[00:30.390 --> 00:38.530]  And you are listening to Radio Station WBAI in New York, where the off-the-hook theme has momentarily gone away.
[00:38.990 --> 00:40.790]  So, uh, are we going to play this?
[00:40.870 --> 00:41.190]  What's this?
[00:41.890 --> 00:43.730]  Oh, we're going to play this and see what it is.
[00:44.490 --> 00:49.550]  We're using the internet to remember Samori Marksman, and we need your help.
[00:49.830 --> 00:59.510]  We want your memories, your stories, your remembrances of somebody who influenced everybody here and also in the larger community so very deeply.
[00:59.790 --> 01:01.910]  We've also got some audio.
[01:02.230 --> 01:08.570]  Well, just come and listen to the shows and to everybody else's memories and sayings.
[01:09.370 --> 01:25.010]  www.dslprime.com slash samori Moving soon to samori.net That's dslprime.com slash samori Add your thoughts.
[01:25.870 --> 01:28.890]  It's an enormous loss for all of us.
[01:37.670 --> 01:50.750]  The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a cough It couldn't get much worse
[02:38.380 --> 02:39.620]  And a good evening to everybody.
[02:39.620 --> 02:40.720]  The program is Off The Hook.
[02:41.640 --> 02:43.570]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Tuesday night.
[02:45.560 --> 02:48.840]  And we have some important items to update people on.
[02:50.940 --> 02:51.780]  Stay tuned.
[03:11.450 --> 03:15.070]  And love has been given to thrive and enjoy.
[03:15.430 --> 03:16.770]  So let's all cry.
[03:17.230 --> 03:18.450]  And let's all enjoy.
[03:25.460 --> 03:26.680]  It's a kiss.
[03:27.160 --> 03:28.380]  Are you naughty?
[03:29.000 --> 03:32.160]  Then we'll never fade and boil it.
[03:32.840 --> 03:33.780]  It's a kiss.
[03:34.780 --> 03:35.540]  Are you naughty?
[03:36.200 --> 03:38.580]  Then we'll never fix.
[03:46.860 --> 03:48.680]  Take a look around you.
[03:48.960 --> 03:50.180]  What do you see?
[03:50.680 --> 03:53.500]  Since we're feeling like you and me.
[03:53.560 --> 03:55.480]  Understand him.
[03:55.740 --> 03:57.220]  He'll understand you.
[03:57.520 --> 03:59.020]  For you are him.
[03:59.260 --> 04:00.740]  And he is you.
[04:07.980 --> 04:08.820]  In the case.
[04:09.460 --> 04:10.640]  Are you naughty?
[04:11.200 --> 04:14.420]  Then we'll never fade and boil it.
[04:14.940 --> 04:16.060]  In the case.
[04:16.640 --> 04:17.860]  Are you naughty?
[04:18.440 --> 04:21.560]  Then we'll never fade and boil it.
[04:51.880 --> 04:53.300]  Are you naughty?
[04:53.820 --> 04:57.080]  Then we'll never fade and boil it.
[04:57.780 --> 04:58.740]  In the case.
[04:59.540 --> 05:00.560]  Are you naughty?
[05:01.180 --> 05:04.240]  Then we'll never fade and boil it.
[05:12.940 --> 05:15.260]  Well, we get the idea of Sham 69 there.
[05:16.620 --> 05:17.760]  Unity is everything.
[05:17.980 --> 05:20.140]  Unity is really the only thing that matters.
[05:20.640 --> 05:23.700]  Sticking together for what you really believe in.
[05:24.400 --> 05:26.960]  And that's kind of what we talk about here on Off The Hook.
[05:26.960 --> 05:27.820]  Week after week.
[05:28.060 --> 05:29.280]  Year after year, in fact.
[05:29.480 --> 05:30.500]  I was going over some old shows.
[05:30.660 --> 05:33.720]  And, boy, it's amazing what we've been through together.
[05:33.720 --> 05:38.960]  But, you know, I went through something that I think a lot of other people didn't go through last week.
[05:38.960 --> 05:42.560]  And I've got to tell you, it wasn't exactly what I expected.
[05:43.860 --> 05:45.320]  What do you think I'm talking about?
[05:45.440 --> 05:47.180]  I'm talking about getting arrested, of course.
[05:47.720 --> 05:50.580]  Yeah, it's the latest fad in New York City, getting arrested.
[05:51.000 --> 05:53.920]  But it was for a very important cause.
[05:54.940 --> 05:56.500]  And I'm pretty happy I did it.
[05:56.580 --> 06:06.860]  Now, actually, of course, when a hacker goes and gets himself arrested for a social cause, things obviously aren't going to be the same as when average people get arrested.
[06:06.860 --> 06:08.400]  If average people ever do get arrested.
[06:09.020 --> 06:16.880]  So, of course, the first thing I did when I got arrested, or as I was in the process of getting arrested, was...
[06:17.580 --> 06:18.560]  Play with the phone.
[06:20.160 --> 06:20.980]  Yeah, it's true.
[06:21.660 --> 06:23.860]  I had two cellular phones on me.
[06:24.760 --> 06:32.420]  And I managed to figure out a way to get access, even while I was in handcuffs.
[06:33.060 --> 06:36.080]  Yeah, it's pretty scary, pretty pathetic, too, when you think of it.
[06:37.400 --> 06:39.820]  Okay, what I'm doing right now is I'm calling up my voicemail.
[06:42.160 --> 06:48.300]  And once I do that, I'll connect into the messages I recorded while the rally was going on on Friday.
[06:48.300 --> 06:56.200]  This is the rally to protest the police, a shooting of Amadou Diallo 41 times in early February.
[06:56.200 --> 07:09.100]  For those of you who are out of the area, might not know anything about New York City, or those of you who are in New York City who might just be coming out of your comas now, Well, there was an incident in early February where an innocent man...
[07:09.100 --> 07:10.340]  Hey, nobody's in right now.
[07:10.400 --> 07:11.840]  All right, let's put in...
[07:11.840 --> 07:12.460]  Please don't press that button.
[07:12.580 --> 07:13.120]  I'm sorry.
[07:13.320 --> 07:13.900]  Please don't press that button.
[07:14.040 --> 07:20.100]  Let's put in the passcode and get to the message part, so we'll have some actual background to this.
[07:22.320 --> 07:23.500]  Did I enter the right password?
[07:23.500 --> 07:25.760]  No new messages.
[07:26.240 --> 07:27.780]  Two saved messages.
[07:27.980 --> 07:28.160]  Okay.
[07:28.840 --> 07:33.240]  These two saved messages were recorded while things were hitting the fan.
[07:33.520 --> 07:38.040]  March 26th at 12.50, 9 p.m.
[07:38.540 --> 07:38.880]  All right.
[07:39.240 --> 07:40.320]  This was...
[07:40.320 --> 07:44.600]  While the rally was going on outside one police plaza,
[07:47.770 --> 07:51.970]  and the arrests were just starting to happen at this point, and people had...
[07:51.970 --> 08:00.950]  Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson had just walked by, and people were not actually sitting in front of police plaza.
[08:01.090 --> 08:05.350]  They sat down for a moment, but then after they sat down, they stood up.
[08:05.510 --> 08:07.030]  Everyone just stood up, and you know what they did?
[08:07.110 --> 08:08.970]  They filed towards the door.
[08:09.610 --> 08:11.930]  It's like, you know, yeah, enter the door to get arrested.
[08:12.010 --> 08:15.930]  There was no police picking you up and cuffing you.
[08:15.990 --> 08:16.650]  No, you walked in.
[08:16.790 --> 08:17.330]  It was very orderly.
[08:17.330 --> 08:23.690]  In fact, while we were standing at the door, the cops were requesting certain people.
[08:23.790 --> 08:25.430]  They said, we need another male here.
[08:25.510 --> 08:26.470]  We need two females.
[08:26.590 --> 08:27.650]  Can we get two females now?
[08:27.750 --> 08:27.990]  Okay.
[08:28.110 --> 08:28.750]  Thank you very much.
[08:29.410 --> 08:30.690]  We'll get to you in just a moment, sir.
[08:30.810 --> 08:32.570]  Yeah, you'll be arrested in just a couple of moments.
[08:32.630 --> 08:33.170]  Please be patient.
[08:33.590 --> 08:37.170]  Now, the thing is, I didn't realize I was in the wrong place.
[08:37.210 --> 08:39.610]  I was where the rally was taking place, where all the people were chanting.
[08:42.510 --> 08:45.530]  And I wasn't in the right place to get arrested, and I wanted to get arrested.
[08:45.530 --> 08:51.470]  But there was a big police barricade preventing me from getting over to the point where you'd get arrested.
[08:51.710 --> 08:52.910]  It was pretty frustrating.
[08:53.090 --> 08:58.110]  So I had to sneak under the police barricade to get to the point where I could be arrested.
[08:58.130 --> 08:58.770]  And I was afraid.
[08:59.050 --> 09:03.210]  I was afraid while I was doing this, while I was going under the barricade, not knowing what I was going to...
[09:03.210 --> 09:03.970]  Was I going to get arrested?
[09:04.170 --> 09:08.150]  Would I be treated differently than the people who were getting arrested for blocking the police plaza?
[09:08.170 --> 09:11.190]  Because I was going to get arrested for climbing a police barricade.
[09:11.250 --> 09:11.590]  I don't know.
[09:11.590 --> 09:12.730]  Maybe they treat people differently.
[09:12.950 --> 09:14.710]  But it all ended happily.
[09:14.910 --> 09:16.930]  I climbed under the police barricade.
[09:16.990 --> 09:17.510]  Nobody noticed.
[09:17.650 --> 09:23.850]  And then I merged with the crowd that was getting arrested, as crowds have done now for, I think, the past 16 days.
[09:25.030 --> 09:28.430]  Friday, we brought it over to over a total of 1,000 people.
[09:28.670 --> 09:30.410]  Now, you may ask, what's the point?
[09:30.810 --> 09:32.870]  What's the point of going out there and getting yourself arrested?
[09:33.030 --> 09:35.250]  Well, the point is to make a statement.
[09:35.250 --> 09:40.490]  The point is to actually put yourself where your mouth is.
[09:40.730 --> 09:44.190]  You know, put your body where your mouth is, if that even makes any sense.
[09:45.070 --> 09:47.070]  Because it's one thing to talk about injustice.
[09:47.070 --> 09:56.330]  It's another thing to be able to be willing to stand up and sacrifice a bit of yourself to speak a little louder, to say, hey, this is wrong.
[09:56.670 --> 09:58.690]  And no matter how you look at it, it is wrong.
[09:58.850 --> 10:01.110]  It is wrong for someone to be shot 41 times.
[10:03.070 --> 10:06.230]  Now, especially if they're innocent, or, you know, even if they're guilty.
[10:06.370 --> 10:06.750]  I don't know.
[10:06.890 --> 10:08.650]  It's a crazy thing.
[10:08.850 --> 10:12.350]  And how anybody can justify something like that is beyond me.
[10:13.150 --> 10:14.510]  But people do justify it.
[10:14.570 --> 10:18.850]  The police have not really spoken out against it at all, as far as I can see.
[10:18.930 --> 10:26.010]  The mayor has been absolutely abysmal here in New York, as far as not addressing the needs of the people.
[10:26.530 --> 10:31.310]  So, this is real social unrest that's been going on the last few weeks.
[10:31.510 --> 10:32.090]  It's building up.
[10:32.250 --> 10:37.370]  Today was actually the first day there wasn't a protest, because the indictments are scheduled to be unsealed tomorrow.
[10:37.950 --> 10:41.370]  The protests actually have moved to the courthouses.
[10:43.470 --> 10:47.150]  And I think this is the point where they started to process us.
[10:47.150 --> 10:48.950]  As you can see, I'm no longer inside.
[10:53.000 --> 11:02.500]  As we walked into the building, the first thing that happened, the first thing that happened was, we had our pictures taken.
[11:02.700 --> 11:09.100]  Well, there was a guy there with a huge camera, a huge SVHS camera, that was taking videos of the whole thing.
[11:09.120 --> 11:11.240]  And he seemed particularly taken with me for some reason.
[11:11.280 --> 11:12.960]  He just kept pointing the damn thing at me.
[11:13.000 --> 11:15.840]  And I kept smiling and waving and whatever it was he wanted me to do.
[11:16.600 --> 11:20.260]  But I thought he was supposed to film everybody that was coming in the door, not just one person.
[11:20.400 --> 11:23.780]  But maybe there was one camera person for every person that got arrested.
[11:23.780 --> 11:24.240]  I don't know.
[11:26.020 --> 11:30.440]  But I wanted to tell him, hey, you know, SVHS, that's old technology.
[11:30.440 --> 11:31.520]  You really should go digital.
[11:31.660 --> 11:34.260]  You should go DV and use something like that.
[11:34.260 --> 11:35.340]  You get much better clarity.
[11:35.340 --> 11:39.240]  But I never got the chance, because that's about the time where I started getting cuffed.
[11:39.240 --> 11:42.980]  And you get cuffed with these plastic handcuffs when you're...
[11:42.980 --> 11:43.400]  Oh.
[11:44.480 --> 11:46.280]  To save, press 9.
[11:46.480 --> 11:47.560]  Okay, that's the end of that one.
[11:48.960 --> 11:50.360]  We're going to skip to the next message.
[11:50.800 --> 11:53.680]  And this is where I was actually in cuffs.
[11:54.100 --> 11:58.320]  March 26th at 1.05 p.m.
[11:58.320 --> 12:01.120]  Do you know how hard it is to make a phone call when you're in cuffs?
[12:02.060 --> 12:03.000]  It's very difficult.
[12:04.480 --> 12:09.560]  But I believe this was the point where we started introducing ourselves to fellow prisoners.
[12:10.860 --> 12:12.400]  Other people who were standing around.
[12:14.620 --> 12:15.060]  Yeah.
[12:16.820 --> 12:19.840]  The people that we'd be hanging out with for the rest of the day, in fact.
[12:21.740 --> 12:26.060]  So what happened at this point was they led us down a staircase.
[12:26.500 --> 12:29.040]  First of all, there were all these people standing on a balcony watching us.
[12:29.060 --> 12:30.300]  I imagine they were police employees.
[12:31.820 --> 12:33.820]  And a bunch of us started singing songs.
[12:34.180 --> 12:35.900]  You know, we shall overcome, that kind of thing.
[12:36.820 --> 12:38.840]  And it was really a positive experience.
[12:38.920 --> 12:39.740]  Though it's still scary.
[12:39.940 --> 12:43.100]  Still a bit scary because, hey, you know, now we're in the belly of the beast, so to say.
[12:43.360 --> 12:44.880]  You know, we're protesting against the police.
[12:45.040 --> 12:46.420]  And now we're in the custody of the police.
[12:46.560 --> 12:48.020]  Uh-oh, that could be a big problem.
[12:48.820 --> 12:50.220]  But there was strength in numbers.
[12:50.220 --> 12:53.480]  And there were certainly a lot of numbers as they led us all away.
[12:53.600 --> 12:58.840]  Now, they gripped us into parties of six.
[12:59.700 --> 13:01.940]  I don't know why six was the magic number, but that's what it was.
[13:02.020 --> 13:03.060]  And I happened to be number six.
[13:03.180 --> 13:04.240]  I happened to be the last person.
[13:04.340 --> 13:12.640]  So as they were leading us down the staircase, I had a cop in back of me that was sort of like, you know, giving me that little push that they give you when they're leading you.
[13:12.720 --> 13:15.960]  Like, you know, you're going to forget what direction to go in if they don't keep pushing you.
[13:15.960 --> 13:23.420]  The problem was he kept pushing me into the guy in front of me, making me step on his feet.
[13:23.520 --> 13:24.740]  You know, he was pushing me a little too hard.
[13:24.820 --> 13:29.280]  And I was, you know, I didn't want to resist because, you know, resisting arrest, that's probably a bad thing.
[13:29.580 --> 13:32.000]  But I also didn't want to step on the guy's foot in front of me.
[13:32.080 --> 13:37.720]  So it was kind of an awkward position as we went down the staircase into whatever it is that was down there.
[13:37.720 --> 13:47.040]  And when we got down there, I saw a whole bunch of boxes of posters that they put up all over the neighborhood saying, hey, this is a neighborhood watch community or whatever.
[13:47.380 --> 13:49.740]  All the police propaganda posters, that's where they keep them.
[13:50.060 --> 13:53.500]  I was thinking of snatching one, but probably wouldn't be able to get away with it.
[13:54.000 --> 13:54.600]  I don't know.
[13:55.500 --> 13:56.880]  I regret not doing that now.
[13:57.000 --> 14:04.100]  But they led us into this, what seemed to be like a holding cell, because it got noticeably colder.
[14:04.120 --> 14:06.140]  As soon as we walked in there, it got really, really cold.
[14:06.140 --> 14:11.160]  And there were these benches inside these cells.
[14:11.220 --> 14:13.740]  And every single one of the cells had a big payphone in it.
[14:13.780 --> 14:15.100]  So it was kind of a weird thing.
[14:15.240 --> 14:17.640]  And I really wanted to use the payphone and see what number it was.
[14:18.360 --> 14:19.500]  But they didn't keep us there.
[14:19.560 --> 14:21.580]  They kept us moving to the loading dock.
[14:21.860 --> 14:23.100]  That's right, the loading dock.
[14:23.240 --> 14:24.520]  They were sending us out.
[14:24.680 --> 14:29.240]  They were sending us away from one police plaza.
[14:30.440 --> 14:33.000]  And that was the point where I started to call my friends.
[14:33.000 --> 14:37.980]  Now, it's really hard to make phone calls when you have your hands tied behind you.
[14:37.980 --> 14:38.940]  But I managed to do it.
[14:41.420 --> 14:46.760]  And it actually worked out pretty well until one of my nitwitted friends decided to call me back.
[14:46.760 --> 14:47.780]  And then the phone rang.
[14:47.800 --> 14:49.320]  And everybody was aware that I had a phone.
[14:49.360 --> 14:51.460]  And one of the officers made me turn it off.
[14:51.540 --> 14:52.840]  But he didn't know that I had a second phone.
[14:53.500 --> 14:57.760]  And that's the one that I used to send email to people once they put us in the paddy wagon.
[14:57.840 --> 15:00.220]  Before they put us in the paddy wagon, though, I noticed something very interesting.
[15:01.380 --> 15:07.820]  Standing in the cells while we were waiting for the paddy wagon to pull up.
[15:08.080 --> 15:12.940]  And that was a bunch of stickers in one of the cells saying things like, Straight is stupid.
[15:14.720 --> 15:16.020]  Silence equals death.
[15:16.240 --> 15:18.340]  And I'm a St. Paddy's Day queen.
[15:18.520 --> 15:19.040]  And things like that.
[15:19.120 --> 15:19.900]  And I said, oh, cool.
[15:20.020 --> 15:20.900]  Act Up was here.
[15:22.040 --> 15:24.120]  That's the remnants from the St. Patrick's Day parade.
[15:24.140 --> 15:25.520]  Apparently they were held in this cell.
[15:25.600 --> 15:27.300]  And they stickered up the place really nicely.
[15:27.980 --> 15:31.420]  And the cops, I guess, just never felt like taking it down for whatever reason.
[15:32.020 --> 15:33.240]  So that was a bit of amusement.
[15:33.440 --> 15:34.620]  We stood there for a little while.
[15:35.080 --> 15:36.980]  Then they put us in the paddy wagon.
[15:37.080 --> 15:40.660]  And friends, that is an experience being put in a paddy wagon.
[15:41.400 --> 15:43.180]  They're these big blue and white trucks.
[15:43.340 --> 15:46.380]  You might not realize it, but they're about the size of Entenmann's trucks.
[15:46.560 --> 15:47.880]  You know, the big things.
[15:48.500 --> 15:51.320]  And they stick people in these trucks.
[15:52.000 --> 15:53.900]  There's two benches opposite each other.
[15:55.160 --> 16:02.120]  And they have what I can only consider to be a first class and a second class section.
[16:02.240 --> 16:10.820]  The first class section seems to be where they keep, I guess, the most dangerous people because there's a little door that you can close and they have their own little section there.
[16:10.880 --> 16:13.800]  And then there's the bigger section that everybody else gets put in.
[16:13.800 --> 16:15.840]  And I happened to be put in the very...
[16:15.840 --> 16:16.980]  I was always last for some reason.
[16:17.060 --> 16:19.520]  I happened to be put in the very last seat.
[16:19.720 --> 16:21.120]  So I was sitting right by the door.
[16:21.280 --> 16:25.460]  I could look out the crack of the door and see the real people out there.
[16:25.560 --> 16:26.740]  It was really kind of neat.
[16:26.780 --> 16:34.240]  As they drove us down the FDR Drive, which I never realized how bumpy it was until I was sitting in the back of a paddy wagon.
[16:34.600 --> 16:41.140]  There were times when you'd hit a bump and everybody, there were about 12 people in the van, would fly up into the air.
[16:41.140 --> 16:43.620]  It was really kind of scary and I'm amazed we didn't get hurt.
[16:43.800 --> 16:46.680]  But eventually we made it.
[16:47.540 --> 16:49.940]  All the way up to the 28th Precinct.
[16:51.060 --> 16:52.500]  The 28th Precinct.
[16:52.540 --> 16:56.560]  Now the 28th Precinct, in case you don't know, is in the middle of Harlem.
[16:57.400 --> 17:02.960]  And inside this precinct, they've got a little notice on the wall.
[17:03.460 --> 17:07.720]  The notice says, This is the most dangerous precinct in New York City.
[17:08.100 --> 17:08.840]  That's right.
[17:09.760 --> 17:15.380]  When you serve here, you're serving with pride because you're serving at great risk, etc., etc.
[17:15.780 --> 17:21.920]  You may notice that people here don't like cops all that much, but those are just the addicts.
[17:22.080 --> 17:22.940]  Those are just the addicts.
[17:23.020 --> 17:25.640]  There are a lot of hardworking people here, and those are the people who are here to serve.
[17:26.000 --> 17:28.480]  Those are the ones that really appreciate what you do.
[17:28.660 --> 17:30.640]  But it's the addicts that are causing all the trouble.
[17:31.160 --> 17:34.000]  It was really kind of a weird thing to put up on the wall.
[17:34.000 --> 17:42.080]  It was typewritten, and apparently it was written in 1973, but somebody had written underneath it that was valid then, and it's just as valid today.
[17:43.060 --> 17:51.260]  And I guess that's the way they look at things up there in the 28th Precinct, which, by the way, the 28th Precinct, I don't know if you know this, has a cat.
[17:51.580 --> 17:57.520]  That's right, they have a cat that wanders around and stares at the prisoners as they wait to be processed.
[17:57.520 --> 18:05.940]  Now, we waited, we were the males, we waited in the front room by where the, I guess, officers standing behind the desk are.
[18:06.720 --> 18:13.340]  And there was a whole room of females who had been booked earlier, like ten times as many people, and they were having a party.
[18:13.440 --> 18:18.360]  Everybody was singing and dancing and speaking and eating food and all kinds of things like that.
[18:18.400 --> 18:22.540]  We had to sit on this bench and just sort of stare straight ahead.
[18:22.540 --> 18:26.840]  We had this one rather bitchy woman who wouldn't let us do anything.
[18:26.840 --> 18:30.240]  She kept looking at us and saying, you know, sir, you must sit down.
[18:30.340 --> 18:31.100]  You cannot stand up.
[18:31.240 --> 18:31.960]  You are the prisoner.
[18:31.960 --> 18:32.600]  I am the cop.
[18:32.700 --> 18:33.380]  You must sit down.
[18:33.500 --> 18:34.100]  Do not do this.
[18:34.680 --> 18:35.960]  She was the only one who was really like that.
[18:36.040 --> 18:37.100]  She didn't last very long.
[18:37.620 --> 18:47.220]  The other people were kind of nice, and they kind of went back and forth and undid our handcuffs after a while, which really start to hurt, especially when you try to make phone calls with them.
[18:47.620 --> 18:49.260]  They really start to hurt quite a bit.
[18:51.080 --> 18:54.660]  So we had to stay there for about four or five hours.
[18:55.240 --> 18:56.400]  It was pretty scary.
[18:56.400 --> 18:57.080]  It really was.
[18:57.540 --> 19:03.900]  Because it's one thing to be held, you know, as a prisoner.
[19:03.900 --> 19:07.280]  But when you realize what that actually means, it means you can't leave.
[19:07.280 --> 19:08.220]  You're stuck there.
[19:08.360 --> 19:09.620]  You cannot move.
[19:10.840 --> 19:14.400]  And how bad can it possibly be when it's a hostile environment?
[19:14.400 --> 19:16.620]  This was not necessarily a hostile environment.
[19:16.620 --> 19:20.760]  They held us there because they had to.
[19:21.320 --> 19:23.080]  They didn't say anything critical to us.
[19:23.120 --> 19:26.240]  They didn't say that we were bad people or anything like that.
[19:26.240 --> 19:30.740]  But we were still not free to go, and it's kind of a scary thing.
[19:32.200 --> 19:33.620]  But the people were nice.
[19:33.960 --> 19:38.820]  You know, I'm sitting there in the 28th precinct saying, Hey, here I am, the worst precinct in the whole city.
[19:39.520 --> 19:40.720]  And the cops here really...
[19:40.720 --> 19:42.260]  I mean, they were regular people.
[19:42.520 --> 19:43.500]  You know, all different colors.
[19:43.920 --> 19:45.980]  You know, some of them were not even old enough to shave.
[19:46.340 --> 19:50.280]  And they had really, you know, nice personalities, it seemed.
[19:50.360 --> 19:55.060]  And I realized to myself, I was saying to myself, Boy, these guys aren't the enemy.
[19:55.680 --> 19:57.160]  They're just regular people.
[19:58.680 --> 20:00.700]  They're just regular, normal people.
[20:04.000 --> 20:08.660]  And that's when I realized that that was something I really had to work on.
[20:11.180 --> 20:14.200]  Recognizing where the enemy actually is.
[20:17.320 --> 20:25.660]  What would have happened if this was the precinct where that poor guy got tortured with a plunger?
[20:26.160 --> 20:35.120]  Or, conversely, was the precinct where he got tortured, similar to this one, with nice people who you could never imagine doing something evil.
[20:36.700 --> 20:41.260]  And where were these people when there was injustice going on?
[20:41.320 --> 20:44.920]  How come they weren't down there at one police plaza protesting along with us?
[20:46.660 --> 20:48.220]  Yeah, they're nice people.
[20:50.200 --> 20:53.780]  But they're blinding themselves to reality, to justice.
[20:55.580 --> 20:58.620]  And I think that's what the real lesson here is.
[20:58.920 --> 21:08.800]  When you have an allegiance to something, when you have some sort of a code that you must maintain, you just close your eyes to what's going on around you.
[21:09.360 --> 21:12.380]  And it didn't take long for that to manifest itself.
[21:12.900 --> 21:19.040]  Because one of the people that was with us decided not to cooperate 100%.
[21:19.600 --> 21:24.900]  He'd written down his name, but the sergeant who was there wanted him to say his name.
[21:25.000 --> 21:25.900]  And he didn't want to say his name.
[21:25.920 --> 21:28.400]  I don't know what the reason was, but there was a reason he didn't want to say his name.
[21:29.960 --> 21:32.440]  So, right away, you had this battle of wills.
[21:34.320 --> 21:38.600]  Where, all of a sudden, there were these three cops surrounding him saying, Sir, you must say your name.
[21:38.880 --> 21:40.520]  And he just wouldn't say his name.
[21:40.640 --> 21:41.340]  He'd already written it.
[21:41.360 --> 21:42.520]  He just didn't want to say it.
[21:44.620 --> 21:45.900]  And they were surrounding him.
[21:46.440 --> 21:47.780]  They said sir all the time.
[21:47.880 --> 21:50.660]  So I guess they got that problem licked, you know, as far as not saying sir enough.
[21:50.780 --> 21:51.540]  They got that down.
[21:51.660 --> 21:52.840]  They say sir all the time.
[21:53.060 --> 21:59.420]  But they still put real handcuffs on him, took all his property, and put him in a real cell.
[22:01.000 --> 22:02.380]  Because he wouldn't say his name.
[22:05.260 --> 22:10.280]  So the niceness goes so far, and then the duty takes over.
[22:10.720 --> 22:13.840]  And that's what you have to be alert about.
[22:16.860 --> 22:21.800]  It's a sad fact of life, but you have to know about it.
[22:22.140 --> 22:29.140]  You have to know that there are a lot of injustices out there, and you have to stand up for them.
[22:29.140 --> 22:31.160]  And it involves getting arrested sometimes.
[22:31.160 --> 22:33.620]  It involves seeing unpleasant things sometimes.
[22:33.620 --> 22:38.600]  It involves turning your values over... head over heels.
[22:41.240 --> 22:44.040]  Because it's not always as obvious as it seems.
[22:45.440 --> 22:53.400]  I remember a few years ago, when I was wandering around Belgrade in Yugoslavia, which was bigger then.
[22:53.740 --> 22:55.280]  It's a bigger country than it is now.
[22:55.280 --> 23:01.540]  So, I was thinking to myself, you know, these people are nice people.
[23:02.120 --> 23:03.480]  They look just like us.
[23:05.580 --> 23:07.660]  They laugh and they talk just like us.
[23:08.160 --> 23:12.380]  And true, there's a war going on in Bosnia, just a few miles away.
[23:13.520 --> 23:14.940]  But hey, these people aren't the enemy.
[23:15.080 --> 23:17.020]  They're not the ones doing the evil things.
[23:18.300 --> 23:19.500]  They're not the bad people.
[23:19.500 --> 23:19.520]  Well,
[23:23.250 --> 23:35.950]  if you stay silent about something that you know is going on, if you try to justify something by ignoring the facts, by closing your eyes to reality, then silence is death.
[23:37.130 --> 23:40.790]  And you're as guilty as the person who actually is committing the crime.
[23:44.950 --> 23:47.010]  And that's really where it all boils down to.
[23:52.830 --> 23:54.370]  So, I've got my summons here.
[23:55.950 --> 24:00.030]  And on April 30th, I've got to appear in front of somebody, someplace.
[24:00.830 --> 24:01.530]  Oh, look at this.
[24:01.570 --> 24:02.310]  I have to go to police plaza.
[24:02.370 --> 24:03.090]  No, it's not police plaza.
[24:03.170 --> 24:04.390]  I have to go to 346 Broadway.
[24:05.110 --> 24:06.750]  I've been charged with disorderly conduct.
[24:06.970 --> 24:08.470]  I didn't really conduct myself at all.
[24:08.610 --> 24:10.290]  All I did was stand someplace.
[24:10.650 --> 24:12.510]  And I got processed as a result of that.
[24:14.030 --> 24:14.830]  But it was fun.
[24:14.890 --> 24:15.650]  Let me tell you something now.
[24:15.730 --> 24:19.870]  I don't understand how police get through the day.
[24:19.890 --> 24:21.810]  Because they have no technology at all.
[24:22.770 --> 24:24.010]  They use typewriters.
[24:24.270 --> 24:26.510]  They fill every form out by hand.
[24:26.730 --> 24:30.670]  The few computer terminals they do have look like they were made in the 1950s.
[24:30.790 --> 24:34.090]  I saw one computer modem that was 1,200 baud.
[24:35.870 --> 24:36.690]  I don't know.
[24:38.790 --> 24:41.170]  Maybe that's why they're in such a bad mood all the time.
[24:41.190 --> 24:42.210]  Because it's so frustrating.
[24:42.210 --> 24:43.530]  I mean, think about this.
[24:43.790 --> 24:45.790]  Over 200 people a day getting arrested.
[24:45.850 --> 24:47.730]  And they have to fill out all these tickets by hand.
[24:48.690 --> 24:55.130]  And when they run your information, that's the first thing they do when they get your name.
[24:55.790 --> 25:00.070]  Because they run your name and your address to see if there's any outstanding warrants.
[25:00.390 --> 25:03.270]  And if there are, then, well, they ask you to stay a little longer.
[25:04.490 --> 25:08.290]  The process of doing this takes hours.
[25:10.290 --> 25:16.310]  The guy who processed us said, it takes 10 minutes for every person, so you multiply that by 200 and you see what we're up against.
[25:16.430 --> 25:17.790]  Well, that's two days.
[25:18.190 --> 25:21.510]  So, obviously, that wasn't right entirely, but it was pretty close.
[25:22.110 --> 25:30.470]  Because what they had to do was they had to write all this information out by hand, which increases the probability of something being wrong, and then they had to fax it to someplace.
[25:31.070 --> 25:34.570]  Yeah, they had to fax it to someplace where somebody else apparently looked it up.
[25:34.650 --> 25:37.530]  They couldn't actually enter it into a computer themselves because they don't have any.
[25:37.530 --> 25:46.670]  And then they had to wait for the facts to come back with the information and then cross-check it with the information that they had, all handwritten, and then write out a summons.
[25:47.070 --> 25:50.710]  I mean, that's not exactly swift justice right there.
[25:51.350 --> 25:53.230]  It gives you a taste of how things really work.
[25:55.730 --> 25:59.670]  That's my little adventure with City Hall this past week.
[26:00.570 --> 26:05.530]  We'll be keeping people up to date on what else is going on as far as activism in the area.
[26:07.530 --> 26:11.710]  And how does it relate to the other things that we talk about here on this radio station?
[26:11.830 --> 26:13.990]  Well, it certainly... and this radio show, by the way.
[26:14.190 --> 26:24.010]  It certainly does, because the Kevin Mitnick case is something that I think affects all of us just as much.
[26:24.910 --> 26:27.610]  We're going to get to that in just a moment.
[26:30.860 --> 26:33.140]  You're listening to Off the Hook on WBAI.
[26:46.180 --> 26:49.380]  We're going to get to that in just a moment.
[26:49.380 --> 26:51.700]  No, we're oh.
[26:51.720 --> 26:52.160]  We're of course.
[26:52.160 --> 26:55.820]  And we're doing mig kriege.
[26:55.820 --> 27:01.320]  So we're not sure how we test 싸 USE, our charge can some布.
[27:01.320 --> 27:02.580]  And we're going to get to see the différend of our-age.
[27:02.580 --> 27:03.000]  And we're going to get to the next-storyu key on this radio station.
[27:03.000 --> 27:03.140]  We're going to get to that in just a minute.
[27:03.140 --> 27:03.180]  Yeah, really?
[27:03.240 --> 27:06.060]  Now and I know what's mine from boxing.
[27:06.060 --> 27:10.520]  I can never hear even your cry.
[27:14.950 --> 27:22.130]  Ooh, the harder they come, the harder they fall, one and all.
[27:26.470 --> 27:33.370]  I love the New York City Police Department.
[27:33.570 --> 27:35.470]  No, yes, there's brutality.
[27:35.950 --> 27:37.290]  We want to fight it.
[27:37.390 --> 27:38.750]  We want to end it.
[27:38.890 --> 27:40.530]  No, we are not satisfied.
[27:40.530 --> 27:43.530]  Ain't gonna let no city commissioner...
[27:46.510 --> 27:50.070]  Police brutality is a nationwide epidemic.
[27:50.570 --> 27:58.170]  That's why there's a national emergency march on Washington for justice against police brutality on Saturday, April 3rd.
[27:58.610 --> 27:59.610]  The goals are clear.
[27:59.910 --> 28:06.510]  Congressional hearings, monitoring of police misconduct, and civil rights prosecutions by the Justice Department.
[28:06.510 --> 28:13.850]  Buses are available from Columbus Circle with a call to area code 800-764-0235.
[28:14.250 --> 28:17.890]  That's 800-764-0235.
[28:17.890 --> 28:25.490]  We will not be satisfied until justice holds down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.
[28:26.730 --> 28:31.330]  Join this historic gathering to establish law and order among the nation's police.
[28:31.330 --> 28:38.730]  The April 3rd emergency march on Washington against police brutality is convened by the Center for Constitutional Rights.
[28:39.050 --> 28:42.110]  Turn me high.
[28:42.310 --> 28:42.570]  Turn me high.
[28:42.790 --> 28:48.250]  I ain't gonna let nobody turn me high.
[28:52.050 --> 28:57.630]  There are things happening all over the country, all over the world, so we're here to try to keep you updated on that.
[28:57.630 --> 29:06.950]  But now, back to something a little bit more recognizable to the people of the hacker community.
[29:09.010 --> 29:13.830]  Sometimes you have to step out of the community, though, to see how reality works.
[29:16.390 --> 29:19.870]  As you may have heard, this actually happened while I was locked up.
[29:20.770 --> 29:26.990]  I heard about it as soon as I got out of the slammer, that Kevin Mitnick's plea deal had been accepted.
[29:30.920 --> 29:32.460]  And, you know, I'm amazed.
[29:32.460 --> 29:41.100]  I really am amazed at the ignorance of a lot of people out there who seem to think that that means it's over.
[29:42.040 --> 29:44.700]  There are all different kinds of ignorance, too.
[29:45.100 --> 29:49.080]  There are the people who think that it's just over and there's nothing more to be said.
[29:51.020 --> 29:54.500]  There are the people who think that somehow we've won.
[29:58.480 --> 30:02.680]  Because they've actually agreed to let Kevin out of prison sometime in the future.
[30:05.240 --> 30:09.240]  And last but not least, there are the people who seem to think Kevin has betrayed them.
[30:13.140 --> 30:18.320]  Because he didn't risk going to prison for 35 years.
[30:20.480 --> 30:32.810]  He's standing trial against what can only be defined as a court with no sense of morals.
[30:36.520 --> 30:43.920]  A court so heavily stacked against him that he did not have a snowball's chance in hell of being found not guilty.
[30:44.600 --> 30:47.500]  And this is without any of the evidence even being looked at.
[30:51.620 --> 30:52.780]  Here's the parallel, okay?
[30:52.840 --> 30:54.640]  Here's what I like to compare this to.
[30:54.760 --> 30:56.920]  You ever been robbed?
[30:57.500 --> 31:00.580]  You ever have yourself be stuck up?
[31:00.680 --> 31:01.140]  What's the term?
[31:01.240 --> 31:01.660]  Stuck up?
[31:02.400 --> 31:03.000]  I don't know.
[31:03.320 --> 31:04.300]  Robbed at gunpoint.
[31:05.740 --> 31:06.500]  Happened to me once.
[31:06.520 --> 31:07.580]  Well, it was an implied gun.
[31:07.680 --> 31:08.840]  I just assumed there was one there.
[31:09.100 --> 31:10.260]  And you know, you're there.
[31:10.940 --> 31:14.640]  You've got somebody who's demanding something from you that you don't want to give them.
[31:15.400 --> 31:16.760]  And you have to make a choice.
[31:16.920 --> 31:22.480]  You have to ask yourself, Well, I really should stick up for what I believe in here.
[31:23.520 --> 31:26.340]  Of course, I could get blown away.
[31:27.380 --> 31:28.440]  I could die.
[31:30.000 --> 31:31.400]  That wouldn't be very nice.
[31:39.530 --> 31:40.010]  Or...
[31:42.450 --> 31:44.790]  I could give up something I don't want to give up.
[31:47.770 --> 31:49.010]  Swallow some pride.
[31:51.110 --> 31:52.390]  Take some real losses.
[31:54.930 --> 31:56.410]  But live to tell about it.
[32:00.180 --> 32:02.320]  And that's pretty much what we've gone through here.
[32:06.090 --> 32:12.790]  Kevin has been forced to make a sacrifice because there was no light at the end of the tunnel.
[32:16.120 --> 32:18.180]  Over four years, Kevin's been in prison now.
[32:18.320 --> 32:19.040]  Over four years.
[32:19.120 --> 32:20.820]  Four years, one month, and change.
[32:23.580 --> 32:25.420]  Since day one, he's maintained his innocence.
[32:25.940 --> 32:27.860]  Since day one, he's tried to build a defense.
[32:30.280 --> 32:33.600]  I don't know how many people out there have ever tried to build a defense against the government.
[32:33.880 --> 32:35.480]  It's not an easy thing to do.
[32:37.200 --> 32:37.720]  Now...
[32:37.720 --> 32:39.160]  Try doing that.
[32:40.400 --> 32:41.280]  From prison.
[32:41.480 --> 32:45.680]  Where all you can do is make a series of 15-minute collect phone calls.
[32:46.540 --> 32:49.320]  And you have to organize your defense through that.
[32:51.420 --> 32:54.140]  It's really not that easy at all.
[32:54.980 --> 32:58.360]  You add to that the hell of being in prison in the first place, something I got...
[32:58.360 --> 33:01.740]  I got such a tiny little taste of this past week.
[33:04.260 --> 33:05.560]  And it's...
[33:05.560 --> 33:07.580]  It becomes apparent that it's just...
[33:08.400 --> 33:09.540]  Not possible.
[33:12.990 --> 33:18.220]  Now, Kevin had a legal team that consisted of court-appointed attorneys and...
[33:21.080 --> 33:24.860]  Unfortunately, their time was divided between this case and many others.
[33:27.000 --> 33:28.120]  Underpaid, understaffed.
[33:28.520 --> 33:32.080]  At a tremendous disadvantage because the court was prejudiced against them.
[33:32.140 --> 33:34.320]  And if you don't believe that, simply read the transcripts.
[33:34.960 --> 33:37.480]  Which are currently on the KevinMitnick.com website.
[33:38.640 --> 33:40.940]  These are completely unadulterated transcripts.
[33:41.040 --> 33:47.800]  You'll see how the judge has always been biased against Kevin's counsel.
[33:50.200 --> 33:54.320]  How so many things were simply not permitted, such as a bail hearing.
[33:59.240 --> 34:05.440]  Now, keep in mind that there is a lot of evidence that the government was calling in for this case.
[34:06.360 --> 34:07.560]  Over 10 gigs.
[34:07.900 --> 34:09.660]  How much of it was relevant, we may never know.
[34:10.580 --> 34:12.700]  But Kevin was kept from looking at it...
[34:13.540 --> 34:15.140]  until very, very recently.
[34:16.020 --> 34:17.100]  A month or two ago.
[34:19.340 --> 34:23.300]  And when he was able to look at it, he had to look at it with his lawyer...
[34:24.460 --> 34:26.800]  in attendance, which was not always possible.
[34:27.780 --> 34:29.660]  The maximum of an hour or two a day.
[34:30.900 --> 34:33.260]  10 gigs of evidence is a lot of evidence to go through.
[34:34.680 --> 34:37.960]  And even if you just glanced at it and immediately understood its relevance...
[34:37.960 --> 34:39.600]  and were able to process it...
[34:40.040 --> 34:42.000]  there's still no way you'd be able to get through it all.
[34:43.680 --> 34:48.120]  But in a normal case, you're able to look at the evidence, you're able to process it, you're able to discuss it...
[34:48.120 --> 34:50.700]  because in most cases, you're given bail.
[34:51.300 --> 34:52.320]  And you're able to...
[34:53.540 --> 34:54.580]  to build a defense.
[34:58.750 --> 35:01.150]  Or you have a lot of money and...
[35:02.370 --> 35:05.510]  you're able to afford a lawyer who can get you out...
[35:05.510 --> 35:07.190]  or who can...
[35:07.190 --> 35:09.250]  assign a team of people to...
[35:09.250 --> 35:10.570]  do nothing...
[35:10.570 --> 35:12.370]  but protect your case...
[35:12.370 --> 35:13.670]  protect your name...
[35:14.890 --> 35:16.350]  that just wasn't happening here.
[35:17.050 --> 35:18.070]  So that's the...
[35:18.630 --> 35:21.290]  that's the robbery at gunpoint that took place.
[35:21.950 --> 35:23.230]  That's why it happened.
[35:23.490 --> 35:24.010]  Now...
[35:24.430 --> 35:25.370]  what do we do from here?
[35:25.450 --> 35:26.110]  That's the question.
[35:26.270 --> 35:28.250]  That's what everybody should be asking now...
[35:28.250 --> 35:29.070]  instead of...
[35:30.690 --> 35:32.210]  bemoaning the fate...
[35:32.210 --> 35:33.330]  or celebrating...
[35:33.330 --> 35:34.670]  or whatever it is people have been doing.
[35:36.610 --> 35:37.980]  Now is the time...
[35:39.030 --> 35:40.990]  to really increase the volume.
[35:42.130 --> 35:43.450]  To demand...
[35:43.450 --> 35:44.830]  Kevin be freed...
[35:44.830 --> 35:45.510]  because...
[35:45.510 --> 35:46.050]  guess what?
[35:46.130 --> 35:47.950]  The Free Kevin movement is not dead.
[35:48.890 --> 35:50.910]  It's more alive now than ever...
[35:50.910 --> 35:51.430]  because...
[35:51.430 --> 35:53.670]  what this deal is giving him...
[35:54.570 --> 35:56.590]  is really one hell...
[35:56.590 --> 35:57.290]  in place of another.
[35:59.730 --> 36:01.670]  Obviously, it was the lesser of two evils.
[36:03.710 --> 36:05.210]  But let's look at some of the things...
[36:05.210 --> 36:06.550]  that Kevin must agree to now.
[36:07.570 --> 36:08.790]  First of all...
[36:08.790 --> 36:09.790]  he's...
[36:09.790 --> 36:11.570]  not able to be released...
[36:11.570 --> 36:13.870]  until sometime in the year 2000?
[36:16.730 --> 36:18.130]  How inhumane is this?
[36:18.170 --> 36:18.820]  He's been held...
[36:20.010 --> 36:20.550]  already...
[36:20.550 --> 36:21.350]  over four years.
[36:22.350 --> 36:23.590]  Now ask around...
[36:23.590 --> 36:24.830]  people who have killed...
[36:24.830 --> 36:26.090]  people who have robbed...
[36:26.090 --> 36:26.570]  and raped...
[36:26.570 --> 36:27.370]  and mutilated...
[36:27.370 --> 36:28.050]  and...
[36:28.050 --> 36:29.350]  and destroyed things...
[36:29.350 --> 36:29.910]  really...
[36:29.910 --> 36:31.130]  expensive things...
[36:31.130 --> 36:32.070]  really nice things...
[36:32.070 --> 36:32.190]  you know?
[36:32.530 --> 36:33.850]  People who have broken...
[36:33.850 --> 36:35.050]  all kinds of...
[36:35.050 --> 36:35.990]  of...
[36:35.990 --> 36:36.850]  expensive stuff...
[36:37.850 --> 36:39.230]  and hurt people...
[36:39.230 --> 36:40.310]  really hurt people...
[36:40.310 --> 36:41.930]  and even killed people sometimes.
[36:41.970 --> 36:43.650]  They get released...
[36:43.650 --> 36:45.090]  on bail...
[36:45.090 --> 36:45.930]  yes...
[36:45.930 --> 36:47.510]  they get bail...
[36:47.510 --> 36:49.110]  but not only that...
[36:49.110 --> 36:51.910]  they serve out their entire sentences sometimes...
[36:52.670 --> 36:54.330]  in a time that it's taken...
[36:54.330 --> 36:55.430]  us to get to this point.
[36:56.970 --> 37:00.590]  So, how do you justify continuing to hold someone like Kevin?
[37:03.580 --> 37:05.180]  That's the question we need to be asking.
[37:05.320 --> 37:08.260]  Those are the demands we must make.
[37:08.400 --> 37:09.820]  His immediate release.
[37:09.820 --> 37:12.120]  This has gone on far too long.
[37:12.620 --> 37:25.020]  Now, by signing this agreement, of course, Kevin has admitted that he has caused... well, he was accused of causing $80 million in damages.
[37:25.020 --> 37:29.840]  From what I understand, the plea agreement now says that figure is more like $10 million.
[37:29.960 --> 37:32.280]  I don't know where the $70 million got lobbed off of.
[37:33.940 --> 37:39.040]  But the point is, the figure doesn't seem to matter.
[37:39.260 --> 37:41.560]  The figure doesn't seem to be justified in any way.
[37:41.640 --> 37:43.300]  And that's something that we need to get.
[37:43.440 --> 37:46.940]  We need to get full justification of that figure.
[37:47.880 --> 37:51.420]  What the charges... the charges were pretty much wiped out too.
[37:51.420 --> 37:53.780]  I think there's only seven charges left.
[37:54.980 --> 37:57.500]  And most, if not all of them, were wire fraud.
[37:57.600 --> 38:03.780]  So, basically, it boils down to every time Kevin social engineered somebody.
[38:04.100 --> 38:08.280]  Meaning, every time Kevin called someone and said, Hey, I'm so-and-so from this company.
[38:08.420 --> 38:09.540]  Please give me this information.
[38:09.600 --> 38:11.160]  And they gave him that information.
[38:11.380 --> 38:13.720]  Every time that happened, it's about $2 million.
[38:15.440 --> 38:23.120]  Yeah, so, if you call somebody on the phone, you lie, and you get information from them based on that lie, you've caused $2 million in damage.
[38:24.080 --> 38:26.900]  No, the person who gave it to you, they're not accountable at all.
[38:27.120 --> 38:27.860]  No, it's not their fault.
[38:27.920 --> 38:28.360]  It's your fault.
[38:28.440 --> 38:28.940]  $2 million.
[38:30.040 --> 38:30.980]  Think about that.
[38:31.840 --> 38:32.360]  Think of it.
[38:32.400 --> 38:37.780]  Next time you lie to a total stranger about anything, think how you could be held accountable for that.
[38:39.960 --> 38:45.600]  Now, that's apart from the fact that we've never gotten any kind of itemization of these numbers.
[38:47.280 --> 38:49.120]  Where exactly is the damage?
[38:49.340 --> 38:50.160]  What is the damage?
[38:50.300 --> 38:50.940]  What is the crime?
[38:51.820 --> 38:55.120]  You know, you accuse somebody of calling up someone and saying you're somebody else.
[38:56.340 --> 38:58.200]  So, where is the damage?
[38:59.560 --> 39:01.200]  Do we not have a right to know this?
[39:01.260 --> 39:02.760]  Now, go back...
[39:02.760 --> 39:05.720]  I listened to some of the old shows back in 1990.
[39:06.820 --> 39:10.740]  And you can do that, too, by clicking on the web a few times.
[39:12.620 --> 39:15.380]  It's a widely known fact.
[39:15.740 --> 39:21.540]  The government concocts all kinds of crazily inflated numbers in order to secure a conviction.
[39:22.800 --> 39:23.880]  This is a fact.
[39:24.060 --> 39:25.020]  Everybody knows this.
[39:26.100 --> 39:30.380]  Prosecution, defense, judges, everybody.
[39:33.720 --> 39:40.880]  Back in 1990, the Craig Neidorf Phrack case document was valued at just about $80,000.
[39:41.340 --> 39:43.120]  And that was the whole case right there.
[39:43.480 --> 39:46.660]  This document was printed in Phrack and it was $80,000.
[39:47.140 --> 39:49.540]  And that's the amount of damage that was caused.
[39:49.660 --> 39:52.760]  And therefore, people were going to go to prison.
[39:53.080 --> 39:54.380]  People did go to prison.
[39:55.840 --> 39:58.840]  And Craig Neidorf was the person who fought the case.
[39:59.140 --> 40:04.740]  In the end, it was proven that this $80,000 document was publicly available for $14.
[40:08.580 --> 40:09.060]  $14.
[40:09.580 --> 40:11.480]  The government dropped its case at that point.
[40:15.650 --> 40:18.070]  Didn't help the people who had already pled guilty, though.
[40:18.930 --> 40:19.850]  Out of fear.
[40:21.290 --> 40:22.990]  In the eyes of the court, they were guilty.
[40:22.990 --> 40:27.230]  Even though the document was no longer worth $80,000, they still went to prison as if it was.
[40:33.120 --> 40:33.920]  But imagine...
[40:36.300 --> 40:37.780]  if that had never been revealed.
[40:42.560 --> 40:48.660]  See, by forcing Kevin to sign this agreement, the government is hoping that no more questions are going to be raised.
[40:49.060 --> 40:50.380]  They can close the book on it.
[40:50.660 --> 40:51.960]  Yeah, he caused $10 million of damage.
[40:52.060 --> 40:52.680]  Don't ask why.
[40:52.980 --> 40:53.720]  Don't ask how.
[40:53.940 --> 40:55.440]  He caused $10 million of damage.
[40:55.580 --> 40:56.200]  Just shut up.
[40:56.580 --> 40:58.800]  Let's move on to the next hacker case.
[41:03.590 --> 41:08.410]  Well, I believe we need to get an accounting of every penny of that $10 million.
[41:08.870 --> 41:10.450]  Because $10 million is...
[41:11.030 --> 41:12.330]  It's not small change.
[41:12.630 --> 41:14.730]  You accuse somebody of causing that kind of damage.
[41:16.150 --> 41:19.250]  I think we deserve to know exactly what they're talking about.
[41:21.930 --> 41:32.550]  And also, that figure, actually the $80 million figure, was used as justification to keep him in prison for this long without even having a bail hearing.
[41:33.930 --> 41:36.450]  So, let's get some itemization of that as well.
[41:39.170 --> 41:40.770]  Now, it gets even worse.
[41:40.790 --> 41:45.470]  When Kevin is sentenced, it's very likely he's going to be ordered to pay restitution.
[41:47.030 --> 41:47.610]  That's right.
[41:47.750 --> 41:48.650]  Pay restitution.
[41:48.830 --> 41:53.250]  I mean, if anything, Kevin should be getting restitution for this hell he's gone through.
[41:56.380 --> 41:59.540]  And this is where the idiots step up and say, But he committed a crime.
[41:59.540 --> 42:00.480]  But he's guilty.
[42:00.540 --> 42:01.660]  He said he was guilty.
[42:05.020 --> 42:12.900]  And the logic, if you continue along that vein, I think it leads to execution, doesn't it?
[42:14.780 --> 42:16.880]  There's such a thing as crime and punishment.
[42:17.060 --> 42:20.360]  There's a justified punishment for the crime.
[42:20.480 --> 42:23.660]  You have to define what the crime is first, though, and that has not been done.
[42:23.940 --> 42:38.900]  And if you look back, go back to 1995, our show that we did on February 15th, which was the day he was arrested, I believe it was way back then we started asking the question, what is the crime?
[42:40.360 --> 42:42.240]  And to this day, we don't know.
[42:45.160 --> 42:51.540]  You read the letters in the magazines, you hear people speaking out and saying he's guilty, but they never say what he's guilty of.
[42:51.540 --> 42:53.320]  They never say what it was he actually did.
[42:53.400 --> 43:00.220]  They say he caused $80 million of damage, and he doesn't learn from his mistakes, and he's gotten in trouble before, but, you know, they never say what it was.
[43:00.900 --> 43:03.900]  Yeah, they say he was on the FBI's most wanted list, which he never was.
[43:04.020 --> 43:06.640]  They say he broke into the military, which he never did.
[43:06.780 --> 43:09.540]  But these are the lies that keep getting passed around.
[43:10.420 --> 43:13.740]  And there's this legendary myth that develops around it.
[43:18.590 --> 43:22.650]  So, yeah, Kevin has been going through living hell for the past four years.
[43:27.530 --> 43:31.850]  Whether or not he's done this in vain, I think that's up to us at this point, because we need to get the details.
[43:31.990 --> 43:33.370]  Obviously, he can't get the details.
[43:33.370 --> 43:34.250]  He's locked away.
[43:36.870 --> 43:38.450]  Making a phone call is a challenge.
[43:40.130 --> 43:41.630]  And, you know, there's more.
[43:41.850 --> 43:42.870]  It just keeps going on.
[43:43.130 --> 43:45.210]  He won't be allowed to tell his story.
[43:47.990 --> 43:49.550]  See, everybody else can tell his story.
[43:49.830 --> 43:50.950]  John Markoff can tell his story.
[43:51.070 --> 43:52.450]  Satomo Shimomura can tell his story.
[43:54.010 --> 43:58.410]  But Kevin may not tell his story, because that would be profiting from a crime.
[44:03.130 --> 44:08.210]  And it's yet another way that the true facts may never be revealed to the public.
[44:11.070 --> 44:13.830]  And this doesn't even touch the terms of his release.
[44:13.830 --> 44:20.490]  When he gets out of prison, he won't be allowed to touch computers for three years, and all kinds of other forms of high technology.
[44:22.610 --> 44:30.390]  Now, how is someone with technical ability expected to make a living if he's not allowed to use that ability?
[44:30.610 --> 44:35.330]  I mean, he won't even be allowed to work at McDonald's or at a checkout counter because they use computers there.
[44:35.390 --> 44:38.530]  And by definition, that's something he's not allowed to touch.
[44:42.130 --> 44:57.270]  So the likely scenario is that they will impose an incredible fine and then make it impossible for him to pay this fine, impossible for him to live without violating the terms of this crazy release where you can't touch a telephone, practically.
[45:01.060 --> 45:02.360]  It's living hell.
[45:04.460 --> 45:07.260]  That's why we must keep those stickers up.
[45:07.440 --> 45:09.060]  We must spread those buttons around.
[45:12.280 --> 45:13.540]  We've got to get the word out.
[45:15.420 --> 45:17.720]  Kevin has held firm for four years and a month.
[45:19.040 --> 45:23.500]  And we cannot blame him for what he was forced to do.
[45:24.120 --> 45:27.400]  I don't think there's anyone out there who wouldn't have done the same thing a lot sooner.
[45:28.800 --> 45:35.120]  Our phone number is 212-209-2900 if you have any questions or comments on this or other matters.
[45:37.460 --> 45:41.840]  It really bothers me to hear people say that this kind of treatment is justified.
[45:42.020 --> 45:42.540]  I mean...
[45:44.080 --> 45:46.160]  It's just such a crazy way to look at things.
[45:46.300 --> 45:47.600]  Think of how...
[45:48.220 --> 45:50.160]  a real crime should be dealt with.
[45:50.440 --> 45:52.140]  A real crime where people get hurt.
[45:52.400 --> 45:54.680]  Where someone is actually a menace to society.
[45:56.480 --> 45:59.400]  You treat someone like this for something so minor and ridiculous.
[46:00.480 --> 46:04.800]  I can't imagine what you have in mind for someone who's really guilty of something.
[46:13.480 --> 46:16.280]  212-209-2900 The program is off the hook.
[46:17.880 --> 46:19.400]  There's a lot to talk about this week.
[46:20.020 --> 46:22.100]  Well, let's give our listeners a chance.
[46:22.940 --> 46:24.540]  I think that's a good number down there.
[46:25.960 --> 46:26.540]  Good evening.
[46:26.640 --> 46:27.140]  You're on the air.
[46:27.520 --> 46:28.160]  Hi, good evening.
[46:28.320 --> 46:28.760]  How are you?
[46:29.280 --> 46:29.840]  Not too bad.
[46:30.860 --> 46:31.720]  This is Alan.
[46:32.060 --> 46:32.820]  Alan, how are you?
[46:33.060 --> 46:34.180]  I am pretty good.
[46:35.080 --> 46:48.660]  When I hear about Kevin's case and Bernie S., I also remember a person I met about 10 years ago who was a satellite retailer.
[46:49.100 --> 46:49.620]  Okay.
[46:50.120 --> 47:02.440]  And what had happened was that he had sold some satellite receiving units to some people who bought a large stock of them.
[47:03.600 --> 47:11.680]  Well, what these guys had done is they had gone to Canada with them and they had modified them and then they took them back to the U.S.
[47:11.680 --> 47:12.860]  and sold them to people.
[47:14.320 --> 47:26.300]  Well, in the end of this all the FBI came to this guy who originally sold the units and placed the whole piracy charge against him.
[47:30.020 --> 47:37.780]  Upon, you know, when he said, you know, this is crazy I just sell the things what they do with them after they buy them is their business.
[47:39.760 --> 47:47.720]  And they weren't willing to budge on this and then and then they tried to make a deal with him to be an informant.
[47:49.280 --> 48:00.140]  And when he said and he asked them what he would do what they would do if he refused well, they said that they would find a numerous number of capital crimes against him that would have him executed very quickly.
[48:00.140 --> 48:02.000]  Capital crimes?
[48:02.240 --> 48:02.500]  Yes.
[48:03.160 --> 48:05.540]  For someone selling satellite equipment?
[48:05.840 --> 48:06.440]  Yes.
[48:08.120 --> 48:09.520]  That's amazing.
[48:10.040 --> 48:11.920]  Not surprising but amazing.
[48:12.060 --> 48:25.060]  Well, this is what I when I heard your show and I've been listening now for the last week steadily going backwards I'm right now at about December 97.
[48:26.060 --> 48:27.920]  I thoroughly enjoy this show.
[48:28.260 --> 48:28.920]  Well, thanks.
[48:28.960 --> 48:34.300]  And I encourage people to listen to the history because it's quite a story.
[48:34.500 --> 48:36.260]  You can see it evolving over time.
[48:36.260 --> 48:37.560]  You see how things have progressed.
[48:37.840 --> 48:39.700]  You see how a lot of things have gotten worse.
[48:40.380 --> 48:40.840]  And, you know...
[48:40.840 --> 48:41.300]  I have been...
[48:41.300 --> 48:46.000]  Yeah, I've been reading material of this sort since I was a kid.
[48:46.160 --> 48:47.300]  I'm 41 now.
[48:47.520 --> 48:51.740]  And I've been reading stuff since I was 14, 15 years old.
[48:51.900 --> 48:54.540]  Playing with phones since I was 07 or 8.
[48:55.820 --> 49:02.600]  So I managed to get a hold of things like Youth International Party Line TAP and applications like that.
[49:02.820 --> 49:04.300]  Well, you've lived the history then.
[49:04.800 --> 49:06.400]  Yeah, I've had quite a bit.
[49:07.480 --> 49:08.040]  All right.
[49:08.120 --> 49:08.900]  Well, hey, thanks for calling.
[49:09.000 --> 49:09.920]  Whatever happened to the guy?
[49:11.080 --> 49:13.200]  Yeah, he lost his house.
[49:13.300 --> 49:14.220]  He lost his business.
[49:14.400 --> 49:15.400]  He lost his livelihood.
[49:15.700 --> 49:18.020]  The IRS screwed him for $75,000.
[49:19.340 --> 49:23.820]  And he basically I had to start from scratch.
[49:24.560 --> 49:25.480]  It's unbelievable.
[49:26.400 --> 49:27.660]  I'm sorry to hear that.
[49:27.800 --> 49:31.240]  And I wish it was the last case like it I hear.
[49:31.480 --> 49:32.740]  But I'm sure there'll be more.
[49:33.920 --> 49:35.360]  Yeah, well, that's what happened.
[49:35.740 --> 49:43.760]  Yeah, he made $160,000 and $75,000 went to the IRS.
[49:44.740 --> 49:51.380]  $75,000 went to lawyers' fees and he ended up putting his house up for sale.
[49:51.760 --> 49:54.460]  But he wasn't in prison for a lengthy amount of time, though, was he?
[49:54.460 --> 49:56.480]  No, he didn't get sent to prison.
[49:57.920 --> 50:04.800]  And that was partially because of his friend in the town where he lived being a local judge.
[50:06.220 --> 50:08.560]  Yeah, that kind of thing can definitely help.
[50:09.500 --> 50:10.440]  Hey, thanks for calling.
[50:10.560 --> 50:12.060]  We're going to move on to another phone call.
[50:12.060 --> 50:15.080]  Well, 212-209-2900, good evening.
[50:15.200 --> 50:15.640]  You're on the air.
[50:16.620 --> 50:17.060]  Hello.
[50:17.280 --> 50:17.660]  How are you doing?
[50:18.300 --> 50:18.500]  Yeah.
[50:19.340 --> 50:20.200]  Tell me when I'm on.
[50:20.280 --> 50:21.100]  You're on right now.
[50:21.460 --> 50:23.720]  Yeah, bookman calling from San Francisco.
[50:24.100 --> 50:28.060]  And, yeah, I'm really disturbed about this Mitnick thing.
[50:28.940 --> 50:33.820]  I get on the mailing list wanting to try and do something to help.
[50:34.980 --> 50:44.580]  And there was so much nonsense and so much idiocy there and so many people that couldn't seem to take it serious that I finally just gave up.
[50:46.220 --> 50:47.120]  I regret that.
[50:47.240 --> 50:48.380]  I'm going to get back on the list.
[50:48.540 --> 50:52.340]  I'm going to try again to organize demonstrations out here in San Francisco.
[50:52.500 --> 50:53.540]  That's a great idea.
[50:53.700 --> 50:57.820]  You know, I see the thing is with the list, what you have to understand is that anybody can join the mailing list.
[50:57.980 --> 51:00.620]  So, it's only as good as the people who are on it.
[51:00.720 --> 51:08.020]  But if the smart people don't say anything, if they just let the stupid people run things, then nothing smart is going to be said.
[51:08.020 --> 51:09.220]  I find that when intelligent people
[51:12.500 --> 51:15.480]  don't say anything, so by all means, don't be cowed into submission.
[51:15.860 --> 51:19.700]  You know, if something bothers you, bring it up and I think other people will respond.
[51:19.820 --> 51:21.800]  Because there's a lot of people out there that express the same frustration.
[51:22.300 --> 51:26.080]  But at the same time, we don't want to close off the mailing list and keep it from people.
[51:26.480 --> 51:28.640]  You know, we don't want to put any kind of restriction on it.
[51:29.080 --> 51:31.320]  So really, it's as good as we make it.
[51:32.840 --> 51:41.700]  Well, you can count on one more person to get involved again and maybe we could even make a reality out of this aerial advertising scheme that I have.
[51:41.880 --> 51:42.840]  Hey, that sounds good.
[51:43.220 --> 51:44.340]  Send me some email on that.
[51:44.840 --> 51:45.340]  All right.
[51:45.900 --> 51:47.020]  Well, thanks for your show and good luck.
[51:47.180 --> 51:47.780]  Thanks for calling.
[51:48.940 --> 51:58.540]  I think if we get together, use our hacker ingenuity and figure out ways of getting the message out, we can certainly counter the crap that's been spread around in the last week or so.
[51:59.680 --> 52:00.720]  Look at this from Reuters.
[52:00.960 --> 52:05.760]  Renegade computer hacker Kevin Mitnick pleaded guilty on Friday to computer and wire fraud charges in a deal with U.S.
[52:05.900 --> 52:06.340]  prosecutors.
[52:09.620 --> 52:18.640]  There's the old FBI most wanted thing on here and all kinds of all kinds of things that make him look like Hannibal Lecter.
[52:19.960 --> 52:21.580]  That's the usual nonsense.
[52:22.600 --> 52:23.240]  Good evening.
[52:23.380 --> 52:23.820]  You're on the air.
[52:24.340 --> 52:24.780]  Hey, what's up?
[52:24.880 --> 52:25.220]  It's Che.
[52:25.420 --> 52:25.880]  How you doing?
[52:26.120 --> 52:27.180]  I have two questions.
[52:27.200 --> 52:27.920]  Go ahead.
[52:28.100 --> 52:30.280]  Number one, Friday's Good Friday.
[52:30.420 --> 52:32.520]  Is there going to be a meeting in New York?
[52:32.700 --> 52:34.400]  Yeah, it's a good Friday for a meeting, isn't it?
[52:35.380 --> 52:37.540]  And what's up with Take Down?
[52:38.380 --> 52:39.220]  What's up with Take Down?
[52:39.300 --> 52:40.340]  You mean the film?
[52:40.520 --> 52:41.300]  Yeah, when's it coming out?
[52:41.400 --> 52:48.000]  Well, from what I understand, it's coming out in, I think it's coming out in June.
[52:48.120 --> 52:48.920]  Don't quote me on that.
[52:49.060 --> 52:54.700]  Even though I'm saying it on the radio, don't quote me on that because that's just the rumor going around the circle.
[52:56.140 --> 53:03.720]  After Memorial Day, definitely after Memorial Day, probably sometime in early summer or right before early summer.
[53:04.560 --> 53:18.820]  And, you know, it's not something that that we should really celebrate because, you know, it's more, it's more capitalization of this particular series of events without really getting the true facts out.
[53:18.920 --> 53:19.460]  You know, I might be wrong.
[53:19.460 --> 53:22.760]  Maybe the film will suddenly, you know, show the injustice.
[53:22.760 --> 53:25.840]  I hope so, but I have to be pessimistic about that.
[53:25.960 --> 53:34.220]  And the fact is, Kevin isn't going to be allowed to see the film because he's going to still be in prison unless we somehow manage to get him released.
[53:34.800 --> 53:36.020]  Oh, that's bad.
[53:36.380 --> 53:36.720]  Yeah.
[53:36.880 --> 53:37.120]  All right.
[53:37.440 --> 53:41.680]  And also, I know that the Hope 2000 site just came out.
[53:41.860 --> 53:43.660]  Do you know anything that's going on with that?
[53:44.480 --> 54:06.580]  Basically, the deal, well, we just put out the spring issue and in there we invite people to check out the new Hope site which is H2K, Hope 2000, get it, www.h2k.net or you can join a mailing list, H2K at 2600.com and the usual rules and joining mailing lists.
[54:06.740 --> 54:08.100]  There'll be details on that on the website.
[54:08.340 --> 54:13.760]  All we know is that it's going to be sometime in the year 2000, sometime in the summer, sometime somewhere in New York City.
[54:14.100 --> 54:15.720]  So, do you want to be part of the planning?
[54:15.720 --> 54:19.660]  Well, we're certainly in the planning stages right now because that's really all we know.
[54:20.120 --> 54:20.720]  All right, bye.
[54:20.920 --> 54:21.200]  All right.
[54:21.560 --> 54:22.880]  Glad we could answer those questions.
[54:23.740 --> 54:26.940]  And we have time for one more phone call so let's go over...
[54:26.940 --> 54:28.940]  Oh, I guess we'll go over...
[54:29.340 --> 54:30.580]  You know, they all look so good.
[54:30.920 --> 54:32.260]  All right, let's try this one right there.
[54:32.360 --> 54:33.100]  Yeah, that's a good one.
[54:33.160 --> 54:33.800]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[54:35.260 --> 54:36.440]  All right, you're right, that wasn't a good one.
[54:36.560 --> 54:36.980]  Which one?
[54:37.240 --> 54:37.780]  What number?
[54:38.780 --> 54:39.260]  That one?
[54:39.900 --> 54:41.020]  No, that's an empty one.
[54:41.200 --> 54:41.880]  This one, okay.
[54:42.300 --> 54:42.620]  Fine.
[54:42.800 --> 54:43.520]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[54:43.900 --> 54:45.960]  Hello, how's it going?
[54:46.220 --> 54:46.440]  Okay.
[54:47.060 --> 54:53.980]  I bring some news that could, I think, maybe restore your faith in some of the American people.
[54:54.160 --> 54:56.140]  Oh, I can sure use that faith as I go out.
[54:56.200 --> 54:58.500]  You have one minute to restore my faith so go ahead, go crazy.
[54:58.560 --> 55:01.540]  There was a thing going on with the banks recently.
[55:01.980 --> 55:03.240]  Is this the New Jersey thing?
[55:03.480 --> 55:03.760]  Yes.
[55:03.960 --> 55:04.620]  I've heard about that.
[55:04.700 --> 55:05.860]  Okay, well, go ahead, make it quick.
[55:06.160 --> 55:14.560]  It was expanded nationwide but there was such a flooding of email to Washington about it, they dropped it like a bad hit of acid.
[55:14.920 --> 55:17.620]  Well, you know, that's what happens when you raise a fuss.
[55:17.880 --> 55:21.400]  Remember, when we raised a fuss about Bernie S, Bernie S got released.
[55:21.400 --> 55:27.060]  When the nanny got convicted up in Massachusetts and everybody raised a fuss about that, all of a sudden she wasn't convicted anymore.
[55:27.400 --> 55:28.840]  People have to raise a fuss.
[55:29.020 --> 55:30.780]  They'll tell you public opinion means nothing.
[55:31.040 --> 55:31.900]  They're lying.
[55:32.100 --> 55:33.600]  Public opinion means everything.
[55:34.100 --> 55:38.760]  So let's get out there and get Kevin out of prison once and for all.
[55:38.940 --> 55:39.680]  Hey, thanks for calling.
[55:39.820 --> 55:40.660]  Thanks everybody for listening.
[55:40.840 --> 55:43.700]  Sorry we didn't have more time for phone calls but next week hopefully we will.
[55:44.480 --> 55:47.360]  Until then, this is Emmanuel Goldstein for Off the Hook.
[55:47.900 --> 55:48.720]  Have a good night.
[55:54.870 --> 56:16.490]  The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a cough It couldn't get much worse They would But I best expect the worst I hope that's understood But I
[56:50.140 --> 56:58.380]  can't make a cough
[57:10.020 --> 57:18.220]  As most of our listeners are aware, our beloved program director, Samori Marksman, passed away on Tuesday, March 23rd.
[57:18.520 --> 57:27.220]  His body will lie in state at the House of Hills Chapel on Sunday and Monday, March 28th and 29th, from 3 p.m.
[57:27.400 --> 57:28.340]  to 8 p.m.
[57:28.480 --> 57:37.000]  at 1000 St. John's Place at the corner of Brooklyn Avenue and what Samori always referred to as the People's Republic of Brooklyn.
[57:37.000 --> 57:52.180]  On Wednesday, March 31st, we will celebrate the life and times of Samori Marksman at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine, 1047 Amsterdam Avenue, at the corner of 112th Street.
[57:52.480 --> 57:55.360]  Doors will open at 9 a.m.
[57:55.500 --> 57:58.580]  and the services will start promptly at 10.
[57:58.680 --> 58:00.220]  All are welcome.
[58:27.730 --> 58:30.410]  This is Jose Santiago, News Director.