[00:02.300 --> 00:05.580]  Join the campaign to stop police brutality.
[00:06.060 --> 00:12.880]  Wake Up Call and some of its loyal listeners have come up with an action that everyone can participate in.
[00:13.260 --> 00:20.740]  If you are against police brutality and state-sponsored murders, wear a black ribbon as an act of protest.
[00:20.740 --> 00:44.880]  Inform your family, your neighbors, your co-workers, your church, and your school that this is being done in memory of Achmed Diallo, Patrick Bailey, Eleanor Bumpers, Anthony Baez, Yvonne Smallwood, Kevin Sedano, Elizabeth Mangum, Clifford Glover, Randy Evans,
[00:45.420 --> 00:46.880]  Nicholas Ashanti Barton.
[00:58.330 --> 01:01.270]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York.
[02:22.290 --> 02:24.650]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI.
[02:24.750 --> 02:25.950]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:26.210 --> 02:38.670]  And this is not going to be your typical edition of Off the Hook as this is probably, I think I say this without any fear of contradiction, probably the saddest day in the history of this radio station.
[02:39.910 --> 03:02.010]  Talking of the people who are joining us over the internet who might not know, this morning we lost our program director, Samori Marksman, someone who I would have to say is probably the most educated, the most influential person as far as waking people up in this city to events both local and international on scale.
[03:02.010 --> 03:17.470]  I say that one of the main reasons that this radio program has remained where it is, this program about technology, about the future, why it was so important to keep shows like this going, it was because of Samori's vision.
[03:18.690 --> 03:23.610]  And we're certainly going to be at a loss to fill those shoes.
[03:23.750 --> 03:25.330]  Dave Burstein joins me here.
[03:25.450 --> 03:28.510]  He's from the Personal Computer Show, which airs on Wednesday nights.
[03:28.510 --> 03:29.550]  We used to be neighbors, in fact.
[03:29.710 --> 03:31.830]  We used to air one right after the other.
[03:32.010 --> 03:34.690]  That was a great thing, and we should work together more.
[03:34.890 --> 03:35.510]  Yeah, yeah.
[03:35.690 --> 03:37.570]  And this has really brought people together.
[03:37.570 --> 03:43.330]  The station is filled with people tonight, remembering Samori for the great man he was.
[03:43.490 --> 03:45.650]  I just can't believe that this has happened.
[03:45.690 --> 04:00.130]  I found out this afternoon as I was preparing to come in, and I was listening this afternoon to all the tributes, which, by the way, we are in the process of getting up on the internet for people who might not be as familiar with the station as the people here in New York.
[04:00.330 --> 04:01.250]  Shall I give the address?
[04:01.750 --> 04:04.170]  Yeah, it won't be there right now, but it will be.
[04:04.310 --> 04:04.850]  So, yeah, go ahead.
[04:05.270 --> 04:05.590]  Okay.
[04:05.750 --> 04:10.890]  As soon as internet gets it together, it's going to be at samori, S-A-M-O-R-I dot net.
[04:11.130 --> 04:12.610]  That may take a day or two.
[04:12.810 --> 04:17.750]  So, until then, I just threw it up at a site I had, dslprime.com.
[04:17.850 --> 04:20.870]  That's dslprime.com slash samori.
[04:21.210 --> 04:28.610]  What you'll find there now is an invitation for you to do what so many of the people around BAI have done.
[04:28.610 --> 04:39.170]  This is a man who changed lives here, radio here, and to the extent that radio here is important, something greater in the world.
[04:39.170 --> 04:43.070]  And we're able to say that because we have access to these microphones.
[04:43.430 --> 04:48.310]  And you folks, please come and add to the guest book, to email.
[04:48.730 --> 04:50.450]  We want... we're going to take tapes.
[04:50.690 --> 04:53.610]  The tribute this afternoon is being encoded for real audio.
[04:53.610 --> 04:55.270]  I think we're going to have it up by tomorrow.
[04:55.790 --> 04:59.410]  We want this to be a chance to take these...
[04:59.410 --> 05:09.290]  Well, I took... I'm sitting here, and I told Emmanuel to cut me off if I wasn't being coherent, because everybody has been in shock and tears around here.
[05:10.570 --> 05:12.610]  And so we all take what we do.
[05:12.730 --> 05:14.570]  Somebody is building morning cloth.
[05:14.990 --> 05:17.790]  Somebody else is talking to the press to get the word out.
[05:17.790 --> 05:20.650]  And we're using the computer skills that we have.
[05:20.850 --> 05:25.150]  So Samori's page is up, and it will be up as long as I remember.
[05:25.170 --> 05:28.110]  And I'm young enough to hope that that's going to be a good long time.
[05:28.730 --> 05:47.810]  And your contribution to our remembrance and our dream of what this place should be, what this show should be, what this radio station should be, we want samori.net, temporarily, dslprime.com, slash samori.
[05:47.950 --> 05:57.810]  And we'll also be putting some material up on the 2600 website, hopefully as early as tonight, with some memorial tributes from this afternoon, and perhaps other times as well.
[05:58.470 --> 06:14.950]  For those of you who didn't have the honor of knowing him, or even knowing his voice, actually, I'm not certain if we have something that has his voice, because I'm certain that people who have heard this show have heard his voice on one of the many promos that we have aired.
[06:14.970 --> 06:26.610]  In fact, those people on the internet, if you listen to the end of last week's show, you'll hear a samori announcement about a demonstration, which is taking place tomorrow, in fact, at Police Plaza.
[06:27.190 --> 06:48.270]  But for those of you who didn't know him, all I can do is ask you to imagine someone, imagine someone who has a keen interest in things that are going on in every part of the world, knows who is running what, in what country, the history, the future, the potential,
[06:48.630 --> 06:51.610]  the injustices, what is right, what is wrong.
[06:51.950 --> 07:02.070]  And this goes for any region, whether it's Europe, Asia, Africa, South America, right here in the United States, right here in New York City.
[07:02.650 --> 07:09.550]  I can't think of anyone who had more of a passion for that kind of a thing.
[07:09.770 --> 07:14.630]  You know, we're taught to not be into this.
[07:14.750 --> 07:21.430]  I don't know exactly what the reasoning is, but we're taught to just accept our day-to-day lives as dull and boring.
[07:21.610 --> 07:24.210]  And samori was anything but dull and boring.
[07:24.370 --> 07:25.970]  Everything was exciting to him.
[07:25.970 --> 07:29.210]  Everything was something to be interested in.
[07:29.510 --> 07:31.290]  And technology was no exception.
[07:31.470 --> 07:37.510]  Technology was something that he had a very keen interest in and saw the potential.
[07:37.850 --> 07:44.970]  He wanted to move the station ahead, to get us onto the Internet, to do all kinds of things like that.
[07:45.550 --> 07:46.810]  And, you know, it's...
[07:46.810 --> 07:51.930]  We've lost probably the soul of our radio station in losing samori.
[07:51.930 --> 07:56.590]  You know, I look upon him as the personification of what this radio station was all about.
[07:57.310 --> 08:02.250]  I'm sorry I never had a chance to actually say that to him, but I think, you know, that's something we all know.
[08:02.430 --> 08:04.450]  It's something we've all been aware of here at the radio station.
[08:04.510 --> 08:10.590]  For one thing, he was program director longer than I think anyone has ever been program director before at this station.
[08:10.770 --> 08:12.690]  David, perhaps you know when he actually started.
[08:13.370 --> 08:19.190]  He's been around something like eight years as program director this time.
[08:19.190 --> 08:20.050]  That has to be a record.
[08:20.050 --> 08:20.510]  And did it before.
[08:20.710 --> 08:22.210]  Usually program director is...
[08:22.210 --> 08:25.690]  And he would be here as long as he was with us.
[08:25.890 --> 08:29.170]  He left the only way that he would have been asked to leave.
[08:30.290 --> 08:39.690]  And it was a horrible, horrible thing because he was so vibrant and so imaginative and so creative.
[08:39.950 --> 08:42.490]  And we all fought all the time and it didn't matter.
[08:42.690 --> 08:49.970]  Because you knew that where he was fighting from his views, he believed in a dream that let things like this show and so many other things happen.
[08:50.270 --> 08:55.890]  My favorite show that Samori did was one of the ones he had with a fellow named Colby.
[08:56.550 --> 08:58.550]  Colby, the director of the CIA.
[08:58.910 --> 08:59.530]  My God.
[08:59.790 --> 09:07.250]  Not what you'd usually expect to be on BAI and I assure you that Samori's political commitment was as deep as the ocean.
[09:07.530 --> 09:10.670]  But they could talk back and forth about what was really important.
[09:10.930 --> 09:18.390]  And they could judge each other but they could speak to each other and they could speak about changing in the way she should be.
[09:18.510 --> 09:23.650]  Now, we all had the dream here of taking BAI and doing wonderful things with us.
[09:23.830 --> 09:26.310]  Some people see what we're doing here politically.
[09:26.310 --> 09:28.470]  Some people see directly in the community.
[09:28.970 --> 09:32.870]  Some people want to take that wider and deeper.
[09:33.130 --> 09:38.050]  And of course, folks listening to this show know how powerful it is to use the internet.
[09:38.510 --> 09:42.170]  It hasn't happened for all kinds of reasons that aren't bearing going into.
[09:42.670 --> 09:45.210]  But about a month ago, we started talking again.
[09:45.390 --> 09:53.790]  And when I got the technical possibility, when somebody in the trade said, we can do it, I knew who to go to to make it happen.
[09:54.150 --> 10:00.370]  So I went to Samori very quietly and said, oh, you know we can do all this technical stuff.
[10:00.930 --> 10:02.650]  You find a way to make it happen.
[10:02.670 --> 10:04.930]  And he said, we have to do this.
[10:05.410 --> 10:12.890]  We have to get out to where you can reach everybody in New York once and everybody around the world with everything that we're doing, including off the hook.
[10:13.290 --> 10:15.170]  And let's find a way to do it.
[10:15.430 --> 10:19.870]  And we may have to fight and we may have to struggle, but we're going to find a way.
[10:20.710 --> 10:24.450]  And that was what he did for so many years.
[10:24.970 --> 10:29.530]  BAI is always a beleaguered place because we have wonderful freedom here.
[10:30.190 --> 10:32.450]  And that freedom has to be fought for.
[10:33.150 --> 10:37.610]  Since I was a little boy, I remember listening to BAI and I'm 47 now.
[10:38.450 --> 10:41.710]  And Samori was the leader that we have had for so many years.
[10:41.890 --> 10:45.690]  So yes, he was wonderful and we'd all cry because we lost a wonderful friend.
[10:47.090 --> 10:53.810]  And he's obviously somebody who will say that, don't mourn, go out and do.
[10:53.990 --> 10:56.290]  And we're going to look for all that help.
[10:56.450 --> 10:58.690]  Right now, we want the remembrances.
[10:58.690 --> 10:59.950]  We want to hear from you.
[11:00.490 --> 11:03.690]  I don't know whether we're going to be able to get the phones open later on.
[11:03.970 --> 11:06.050]  I know that we have it on the web now.
[11:06.710 --> 11:09.790]  Temporarily, dslprime.com slash samori.
[11:10.170 --> 11:15.690]  As soon as the powers that be let us happen, I've reserved samori.net and that site actually already exists.
[11:16.170 --> 11:25.710]  I know that if you listen to the radio station throughout the next day or so, you're going to hear constant opportunities to voice your memories as well.
[11:25.830 --> 11:28.370]  Hopefully we can keep the feed up on the net as long as possible.
[11:29.050 --> 11:45.230]  I think there would not be a more fitting tribute to Samori than for those people out there who have ever listened to the station or just ever been touched in some way by the work that he's done in this place is to get involved, to take an interest, to read a newspaper,
[11:45.450 --> 11:56.410]  to learn history, to learn politics of distant lands and of your native land and to talk to other people about the things that are going on.
[11:56.570 --> 12:02.350]  Go to demonstrations, go to rallies, to meetings, become a part of things.
[12:02.570 --> 12:05.670]  Because what Samori did was he proved that was not boring.
[12:05.670 --> 12:06.590]  That was not dull.
[12:06.690 --> 12:08.450]  He was anything but those things.
[12:09.150 --> 12:10.370]  And to just...
[12:10.930 --> 12:13.570]  to realize that so many people miss out on that.
[12:13.730 --> 12:15.490]  Samori lived a very rich and full life.
[12:15.670 --> 12:21.950]  You know, we are so lucky to have someone of that stature here working for a lowly radio station.
[12:22.210 --> 12:26.190]  You know, this is some guy that he could have been a leader of a country, I think.
[12:26.190 --> 12:28.830]  A lowly radio station it may be.
[12:29.270 --> 12:35.030]  Obscure producer on an obscure thing that a lot of us care about, but most of the world you wouldn't think no.
[12:35.290 --> 12:40.430]  But the phone calls that have come in today have come in from heads of state.
[12:40.650 --> 12:40.950]  Yeah.
[12:41.470 --> 12:41.790]  Okay.
[12:42.470 --> 12:43.850]  This is Jake and Colt.
[12:44.050 --> 12:45.170]  She was on tape.
[12:45.330 --> 12:46.570]  We used that in the news.
[12:46.910 --> 12:50.710]  We were getting calls from places like Namibia were coming in.
[12:51.170 --> 12:56.350]  And I remember when he was here with a fellow who might be the head of state now if he did not himself pass.
[12:56.570 --> 13:01.970]  It was Joe Slovo who once was second to Nelson Mandela in the African National Congress.
[13:02.170 --> 13:06.550]  And I came just to shake his hand and he came to talk to Samori.
[13:06.910 --> 13:10.110]  All of those tapes are the archive of BAI.
[13:10.450 --> 13:12.750]  All of those are wonderful things we've built.
[13:12.850 --> 13:13.630]  We're going to go on.
[13:13.730 --> 13:16.390]  In fact, the internet at BAI is growing again.
[13:16.670 --> 13:19.930]  Next Wednesday, anybody who's free, come join us.
[13:19.930 --> 13:22.890]  We're going to be in the morning show office before my show.
[13:23.010 --> 13:32.730]  So around 6, 6.30, come on up to BAI next Wednesday or email me daveb at dslprime.com and say that you can help doing things.
[13:32.870 --> 13:46.930]  That wasn't set for Samori, but I think all of us here at the station are turning around and saying, what can we do to take this enormously precious resource and preserve it and spread it?
[13:46.930 --> 13:52.810]  So those of you who do computer stuff, that's helped that we very much we were going to welcome and we will welcome.
[13:53.430 --> 13:55.250]  Now I think I wanted a little bit more.
[13:56.810 --> 13:57.250]  Absolutely.
[13:58.550 --> 14:10.210]  I think a lot of what is going on in the city today, it's just such such a sadness that he's not going to be around to see how things turn out.
[14:10.430 --> 14:12.030]  I mean, are we at war right now?
[14:12.190 --> 14:15.470]  You know, it's something that's been pushed to the back of my mind.
[14:15.650 --> 14:19.250]  There's a war that's brewing over there in Kosovo.
[14:19.790 --> 14:28.190]  And when there is a war, everybody in New York who knows a certain community has come to BAI.
[14:28.350 --> 14:36.550]  When the bombs started falling in Iraq, everybody came here because we felt we had to say something and do something.
[14:37.170 --> 14:41.070]  The only other time that everybody came has been today.
[14:41.510 --> 14:42.770]  Everybody has come here.
[14:43.130 --> 14:49.110]  Everybody has been on the shoulder because this is a source of strength for so many of us.
[14:49.370 --> 15:04.650]  It happens because people like Samori, beside putting their political life on the line and risking going to jail, I hope to be down at City Hall sometime in the next week myself for that, but a whole lot of you and a lot of other people have taken that small sacrifice.
[15:05.070 --> 15:09.110]  Something people don't know about Samori who aren't here is he's been very sick.
[15:09.110 --> 15:11.810]  He left for a month not long ago.
[15:12.010 --> 15:16.730]  He was in the hospital with problems that are related to what probably happened.
[15:17.010 --> 15:18.850]  He had blood pressure that he talked about.
[15:18.990 --> 15:20.150]  I don't know what else was there.
[15:20.430 --> 15:27.250]  But he was a man who knew that by taking and fighting and struggling, he was risking his life.
[15:27.670 --> 15:32.830]  And God damn it, he lost that one and we lost a whole lot.
[15:34.930 --> 15:40.870]  But I'm talking too much about something I can't stop talking about.
[15:40.950 --> 15:53.030]  So I'm going to hand back to Emmanuel to take the show Well, it's something that I don't think any of us can stop talking about here at the radio station and hopefully the listeners are able to understand that because without someone like Samori at the helm,
[15:53.270 --> 15:55.130]  this station would be a very different place.
[15:55.370 --> 16:05.770]  It wouldn't focus on so many different widely divergent aspects that make our culture so interesting and I think that's something we have to keep.
[16:05.990 --> 16:10.990]  We have to remember and we have to somehow, hard as it may be, figure out a way to keep going.
[16:13.970 --> 16:17.430]  Do we have copies of Behind the News on tape?
[16:17.610 --> 16:20.110]  If so, I'd love to put those up on the net as well so people can hear it.
[16:20.150 --> 16:50.690]  The tape that we are currently transcribing starts with a wonderful conversation of Samori and him talking on the air about oh I don't know I think we got Tony Benn on there who's a British parliamentarian and a whole pile of things like that so we've got that we're going to have way more of that because everybody of interest in the world politics in the last five or ten years has talked to Samori
[16:50.690 --> 17:06.250]  from a writer like Gore Vidal to the head of the CIA to the leaders of almost every nation what he would do What we do is as they came through to speak at the United Nations, and most of the world comes through, they would also stop at BAI.
[17:06.730 --> 17:08.010]  So there is an archive.
[17:08.330 --> 17:09.770]  We have a tool called the Internet.
[17:10.290 --> 17:12.050]  We've got enough space to get started.
[17:12.050 --> 17:21.430]  If any of you folks out there have high-quality real audio servers that we can use to put some more of this up, please, you can email samori at DSL Prime.
[17:21.650 --> 17:23.470]  Anything at DSL Prime just goes to me now.
[17:23.590 --> 17:24.490]  It's just one of my babies.
[17:24.670 --> 17:28.150]  We're just using it until samori.net is available in a day or two.
[17:28.550 --> 17:29.730]  And then it's going to be there.
[17:30.110 --> 17:30.390]  All right.
[17:30.470 --> 17:32.590]  And we'll do all this in his memory.
[17:32.690 --> 17:33.990]  I wonder, did he ever talk to Giuliani?
[17:35.150 --> 17:37.150]  Samori and Giuliani have much history.
[17:37.430 --> 17:37.950]  Do they?
[17:38.650 --> 17:40.210]  Samori has history with everyone.
[17:40.350 --> 17:41.910]  I don't know the details, so I went...
[17:41.910 --> 17:43.310]  You just take for granted.
[17:43.550 --> 17:46.330]  It was wonderful working here for a few years.
[17:46.550 --> 17:49.430]  But she sat at BAI and everybody came.
[17:50.610 --> 17:53.450]  Sometimes they were quite angry when they dropped by.
[17:53.450 --> 17:58.090]  Many of them came, and they had very, very strong things to disagree with.
[17:58.450 --> 18:01.790]  And there was room at WBAI for people to disagree.
[18:02.410 --> 18:06.370]  We've had almost everybody in the computer business come through at some point or another.
[18:06.530 --> 18:07.310]  And it was real funny.
[18:07.350 --> 18:09.490]  We used to have these funky offices on 35th Street.
[18:09.850 --> 18:13.350]  Now we happen to get a real estate deal that accidentally put us in gorgeous offices.
[18:13.570 --> 18:16.850]  And I hate being on Wall Street, and I hate how beautiful these offices are.
[18:16.890 --> 18:19.030]  Well, the rest of Wall Street hates us being here, let me tell you that.
[18:19.210 --> 18:20.230]  Yeah, we're...
[18:20.230 --> 18:22.050]  They're passing a petition around to get us removed.
[18:22.050 --> 18:22.510]  You know that.
[18:22.510 --> 18:24.070]  We are at the belly of the beast.
[18:24.210 --> 18:27.730]  But we used to have some properly funky offices over on 35th Street.
[18:27.890 --> 18:34.210]  And I was bringing these folks who were prominent in the computer business, some of whom were worth several hundred million dollars and more.
[18:34.390 --> 18:37.530]  And they came to talk because we were talking computers and we were interesting.
[18:37.750 --> 18:39.030]  That's what we did on the computers.
[18:39.390 --> 18:42.310]  You've had many of the most interesting computer people here.
[18:42.690 --> 18:43.730]  So Maury did something else.
[18:43.730 --> 18:50.150]  He had the most interesting heads of countries, heads of the opposition in the countries.
[18:50.890 --> 18:53.650]  Everybody from the United Nations has always come.
[18:53.870 --> 18:56.110]  The world came to talk to Samori.
[18:56.290 --> 19:04.310]  So he was known to maybe a few outside the BA audience, but a very influential few.
[19:04.650 --> 19:10.850]  Every author of a political treatise in the last 10 or 15 years would always come through.
[19:10.850 --> 19:17.610]  But even in those fields where Samori was not active, such as science, technology, he recognized the importance of it.
[19:17.710 --> 19:34.090]  And then keeping radio shows like your show, my show, Mishu Kaku's show, all the different programs we have throughout the week, keeping those on the air as well as international events, I think that's something that's just so rare when somebody appreciates all of those different aspects.
[19:34.750 --> 19:36.410]  Samori, I had to sit through.
[19:36.690 --> 19:39.010]  Working at BA, I mean, far too many meetings.
[19:39.010 --> 19:40.930]  And I had to sit through a whole lot.
[19:41.030 --> 19:49.230]  And the one thing you can always count on Samori to say was, well, I don't care if it's in this category or that category or this department or that department.
[19:50.070 --> 19:52.250]  It's good or it's important.
[19:52.530 --> 19:53.070]  Both mattered.
[19:53.990 --> 19:55.410]  We've got to find a place for it.
[19:55.750 --> 19:59.870]  And it's very hard in the number of hours we have on the air to find a place for everybody.
[20:00.210 --> 20:07.310]  But Samori brought to the air and encouraged and supported everything that's wonderful that makes you listen to this station.
[20:07.310 --> 20:28.890]  So everybody who is here, if you care not a whit about where the political thing is, but you care about this show or my show or Raven show or the opera show, Samori personally, I know, made sure we still have an opera show because he felt that that also belonged here.
[20:29.050 --> 20:34.910]  And he didn't want to turn around and make this just what happens to be Samori Marksman's visible interest.
[20:34.910 --> 20:36.330]  He said, well, he was a political scholar.
[20:36.530 --> 20:38.290]  And that's what he brought to the air mostly.
[20:38.550 --> 20:43.690]  But he personally made sure that there were so many other things.
[20:45.250 --> 20:45.790]  All right.
[20:46.290 --> 20:48.310]  Dave Bristain, thanks very much for stopping into the show.
[20:50.690 --> 20:56.610]  And for those who might be tuning in, we are mourning the loss of our program director, Samori Marksman, who passed away this morning at the age of 51.
[20:58.370 --> 21:06.670]  And we're going to try to continue with the rest of Off the Hook, which, believe it or not, is a pretty important show.
[21:07.050 --> 21:14.930]  This particular episode of the show is pretty important because we had some pretty dramatic events happen in our world as well.
[21:15.090 --> 21:27.990]  And it's too bad that there aren't more hours in the day where we could devote time to this, but we're going to try and squeeze in all of the information that we can and hopefully come away a bit wiser and more informed.
[21:28.730 --> 21:31.970]  We have on the phone, hopefully, with us, Bernie S.
[21:32.090 --> 21:32.610]  from Philadelphia.
[21:33.370 --> 21:34.210]  Bernie, are you there?
[21:35.930 --> 21:36.450]  Oh, dear.
[21:36.470 --> 21:37.230]  I don't think we have Bernie.
[21:37.650 --> 21:38.050]  Okay.
[21:38.210 --> 21:40.250]  Do we have Mackie from California?
[21:40.770 --> 21:41.510]  Yeah, I'm here.
[21:41.630 --> 21:41.910]  Okay.
[21:41.910 --> 21:42.930]  I don't know what happened to Bernie.
[21:43.710 --> 21:50.670]  Bernie, we had called him a while ago, so perhaps we'll start without him and then join him a little bit later.
[21:52.150 --> 22:06.570]  The main thing that happened this past week, and, of course, I'm sure anybody reading the newspapers and watching television have heard about this, Kevin Mitnick is rumored to have gone for a plea deal.
[22:06.910 --> 22:13.690]  That's right, a plea deal with the government where he would plead guilty to seven charges and remain in prison for another year.
[22:13.770 --> 22:16.150]  Now, the interesting thing is that this deal has not yet been made.
[22:16.150 --> 22:17.210]  The deal was leaked.
[22:17.710 --> 22:19.210]  The deal was leaked out.
[22:19.790 --> 22:21.550]  And now everybody's talking about it.
[22:22.010 --> 22:28.410]  Mackie, perhaps you could give us some background on just what happened, the timeline, and what you think it means while I try to get Bernie S.
[22:28.470 --> 22:28.630]  back.
[22:29.370 --> 22:33.710]  Well, I believe it was last Wednesday evening sometime.
[22:34.830 --> 22:58.710]  An article came out on Ziff Davis' website, ZD News, and it was an article by Alex Wellen, and it was reporting that from anonymous sources, a plea arrangement had been reached between Mitnick and Christopher Painter and Schindler's office, the U.S.
[22:58.790 --> 23:07.250]  attorneys, and the agreement would allow him to presumably get out of jail within about a year.
[23:07.870 --> 23:14.610]  And that would mean that he's pleading guilty to, I believe it was about 75% of the original indictment.
[23:15.610 --> 23:19.790]  And, of course, this deal still has to get approved by the judge.
[23:20.350 --> 23:36.590]  And that wasn't really mentioned too much, and no one really paid attention to the fact that the leak itself was illegal, that the fact that anyone knew about the plea agreement except for those involved wasn't supposed to happen.
[23:36.970 --> 23:37.710]  It was...
[23:38.890 --> 23:41.990]  Then, I believe it was the Thursday after that, an L.A.
[23:42.050 --> 23:52.530]  Times article came out saying pretty much the same thing, the slightly more balanced article, but just perpetuating the same story.
[23:52.530 --> 23:55.770]  And since then, it's been pretty much a media landslide.
[23:56.030 --> 24:08.970]  There's been many articles from every direction and many reports on it, and it's basically grown into Kevin Mitnick pleads guilty, even though, of course, no plea's been entered, and it isn't even...
[24:08.970 --> 24:13.310]  Even if there was one, it wouldn't be to the original 25-count indictment.
[24:13.850 --> 24:18.550]  And so there's been a lot of misinformation flying around.
[24:18.830 --> 24:20.290]  Yeah, that's certainly true.
[24:20.290 --> 24:23.130]  Actually, according to our phone, Bernie S.
[24:23.210 --> 24:23.910]  is already on the line.
[24:24.030 --> 24:24.630]  Bernie, are you there?
[24:25.190 --> 24:26.770]  Okay, I don't understand what's happening here.
[24:27.370 --> 24:36.350]  What I'm going to try to do, since apparently Bernie is with us, but he can't hear us, I'm going to put us on hold with you, disconnect him.
[24:37.530 --> 24:38.510]  This is Bernie's line.
[24:38.550 --> 24:39.010]  Is Bernie there?
[24:39.330 --> 24:39.950]  No, he's not.
[24:40.090 --> 24:44.650]  Okay, so I'm going to disconnect him there and reconnect with Mackie in California.
[24:44.690 --> 24:45.310]  Are you with us?
[24:45.750 --> 24:46.110]  Okay.
[24:46.410 --> 24:49.470]  So hopefully I'll be able to reconnect with Bernie S.
[24:49.470 --> 24:53.770]  Yeah, the main problem right now, of course, is that people do assume that Kevin is now guilty.
[24:53.950 --> 24:59.570]  Now, one reason I'm hoping to get Bernie on the line is because he was basically forced to do the same thing.
[25:00.650 --> 25:14.310]  But as someone following this story, and I should point out, you're one of our webmasters, you've been involved with the Mitnick story for quite some time, and in passing around information and correcting people when they make mistakes, particularly journalists,
[25:14.390 --> 25:15.510]  who seem to make the most mistakes.
[25:16.930 --> 25:21.170]  How do you think the average person is actually getting this information?
[25:21.410 --> 25:24.530]  What are the major points that they just keep getting wrong?
[25:26.090 --> 25:31.270]  Well, I think, of course, the biggest one right now is just that he's pled guilty.
[25:31.470 --> 25:32.070]  I mean, everyone...
[25:32.070 --> 25:36.550]  That's a consensus when there are huge headlines saying Mitnick pleads guilty.
[25:36.770 --> 25:42.690]  But there are some reoccurring myths that keep popping up in reports.
[25:43.810 --> 25:51.290]  The most common one is probably the myth that he's been on the FBI's most wanted list.
[25:51.530 --> 26:09.850]  This was a myth that was started by John Markoff's infamous February 15, 1995 article, which said something to the effect of Mitnick, the FBI's most wanted cyber criminal, which doesn't mean most wanted list.
[26:10.030 --> 26:15.910]  That just is kind of an objective term to say that he's the most wanted cyber criminal, if that's even a word.
[26:15.910 --> 26:18.430]  Well, that's a cool wired kind of way of saying it, I guess.
[26:18.570 --> 26:18.710]  Yeah.
[26:19.110 --> 26:26.910]  And so since then, that's grown over the last four years into that he was on the most wanted list.
[26:27.290 --> 26:29.210]  And there was also a U.S.
[26:29.290 --> 26:35.930]  Marshal's wanted poster, which has kind of grown to support the myth that he was on a most wanted list.
[26:37.430 --> 26:39.870]  And so there's been other articles on that.
[26:39.990 --> 26:45.330]  And then there were some recent ones where they just kind of probably saw the first Markoff article.
[26:45.650 --> 26:50.390]  And then they'd go and see other reports that he was on the most wanted list and assume it must be true.
[26:52.670 --> 26:59.570]  So that's been kind of a setback because it really just makes him look a lot worse than he is.
[26:59.630 --> 27:03.390]  And it implies that he was a fugitive, which is another myth.
[27:04.290 --> 27:06.670]  Kevin Mitnick was never a fugitive.
[27:06.970 --> 27:08.750]  There was a time when the U.S.
[27:08.910 --> 27:10.090]  Marshals were looking for him.
[27:10.410 --> 27:19.790]  But in subsequent hearings after he was arrested, it came out that it was ruled officially that he was never a fugitive.
[27:21.310 --> 27:26.070]  And so I've spent the last week kind of just going around when I'll see an article.
[27:26.910 --> 27:27.510]  Uh-oh.
[27:28.010 --> 27:29.150]  Okay, I messed up.
[27:29.270 --> 27:30.350]  I have Bernie S.
[27:30.410 --> 27:31.930]  on the line, but I just got rid of Mackie.
[27:32.050 --> 27:32.910]  Bernie, are you with us?
[27:33.290 --> 27:33.990]  Yes, I am.
[27:34.050 --> 27:34.610]  Sorry about that.
[27:34.610 --> 27:36.150]  I'm really not myself tonight.
[27:37.390 --> 27:54.130]  Okay, I'm going to get Mackie back, but perhaps you could tell us, as someone who went through more or less the same thing yourself, dealing with the federal government, being held in prison, and eventually pleading guilty to something that you really didn't feel you should be pleading guilty to,
[27:54.130 --> 27:56.990]  what goes through somebody's mind when they make a deal like that?
[27:58.170 --> 28:03.290]  Well, it's a very difficult position to be in.
[28:04.690 --> 28:06.470]  You're placed in a...
[28:06.470 --> 28:14.510]  Well, in Kevin's case, as was in my case, you're held without bail, without any chance of getting bail.
[28:14.890 --> 28:27.650]  Oftentimes, you're not even given a bail hearing, or you are given a hearing, and the government presents false evidence that prevents you from getting bail, and then you have no more chances of appealing that.
[28:28.550 --> 28:29.810]  That's what happened in my case.
[28:30.550 --> 28:34.930]  And so, you know you're not getting out that the ball's in their court as far as what they want to do.
[28:36.530 --> 28:58.650]  And then, after going through hearing after hearing on evidentiary issues, suppression hearings, that sort of thing, and you sit there, and you have to tolerate listening to government law enforcement officials commit perjury, you know you're not going to have a fair trial.
[28:58.850 --> 29:00.510]  You see the writing on the wall.
[29:00.570 --> 29:01.750]  You know which way the wind is blowing.
[29:02.070 --> 29:03.250]  And you're sitting there.
[29:03.390 --> 29:08.230]  I, fortunately, only sat there in federal prison for the better part of a year.
[29:09.090 --> 29:12.350]  But in Kevin's case, he's been there for over four years now.
[29:14.210 --> 29:17.530]  You can't convey this to a person who hasn't gone through this before.
[29:17.750 --> 29:24.990]  But when you're sitting there for month after month, year after year in Kevin's case, at one point, you break.
[29:24.990 --> 29:25.730]  You give up.
[29:26.270 --> 29:30.350]  You're like, look, I'll do whatever it takes to get the hell out of here.
[29:30.890 --> 29:33.530]  And I'm afraid that's the situation he's in right now.
[29:34.070 --> 29:35.130]  Well, I know this.
[29:35.310 --> 29:47.150]  And by the way, that having been in prison for four years and one month and change, I think Kevin has held up a lot longer than most of us would have in similar situations.
[29:47.970 --> 30:00.490]  And it's heading insult to injury to assume that because someone finally does what's right for him rather than what's right for everybody else, that he's giving up.
[30:00.490 --> 30:01.290]  It's a bad thing.
[30:01.530 --> 30:03.030]  I mean, basically, here's what we were looking at.
[30:03.130 --> 30:06.570]  We're looking at going to trial April 20th, which is less than a month away.
[30:07.450 --> 30:10.690]  His lawyer, admittedly, was completely unprepared.
[30:10.890 --> 30:19.250]  I mean, by his own admission, he kept asking for extensions for more time to go through the mounds of evidence.
[30:19.250 --> 30:21.830]  We're talking at least 10 gigs here and probably a lot more.
[30:22.690 --> 30:23.130]  Kevin...
[30:23.130 --> 30:25.870]  And not even being given the opportunity to review a lot of evidence.
[30:26.030 --> 30:26.450]  Right, absolutely.
[30:26.650 --> 30:27.390]  Because it was encrypted.
[30:27.650 --> 30:31.850]  Kevin was struggling to use a computer.
[30:31.930 --> 30:43.710]  Not that Kevin has to struggle to use a computer, but, you know, struggling to use a computer under their particular rules where he has to use this thing only when a representative from his lawyer's office is there.
[30:43.910 --> 30:49.350]  Keep in mind, Kevin had a court-appointed lawyer, meaning that this person was being paid very little.
[30:49.870 --> 30:51.930]  He had many other cases to deal with.
[30:52.090 --> 30:59.230]  So, therefore, he was not getting the same legal attention that somebody, say, like O.J.
[30:59.290 --> 31:03.730]  Simpson might have gotten had he been able to hire a lawyer.
[31:03.870 --> 31:09.690]  And I think, you know, if you look at other people, the people who are in prison are the ones without money.
[31:09.830 --> 31:12.030]  The people who have money aren't in prison.
[31:12.150 --> 31:12.750]  They're out on bail.
[31:13.030 --> 31:14.410]  Kevin, they've even got a bail hearing.
[31:14.710 --> 31:17.050]  The government argued that, yes, you have all these constitutional rights.
[31:17.150 --> 31:18.030]  And, yes, you have them.
[31:18.130 --> 31:26.270]  Unfortunately, those rights just don't work when the government misrepresents or is fraudulent about the information they're testifying to.
[31:26.450 --> 31:27.970]  Worse than that...
[31:29.510 --> 31:29.950]  Go ahead.
[31:29.990 --> 31:30.450]  What were you going to say?
[31:32.070 --> 31:34.730]  Actually, you distracted me, so I don't remember what I was going to say.
[31:35.770 --> 31:36.710]  Mackie, why don't you jump in?
[31:36.710 --> 31:38.170]  I lost my train of thought.
[31:39.770 --> 31:40.630]  Well, I'll pick it up.
[31:40.730 --> 31:43.990]  Well, I think it went on the siding with my train of thought, so, Mackie, take over.
[31:44.990 --> 32:01.870]  Worse than that, when you're regarding the encrypted evidence, when you're not being given the opportunity to look at exculpatory material, that is, material which could prove your own defense, prove your own case, when you're not even being able to access that information,
[32:02.010 --> 32:06.070]  which is required under law, you're in a tough spot.
[32:07.310 --> 32:07.830]  Absolutely.
[32:08.190 --> 32:08.370]  Absolutely.
[32:08.830 --> 32:19.070]  Kevin was lucky because he had other, he still does, other people on the outside spreading information about his case, talking about it.
[32:19.230 --> 32:21.090]  And I believe, Bernie, you also had that.
[32:21.470 --> 32:30.690]  And I think that makes a big difference, but it also underlines the fact that there are so many people who don't have that, who are stuck someplace in the system and forgotten about.
[32:30.810 --> 32:33.070]  And literally, they could be forgotten about for the rest of their lives.
[32:33.070 --> 32:34.810]  I remember what I was going to bring up now.
[32:34.890 --> 32:36.690]  It comes down to a question of resources.
[32:37.010 --> 32:37.250]  Right.
[32:37.450 --> 32:40.210]  The government will say that you have all these constitutional rights, whatever.
[32:40.670 --> 32:43.990]  They count for something, but not much, when the government's going to lie.
[32:44.150 --> 32:47.770]  But worse than that, as I was going to say, it comes down to a question of resources.
[32:48.750 --> 32:55.690]  When you have the full weight of the federal government coming down on you, their resources are literally unlimited.
[32:56.110 --> 33:05.630]  It would not be an exaggeration to say that the government's case against Kevin Mitnick has already cost taxpayers well over a million dollars.
[33:05.750 --> 33:07.370]  I know people will say, oh, that's ridiculous.
[33:07.750 --> 33:13.790]  Talk to some federal attorneys, and they will tell you what the costs are involved in prosecuting a case.
[33:14.030 --> 33:15.990]  And what resources does he have?
[33:16.430 --> 33:17.750]  Very little, if any.
[33:17.750 --> 33:20.230]  And he's not even being given access to information.
[33:20.510 --> 33:31.610]  These days, especially when a case involves something this complicated, involves a lot of computer data, that sort of thing, you need access, you need resources, you need access to all this information.
[33:31.790 --> 33:39.030]  He's not being given access to that, and he's being given scant resources as far as expert witnesses, that sort of thing.
[33:39.110 --> 33:45.370]  The government has unlimited resources, and he is being locked in a cage and being given virtually none.
[33:45.650 --> 33:46.690]  And plus, you know...
[33:46.690 --> 33:47.730]  Tell me this is fair.
[33:47.730 --> 33:52.770]  Bernie, you've had experience with this as far as organizing your defense from a prison cell.
[33:52.910 --> 33:55.730]  What are some of the setbacks that you might encounter trying to do that?
[33:56.050 --> 34:02.030]  Well, if you're lucky, you get one phone call a day, which is usually limited to 15 minutes.
[34:04.130 --> 34:10.810]  And under extremely noisy conditions, sometimes people fighting around you, screaming, yelling.
[34:12.050 --> 34:14.090]  If a call doesn't go through, you're out of luck.
[34:14.090 --> 34:16.210]  If the line is busy, you're out of luck.
[34:16.430 --> 34:17.730]  Come back the next day.
[34:18.210 --> 34:19.850]  Meanwhile, the days are taking away.
[34:20.290 --> 34:22.290]  It's unbelievably frustrating.
[34:22.470 --> 34:38.230]  I can't possibly convey, and nobody can convey to someone who hasn't gone through this very experience, how... the best analogy I can come up with was a nightmare I would have night after night while I was in my prison cell.
[34:38.310 --> 34:42.090]  And that came down to the government was a steamroller.
[34:42.090 --> 34:51.430]  And if you've ever looked at a steamroller rolling over asphalt, little bits of asphalt stick to this big roller and sort of fall off as it's rolling ahead.
[34:51.870 --> 34:55.710]  And I imagine myself getting rolled over by this steamroller.
[34:55.910 --> 35:03.690]  And, yes, I was given the legal right to object to things here and there and objecting to this little piece of asphalt falling off the steamroller onto me.
[35:03.770 --> 35:05.150]  And this little piece over here, too.
[35:05.150 --> 35:11.870]  Meanwhile, the whole weight and force of this whole juggernaut is just rolling over me.
[35:11.970 --> 35:14.550]  And that's the best analogy I could come up with.
[35:14.590 --> 35:16.570]  And I had that nightmare many a night.
[35:17.850 --> 35:18.330]  Wow.
[35:19.250 --> 35:22.230]  There's also the question of the leak itself.
[35:22.550 --> 35:27.110]  I think that's just kind of interesting because it sure seems...
[35:27.110 --> 35:31.550]  Of course, we don't have a smoking gun, but it sure seems as if this was leaked by the prosecution.
[35:32.070 --> 35:40.290]  The most compelling reason being the fact that there is so much to lose with the defense leaking this information and very, very little, if anything, to gain.
[35:40.990 --> 35:47.990]  Bernie, is it your experience that this is standard operation for prosecution to leak information about future deals?
[35:49.470 --> 35:49.950]  Certainly.
[35:51.170 --> 35:58.350]  The federal government and state and local law enforcement people are well aware of how to manipulate the press.
[35:58.470 --> 36:02.710]  The press doesn't do their job very well, unfortunately, in many cases.
[36:02.950 --> 36:03.650]  They're in deadline.
[36:03.690 --> 36:05.470]  They need to get a story out by the end of the day.
[36:05.630 --> 36:07.550]  And they'll take what the other government will throw at them.
[36:07.550 --> 36:14.030]  And oftentimes, not even report it as what the government is saying, but report it as what happened.
[36:16.070 --> 36:18.670]  And so you see that in many cases.
[36:19.790 --> 36:30.290]  Most recently, in Clinton's case, I'm not defending him at all, but there's a situation where it was pretty clear that the U.S.
[36:30.370 --> 36:33.470]  Attorney's Office, in this case, Special Prosecutor's Office, was leaking information.
[36:33.630 --> 36:34.490]  It doesn't happen in...
[36:34.490 --> 36:35.790]  This is standard operating procedure.
[36:35.790 --> 36:38.750]  People made all kinds of noise about this Clinton case.
[36:38.910 --> 36:43.430]  That is standard operating procedure for federal attorneys, federal U.S.
[36:43.630 --> 36:44.650]  government attorneys.
[36:44.870 --> 36:48.050]  This is their standard mode of operation.
[36:48.050 --> 36:49.390]  This is nothing unusual.
[36:49.790 --> 36:59.430]  What's unusual in this case, in Kevin's case, is people are actually being made aware of what's happening on a day-to-day basis.
[36:59.730 --> 37:03.970]  It's not being done in the dark like it's done in 99.9% of the cases.
[37:05.830 --> 37:06.430]  Absolutely.
[37:06.850 --> 37:18.330]  I mean, I think we can all kind of agree that making a possible plea agreement would be prudent in most situations, just because it's such a futile process.
[37:18.590 --> 37:24.050]  But this still leaves the question of possible state charges still pending.
[37:24.870 --> 37:31.450]  And it seems like his constitutional rights have been denied as far as a speedy trial in the California case as well.
[37:31.450 --> 37:46.870]  Now, this brings up an interesting point, because, Bernie, this certainly brings back memories of what happened with you, where you were released by federal authorities and then, a couple of months later, taken into custody by the state because of a fairly minor case several years earlier,
[37:46.930 --> 37:54.270]  but which, technically, by being arrested by the federal government, you were in violation of probation, so you were sent back again for nearly a year.
[37:54.370 --> 37:57.510]  Now, something similar is happening with Kevin.
[37:57.510 --> 38:00.650]  Now, which of you would like to outline what this is exactly?
[38:01.390 --> 38:02.030]  Go ahead.
[38:02.490 --> 38:02.790]  Mackie?
[38:03.130 --> 38:03.630]  Okay.
[38:05.170 --> 38:09.450]  Well, pretty much, I believe it had to do with DMV charges.
[38:11.110 --> 38:14.230]  While I believe the U.S.
[38:14.330 --> 38:32.970]  Marshals were after him, it said that he requested DMV records of federal agents and that he was pursued in a Kinko's copy map, more or less.
[38:33.270 --> 38:46.750]  And so what they're doing now is they had charged him originally back in, I believe, 95 for the DMV-related offenses.
[38:46.750 --> 39:04.810]  And now he asked for a speedy trial and was denied that on the basis that Metropolitan Detention Center, which houses many felons, is not considered a federal penitentiary by one municipal court.
[39:04.810 --> 39:12.930]  I think the wording of the law is that if it's a federal correctional institution, then the rule applies.
[39:13.090 --> 39:27.410]  And I think in this case, the state government argued that where he was being held, the MDC, a federal holding center, was not a federal correctional institution.
[39:28.130 --> 39:33.970]  I don't know what else you'd call it, but, you know, a road by another name.
[39:34.510 --> 39:36.290]  So it basically comes down to...
[39:36.290 --> 39:37.330]  It's a little federal prison, bottom line.
[39:37.410 --> 39:44.190]  So basically, Isaac, it basically comes down to a matter of semantics, what they're calling the big building with the bars and the cement.
[39:45.650 --> 39:53.570]  Yeah, and the government is very skilled about using semantics in their favor in virtually every case.
[39:53.570 --> 39:57.310]  It's a little twist words and mince words in such ways.
[39:57.350 --> 40:03.510]  And this is a good example in arguing that the federal prison he's being held in is not a federal correctional institution.
[40:03.770 --> 40:09.230]  But because it's a pretrial detention center, then it's not a federal correctional institution.
[40:09.490 --> 40:11.310]  Bottom line, it's a federal prison, folks.
[40:11.630 --> 40:18.630]  And his rights shouldn't be denied because of what this particular court happens to call that building.
[40:24.050 --> 40:28.890]  Which, I should point out, has a lot to do with trying to find out what Justin Peterson was up to.
[40:29.010 --> 40:45.890]  Justin Peterson, of course, the hacker known as Agent Steele, who has been written up in many places, books, magazines, newspapers, as working as kind of a snitch, somebody who the FBI employed to track down people like Kevin Mitnick, but at the same time,
[40:46.010 --> 40:53.010]  someone who is guilty of committing far worse crimes than Kevin has ever committed, yet not serving any time for any of that.
[40:53.010 --> 40:54.450]  Which is pretty standard for people.
[40:54.450 --> 40:55.130]  It is pretty standard.
[40:55.370 --> 40:57.050]  It's something I've noticed that's sort of a theme.
[40:57.490 --> 41:02.630]  I don't know if people have watched the PBS Frontline documentary a few weeks ago called Snitch.
[41:02.870 --> 41:08.050]  If not, check out their website, pbs.org, and look under the Frontline episodes for Snitch.
[41:08.050 --> 41:08.910]  It's about Justin Peterson?
[41:09.710 --> 41:19.770]  It's not about that case, but it's about how the federal government works as far as using snitches to prosecute other people, basically let the snitches go, and they're the ones who commit the serious crimes.
[41:19.770 --> 41:24.370]  And the people who got snitched on do incredibly long sentences.
[41:24.730 --> 41:27.690]  And the documentary spoke to all that.
[41:27.690 --> 41:29.990]  I'm getting off the subject, but I just wanted to bring that to people's attention.
[41:30.010 --> 41:31.750]  This is standard procedure for the government.
[41:31.930 --> 41:34.290]  Well, this is what the other offense is about.
[41:34.450 --> 41:39.670]  It's about Kevin trying to find out just what this guy was up to and, of course, being caught at it.
[41:40.650 --> 41:55.470]  Now, if Kevin is sent away for that particular crime, which I understand has a bail warrant of a million dollars or something crazy like that, the prison that he could get sent to is far, far worse than where he is right now, a place where truly violent criminals go.
[41:55.950 --> 41:57.610]  And that is one of the main concerns.
[41:57.830 --> 41:59.170]  That is one of the main concerns that that...
[41:59.890 --> 42:05.290]  This is not a very good deal for Kevin in case people think that he's getting a good deal here.
[42:05.310 --> 42:05.710]  He's not.
[42:05.850 --> 42:06.630]  He's definitely not.
[42:06.630 --> 42:11.650]  Because the deal calls for him to get an additional year in prison, which I think is outrageous.
[42:11.730 --> 42:19.550]  And I believe many people in the Free Kevin movement are continuing their demands to have him released because it's just not right.
[42:19.710 --> 42:21.430]  It's just not right to keep him in prison anymore.
[42:21.550 --> 42:23.130]  That'll make it over five years, I think.
[42:23.270 --> 42:24.250]  Make it over five for what?
[42:25.070 --> 42:27.410]  I think people have served less time for murder.
[42:27.590 --> 42:28.170]  Of course they have.
[42:28.210 --> 42:29.910]  People have served less time for almost any crime.
[42:29.910 --> 42:32.650]  I think you can assassinate state leaders and get out quicker than that.
[42:32.750 --> 42:33.570]  It's insane.
[42:34.230 --> 42:41.690]  But the thing is, Kevin is agreeing to this out of desperation because if he goes to trial, he could get 35 years in prison.
[42:41.870 --> 42:45.150]  You know, it could just keep getting worse and worse if he loses in court.
[42:45.170 --> 42:53.310]  And every indication is, since the government has unlimited resources and since Kevin's legal team has virtually no resources, sure, he's going to lose.
[42:53.310 --> 42:55.850]  They could accuse him of killing Kennedy and he'd lose that case too.
[42:55.910 --> 42:56.350]  And you know what?
[42:56.350 --> 42:57.610]  He confessed to that as well.
[42:57.930 --> 42:59.030]  Because come on already.
[42:59.210 --> 43:02.130]  You know, at some point you have to say, hey, you know, I've got to live.
[43:02.210 --> 43:02.830]  I've got a life.
[43:03.030 --> 43:06.730]  Even if I have to spend another year in this hellhole, okay, I'll do it.
[43:06.910 --> 43:08.350]  I'll say whatever you want me to say.
[43:08.510 --> 43:10.170]  Just get me the hell out of here.
[43:10.450 --> 43:12.310]  And that's where he stands right now.
[43:12.350 --> 43:13.410]  And it's a really sad thing.
[43:13.810 --> 43:21.130]  There's a very good reason why the federal government has a 97% conviction right in federal criminal cases.
[43:21.270 --> 43:22.250]  It's not because they're good.
[43:23.030 --> 43:24.090]  They're not that good.
[43:24.210 --> 43:24.410]  No.
[43:24.410 --> 43:28.350]  And it's not because they're so smart or because they're that accurate.
[43:28.550 --> 43:30.550]  They can't find that guy in North Carolina, can they?
[43:30.650 --> 43:32.090]  So, I mean, how good are they, really?
[43:32.210 --> 43:33.730]  Because they carry such a big stick.
[43:33.970 --> 43:37.470]  That big stick is incredibly severe sentences.
[43:37.470 --> 43:39.750]  We're talking 5, 10, 15.
[43:40.010 --> 43:48.330]  In my case, the statute called for up to a 15-year sentence for merely possessing software that you might have written yourself.
[43:49.390 --> 43:53.710]  Now, that's not what I ended up getting, but those are because I ended up pleading guilty.
[43:53.710 --> 43:57.210]  If I hadn't, the sentence could have well reached into the years and years.
[43:58.250 --> 44:08.270]  And once you're found, once you go to trial, if you make the government go to the work of taking your case to a trial, they will get back at you at sentencing time because the ball is completely in their court.
[44:08.470 --> 44:13.570]  And they will throw every conceivable enhancement onto that sentence.
[44:13.690 --> 44:15.670]  I went through some crazy enhancements in my case.
[44:15.850 --> 44:17.950]  I'm like, they helped me...
[44:18.390 --> 44:21.850]  I don't want to get into too much detail, as an example.
[44:22.390 --> 44:31.810]  They enhanced my sentence months because they said that it involved more than minimal planning, which is a common enhancement tacked onto things.
[44:31.930 --> 44:39.350]  But the planning that they alleged occurred happened before the enactment of the statute I was charged with violating.
[44:39.610 --> 44:40.750]  I mean, that's ludicrous.
[44:40.870 --> 44:43.070]  That kind of stuff happens all the time, though.
[44:43.330 --> 44:48.230]  They will throw every conceivable thing on top of it once you're found guilty in a trial situation.
[44:48.710 --> 44:50.790]  And basically, you're looking at double digits.
[44:52.210 --> 44:54.830]  And imagine you're a teenager.
[44:55.090 --> 44:59.530]  Imagine you're a kid, you know, playing with computers, being thrown this kind of logic.
[44:59.930 --> 45:01.650]  How are you going to plead?
[45:01.650 --> 45:07.990]  Of course, you're going to take the path of least resistance and try to save your life because these guys are playing hardball.
[45:08.090 --> 45:12.490]  But the main thing here is that it really opens the door for selective prosecution.
[45:12.490 --> 45:21.550]  When you can prosecute somebody for writing software, possessing technology, or making a phone call, you know, there's a lot of people you don't prosecute for that.
[45:21.550 --> 45:23.850]  But the ones that you do, you pretty much pick and choose.
[45:23.850 --> 45:26.810]  You say, hey, we can get you on this because they can get anybody on this.
[45:26.910 --> 45:30.850]  So it's really easy for the feds to get that 97% success rate.
[45:31.030 --> 45:33.270]  The other thing, you bring up the...
[45:34.190 --> 45:38.150]  what's going to happen to Kevin after he's released from prison, after everything is over.
[45:38.150 --> 45:43.550]  We're talking unbelievable restrictions as to what he cannot touch.
[45:44.490 --> 45:47.290]  Does anybody have it in front of them as far as what the restrictions are?
[45:48.870 --> 45:49.230]  No?
[45:49.290 --> 45:50.010]  I have the final one.
[45:50.050 --> 45:50.170]  Okay.
[45:50.290 --> 45:55.070]  I know at one point, one of them even included not having access to a television set.
[45:55.170 --> 45:57.030]  But I think that one was revised later.
[45:57.130 --> 46:00.630]  It's probably one of those new television sets with chips in them, you know, when I'm touching those.
[46:00.930 --> 46:02.790]  Can't tell what it'll do with an HDTV.
[46:03.250 --> 46:03.610]  Yeah.
[46:04.570 --> 46:15.210]  I think I read those conditions yesterday on a website and they included not basically going even near any computer with or without a modem connection.
[46:15.510 --> 46:19.610]  That included, I think they even specifically mentioned web TV, that sort of thing.
[46:20.130 --> 46:27.210]  Any type of telephone where you could make any calls that involve the computer at all.
[46:27.530 --> 46:32.230]  Well, anybody who knows anything about the telephone system knows you can't make a call without it going through numerous computers.
[46:32.610 --> 46:32.910]  That's true.
[46:33.310 --> 46:34.190]  I mean, it's just...
[46:34.190 --> 46:38.330]  and believe me, these aren't the kinds of things the government is not aware of.
[46:38.930 --> 46:39.070]  Yeah.
[46:39.070 --> 46:39.830]  They're not stupid.
[46:40.010 --> 46:40.650]  They know what they're doing.
[46:40.910 --> 46:42.150]  to violate you on its own.
[46:42.150 --> 46:44.270]  They know exactly what they're doing as far as that goes.
[46:44.490 --> 46:50.930]  They're setting up an impossible condition for him because they know that if he goes for it, they're going to get him back again.
[46:51.590 --> 46:51.850]  Mm-hmm.
[46:52.130 --> 46:53.770]  And I think they would like that.
[46:54.010 --> 46:56.830]  I think they would like this to continue and say he just can't stop.
[46:57.050 --> 46:58.170]  There's no helping him.
[46:58.250 --> 47:02.810]  We try to be nice to him, but he just keeps making these horrible, you know, offenses.
[47:03.210 --> 47:06.370]  And when you look at what Kevin actually did, you know, people...
[47:06.370 --> 47:09.330]  It's very easy to say, oh, he's a multiple offender.
[47:09.330 --> 47:10.370]  He just doesn't learn.
[47:10.550 --> 47:11.630]  It's not that simple, folks.
[47:11.790 --> 47:17.570]  It's really not that simple because we're talking about someone who was labeled a fugitive when the evidence is there that he was not a fugitive.
[47:17.570 --> 47:19.230]  He was not on the run.
[47:19.410 --> 47:21.050]  He had completed his probation.
[47:21.310 --> 47:23.190]  They just wanted to get him.
[47:24.110 --> 47:28.610]  It's kind of weird how certain people are targeted, but he's one of those people.
[47:28.650 --> 47:36.490]  And if you just read the facts, go to the website and check out the various court motions, you'll see for yourself that he was not a fugitive.
[47:36.890 --> 47:43.230]  And that's the whole basis for this case is that Kevin was on the run and committing crimes and things like that.
[47:47.570 --> 47:50.190]  Well, how come those corporations have not reported the damage?
[47:50.190 --> 47:52.390]  They haven't reported the loss to their stockholders.
[47:52.590 --> 47:54.210]  80 million dollars, that's not insignificant.
[47:54.610 --> 48:00.450]  But, you know, I think they just pulled this number out of their butts or something because there's absolutely no evidence to suggest they lost a penny.
[48:00.870 --> 48:04.730]  Basically, he copied a program he was looking at some software, perhaps.
[48:05.090 --> 48:11.270]  He never distributed it, never sold it, never did anything really bad to it, and never profited in any way.
[48:11.430 --> 48:14.210]  So, how do you come up with this figure?
[48:14.370 --> 48:15.490]  80 million dollars was lost.
[48:15.490 --> 48:22.470]  I think they're adding in the development cost of the software, they're adding in the education of the people who wrote the software, their houses, their cars, whatever.
[48:22.730 --> 48:23.390]  It's just ridiculous.
[48:23.850 --> 48:32.770]  Well, at the sentencing stage, this is a really important point, Emmanuel, that those high dollar figures come into play, even though they're basically fictitious.
[48:32.970 --> 48:38.270]  But what happens is, at the sentencing stage, evidentiary rules do not apply.
[48:38.650 --> 48:47.670]  In other words, the government does not have to prove what dollar amount was actually lost by the alleged crime.
[48:47.670 --> 49:01.990]  In my case, I was told that my attorney said, listen, they know no actual fraud occurred, but they're saying potential fraud could have occurred with software that I was distributing, with hardware I was giving to people, that sort of thing.
[49:02.150 --> 49:17.490]  And they were going to use, at my sentencing stage, unless I pled guilty, they were going to say that this much fraud could have occurred with it, and we're going to use this theoretical dollar value amount to enhance your sentence significantly.
[49:17.490 --> 49:18.550]  We're talking years.
[49:18.690 --> 49:20.330]  I sense an analogy coming on by Isaac.
[49:20.730 --> 49:33.670]  Well, not necessarily an analogy, but they're basically trying to convict you of potential crimes that you may have possibly, on the outskirts of reality, committed, based on the stuff that they're trying to prosecute you for.
[49:33.870 --> 49:34.770]  Or thought crime, you know.
[49:35.130 --> 49:36.890]  Well, we won't go into thought crime.
[49:36.930 --> 49:41.690]  I know all this stuff sounds really ludicrous, but it really, really happens this way.
[49:42.670 --> 49:43.470]  It's unbelievable.
[49:43.830 --> 49:48.810]  It's like a cross between Alice in Wonderland and Franz Kafka.
[49:49.410 --> 49:50.250]  It's just...
[49:50.910 --> 49:52.210]  That's quite a cross there.
[49:53.010 --> 49:55.730]  Boy, that's a cross I haven't thought of before, but boy, that's a scary one.
[49:56.090 --> 50:06.870]  Well, and if you look at how huge the first 25-count indictment was, or the current 25-count indictment is, and then look at this supposed plea agreement, and they're willing to throw out 20 charges.
[50:07.130 --> 50:09.390]  So how bad could it have been in the first place?
[50:09.790 --> 50:16.650]  I know originally they were saying some incredibly long potential sentence, and now, oh, five years.
[50:17.430 --> 50:22.050]  Well, how many times was our friend the snitch re-apprehended?
[50:22.930 --> 50:24.550]  And what is he in for now?
[50:24.670 --> 50:25.190]  Six months?
[50:25.430 --> 50:26.350]  No, I think he's out now.
[50:26.830 --> 50:28.170]  I don't know if he's out or not.
[50:28.270 --> 50:30.590]  He was re-apprehended twice, and now he's out again?
[50:30.670 --> 50:36.230]  Yeah, well, you see, when you're labeled that way, you never stay in for very long.
[50:36.230 --> 50:38.310]  But, you know, I'm not calling for blood here.
[50:38.390 --> 50:41.970]  I'm not saying certain people have to be imprisoned, and, you know, we have to have stronger sentences.
[50:42.230 --> 50:43.850]  I think the whole thing is nonsense, really.
[50:43.950 --> 50:46.970]  Someone really shouldn't be in prison unless they're a dangerous threat to society.
[50:46.990 --> 50:49.630]  And Kevin never, ever fit that description.
[50:49.630 --> 50:51.030]  There was no reason for any of this.
[50:51.630 --> 50:52.870]  And it's time that it ended.
[50:52.950 --> 50:59.230]  And I think that's what we have to redefine exactly where it is that we're going here, because a lot of people are saying, okay, it's over.
[50:59.450 --> 51:00.430]  He's going to plead guilty.
[51:00.430 --> 51:02.830]  First of all, he has not pled guilty.
[51:03.050 --> 51:05.030]  The deal has not yet been accepted.
[51:05.150 --> 51:06.270]  It could be rejected.
[51:06.370 --> 51:08.110]  We could still have a trial on April 20th.
[51:08.510 --> 51:14.010]  But, assuming that it does get accepted, assuming that Kevin does plead guilty, where do we go from here?
[51:14.010 --> 51:18.170]  I think, I think our stand must remain the same, that Kevin has to be released.
[51:18.750 --> 51:23.750]  Even if he does agree to do whatever, it's not a fair agreement from his point of view.
[51:23.870 --> 51:26.250]  He's being forced into it, obviously, but it's not fair.
[51:26.250 --> 51:27.290]  He should be released.
[51:27.290 --> 51:29.890]  He should be out and living his life.
[51:29.890 --> 51:31.950]  He did not do anything to harm anybody.
[51:32.350 --> 51:34.730]  And this has gone on for far too long.
[51:34.730 --> 51:41.290]  And I believe we have to continue to maintain a lot of pressure to do this, no matter how unrealistic it may seem.
[51:42.430 --> 51:45.430]  I called you, Emmanuel, the night before my trial.
[51:46.190 --> 51:50.850]  And I said, Emmanuel, I was forced to make a deal with the devil.
[51:50.970 --> 51:51.110]  Right.
[51:51.130 --> 51:52.470]  I was expecting that call, to be honest.
[51:52.510 --> 51:54.010]  I was expecting this to happen as well.
[51:55.450 --> 51:57.190]  And that's exactly what it is.
[51:58.350 --> 52:01.010]  You're truly squeezed between two huge stones.
[52:01.450 --> 52:03.530]  And you don't have a choice.
[52:04.050 --> 52:04.810]  You don't.
[52:05.750 --> 52:07.630]  And that's the true injustice right there.
[52:07.830 --> 52:10.170]  That's what we have to tell people.
[52:11.430 --> 52:13.030]  And this is not just paranoia.
[52:13.330 --> 52:16.670]  We have evidence that people are in prison, that people are suffering.
[52:17.850 --> 52:22.130]  A lot of people out here listening may think, well, okay, this is abstract.
[52:22.130 --> 52:23.770]  It's never going to happen to me, whatever.
[52:24.670 --> 52:35.530]  What we're seeing here, and it's been a trend I've noticed over the past several years, especially with all these high-technology related statutes that are coming down.
[52:35.590 --> 52:36.970]  It's not high-technology, it's technology.
[52:37.210 --> 52:43.910]  Any legislation regarding telecommunications, computers, that sort of thing, first of all, they're not...
[52:43.910 --> 52:47.250]  they're written vague, vaguely, on purpose.
[52:47.370 --> 52:57.930]  And that was the basis of my Third Circuit appeal, that the statute I was charged with violating, that no one had ever been charged with before, was unconstitutionally vague.
[52:58.030 --> 53:07.710]  But you have all these statutes which can be so easily applied to almost anything related to just possessing a computer, not necessarily even doing anything with it.
[53:08.450 --> 53:19.430]  If the government wants to target a particular individual, what better tool than to have vague laws that can be applied to almost any circumstance?
[53:19.510 --> 53:21.370]  Not all of them are related to technology.
[53:21.650 --> 53:29.110]  Go out and pick a copy of West Publishing's Federal Criminal Code, Title 18.
[53:29.430 --> 53:32.790]  It's about a four-inch-thick book with really thin pages, I might add.
[53:33.490 --> 53:43.370]  I challenge anyone to go through that and not find numerous statutes that they themselves have not violated in one way or another throughout their life.
[53:43.530 --> 53:46.370]  I challenge anyone listening to go through that book.
[53:46.490 --> 53:47.330]  It's impossible.
[53:47.530 --> 53:48.210]  Porkchop, you're here.
[53:48.430 --> 53:48.950]  Hello.
[53:49.410 --> 54:00.650]  I found a section of New Jersey Code that, as it turned out, banned television sets in all the state of New Jersey because it could be used as a gambling thing.
[54:00.810 --> 54:06.930]  So if you're betting on horses, you better not own a television set because they'll just take it away and they'll throw you in prison for it.
[54:07.450 --> 54:08.670]  That makes them ludicrous.
[54:08.830 --> 54:09.970]  And people say, oh, that's ludicrous.
[54:09.990 --> 54:13.850]  Hey, I was charged with dispossessing hardware and software that was readily available.
[54:14.470 --> 54:17.730]  And in Kevin's case, I'm sure there's equally ludicrous examples.
[54:18.890 --> 54:35.170]  We're getting to the point now where there are so many laws out there, they're so vague, that what perfect tool is there for the government to use to basically, if they want somebody, they have a ready-made thing for them already to lock them up with.
[54:35.250 --> 54:37.050]  And it sounds paranoid, whatever.
[54:37.410 --> 54:37.990]  Get the book.
[54:38.350 --> 54:39.210]  Read it yourself.
[54:39.730 --> 54:40.510]  Make up your own mind.
[54:40.590 --> 54:41.450]  You'll see what I'm talking about.
[54:41.690 --> 54:43.570]  Now, oh, now that noise right there.
[54:43.690 --> 54:44.110]  Wait a second.
[54:44.210 --> 54:46.390]  That's very bad what Porsche is doing now.
[54:46.490 --> 54:48.150]  You have a deck of playing cards now.
[54:48.150 --> 54:49.330]  I'm breaking the law right now.
[54:49.450 --> 54:49.890]  Come and get me.
[54:50.150 --> 54:50.770]  Wait a second.
[54:50.930 --> 54:52.450]  You're not a New York citizen either.
[54:52.450 --> 54:52.670]  Are you?
[54:52.770 --> 54:54.010]  Yeah, this is interstate.
[54:54.390 --> 54:54.610]  I'm Jersey.
[54:54.790 --> 54:55.630]  So this is federal.
[54:55.830 --> 54:57.390]  This becomes a federal crime.
[54:57.670 --> 54:57.730]  Federal case.
[54:57.930 --> 54:58.630]  Over the Hudson River.
[54:58.790 --> 54:59.150]  That's incredible.
[54:59.350 --> 55:00.670]  It's a very serious business here.
[55:00.830 --> 55:05.590]  Well, I think basically we have to fade out right about now because obviously we're committing federal crimes and we don't want it well.
[55:06.490 --> 55:10.650]  We have to hit the road before the feds find out where we are even though we know that we're at 120 Wall Street.
[55:10.730 --> 55:11.590]  Well, it takes some time to get here.
[55:11.670 --> 55:13.710]  It takes time to find the place and to get by the doorman.
[55:13.970 --> 55:14.370]  I'll run.
[55:15.930 --> 55:16.930]  But God bless him.
[55:17.010 --> 55:17.910]  Who is the doorman, by the way?
[55:17.950 --> 55:18.470]  I don't know.
[55:18.470 --> 55:19.590]  I'm going to ask him his name for now.
[55:19.710 --> 55:20.070]  He's changed.
[55:20.450 --> 55:24.430]  Bernie and Mackie, I want to thank you very much for being part of this because we are out of time now.
[55:24.550 --> 55:25.530]  But any closing thoughts?
[55:25.970 --> 55:27.150]  It just makes me sick.
[55:27.330 --> 55:33.290]  I feel, literally, I feel nauseous bringing all this stuff up again, reliving it again vicariously through Kevin's situation.
[55:33.470 --> 55:35.470]  It's just, it's sickening.
[55:35.590 --> 55:41.270]  I'm literally sick to my stomach having to go through this again talking to other people about this.
[55:41.330 --> 55:42.110]  People better wake up.
[55:42.270 --> 55:43.410]  This is not a joke.
[55:44.530 --> 55:45.430]  Very well said.
[55:45.570 --> 55:46.210]  Very well said.
[55:46.330 --> 55:50.110]  I feel the sickness that you feel as well because I've seen this happen so many times.
[55:50.190 --> 55:51.070]  Mackie, anything you have to say?
[55:51.710 --> 55:55.470]  Just, you know, people should remember he hasn't pledged yet.
[55:55.790 --> 55:59.370]  And when he does, it really, you know, the trial could go on that long anyway.
[55:59.370 --> 56:01.690]  So it really is the prudent thing to do.
[56:02.390 --> 56:04.090]  And I think we all stand by him.
[56:04.730 --> 56:04.990]  Okay.
[56:06.150 --> 56:07.850]  Isaac Porkchop, any closing thoughts?
[56:08.370 --> 56:09.250]  The U.S.
[56:09.370 --> 56:12.890]  Code, all, however many titles there are, is actually online.
[56:12.890 --> 56:16.630]  You can find it at thomas.loc.gov.
[56:16.870 --> 56:20.570]  L-O-C being the Library of Congress, Thomas being Thomas Jefferson.
[56:20.890 --> 56:22.850]  A lot of people don't know that it's named after Thomas Jefferson.
[56:22.930 --> 56:26.510]  Yes, I was rather startled by somebody approaching me with that.
[56:26.610 --> 56:28.790]  But yes, you can find the entire thing.
[56:29.030 --> 56:33.830]  You can also search any engine for basically certain sections of the code.
[56:33.990 --> 56:36.110]  And do read through it because Bernie is absolutely right.
[56:36.250 --> 56:38.850]  They are so openly vague that they could...
[56:38.850 --> 56:40.930]  It's basically how much do they want to get you?
[56:42.350 --> 56:49.330]  I'd be very interested in seeing exactly how many things I do every day is illegal just to find out what it is.
[56:49.450 --> 56:50.610]  Oh, you may find out.
[56:50.850 --> 56:51.910]  Yeah, I might find out.
[56:51.970 --> 56:53.130]  But I mean, I drive a car.
[56:53.250 --> 56:53.850]  I've got a license.
[56:54.810 --> 56:55.650]  Is that illegal?
[56:55.830 --> 56:56.490]  I'm sure it is.
[56:56.750 --> 57:00.490]  Somewhere probably emitting the gases that come out of the exhaust.
[57:00.510 --> 57:01.810]  That's got to be illegal somewhere.
[57:02.250 --> 57:05.110]  And this selective prosecution thing, it does exist right now.
[57:05.630 --> 57:06.750]  People shouldn't be...
[57:06.750 --> 57:10.270]  They shouldn't convince themselves that it's not because it really exists.
[57:10.490 --> 57:14.850]  It's not enforced right now, but if the government wants you to go down, down you go.
[57:15.330 --> 57:15.690]  All right.
[57:16.190 --> 57:17.630]  Thanks so much for coming in.
[57:17.690 --> 57:34.830]  In the spirit of naming a computer after Thomas Jefferson down there in the Capitol, maybe one day we'll name one of the computers here at WBAI, something that brings things out over the network, freedom of speech, diversity of ideals, ideas and ideals,
[57:35.490 --> 57:38.650]  and just a never-ending quest to just learn.
[57:38.930 --> 57:40.970]  Maybe we'll name a computer after Samori Marksman.
[57:41.610 --> 57:42.530]  May he rest in peace.
[57:42.810 --> 57:44.510]  We'll see you again next week.
[57:44.770 --> 57:45.030]  Good night.
[57:51.830 --> 58:13.550]  The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself off shaving Now I can't make a call It's getting yet much worse But if they could, they would Then they're wrong For the best to speak For the worst I hope they've done this good But they're wrong
[58:27.170 --> 58:44.470]  We can never be satisfied As long as the Negro as the victim of the unspeakable horrors of police brutality I love the New York City Police Department No Yes, there's brutality We want to fight it We want to end it No, we are not satisfied He