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[00:57.170 --> 00:58.630]  Time now for Off the Hook.
[01:05.700 --> 01:27.440]  The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a call It couldn't get much worse But if they could, they would Bumbin' LeBomb But I best expect the worst I hope that's understood Bumbin' LeBomb
[02:32.420 --> 02:33.920]  And a good evening to everybody.
[02:33.920 --> 02:35.060]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:35.060 --> 02:38.860]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you Over on this side of the room.
[02:39.320 --> 02:40.620]  Isaac's over on the other side of the room.
[02:40.620 --> 02:41.220]  How you doing, sir?
[02:41.400 --> 02:41.780]  How you doing?
[02:42.640 --> 02:45.820]  Well, it's been a fun week.
[02:46.060 --> 02:47.660]  A lot of educational things going on.
[02:47.720 --> 02:54.720]  A lot of new developments as far as hacker cases and things for the future.
[02:54.800 --> 02:55.560]  Ominous developments.
[02:55.920 --> 02:57.640]  And also some fun toys to play with.
[02:57.640 --> 02:59.460]  We'll be getting to that in just a little while.
[02:59.620 --> 03:01.520]  But, Isaac, anything new going on with you?
[03:01.920 --> 03:02.200]  Me?
[03:02.400 --> 03:02.560]  New?
[03:02.780 --> 03:03.360]  Oh, come on.
[03:03.420 --> 03:04.520]  You know I don't do anything interesting.
[03:04.720 --> 03:05.240]  Well, I don't know.
[03:05.300 --> 03:05.600]  I don't know.
[03:05.820 --> 03:08.460]  I really don't have any idea what's going on lots of times.
[03:08.460 --> 03:09.860]  But, um...
[03:10.900 --> 03:12.120]  I've got a couple of things.
[03:12.140 --> 03:12.880]  I just walked in here.
[03:12.940 --> 03:17.960]  So, if I sound a little disorganized, that's why traffic was murdered today.
[03:20.600 --> 03:21.000]  Okay.
[03:21.340 --> 03:26.360]  Well, we have, of course, the continuing developments with the Melissa case.
[03:29.420 --> 03:30.840]  Dave Smith, was that the guy's name?
[03:31.100 --> 03:31.860]  I believe so.
[03:31.860 --> 03:48.080]  Yeah, he, uh, got himself a new lawyer, and, um, that lawyer is now challenging whether or not he should be charged with that particular crime in the first place, whether or not he disrupted, um, um, transactions, email, whatever it is they're accusing him of disrupting.
[03:48.220 --> 03:50.980]  It's just, uh, it's just utter nonsense.
[03:51.700 --> 03:53.880]  And we'll see where that case goes in the weeks ahead.
[03:54.100 --> 03:57.560]  It's no doubt going to be something people talk about for, for many years to come.
[03:57.780 --> 04:01.840]  Just like the, the Robert Morris case when that, uh, when that first happened.
[04:03.500 --> 04:11.500]  And, uh, we have, um, a couple other, rather, uh, actually, you know, all these cases are, are, are bad.
[04:11.620 --> 04:12.480]  They're all bad news.
[04:13.980 --> 04:15.940]  And they're all kind of similar, too.
[04:18.380 --> 04:21.500]  So, uh, maybe we'll, we'll kind of spread them out or something like that.
[04:21.840 --> 04:22.240]  Yeah.
[04:22.400 --> 04:23.320]  Let's, let's start with this one.
[04:23.600 --> 04:29.840]  Uh, the American Civil Liberties Union called on Congress on, uh, this was actually, it was a week ago, April 6th.
[04:29.840 --> 04:35.940]  They called on Congress to investigate reports that a global electronic communications surveillance system known as Echelon.
[04:36.680 --> 04:37.820]  Now, you do know about this.
[04:38.440 --> 04:40.720]  Well, I've known about Echelon for a very long time.
[04:40.880 --> 04:41.140]  Okay.
[04:42.480 --> 04:45.100]  What, uh, would you like me to describe it or would you like to finish your article?
[04:45.120 --> 04:46.060]  Well, I'd like to finish the article.
[04:46.280 --> 04:46.600]  Okay, go ahead.
[04:46.660 --> 04:49.340]  Unless you'd like to echo the words along with me as I, as I say them.
[04:49.500 --> 04:52.100]  Well, Echelon needed that extra, extra oomph there.
[04:52.100 --> 04:52.520]  All right.
[04:52.940 --> 04:55.740]  Well, the global electronic communications surveillance system known as Echelon.
[04:57.140 --> 04:58.880]  This is not going to be an easy hour, is it?
[04:59.620 --> 05:00.700]  I'll see that right now.
[05:01.340 --> 05:01.580]  Okay.
[05:02.560 --> 05:09.680]  It's being operated by the National Security Agency and may be engaged in the illegal interception of Americans' private communications.
[05:09.900 --> 05:10.940]  Now, here's the thing, okay?
[05:10.940 --> 05:17.520]  We, we see the films, we watch the TV shows, we read the books, and everybody says, oh, that's already happening.
[05:17.680 --> 05:21.340]  But, you know, it's because we read it in fiction so much that we become convinced that it's real.
[05:21.480 --> 05:22.320]  And here it is.
[05:22.440 --> 05:23.620]  It's real in front of us.
[05:23.760 --> 05:25.980]  And, you know, no one's just saying, yeah, so whatever.
[05:26.640 --> 05:28.580]  That's, that's the scary thing there, you know?
[05:29.460 --> 05:33.000]  I think they should ban works of fiction where they project that kind of thing.
[05:34.380 --> 05:35.420]  So, it's dangerous.
[05:36.000 --> 05:41.740]  Inquiries by the European Parliament resulted in reports, we're going to get letters now from people saying, you know, you shouldn't ban fiction.
[05:42.000 --> 05:45.820]  We get, every time I say something sarcastic, we get letters from people who don't get it.
[05:45.940 --> 05:46.880]  You weren't being serious?
[05:47.120 --> 05:52.480]  And now we're going to get letters from stupid people, too, saying, you know, you shouldn't criticize stupid people who don't get it.
[05:53.200 --> 05:55.320]  It's just, you can never make everybody happy.
[05:55.340 --> 05:58.300]  So, I guess I should just try to make everybody unhappy, because that's a lot easier.
[05:58.420 --> 05:59.940]  Well, they'll bond together against you.
[06:00.100 --> 06:00.300]  Yeah.
[06:01.080 --> 06:01.400]  Pheesh.
[06:02.000 --> 06:02.580]  All right, anyway.
[06:02.800 --> 06:12.720]  Inquiries by the European Parliament resulted in reports detailing the existence of Echelon, which is led by the NSA in conjunction with its counterpart agencies in England, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.
[06:13.020 --> 06:26.420]  According to the reports, Echelon has communications receiving stations all over the world and attempts to capture all satellite, microwave, cellular, and fiber optic communications worldwide, including communications to and from North America.
[06:26.820 --> 06:31.280]  Computers then sort through conversations, faxes, and emails searching for keywords.
[06:31.820 --> 06:38.580]  Communications that include keywords chosen by the intelligence agencies are transcribed and forwarded for further investigation.
[06:39.460 --> 06:47.120]  It appears that the NSA is engaged in a surveillance system of epic proportions, said Barry Steinhardt, associate director of the ACLU.
[06:47.260 --> 06:55.580]  If these reports are true, Echelon dwarfs the extensive surveillance of Americans already conducted by the FBI and other domestic law enforcement agencies.
[06:56.020 --> 07:02.880]  The ACLU's request for an investigation came in a letter to the chairman and ranking minority member of the House Committee on Government Reform.
[07:03.840 --> 07:15.320]  Congress should establish rules to protect the privacy of these communications because privacy is important to Americans today and was important to the framers of our Constitution, according to the ACLU letter.
[07:16.020 --> 07:28.720]  If the Echelon system operates as reported, it appears that the NSA is violating or circumventing laws Congress passed for the express purpose of protecting Americans from this very type of surveillance, said Gregory T.
[07:29.000 --> 07:34.000]  Nojime, legislative counsel in the ACLU's Washington national office.
[07:34.540 --> 07:45.560]  It is the duty of Congress to determine if the Echelon program is as sweeping and intrusive as has been reported, and to ensure that it does not intercept Americans' conversations without a court order, Nojime added.
[07:45.940 --> 07:55.420]  The report to the European Parliament detailed charges at Echelon had been used in the United United Kingdom to spy on charities such as Amnesty International and Christian Aid.
[07:56.460 --> 08:02.200]  Steinhardt moderated a panel discussion on global surveillance at the CFP conference where Echelon was discussed.
[08:02.500 --> 08:07.740]  That panel included Stephen Wright, the principal author of a report to the European Parliament.
[08:07.740 --> 08:18.220]  Also on the panel, Representative Bob Barr, you know, the guy who licks whipped cream off the breasts of women at parties and then accuses people of being unfaithful and things like that.
[08:18.420 --> 08:20.360]  You know, the Republican guy from Georgia.
[08:20.680 --> 08:20.740]  Yeah.
[08:21.000 --> 08:21.840]  Scott Shorney.
[08:22.000 --> 08:23.100]  Oh, that's swine of the U.S.
[08:23.360 --> 08:23.800]  Justice Department.
[08:25.660 --> 08:27.060]  The less said about him, the better.
[08:27.300 --> 08:29.080]  And several European journalists.
[08:29.860 --> 08:30.760]  So, uh...
[08:30.760 --> 08:34.440]  I'm still caught on the identification you made of that one senator.
[08:34.660 --> 08:35.160]  Oh, yeah.
[08:35.320 --> 08:36.780]  I can get you more information on him if you want.
[08:36.820 --> 08:37.460]  I'm not...
[08:37.460 --> 08:38.580]  I get you pictures, too.
[08:38.880 --> 08:39.980]  I'm not interested.
[08:40.240 --> 08:40.860]  I just...
[08:41.540 --> 08:42.280]  Come on, Isaac.
[08:42.440 --> 08:42.980]  Everyone's interested.
[08:43.240 --> 08:43.780]  Everyone's interested.
[08:44.020 --> 08:45.240]  You mentioning that, but...
[08:45.240 --> 08:47.180]  Well, you know, it's something that, uh...
[08:47.180 --> 08:48.200]  You know, I saw it on C-SPAN.
[08:48.560 --> 08:49.440]  Oh, you saw it on C-SPAN.
[08:49.500 --> 08:49.760]  Oh, yeah.
[08:49.900 --> 08:51.100]  If I see it on C-SPAN, it's true.
[08:51.320 --> 08:51.620]  Oh, okay.
[08:51.760 --> 08:51.900]  Yeah.
[08:52.840 --> 08:57.240]  Anyway, speaking of things that are true, I've heard about Echelon now for how many years?
[08:57.540 --> 08:59.220]  People have been talking about this since I was a little kid.
[08:59.340 --> 09:03.200]  Now, why is it the ACLU only now is asking for information about it?
[09:03.280 --> 09:03.960]  Because they're bored.
[09:04.220 --> 09:05.680]  Well, I just don't understand.
[09:06.100 --> 09:16.460]  This has been well known to everybody, everybody in the hacker community, certainly, that the NSA monitors for key words, and they do this all over the world.
[09:17.080 --> 09:18.440]  So, I mean, what?
[09:18.460 --> 09:19.980]  No one told the ACLU until now?
[09:20.060 --> 09:20.840]  They just figured it out?
[09:21.040 --> 09:25.460]  Maybe in 20 years they'll be interested in Kevin Mitnick's case then, you know?
[09:26.000 --> 09:26.400]  Probably.
[09:26.680 --> 09:27.780]  Hey, this is wrong.
[09:27.800 --> 09:28.800]  What are they doing to this person?
[09:28.800 --> 09:29.400]  Now that you mention it.
[09:29.480 --> 09:31.520]  Keeping him in prison for, uh, you know...
[09:31.520 --> 09:37.600]  Well, if people are interested in learning more about Echelon and our fine national security agency, I highly suggest the Puzzle Palace.
[09:38.540 --> 09:39.280]  That book's out of print.
[09:39.840 --> 09:40.980]  No, it's not out of print.
[09:41.080 --> 09:42.600]  But they will track you when you buy it.
[09:42.620 --> 09:44.020]  It was out of print a couple of years ago.
[09:44.060 --> 09:45.540]  It's hard to get, but, uh...
[09:45.540 --> 09:47.840]  You can locate it, and it is definitely worth the read.
[09:47.960 --> 09:49.080]  It's, uh, fun stuff.
[09:49.460 --> 09:51.900]  Actually, you can probably locate it in one of those online services.
[09:52.280 --> 09:52.860]  Oh, yes.
[09:53.040 --> 09:55.140]  So, uh, yeah, look around on the internet.
[09:55.420 --> 09:56.540]  That's one of the advantages.
[09:56.860 --> 10:02.280]  Finding out-of-print stuff or hard-to-find stuff, it's not as bad as it used to be.
[10:02.540 --> 10:09.780]  Of course, you've got to send all your information out over the net, but, you know, all your information's out there anyway, so you might as well just submit and give up and all that kind of thing.
[10:09.880 --> 10:11.480]  Or make a false identity.
[10:12.740 --> 10:13.500]  That's always fun.
[10:13.780 --> 10:15.740]  Yeah, that way you, uh, you're safe.
[10:16.040 --> 10:19.620]  And as long as you don't use it for fraudulent purposes, I don't really see any problem with it.
[10:21.340 --> 10:23.100]  Well, I had some fun, uh, this week.
[10:23.480 --> 10:28.680]  Um, turns out, uh, we had a power failure over at the 2600 compound.
[10:29.100 --> 10:29.340]  Yay.
[10:33.120 --> 10:37.340]  And, uh, we had to take the computer system down and all kinds of things like that happened.
[10:37.700 --> 10:44.540]  Uh, but one thing I learned when this, when this occurred, I called up the power company to say, Hey, you know, of course the phones work, phones always work.
[10:44.720 --> 10:49.300]  Um, I, I called the power company to tell them that their power was out and that they should really do something about it.
[10:49.460 --> 10:52.000]  Well, I never talked to a human, never talked to a human.
[10:52.300 --> 10:54.640]  Just immediately, immediately got picked up.
[10:54.760 --> 10:55.480]  I didn't get a busy signal.
[10:55.640 --> 10:56.140]  Give them credit.
[10:56.280 --> 11:01.780]  I did not get a busy signal, but I did get through a computer immediately that told me who I was.
[11:01.960 --> 11:03.460]  Well, who they thought I was anyway.
[11:03.820 --> 11:04.500]  It's kind of cool.
[11:04.560 --> 11:05.560]  They don't really know who I am.
[11:05.720 --> 11:06.660]  So it's a psychic computer?
[11:06.880 --> 11:08.720]  Well, no, they, they read my caller ID.
[11:09.080 --> 11:09.840]  Oh, okay.
[11:09.900 --> 11:10.220]  That's helpful.
[11:10.480 --> 11:13.300]  And then they said, you are this person at this address.
[11:14.080 --> 11:14.540]  All right.
[11:15.160 --> 11:16.480]  So that was kind of cool.
[11:16.640 --> 11:17.460]  I said, yeah, okay.
[11:17.460 --> 11:18.160]  You got that right.
[11:18.200 --> 11:20.280]  Um, according to your records anyway.
[11:20.500 --> 11:20.840]  And, um...
[11:20.840 --> 11:21.700]  What if they got it wrong?
[11:21.940 --> 11:22.960]  Well, I'll get to that.
[11:22.960 --> 11:23.620]  I'll get to that.
[11:23.620 --> 11:24.240]  I'll get to that.
[11:24.540 --> 11:26.100]  You know, they didn't give you an option though.
[11:26.260 --> 11:29.160]  No, I don't think they gave you an option to, uh, correct what they... No, they did.
[11:29.240 --> 11:29.460]  They did.
[11:29.540 --> 11:31.960]  There was an option there to say, yeah, if this is not correct, do this.
[11:32.380 --> 11:39.140]  Uh, so then they said, yes, there's a power outage because of a utility line that's not working or something like that.
[11:39.260 --> 11:43.220]  And we estimate it to be fixed by May 15th or whatever date in the future.
[11:43.480 --> 11:44.620]  We're going to get around to it.
[11:45.260 --> 11:47.600]  And then they hung up without saying anymore.
[11:47.700 --> 11:48.720]  They just hung up and that was it.
[11:49.020 --> 11:51.860]  But it was kind of cool that, uh, I didn't have to speak to a human being.
[11:51.980 --> 11:52.960]  They knew about the problem already.
[11:53.080 --> 11:54.220]  It was all computerized.
[11:54.780 --> 12:01.560]  And, um, I was impressed by that, but I was also kind of curious and I wanted to, um, you know, to experiment a little bit.
[12:01.740 --> 12:03.380]  And this is where the crime comes in.
[12:03.460 --> 12:06.680]  This is where certain people believe that if you do this, you're committing a crime.
[12:06.840 --> 12:07.720]  Dun, dun, dun.
[12:08.180 --> 12:09.260]  And here's the thing.
[12:09.280 --> 12:10.820]  I probably did commit a crime.
[12:12.100 --> 12:12.440]  You?
[12:12.780 --> 12:13.360]  Oh, my.
[12:13.860 --> 12:14.460]  Here's the thing.
[12:14.540 --> 12:15.160]  I didn't mean to.
[12:15.240 --> 12:19.260]  I didn't mean to, but I, I called up and this to my block caller ID, .star67 first.
[12:20.020 --> 12:23.840]  And I called the number and sure enough, uh, it said, uh, what is your number?
[12:23.960 --> 12:25.400]  It didn't tell me what my number was.
[12:25.520 --> 12:26.720]  It said, it asked what my number was.
[12:26.800 --> 12:31.960]  So I gave it a friend's number and, uh, it read off that friend's name and address.
[12:32.280 --> 12:32.820]  Wasn't that neat?
[12:33.000 --> 12:33.520]  Well, that's fine.
[12:33.560 --> 12:33.740]  Yeah.
[12:34.160 --> 12:34.940]  Unlisted number too.
[12:35.320 --> 12:41.460]  Well, so, well, yeah, I'd, I'd imagine that as long as they get electric power on Long Island, they would probably be in this database.
[12:41.780 --> 12:42.120]  Yeah.
[12:42.400 --> 12:42.620]  Yeah.
[12:42.800 --> 12:47.360]  As long as you got the phone number that was in their database, it gives you the name and address and that little computer voice.
[12:48.160 --> 12:51.760]  And then it said, I have dispatched a team to investigate the problem.
[12:52.600 --> 12:53.360]  How do you like that?
[12:53.580 --> 12:57.720]  I, I, I, I was responsible for dispatching an electric crew, right?
[12:57.800 --> 13:02.640]  A crew of electrical people, you know, to this person's house to investigate why the power was out, which was not out.
[13:02.800 --> 13:06.080]  Well, they didn't come to your house when you actually had a power.
[13:06.080 --> 13:06.920]  Well, they already knew about that problem.
[13:07.040 --> 13:07.260]  Oh, okay.
[13:07.260 --> 13:12.020]  It was a big problem affecting the whole neighborhood, but, but they sent a crew to this person's house.
[13:12.080 --> 13:15.220]  Now, now consider, consider the, the differences here.
[13:15.300 --> 13:15.500]  Okay.
[13:15.660 --> 13:27.140]  If you call somebody and you lie and you say, yes, you know, my power is out, send the crew over here, you're, you're making a conscious effort to, to spread something that's false, to, to make something happen.
[13:27.140 --> 13:28.700]  That's a big waste of everybody's time.
[13:28.940 --> 13:33.680]  But if all you have to do is enter somebody's phone number and right away, it's assumed that you want that.
[13:34.440 --> 13:35.500]  It's not the same thing.
[13:35.500 --> 13:42.080]  Even though people want to treat it the same way, they want to treat it as if you committed a crime and did the exact same thing as calling somebody and, and, and making a false report.
[13:42.240 --> 13:45.880]  All I did was enter a phone number to see if it would read back the address and the name, which it did.
[13:46.260 --> 13:49.740]  And then they assumed that because I did that, I wanted an electrical crew dispatched.
[13:49.900 --> 13:52.840]  And I'm just sorry I wasted everybody's time like that.
[13:52.940 --> 13:53.720]  Well, did they show up?
[13:53.840 --> 13:54.420]  I don't know.
[13:54.540 --> 13:56.160]  I sort of faded away at that point.
[13:56.340 --> 14:02.740]  Didn't want to hear any more about it, but I did learn something the next day, which I thought was kind of, uh, kind of, uh, unsettling.
[14:03.060 --> 14:09.360]  And that was, um, that, um, my, my electric company that day had been testing Y2K compliance.
[14:10.360 --> 14:10.760]  Really?
[14:11.000 --> 14:11.400]  Yes.
[14:11.960 --> 14:15.100]  So, uh, the, the nationwide test was April 9th, by the way.
[14:15.140 --> 14:17.540]  That was the day that I lost power, April 9th.
[14:18.280 --> 14:18.920]  Who knows?
[14:19.140 --> 14:22.940]  They said it was because of a downed utility line, but who knows what that really means?
[14:23.360 --> 14:23.800]  You know?
[14:23.940 --> 14:25.260]  Well, it's the, it's the generic excuse.
[14:25.420 --> 14:28.400]  I actually mentioned the April 9th on an earlier program, if I recall.
[14:28.660 --> 14:34.720]  Oh, it wasn't enough to get me, you know, to make me safe from, from... Maybe you'll start listening now, though.
[14:35.260 --> 14:36.080]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[14:36.320 --> 14:37.040]  Okay, we'll see.
[14:37.520 --> 14:39.260]  But the computers worked, the phones worked.
[14:39.880 --> 14:42.800]  And you know, I didn't really mind not having power that much.
[14:43.540 --> 14:44.120]  Oh, okay.
[14:44.240 --> 14:44.840]  It was only an hour.
[14:46.080 --> 14:55.240]  Okay, speaking of stupidity and, and, and things like that, which we do quite often on this show, uh, the FBI, I don't know if you heard about this, this particular case.
[14:55.340 --> 14:56.160]  Well, I've heard of the FBI.
[14:56.320 --> 15:01.280]  Yeah, but this particular case has to do with, uh, um, a website.
[15:02.360 --> 15:03.360]  I've heard of those two.
[15:03.480 --> 15:04.160]  There was a riot.
[15:04.300 --> 15:08.280]  There was a riot at Michigan State University, uh, March 27th and 28th.
[15:08.620 --> 15:10.120]  Um, it's a two day riot.
[15:10.840 --> 15:20.960]  And there was, yeah, there was, there was a, a, um, an anonymous tip line that was put into effect, uh, on a website.
[15:21.900 --> 15:34.540]  And it turns out that, um, simply by entering a URL, which I think, uh, ended in slash anonymous or dot HTML or something like that, you could see all the anonymous tips.
[15:34.780 --> 15:37.700]  You could see what people were saying and who they were.
[15:38.220 --> 15:44.080]  So if you typed in an anonymous tip on this website, it, uh, it, it was logged.
[15:44.240 --> 15:53.160]  And if you knew the right URL to type in, which was not hard to guess, then all that information was, was displayed for you.
[15:53.600 --> 15:57.780]  So it's the not quite anonymous tip line, not anonymous at all.
[15:57.920 --> 15:58.980]  Now here's the thing.
[15:59.100 --> 16:01.220]  Here's the thing that, that really upsets me.
[16:01.380 --> 16:14.080]  The FBI is investigating this according to the Detroit news, investigating an electronic break-in that allowed access to a city computer site with tips to police about the March 27th, 28th riot at Michigan State University.
[16:14.320 --> 16:17.180]  You see how they totally distorted the story now.
[16:17.300 --> 16:19.760]  So they're going to go and track down somebody who typed a string.
[16:19.920 --> 16:24.940]  Meanwhile, the person they should be arresting is the one who screwed up setting up this stupid... Now you get it.
[16:24.960 --> 16:25.580]  Now you get it.
[16:26.200 --> 16:27.480]  Now you see, now you see how the mentality works.
[16:27.760 --> 16:28.340]  Listen to this.
[16:28.480 --> 16:33.640]  Computer hackers were able to see 130 supposedly confidential tips last week.
[16:33.760 --> 16:40.660]  An intruder or intruder sent email messages to MSU students explaining how to access the website and the names of those who provided leads.
[16:40.860 --> 16:45.860]  Now, first of all, right away, computer hackers, the only people that can possibly do this are computer hackers.
[16:46.560 --> 16:50.820]  And all they did was type in a URL, which should not have been accessible in the first place.
[16:50.940 --> 16:57.740]  But it's the same mentality, blaming the people who discover it rather than the people who are responsible for the holes in the first place.
[16:57.900 --> 17:08.440]  The site, with about 50 pictures of rioters, has drawn more than 60,000 visitors and generated more than 500 tips through email, through email web forms and calls.
[17:08.720 --> 17:15.120]  The city removed the web form portion of the site last Tuesday after being told of the break-in by five people.
[17:15.760 --> 17:24.440]  Uh, according to Rod Taylor, information systems manager for East Lansing, Taylor said the FBI is aiding the city's break-in inquiry.
[17:24.540 --> 17:27.800]  Everything we get, we're handing over to the FBI, said Taylor, who added that the U.S.
[17:27.880 --> 17:29.160]  Attorney's Office had offered help.
[17:29.560 --> 17:32.840]  FBI agents confirmed their role, but declined to discuss it on the record.
[17:33.620 --> 17:36.400]  Uh, several possible suspects are being looked at by the FBI.
[17:36.760 --> 17:46.580]  Uh, according to an Ingham County prosecutor, anyone who compromised the site's security safeguards could be charged with a federal offense, even if they weren't the first to do so.
[17:47.160 --> 17:49.860]  Compromising the site's security safeguards?
[17:49.900 --> 17:52.340]  Is this, is this not the most crazy thing you've ever seen?
[17:54.040 --> 17:54.520]  I'm...
[17:54.520 --> 18:00.480]  The county is tabulating its expenses and total damages so those convicted eventually will be required to pay a share.
[18:01.760 --> 18:03.560]  Is it going to come up to 80 million or something?
[18:03.560 --> 18:04.000]  Who knows?
[18:04.300 --> 18:04.620]  Oh, okay.
[18:04.660 --> 18:06.360]  That is how they arrive at figures like that, though.
[18:07.360 --> 18:12.520]  Referring, of course, to Kevin Mitnick being charged with 80 million dollars of damage, which has never even been accounted for in any way.
[18:13.760 --> 18:15.240]  It's, uh, it's nuts.
[18:15.920 --> 18:16.760]  I can laugh at it.
[18:16.760 --> 18:17.840]  I'm somewhat speechless at the moment.
[18:17.840 --> 18:18.500]  No, you are speechless.
[18:18.700 --> 18:19.620]  You're, you're, you're sputtering.
[18:20.980 --> 18:24.240]  And I'm sure a lot of our listeners are sputtering right now, too, as well they should.
[18:25.000 --> 18:25.880]  As well they should.
[18:26.040 --> 18:28.020]  It's, it's, it's a disgrace.
[18:29.580 --> 18:31.140]  I told you all the news is bad today.
[18:31.940 --> 18:32.620]  Well, thank you.
[18:32.720 --> 18:35.120]  So here's, here's the final bit of bad news before we, we get to play.
[18:36.340 --> 18:37.680]  We do have something to play with today.
[18:37.960 --> 18:38.160]  Oh.
[18:38.700 --> 18:40.340]  And I have kind of an interesting story as well.
[18:40.920 --> 18:42.300]  Uh, but first this.
[18:43.440 --> 18:46.400]  I don't know if you've heard of the, uh, the case of Bill Cheek.
[18:47.100 --> 18:47.820]  Bill Cheeks.
[18:48.080 --> 18:50.140]  And, yeah, I'm somewhat familiar with it.
[18:50.440 --> 18:52.060]  Well, he seems to think his name is Bill Cheek.
[18:52.420 --> 18:54.720]  Let me just check the bottom of this, uh, this letter here.
[18:55.640 --> 18:58.420]  Uh, yeah, I'll tell him he's got his name wrong.
[18:58.420 --> 18:58.920]  Okay.
[18:59.600 --> 19:00.900]  Unless you're talking about somebody else.
[19:01.000 --> 19:01.740]  This is Bill Cheek.
[19:01.880 --> 19:03.260]  Well, it's Bill Cheek's story.
[19:04.160 --> 19:04.480]  Okay.
[19:04.540 --> 19:05.780]  Nice save there, Isaac.
[19:05.960 --> 19:06.060]  Fine.
[19:06.280 --> 19:06.380]  Yeah.
[19:06.900 --> 19:07.800]  Uh, Bill Cheek, yeah.
[19:08.020 --> 19:12.560]  This is a letter that came from him, dated, uh, April 11th.
[19:13.220 --> 19:18.320]  And, uh, something I think everybody should listen to because it's very reminiscent of the Bernie S.
[19:18.420 --> 19:21.060]  case and rather ominous for the future.
[19:21.140 --> 19:24.780]  To my friends, associates, and well-wishers, please forgive this, uh, forum letter.
[19:24.780 --> 19:28.060]  Uh, so much email is poured in, I can't possibly answer at all.
[19:28.460 --> 19:32.080]  Uh, I think it's better to offer some kind of an explanation rather than just keep silent.
[19:33.340 --> 19:35.660]  Uh, at about 7 a.m.
[19:35.680 --> 19:45.640]  on Wednesday, March 31st, 1999, Cindy, my wife, and I were enjoying our first cup of coffee of the day, uh, when there came a loud banging on the door.
[19:46.540 --> 19:51.320]  We, uh, figured it was, uh, an early morning overnight FedEx or a UPS delivery.
[19:51.880 --> 19:53.060]  So I answered the door.
[19:54.620 --> 20:00.340]  A badge was shoved in my face with the announcement that there was a warrant for Cindy's and my arrests.
[20:02.000 --> 20:09.120]  And for a search of the premises, I stepped back and a dozen or so armed agents from the U.S.
[20:09.200 --> 20:10.600]  Secret Service, remember them?
[20:10.960 --> 20:11.200]  Yes.
[20:11.460 --> 20:16.380]  FBI, Customs, Postal Inspectors, even a local cop or two charged in.
[20:17.000 --> 20:18.940]  I was handcuffed and put on the couch.
[20:19.800 --> 20:24.740]  Cindy groggily wandered into the area, wondering what the commotion was all about, and was handcuffed.
[20:25.700 --> 20:35.400]  I have to leave out a lot of details for the sake of time and brevity, but the next two hours were a typical TV-style search and seizure situation.
[20:36.280 --> 20:39.820]  Then we were hauled off to be fingerprinted and jailed.
[20:41.260 --> 20:43.740]  That afternoon, we were hauled into U.S.
[20:44.040 --> 20:46.440]  District Court, given public defenders, and released on bail.
[20:47.140 --> 20:50.220]  We didn't actually get out of the slammer until about 9.30 p.m.
[20:50.260 --> 20:50.720]  that evening.
[20:51.420 --> 20:55.960]  We have to appear back in court on April 13th for an identity and removal hearing.
[20:56.120 --> 20:56.700]  That's today, actually.
[20:56.940 --> 20:59.860]  So, uh, something happened today.
[21:00.120 --> 21:01.980]  You still have no idea what this is about, though, do you?
[21:02.740 --> 21:04.520]  Uh, uh, no.
[21:04.780 --> 21:05.420]  No, I do not.
[21:06.040 --> 21:12.380]  Uh, we got home to find 10 computers disconnected and gone, along with most of our business records and a host of other stuff.
[21:13.160 --> 21:14.560]  The worst could be yet to come.
[21:14.640 --> 21:16.360]  Our arrest warrant was issued by a U.S.
[21:16.540 --> 21:18.280]  Magistrate judge in Brooklyn, New York.
[21:18.860 --> 21:22.540]  The warrant specifically addresses a simple data splicer.
[21:22.800 --> 21:25.620]  To wit, exact quote, U.S.
[21:25.700 --> 21:41.840]  Code Title 18, Section 2512, 1A, and 371, conspiring to send in intrastate commerce devices, having reason to know that the design of such a device renders it primarily useful for the purpose of the surreptitious interception of electronic communications to wit,
[21:42.320 --> 21:48.020]  mobile data terminal information broadcast by law enforcement agencies and emergency service organizations.
[21:48.940 --> 21:57.380]  I will leave it to you to interpret those charges, but as written, I can't imagine why companies like Opto Electronics and MFJ Enterprises weren't rated, too.
[21:57.820 --> 22:00.420]  They, and dozens of others, sell the same device.
[22:01.140 --> 22:02.720]  In any event, the matter worsens.
[22:02.840 --> 22:07.460]  Since the warrant was issued by a judge in the Eastern District, Cindy and I apparently have to be tried there.
[22:07.620 --> 22:08.640]  That's out here in New York.
[22:08.920 --> 22:13.760]  It doesn't matter that we can't afford to travel to and fro, coast to coast, and that we have no peers in New York.
[22:13.960 --> 22:15.720]  I've never set foot in the state of New York.
[22:16.600 --> 22:20.920]  The fact is, we'll have to go to New York for the indictment hearing and for the trial should it go that far.
[22:21.060 --> 22:21.980]  That's the bleak side of it.
[22:22.140 --> 22:28.300]  That coupled with the fact that we can't afford to travel nor to hire competent attorneys who are skilled in electronic communications law.
[22:28.440 --> 22:28.920]  Sound familiar?
[22:29.660 --> 22:30.100]  Yeah.
[22:30.980 --> 22:37.000]  On the lighter side, over the days since our arrest, all of our computers have been returned to us, along with copies of most of our business records.
[22:37.280 --> 22:40.060]  We should get 90% of everything back this coming week.
[22:41.160 --> 22:47.100]  A little less regular that they actually got stuff back in a timely fashion in the stories I've heard.
[22:47.400 --> 22:48.340]  Yeah, yeah, that's true.
[22:48.560 --> 22:51.140]  And it's also a bit irregular that they're actually walking around.
[22:51.360 --> 22:51.620]  Yes.
[22:52.700 --> 22:55.940]  I know almost nothing else at this point, at least nothing else that I am free to discuss.
[22:55.940 --> 23:01.980]  I can say that Cindy and I did not knowingly break any laws, and at this stage, I'm not sure that we unknowingly broke any either.
[23:02.660 --> 23:04.800]  At best, I think they got the wrong man and woman.
[23:04.940 --> 23:07.560]  At worst, they got a very tiny fish in a great big puddle.
[23:09.020 --> 23:12.720]  I appreciate all the offers of help, though I can't suggest where help is needed most yet.
[23:12.720 --> 23:17.120]  I guess if the case goes to trial, it would be most helpful to have attorneys who are skilled in communications law.
[23:17.520 --> 23:23.580]  But that is far out of our reach, and unless our financial picture changes, we'll have to accept the services of New York public defenders.
[23:23.840 --> 23:28.360]  Now, this is where groups like ACLU and EFF really need to get off their asses and do something.
[23:28.480 --> 23:33.020]  Because you have people being arrested for selling radio communications equipment.
[23:33.560 --> 23:45.440]  You know, these people are selling things that are common, that have been sold for years, and all of a sudden, because the federal government decides they don't want people listening in on the police anymore, that they're going to put people in jail for having this.
[23:45.440 --> 23:47.200]  This is one of the reasons Bernie S.
[23:47.360 --> 23:49.080]  wound up in prison, because of his interests.
[23:49.420 --> 23:52.820]  And this is what we've been warning about, more cases like this.
[23:53.020 --> 23:56.740]  Well, MDT data slicers aren't any kind of new piece of technology, either.
[23:57.200 --> 23:58.080]  No, absolutely not.
[23:58.260 --> 24:00.300]  It's been around for a while.
[24:00.300 --> 24:04.300]  It's just that, for some reason, somebody managed to piss them off.
[24:05.060 --> 24:06.760]  And, oh, can I say that on the air?
[24:07.140 --> 24:07.800]  Well, you just did.
[24:08.240 --> 24:12.080]  Yeah, but you can find out more about this.
[24:12.080 --> 24:18.280]  I'm looking for a website, www.comtronics.net, C-O-M-T-R-O-N-I-C-S dot net.
[24:18.420 --> 24:19.680]  It's not going to help much.
[24:19.840 --> 24:24.980]  He took down most of the information just to avoid people bothering him.
[24:25.260 --> 24:25.580]  Oh, really?
[24:25.780 --> 24:37.600]  Basically, Bill has a lot of FAQs and products for modifying scanners and radio devices in order to remove the birdies.
[24:37.760 --> 24:39.860]  Well, in any event, you'll be able to contact him.
[24:39.860 --> 24:40.840]  Oh, yes, you can contact him.
[24:40.840 --> 24:45.220]  So, if you are a communications lawyer, now's the time to speak up.
[24:45.380 --> 24:52.740]  You know, I'm going to get a little nastier here because we've been appealing to everybody's better, you know, sides here to help out.
[24:52.860 --> 24:55.120]  But now, you know, I think it's a responsibility.
[24:55.300 --> 25:00.840]  I think you damn well better step up and do something because the whole thing's going to go down the toilet bowl real soon.
[25:00.840 --> 25:09.420]  And, you know, people will be arrested for having scanners and, you know, for having code names and listening in on the wrong things, having the wrong interest, reading the wrong books.
[25:10.140 --> 25:12.080]  So, these laws have to be challenged.
[25:12.480 --> 25:14.820]  These are the tough laws that need to be challenged.
[25:15.500 --> 25:23.940]  And, yeah, you know, you might have to associate yourself with hackers or with people who listen to things that you might not think they should be listening to.
[25:24.000 --> 25:24.640]  Or, I don't know.
[25:24.760 --> 25:26.960]  I don't know what your moral judgments are, but...
[25:26.960 --> 25:27.800]  They're lawyers.
[25:27.800 --> 25:34.800]  The thing is, yeah, the thing is, if you don't speak up now, you know, it's going to be too late real soon.
[25:35.740 --> 25:38.600]  All right, we're going to take a very short break.
[25:38.600 --> 25:41.440]  When we come back, some fun.
[25:41.740 --> 25:42.840]  Something a little bit better.
[25:44.160 --> 25:45.100]  Here on Off the Hull.
[28:01.110 --> 28:01.570]  Okay.
[28:03.050 --> 28:04.730]  It's time for some fun.
[28:05.870 --> 28:08.830]  And fun is something that we just don't have enough of.
[28:09.630 --> 28:11.790]  Well, I got junk mail.
[28:11.930 --> 28:13.250]  Actually, there's nothing fun about junk mail.
[28:13.310 --> 28:13.830]  You all know that.
[28:15.110 --> 28:16.190]  But this was interesting.
[28:16.330 --> 28:17.070]  This piqued my interest.
[28:18.070 --> 28:20.530]  So, I decided to check into it a bit.
[28:21.730 --> 28:25.690]  I remember a couple of months ago, we played around with a system called Net2Phone.
[28:27.390 --> 28:28.090]  Remember that, Isaac?
[28:28.270 --> 28:28.610]  Oh, yes.
[28:28.610 --> 28:29.510]  We talked to Bernie S.
[28:29.630 --> 28:31.810]  down there in Philadelphia, and we used the Net2Phone connection.
[28:31.970 --> 28:32.730]  And it actually wasn't too bad.
[28:32.730 --> 28:40.370]  Yeah, we went over the Internet, and it was a really cheap amount to pay to go over the Internet.
[28:40.490 --> 28:42.350]  You had to use a local number to dial into.
[28:43.910 --> 28:45.530]  But it was still an interesting experiment.
[28:45.670 --> 28:47.050]  Well, I just got something new from them.
[28:48.310 --> 28:48.710]  Net3Phone?
[28:48.870 --> 28:49.950]  No, not Net3Phone.
[28:50.050 --> 28:50.770]  That's not yet.
[28:52.630 --> 28:57.070]  But it was addressed to dear-valued Net2Phone direct customer, which is what I am.
[28:57.110 --> 28:57.510]  That would be it.
[28:58.670 --> 29:01.670]  If you're like most of us these days...
[29:02.490 --> 29:03.430]  That would be me.
[29:03.790 --> 29:04.050]  No.
[29:04.530 --> 29:10.010]  You're probably tied into an email account somewhere and need to retrieve your mail several times a day.
[29:10.250 --> 29:12.770]  But what happens when you don't have your computer with you?
[29:12.870 --> 29:16.950]  You're on the beach, the ski slopes, the treadmill, the car.
[29:17.390 --> 29:18.110]  What then?
[29:18.370 --> 29:19.750]  How do you find out what's happening?
[29:21.090 --> 29:22.890]  Well, here's some good news.
[29:23.490 --> 29:30.710]  As a Net2Phone direct customer, you now have the ability to access your email from any telephone within the continental U.S.
[29:30.910 --> 29:31.930]  without needing a computer.
[29:32.730 --> 29:41.170]  Your Net2Phone voice email address is your 10-digit telephone account number at mailcall.net2phone.com.
[29:42.830 --> 29:46.150]  So I thought that was really cool, so I decided to test it out.
[29:47.730 --> 29:48.250]  And...
[29:48.250 --> 29:50.010]  Well, if I may...
[29:50.010 --> 29:50.190]  Yes.
[29:50.190 --> 29:58.030]  I think I'm missing something in that email is text, and a telephone call is voice.
[29:58.290 --> 30:00.490]  You know, I didn't think about that.
[30:01.350 --> 30:01.830]  All right.
[30:01.910 --> 30:02.710]  I'm trying to set up...
[30:02.710 --> 30:03.110]  Bad idea.
[30:04.110 --> 30:05.730]  We're going to shut down early today.
[30:06.190 --> 30:07.590]  Yes, there's no way this could work.
[30:07.690 --> 30:08.670]  How could it possibly work?
[30:09.030 --> 30:10.070]  It doesn't make any sense.
[30:10.070 --> 30:10.490]  You're right.
[30:10.670 --> 30:11.530]  It's totally nonsense.
[30:11.830 --> 30:12.370]  I'm trying to set up...
[30:12.370 --> 30:15.730]  If you had gotten this letter, you would have crumpled it into a little tiny ball and thrown it into the fire.
[30:15.950 --> 30:16.950]  Well, I'd shred it.
[30:17.170 --> 30:18.350]  But I didn't do that.
[30:18.470 --> 30:18.810]  You didn't?
[30:18.810 --> 30:19.030]  No.
[30:19.250 --> 30:24.510]  I decided to mess around with it, and I got it to work eventually.
[30:24.790 --> 30:25.770]  But I had a little bit of trouble.
[30:25.890 --> 30:26.890]  I'll get into that in a moment.
[30:27.050 --> 30:32.090]  But let me play for you what email sounds like.
[30:32.170 --> 30:34.170]  Because I did send a piece of test email.
[30:34.330 --> 30:36.370]  Can we get a dial tone, please?
[30:37.870 --> 30:38.530]  There we go.
[30:38.530 --> 30:44.790]  Okay, we're going to call the special number here, which I'm going to mute.
[30:46.830 --> 30:48.170]  Because we can only give it out yet.
[30:50.350 --> 30:51.050]  Here we go.
[30:53.670 --> 30:54.490]  Very exciting here.
[30:57.530 --> 30:59.310]  It's exciting if all the digits went through, that is.
[31:00.470 --> 31:01.210]  Sometimes they don't.
[31:03.810 --> 31:05.690]  Yeah, you know, I don't think all the digits went through this time.
[31:05.790 --> 31:06.710]  Welcome to mail call.
[31:06.710 --> 31:07.130]  There we go.
[31:07.230 --> 31:09.330]  To hear a demo, press one pound now.
[31:09.670 --> 31:12.450]  Please enter your customer ID, followed by the pound sign.
[31:12.690 --> 31:16.190]  Okay, we're going to enter the customer ID, followed by the pound sign.
[31:18.990 --> 31:21.730]  Please enter your PIN number, followed by the pound sign.
[31:21.950 --> 31:23.750]  Okay, we're certainly going to keep that one quiet.
[31:27.380 --> 31:28.160]  Retrieving email.
[31:28.460 --> 31:28.940]  Please wait.
[31:30.660 --> 31:33.160]  Emmanuel Goldstein, you have one message.
[31:34.200 --> 31:37.240]  Message one, from Emmanuel Goldstein.
[31:38.280 --> 31:39.300]  Subject, hello.
[31:39.780 --> 31:42.260]  To hear this message with its headers, press one.
[31:42.640 --> 31:45.000]  To hear this message without headers, press six.
[31:45.240 --> 31:47.640]  To continue to the next message, press pound.
[31:47.640 --> 31:50.700]  To send a new message using your address book, press zero.
[31:51.000 --> 31:52.900]  To delete this message, press two.
[31:53.200 --> 31:55.860]  To reply to or forward this message, press three.
[31:56.180 --> 31:58.200]  To fax this message, press four.
[31:58.460 --> 32:00.640]  To go to a particular message, press five.
[32:00.900 --> 32:02.860]  To terminate this call, press star.
[32:03.020 --> 32:04.460]  Okay, let's listen to the headers.
[32:06.840 --> 32:08.620]  From Emmanuel Goldstein.
[32:09.600 --> 32:10.740]  Subject, hello.
[32:11.740 --> 32:16.520]  Date, Tuesday, April 13th, 1999 at 1646.
[32:18.040 --> 32:19.860]  Greetings, Professor Falken.
[32:20.160 --> 32:33.120]  And hello to all of the listeners of Off the Hook on WBAI 99.5 FM in New York City and on the Internet via real audio on our server at www.2600.com.
[32:33.400 --> 32:35.900]  This is Emmanuel Falken without my voice.
[32:36.100 --> 32:41.080]  I'm borrowing this voice for the purposes of demonstrating the text-to-speech conversion.
[32:41.080 --> 32:42.880]  Isn't this a nice voice?
[32:43.180 --> 32:48.040]  Note that I put a question mark on the previous sentence and it sounded like a question.
[32:48.360 --> 32:51.460]  It also understood how to pronounce a word like isn't.
[32:51.460 --> 32:55.660]  I can also change inflection by using punctuation.
[32:55.980 --> 32:57.200]  Allow me to demonstrate.
[32:58.300 --> 33:00.920]  The first example will end with a question mark.
[33:01.240 --> 33:03.080]  The second will end with a period.
[33:03.500 --> 33:06.240]  And the third will end with an exclamation point.
[33:06.680 --> 33:07.960]  Okay, here we go.
[33:07.960 --> 33:10.400]  Who the hell do you think you are?
[33:10.860 --> 33:13.140]  Who the hell do you think you are?
[33:13.580 --> 33:15.460]  Who the hell do you think you are?
[33:16.140 --> 33:17.980]  Pretty entertaining, isn't it?
[33:18.360 --> 33:20.080]  But wait, check this out.
[33:20.320 --> 33:25.500]  This thing is smart enough to know the proper pronunciation for words that are spelled the same.
[33:25.900 --> 33:29.420]  For instance, I am very content with the content of this message.
[33:29.800 --> 33:30.240]  See?
[33:30.240 --> 33:34.620]  The word, content, was spelled the same way but pronounced differently.
[33:35.200 --> 33:41.360]  And in case you thought it was impossible to transmit those little smiley faces, think again.
[33:41.660 --> 33:44.920]  I'm going to type the standard smiley face right now.
[33:45.300 --> 33:45.740]  Aha!
[33:46.200 --> 33:48.780]  Now I'm going to type one with a semicolon.
[33:49.280 --> 33:49.560]  Wink.
[33:49.960 --> 33:52.460]  And finally, the opposite of a smile.
[33:52.920 --> 33:53.320]  Grown.
[33:53.800 --> 33:55.560]  Well, that's all for now.
[33:55.820 --> 33:59.360]  I hope everyone found this interesting and enlightening and all that crap.
[33:59.360 --> 34:01.540]  We now return you to the studios.
[34:02.660 --> 34:03.320]  Oh, yeah.
[34:03.540 --> 34:04.260]  One more thing.
[34:05.220 --> 34:05.740]  Free Kevin.
[34:06.340 --> 34:08.980]  To hear this message again with its headers, press one.
[34:09.640 --> 34:10.600]  Oh, that was great.
[34:11.300 --> 34:12.200]  That was great.
[34:12.420 --> 34:13.160]  Okay, hang on.
[34:13.200 --> 34:14.040]  That's a local scheme.
[34:15.100 --> 34:16.100]  Subject, hello.
[34:16.640 --> 34:20.800]  Okay, we don't want to hear that again, so I'm going to turn that down.
[34:21.720 --> 34:27.680]  And we're going to go now to our special guest who joins us, who is actually the voice of...
[34:27.680 --> 34:31.300]  Not the voice of the computer, but the voice of the person giving the prompts.
[34:31.500 --> 34:31.720]  Really?
[34:32.560 --> 34:33.700]  Ron Schnell, I believe.
[34:33.780 --> 34:34.100]  Are you there?
[34:35.520 --> 34:35.920]  Hello?
[34:36.620 --> 34:36.980]  Uh-oh.
[34:37.580 --> 34:37.860]  Hang on.
[34:37.900 --> 34:38.400]  Did I lose him?
[34:38.640 --> 34:39.380]  You lost Ron.
[34:39.600 --> 34:40.160]  Oh, hold on.
[34:40.220 --> 34:42.680]  I couldn't have lost him, because he's right there.
[34:43.480 --> 34:46.340]  Okay, let me hit the hold button again.
[34:46.560 --> 34:50.960]  Let me hit this button, and that button, and then I'll press this one here.
[34:51.300 --> 34:51.840]  Ron, are you there?
[34:53.780 --> 34:55.160]  Okay, well, I'm going to get him back.
[34:55.440 --> 34:56.760]  I promise I will.
[34:59.920 --> 35:01.440]  I think the computer is still there, though.
[35:02.740 --> 35:03.040]  Okay.
[35:03.300 --> 35:05.560]  Isaac, you fill some time while I get Ron back.
[35:05.800 --> 35:06.840]  I can fill some time?
[35:06.980 --> 35:07.200]  Yes.
[35:07.540 --> 35:07.740]  What?
[35:08.160 --> 35:09.640]  Oh, somebody's coming over here.
[35:09.680 --> 35:10.380]  I can do it better.
[35:11.960 --> 35:20.440]  Systems like this have been around for quite some time, and they've actually done some pretty interesting things, using fairly standard natural language, you know, stuff.
[35:20.440 --> 35:31.760]  For example, they can read your mail and give you sensible abstracts, the entire piece of mail, which is a far more clever trick than, you know, saying wink at winks and grown-up frowns.
[35:32.760 --> 35:38.560]  And the nice thing is, is that, you know, they can run on your personal computer if you so desire, namely the Macintosh.
[35:39.020 --> 35:39.540]  Oh, yes.
[35:39.580 --> 35:41.340]  They don't sound like Dr. Spades, though, either.
[35:43.860 --> 35:48.140]  Well, the Mac actually carries a bunch of different voices, for instance, Trinoids, if you recall.
[35:48.420 --> 35:49.200]  Those are fun.
[35:49.280 --> 35:50.240]  They've been sued over that.
[35:50.440 --> 35:51.700]  Okay, Ron, are you with us now?
[35:54.520 --> 35:55.120]  Ron, are you there?
[35:55.340 --> 35:55.760]  Hang on.
[35:57.020 --> 35:58.140]  I don't know what's wrong with this phone.
[35:58.440 --> 35:59.460]  For some reason...
[36:01.960 --> 36:02.760]  Are you there?
[36:05.880 --> 36:08.100]  Okay, I don't understand what's going on, because he is on the phone.
[36:08.380 --> 36:09.040]  I just talked to him.
[36:09.820 --> 36:10.660]  Okay, continue talking.
[36:11.540 --> 36:11.920]  Oh, okay.
[36:12.220 --> 36:12.980]  We can see what's going on.
[36:13.180 --> 36:13.300]  Yes.
[36:17.960 --> 36:19.380]  Well, come, speak more.
[36:19.600 --> 36:21.680]  Well, there are lots of really nifty things.
[36:21.880 --> 36:25.460]  You know, if you're interested in natural language stuff, there's lots of really cool things you can read.
[36:27.260 --> 36:32.800]  Namely, for example, you can look at SRI International, who does a lot of work at natural language stuff.
[36:32.860 --> 36:41.400]  There's a really nice system called Relatus, which is a very fast way to strip abstracts out of a document.
[36:41.740 --> 36:43.240]  And there are similar projects like this.
[36:43.560 --> 36:45.600]  You know, a typical AI...
[36:45.600 --> 36:47.420]  Okay, let's try this one more time.
[36:47.560 --> 36:48.040]  Ron, are you there?
[36:49.460 --> 36:52.980]  Okay, I think it's this instrument, for some reason, is malfunctioning.
[36:54.780 --> 36:55.320]  Let's see.
[36:55.380 --> 36:56.540]  What I'm going to do...
[36:56.540 --> 37:03.060]  What I'm going to do, Ron, if you can hear me, is I'm going to call you live, because I know I can get a dial tone live on the air.
[37:03.060 --> 37:05.000]  I think there's something wrong with picking up the phone in the middle.
[37:05.440 --> 37:07.100]  So that's my analysis on the air.
[37:07.240 --> 37:07.740]  So let me...
[37:07.740 --> 37:10.400]  I'm going to hang up this phone, and then we're going to call you back live.
[37:11.060 --> 37:12.540]  That's the only thing that seems to work.
[37:12.740 --> 37:13.640]  Muting the number, of course.
[37:13.840 --> 37:14.080]  Yeah.
[37:15.340 --> 37:15.960]  You know what?
[37:15.960 --> 37:16.880]  I'm not getting...
[37:17.880 --> 37:18.740]  Oh, that's weird.
[37:18.860 --> 37:19.080]  Okay.
[37:19.620 --> 37:20.180]  You know what?
[37:20.180 --> 37:21.240]  Somebody reversed this.
[37:21.740 --> 37:22.640]  See this pot here?
[37:22.820 --> 37:23.300]  Yes, I do.
[37:23.480 --> 37:26.100]  It used to be this one got you the phone, and this one didn't.
[37:26.580 --> 37:26.940]  Now...
[37:26.940 --> 37:27.940]  Oh, somebody reversed it.
[37:28.040 --> 37:28.180]  Okay.
[37:28.900 --> 37:29.200]  Well...
[37:29.200 --> 37:30.660]  Pot standing for potentiometer.
[37:30.820 --> 37:32.300]  Okay, my mistake...
[37:32.300 --> 37:33.520]  Actually, it's not really my mistake.
[37:33.520 --> 37:35.100]  I just didn't realize it at the time.
[37:36.560 --> 37:36.940]  All right.
[37:37.940 --> 37:38.300]  And...
[37:38.700 --> 37:40.300]  We are now, hopefully...
[37:42.460 --> 37:44.740]  Ringing Ron on his cell phone someplace.
[37:48.080 --> 37:48.720]  Anybody here?
[37:48.800 --> 37:49.140]  Yes.
[37:49.300 --> 37:49.480]  Okay.
[37:49.500 --> 37:50.480]  I'm really sorry about that, Ron.
[37:51.140 --> 37:52.980]  You're not supposed to be some kind of phone freaks, aren't you?
[37:52.980 --> 37:53.160]  Yeah.
[37:53.280 --> 37:53.840]  Well, you know...
[37:53.840 --> 38:01.280]  You know, we are phone freaks, but the thing is that occasionally somebody messes with the board and changes things, and it's not labeled.
[38:01.680 --> 38:02.460]  Must have been Kevin.
[38:02.620 --> 38:03.120]  He must have done it.
[38:03.120 --> 38:04.260]  Kevin is responsible.
[38:04.360 --> 38:08.160]  Now, let me give you a little background here first before we really talk to Ron here.
[38:08.580 --> 38:14.580]  As I said, I had a little bit of trouble setting up this account through NettoPhone.
[38:16.560 --> 38:21.540]  So I called up the customer service number, and I checked into...
[38:21.540 --> 38:23.260]  I wanted to know why it wasn't working.
[38:23.420 --> 38:24.640]  You know, there's something wrong with it.
[38:24.840 --> 38:28.980]  And I knew something was weird right away when the guy on the other end of the phone seemed to know what I was talking about.
[38:29.080 --> 38:30.280]  You know, you're not used to that kind of thing.
[38:30.280 --> 38:35.720]  You know, as far as send mail errors and various other problems that you might have.
[38:35.840 --> 38:43.260]  Usually expect the customer representative to not have any idea what's going on and give you the old, you know, treatment of, you know, it's supposed to work, sir.
[38:43.280 --> 38:44.180]  I don't know why it doesn't work.
[38:44.380 --> 38:50.580]  And then when I sent the test mail, Ron here responded by saying, hey, you're with 2,600.
[38:51.820 --> 38:56.020]  Well, gee whiz, I'm an old friend of Kevin Mitnick's.
[38:56.260 --> 38:56.480]  Really?
[38:56.880 --> 38:58.000]  Isn't this a small world?
[38:58.740 --> 39:00.460]  So, Ron, perhaps you could take it from there.
[39:01.220 --> 39:05.160]  Yeah, I knew Kevin back in the early 80s, late 70s.
[39:05.300 --> 39:05.720]  Mm-hmm.
[39:06.820 --> 39:10.360]  And Roscoe, Lewis De Payne, and people like that.
[39:10.480 --> 39:13.080]  And now I'm doing legit stuff.
[39:13.820 --> 39:14.100]  Uh-huh.
[39:14.520 --> 39:18.300]  Well, it's a good example of how people can do legit stuff.
[39:18.460 --> 39:26.460]  You know, a lot of people think that when someone is into the hacking world that that's what they're going to be for the rest of their lives, that they're never going to do anything constructive.
[39:27.100 --> 39:28.960]  But I think you've proven them wrong.
[39:29.080 --> 39:30.520]  You're doing something really, really good here.
[39:30.720 --> 39:31.220]  Thank you.
[39:31.400 --> 39:32.720]  I'm the founder of Mail Call.
[39:33.860 --> 39:35.740]  And you found Mail Call through NettoFone.
[39:35.840 --> 39:37.500]  That's one way that people can use it.
[39:37.640 --> 39:41.700]  They can also just go to mailcall.net and find out about the service that way.
[39:41.880 --> 39:45.900]  The good thing about using it through NettoFone is that you don't need to do anything special.
[39:46.080 --> 39:48.720]  You already have the email account set up.
[39:49.180 --> 39:55.400]  And you can just do star MC or, you know, star 62, I guess, and start using it right away.
[39:55.560 --> 40:04.520]  But the point of the service is really to be able to stay in touch with your email while you're on the road, be able to listen to it, reply to it with your voice, and that sort of thing.
[40:04.640 --> 40:06.180]  Yeah, and we just demonstrated it here.
[40:06.360 --> 40:13.900]  And, you know, it really was interesting being able to transmit all that emotion and punctuation, things like that.
[40:14.020 --> 40:16.860]  It's a little better than what I expected to hear.
[40:16.960 --> 40:19.520]  I expected to hear that voice, but I expected it to be more monotone.
[40:20.040 --> 40:20.780]  Well, yeah, thanks.
[40:20.960 --> 40:26.480]  I mean, it still sounds computery, but we're ahead of where we were about five years ago, that's for sure.
[40:26.480 --> 40:29.500]  On the website, I noticed you could select between different voices.
[40:30.300 --> 40:31.100]  Yes, you can.
[40:31.360 --> 40:38.900]  Right now, there are five different voice types with three pitches each, and we're going to be adding some improved voices in the near future as well.
[40:39.080 --> 40:41.560]  The cool thing about the service is that you can actually...
[40:41.560 --> 40:44.880]  you don't have to use it with your NettoFone email address, for example.
[40:45.080 --> 40:55.120]  If you have an account on, say, an IDP internet or MindSpring or one of the other internet providers, you can actually use MailCall with your existing email account.
[40:56.480 --> 40:58.180]  We'll grab the mail straight through a popper?
[40:58.660 --> 40:59.540]  Yes, exactly.
[41:00.000 --> 41:08.540]  I noticed that in the letter, it says, as long as your current email account is not with America Online, it's easy to switch from the account we provided you already.
[41:09.140 --> 41:09.800]  That's right.
[41:10.020 --> 41:10.740]  What's behind that?
[41:11.000 --> 41:15.120]  That's simply because America Online is not POP3 compliant.
[41:15.120 --> 41:23.580]  They have a proprietary email system, and they want you to see their ads while you're looking at your email, and they wouldn't like people using something like us.
[41:25.840 --> 41:26.320]  Interesting.
[41:27.100 --> 41:34.800]  Well, can you give us an idea of some of the other uses for this service that we might have already thought of?
[41:35.180 --> 41:36.360]  We have people...
[41:36.360 --> 41:46.660]  I mean, typically our callers are calling from the car or train or whatever while they're commuting, catching up on their email, replying to the ones that are important just by using their voice.
[41:47.620 --> 41:48.880]  People use it from planes.
[41:48.880 --> 42:00.040]  I've got a lot of people who use it actually from their house because they don't feel like walking upstairs, booting the computer up, waiting for it to boot, waiting to get a good internet connection, and all that, waiting to download the messages.
[42:00.240 --> 42:03.260]  I mean, there are really a lot of different ways you can make use of it.
[42:03.340 --> 42:05.000]  It's a productivity tool, really.
[42:05.060 --> 42:07.300]  You said something about replying with your voice?
[42:07.800 --> 42:08.120]  Yes.
[42:08.260 --> 42:08.740]  How does that work?
[42:09.160 --> 42:13.620]  Well, it's not voice recognition because we don't want people to have to sit there training on the phone or anything.
[42:13.960 --> 42:24.440]  So what it does, it creates an audio, a .au file attachment and attaches that to the reply so that as long as your recipient has speakers, they can just click on it and hear it.
[42:24.820 --> 42:25.600]  Oh, that's interesting.
[42:26.180 --> 42:26.620]  Right.
[42:27.380 --> 42:28.120]  And there are other...
[42:28.120 --> 42:29.400]  Well, you can also reply...
[42:29.400 --> 42:30.860]  You can touchstone in a phone number.
[42:30.940 --> 42:33.360]  It'll send a reply saying, please call me at this phone number.
[42:34.400 --> 42:36.960]  Yeah, it says there are five pre-recorded responses.
[42:37.780 --> 42:38.600]  Yeah, that's...
[42:38.600 --> 42:40.780]  I was about to mention that'd be a good idea.
[42:41.220 --> 42:43.440]  Yeah, we have yes, no, I'll get back to you shortly.
[42:44.380 --> 42:46.180]  Please don't call this number ever again.
[42:46.700 --> 42:47.100]  Right.
[42:47.100 --> 42:59.360]  We also have some filtering so that if you get some daily mailing list messages that you don't want to be bothered with on the road, you can just put the subject or the sender of those messages in your filter options and it won't bother you with those.
[42:59.500 --> 43:00.160]  That's good, too.
[43:00.280 --> 43:01.920]  How long can the message coming in be?
[43:02.780 --> 43:03.620]  That doesn't matter.
[43:03.840 --> 43:05.640]  As long as you're willing to stay on the phone, I guess.
[43:06.000 --> 43:10.480]  So I could have sent the whole e-zine to myself just now and listened for an hour.
[43:11.060 --> 43:11.320]  Wow.
[43:12.080 --> 43:14.600]  You can speed up and slow down while you're listening to it.
[43:14.880 --> 43:16.500]  Skip around between messages.
[43:16.920 --> 43:19.600]  You can fax a message as you probably just heard.
[43:19.860 --> 43:25.420]  You can actually send a new email using your voice because you can maintain an address book on the web page.
[43:27.300 --> 43:28.260]  This is very cool.
[43:28.440 --> 43:29.240]  Yeah, it is pretty cool.
[43:29.400 --> 43:30.520]  I had a lot of fun playing with this.
[43:30.620 --> 43:31.000]  Two points.
[43:31.000 --> 43:37.880]  It was just such a trip running into somebody who actually, A, knew who 2600 was and B, knew Kevin personally.
[43:39.760 --> 43:44.000]  We're going to give out the website in just a second, but first, tell us, when did you know Kevin?
[43:44.080 --> 43:45.020]  What was he like back then?
[43:45.500 --> 43:47.640]  He was pretty cool.
[43:47.780 --> 43:49.780]  I mean, he wasn't...
[43:50.800 --> 43:52.740]  He knew everything there was to know about phones.
[43:52.900 --> 43:59.500]  I mean, that was during the time when he turned off most of Northern California's phone in a single night.
[44:01.060 --> 44:10.280]  And most of the stuff he was doing was directly involved with phone companies and Cosmos and getting root access on Cosmos and that kind of thing.
[44:11.940 --> 44:13.220]  And how long ago was this?
[44:13.680 --> 44:16.640]  I guess that was somewhere 79, 80, 81.
[44:18.320 --> 44:18.840]  Interesting.
[44:19.280 --> 44:20.900]  Are you even following the case?
[44:21.740 --> 44:25.560]  Just what I read in your magazine and on the net.
[44:27.240 --> 44:28.960]  He's not allowed to talk to me anymore.
[44:29.420 --> 44:30.560]  Well, he's not allowed to do a lot of things.
[44:30.760 --> 44:39.120]  And in fact, when he does get out, supposedly he won't be allowed to even talk to anybody about computers for three years, which is insane.
[44:39.740 --> 44:43.540]  That book, Cyberpunk, actually has a little, a small paragraph that mentions me.
[44:43.540 --> 44:44.880]  I'm in the index in that book.
[44:45.080 --> 44:45.380]  Uh-huh.
[44:46.740 --> 44:47.140]  Fascinating.
[44:47.240 --> 44:53.880]  Okay, well, give us the website so people who are interested in being part of this can become part of it.
[44:54.100 --> 44:55.360]  It's mailcall.net.
[44:55.580 --> 44:57.800]  And you can sign up right there online.
[44:57.800 --> 44:59.720]  If you sign up, you get immediate access.
[44:59.920 --> 45:02.540]  There's no human intervention or anything like that.
[45:03.760 --> 45:03.960]  Okay.
[45:04.680 --> 45:10.980]  Ron, I want to thank you very much for, A, helping set up the account, and, B, just for talking to us tonight.
[45:11.080 --> 45:14.320]  And if you have any other things come up down the road, let us know.
[45:14.820 --> 45:15.540]  Thanks for having me.
[45:15.680 --> 45:15.900]  All right.
[45:16.000 --> 45:16.320]  Take care.
[45:16.760 --> 45:16.940]  You too.
[45:17.360 --> 45:21.260]  We're going to take some phone calls at 212-209-2900.
[45:21.380 --> 45:22.180]  The program is off the hook.
[45:22.180 --> 45:23.600]  We're on the air until 9 o'clock.
[45:24.840 --> 45:25.780]  I thought that was kind of cool.
[45:26.080 --> 45:26.860]  That was very cool.
[45:26.900 --> 45:27.040]  Yeah.
[45:27.200 --> 45:27.520]  I mean...
[45:27.520 --> 45:28.000]  I was impressed.
[45:28.160 --> 45:30.580]  I was very impressed because, oh, you have a copy of Cyberpunk with you, huh?
[45:30.660 --> 45:30.960]  Well, yeah.
[45:31.100 --> 45:34.140]  I stopped on the way over here and I bought, like, 10 books for $2.
[45:34.520 --> 45:35.860]  And lo and behold, Cyberpunk.
[45:36.520 --> 45:38.200]  You didn't buy 10 cyberpunks?
[45:38.580 --> 45:39.080]  No, no, no.
[45:39.160 --> 45:39.320]  Okay.
[45:39.460 --> 45:42.500]  Random books, but one of them was there and I never owned a copy of Cyberpunk.
[45:43.260 --> 45:43.960]  Well, there you go.
[45:44.740 --> 45:48.760]  Now I feel suddenly, you know, as though I were less of a human being.
[45:48.880 --> 45:49.320]  Throw it over here.
[45:49.480 --> 45:50.260]  You want to check the index?
[45:50.400 --> 45:53.280]  Yeah, I'm going to check the index because I have the spelling of his name right here.
[45:53.560 --> 45:54.540]  See what it says about him.
[45:54.780 --> 45:57.000]  But that's a very cool service.
[45:57.500 --> 45:58.040]  I'm impressed.
[45:58.060 --> 45:58.700]  Yeah, he is in here.
[46:00.820 --> 46:02.080]  Page 77 to 78.
[46:02.700 --> 46:05.940]  Let's see what what it says here.
[46:08.460 --> 46:12.500]  During his year-long absence, Kevin did leave a hint or two that he was still in business.
[46:12.640 --> 46:20.780]  One day in early 1985, Roscoe came across the phone number of Ronnie Schnell, an old bulletin board buddy from his eight BBS days and decided to call.
[46:21.000 --> 46:25.120]  When Roscoe reminded him of who he was, Ronnie sounded surprised.
[46:25.760 --> 46:27.940]  Oh, I have Kevin Mitnick on the other line.
[46:28.060 --> 46:29.920]  He wants me to get him an ARPANET account.
[46:30.200 --> 46:33.220]  Roscoe was amused and he counted the seconds before his phone rang.
[46:33.400 --> 46:35.260]  How did you know I was calling Ronnie?
[46:35.440 --> 46:38.240]  Kevin demanded when he called Roscoe ten seconds later.
[46:38.480 --> 46:43.000]  It was a mite odd that four years had passed since either Kevin or Roscoe had talked to Ronnie.
[46:43.340 --> 46:48.820]  Kevin was on the lam, determined to keep his whereabouts secret, and suddenly Roscoe happened to be on the line at the same time.
[46:49.140 --> 46:53.860]  However much Roscoe tried to tell him it was a coincidence, Kevin remained unconvinced.
[46:54.860 --> 46:55.580]  That's the whole thing.
[46:56.340 --> 46:56.840]  All right.
[46:57.280 --> 46:57.740]  There you go.
[46:58.220 --> 46:58.800]  Oh, sorry.
[46:59.360 --> 47:00.560]  All right, let's take some phone calls.
[47:00.620 --> 47:02.040]  212-209-2900.
[47:02.120 --> 47:03.100]  You know, it's a small world.
[47:03.220 --> 47:03.720]  It really is.
[47:03.820 --> 47:04.920]  Yeah, someone had to say that.
[47:06.160 --> 47:06.480]  All right.
[47:06.480 --> 47:08.880]  As long as we didn't sing it, that would have been very bad.
[47:09.080 --> 47:09.980]  Yeah, let's go over here.
[47:10.160 --> 47:11.020]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[47:11.420 --> 47:12.020]  Yes, hi.
[47:12.360 --> 47:17.980]  Last week you were talking about you can get someone's phone number calling through Sprint and stuff.
[47:18.560 --> 47:21.360]  Well, I have a program I'd like to send you.
[47:22.160 --> 47:22.980]  It's a ProScript.
[47:23.220 --> 47:31.040]  All you would have to do is type in the person's phone number, and no matter where they are in the U.S., you'll get their full name and their address.
[47:32.020 --> 47:32.380]  Really?
[47:32.500 --> 47:33.940]  You don't even have to go through the phone number anymore.
[47:34.120 --> 47:35.960]  This is based on an online database?
[47:36.260 --> 47:36.660]  Yes, it is.
[47:36.680 --> 47:36.980]  Yes, it is.
[47:37.260 --> 47:43.500]  I'm not quite sure of the exact place, but it's an online database that has the stores pretty much anything.
[47:44.460 --> 47:48.860]  I tried family in California and Baltimore.
[47:49.860 --> 47:51.820]  It works most everywhere.
[47:52.020 --> 47:54.060]  Now, is this something that's available online to everybody?
[47:55.660 --> 47:59.240]  It's a script a friend of mine wrote, but I sent you.
[47:59.360 --> 48:00.860]  I don't know if you want to distribute it.
[48:01.120 --> 48:03.020]  But it's a script that accesses what?
[48:03.360 --> 48:05.160]  It's an online database.
[48:06.040 --> 48:07.540]  An unnamed online database.
[48:07.540 --> 48:08.980]  You can't name the online database?
[48:09.160 --> 48:09.940]  Do you know what it is?
[48:10.100 --> 48:10.380]  You know what?
[48:11.080 --> 48:12.560]  My computer's on to go take a look.
[48:12.800 --> 48:13.100]  Okay.
[48:13.300 --> 48:13.780]  Give me a second.
[48:15.120 --> 48:18.520]  Because there are plenty of phone book type listings online.
[48:18.960 --> 48:19.260]  Right.
[48:19.500 --> 48:20.660]  Some of them are more accurate than others.
[48:20.820 --> 48:21.940]  Some of them aren't accurate at all.
[48:22.120 --> 48:26.300]  Yeah, I've tried them and this thing I've tried in like 20 different numbers.
[48:26.480 --> 48:26.860]  Uh-huh.
[48:27.200 --> 48:28.000]  Okay, let me get it out.
[48:28.200 --> 48:29.920]  Were they unlisted numbers or listed?
[48:30.300 --> 48:31.080]  They were unlisted numbers.
[48:31.140 --> 48:36.560]  Yeah, well, my family in Baltimore was unlisted numbers and they said, well, I bet you can't find it and then I found them anyway.
[48:36.780 --> 48:37.020]  Uh-huh.
[48:38.460 --> 48:40.800]  Oh, that's what happens these days, you know.
[48:40.960 --> 48:42.840]  Unlisted numbers really aren't all that unlisted.
[48:43.120 --> 48:46.960]  Okay, it's api.databaseamerica.com.
[48:47.900 --> 48:49.260]  I've heard of Database America.
[48:49.480 --> 48:49.700]  Yeah.
[48:50.460 --> 48:53.240]  But I've never actually used them so I don't really know for sure.
[48:53.240 --> 48:59.700]  but what I'll do is I'll look up some unlisted numbers and then I'll see if that's actually the case.
[48:59.960 --> 49:00.640]  Now you say you have a script.
[49:00.740 --> 49:01.340]  What does the script do?
[49:02.080 --> 49:13.640]  Instead of you having to roll all the nonsense it'll just look up the site type in yeah, name, address and print it out in a nice little box that says name, address, results, etc.
[49:13.920 --> 49:14.840]  Okay, we'll send that along.
[49:15.020 --> 49:15.880]  You have our email, right?
[49:16.060 --> 49:16.220]  Yeah.
[49:16.460 --> 49:17.420]  What was that?
[49:17.800 --> 49:19.180]  OTH at 2600.com.
[49:19.320 --> 49:20.200]  OTH at 2600.com.
[49:20.300 --> 49:20.820]  All right, thanks a lot.
[49:20.940 --> 49:21.340]  Thanks for calling.
[49:21.420 --> 49:21.620]  Bye-bye.
[49:21.920 --> 49:22.360]  That'll be fun.
[49:22.360 --> 49:23.500]  Yeah, send us your scripts, folks.
[49:23.640 --> 49:25.620]  That's, you know more scripts the better.
[49:25.860 --> 49:28.740]  Well, we accept movie scripts and television dramas as well.
[49:28.940 --> 49:29.960]  Yeah, you heard us script kitties.
[49:30.120 --> 49:31.580]  We're script grown-ups.
[49:31.900 --> 49:32.100]  Yes.
[49:33.420 --> 49:37.100]  And, yeah, fear us because we can do all kinds of things with those scripts.
[49:37.360 --> 49:38.360]  We are 31337.
[49:39.300 --> 49:39.620]  Yes.
[49:39.800 --> 49:40.160]  Oh, yes.
[49:40.540 --> 49:41.460]  I'm eight, actually.
[49:41.560 --> 49:41.780]  Oh, you're eight?
[49:41.780 --> 49:41.960]  Good evening.
[49:42.100 --> 49:42.500]  You're on the air.
[49:42.940 --> 49:43.520]  Hi, Emmanuel.
[49:43.680 --> 49:44.560]  And this is number nine.
[49:44.980 --> 49:45.580]  Number nine.
[49:45.680 --> 49:46.060]  I'm last.
[49:46.540 --> 49:47.260]  I just want to tell you...
[49:47.260 --> 49:48.100]  Well, you said it, not me.
[49:48.200 --> 49:48.700]  But, yeah, go ahead.
[49:48.800 --> 49:50.720]  I want to tell you of the following things.
[49:50.980 --> 49:53.860]  Did you know that He's reading off a pad of paper now.
[49:54.720 --> 49:56.820]  Did you know that...
[49:56.820 --> 49:57.680]  See, you hear it?
[49:57.780 --> 49:58.560]  Do you hear the pad of paper?
[49:59.960 --> 50:00.880]  We can see you.
[50:00.900 --> 50:02.140]  We're looking at you through the phone.
[50:02.280 --> 50:03.600]  There's a camera on your phone.
[50:03.680 --> 50:09.740]  I mean, isn't it annoying that a lot of pay phone calls, local calls around the country are 35 cents?
[50:10.160 --> 50:11.500]  Around the country, you say?
[50:11.620 --> 50:11.900]  Yeah.
[50:12.160 --> 50:14.600]  Well, yeah, but, you know, that's one more reason to stay home.
[50:15.240 --> 50:17.140]  You know, because they're only 25 cents here.
[50:17.420 --> 50:21.440]  And did you know that you should make your checks and your deposits for the year 2000 compliant?
[50:21.600 --> 50:27.880]  In other words, on some checks and deposit tickets, they'll have date, a line, and then a 19...
[50:27.880 --> 50:28.300]  Yeah, I know.
[50:28.420 --> 50:31.280]  I ran out of checks last year and they replaced them with ones that...
[50:31.280 --> 50:33.160]  I keep doing it wrong.
[50:33.300 --> 50:35.440]  I keep putting the date in the wrong place now because I'm so used to it.
[50:35.560 --> 50:38.760]  But, you know, that's not the kind of thing that's going to result in disaster, I don't think.
[50:38.760 --> 50:39.280]  No, no, no, no.
[50:39.280 --> 50:40.120]  I was just mentioning that.
[50:40.220 --> 50:43.420]  And also, did you know that AT&T call completion works on co-cats?
[50:44.060 --> 50:44.380]  Really?
[50:44.640 --> 50:46.500]  In other words, you can go to a co-cat.
[50:46.800 --> 51:04.380]  If you want to make a long-distance call to California, let's say, let's say, you dial 10-10-280, if it lets you dial this, and then one area code 555-1212, and we're providing just one area code 555-1212, the AT&T will come on, you ask for your name and listing,
[51:04.580 --> 51:11.380]  they'll give you the name and listing, and they'll give you the option that'll say the number can be automatically dialed by pressing 1.
[51:11.540 --> 51:17.240]  And you'll press 1, you'll get connected with the number for however much the co-cat asks you for, whether it's 75 cents or 50 cents.
[51:17.380 --> 51:19.200]  So you get connected for the cost of information.
[51:25.840 --> 51:28.200]  AT&T, and you can talk for however long you want.
[51:28.420 --> 51:29.380]  That's got a week.
[51:29.540 --> 51:32.480]  What do you think of this nationwide information 411?
[51:32.800 --> 51:34.760]  I tried that for local information, you mean?
[51:34.900 --> 51:35.200]  Right.
[51:35.360 --> 51:37.500]  Yeah, I tried that, and there's a flaw with that, too.
[51:37.580 --> 51:46.720]  If you go to a charger call phone, a coinless pay phone, and you have the United Atlantic Operator dial the information for you, you can get free national directory assistance.
[51:48.180 --> 51:48.540]  Interesting.
[51:48.800 --> 51:53.000]  I hardly consider that a flaw, but you know, I do want to demonstrate something in the moments we have left.
[51:56.140 --> 51:57.680]  Bell Atlantic directory assistance.
[51:57.960 --> 52:02.380]  Do you remember, I don't know if you remember if you're old enough for this, Isaac, but when you used to dial 411, you get a human.
[52:02.620 --> 52:02.880]  Yes.
[52:02.880 --> 52:03.260]  Do you remember that?
[52:03.380 --> 52:04.180]  I recall.
[52:04.180 --> 52:05.020]  And it would be instant.
[52:05.020 --> 52:05.520]  I'm not that young.
[52:05.680 --> 52:06.640]  It would be instant.
[52:06.740 --> 52:09.180]  You dial 411, click, bang, boom, you got a human.
[52:09.600 --> 52:13.680]  You'd hear a whole lot of clicks, but it would be so quick that you actually got through immediately.
[52:13.840 --> 52:14.440]  Well, listen now.
[52:14.540 --> 52:14.900]  Listen now.
[52:14.980 --> 52:15.960]  Listen to what happens.
[52:16.060 --> 52:17.460]  I assume our phone system will work.
[52:19.040 --> 52:19.660]  Of course not.
[52:19.860 --> 52:20.880]  Oh, I forgot.
[52:21.140 --> 52:21.740]  The other part.
[52:22.000 --> 52:22.260]  All right.
[52:22.500 --> 52:23.340]  We're going to dial 411 now.
[52:23.340 --> 52:24.140]  Listen to how long it takes.
[52:27.080 --> 52:27.400]  Okay.
[52:27.700 --> 52:29.120]  It's certainly not an instant click here.
[52:34.870 --> 52:37.110]  This is the new computer age we're dealing with here.
[52:40.530 --> 52:41.930]  Is James Earl Jones going to come on?
[52:42.330 --> 52:43.050]  He's supposed to.
[52:43.270 --> 52:43.430]  Oh.
[52:46.130 --> 52:47.350]  This is excessively long, though.
[52:47.410 --> 52:49.030]  It might be our phone system not allowing 411.
[52:52.210 --> 52:52.850]  Okay, well...
[52:52.850 --> 52:53.810]  Well, I guess your point's been made.
[52:53.890 --> 52:56.790]  Well, no, it hasn't been made, really, because I don't think this is right.
[52:57.010 --> 52:58.510]  I don't think it's supposed to take this long.
[52:59.670 --> 53:03.650]  All right, well, here's what happens when you dial from, say, any other phone.
[53:04.390 --> 53:09.990]  You get James Earl Jones saying, welcome to Bell Atlantic's national and local information.
[53:10.430 --> 53:14.770]  And then the female voice says, what city?
[53:15.290 --> 53:16.350]  Then you say, what city?
[53:16.430 --> 53:19.810]  And if you're just dialing local, you know, you have to say New York or Long Island or whatever.
[53:20.430 --> 53:21.510]  Then, what listing?
[53:21.870 --> 53:24.250]  Then, please hold while I look up your number.
[53:24.470 --> 53:31.290]  Then, please continue to hold while I look up because there's only one operator working there now and what they have to do is have to play back your voice to that operator now.
[53:31.470 --> 53:34.150]  So basically, it takes you about 30 seconds to get a number now.
[53:34.770 --> 53:36.330]  And it used to be instant.
[53:36.590 --> 53:37.210]  And you know what else?
[53:37.210 --> 53:37.990]  It used to be free.
[53:38.010 --> 53:40.630]  And now, it costs up to a dollar.
[53:40.850 --> 53:41.730]  Ah, progress.
[53:42.270 --> 53:42.710]  That's progress.
[53:42.710 --> 53:43.130]  That's progress.
[53:43.390 --> 53:43.490]  Yeah.
[53:44.590 --> 53:45.690]  All right, let's take one more phone call.
[53:45.770 --> 53:46.010]  Good evening.
[53:46.090 --> 53:46.470]  You're on the air.
[53:47.330 --> 53:59.090]  I believe the reason for that is to do with, we're being conditioned for when web TV begins, we're going to, in that moment, in that pause of several seconds, it will be advertising playing.
[53:59.370 --> 54:00.910]  That's going to be ad time.
[54:01.150 --> 54:02.570]  I think we're already there.
[54:02.790 --> 54:05.650]  While you're waiting, they're going to play advertisements.
[54:05.930 --> 54:06.470]  We're there.
[54:07.310 --> 54:09.270]  You've heard advertisements when you call information?
[54:09.910 --> 54:13.230]  I haven't heard advertisements for that, but I've heard advertisements almost everywhere else.
[54:13.350 --> 54:18.670]  Right, everywhere else, but I think that's a big leap when it becomes part of the phone system that you're being supposed to hear.
[54:18.830 --> 54:25.170]  I had a dream when I was a kid, I'm talking about like eight years old, that I heard an advertisement in between the rings while the phone was ringing.
[54:25.330 --> 54:26.770]  Now, is that prophetic or what?
[54:27.210 --> 54:27.330]  You know?
[54:29.190 --> 54:32.630]  And now that I've said it on the air, it's probably going to happen like next week.
[54:32.850 --> 54:34.150]  It's a hacker for life.
[54:34.470 --> 54:34.710]  All right.
[54:34.790 --> 54:35.290]  Yeah, thank you.
[54:35.370 --> 54:36.030]  Hey, thanks for calling.
[54:36.170 --> 54:36.990]  Let's see if we can squeeze in.
[54:39.270 --> 54:48.190]  There are systems in which they claim to subsidize your low long distance costs by playing advertisements for you before your call completes.
[54:48.510 --> 54:49.170]  Between the rings?
[54:49.570 --> 54:50.990]  No, you dial a number.
[54:51.070 --> 54:52.870]  What happens if somebody picks up in the middle of the ad?
[54:53.250 --> 54:55.090]  No, you're misunderstanding me.
[54:55.730 --> 55:00.130]  You dial a number, you listen to an advertisement, and then it completes your call.
[55:00.130 --> 55:02.210]  So it doesn't even start ringing until after the ad is over.
[55:02.250 --> 55:07.310]  Well, based on how many minutes you listen to ads is how many minutes you get for your long distance telephone call.
[55:07.430 --> 55:08.030]  I see.
[55:08.610 --> 55:10.450]  well, you can just leave the phone off the hook, you know.
[55:11.290 --> 55:18.510]  Well, usually what they want you to do is to express your interest in advertisement to gain more valuable marketing data.
[55:18.630 --> 55:24.530]  Yeah, but they can gain very remarkable valuable data by knowing what I'm not interested in as well.
[55:24.650 --> 55:27.950]  So if I express strong discontent with something, they can learn a lot from that.
[55:28.070 --> 55:29.450]  And I'd be happy to teach them.
[55:29.510 --> 55:31.530]  Let's take one more phone call real quick.
[55:31.530 --> 55:32.330]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[55:32.910 --> 55:33.370]  Wow, great.
[55:33.470 --> 55:35.810]  It's serendipitous you had the email demonstration on.
[55:35.950 --> 55:45.650]  In the current issue of Red Herring, April, there's another device for using email, except you may not want to have to even dictate it.
[55:45.710 --> 55:47.590]  You can sync your email and transmit it.
[55:48.110 --> 55:49.810]  I can give you the URL address real quick.
[55:49.950 --> 55:50.790]  Why don't you do that?
[55:51.410 --> 55:52.390]  Okay, yeah.
[55:53.590 --> 55:54.970]  I'll have nightmares if you don't.
[55:55.070 --> 55:58.550]  Sure, www.thinkyourmail.com.
[55:58.710 --> 56:01.010]  And they're working on another device to receive the email.
[56:01.130 --> 56:14.710]  That's not perfected yet, but there is a working prototype that fits over the ear, and the user can compose an email up to 240 characters, and the acronym is TIDE, standing for telepathic internet data exchange.
[56:14.850 --> 56:15.250]  Check it out.
[56:15.390 --> 56:16.950]  Okay, thanks for calling.
[56:16.950 --> 56:20.270]  That's something that we're definitely going to report back on next week.
[56:20.290 --> 56:21.290]  I'll check it out tonight.
[56:21.770 --> 56:28.490]  We had 155 listeners tonight for Real Audio, so greetings to everybody out there, and thanks to everybody else who called in and was listening.
[56:28.670 --> 56:32.770]  We'll be back again next week with updates on the Cheek case, for one thing.
[56:32.870 --> 56:34.490]  We're going to be looking into that in the weeks ahead.
[56:34.550 --> 56:35.630]  That's a very interesting case.
[56:35.770 --> 56:37.530]  Cheek's case with an apostrophe S.
[56:37.530 --> 56:38.230]  Yeah, an apostrophe S.
[56:38.630 --> 56:41.890]  And we'll be following, of course, the latest Kevin updates.
[56:42.010 --> 56:43.570]  There will be things happening regarding that case.
[56:43.570 --> 56:44.790]  That case is not over.
[56:44.970 --> 56:46.230]  There's plenty more to come.
[56:47.330 --> 56:51.150]  Thanks to Isaac Carl for coming in, and we'll be back again next week.
[56:51.530 --> 56:51.750]  Good night.
[56:58.520 --> 57:03.040]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[57:03.960 --> 57:08.580]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
[57:09.160 --> 57:13.860]  It couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
[57:14.100 --> 57:16.760]  Bum, dilly, bum, but the best, expect the worst.
[57:17.420 --> 57:19.260]  I hope that's understood.
[57:19.640 --> 57:20.200]  Bum, dilly, bum!
[57:20.200 --> 57:20.920]  Good night.
[57:59.540 --> 58:00.660]  Good night.
[58:20.520 --> 58:24.300]  Pacifica Radio celebrates 50 years of radio with vision.
[58:25.920 --> 58:31.860]  Che Guevara was a political theorist, revolutionary strategist, military comandante, and hero of the Cuban Revolution.
[58:32.220 --> 58:40.240]  On December 16, 1964, he met with a group of socialist journalists at the Cuban Mission in New York City and gave an informal press conference.
[58:40.520 --> 58:42.100]  Pacifica's Chris Koch was there.
[58:42.100 --> 58:47.040]  Comandante Guevara was dressed in pressed military fatigues, and polished black boots.
[58:47.500 --> 58:57.680]  During the conversation, he was in constant motion, lying on his side, shifting to a squatting position, back to his side, resting his head on his hands, and puffing constantly on a cigar.
[58:58.080 --> 58:58.840]  Constant motion.
[58:59.620 --> 59:02.880]  Guevara was relaxed, joked much, smiled always.
[59:12.100 --> 59:14.680]  This is WBAI in New York.
[59:15.020 --> 59:15.460]  Stay tuned.
[59:16.620 --> 59:22.740]  Lo importante es que la capacidad de construcción y de sacrificio...
[59:22.740 --> 59:27.580]  But in the long run, the important thing is that the capacity for sacrifice...
[59:27.580 --> 59:28.840]  ...construcción...
[59:28.840 --> 59:30.640]  ...and construction...
[59:30.640 --> 59:32.280]  ...se va desarrollando...
[59:33.040 --> 59:34.120]  ...be developed.
[59:34.580 --> 59:37.420]  El revolucionario hace la revolución.
[59:37.420 --> 59:39.680]  The revolutionary makes the revolution.
[59:40.940 --> 59:43.380]  But the revolution makes the revolutionary.
[59:44.160 --> 59:48.240]  Y es una interrelación constante.
[59:48.380 --> 59:53.000]  And there is an interrelationship, a constant interrelationship.
[59:53.140 --> 59:56.080]  Donde el revolucionario va alcanzando grados más altos...
[59:56.080 --> 59:59.440]  ...where the revolutionary achieves a higher level...
[59:59.440 --> 01:00:00.020]  ...de conciencia...
[01:00:00.020 --> 01:00:00.540]  ...of conscience.
[01:00:03.790 --> 01:00:06.570]  Che Guevara from the Pacifica Radio Archives.
[01:00:06.870 --> 01:00:08.110]  I'm Verna Avery Brown.
[01:00:09.170 --> 01:00:14.330]  We invite you to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the founding of Pacifica Radio.
[01:00:14.690 --> 01:00:20.470]  Join many distinguished activists, authors, musicians, WBAI personalities and friends...
[01:00:20.470 --> 01:00:24.930]  ...on Sunday, May 2, 1999 from 4 to 7 p.m.
[01:00:25.090 --> 01:00:28.430]  at the historic Riverside Church in New York City.
[01:00:28.430 --> 01:00:36.530]  For ticket information, please call the WBAI hotline at 212-209-2960.
[01:00:36.530 --> 01:00:41.510]  That's 212-209-2960.