Northampton County prison
and Delaware County prison
where I was initially.
This place apparently
can offer me that
but they seem very concerned
that I didn't have
health insurance anymore.
Apparently they're reluctant
to pay for this
physical therapy.
So I'll see what I can do.
I hope I can get it
because I only have
about half the use
of my left arm
because of the injury
and I'd like to get
some of that back
but it's really up
to seeing a physical therapist.
Well, this is certainly
interesting news.
You know, we never know
what to expect next
from this case
which has been going on
now for over a year
and hopefully
it looks like it'll be over
sometime in June.
Is that what we're
looking at right now?
Well, I'm not holding
my breath.
I saw this paperwork today
that said that my
official release date
should be July 12th
but that was apparently
not considering
41 days of time
served last year
in a county facility
for the initial charges
that were filed against
me last year
in Pennsylvania
which were subsequently
dropped when Secret Service
started charging me
with a new federal
anti-hacking law.
And the judge
at my sentencing
I believe he said
I should receive credit
for that time
but I don't think
the prison is aware
of it yet
so I spoke with my
attorney today
who's trying to make sure
that I get credit
for that 41 days
so I'm going to have
to spend an extra
41 days here.
The earliest I could
get out of here
if I get that 41 days
of credit
would be May 30th
which I could deal
with that.
Since my sentence
is a 6 to 24 month sentence
there's a possibility
that I could be held here
for the duration
for all 24 months
which means I wouldn't
get out of here
until early 1998
which would be
very depressing.
So it's really up
to the state parole board
and apparently
they're very backed
up with cases now
because of an unfortunate
incident last year
where a Pennsylvania
state parolee
allegedly killed
a New Jersey
state trooper
and since then
the state parole board
has been very reluctant
to parole anyone
on a minimum date
which had been
the usual policy
but since last August
when that tragedy
occurred
no one has been released
on a minimum date
people are staying here
months and months
longer than they expected.
That's just unbelievable.
It just keeps
your luck keeps getting
worse and worse
every time we hear something.
Well even non-violent
inmates are apparently
having their sentences
extended by months
because of this
backlog.
The Pennsylvania
state prisons
are very overcrowded
or well over capacity.
People sleeping on the floors
in the hallways
I hear.
but this is a county facility
it doesn't appear to be
although it seems
to be filled to capacity
it doesn't be filled
over to capacity.
There were no empty cells
when I got here
except the one
I was moved into.
I am now rooming
with another inmate
at North Hatton County Prison.
I had a 5x8 cell
to myself.
This cell is a bit larger
but there's bunk beds in it.
Unfortunately
it doesn't speak English.
That's all.
Well speaking of
the sentencing though
you were telling me
the other night
about how somebody else
was sentenced to
I think it was
three months
to 20
or something like that
for a much
let's just say
a much different crime
than yours.
Yeah just a few weeks
before I was
excuse me
I'm still not over
this prison flu
that I picked up
here over a month ago.
Yeah just
truly before I was sentenced
I looked at
the local newspaper
in Eastern Pennsylvania
to see what
comparable sentences
were being handed out
to other people
and
trying to get an idea
to get an idea
of what I might get
based on these other sentences
and one individual
who was convicted
of aggravated assault
who admitted
to repeatedly
stabbing someone
and threatening
to shoot him
was
sentenced
to three
to 23 months
in county prison
and other charges
were dropped
against him
such as
attempted murder
things like that
they were dropped
for some reason.
so he got
three to 23 months
so he could be out
in three months
and he repeatedly
stabbed someone
and threatened
to shoot them.
I finally
rooted that
I would have been
much better off
if I had done
something like
stabbed somebody
than just possessed
commonly available
hardware or software
because he got
in a lesser sentence.
So go figure
I don't understand it
but it seems to be
the fact that
the Secret Service
has been pushing
this prosecution
beyond the bounds
of any reason.
Well I mean
it just goes to show
when you have
the Secret Service
acting against you
it sure means a lot
to a lot of local courts.
Before I get into
something else
that's happening
let me just ask
is there a limit
on this phone call?
There doesn't seem
to be a 15 minute limit
do you know if there is?
Actually these calls
don't seem to be
limited to any amount
of time.
Okay that's good.
That's good then.
If we do get cut off
I'll try to call back.
Okay but it did have
that little warning
about three-way
I'm just worried
if we start taking calls
that might be a problem.
Well you can try it.
I'm not sure
if SS7 transfers
the signal
that a three-way call
has been connected
to the other end.
Well I guess
this is one way
to find out.
Let's find out.
Okay we'll find out
in a couple of minutes.
Our phone number
is 212-279-3400
if anybody has
any questions
comments
or you know
things on other
subjects as well.
We're not just
talking about this tonight
we're just updating
people on the subject.
But as far as
the Secret Service
happenings
we mentioned
our website
last week
in fact if you come
down to the
At Cafe after the show
tonight you'll have
a chance to see it
you know that way
you don't have to
actually do it yourself
you can actually
see from a distance.
But over
I believe it's over
7,000 people now
over 8,000 people
have accessed
the Secret Service
website
at www.2600.com
and basically
what we've done
there is we've
we've put all
the information
that Bernie S
was accused
of having
which proved
that he was
such a dangerous
individual
things like
a list of offices
a list of frequencies
a list of code names
various things like that
that are available
publicly.
Now we had some
interesting press coverage
over the past week
including an article
in Newsday
where there was a
comment from
the Secret Service
now it started
off through the
Secret Service
Edward Cummings
is a law-breaking
phone hacker
who has pleaded
guilty to possession
of illegal telephone
devices and tampering
with evidence
and deserves to be
imprisoned
however when they
were contacted
about the website
they said
that none of the
material on it
is secret or
illegal
this is according
to Ernest Kuhn
the head of the
Philadelphia office
of the Secret Service
he said
Secret Service
frequencies are
publicly available
now this is
fascinating that
they would say this
because at every
hearing that I've
witnessed and at
every hearing that
you've been at
they have used that
as the primary
evidence as to why
you are a dangerous
person because you
possessed this
information
in fact Tom Varney
even said the
Secret Service agent
whose job it is to
persecute you
he even said
that the frequencies
that you had were
restricted frequencies
now what we are
going to do is we
are obtaining the
court transcripts
and we're going to
line those up side
by side with what
this guy said
and we're going
to ask them
who is right
here which one
of you is lying
because one of
you is either
incompetent or
you're lying
which is it
you know if
somebody in jail
now because of
this we'd like
to know what
your policy is
are the frequencies
restricted or are
they public
you know just
give us a straight
answer
yeah it is
interesting because
that was the
first thing that
this guy always
brought up when
he was trying to
discredit my
character that I
had this list of
I remember him
first starting out
with his litany
of harmful
information that
I had which
testified in
calling me
dangerous that
I had codenames
used by the
secret service
for protecting
the president
and restricted
radio frequencies
used by the
secret service
for protecting
the president
which were
simply magazine
articles in
monitoring times
magazine which
I've subscribed to
for the past 15
years I think
since it came out
and is available
in many books
that it can be
purchased from
various companies
and most bookstores
sell books for
scanner users
where they can
program these
frequencies and
address it to
them what's
also interesting
is that if the
secret service
is so concerned
about people
having these
frequencies which
are so publicly
available they
have the technology
and they have the
equipment and they
do use this
equipment to encrypt
their conversations
over these
frequencies so even
if you have these
frequencies they
don't say anything
I would think that
they wouldn't be
stupid enough to
say anything sensitive
over the open
frequencies and
would use their
encryption technology
to talk about the
secure things like
protecting the
president I think
that should be
secure I don't
think that people
should be able to
listen to the
stuff that's truly
important to
protecting the
president I think
that is risky
if the chance
exists though that
they have trouble
with that they
can always call us
and ask us how
to use it and
we'll be happy to
help them we
will really now
this is let's see
I have some more
information we've
been getting all
kinds of listener
and reader feedback
to the website all
kinds of mail people
contributing bits of
information corrections
things like that so
that's that's really
kind of neat if you
want to contribute
anything the address
the email address is
secret s s-e-c-r-e-t-s
at 2600.com and
that's if you want to
update the site at
all and of course
if you want to look
at the site www.2600.com
here's here's one
piece of mail we got
I can attribute a u.s
plane crash in
carolton georgia last
year to evil in the
u.s secret service and
furnish written proof
this is part of the
divine curse on the
infidel usss well
that's just one
example of the many
bits of information
that we're getting
and we look into
them all because they
all tell a story of
some sort
i read there was a
local newspaper article
that's uh covering my
sentencing hearing that
stated that the secret
service claimed that i
had sent an electronic
mail to hillary clinton
and to president clinton
while i was in federal
prison last year which i
thought was pretty
interesting because i
didn't have any access
to computers or or uh
unmonited phone lines or
anything like that at
federal prison yeah well
tom barney was starting
to say something like that
at your last hearing he
said that the president of
the united states got a
letter and i don't know
how you could be
responsible for that or
how you could uh you
know even uh be
connected to that in any
way if somebody sent a
letter i thought it was
unusual because i i've
never sent any electronic
mail to to either the
president or his wife in
my life apparently they
were finally calling saying
that i was somehow
responsible for other
people sending electronic
mail to we didn't say
what this mail consisted of
it was probably um pretty
mundane but but the man
tended to try to phrase
things in so ominous tones
that it sounded like it
was dangerous without it
really being dangerous
well to the judge's credit
i think he dismissed most
of what the secret
service was saying on that
level uh however i i don't
think he understood the
technical aspects of your
case which is why you're
still locked up now
the biggest the biggest
misconception that seems to
still uh go unnoticed in
in all these court hearings
was that uh the judge
repeatedly stated that uh i
had software that allows me
to the left that could have
allowed me to steal cellular
telephone servers from other
people but one i've never
done that in my life i have
no interest in doing that
um the software i had allowed
people to clone or program
extensions of their own
cellular phones in no way
enabled anyone to obtain or
steal other people's electronic
serial numbers or mobile
identification numbers which is a
crucial thing if somebody
were were intending to commit
fraud i didn't possess any
electronic serial numbers or
mobile telephone numbers that
were capable of being used
fraudulently and uh none of
the equipment i had was
programmed with uh with any
any numbers that could have
been used illegally yet uh this
software is being bandied about
as something that's very evil
and in fact it can't in and of
itself be used illegally so i'm
concerned about other types of
software which which might be put
on this list almost anything
could be put on the list
right almost anything could be
put on the list depending on
what the agenda is of the
people who are prosecuting you
and in this particular case the
agenda seems to have been to
protect phone companies and uh
and send a chilling message to
the rest of us so you know we've
gotten the message but it's not
really uh gonna meet with the
reaction they expected uh lots and
lots of people have found out
about this and they're angry they
want to know why things like
this can happen in this country
after all we had somebody in
kentucky who was accused of
something even even greater than
what you were accused of
actually selling a device which
could clone phones but there are
legitimate purposes for such
devices he fought the uh the
actual uh statute uh he fought
the he pleaded not guilty to
violating that particular law and a
jury found him not guilty and he
was guilty of uh he was accused
rather of even more than what you
were accused of so he could have
been found guilty of of much
more but he fought it and he was
found not guilty and he is not in
prison right now i think that's a
very interesting fact that needs to
be brought up quite a bit um okay
we're gonna take some phone calls
two and two two seven nine three
four hundred uh first before we
start let me just say i'm aware of
certain things that are going on
out there people stop me in the
street today you know they don't
even say hello anymore they just
say hey what's up with the phone
bills and you know i'm always happy
to talk about these kind of things
but uh you know i'm not i'm not the
person responsible so don't be
angry at me i didn't do it i had
nothing to do with this this is
something that sort of caught a lot
of us by surprise okay we didn't
even know about it last week it just
started happening this week and
that's the deal with 9x and their uh
well i mean you've seen the
commercials where they basically tell
you to uh you know don't think
about it just just stay with us okay
you'll be happy if you stay with us
we can we can you know make things
easier on you and don't listen to
those other companies when it comes
to regional calling okay fine
whatever but now it turns out
that um that they're sort of uh
making it a bit uh more difficult
for you to stay with those other
companies i've heard all kinds of
reports from people over the past
few days that they're getting their
phone bills and lo and behold the
long distance portions are missing
there are no long distance portions
on the phone bills anymore and
apparently what's what's happening
is that 9x and i'm not sure if this
is true i'm not sure if the official
policy is because i have not seen any
any releases on this at all but
apparently 9x has stopped acting as
the billing agent for the long
distance companies and what that
means is that you'll get a separate
phone bill for every single long
distance company that you use
so that means a minimum of two bills
for the same phone number assuming
you make any long distance calls at
all uh to i mean i didn't want to
think about how many phone bills you
could be getting now for the same
phone number it's uh it's pretty
incredible but that's uh that's part
of the um uh the progress i guess
we're engaged in right now so uh
that's really all we know right now
that 9x is uh is is sort of changing
things a little bit uh we can try and
and get an operator on the phone and
ask them if there's any uh any truth to
this but of course if we do that
bernie we'll lose you so let's take
some phone calls first and see if
maybe any of our listeners can uh uh
can shed some light on this of course
there's also the chance as soon as we
connect to the uh the other listeners
out there that uh you know we might
lose you right away you're you're
aware of that risk are you not okay so
we're going into this uh willfully and
without regret and if we don't hear
from you again tonight bernie we will
hear from you next week but let's hope
that you stay on okay all right here
we go good evening you're on the air
hi how you doing hi oh well i'm okay
but i just feel like uh you know tears
come to my eyes every time i hear
about bernie is he still there i'm
here oh wow wow that's great um i was
wondering two things bernie uh number
one last week your nurses wouldn't even
look at you but are you
can you speak a little more slowly and
a little louder okay
are you allowed to get vitamins sent to
you can i send vitamins because they're
not medication well i would it would
seem logical that i would be able to
receive them unfortunately um they're not
allowed in here apparently uh there's a
policy of not accepting any anything that
can be ingested i'm not even allowed to
receive postage stamps from people oh
so uh what they apparently the uh the my keepers seem their captors rather seem to think that people could put to put drugs in in vitamins and you know they could put drops of lsp on a vitamin tablet or something along those lines and they're not taking any chances
plus there's probably a profit incentive too right um they do sell these things in the prison commissary assuming people have money oh um at pretty exorbitant prices they sell uh pretty poor vitamins but you know if you have you have a captive market here you could say
uh they stand to make some money by selling all this stuff to the inmates and they'd rather uh sell it to them themselves and have more control over it than allow other people to send things in
i i it's a valid concern i can see them wanting to keep drugs from being sent in well yeah i understand but i mean if you if you can't get if they're not giving you proper medication i just thought it would be
that if i even sent it uh to to uh to them sealed but then i wouldn't trust what they would then do so
well anyway if you really want to send any vitamins what you could do and i'm i'm not soliciting money from anyone but if it's something you want to do
yes you can send a money order yes i think it has to be a postal money order to that address with my name on it
okay i can certainly and then that would be put in my commissary account with which i could buy vitamins
that was another question i had can i i'm i'm don't misunderstand me i'm not asking anyone to send
me money i know i know i know i've known various uh people and my sister was uh in uh well i won't say
but in a similar situation they took all of her equipment away and i had an account set up for her
they took her computer away from her and yeah she had recipes on her computer um i'll let other listeners
go ahead one one other question um your lawyer is who who is your you have a lawyer doing anything
for you yes i do unfortunately my case i started out with a with a lawyer who was pretty inept and
had convinced me that he was familiar with how federal courts worked and it turns out he had
little or no experience in federal courts so much like my case became pretty far advanced before i
realized this guy was a real bozo and and uh i won't name him on the air but i i finally got a
very good attorney after that um but it was a problem getting uh getting the funding to uh to
retain him finally uh he agreed to take a lesser fee and he's a very good attorney his name's kenneth
trujillo uh in philadelphia he's a former federal prosecutor himself but a lot of this stuff is really
out of his hands what the uh what the prisons do with me and what uh you're really up to the mercy
of the judges here now his his strategy in my case was to advise me to be guilty to the charge i know
yes investing the hardware and software i was never charged with using any of this stuff illegally which
is ironic i wasn't charged with committing any fraud i was just charging with having stuff that's
commonly available at any radio shack store or available over the internet um and with the intent
of the fraud and the government's definition of intent is just simply knowing that it can be used
fraudulently so i didn't think that was a fair law my attorney didn't think so either having
been the former federal prosecutor himself he thought my chances of of going before a jury
would not be good because the jury's job is not to decide whether the law itself is fair or not but to
right whether i'm guilty of the letter of the law or not and i was i had this hardware and software
and didn't deny it um in fact the hardware and software was not no even not even a law making it
illegal to possess this stuff a few weeks before i was charged with it the brand number first person
in the country charged with this crazy law my attorney argued that i should make a special type
of plea that he arranged with the government called a zudic plea which would allow me to withdraw my
guilty plea to challenge to appeal and challenge the unconstitutional vagueness of this new statute
right the constitution says that the law has to be specific it cannot be vague but this law doesn't
doesn't define a lot of terms like uh what a telecommunications instrument is it doesn't define
the words modified or altered or even a phrase unauthorized use or unauthorized access it doesn't
define who who does the authorize right right all these things are up in the air and uh it's such a
vague statute it can be applied so broadly to virtually anyone who has a computer if a secret service
desires to that uh one i would like very much to get this law turned over not only to reverse my
own conviction to prevent anybody else from going through this same nightmare that i had over the
past year so uh hopefully this federal tale which is going to be heard later this year will be
successful i won't get the year of my life back or the thirty thousand dollars in legal fees or
or all the trauma i've gone through won't get that reversed but um i'll be very satisfied if this
law gets repealed now i'm not optimistic about what the congress may replace it with but uh but i won't be uh
i won't be branded a felon anymore and i'll be allowed to vote i'm not allowed to vote anymore
as a convicted felon i'm just saying i don't know what voting has to do with i i i um i understand
all that this is this something you are actively can do it can be working on right now or where it
can be working on or do you have to wait for your next uh paroles or date or trial you know the next
time you're up for something to prevent the repeal that's the very disheartening aspect about all this
the whole time i was in federal prison last year it wasn't until the last few days when i until i knew when i
was going to finally get out there was this endless how much longer is this going to go on
and it's the same thing happening here i was given a six to 24 month sentence which the six months will
be up in the end of may ostensibly but uh there's no guarantee it'll be over then i could be here till
1998 it's all up to the state parole board and it's very hard for you to fight this kind of a thing if uh
if you're stuck in prison so uh obviously uh you getting out is is uh is paramount as far as that
particular struggle goes i want to thank you for the call we're going to move on to uh to another
call hopefully we won't lose bernie when we hit this button here uh he's still there you're still
there right i'm here good okay let's take another one good evening you're on the air how you doing
on the air yes you are um i'd like to talk about bill clinton's white bill have you ever heard of that
bill clinton's white bill uh i'm not sure i know what you mean copyright law okay um i read it in a
wired a while ago what it's about is no singing the song in the shower that wouldn't be any violation
of copyright laws okay well what this new law would be would it would be saying that doing things close
to that like typing a passage from a book into your computer and storing it in random access memory
would be a violation of copyright laws that's what that's what the bill says now is what you're saying
yes i read it on one sec i have the wired out somewhere around here i'm going to try to find it
so i can tell you the date of it okay well anyway i just want to say i think this is absolutely
outrageous yeah i i agree with you i'm sure i'm sure most people have used the system the system
on the internet something from a book to share with a friend right to show someone would be a violation
of laws supposedly he's doing this to uh get support for the voters in the next election from the big uh
boys in uh commercial business so uh-huh i just want to say that well you know it's as
unrealistic as as expecting people to pay thousands of dollars for a computer program which can be
copied very easily you know obviously uh people are not in the in the position of being able to do
things like that and what what you're seeing are laws being passed that simply think of big business
and don't think of individuals i know it's the copy the copyright laws they have no i think are
outrageous and do you have anything more in the law about the movie production production the patent um
well now you know that that was way back right that was like 1900 1910 but basically it was a
consortium of um of the very early directors uh edwin s porter uh uh tom edison people like that
uh that got together and and kind of uh produced a stranglehold on the industry saying that you have
to register your films with us you cannot even shoot something uh unless you you get permission from
us and you certainly can't distribute it because we own all the projectors and all the movie houses
and etc etc and uh you know it worked for a while there were a few rebels that uh that went against
the quote-unquote law back then but uh up until around 1917 it was really really hard to make a film
unless you were in with these people and eventually you know creative control won and uh that was sort of
cast aside i think it's funny that that nobody remembers that uh you know that little bit of history
because that's uh that's certainly a parallel to what's going on today in the computer industry
oh i'd like to know um is ed coming still there yes i'm still here all right have you read hackers
by steven levy yeah i read it several years ago it was a pretty good book oh because i'm i got all
these books flying around in you know if you're stuck in on a few occasions too um but uh yeah i found
it an amusing book why do you ask i don't know because i'm stuck here in my room with tons of reading
things that i've read several times and you know if you're stuck there without anything to do oh
well thanks anyway um if you want to mail me a copy it'd be great to read it again i think the last
time i read it was about 10 years ago but um sure um i imagine the other uh inmate here who's who's
interested in hacking would uh would love to read it as well so it probably has so uh you have the
address i guess if you want to mail me a copy and i think it's available in paperback is it i have the
original version i am uh i lost it a while ago when i was taking it from my library and i paid
for it so i guess it's mine now isn't it yeah i guess so i guess i guess you bought that um but
yeah that's that'd be very nice that'd be very helpful uh for for anyone else to say something to
all the little yeah people are just getting into hacking about viruses and everything i think these
things people are getting a really bad image of hackers for absolutely no reason at all
uh-huh a lot of people running around there just destroying people's computers saying they're
hackers without any knowledge of any hacker ethics at all which is i think it's really bad for the
rest of us yes i i totally agree with that and at 2600 we get all kinds of people that send us email
and call us on the phone and things like that thinking that they're hackers because they can figure
out how to wipe out a system or completely cause mayhem and uh usually they just want quick answers
they don't want to know how to do things hacking is knowing how to do something it's not just getting
an answer from some shortcut someplace and then executing a you know a file and saying hey that
makes me a hacker that's that's nothing to do with it now this makes you somebody impatient that just
wants to cause damage i know i think the government would like to make the public believe that uh all
hackers are criminals where in fact maybe some hackers are criminals but the vast majority are not they're
they're just curious people really true hackers they try to improve systems if they can find
rules and things they help them so they're not there anymore i think i think probably a more
accurate way of saying it is that while some some hackers may be criminals a lot of criminals want to
be hackers i mean a good bumper sticker wouldn't it yeah why don't you print out some of those i think
maybe i will it's a lot a bit wordy for a bumper sticker but we'll see what we can do
so anything else caller no that will be all okay thanks for your call okay bye take care
oh sometimes i think there's hope for the future who knows good evening you're on the air
hello go ahead yes uh emmanuel i've been trying to get through to you for quite some time well you've
succeeded um i just need some advice and uh information i'm a new person to the internet i'm
going to be uh getting myself hooked up and i'm looking for information and advice from someone who i trust
like you on what are some good service providers to use if you can recommend or suggest uh how to um
connect to the internet as far as what service providers might be good value or provide good service
etc etc i'm in new jersey northern new jersey okay um i know panics has a dial up in in new jersey
uh you might i don't have their number handy but they're listed in the new york phone book
so p-a-n-i-x yeah um that's one any others i guess not uh well no others come to mind at the
at the top of our heads but if we find others we'll certainly let you know um but that's that's
you know one one of many i'm sure there there are lots of what makes them a good one well i like
panics because they're they're very competent you know whenever something happens if if their lights
flicker for like a minute they post it on a message of the day and they tell you exactly what happened
and how long it lasted and when it was fixed and why it happened and whose fault it was you know i like
that kind of accountability it's also the kind of system where you just get the feeling that the
people running it know what they're doing and also uh i don't think i've ever had a system i hope this
doesn't sound like a commercial because i use lots of different uh service providers and this
just happens to be you know one i'm talking about right now but uh panics has a very fast connection
to news like you type uh you type tin to get into news and whammo right right away you're there you
know you're reading news from your particular news group and that's what i hope to see all of the
internet become but usually it's about a two minute wait you know because there's so many news
groups to go through okay here's another one i just got i just got the silicon super network
corporation i guess that's ssn uh and um you can reach them is this their phone number or is this
this person's phone number well okay i think it's their number uh 201-461-7373 that's a voice number
four six one seven three seven three yeah that's that's one in new jersey how how do the prices range
on these that i don't have information on that okay but uh shop around i'm sure you'll you'll find lots
of different ones okay okay i don't have any further info like that i'd appreciate if you could
pass it on over the air okay anybody anybody else who calls in i'm sure if they have information on
northern new jersey providers they'll let us know okay thanks thanks for calling thanks a lot okay
and uh bernie you know you still have to get you on the net obviously people can write to you on the
net but uh you know you can't get on the net from where you are now once you get out though
the computer here but actually if somebody wants to send the uh mail at uh bernie that's uh bernie
asset 2600.com um maybe you'd be kind enough to uh mail it to me absolutely uh now what i'd even be
happy if you or someone else has the time or wants to have the inclination to take my my handwritten
replies and to you know type them into a computer that i don't have access to that'd be great i'd be
glad to correspond with people on the net um in uh in that manner sure we could we could definitely
do something like that but one thing i think which is important is that when you do get out
you have some way of of communicating with people on the net so hopefully we can find a provider down
in the philadelphia area which is where you're from uh that will donate an account maybe somebody
has an old 286 or something lying around that they can uh they can free up and send down to uh to
bernie so he can uh you know come back onto the net actually you've never really been on the net have you
well on and off um on using friends accounts with their permission that sort of thing but
but uh i haven't been over on the internet obviously for over a year because i've been
in prison for the past year for the most part so um i definitely want to get out a lot has changed
since i got locked up in march of last year you know the internet has uh become a a much bigger thing
than uh than any of us imagined and there's a lot there's a lot of uh a lot of words you can't use
on the internet anymore so you have to be very careful you can't use any cuss words you know
they've made a few silly laws that are being challenged right now and don't even think about
talking about abortion on the net just that's that's a real uh a real negative thing but yeah
there's all kinds of fighting about various things going on uh on the net but fortunately the net itself
is the forum uh that's being used to to spread information around and when you have
a forum of that magnitude i find that the individuals always win you know individual
thought is always a lot more clever than corporate thought the publicity may have helped in my uh my
recent sentencing i feared that i might have gotten even more severe sentence instead of uh
six to 24 months i could have gotten uh 12 to 24 months and uh i spoke with a county employee who
told me he'd run into a county probation officer who told him that the judge in my case told the
probation officer that he didn't think he could justify uh any more severe a sentence because of
all the news coverage that this case had generated so i was very heartened to hear that i was very
concerned that all the publicity would actually hurt me and anger the secret service even more but uh
i'm beginning to realize that the publicity may be more helpful than harmful and i hope it continues that
way yes i i always thought you know publicity of a of a positive kind is a good thing even if they get
some uh you know some of the facts wrong like the news day article uh listed you as 35 living in
reading of which you're neither uh you've never been to reading in your life i don't know how they
managed to to have you a native of that particular town but that's okay you know it's a little facts
you expect newspapers to get wrong i don't even know where they got that because reading i was never
even mentioned anything to do with my case at all maybe this whole thing is a big misunderstanding
and there's another ed cummings from reading as a real evil person you know i'll i'll check that angle
of it but please do the other thing the other thing that i think uh really helped from publicity
was that rather disturbing rumor going around the prison that you were a a cop when when you were
first uh brought into the system and of course when newspaper articles started showing up uh saying
how you were unjustly put in prison and things like that that got around to some of the inmates
and they realized that hey this guy is a real you know bad person so that that actually helped
you in that particular situation they realized uh or at least they uh they believed i was i was uh
one of them once they read that uh uh the secret service uh had labeled me as one step above a
terrorist so uh then then i was accepted with open arms well yes i guess they give you a wide berth
at that particular which is fine you know that's uh that's what you have to do when you're in a
situation like that let's see if we can fit in one or two more phone calls good evening you're on
hello yes go ahead yes i have a question for uh actually some advice for bernie and uh a question
on online businesses okay go ahead go ahead yes oh yes uh turn down your radio you'll get very confused
okay bernie yes in your interest uh the more people that can uh write directly to the warden
you'll find very helpful i remember when some people were at the uh metropolitan correctional institute
there was a uh warden there uh who was uh probably trained uh at the bastille during the french revolution
he was uh very harsh very inhumane and when enough letters descended on the uh institute
uh he changed his ways uh when they become aware that you're a prized prisoner uh they tend to
treat you a lot differently differently as in better or worse better oh well that's good i don't even
truly i don't know the name of the warden at this prison since i was just transferred here today i
don't know who he is well as soon as you can uh please let people know honestly i i wouldn't want
to put the warden to be bothered unless or well not bothered but just unless i saw i was being
mistreated here which really hasn't happened yet i've had oh okay i've had guards bark insults at me
but it wasn't a personal thing and they do that to everybody well you've only been there for about
12 hours though i'm not holding my breath that i'm not going to be mistreated but you know the
potential exists but if it if it happens i'll i'll make you first aware of it and if uh you want to
contact the warden then i think it's a good idea definitely no sense in uh aggravating the guy for
something that hasn't occurred yet true read that's a good suggestion now yeah i'll keep it in
mind uh you had one other question yeah about online businesses uh do you have any info on that
is the new york pc uh helpful in that area or do you know anybody else well it depends what what what
you're after what do you mean online business well basically a service business uh you know there
are people that do uh information research uh provide services whatever sort of setting up a business
that you would uh basically uh do online uh part-time at home uh-huh well i mean it's certainly
it's certainly okay you can certainly do things like that uh are you just looking for a place where
you can get advice on how to do that yeah exactly uh yeah i i think the new york uh amateur pc club is
that what what you're referring to yeah they'd be a good they'd be a good uh a good source for that
okay good enough all right best of luck bernie thanks for calling hi okay let's see if we can uh
squeeze in another one good evening you're on the air somebody there uh we're on the air am i on the
air yes you are i didn't want to be on the air well then you got your wish good evening you're on the
air hi hold on i just have to turn the radio lower okay okay just waiting for her to turn the radio
down a little lower okay go ahead okay hi bernie hi hi everybody who's this mary lynn doesn't matter
who i am i was just i was just thinking um when you befriend people in prison maybe you might think
twice before you say can you speak up i can barely hear you okay regarding your new friend in prison
yes i don't know i just had a thought for whatever it's worth maybe maybe you ought not to be talking
too much to him because maybe he's not quite the friend he might be oh you think you think he's like
a plant of some sort well if he walked up to you maybe he is oh actually that's been a concern of
mine since this began especially in the butter prison i was warned by other inmates to
to be aware of uh informants they're posing as other inmates okay well he didn't really approach
him i was i was standing next to him it just sort of came up um before i would there's really nothing
incriminating i i could say to hurt myself because i know but but you did probably didn't do anything
really to hurt yourself to get in there so that's true you know so the biggest concern that inmates
have about informants in prison is that not that they'll be quoted but they'll be misquoted right
that's what i'm so you know when somebody's looking for something they find it well not
only that but uh you watch nowhere man don't you i can tell no i just had a hard time with my boss
today okay i really feel better about learning i appreciate the warning and advice well for what
i would talk in depth with this guy certainly would uh would make sure i see his credentials i i would
i would never even bother thinking about it i just wouldn't share thanks a lot okay i mean i would share
myself as a loving friend but not as a as a you know the kind of things that he might look for
thank you apparently this guy has uh has many friends in new york who may be listening right
now he goes by the name mason wall and uh well maybe he's a wonderful guy and a great friend
yeah okay he's a comedian also i hope he keeps a sense of his friendship okay all right thanks thanks
for the call thanks and good luck to you take care bye okay uh we're gonna be right back right
after this announcement
wbai's computer folks are having a website celebration on tuesday march 19th from 8 30 till
midnight at the at cafe on saint mark's place between second avenue and third avenue
come by and meet emmanuel goldstein fiber optic dave burstein jim freund and some of your other
favorite wbai voices there'll be continuous demonstrations of what's interesting on the net
and we'd love it if you made a voluntary donation to the wbai website but we won't turn you away if
you're broke so come on by to the website celebration on tuesday march 19th from 8 30 till midnight at the
at cafe on saint mark's place between second avenue and third avenue or call us at 212-279-0707 extension
122 and let us know you're coming to the wbai 99.5 fm website celebration
and uh you know that's tonight that's happening right now even as we speak and in fact all of us
are standing up right now and we're heading right down there so if you want to have some fun come and
join us at the at cafe because that's where we're all going to be you can see the secret service website
for yourself which we'll be connecting to this is emmanuel goldstein for bernie s uh say good night
bernie good night bernie all right and we'll uh we'll hopefully talk to you next week um stay well
all right and uh we'll update people on your situation we'll see you down at the at cafe
we'll be back again next week for another edition of off the hook good night
this is
in
Thank you.
Thank you.