[00:01.290 --> 00:04.650]  Meaning, they embrace defeat.
[00:05.090 --> 00:12.310]  They ought to straighten up or move aside for people who will fight for what is right.
[00:14.470 --> 00:17.470]  Veteran journalist and media critic John Hess.
[00:27.210 --> 00:29.730]  And thank you for listening to WBAI.
[00:29.890 --> 00:31.750]  Thank you for listening to the news tonight.
[00:31.950 --> 00:37.170]  I'm Jose Santiago in New York, and I'm joined by David Sears from our news department.
[00:37.170 --> 00:41.610]  And we need to be off the air in about a minute and a half or two minutes.
[00:41.770 --> 00:48.790]  But we wanted to take just a brief moment to remind you that we are in the middle of our membership drive.
[00:48.790 --> 00:54.410]  And we are asking you to call 212-209-2950.
[00:55.130 --> 00:56.510]  We need your support.
[00:56.990 --> 00:59.610]  We can't do this without you.
[00:59.690 --> 01:00.590]  You've heard it all before.
[01:00.590 --> 01:09.770]  We just want to take just a brief minute to remind you that we have operators standing by all day for the next week, week and a half or so.
[01:10.030 --> 01:18.670]  And we need for you to get on the phone and call 212-209-2950 to support our effort here at WBAI.
[01:18.830 --> 01:22.650]  And that number is 212-209-2950.
[01:23.090 --> 01:25.030]  And I'm apparently way off mic here.
[01:25.150 --> 01:25.570]  There I go.
[01:25.570 --> 01:29.650]  So, 212-209-2950 is the number to call.
[01:29.730 --> 01:33.730]  And when you call that number, somebody will ask you or take your pledge.
[01:33.930 --> 01:37.270]  Of course, the basic membership in WBAI is $50 a year.
[01:37.450 --> 01:45.810]  We have a senior citizen, low income, fixed income, just can't make the $50 amount pledge available at $25.
[01:45.810 --> 01:59.470]  But whatever you can pledge, $25, $50, $100, $200, $500, $10, $5, we are more than willing to accept it because we are listener-sponsored radio.
[01:59.470 --> 02:03.830]  We need the money that comes in from our listeners because it doesn't come from anyplace else.
[02:03.970 --> 02:08.410]  You are the community in community radio, and that's what WBAI is.
[02:08.410 --> 02:17.310]  There will be no Ginsu knives or other paraphernalia offered, at least not during the news hour.
[02:17.430 --> 02:24.770]  We do have a $70 pledge that will get you not only the year's membership in WBAI, but the fabulous WBAI t-shirt.
[02:25.130 --> 02:32.150]  Or similarly, for a $70 pledge, you can get the WBAI coffee mug along with the membership.
[02:32.410 --> 02:38.270]  But whatever you can pledge, it's vitally important that you call and make that pledge to WBAI.
[02:38.270 --> 02:45.630]  At 212-209-2950, we can take Visa, MasterCard, American Express, or electronic funds transfers.
[02:45.950 --> 02:53.410]  If you can figure out how to do that, I'm sure there's somebody in Tally who will be more than willing to talk you through the process of setting that up.
[02:53.510 --> 02:55.250]  And then it's all very painless.
[02:55.550 --> 03:01.850]  We especially like it if people pay with plastic because it gets the money into our coffers a lot faster.
[03:01.970 --> 03:03.870]  It saves us the whole process of billing.
[03:04.410 --> 03:07.970]  And if you order a premium, it'll help get that premium to you much faster.
[03:07.970 --> 03:27.430]  At 212-209-2950, just repeating, we really have tried to refrain, and hopefully we'll be able to do that for the rest of the fundraising drive, from offering massive premiums with books and tapes and that sort of thing, because we just feel that folks who listen to news,
[03:27.530 --> 03:33.870]  our listeners, understand that we need to support this station.
[03:33.870 --> 03:43.370]  We need to, as listeners, step in and take care of business and keep it going without the incentive of a premium here.
[03:43.630 --> 03:47.710]  There are premiums being offered in other programs, and feel free to call then.
[03:47.730 --> 04:01.290]  But if you do call now at this hour, you are saying to the powers that be here that you appreciate what you hear on the news, the effort we make to bring you as much news as we can from a completely different perspective, obviously, than the mainstream,
[04:01.510 --> 04:03.850]  so-called mainstream media, the corporate media.
[04:04.610 --> 04:07.850]  The number to call is 212-209-2950.
[04:08.170 --> 04:11.650]  For a $50 contribution, you get the one-year membership to the station.
[04:12.150 --> 04:20.230]  Again, for a $70 contribution to the station, you get the membership of a year plus a mug or the T-shirt, whatever you prefer.
[04:20.530 --> 04:24.090]  Again, both are suitable for right-handed and left-handed people.
[04:24.630 --> 04:28.750]  212-209-2950 is the number to call.
[04:28.870 --> 04:31.190]  And thank you to all of you who have been calling.
[04:31.390 --> 04:39.050]  We have been very pleased with the response you're once again doing at force and helping us keep going here.
[04:39.130 --> 04:42.010]  And we really, really do appreciate every single call we get.
[04:42.350 --> 04:44.750]  And I think we need to move on.
[04:44.750 --> 04:48.370]  So we are going to wrap it up.
[04:48.590 --> 04:51.690]  212-209-2950 is the number to call.
[04:51.810 --> 04:55.050]  Keep calling even after the music ends and the next program begins.
[04:55.510 --> 04:58.910]  That is some of the news for Tuesday, May 18, 1999.
[04:59.510 --> 05:05.510]  Tonight's news was engineered by Dred Scott Keyes and produced with David Sears, Leslie George, and John Hess.
[05:05.970 --> 05:08.350]  Verna Avery-Brown was in Washington, as usual.
[05:08.570 --> 05:12.730]  And I'm Jose Santiago in New York for the WBAI listener-sponsored news.
[05:22.150 --> 05:29.910]  And you're listening to Radio Station WBAI, where a special three-hour edition of Off the Hook, the Computer Hacker Program, will be coming your way right after this.
[05:32.960 --> 05:34.800]  On Friday from 7 p.m.
[05:34.900 --> 05:36.520]  in the evening till 3 a.m.
[05:36.680 --> 05:41.020]  in the morning, join the Midnight Ravers as we bring you a two-part marathon special.
[05:50.820 --> 05:58.640]  At 7 p.m., we'll celebrate the life of Mumia Abu-Tamal, who's been languishing on Pennsylvania's death row for 18 years.
[05:58.820 --> 06:04.920]  We'll hear Mumia in his own words with commentaries from Edgar Wyden, Pam Africa, Daruba Benoit Hart, and others.
[06:06.620 --> 06:17.160]  At midnight, we'll switch gears to bringing the best from Jamaica's harmony groups, the Meditations, the Trinkle Brothers, the Gay Lads, the Gladiators, the I-3s, the Wailers, and many, many more.
[06:17.320 --> 06:21.560]  So join the Midnight Ravers this Friday for a marathon special special.
[06:28.230 --> 06:33.630]  Only on listener-sponsored, non-commercial WBAI 99.5 FM.
[06:33.790 --> 06:36.970]  The Midnight Ravers, where every show is a special.
[06:41.510 --> 06:43.590]  WBAI listeners, it's that time again.
[06:49.530 --> 06:54.590]  We're holding our next pledge drive May 11th through the 28th, and we need you.
[06:54.770 --> 06:55.670]  Be a volunteer.
[06:55.830 --> 07:00.510]  We need your voice to come in and answer phones every day, seven days a week from 7 a.m.
[07:00.590 --> 07:00.890]  to midnight.
[07:01.130 --> 07:05.210]  We also need your hands to stuff envelopes and mail bills during and after the drive.
[07:05.430 --> 07:11.170]  So support your community radio station, WBAI, by volunteering during the pledge drive.
[07:11.170 --> 07:14.230]  Call 212-209-2828.
[07:14.490 --> 07:17.150]  That's 212-209-2828.
[07:24.140 --> 07:26.540]  And again, you're listening to Radio Station WBAI.
[07:26.740 --> 07:29.520]  Time now for a special edition of Off the Hook.
[08:49.630 --> 08:56.650]  And there it is, the sound that it all comes down to, the dial tone, the starting point, the kickoff for any adventure you might want to have on the telephone.
[08:56.890 --> 09:00.510]  Well, today we're going to have a series of adventures on the telephone.
[09:02.110 --> 09:05.630]  And some of it, I dare say, will involve you calling in to us.
[09:08.150 --> 09:10.910]  This is Emmanuel Goldstein for a special edition of Off the Hook.
[09:12.130 --> 09:13.410]  And we'll be right back.
[10:43.240 --> 10:44.860]  And a very good evening to one and all.
[10:45.120 --> 10:45.900]  The program is Off the Hook.
[10:45.980 --> 10:51.600]  We're usually on from 8 to 9 o'clock, but tonight, of course, is a special marathon edition of the program.
[10:51.600 --> 11:10.000]  And we are going to be here for three hours talking about issues pertaining to technology, the computer hacker world, and consumer affairs, consumer technology scams and rip-offs and things like that, international events, crackdowns on individual liberties,
[11:10.280 --> 11:12.520]  and gosh, should I leave anything out?
[11:12.640 --> 11:13.380]  Isaac, good evening.
[11:13.640 --> 11:14.800]  Did you leave anything out?
[11:15.700 --> 11:19.240]  We cover the whole gamut of interesting topics here.
[11:19.400 --> 11:20.180]  That's true, that's true.
[11:20.180 --> 11:22.780]  And special guest today, Laszlo from Commercial Radio.
[11:23.240 --> 11:23.560]  Greetings.
[11:23.880 --> 11:26.100]  Actually, you're a lot more than from Commercial Radio.
[11:26.340 --> 11:27.760]  You're involved in all kinds of things.
[11:27.960 --> 11:29.380]  Yeah, it's nice to see the other side.
[11:29.700 --> 11:30.020]  Yeah.
[11:30.160 --> 11:31.220]  Well, you're not the other side, though.
[11:31.340 --> 11:32.180]  You're on our side.
[11:32.240 --> 11:32.660]  You really are.
[11:32.740 --> 11:36.620]  But you can hear Laszlo's voice on all kinds of other radio stations.
[11:36.820 --> 11:37.840]  All kinds of other radio stations.
[11:37.880 --> 11:39.700]  It's kind of scary how many radio stations you show up on.
[11:40.240 --> 11:41.020]  165 right now.
[11:41.240 --> 11:42.300]  Doesn't that scare you, Isaac?
[11:42.440 --> 11:42.760]  165.
[11:42.760 --> 11:43.600]  That's a little frightening.
[11:43.820 --> 11:46.640]  We're on one radio station right here, and he's on 165.
[11:47.300 --> 11:49.080]  Yeah, but I'm only on for one minute a day.
[11:49.080 --> 11:51.400]  But you're probably on, as we speak, someplace.
[11:52.080 --> 11:52.400]  Probably.
[11:52.740 --> 11:54.060]  They just keep bouncing your...
[11:54.060 --> 11:55.520]  Do you ever drive through a city and you hear yourself?
[11:57.480 --> 11:58.720]  Yes, it actually has happened.
[11:58.840 --> 11:59.680]  And you don't expect to hear yourself?
[11:59.680 --> 12:00.740]  No, and it's pretty frightening.
[12:00.920 --> 12:01.200]  It is.
[12:01.320 --> 12:01.700]  It is.
[12:01.860 --> 12:04.200]  Well, I imagine if you do commercials, you probably hear yourself, too, all the time.
[12:04.240 --> 12:07.860]  But I know some people do voiceovers, and they turn the station when they hear it.
[12:08.820 --> 12:09.140]  Right.
[12:09.600 --> 12:11.780]  Because it's a reminder that you are a hack.
[12:12.780 --> 12:13.100]  Absolutely.
[12:13.640 --> 12:22.820]  Well, I can't think of a better person to have with us tonight, as we talk about the value of non-commercial radio, than someone who has been in the belly of the beast, as it were, seen what commercial radio is all about.
[12:22.840 --> 12:23.840]  We're going to be getting to that.
[12:24.660 --> 12:42.160]  But what we need to get to first, and it's because of the rotation of the earth that we have to do this, there's really no other reason, it's a lot later in Yugoslavia than it is here now, which means that we have guests who want to be on the radio show tonight from Yugoslavia as a very special part of this program.
[12:43.000 --> 12:46.720]  However, it's, was it five, six hours ahead of us right now?
[12:47.060 --> 12:49.240]  And, you know, it's about one in the morning or something like that.
[12:49.240 --> 12:57.940]  So, we want to call them and, and do that part of the program first, so we can, we can, I guess, get on with the rest of it as well.
[12:58.340 --> 13:01.520]  Let's first do some background, what's going on over there.
[13:01.640 --> 13:05.080]  As you are aware, Yugoslavia is the latest of the countries of the world that we're bombing.
[13:08.860 --> 13:10.180]  From what I hear, it's going quite well.
[13:10.320 --> 13:18.460]  We're bombing them, the bombs are landing, and then all kinds of things are blowing up, including people and, and targets of all sorts.
[13:19.500 --> 13:20.440]  It's just unbelievable.
[13:20.840 --> 13:24.020]  I think a lot of people don't realize what it's like to be on the other end.
[13:24.080 --> 13:27.820]  And I know a lot of people in this country don't realize that because they've never really been on the other end.
[13:27.900 --> 13:36.100]  Yes, we've, we've traveled to away games in other countries and fought in their wars and, and, and put our side against various other sides over there.
[13:36.220 --> 13:38.580]  We've never had a home team thing going on here.
[13:38.580 --> 13:46.500]  We've never had Chicago being, being blitzkrieged or New York having to, having to observe blackout time, things like that.
[13:46.620 --> 13:47.440]  It's never happened to us.
[13:47.520 --> 13:53.860]  I mean, yeah, you've had, you've had Pearl Harbor get bombed by the, by the Japanese, but that's it for the century, isn't it?
[13:54.320 --> 13:55.120]  That's pretty much it.
[13:55.200 --> 13:57.200]  Unless you want to count Oklahoma City or something like that.
[13:57.280 --> 13:57.760]  That's, you know.
[13:57.920 --> 13:58.740]  Which I'm from there.
[13:58.900 --> 13:59.820]  You're from Oklahoma City.
[13:59.860 --> 14:00.340]  You didn't know that?
[14:00.440 --> 14:00.560]  No.
[14:00.560 --> 14:12.500]  I should have brought, my father last night came to visit in, in New York and he brought like all the newspapers with, with the pictures of the insanity, just like trees, just with tons of metal shrapnel in them.
[14:12.600 --> 14:14.360]  I was, I was actually referring to the, the bombing.
[14:14.480 --> 14:15.260]  I know, but that's...
[14:15.260 --> 14:15.820]  You're referring to the tornado.
[14:15.820 --> 14:18.540]  I know, but God is sending all sorts of stuff their way.
[14:18.660 --> 14:19.720]  God's sending mixed signals.
[14:19.980 --> 14:20.000]  Right.
[14:20.960 --> 14:29.000]  I don't know what, what exactly it means, but, um, this interesting article, this showed up on, uh, Consortium News, consortiumnews.com.
[14:29.520 --> 14:32.200]  If you can't spell that, you probably shouldn't be reading the net anyway.
[14:32.620 --> 14:34.860]  That's, that's my way of weeding out people who shouldn't have net access.
[14:34.860 --> 14:36.040]  Because you can't spell it, you can't go there.
[14:36.720 --> 14:44.180]  Um, okay, we're going to turn the phone off because people are going to call me during the show and I really can't take any phone calls.
[14:44.180 --> 14:45.640]  Well, they don't know you're doing a show right now.
[14:45.780 --> 14:47.220]  Yeah, that's why they call.
[14:47.520 --> 14:49.000]  Of course they know I'm doing a show right now.
[14:49.060 --> 14:52.140]  And they're calling because, hey, I can hear the phone ring on the air.
[14:52.380 --> 14:54.040]  So it's the latest fact.
[14:54.120 --> 14:55.440]  You're usually on an hour from now.
[14:55.660 --> 14:56.200]  That's true.
[14:56.400 --> 15:05.820]  But we also advertised on the website that, uh, oh, and by the way, I should point out, this is the first time ever that we've done a radio show for fundraising purposes that's there on the, uh, on the internet.
[15:05.960 --> 15:13.640]  In fact, Porkchop, who, uh, is, is handling our, our web, um, uh, our, our web access, real audio, sound over the net thing.
[15:13.980 --> 15:15.620]  Uh, it's his birthday day, by the way, too.
[15:15.740 --> 15:16.180]  It's his birthday.
[15:16.320 --> 15:16.480]  Yes.
[15:16.540 --> 15:16.980]  Can you believe that?
[15:17.020 --> 15:23.100]  He could be out right now, the toast of the town, you know, because he is, he is up there in society's circles.
[15:23.280 --> 15:24.060]  Happy birthday, Porkchop.
[15:24.220 --> 15:27.940]  He's at home instead slaving away, making sure that we're going out to however many people.
[15:28.020 --> 15:33.220]  And that's, that's what I like to ask right now is how many people, uh, are, are listening at this early hour, and we're hoping to set a record.
[15:33.320 --> 15:36.680]  Usually it's around 125 or so that are listening in.
[15:36.900 --> 15:40.460]  And those are 125 listeners from any place in the world that we don't usually have.
[15:40.780 --> 15:49.860]  Right now we're the only show on WBAI that's doing that, and we understand that pretty soon, hopefully after this marathon, we'll be able to, uh, to go 24 hours.
[15:50.060 --> 15:53.660]  Uh, a lot of that depends on just how seriously it's taken.
[15:54.360 --> 16:02.740]  So this is, uh, this is a good opportunity to prove the worth of the online listeners, uh, uh, when we give out the phone number to, uh, call in and pledge to the radio station.
[16:02.740 --> 16:10.280]  What you're doing is you're investing in this program, you're investing in the station, investing in freedom of speech, making sure that this place will still be here.
[16:10.540 --> 16:18.240]  Because as you notice, uh, Laszlo, you can attest to this, this radio station doesn't have what most of the stations that your voice appears on has, commercials.
[16:18.960 --> 16:19.320]  Right.
[16:19.660 --> 16:20.360]  Not a single one.
[16:20.460 --> 16:21.660]  So we're not going to commercial breaks?
[16:21.880 --> 16:22.760]  We're not going to commercial break.
[16:22.840 --> 16:23.860]  You're, you're stuck in here.
[16:23.980 --> 16:25.600]  We should have broken once already, actually.
[16:25.860 --> 16:26.260]  Yeah, really.
[16:26.260 --> 16:31.400]  If this was a commercial, if this was a commercial program, yes, we would have broken probably twice by now.
[16:31.580 --> 16:33.880]  You know, we'll be right back after this.
[16:36.850 --> 16:37.670]  How did that feel?
[16:37.770 --> 16:38.790]  Sort of a sinking feeling.
[16:39.110 --> 16:40.510]  That's kind of, I didn't like that at all.
[16:40.550 --> 16:40.890]  You didn't like that?
[16:40.950 --> 16:42.430]  Are you underwritten or anything?
[16:42.630 --> 16:43.450]  No, no underwriting.
[16:43.650 --> 16:45.990]  Oh yeah, of course, we are underwritten by the listeners.
[16:46.250 --> 16:47.510]  The listeners are our sponsors.
[16:48.470 --> 16:54.870]  So, um, I'm going to, on the off chance that there are some people listening that can only listen for a few minutes.
[16:54.870 --> 17:02.290]  And actually, that's probably true because the average listenership is what, in, in radio terms, like five to seven minutes?
[17:02.750 --> 17:07.670]  Well, yeah, the, um, that's the, the ratings are determined in those short periods.
[17:07.870 --> 17:08.750]  They found the beeper number, too.
[17:08.970 --> 17:09.510]  I like that.
[17:10.610 --> 17:11.490]  Isn't that something?
[17:11.910 --> 17:12.150]  Okay.
[17:12.850 --> 17:13.310]  Guess what?
[17:13.430 --> 17:14.130]  Vibrate mode.
[17:14.430 --> 17:14.670]  Ha ha.
[17:15.110 --> 17:15.930]  That's, that's that.
[17:16.350 --> 17:17.250]  I'm sorry, go ahead.
[17:17.790 --> 17:23.670]  No, it's, um, it's, it's based on, on people that, yeah, basically listen for five or 10 minutes at a time.
[17:24.050 --> 17:28.570]  Um, and it's also depends on the, on the part of the country that you're in.
[17:28.670 --> 17:32.330]  I mean, obviously, as you know, from your drive in today, people spend a lot of time in their car.
[17:32.770 --> 17:42.630]  So between, here in LA, Chicago, um, people listen to the radio a lot longer, but in other cities where, you know, like a 10 minute commute is considered horrendous.
[17:42.630 --> 17:46.430]  It's, uh, the, um, I had a four hour commute this afternoon.
[17:46.610 --> 17:48.710]  I don't want to talk about someone complaining about 10 minutes.
[17:48.910 --> 17:50.090]  That's, uh, that's nuts.
[17:50.630 --> 17:57.930]  But, um, it's, what's really odd about radio is, you know, television ratings have, have always been so, like, high tech and radio.
[17:58.150 --> 18:01.330]  People are still writing in diaries, you know, what channels that they listen to.
[18:01.970 --> 18:04.890]  And, I mean, people now have, like, 15 presets on their radio.
[18:05.110 --> 18:09.530]  You know, who's going to write down, I listen to WBAI for 10 seconds and then I listen to, yeah.
[18:10.190 --> 18:10.790]  But the, the.
[18:10.890 --> 18:11.850]  The seek counts, you know.
[18:12.630 --> 18:13.030]  I don't know.
[18:13.190 --> 18:13.370]  It can.
[18:13.550 --> 18:14.850]  But the point is, people are listening.
[18:14.990 --> 18:15.770]  People have tuned in.
[18:15.890 --> 18:18.770]  And maybe we're captivating you right now with this discussion.
[18:18.810 --> 18:20.150]  Maybe we've captivated you in the past.
[18:20.210 --> 18:24.270]  And maybe you don't have a whole lot of time to, to tune in for the whole three hours, if that is so.
[18:24.830 --> 18:26.110]  And you do want to contribute.
[18:26.250 --> 18:27.890]  You do want to make sure this place is around.
[18:27.990 --> 18:32.830]  You want to make sure this radio station, um, knows you're out there and knows that you have a voice.
[18:33.190 --> 18:36.750]  Please give a call to the pledge line at 212-209-2950.
[18:37.830 --> 18:43.530]  And, um, we have, we have a couple of, uh, incentives that, uh, we're offering here.
[18:43.690 --> 18:46.270]  We're going to, we're going to announce, uh, one or two others later on tonight.
[18:46.810 --> 18:48.410]  Uh, what we have is kind of interesting.
[18:48.630 --> 18:51.630]  This is for you people that have, uh, computer access already.
[18:51.630 --> 18:57.190]  That you have a, a computer, a Mac or, you know, one of those other computers and you have a CD-ROM drive in there.
[18:57.390 --> 19:02.250]  We have something that, uh, has never been offered before on this radio station or on any radio station for that matter.
[19:02.290 --> 19:10.790]  And that's a full four volume set of every radio show we've done since 1988, actually from 1988 to 1997.
[19:11.230 --> 19:11.890]  That's a lot of radio.
[19:12.090 --> 19:12.590]  That's a lot.
[19:12.930 --> 19:17.090]  Believe me, that's more radio than I think most people would want to hear in a, in a long time.
[19:17.090 --> 19:21.290]  Not that we do a particularly bad job, but, uh, well, let's just, let's just stop that.
[19:21.350 --> 19:22.630]  We'll, we'll, we'll not continue that.
[19:22.730 --> 19:23.670]  We'll not continue that thread.
[19:23.810 --> 19:39.530]  But, uh, if you, if you start in 1988 and you go to 1997, you will have witnessed so much history, so many voices in the passing of time and seen where this whole hacker world, where the whole freedom of information world, where the whole computer society is heading.
[19:40.250 --> 19:41.110]  You'll be amazed.
[19:41.750 --> 19:43.250]  Now, what do you need to do this?
[19:43.330 --> 19:45.450]  You need a computer with a CD-ROM drive.
[19:45.550 --> 19:51.330]  You need, um, a copy of Real Audio, which you can get free off the net at www.real.com.
[19:51.930 --> 19:53.170]  And that's really it.
[19:53.430 --> 19:55.710]  You, you plug that in and, uh, open up your browser.
[19:55.930 --> 19:58.830]  Yeah, you need a browser too, but, you know, you can just play it directly from Real Audio as well.
[19:58.950 --> 19:59.450]  Yeah, you can just open the files.
[19:59.510 --> 20:00.190]  You can just open the files.
[20:00.550 --> 20:01.890]  It's, it's really pretty simple.
[20:01.950 --> 20:04.710]  If you have any problems, of course, you can contact us and we'll be happy to help you.
[20:04.730 --> 20:08.490]  No one has ever had a problem getting these files to play unless they didn't have a computer.
[20:08.490 --> 20:09.250]  If you recall...
[20:09.250 --> 20:10.830]  I thought it was a CD or something like that.
[20:10.850 --> 20:15.070]  Right, well, Rebel did report to me an issue he was having with the, uh, the CDs.
[20:15.290 --> 20:18.370]  I can report 10,000 issues I have with Rebel, but, uh...
[20:18.370 --> 20:20.050]  Is he the guy that didn't get you Star Wars tickets?
[20:20.650 --> 20:21.010]  No.
[20:21.310 --> 20:21.570]  Okay.
[20:21.630 --> 20:22.370]  No, that wasn't the guy.
[20:22.710 --> 20:23.450]  That was somebody else.
[20:23.850 --> 20:24.970]  Are they listening right now?
[20:25.230 --> 20:26.970]  Rebel has, has now risen up in the ranks.
[20:27.410 --> 20:29.750]  Um, I have no idea, but, uh, here's the thing.
[20:29.970 --> 20:31.870]  Uh, well, actually, I'd like to know, what was Rebel's problem?
[20:31.950 --> 20:32.650]  What was Rebel's problem?
[20:32.750 --> 20:42.910]  He, uh, couldn't actually access the, or rather, when he would click on the links in our wonderful HTML indexing, uh, it wouldn't open the RealAudio player.
[20:43.090 --> 20:50.990]  So I had to instruct him on how to add RealAudio as an application to his, uh, you know, silly Netscape, you know, uh, open with it.
[20:51.190 --> 20:55.850]  Another much easier way around that is simply to open RealAudio and then open the files from the RealAudio menu.
[20:56.050 --> 20:58.710]  Well, if you install RealAudio, it will update those files on its own.
[20:58.790 --> 20:58.930]  Yeah.
[20:59.010 --> 21:00.850]  You just, like, grabbed a copy from a friend of his.
[21:00.850 --> 21:04.770]  No, you have to, you have to go to the website, download it, and it prompts you to install it.
[21:04.990 --> 21:06.430]  And it, it, it, it does work.
[21:06.550 --> 21:07.190]  It does it all.
[21:07.270 --> 21:08.210]  On all platforms.
[21:08.430 --> 21:10.270]  Uh, so, so unless you're Rebel, you shouldn't have a problem.
[21:10.310 --> 21:12.570]  Unless you're running VaxVMS or something, then you might have some problems.
[21:12.630 --> 21:16.830]  But if you're running a typical consumer-oriented system, you should have no difficulty.
[21:17.230 --> 21:18.710]  Anyway, let's get to the point.
[21:18.910 --> 21:21.550]  The point is, we're offering these four CD-ROMs.
[21:21.650 --> 21:22.210]  They're really cool.
[21:22.210 --> 21:30.330]  Yeah, and, uh, you, you can get this for an amazingly low price, which I think is an amazingly low price, um, of $150 pledge.
[21:30.430 --> 21:34.710]  $150, you get every single CD-ROM that we have ever put out.
[21:35.210 --> 21:39.550]  Well, which is only four, but that's every radio show we've done from 1988 to 1997.
[21:40.430 --> 21:44.410]  And there, there are quite a bit of, um, of, of things we have covered.
[21:44.490 --> 21:46.830]  In fact, I think I, I think I remembered.
[21:47.510 --> 21:49.510]  Who spent all the time archiving this, Tom?
[21:50.590 --> 21:50.990]  Guess.
[21:52.310 --> 21:53.310]  And I'm going to hand these out.
[21:53.330 --> 21:53.770]  It's a big list.
[21:53.930 --> 21:58.950]  We have a whole big list of everything we ever talked about on all these shows.
[21:59.110 --> 22:00.990]  Oh, yes, it does come with the, uh, summaries.
[22:01.150 --> 22:03.450]  Now, I should, yeah, I should point out, you can get this on the web.
[22:03.530 --> 22:05.110]  You can download each and every one of these shows.
[22:05.550 --> 22:08.390]  But each one is about, uh, eight or nine megs in length.
[22:08.430 --> 22:11.390]  Some of them are quite, quite long, too, if we did, uh, marathon shows in the past.
[22:12.170 --> 22:12.490]  And...
[22:12.490 --> 22:13.650]  We don't know if we had that two-hour one.
[22:13.850 --> 22:15.990]  Yeah, we once had, I think, a six-hour show.
[22:16.370 --> 22:17.230]  They're all on here.
[22:17.410 --> 22:20.490]  And you'll hear people calling in that you, you may still recognize.
[22:21.370 --> 22:21.910]  Tonya Harding.
[22:21.910 --> 22:30.130]  You'll hear the first mentions of Kevin Mitnick, the Galactic Hacker Party, Operation Sun Devil, interviews with such people as Cheshire Catalyst, Alan Rubin, John Markoff.
[22:30.330 --> 22:31.070]  Yes, that's right.
[22:31.590 --> 22:33.350]  John Markoff was actually in our studios.
[22:34.050 --> 22:47.950]  Richard Matthews, Rop from Amsterdam, Steve Jackson, John Perry Barlow, Mark Green, Craig Niedorf, Julian Dibbel, Peter Barnes, Sheldon Zenner, Phiber Optik, Paul Edwards, Larry Berman, Scott Chasen, Chris Goggins, Joel Shapiro, Katie Hefner, Mr. French,
[22:48.570 --> 22:52.690]  Wilt Hildebrand, Charles Rowles, Jack Brooks, Tom Dunleavy, Joy Bubbles.
[22:52.830 --> 22:53.650]  I don't know if you know who that is.
[22:53.710 --> 22:57.890]  That's High Rise Joe Engressia, the blind phone phreak from Minneapolis.
[22:58.270 --> 22:58.470]  Oh, oh, oh, oh, yes.
[22:58.670 --> 22:59.550]  And Winn Schwartau.
[22:59.890 --> 23:03.110]  And that's only on one of the volumes.
[23:03.510 --> 23:05.130]  That's only on one of the volumes, all those names.
[23:05.350 --> 23:08.030]  So please give us a call, 212-209-2950.
[23:08.030 --> 23:14.630]  If that sounds like something, you'd like it to kind of remember all the things we've done here on this radio station.
[23:15.310 --> 23:18.690]  And we will have more, as we mentioned, we will have more things that we're giving away.
[23:18.810 --> 23:24.150]  But again, that number, 212-209-2950, please show your support, especially, especially if you're listening on the net.
[23:24.270 --> 23:25.470]  Let us know where you're calling from.
[23:26.290 --> 23:30.790]  I really look forward to the first person calling in from overseas.
[23:31.330 --> 23:33.010]  And you can use Visa and MasterCard.
[23:33.190 --> 23:34.770]  I'm not sure if you can use American Express.
[23:34.970 --> 23:35.930]  You might be able to do that, too.
[23:36.410 --> 23:37.170]  I think you can.
[23:37.330 --> 23:39.970]  So if you're calling from overseas, that's not a problem.
[23:40.110 --> 23:41.050]  You don't have to worry about that.
[23:41.170 --> 23:44.290]  Just use a credit card, and it'll work out just fine.
[23:44.830 --> 23:47.030]  Again, if you are overseas, country code is one.
[23:47.330 --> 23:48.250]  People here don't believe me.
[23:48.330 --> 23:49.630]  People don't believe we have overseas listeners.
[23:49.750 --> 23:51.110]  I'm getting all these bizarre looks in the other room.
[23:51.110 --> 23:53.330]  No, we do have overseas listeners.
[23:53.450 --> 23:54.810]  We have that room over there.
[23:54.810 --> 23:57.870]  We have listeners in Singapore.
[23:58.150 --> 23:59.070]  We have listeners in Europe.
[23:59.290 --> 24:00.210]  We have listeners in Australia.
[24:01.030 --> 24:05.650]  So give us a call, country code 1, 212-209-2950.
[24:05.670 --> 24:07.070]  We'll get more into that in just a little bit.
[24:07.750 --> 24:11.110]  Here's that story from Consortium News.
[24:12.590 --> 24:18.690]  At center stage and behind the scenes, NATO's war for Kosovo is pressing the edges of modern information warfare.
[24:18.870 --> 24:19.690]  A phrase I hate.
[24:19.930 --> 24:26.990]  Through the early phases of the conflict, NATO concentrated its attacks on command and control centers, power stations, and even propaganda outlets.
[24:27.230 --> 24:35.090]  Those attacks included sophisticated electronic assaults on computers directing Serb air defenses and so-called soft bombs to short out electrical lines.
[24:35.090 --> 24:47.010]  But there are new indications that President Clinton might be opting for a far more expansive high-tech info war assault to punish the Yugoslavian government, its leaders, and the nation's economy for the atrocities in Kosovo.
[24:47.430 --> 24:50.270]  In such an electronic offensive against Serbia, U.S.
[24:50.330 --> 24:56.570]  intelligence has a secret capability to go much further than sporadic battlefield computer hacking and causing blackouts.
[24:56.570 --> 24:57.430]  U.S.
[24:57.570 --> 25:09.270]  info warriors have the capacity to plant viruses in civilian computer systems, alter bank records, and generally wreak havoc on Yugoslavia's infrastructure from disrupting electrical utilities to shutting down the phone system.
[25:09.670 --> 25:10.470]  U.S.
[25:10.770 --> 25:16.690]  government hackers could target government bank accounts used for purchasing military supplies or the personal accounts of Yugoslav leaders.
[25:16.690 --> 25:23.890]  Funds could be deleted electronically to frustrate the prosecution of the war or to punish selected Yugoslav leaders for the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo.
[25:24.490 --> 25:27.310]  Intelligent sources say the U.S.
[25:27.670 --> 25:33.710]  forces in the Balkans were ill-prepared for this broader info war when the NATO bombing started on March 24th.
[25:33.870 --> 25:39.090]  One reason was the difficulty of gaining a NATO consensus for exotic tactics.
[25:39.570 --> 25:42.450]  So initially, the info war focused only on the battlefield.
[25:42.450 --> 25:44.570]  Time magazine caught a glimpse of the U.S.
[25:44.630 --> 25:49.450]  capability in its reporting on the Pentagon's successes in taking down the Serbian air defenses.
[25:49.650 --> 25:56.930]  The Pentagon cited attacks, jamming, and corrupting data which the Allies have fed into Yugoslav computers through microwave transmissions.
[25:58.010 --> 26:00.230]  I mean, this is interesting stuff here.
[26:00.290 --> 26:01.190]  It's definitely fun stuff.
[26:01.310 --> 26:03.750]  I don't know how much of it is actually true.
[26:03.910 --> 26:05.530]  Remember, we are dealing with mass media here.
[26:05.650 --> 26:09.370]  Well, those soft bombs that we're talking about, they're actually interesting little shells.
[26:09.470 --> 26:09.570]  Soft bombs.
[26:09.670 --> 26:10.330]  Don't you just love that?
[26:10.410 --> 26:11.410]  Soft, gentle bombs.
[26:11.410 --> 26:13.170]  Sounds like a cuddly little bear.
[26:13.470 --> 26:18.570]  Well, it doesn't actually explode so much as it has these four panels that pop off.
[26:19.010 --> 26:22.530]  And they send out these bolas with graphite strings.
[26:22.690 --> 26:26.970]  And the idea is that they open up over top of high-tension power lines.
[26:27.270 --> 26:32.370]  And as the graphite threads roll over the high-tension power lines, it shorts them all out.
[26:32.490 --> 26:36.450]  And it blows out the transformers and the substations and everything.
[26:36.450 --> 26:37.570]  And they're actually pretty effective.
[26:39.910 --> 26:41.810]  That's a true one that I know of.
[26:42.070 --> 26:48.710]  Now, also, there's been talk recently of the United States leading a campaign to cut Yugoslavia off from the Internet.
[26:48.890 --> 26:48.990]  Yes.
[26:48.990 --> 26:50.010]  What do you think about that?
[26:50.010 --> 27:04.950]  They contacted, unknown persons contacted Loral and said, well, why don't you, you know, just kind of make sure that satellite link, the channel that you give the Yugoslavian ISPs, kind of goes down, you know, just inexplicably.
[27:05.170 --> 27:08.550]  And Loral's kind of sitting there saying, um, is this legal?
[27:09.410 --> 27:17.910]  So, yeah, there's been some interest in that, although the denials following its discovery have been certainly forthcoming.
[27:17.910 --> 27:20.170]  Do you notice a trend here, that the U.S.
[27:20.470 --> 27:22.030]  government says one thing, does another.
[27:22.730 --> 27:23.630]  Well, that's new.
[27:23.770 --> 27:28.170]  Puts hackers in prison for many, many years, and then goes out and says, hey, it's okay.
[27:28.170 --> 27:28.970]  Here's a hundred bucks.
[27:29.270 --> 27:30.290]  Go to war, son.
[27:30.390 --> 27:38.750]  Please, use these abilities that we've told you are so illegal, and times them by a thousand, and do this for your country.
[27:38.750 --> 27:42.150]  It's okay to do something illegal if you're doing it for Uncle Sam.
[27:42.350 --> 27:42.550]  Yeah.
[27:42.910 --> 27:44.010]  Yeah, like gamble, for instance.
[27:44.230 --> 27:44.410]  Right.
[27:44.570 --> 27:45.650]  You know, that's perfectly all right.
[27:46.450 --> 27:48.690]  So, yeah, they have no trouble with that.
[27:48.930 --> 27:49.290]  Censorship.
[27:49.490 --> 27:52.070]  Censorship is bad, unless you're censoring the enemy.
[27:52.430 --> 27:56.850]  You know, we blow up their TV stations, blow up their radio stations, because they're passing around propaganda.
[27:56.970 --> 27:58.010]  What do you think we're passing around?
[27:58.030 --> 27:59.790]  We pass around propaganda all the time.
[28:00.570 --> 28:03.090]  And, uh, you know, nobody stands in our way.
[28:03.230 --> 28:05.270]  How do you just turn the internet off for a country?
[28:06.290 --> 28:07.690]  Some big red switch.
[28:07.870 --> 28:10.550]  Is it like a hose that you crimp, like a garden hose?
[28:11.030 --> 28:12.190]  No more data for you.
[28:12.390 --> 28:13.990]  Sorry, you can't, uh, yeah.
[28:13.990 --> 28:15.990]  Uh, good question.
[28:16.510 --> 28:27.530]  The, the, the network is so pervasive that you're not going to be able to shut the entire thing down, unless you, like, go along the entire border with a really big set of scissors and cut every single piece of copper going in and out.
[28:28.010 --> 28:39.850]  Um, the, the, the idea with the satellite is that you just knock out the satellite channel and you're now no longer having the high-speed access bouncing off, uh, the Clark belt and into the rest of the network.
[28:39.850 --> 28:46.210]  So they'll be restricted to copper, at which point, like they said, they're in the switches and they can shut down the ground-based telecommunication.
[28:46.210 --> 28:48.890]  So you can just go, boink, and it goes out.
[28:49.030 --> 28:49.330]  Mm-hmm.
[28:49.330 --> 29:00.370]  Which is actually unfortunate because a lot of, uh, the people in Yugoslavia, uh, so far as the civilians are, they're really, one of the only means of communication with family outside of the nation is email.
[29:00.370 --> 29:07.310]  And, uh, email is becoming a very, uh, uh, serious means of communications in this.
[29:07.490 --> 29:09.190]  And the particular conflict has been...
[29:09.190 --> 29:10.030]  There is another way.
[29:10.130 --> 29:11.530]  There is another way to communicate with people.
[29:12.330 --> 29:14.890]  And that, of course, is the telephone.
[29:15.010 --> 29:15.290]  The telephone.
[29:15.410 --> 29:21.950]  And that's what we're going to try to do right now is communicate with somebody over there in Yugoslavia, war-torn Yugoslavia, where the bombs are dropping even as we speak.
[29:22.650 --> 29:26.470]  And, um, I, I suspect we might have some difficulty getting through.
[29:26.470 --> 29:31.470]  Now, I believe our carrier, uh, our, our default carrier is AT&T.
[29:31.650 --> 29:35.950]  And I have a suspicion about something, which I'm hoping is wrong, but I'm having a suspicion about it.
[29:35.950 --> 29:37.290]  So let's, let's give this a try.
[29:37.990 --> 29:38.510]  Uh, 011.
[29:39.750 --> 29:41.790]  And, of course, the country code for Yugoslavia.
[29:42.070 --> 29:43.750]  Does anybody know what the country code for Yugoslavia is?
[29:44.050 --> 29:44.690]  Don't ask here.
[29:44.730 --> 29:44.950]  10!
[29:45.310 --> 29:46.590]  Nope, it's 381.
[29:46.770 --> 29:46.990]  Damn.
[29:47.190 --> 29:47.590]  381.
[29:47.790 --> 29:47.930]  Yeah.
[29:48.170 --> 29:51.890]  And, uh, okay, I'm going to, uh, blot out the rest of the number here.
[29:53.230 --> 29:55.650]  And, let's see, we'll try doing that.
[29:55.650 --> 30:00.270]  You know, you can make a nice segue here about how expensive overseas calls are and how people should call in.
[30:00.770 --> 30:01.450]  That's true.
[30:01.910 --> 30:02.650]  But this is, uh...
[30:02.650 --> 30:03.230]  One donation.
[30:03.830 --> 30:04.470]  Here we go.
[30:05.130 --> 30:08.910]  Okay, now I want my special access code, which I'm definitely going to block out.
[30:09.130 --> 30:09.610]  Here we go.
[30:10.030 --> 30:10.170]  Now.
[30:20.710 --> 30:22.150]  This is KDD.
[30:23.010 --> 30:26.350]  Telephone numbers in Osaka now require nine digits.
[30:26.410 --> 30:26.870]  Osaka?
[30:27.350 --> 30:29.650]  Please dial again the country code 81.
[30:30.230 --> 30:31.070]  That's Japan.
[30:32.690 --> 30:36.330]  I dialed 381, not 81, you stupid computer.
[30:37.390 --> 30:38.390]  How do you like that?
[30:38.890 --> 30:42.030]  This is how easy it is to mess things up with technology, isn't it?
[30:42.130 --> 30:51.850]  Yeah, I was driving in before, by the way, and I was parked, literally parked, under a sign that said, no traffic, normal traffic conditions ahead, no delays ahead, and everybody was stopped.
[30:52.030 --> 30:53.670]  Well, that would be normal traffic conditions.
[30:53.970 --> 30:54.150]  Whose fault was it?
[30:54.230 --> 30:54.870]  Was it the people?
[30:55.010 --> 30:58.470]  Was it the people who were disobeying the sign, or was it the sign?
[30:58.810 --> 31:06.410]  Well, I was walking over here from the subway, there was a guy cleaning the sidewalk, and he had these four yellow signs that say, caution, wet floor, and it's raining.
[31:07.110 --> 31:12.030]  And I just laughed at him, and he didn't know why, and I pointed at the sign, and he still gave me this, like, bizarre look.
[31:13.690 --> 31:15.270]  All right, we're going to try this again.
[31:15.710 --> 31:16.070]  381.
[31:17.130 --> 31:18.210]  Maybe, did you hear that 3?
[31:18.370 --> 31:19.930]  That 3 doesn't sound quite right.
[31:20.890 --> 31:21.770]  It doesn't sound like a 3.
[31:21.830 --> 31:22.750]  Well, what's 3-3 now?
[31:22.890 --> 31:23.570]  What's 3-3-3?
[31:23.870 --> 31:25.270]  I don't know what the hell...
[31:25.270 --> 31:25.730]  That's...
[31:25.730 --> 31:26.710]  You have reached Mars.
[31:27.270 --> 31:27.570]  Okay.
[31:28.530 --> 31:30.910]  We have to fix this phone on the air.
[31:33.150 --> 31:34.410]  Okay, that was definitely a 3.
[31:34.490 --> 31:34.610]  That was a good 3.
[31:35.490 --> 31:36.710]  All right, so it was our fault.
[31:37.870 --> 31:39.850]  What is it, like, a wounded 3 or something?
[31:39.930 --> 31:40.510]  Let's try this other...
[31:40.510 --> 31:40.930]  I don't know.
[31:40.990 --> 31:41.650]  There's another 3 here.
[31:41.870 --> 31:42.690]  It was shot in the news.
[31:42.690 --> 31:44.990]  We got both 3s in there.
[31:45.310 --> 31:46.790]  All right, and now...
[31:47.710 --> 31:48.630]  I'm trying the rest.
[31:49.150 --> 31:50.010]  Should get a little...
[31:50.010 --> 31:51.870]  Okay, they want our special code now.
[31:52.810 --> 31:53.410]  Here we go.
[31:59.910 --> 32:01.650]  The number has changed.
[32:02.030 --> 32:04.030]  Please call directory assistant.
[32:06.130 --> 32:06.490]  Uh...
[32:07.490 --> 32:10.170]  Oh, that sounds like at least the right country.
[32:10.270 --> 32:11.110]  Yeah, it sounds like the right country.
[32:11.450 --> 32:12.870]  The number has changed.
[32:13.030 --> 32:16.910]  Yeah, but the number hasn't changed because I called this number only a little while ago, so...
[32:16.910 --> 32:17.530]  Well, you never know.
[32:17.670 --> 32:18.990]  It is a very volatile situation.
[32:19.290 --> 32:19.590]  Okay.
[32:20.090 --> 32:20.490]  That's it.
[32:20.510 --> 32:21.910]  No, that number did not change.
[32:22.670 --> 32:23.910]  I'm going to try...
[32:24.550 --> 32:25.730]  I'm going to try a different number.
[32:26.130 --> 32:26.430]  All right?
[32:28.030 --> 32:28.750]  Let's, uh...
[32:28.750 --> 32:29.830]  See, I knew this was going to happen.
[32:29.830 --> 32:30.890]  This is what happens when you try...
[32:30.890 --> 32:33.810]  You try dialing live international calls over the air.
[32:36.490 --> 32:36.810]  Okay.
[32:37.190 --> 32:38.150]  Got the three out that time.
[32:38.290 --> 32:39.870]  Maybe a bomb hit a substation or something.
[32:39.930 --> 32:41.010]  It's entirely possible.
[32:41.170 --> 32:46.830]  I mean, you know, it's the kind of thing that we joke about ordinarily, but, uh, in this case, it absolutely could have happened.
[32:48.330 --> 32:48.730]  Okay.
[32:48.730 --> 32:50.530]  Let's, uh, see if this actually works.
[32:54.160 --> 32:55.020]  Super happy tone.
[32:57.000 --> 32:57.400]  Okay.
[32:57.440 --> 32:58.320]  We haven't gotten the tone.
[33:00.660 --> 33:01.320]  There we go.
[33:01.620 --> 33:01.960]  Okay.
[33:02.100 --> 33:03.560]  I guess I had to process the number.
[33:07.770 --> 33:08.410]  There we go.
[33:08.630 --> 33:09.230]  Yugoslavian ring.
[33:14.500 --> 33:14.900]  Hello?
[33:15.380 --> 33:15.780]  Hi.
[33:15.920 --> 33:16.760]  Is this, uh...
[33:16.760 --> 33:17.260]  Is this Duzka?
[33:17.320 --> 33:17.500]  Speaking.
[33:17.840 --> 33:18.080]  Hi.
[33:18.180 --> 33:19.340]  It's Manuel Goldstein from New York.
[33:19.540 --> 33:21.140]  You're live on the radio right now.
[33:21.300 --> 33:21.500]  Oh.
[33:21.500 --> 33:25.960]  Yeah, we had, we had a bit of problems getting through, but actually not nearly as much as I, as I thought we might have.
[33:26.140 --> 33:26.500]  So, uh...
[33:26.500 --> 33:27.160]  Oh, that's good.
[33:27.260 --> 33:28.620]  Very happy we, we made contact.
[33:28.960 --> 33:40.620]  Now, um, to, uh, update our listeners, uh, you have been involved in radio station B92, uh, which has had a long history in Yugoslavia of, uh, of controversy.
[33:40.820 --> 33:49.300]  I suppose maybe the best thing would be to, to have you explain to us, uh, when B92 started, what your involvement in it was, and anything else that you think is interesting about it.
[33:49.300 --> 33:53.660]  Well, it started, um, almost exactly 10 years ago.
[33:53.860 --> 34:14.380]  Um, on the 15th of May, we were to celebrate the 10th anniversary, uh, so it started under the one-party system, actually, but, um, as a local communal radio station, uh, reaching, um, basically heart of Belgrade, because the transmitter we were allowed to use was,
[34:14.380 --> 34:16.380]  uh, very weak.
[34:16.980 --> 34:27.060]  Um, but then it grew into a, um, powerful sort of radio station, especially when we were allowed to use a more powerful transmitter.
[34:27.540 --> 34:52.040]  And, um, Radio B92, uh, also, um, founded a network of, uh, independent local radio station, uh, throughout Serbia, uh, which rebroadcast, um, B92's news, um, regarded as very independent and unbiased and, and, uh, uh, uh, in many ways, ways accurate.
[34:52.680 --> 35:02.100]  So, um, but now that the B92 is banned, so we had, um, a very, very low profile, um, celebration of the birthday.
[35:02.420 --> 35:08.040]  It was, uh, uh, and also given the circumstances, uh, we couldn't really celebrate much, I'm afraid.
[35:09.860 --> 35:10.620]  Uh-huh.
[35:11.420 --> 35:14.360]  So, now, tell us the most recent developments.
[35:15.220 --> 35:34.560]  Well, um, B92, uh, was banned, um, a couple of hours before the NATO intervention started, um, 24th of May, when our chief editor, Veran Martic, um, was, um, taken into custody by policemen without any explanation.
[35:34.940 --> 35:39.800]  And then eight hours later, he was released also without any explanation.
[35:40.280 --> 35:51.840]  And, uh, they took off, um, excited that, um, I mean, when I say they, I say, uh, I mean, uh, police and, um, some officials from the Ministry of Telecommunications.
[35:52.200 --> 35:56.880]  The exciter is the part of transmitter which enables the transmitter to broadcast.
[35:57.420 --> 35:59.900]  So, um, they took it off.
[36:00.160 --> 36:06.540]  And, uh, and so we could only use internet and satellite links, uh, to broadcast.
[36:06.540 --> 36:08.100]  So we reached only people.
[36:08.120 --> 36:16.640]  We stopped to be FM station at that moment because, uh, only people with real audio and with satellite issues could tune in.
[36:16.880 --> 36:27.540]  Uh, but then, uh, on the 2nd of April, um, the, the station was taken over completely by, by the regime.
[36:27.540 --> 36:30.120]  Um, they imposed new management.
[36:30.220 --> 36:44.920]  Um, they, um, practically expelled the staffers because they said, well, uh, they asked people whether they wanted to work with new management, which was, uh, completely, um, state controlled and affiliated with the ruling party.
[36:45.400 --> 36:52.060]  And nobody wanted to, um, collaborate, so to say, with, uh, with, uh, with the regime.
[36:52.680 --> 37:00.560]  And, uh, they, um, start, uh, broadcasting on our frequency, which is, uh, 92.5 FM.
[37:01.120 --> 37:14.620]  And they were brought, they still broadcast, uh, their news and, uh, the music, uh, they feel, they find more appropriate for, uh, uh, for the taste of the public or whatever.
[37:15.120 --> 37:17.720]  So this is a completely different station now.
[37:18.020 --> 37:25.400]  And, um, and B92 team, um, is still around, but, uh, they are not allowed to, to use their offices.
[37:25.960 --> 37:33.460]  Not even to take, take out their CDs and, and records and stuff they, they, uh, uh, they left behind.
[37:33.460 --> 37:36.700]  So they actually call the radio station B92 still?
[37:36.820 --> 37:37.140]  Oh, yes.
[37:37.300 --> 37:38.800]  They, they call it exactly B92.
[37:38.800 --> 37:52.460]  And they claim this is the true B92 station, uh, which is supposed to be, um, uh, youth radio station, um, to kind of, um, reach younger audience.
[37:52.980 --> 37:54.860]  And, um, they do it their way.
[37:54.940 --> 37:59.980]  And they tune into state radio, uh, after 10 o'clock PM.
[37:59.980 --> 38:04.520]  And they re-broadcast the program by, um, radio television Serbia.
[38:05.200 --> 38:18.380]  So, this is a completely different radio station, uh, and the values they promote are completely different from those, um, we, um, have stood for, for, for 10 years now.
[38:18.540 --> 38:30.160]  So it would actually be possible for somebody in Belgrade who is listening to the radio to, to just hear these new voices on the air, but that basically the same name of the station, it's possible they might even know that something has changed.
[38:30.280 --> 38:30.600]  Is that right?
[38:30.760 --> 38:32.000]  No, I don't think so.
[38:32.220 --> 38:43.180]  Maybe, maybe, um, some, some older people who are tuning in only to the news, um, maybe they wouldn't really recognize the difference in music because they don't really care.
[38:43.500 --> 38:51.280]  Uh, and they actually, we had a very interesting audience because we were attracting lots of younger people in Belgrade.
[38:51.280 --> 38:58.620]  And also because we, certain programs been re-broadcast by various local stations, local stations throughout Serbia and even Montenegro.
[38:59.540 --> 39:12.020]  So, um, but, uh, uh, the, the news we produced, uh, uh, were actually listened to by many, many, um, older people, so to say.
[39:12.220 --> 39:27.000]  And, uh, when the music starts, they would most probably tune into something different because, um, um, we have never played a real pop music and, uh, it is more similar to, to, to college radios around the states.
[39:27.400 --> 39:29.000]  Um, it's more alternative.
[39:29.400 --> 39:37.520]  Uh, it's, it's rather sonic youth and, and it's rather smashing pumpkins than, for example, Brian Adams, if you know what I mean.
[39:37.680 --> 39:38.880]  Oh, yes, we certainly do.
[39:39.740 --> 39:40.260]  Absolutely.
[39:40.260 --> 39:40.420]  Absolutely.
[39:40.760 --> 39:51.560]  So, this kind of music was not really very well received by, by, um, older generation, but they endured and they bore with us, uh, for the news.
[39:51.720 --> 39:54.360]  They, they, they tolerated it, yes, in the news.
[39:54.660 --> 40:02.640]  Yes, because they, they, the, at that time, Radio B92 was the only independent electronic medium in Belgrade.
[40:03.220 --> 40:07.600]  So, um, so that's, uh, what mattered a lot.
[40:07.780 --> 40:17.660]  And it's an electronic medium, so it was quick and fast and, uh, brought, uh, accurate information, uh, promptly.
[40:18.020 --> 40:19.840]  So, this is different from prints.
[40:20.280 --> 40:23.800]  They would have to wait for another day to, to read about that.
[40:23.980 --> 40:29.900]  So, the, the significance of the radio, um, actually increased very much.
[40:30.100 --> 40:34.820]  Well, I'm seeing a lot of parallels here between Pacifica and, uh, what you're going through at B92.
[40:35.180 --> 40:45.680]  I mean, we're, uh, a non-commercial alternative voice, but the only thing we don't have is, uh, armed troops marching through the door, taking over the station and playing different kinds of music and news.
[40:46.180 --> 40:50.760]  Um, it, it makes you think that, uh, such a thing might not be so impossible.
[40:52.520 --> 41:11.320]  Well, now we are actually talking about, uh, a rather different situation because, um, we're now, you could say, between hammer and anvil, uh, because, uh, not only did the regime use this, uh, illegal actually act to, to ban B92 and impose a completely different management and,
[41:11.320 --> 41:17.400]  uh, and, um, and, um, and news editors there, but also because of the NATO intervention.
[41:17.500 --> 41:37.340]  So, uh, you can't really expose yourself much in terms of public statements, uh, if you're banned and if you can't accredit yourself as a regular journalist in, in, in, in this country anymore because, um, you could be, uh, under new decrees issued by the government called the traitor,
[41:38.360 --> 41:46.100]  uh, that you, uh, subversing, um, territorial integrity of the, of the country during very difficult times.
[41:46.660 --> 42:03.580]  And so, um, um, our hands are quite tied at this very moment because, uh, at one, on the one hand you have the NATO intervention and, well, fears for your own security, basic security, so to say.
[42:04.340 --> 42:21.520]  Um, and, uh, on the other hand, uh, hand you have a very, very restrictive, uh, um, legal system now under the state of war because Yugoslavia declared state of war, which immediately has, uh, different legal consequences.
[42:21.820 --> 42:26.760]  So basically the, the bombing has made the opposition be buried all the deeper.
[42:27.680 --> 42:28.240]  Yes.
[42:28.440 --> 42:46.600]  And today we had a very, very sad, uh, incident, um, uh, a couple of days ago, the leader of a, of the Democratic Party, that's the name of the party, Zoran Dzińczyk, uh, was called a traitor by, um, uh, radical party leader, Vojclav Szeszel.
[42:47.100 --> 43:00.380]  Uh, so today, um, the offices of Democratic Party in Belgrade, uh, were demolished and painted, uh, in red paint, it was said, this can be your blood.
[43:00.560 --> 43:14.720]  So these are all intimidation measures by, by, we don't really know at the moment how much they were controlled or were kind of, um, expression of some unleashed, uh, group.
[43:15.280 --> 43:37.060]  Uh, but, uh, Democratic Party in a way, uh, were very, very critical, uh, was very critical towards the NATO intervention on one hand, but also realized that Milošarici's, President Milošarici's policy also, um, uh, actually brought the intervention about in a way.
[43:37.580 --> 43:43.620]  And, um, because of his statements and, and interviews to the foreign press, he was called a traitor.
[43:43.820 --> 43:47.280]  Now the, the offices were demolished in a way.
[43:47.280 --> 43:55.020]  So we are talking now about a very different, uh, atmosphere because Radio B-92 was banned before.
[43:55.320 --> 44:14.720]  Uh, uh, uh, the most recent ban was in, uh, 1996 during the winter demonstration of the massive civil anti-regime demonstrations in Belgrade, when you could say that the, the, the whole world admired the, the, the, the non-violence with these demonstrations and the,
[44:14.720 --> 44:18.580]  the, the, the, the positions of the people who demonstrated for three months in the winter time.
[44:19.140 --> 44:34.820]  And it was banned briefly, but then the international community was actually very much concerned about, uh, B-92 because, um, uh, B-92 was recognized as a genuine voice of democracy in a way.
[44:35.440 --> 44:51.280]  And, uh, and, uh, and, uh, gained many international awards for promoting tolerance, ethnic tolerance, and, and, uh, its campaigns and, uh, against, uh, any kind of ethnic, uh, hatred and for human rights.
[44:51.960 --> 45:02.660]  And, uh, international community put a lot of pressure back to, to the regime and, uh, the, the station was reopened, but now international community is busy doing other things, I'm afraid.
[45:02.920 --> 45:19.000]  And, uh, and, uh, that's why this ban can, um, um, still, still be sort of unnoticed, uh, or, or didn't cause any, any serious, uh, conversation on this behalf.
[45:19.180 --> 45:31.300]  Well, one, one of the questions that I hear asked most often is that, um, is what has happened to all those hundreds of thousands of people who, who stood up against the government so many years ago, and how come they're, they're not doing that now?
[45:31.820 --> 45:38.940]  Well, I tried to explain now what this is, uh, we are currently under the state of war, and this is officially declared state of war.
[45:39.180 --> 45:47.940]  And, uh, I tell you that these, um, this also implies, uh, very serious legal consequences for various activities.
[45:48.640 --> 46:10.520]  And the, the criminal law changed, and the law information changed, and now, um, um, there is a decree that a person could be detained, uh, arbitrarily for 60 days to an unknown place, um, in case Ministry of Interior finds this person, uh, um, dealings,
[46:10.580 --> 46:23.980]  uh, dangerous to, to, to, to the state, or if he or she holds any publications or, or, or, or materials which, uh, contribute to, to, or which undermine state sovereignty.
[46:24.440 --> 46:29.900]  So basically, this is a very, very broad, um, interpretation of these decrees.
[46:30.060 --> 46:42.420]  And basically, if you have a New York Times in your, at your home, you can be accused for, well, spreading, uh, defeatism or, or causing insecurity among people, or et cetera, et cetera.
[46:42.620 --> 46:47.640]  So there is now very little people can do under such a very restrictive law.
[46:47.920 --> 47:01.800]  Plus, on the top of that, you have an ongoing, well, I don't, I don't count these days, but we are well of 50 days, uh, intervention, which, um, causes, uh, lots of destruction.
[47:02.200 --> 47:06.020]  So, these people didn't really disappear.
[47:06.240 --> 47:15.720]  They're somewhere around and they're, well, they, they, um, didn't change their mind in terms of, uh, their affiliation to Milosevic.
[47:15.980 --> 47:27.640]  And people are still, uh, people who were against Milosevic before are even more against him now, but they don't, doesn't really make them necessarily NATO lovers, if you know what I mean.
[47:27.780 --> 47:28.020]  Mm-hmm.
[47:28.220 --> 47:28.560]  Yes.
[47:28.860 --> 47:33.380]  What, what's the general mood like there, uh, as you walk through the streets on a typical day now?
[47:33.660 --> 47:40.920]  Oh, well, I can't say it's a very, it's, it's a bright sort of atmosphere around me.
[47:41.220 --> 47:53.920]  Um, basically, at five o'clock, people just try to go home as soon as possible, um, because, uh, now, these days we have also, uh, daily air raids or alerts.
[47:54.300 --> 47:58.300]  So it's not only during the evening or during the night.
[47:59.600 --> 48:07.340]  And, uh, so people would buy what they need to buy and hurry home and, um, like, um, stay with their families, et cetera.
[48:08.300 --> 48:12.800]  Um, there is no production, so people don't really work.
[48:12.800 --> 48:29.500]  Um, there is no money, so people don't really get their salaries or, or pensions or, or if they do, if these, these amounts are very, very small or not really, um, that don't really match with what they, their allowances were before the war.
[48:30.180 --> 48:41.200]  And, um, busy getting supplies and, um, thinking whether there will be any ground troops or not trying to tune into other news to hear the debate.
[48:41.680 --> 48:47.680]  And because these things, uh, kind of matter and they, they wait for any, for some kind of solution.
[48:47.680 --> 48:56.640]  They, they hope that something will, that there will be an end to, to, to this and, um, some kind of agreement will be reached.
[48:56.640 --> 49:07.760]  But they basically feel quite, quite powerless because, um, they feel that, um, um, now decisions are up in hands of some uncontrollable powers.
[49:08.240 --> 49:14.420]  On one hand, you have Milosevic, and on the other hand, you have, uh, NATO countries, you know.
[49:14.620 --> 49:32.120]  So this is not something people can, can change by any kind of, uh, demonstrations or vote or, uh, or, um, an article published because there is a complete censorship at, at the time, at this moment now in, in Serbia.
[49:32.780 --> 49:40.480]  So, uh, each paper is, uh, sent to the Ministry of Information and has to be approved by, by the Ministry.
[49:40.800 --> 49:43.020]  So, that's it.
[49:44.020 --> 49:51.180]  Do you have any... Anyways, I can say we are now talking, I'm talking to New York at the moment, and, uh, I just had a glass of wine and a tuna sandwich.
[49:51.760 --> 49:58.800]  So, I'm far better off than people in Pristina or Djakovic or Prizren or Pec in Kosovo.
[49:59.000 --> 50:07.800]  So, I shouldn't really complain much if I look... Well, I think you have, you have many reasons to complain, uh, the situation that, that you currently find yourself in.
[50:08.020 --> 50:12.200]  And, and since you are talking to New York, in fact, you're talking to a good part of the world tonight.
[50:12.560 --> 50:27.900]  Uh, can you give us some kind of a message from the Yugoslav people, uh, to the American people as to, uh, um, just what we can do to help, uh, what kinds of pressures we should be putting on to our government officials, where you see this whole thing going?
[50:28.980 --> 50:38.120]  Well, I can't really talk on behalf of Yugoslav people, because we are many, and, uh, I still hope, um, there are different voices.
[50:38.160 --> 50:50.060]  So, I can speak on behalf of Radio B92, and I can speak on behalf of myself, because, um, I don't want to misrepresent, uh, some, some other, um, opinions here.
[50:50.440 --> 51:07.040]  But, um, if we are talking about B92, I can, well, tell you that we are setting up, um, a website, uh, in, uh, in, uh, cooperation with a group, uh, based in Amsterdam, called Help B92.
[51:07.400 --> 51:11.640]  And our website is called freeb92.net.
[51:11.840 --> 51:26.980]  So, you can go and visit the, the site and, um, and check out for the news, but also the atmosphere and the activities conducted by the B92, who, as I said, won several important international prizes.
[51:27.140 --> 51:31.460]  The last one was actually delivered by Mike Stipe from R.E.M.
[51:31.620 --> 51:37.320]  to Veran Matic in Milan on the, um, MTV awards for the Free Your Mind award, it was.
[51:37.960 --> 52:01.080]  And, um, and, uh, so, at this moment, when we can't really broadcast, we try to use internet as an alternative means to express our, uh, well, opinions and also to inform the public about the, um, oppression here and about the legal decrees which hinder,
[52:01.080 --> 52:19.940]  um, opposition activities at the moment and also offer several useful links, uh, for anyone who wants to, um, get some information about the situation here in, in, uh, in Yugoslavia and, and around it.
[52:20.800 --> 52:29.900]  But what to say and what to, well, um, to, to, to the American public, uh, I, well, I can't really say much.
[52:30.060 --> 52:43.580]  I, I, um, I believe there will be no ground troops now because for me, it would mean, uh, general mobilization, which means that all the men I know who are some, some of them are in hiding.
[52:43.580 --> 52:45.440]  They don't want to be drafted into war.
[52:45.500 --> 52:47.600]  They don't believe this is, is there.
[52:48.480 --> 52:54.420]  Uh, so the general mobilization with the ground troops would mean that all the men I know would be forced into the army.
[52:54.680 --> 53:04.600]  And, um, I believe that many, many lives will, will be lost in, in this very, very hard battle over Kosovo.
[53:04.760 --> 53:21.020]  So I hope that, um, the American people realize that, um, Serbia is not really a monolith state with one very pro Milosevic's, uh, standpoint or, or opinion.
[53:21.020 --> 53:47.940]  I wish they believed that there are still people around who keep their criticism and retain their criticism, uh, of the regime, uh, as they did for 10 years now, since, uh, he rose to power, but that the NATO intervention does not really help them express these feelings and try to do any prudent or,
[53:48.620 --> 53:58.200]  or, or, um, um, or so to say, um, significant action in, in, in, in the direction to, to change anything in, in, in, in the country.
[53:59.780 --> 54:11.820]  Well, I think what a lot of people forgot about when this whole thing started was that there are civilians in any country and, and that, uh, these, these bombings have, have taken a toll and, and are continuing to take a toll.
[54:11.960 --> 54:13.340]  There are always civilian casualties.
[54:13.680 --> 54:23.060]  And while we may say time after time, after, after we bomb a bus or a train or, or, or whatever, well, we're really sorry that, uh, civilians got killed, but that's, that's a risk.
[54:23.160 --> 54:27.200]  Well, you know, people are beginning to ask how much of a risk are, are we willing to take here?
[54:27.280 --> 54:30.960]  How many civilians are we willing to kill, uh, to, to drive our point across?
[54:31.200 --> 54:34.480]  And just how, how effective is that going to be in the end anyway?
[54:34.820 --> 54:36.860]  Is, is it really going to stop Milosevic?
[54:36.920 --> 54:39.840]  Is it really going to, uh, to help the people in Kosovo?
[54:40.260 --> 54:44.860]  Uh, a lot of questions I see being asked now that were not being asked as quickly before.
[54:45.020 --> 54:47.900]  It was being asked by certain people, uh, many of them here at Pacifica, in fact.
[54:48.280 --> 54:53.840]  Uh, but, um, I, I think when you see, a lot of it is control of, of information.
[54:53.860 --> 55:04.940]  If you see what's going on there, if you see the, the, the, the sites of the street, you, you, you see what it's like to, uh, to live through the eyes of somebody in Belgrade, you, you begin to think of it in a different way.
[55:04.940 --> 55:10.720]  And if it's, if it's cut off from you, if you don't see it, then you don't think about it.
[55:10.980 --> 55:19.620]  Now, I find this particularly interesting because there has been talk recently of, uh, the United States and other NATO countries seeking to cut off Yugoslavia from the internet.
[55:20.200 --> 55:20.460]  Yes.
[55:20.660 --> 55:21.440]  Oh, right.
[55:21.740 --> 55:23.780]  I, I, I had to laugh.
[55:23.940 --> 55:45.600]  I, well, I, I, I was really very angry, uh, with that because, um, not so long time ago, uh, NATO had an interesting idea of setting up a web page, in Serbo-Kroat, what they could, through which they could inform Serbian public about, um, the real story or the real news or what,
[55:45.740 --> 55:48.100]  because they said, well, people don't know really what's happening.
[55:48.260 --> 55:51.160]  If they know, if they learn, they would change their minds.
[55:51.280 --> 55:54.220]  They wouldn't really, uh, they would turn against Milosevic.
[55:54.720 --> 56:03.480]  And I was imagining in villages, like some, uh, peasants with laptops tuning in or, or, or logging into NATO web pages.
[56:03.640 --> 56:22.180]  And I, I just had to laugh because people who had access to internet, they are not, I mean, they, they do read New York Times and they do read, uh, uh, whatever, CNN or, or BBC pages, or they visit, uh, other important sites.
[56:22.480 --> 56:28.400]  And then after a couple of weeks, they said, no, actually, we think we should ban internet in this country.
[56:28.600 --> 56:35.120]  So these people just can be kept in, uh, even, uh, greater darkness.
[56:35.420 --> 56:41.840]  So I think it was, it was a very, very, well, stupid, I have to say a silly, silly decision.
[56:41.880 --> 56:47.140]  And I'm very happy that it, actually, um, was never really conducted.
[56:47.600 --> 57:11.780]  And, and, uh, James Rubin actually realized that that idea was not extremely intelligent, but, um, the thing about, if we have to go back to the intervention, uh, and, uh, NATO air raids, I, um, do realize the efforts to stop the suffering of the Albanian population in Kosovo.
[57:12.320 --> 57:28.140]  Um, but I just couldn't really see how do you protect civilians on the ground as this intervention was, um, designed in the first place with F-16s and with Tomahawks, because I think it was slightly immoral.
[57:28.500 --> 57:43.420]  If you can't really send the ground troops from the very beginning and then protect the civilians on the ground, because if you want to expel somebody from your country, you don't need radar systems or, or anti-aircraft defense systems.
[57:43.660 --> 57:51.100]  You need a knife or AK or a rifle, and then you can just continue with ethnic cleansing.
[57:51.420 --> 58:09.160]  And I thought actually that they miscalculated the, the, the potential of, of the Yugoslav army, because I, I believe they hope that this will be over in couple of days, the most preponderous force in the world nature attacks, quite small states.
[58:09.460 --> 58:14.700]  Serbia is quite small compared to, to European standards, even not to mention America.
[58:15.300 --> 58:21.960]  But this whole affair and enterprise goes on for 50 days and, and we're still back to square one.
[58:22.180 --> 58:25.540]  Um, we still have lots of refugees outside the country.
[58:25.740 --> 58:28.200]  We have lots of internally displaced persons.
[58:28.640 --> 58:34.640]  And, um, it's very hard for us here in Belgrade to see any end game.
[58:34.880 --> 58:40.860]  I believe it must be very hard for you even to, to, to see any exit, uh, out of this.
[58:40.960 --> 58:50.380]  And this is what kind of scares me because if there is no coherence plan or strategy, you know, one day we are shutting, we're opening internet links.
[58:50.540 --> 58:54.080]  So most of can, can be informed about the situation.
[58:54.300 --> 58:59.160]  The second day you say, no, internet has to be banned because they don't deserve to read the internet.
[58:59.320 --> 59:05.540]  They are barbarians, as we often hear by certain, um, Western representatives.
[59:06.020 --> 59:11.740]  Uh, and then, you know, we see, there are lots of confusion among, um, policy makers.
[59:12.260 --> 59:13.500]  There will be ground troops.
[59:13.680 --> 59:14.900]  No, there won't be ground troops.
[59:15.060 --> 59:24.160]  And there are various different, uh, considerations which I think, um, do not really help this whole affair is resolved.
[59:25.220 --> 59:30.940]  We're speaking with, uh, Duska from, uh, the, uh, original B92 radio in, uh, Belgrade, Yugoslavia.
[59:31.300 --> 59:33.580]  And, uh, Duska, we're in our, uh, final moments here.
[59:33.660 --> 59:39.620]  I'd just like to ask you what is, um, on the agenda for, uh, the people, the original people of B92.
[59:39.920 --> 59:42.960]  Is there, uh, anything planned, say, for the, uh, internet or anything like that?
[59:43.040 --> 59:49.660]  And also, please tell us how, uh, people here in this country can help, can contact you and, uh, just what it is that we can be doing.
[59:50.400 --> 01:00:10.160]  So there is, uh, apart from this website, we are, uh, setting up and also, uh, with friends who live abroad, some part, some, some radio B92 people just happen to be abroad and they're, they're men and they don't want to come back because they won't be able to leave the country anymore because of the new,
[01:00:10.320 --> 01:00:11.380]  the new law.
[01:00:11.620 --> 01:00:25.760]  But also we have, um, received a lot of support by various international, um, media, uh, organizations, uh, committee to protect journalists based in New York, uh, being one of them.
[01:00:25.980 --> 01:00:38.780]  But also AMARC, the, uh, world community of, uh, the world association of, uh, community radio stations, um, also launched a, uh, solidarity project in, in support of B92.
[01:00:38.780 --> 01:00:49.040]  And, um, um, uh, people can send, um, um, their, um, well, um, support letters.
[01:00:49.340 --> 01:00:56.780]  They can even send, uh, checks to, to the media development loan fund for free B92.
[01:00:57.680 --> 01:01:06.700]  Uh, it's also based in New York and, uh, uh, uh, uh, it's, uh, 45 west 21st street.
[01:01:07.040 --> 01:01:11.820]  And, uh, so people can, can also call them and see what they can do for us.
[01:01:12.620 --> 01:01:31.920]  Uh, the world, uh, association for community radio stations are also, um, uh, trying to get various, uh, radio stations around the world to, uh, send small donations and sort of say adopt a B92 journalist.
[00:02.280 --> 00:03.460]  And stay safe.
[00:03.660 --> 00:05.860]  Thank you, and goodbye to all your listeners.
[00:06.440 --> 00:06.980]  Okay, good night.
[00:07.080 --> 00:07.920]  Bye, good night.
[00:08.520 --> 00:10.740]  And we were speaking with Duska.
[00:10.960 --> 00:15.900]  I'm sorry, I couldn't even begin to pronounce the last name, from B92 in Belgrade.
[00:16.040 --> 00:17.100]  I was live from Yugoslavia.
[00:17.220 --> 00:18.660]  I was amazed, actually, we got through so easily.
[00:20.420 --> 00:23.760]  That's something, that really is, Isaac and Laszlo.
[00:24.200 --> 00:26.340]  Somewhat speechless, that's remarkably sober.
[00:26.620 --> 00:30.120]  Yeah, just talking to somebody who's there in the midst of it all.
[00:30.120 --> 00:31.780]  Was that a commercial station?
[00:32.520 --> 00:35.170]  Actually, I believe they were allowed to have commercials.
[00:35.760 --> 00:39.040]  It was a station that was always kind of an upstart.
[00:40.500 --> 00:48.200]  And there are many cases in Europe where you start your own radio station and it's seen as a pirate, and then it becomes legitimized after a while.
[00:49.020 --> 00:51.960]  And either before or after that period, you can certainly have commercials.
[00:52.080 --> 00:55.120]  I'm not entirely certain if they were one of those stations that did have commercials.
[00:55.160 --> 01:01.740]  But the point is, they had a very independent voice, and they gave out information that nobody else would give out.
[01:01.920 --> 01:05.380]  It sounds so much like this place, so much like VAI, like Pacifica.
[01:06.580 --> 01:14.970]  And I imagine that there are a lot of people there who are extremely upset at losing that voice, even if it's just a temporary loss.
[01:15.490 --> 01:18.770]  But the difference, of course, is that there is a war going on there.
[01:18.770 --> 01:28.760]  There is a state of occupation, daily air raid sirens, power outages, media being cut off, talk of the Internet being cut off, and, of course, people dying.
[01:29.380 --> 01:30.540]  And that changes things.
[01:30.640 --> 01:31.700]  It changes things a lot for people.
[01:31.700 --> 01:34.820]  That makes you take drastic measures.
[01:34.880 --> 01:39.200]  And so when a station goes off the air, you don't really say very much.
[01:39.200 --> 01:43.650]  You don't really step in and, you know, protest.
[01:43.650 --> 01:51.760]  I don't think there's very many protests going on in Belgrade today, because in a state of war, there generally aren't.
[01:52.510 --> 01:54.100]  A state of war at home, that is.
[01:58.320 --> 02:03.790]  Anyway, I really hope that that drives home the importance of radio to people, of non-commercial radio.
[02:04.290 --> 02:08.780]  And I must say, looking at the board, I'm not particularly enthused by the reaction we've gotten so far.
[02:08.780 --> 02:13.040]  Maybe it's because we haven't given out as much information as we should.
[02:13.380 --> 02:17.010]  We do have another two hours to go, but...
[02:17.010 --> 02:19.000]  You should say the phone number over and over again.
[02:19.000 --> 02:19.260]  I know, we should.
[02:19.330 --> 02:22.290]  I just couldn't say the phone number while we were talking to somebody.
[02:23.200 --> 02:25.280]  Sorry about your state of war, but we're trying to raise your money.
[02:25.380 --> 02:25.670]  I should go to one.
[02:25.880 --> 02:26.100]  Yeah.
[02:27.600 --> 02:28.110]  I don't know.
[02:28.160 --> 02:29.220]  I just didn't feel right doing it.
[02:29.440 --> 02:30.950]  So let's make up for it now.
[02:31.110 --> 02:36.100]  Let's get a strong showing on the phones and show support for this radio show.
[02:36.100 --> 02:52.980]  So for things like that, let's just ask people right now, and the number is 212-209-2950 to make a pledge, how many times on any other radio station, commercial or otherwise, have you heard an interview of that length with somebody live from a country that we're bombing?
[02:53.140 --> 03:01.960]  I know there's lots of possibilities, countries that we're bombing right now, but I mean, I think that's an important voice that we need to hear.
[03:02.540 --> 03:05.820]  Regardless of what your feelings are towards U.S.
[03:06.460 --> 03:17.380]  policy or towards Yugoslavian policy, it's the opening up of the phones, of the radio waves, to the voice of the people.
[03:17.500 --> 03:21.200]  And that is what Pacifica has represented here in New York through WBAI.
[03:21.360 --> 03:25.540]  That is what we need for you to help support by calling us and pledging.
[03:25.540 --> 03:39.000]  Now, we have a couple of things to offer, not really that related to what we just heard now, but in a way it is, because if you get the CD-ROMs, obviously, you hear the radio shows we've done, and we've done things like that in the past.
[03:39.110 --> 03:44.330]  We've talked to people in other parts of the country, other parts of the world, who are being besieged by some kind of injustice.
[03:45.140 --> 03:48.660]  You'll hear a lot about the Kevin Mitnick case, for instance, which we'll get into in a little while.
[03:50.910 --> 04:01.720]  But you'll just hear so much history being made here at the radio station and here in the United States, and you'll hear how the rest of the world reacts to that.
[04:01.960 --> 04:07.360]  Again, that is available, the CD-ROM set of all the episodes of Off the Hook from 1988 to 1997.
[04:07.860 --> 04:09.640]  That's available for a pledge of $150.
[04:10.160 --> 04:12.300]  Now, that's not the only thing we're offering.
[04:12.400 --> 04:18.300]  If you call up 212-209-2950, you can pledge for other things that they have in the tally room there.
[04:18.650 --> 04:21.320]  So please just call up and ask about those.
[04:21.500 --> 04:24.260]  Or you can just pledge any amount you can afford.
[04:25.580 --> 04:29.830]  I don't think we should really be looking at this as, what can I get for my money?
[04:29.900 --> 04:37.680]  Because the idea is you are getting something by listening, by hearing, by exposing yourself to new ideas.
[04:39.300 --> 04:42.880]  This is a radio station where people do not get paid to do shows like this.
[04:43.650 --> 04:46.240]  And we do it because we love radio.
[04:46.240 --> 04:52.800]  That's why the people of B92 do their thing or try to do their thing when they're not being outlawed because they love radio.
[04:54.260 --> 04:57.000]  They want to put out ideas, different thoughts.
[04:57.200 --> 05:00.500]  And it's also the reason why radio stations like that are the first thing to go.
[05:01.120 --> 05:02.240]  That's always what happens.
[05:02.330 --> 05:07.680]  They always go for the radio stations when there's a crackdown of any sort because people realize the importance of radio.
[05:08.270 --> 05:14.060]  Now, if you look here in New York City, you'll see that there's not much in the way of diversity in New York radio.
[05:14.060 --> 05:15.650]  New York radio is awful.
[05:15.860 --> 05:16.640]  It's terrible.
[05:17.000 --> 05:27.440]  I mean, I don't mean to degrade our neighbors to the left and to the right of us, but boy, we're stuck in a cesspool here.
[05:27.900 --> 05:46.200]  I mean, physically we're on Wall Street, and on the air we're on the FM dial, the most cluttered spectrum in the country where you hear all kinds of the same music left and right, commercials all the time, people screaming at you to buy things, and we accept it.
[05:46.300 --> 05:46.920]  We take it.
[05:47.180 --> 05:48.460]  You don't have to take it.
[05:48.600 --> 05:56.060]  By calling us, 212-209-2950, showing your support for this radio station, for this radio show, you're voting for something else.
[05:56.820 --> 05:59.620]  Now, you may not know this, but you already do this.
[06:00.320 --> 06:08.860]  You do this for all the other radio stations every time you buy something because the cost of any product always factors in advertising.
[06:09.380 --> 06:11.940]  And if you buy something, of course, you're responding to the ad.
[06:12.040 --> 06:14.960]  Even if you're not responding to the ad, the ad gets the credit.
[06:15.120 --> 06:16.380]  That's like a can of Budweiser.
[06:16.640 --> 06:20.200]  It's like a penny or two to actually make the beer.
[06:20.280 --> 06:22.320]  The rest of the money goes toward advertising.
[06:22.740 --> 06:26.860]  Well, Budweiser might be a good example because it feels like it's a penny a can.
[06:28.380 --> 06:29.540]  See, you can't do that either.
[06:29.660 --> 06:34.360]  You can't get on the radio and put down a company if that company is sponsoring you.
[06:34.440 --> 06:37.040]  And imagine if AT&T were to sponsor this radio show.
[06:37.440 --> 06:39.220]  I mean, AT&T is sponsoring off the hook.
[06:39.340 --> 06:40.620]  Well, we're going to talk about AT&T tonight.
[06:40.900 --> 06:42.080]  I don't think that's going to happen.
[06:42.560 --> 06:43.480]  I don't think that's going to happen.
[06:43.560 --> 06:51.340]  Speaking of AT&T, if I might just say this, the reason I was very surprised that that phone call went through, I'm not sure if we actually used AT&T on that long-distance call.
[06:51.400 --> 06:56.500]  Maybe somebody who knows the phone system here, how we tie things together, can run in and explain this to me.
[06:56.560 --> 07:05.360]  But I don't think when you dial long-distance, you're using long-distance, I mean, using AT&T, because I was making many phone calls to Yugoslavia over the past few days.
[07:06.080 --> 07:16.060]  Every single time, 100% without fail, when I tried using AT&T, I got a recording saying, your call cannot be completed at this time in the country you are calling.
[07:16.620 --> 07:17.460]  Every time.
[07:17.840 --> 07:25.740]  I used MCI and I used Sprint and the same percentage of time, which is 100%, the call went through.
[07:26.480 --> 07:28.380]  The call went through each and every time.
[07:28.480 --> 07:32.640]  Now, my question is, why is AT&T blocking all calls to Yugoslavia?
[07:32.720 --> 07:34.460]  At least, why does it appear that way?
[07:35.740 --> 07:36.920]  I'd really like to know that.
[07:37.340 --> 07:38.800]  You might try that yourself.
[07:39.040 --> 07:41.020]  Try, you know, it won't cost you that much.
[07:41.850 --> 07:46.840]  Try 011-381 and I think the city code for Belgrade...
[07:46.840 --> 07:49.600]  Actually, I don't want people to harass people in Belgrade right now.
[07:49.700 --> 07:50.280]  It's the middle of the night.
[07:50.500 --> 07:51.400]  They've got some issues.
[07:51.540 --> 07:52.380]  Do it in the day.
[07:52.500 --> 07:53.240]  They're a little busy.
[07:53.240 --> 07:58.780]  The city code is 11 and then the numbers tend to be seven digits.
[07:59.180 --> 07:59.760]  You'll know.
[07:59.900 --> 08:06.000]  I mean, if you get a disconnected number, if you get a Yugoslavian error message, you'll know that you at least made it into the country.
[08:06.000 --> 08:09.840]  But if you get an AT&T message right away, then you'll know you didn't.
[08:10.220 --> 08:14.440]  Now, the carrier access code for AT&T is 1010-288.
[08:14.840 --> 08:16.600]  That's if you don't already have AT&T.
[08:16.700 --> 08:21.620]  And if you have AT&T and you want to try another carrier, try 1022-22.
[08:22.060 --> 08:22.520]  No, I'm sorry.
[08:23.360 --> 08:26.500]  1222 for MCI, 1010-333 for Sprint.
[08:26.760 --> 08:27.780]  See if those work.
[08:28.180 --> 08:29.900]  Why would AT&T block calls?
[08:30.540 --> 08:31.740]  Maybe they were asked to.
[08:31.920 --> 08:37.440]  The same way that the satellite company is being asked to think about cutting off internet service.
[08:37.860 --> 08:42.680]  You know, if you control the phones, you control the airwaves, you control the internet, you control the people.
[08:43.400 --> 08:46.340]  Yeah, but not the other two major carriers.
[08:46.480 --> 08:47.300]  It doesn't make any sense.
[08:47.600 --> 08:47.960]  We're up to $300.
[08:48.260 --> 08:48.940]  I'm happy to see that.
[08:49.060 --> 08:49.280]  Maybe.
[08:49.900 --> 08:52.000]  We're supposed to be much further than that at this hour.
[08:52.180 --> 09:00.440]  And I'd hate to think that because we devoted time to an interview with an interesting person in a war-torn country that we're falling behind the pledge drive.
[09:00.580 --> 09:02.120]  Instead of repeating the phone number over and over again.
[09:02.340 --> 09:02.520]  Yeah.
[09:02.760 --> 09:07.040]  You know, I hate it when they do that, but we have to do that here because...
[09:07.040 --> 09:10.100]  At least on the other stations when they do that, they really annoy you.
[09:10.100 --> 09:15.080]  They cut in every five seconds and they play the worst, the worst of their programming, I think.
[09:15.400 --> 09:17.620]  And they just basically interrupt it all the time.
[09:17.740 --> 09:19.100]  They have little things going on to the screen.
[09:19.360 --> 09:20.020]  And that's TV.
[09:20.220 --> 09:21.280]  Radio is almost as bad.
[09:21.940 --> 09:22.740]  But we have to...
[09:22.740 --> 09:26.360]  You need phone sound effects, you know, with like the ringing in the background.
[09:26.600 --> 09:26.680]  Yeah.
[09:27.080 --> 09:27.900]  We need a ticker tape.
[09:28.860 --> 09:30.760]  There actually is one of those around here.
[09:30.820 --> 09:31.760]  I just haven't found it yet.
[09:31.900 --> 09:33.180]  What, a phone sound effect?
[09:33.220 --> 09:34.200]  No, it's not a phone sound effect.
[09:34.220 --> 09:35.140]  It's an actual phone.
[09:35.320 --> 09:36.800]  It's a microphone into...
[09:37.460 --> 09:41.280]  I don't think it's the tally room, but it's a room where the phone rings when it's ringing in the tally room.
[09:41.420 --> 09:42.060]  Oh, very cool.
[09:42.260 --> 09:44.440]  Yeah, except it's not marked here so I don't know which one it is.
[09:44.740 --> 09:48.020]  I don't really care that much but we just want the phone calls to really come in.
[09:48.120 --> 09:49.920]  212-209-2950.
[09:50.520 --> 09:51.860]  Here's another package for you.
[09:51.940 --> 09:57.500]  As you know, we do a radio show about computer hacking but we occasionally venture into other territory like we did tonight.
[09:59.050 --> 10:01.420]  And we put out a magazine called 2600.
[10:01.540 --> 10:02.140]  You may have heard of it.
[10:02.670 --> 10:04.160]  2600 magazine, The Hacker Quarterly.
[10:04.560 --> 10:05.640]  It wasn't always The Hacker Quarterly.
[10:05.640 --> 10:06.780]  It used to be The Hacker Monthly.
[10:06.980 --> 10:07.300]  Yes.
[10:07.300 --> 10:09.600]  or The Monthly Journal of the American Hacker.
[10:09.800 --> 10:10.220]  What happened?
[10:11.260 --> 10:18.440]  Well, when we started doing that back in 1984 it was three sheets of paper not even stapled just with holes in them for a loosey binder.
[10:19.220 --> 10:21.640]  1985, we expanded to four of those pages.
[10:22.280 --> 10:32.180]  Then in 1987 we took on the new format of, I guess, glossy cover folded in half except it was only 24 pages and we still kept the monthly format.
[10:32.320 --> 10:44.720]  We realized then that it was a lot more work and a lot more money to go that format and we almost went out of business by the end of 1987 so we decided in 88 to go quarterly and double the number of pages and we've been pretty much progressing from there ever since.
[10:45.060 --> 10:46.640]  So, we're the Hacker Quarterly.
[10:46.740 --> 10:48.460]  We've been that way for quite some time.
[10:48.540 --> 11:00.820]  But anyway, we have a special, really special deal tonight and we were just out in Dayton, Ohio at the Ham Fest Hamvention as they call it out there and we had a bunch of these offers there as well and people were
[11:06.180 --> 11:08.100]  people being enthusiastic about computer hackers.
[11:08.380 --> 11:08.620]  I don't know.
[11:08.720 --> 11:10.600]  You wouldn't necessarily expect it but they were.
[11:10.700 --> 11:11.160]  They really were.
[11:11.920 --> 11:16.980]  We have this special deal and again, people overseas can participate in this.
[11:17.100 --> 11:18.820]  People in other parts of the country can participate in this.
[11:18.920 --> 11:20.980]  We'd really like to know how many of you are out there.
[11:21.320 --> 11:23.820]  We call it the Off the Hook Mega Package.
[11:24.040 --> 11:24.700]  Dun, dun, dun.
[11:25.240 --> 11:25.700]  That's right.
[11:25.840 --> 11:28.400]  Back issues of 2600 Magazine.
[11:28.920 --> 11:29.540]  All of them.
[11:30.000 --> 11:31.140]  Every single one of them.
[11:31.260 --> 11:31.620]  All of them.
[11:31.840 --> 11:32.260]  All of them.
[11:32.260 --> 11:35.160]  1984 to 1999.
[11:35.680 --> 11:36.620]  Do you have those reprinted?
[11:36.660 --> 11:37.120]  How do you do that?
[11:37.200 --> 11:38.400]  No, actually we just printed a lot of them.
[11:38.500 --> 11:43.980]  Actually, two issues and if you can figure out which ones they are, two issues we did have to get reprinted because we ran out but everything else is original.
[11:45.780 --> 11:49.560]  1984 to 1999 plus just because we're in a good mood a 2600 t-shirt.
[11:49.680 --> 11:52.780]  We didn't give that to the folks in Dayton but we're giving that to you for calling in tonight.
[11:53.080 --> 11:54.160]  Total pledge $250.
[11:55.360 --> 11:59.640]  Now, before you collapse in a heap and say wow, $250 is a lot of money add it up.
[12:00.040 --> 12:00.760]  Just add it up.
[12:00.880 --> 12:04.640]  We ordinarily sell back issues for $25 a year.
[12:05.280 --> 12:06.060]  You got a calculator?
[12:06.360 --> 12:06.500]  Anybody?
[12:06.700 --> 12:09.040]  25 times 15 years?
[12:09.520 --> 12:10.260]  That's a lot of money.
[12:10.360 --> 12:10.860]  That's a lot of money.
[12:10.960 --> 12:19.460]  I mean, I know it's more than $250 plus you get $19.99 and you get the t-shirt and besides what we're saying here tonight folks is that it's not about what you get.
[12:19.620 --> 12:22.420]  It's about giving to the station.
[12:22.680 --> 12:23.540]  Actually, it is about what you get.
[12:23.620 --> 12:24.780]  It's about what you get over the radio.
[12:25.040 --> 12:28.640]  Well, and you kind of contribute to the community as well because you're making an investment in the community.
[12:28.780 --> 12:38.140]  And 2600 is contributing this to the radio station because we believe this is a very valuable place, a very valuable concept that needs to remain in place.
[12:38.320 --> 12:39.980]  It's $375, by the way.
[12:40.080 --> 12:40.840]  That's $375.
[12:41.040 --> 12:41.820]  25 times.
[12:41.840 --> 12:52.240]  Usually when you pledge for something on the radio you pay more than what it ordinarily costs the reason being that you're investing in the product mainly the radio station or the radio show.
[12:52.480 --> 12:56.640]  So this is one of these rare instances where you're getting a real bargain in addition to that.
[12:56.640 --> 12:58.940]  So, here's the thing.
[12:59.850 --> 13:03.540]  We can give away as many of these things as possible.
[13:04.000 --> 13:14.640]  2600 is happy to make this donation because without WBAI I don't think we'd be where we are now as far as getting the word out about things like the Kevin Mitnick case or the Bernie S.
[13:14.720 --> 13:16.780]  case who will be joining us in just a few minutes.
[13:17.020 --> 13:17.460]  Bernie S.
[13:17.480 --> 13:17.960]  from Philadelphia.
[13:18.860 --> 13:20.780]  You would not know about these things.
[13:21.460 --> 13:27.260]  And as a result of you not knowing about these things those people they're getting today.
[13:27.760 --> 13:29.660]  It's one hand washing the other.
[13:30.120 --> 13:33.300]  212-209-2950 Please give us a call now.
[13:33.800 --> 13:38.880]  Pledge for either the CD-ROMs or the back issue package.
[13:39.500 --> 13:42.560]  And your pledge really will make a difference.
[13:42.800 --> 13:49.280]  People seem to think that I get this all over the place people seem to think that individuals don't matter.
[13:50.100 --> 13:55.820]  And we always have to remind ourselves that individuals do matter a great deal.
[13:55.820 --> 14:09.900]  because by putting our individuality with other people working towards a common goal all of a sudden your pledge your one pledge doubles triples multiplied by 10.
[14:10.040 --> 14:13.460]  And before you know it we've raised several thousand dollars tonight.
[14:13.680 --> 14:21.260]  That's what our goal is is to raise several thousand dollars tonight and show people that yes there is support out there.
[14:21.440 --> 14:47.900]  Yes what we are doing is important it does matter please give us a call 212-209-2950 we're up to 545 dollars 570 570 changed in the time I was saying those numbers it changed so yes there are calls coming in and that's that's really heartening to see we really care about the listeners out there because I really can't describe the feeling it is at the Trenton Computer Fair a few weeks ago and at
[14:47.900 --> 14:51.120]  Dayton this past weekend just meeting people Oh, they're great.
[14:51.320 --> 14:57.460]  Meeting people who have heard the radio show, whether it be here in New York or out in California or over in England.
[14:57.720 --> 14:59.240]  Hey, you look a lot different than you sound.
[14:59.340 --> 15:00.560]  Yeah, well, never mind that.
[15:00.580 --> 15:01.940]  I don't know what people think I look like.
[15:02.020 --> 15:05.240]  But just knowing that they listen, and it matters.
[15:06.020 --> 15:07.760]  And they feel they have a voice.
[15:07.860 --> 15:13.320]  They feel they have a way of communicating their thoughts, their problems, their ideas.
[15:14.100 --> 15:22.780]  There are so many people who are feeling all kinds of oppression, whether it be oppression at home, oppression in their country, oppression in their school.
[15:23.660 --> 15:27.660]  Well, here we have a place where you can tell people about this.
[15:27.740 --> 15:33.540]  I had one person come up to me in Dayton saying that he'd written a letter to 2600, and he had no idea it had gotten published.
[15:33.540 --> 15:39.260]  This was several years ago where he was being kicked out of school for putting up a website.
[15:40.080 --> 15:46.000]  You know, something as simple as that, something we take for granted, putting up a website that the school doesn't like to get kicked out of school.
[15:46.000 --> 15:51.200]  People now being kicked out of school for wearing trench coats or silliness like that.
[15:51.340 --> 15:57.780]  You know, people who are being kicked out of their homes because they read certain magazines.
[15:59.960 --> 16:02.920]  Things like that, a lot of us cannot believe.
[16:02.940 --> 16:04.340]  A lot of us are not used to this.
[16:04.460 --> 16:06.880]  We think we live in a lightened society.
[16:07.620 --> 16:08.640]  It's not always true.
[16:08.860 --> 16:12.320]  It's not always true, and we have to give those people a voice.
[16:13.180 --> 16:14.880]  212-209-2950.
[16:15.880 --> 16:20.620]  Express yourselves by making a phone call, by casting a vote.
[16:20.960 --> 16:22.440]  Now, Laszlo, you work in commercial radio.
[16:22.720 --> 16:23.200]  Right.
[16:23.880 --> 16:25.440]  What are some of the things you can't do?
[16:26.120 --> 16:30.220]  You know, I was just thinking about this when we were talking to her earlier.
[16:31.120 --> 16:34.440]  A friend of mine is on the air in Philadelphia.
[16:34.440 --> 16:41.800]  He shall remain nameless, because it's a very big corporation that has lots of stations in this town.
[16:41.980 --> 16:43.600]  Example one of what you can't do.
[16:44.860 --> 16:46.820]  That corporation is not Pacifica, I would imagine.
[16:46.980 --> 16:47.140]  No.
[16:47.140 --> 16:48.620]  They only have one station in this city.
[16:48.920 --> 16:49.180]  Right.
[16:50.740 --> 16:53.100]  But I was talking about the Mamiya situation.
[16:54.220 --> 16:55.320]  Mamiya Abu-Jamal.
[16:55.440 --> 16:55.660]  Right.
[16:55.820 --> 17:02.020]  I was talking to him about it, because I've actually done a few features on Mamiya, on my radio feature.
[17:02.020 --> 17:05.230]  We're up to $880, 212-209-2950.
[17:05.440 --> 17:06.160]  Keep going, folks.
[17:06.360 --> 17:07.360]  Keep those calls coming in.
[17:07.460 --> 17:11.790]  And I said, so, you know, have you ever talked about that on the air, just to, like, you know, get some calls in?
[17:11.900 --> 17:13.620]  And, I mean, he's a rock DJ, you know.
[17:13.750 --> 17:13.970]  Mm-hmm.
[17:14.420 --> 17:17.030]  And I said, oh, we've been told not to talk about the Mamiya situation.
[17:17.250 --> 17:18.030]  I said, why?
[17:18.800 --> 17:28.120]  Well, you know, because if, because, you know, there's some paintings on the, you know, in certain parts of town, it says, if, you know, if Mamiya dies, Philly will burn and all that.
[17:28.210 --> 17:30.030]  And we've just been told we don't want to stir up any trouble.
[17:30.200 --> 17:30.900]  I was like, oh, great.
[17:30.900 --> 17:32.380]  Right, so if you have an opinion, you can't say it.
[17:32.440 --> 17:32.880]  That's nice.
[17:33.120 --> 17:48.510]  And there's also been incidences where sponsors on the show, or sponsors of the station, if you have a contract with NFL, if you have da-da-da, you're told these are the issues that you can't talk about.
[17:48.620 --> 17:54.840]  Even if there's a scandal going on, but you broadcast that team's games, guess what?
[17:55.560 --> 17:57.210]  Don't point out the inadequacies.
[17:57.580 --> 18:00.120]  So it's basically censorship of the news.
[18:00.120 --> 18:01.180]  We talk about this.
[18:01.290 --> 18:06.030]  We talk about NBC being owned by GE, and ABC by Disney, and CBS by Westinghouse.
[18:06.490 --> 18:12.420]  And those companies say, well, you know, yeah, we own these stations, but we never, ever tell them what they can and cannot talk about.
[18:12.510 --> 18:14.900]  We expect them to cover stories just like anybody else.
[18:15.270 --> 18:19.550]  But what you're telling us is, at least in the radio world, that certainly isn't true.
[18:19.700 --> 18:23.100]  When I went to journalism school, I came out with bright eyes.
[18:23.180 --> 18:25.580]  I was like, you know, because they taught us all these ethics and everything.
[18:25.580 --> 18:26.730]  I can change the world.
[18:26.970 --> 18:32.250]  And then I went into the mass media, and I was like, this is insanity.
[18:32.660 --> 18:34.470]  This is absolute insanity.
[18:34.620 --> 18:42.510]  I mean, I was actually sponsored by IBM for a very, very brief glimpse of an eye.
[18:42.510 --> 18:57.770]  But, you know, these companies that spend millions of dollars in the computer press, that spend millions of dollars in trade shows and all that, yeah, if they see bad reviews of their products, guess what?
[18:57.770 --> 19:02.510]  I'm pulling my $3 million that I was going to spend with your publications and trade shows.
[19:02.550 --> 19:04.880]  So people say, oh, you know, that doesn't happen.
[19:04.960 --> 19:05.530]  It's nonsense.
[19:05.530 --> 19:09.290]  We're up to $980, 212-209-2950.
[19:09.710 --> 19:13.460]  Again, we have off-the-hook CD, CD-ROMs.
[19:13.580 --> 19:19.920]  You can listen to every edition of Off the Hook from 1988 to 1997 and put that on your computer.
[19:20.010 --> 19:21.460]  100 hours per CD-ROM.
[19:21.510 --> 19:23.340]  Those things really went at Dayton as well.
[19:24.010 --> 19:25.380]  It's pretty cool to be able to listen.
[19:25.680 --> 19:27.640]  I've used this myself for reference.
[19:27.640 --> 19:33.010]  If I need to look up something, I need to hear an interview I did with somebody a few years ago, just bang, put it in there and listen to it.
[19:33.400 --> 19:34.700]  It's really very handy.
[19:35.530 --> 19:36.340]  That's for $150.
[19:36.810 --> 19:45.660]  Also, if you feel like reading some back issues, well, we have all of them for you, 1984 to 1999, plus a $2,600 t-shirt.
[19:46.080 --> 19:53.360]  That's for a total of $250, well below the market retail value.
[19:53.510 --> 19:56.710]  I can't believe I'm talking about something that I involved in, it's market retail value.
[19:56.790 --> 19:57.230]  But it's true.
[19:57.550 --> 19:58.770]  They do sell...
[19:58.770 --> 19:59.600]  Oh, you know what?
[19:59.730 --> 20:01.310]  I'm sorry, I misread this before.
[20:02.530 --> 20:04.550]  You get a t-shirt with the CD-ROMs as well.
[20:04.680 --> 20:05.100]  You do.
[20:05.100 --> 20:05.290]  You do?
[20:05.510 --> 20:05.710]  Yes.
[20:05.920 --> 20:07.010]  I didn't see that there.
[20:08.030 --> 20:09.360]  I should know these things, shouldn't I?
[20:09.400 --> 20:10.400]  But I didn't see it.
[20:10.440 --> 20:12.080]  And if you've already called for that, you are getting it.
[20:12.080 --> 20:13.510]  So don't worry, you don't have to call back or anything like that.
[20:13.510 --> 20:15.050]  You don't have to contribute another $150.
[20:15.510 --> 20:16.310]  It's already there.
[20:16.400 --> 20:17.340]  It's just I didn't see it.
[20:17.470 --> 20:23.120]  Well, and I think the other thing to bring up, though, is that this is something that you support, and you support Free Voice on the radio.
[20:23.310 --> 20:24.230]  Throw $10 at it.
[20:24.230 --> 20:25.750]  Just pick up the phone.
[20:26.030 --> 20:27.550]  Give it $10 or $15, whatever.
[20:27.900 --> 20:31.680]  Because you hear so many people say, that organization, I love them.
[20:31.990 --> 20:33.140]  Have you helped them?
[20:33.360 --> 20:33.460]  Yeah.
[20:33.810 --> 20:37.050]  Have you set the price of a six-pack of decent beer?
[20:37.200 --> 20:37.640]  Send them $10.
[20:38.230 --> 20:39.210]  It's so easy.
[20:39.420 --> 20:39.580]  You know?
[20:39.710 --> 20:40.790]  It's so incredibly easy.
[20:40.920 --> 20:43.270]  People don't realize how basic it is.
[20:43.550 --> 20:47.860]  You know, you send us something, and we use it to give you more of what you want.
[20:48.100 --> 20:56.680]  It's not tied up in some huge corporation someplace with board meetings and stockholders and things like that, where, you know, you never know what's really going on.
[20:56.680 --> 20:58.290]  All they want you to do is just buy their product.
[20:58.310 --> 20:59.400]  You have absolutely no say.
[20:59.470 --> 21:04.050]  You know, they have the 800 numbers on the side of the can that says, if you have any suggestions about this product, please call us.
[21:04.440 --> 21:05.080]  Oh, come on.
[21:05.080 --> 21:05.940]  They'll ignore you.
[21:05.990 --> 21:06.400]  Come on.
[21:06.400 --> 21:14.230]  How about you change your marketing strategies, or you change the design on your can, or you just, you know, make the thing taste better.
[21:14.490 --> 21:16.530]  Anything you say, they'll write it down.
[21:16.680 --> 21:19.550]  You know, maybe they'll send you a little thank you card or something like that, but that's it.
[21:19.920 --> 21:20.400]  That's it.
[21:20.420 --> 21:22.210]  You call us, we listen.
[21:22.420 --> 21:23.880]  You call us, you go on the air.
[21:24.470 --> 21:28.790]  You know, there's no real more basic way to put it than that.
[21:28.940 --> 21:31.880]  This radio station is here for you, the listeners.
[21:32.160 --> 21:36.010]  And now, because of technology, the listeners can be anywhere.
[21:36.470 --> 21:43.160]  You know, using the net, not as the way the corporations want us to use the net, using it through our individualistic spirit.
[21:43.250 --> 21:46.710]  And that's the people out there that right now are streaming and coding for us.
[21:48.000 --> 21:49.900]  We're able to reach so many more people.
[21:50.050 --> 21:55.290]  Again, I'd like to ask, if Porkchop is out there, if you could email me how many people are listening on the net right now.
[21:55.360 --> 21:58.140]  We can give you an idea of just how big that audience is.
[21:58.940 --> 22:01.140]  It's 212-209-2950.
[22:01.380 --> 22:11.000]  If you're out of the country, and again, if there's anybody in the tally room that's not too swamped with the phones right now, because we are getting quite a few phone calls, we're up to $1,230, which is really, really good.
[22:11.500 --> 22:13.440]  Yeah, we were at zero just a few minutes ago, you know.
[22:13.520 --> 22:13.740]  That's awesome.
[22:13.740 --> 22:16.180]  It goes to show that people care.
[22:16.380 --> 22:18.020]  And that really means a lot to me.
[22:18.120 --> 22:19.940]  And I think it means a lot to everybody here at the station.
[22:20.020 --> 22:27.050]  But if anybody in the tally room is there, and they've gotten calls from all over the place, we'd like to know where those calls are coming from, just so we can have a sense.
[22:27.120 --> 22:29.810]  Of course, everybody in New York still matters a lot.
[22:30.420 --> 22:32.860]  Every time I'm away, I always miss this place.
[22:34.140 --> 22:39.040]  So New York is where, you know, the station is.
[22:39.200 --> 22:42.780]  And of course, we hope to hear from people in the surrounding area as well.
[22:42.920 --> 22:45.700]  212-209-2950.
[22:45.940 --> 22:53.310]  Again, we have the packages of off-the-hook CD-ROMs and 2600 back issues, every single last one of them.
[22:54.380 --> 23:01.980]  People were so sad at Dayton when we started running out of them, you know, because we only brought a certain number in the van that couldn't fit anymore, and we started running out, and they were gone, you know?
[23:02.580 --> 23:03.050]  What can you do?
[23:03.050 --> 23:04.180]  Where's the 1992 spring?
[23:04.440 --> 23:06.220]  Yeah, that was one of them, in fact, that ran out.
[23:06.380 --> 23:07.740]  Oh, I'm quite aware.
[23:07.900 --> 23:08.920]  That's a very popular one.
[23:09.740 --> 23:10.700]  It was sad.
[23:11.260 --> 23:14.290]  Things like this have been happening for so many years now.
[23:14.440 --> 23:22.200]  Since we started putting out magazines, we've been talking about the fight for freedom of speech, the fight to express yourself, hackers being busted.
[23:22.200 --> 23:27.620]  And radio stations being shut down, the whole micro-broadcasting movement, it's all tied together.
[23:27.880 --> 23:28.360]  You know?
[23:28.440 --> 23:31.780]  It all has something to do with each other, and we have to support it.
[23:31.840 --> 23:36.460]  We have to support all aspects of freedom of speech and keep it strong.
[23:36.460 --> 23:38.100]  I mean, look at the FM dial right now.
[23:38.180 --> 23:42.600]  I don't really want to harp on this too much, but it is a very important point.
[23:42.620 --> 23:49.550]  If you go up and down the FM dial, up to the point where you reach 92, and then you start hitting a few cool stations, because they're the non-commercial ones.
[23:49.660 --> 23:54.860]  But I'm talking about in the commercial band, which we just happen to have landed in by pure luck.
[23:56.060 --> 24:00.280]  You will hear, basically, variations on a theme.
[24:00.480 --> 24:00.900]  Zeppelin!
[24:02.060 --> 24:02.660]  Or...
[24:02.660 --> 24:05.520]  Smashing pumpkins over and over and over.
[24:05.600 --> 24:12.920]  Or even the classical stations, even the Spanish stations, you know, they all play commercials.
[24:13.420 --> 24:15.100]  They all have demographics.
[24:15.600 --> 24:19.020]  They all care about certain age ranges.
[24:19.380 --> 24:22.420]  And what it really boils down to is making a buck.
[24:22.420 --> 24:29.360]  There is nobody who does not... who invests in those radio stations who does not expect to make money back at it.
[24:29.840 --> 24:33.810]  Well, if you invest in WBAI, you don't make money back.
[24:34.000 --> 24:38.180]  You don't get a little statement four times a year saying how much your stock is worth.
[24:38.640 --> 24:39.760]  You get radio.
[24:40.120 --> 24:45.700]  You get people talking to you, and you get to talk to those people and hear different ideas.
[24:45.700 --> 24:50.160]  You hear people from Yugoslavia talking to us, talking to us here in New York.
[24:50.160 --> 24:56.040]  I couldn't name a single other station on that dial that would have somebody from B92 on for as long as we did.
[24:57.240 --> 24:57.640]  Yeah.
[24:57.780 --> 24:58.700]  Or even at all.
[24:58.980 --> 24:59.790]  At all, yeah.
[24:59.790 --> 25:00.720]  Even for five seconds.
[25:00.900 --> 25:02.900]  You know, I couldn't imagine them doing that as well.
[25:03.240 --> 25:07.290]  Because, well, gee, I hear this all the time because I talk to so many media people.
[25:07.810 --> 25:09.180]  The audience won't get it.
[25:09.290 --> 25:10.140]  They won't understand.
[25:10.700 --> 25:11.420]  You know, they...
[25:11.420 --> 25:12.580]  It's beyond them.
[25:12.760 --> 25:13.120]  The average...
[25:13.120 --> 25:14.550]  They just keep driving through the drive-thru.
[25:14.550 --> 25:21.200]  The average listener, the average listener, only listens for 2.5 seconds, so how much can you possibly explain in that period of time?
[25:21.290 --> 25:22.020]  Come on, all right.
[25:22.020 --> 25:24.500]  They might listen longer if the content were decent.
[25:24.500 --> 25:25.020]  I'll tell you this.
[25:25.180 --> 25:25.420]  Oh, great.
[25:25.520 --> 25:26.050]  Thank you very much.
[25:26.260 --> 25:28.200]  We have some tally information.
[25:28.420 --> 25:29.260]  From the tally man.
[25:29.420 --> 25:29.680]  Yes.
[25:30.080 --> 25:37.480]  The people who listen to WBAI are people who listen for a lot longer than 2.5 seconds or whatever the average is.
[25:37.880 --> 25:38.340]  All right.
[25:38.380 --> 25:40.140]  We're up to $1,330 here.
[25:41.000 --> 25:44.360]  People who listen to WBAI, I think they should count as 10 listeners.
[25:44.550 --> 25:47.940]  For every person we have, because they are listening to the radio.
[25:48.380 --> 25:48.550]  You know?
[25:48.680 --> 25:49.940]  You say something, they react.
[25:50.820 --> 25:57.900]  You can probably say anything on a commercial station, and if people react at all, it'll take them a good 20 minutes before it hits them.
[25:58.310 --> 25:58.700]  You know?
[25:58.810 --> 26:04.260]  It's basically sitting there in some kind of stone state, you know, just having this music.
[26:04.660 --> 26:04.810]  Right.
[26:04.900 --> 26:07.120]  And then in between the music, this will get brought to you by Coke.
[26:07.840 --> 26:08.200]  Exactly.
[26:08.400 --> 26:08.680]  Exactly.
[26:08.900 --> 26:12.160]  And by the way, we're not brought to you by Coke, so I don't think that was a plug there.
[26:12.290 --> 26:13.640]  But we'd be pretty clever if we were.
[26:13.640 --> 26:14.700]  But we're not.
[26:16.080 --> 26:17.700]  I have nightmares about things like that.
[26:18.020 --> 26:18.240]  What?
[26:18.290 --> 26:18.840]  Being sponsored?
[26:19.080 --> 26:19.420]  Yeah.
[26:19.620 --> 26:20.440]  How does it feel?
[26:20.740 --> 26:22.180]  I mean, really, you're sponsored, right?
[26:23.160 --> 26:26.720]  Well, we were sponsored by different companies along the way.
[26:27.020 --> 26:28.120]  Crucial, which makes Ram.
[26:29.990 --> 26:32.440]  And right now, our really big sponsor is Mindspring.
[26:32.740 --> 26:33.980]  And they're kind of...
[26:33.980 --> 26:37.840]  I feel better about it, because they're more of like a grassroots organization.
[26:37.840 --> 26:44.100]  And I've met the founder of the company, and I'm pretty down with them.
[26:44.220 --> 26:55.980]  But it's a very odd feeling, because when we finally got sponsored, I started to kind of second-guess myself.
[26:55.980 --> 27:00.900]  Yeah, you'd always have to watch your steps, like, hmm, is this going to offend somebody down in corporate tour?
[27:01.040 --> 27:06.580]  And, you know, like I do a feature about the internet and technology, and basically now there's about four companies.
[27:06.580 --> 27:13.700]  So, you know, trying to be topical and newsworthy, you're always talking about somebody's competition, you know?
[27:14.940 --> 27:19.220]  Especially with this whole broadband cable stuff going down.
[27:21.380 --> 27:28.940]  It is a bit of an odd feeling, but you just kind of ignore it and, you know, keep talking until somebody complains.
[27:29.050 --> 27:29.880]  Hey, check this out.
[27:29.920 --> 27:30.220]  I'm sorry.
[27:30.310 --> 27:30.550]  Go ahead.
[27:30.550 --> 27:39.920]  One of the things that we did with MindSpring that I have to give them props for is we signed in the agreement that they have no control over our content.
[27:39.920 --> 27:47.020]  We can say anything we want to, which sounds like, oh, yeah, but that's actually pretty significant.
[27:47.280 --> 27:49.100]  Well, that's also something you had to provision out.
[27:49.260 --> 27:52.420]  There's nothing here that says, you know, we can't talk about this.
[27:52.680 --> 27:56.290]  We're a 100% completely open forum for ideas.
[27:56.290 --> 28:01.420]  Because anyone's, anybody who thinks whatever, we're here and we'll get that out.
[28:01.860 --> 28:03.380]  Yes, it does grab you.
[28:04.120 --> 28:04.660]  Oh, my.
[28:05.060 --> 28:05.900]  Oh, my what?
[28:06.120 --> 28:07.420]  I just watched the numbers go up.
[28:07.500 --> 28:09.120]  They're up to $1,830 right now.
[28:09.290 --> 28:09.600]  Wow.
[28:09.940 --> 28:10.310]  That's something.
[28:10.400 --> 28:11.860]  Whatever you guys are talking about there, yeah.
[28:12.020 --> 28:12.380]  Oh, okay.
[28:12.780 --> 28:13.840]  I was actually...
[28:13.840 --> 28:15.280]  I'm more interested in that tally sheet.
[28:15.540 --> 28:18.580]  Well, I was embroiled in some of the things that the tally guy brought in here.
[28:19.140 --> 28:24.640]  We got a pledge for $250 from Luke of Hendon, Hendon in the UK.
[28:25.290 --> 28:25.540]  Really?
[28:25.810 --> 28:26.080]  Yes.
[28:26.220 --> 28:28.550]  That might be our first pledge from England.
[28:28.940 --> 28:29.180]  All right.
[28:29.260 --> 28:31.290]  Well, what's our general mileage to the UK?
[28:31.580 --> 28:32.280]  New York to UK?
[28:32.550 --> 28:33.040]  Well, I don't know.
[28:33.040 --> 28:35.790]  I haven't flown that route in a while, but it's a bit.
[28:35.980 --> 28:36.500]  It's a ways.
[28:36.740 --> 28:38.240]  On the Concorde, it's three and a half hours.
[28:38.900 --> 28:40.500]  We are not the kind of people who take the Conc...
[28:40.500 --> 28:42.260]  Actually, you probably could have taken the Concorde, no?
[28:42.400 --> 28:45.640]  But the new Flight Simulator 2000 game, you can fly the Concorde.
[28:45.700 --> 28:47.040]  That's the kind of flights we take, yeah.
[28:47.700 --> 28:49.100]  I want to thank also...
[28:49.800 --> 28:50.840]  How do you pronounce this name?
[28:51.000 --> 28:52.380]  C-O-R-U-I.
[28:53.280 --> 28:53.600]  That's Cory?
[28:53.860 --> 28:54.050]  Okay.
[28:54.200 --> 29:01.140]  Unless that's a V, and it's Cor-V, but whatever it is, thank you very much for your pledge from Etobicoke.
[29:01.440 --> 29:02.760]  Do you know where Etobicoke is?
[29:02.790 --> 29:07.360]  And I'm probably pronouncing it wrong, so it doesn't even matter that you don't know where it is, because it probably doesn't sound like that.
[29:07.360 --> 29:07.640]  Let me see.
[29:08.400 --> 29:09.260]  It's in Ontario.
[29:09.540 --> 29:09.940]  Oh, it is?
[29:10.000 --> 29:11.040]  Ontario, which is in Canada.
[29:12.300 --> 29:16.240]  I would say it's Etobicoke, but the last four letters are really C-O-K-E.
[29:17.040 --> 29:17.200]  Yeah.
[29:17.420 --> 29:17.720]  Oh.
[29:19.080 --> 29:20.440]  Wait a second here.
[29:20.600 --> 29:22.960]  You think those Coke people.
[29:23.080 --> 29:23.520]  Where are you from?
[29:23.520 --> 29:23.810]  Pepsi?
[29:24.240 --> 29:24.400]  Yeah.
[29:25.100 --> 29:26.790]  I could say buy Coke, I suppose.
[29:27.140 --> 29:27.740]  Pepsi, Montana.
[29:28.680 --> 29:29.160]  Right.
[29:29.700 --> 29:32.050]  And of course, we also got someone from...
[29:32.050 --> 29:35.440]  Nicholas from Waterville, Maine, for their pledge.
[29:35.550 --> 29:36.380]  Thank you very much for that.
[29:36.960 --> 29:37.840]  And Grandpa L.
[29:37.880 --> 29:39.840]  Lewis called in to show his support.
[29:40.050 --> 29:40.400]  Excellent.
[29:40.900 --> 29:41.620]  It's his favorite radio show.
[29:41.810 --> 29:46.160]  And of course, we love his radio show, too, on Saturdays here at WBAI.
[29:46.200 --> 29:49.400]  It's great when BAI producers support each other, you know?
[29:49.520 --> 29:50.580]  And that's the kind of thing.
[29:50.600 --> 29:53.480]  You probably don't see much of self-supporting in commercial radio.
[29:53.580 --> 29:54.120]  It's basically what?
[29:54.220 --> 29:54.440]  No.
[29:54.580 --> 29:55.940]  Dog eat dog, or whatever they call it.
[29:55.940 --> 29:57.290]  Oh, look, someone's back.
[29:57.400 --> 29:57.940]  Where's my dagger?
[29:58.340 --> 29:58.580]  Right.
[29:58.920 --> 30:00.880]  It's some backstabbing with the quickness.
[30:02.050 --> 30:03.640]  We want to thank everybody for calling in.
[30:03.740 --> 30:04.700]  Please continue to call.
[30:04.880 --> 30:05.920]  We're over the 2,000 mark.
[30:06.000 --> 30:07.660]  We're over the 2,000 mark, $2,150.
[30:08.000 --> 30:09.280]  We're approaching 2,600.
[30:09.580 --> 30:09.840]  Yeah.
[30:10.020 --> 30:13.550]  And of course, we want to be around when that magical phone call comes in.
[30:14.100 --> 30:16.550]  But again, we want to thank everybody for calling in.
[30:16.620 --> 30:18.580]  It really does mean an awful lot to us.
[30:18.920 --> 30:21.660]  It means that you care enough to support the station.
[30:22.290 --> 30:25.240]  You care enough to support alternative ideas.
[30:25.240 --> 30:26.700]  And hearing from different people.
[30:27.620 --> 30:29.000]  More things like...
[30:29.000 --> 30:29.340]  Oh, yeah.
[30:29.540 --> 30:30.700]  I'm not giving out the phone number.
[30:30.780 --> 30:32.160]  Feel free to jump in any time and give out the phone number.
[30:32.160 --> 30:32.380]  All right, dude.
[30:32.460 --> 30:34.260]  I didn't want to call you out on the air.
[30:34.310 --> 30:35.000]  No, go right ahead.
[30:35.240 --> 30:37.200]  You can say it now because I failed to say it.
[30:37.500 --> 30:37.600]  Go ahead.
[30:37.840 --> 30:39.230]  212-209-2950.
[30:40.040 --> 30:40.440]  That's right.
[30:40.580 --> 30:40.980]  That's right.
[30:41.100 --> 30:42.540]  And I should be saying it all the time.
[30:42.640 --> 30:44.460]  Maybe we should have a little machine that says it in the background.
[30:44.640 --> 30:48.240]  Because I just get carried away with the thoughts and I just don't think about the practicality.
[30:48.360 --> 30:50.310]  But 212-209-2950.
[30:50.310 --> 31:01.220]  So that is the number to call to pledge your support for this radio station to keep us going, to keep the station on the air, to keep the show on the air, and to invest, to invest in radio.
[31:01.740 --> 31:02.050]  And look at this.
[31:02.140 --> 31:03.360]  I'm getting all these messages on my...
[31:03.360 --> 31:05.860]  No, these are the messages on my phone, which I imagine are delayed.
[31:05.860 --> 31:08.460]  This is actually a pretty humane way to have a pledge drive, too.
[31:08.600 --> 31:13.840]  Because we could just, like, get a Led Zeppelin song and play it over and over and over and over and over again.
[31:13.940 --> 31:14.860]  And then just put the phone...
[31:14.860 --> 31:15.810]  It won't stop until you pledge.
[31:15.880 --> 31:16.200]  Right.
[31:17.600 --> 31:21.200]  And in between, we'll put, like, schlock DJs like, Hey, everybody!
[31:21.460 --> 31:22.940]  Dude, what are you doing with that thing?
[31:23.320 --> 31:26.240]  You know, I think my Omnipoint phone is kind of messed up right now.
[31:26.240 --> 31:28.120]  Because I'm getting all these messages at once.
[31:28.200 --> 31:31.140]  And I'm not getting the message that I was hoping to get, which is how many listeners that we have.
[31:31.380 --> 31:31.940]  Oh, here it is.
[31:32.050 --> 31:32.810]  Okay, I think it just came in.
[31:32.880 --> 31:33.880]  Well, how many listeners online?
[31:33.880 --> 31:35.120]  We have tons of listeners.
[31:35.120 --> 31:35.420]  Right.
[31:35.620 --> 31:37.160]  So far, I don't know when this came in.
[31:37.240 --> 31:41.900]  We had 100 people listening on Real Audio and MP3, which is about average.
[31:41.940 --> 31:42.760]  Actually, a little bit low average.
[31:42.860 --> 31:43.980]  So I'm hoping that goes up a bit more.
[31:44.040 --> 31:47.580]  Because we are trying to get the word out to as many people as possible.
[31:48.500 --> 31:49.680]  Well, evidently, we're doing it.
[31:49.780 --> 31:52.860]  Because that tally board is climbing its way up.
[31:52.880 --> 31:53.380]  Yes, that's right.
[31:53.480 --> 31:54.480]  The tally man is busy.
[31:55.800 --> 31:56.120]  Okay.
[31:57.160 --> 31:57.580]  All right.
[31:57.700 --> 31:59.640]  So is that what an Omnipoint phone sounds like?
[31:59.700 --> 32:00.700]  Because I don't think I want to get one.
[32:00.740 --> 32:02.480]  That's what the messages sound like when they're coming in.
[32:03.020 --> 32:06.380]  Is that the phone that would do the message alert in your ear while you're talking to somebody?
[32:06.380 --> 32:06.480]  Look at this.
[32:06.550 --> 32:07.220]  I got another message.
[32:08.200 --> 32:09.200]  Oh, this is the news.
[32:09.600 --> 32:13.960]  The Federal Reserve decided today that inflation is not enough of a threat to justify an immediate increase in interest rates.
[32:14.050 --> 32:15.660]  That's nice, but it's a waste of my time.
[32:15.680 --> 32:16.720]  So don't do that again.
[32:17.540 --> 32:17.880]  All right.
[32:18.080 --> 32:18.700]  Put that over there.
[32:18.700 --> 32:22.550]  I used my Omnipoint phone going over to Dayton this past weekend.
[32:22.860 --> 32:24.100]  It worked in some places.
[32:24.620 --> 32:25.640]  Who were you roaming with?
[32:26.500 --> 32:28.540]  On the screen, it said 31031.
[32:29.000 --> 32:29.500]  So I don't know.
[32:29.680 --> 32:29.940]  Yes.
[32:30.520 --> 32:31.810]  That happened the last time you went to Dayton.
[32:31.920 --> 32:32.100]  Yeah.
[32:32.100 --> 32:33.100]  I don't know what the company is.
[32:33.120 --> 32:34.880]  I don't know why they can't say their name on the phone.
[32:34.880 --> 32:36.760]  I really wish that worked because I'd like to know who I'm using.
[32:36.960 --> 32:40.680]  I could have sworn somebody called who actually identified that company.
[32:40.920 --> 32:43.900]  Yeah, but it would be nice if they could identify their own company so I would know who I'm using.
[32:44.100 --> 32:46.200]  You mean your phone tells you what company you're roaming on?
[32:46.200 --> 32:49.720]  It says Omnipoint on there right now because that happens to be the GSM carrier for the area.
[32:49.980 --> 32:54.100]  But as you travel around the country, in fact, around the world, that name changes.
[32:54.420 --> 32:55.160]  It's supposed to anyway.
[32:55.310 --> 32:58.700]  Sometimes it just gives you the number of the company instead of the name, which I think is...
[32:58.700 --> 33:00.140]  I got the low-tech cell phone.
[33:00.600 --> 33:10.460]  Well, I also have my Sprint phone, which if you want to talk about low-tech, this was so low-tech that when I was in Dayton and people were calling me, they were getting a message saying I wasn't available even though my phone had service there.
[33:11.080 --> 33:12.520]  And that's just wrong.
[33:12.520 --> 33:14.400]  I had the same thing in Los Angeles last week.
[33:14.400 --> 33:21.740]  I think it's also, I think, when I was at the Electronic Entertainment Expo last week, there was literally everybody was...
[33:21.980 --> 33:22.310]  Yeah, I did.
[33:22.400 --> 33:23.280]  Damn you, I went last year.
[33:23.340 --> 33:26.620]  And that was my Atlanta trip, which you can hear about if you have those CDs, by the way.
[33:26.640 --> 33:27.980]  That's right, the Atlanta trip to hell.
[33:28.280 --> 33:29.600]  Everybody's got their cell phone to their ear.
[33:29.660 --> 33:37.400]  And I would sit there and I would push call and I would have to wait almost 60 seconds until the call started to go through because there were so many people on cell phones.
[33:37.500 --> 33:40.100]  So maybe since you were at a geek fest, everybody's like...
[33:40.100 --> 33:41.000]  No, but it wasn't that.
[33:41.100 --> 33:43.260]  It wasn't that because, yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about.
[33:43.260 --> 33:46.290]  They would say waiting and waiting, but that wasn't the case here.
[33:46.290 --> 33:48.140]  They weren't getting voicemail.
[33:48.280 --> 33:49.550]  It wasn't diverting the call.
[33:49.660 --> 33:53.790]  It was saying that I wasn't reachable at all, which is kind of weird.
[33:53.960 --> 33:55.100]  And I get that here, too.
[33:55.380 --> 34:01.260]  I get people calling me saying, the phone rang 10 times and you never picked up, and the phone never rang once.
[34:01.680 --> 34:04.080]  So there's something seriously wrong with Sprint.
[34:04.160 --> 34:05.500]  Well, the phones here can certainly ring.
[34:05.700 --> 34:10.580]  If you grab your own and dial 212-209-2950.
[34:10.580 --> 34:12.720]  Yeah, you know, that was pretty slick there.
[34:13.260 --> 34:15.100]  That was the slickest segue.
[34:15.640 --> 34:17.060]  That segue was worth 10 bucks.
[34:17.160 --> 34:18.400]  Because, again, I forgot to give the phone number.
[34:18.460 --> 34:18.900]  At least.
[34:19.240 --> 34:21.260]  I was kvetching about the phones there.
[34:21.380 --> 34:22.300]  You should go on a commercial radio.
[34:22.420 --> 34:22.880]  Oh, should I?
[34:23.220 --> 34:24.280]  That was a smashing welcome.
[34:25.380 --> 34:27.020]  We're going to ask you to talk commercial a little while.
[34:27.040 --> 34:28.220]  So beat it before you can eat a weekend.
[34:28.600 --> 34:32.500]  We're going to ask you to talk commercial radio and give us a lowdown on that.
[34:32.500 --> 34:34.880]  Actually, there's one commercial I like, which is the...
[34:35.780 --> 34:36.460]  Is it...
[34:36.460 --> 34:37.360]  It may be Mindspring?
[34:37.500 --> 34:38.740]  No, it's eBay.
[34:39.180 --> 34:46.420]  Where they have the two guys who are, like, sitting there maybe over a beer and discussing the fact that, Oh, you remember the days when it used to be mega blowout!
[34:46.820 --> 34:48.640]  And I guess you've never heard that.
[34:48.660 --> 34:49.380]  I'm going to be quiet now.
[34:49.460 --> 34:49.620]  Ooh.
[34:49.900 --> 34:52.040]  I thought it was going to be funny at some point.
[34:52.080 --> 34:54.140]  Well, it is kind of funny if you know the commercial.
[34:54.260 --> 34:55.400]  Is this a radio commercial?
[34:55.560 --> 34:56.460]  Yes, it's a radio commercial.
[34:56.700 --> 34:59.220]  I like the search engine commercial with the old guys in the room.
[34:59.320 --> 35:00.580]  Yes, that's rather...
[35:00.580 --> 35:02.960]  Especially the sex one that comes up with every search.
[35:03.140 --> 35:04.320]  He comes up all the time.
[35:04.440 --> 35:04.560]  Yeah.
[35:06.090 --> 35:08.520]  So, 212-209-2950 is our phone number.
[35:08.600 --> 35:18.240]  But the one thing I want to say about the Sprint phone was that for some reason, when I was in Ohio, and only when I was there, if I got a phone call from someone with an unknown ID, you know, no caller ID sent, not private, not...
[35:18.240 --> 35:18.940]  Unavailable number.
[35:19.080 --> 35:21.680]  Yeah, not an available number, just no number sent.
[35:22.120 --> 35:23.100]  It rang differently.
[35:23.280 --> 35:24.420]  I got a different ring for that.
[35:24.720 --> 35:24.920]  Ooh.
[35:25.140 --> 35:29.540]  Yeah, I got my usual ring for regular caller ID calls, and then for unknowns, I got a different ring.
[35:29.540 --> 35:32.540]  And when I got back here, it reverted back to the way it normally is.
[35:32.600 --> 35:33.340]  Same ring for everything.
[35:33.700 --> 35:36.260]  It's kind of weird how they can control the way your ring sounds.
[35:36.400 --> 35:37.080]  And what phone is that?
[35:37.360 --> 35:38.040]  Uh, that's the...
[35:38.040 --> 35:38.380]  Your Sprint?
[35:38.680 --> 35:40.040]  Don't get me started on this phone.
[35:40.120 --> 35:41.620]  This is the phone with about two hours standby.
[35:41.840 --> 35:44.440]  Well, I'm interested in the one that has the two different rings.
[35:44.660 --> 35:45.260]  Yeah, I'll throw that at you.
[35:46.130 --> 35:47.040]  I don't care.
[35:47.500 --> 35:48.000]  It's a sensor.
[35:48.180 --> 35:48.820]  So you're paying two...
[35:48.820 --> 35:49.560]  I almost threw it out the window the other day.
[35:49.560 --> 35:50.980]  Why don't you just get one cell phone?
[35:51.380 --> 35:52.460]  Well, okay, here's the thing.
[35:52.560 --> 35:53.840]  I have two cell phones.
[35:53.920 --> 35:54.700]  I might even have more.
[35:56.850 --> 36:00.560]  Because half the time you get one, half the time you get the other, and the other half of the time you don't get any of them.
[36:01.280 --> 36:01.660]  You know?
[36:01.800 --> 36:03.380]  And that's the problem.
[36:03.600 --> 36:09.600]  You see, what we have to do is mount a microwave dish on the top of the van, so that way you can just be always in connection.
[36:09.700 --> 36:10.400]  Or get you an iridium.
[36:15.260 --> 36:18.160]  Is there any companies sending you free product and all that because you're editor of a magazine?
[36:18.360 --> 36:19.340]  We get some of it.
[36:19.400 --> 36:20.380]  We get a lot of junk mail.
[36:21.090 --> 36:27.760]  But we don't really encourage people to send us garbage, like, free software and other kinds of things like that.
[36:28.040 --> 36:28.860]  I brought some garbage free software.
[36:29.040 --> 36:29.560]  Oh, I'll take a look at that.
[36:29.580 --> 36:29.740]  Oh, really?
[36:29.940 --> 36:30.260]  Okay.
[36:30.420 --> 36:30.680]  Well, hey.
[36:32.500 --> 36:33.800]  I figure that, you know...
[36:33.800 --> 36:35.620]  Well, let's do show and tell after the break.
[36:35.620 --> 36:35.880]  Okay.
[36:36.160 --> 36:36.980]  Oh, we're doing a commercial?
[36:37.020 --> 36:38.020]  It's not a commercial, though.
[36:38.120 --> 36:41.480]  It's a song, but it's going to allow me to contact Bernie S.
[36:41.560 --> 36:42.420]  and bring him in on everything.
[36:42.620 --> 36:44.980]  Can I go and get, like, a drink or something while we're doing that?
[36:44.980 --> 36:45.120]  I don't know.
[36:45.200 --> 36:47.400]  You may leave the studio when the song begins.
[36:47.720 --> 36:47.940]  Excellent.
[36:48.100 --> 36:48.220]  Yeah.
[36:48.340 --> 36:48.500]  Thank you.
[36:48.580 --> 36:49.860]  That's just a union thing.
[36:49.960 --> 36:51.240]  We can't allow people to move around.
[36:51.700 --> 36:52.340]  This is a musical change.
[36:52.340 --> 36:53.720]  Okay, we're at 2215.
[36:53.900 --> 36:55.540]  Please continue making those phone calls.
[36:55.540 --> 36:58.220]  If you have not called yet, we really need to hear from you.
[36:58.240 --> 37:00.000]  This is the only show we're doing during this marathon.
[37:00.140 --> 37:04.240]  In fact, it's the first show we've done during a marathon in quite a while, so we'd like to get a very strong showing.
[37:04.560 --> 37:06.220]  I'd say we're about halfway where we want to be.
[37:06.360 --> 37:07.780]  So we don't get kicked off the air.
[37:08.020 --> 37:08.200]  Yeah.
[37:08.340 --> 37:09.540]  Well, they don't do that around here.
[37:10.000 --> 37:12.160]  Give them credit, because people don't know what happens.
[37:12.280 --> 37:12.980]  People don't know what happens.
[37:12.980 --> 37:16.240]  They think, you know, we're slave drivers in the hallways and stuff like that.
[37:16.320 --> 37:17.160]  No, it doesn't happen that way.
[37:17.260 --> 37:18.660]  There's a real sense of family around here.
[37:18.780 --> 37:19.120]  That's right.
[37:20.610 --> 37:24.240]  Nobody expects you to clear with them who you're going to talk to, what you're going to talk about, you know.
[37:24.360 --> 37:30.280]  Basically, I came in here tonight with my show planned, and that is how people do their shows here at the radio station.
[37:30.400 --> 37:38.540]  Everybody has their own way of doing things, and nobody steps over you and micromanages and says, no, you must do it this way, you must do it this way, say this, say that.
[37:39.160 --> 37:42.760]  By the way, it's 839 and 60 degrees outside.
[37:43.980 --> 37:49.280]  You mean you don't get, like, a folder that shows your, you know, how many men 18 to 34 were listening?
[37:49.580 --> 37:51.320]  No, such folder exists.
[37:51.360 --> 37:54.380]  They don't threaten to kick you out after three months because your ratings didn't get a spike?
[37:54.520 --> 37:55.860]  We don't even know what our ratings are.
[37:55.960 --> 37:56.380]  Good for you.
[37:56.540 --> 37:57.160]  Because it doesn't matter.
[37:57.460 --> 37:58.540]  We don't care.
[37:58.980 --> 38:00.960]  Those are our ratings right up there on the screen.
[38:01.180 --> 38:02.500]  Yes, that is what matters.
[38:02.720 --> 38:12.400]  That tally board tells us that people care, and they want to hear people like us on the radio, and that they're really interested in hearing somebody that will get out and grab their attention.
[38:12.680 --> 38:14.720]  Or they want us to shut up about getting...
[38:14.720 --> 38:14.740]  Right.
[38:15.540 --> 38:18.300]  They're willing to pay any amount to get us to stop talking.
[38:18.420 --> 38:21.660]  So that's what we're going to do now is we're going to take a very brief break.
[38:22.280 --> 38:25.020]  Please continue to call us, 212-209-2950.
[38:25.300 --> 38:31.660]  Again, $150 for the CD-ROMs, $250 for all the back issues, and both of those come with 2,600 t-shirts.
[38:31.900 --> 38:32.020]  That's a deal.
[38:32.160 --> 38:33.060]  Really cool black ones.
[38:33.800 --> 38:42.140]  So please, 212-209-2950, country code 1, for those of you who want to join or a British listener out there who already donated, please give us a call.
[38:42.280 --> 38:43.280]  We'll be back in a few minutes.
[38:59.700 --> 39:01.320]  We'll be back in a few minutes.
[39:18.220 --> 39:26.820]  We'll be back in a few minutes.
[39:50.430 --> 39:54.370]  I want to fight the hand that feeds me.
[39:54.590 --> 39:57.490]  I want to fight that hand so badly.
[39:57.890 --> 40:02.690]  I want to make them wish they'd never see me.
[40:04.030 --> 40:09.650]  Some of my friends sit around every evening and they worry about the times ahead.
[40:10.330 --> 40:16.010]  But everybody else is overwhelmed by indifference and the promise of an early bed.
[40:16.590 --> 40:18.630]  You either shut up or get cut out.
[40:18.810 --> 40:20.350]  They don't want to hear about it.
[40:20.390 --> 40:22.810]  It's only inches on the reel-to-reel.
[40:23.590 --> 40:29.710]  And the radio is in the hands of such a lot of fools trying to anesthetize the way that you can feel.
[40:29.710 --> 40:32.350]  The radio is a sound salvation.
[40:32.910 --> 40:35.730]  Radio is cleaning up the nation.
[40:36.990 --> 40:40.630]  They say you better listen to the vice of reason.
[40:42.250 --> 40:46.070]  But they don't give you any choice because they think that it's cheating.
[40:47.910 --> 40:50.710]  So you had better do what you were told.
[40:51.510 --> 40:53.550]  You better listen to the radio.
[41:57.720 --> 41:59.520]  212-209-2950.
[41:59.780 --> 42:02.240]  Please, phone in your support to Off The Hook.
[42:02.240 --> 42:03.400]  The
[42:31.720 --> 42:52.900]  power in the heart of London With the radio switching right at the top But they don't make the city beat They making all the action stop A long time I've gone there with pirates Beating away from the sea Now let's take the silence Cause they ain't good,
[42:53.020 --> 42:55.340]  you're the lightning If you wanna
[43:29.660 --> 43:53.120]  Yeah, it's a radio Yeah, it's a radio Yeah, it's a radio Yeah, it's a radio Hey, hey, you guys Come on Don't say Yeah, well Hey, listen I've been thinking We'll never get on the radio like this You know that?
[43:54.200 --> 44:06.140]  Now, I've been studying the charts Using my mind And my imagination And I can see it all now The drummer's in the box office And he's counting all the money
[44:25.520 --> 44:39.220]  Hey Get that gunning Move it up Wow You don't go Hey Yeah, get that DJ I'm alive
[44:42.250 --> 45:13.050]  And he's seeing me I'm the one that I want I'm fighting And welcome back to everybody The program is off the hook A special extended version of the show tonight And that was music from The Clash And Elvis Costello before that Two entities I think that know something about freedom of speech And freedom of radio Things like that Capital Radio 2 Not the normal Capital Radio that you hear about on
[45:13.950 --> 45:37.170]  What we hear on the radio If we ever hear a Clash song on the radio This is the other version of that That comes off the super black market Clash CD There's something else that we wanted to do tonight We'll do this in a little bit And that is For all the people that are interested in Off the Hook And the theme Which we play every time we do a show So,
[45:37.170 --> 45:37.730]  you know, that theme?
[45:37.910 --> 45:38.350]  Yeah, that one.
[45:38.490 --> 45:39.390]  And the one that goes into this?
[45:41.410 --> 45:41.730]  Okay.
[45:43.090 --> 45:44.930]  Yeah, well, okay, so we're all familiar with that.
[45:45.010 --> 45:47.890]  We're going to play the entire song like we do occasionally.
[45:48.350 --> 45:50.270]  Which we usually do during special shows like this.
[45:50.390 --> 45:51.310]  We'll do that in just a little bit.
[45:51.890 --> 45:52.350]  Bernie S.
[45:52.450 --> 45:53.590]  joins us live from Philadelphia.
[45:53.890 --> 45:54.510]  Yes, good evening.
[45:54.670 --> 45:57.110]  Sounds like you're in the middle of a street market or something.
[45:57.210 --> 45:58.310]  Yeah, it's almost like a hit by a bus.
[45:59.850 --> 46:02.710]  We would have been sorry to have missed that live on the air.
[46:03.010 --> 46:03.570]  On the air, live.
[46:03.570 --> 46:09.930]  Yes, and your donations to 212-209-2950 will go towards Bernie S.'s hospitalization.
[46:10.170 --> 46:10.370]  Yeah.
[46:11.170 --> 46:15.030]  All right, well, we're up to $28.40 as far as the total for the night.
[46:15.110 --> 46:19.670]  Hopefully we can double that by the time we're off the air tonight, which will be 10 o'clock.
[46:20.110 --> 46:23.770]  So if people are just tuning in, please give a call to the station, show your support.
[46:23.870 --> 46:29.870]  And Bernie, just in case you didn't hear already, we are offering two packages for people calling in.
[46:30.370 --> 46:36.910]  One is the mega package of every single back issue sold, plus a t-shirt for a total of $250.
[46:37.790 --> 46:40.290]  And those back issues go all the way back to 1984.
[46:40.330 --> 46:42.970]  We never missed an issue yet, as far as I know.
[46:42.970 --> 46:52.470]  And the other deal, for $150, is the entire CD-ROM set of every episode of Off the Hook from 1988 to 1997.
[46:53.150 --> 46:55.330]  And that's, again, for a pledge of $150.
[46:55.610 --> 46:57.030]  And you also get a t-shirt for that.
[46:57.890 --> 47:01.010]  How many hours of stimulating entertainment would that be?
[47:01.150 --> 47:09.550]  Well, I don't know how many hours of stimulating entertainment there is there, but I can tell you there's 100 hours of audio on each CD, so that's 400 hours total, which is quite a bit for four CDs.
[47:09.870 --> 47:18.450]  A lot of people think that, you know, you can't fit that kind of audio on a CD-ROM, but you certainly can with real audio and compressed sound and things like that.
[47:18.570 --> 47:21.010]  So, yeah, it's possible, and it sounds pretty good, too.
[47:21.090 --> 47:22.150]  Yeah, it's a good codec.
[47:22.270 --> 47:22.750]  Yeah, definitely.
[47:22.870 --> 47:24.730]  Folks at Real Audio have done some fine work.
[47:24.950 --> 47:30.170]  Yeah, and we're also experimenting with all kinds of other audio systems, such as MP3.
[47:30.170 --> 47:42.510]  You know, I think some people are listening on MP3 tonight through our web server, www.2600.com, and a special thanks to Porkchop for getting that up tonight and to everybody else who's coding and serving.
[47:43.050 --> 47:47.030]  And that's how we get out to the world, and we're hearing from people.
[47:47.230 --> 47:49.010]  We got a pledge from England, Bernie.
[47:49.950 --> 47:50.350]  Wow.
[47:50.470 --> 47:52.290]  Yeah, we actually got a pledge from England.
[47:52.430 --> 47:54.090]  Hopefully we'll get more pledges from other people.
[47:54.290 --> 47:55.590]  We're at the 2,990 mark.
[47:55.690 --> 47:56.510]  We're about to hit 3,000.
[47:56.590 --> 47:57.490]  That's really, really cool.
[47:58.210 --> 48:01.850]  Well, there's some people that walked up to me before and said, you're not going to make a dime, you know.
[48:02.110 --> 48:05.670]  All good fun, but, you know, what does the security guard downstairs know?
[48:06.870 --> 48:07.910]  Well, he's a nice guy.
[48:08.090 --> 48:10.590]  He's a nice guy, but he doesn't know non-commercial radio.
[48:10.790 --> 48:17.030]  He doesn't, but, you know, I was on my way out trying to put coins in your meter for your vehicle, and he's like, hey, you got a sign.
[48:17.150 --> 48:18.850]  And I just jingled the coins, and he said, never mind.
[48:19.130 --> 48:19.650]  Yeah, yeah.
[48:19.790 --> 48:20.210]  He's a nice fellow.
[48:20.250 --> 48:20.710]  He's a nice guy.
[48:20.850 --> 48:21.110]  He is.
[48:21.470 --> 48:22.270]  What would we do with that?
[48:22.310 --> 48:24.450]  I would like to donate something to this cause.
[48:27.490 --> 48:32.050]  Donate something for listeners, because they're very set in their ways in the tally room.
[48:32.190 --> 48:33.290]  We can't add premiums.
[48:33.390 --> 48:33.930]  The tally man.
[48:34.090 --> 48:34.690]  Yeah, so just make...
[48:34.690 --> 48:35.110]  Well, I have one.
[48:35.270 --> 48:36.910]  Well, I would like to pledge $100.
[48:37.230 --> 48:38.130]  Okay, well, that's...
[48:38.130 --> 48:38.890]  But there's no...
[48:38.890 --> 48:40.710]  I don't need a premium from that.
[48:40.770 --> 48:42.890]  I'm just going to do that, because I think it's a good cause.
[48:43.010 --> 48:49.390]  Bernie, you know, you hit the nail right on the head, and this is what we've been saying all night tonight, is that it's not about what kind of products you get for your money.
[48:49.390 --> 48:55.010]  It's about realizing the importance of something and donating for that reason, just for that reason alone.
[48:55.110 --> 49:03.550]  And I take my hat off to you, except I have headphones around them, because that is exactly what we...
[49:03.550 --> 49:04.810]  the kind of attitude that we need.
[49:04.930 --> 49:13.010]  And Bernie, of all the people who have earned the right to not contribute to anything for the rest of their lives, I think you've been through enough to not have to do that.
[49:13.010 --> 49:20.770]  If anything, my experiences have made me understand that these sorts of contributions are all the more necessary.
[49:21.270 --> 49:28.230]  And speaking of your experiences, if you get the CD-ROM set, you can hear all of Bernie S.'s experiences.
[49:28.290 --> 49:29.570]  You can hear Bernie S.
[49:29.650 --> 49:32.190]  before all the horrible things started happening to him.
[49:32.190 --> 49:37.110]  You can hear all the way through the end where things turned out.
[49:37.290 --> 49:39.650]  Well, we won't say how things turned out, because I'd ruin the surprise.
[49:40.130 --> 49:42.450]  But, well, obviously you're here now, so...
[49:42.450 --> 49:43.430]  He's not still in prison.
[49:43.990 --> 49:45.410]  I guess things did turn out okay.
[49:45.410 --> 49:46.490]  I'd say I'm doing considerably well.
[49:46.650 --> 49:46.890]  Yes.
[49:47.070 --> 49:48.350]  Considerably better than I was then.
[49:48.590 --> 49:49.570]  And, you know, it was really great.
[49:49.670 --> 50:01.190]  I was telling the folks about Dayton, Dayton, Ohio, going out to the hamvention this past weekend, and how really cool it was to see people out there that really got it, that really understood what it was all about.
[50:01.410 --> 50:07.790]  You know, you think going to a ham fest with a bunch of, you know, cranky ham operators, that they're going to chase you out of town.
[50:07.930 --> 50:08.850]  It's not that way at all.
[50:08.970 --> 50:10.050]  It's not that way at all.
[50:10.110 --> 50:11.570]  We were welcomed with open arms.
[50:12.630 --> 50:17.550]  And, you know, we were talking about the whole Free Kevin movement, the changes in that case.
[50:17.850 --> 50:20.890]  A surprising number of people were very, very well informed on that.
[50:21.010 --> 50:22.150]  They knew everything about the case.
[50:22.250 --> 50:22.830]  They read the website.
[50:22.950 --> 50:23.830]  They listen to the radio show.
[50:24.910 --> 50:25.270]  And...
[50:25.270 --> 50:30.310]  My favorite was the woman who had no technical background, who was just really curious about the whole thing.
[50:30.390 --> 50:31.510]  She had a couple of kids with her.
[50:31.510 --> 50:35.050]  And we told her about the Kevin Mitnick saga.
[50:35.250 --> 50:36.570]  And she said, God bless him.
[50:36.710 --> 50:38.190]  I'll do whatever I can to help.
[50:38.370 --> 50:38.870]  That's great.
[50:39.170 --> 50:42.530]  There was also a guy who was a father.
[50:42.550 --> 50:52.990]  And he was talking about his son having all kinds of curiosity towards computers and getting in trouble at school for experimenting with things.
[50:53.550 --> 51:02.210]  And that was really something to admire because how many parents encourage somebody to be curious, encourage somebody to challenge the system.
[51:02.510 --> 51:07.310]  And this guy, he didn't understand at all what the problem was with that.
[51:07.310 --> 51:14.030]  You know, with a kid doing something that someone might find inconvenient, but learning from it.
[51:14.270 --> 51:15.190]  Not being malicious.
[51:15.630 --> 51:15.990]  Learning.
[51:16.770 --> 51:17.490]  Asking questions.
[51:17.910 --> 51:18.270]  Experimenting.
[51:18.350 --> 51:19.210]  That's what it's all about.
[51:19.650 --> 51:21.170]  And some people really get that.
[51:21.270 --> 51:22.210]  They really understand that.
[51:22.270 --> 51:23.930]  And it was very heartening to be there.
[51:24.050 --> 51:25.230]  We had a lot of fun at this thing.
[51:25.430 --> 51:27.030]  What are some of the highlights in your mind, Bernie?
[51:27.550 --> 51:28.030]  Oh, yeah.
[51:28.130 --> 51:29.130]  It was so much.
[51:29.150 --> 51:30.050]  It was an incredible weekend.
[51:30.050 --> 51:34.110]  I met literally over a thousand people that I've never met.
[51:34.190 --> 51:39.890]  I met a lot of old friends that I've been seeing going to Ham Fest for years, being a ham operator from way back.
[51:40.090 --> 51:41.210]  But just...
[51:41.210 --> 51:42.490]  I find...
[51:42.490 --> 51:46.290]  And aside from, you know, a dozen acres of people's
[51:49.450 --> 51:55.290]  technological trash, their hardware, that they're just cleaning out their basements, just some incredible pieces of equipment.
[51:55.470 --> 51:56.970]  One man's trash is another man's trash.
[51:57.010 --> 51:59.850]  Just meeting people and talking with them about issues.
[52:00.030 --> 52:03.490]  Having a 2600 t-shirt on and people asking, oh, you're with 2600.
[52:03.630 --> 52:04.430]  And then they ask questions.
[52:04.430 --> 52:13.150]  And you meet people from all walks of life who have sort of common themes in their mind about what's going on these days.
[52:13.150 --> 52:14.190]  And it's just fascinating.
[52:14.190 --> 52:14.970]  You don't know how it's people.
[52:16.170 --> 52:17.130]  That's certainly true.
[52:17.310 --> 52:17.930]  That's certainly true.
[52:18.570 --> 52:23.170]  I'd have to say, of all the booths there, there must have been a thousand exhibitors.
[52:23.410 --> 52:24.610]  Would you say that's an accurate number?
[52:26.010 --> 52:28.130]  I would bet there were a good thousand exhibitors.
[52:28.230 --> 52:31.930]  I think the attendance was close to 65,000 people.
[52:32.450 --> 52:32.770]  Wow.
[52:33.190 --> 52:34.350]  Wait a minute, 65,000?
[52:34.350 --> 52:35.890]  I thought it was like 10,000.
[52:35.990 --> 52:36.950]  I didn't know it was 65,000.
[52:36.950 --> 52:37.270]  No, no.
[52:38.130 --> 52:42.850]  The reason I know that is because they were rattling off the door prizes in the arena towards the end.
[52:43.710 --> 52:46.350]  And their tickets were up to like 63,000 something.
[52:46.790 --> 52:49.170]  Are you sure they didn't start at 53,000?
[52:49.950 --> 52:50.270]  Yes.
[52:50.610 --> 52:52.790]  No, traditionally, they've had close to that many people.
[52:53.550 --> 52:53.870]  Wow.
[52:54.010 --> 52:57.990]  No, I guess now that I think about it, yeah, there was a lot of people there.
[52:58.170 --> 53:04.390]  You know, suddenly like a football crowd or something, if you add it all together, that's something.
[53:05.930 --> 53:14.030]  Yeah, I'd say though, where we were at, the one booth out of 1,000 or so that we had, actually we had two spaces because we pulled the van up.
[53:15.530 --> 53:20.270]  We did a few things that I think were kind of, well, different than what most people did.
[53:20.630 --> 53:25.250]  Like, we had a couple of weather balloons which met with some interesting fates.
[53:25.590 --> 53:25.810]  Again?
[53:26.250 --> 53:26.370]  Yeah.
[53:27.470 --> 53:29.430]  Perhaps you'd like to describe that, Bernie.
[53:30.150 --> 53:34.350]  Well, we lost two balloons, actually, with more success than we had last year.
[53:34.430 --> 53:38.170]  The winds were a little less this year, and we were at a higher location.
[53:38.670 --> 53:44.950]  It wasn't in the way of antenna structures and so forth that were problematic last year.
[53:46.030 --> 53:59.090]  Last year, one of our weather balloons snagged a huge ham radio antenna array next to the 2600 van, and the guy had to raise and lower the antenna with this pneumatic pump to strike the balloon free.
[53:59.190 --> 53:59.830]  No, no, wait.
[53:59.870 --> 54:09.130]  I think what happened was the balloon was raising and lowering his antenna, and he didn't know anything about it, and I think that's why we were trying to avoid him this year.
[54:09.910 --> 54:11.790]  That was my recollection.
[54:12.050 --> 54:12.970]  ...of the field this time.
[54:13.770 --> 54:22.350]  Well, there may be a lucky listener tonight who actually might have retrieved something from the heavens over this past weekend.
[54:23.150 --> 54:23.930]  What'd you do?
[54:24.010 --> 54:24.890]  Tie something to a balloon?
[54:25.290 --> 54:51.290]  Well, the first balloon went up with a care package with several pre-Kevin bumper stickers buttons saying pre-Kevin along with an information sheet about his case and another information sheet about 2600 the hacker quarterly along with a notation that if you find this and return the form filled out,
[54:51.290 --> 54:55.990]  you'll get a free lifetime subscription to 2600.
[54:56.390 --> 54:57.470]  Our lifetime or theirs?
[55:00.190 --> 55:00.610]  Well...
[55:00.610 --> 55:23.730]  The second balloon that we lost actually was carrying a hacker t-shirt 2600 t-shirt which I could see I didn't know you did that because I was about a quarter mile away on the other side of the lot and I looked up and I saw this 2600 t-shirt fluttering hundreds of feet in the air from this big weather balloon and that was great it almost looked like a person was hanging from the balloon and I hope
[55:24.210 --> 55:35.850]  no one else thought there was someone hanging from the balloon because it might have caused a commotion the fire marshal was quite excited about anything out of the ordinary there but this balloon escaped on its own Yeah, this one we lost unintentionally.
[55:36.070 --> 55:41.510]  And I only hope when the coat hanger came down that it landed in a field someplace.
[55:41.810 --> 55:45.730]  Well, you see, I don't know how these things work.
[55:45.730 --> 55:48.990]  If the balloon just floats gently down to the ground or if it plummets like a rock.
[55:49.090 --> 55:51.210]  It was a pretty heavy wooden coat hanger, too.
[55:51.290 --> 55:53.370]  It was, but that's what we brought with us.
[55:53.470 --> 55:55.170]  And the intention was not for it to escape.
[55:55.290 --> 55:58.770]  The intention was for it to come back down because you can't get those wooden coat hangers anywhere.
[55:58.930 --> 56:00.790]  Well, heck with the coat hangers.
[56:01.410 --> 56:03.570]  Where did you get weather balloons?
[56:04.030 --> 56:05.030]  Oh, you can find them.
[56:05.050 --> 56:06.750]  Oh, it's amazing what you can find on the internet.
[56:06.930 --> 56:07.250]  Oh, yeah.
[56:08.070 --> 56:11.230]  These are eight-foot government surplus weather balloons.
[56:11.390 --> 56:18.850]  They're bright red, and they're designed for high-altitude use, meaning they don't explode when they reach a semi-high altitude.
[56:18.990 --> 56:23.130]  These things will go up a few miles before they burst.
[56:23.290 --> 56:27.310]  Aren't there regulations on airspace where you can send those out?
[56:29.030 --> 56:32.310]  Well, if you're standing in a parking lot at LAX, I'd say no.
[56:32.450 --> 56:33.410]  Same for JFK.
[56:33.990 --> 56:36.750]  But, yeah, you can kind of launch these things and look the other way.
[56:36.850 --> 56:41.010]  The EPA will probably go after you because they're worried about some wildlife getting caught in it.
[56:41.090 --> 56:46.190]  Or we may have a report about some guy in Nebraska who managed to recover a flying saucer.
[56:46.670 --> 56:47.370]  There you go.
[56:47.730 --> 56:53.050]  Well, I just hope there aren't any deaths or something as a result of this or injuries or anything like that.
[56:53.050 --> 56:55.610]  The free Kevin button has a metal backing.
[56:55.850 --> 57:01.370]  And we were not far from the... Which Air Force base is that, Emmanuel, that we were near?
[57:01.530 --> 57:02.130]  A bunch of them.
[57:02.210 --> 57:02.530]  I don't know.
[57:02.670 --> 57:04.970]  They always seem to be in flocks.
[57:05.130 --> 57:06.550]  I don't know why they're probably right there.
[57:06.810 --> 57:07.330]  The Air Force base is in Dayton, Ohio.
[57:08.030 --> 57:14.750]  And that would have been picked up on radar should they have been looking at the sky that night, which I'm sure they were.
[57:14.750 --> 57:14.750]  Sure.
[57:15.170 --> 57:21.110]  So, it'd be interesting to know what they thought of this bogey a couple of miles up in the air.
[57:22.010 --> 57:23.650]  The F-15s come to intercept.
[57:24.450 --> 57:25.870]  We saw a few airplanes.
[57:26.010 --> 57:26.410]  For all we know.
[57:26.870 --> 57:29.450]  We saw a few airplanes buzzing over the crowd as well.
[57:29.530 --> 57:31.070]  So, there was definitely interest there.
[57:31.910 --> 57:34.310]  But we had a lot of fun with all kinds of things.
[57:34.310 --> 57:40.030]  You know, we were just wandering through the crowds ourselves, and all kinds of different people came and visited us.
[57:40.450 --> 57:41.730]  And it was just great to see that.
[57:41.850 --> 57:47.970]  It's always good to see people turning out in force for one event or another.
[57:49.850 --> 57:51.490]  We're up to $3,600.
[57:51.850 --> 57:52.230]  That's great.
[57:52.390 --> 57:52.930]  It's really great.
[57:53.090 --> 57:53.170]  Wow.
[57:53.170 --> 57:54.830]  2-0-9-2-9-5-0.
[57:54.830 --> 57:58.790]  So, again, those packages are available for you.
[57:58.930 --> 58:07.270]  The complete back issue set or the complete off-the-hook set of all the episodes of off-the-hook from 1988 to 1997.
[58:07.270 --> 58:09.710]  It's hard to believe we were on the air back in 1988.
[58:10.630 --> 58:11.550]  But it's true.
[58:11.690 --> 58:11.970]  It's true.
[58:12.010 --> 58:13.430]  That's when our first radio show was.
[58:13.510 --> 58:15.290]  It was a special back in October of 1988.
[58:15.690 --> 58:18.590]  I remember originally we were supposed to do a special back in July.
[58:20.070 --> 58:21.130]  Actually, it was only me.
[58:21.230 --> 58:22.250]  I was the only person here.
[58:22.970 --> 58:27.430]  And it wasn't even meant to be a show that lasted more than a special.
[58:27.710 --> 58:29.870]  You know, it was just something that we were trying as an experiment.
[58:30.270 --> 58:31.650]  Of course, there was an incident.
[58:31.950 --> 58:35.270]  Well, it was supposed to be on 1.30 on a Tuesday afternoon, I think.
[58:35.450 --> 58:36.810]  Tuesday afternoon, 1.30.
[58:36.930 --> 58:38.250]  I mean, who was on at that time?
[58:38.270 --> 58:38.690]  I don't know.
[58:38.830 --> 58:39.430]  I wasn't.
[58:39.710 --> 58:42.110]  But I came in that day to be on the air.
[58:42.230 --> 58:42.690]  And guess what?
[58:42.870 --> 58:45.950]  Two minutes before that, there was a fire in the Empire State Building.
[58:45.950 --> 58:48.790]  And every radio station in New York City was knocked off the air.
[58:48.790 --> 58:53.370]  It is amazing what the FBI will go to to prevent someone from getting on the radio.
[58:53.590 --> 58:55.010]  Took all the radio stations off.
[58:55.150 --> 58:57.250]  You don't for a minute think that was a coincidence, do you?
[58:57.670 --> 58:58.550]  I didn't think so.
[58:58.590 --> 58:59.090]  Oh, no, no, no, no.
[58:59.210 --> 59:00.070]  It was deliberate, too.
[59:00.670 --> 59:01.530]  Nobody wants to hear you.
[59:01.670 --> 59:08.930]  The airtime was so packed that it took until October to get another slot opened up.
[59:09.250 --> 59:11.270]  And so we did that show back in October 1988.
[59:11.610 --> 59:15.370]  And even then, the show did not become a series until about three years later.
[59:15.370 --> 59:17.750]  So you'll hear all of that, plus more.
[59:17.890 --> 59:20.130]  There were a lot of other shows that we did here on the radio station.
[59:20.550 --> 59:22.210]  A show called The Fifth Corner, for instance.
[59:22.370 --> 59:23.410]  I don't know if anybody remembers that.
[59:24.950 --> 59:25.710]  What was that about?
[59:25.870 --> 59:26.410]  What's that supposed to mean?
[59:26.590 --> 59:26.950]  I don't know.
[59:28.670 --> 59:31.190]  It was basically just a show late at night.
[59:32.110 --> 59:32.690]  Played music.
[59:33.470 --> 59:33.970]  Talked and things.
[59:34.030 --> 59:34.450]  I don't know.
[59:34.630 --> 59:35.730]  It was ten years ago.
[59:36.050 --> 59:38.790]  Now, do you listen to those old shows and realize that you're a lot more polished now?
[59:38.990 --> 59:39.950]  Or are you still...
[59:39.950 --> 59:40.910]  Quite the opposite, actually.
[59:40.950 --> 59:41.210]  Really?
[59:41.690 --> 59:42.390]  He's got worse.
[59:42.650 --> 59:42.690]  Right.
[59:43.270 --> 59:44.330]  Slow and steady decline.
[59:46.750 --> 59:47.370]  But, you know...
[59:47.370 --> 59:53.530]  And you can help this decline by calling 212-209-2950 and pledging whatever you got.
[59:53.810 --> 59:53.930]  Yeah.
[59:54.190 --> 59:59.170]  We got some fine premiums, but, you know, $10, $20, it really means a lot to us.
[59:59.490 --> 01:00:00.650]  You keep us on the air.
[01:00:00.810 --> 01:00:02.090]  You can listen to us ramble.
[01:00:02.330 --> 01:00:09.810]  And we'll probably be able to do another one of these long, three-hour, drawn-out pledge drives sometime in the future.
[01:00:09.810 --> 01:00:11.250]  Yes, we'd like to.
[01:00:11.370 --> 01:00:23.170]  I mean, it's unpleasant having to ask, but it's really not unpleasant giving, because I think all of us have given at some point, too, and you realize that it's part of the process.
[01:00:23.550 --> 01:00:26.730]  The station would not be here were it not for listeners, and that's a fact.
[01:00:27.390 --> 01:00:36.770]  You know, commercial radio, and Laszlo can attest to this, commercial radio exists because of the market economy, because people buy things, because that's just how it works.
[01:00:36.770 --> 01:00:44.410]  And, unfortunately, the radio spectrum, unlike in Yugoslavia, we were just talking to someone at B92, it's just about money here.
[01:00:44.530 --> 01:00:45.330]  It's not about speech.
[01:00:45.330 --> 01:00:46.450]  It's just about money.
[01:00:47.190 --> 01:00:49.970]  And that's, sadly, how it is in most cases.
[01:00:50.150 --> 01:00:53.750]  At 99.5 FM, though, it's about more than that.
[01:00:53.870 --> 01:00:58.050]  See, if this were a commercial station, we would have auditorium testing.
[01:00:58.710 --> 01:00:59.150]  Auditorium?
[01:00:59.150 --> 01:00:59.490]  What's that?
[01:00:59.650 --> 01:01:10.530]  Well, basically, what you do is you get a whole auditorium full of the demographics that you're trying to hit, and you would play some music and say, Do you like this?
[01:01:10.730 --> 01:01:13.470]  Would you like to hear it over and over all day long?
[01:01:14.470 --> 01:01:14.970]  And...
[01:01:14.970 --> 01:01:15.390]  Why?
[01:01:15.650 --> 01:01:15.810]  Yes!
[01:01:15.950 --> 01:01:16.510]  Yes, we would.
[01:01:16.570 --> 01:01:19.170]  So we could auditorium test your show.
[01:01:20.090 --> 01:01:22.490]  Ah, that's a pretty scary thought.
[01:01:23.610 --> 01:01:26.270]  Although we did a show in the auditorium at the...
[01:01:26.270 --> 01:01:26.350]  ...
[01:01:26.350 --> 01:01:26.690]  ...
[01:01:26.690 --> 01:01:27.190]  ...
[00:01.140 --> 00:05.260]  But, you know, $10, $20, it really means a lot to us.
[00:05.640 --> 00:16.080]  You keep us on the air, you can listen to us ramble, and we'll probably be able to do another one of these long, three-hour, drawn-out pledge drives sometime in the future.
[00:16.240 --> 00:17.540]  Yes, we'd like to.
[00:17.660 --> 00:29.740]  I mean, it's unpleasant having to ask, but it's really not unpleasant giving, because I think all of us have given at some point, too, and you realize that it's part of the process.
[00:29.740 --> 00:33.240]  The station would not be here were it not for listeners, and that's a fact.
[00:33.940 --> 00:43.420]  You know, commercial radio, and Laszlo can attest to this, commercial radio exists because of the market economy, because people buy things, because that's just how it works.
[00:43.640 --> 00:51.140]  And, unfortunately, the radio spectrum, unlike in Yugoslavia, we were just talking to someone at B92, it's just about money here.
[00:51.260 --> 00:52.100]  It's not about speech.
[00:52.100 --> 00:53.200]  It's just about money.
[00:53.960 --> 00:56.820]  And that's, sadly, how it is in most cases.
[00:56.820 --> 01:00.580]  Because at 99.5 FM, though, it's about more than that.
[01:00.700 --> 01:04.900]  See, if this were a commercial station, we would have auditorium testing.
[01:05.580 --> 01:06.020]  Auditorium?
[01:06.020 --> 01:06.340]  What's that?
[01:06.560 --> 01:17.500]  Well, basically what you do is you get a whole auditorium full of the demographics that you're trying to hit, and you would play some music and say, Do you like this?
[01:17.780 --> 01:20.480]  Would you like to hear it over and over all day long?
[01:21.940 --> 01:22.380]  Why?
[01:22.620 --> 01:23.540]  Yes, we would.
[01:23.540 --> 01:26.220]  So we could auditorium test your show.
[01:27.220 --> 01:29.580]  Ah, that's a pretty scary thought.
[01:30.800 --> 01:33.760]  Although we did a show in the auditorium at Beyond Hope Conference.
[01:33.820 --> 01:34.260]  At Beyond Hope.
[01:34.380 --> 01:36.340]  That was an interesting technical marvel as well.
[01:36.460 --> 01:40.520]  Yeah, but I think the audience, the auditorium response was all right.
[01:40.800 --> 01:42.860]  You don't have any call-out testing here when people call?
[01:43.060 --> 01:45.680]  Do you think Emanuel should change the way he...
[01:45.680 --> 01:45.800]  No, no, no.
[01:45.840 --> 01:48.620]  No, they usually call in and make their demands on that.
[01:48.620 --> 01:48.880]  Right.
[01:49.980 --> 01:54.560]  Okay, let's go over the update with the Kevin Mitnick case, and it's quite an update.
[01:54.880 --> 02:00.820]  And unfortunately, we have so much to do tonight that we don't have as much time as we should to devote to this.
[02:00.940 --> 02:09.400]  But if you recall, two weeks ago, when we were on the air last, we basically told you of some documents that we had released on the web.
[02:10.460 --> 02:11.500]  Documents that...
[02:12.440 --> 02:14.900]  It's kind of an exaggeration.
[02:15.120 --> 02:16.460]  Is that a nice word for it?
[02:16.660 --> 02:25.380]  Where certain companies said that they were hurt by Kevin's accessing their systems or getting a hold of their source code.
[02:25.380 --> 02:35.520]  Taking a look at NEC here, claiming $1,750,000 based on the development cost for the stolen software.
[02:35.720 --> 02:39.240]  Again, it's a software that was looked at, not stolen because it was still there.
[02:39.440 --> 02:40.580]  That one's actually in the low end.
[02:40.740 --> 02:42.480]  That is very much in the low end.
[02:42.800 --> 02:49.480]  Some of these Nokia mobile phones estimated $135 million.
[02:50.240 --> 02:50.760]  Oh, yeah.
[02:51.320 --> 02:54.360]  We got a hold of these documents.
[02:54.360 --> 02:57.410]  One of them, in fact, came from Sun Microsystems.
[02:58.100 --> 03:09.980]  And they, in a very roundabout way, claimed that their product was worth more than $80 million and implied that Kevin breaking in caused that kind of damage.
[03:10.320 --> 03:22.360]  We found on the web, if you go to the Solaris website, and this is reflected on our 2600.com website, we found that it's available for nothing.
[03:22.720 --> 03:23.380]  Yes.
[03:23.540 --> 03:23.940]  For nothing.
[03:23.940 --> 03:34.460]  And, in fact, they say, Solaris says, that they always have believed that source code should be available to students and enthusiasts.
[03:36.120 --> 03:36.860]  It's important.
[03:37.060 --> 03:37.480]  It's vital.
[03:37.640 --> 03:38.660]  Well, if you're a student, it's free.
[03:38.660 --> 03:39.880]  If you're an enthusiast, it's $100.
[03:40.400 --> 03:41.780]  At the most, it would cost $100.
[03:41.780 --> 03:58.240]  So, what we did was a little calculation, and we figured if everybody exaggerated to this degree, and probably everybody exaggerated a lot more than this, Kevin's total damages, total damage for all the heartache and anguish he caused, is something on the order of $350.
[03:59.380 --> 04:01.120]  That's what we're looking at right here.
[04:01.420 --> 04:04.560]  We saw an estimate of nearly $300 million in damages.
[04:05.060 --> 04:08.960]  We printed the letters, put them up on the website, and guess what?
[04:09.080 --> 04:10.120]  Things hit the fan.
[04:10.120 --> 04:13.780]  It was after we got off the air last week that we found out about this.
[04:14.140 --> 04:24.700]  And that's that, basically, the federal government got wind that these documents were out there and filed a motion.
[04:24.880 --> 04:31.100]  Filed a motion to hold Kevin Mitnick's lawyer in contempt of court for allowing these documents to be released.
[04:31.140 --> 04:35.120]  Now, first of all, there is no indication that that is where we got the documents.
[04:36.000 --> 04:38.760]  They're making a very gross assumption by even saying that.
[04:38.760 --> 04:40.720]  But second of all, why?
[04:41.300 --> 04:50.120]  Why would anyone say that these documents that detail the losses, which is what this is all about, why should that remain secret?
[04:50.360 --> 04:52.500]  Why in God's name would you keep something like that secret?
[04:53.300 --> 04:54.320]  Well, they want to.
[04:54.440 --> 04:55.380]  In fact, they succeeded.
[04:56.000 --> 05:07.480]  The judge, a week ago, had a hearing where she did not object to the federal government's request to keep any further revelations of damages secret.
[05:08.580 --> 05:10.520]  We're not going to hear about it until sentencing.
[05:10.960 --> 05:11.680]  Until sentencing.
[05:11.800 --> 05:15.160]  So there will be absolutely no way to hear any of the evidence.
[05:16.280 --> 05:17.480]  It's supposed to all be kept secret.
[05:17.560 --> 05:19.360]  Well, they don't want any out there because it's so ridiculous.
[05:19.680 --> 05:23.280]  Well, I think what this proves is that public opinion does matter.
[05:23.620 --> 05:26.420]  When people saw this, they started contacting these companies.
[05:26.540 --> 05:29.660]  And these companies, by the way, they claim to have lost all this money.
[05:29.780 --> 05:36.000]  Do you know not one of them has filed any kind of statement to its stockholders saying they lost this kind of money?
[05:36.160 --> 05:39.200]  Do you know that's a violation of the Securities and Exchange Commission rules?
[05:39.500 --> 05:41.820]  And, quite possibly, IRS rules as well.
[05:41.960 --> 05:43.340]  People are starting to ask questions.
[05:43.820 --> 06:00.240]  And these companies are getting very nervous now as it's become apparent that either they lied to everybody about the extent of Kevin Mitnick's hacking into their system and what kind of damage it caused, or they lied to their stockholders and didn't report a major loss.
[06:00.420 --> 06:01.020]  Which is it?
[06:01.020 --> 06:02.220]  You know, we want some answers.
[06:02.440 --> 06:10.000]  Now, what I imagine happened is that these companies started contacting the FBI saying, hey, we don't want to be involved like this anymore.
[06:10.020 --> 06:12.680]  Please get us out of this mess.
[06:12.780 --> 06:20.720]  And, of course, the FBI is very upset now, too, because all of a sudden, people are starting to realize the whole thing has been a charade the whole time.
[06:21.660 --> 06:23.540]  Throughout it all, Kevin Mitnick remains in prison.
[06:25.300 --> 06:35.120]  And he basically has stayed in there since February 15, 1995, over four years.
[06:35.880 --> 06:40.360]  Didn't we run into a Nokia employee at the Dayton Hamvention?
[06:40.520 --> 06:41.300]  Well, we saw one.
[06:41.380 --> 06:42.980]  We saw a Nokia employee, but that was it.
[06:43.860 --> 06:45.640]  How did you identify him as a Nokia employee?
[06:45.660 --> 06:48.960]  They looked broke because they were, you know, Kevin took all that money.
[06:49.040 --> 06:50.020]  He had a Nokia hat on.
[06:50.180 --> 06:50.720]  That was pretty much...
[06:50.720 --> 06:52.160]  That doesn't really say he was a Nokia employee.
[06:52.160 --> 06:56.020]  Well, people were walking around Dayton and TCF with 2,600 hats on that they had just bought.
[06:56.260 --> 06:56.900]  That's true, too.
[06:57.180 --> 06:58.880]  They weren't all 2,600 employees, but...
[06:58.880 --> 06:59.020]  True.
[07:00.620 --> 07:09.040]  Okay, so now we have demonstrations taking place on the 4th of June, which is Friday, Friday the 4th of June.
[07:09.880 --> 07:13.460]  And very briefly, we've added some cities since the last time we were on the air.
[07:13.520 --> 07:16.300]  No doubt we'll add some more next time we're on the air, which is in two weeks.
[07:17.960 --> 07:36.540]  Those cities are Buffalo, Chicago, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, New York, Omaha, Nebraska, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Spokane, Washington, and Washington, D.C.
[07:36.760 --> 07:37.020]  Wow.
[07:37.020 --> 07:40.600]  And every single one of those demonstrations will be starting at 2 p.m.
[07:40.820 --> 07:45.180]  outside the federal courthouse building of those cities.
[07:45.380 --> 07:58.800]  And again, if you want to check the status, see the exact location, talk to the coordinating people, go to www.2600.com slash demo, or just the main page, and you'll see a big reference to it there.
[08:00.540 --> 08:07.880]  And if you want to start something on your own, please feel free to mail us, June4 at 2600.com.
[08:08.000 --> 08:18.560]  It's very important that we have a massive turnout throughout the country on that day, where we'll be handing out leaflets, maybe holding picket signs, whatever it is you feel is right to do.
[08:18.600 --> 08:21.120]  If you just want to stand in the corner and hand out leaflets, that's fine.
[08:21.580 --> 08:26.280]  In San Francisco, there's going to be a... not skywriting.
[08:26.280 --> 08:27.160]  What is that we have?
[08:27.300 --> 08:29.360]  A plane with a banner in the back of it.
[08:29.480 --> 08:31.260]  Did we in New York figure out a way to top that?
[08:31.580 --> 08:37.800]  Well, there was talk of the Goodyear blimp, but so far we haven't heard back from the right people on that.
[08:37.900 --> 08:41.500]  And somehow I don't think Free Kevin is going to qualify as a public service announcement.
[08:41.920 --> 08:42.280]  I don't know.
[08:42.740 --> 08:45.660]  Even though we think it is, I don't know.
[08:45.740 --> 08:51.180]  But again, please, if you have ideas, if you have connections, anything we can do that would be a really cool thing to do.
[08:51.180 --> 08:51.980]  They take PSAs?
[08:52.220 --> 08:56.200]  Maybe like Free Kevin, get a mammogram, something like that.
[08:58.040 --> 08:59.960]  We have to think creatively, definitely.
[09:00.380 --> 09:01.700]  Or skywriting, just skywriting.
[09:01.780 --> 09:02.460]  That might be kind of cool.
[09:03.000 --> 09:06.260]  Well, the airspace over the city is somewhat...
[09:07.180 --> 09:09.180]  But if you go high enough, it doesn't matter if you're over the city.
[09:09.200 --> 09:12.140]  Well, if you go high enough, A, you're not going to be able to read the skywriting.
[09:12.740 --> 09:16.140]  They have skywriting out on Long Island all the time.
[09:16.220 --> 09:16.520]  Oh, yeah, Long Island.
[09:16.600 --> 09:17.000]  All the time.
[09:17.460 --> 09:18.920]  Above Jones Beach and stuff like that.
[09:18.980 --> 09:26.000]  Well, even if it's on Long Island, not in the city, they could put Free Kevin and a big arrow point towards the city.
[09:26.820 --> 09:27.500]  I don't know.
[09:27.580 --> 09:29.520]  Towards California, yeah.
[09:29.740 --> 09:31.720]  Anyway, that's the point, to get people out there.
[09:31.720 --> 09:38.460]  And also, by the reactions of the prosecution over the past week or so, we know that it's working.
[09:38.580 --> 09:39.720]  We know that they're getting nervous.
[09:40.240 --> 09:41.720]  We know that they have something to hide.
[09:41.820 --> 09:43.100]  They don't want it to get out there.
[09:43.100 --> 09:45.400]  So, it's working, folks.
[09:45.480 --> 09:48.260]  But public opinion is playing a very big factor in this case.
[09:48.620 --> 09:57.660]  And you, the public, and your support for WBAI, by calling 212-209-2950, shows that you care about the station.
[09:57.660 --> 10:04.880]  And you want us on the air to tell you about these incidents like Kevin Mitnick and some of the other things we talk about here.
[10:05.720 --> 10:06.080]  Okay.
[10:06.440 --> 10:10.520]  We are at $3,760, and we're very appreciative to the people there.
[10:10.640 --> 10:14.420]  We're going to have another guest joining us in just a little while.
[10:15.560 --> 10:19.180]  Bernie, I'm going to try to figure out a way to keep you on the line, assuming you want to stay around.
[10:19.520 --> 10:20.940]  Sure, I'll stay around if possible.
[10:21.180 --> 10:21.740]  Okay, great.
[10:22.360 --> 10:32.780]  What we're going to do now is something that we do every now and then, and that is satisfy the curiosity of people who listen to the show, who have listened to the show over the years.
[10:32.780 --> 10:35.620]  They always want to know, what is the opening theme?
[10:36.040 --> 10:37.240]  Who does the opening theme?
[10:37.360 --> 10:38.560]  Where can I get the opening theme?
[10:38.680 --> 10:40.480]  Well, the answer to most of those questions is, I don't know.
[10:41.940 --> 10:44.640]  Because, well, it's something that I don't think is in print.
[10:44.860 --> 10:45.600]  He doesn't remember.
[10:46.320 --> 10:47.600]  It's something I don't think is in print.
[10:47.680 --> 10:50.980]  And, you know, it was so difficult to find just the right version of this.
[10:51.100 --> 10:53.600]  Hey, what's that really large black disc-type thing?
[10:53.600 --> 10:57.260]  This is what I understand to be a form of music that...
[10:57.260 --> 11:00.420]  Wow, that is larger than a CD or a DVD.
[11:00.420 --> 11:01.840]  Yeah, it's black.
[11:02.520 --> 11:06.280]  And apparently what they did was they printed the music directly onto this...
[11:06.280 --> 11:07.620]  What are the groove patterns?
[11:07.660 --> 11:08.260]  Black disc.
[11:08.480 --> 11:10.560]  I don't really understand the technology myself.
[11:11.860 --> 11:14.840]  But let me get on with the explanation here of what this is.
[11:15.040 --> 11:19.340]  It's from a band called Big Audio Dynamite, which you've probably heard of, and we've played several times on the show.
[11:19.920 --> 11:22.360]  In fact, one of the CD-ROMs is in an interview with that band.
[11:22.540 --> 11:25.600]  So if you're interested in that, get the CD-ROM and you'll hear that yourself.
[11:25.760 --> 11:26.520]  It is indeed on there.
[11:26.520 --> 11:30.520]  But there is a single they had called Just Play Music.
[11:31.220 --> 11:37.960]  This is what's known as an extended mix, a 12-inch extended mix of that particular single.
[11:38.280 --> 11:40.180]  Now, the thing is, there are several versions of it.
[11:41.180 --> 11:45.960]  Even though it's a hard song to find, there are several versions of it, or of the release.
[11:45.960 --> 11:54.100]  Anyway, there is one 12-inch EP that had two versions of Just Play Music and had a picture of a radio that says Big Audio Dynamite on it.
[11:54.240 --> 11:56.200]  It says, Turn on your radio, Just Play Music.
[11:57.020 --> 12:08.540]  Then there's a second version that has the same cover and a slightly more flimsy material that's packaged in.
[12:08.700 --> 12:10.300]  It says, Turn on your radio, Just Play Music.
[12:10.300 --> 12:16.740]  But on the B-side, instead of Just Play Music, Remix is a song called Much Worse.
[12:17.600 --> 12:20.920]  Extended mix, and it says 648, meaning the time.
[12:21.020 --> 12:26.960]  But then there's a little sticker on there that says, Timing Correction, B-side runs 523 minutes, not 648 minutes.
[12:27.940 --> 12:28.340]  Whoops.
[12:28.540 --> 12:29.520]  I don't know what that was all about.
[12:29.560 --> 12:31.960]  But there are two versions of Much Worse.
[12:32.060 --> 12:32.920]  One is longer than the other.
[12:33.020 --> 12:37.820]  And I'm not entirely sure, because I didn't have access to one of these big record players until just now.
[12:37.820 --> 12:40.840]  I'm not sure which one we're going to hear, if we're going to hear the shorter one or the longer one.
[12:41.060 --> 12:43.140]  I'll know at the end of the song which one it was, obviously.
[12:43.800 --> 12:47.380]  Because there's a third version, and this one says, Big Audio Dynamite, Just Play Music.
[12:47.460 --> 12:51.300]  But it's got a picture of two people on the phone on the front of it.
[12:52.760 --> 12:53.360]  That's appropriate.
[12:53.600 --> 12:57.340]  It has an extended mix of Much Worse on the B-side without any time given.
[12:58.600 --> 13:01.040]  So that's what you have to go through to find that song.
[13:01.200 --> 13:01.980]  It's called Much Worse.
[13:02.040 --> 13:03.220]  It was by Big Audio Dynamite.
[13:03.580 --> 13:06.180]  And it came out in, appropriately enough, 1988.
[13:08.620 --> 13:10.660]  So, without any further ado, let's listen to that.
[13:10.700 --> 13:15.140]  When we come back, we'll continue with this extended version of Off the Hook.
[13:24.040 --> 13:27.100]  No matter what the people say, these songs lead the way.
[13:27.440 --> 13:29.620]  It's out of your day from Boss DJ, Don.
[13:36.840 --> 14:02.620]  The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a cough And now I got a headache Or maybe it's the tooth I'm in the know Things couldn't get much worse I've gots to tell the truth No, it couldn't get much worse But if they could,
[14:02.760 --> 14:10.880]  they would But I best expect the worst I hope that's understood But I'm in the know I
[14:15.040 --> 14:52.100]  just ran out of milk There's no paper in the loo But I'm in the know And now it started raining Lighting under the tooth I'm in the know And I begin to wonder How bad can you get A burger thumbs in through my door Next my TV set So I light up the cigarette Listen to some sounds Set my house on fire Burned it to the ground Couldn't get much worse But if they could,
[14:52.220 --> 14:52.660]  they would.
[14:52.940 --> 14:55.560]  Bum Diddly Bomb for the best, expect the worst.
[14:56.180 --> 14:58.100]  I hope this understood.
[14:58.580 --> 14:59.180]  Bum Diddly Bomb!
[15:04.980 --> 15:06.720]  Now I've got a console.
[15:07.460 --> 15:09.320]  My brother's on the run.
[15:10.480 --> 15:14.740]  I might have a change of luck before my day is done.
[15:15.920 --> 15:17.620]  Couldn't get much worse.
[15:18.260 --> 15:20.160]  But if they could, they would.
[15:20.400 --> 15:23.060]  Bum Diddly Bomb for the best, expect the worst.
[15:23.060 --> 15:25.660]  I hope this understood.
[15:26.080 --> 15:26.720]  Bum Diddly Bomb!
[15:34.650 --> 15:37.490]  A Is for a leader that you can see.
[15:38.130 --> 15:40.070]  A Is for a dynamite at the 80.
[15:40.670 --> 15:42.950]  Phot least for the kid at the tapi 80.
[15:43.650 --> 15:48.070]  oddly demandé that they Herrliandidom and raud by the record and the boss.
[15:48.290 --> 15:49.010]  Home, now!
[15:49.250 --> 15:50.430]  A Say neurologist.
[15:50.430 --> 15:54.250]  A Know, they'd be hired A All-Diam-Art!
[15:54.250 --> 15:54.470]  Go!
[16:00.470 --> 16:01.490]  See sunset.
[17:33.260 --> 17:37.900]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I written off the wall.
[17:38.700 --> 17:43.300]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[17:44.320 --> 17:49.760]  And now I got a headache, or maybe it's a tooth, I mean no.
[17:50.180 --> 17:54.260]  This couldn't get much worse, I've got to tell the truth.
[17:54.920 --> 17:57.120]  No, it couldn't get much worse.
[17:57.900 --> 17:59.720]  But if they could, they would.
[18:00.000 --> 18:02.640]  But did they bump for the best, expect the worst.
[18:03.420 --> 18:05.180]  I hope that's understood.
[18:05.540 --> 18:06.220]  But did they bump?
[18:06.960 --> 18:07.480]  We
[18:29.290 --> 18:31.430]  blocked us, and we wiped us.
[18:31.590 --> 18:34.070]  And we got the old, and now I might bump.
[18:40.220 --> 18:41.040]  See sunset.
[20:11.870 --> 20:12.730]  There you go.
[20:13.070 --> 20:13.710]  That was a lot of fun.
[20:14.530 --> 20:14.910]  Yeah.
[20:15.170 --> 20:18.410]  And I actually hadn't heard the whole thing of that before.
[20:18.890 --> 20:21.750]  That's the first time for me as probably many of our listeners.
[20:21.990 --> 20:24.650]  Needle has moved all the way to the end of the device there.
[20:24.830 --> 20:26.710]  Bring up the sound where it starts skipping.
[20:27.050 --> 20:27.670]  It is up.
[20:27.790 --> 20:28.930]  It's just not making that much of a noise.
[20:29.150 --> 20:29.530]  Oh, come on.
[20:30.750 --> 20:32.190]  Yeah, that's as loud as it's going to get.
[20:32.610 --> 20:32.970]  Wow.
[20:33.630 --> 20:35.130]  That's, you know, I don't know.
[20:35.310 --> 20:37.810]  Maybe those people are right when they say that sounds crisper.
[20:38.010 --> 20:38.410]  It does.
[20:38.550 --> 20:40.370]  On an LP.
[20:40.530 --> 20:42.470]  I actually like hearing the little crackle in the background.
[20:42.930 --> 20:43.370]  It's...
[20:43.370 --> 20:49.350]  What I love is people produce albums now and they insert crackle into the digital audio system.
[20:49.750 --> 20:50.310]  Oh, come on.
[20:50.470 --> 20:51.090]  Yeah, seriously.
[20:51.550 --> 20:53.850]  That's the kind of thing you expect from commercial radio, right?
[20:53.950 --> 20:55.790]  That kind of fakeness.
[20:56.130 --> 20:56.530]  I don't know.
[20:57.010 --> 20:58.790]  It's your wonderful AAD recordings.
[20:59.110 --> 20:59.310]  Yeah.
[20:59.870 --> 21:01.490]  Anyway, the program is off the hook.
[21:01.490 --> 21:02.630]  We're here tonight.
[21:03.410 --> 21:05.810]  We're winding down a special three-hour show.
[21:06.250 --> 21:07.650]  We've got Isaac over there.
[21:07.790 --> 21:10.690]  We have Laszlo from commercial radio over here.
[21:11.570 --> 21:13.950]  And have on the phone Bernie S.
[21:13.990 --> 21:14.570]  You still there, Bernie?
[21:14.950 --> 21:15.950]  I'm still here in Philadelphia.
[21:16.250 --> 21:22.990]  And joining us now from Michigan is Daniel Morgan, who is president of Morgan Aerospace Incorporated.
[21:23.070 --> 21:23.630]  Is that correct, Dan?
[21:23.790 --> 21:23.970]  Yes.
[21:24.090 --> 21:24.630]  Good evening, everyone.
[21:24.770 --> 21:26.030]  Can you speak up a bit more?
[21:26.290 --> 21:26.510]  Yes.
[21:26.630 --> 21:27.090]  How was that?
[21:27.090 --> 21:27.570]  Is that better?
[21:27.690 --> 21:29.290]  Ah, still very low.
[21:30.010 --> 21:30.310]  Okay.
[21:30.590 --> 21:31.730]  I'll try to get you some more audio.
[21:31.870 --> 21:32.350]  Hold on one second.
[21:32.390 --> 21:32.950]  Yeah, please.
[21:33.530 --> 21:36.210]  Sound like you're calling from a distant planet.
[21:36.550 --> 21:36.650]  Ah.
[21:37.130 --> 21:37.670]  How was that?
[21:37.730 --> 21:38.350]  Much better.
[21:38.410 --> 21:38.590]  Whoa.
[21:38.830 --> 21:39.110]  Ow!
[21:39.250 --> 21:40.850]  Except for those horrible noises.
[21:40.850 --> 21:41.890]  It's just great.
[21:42.490 --> 21:44.170]  Except for the ear-piercing feedback.
[21:44.450 --> 21:44.650]  Yeah.
[21:44.830 --> 21:45.230]  Okay.
[21:45.590 --> 21:45.890]  All right.
[21:45.970 --> 21:47.390]  I think we're okay now.
[21:47.730 --> 21:50.390]  Now, Daniel, you publish a newsletter called Satellite Watch News.
[21:50.430 --> 21:50.890]  Is that correct?
[21:51.050 --> 21:51.430]  Yes, I do.
[21:52.230 --> 21:59.090]  And recently, you've, well, recently, within the last year or so, you seem to have ruffled some feathers.
[21:59.330 --> 22:05.810]  We're used to ruffling feathers around here, but in your case, you ruffled feathers of someone who decided to go out and sue you for what you did.
[22:05.870 --> 22:08.070]  Do you want to give us an outline of what this is all about?
[22:08.070 --> 22:08.530]  Okay.
[22:08.830 --> 22:16.010]  Basically, what we do is we publish a magazine monthly entitled The Satellite Watch News.
[22:16.390 --> 22:30.470]  The Satellite Watch News publishes the untold reality about an industry that likes to pretty much keep total control over what it does and what actually goes on.
[22:30.470 --> 22:41.870]  And, unfortunately, for the people who are programming, sending signals to the satellite, their encryption system was real vulnerable and it was hacked.
[22:42.670 --> 22:57.610]  Reporting the honest truth about this industry, we ended up in a lawsuit in federal court with DirecTV being the plaintiff and suing us, trying to force us to cease and desist our publication.
[22:59.030 --> 23:00.530]  Now, when did this take place?
[23:01.110 --> 23:07.710]  The suit was filed back, oh geez, it was, let's see here, June of, excuse me, July of 98.
[23:08.630 --> 23:18.830]  And prior to that, they had sent us a cease and desist letter and threatening us with all sorts of litigation if we just didn't go away and we refused to go away because of the Constitution.
[23:19.750 --> 23:23.350]  That entitles us to print material like this.
[23:23.490 --> 23:24.570]  Yeah, that little piece of paper.
[23:25.210 --> 23:29.310]  That little piece of paper that, you know, came out 1770-something, yeah.
[23:29.510 --> 23:29.690]  Yeah.
[23:30.570 --> 23:52.350]  You know, it really seems in the publishing industry that more and more publications are being challenged on a daily basis and that the Constitution, I mean, the Constitution that's been around for, what now, a hundred years or so, really isn't worth the paper it was written on people who can file lawsuits against you and try to terminate,
[23:52.610 --> 23:55.150]  literally make you extinct, take away your existence.
[23:56.030 --> 24:12.190]  Now, you basically published something about, you basically published something about how to defeat a system, how to, or how a system was defeated by somebody, somewhere, how it was vulnerable.
[24:12.190 --> 24:22.510]  Very much the same kind of thing we do at 2600, except it had to do with a commercial entity that sends satellite signals to people, and those people are supposed to pay for those signals.
[24:22.630 --> 24:24.490]  Now, what was the hack?
[24:24.590 --> 24:29.570]  Someone figured out a way to get around the little card they stick in the machine?
[24:29.570 --> 24:30.270]  Exactly.
[24:30.810 --> 24:37.190]  Basically, the encryption system is based on a smart card, if you will.
[24:37.870 --> 24:48.190]  And what happened is a group of guys got together, and like many smart cards, I'm sure you guys are pretty familiar with smart cards, they interrogated it.
[24:50.090 --> 24:59.410]  They basically wanted to find out how it worked, what was required to compromise a system, if in fact it could be compromised.
[25:00.050 --> 25:17.590]  And a bunch of engineers got together, and they worked day and night, and they found the loopholes in the encryption system, and were able to make it basically come up in plug and play type situation, plug it in the way it went.
[25:17.770 --> 25:25.870]  And people who were operating direct TV systems purchased one of these and actually had all the programming for one fee.
[25:26.950 --> 25:42.910]  The programmer became aware of this several months after it happened, through our publication by the way, and started doing countermeasures only after they purchased one of these devices from one of the people who sell them.
[25:43.410 --> 25:45.570]  They're basically supplied out of Canada.
[25:45.970 --> 25:49.050]  This type of hacking is legal in Canada, Canada.
[25:50.350 --> 25:53.290]  And they don't condone it here in the United States.
[25:53.410 --> 25:56.370]  However, product apparently does end up here.
[25:57.110 --> 26:02.710]  And direct TV found us to be, I guess you might say, too good of a source.
[26:03.010 --> 26:10.750]  They, you know, we must do well at what we do if they're suing us for basically writing about their magazine.
[26:10.910 --> 26:14.490]  Of course, the allegations in the suit go far beyond just publishing a magazine.
[26:14.490 --> 26:16.650]  They accuse us of many things.
[26:16.910 --> 26:21.930]  But, you know, I guess the only way you get sued nowadays is if you're doing something and doing it well.
[26:22.190 --> 26:24.270]  Well, you certainly seem to get a reaction that way.
[26:24.410 --> 26:32.290]  Now, if I understand correctly, the people who are hacking this system aren't actually... they're not breaking into a computer system.
[26:32.430 --> 26:34.150]  They're not dialing into something remotely.
[26:35.030 --> 26:37.590]  They're taking something in their homes.
[26:37.590 --> 26:43.430]  They're taking a piece of equipment that they assume they bought, a receiver of some sort.
[26:43.550 --> 26:51.490]  They're taking a card, which they've also bought, and they're figuring out a way to make that card react in a different way.
[26:51.630 --> 26:52.190]  That's correct.
[26:52.350 --> 26:55.590]  And these signals are being beamed into their home.
[26:56.450 --> 26:58.970]  They did not ask for these signals to be beamed into their home.
[26:59.310 --> 27:01.770]  They're coming in because they're coming into everyone's home.
[27:02.330 --> 27:10.830]  And what they're saying, what they're alleging is that just doing this, or in your case, even talking about this, is illegal.
[27:10.990 --> 27:12.030]  It's taboo, yes.
[27:12.190 --> 27:14.330]  That's exactly what they're saying.
[27:14.570 --> 27:23.330]  And in my eyes and many other people's eyes, it's reporting on an industry that... basically the satellite industry has gotten corrupt.
[27:23.510 --> 27:25.590]  It's a very, very corrupt industry.
[27:26.550 --> 27:37.110]  There's so many players allowed, and those don't play by the rules, end up being in big trouble, including the people who publish magazines in this trade.
[27:38.250 --> 27:40.030]  They're trying to bully people.
[27:40.590 --> 27:44.910]  And I have taken the stance... I mean, I am not a rich man at all.
[27:45.170 --> 27:48.710]  But I've taken the stance, doggone it, there is a constitution.
[27:49.270 --> 27:50.790]  I do have a right to publish.
[27:50.790 --> 27:52.150]  I don't sell.
[27:52.330 --> 27:54.710]  They claim I have aided and abetted through my publication.
[27:54.930 --> 28:02.730]  All I'm doing is telling the truth about an industry that basically is... it's gone astray.
[28:03.070 --> 28:05.370]  It's... they don't want no one to know about it.
[28:05.530 --> 28:14.730]  And most of your bigger trade magazines that get large advertising from folks like DirecTV don't publish any of the untold stories.
[28:15.050 --> 28:17.430]  Well, you know, you seem to be coming back to a theme.
[28:17.610 --> 28:19.550]  And you weren't with us for the first part of the program.
[28:19.610 --> 28:27.790]  We were comparing commercial radio and non-commercial radio and how if someone sponsors you, all of a sudden you don't talk about certain things.
[28:27.910 --> 28:38.030]  So I imagine in those magazines, because they are sponsored in part by DirecTV, they don't talk about things that DirecTV might not like.
[28:38.030 --> 28:45.550]  Now, your magazine, Satellite Watch News, on the other hand, you're pretty much commercial-free as far as content.
[28:46.330 --> 28:46.610]  Exactly.
[28:46.730 --> 28:52.190]  You talk about the news of the satellite industry, which is exactly what the title says, Satellite Watch News.
[28:52.770 --> 28:54.190]  And I was reading it the other day.
[28:54.270 --> 28:56.130]  I actually met you at the Ham Fest.
[28:57.090 --> 28:58.550]  And I couldn't put it down.
[28:58.550 --> 29:00.330]  I was just reading all about satellites.
[29:00.450 --> 29:05.750]  But you know, the funny thing about it was that a lot of the information was about DirecTV and it wasn't negative information.
[29:05.950 --> 29:14.910]  It was talking about their channel expansions, their programming, things that, you know, they would normally pay to get this kind of information out.
[29:15.110 --> 29:22.930]  Emmanuel, I will say with that, we're probably the only fully unbiased publication in the entire industry.
[29:23.130 --> 29:25.110]  We tell it the way it is.
[29:25.390 --> 29:27.750]  And we report on all aspects of it.
[29:27.750 --> 29:32.790]  We're not...we've been classified as the hacker journal extraordinaire.
[29:32.930 --> 29:34.450]  We are not that.
[29:34.690 --> 29:37.730]  We tell the entire story about an industry.
[29:37.950 --> 29:47.790]  And if a system is being hacked in the satellite industry, that's as much satellite industry news as general instruments developing a new decoder for the industry.
[29:49.070 --> 30:01.970]  It's not our fault that NewsDatacom, the people who provided DirecTV with their encryption system, that they built basically a flawed device.
[30:01.970 --> 30:05.370]  If it was a good device, we wouldn't be writing about it in the way we do.
[30:05.610 --> 30:07.250]  It is not a good device.
[30:07.470 --> 30:14.830]  It was very vulnerable, and they could have used much better circumstances for security or much better encryption algorithms.
[30:15.430 --> 30:21.210]  The problem was that they used an encryption system that has, in fact, been hacked for years in Europe.
[30:21.610 --> 30:28.850]  Well, and it's also basically threatening one of the brightest revenue models of all time.
[30:29.070 --> 30:36.490]  People pay to have stuff to decode these signals to come into their house to watch channels that have commercials on them.
[30:38.310 --> 30:48.610]  Cable television and that whole industry amazes me because it's like, okay, you want me to pay $50 a month so that you can sell commercials to people and I watch them.
[30:49.390 --> 30:50.670]  Okay, that makes a lot of sense.
[30:51.550 --> 30:53.490]  Basically, this is just about watching TV.
[30:53.710 --> 31:01.230]  People want to watch television, so they try to figure out a way to get these programs, this information.
[31:01.230 --> 31:03.150]  Now, I get DirecTV.
[31:03.230 --> 31:03.930]  I like DirecTV.
[31:04.070 --> 31:06.970]  I think it's kind of cool to be able to get all these channels.
[31:06.970 --> 31:12.630]  I'm able to see BBC now and some Canadian stuff, and it just seems to be better than cable.
[31:12.750 --> 31:21.350]  But the weird thing is, if it's priced low enough, obviously, people will find it reasonable, and they'll pay for it, and everybody will be happy.
[31:21.370 --> 31:26.470]  But if it's priced too high, then that's when you start running into some difficulty.
[31:26.470 --> 31:34.710]  Now, the weird thing about DirecTV as opposed to cable, there is really very little expense that they have to put in.
[31:34.890 --> 31:37.470]  A cable TV company has to wire a neighborhood.
[31:37.710 --> 31:39.510]  They have to provide you with a box.
[31:39.530 --> 31:41.350]  They have to make sure the wire comes to your house.
[31:41.350 --> 31:43.470]  They have to fix things if they go wrong.
[31:43.850 --> 31:46.550]  And they charge a price based on all of that.
[31:46.610 --> 31:48.930]  Now, let's look at what DirecTV has to do.
[31:49.010 --> 31:50.090]  They have a satellite up there.
[31:50.170 --> 31:52.310]  Okay, it probably cost them something to put that satellite up there.
[31:52.310 --> 31:55.230]  But now that it's up there, they're beaming down a signal.
[31:55.630 --> 32:00.950]  If 100 people get one of their stations, then they charge people a certain amount of money.
[32:01.130 --> 32:06.070]  If 1,000 people get their stations, they charge the same to all those 1,000 people.
[32:06.250 --> 32:08.030]  10,000, 100,000, however many people.
[32:08.170 --> 32:11.750]  Every time more people are added, they just make more money.
[32:11.870 --> 32:13.090]  There's no more investment for them.
[32:13.190 --> 32:16.710]  They don't have to make more boxes because you buy the equipment.
[32:16.750 --> 32:19.210]  They don't have to wire neighborhoods because it's coming through the air.
[32:19.770 --> 32:24.990]  So I think that's rubbing people the wrong way because, obviously, something should be happening.
[32:24.990 --> 32:29.690]  If the service is becoming increasingly popular, then the rates should be going down, shouldn't they?
[32:29.890 --> 32:31.170]  You would think so.
[32:31.350 --> 32:46.750]  The most ironic situation here is, in the litigation, I don't know if you had time to read the entire lawsuit, but in the litigation, they claim that we are, through our publication, we've caused them great harm.
[32:47.310 --> 33:06.440]  The actual ratio, and I've compared this with other people who are definitely involved in providing these compromised cards, our advertisers, they figure the actual ratio is 25,000 people actively using these things.
[33:07.140 --> 33:07.760]  Mm-hmm.
[33:08.180 --> 33:11.580]  Direct TV has over 5 million subscribers.
[33:12.000 --> 33:12.140]  Wow.
[33:13.300 --> 33:16.740]  So the actual damages are very minimal.
[33:17.080 --> 33:19.300]  However, they claim there is many, many more.
[33:19.400 --> 33:25.900]  In the other trade pubs, they write that there's upwards of a million to 2 million people using these cards, and that is not true at all.
[33:26.260 --> 33:33.660]  But anyway, the big thing is here is they're lambasting us for doing what is legally allowed in this country, and that's publishing a magazine.
[33:34.180 --> 33:55.100]  Also, on one of the pages of the lawsuit, they're accusing you of advertising, promoting, and arranging the sale and use of counterfeit DSS access cards and other illegal signal theft devices through, and this is the interesting part, through your distribution and sale of Satellite Watch News and Pirate Video 9,
[33:55.280 --> 33:56.240]  which is a videotape.
[33:56.400 --> 33:57.380]  Now, that's interesting.
[33:57.640 --> 34:07.860]  They're not, in this particular part anyway, they're not saying that you're selling the cards, but by putting out your magazine and having a video, you are responsible for what's going on.
[34:08.000 --> 34:10.700]  Now, that's a really scary leap of logic right there.
[34:10.700 --> 34:11.340]  Yes, it is.
[34:11.740 --> 34:13.260]  It's very frightening.
[34:15.960 --> 34:17.900]  It doesn't make sense to me at all.
[34:18.560 --> 34:24.180]  Our attorneys are having real, real problems trying to make sense out of this.
[34:24.300 --> 34:31.480]  However, I guess in this country, anyone who wishes to sue someone can do it just by merely filing a lawsuit.
[34:32.000 --> 34:39.880]  Proving this frivolous, and I think we both know just by looking at it that it is basically a very frivolous lawsuit.
[34:39.880 --> 34:42.440]  There were no criminal charges filed, is that right?
[34:42.580 --> 34:42.840]  No.
[34:43.020 --> 34:45.380]  No, there was no criminal charges filed at all.
[34:45.540 --> 34:46.860]  So they're seeking monetary damages?
[34:47.060 --> 34:48.960]  In the criminal court, there would be no case against you.
[34:49.200 --> 34:50.000]  That's correct.
[34:50.620 --> 34:51.180]  That's correct.
[34:51.400 --> 34:58.900]  The federal prosecutor has not, from what I understand, has not even looked at any part of this and really cares not to.
[34:58.900 --> 35:01.640]  One thing I might mention that might be of interest.
[35:01.900 --> 35:08.600]  Years back, prior to DirecTV, five years ago, there's the big dish that was compromised.
[35:09.120 --> 35:13.720]  The encryption system there that was used was called VideoCypher.
[35:13.840 --> 35:16.560]  I don't know if you guys know anything about that.
[35:16.560 --> 35:25.100]  But the neat thing is, is General Instruments, the people who provided that security, never challenged this magazine whatsoever.
[35:25.520 --> 35:35.540]  As a matter of fact, their head security officer, Jim Shelton, actually looked forward to each and every publication as a means to go after the actual people who were selling this stuff.
[35:36.140 --> 35:39.020]  So we were never challenged by General Instruments at all.
[35:40.460 --> 35:43.340]  DirecTV is the one that took the first step in challenging the publication.
[35:44.340 --> 35:48.280]  They also say, and this is kind of interesting too, they refer to the videotape.
[35:48.380 --> 35:55.440]  And they say that Pirate Video 9 includes clips and footage from a number of copyrighted motion pictures and other protected programming.
[35:55.660 --> 36:03.280]  As the programming appeared on the DirecTV's digital satellite system, the videotape also displays the DSS logo on DirecTV's programming menus.
[36:03.560 --> 36:07.960]  And that your reproduction is without authorization or consent.
[36:08.160 --> 36:11.040]  As if changing a channel, which is literally what it is.
[36:11.040 --> 36:12.400]  I watched the video earlier today.
[36:13.260 --> 36:14.540]  Changing a channel...
[36:14.540 --> 36:20.160]  You're violating a copyright by showing how a channel gets changed and flashing the program as it goes by.
[36:20.360 --> 36:24.820]  We've done that under the Fair Use Act, 60 seconds or less.
[36:25.640 --> 36:27.660]  This was one second or less.
[36:27.720 --> 36:28.180]  Yes, right.
[36:28.380 --> 36:30.160]  But we've done that under the Fair Use Act.
[36:30.160 --> 36:41.140]  And of course, if you noticed at the end of the videotape, DirecTV was given credit in the credit that they rolled for the actual video.
[36:41.420 --> 36:41.640]  Uh-huh.
[36:41.780 --> 36:44.260]  Are they charging you with any kind of copyright violation?
[36:44.500 --> 36:44.980]  Oh, yes.
[36:45.160 --> 36:45.660]  Yes, definitely.
[36:46.440 --> 36:48.560]  I guess that's part of it, showing their logo.
[36:48.840 --> 36:49.100]  Yeah.
[36:49.100 --> 36:57.780]  And, like, reading images from their screen on your video, constitutes in their minds a copyright violation?
[36:57.920 --> 36:58.200]  Yes.
[37:00.180 --> 37:01.660]  That's pretty scary.
[37:02.000 --> 37:05.160]  So, now, this is a civil suit filed by DirecTV.
[37:05.160 --> 37:08.340]  It's not a legal suit, at least.
[37:08.580 --> 37:12.120]  Yes, it's just a civil suit filed in federal court, basically.
[37:12.120 --> 37:14.680]  And what are they asking for as far as damages?
[37:15.140 --> 37:20.080]  Well, basically, the damages they're asking for are under the actual federal statutes.
[37:20.380 --> 37:29.620]  If I were charged criminally by a federal prosecutor, it would be the same awards under those sections of the U.S.C.
[37:29.800 --> 37:36.620]  that could be judged against me in an actual federal criminal suit.
[37:36.620 --> 37:43.680]  So, that's what they're asking for in damages, which could end up being multiples of millions of dollars should they succeed and win.
[37:43.900 --> 37:47.920]  And even if they don't succeed, how much have you already had to worry about as far as...
[37:47.920 --> 37:51.740]  We're looking at $300,000, and so far today, we've spent about $50,000.
[37:52.340 --> 37:56.280]  Have you considered a countersuit to make up for the losses in legal fees?
[37:56.440 --> 38:03.560]  There is very large considerations right now going on between myself and legal counsel as the next step to take.
[38:03.560 --> 38:13.660]  And there may very well possibly, sooner or later, be an antitrust suit filed based on some information that we've just learned about DirecTV.
[38:13.880 --> 38:14.540]  That'll be interesting.
[38:14.700 --> 38:16.100]  Have you contacted the ACLU?
[38:17.700 --> 38:21.300]  Yes, and talked briefly, and nobody has returned any of our calls.
[38:21.420 --> 38:22.780]  Well, that's the ACLU we know, too.
[38:23.620 --> 38:25.000]  They tend not to do that.
[38:25.400 --> 38:26.600]  I'm very familiar with that, unfortunately.
[38:26.600 --> 38:30.260]  We've mentioned EFF, but evidently that's about the same response they're going to get.
[38:30.380 --> 38:31.900]  I don't think they're going to care about satellites anyway.
[38:33.380 --> 38:36.260]  But I imagine you've talked about this pretty openly in your magazine.
[38:36.440 --> 38:37.080]  Oh, yes, I have.
[38:37.220 --> 38:38.620]  How has the response been to that?
[38:39.260 --> 38:41.640]  We are getting some legal contributions.
[38:42.060 --> 38:43.900]  They're not substantial enough.
[38:44.600 --> 38:46.720]  I mean, it's a struggling battle.
[38:46.720 --> 38:51.280]  Let's face it, we're having trouble raising all the necessary money that we're going to need.
[38:51.480 --> 38:55.940]  Our attorneys tell us it could be upwards of $300,000 just to get it to jury trial.
[38:55.940 --> 39:00.100]  If we do get it to that point, I feel very confident that we will win.
[39:00.760 --> 39:02.500]  But it's a matter of getting it there.
[39:02.500 --> 39:08.880]  You know, it's really disturbing to me, especially because I'm involved in this kind of thing on a daily basis involving computer hackers.
[39:09.040 --> 39:19.020]  But for someone to sit there and tell me that I am not allowed to take a card in my own house and try and figure out how it works in a machine.
[39:19.020 --> 39:23.100]  First of all, as I said, I already subscribe to the system.
[39:23.400 --> 39:24.340]  I already pay for it.
[39:24.980 --> 39:29.480]  How is it illegal for me to try and figure out how it works?
[39:29.640 --> 39:34.840]  I mean, what are they going to charge me with if I figure out how it works since I'm already paying for it in the first place?
[39:34.840 --> 39:37.120]  How can they twist people's brains like this?
[39:38.400 --> 39:39.280]  It's ludicrous.
[39:39.280 --> 40:12.740]  According to the USC's B47605, in this country, it is illegal to own or possess a device that allows you to compromise satellite television programming based only on transmission from a program provider to a cable provider that sells, resells the signal to an end user,
[40:12.860 --> 40:15.360]  which would be, of course, the cable homeowner.
[40:17.280 --> 40:24.000]  There's not really a great deal in that section that covers direct-to-home broadcasting.
[40:25.090 --> 40:33.920]  So this very well, this lawsuit very well could open up a whole new avenue for legalized television hacking in the United States.
[40:34.500 --> 40:36.100]  The case has to be tested.
[40:36.720 --> 40:45.280]  I imagine the legislative history on the existing law pertains to pre-DBS, is that right?
[40:46.120 --> 40:47.860]  Yeah, that's pre-DBS.
[40:47.980 --> 40:48.740]  It's all pre-DBS, yes.
[40:49.000 --> 40:53.240]  Bernie, I have to tell you, you're coming in extremely low, so our listeners aren't able to hear you, unfortunately.
[40:53.980 --> 40:54.840]  Oh, how about now?
[40:55.780 --> 40:56.860]  I think it's our fault.
[40:56.920 --> 40:57.640]  I don't think it's your fault.
[40:57.640 --> 40:59.900]  So even if you scream, I think it might be a problem.
[41:00.020 --> 41:03.360]  But if something really important comes up, scream as loud as you can.
[41:03.900 --> 41:05.340]  I can hear Bernie fine on the side.
[41:05.380 --> 41:06.540]  Yeah, that's what I was afraid of.
[41:06.540 --> 41:09.400]  You can hear him, but the rest of us can't, unfortunately.
[41:10.460 --> 41:18.720]  So now, where it stands now is that you're being sued by DirecTV for printing articles and for putting out a videotape.
[41:19.700 --> 41:23.080]  And what's the next court date, I guess?
[41:23.240 --> 41:25.040]  Well, right now, we're in depositions.
[41:25.280 --> 41:26.440]  We have to get through that.
[41:26.620 --> 41:30.840]  Of course, they're subpoenaing everything right down to my Visa and MasterCard records there.
[41:30.840 --> 41:31.480]  Oh, jeez.
[41:31.580 --> 41:35.320]  They have subpoenaed my bank statements, my cellular phone calls.
[41:35.740 --> 41:41.200]  They have been up and down, one side and down the other.
[41:42.620 --> 41:44.600]  Right now, we need to get through the depositions.
[41:45.740 --> 41:50.480]  The actual court date is set sometimes towards the end of the year.
[41:50.980 --> 41:57.000]  So, basically, this is, even if it's proven to be completely without merit, it's tying you up in court.
[41:57.080 --> 41:59.100]  It must be hurting the magazine.
[41:59.440 --> 41:59.900]  Yes, it is.
[42:00.060 --> 42:01.800]  It's damaging us very badly.
[42:02.060 --> 42:07.680]  It's taking our needed financial resources to continue on.
[42:07.840 --> 42:14.020]  And so far, we've been able to do that with the little support that we've had, but we need a lot more support.
[42:14.700 --> 42:16.580]  Tell us something about Satellite Watch News.
[42:16.860 --> 42:20.360]  Well, again, Satellite Watch News is a publication that's published monthly.
[42:20.520 --> 42:21.540]  There's 12 issues a year.
[42:23.480 --> 42:24.880]  It's totally unbiased.
[42:25.020 --> 42:28.940]  It reports the truth, the honest facts about what's going on in the industry.
[42:31.220 --> 42:39.160]  If you want to know what's happening again with DSS, how it's being hacked, when it does happen, that information's in there.
[42:40.320 --> 42:44.300]  If DirecTV is going to be having a big prize fight, they're going to be doing a system upgrade.
[42:44.480 --> 42:45.060]  It's in there.
[42:45.060 --> 42:55.100]  All the information that you need to know about an industry that is basically a very big part of America entertainment is in this publication.
[42:55.360 --> 42:56.580]  And how long have you been coming out?
[42:56.840 --> 42:57.440]  Ten years.
[42:57.680 --> 42:58.240]  Ten years.
[42:58.240 --> 43:06.660]  So your audience is from the casual user, or rather the casual viewer, all the way up to the gentleman who's interested in all of the technical aspects?
[43:07.280 --> 43:08.200]  Exactly, yes.
[43:08.520 --> 43:08.880]  Excellent.
[43:09.200 --> 43:22.020]  It's interesting because, like I said before, when I was at the Hamvention, I was reading the magazine, and I could only see this as a good thing for the people running these services because it spreads information.
[43:22.020 --> 43:29.720]  But at the same time, it spreads education as well, and how the technology actually works.
[43:29.880 --> 43:31.160]  And people should be interested in this.
[43:31.200 --> 43:36.860]  They shouldn't just be, you know, consumers who just simply subscribe and never ask any questions.
[43:37.320 --> 43:38.340]  It's more than that.
[43:38.600 --> 43:40.180]  Don't you want to know how the technology works?
[43:40.260 --> 43:41.380]  Don't you want to know what the weak points are?
[43:41.620 --> 43:46.220]  And doesn't DirecTV benefit from learning where the weak points are as well?
[43:46.320 --> 43:48.020]  Imagine if there wasn't a magazine to say this.
[43:48.100 --> 43:49.700]  Imagine if it was all done secretly.
[43:50.420 --> 43:53.700]  You know, there's two ways of looking at everything.
[43:53.960 --> 43:59.440]  You know, again, I was talking earlier about General Instruments during the CBAN, the big dish days, the big 10-foot dishes.
[43:59.620 --> 43:59.820]  Right.
[43:59.960 --> 44:02.080]  Most people call buds the big ugly dish.
[44:02.480 --> 44:09.700]  Anyway, the neat thing about that is General Instruments Corporation, now these folks are very large into the cable and satellite encryption.
[44:10.940 --> 44:15.600]  They learned how to build a better box from our publication.
[44:15.920 --> 44:17.220]  And they finally did.
[44:18.120 --> 44:20.620]  And it, to this day, has not been hacked.
[44:21.580 --> 44:21.880]  Interesting.
[44:22.340 --> 44:22.540]  Yes.
[44:22.640 --> 44:27.200]  Well, do you think people will just stop trying or do you think, you know, they're still trying to figure it out?
[44:27.200 --> 44:39.300]  Well, I think people found a better avenue, a quicker money-making avenue as far as the people who resell the hacking products in direct TVs.
[44:41.360 --> 44:46.720]  But I think General Instruments finally built the ultimate, go ahead and try to break it if you can, Vox.
[44:46.820 --> 44:48.120]  And it's been very difficult.
[44:48.760 --> 44:53.160]  Maybe they're trying to recoup the money from all these satellites that have been exploding into bits.
[44:53.880 --> 44:56.600]  In the last year, I mean, like, four rockets blown up or something.
[44:56.780 --> 44:59.360]  Yeah, Titan IVs have been going boom.
[44:59.560 --> 45:00.740]  I'm surprised they don't blame you for that.
[45:01.240 --> 45:03.600]  Well, that very well could happen one day.
[45:04.520 --> 45:05.400]  Oh, my goodness.
[45:05.520 --> 45:06.260]  It was incredible.
[45:06.380 --> 45:09.760]  Did you guys get to see the Chinese long mark go up when they were going to launch Echo Star 1?
[45:09.980 --> 45:10.340]  No.
[45:10.760 --> 45:12.160]  It left a pad in China.
[45:12.800 --> 45:17.300]  It took off, got up about 500 feet, made a U-turn, and took out a village.
[45:17.500 --> 45:17.840]  Oh, yeah.
[45:17.920 --> 45:19.060]  I did see that on CNN.
[45:19.240 --> 45:19.940]  I did see that.
[45:20.100 --> 45:21.340]  Yeah, it was pretty incredible.
[45:21.340 --> 45:25.000]  I guess they won't be watching TV for a while down there.
[45:25.620 --> 45:29.700]  Oh, we're speaking with Daniel Morgan, who is the publisher of Satellite Watch News.
[45:29.760 --> 45:35.700]  And we're in the tail end of our special off-the-hook program for tonight, and we have...
[45:35.700 --> 45:36.180]  She didn't mention the phone number.
[45:36.340 --> 45:41.540]  Yeah, well, I'm about to do that because we're about to mention a special offer that people should know about involving just this.
[45:41.880 --> 45:42.440]  That's right.
[45:42.480 --> 45:43.880]  You can become part of the controversy.
[45:43.880 --> 45:58.480]  You can learn things that they don't want you to learn about by calling us, 212-209-2950, and pledging $75, you will get a year, a year subscription to Satellite Watch News.
[45:59.340 --> 46:08.280]  Not only that, not only that, a year of Satellite Watch News and the videotape that was mentioned in the indictment.
[46:08.360 --> 46:12.840]  The videotape that in itself is a crime, according to these people.
[46:13.500 --> 46:20.300]  A videotape that shows you how the technology works, what it's all about, and they don't want you to know about this.
[46:20.300 --> 46:24.960]  So you get a year's worth of Satellite Watch News, that's 12 issues.
[46:25.280 --> 46:28.420]  You get the videotape, and we even throw in a 2600 t-shirt.
[46:28.620 --> 46:32.460]  So that's quite a lot of stuff there for a mere $75 pledge.
[46:32.600 --> 46:33.560]  And we're in the homestretch.
[46:33.660 --> 46:34.740]  And what's that number, Emmanuel?
[46:35.920 --> 46:37.780]  212-209-2950.
[46:38.220 --> 46:39.340]  And again, consider this.
[46:39.500 --> 46:40.060]  Consider this.
[46:40.080 --> 46:45.440]  We're a non-commercial station here in New York City, broadcasting to the world through the internet and over the FM radio waves.
[46:46.060 --> 46:48.680]  How many other places have you heard this talked about?
[46:49.040 --> 46:49.760]  Not very many.
[46:49.940 --> 46:50.380]  Why?
[46:50.660 --> 46:56.360]  Because DirecTV sponsors these radio programs on other radio stations.
[46:56.560 --> 46:58.020]  They sponsor the entire station.
[46:58.600 --> 47:05.320]  I actually did a rant on Gateway, and radio stations wouldn't run it because Gateway advertises on that station.
[47:05.520 --> 47:06.160]  Can you believe that?
[47:06.660 --> 47:07.620]  I went mental.
[47:08.040 --> 47:08.680]  It's ridiculous.
[47:08.940 --> 47:09.080]  Yeah.
[47:09.260 --> 47:10.340]  They have total control.
[47:10.340 --> 47:17.360]  I cannot say that my Gateway laptop died five times and had to get shipped back to the North Pole or wherever those guys are.
[47:17.460 --> 47:18.280]  In the Happy Cow box?
[47:18.440 --> 47:18.840]  Right.
[47:18.840 --> 47:23.780]  I could not talk about that on the radio because, you know, Gateway spent some money on the station.
[47:23.840 --> 47:24.580]  But you know what, Laszlo?
[47:24.800 --> 47:27.220]  You're talking about it here on this radio station.
[47:27.220 --> 47:30.940]  You're able to come here and talk about how bad your Gateway is.
[47:32.280 --> 47:33.520]  What else do you want to get off your chest?
[47:33.640 --> 47:35.320]  No, some stations ran it.
[47:35.360 --> 47:36.200]  There was only two or three.
[47:36.320 --> 47:37.980]  There was actually one in New York that refused to run it.
[47:38.120 --> 47:38.460]  Really?
[47:38.460 --> 47:38.740]  Yeah.
[47:39.280 --> 47:39.860]  How do you like that?
[47:39.920 --> 47:40.600]  Right here in New York.
[47:40.720 --> 47:42.040]  The enlightened capital of the world.
[47:42.200 --> 47:42.220]  Right.
[47:42.220 --> 47:46.300]  And we censor our radio station because the sponsors don't want it to be said.
[47:46.460 --> 47:46.560]  Right.
[47:46.700 --> 47:50.440]  Stations in Nebraska ran it, but here in New York City...
[47:50.440 --> 47:50.800]  Wow.
[47:50.960 --> 47:52.800]  So, this is what we're offering you here.
[47:52.900 --> 48:06.020]  And by calling us, you're voicing support for the radio station for Freedom of Speech so that we can have more people like Daniel Morgan join us and tell their tales of woe as the big corporations strike out against the individuals.
[48:06.020 --> 48:08.720]  The number is 212-209-2950.
[48:08.980 --> 48:14.220]  Again, $75 pledge for the one-year subscription to Satellite Watch News, the videotape, and a T-shirt.
[48:14.360 --> 48:18.580]  Again, we still have those other packages available, the mega package.
[48:18.940 --> 48:24.240]  Every last issue of 2600 Magazine ever published from 1984 on to the present.
[48:24.960 --> 48:25.540]  And also...
[48:25.540 --> 48:26.980]  That's enough to get you indicted.
[48:26.980 --> 48:29.480]  Yeah, you're talking about incriminating material.
[48:29.640 --> 48:32.660]  They find that in your next grade and you're out.
[48:32.860 --> 48:36.420]  That's for a pledge of $250, plus you get the obligatory T-shirt with that.
[48:36.540 --> 48:47.720]  Or if you want to listen to our happy voices for the last 10 years or so, pick up the 4-CD ROM set of every episode of Off the Hook from 1988 to 1997.
[48:48.600 --> 48:50.660]  And also, again, your T-shirt comes with that.
[48:51.240 --> 48:52.900]  I pity that people don't like T-shirts.
[48:54.220 --> 48:54.580]  That's...
[48:54.580 --> 48:55.380]  You're getting one.
[48:55.520 --> 48:56.960]  That's for a pledge amount of $150.
[48:57.380 --> 49:03.600]  But please, the important thing, the numbers 250, 150, 75, they don't matter as much as 212-209-2950.
[49:04.020 --> 49:04.740]  Call that number.
[49:04.800 --> 49:05.940]  They have all the information there.
[49:06.080 --> 49:07.200]  Ask them whatever questions you have.
[49:07.280 --> 49:12.020]  Maybe there's something else that we have at BAI that you prefer that's not related to Off the Hook.
[49:12.120 --> 49:13.260]  We have so many different things.
[49:13.380 --> 49:14.720]  We have so many different programmers here.
[49:14.720 --> 49:20.780]  The most important thing is for you to contribute something so you can show your support, so we can make that number grow.
[49:20.860 --> 49:21.760]  Remember, we started...
[49:21.760 --> 49:27.840]  We did the interview with the B92 person, live from Belgrade, Yugoslavia.
[49:28.640 --> 49:34.680]  And after we finished that interview, the number on our tally screen, this was about 8 o'clock at night.
[49:34.780 --> 49:35.680]  The number was zero.
[49:36.100 --> 49:38.940]  It was zero because we hadn't asked for money, obviously.
[49:39.060 --> 49:40.100]  We hadn't asked during the first hour.
[49:40.240 --> 49:42.080]  We just talked to somebody in Yugoslavia.
[49:42.240 --> 49:42.640]  Oh, we mentioned it casually.
[49:42.820 --> 49:43.880]  We mentioned it very casually.
[49:44.440 --> 49:46.520]  After that, the calls started flying in.
[49:46.720 --> 49:48.120]  The calls really started flying in.
[49:48.180 --> 49:50.980]  And right now, we are at $4,585.
[49:51.540 --> 49:56.500]  So that shows the power of individuals who join forces.
[49:56.920 --> 50:00.480]  Who join forces and show their support for a radio station.
[50:00.660 --> 50:02.820]  Remember, we don't have commercials here, but we have you.
[50:03.900 --> 50:09.420]  And that is just so much more preferable because that way we can give you what you want.
[50:09.540 --> 50:12.900]  Not what Wall Street wants, even though we're right here on Wall Street.
[50:12.900 --> 50:13.340]  On Wall Street, yes.
[50:13.480 --> 50:15.120]  It's kind of ironic what our address is.
[50:15.120 --> 50:22.820]  And when you give money to it, I mean, I know when I give money to stations, you feel like you're part of a club, you know, like you've contributed, like you've helped it out.
[50:23.080 --> 50:35.920]  And it's something to feel proud about, you know, that you're supporting the cause and something that the community needs and appreciates instead of just, you know, going through the drive-through.
[50:35.920 --> 50:37.960]  Yeah, it is something you feel proud about.
[50:38.040 --> 50:40.020]  I've given money to radio stations before.
[50:40.300 --> 50:46.860]  The one time I regretted it was when I gave money to my local PBS station because they wouldn't stop calling me afterwards wanting me to do it again.
[50:47.440 --> 50:50.480]  For ten years after I did that, I was getting postcards.
[50:50.600 --> 50:55.440]  And they must have spent every last penny I gave them just to mail me junk over the last ten years.
[50:55.860 --> 50:57.880]  But regardless, we don't do that kind of thing.
[50:57.900 --> 51:01.220]  We don't have these mass mailing businesses going on.
[51:01.920 --> 51:04.920]  But when you do something like that, you do feel really good afterwards.
[51:04.920 --> 51:12.920]  When you participate in a demonstration of something you believe in, you feel really good after you did something because you're showing your true feelings.
[51:12.920 --> 51:14.520]  You're participating in a cause.
[51:14.640 --> 51:15.860]  You're adding something to it.
[51:16.680 --> 51:24.520]  Now, Daniel, you've been pretty intimidated by all these high-priced lawyers that want you to buckle in.
[51:24.660 --> 51:25.800]  What is it that keeps you going?
[51:26.620 --> 51:33.540]  I guess after spending three and a half years in Southeast Asia, it's all worth it in the end.
[51:33.540 --> 51:34.900]  I mean, I believe in the Constitution.
[51:35.880 --> 51:40.460]  There's not many of us left, Emmanuel, that will stand up and say, hey, wait a minute, you might be General Motors.
[51:40.640 --> 51:42.180]  Which DirecTV is, by the way.
[51:42.360 --> 51:42.800]  That's right.
[51:42.960 --> 51:44.020]  General Motors use aerospace.
[51:44.420 --> 51:44.920]  That's right.
[51:45.240 --> 51:46.580]  You know, you forget about these things.
[51:46.680 --> 51:48.400]  You forget about what companies own what companies.
[51:48.880 --> 51:54.800]  But I think if you're doing an honest thing, and we are doing an honest thing, we're publishing a magazine, a mere magazine.
[51:55.400 --> 52:01.340]  We write about it, we have connections in the industry that basically no one else has.
[52:02.940 --> 52:04.280]  They tell us what happens.
[52:04.580 --> 52:06.700]  It's almost flattering to be considered a threat.
[52:07.980 --> 52:13.280]  It's almost incredible because, actually, where we're based folks, we are based in northern lower Michigan.
[52:13.740 --> 52:17.220]  The population in the town that we're in is 540.
[52:18.040 --> 52:22.280]  And our magazine is read by many people around the country.
[52:23.640 --> 52:31.720]  And the flattery, I guess, is when DirecTV said, hey, this guy must be good because he's got us very irritated, so we're going to sue him.
[52:31.720 --> 52:34.240]  Well, it's not like you're inciting violence or anything.
[52:34.440 --> 52:34.880]  I mean, basically...
[52:35.320 --> 52:35.940]  What happens?
[52:36.100 --> 52:38.660]  Some guy gets to watch WrestleMania for free, okay?
[52:39.020 --> 52:39.600]  That's it.
[52:40.140 --> 52:40.940]  WWF for free.
[52:41.140 --> 52:42.000]  I mean...
[52:42.000 --> 52:43.880]  We didn't even sell him the damn car.
[52:44.080 --> 52:44.340]  Right.
[52:45.960 --> 52:47.040]  That's pretty incredible.
[52:47.200 --> 52:50.440]  We just wrote about something that was happening in the industry.
[52:50.700 --> 52:53.340]  What people do with our information is up to them.
[52:53.460 --> 52:55.720]  We're not babysitters to the world.
[52:56.200 --> 52:57.560]  We publish a magazine.
[52:57.620 --> 52:59.200]  It's to inform people.
[52:59.200 --> 53:13.020]  You know, what's incredible here is that no matter what it is we're talking about, whether it's to someone trying to run a radio station in Yugoslavia, someone trying to get out of prison for being a computer hacker, or someone like you who publishes a newsletter,
[53:13.300 --> 53:20.500]  it all comes down to control of information, what people in high places don't want everybody else to know about.
[53:21.000 --> 53:31.000]  And so many times those are the people that wind up winning simply because they use fear and intimidation, whether it's soldiers, whether it's lawsuits, whether it's prisons, whatever.
[53:31.680 --> 53:33.480]  And that's what we have to stand up against.
[53:33.480 --> 53:35.420]  We have to show the power of the individual.
[53:35.900 --> 53:37.380]  Emmanuel, let me interject something here.
[53:38.000 --> 53:40.160]  Direct TV has filed several lawsuits.
[53:40.420 --> 53:46.780]  They've filed several lawsuits in Canada against the actual people who are distributing these products.
[53:48.000 --> 53:51.720]  But isn't Canada still a country that's not...
[53:51.720 --> 53:51.880]  Exactly.
[53:51.880 --> 54:01.620]  What happened is the Royal Canadian Mounted Police who conducted the search and seizures and the raids were bought off by Direct TV and American Corporation.
[54:01.880 --> 54:03.900]  They were literally bought off.
[54:04.620 --> 54:12.400]  Their dollars influenced the Canadian government enough that their government, the Canadian people's government, would turn against them.
[54:13.080 --> 54:15.680]  Now tell me, that is not scary.
[54:15.920 --> 54:17.440]  That is extremely scary.
[54:17.600 --> 54:22.300]  It seems like borders mean less and less these days when it comes to American corporations.
[54:22.660 --> 54:25.360]  The problem here is it's not even a matter of a treaty.
[54:26.000 --> 54:33.720]  It is an American corporation saying, hey, for X amount of dollars, we want you to go do this to this guy, this guy, and this guy.
[54:33.720 --> 54:34.140]  Mm-hmm.
[54:34.200 --> 54:34.860]  It's like a hit man.
[54:35.080 --> 54:36.080]  Yes, basically that's what it is.
[54:36.700 --> 54:37.080]  Definitely.
[54:37.500 --> 54:38.260]  They're doing the...
[54:38.260 --> 54:39.520]  And that is the most...
[54:39.520 --> 54:43.480]  To me, that is the most irritating thing in any country.
[54:44.000 --> 54:46.040]  To turn against one's people.
[54:46.320 --> 54:46.640]  That...
[54:46.640 --> 54:47.480]  Oh, my goodness.
[54:47.660 --> 54:48.820]  I mean...
[54:48.820 --> 54:51.620]  There's just not enough bad I can say about that.
[54:52.800 --> 54:54.040]  It's definitely disgusting.
[54:54.300 --> 54:54.520]  212.
[54:54.720 --> 54:56.060]  2-0-9-2-9-5-0.
[54:56.180 --> 55:00.040]  Please, these are the last few minutes of our fundraiser on this radio show.
[55:00.100 --> 55:02.420]  Obviously, the fundraiser is going to continue past that.
[55:02.420 --> 55:03.540]  And we won't be on next week.
[55:03.540 --> 55:05.980]  We'll be on in two weeks at our usual time, 8 p.m.
[55:06.220 --> 55:07.640]  But please, give us a call now.
[55:07.760 --> 55:08.960]  Let's get a final flurry.
[55:09.100 --> 55:11.000]  2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-5-0.
[55:11.080 --> 55:15.360]  We're speaking with Daniel Morgan, who is a publisher of Satellite Watch News.
[55:15.380 --> 55:24.700]  I see a lot of parallels between this and 2600, and a lot of the same fierce devotion to freedom of speech and the right of people to know something.
[55:25.140 --> 55:29.880]  So please, by giving us a phone call, you'll be getting a year of that newsletter.
[55:30.240 --> 55:31.880]  You'll see for yourself just what it's all about.
[55:31.880 --> 55:36.800]  You'll also get a copy of the videotape, which they also don't want you to see.
[55:36.920 --> 55:39.740]  They want that to be... I imagine they want you to destroy all copies of that.
[55:39.800 --> 55:40.120]  Is that right?
[55:40.460 --> 55:40.780]  Exactly.
[55:40.780 --> 55:41.240]  Wow.
[55:41.580 --> 55:41.940]  They...
[55:43.200 --> 55:43.560]  They...
[55:43.560 --> 55:51.240]  In the actual subpoenas that we received, and I believe somewhere in the lawsuit, I just don't happen to have it right in front of me right now.
[55:52.160 --> 55:52.880]  They wanted...
[55:52.880 --> 55:54.580]  No, actually, it was in the discovery.
[55:55.060 --> 55:57.160]  They wanted all the outtakes.
[55:57.460 --> 55:58.900]  There was no outtakes.
[55:59.820 --> 56:01.900]  We do video, we do it once, and that's it.
[56:02.120 --> 56:02.920]  And the thingy...
[56:02.920 --> 56:03.900]  They wanted all that stuff.
[56:04.440 --> 56:09.160]  They have subpoenaed all of our records, our bank statements, my e-mail.
[56:10.000 --> 56:11.220]  They want your e-mail.
[56:12.020 --> 56:15.700]  My ISP called me one day and says, Dan, what's going on?
[56:16.500 --> 56:17.900]  At least he knows you by the first name.
[56:18.180 --> 56:18.360]  Huh?
[56:18.580 --> 56:19.880]  At least he knows you by your first name.
[56:20.000 --> 56:20.260]  Oh, definitely.
[56:20.480 --> 56:31.140]  He says, we've got a subpoena here to turn over all of our archives of e-mail and all this other stuff, and, you know, they basically don't keep all that stuff.
[56:31.140 --> 56:32.760]  And he said, this is ridiculous.
[56:32.900 --> 56:33.760]  And I told him what was going on.
[56:34.700 --> 56:36.720]  He said, this is outrageous.
[56:36.800 --> 56:38.340]  He couldn't believe it.
[56:38.600 --> 56:39.940]  And I know this guy well.
[56:40.320 --> 56:43.160]  And he was very, very irritated with what was going on.
[56:43.300 --> 56:45.440]  And they turned over what they had.
[56:45.540 --> 56:49.640]  And my e-mail does not consist of much more than orders and a howdy-doody.
[56:49.860 --> 56:52.600]  So whatever they got, I hope they got a thrill out of it.
[56:53.580 --> 56:55.300]  212-209-2950.
[56:55.700 --> 56:58.140]  We're up to $5,285.
[56:58.480 --> 57:00.080]  That's pretty amazing, I think.
[57:00.080 --> 57:05.840]  And it shows the power of listeners and shows what important things our guests have to say tonight.
[57:06.080 --> 57:08.300]  Please show your support by calling us.
[57:08.400 --> 57:10.120]  You're not only showing support for the radio station.
[57:10.240 --> 57:23.080]  You're showing support for people like Daniel Morgan, for people like our friend in Belgrade, for people like Kevin Mitnick, for people like Bernie S., all those people who stand up for freedom of speech, for what it's all about.
[57:23.460 --> 57:25.820]  212-209-2950.
[57:25.820 --> 57:27.100]  We've been here for three hours tonight.
[57:27.100 --> 57:27.840]  We're pretty tired.
[57:29.100 --> 57:32.480]  But we're going to try and see Star Wars after midnight and see if that works out.
[57:32.480 --> 57:33.480]  See if that works out.
[57:33.660 --> 57:34.380]  Yeah, maybe we'll talk.
[57:34.380 --> 57:35.060]  We'll hear about it tomorrow.
[57:35.180 --> 57:35.840]  Yeah, we'll hear about it.
[57:35.920 --> 57:37.180]  What is Kevin doing, by the way?
[57:37.300 --> 57:41.840]  Well, you know, as good as somebody can do inside prison for over four years, it's horrible.
[57:42.020 --> 57:42.820]  Really, it's terrible.
[57:43.180 --> 57:49.200]  The nightmare never seems to end, and they don't seem to ever want to stop making him pay for what they consider to be a crime.
[57:49.200 --> 58:05.900]  It's the same goonish mentality that we see in so many places these days, whether it's a civil lawsuit, whether it's prosecutors in a federal case, or, you know, army soldiers in a foreign country trying to intimidate people.
[58:07.100 --> 58:10.020]  It's really sad, but individuals have power.
[58:10.160 --> 58:11.820]  And that's the point we're trying to get across tonight.
[58:12.860 --> 58:13.900]  212-209-2950.
[58:14.800 --> 58:20.440]  Daniel, I want to thank you very much for joining us and wish you all the luck with the upcoming lawsuit.
[58:20.600 --> 58:26.100]  And again, if anybody out there can help with your particular case, how can they contact you?
[58:26.100 --> 58:32.180]  They can reach us here at our office at 517-685-3410.
[58:33.240 --> 58:33.640]  Okay.
[58:34.140 --> 58:36.060]  And do you have any kind of email or anything like that?
[58:36.140 --> 58:36.700]  Yes, I do.
[58:36.880 --> 58:47.660]  It's dmorgan, that's d-m-o-r-g-a-n-d-b-at-i-dash-star-s-t-a-r-dot-com.
[58:47.840 --> 58:49.260]  Is that the account that gets subpoenaed?
[58:49.800 --> 58:50.200]  Yes.
[58:50.340 --> 58:50.840]  Okay, good.
[58:51.980 --> 58:53.600]  Do you want to give that email one more time?
[58:53.600 --> 59:04.140]  Sure enough, it's dmorgan, that's d-m-o-r-g-a-n-d-b-at-i-dash-star-s-t-a-r-dot-com.
[59:04.900 --> 59:05.180]  Okay.
[59:05.880 --> 59:06.780]  Again, thanks.
[59:06.960 --> 59:07.800]  Best of luck to you.
[59:07.900 --> 59:13.440]  We'll be following this case in the future, and I look forward to reading future issues of Satellite Watch News.
[59:13.600 --> 59:14.820]  I think it's a really cool zine.
[59:15.220 --> 59:19.160]  Emmanuel, hey, it's been my pleasure, and 2600 does rock.
[59:19.360 --> 59:19.780]  Okay.
[59:20.300 --> 59:21.420]  Hey, thanks very much.
[59:21.500 --> 59:21.960]  Take care, guys.
[59:22.100 --> 59:22.440]  All right.
[59:22.580 --> 59:22.880]  Bye-bye now.
[59:23.600 --> 59:27.000]  Thank you for joining us from Philadelphia, even though we can barely hear you.
[59:27.360 --> 59:27.900]  Thank you.
[59:30.250 --> 59:33.390]  And we'll, of course, be in touch with you over the next few weeks.
[59:33.490 --> 59:36.290]  And, of course, our next show will be in two weeks.
[59:37.750 --> 59:46.570]  I'm really glad I went out to Dayton, because the people there were great, and I got to meet people like Dan, you know, who had a lot of things to say.
[59:46.650 --> 59:48.930]  And there are a lot of people out there who do have much to say.
[59:49.490 --> 59:56.970]  And, fortunately, here at BAI, we have a means of bringing those people together, and you have a means of showing support for that.
[59:57.390 --> 59:58.270]  One last time.
[59:58.410 --> 59:59.970]  One last time, 212-209-2950.
[01:00:00.910 --> 01:00:02.350]  We have three packages for you.
[01:00:02.470 --> 01:00:10.450]  You can subscribe, or you can, by subscribing to BAI, you get satellite watch news delivered to your house, or post office box, or office, or wherever you want.
[01:00:10.890 --> 01:00:13.210]  Or a friend, you know, wherever you want it to be sent.
[01:00:13.210 --> 01:00:16.310]  Now, can they still call, even though we're not on the air?
[01:00:16.570 --> 01:00:20.550]  Yeah, but they better hurry, because this isn't going to be talked about much more after this show.
[01:00:20.650 --> 01:00:23.430]  We have a special comic book special coming up in two hours.
[01:00:23.490 --> 01:00:29.850]  In fact, people listening on Real Audio, stay tuned, because this show is going to be continued to be carried on Real Audio.
[01:00:30.030 --> 01:00:31.430]  We're doing that as a special public service.
[01:00:31.990 --> 01:00:33.910]  212-209-2950 for $75.
[01:00:33.990 --> 01:00:38.470]  You get the satellite watch news and the secret videotape.
[01:00:38.470 --> 01:00:39.330]  Well, it's not so secret.
[01:00:39.510 --> 01:00:43.390]  It's what they want to outlaw to make it illegal to have this videotape.
[01:00:43.490 --> 01:00:45.170]  So get it soon before they succeed.
[01:00:46.170 --> 01:00:47.910]  And, of course, you get the 2600 t-shirt.
[01:00:48.050 --> 01:00:48.650]  That's for $75.
[01:00:48.990 --> 01:00:53.970]  For $150, you get all four CD-ROMs of all our shows from 1988 to 1997.
[01:00:54.410 --> 01:00:55.710]  100 hours per CD.
[01:00:55.710 --> 01:00:57.890]  All you need is a computer and a CD-ROM drive.
[01:00:58.510 --> 01:01:00.490]  And you, again, get a 2600 t-shirt.
[01:01:00.630 --> 01:01:01.090]  That's $150.
[01:01:01.530 --> 01:01:05.930]  And $250 every back issue of 2600 from 1984 to 1999.
[01:01:07.250 --> 01:01:08.690]  Well worth twice this amount.
[01:01:09.270 --> 01:01:12.090]  And if you add in the t-shirt, it's worth even more.
[01:01:12.190 --> 01:01:13.110]  It's a $250 pledge.
[01:01:13.250 --> 01:01:14.690]  212-209-2950.
[01:01:14.930 --> 01:01:16.910]  This is Emmanuel Goldstein for Isaac.
[01:01:17.010 --> 01:01:18.210]  Thank you very much for coming in.
[01:01:18.270 --> 01:01:18.590]  No problem.
[01:01:18.730 --> 01:01:21.550]  Laszlo, thanks for making the pilgrimage from commercial radio.
[01:01:22.370 --> 01:01:23.750]  Here's a long, ugly road.
[01:01:23.930 --> 01:01:24.130]  Yeah.
[01:01:24.870 --> 01:01:27.050]  Hopefully, we'll keep you on our side here.
[01:01:27.230 --> 01:01:27.550]  Right on.
[01:01:27.890 --> 01:01:30.030]  And hopefully, we'll have you back again sometime.
[01:01:30.950 --> 01:01:33.330]  Our number at this point, 5,485.
[01:01:33.330 --> 01:01:35.930]  Thanks very much to everybody who called in and pledged.
[01:01:35.930 --> 01:01:38.150]  First, I also want to give a special thanks to the Real Audio crew.
[01:01:39.790 --> 01:01:42.690]  Jwince, Shiflock, C-Note, Jules, Dark Tech, Absolute Zero.
[01:01:42.890 --> 01:01:47.110]  And to the MP3 crew, Anakin, Timrek, Droop the Snowdog.
[01:01:47.270 --> 01:01:52.090]  And also, thanks to Nate G for the custom stat program.
[01:01:52.470 --> 01:01:58.250]  These are the people who bring you the sounds of Off the Hook over the air, over the net every week.
[01:01:58.350 --> 01:01:59.210]  I want to thank you very much.
[01:01:59.210 --> 01:02:00.470]  And also, thanks very much to Porkchop.
[01:02:00.550 --> 01:02:05.450]  And happy birthday to Porkchop for helping us out week after week.
[01:02:05.670 --> 01:02:05.850]  Okay.
[01:02:05.930 --> 01:02:06.250]  That's it.
[01:02:06.390 --> 01:02:06.610]  Good night.
[01:02:06.930 --> 01:02:07.950]  We'll be back in two weeks.