[00:02.120 --> 00:04.880]  ...views and analysis from Latin America and the Caribbean.
[00:05.220 --> 00:08.860]  Tune into Our Americas every Friday from 5 to 6 p.m.
[00:09.080 --> 00:18.020]  From the pages of NACLAW's report on the Americas to Pacifica Radio's award-winning coverage of the Hemisphere, keep up to date about the region on Our Americas.
[00:18.020 --> 00:22.680]  The weekly report on Latin America and the Caribbean, Friday afternoons at 5 p.m.
[00:22.900 --> 00:26.400]  Only on WBAI 99.5 FM.
[00:33.160 --> 00:38.840]  And you're listening to listener-sponsored WBAI in the city of New York.
[00:39.040 --> 00:40.180]  Off the Hook is next.
[01:14.570 --> 01:14.970]  And
[01:57.500 --> 02:01.880]  a good
[03:30.940 --> 03:31.540]  evening to everybody.
[03:31.540 --> 03:32.620]  The program is Off the Hook.
[03:32.760 --> 03:35.640]  It's Emmanuel Goldstein here with you this week, along with Isaac and Portia.
[03:36.020 --> 03:36.400]  How you doing?
[03:36.740 --> 03:37.240]  Good evening.
[03:37.960 --> 03:39.780]  And we're back live this week.
[03:39.960 --> 03:41.340]  Well, actually, we were live last week.
[03:41.520 --> 03:43.700]  Just some of us weren't quite here.
[03:43.800 --> 03:45.220]  Some of us more live than others.
[03:45.220 --> 03:46.360]  Well, yeah, I was in California.
[03:46.360 --> 03:47.280]  I was on the telephone.
[03:47.500 --> 03:51.720]  And, well, I had just been to the Mitnick hearing the day before.
[03:52.880 --> 03:55.060]  And I guess I sounded a little drained from that.
[03:55.960 --> 03:57.460]  The federal court will do that to you, you know?
[03:58.320 --> 04:00.380]  It'll drain the lifeblood right out of you.
[04:00.440 --> 04:01.660]  And that's what it's there for.
[04:03.040 --> 04:06.560]  But if I didn't convey it last week, it was quite an experience.
[04:07.760 --> 04:09.300]  A couple of different kinds of experiences.
[04:09.300 --> 04:11.320]  It was a positive thing, obviously.
[04:11.460 --> 04:15.340]  And it was also a very negative thing, because you see somebody you know, literally in chains.
[04:15.820 --> 04:19.060]  And you realize that that's a situation that's been going on for years.
[04:19.880 --> 04:21.980]  Kevin Mitnick been in prison for over four years.
[04:22.120 --> 04:23.760]  Four years and five months, I believe.
[04:24.960 --> 04:29.440]  And the end may be in sight, although there are still quite a few hurdles left to go.
[04:29.440 --> 04:32.380]  So, the final sentencing, and this is it.
[04:32.380 --> 04:32.900]  No more.
[04:33.040 --> 04:35.040]  It's all over after this, is next Monday.
[04:35.540 --> 04:39.600]  Monday, the 26th of July, 1 p.m.
[04:40.220 --> 04:40.960]  Pacific time.
[04:41.320 --> 04:52.200]  And if you visit our webpage, www.2600.com or www.freekevin.com, you will see all the details as to exactly where you have to go.
[04:52.920 --> 04:54.380]  Porkchop, you were there as well.
[04:54.540 --> 04:55.640]  It was quite an experience, wasn't it?
[04:55.740 --> 04:56.840]  Yeah, it was kind of interesting.
[04:57.100 --> 04:58.160]  We filled the courtroom.
[04:58.560 --> 04:59.560]  Yes, we did, actually.
[04:59.740 --> 04:59.900]  That was surprising.
[04:59.900 --> 05:00.340]  We filled the courtroom.
[05:00.420 --> 05:00.700]  You too?
[05:01.040 --> 05:01.860]  You filled the entire courtroom?
[05:01.960 --> 05:02.680]  Well, no, no.
[05:02.840 --> 05:06.200]  We had about 70 other people, I think, show up.
[05:06.360 --> 05:09.280]  And that's about as much as the courtroom could take.
[05:09.380 --> 05:09.880]  Where were they from?
[05:10.360 --> 05:11.140]  All over the place.
[05:11.340 --> 05:15.320]  A lot of people came from DEFCON, which was the hacker convention that ended last weekend.
[05:15.640 --> 05:20.920]  We had kind of a caravan across the desert of people that went from one city to another.
[05:22.100 --> 05:28.540]  This coming Monday, of course, we hope to do the same thing from different places, from San Francisco, from San Diego, from other parts of the world.
[05:28.760 --> 05:31.040]  We had people from overseas that showed up at the hearing.
[05:31.700 --> 05:35.160]  This time, we are told it is definitely over.
[05:35.380 --> 05:36.140]  It is it.
[05:36.280 --> 05:36.800]  No more.
[05:37.020 --> 05:39.140]  That's when the sentencing will be decided.
[05:39.140 --> 05:43.480]  And the judge can, at that particular point in time, say, that's all.
[05:43.740 --> 05:45.660]  You're released to a halfway house.
[05:45.900 --> 05:53.280]  Of course, whether or not that actually happens, whether or not he actually does get released to a halfway house, that's open to bureaucracy, as always.
[05:53.780 --> 05:56.480]  But the point is, we want this to end.
[05:56.480 --> 05:57.940]  We want the nightmare to be over.
[05:58.080 --> 06:03.840]  We want to get this state case out of the way, which is the latest round of nonsense that they're throwing at us.
[06:04.520 --> 06:11.260]  And basically, we want freedom, liberty for this individual, an end to the suffering.
[06:12.480 --> 06:19.600]  And it's just interesting to see how the case has been completely distorted and misrepresented over the years.
[06:19.600 --> 06:24.560]  How they make it sound like he caused so much pain and suffering.
[06:24.760 --> 06:32.800]  By looking at that source code, by accessing computers, or by making a free cellular phone call, they're talking hundreds of millions of dollars of damage.
[06:33.040 --> 06:35.740]  And obviously, obviously, that just isn't right.
[06:36.080 --> 06:40.560]  And obviously, it's not going to stand in the public eye.
[06:40.860 --> 06:41.520]  It hasn't so far.
[06:41.700 --> 06:46.740]  Whenever we tell people about this kind of nonsense, there's a strong reaction against it.
[06:46.800 --> 06:54.260]  And I think that's one of the reasons why we've seen a backing down as far as the numbers, the high numbers, hundreds of millions of dollars of damage.
[06:54.380 --> 06:56.840]  We're no longer talking about that because that is just so absurd.
[06:57.620 --> 07:01.680]  So we'll see what happens on Monday again in Los Angeles, Federal Court.
[07:01.820 --> 07:03.180]  I believe it's on Spring Street.
[07:03.640 --> 07:04.320]  Be careful.
[07:04.440 --> 07:04.880]  There's two of them.
[07:04.980 --> 07:10.360]  We went to the wrong one at first and had to run across the Federal Court complex to get to the right one on time.
[07:10.600 --> 07:11.820]  It starts at 1 p.m.
[07:11.900 --> 07:15.040]  Don't forget to change your clocks if you travel over to California.
[07:15.160 --> 07:18.380]  Of course, if you're already there, just make sure you're there before 1 o'clock.
[07:18.720 --> 07:20.520]  And it's this Monday coming up.
[07:20.700 --> 07:22.500]  We'll be reporting on it next week, obviously.
[07:22.520 --> 07:25.520]  We'll be telling people exactly what happened and where things stand.
[07:25.520 --> 07:28.480]  And we hope things have changed quite a bit.
[07:28.760 --> 07:38.360]  Afterwards, I don't know if we got into this last week, but afterwards, we met up with some members of his family, his mother, his father, his grandmother, aunts, uncles, things like that.
[07:38.460 --> 07:43.640]  And we all sort of went out and just kind of chilled together for the first time ever.
[07:43.900 --> 07:46.240]  A bunch of hackers and a bunch of his relatives.
[07:46.840 --> 07:53.180]  And it was just kind of weird, you know, all of us there, all of us having one thing in common.
[07:53.380 --> 07:55.300]  But of course, that one thing in common wasn't there.
[07:56.280 --> 08:00.940]  That person still being locked up, as he was for the last four years and five months.
[08:01.620 --> 08:09.440]  And it was just such a strange way to spend an afternoon with his relatives, most of whom we had never met before.
[08:10.180 --> 08:12.680]  But somehow, we seem to know them.
[08:12.740 --> 08:17.740]  We seem to know them as the kinds of people that you hang out with at family gatherings.
[08:17.740 --> 08:23.820]  You know, you catch up on Thanksgiving and talk about what's changed with various family members.
[08:23.820 --> 08:29.260]  And you hear all the gossip and, you know, just those things that we've all experienced.
[08:29.920 --> 08:35.180]  And these are the things that Kevin has missed over all this time, the things that he has been robbed of.
[08:35.740 --> 08:38.120]  You can say, yeah, he's not being tortured.
[08:38.300 --> 08:43.280]  It could be a lot worse if he was in some, you know, some prison in another country or something like that.
[08:43.280 --> 08:44.020]  But it is torture.
[08:44.220 --> 08:48.260]  It is as bad as anything else because he's been robbed.
[08:48.360 --> 08:49.320]  He's been robbed of his family.
[08:49.460 --> 08:52.600]  He's been robbed of his life for a very, very long time.
[08:52.700 --> 08:58.620]  And you have to wonder, is something like that going to change somebody over an extended period?
[08:58.940 --> 09:00.680]  You know, will he come out of this the same person?
[09:00.840 --> 09:07.460]  All indications are that he will because he certainly seemed healthy and happy and well-adjusted.
[09:07.460 --> 09:10.200]  I can't imagine how after going through that kind of hell.
[09:10.200 --> 09:18.360]  But one only hopes that it ends soon, that he's able to rejoin the people we hung out with and be together with them as they want him to.
[09:19.380 --> 09:25.660]  So that's a bit of the human angle of this, which I always knew was there, but I didn't actually see it firsthand.
[09:25.660 --> 09:28.260]  And it was quite touching.
[09:30.080 --> 09:30.600]  All right.
[09:31.240 --> 09:33.480]  So that's taking place next Monday.
[09:33.480 --> 09:35.080]  We'll, of course, keep you updated on that.
[09:35.980 --> 09:39.180]  Any news from your respective worlds, gentlemen?
[09:39.860 --> 09:43.940]  Well, I'm happily celebrating the 30th anniversary of the Apollo moon landing.
[09:44.280 --> 09:44.840]  Oh, really?
[09:45.100 --> 09:45.260]  Yes.
[09:45.640 --> 09:47.360]  Does that account for the spacey look on your face?
[09:47.440 --> 09:47.820]  Of course.
[09:48.040 --> 09:48.240]  Ah.
[09:49.060 --> 09:49.380]  Okay.
[09:49.480 --> 09:50.880]  Well, that is something.
[09:51.080 --> 09:53.680]  30 years ago, we went to the moon, and we haven't gone anywhere since.
[09:53.960 --> 09:54.700]  30 years in a day.
[09:55.120 --> 09:56.160]  That's actually depressing.
[09:56.240 --> 09:57.000]  It's very depressing.
[09:57.120 --> 10:04.060]  You know, when I was a kid back then, when we were landing on the moon, I said, hey, this is cool, because maybe now I'll get to go to Mars, you know, by the time I'm like 20 or something.
[10:04.600 --> 10:12.820]  But, you know, I have to say I'm very disappointed that we've spent a lot of time squabbling over NASA and, you know, various other things, and just never amounted to much after that.
[10:12.920 --> 10:15.480]  So hopefully that'll wake people up.
[10:15.520 --> 10:15.780]  I don't know.
[10:15.840 --> 10:23.060]  We keep doing these things in space, you know, like, you know, spacewalks and satellites and putting John Glenn up there again against his wishes, by the way.
[10:24.600 --> 10:29.560]  And we keep thinking that that's going to inspire us to move ahead, and it never seems to.
[10:29.720 --> 10:30.240]  It never seems to.
[10:30.280 --> 10:31.380]  We still stay here on Earth.
[10:32.480 --> 10:35.840]  Maybe the destruction of the planet will inspire us to go to another place.
[10:36.380 --> 10:40.740]  Oh, by the way, you know that meteorite we thought was heading for us, and we said that it wasn't.
[10:40.800 --> 10:41.460]  Well, it really is.
[10:41.500 --> 10:43.560]  So we really need to push the space program out.
[10:43.620 --> 10:44.380]  When's it getting here?
[10:45.140 --> 10:46.180]  A couple of years.
[10:46.360 --> 10:46.640]  A couple of years.
[10:46.720 --> 10:49.880]  We need to, you know, colonize Mars very quickly.
[10:49.960 --> 10:52.280]  We could all cram into a spaceship and get up there.
[10:53.240 --> 10:54.420]  I don't know what it's going to take.
[10:54.640 --> 10:57.080]  Well, the status of the space program...
[10:57.080 --> 11:03.900]  Well, somebody told me that landing somebody on the moon 30 years ago, it was done with the equivalent, and tell me if I'm wrong here, the equivalent of three Commodore 64s?
[11:04.700 --> 11:05.420]  Basically, yeah.
[11:05.740 --> 11:06.460]  You've got to be kidding.
[11:06.700 --> 11:09.160]  That's how we got somebody up to the moon with three Commodore 64s?
[11:09.260 --> 11:10.160]  You hear that, kids?
[11:10.260 --> 11:11.880]  You hear what you can do with a little ingenuity?
[11:12.460 --> 11:13.640]  A lot of hardware, too.
[11:13.740 --> 11:14.760]  They failed to mention that.
[11:14.860 --> 11:16.560]  But really, that's all the computing power that was there.
[11:17.080 --> 11:19.860]  It crashed on the way down, actually, while it was landing on the moon.
[11:20.540 --> 11:21.860]  Neil Armstrong had to take over.
[11:21.860 --> 11:22.420]  Uh-huh.
[11:22.620 --> 11:23.280]  On the way down.
[11:23.600 --> 11:23.800]  Really?
[11:24.200 --> 11:24.380]  Mm-hmm.
[11:24.660 --> 11:26.200]  Got one of those annoying little errors, huh?
[11:26.300 --> 11:27.620]  Yeah, it was... what was it?
[11:27.720 --> 11:30.640]  Like, one, two, six, nine...
[11:30.640 --> 11:31.460]  Radar guidance.
[11:32.020 --> 11:32.320]  Uh-huh.
[11:32.600 --> 11:33.440]  One of those things failed.
[11:33.680 --> 11:34.180]  All right.
[11:34.840 --> 11:37.340]  Anything else from your respective worlds there?
[11:37.460 --> 11:38.260]  From space?
[11:38.400 --> 11:40.500]  Well, if that's where your world is today, yeah.
[11:41.140 --> 11:44.760]  Well, yeah, the empty space between my ears, but no.
[11:45.200 --> 11:46.700]  Porschach, you brought something interesting in.
[11:46.700 --> 11:47.220]  Yes, I did.
[11:47.400 --> 11:51.020]  Tell me about this, because you sure shocked the hell out of me with this bit of news.
[11:51.020 --> 11:58.800]  Well, yesterday, considering to get a new line for a new project of mine, and I found out that there's a touch-tone fee.
[11:59.360 --> 12:05.940]  It's a dollar per line per month from Bell Atlantic, and you said that this fee was disappeared.
[12:05.940 --> 12:12.280]  It was my understanding that the touch-tone fee has disappeared, but apparently you live in some place in Jersey that they still charge you.
[12:12.640 --> 12:14.120]  Now, I'm in the same phone company.
[12:14.200 --> 12:15.180]  I've got Bell Atlantic, too.
[12:15.380 --> 12:16.700]  There's no touch-tone fee here.
[12:16.700 --> 12:22.240]  I'd like to know why your touch-tones cost money and mine don't, especially when they don't even belong to the phone company.
[12:22.560 --> 12:24.360]  They're generated by your own phone.
[12:24.500 --> 12:25.500]  So, I don't know.
[12:25.560 --> 12:26.720]  What are they getting away with here?
[12:26.800 --> 12:28.820]  A dollar per line per person in New Jersey?
[12:28.920 --> 12:29.820]  Is it the whole state?
[12:30.020 --> 12:30.580]  Let us know.
[12:30.740 --> 12:33.220]  You know, is everybody being victimized by this?
[12:33.220 --> 12:34.240]  Apparently that's the case.
[12:34.460 --> 12:51.720]  The way I understood it from the woman that answered the phone at the business office, she said that it was mandated by the FCC, that not everybody has a touch-tone phone, and therefore the people who don't have touch-tone phones don't have to pay for the extra switching equipment required to handle the touch-tone.
[12:51.840 --> 12:53.420]  And you told her that was a crock, didn't you?
[12:53.600 --> 12:55.340]  I mean, mandated by the FCC.
[12:55.880 --> 12:56.640]  That's nonsense.
[12:56.880 --> 13:00.640]  That's the crutch they fall down upon every time somebody questions a bill.
[13:00.660 --> 13:02.380]  Well, the FCC told us to do it.
[13:02.460 --> 13:02.820]  Here it is.
[13:02.860 --> 13:03.120]  Here it is.
[13:03.220 --> 13:07.680]  It's under basic charges on page 3 of 16 of my phone bill.
[13:08.040 --> 13:13.600]  Basic services include all charges that are regulated by the New Jersey Board of Public Utilities, such as line charge, local calling, etc.
[13:14.560 --> 13:24.940]  Down three lines, FCC subscriber line charge, local number portability surcharge, additional yakin' yak, and it goes on for a while.
[13:25.660 --> 13:27.820]  Basically takes me for about 20 bucks.
[13:28.020 --> 13:29.120]  Kind of gives you a big headache, huh?
[13:29.520 --> 13:29.780]  Oh, yeah.
[13:29.780 --> 13:32.880]  20 bucks just for the taxes?
[13:33.140 --> 13:35.400]  FCC and New Jersey Board of Public Utilities.
[13:35.500 --> 13:38.500]  That might be what's mandated and not the FCC.
[13:38.920 --> 13:43.320]  But she said FCC, but it says here, New Jersey Board of Public Utilities.
[13:43.820 --> 13:44.700]  I can speak.
[13:45.260 --> 13:47.140]  Okay, well, that's, uh...
[13:47.140 --> 13:52.320]  So just use your Pulse dialing phone and save a dollar a month, yeah, per line.
[13:52.460 --> 13:54.100]  It actually costs them more money if you do that.
[13:54.200 --> 13:54.600]  No kidding.
[13:54.720 --> 13:54.920]  Yeah.
[13:55.060 --> 13:59.940]  Which is why I would become greatly inspired to go back to just clicking my receiver.
[14:00.120 --> 14:09.160]  Well, I'd like to hear from people out there if they are still... look on your phone bill, we'll see if you're still paying a touchstone fee, because it's been eliminated just about every place civilized, so I don't understand.
[14:09.400 --> 14:10.360]  This really shocks me.
[14:10.440 --> 14:11.940]  I really assumed that it was gone.
[14:12.140 --> 14:13.420]  Well, New Jersey isn't exactly civilized.
[14:13.420 --> 14:13.680]  Yeah, thanks.
[14:13.980 --> 14:15.240]  Well, let's not get into that right now.
[14:15.360 --> 14:16.680]  It's no point getting too original.
[14:16.820 --> 14:17.740]  I'm like the striking distance of your head.
[14:17.860 --> 14:18.940]  You realize that that's true.
[14:19.240 --> 14:20.800]  All right, here's some listener mail.
[14:21.080 --> 14:24.720]  And, of course, you can send us listener mail, OTH at 2600.com.
[14:24.720 --> 14:35.940]  Gentlemen, your 7.13 broadcast just ended, and we merely wanted to thank you for, A, putting this show on at all, and, B, making it available even to those of us on the backward West Coast.
[14:36.520 --> 14:40.000]  We split from work early today just so we'd be home to hear it.
[14:40.140 --> 14:40.700]  No regrets.
[14:41.100 --> 14:41.740]  Isn't that something?
[14:42.220 --> 14:42.940]  Isn't that great?
[14:43.220 --> 14:48.240]  I mean, that's what it's all about, is people actually making a special trip to listen to the show.
[14:48.280 --> 14:53.260]  Of course, we do archive the show, so if you do miss it, you can hear the archived versions.
[14:53.400 --> 14:54.500]  In fact, they go all the way back to 1988.
[14:54.720 --> 14:57.120]  But I think that says a lot.
[14:57.660 --> 15:02.180]  I mean, we've been doing the on-air, the over-the-net broadcast now for a couple of years.
[15:02.540 --> 15:03.360]  And we have...
[15:03.360 --> 15:03.960]  Since Beyond Hope, yeah.
[15:04.020 --> 15:07.940]  Since Beyond Hope, we've had a lot of growth in that department.
[15:08.180 --> 15:09.300]  And let's hope it continues.
[15:10.220 --> 15:12.660]  Speaking of Beyond Hope, of course, we have H2K coming up.
[15:12.800 --> 15:16.160]  We mentioned this briefly last week that we're looking for a place to have it.
[15:17.900 --> 15:19.420]  Leaning towards a hotel right now.
[15:19.640 --> 15:22.820]  Leaning towards a hotel, only because there might be more space in there.
[15:22.820 --> 15:26.360]  So if you know of a spacey hotel someplace, spacey in a good sense.
[15:26.800 --> 15:27.960]  A lot of spacey in an Isaac sense.
[15:28.140 --> 15:31.040]  No, give us a ring.
[15:31.120 --> 15:33.040]  Send us an email, OTH at 2600.com.
[15:34.640 --> 15:35.400]  Here's another letter.
[15:35.880 --> 15:39.260]  Though I'm not a hacker, I do enjoy listening to Off the Hook and reading 2600.
[15:39.260 --> 15:44.920]  I support those who hack in the spirit of tinkering, exploration, and education with technology.
[15:45.480 --> 15:50.220]  After logging on to the hacked pages of 2600, I was dismayed to read some of the messages.
[15:50.500 --> 15:54.940]  With an opportunity to speak to the world, some hackers have opted to use low-level slang.
[15:55.100 --> 15:56.680]  In particular, homophobic slang.
[15:57.000 --> 16:01.080]  One site suggests homosexual sex in a derogatory manner at the FBI.
[16:01.660 --> 16:05.700]  Another uses the phrase, faggot bum humpers, spelled with threes.
[16:05.700 --> 16:09.780]  There are several examples on the 2600 hacked pages.
[16:09.940 --> 16:13.980]  Though I would never tell someone what to say or censor their words, I will criticize it.
[16:14.200 --> 16:18.460]  Such words, based on stereotypes and bias, are likely to turn away many potential allies.
[16:18.800 --> 16:24.640]  If the hacker community wishes to prove its worth and legitimacy, it must act with the highest standards and ethics.
[16:24.860 --> 16:27.880]  I think that should include a respect for the people who make up our world.
[16:28.080 --> 16:29.020]  It's food for thought.
[16:29.260 --> 16:29.880]  Signed, Penn.
[16:30.400 --> 16:31.960]  And I could not agree more.
[16:32.160 --> 16:33.360]  I could not agree more.
[16:34.160 --> 16:34.920]  What's wrong with you?
[16:36.720 --> 16:48.720]  I agree completely that the level of childishness demonstrated by many of the people who are hacking these websites is definitely...
[16:48.720 --> 16:50.980]  It's inspirational, the children everywhere.
[16:51.140 --> 16:51.720]  Oh, of course.
[16:52.100 --> 16:56.900]  But the whole politically correct bit bothers me.
[16:56.980 --> 16:58.000]  What was politically correct here?
[16:58.000 --> 17:09.920]  Well, the person writing, at least as I'm trying to read it, is he's more interested in the gay bashing than the fact that these people actually have the ability to say something worthwhile.
[17:10.140 --> 17:15.080]  And they just kind of squander it on a bunch of, you know, whoopies with zeros and, you know...
[17:15.080 --> 17:20.040]  Well, something tells me if somebody was bashing whatever lifestyle you're from, you'd be upset by it as well.
[17:20.040 --> 17:25.280]  And you should expand that to include lifestyles that are not necessarily your own.
[17:26.120 --> 17:30.480]  So any kind of bashing, any kind of bashing is something worthy of condemnation.
[17:31.040 --> 17:31.520]  Correct.
[17:31.740 --> 17:33.580]  I applaud this person for condemning this.
[17:33.580 --> 17:41.300]  I do as well, but the core issue is the fact that these people are squandering the soapbox that they managed to get into themselves.
[17:41.320 --> 17:42.100]  Oh, no argument there.
[17:42.240 --> 17:42.980]  No argument there at all.
[17:43.160 --> 17:50.500]  And it's, you know, it's a self-built soapbox, obviously, one that's illegal to use, where you actually hack somebody's website.
[17:50.500 --> 17:54.060]  But if you are going to do something like that, if you are going to take the risk...
[17:54.340 --> 17:54.660]  Come on.
[17:54.740 --> 18:00.840]  Yeah, you can say something that is halfway intelligent, that people might actually listen to, that might really make a difference.
[18:01.120 --> 18:02.720]  I think that'd be kind of interesting.
[18:03.820 --> 18:11.620]  All right, and this other person sent us some e-mail as far as the 2600 site being blocked.
[18:13.420 --> 18:14.120]  We're blocked?
[18:14.360 --> 18:15.760]  Yeah, we're blocked all over the place.
[18:16.660 --> 18:19.940]  Let me see which one has blocked us in this particular case.
[18:20.080 --> 18:22.620]  Does an officer, what's his name, software block us?
[18:23.020 --> 18:24.680]  Well, yeah, that certainly does.
[18:25.960 --> 18:26.900]  Cybernot, that's it.
[18:27.040 --> 18:29.120]  Have you heard of Cybernot, as in Cybernazi?
[18:30.480 --> 18:33.080]  I would have thought Cybernot, like N-A-U-T.
[18:33.080 --> 18:33.740]  No, no.
[18:33.740 --> 18:35.180]  I'm still in that whole space thing.
[18:35.360 --> 18:36.800]  N-O-T, Cybernot.
[18:37.660 --> 18:45.400]  The requested URL, and this is us, 2600.com, is blocked by your site administrator because it falls into the following Cybernot categories.
[18:45.640 --> 18:45.780]  Ready?
[18:46.500 --> 18:48.120]  Violence slash profanity.
[18:49.200 --> 18:51.040]  Militants slash extremists.
[18:51.960 --> 18:52.520]  That's it.
[18:52.540 --> 18:53.280]  I'm getting the AK.
[18:53.460 --> 18:54.660]  I'm going after these people.
[18:54.980 --> 18:55.760]  And this is the best one.
[18:55.760 --> 18:57.600]  Illegal activities slash gambling.
[18:59.520 --> 19:00.560]  Interesting connections there.
[19:00.600 --> 19:02.400]  Well, I guess they attach the two of them.
[19:02.760 --> 19:03.720]  What if we're in Nevada?
[19:04.300 --> 19:05.060]  I don't know.
[19:05.200 --> 19:05.500]  I'm not sure.
[19:05.520 --> 19:06.680]  We're just illegal activities.
[19:06.940 --> 19:07.260]  Just illegal activities.
[19:07.800 --> 19:10.680]  So I guess you pick one out of the two for every single line there.
[19:10.840 --> 19:13.640]  Well, the slash is a very harsh thing to use anyway.
[19:13.800 --> 19:15.720]  I mean, they're talking about us being violent.
[19:15.900 --> 19:17.660]  They're slashing things here and there.
[19:18.140 --> 19:19.380]  Well, I don't think that's what they mean by that.
[19:19.440 --> 19:22.480]  But anyway, if you take one, violence, profanity, I guess we'd have to take profanity.
[19:22.480 --> 19:24.000]  Militants slash extremists.
[19:24.140 --> 19:25.040]  I guess we're extremists.
[19:25.220 --> 19:26.240]  Well, maybe we're militants.
[19:26.280 --> 19:26.580]  I don't know.
[19:27.220 --> 19:28.580]  Illegal activities slash gambling.
[19:28.720 --> 19:30.180]  Well, we certainly talk about illegal activities.
[19:31.440 --> 19:36.720]  Access to this site has been blocked because it appears to contain material that is inconsistent with the Merrill Lynch principles.
[19:36.920 --> 19:37.220]  What is it?
[19:37.280 --> 19:38.320]  The Merrill Lynch principles?
[19:38.480 --> 19:39.120]  Where'd they come in?
[19:39.240 --> 19:40.360]  And when did they get principles?
[19:40.460 --> 19:42.280]  Well, which principles are we talking about here?
[19:42.300 --> 19:42.660]  I have no idea.
[19:42.820 --> 19:46.300]  Please refer to the guidelines for electronic communications for more information.
[19:46.980 --> 19:48.440]  It sounds like we're in Singapore or something.
[19:48.440 --> 19:50.840]  Well, are these ethical principles or like monetary principles?
[19:51.340 --> 19:52.980]  I don't think they know the difference.
[19:53.400 --> 19:55.940]  If you feel this site should not be blocked, i.e.
[19:55.940 --> 20:00.800]  you have a bona fide business reason for accessing it, please send a message to the email address below.
[20:03.500 --> 20:08.920]  And I won't give that address out because then we'll be accused of all kinds of terrorist activities as well.
[20:09.000 --> 20:10.140]  Ooh, that can go on the list.
[20:10.280 --> 20:12.280]  But Anonymizer, you're familiar with Anonymizer.
[20:12.420 --> 20:13.060]  I know Anonymizer.
[20:13.120 --> 20:15.260]  That's the site that allows you to connect to other sites.
[20:15.440 --> 20:17.980]  I remember Anonymizer way back when they were like not popular.
[20:18.140 --> 20:18.340]  Okay.
[20:18.340 --> 20:18.980]  I remember that.
[20:19.400 --> 20:20.480]  I believe you remember them.
[20:20.560 --> 20:22.240]  Now let me explain to the people who might not know what I'm talking about.
[20:22.320 --> 20:22.540]  Oh, I'm sorry.
[20:23.220 --> 20:29.420]  Anonymizer.com is the site that allows you to connect to other websites without your site being sent.
[20:29.480 --> 20:32.820]  A lot of people don't realize even that when you connect to a website, they know who you are.
[20:32.900 --> 20:34.080]  They know where you're connecting from.
[20:34.940 --> 20:36.460]  It's basically just a web proxy.
[20:36.520 --> 20:36.640]  Yeah.
[20:36.700 --> 20:39.280]  If you go through Anonymizer, their address shows up instead.
[20:39.280 --> 20:48.260]  Of course, if you really were evil, you could look at who connected to Anonymizer and then who connected to another site at the same time and do a cross-reference and figure it out that way.
[20:48.420 --> 20:49.980]  But that's hypothetical.
[20:51.300 --> 20:53.480]  It's www.anonymizer.com.
[20:53.600 --> 20:55.400]  If you can't spell Anonymizer, you shouldn't be on the net.
[20:55.600 --> 20:57.940]  There are several ways that you can spell Anonymizer and they all work.
[20:58.180 --> 20:59.000]  I doubt that.
[20:59.100 --> 21:01.040]  I've seen some pretty creative ways of spelling Anonymizer.
[21:01.140 --> 21:01.260]  Okay.
[21:01.320 --> 21:02.200]  Well, that's probably granted.
[21:02.340 --> 21:03.920]  But the three ways that I've tried it, it works.
[21:04.040 --> 21:05.100]  They've registered all the domains.
[21:06.200 --> 21:06.660]  That's good.
[21:06.760 --> 21:08.660]  Anyway, they're blocked for the following reasons.
[21:08.820 --> 21:16.200]  And I don't know why they're blocked at all because all they do is, like you say, it's a web proxy, violence slash profanity, partial nudity and art.
[21:16.480 --> 21:17.300]  Oh, you know what this is?
[21:17.640 --> 21:18.920]  Partial nudity and art.
[21:19.060 --> 21:20.260]  I mean, that's great right there.
[21:20.340 --> 21:21.720]  You block because it's art.
[21:21.860 --> 21:28.180]  How much do you want to bet when they were trying to compile the list of evil things, people were using Anonymizer?
[21:28.700 --> 21:35.940]  And as the software was tracking it, everything that came through Anonymizer is now associated with Anonymizer, according to this cybernaut.
[21:35.940 --> 21:40.840]  Now, there's also full nudity, sexual acts slash text.
[21:41.140 --> 21:44.880]  I guess it's sexual text, not just text, because that would be kind of silly to ban that.
[21:45.360 --> 21:46.280]  Yeah, and the next one proves it.
[21:46.360 --> 21:48.140]  Gross depictions slash text.
[21:49.180 --> 21:51.400]  Racist slash ethnic intolerance.
[21:52.580 --> 21:53.840]  Satanism and cults.
[21:55.040 --> 21:56.380]  That leaves us right out there.
[21:56.500 --> 21:57.760]  I mean, we're a cult, aren't we?
[22:00.040 --> 22:01.600]  Cult of the...
[22:02.300 --> 22:04.480]  You're the one wearing the priest outfit here, right?
[22:05.300 --> 22:05.760]  All right.
[22:05.820 --> 22:06.360]  Hey, whoa, whoa, whoa.
[22:06.360 --> 22:08.680]  Got your little minions out there, you know, following everywhere.
[22:10.320 --> 22:11.720]  Drugs and drug culture.
[22:12.600 --> 22:12.780]  Ooh.
[22:13.320 --> 22:14.300]  We're a drug culture?
[22:14.820 --> 22:15.180]  Militants...
[22:15.180 --> 22:16.160]  No, this is Anonymizer.
[22:16.580 --> 22:17.320]  Oh, I'm sorry, Anonymous.
[22:17.740 --> 22:18.100]  Militants...
[22:18.100 --> 22:18.720]  Stay with it here.
[22:18.780 --> 22:20.500]  Militants slash extremists, they got that one too.
[22:21.380 --> 22:22.100]  Sex education.
[22:22.680 --> 22:24.520]  They block it for sex education.
[22:24.880 --> 22:27.900]  Well, what's the difference between that and the full frontal nudity?
[22:27.900 --> 22:28.460]  I don't know.
[22:28.720 --> 22:29.420]  I mean, it's different.
[22:29.520 --> 22:32.440]  It's a different category, but they actually block something just because it's sex education.
[22:32.440 --> 22:34.200]  That tells you where these people come from right there.
[22:34.900 --> 22:36.480]  Illegal activity slash gambling again.
[22:36.700 --> 22:37.880]  And, finally, alcohol.
[22:38.180 --> 22:38.460]  Woo-hoo!
[22:39.440 --> 22:42.740]  Yes, it's blocked because it contains alcohol or references to alcohol.
[22:44.600 --> 22:45.160]  All right.
[22:45.300 --> 22:48.720]  And the Cult of the Dead Cow, speaking of cults, has released a press release.
[22:48.840 --> 22:49.680]  Just got this yesterday.
[22:50.500 --> 22:51.860]  Comes straight from the Death Vegetable.
[22:52.240 --> 22:53.240]  Minister of Propaganda.
[22:54.440 --> 22:55.600]  Don't worry, Windows users.
[22:55.780 --> 22:57.880]  Everything will be O2K.
[22:59.340 --> 23:04.280]  Of course, B-O-2K being back orifice 2000, which was released at DEF CON last weekend.
[23:05.180 --> 23:12.880]  The Cult of the Dead Cow publicly challenges Microsoft Corporation to voluntarily recall all copies of its systems management server network software.
[23:13.140 --> 23:19.520]  In addition, CDC calls for the antivirus industry to respond with signature scanning for SMS files.
[23:20.540 --> 23:22.420]  Hypocrisy is such an ugly word.
[23:22.420 --> 23:26.360]  So, instead, why don't we just chalk this one up to do what we say, not what we do?
[23:26.840 --> 23:31.860]  Microsoft evidently dislikes our new tool so much that they've taken to complaining about one of its key features.
[23:31.860 --> 23:33.840]  We're talking about back orifice 2000.
[23:34.080 --> 23:37.520]  And the feature in question is its stealth mode.
[23:37.840 --> 23:41.880]  Microsoft has claimed that B-O-2K is a malicious tool with no legitimate use.
[23:42.200 --> 23:50.700]  Their primary evidence is B-O-2K's stealth feature, which gives you the option to run the server on the remote machine without it being evident to anybody sitting at that machine.
[23:50.700 --> 23:54.420]  In fact, here's what they're saying right now on the Microsoft Security Advisor website.
[23:54.980 --> 24:00.800]  B-O-2K is a program that, when installed on a Windows computer, allows the computer to be remotely controlled by another user.
[24:01.020 --> 24:03.800]  Remote control software is not malicious in and of itself.
[24:04.020 --> 24:08.340]  In fact, legitimate remote control software packages are available for use by system administrators.
[24:08.340 --> 24:13.220]  What is different about B-O-2K is that it is intended to be used for malicious purposes.
[24:13.340 --> 24:13.780]  And it's free.
[24:14.280 --> 24:18.720]  Yes, and includes stealth behavior that has no purpose other than to make it difficult to detect.
[24:18.720 --> 24:18.720]  What?
[24:19.360 --> 24:21.300]  It's driving them crazy down there at Microsoft.
[24:21.300 --> 24:22.160]  They can't find it.
[24:23.480 --> 24:26.020]  Now, this is back to CDC here.
[24:26.120 --> 24:29.000]  We can see that on its face, this sounds like a valid criticism.
[24:29.520 --> 24:35.760]  Being able to operate a remote admin tool without the person at the other end knowing that it's running on the machine seems downright devious.
[24:36.220 --> 24:41.760]  Keep in mind that B-O-2K's stealth feature is an option, which is in fact disabled by default.
[24:42.400 --> 24:43.740]  Maybe Microsoft is right.
[24:43.880 --> 24:49.540]  Maybe the stealth feature in and of itself is enough to brand it a hacker tool with no redeeming social value.
[24:50.660 --> 24:55.000]  But then, what are we to make of systems management server, SMS?
[24:55.760 --> 24:58.500]  SMS is Microsoft's remote admin tool for Windows.
[24:58.500 --> 25:02.220]  As it happens, SMS has a nearly identical stealth feature.
[25:02.760 --> 25:07.740]  As a matter of fact, they explain this feature in a Word document available from the Microsoft website.
[25:07.740 --> 25:07.980]  Security.
[25:09.140 --> 25:16.720]  Of all the operations that systems management server allows you to do on a client, remote control is possibly the most dangerous in terms of security.
[25:17.500 --> 25:24.300]  Once an administrator is remote controlling a client, he has as many rights and access to that machine as if he were sitting at it.
[25:25.060 --> 25:31.280]  Added to this, there is also the possibility of carrying out a remote control session without the user at the client being aware of it.
[25:31.280 --> 25:38.920]  Thus, it is important to understand the different security options available and also to understand the legal implications of using some of them in certain jurisdictions.
[25:39.960 --> 25:41.440]  Visible and audible indicators.
[25:41.660 --> 25:48.740]  It is possible to configure a remote control from a state where there is never any visible or audible indication that a remote control session is underway.
[25:48.820 --> 25:54.320]  It has been made this flexible due to customer demands ranging from one end of the spectrum to the other.
[25:54.320 --> 26:05.640]  When configuring the options available in the remote tools, client, agent, properties, do notice must also be taken of company policy and local laws about what level of unannounced and unacknowledged intrusion is permitted.
[26:05.940 --> 26:06.680]  Notice that?
[26:07.460 --> 26:12.060]  Microsoft's own tool has the same evil capability as BO2K.
[26:12.600 --> 26:15.540]  Now, Microsoft did not invent surreptitious desktop surveillance.
[26:15.540 --> 26:18.100]  There are other products on the market that perform these functions.
[26:18.100 --> 26:25.920]  Microsoft is just the biggest supplier of the technology as SMS comes bundled with each copy of BackOffice.
[26:26.580 --> 26:28.820]  Not to be confused with BackOffice.
[26:29.280 --> 26:36.760]  Why is it that Microsoft can offer a tool having this illegitimate functionality without any moral qualms, but when we do it, they throw a hissy fit?
[26:37.160 --> 26:38.220]  Well, we have a hunch.
[26:38.620 --> 26:42.980]  Microsoft wants to keep everybody talking about the evil software from us crazy computer hackers.
[26:42.980 --> 26:49.720]  So they paint BO2K as a dangerous application with no constructive uses, says Reed Fleming of the CDC.
[26:50.080 --> 26:51.320]  We beg to differ.
[26:52.380 --> 26:57.280]  BO2K doesn't exploit any bugs in the Windows operating system that Microsoft is willing to categorize as such.
[26:57.400 --> 27:04.700]  So in order to convince the public that BO2K is a solely destructive tool, Microsoft is forced to criticize the tool's feature set.
[27:05.080 --> 27:10.240]  Evidently, whoever dreamed up this press strategy was unaware of systems management server and its stealth feature.
[27:10.800 --> 27:12.320]  Of course, there's another possibility.
[27:13.060 --> 27:15.300]  Microsoft sells SMS for cash money.
[27:16.100 --> 27:17.580]  Meanwhile, BO2K is free.
[27:17.920 --> 27:19.960]  Oh, could this be what I was alluding to before?
[27:20.140 --> 27:20.660]  It could be.
[27:21.100 --> 27:25.140]  It's also open source and better constructed any way you measure it.
[27:25.220 --> 27:27.300]  Size, efficiency, functionality, security.
[27:27.540 --> 27:28.160]  It looks good, too.
[27:28.320 --> 27:28.480]  Yeah.
[27:28.920 --> 27:30.140]  And it impresses people.
[27:30.340 --> 27:30.560]  Yes.
[27:30.920 --> 27:34.980]  Maybe this is just another example of Microsoft's alleged anti-competitiveness.
[27:37.300 --> 27:42.520]  Bo2K, like SMS, is a powerful software tool, says Count Zero of the CDC.
[27:43.220 --> 27:44.960]  When Count Zero speaks, you listen, all right?
[27:45.880 --> 27:46.320]  Oh, yes.
[27:46.420 --> 27:46.580]  Okay.
[27:47.400 --> 27:52.040]  Like any powerful tool, it can be used either responsibly or irresponsibly.
[27:52.160 --> 27:55.640]  For Microsoft to claim that BO2K has no legitimate purpose is ridiculous.
[27:55.900 --> 28:03.160]  Their own SMS tool has nearly the same functionality as BO2K, and Microsoft is happy to let you pay $1,000 plus for it.
[28:04.000 --> 28:13.840]  Regardless of their motivations, Microsoft is selling software which does many of the same things as BackOrifice 2000, including their pernicious ability to run hidden from the user.
[28:14.000 --> 28:20.160]  And if stealth mode is what makes BO2K a malicious program, then Microsoft's system management server is a malicious program, too.
[28:20.660 --> 28:28.820]  Consequently, we challenge Microsoft to recall all copies of the SMS administration tool because its feature set contains stealth capability.
[28:28.820 --> 28:33.200]  This feature clearly illustrates that their software has no legitimate use.
[28:33.460 --> 28:39.120]  Furthermore, we urge all antivirus vendors to include signatures for SMS in their scanner utilities.
[28:39.840 --> 28:41.000]  Two points for Veggie.
[28:41.260 --> 28:51.380]  And if you're interested in downloading BackOrifice 2000, don't forget to fill out the form that you have to fill out beforehand stating your allegiance to the country and all that kind of business.
[28:51.380 --> 28:51.820]  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[28:51.820 --> 28:52.300]  It's important.
[28:53.080 --> 28:53.880]  They need to know.
[28:54.020 --> 28:54.540]  What country is it?
[28:54.880 --> 28:57.540]  www.bo2k.com.
[28:58.320 --> 29:01.340]  So, uh, hurry, beat the rush, head on over there.
[29:02.240 --> 29:04.340]  And that's the, uh, the situation from there.
[29:05.600 --> 29:08.960]  It's quite a, quite a thrill seeing that get released to the, to the public.
[29:09.280 --> 29:09.400]  Oh, yeah.
[29:09.400 --> 29:13.420]  And I'm pretty happy that, uh, so many people got the word out.
[29:13.580 --> 29:14.620]  It's more of a circus, actually.
[29:14.800 --> 29:15.460]  It was a circus.
[29:16.020 --> 29:16.760]  Definitely was.
[29:16.980 --> 29:17.660]  Cows and everything.
[29:18.200 --> 29:18.720]  All right.
[29:18.820 --> 29:19.740]  This is Off the Hook.
[29:19.840 --> 29:22.600]  We'll be taking phone calls, 212-209-2900.
[29:22.920 --> 29:27.460]  And, you know, we would be remiss if we did not mention something that, uh, is incredibly important.
[29:27.480 --> 29:32.740]  And I'm sure some of you have, uh, have been hearing snippets of this, uh, throughout the course of the last week.
[29:32.800 --> 29:36.240]  In fact, this, this happened just about a week ago as we were on the air last week.
[29:36.280 --> 29:37.280]  I had no idea this was happening.
[29:37.380 --> 29:43.240]  In fact, I learned about it as I was driving across the desert going back to Las Vegas from, uh, from Los Angeles.
[29:43.420 --> 29:47.580]  And that, of course, is the shutting down of our sister radio station in Berkeley, KPFA.
[29:47.660 --> 29:50.320]  Uh, unfortunately, by Pacifica.
[29:50.640 --> 29:52.520]  And, uh, it's really a bizarre story.
[29:52.660 --> 29:58.700]  I suggest those of you on the net check it out by going over to www.savepacifica.net.
[29:59.420 --> 30:01.380]  It's unbelievable what's going on out there.
[30:01.500 --> 30:07.640]  Basically, uh, a newscaster was dragged off the air by armed security guards.
[30:08.580 --> 30:09.640]  Live on the air.
[30:09.780 --> 30:12.700]  I mean, this, this, you can't write better, better scripts than this.
[30:13.200 --> 30:21.480]  Live on the air, dragged off by armed security guards because, because he aired a program critical of Pacifica.
[30:21.540 --> 30:26.060]  Now, that's, that's the kind of nonsense that, uh, we really don't need.
[30:26.340 --> 30:32.580]  Here at WBAI, I like to, I like to think of this place as, um, kind of like the equivalent of Montenegro, you know.
[30:33.060 --> 30:34.380]  We had this whole big war.
[30:34.560 --> 30:35.300]  Anybody remember the war?
[30:35.400 --> 30:37.300]  It was only a month ago in Yugoslavia.
[30:37.300 --> 30:40.380]  Remember, we were over there bombing, bombing all kinds of people.
[30:41.040 --> 30:46.260]  And there's this one part of Yugoslavia that's, uh, it's, it's the second republic.
[30:46.440 --> 30:47.900]  We have Serbia and we have Montenegro.
[30:48.020 --> 30:49.620]  Montenegro, part of Yugoslavia.
[30:49.820 --> 30:54.980]  But, they openly criticize, openly criticize what is going on.
[30:55.120 --> 30:57.260]  And somehow, somehow these people survive.
[30:57.580 --> 31:00.260]  Somehow, they're not bombed into the Stone Age.
[31:00.380 --> 31:02.560]  Somehow, the tanks don't roll in.
[31:02.560 --> 31:05.460]  And it's because, they value their freedom.
[31:05.600 --> 31:07.420]  They value their point of view.
[31:08.000 --> 31:09.520]  And they are also the hope.
[31:09.720 --> 31:13.180]  And I like to think that here at WBAI, we kind of stand out in that way.
[31:13.800 --> 31:15.420]  Because we speak our minds.
[31:16.200 --> 31:23.640]  And I have nothing but praise for the people around here, including the management, who, uh, really seem to get it, as far as what this radio station is all about.
[31:24.140 --> 31:26.420]  Uh, I've been here just over ten years.
[31:27.160 --> 31:31.660]  And never once has somebody stepped in and said, you're not allowed to talk about this.
[31:31.660 --> 31:33.640]  You're not allowed to do this kind of a program.
[31:34.120 --> 31:36.140]  We don't have people micromanaging us.
[31:36.260 --> 31:39.560]  We don't have people saying, hey, you know, this is too controversial.
[31:39.760 --> 31:42.960]  This is something that, uh, we don't want to get out there.
[31:43.620 --> 31:47.400]  Here at WBAI, we trust our programmers.
[31:47.720 --> 31:49.660]  We trust the people who go out over the airwaves.
[31:49.760 --> 31:52.140]  And that is the only way community radio can work.
[31:52.280 --> 31:53.660]  You start messing with that.
[31:53.760 --> 32:02.960]  You start looking over people's shoulders and telling them what to say and what to do and how better to do their job and how to reach demographics and all that kind of garbage that commercial radio is known for.
[32:03.380 --> 32:04.500]  And you destroy it.
[32:04.660 --> 32:06.760]  You destroy it so incredibly quickly.
[32:07.380 --> 32:10.500]  And I fear, I really fear that's what's happening out in California.
[32:11.140 --> 32:13.460]  We can, uh, keep track of the situation.
[32:13.460 --> 32:14.720]  We can watch things here.
[32:15.120 --> 32:17.980]  And above all, we can keep this an issue.
[32:18.200 --> 32:20.300]  Now, technically, there's, there's talk about this.
[32:20.400 --> 32:21.300]  I want to clear up some confusion.
[32:21.460 --> 32:25.880]  There's, there's something known as the, the dirty laundry, uh, rule here.
[32:26.420 --> 32:28.120]  And there's a very good reason for that.
[32:28.440 --> 32:37.540]  You don't want people going on the air talking about how the guy who was on before you left his coffee cup on the, on the, on the, on the console that really annoys you, you know?
[32:37.660 --> 32:40.540]  And people should learn how to, how to behave, how not to be slobs.
[32:40.600 --> 32:41.320]  Of course, that didn't happen.
[32:41.400 --> 32:42.120]  I'm just making it up.
[32:43.000 --> 32:44.200]  I can tell people are getting worried.
[32:44.320 --> 32:45.640]  All right, no, I'm, that, that didn't happen.
[32:45.800 --> 32:48.720]  But I'm bringing that up because that is bad radio.
[32:49.080 --> 32:50.580]  That is, people don't want to hear that.
[32:50.660 --> 32:55.660]  People don't care if, if, if, if somebody is, is, is, is using your locker or your mailbox or something like that, you know?
[32:55.800 --> 33:03.040]  They don't care about how somebody's show sounded this morning and you didn't think the show sounded good, so you're going to comment on it on, on your particular show.
[33:03.140 --> 33:04.880]  That is not what community radio is.
[33:05.040 --> 33:11.140]  But something like this, which has made national news, national news, it has been in many newspapers.
[33:11.540 --> 33:15.080]  Every single Bay Area newspaper has, has had something about this.
[33:15.860 --> 33:16.920]  That's not dirty laundry.
[33:17.120 --> 33:17.660]  That is news.
[33:18.220 --> 33:20.520]  And we claim here to cover the news.
[33:21.200 --> 33:22.880]  And that's what we have to do.
[33:22.880 --> 33:24.060]  We are obligated to do that.
[33:24.780 --> 33:27.040]  Sometimes it strikes uncomfortably close to home.
[33:27.160 --> 33:31.220]  Sometimes it might even seem as if we're in the wrong.
[33:31.400 --> 33:40.080]  And I certainly think in this case there are elements that are in the wrong and that need to be addressed, that need to be corrected if the entire organization is to be saved.
[33:40.740 --> 33:44.000]  We're on very strenuous ground right now.
[33:44.060 --> 33:48.340]  And there are some things happening that are really perplexing and really disturbing.
[33:48.840 --> 34:02.900]  Case in point, and you can check this out right now, go over to the Pacifica webpage, www.pacifica.org, and you will see that there's a whole section there having to do with various programs.
[34:02.980 --> 34:04.560]  In fact, two programs in particular.
[34:04.740 --> 34:13.900]  The widely heralded Pacifica Evening News, which you should listen to every day and listen to the archived ones that are up in real audio there.
[34:14.280 --> 34:17.480]  There's another program, though, that we produce here called Democracy Now!
[34:18.380 --> 34:20.820]  On July 14th, Democracy Now!
[34:20.900 --> 34:28.580]  did a piece on the whole Pacifica controversy on what's going on in California and the shutting down of KPFA.
[34:28.920 --> 34:34.540]  Which, by the way, you can also listen to that if you go to their website, www.kpfa.org.
[34:34.540 --> 34:35.800]  You'll hear what's going over the air now.
[34:36.240 --> 34:38.760]  Just a bunch of tapes, a bunch of canned music.
[34:38.760 --> 34:41.160]  It's been going on like that for a week now, and it's really sad.
[34:41.760 --> 34:43.880]  Because they're stationed very much like us.
[34:44.660 --> 34:45.860]  Very much like us.
[34:47.220 --> 34:51.300]  On July 14th, a piece aired on Democracy Now!
[34:51.480 --> 34:54.540]  having to do with this whole controversy because it's news.
[34:56.060 --> 35:00.820]  If you go to their website, you'll see there's an archive of every single edition of Democracy Now!
[35:01.360 --> 35:05.760]  with the exception with the exception of that particular day.
[35:05.900 --> 35:14.320]  If you go to that day, you get a little notice saying that we did not receive any audio for Democracy Now!
[35:14.360 --> 35:14.940]  from Pacifica.
[35:15.000 --> 35:16.480]  That show is currently unavailable.
[35:16.680 --> 35:20.640]  I mean, this is the kind of stuff that you see in places like Yugoslavia.
[35:20.740 --> 35:25.140]  This is the kind of stuff where people try to silence the opposition.
[35:25.140 --> 35:27.720]  They try to silence anything that might be critical.
[35:27.720 --> 35:29.440]  And it just... it never works.
[35:30.060 --> 35:31.120]  It never works.
[35:31.220 --> 35:32.700]  The word always gets out there somehow.
[35:34.820 --> 35:36.840]  I shouldn't have to say this to people.
[35:36.980 --> 35:38.180]  I mean, it's so obvious.
[35:38.180 --> 35:51.560]  So, every time I go to that webpage and I see that that particular edition is just not there, and every time I hear words reporting that when that particular edition of the show was airing on stations around the country, it was pulled off the air, except for this radio station.
[35:51.760 --> 35:52.200]  Thank God.
[35:54.180 --> 35:55.220]  It's so distressing.
[35:55.440 --> 35:58.960]  It's so incredibly frustrating and annoying.
[35:59.900 --> 36:01.560]  So again, check out the webpages.
[36:02.960 --> 36:13.460]  There's a site, www.realradio.org, where you can tune back and forth from this radio station, WBAI, over to KPFA, over to a couple of other non-commercial radio stations.
[36:13.480 --> 36:14.720]  You can hear what's going on.
[36:15.240 --> 36:25.160]  But the site, which is really amazing, and this is a truly incredible site, is www.savepacifica.net, because there's just so much information here.
[36:25.320 --> 36:30.260]  I printed out the main page before, and it's something like 20 pages long.
[36:31.060 --> 36:40.120]  And just every news article about everything, every bit of audio that they have, including the sound of Dennis Bernstein being kicked off the air.
[36:40.460 --> 36:41.780]  And that was really amazing.
[36:41.780 --> 36:44.600]  That was something that was pretty shocking.
[36:45.920 --> 36:47.480]  So, we stick together.
[36:47.680 --> 36:49.360]  We keep each other informed.
[36:49.580 --> 36:57.620]  If people have any questions, you can always ask us, because we here in Montenegro, we care about freedom of speech.
[36:57.620 --> 36:59.480]  And I sure hope it stays that way.
[36:59.860 --> 37:04.580]  212-209-2900, and you can write to us, of course, at OTH at 2600.com.
[37:04.900 --> 37:11.840]  We're here mostly to talk about technology, but occasionally the real world filters in, and we can't ignore it when that happens.
[37:12.980 --> 37:22.860]  All right, I'm also asked that there will be a demonstration outside our studios, outside the building, Friday afternoon, 5.30 p.m., 120 Wall Street.
[37:23.180 --> 37:32.300]  Again, a lot of people are saying nasty things about people around here, but my personal view is that we understand how things are here at the radio station.
[37:32.420 --> 37:37.200]  Everybody here understands the value of this place, and I trust those people.
[37:38.720 --> 37:45.640]  So, if we work together, I'm sure that what happens out there in California will not spread to here, and we will help them get back on their feet again.
[37:45.640 --> 37:49.660]  So, 212-209-2900, let's go to the phones.
[37:49.860 --> 37:50.900]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[37:52.240 --> 37:52.680]  Hello?
[37:52.920 --> 37:53.480]  Yes, go ahead.
[37:53.720 --> 37:54.140]  Speak up.
[37:54.480 --> 37:55.520]  I wanted to...
[37:55.960 --> 38:02.280]  I'm new to the computer world, and I was wondering what you would suggest for the best internet connection.
[38:03.080 --> 38:04.600]  The best internet connection.
[38:04.760 --> 38:05.200]  Well, it depends.
[38:05.340 --> 38:05.980]  There's so many...
[38:05.980 --> 38:08.100]  Do you know AOL, Sprint, or...
[38:08.100 --> 38:10.680]  What is it that you want out of the net?
[38:11.320 --> 38:16.100]  I just want to really learn a lot, and maybe go into the chat rooms, and just...
[38:16.100 --> 38:29.640]  I'm new to the whole computer thing, so I had AOL for a few weeks, and I was getting bumped off a lot, just like every 10 minutes, and I'm wondering if the other ones are just as bad, or...
[38:29.640 --> 38:33.260]  Isaac's having trouble constraining himself wanting to answer this question, so go ahead.
[38:33.420 --> 38:34.540]  I want to answer this question?
[38:34.560 --> 38:34.980]  Go ahead, yeah.
[38:35.280 --> 38:36.200]  Oh, I'm sorry.
[38:36.400 --> 38:37.420]  Bouncing up and down your chair.
[38:37.640 --> 38:38.900]  I think that's what you wanted to do.
[38:39.020 --> 38:43.200]  Go with somebody who's local to you, and who...
[38:43.200 --> 38:44.100]  I'm in New York City.
[38:44.260 --> 38:44.980]  You're in New York City?
[38:45.320 --> 38:46.820]  Well, there's lots of people local to you.
[38:46.820 --> 38:48.960]  There's tons of ISPs around here.
[38:49.060 --> 38:51.320]  At this point, we can't even say...
[38:51.320 --> 38:55.220]  We can't even give names out, because there are so many, and it would seem like we were playing favorites.
[38:55.380 --> 38:58.660]  Probably the best thing to do is look in the yellow pages now, under Internet Service Providers.
[38:58.800 --> 38:59.420]  Works quite well.
[38:59.580 --> 39:08.040]  And I'm sure you'll find a lot of people offering exactly what you're looking for, and if one doesn't work, try it after a month.
[39:08.160 --> 39:09.620]  If it doesn't work, then move on to somebody else.
[39:09.680 --> 39:15.320]  If you're just looking for email, though, just looking for a way of communicating, you don't have to really go crazy with that.
[39:15.500 --> 39:16.900]  There's all kinds of free services out there.
[39:17.100 --> 39:17.800]  Hotmail, Juno.
[39:18.500 --> 39:19.860]  Juno, I believe you dial into, right?
[39:20.060 --> 39:20.160]  Yep.
[39:20.460 --> 39:21.840]  And Hotmail, you can't dial into.
[39:22.080 --> 39:23.660]  But Juno, you can connect to on the net as well.
[39:23.860 --> 39:29.240]  So you've got to do a little bit of research, but you can definitely find some answers.
[39:29.340 --> 39:33.340]  Also, tune in to the Personal Computer Show, which is on in exactly 24 hours.
[39:34.420 --> 39:36.200]  Well, 24 hours and...
[39:36.200 --> 39:37.140]  40 minutes ago.
[39:37.300 --> 39:38.260]  Negative 39 minutes.
[39:38.260 --> 39:40.720]  Yeah, but they're on the same time slot as us, except on Wednesday.
[39:40.960 --> 39:42.820]  So that's the Personal Computer Show.
[39:42.960 --> 39:44.260]  They answer all kinds of questions like that.
[39:44.340 --> 39:44.840]  Thanks for the call.
[39:45.020 --> 39:45.720]  Let's move on.
[39:45.840 --> 39:46.160]  Good evening.
[39:46.280 --> 39:46.740]  You're on the air.
[39:47.260 --> 39:49.880]  All right, can you tell me what frame relay is?
[39:50.880 --> 39:51.600]  Frame relay.
[39:51.700 --> 39:52.660]  Who wants to tackle this one?
[39:53.360 --> 39:53.900]  You want it?
[39:54.100 --> 39:54.760]  I'll take it.
[39:54.760 --> 39:55.860]  Go ahead, take it, take it.
[39:56.000 --> 39:56.260]  It's yours.
[39:56.860 --> 40:01.920]  Frame relay is also called sliding windows, I believe, in some areas, the older term.
[40:02.880 --> 40:11.180]  Basically, you are guaranteed a certain amount of bandwidth, and you can get more bandwidth if you so require it, but you're not guaranteed that bandwidth.
[40:12.200 --> 40:13.620]  Let's see, I'm not explaining this too well.
[40:13.820 --> 40:24.540]  You might be guaranteed maybe 750 kilobytes of bandwidth for your web server or whatever, and you're sharing this big pipe with a lot of other people.
[40:25.440 --> 40:33.040]  If nobody else is using their bandwidth, you can use their bandwidth, but you're not guaranteed that that bandwidth will be available to you.
[40:34.000 --> 40:34.800]  Does that make sense?
[40:34.860 --> 40:35.900]  Come close to answering your question.
[40:36.180 --> 40:39.040]  No, I have to, you know, consider it.
[40:39.100 --> 40:43.380]  I just can't digest everything in one second, but at least that's a starting point.
[40:43.380 --> 40:57.940]  Now, I just want to find out, in terms of DSL, from several telecommunications-oriented magazines I'm reading, there are several options for DSL.
[40:58.100 --> 41:18.740]  Now, I'm probably not quoting this exactly right because I don't have the literal references right in front of me, but I think one is PPPOE, then there's PPPOATM, and then there are other things like broadband modem access protocol and all the others.
[41:18.920 --> 41:33.760]  Had you had any experiences with those, and how would you differentiate those if you were actually looking for the best point-to-point protocol, you know, the DSL access model?
[41:34.200 --> 41:35.260]  Are you an end user?
[41:35.940 --> 41:40.160]  Well, I'm going to be an end user in the imminent future.
[41:40.400 --> 41:43.780]  So you're not interested in serving webpages to anyone or anything like that?
[41:43.780 --> 41:50.980]  Well, yeah, I'm going to be doing a whole panoply of things, both as an end user and, of course, serving.
[41:51.220 --> 41:58.440]  So I'm pretty much digesting a big chunk of the technology at this very moment that we're speaking.
[41:58.440 --> 42:07.380]  I'm trying to also get some oral feedback from all of the written things that I've been inundated with.
[42:07.560 --> 42:18.500]  So could you possibly decipher between those options and give me some sort of just general overview on their appropriateness?
[42:19.300 --> 42:25.000]  Well, they're all very high-end, very high-speed connections of different sorts.
[42:25.000 --> 42:27.520]  I do not have personal experience with DSLs.
[42:27.700 --> 42:28.420]  Isaac, do you?
[42:29.240 --> 42:30.100]  No, no, no.
[42:30.300 --> 42:30.620]  Okay.
[42:31.220 --> 42:31.920]  That's about what I figured.
[42:32.020 --> 42:32.540]  You woke him up.
[42:34.160 --> 42:35.140]  Just go back to sleep.
[42:36.600 --> 42:37.980]  DSLs, they're very fast.
[42:38.240 --> 42:39.920]  Everything you're talking about is really fast.
[42:40.120 --> 42:47.700]  You basically don't need anything, in my humble opinion, above a 56K modem, and you can stick with that until you learn more things.
[42:47.800 --> 42:49.100]  I don't even know where to go.
[42:49.340 --> 42:50.720]  Yeah, a lot of people make that mistake.
[42:50.720 --> 42:56.480]  They jump into the highest possible speed, the highest-priced computer, when they're just starting out.
[42:56.660 --> 42:58.060]  Start out, you know, slowly.
[42:58.320 --> 42:59.020]  Build up to it.
[42:59.080 --> 43:01.220]  And then you realize what you need, what you don't like.
[43:01.700 --> 43:07.580]  You know, why get, you know, a 500 megahertz Pentium machine when you realize in the end that you like a Mac?
[43:08.160 --> 43:08.780]  You know, it's...
[43:08.780 --> 43:09.560]  Hey, wait a second.
[43:09.700 --> 43:12.360]  That was a computer racist comment.
[43:12.420 --> 43:12.860]  I'm sorry.
[43:12.960 --> 43:13.400]  I'm sorry.
[43:14.220 --> 43:16.680]  I'll go to politically correct school and get that one right.
[43:16.800 --> 43:17.200]  Yeah, okay.
[43:17.320 --> 43:17.840]  You would do that.
[43:17.840 --> 43:19.540]  All right, let's take some more phone calls.
[43:19.600 --> 43:20.840]  212-209-2900.
[43:20.920 --> 43:21.260]  Good evening.
[43:21.420 --> 43:21.860]  You're on the air.
[43:22.240 --> 43:22.800]  Hi, Emmanuel.
[43:22.940 --> 43:23.360]  How are you doing?
[43:23.860 --> 43:24.760]  I just noticed...
[43:24.760 --> 43:28.360]  Last week, you were talking about how Sprint charges you for rings.
[43:28.780 --> 43:36.220]  I just noticed that when I got my Sprint PCS phone bill, they charge me like, okay, the time that I call the radio station.
[43:37.080 --> 43:40.760]  I call, and when you pick up, it's like 845, let's say.
[43:41.080 --> 43:46.960]  I got charged from my phone bill at 845 for a 15-minute call, even though I talked to you for only a minute.
[43:46.960 --> 43:49.820]  So it sounds like I was wrong, I guess.
[43:49.840 --> 43:50.440]  They do charge.
[43:50.560 --> 43:51.580]  But, you know, I tested this.
[43:51.640 --> 43:55.180]  I tested this months ago where I called something, let it ring, and hung up.
[43:55.420 --> 44:01.420]  Maybe it's after a certain amount of time they just start charging you, which is really unfair, but it seems to be the case.
[44:01.420 --> 44:09.820]  And I'd like to mention, I'd like to say sort of a true story, I don't know, I guess you'd call it a poetic type of a true story.
[44:10.620 --> 44:12.220]  Um, it is the following.
[44:12.460 --> 44:12.780]  Uh-oh.
[44:12.940 --> 44:18.640]  I was working, delivering somebody's car, and I noticed one of the tires in the car was low.
[44:19.000 --> 44:21.820]  So I go to a gas station to get some air for the tires.
[44:21.880 --> 44:23.660]  This is scary, because this just happened to me tonight.
[44:24.080 --> 44:24.360]  Really?
[44:24.600 --> 44:26.420]  Yeah, wait, which tire was it?
[44:26.540 --> 44:27.780]  Well, I don't know which tire it was.
[44:27.860 --> 44:29.520]  How can you not know which tire it was?
[44:29.520 --> 44:29.980]  No, no, no.
[44:30.060 --> 44:30.980]  This happened a while ago.
[44:31.200 --> 44:31.920]  You don't remember?
[44:32.180 --> 44:33.620]  I remember every time I got a flat.
[44:33.780 --> 44:35.080]  You know, once I got two flats at once.
[44:35.200 --> 44:35.720]  But it's not a flat.
[44:36.160 --> 44:37.300]  Well, low air.
[44:37.460 --> 44:37.960]  Okay, fine.
[44:38.140 --> 44:38.280]  Low air.
[44:38.420 --> 44:39.000]  So I needed air.
[44:39.120 --> 44:39.640]  But guess what?
[44:39.780 --> 44:39.940]  What?
[44:40.080 --> 44:41.160]  They showed you a quarter.
[44:41.440 --> 44:42.420]  Yeah, but you know what?
[44:42.420 --> 44:45.960]  I went to a gas station today, and you might want to check this out.
[44:46.060 --> 44:50.420]  It's right there on, I think it's exit 33 or 34 on the expressway.
[44:50.520 --> 44:54.680]  You make a left-hand turn, and it's on the right-hand side, right there on Northern Boulevard.
[44:55.200 --> 44:55.860]  Free air.
[44:56.120 --> 44:56.960]  Free air for anybody.
[44:57.260 --> 44:59.880]  Just go there and suck up all the air you want.
[45:00.460 --> 45:03.000]  Then come back next week and spew it out for us.
[45:03.040 --> 45:06.660]  Well, yeah, Rebel does have a tendency to be able to take up a lot of air time.
[45:06.900 --> 45:07.120]  Yes.
[45:08.200 --> 45:08.680]  Good evening.
[45:08.760 --> 45:09.160]  You're on the air.
[45:09.300 --> 45:12.040]  How would you know where the free air is if you're in New Jersey?
[45:12.320 --> 45:12.840]  You know...
[45:12.840 --> 45:13.560]  Open your lungs.
[45:13.720 --> 45:14.400]  Yeah, that's...
[45:14.400 --> 45:14.880]  I don't know.
[45:14.980 --> 45:15.500]  I don't know.
[45:16.360 --> 45:19.100]  He can't be calling us on the Sprint phone if he got on two lines there, could he?
[45:19.340 --> 45:20.440]  Unless he has every single service.
[45:20.540 --> 45:20.740]  Good evening.
[45:20.800 --> 45:21.220]  You're on the air.
[45:22.020 --> 45:22.860]  Maybe that was him, too.
[45:22.960 --> 45:23.280]  He gave up.
[45:23.440 --> 45:24.080]  Yeah, let's go over here.
[45:24.160 --> 45:24.480]  Good evening.
[45:24.600 --> 45:25.140]  You're on the air.
[45:27.040 --> 45:27.780]  Speak up, please.
[45:28.420 --> 45:28.980]  Hi, Emanuel.
[45:29.160 --> 45:29.640]  Yes, go ahead.
[45:29.920 --> 45:30.420]  Hi, wow.
[45:30.540 --> 45:31.860]  I get a great opening act, huh?
[45:32.720 --> 45:33.300]  Yeah, you sure do.
[45:33.360 --> 45:33.740]  I want to call in.
[45:33.800 --> 45:35.260]  I'm calling from California.
[45:35.620 --> 45:36.440]  California, great.
[45:36.800 --> 45:37.440]  Can you believe it?
[45:37.580 --> 45:38.840]  What part of California are you in?
[45:39.220 --> 45:41.540]  Northern California, just north of San Francisco.
[45:41.700 --> 45:42.000]  Okay.
[45:42.600 --> 45:43.840]  In San Rafael, actually.
[45:44.260 --> 45:44.600]  Uh-huh.
[45:44.880 --> 45:46.860]  Where there's absolutely nothing going on.
[45:47.300 --> 45:52.700]  I just got back from DEF CON last weekend, which was my first hacker con, believe it or not.
[45:53.660 --> 45:57.180]  And I just wanted to point out one thing that I thought was amazing.
[45:57.180 --> 45:57.860]  What's that?
[45:59.140 --> 46:01.720]  During the social engineering panel, were you there for that?
[46:01.840 --> 46:02.380]  Yes, I was there.
[46:02.560 --> 46:03.900]  I think there was only one, right?
[46:04.240 --> 46:05.360]  Yeah, I was there for that.
[46:06.060 --> 46:08.060]  It was pretty much last night there.
[46:08.360 --> 46:08.660]  Uh-huh.
[46:08.660 --> 46:11.040]  Um, they called for a full media blackout.
[46:11.560 --> 46:13.560]  Yes, I did notice that.
[46:14.060 --> 46:22.840]  And, uh, during the last group that came up, uh, for some strange reason, people were asking one of the gentlemen on stage to do something lewd.
[46:23.180 --> 46:23.560]  Uh-huh.
[46:23.560 --> 46:28.240]  And, uh, the people on the panel on the staff said, you can't do that, we're on CNN.
[46:30.020 --> 46:30.900]  Okay, I don't...
[46:30.900 --> 46:31.900]  You didn't remember...
[46:31.900 --> 46:32.540]  You didn't see that?
[46:32.580 --> 46:33.680]  Well, Porsche, have you on the panel?
[46:33.820 --> 46:34.640]  Did that actually happen?
[46:34.760 --> 46:35.840]  Yeah, I was on the panel.
[46:36.000 --> 46:37.220]  I don't remember that specifically.
[46:37.340 --> 46:42.260]  All I remember from the end of the panel was the, uh, a guy falling over and drunk and just passed out.
[46:42.260 --> 46:42.740]  all the time.
[46:42.880 --> 46:45.100]  Was that before or after this, uh, what you're talking about?
[46:45.420 --> 46:47.680]  Um, that was during that session.
[46:47.940 --> 46:49.180]  Uh, the lady who was on the panel?
[46:49.580 --> 46:50.560]  Uh, yes.
[46:50.700 --> 46:51.200]  Yes, I remember.
[46:51.480 --> 46:52.920]  Uh, it started with an L.
[46:53.040 --> 46:53.660]  I don't remember anything.
[46:54.000 --> 46:56.040]  Yeah, she said, um, you can't do that.
[46:56.040 --> 46:56.720]  We're on CNN.
[46:57.140 --> 46:58.700]  Well, that might have been a joke.
[46:58.740 --> 46:59.160]  I don't know.
[46:59.260 --> 47:02.460]  But, you know, I have a lot of, uh, problems with the way that whole thing went about.
[47:02.840 --> 47:05.420]  When we do the social engineering panels at the various H.O.P.
[47:05.780 --> 47:09.800]  conferences, it's open, you know, because we're trying to show people what social engineering is all about.
[47:09.800 --> 47:15.820]  Also, it's not about doing illegal things or, you know, phoning in bomb threats or nonsense like that.
[47:16.040 --> 47:16.180]  Yeah.
[47:16.360 --> 47:20.020]  I'd have to say, you know, most of the ideas, there were things we came up with.
[47:20.420 --> 47:22.040]  There were like, uh, Yeah, about...
[47:22.040 --> 47:22.980]  2,600 ideas.
[47:23.200 --> 47:27.200]  But they didn't use the good ones, and they, the ones they did use, they kind of messed up.
[47:27.460 --> 47:33.060]  Yeah, it was, uh, I don't know, I listened to the, uh, real audio you guys have from Beyond Hope.
[47:33.240 --> 47:33.380]  Uh-huh.
[47:33.540 --> 47:34.500]  The social engineering panel.
[47:34.600 --> 47:36.200]  You heard the Kmart incident then.
[47:36.300 --> 47:37.060]  Oh, that was great.
[47:41.040 --> 47:41.240]  It was fun.
[47:41.420 --> 47:41.640]  Yeah.
[47:41.920 --> 47:44.300]  Well, H2K, I'm sure we'll even top that.
[47:44.540 --> 47:45.560]  Yeah, I'll see you there.
[47:45.720 --> 47:46.000]  All right.
[47:46.140 --> 47:46.620]  Thanks for calling.
[47:47.160 --> 47:47.260]  Bye.
[47:47.440 --> 47:48.660]  With a really big Kmart?
[47:50.160 --> 47:51.160]  A really big Kmart?
[47:51.220 --> 47:51.340]  What?
[47:51.460 --> 47:52.920]  Well, that's the only way you could top Kmart.
[47:53.460 --> 47:53.780]  Yeah.
[47:54.000 --> 47:54.620]  Go back to sleep.
[47:54.760 --> 47:54.940]  Okay.
[47:55.480 --> 47:55.860]  Good evening.
[47:55.940 --> 47:56.400]  You're on the air.
[47:57.740 --> 47:58.460]  Speak up, please.
[47:59.160 --> 48:00.500]  Why is everyone so hesitant tonight?
[48:00.960 --> 48:01.440]  Excuse me?
[48:01.620 --> 48:02.080]  Yeah, go ahead.
[48:02.160 --> 48:02.640]  You're on the air.
[48:03.540 --> 48:04.140]  No, I'm not.
[48:04.300 --> 48:04.680]  All right.
[48:04.720 --> 48:05.000]  You're right.
[48:05.020 --> 48:05.580]  You're not on the air.
[48:05.680 --> 48:05.820]  Okay.
[48:05.900 --> 48:06.220]  Good evening.
[48:06.320 --> 48:06.880]  You're on the air.
[48:07.700 --> 48:08.140]  Hi.
[48:09.520 --> 48:11.720]  William from Manhattan calling.
[48:11.860 --> 48:16.480]  Thanks for the comments on the AI after that incident at Berkeley.
[48:16.740 --> 48:27.440]  Well, it's the very least I could do and I would hope it's the least anybody here could do because this is a very valuable place and it's something that I think weighs very heavily on our minds and I know it does on the listeners as well.
[48:27.720 --> 48:28.000]  Indeed.
[48:28.140 --> 48:40.480]  And I hadn't heard any positive statements about what's going on here in New York and it's nice to hear that this thing is not going to just incinerate all of Pacifica at least not VAI anyhow.
[48:41.020 --> 48:44.740]  Well, the important thing is to talk about it while you still have a radio station to talk about it on.
[48:44.880 --> 48:44.980]  Indeed.
[48:45.200 --> 48:46.700]  You know, that's the thing.
[48:47.340 --> 48:55.720]  I have a question about anonymity with the advent of P3 and the weakness in anonymizer that you were talking about.
[48:55.900 --> 48:59.820]  Is there any way really to anonymously surf the web?
[49:00.620 --> 49:02.260]  It depends on how...
[49:02.260 --> 49:02.700]  Sorry, go ahead.
[49:02.840 --> 49:05.980]  It depends on how desperately the people want to track you can get.
[49:06.280 --> 49:06.640]  Uh-huh.
[49:07.060 --> 49:08.140]  Who are you trying to hide from?
[49:08.400 --> 49:09.540]  I'm not trying to hide from anyone.
[49:09.720 --> 49:12.380]  I just like the idea of being able to do this anonymously.
[49:13.060 --> 49:17.020]  Hypothetically, the person who you believe who would be tracking you would happen to be...
[49:17.020 --> 49:19.440]  No, I think this person just wants to be, you know, wants to be anonymous.
[49:19.780 --> 49:20.220]  From whom?
[49:20.220 --> 49:20.720]  From everybody.
[49:21.120 --> 49:23.960]  Well, from everybody takes a hell of a lot of effort.
[49:24.360 --> 49:30.840]  I mean, everybody would include, say, the National Security Agency or would everybody include the FBI or would everybody include your mother-in-law?
[49:30.900 --> 49:38.360]  There's parents, girlfriends, boyfriends, children, government, corporations, competing ISPs, all kinds of things.
[49:38.420 --> 49:39.600]  Well, there are different levels.
[49:39.780 --> 49:43.940]  Depending on how desperately somebody wants to track you, you will be tracked.
[49:44.140 --> 49:44.340]  Uh-huh.
[49:44.340 --> 49:57.120]  You can get on either side of Anonymizer, but it's a matter of getting the compliance of a couple of ISPs, yours and whoever you're connecting to, so that you can actually track out the path that your connection would take.
[49:57.640 --> 50:05.240]  But so far as, you know, like, you're trying to evade your boss who may or may not be that technically savvy, Anonymizer is fine.
[50:06.020 --> 50:12.520]  But, you know, don't expect the FBI to start not knocking at your door because you're using Anonymizer.
[50:13.160 --> 50:16.920]  I mean, it's a matter of how desperately they want to get you.
[50:17.040 --> 50:20.800]  But why is the FBI going to start knocking on your door because of where you're cruising on the web?
[50:20.900 --> 50:21.640]  I have no idea.
[50:21.780 --> 50:23.120]  I'm just trying to, you know...
[50:23.120 --> 50:25.980]  I mean, the fact that we even think along these lines disturbs me.
[50:25.980 --> 50:27.920]  You know, cruise wherever you want to cruise.
[50:27.920 --> 50:30.160]  Look at all the bizarre sites that you want to look at.
[50:30.400 --> 50:31.200]  Have a ball.
[50:31.360 --> 50:38.120]  But, you know, as soon as you start doing things that affect other people, that hurt other people, that's obviously where, you know, other people might step in.
[50:38.240 --> 50:43.120]  It sounds like just plugging into Anonymizer will get you on the radar, Blip.
[50:43.320 --> 50:44.120]  It could very well.
[50:44.380 --> 50:46.280]  Yes, but it's a matter of who owns the radar.
[50:46.660 --> 50:47.260]  Right, right.
[50:47.520 --> 50:48.040]  Well, thanks.
[50:48.240 --> 50:52.460]  Other people could, thanks for calling, other people could be watching who goes in and out of Anonymizer.
[50:52.620 --> 50:53.220]  Of course.
[50:53.400 --> 51:01.740]  And they could say, these people are suspect for one reason or another, just like the FBI always looks at our mailing list of 2,600 and visits each and every one of the...
[51:01.740 --> 51:03.620]  Actually, no, I shouldn't say that.
[51:03.860 --> 51:04.440]  Good call.
[51:04.620 --> 51:08.380]  No, you could subscribe to the magazine and everything is fine and safe and you don't have anything to worry about.
[51:09.560 --> 51:12.960]  One more step on the Freedom bandwagon is Freedom.net.
[51:13.440 --> 51:14.800]  It's kind of like Anonymizer.
[51:15.300 --> 51:16.860]  You can read all about it, I'm sure.
[51:17.340 --> 51:24.460]  It's got kind of a lot of features that are very nice and makes for a pretty secure viewing of whatever.
[51:25.140 --> 51:26.000]  Pretty Secure Connections.
[51:26.080 --> 51:27.680]  I like the concept a lot.
[51:28.760 --> 51:32.260]  And so check that out if you're interested in anonymizing yourself.
[51:32.460 --> 51:34.660]  Freedom.net from Zero Knowledge Systems.
[51:35.100 --> 51:35.340]  Okay.
[51:35.460 --> 51:36.840]  You know they've got to be good if they've got that name.
[51:37.600 --> 51:38.140]  All right.
[51:38.340 --> 51:39.160]  It's a pretty good name, I think.
[51:39.160 --> 51:39.520]  It is.
[51:39.600 --> 51:41.560]  They really have to get that pretty easily.
[51:41.560 --> 51:46.640]  By chance, the same person who found out that you can clone GSM phones with a SIM card.
[51:46.800 --> 51:46.940]  Right.
[51:47.060 --> 51:48.700]  He's the chief cryptologist.
[51:48.880 --> 51:50.360]  He's the chief cryptologist.
[51:50.700 --> 51:51.280]  You know what I mean.
[51:51.400 --> 51:51.640]  Yes.
[51:52.480 --> 51:53.220]  Let's take a phone call.
[51:53.300 --> 51:53.520]  Good evening.
[51:53.600 --> 51:53.980]  You're on the air.
[51:54.580 --> 51:55.000]  Yes, hello.
[51:55.360 --> 51:55.740]  How are you doing?
[51:56.540 --> 51:57.400]  This is for Emmanuel.
[51:58.340 --> 52:03.220]  One serious question because of what you had mentioned about that conference you went on the West Coast.
[52:03.420 --> 52:03.680]  Uh-huh.
[52:03.780 --> 52:04.860]  But two lighter ones.
[52:05.760 --> 52:10.280]  Years ago on USB, I used to listen to a show on Saturday Night, which I'm sure you're very familiar with.
[52:10.280 --> 52:11.040]  Oh, yeah, yeah.
[52:11.140 --> 52:11.580]  Yes, okay.
[52:11.760 --> 52:13.000]  An old-time USB listener.
[52:13.260 --> 52:13.520]  Right.
[52:13.940 --> 52:15.580]  Hopefully still a current USB listener.
[52:16.220 --> 52:16.640]  Yes.
[52:16.880 --> 52:17.120]  Okay.
[52:17.560 --> 52:18.080]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[52:18.880 --> 52:20.580]  The whole litany USB P can.
[52:21.000 --> 52:21.380]  Okay.
[52:21.620 --> 52:22.180]  So what's on your mind?
[52:22.320 --> 52:22.440]  I'm married.
[52:23.660 --> 52:24.080]  Okay.
[52:24.860 --> 52:29.380]  Has anybody attempted to, I guess you can phone Albania now.
[52:29.700 --> 52:29.800]  Yeah.
[52:29.800 --> 52:31.780]  Has anybody attempted to phone Kosovo?
[52:32.620 --> 52:33.820]  Well, I think you can.
[52:33.820 --> 52:36.100]  I think since things have calmed down over there, you can get through.
[52:36.280 --> 52:40.760]  If you're looking for a challenge, the country that now is almost impossible to call as North Korea.
[52:40.940 --> 52:41.880]  I don't think you can get through there.
[52:42.040 --> 52:42.320]  Oh, no, no.
[52:42.420 --> 52:43.580]  I mean, I said, this is just light banter.
[52:43.640 --> 52:45.880]  The second one would be like Emanuel Goldstein.
[52:46.420 --> 52:48.420]  Is that like the Emanuel Goldstein from 1984?
[52:48.480 --> 52:49.740]  But now the serious question.
[52:49.980 --> 52:51.140]  You don't have to answer that second one.
[52:51.580 --> 52:52.440]  Well, again...
[52:52.440 --> 52:52.940]  The serious one is this.
[52:53.480 --> 52:55.060]  What did he mean by social engineering?
[52:55.860 --> 52:56.220]  Okay.
[52:57.120 --> 52:59.140]  We'll just skip over that first part.
[52:59.300 --> 52:59.420]  Okay.
[52:59.800 --> 53:04.680]  And talk about social engineering because the answer to the first part could be too disturbing for most people to handle.
[53:05.680 --> 53:09.780]  Social engineering, basically, it's basically lying on the phone.
[53:09.960 --> 53:11.100]  I mean, that's really what it is.
[53:11.240 --> 53:12.080]  And finding out...
[53:12.080 --> 53:13.540]  Well, that's fairly unelegance.
[53:13.840 --> 53:14.040]  All right.
[53:14.140 --> 53:15.940]  But I'm trying to make it as simple as possible.
[53:16.480 --> 53:23.500]  It's calling somebody, a stranger, total stranger, getting information out of them that they would not give you if they knew who you were or who you were not.
[53:24.020 --> 53:24.880]  That's really what it is.
[53:25.020 --> 53:28.260]  It's calling up an operator and saying, yeah, this is Charlie down in repair.
[53:28.760 --> 53:31.080]  We need the opcode on the screen right there.
[53:31.240 --> 53:33.040]  It's at, you know, on the third line.
[53:33.120 --> 53:33.940]  Can you give that to us?
[53:34.000 --> 53:39.720]  And with that information, you have more information so you can call another operator and say, yeah, I have this code, do this for me, etc., etc.
[53:40.080 --> 53:42.160]  Well, it's not necessarily only on the phone.
[53:42.460 --> 53:42.980]  No, it's true.
[53:43.060 --> 53:44.940]  You can social engineer in person, but...
[53:45.440 --> 53:47.180]  It brings a new level of difficulty.
[53:47.200 --> 53:47.820]  It does.
[53:47.960 --> 53:48.540]  It does.
[53:48.680 --> 53:51.420]  Because usually you have a paper bag over your head and people wonder what it's all about.
[53:52.120 --> 53:53.880]  It's kind of difficult.
[53:54.140 --> 53:55.060]  All right, let's take another phone call.
[53:55.140 --> 53:55.400]  Good evening.
[53:55.520 --> 53:56.560]  You're on the air.
[53:57.860 --> 53:58.140]  Hello.
[53:58.340 --> 53:58.840]  Speak up, please.
[53:58.920 --> 53:59.160]  Go ahead.
[53:59.340 --> 53:59.800]  Yeah, hi.
[53:59.880 --> 54:00.920]  I'm ringing from the UK.
[54:01.280 --> 54:01.600]  UK?
[54:01.860 --> 54:02.360]  Yeah, ma'am.
[54:02.540 --> 54:03.680]  Oh, I've heard of that place.
[54:03.820 --> 54:04.160]  Yeah, ma'am.
[54:04.280 --> 54:06.880]  So you're actually listening to us now over the net in England.
[54:07.080 --> 54:07.800]  Top stuff.
[54:08.120 --> 54:08.820]  Great, great.
[54:09.160 --> 54:18.320]  I'd just like to say, if anyone else is listening to the UK, I'd like to make a shout-out to Antisocial Magazine, the biggest UK on the ground magazine in the UK.
[54:18.640 --> 54:19.040]  All right.
[54:19.240 --> 54:20.200]  I hadn't heard of them.
[54:20.300 --> 54:21.180]  Are they available here?
[54:21.540 --> 54:27.080]  Yeah, it's at www.antisocial.cjb.net for any more info.
[54:27.440 --> 54:27.740]  Okay.
[54:27.940 --> 54:29.100]  You make it to the meetings over there?
[54:29.760 --> 54:30.380]  That's the thing.
[54:30.480 --> 54:38.460]  We're having our first meeting in Manchester at Victoria Station, at the bottom of the MEN Arena stairs.
[54:38.800 --> 54:39.160]  Okay.
[54:39.380 --> 54:40.480]  On the 31st of July.
[54:40.640 --> 54:43.160]  I just wanted to say that to everyone listening out there.
[54:43.340 --> 54:43.640]  All right.
[54:43.680 --> 54:44.080]  That's okay.
[54:44.380 --> 54:44.880]  Sounds good.
[54:45.040 --> 54:45.340]  Sounds good.
[54:45.460 --> 54:46.260]  Thanks very much for your time.
[54:46.400 --> 54:46.920]  Thanks for calling.
[54:47.060 --> 54:47.260]  Later.
[54:47.460 --> 54:47.760]  Bye-bye.
[54:48.180 --> 54:49.020]  I like the UK.
[54:49.460 --> 54:50.080]  I do, too.
[54:50.180 --> 54:50.860]  You were over there recently.
[54:51.060 --> 54:51.260]  Yeah.
[54:51.460 --> 54:52.980]  I enjoyed it very much.
[54:53.140 --> 54:54.240]  It's a fun place.
[54:54.360 --> 54:54.800]  I want to go back.
[54:54.800 --> 54:55.860]  Filled with fun people.
[54:56.940 --> 54:57.380]  All right.
[54:57.500 --> 55:00.780]  Let's take... I think we have time for about one more listener here.
[55:00.880 --> 55:01.160]  Good evening.
[55:01.260 --> 55:01.700]  You're on the air.
[55:02.300 --> 55:02.660]  Hi.
[55:03.100 --> 55:04.700]  I tuned in a little while ago.
[55:05.060 --> 55:08.520]  I think someone called up and you were talking about like touch-tone fees?
[55:08.820 --> 55:09.140]  Yes.
[55:09.140 --> 55:09.880]  Touch-tone fees.
[55:10.640 --> 55:13.460]  In Connecticut for Bell Atlantic, it's 207.
[55:13.960 --> 55:15.560]  They're still charging you in Connecticut, too.
[55:15.640 --> 55:16.600]  You know, this is an outrage.
[55:16.780 --> 55:17.060]  I know.
[55:17.060 --> 55:21.620]  You think the war is over and all of a sudden you find out it's been going on for the last 10 years and nobody told you.
[55:21.640 --> 55:23.100]  Where'd they come up with 207, anyway?
[55:23.200 --> 55:23.700]  I don't know.
[55:23.700 --> 55:26.220]  I just looked at my most recent bill and there it is.
[55:26.520 --> 55:28.700]  So if you think it's bad, New Jersey with a dollar.
[55:28.960 --> 55:29.420]  Okay, folks.
[55:29.560 --> 55:32.820]  We've got to rally the troops back again and fight this touch-tone fee.
[55:32.920 --> 55:35.480]  I mean, why is it that it's free for us here in New York?
[55:35.540 --> 55:36.900]  Just start tapping the switch hook.
[55:37.480 --> 55:38.940]  Listen, we shouldn't have to do that.
[55:39.000 --> 55:40.980]  This is the 1990s and almost the 2000s.
[55:41.040 --> 55:41.920]  We shouldn't have to do that.
[55:42.560 --> 55:43.320]  Thanks for the update.
[55:43.420 --> 55:45.220]  Let's see if we can get one more listener in here.
[55:45.260 --> 55:45.500]  Good evening.
[55:45.600 --> 55:45.900]  You're on the air.
[55:46.040 --> 55:46.260]  Hi.
[55:46.520 --> 55:50.460]  I could tell you about the touch-tones, but could you also let me bring in another item?
[55:50.540 --> 55:52.800]  If you do it in 20 seconds, go ahead.
[55:53.700 --> 55:54.680]  Okay, I'll call next week.
[55:55.200 --> 56:05.800]  A pirate radio station was, in a sense, torpedoed by a Benedict Arnold character who actually touts himself as Tom Payne.
[56:06.040 --> 56:06.940]  Okay, well...
[56:06.940 --> 56:12.360]  He was turned into the FCC and to Tom Powers, a senior advisor.
[56:12.980 --> 56:18.700]  Okay, we'd rather not get into personalities as far as, you know, who did what, but we'd be interested in the station.
[56:18.820 --> 56:20.320]  So please do call us back as far as that goes.
[56:20.460 --> 56:22.000]  I guess we can squeeze one more phone call in.
[56:22.100 --> 56:22.860]  I like the early American references, though.
[56:23.260 --> 56:23.440]  Oops.
[56:24.300 --> 56:25.000]  Jumped the gun on that one.
[56:25.120 --> 56:25.860]  Let's try this one real quick.
[56:25.960 --> 56:26.180]  Good evening.
[56:26.260 --> 56:26.640]  You're on the air.
[56:26.960 --> 56:27.160]  Yes.
[56:27.560 --> 56:28.580]  What I was saying...
[56:28.580 --> 56:29.220]  No, you were not.
[56:29.380 --> 56:29.800]  Good evening.
[56:29.960 --> 56:30.600]  You're on the air.
[56:31.860 --> 56:32.140]  Hello?
[56:32.320 --> 56:32.540]  Yes.
[56:32.620 --> 56:33.240]  You're the last call.
[56:33.320 --> 56:33.760]  Make it fast.
[56:33.760 --> 56:34.260]  Uh, yeah.
[56:34.560 --> 56:43.860]  Uh, in USC today, uh, there's an article that AOL is offering completely free service in the UK.
[56:44.440 --> 56:47.000]  You know, I saw that in passing.
[56:47.140 --> 56:47.760]  I did see that.
[56:48.080 --> 56:48.440]  What?
[56:48.600 --> 56:49.440]  I saw that article.
[56:49.600 --> 56:52.260]  So they're offering AOL service in the UK for free.
[56:52.460 --> 56:56.100]  Yeah, and other companies are also doing the same thing.
[56:56.220 --> 57:01.960]  That's like, you know, dropping smallpox for free on a country, but, uh, expecting you to be grateful for it.
[57:01.960 --> 57:04.800]  But, uh, well, on behalf of us, we're sorry.
[57:05.280 --> 57:07.380]  Um, I don't know how else we can help you.
[57:08.380 --> 57:08.740]  Okay.
[57:08.980 --> 57:09.300]  All right.
[57:09.800 --> 57:10.160]  Thanks.
[57:10.220 --> 57:10.760]  Thanks for calling.
[57:10.880 --> 57:12.460]  I assume that guy was calling from the UK, too.
[57:12.720 --> 57:13.460]  Yeah, possibly.
[57:13.700 --> 57:16.080]  But the thing with the UK is that, uh, they don't have free local.
[57:17.000 --> 57:20.480]  So, yeah, you could be on AOL for as long as you like.
[57:20.560 --> 57:21.120]  Oh, I see.
[57:21.140 --> 57:22.060]  Except for the fact that you're paying...
[57:22.060 --> 57:25.380]  And what do you want to bet they've got something, something with the phone company?
[57:25.620 --> 57:26.260]  What do you know?
[57:26.380 --> 57:27.440]  That's entirely possible.
[57:27.700 --> 57:28.480]  Connections are being made.
[57:28.660 --> 57:31.940]  Well, that music means that our time is up, but we'll be back again next time.
[57:31.940 --> 57:35.480]  Next week, with word on the Mitnick, uh, sentencing.
[57:36.780 --> 57:39.320]  And hopefully a whole lot of other news items as well.
[57:39.500 --> 57:40.340]  Thanks, everybody, for listening.
[57:40.500 --> 57:41.560]  Thanks for supporting the station.
[57:41.820 --> 57:42.360]  Thanks for everything.
[57:42.960 --> 57:44.180]  We'll see you next week.
[57:45.740 --> 57:47.440]  It's Emmanuel for Isaac and Porkchop.
[57:47.540 --> 57:47.740]  Good night.
[57:48.180 --> 57:49.000]  Good night.
[57:49.140 --> 57:49.660]  Good night.
[57:54.440 --> 57:55.060]  Good night.
[57:55.060 --> 57:55.080]  Good night.
[57:55.280 --> 57:55.620]  Good night.
[58:29.930 --> 58:30.770]  Good night.
[58:54.220 --> 58:57.680]  This is a theme music for Cat Radio Café.
[58:57.740 --> 58:58.040]  Oh, yeah.
[58:58.260 --> 58:59.280]  An arts magazine.
[58:59.680 --> 59:01.600]  Live on Wednesday nights at 10.
[59:01.860 --> 59:03.460]  I'm Janet Coleman, the host.
[59:03.560 --> 59:04.580]  And I'm David Dozer.
[59:04.660 --> 59:05.840]  The displaced playwright.
[59:06.000 --> 59:08.160]  This program used to be called by another name.
[59:08.160 --> 59:09.980]  Now introducing...
[59:09.980 --> 59:11.440]  Cat Radio Café.
[59:11.600 --> 59:13.120]  Cat Radio Café.
[59:13.400 --> 59:17.480]  Still featuring great interviews with scintillating authors and provocative artists.
[59:17.820 --> 59:18.480]  Or vice versa.
[59:18.740 --> 59:21.280]  The latest in theater books, art, and performance.
[59:21.280 --> 59:22.700]  What's new on the Rialto?
[59:23.000 --> 59:23.860]  And Ludlow Street.
[59:24.140 --> 59:27.640]  And one or two of the 137 Poison Arts Minutes.
[59:27.800 --> 59:28.240]  Of plays.
[59:28.480 --> 59:31.900]  Radio minutes that take up to 12 and a half hours to produce.
[59:32.040 --> 59:34.100]  A marketing idea still ahead of its time.
[59:34.240 --> 59:35.140]  Listen to this tune.
[59:35.400 --> 59:37.120]  Oh, I can see you cats now.
[59:38.160 --> 59:38.980]  Get down.
[59:39.160 --> 59:39.980]  Head for the radio.
[59:40.400 --> 59:40.940]  Yes?
[59:41.520 --> 59:43.180]  Cat Radio Café.
[59:43.360 --> 59:44.760]  Cat Radio Café.
[59:44.960 --> 59:46.000]  Wednesday nights at 10.
[59:46.000 --> 59:47.520]  Here on WBAI.
[59:47.640 --> 59:48.880]  Hey, the cats drink coffee?
[59:49.040 --> 59:50.260]  If it's brewed with fish.
[59:57.240 --> 01:00:02.220]  And this is WBAI 99.5 FM in New York.
[01:00:02.440 --> 01:00:03.860]  Your community-sponsored radio.
[01:00:04.240 --> 01:00:06.100]  Stay tuned for Tahrir.