[00:03.000 --> 00:04.080]  The Franklin cover-up.
[00:04.160 --> 00:05.480]  The Franklin cover-up.
[00:05.640 --> 00:06.700]  You've got to tune in next week.
[00:06.720 --> 00:14.400]  If any of you want information as to where you can get the Franklin cover-up, call that phone number that I gave you, and I will aim you in the correct direction.
[00:15.100 --> 00:22.820]  And Ted and John, I'm sorry for the rushed ending here, but you can tell I'm a cop with a radio show, not a talking head.
[00:23.820 --> 00:25.960]  So you guys are going to be on again next week.
[00:26.140 --> 00:26.580]  Okay, thanks.
[00:37.400 --> 00:38.080]  Marhaba.
[00:38.560 --> 00:41.560]  I'm Barbara Nimri-Aziz, host of Tahrir.
[00:42.120 --> 00:46.600]  Liberation is a weekly magazine of our Arab Muslim peoples here and abroad.
[00:47.280 --> 00:51.960]  Ever wonder about the gains of Muslims struggling for equal rights in the USA?
[00:52.560 --> 00:56.480]  Need to know what films and books are being written by Arab Americans?
[00:56.940 --> 01:01.540]  Waiting to hear how Palestinians are really living, how Iraqis are really dying?
[01:01.540 --> 01:07.200]  And what, besides oil, drives the women and men of the Middle East?
[01:07.780 --> 01:13.440]  To find out, join us on WBAI every Tuesday evenings from 9 to 10 p.m.
[01:13.900 --> 01:14.940]  for Tahrir.
[01:15.160 --> 01:20.780]  That's on 99.5 FM, listener-sponsored radio in New York.
[01:24.160 --> 01:27.560]  And that's coming up in just one hour here on WBAI New York.
[01:27.840 --> 01:31.300]  But right now, it's time for Off the Hook.
[02:19.910 --> 02:21.030]  And a good evening to everybody.
[02:21.030 --> 02:22.070]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:22.190 --> 02:26.430]  We're here with you every Tuesday night from 8 to 9 p.m.
[02:26.430 --> 02:33.810]  with updates on the world of technology and social injustice and all kinds of other fun things of the 90s like that.
[02:35.030 --> 02:42.490]  And we have a pretty momentous show tonight because this is the program where we mark the end.
[02:43.430 --> 02:49.430]  The end of something that has been going on for quite a long time, and that, of course, is the Kevin Mitnick case.
[02:49.730 --> 03:01.530]  Which, although Kevin is still in prison, the case itself actually drew to a close yesterday with, finally, finally, at long last, the sentencing of Kevin Mitnick.
[03:02.550 --> 03:03.110]  Unbelievable.
[03:03.110 --> 03:04.770]  Isaac, have you been following this story?
[03:04.950 --> 03:05.490]  Oh, yes.
[03:06.530 --> 03:08.210]  It just never seems to end.
[03:09.390 --> 03:16.050]  Unfortunately, they did not, or the judge did not recommend Kevin be sent to a halfway house, which is what we were hoping.
[03:16.330 --> 03:19.270]  In fact, she recommended against sending him to a halfway house.
[03:19.370 --> 03:26.350]  She said, basically, that she wanted him to serve the rest of his time in prison.
[03:26.350 --> 03:34.830]  Not necessarily the prison he's in now, the MDC, possibly more of a camp-type setting, but she was of the opinion that a halfway house would not work.
[03:34.930 --> 03:40.750]  That probably is based on the fact that she has sentenced him before, although that was way back in 1989.
[03:42.990 --> 03:49.170]  I don't know, but the good news, there is some good news in this, and that is that the restitution is not crippling.
[03:49.170 --> 04:03.430]  I mean, remember all the talk over the years, how much damage this guy caused, how much, how much, tens of millions, and then when we got a hold of the letters, which we put up on the site, we added it up, and it was something like $500 million, I said,
[04:03.470 --> 04:08.910]  this guy, this guy caused damage by copying software and looking at things he wasn't supposed to look at.
[04:09.010 --> 04:10.830]  And that was, that was the driving force.
[04:10.950 --> 04:15.850]  That was why this guy was put in prison this long, because he caused all this damage.
[04:15.850 --> 04:18.710]  He made all this trouble for people.
[04:19.530 --> 04:26.630]  And in the end, do you know what the final amount was that they said he caused this amount of damage?
[04:26.750 --> 04:27.510]  It's got to be millions.
[04:27.890 --> 04:28.910]  You'd think it would be, wouldn't you?
[04:29.030 --> 04:29.170]  Yeah.
[04:30.350 --> 04:31.190]  $4,125.
[04:33.030 --> 04:33.870]  $4,125.
[04:33.870 --> 04:34.610]  $4,125.
[04:34.730 --> 04:36.730]  That's the total amount of restitution that Kevin...
[04:36.730 --> 04:37.050]  No sense?
[04:37.190 --> 04:37.790]  They didn't think...
[04:37.790 --> 04:38.270]  I don't know.
[04:38.330 --> 04:40.050]  He has to pay a $350 fine as well.
[04:40.190 --> 04:40.990]  And that's it.
[04:40.990 --> 04:46.150]  I mean, this is what we go nearly five years for, for this kind of nonsense.
[04:46.350 --> 04:46.730]  $4,000.
[04:46.730 --> 04:54.050]  I mean, I don't want to sound like I'm criticizing the decision to fine him that amount, as opposed to millions of dollars.
[04:54.130 --> 05:01.070]  But let's face it, this is pretty much what we were saying all along, that if there was any damage, it was something rather low.
[05:01.670 --> 05:08.070]  And I think all the testimony and all the evidence that has been brought forward and not kept secret pretty much bears this out.
[05:08.070 --> 05:10.830]  That he did not cause significant damage.
[05:11.070 --> 05:13.530]  The damage he did cause was completely unintentional.
[05:13.650 --> 05:14.550]  Did not steal anything.
[05:14.610 --> 05:15.530]  Did not delete anything.
[05:16.030 --> 05:19.950]  Did not use trade secrets against a corporation in any way.
[05:20.390 --> 05:21.790]  Simply was too curious.
[05:21.910 --> 05:23.310]  Simply was wandering around the net.
[05:23.470 --> 05:28.610]  And also, at the same time, trying not to be arrested by these people that seemed to have it in for him.
[05:30.310 --> 05:34.190]  And sometimes you have to make some free phone calls when you're in that kind of situation.
[05:34.190 --> 05:39.550]  But, I mean, we're not talking about anything, anything that warrants five years in prison.
[05:40.190 --> 05:42.470]  Or the threat of even more time in prison.
[05:42.550 --> 05:45.410]  I remember one time the deal that they offered him was ten years.
[05:45.630 --> 05:46.530]  A total of ten years.
[05:46.610 --> 05:48.710]  So I guess he made out okay by not accepting that deal.
[05:49.450 --> 05:50.410]  But still, think of it.
[05:50.510 --> 05:51.450]  Five years of your life.
[05:51.550 --> 05:52.030]  Just lost.
[05:52.150 --> 05:56.830]  Where were you back in early 1995, which is when this all began?
[05:56.830 --> 06:06.090]  And keep in mind, there were two years before that, where Kevin was trying not to get arrested by living under assumed names and trying not to get too much attention.
[06:07.250 --> 06:08.650]  A lot's happened since then.
[06:09.050 --> 06:10.310]  An awful lot has happened.
[06:11.170 --> 06:12.370]  Hasn't seen his family.
[06:12.570 --> 06:13.450]  Hasn't been outside.
[06:13.650 --> 06:14.790]  Hasn't seen the sky.
[06:15.130 --> 06:16.450]  You know, it's just...
[06:16.450 --> 06:20.070]  It really boggles the mind that people are so blind to this.
[06:20.970 --> 06:27.670]  And to further demonstrate this, I've got a piece here that I really want to share with people, just so that... because there's a lot of stupidity out there.
[06:27.910 --> 06:31.610]  I don't mean to sound condescending or anything like that, but there's a lot of morons out there, okay?
[06:31.910 --> 06:36.730]  People who say things like, oh, he broke the law, he deserves to go to prison, let him rot in jail.
[06:36.910 --> 06:39.110]  You know, that seems to be the sentiment these days.
[06:39.570 --> 06:42.710]  That, you know, you jaywalk and all of a sudden you're a criminal.
[06:42.890 --> 06:44.270]  It doesn't matter what the offense is.
[06:44.390 --> 06:47.770]  If you broke the law, then you must pay the penalty.
[06:47.890 --> 06:48.770]  You must go to prison.
[06:48.890 --> 06:50.010]  You must...
[06:50.010 --> 06:50.990]  Do not pass go.
[06:50.990 --> 06:51.870]  Do not pass go.
[06:52.010 --> 06:53.190]  Do not collect anything.
[06:53.870 --> 06:55.210]  Just serve your time.
[06:56.750 --> 07:02.490]  A very momentous thing happened last week, and I want to use that to lead up to this piece I have here.
[07:02.970 --> 07:07.630]  Even more momentous than the sentencing, and that was on Friday, which happened to be Kevin's 36th birthday.
[07:08.070 --> 07:08.950]  Oh, happy birthday, Kevin.
[07:09.130 --> 07:11.890]  He got a really good present from the state of California.
[07:11.890 --> 07:13.950]  They dropped the case against him.
[07:13.950 --> 07:36.230]  And that was the biggest worry, because had Kevin been released from federal custody, either now or next year when his term is his sentence is scheduled to run out, he would have been remanded to the custody of the state because of this other charge, where they charged him with accessing the computers of the Department of Motor Vehicles.
[07:36.370 --> 07:41.630]  That was when he called up to find out, I think, information on Justin Peterson and Agent Steele.
[07:42.490 --> 07:53.390]  And by doing that, they claim that he basically accessed their computers for fraudulent purposes.
[07:53.710 --> 08:00.810]  Now, again, what we were saying all along, he's basically accused of lying on the telephone.
[08:01.410 --> 08:02.530]  Lying on the telephone.
[08:02.750 --> 08:04.170]  And that turns into computer fraud.
[08:04.230 --> 08:08.710]  Well, basically, they reached the same conclusion on Friday, and they said, we don't have a case here.
[08:09.010 --> 08:11.110]  There's no case, because he didn't access the computer.
[08:11.110 --> 08:14.230]  He simply made a phone call and lied.
[08:14.610 --> 08:16.110]  Well, he accessed a person, then.
[08:16.350 --> 08:17.130]  No, children.
[08:17.790 --> 08:18.550]  Lying is wrong.
[08:19.250 --> 08:20.630]  I want to make that clear.
[08:20.830 --> 08:22.610]  I do not endorse lying.
[08:22.930 --> 08:23.290]  All right?
[08:23.450 --> 08:28.390]  I'm not... I'm not... the parents, I'm not advocating that children go out and lie on the phone or otherwise.
[08:28.670 --> 08:28.870]  Okay?
[08:29.370 --> 08:30.350]  Do not lie.
[08:30.570 --> 08:33.350]  To the Grand Juries or to the Senate or to the ultimate money.
[08:33.750 --> 08:34.730]  You can lie to them.
[08:34.850 --> 08:35.670]  You can lie... Okay.
[08:35.810 --> 08:36.930]  My rules on lying.
[08:36.930 --> 08:39.290]  You can lie to people you have absolutely no respect for, right?
[08:39.510 --> 08:42.590]  So... As far as I'm concerned, lying to the Senate is just fine.
[08:42.670 --> 08:43.370]  But never mind that.
[08:44.090 --> 08:45.950]  I'm talking about lying to get information.
[08:45.970 --> 08:47.270]  That's what social engineering is.
[08:47.270 --> 08:49.110]  You get on the phone, you say you're somebody, you're not.
[08:49.190 --> 08:49.990]  That's how it works.
[08:50.010 --> 08:51.090]  It's not a big deal.
[08:51.170 --> 08:54.670]  He was trying to find out information about a federal informant who was doing a lot of harm.
[08:55.930 --> 08:59.130]  And I guess it didn't work out all that well.
[09:00.090 --> 09:01.350]  But he didn't steal a Porsche.
[09:01.370 --> 09:02.830]  He didn't steal money.
[09:02.970 --> 09:07.090]  He didn't do anything that you would consider to be a standard crime.
[09:08.970 --> 09:14.070]  But by having the case dropped on Friday, that meant that once Kevin is released, he's released.
[09:14.330 --> 09:14.930]  He's free.
[09:15.050 --> 09:16.350]  He does not have to go to another jail.
[09:16.390 --> 09:17.150]  Remember the Bernie S.
[09:17.210 --> 09:30.870]  case a couple of years ago where he got out of the first prison, but then because he went to that prison, he wound up violating probation on some very minor charge a few years earlier and wound up, the Secret Service wound up putting him in a really, really bad prison.
[09:32.050 --> 09:35.950]  And that's the kind of thing that could have happened had this case not been dropped.
[09:36.070 --> 09:40.070]  So we're very thankful that that happened, that that nightmare is over.
[09:40.210 --> 09:43.350]  Now, of course, next year, a new nightmare begins when Kevin is released.
[09:43.430 --> 09:47.250]  And that is the thing called supervised release, where he's not allowed to go near a computer.
[09:47.410 --> 09:48.770]  He's not allowed to talk about computers.
[09:48.770 --> 09:51.110]  He's not allowed to advise anybody on technology.
[09:51.910 --> 09:54.970]  And he has to somehow figure out a way to survive.
[09:55.330 --> 10:01.690]  But I, you know, I see, I see idiots out there, the same morons I was talking about before, that say things like, well, you know, he broke the law, it deserves to be in prison.
[10:01.750 --> 10:05.950]  But once he's out, you know, he's got to follow the rules, he can get a job at McDonald's or something like that.
[10:06.030 --> 10:07.050]  Well, guess what, morons?
[10:07.050 --> 10:08.370]  He can't get a job at McDonald's.
[10:08.430 --> 10:09.290]  They have computers there.
[10:09.530 --> 10:11.610]  And he's not allowed to be anywhere near a computer.
[10:11.870 --> 10:13.750]  And that's, that's a, that's a big deal.
[10:14.090 --> 10:21.430]  And that's something that's, that's completely unfair, something that also seems to be increasingly the standard when people are being sentenced.
[10:21.710 --> 10:28.190]  So it's an issue we have to keep a very strong eye on and something we have to fight in the future as well.
[10:28.310 --> 10:39.190]  So while the Kevin case may be over legally, he's still in prison, and there's still many more cases coming down the road, and there's still a lot of bad things that came out of this case that will come back to haunt us.
[10:39.630 --> 10:44.950]  So staying awake is a very high priority, I would say.
[10:44.950 --> 10:47.530]  How long is his supervised release going to happen?
[10:47.530 --> 10:48.430]  I think it's three years.
[10:48.630 --> 10:49.930]  Three years after he gets out.
[10:50.110 --> 10:52.310]  After he gets out, which I believe is January of next year.
[10:52.410 --> 10:53.090]  We're trying to find out.
[10:53.230 --> 10:54.390]  We're trying to pin down an exact date.
[10:54.850 --> 11:08.950]  Now, the interesting thing was that Judge Fouser yesterday said that actually whether or not he gets access to a computer or what kind of access he gets is up to his supervising officer, the person who's in charge of him.
[11:09.970 --> 11:15.890]  So she would not change any of the conditions, but she said that that person had the power to, which is interesting.
[11:16.090 --> 11:17.490]  I'm not sure if that will actually happen.
[11:17.490 --> 11:22.330]  He could get, you know, a real hard-ass guy that doesn't allow him to, you know, go near a parking meter.
[11:23.110 --> 11:25.290]  So we'll just have to see what kind of nightmares happen.
[11:25.390 --> 11:29.050]  But, you know, I would have to think that... I haven't talked to Kevin since this.
[11:29.170 --> 11:30.410]  I'll probably talk to him in the next couple of days.
[11:30.410 --> 11:41.490]  But I would have to think he feels kind of the way Bernie did when he had mixed feelings after making a deal with the government where, you know, you made a deal with the devil, but at least now you know when it's going to be over.
[11:45.130 --> 11:46.510]  So, the end is in sight.
[11:46.550 --> 11:48.330]  It's still a ways away, but it's in sight.
[11:48.990 --> 11:54.430]  All right, now this is dedicated to those people out there that seem to think that the only way to deal with crime is to send people into prison.
[11:54.970 --> 12:01.970]  Of course, prison being the... one of the biggest businesses in this country right now, building prisons upstate.
[12:02.470 --> 12:04.410]  Towns are fighting for the rights to prison.
[12:04.470 --> 12:07.550]  It's like, you know, booking concerts, getting prisons built.
[12:08.590 --> 12:15.210]  You know, you get jobs, you get guaranteed customers, people who will be consuming things, and also you get free labor.
[12:15.690 --> 12:24.690]  That's right, you get slave labor, in fact, people who work for pennies an hour, pennies a day, building furniture, and cutting grass, maintaining roads, things like that.
[12:24.790 --> 12:25.870]  That's where we're going.
[12:26.590 --> 12:34.230]  Now, had Kevin been sent to... been brought up on the state charges, he would have wound up in either L.A.
[12:34.290 --> 12:36.350]  County Jail or another state prison.
[12:36.650 --> 12:42.910]  Now, we have a piece here that was posted on the Mitnick List from somebody who knows the system very well.
[12:44.810 --> 12:49.070]  And he raised a very good point, and something I don't think we should lose sight of.
[12:49.610 --> 12:54.290]  The prison that Kevin is in right now, and if you have a current copy of 2600, you can look right at it.
[12:54.530 --> 12:56.670]  It's illegal to take pictures, but we did it anyway.
[12:57.710 --> 13:02.790]  And on the front there, you'll see that there are... I didn't know what these were at first.
[13:02.910 --> 13:06.410]  It looked like they were kind of like trees growing or something in the front.
[13:07.550 --> 13:10.590]  They're actually... those are the outdoor areas where people exercise.
[13:11.090 --> 13:14.550]  You know, it's elevated, it's concrete, but it's technically outdoors.
[13:14.550 --> 13:17.010]  It's got wire mesh all over it and a covering.
[13:17.530 --> 13:19.890]  So it's as close to outdoors as they can get.
[13:20.290 --> 13:22.930]  Take a look at the cover and just look at that.
[13:23.030 --> 13:23.690]  Look at that section.
[13:23.850 --> 13:25.150]  And that is outdoors to those people.
[13:25.330 --> 13:26.930]  And that's... that's... that's something.
[13:27.010 --> 13:28.170]  Now, this is a good prison.
[13:28.350 --> 13:30.270]  This is a good prison, and I'll tell you why.
[13:30.970 --> 13:32.970]  This is in the words of this person.
[13:33.810 --> 13:35.310]  Who probably wants to remain anonymous.
[13:36.270 --> 13:36.810]  I don't know.
[13:36.930 --> 13:37.570]  I'm not sure about that.
[13:37.570 --> 13:41.810]  But the truth is, it doesn't get much better than the MDC, Metropolitan Detention Center.
[13:42.390 --> 13:44.730]  Except perhaps Lompoc, outside the wall.
[13:46.270 --> 13:49.550]  Unless things have radically changed, Kevin could order from the kosher menu.
[13:50.010 --> 13:52.490]  Something many did simply because the food was better.
[13:52.950 --> 14:01.210]  The floors, except for the hole on eight and the girls on nine, look vaguely like a cross between a Holiday Inn and a Holiday Health Spa.
[14:02.150 --> 14:09.090]  True, only two televisions, but if you're a trustee, which Kevin must be by now, Hacks will let you out late at night.
[14:09.230 --> 14:10.310]  Hacks being prison guards, of course.
[14:11.170 --> 14:14.270]  Will let you out late at night to watch whatever you want.
[14:14.510 --> 14:16.030]  Usually softcore porn.
[14:17.030 --> 14:18.390]  Maybe Cinemax or something.
[14:18.470 --> 14:18.810]  Who knows.
[14:19.230 --> 14:25.070]  Furthermore, there is little or no opportunity for physical violence, though they've had a couple of knifings over the years.
[14:26.850 --> 14:31.710]  Additionally, the outside balcony does sport weights and a tiny basketball court.
[14:32.730 --> 14:37.310]  These balconies are what you see from the outside, covered by gray steel wire mesh.
[14:38.110 --> 14:47.530]  Because of a crime spree I conducted as a youth, automatic teller scheme on a wide scale, I spent time not only in MDC, but also Terminal Island, L.A.
[14:47.610 --> 14:57.190]  County Jail, Chino State Prison, California Men's Colony in Obispo, Santa Clara County Jail, and San Quentin in Marin.
[14:58.450 --> 15:09.230]  And I can tell you that of these places, and in fact of all prisons in California, MDC is the most comfortable, other than, as I said, Lompoc outside the wall.
[15:11.150 --> 15:26.510]  To juxtaposition Kevin's current situation with the reality of actual prison, as opposed to a detention center such as MDC, which holds folks only during trial, or if they're doing less than eight months, let me offer you a view of what he might have faced,
[15:26.750 --> 15:32.950]  and what he would have faced if the state of California had pursued its claims.
[15:34.190 --> 15:35.490]  Let's start with L.A.
[15:35.570 --> 15:40.770]  County Jail, and progress forward, being that he would start there while awaiting trial.
[15:41.930 --> 15:43.010]  Upon entering L.A.
[15:43.110 --> 15:48.950]  County, you are packed in with some of the most low-life knuckleheads you'll ever meet.
[15:50.010 --> 15:51.390]  Some are mentally ill.
[15:51.850 --> 15:58.970]  Others are quite obviously physically diseased, with lesions on the surface of their skin.
[15:59.150 --> 16:02.150]  Some have TB, and have yet to be flagged as such.
[16:03.310 --> 16:13.670]  Nearly all are nice and ripe after spending the mandatory 72 hours in a regional jail without a shower, while awaiting either arraignment or a D.A.
[16:13.810 --> 16:15.110]  reject, where a D.A.
[16:15.170 --> 16:16.670]  decides that the evidence is insufficient.
[16:19.430 --> 16:20.050]  L.A.
[16:20.090 --> 16:22.270]  process is about 1,000 at a time.
[16:22.730 --> 16:29.410]  You are packed shoulder to shoulder with these 1,000 men as you collectively wind through a labyrinth of hallways.
[16:30.410 --> 16:40.170]  At the third, you must strip naked, lift each foot, shake out your hair, turn and face the wall, and spread your cheeks for examination.
[16:41.290 --> 16:46.370]  You remain naked from here on, moving along into smaller stone rooms.
[16:47.650 --> 16:49.790]  There you wait for as much as two hours.
[16:50.570 --> 16:53.690]  During this time, the heat is unbearable, as is the stench.
[16:53.970 --> 16:58.750]  About six men at a time pass through the next doorway, where pictures and filing occurs.
[17:00.010 --> 17:05.490]  Meanwhile, heroin addicts shake, convulse, and invariably vomit, often on others, which generally starts a fight.
[17:05.750 --> 17:10.090]  The toilets, usually three, are always filled to the brim and overflowing.
[17:11.710 --> 17:22.370]  After a time, folks simply stand the ways off from their target and haphazardly piss or something else, trying not to get their feet wet from the ever-increasing, constantly expanding puddles of filth.
[17:23.310 --> 17:26.530]  In this room, if a fight erupts, things really get nasty.
[17:27.210 --> 17:29.170]  Deputies typically come ten deep.
[17:29.750 --> 17:34.290]  And naturally, for necessity's sake, these boys are on super-fat status.
[17:36.390 --> 17:44.350]  We're talking corn-fed deputies with frames that sport guns as big around as a large pie.
[17:44.530 --> 17:53.450]  And because they often cannot reach the troublemakers because these bozos are seated way at the back, the deputies simply take the first few men available, beat the living crap out of them.
[17:54.750 --> 18:05.530]  This has a special effect because the other inmates send a wire to the back so that the men surrounding the troublemakers collectively kick their asses in protest, and to prevent further disturbances that might result in deputies returning.
[18:06.690 --> 18:09.730]  Finally, you're classified and receive your number.
[18:10.870 --> 18:12.470]  Don't ever forget that number, either.
[18:13.670 --> 18:17.050]  During a shakedown once, we were lined up in a hallway against the yellow line, naked.
[18:17.610 --> 18:19.390]  Deputies walked by and called out our numbers.
[18:19.910 --> 18:22.570]  In such a situation, you're required to respond with the same.
[18:22.870 --> 18:26.950]  For example, the deputy says, E-5-3-0-5-0.
[18:28.130 --> 18:28.650]  Isaac.
[18:29.010 --> 18:29.530]  Yes?
[18:29.990 --> 18:30.950]  What did I just say?
[18:31.610 --> 18:33.610]  Uh, E-5-3-5-0.
[18:34.210 --> 18:34.610]  No.
[18:34.810 --> 18:36.050]  E-0-5-3-5-0.
[18:36.210 --> 18:37.430]  You don't get a second chance.
[18:37.590 --> 18:37.810]  Okay.
[18:38.510 --> 18:41.170]  Now, let me tell you what happens at that point.
[18:41.650 --> 18:44.510]  This one Mexican kid didn't know or couldn't remember his number.
[18:44.910 --> 18:48.590]  We had to stand there in that hall for about five minutes watching them kick his ass.
[18:49.570 --> 18:54.870]  After he was carted to the infirmary, the deputies asked, as any other MF-er and hear and not know his number.
[18:56.030 --> 18:58.750]  Eventually, you reach the quasi-medical exam.
[18:58.930 --> 19:01.310]  Here, a special spray is used to delouse you.
[19:01.830 --> 19:06.210]  If you're not circumcised, it will burn you something awful and the pain lingers for about 24 hours.
[19:06.970 --> 19:09.630]  This is different than prison where they often use a special powder.
[19:10.570 --> 19:16.810]  From here, you're packed onto the largest elevator you've ever seen and taken to a place called 9500 Block.
[19:17.690 --> 19:21.170]  9500 is a dorm designed to hold approximately 120 people.
[19:22.090 --> 19:24.870]  It routinely has over 350.
[19:25.710 --> 19:27.390]  Nearly three times its capacity.
[19:27.710 --> 19:30.390]  It has precisely the same toilet problems discussed earlier.
[19:30.810 --> 19:32.510]  Here, though, we have a different situation.
[19:32.510 --> 19:34.130]  The cops are not close at hand.
[19:34.370 --> 19:38.110]  It is here, if anywhere, that you will die or be seriously injured.
[19:39.090 --> 19:45.070]  The cops are in another room, elevated, behind reinforced glass that has been heavily scratched and graffitied.
[19:45.930 --> 19:50.310]  They can barely see inside, mostly dark shapes, just as you cannot see them.
[19:51.130 --> 19:55.410]  It is here that weaker inmates are routinely beaten, raped, or occasionally killed.
[19:56.590 --> 20:00.410]  The design of 9500 is spartan, a huge room with bunk beds.
[20:01.130 --> 20:03.230]  Used to be three high, but probably not anymore.
[20:04.150 --> 20:15.130]  Smart independents, those not associated with the Crips, Bloods, Nostra, Familia, BFG, Aryan Brotherhood, skins, etc., rest underneath their bunk beds where they're difficult to reach.
[20:15.970 --> 20:21.710]  They line either side of their body and typically their vital points with blankets, toilet paper, newspaper, and so forth.
[20:22.290 --> 20:25.010]  This offers them several seconds in the event of an assault.
[20:25.670 --> 20:27.770]  They also tie their shoes around their neck.
[20:28.790 --> 20:30.750]  When the lights go out, the fun begins.
[20:32.250 --> 20:35.350]  The da-da-da-da bandits come out.
[20:36.270 --> 20:41.710]  These are gentlemen who cover their faces with underwear and proceed to jack whomever they can.
[20:43.250 --> 20:48.570]  Da-da-da-da is a term that describes butt-huggers, Fruit of the Loom style briefs.
[20:49.610 --> 20:51.610]  Some sort of joke about that.
[20:51.730 --> 20:56.590]  Picture someone wearing nothing else but these and a cape with arms flexed like a superhero screaming da-da-da-da.
[20:57.330 --> 21:01.190]  Anyway, these make excellent hoods and prevent the victim from identifying the attackers.
[21:01.830 --> 21:07.050]  In 9500, I can honestly say that I saw the very worst of humanity, unequaled at any prison in the state.
[21:07.670 --> 21:09.690]  Kevin should hope and pray he never goes there.
[21:10.990 --> 21:14.010]  From 9500, you're transferred to an area called the Modules.
[21:14.250 --> 21:18.630]  These house standard prison-like cells, made really for four men but generally holding six.
[21:19.090 --> 21:27.230]  There is so little room that in order for you to do anything, bathroom, go to the front of the barred cell, etc., you must stand up and squeeze past one another.
[21:28.410 --> 21:30.490]  These places are old, very old.
[21:30.750 --> 21:37.330]  In some, stagnant water has soaked the cement between the cells, and from this flying insects are born.
[21:38.330 --> 21:45.970]  Meanwhile, the noise is absolutely deafening, truly deafening, as in when you go to a visit, your ears are still ringing a half hour later.
[21:47.310 --> 21:49.630]  In fact, you might want to listen to some of the earlier shows.
[21:49.710 --> 21:50.170]  When Bernie S.
[21:50.270 --> 21:58.230]  called us from prison, you hear people screaming at the top of their lungs, and whenever we went to visit him, we noticed that too, how it was simply impossible to hear.
[21:59.890 --> 22:16.690]  People scream all night long, some for fun, some because they were unlucky enough to be housed with someone of greatly disparate size and temperament, and at about 3.30 a.m., or some other inopportune time, deputies, when they're sure you're asleep, blast intrusive music over the PA,
[22:17.550 --> 22:18.930]  along with a morning greeting.
[22:19.830 --> 22:22.810]  Wake up, MFs, did you think you were really going to sleep?
[22:24.210 --> 22:26.710]  Feeding takes exactly 1 minute and 30 seconds.
[22:26.930 --> 22:29.070]  You're escorted down a hall into a feeding area.
[22:29.650 --> 22:35.990]  The feeding area consists of a conveyor belt where you pick up the food, a series of metal picnic like tables, and the opposite door.
[22:36.210 --> 22:42.350]  You have 1 minute and 30 seconds to eat, and woe to you if your table isn't ready to get up when the time expires.
[22:43.130 --> 22:49.430]  And if you get caught taking anything out, an apple, cookie, etc., you're in the thick of it.
[22:50.210 --> 22:53.430]  Try eating an entire meal in 1.5 minutes.
[22:53.750 --> 22:57.610]  In fact, the time is probably less because you have to walk the tray to the bench.
[22:58.470 --> 23:00.390]  Maybe it's 1 minute, 10 seconds.
[23:01.630 --> 23:02.950]  And that's just the beginning.
[23:03.310 --> 23:09.530]  I received a total of 6 and a half years and ultimately served three with some run bow-legged and some together.
[23:09.950 --> 23:15.270]  In that time, I saw 6 men killed less than 5 feet from me, and it wasn't always inmates doing the killing.
[23:16.430 --> 23:33.830]  I experienced two race riots, a raid, cops coming 30 deep with shields, batons, grenades, and an interrogation where those who put the questions to me beat me silly, an internal unit that investigates crooked cops and inmates and collusion between them.
[23:33.870 --> 23:40.110]  They were trying to bust the cops I worked under who were busy making thousands each month smuggling in dope and smuggling coffee out.
[23:42.430 --> 23:45.510]  In contrast, where Kevin is right now, he's living the life of Riley.
[23:45.730 --> 23:49.590]  Trust me, MDC is the safest, cleanest, quietest detention center in California.
[23:50.590 --> 23:53.530]  It is called by habitual criminals the Cadillac Hotel.
[23:54.570 --> 24:02.870]  Of course, you can't have your own TV like some pens allow, but believe me, MDC sports the best accommodations and treatment the federal government can offer.
[24:04.510 --> 24:09.730]  Anyway, I sympathize with Kevin, but what he's endured so far is nothing compared to what's coming if California pursues their claims.
[24:09.830 --> 24:11.530]  This was written before California dropped their claims.
[24:12.490 --> 24:12.770]  L.A.
[24:12.810 --> 24:18.870]  County jail is gnarly, worse than any prison, and I've heard the only American penal facility ever to make Amnesty International's list.
[24:19.550 --> 24:22.970]  It's the only place I was ever compelled to wrap newspaper around my chest.
[24:24.230 --> 24:30.370]  Newspaper, if you use enough of it, serves as a superb protection vest that will repel even a spirited stab with a screwdriver.
[24:32.410 --> 24:34.210]  hell, even the fun and games in L.A.
[24:34.270 --> 24:34.950]  County are dangerous.
[24:35.130 --> 24:42.570]  One really popular one is to approach a guy snoozing in a bunk, wrap his body in toilet paper, and light the paper on fire.
[24:43.930 --> 24:44.850]  Happened to me once.
[24:45.170 --> 24:46.070]  Happens to a lot of guys.
[24:46.370 --> 24:47.830]  You just gotta get up real quick.
[24:48.370 --> 24:50.910]  If you don't, forget it.
[25:00.280 --> 25:08.400]  You know, what you have to do is you have to listen to a story like that and tell yourself that's America in the 1990s, maybe.
[25:09.320 --> 25:10.500]  Practically the 2000s.
[25:12.620 --> 25:15.500]  And when you say someone deserves to ride in prison, that is what you're saying.
[25:17.520 --> 25:20.820]  That is the kind of place you're wishing them to be.
[25:22.700 --> 25:28.080]  And I don't even wish the people that say these things ever go to a place like that.
[25:29.760 --> 25:34.160]  I can't even imagine why a place like that needs to exist in the first place.
[25:35.700 --> 25:36.520]  For anyone.
[25:37.420 --> 25:39.140]  I mean, we're not talking punishment here.
[25:39.240 --> 25:39.920]  We're not talking rehabilitation.
[25:39.920 --> 25:42.180]  We're talking just plain torture.
[25:46.650 --> 25:48.210]  It's pretty frightening.
[25:48.210 --> 25:53.910]  The fact that we're even thinking of sending someone like Kevin there is something I'll probably never understand.
[25:55.890 --> 25:58.070]  We'll be taking phone calls in just a couple of moments.
[25:58.170 --> 26:00.510]  212-209-2900.
[26:21.610 --> 26:23.470]  The new bill of the week.
[26:23.830 --> 26:24.730]  Hear about this one, Isaac?
[26:24.850 --> 26:25.810]  The cyber-squatting bill?
[26:27.770 --> 26:31.210]  Good old Billy Clinton's executive order.
[26:31.450 --> 26:32.790]  No, this isn't an executive order.
[26:33.230 --> 26:33.930]  No, this came from Congress.
[26:34.330 --> 26:34.710]  Okay.
[26:34.890 --> 26:35.510]  This came from Congress.
[26:35.590 --> 26:36.350]  You'll have to enlighten me.
[26:36.610 --> 26:42.430]  This was sponsored by Republican Orrin Hatch of Utah.
[26:45.350 --> 26:58.150]  $100,000 fine if you register a name that they determine, I don't know who's going to determine this, that they determine is being used that actually belongs to another company.
[26:58.290 --> 27:01.810]  For instance, if, say, you were to register...
[27:01.810 --> 27:02.290]  Oreo.
[27:02.810 --> 27:03.250]  What's that?
[27:03.350 --> 27:03.690]  Oreo.
[27:04.310 --> 27:04.950]  Oreo, yeah.
[27:05.090 --> 27:06.890]  Like the guy we had on the show a couple of years ago.
[27:06.990 --> 27:08.030]  Actually, that was Oreos.
[27:08.410 --> 27:08.750]  Oreos.
[27:09.170 --> 27:11.870]  I'm not sure they can tie that up in court.
[27:11.930 --> 27:12.410]  He still has.
[27:12.410 --> 27:15.730]  How about takedownthemovie.com?
[27:15.830 --> 27:15.930]  Huh?
[27:16.130 --> 27:16.770]  What about that?
[27:17.310 --> 27:18.450]  That would qualify.
[27:18.570 --> 27:24.770]  That would qualify as something that could be said to belong to somebody else.
[27:24.990 --> 27:28.430]  And we registered that site and we're cyber-squatting.
[27:28.550 --> 27:29.050]  We're sitting on it.
[27:29.130 --> 27:30.330]  We're putting our own thing on there.
[27:30.610 --> 27:31.930]  $100,000 fine.
[27:34.030 --> 27:35.390]  I don't know if Clinton signed it yet.
[27:35.510 --> 27:36.990]  If someone has that information, let us know.
[27:37.210 --> 27:40.370]  Well, if it's a bill it actually has to get past the House.
[27:40.510 --> 27:40.790]  Did it?
[27:41.130 --> 27:41.810]  Oh, yeah, yeah.
[27:41.810 --> 27:42.950]  It got past the House.
[27:43.170 --> 27:48.630]  This is the proposal but I did read yesterday that it passed and I think it passed by a voice vote and there was no opposition.
[27:51.190 --> 27:55.150]  But you have to understand, these people have no understanding of what the net is all about or how it works.
[27:55.390 --> 27:56.490]  So basically...
[27:56.490 --> 27:57.510]  Well, forget the net.
[27:58.130 --> 28:00.030]  They should not be passing laws like this.
[28:00.110 --> 28:05.410]  This should be passed by the net community, not the people out there in old buildings in Washington.
[28:06.130 --> 28:08.810]  At what point does the federal government have jurisdiction here?
[28:09.210 --> 28:10.070]  That's a good point.
[28:10.270 --> 28:11.210]  That's a good point because...
[28:11.210 --> 28:11.970]  Forget the net.
[28:12.110 --> 28:13.030]  It could be international.
[28:13.470 --> 28:15.810]  Somebody in a different part of the world can register this.
[28:15.890 --> 28:20.670]  It's completely illogical and it's just something else that's going to be used for selective prosecution.
[28:20.910 --> 28:23.110]  Like, how do you prosecute somebody for listening to a radio?
[28:23.230 --> 28:27.850]  You don't, except if you find somebody and you don't have anything else on them, it's something else you can get them for.
[28:28.690 --> 28:30.250]  That's really what it is.
[28:30.270 --> 28:33.790]  It's like they're stockpiling laws so that they can use them against people.
[28:35.250 --> 28:37.670]  Let's look at some listener mail here.
[28:39.010 --> 28:42.930]  Congratulations to Kevin Mitnick, the 2600 team, everybody who played a part in spreading the word.
[28:43.210 --> 28:44.350]  Justice still evaded Kevin.
[28:44.490 --> 28:51.850]  He was by no means treated fairly and the remaining aspects of his sentencing are still unacceptable given his time in jail without bail or trial.
[28:52.170 --> 29:00.290]  But, that matter, save his probation, or supervised release will soon be behind him, so we can at least celebrate that.
[29:01.230 --> 29:03.570]  I look forward to listening to Kevin alongside Bernie S.
[29:03.630 --> 29:04.830]  and off the hook sometime in the future.
[29:05.030 --> 29:10.210]  I look forward to replacing the free Kevin bumper sticker in my car with the Kevin is free bumper sticker when this is all said and done.
[29:10.370 --> 29:11.990]  They could add a D, freed Kevin.
[29:12.350 --> 29:12.750]  Yeah.
[29:13.290 --> 29:14.850]  We'll have to figure something out like that.
[29:15.110 --> 29:15.270]  Okay.
[29:15.590 --> 29:18.470]  Unfortunately, many years in the future given his probation sentence.
[29:19.190 --> 29:20.490]  Alessa, good job all around.
[29:20.710 --> 29:21.590]  Congratulations, signed.
[29:22.010 --> 29:22.750]  Echo Mirage.
[29:22.890 --> 29:25.210]  I want to thank everybody who's showed support.
[29:25.310 --> 29:28.750]  We filled the courtroom again yesterday in Los Angeles.
[29:28.930 --> 29:33.290]  I want to thank everybody who made the trip, especially after the last time where they canceled it on us.
[29:33.470 --> 29:38.050]  You know, after so many people traveled, some people traveled from as far away as San Diego and other parts of California.
[29:38.330 --> 29:42.390]  I think some people came in from other parts of the country too, just to be told, hey, it's not happening today.
[29:43.890 --> 29:45.230]  But it didn't stop them.
[29:45.330 --> 29:47.370]  They came back or more people came.
[29:48.610 --> 29:58.850]  And it really, it really does make a difference when you're up there being tried and judged just to see people there who aren't hostile.
[29:59.150 --> 30:00.690]  It makes all the difference in the world.
[30:03.650 --> 30:05.570]  So, that's where that stands.
[30:05.750 --> 30:07.970]  Of course, we'll be updating people as things progress.
[30:08.170 --> 30:19.610]  I think it's still possible, and I'm not an expert here, maybe somebody who is can advise me, but the judge can basically recommend going to a halfway house.
[30:19.650 --> 30:20.850]  It's up to the Bureau of Prisons.
[30:20.850 --> 30:22.730]  of Prisons to figure out what they're going to do with them.
[30:22.850 --> 30:24.910]  They could still send him to a halfway house.
[30:25.110 --> 30:26.570]  I wouldn't hold my breath.
[30:26.570 --> 30:33.990]  I wouldn't either, but I don't know how that works when a judge doesn't actually sentence him to go to a certain place where the Bureau of Prisons does.
[30:34.570 --> 30:35.110]  Who knows?
[30:35.210 --> 30:38.810]  Maybe somebody in the Bureau of Prisons is in a good mood and we'll send him to a halfway house.
[30:41.390 --> 30:42.670]  I still wouldn't hold my breath.
[30:42.950 --> 30:45.010]  You know, you have to like, try to get into their heads, though.
[30:45.110 --> 30:46.010]  What are they afraid of?
[30:46.410 --> 30:48.350]  You know, they're afraid he's going to run away, you know.
[30:49.530 --> 30:52.970]  If anyone's earned the right to run away and never come back, I think it's Kevin.
[30:54.230 --> 30:59.050]  But, um, he's a person of honor.
[30:59.190 --> 31:05.410]  I don't think he would, you know, just go against his word and run away and forget about his family and his friends.
[31:06.230 --> 31:07.470]  I really don't think that would happen.
[31:09.570 --> 31:11.270]  Well, a couple of other letters here.
[31:11.890 --> 31:14.690]  I just want to comment on your mention of the AP in your show.
[31:14.770 --> 31:17.690]  That was last week when we were talking about the demonstration in Berkeley.
[31:18.630 --> 31:29.650]  While I agree that the 1,000-10,000 era was a big one, it was the story where the people marching for KPFA was listed by Associated Press as over 1,000 when an actuality is over...
[31:29.650 --> 31:30.550]  A little decimal problem.
[31:30.550 --> 31:31.530]  Over 10,000.
[31:31.990 --> 31:32.430]  Yeah.
[31:33.010 --> 31:34.490]  I agree that era was a big one.
[31:35.050 --> 31:38.330]  I disagree with your portrayal of the AP as some monolithic corporate entity.
[31:38.530 --> 31:46.690]  The Associated Press is very decentralized in that its stories are often written by local journalists, and these stories are provided to other news outlets, big and small, around the globe.
[31:47.150 --> 31:51.830]  Any subscriber, no matter how small, gets access to news resources, no single entity can match.
[31:52.290 --> 32:00.290]  The organization is democratically run by its members, mostly local media, and free from domination of the corporate interests controlling, say, CNN or ABC News.
[32:02.930 --> 32:04.030]  That's written by Mike.
[32:04.090 --> 32:06.610]  Well, Mike, that's commendable.
[32:06.830 --> 32:14.910]  I mean, I like the way it sounds like they're being run, but the fact remains, they really are the only source of news in this country, unfortunately.
[32:15.310 --> 32:18.230]  There should be five news agencies like that.
[32:18.330 --> 32:19.830]  No, in a country this size, it should be a hundred.
[32:20.670 --> 32:21.850]  There's no question about that.
[32:23.130 --> 32:27.810]  And I still have not seen, and if someone has, please let me know, a correction.
[32:28.350 --> 32:34.830]  I haven't seen a correction run by the Associated Press saying, whoops, we underestimated by a thousand percent.
[32:34.990 --> 32:36.610]  They were still technically correct.
[32:36.610 --> 32:42.110]  Well, they could say more than one person showed up, too, and they'd be technically right, but it wouldn't be exactly accurate now, would it?
[32:42.210 --> 32:44.610]  No, it's a poor portrayal, but...
[32:44.610 --> 32:46.530]  Yeah, they deserve better.
[32:47.730 --> 32:49.430]  Updates on the KPFA situation.
[32:49.430 --> 32:52.350]  KPFA went back on the air last Thursday, I believe.
[32:52.830 --> 32:58.910]  Yeah, you can listen to them live on the internet by going to their website, www.kpfa.org.
[33:00.570 --> 33:07.090]  And it's been very interesting radio, both here and there, and listening to both stations virtually nonstop.
[33:07.090 --> 33:15.050]  I gotta tell you, when a crisis like this happens, that involves freedom of speech, that involves the very radio station itself.
[33:15.410 --> 33:17.110]  I think that's when you see the best in people.
[33:17.230 --> 33:31.170]  I think that's when you see the best in listeners, the best in programmers, the best in programming, and that's when you realize why it matters so much, why radio is so important, why it's always the first thing that gets shut down when there's a revolution or invasion or whatever.
[33:33.390 --> 33:37.650]  And it's inspiring, and I think I've probably got a whole lot more listeners because of it, too, which is kind of cool.
[33:38.130 --> 33:42.290]  But, you know, something really funny, I guess, is that a word for it?
[33:42.350 --> 33:56.070]  If you go to the The Pacifica website, www.pacifica.org, and you go to the section that I believe is about radio stations, sister stations, some section like that.
[33:56.090 --> 33:58.070]  If you rummage around, you'll find it.
[33:58.250 --> 34:01.030]  It's a list of all the stations, all the stations in the Pacifica network.
[34:01.410 --> 34:04.570]  KPFA, KPFK, KPFT, WBAI, and WPFW.
[34:04.730 --> 34:07.130]  And they all have links to their webpages.
[34:07.550 --> 34:09.770]  The link to KPFA has been taken out.
[34:10.570 --> 34:12.810]  They no longer have a link on their Pacifica homepage.
[34:12.990 --> 34:16.390]  I don't know how many people would have noticed this, but I think it's kind of significant.
[34:17.250 --> 34:20.090]  Somebody down there decided to drop a link.
[34:21.550 --> 34:22.930]  Maybe it's just a typo.
[34:23.050 --> 34:25.450]  Maybe it's just a Y2K thing.
[34:25.610 --> 34:26.390]  We'll just have to see.
[34:28.610 --> 34:30.650]  So, that's the latest from there.
[34:30.790 --> 34:42.270]  Also, one other development from here in New York, and that happened last Tuesday, where the local advisory board voted unanimously to express no confidence and demand the resignation of the chairman of the board.
[34:44.350 --> 34:45.910]  Of Pacifica National Board, that is.
[34:46.090 --> 34:47.970]  So, the crisis continues.
[34:48.110 --> 34:53.870]  The crisis continues, and you can continue to listen to us to find out what's going on, because we'll tell you.
[34:54.230 --> 34:55.410]  You're not going to keep secrets.
[34:57.230 --> 34:58.730]  All right, let's take some phone calls.
[34:59.650 --> 35:01.170]  If you have some secrets, you can tell us.
[35:01.350 --> 35:02.030]  Oh, we have a question.
[35:02.110 --> 35:03.870]  We have a question for the listeners out there.
[35:04.390 --> 35:06.070]  Sort of a survey, kind of a poll.
[35:07.190 --> 35:11.970]  We're very, very, very close to making the final arrangements for H2K.
[35:12.490 --> 35:16.970]  H2K, H2K being HOPE 2000, the third HOPE conference, the biggest one ever.
[35:18.170 --> 35:19.670]  You look shocked.
[35:20.130 --> 35:21.130]  Oh, I am shocked.
[35:21.230 --> 35:22.110]  It is the biggest one ever.
[35:22.270 --> 35:23.070]  It's going to be huge.
[35:23.870 --> 35:25.350]  And it's going to be really cool.
[35:25.730 --> 35:27.090]  But that's a given.
[35:28.150 --> 35:30.410]  We're debating when to have it exactly.
[35:30.790 --> 35:34.810]  Whether late June or mid-July would be best.
[35:34.810 --> 35:37.450]  And that's kind of what we are asking people tonight.
[35:37.650 --> 35:49.090]  If we're thinking, like, you know, the early 20s of June, like the 23rd, 24th in that particular area, or mid-July, you know, like the 15th or something like that.
[35:49.510 --> 35:50.890]  You seem to have an opinion there.
[35:51.090 --> 35:51.830]  I like mid-July.
[35:51.950 --> 35:52.150]  You like mid-July?
[35:52.150 --> 35:55.130]  It'll give us more time to recover from the whole H2K thing.
[35:55.830 --> 35:56.910]  That's seven months.
[35:57.090 --> 35:58.730]  Well, you know, it's a pretty big problem.
[35:58.910 --> 36:02.710]  Just because you're going to get lost out in the dry Tortugas or something doesn't mean that...
[36:02.710 --> 36:06.030]  It'll take me a while back to, you know, kayak my way back to New York.
[36:07.590 --> 36:13.090]  Like I said, I'm going to be right there in Times Square January 1st when the ball drops and when everything else drops.
[36:14.290 --> 36:14.810]  Have fun.
[36:15.230 --> 36:16.690]  Yeah, well, maybe I'll be the only person there.
[36:16.770 --> 36:19.570]  Maybe everybody else will hightail it out to, you know, Guam or something.
[36:19.810 --> 36:20.110]  I don't know.
[36:20.410 --> 36:21.290]  Yeah, it would be kind of wacky.
[36:21.290 --> 36:23.550]  Just kind of standing there in the middle of nowhere watching a ball drop.
[36:23.750 --> 36:26.110]  So you vote for mid-July.
[36:26.270 --> 36:27.410]  Yeah, regardless of why you kayak.
[36:27.410 --> 36:28.590]  What's wrong with late June?
[36:28.930 --> 36:29.510]  What's wrong with late June?
[36:32.710 --> 36:34.190]  John, people are out of school then, aren't they?
[36:34.770 --> 36:35.110]  Are they?
[36:35.290 --> 36:35.830]  I think so.
[36:35.910 --> 36:36.870]  Well, that's another thing.
[36:36.990 --> 36:43.150]  If those of you who are in school will be traveling cross-country or cross-world, would you be out of school by late June?
[36:43.150 --> 36:44.810]  I think most people get out of school in early June.
[36:45.010 --> 36:45.250]  Yeah.
[36:45.410 --> 36:45.830]  But maybe not.
[36:45.970 --> 36:46.590]  Portia, what do you think?
[36:47.390 --> 36:49.510]  I must go for the second choice as well.
[36:49.770 --> 36:50.990]  It gives us more time.
[36:51.150 --> 36:52.110]  Well, yeah, okay.
[36:52.290 --> 36:54.290]  You know, we're not thinking of ourselves here.
[36:54.350 --> 36:55.050]  We're not thinking of...
[36:55.050 --> 36:55.650]  No, no, not at all.
[36:55.650 --> 36:58.230]  I mean, we could do this thing in September then and have a lot of time.
[36:58.230 --> 36:59.470]  But we want to know what's better.
[36:59.590 --> 37:01.150]  Keep in mind, the weather is better in June.
[37:02.050 --> 37:03.670]  Remember the July just happened now?
[37:03.870 --> 37:04.550]  That was a nightmare.
[37:04.910 --> 37:06.150]  It was like walking through a sauna.
[37:06.250 --> 37:07.650]  On the West Coast, it was cold.
[37:08.130 --> 37:09.510]  But we're not on the West Coast.
[37:09.510 --> 37:10.170]  We're in New York.
[37:10.310 --> 37:11.090]  It could happen again.
[37:11.250 --> 37:12.630]  It could happen again.
[37:13.310 --> 37:14.910]  Yeah, and it might not happen again.
[37:15.170 --> 37:16.410]  All right, yeah, we are in an air-conditioned hotel.
[37:16.430 --> 37:16.870]  That's true.
[37:17.010 --> 37:19.910]  But people do sometimes walk outside, and we don't want them collapsing.
[37:20.190 --> 37:23.290]  All right, folks, when would you want to visit New York in June or July?
[37:24.010 --> 37:31.090]  And the other thing, and maybe somebody out there knows the answer to this, we have no information as to when the next DEFCON is going to be.
[37:32.290 --> 37:34.370]  That could be right at the exact same time.
[37:34.490 --> 37:35.450]  That's another thing.
[37:35.510 --> 37:39.030]  But if they have not yet announced it, then I guess it hasn't yet been set.
[37:39.210 --> 37:41.590]  So if anybody knows any information about that, please call us as well.
[37:41.770 --> 37:44.390]  Phone number is 212-209-2900.
[37:44.390 --> 37:49.610]  If you're out of the country, our country code is 1, but you probably already know that since we're the biggest country on Earth.
[37:51.450 --> 37:53.210]  Well, biggest as far as threat.
[37:53.570 --> 37:53.930]  Oh.
[37:55.570 --> 37:57.410]  That's still debatable, but...
[37:57.410 --> 37:58.710]  To ourselves, how about that?
[37:58.810 --> 38:00.110]  Okay, yes, I'll agree.
[38:00.530 --> 38:01.830]  Phrase we can all live with.
[38:02.110 --> 38:03.390]  Let's take our first phone call.
[38:03.470 --> 38:05.310]  Who's got the good record here with picking a phone number?
[38:05.650 --> 38:06.570]  Look over that way.
[38:06.670 --> 38:08.070]  Okay, so far you're batting 1,000.
[38:08.530 --> 38:09.910]  This is for the non-Rebel line.
[38:09.970 --> 38:10.270]  Go ahead.
[38:11.210 --> 38:11.510]  All right.
[38:12.050 --> 38:12.870]  Number one through ten.
[38:13.110 --> 38:14.190]  Control rooms, we'll try room three.
[38:14.550 --> 38:14.790]  Three?
[38:14.950 --> 38:15.670]  Three isn't lit.
[38:16.210 --> 38:17.370]  So yeah, technically you're right.
[38:17.570 --> 38:17.730]  Ha!
[38:18.750 --> 38:19.270]  All right.
[38:19.430 --> 38:20.290]  Wait, I think we got somebody.
[38:20.390 --> 38:20.910]  Is anybody there?
[38:22.510 --> 38:23.470]  We have music.
[38:23.590 --> 38:23.830]  That's old music.
[38:26.350 --> 38:27.730]  I don't know where that's coming from.
[38:27.770 --> 38:29.010]  I just hope that's not coming from us.
[38:29.350 --> 38:30.050]  That'd be horrible.
[38:30.150 --> 38:32.430]  Imagine putting music like that on hold for BAI people.
[38:32.930 --> 38:33.670]  That'd be wrong.
[38:34.090 --> 38:34.330]  All right.
[38:34.430 --> 38:34.950]  Pick another number.
[38:36.310 --> 38:36.790]  All right.
[38:37.230 --> 38:37.550]  All right.
[38:37.670 --> 38:38.270]  We can't take forever.
[38:38.450 --> 38:38.510]  Six.
[38:39.010 --> 38:39.710]  Six is awesome.
[38:39.830 --> 38:40.990]  I don't know how you know these aren't lit.
[38:41.010 --> 38:41.850]  Three plus two plus one.
[38:41.910 --> 38:42.830]  Three control rooms at six.
[38:42.970 --> 38:43.170]  All right.
[38:43.550 --> 38:44.290]  I'm picking seven.
[38:45.270 --> 38:46.390]  No more chances here.
[38:46.390 --> 38:46.750]  Good evening.
[38:46.770 --> 38:47.210]  You're on the air.
[38:48.070 --> 38:48.390]  Emmanuel?
[38:48.570 --> 38:49.010]  Yes, go ahead.
[38:49.130 --> 38:50.130]  Hey, this is David.David.
[38:50.630 --> 38:51.210]  How you doing?
[38:51.490 --> 38:54.610]  First time I've ever called into the radio show after being on it so many times.
[38:54.670 --> 38:56.710]  Don't be nervous because millions of people are listening.
[38:56.890 --> 38:59.490]  It's, you know, it's just, it's radio.
[38:59.770 --> 39:01.350]  Well, listen, I'm ecstatic about Kevin.
[39:01.350 --> 39:09.230]  I mean, having worked with his lawyer over the last couple of years and speaking with his, members of his family, um, I'm just, you know, I'm glad that he's out.
[39:09.490 --> 39:09.930]  Mm-hmm.
[39:10.250 --> 39:10.970]  Well, and I out it.
[39:11.070 --> 39:11.850]  Well, he's not really out.
[39:11.970 --> 39:14.830]  He won't be out for a while and he won't actually be finished for quite a while.
[39:14.970 --> 39:20.810]  Well, I mean, after a lot of the phone calls I used to get, get from him when he was in jail, like, for three months I got, like, phone calls every week.
[39:21.470 --> 39:27.590]  And just, you know, to, to know that he's going to be in some place better than he was, all that screaming and yelling in the background, gone.
[39:27.910 --> 39:28.210]  Mm-hmm.
[39:28.510 --> 39:30.590]  Um, it's just a relief.
[39:30.590 --> 39:43.350]  I mean, I was, I was reading the, uh, the finding of the judge and it was sort of funny because she said that, um, she's, the restitution is like $4,125 because she knows that he can't pay one and a half million.
[39:43.750 --> 39:46.910]  And her rationale was that he has to pay something.
[39:47.710 --> 39:51.130]  Yet, I'm not exactly sure how they got to that number, 4125.
[39:52.070 --> 40:00.470]  But that's if they use the same rationale to say he shouldn't spend five years in prison because that's an absurd number of years to spend in time, you know, for something like this.
[40:00.810 --> 40:02.410]  Okay, I understand restitution, 4125.
[40:02.930 --> 40:04.790]  Okay, I can, I, I can deal with this.
[40:05.030 --> 40:06.650]  And who gets the 4125, too?
[40:06.770 --> 40:09.050]  I was about to say, does that go to everyone or just, you know...
[40:09.050 --> 40:11.390]  Does, like, Sun get a check for, like, $30 or something?
[40:12.370 --> 40:13.530]  I'd like to, I'd like a breakdown.
[40:13.690 --> 40:14.350]  I really want to know.
[40:14.510 --> 40:15.710]  And who actually gets...
[40:15.710 --> 40:15.850]  It's $350.
[40:16.610 --> 40:16.910]  Mm-hmm.
[40:17.350 --> 40:20.950]  I mean, I know people who get fined more than that, you know, like for outstanding parking tickets.
[40:29.950 --> 40:38.990]  Now, if this was really a serious case, and I'm speaking with complete legal ignorance here, but it seems to me that since he's obviously unable to pay millions of dollars, that that part should just be wiped completely.
[40:39.150 --> 40:42.570]  It's, you know, 4125 if he caused hundreds of millions of dollars of damage is kind of a joke.
[40:42.890 --> 40:46.490]  But if it was a serious thing, then they should fine him a huge amount.
[40:46.570 --> 40:51.710]  Like a $5,000 fine to the federal government would say, wow, this is a serious crime.
[40:51.830 --> 40:55.250]  Instead, it's a $350 fine, and he pays $4,000 in restitution.
[40:55.250 --> 40:56.990]  And tells me this whole thing was a joke.
[40:57.210 --> 41:02.650]  Well, I mean, one other thing is we should probably look at trying to help him out to pay this.
[41:03.090 --> 41:03.810]  I mean...
[41:03.810 --> 41:04.770]  Well, here's the thing.
[41:05.250 --> 41:06.730]  This has been brought up in a few places.
[41:07.330 --> 41:09.630]  The restitution has to come from Kevin, that's like...
[41:09.630 --> 41:11.790]  Or it has to at least have the appearance of coming from Kevin.
[41:11.870 --> 41:15.270]  If someone just writes a check for him, I think that's frowned upon very much.
[41:15.490 --> 41:26.310]  But when Kevin gets out, Kevin is going to need a lot of help as far as getting back on his feet, as far as being able to survive, because he's basically been denied a living since he won't be allowed to go near computers.
[41:27.350 --> 41:32.710]  So, it would be nice if there was something waiting for him so that he doesn't have to worry the day he gets out of prison.
[41:32.710 --> 41:35.450]  And I think it would be a nice gesture to people to donate to a fund like that.
[41:35.570 --> 41:36.670]  We have some time to get it together.
[41:37.070 --> 41:38.850]  Do we know where he's going to be resettling at all, or...?
[41:39.250 --> 41:41.450]  I do not know yet how that's going to be working out.
[41:42.470 --> 41:43.890]  Okay, on to H2K.
[41:44.090 --> 41:44.350]  Mm-hmm.
[41:45.070 --> 41:46.410]  Before the dates are concerned...
[41:46.410 --> 41:46.590]  Yes.
[41:47.230 --> 41:52.810]  ...that week in June that you're picking is also the week that a huge computer expo is going to be in town, PC Expo?
[41:54.010 --> 41:56.590]  So, it's the week, and this would be the weekend before it.
[41:57.010 --> 41:57.690]  Right, but what's that?
[41:57.830 --> 42:00.110]  I mean, it's still going to be a lot of craziness in the city.
[42:00.310 --> 42:00.590]  Right.
[42:00.750 --> 42:02.290]  And is that a good thing, or is that a bad thing?
[42:02.350 --> 42:03.190]  It's probably a bad thing.
[42:03.610 --> 42:04.550]  Craziness is a bad thing.
[42:04.850 --> 42:05.850]  That's strange coming from you.
[42:07.130 --> 42:07.850]  Well, thank you.
[42:09.970 --> 42:10.610]  You're not a rebel.
[42:10.670 --> 42:11.670]  I have to take it out on somebody.
[42:11.970 --> 42:12.610]  Okay, there you go.
[42:13.830 --> 42:15.190]  But July is...
[42:15.190 --> 42:17.390]  I think the middle of July is going to be better.
[42:18.270 --> 42:19.250]  A lot more relaxed.
[42:19.510 --> 42:22.650]  June is still, you know, there's a lot too much hustle and bustle going on.
[42:22.650 --> 42:24.950]  All right, so far it's three votes for mid-July.
[42:25.350 --> 42:28.830]  I'm not voting, because, you know, I just don't think it's right for me to vote.
[42:28.890 --> 42:29.650]  I don't want to influence people.
[42:29.730 --> 42:31.770]  I'm just saying the pros and cons of each.
[42:31.950 --> 42:35.370]  Did you get the message I left you about the site?
[42:35.510 --> 42:37.370]  I left you the guy's number and everything else.
[42:37.370 --> 42:39.750]  I have 5,000 messages, so I have not checked them yet.
[42:40.310 --> 42:40.630]  Well...
[42:40.630 --> 42:44.230]  We've been very busy working on the film and just haven't had time to do anything else.
[42:44.230 --> 42:47.510]  I'll get in contact with you later on and give you the exact information.
[42:47.550 --> 42:52.230]  We paid the bills, cleaned the office, even putting out an issue is stressful right now.
[42:52.330 --> 42:53.530]  Oh, yeah, that whole little magazine thing.
[42:53.590 --> 42:56.730]  The magazine thing, which we're involved in, yeah, we've been neglecting that.
[42:56.910 --> 42:58.050]  It's all we can do to show up here.
[42:59.270 --> 43:01.150]  But, yeah, we'll get to the messages.
[43:01.290 --> 43:02.090]  We will, definitely.
[43:02.470 --> 43:02.810]  There you go.
[43:03.110 --> 43:03.410]  All right.
[43:03.630 --> 43:04.410]  Hey, we'll talk to you later.
[43:04.570 --> 43:04.750]  All right.
[43:04.870 --> 43:05.130]  Bye, Dave.
[43:05.230 --> 43:05.550]  Take care.
[43:05.690 --> 43:05.770]  Bye.
[43:07.830 --> 43:09.130]  For some reason, it's not hanging up.
[43:09.250 --> 43:09.850]  Okay, let's go over here.
[43:09.950 --> 43:10.210]  Good evening.
[43:10.330 --> 43:11.030]  You're on the air.
[43:13.210 --> 43:14.230]  It's the hold music again.
[43:14.310 --> 43:15.450]  The hold music's calling us now.
[43:15.590 --> 43:16.510]  This is really not right.
[43:16.590 --> 43:16.830]  Good evening.
[43:16.910 --> 43:17.270]  You're on the air.
[43:17.990 --> 43:18.210]  Hi.
[43:18.430 --> 43:31.930]  I don't know if you've got a chance to see it or talk about this very, very important freedom of speech case going on, having to do with, even though it's a station we don't necessarily care for, but it must be mentioned, WABC and the guy that sent faxes.
[43:32.170 --> 43:32.470]  Uh-huh.
[43:33.390 --> 43:34.310]  This is really important.
[43:34.450 --> 43:35.290]  The guy who sent faxes.
[43:35.870 --> 43:37.990]  A listener sent some faxes.
[43:38.730 --> 43:40.450]  Uh, well, it's okay.
[43:40.670 --> 43:47.350]  Let's start out with one of the hosts, Malzberg, and I'm allowed to mention names because they're a public figure and it's in the New York Post.
[43:47.470 --> 43:49.310]  Just make it quick because we have a lot of calls to go through.
[43:49.310 --> 43:54.050]  Okay, uh, he said, Malzberg said something very negative about shooting immigrants in the back.
[43:54.270 --> 43:55.590]  A listener faxed...
[43:55.590 --> 43:57.390]  He said something negative about shooting immigrants?
[43:57.490 --> 43:58.950]  I'd say something negative about that, too.
[43:59.070 --> 44:00.510]  You mean, he was advocating it?
[44:01.450 --> 44:03.010]  The host said...
[44:03.010 --> 44:05.350]  The host said something like that.
[44:05.470 --> 44:05.750]  Uh-huh.
[44:05.810 --> 44:06.870]  I don't know the quote.
[44:07.310 --> 44:09.690]  That all immigrants should be shot in the back.
[44:10.070 --> 44:12.190]  Well, keep in mind what you're listening to.
[44:13.110 --> 44:14.730]  That's the kind of thing you're expecting to hear there.
[44:14.870 --> 44:15.650]  I know, but that's not it.
[44:15.710 --> 44:16.170]  That's not it.
[44:16.290 --> 44:16.550]  Uh-huh.
[44:16.930 --> 44:24.630]  Let me just get to this point that he sent the police on a listener who sent faxes in that were not threatening...
[44:24.630 --> 44:26.270]  They were not threatening faxes.
[44:26.450 --> 44:26.710]  Uh-huh.
[44:26.710 --> 44:31.370]  They were just faxes that said, you know, like silly names and things, but not threatening.
[44:31.530 --> 44:32.990]  And he sent the cops on him.
[44:33.230 --> 44:34.630]  The guy was arraigned.
[44:35.070 --> 44:37.410]  This is a big freedom of speech, if you ask me.
[44:37.730 --> 44:38.930]  He was arraigned...
[44:38.930 --> 44:43.670]  I feel so much more sophisticated here in Pacifica where we're rallying in the street and not calling cops on each other.
[44:43.930 --> 44:54.170]  Yeah, well, he has four counts of criminal prosecution, and, you know, especially in context of a radio station openly soliciting faxes.
[44:54.430 --> 44:54.630]  Uh-huh.
[44:54.690 --> 45:00.070]  And Norman Siegel finds it unusual and troubling, and there's a whole case going on about it.
[45:00.150 --> 45:01.390]  Are they talking about it on the air at all?
[45:01.950 --> 45:10.410]  No one's talking about it on the air yet, because they themselves aren't permitted to talk about it, that the ABC guys aren't allowed to talk about it because they're in court.
[45:10.970 --> 45:15.690]  And because they are the station that they are, this station doesn't pay any mind.
[45:15.690 --> 45:16.650]  But I think it's wrong.
[45:16.750 --> 45:18.250]  I think it's a major freedom of speech issue.
[45:18.250 --> 45:19.750]  Has it been in the newspapers at all?
[45:19.750 --> 45:23.470]  It was in yesterday's post on page 75.
[45:23.870 --> 45:24.370]  The post?
[45:24.490 --> 45:25.650]  And it was, uh, W.E.B.D.
[45:25.710 --> 45:26.590]  was talking about it today.
[45:26.770 --> 45:27.070]  Uh-huh.
[45:27.530 --> 45:44.910]  So it is, it is out, it is an issue, and it needs to be, uh, discussed, and I think it needs to be handled in a way that I can't, I'm not allowed to, uh, uh, you know, make decisions for people, but, or make suggestions to what anybody does, but I personally will be calling the station and,
[45:44.910 --> 45:46.670]  uh, their, uh, attorneys.
[45:46.670 --> 45:49.830]  And he's, you know, saying how much I disagree with it.
[45:49.990 --> 45:50.270]  Okay.
[45:50.530 --> 45:51.510]  Well, you got the word out.
[45:51.850 --> 45:52.650]  Thanks, thanks for calling.
[45:52.890 --> 45:55.690]  I got a feeling there's more going on there than meets the eye.
[45:55.990 --> 45:59.450]  Well, there's always more going on than meets the eye, but, uh, I don't know.
[45:59.630 --> 46:01.630]  We have to, we have to hear more of the facts.
[46:01.770 --> 46:02.810]  That would be helpful.
[46:03.510 --> 46:03.870]  Yes.
[46:04.090 --> 46:04.990]  Well, do you know more of the facts?
[46:05.150 --> 46:05.330]  No.
[46:05.330 --> 46:07.110]  So you know as much as I do about this.
[46:07.230 --> 46:10.470]  But I am reserving comment until I can actually get the facts.
[46:10.470 --> 46:11.790]  Sounds like you're making a comment.
[46:11.970 --> 46:13.030]  Sounds like you're making a comment.
[46:13.190 --> 46:16.470]  Oh, I'm making a failed comment, but it's not necessarily...
[46:16.470 --> 46:22.610]  In your face, you're poo-pooing the, uh, the person who called in, saying that, uh, this is, this is not exactly the way it seems to be.
[46:22.690 --> 46:27.290]  I don't know, you know, I, I, I'm not saying anything one way or another, but, uh, wacky things like that do happen.
[46:27.510 --> 46:28.030]  Oh, they do.
[46:35.330 --> 46:37.610]  You know, the mob and not, you know, be silent.
[46:37.690 --> 46:39.410]  Especially if you have a radio station, for God's sake.
[46:39.570 --> 46:40.610]  Well, there are legal implications.
[46:40.850 --> 46:41.730]  I mean, you, never mind.
[46:41.790 --> 46:42.230]  Legal shriegel.
[46:42.230 --> 46:42.570]  Next call.
[46:42.990 --> 46:49.150]  Uh, before we go to the next call, we have, uh, we have a, um, a special feature that, uh, we brought in with us.
[46:49.190 --> 46:56.630]  Actually, we've been meaning to play this ever since Las Vegas, uh, where, um, we had kind of a, a weird phone in our hotel room.
[46:56.730 --> 46:58.550]  Porkchop, maybe you want to, uh, set this up.
[46:58.950 --> 47:02.270]  Well, uh, first hotel we stayed at in Vegas was the Alexis Park.
[47:02.730 --> 47:04.990]  Uh, their voicemail system, uh, features.
[47:05.330 --> 47:10.130]  Like most hotels, a little button that you press and it says, you have messages here, you've got messages there.
[47:10.270 --> 47:11.210]  You can make your own greeting.
[47:11.450 --> 47:13.350]  You can have all kinds of neat little things going on there.
[47:13.450 --> 47:13.750]  Yeah, yeah.
[47:13.890 --> 47:15.230]  You can make your own greeting, change your password.
[47:15.610 --> 47:16.150]  It's great.
[47:16.430 --> 47:17.510]  We have lots of fun with that.
[47:18.110 --> 47:22.850]  And, and, and many hotels, they have default passwords and, well, there's no end of fun you can have with those.
[47:23.010 --> 47:23.090]  Mm-hmm.
[47:23.230 --> 47:26.150]  Change other people's greetings, you know, say shocking things.
[47:27.330 --> 47:33.790]  Well, this is one that, um, when we, when we got in our, in our, uh, hotel room, we found this, um, why don't we just play it and, uh.
[47:34.370 --> 47:37.930]  Yeah, we pressed the button to find out how many messages we had.
[47:38.090 --> 47:40.650]  And this is what we heard.
[47:49.620 --> 47:52.420]  Hello, mailbox 2113.
[47:52.940 --> 47:55.960]  You have no unplayed messages in your mailbox.
[47:56.260 --> 47:57.740]  One saved message.
[47:58.060 --> 48:02.760]  500-3,553 text message.
[48:02.980 --> 48:03.440]  Apple-text
[48:06.760 --> 48:07.360]  messages.
[48:07.600 --> 48:09.540]  Now, we did that.
[48:10.880 --> 48:12.640]  We went to the front desk.
[48:13.080 --> 48:14.060]  And, you know, they wouldn't give us...
[48:14.060 --> 48:15.880]  Were you able to find it under the mountain of paper?
[48:16.740 --> 48:19.440]  They claimed, all right, that there were no messages for us.
[48:20.060 --> 48:21.800]  And that there was some kind of...
[48:21.800 --> 48:23.620]  You see, it was a hacker convention in town.
[48:23.820 --> 48:27.680]  So they tried to blame the hackers, even though this happened before the convention actually started.
[48:28.200 --> 48:29.640]  When the rain was doing this.
[48:29.640 --> 48:30.780]  I think it was the floods, yeah.
[48:30.840 --> 48:32.380]  The floods of Vegas last month.
[48:33.280 --> 48:34.880]  Solar flares and floods.
[48:36.260 --> 48:37.900]  We were quite surprised to get that.
[48:38.000 --> 48:38.320]  That's what happened to the paper.
[48:38.420 --> 48:39.740]  They were soaking up all the water outside.
[48:40.000 --> 48:40.420]  Good evening.
[48:40.420 --> 48:41.300]  You're on the radio.
[48:42.000 --> 48:42.380]  Hi.
[48:42.380 --> 48:48.100]  I was wondering, was it totally decided that Mitnick won't be allowed to use a computer for three years?
[48:48.260 --> 48:51.720]  That is what the terms of his supervised release say currently.
[48:51.840 --> 48:59.520]  Now, what the judge said yesterday is that that will be up to his, the equivalent of his probation officer that will decide what he can have access to and when.
[49:00.500 --> 49:03.280]  So it is pretty much set in stone at this point.
[49:03.440 --> 49:05.760]  That doesn't mean we can't still fight it and question it.
[49:05.760 --> 49:06.000]  Right.
[49:06.680 --> 49:18.760]  Oh, and also I just wanted to say that I think June, late June is better because mid-July I plan to have a summer job, you know, next year for sure, and it'd be harder to get off work later than it would be.
[49:18.860 --> 49:20.480]  I could all start work late if it's in late June.
[49:20.580 --> 49:21.120]  What about school?
[49:21.800 --> 49:24.480]  School gets out way earlier than that, so that's fine.
[49:24.680 --> 49:26.140]  Wait, what part of the country are you in?
[49:26.200 --> 49:27.080]  Oh, I'm in Kansas City.
[49:27.160 --> 49:27.640]  Kansas City?
[49:28.020 --> 49:29.440]  When does school tend to get out?
[49:29.500 --> 49:30.480]  That's why I don't know yet.
[49:30.480 --> 49:35.420]  Oh, well, for us, some people get out earlier, but we get out about June 5th or so, June 6th.
[49:35.500 --> 49:38.220]  Because here in New York, it's late June, and that's part of the problem.
[49:38.240 --> 49:39.460]  Yeah, we get out in early June, so we're fine.
[49:39.640 --> 49:39.940]  Okay.
[49:40.380 --> 49:45.040]  You know, some people start school now, like next week, some schools are starting early August.
[49:45.280 --> 49:45.820]  That's really horrible.
[49:45.820 --> 49:46.720]  They start until the end of August.
[49:46.960 --> 49:47.260]  Wow.
[49:47.700 --> 49:48.440]  All right, thanks for calling.
[49:48.520 --> 49:48.680]  Okay.
[49:49.300 --> 49:52.080]  When is Shakespeare in the Park running in Central Park?
[49:52.640 --> 49:54.120]  Because that'd be nice to plan around.
[49:54.600 --> 49:56.680]  Oh yeah, that's a real good mix, Hackers and Shakespeare.
[49:56.900 --> 49:59.720]  That's something that we've been meaning to tap into for quite some time.
[50:00.480 --> 50:00.860]  Wait a second.
[50:01.000 --> 50:01.420]  You mean I'm the only one?
[50:01.420 --> 50:01.540]  Good evening.
[50:01.700 --> 50:02.400]  You're on the air.
[50:02.520 --> 50:02.720]  Hi, Manuel.
[50:02.980 --> 50:03.480]  How you doing?
[50:03.780 --> 50:04.080]  Okay.
[50:04.420 --> 50:05.380]  So nice to hear your voice.
[50:05.380 --> 50:10.480]  I'd just like to mention the fact that Colcott sometimes charge you for calling an 800 number.
[50:10.780 --> 50:11.200]  Yes, they do.
[50:13.060 --> 50:15.300]  You know, does he call us with repeats?
[50:15.820 --> 50:18.980]  If you listen back to 1994, you'll hear that same call.
[50:19.180 --> 50:20.040]  I don't know how he does it.
[50:21.080 --> 50:23.760]  Colcott's been charging people for 800 numbers since they were invented.
[50:25.300 --> 50:26.880]  All right, how many other lines is he going to be on?
[50:27.140 --> 50:27.820]  Let's go over here.
[50:27.900 --> 50:28.180]  Good evening.
[50:28.340 --> 50:28.800]  You're on the air.
[50:29.780 --> 50:30.540]  Speak up, please.
[50:31.220 --> 50:31.660]  Hey, Manuel.
[50:31.860 --> 50:32.260]  How you doing?
[50:32.560 --> 50:32.940]  Hey, yeah.
[50:34.320 --> 50:35.080]  Hold on a second.
[50:35.640 --> 50:37.000]  You're on a cordless phone, apparently.
[50:37.340 --> 50:38.260]  Yeah, unfortunately.
[50:39.060 --> 50:40.120]  Yeah, I just wanted to comment.
[50:40.400 --> 50:45.380]  I was actually going to originally comment on the charges that Mitnick had to pay, the $4,000.
[50:46.400 --> 50:52.960]  And the judge originally didn't want him to pay more, from what I get from the Znet coverage of it.
[50:53.960 --> 51:02.040]  From what I read, I understood that the judge wanted him to pay a full fine, but she only could charge him what he could afford to pay.
[51:02.520 --> 51:09.240]  I think that was her decision, whether or not she could charge him with what he could afford, rather than some vast, incredible number.
[51:09.680 --> 51:10.000]  Yeah.
[51:10.200 --> 51:16.020]  So, I think she could have ordered him to repay an incredible amount, which he never could have repaid.
[51:17.040 --> 51:20.940]  And then he'd just either be in debt the rest of his life, or at some point it just gets lifted.
[51:21.960 --> 51:27.320]  So, yeah, I think she for once made kind of a rational decision there by saying...
[51:27.320 --> 51:34.020]  I mean, I don't think he should be fined with anything, but if she was going to say anything like that, it might as well be a fairly reasonable number.
[51:34.540 --> 51:35.280]  Yeah, I hear you.
[51:35.400 --> 51:38.660]  The one thing that's kind of weird, though, is that he's expected to pay this while he's in prison.
[51:38.800 --> 51:40.280]  I don't know how he's going to pull that off.
[51:41.260 --> 51:47.480]  But from what I was told, he's supposed to pay as much of it as he can while he's in prison, and then once he's out, something on the order of $150 a month.
[51:47.780 --> 51:47.960]  Yeah.
[51:48.620 --> 51:51.580]  Hey, have you guys paid any attention to the Windows 2000 website?
[51:52.500 --> 51:53.380]  That would be Isaac.
[51:54.600 --> 51:56.560]  Oh, yeah, I always pay attention to Microsoft.
[51:56.660 --> 51:57.640]  You have a Windows head here.
[51:57.800 --> 51:58.880]  Oh, of course.
[51:59.040 --> 51:59.140]  Yeah.
[51:59.460 --> 52:12.500]  I've heard bits and pieces that they had this server, like, up in Washington, and people have been denying it service for nearly around the clock, and Microsoft is blaming it on lightning or something.
[52:12.700 --> 52:13.140]  Oh, yes.
[52:13.480 --> 52:14.320]  They've done everything.
[52:14.320 --> 52:15.880]  You have to check out the traceroute for this thing.
[52:15.960 --> 52:16.420]  It's unbelievable.
[52:16.940 --> 52:17.520]  Oh, yeah.
[52:17.680 --> 52:18.580]  Somebody was showing me that.
[52:18.760 --> 52:21.840]  It bounces around for, like, 50 hops or something.
[52:22.080 --> 52:22.440]  Pages.
[52:22.580 --> 52:24.020]  Pages of IP numbers.
[52:24.180 --> 52:24.600]  It's amazing.
[52:24.940 --> 52:25.300]  Where's...
[52:25.300 --> 52:26.140]  What's the exact address?
[52:27.480 --> 52:28.780]  What webpages are that, you're saying?
[52:28.980 --> 52:31.180]  Yeah, do the traceroute so our listeners can have some fun.
[52:31.880 --> 52:32.900]  I can't hear you, Manuel.
[52:33.080 --> 52:33.260]  Sorry.
[52:33.320 --> 52:35.740]  The exact address so listeners can do the traceroute.
[52:35.960 --> 52:36.300]  Oh.
[52:36.300 --> 52:41.540]  Um, www.windows2000test.com.
[52:43.780 --> 52:44.340]  Windows2000test.com.
[52:44.500 --> 52:44.720]  Okay.
[52:44.840 --> 52:46.400]  Yeah, it's, uh, 2000, you know.
[52:46.500 --> 52:47.800]  Yeah, I got that mail a few times.
[52:47.860 --> 52:49.060]  I just didn't have a chance to check into it.
[52:49.140 --> 52:49.920]  It sounds like a lot of fun, though.
[52:50.100 --> 52:51.200]  Hey, thanks for calling.
[52:51.300 --> 52:52.720]  Let's move on to another phone call.
[52:52.800 --> 52:53.640]  Let's go all the way down here.
[52:53.820 --> 52:54.160]  Good evening.
[52:54.320 --> 52:54.800]  You're on the air.
[52:56.720 --> 52:58.940]  Okay, folks, you gotta speak when I speak.
[52:59.140 --> 53:01.660]  You know, this two-second pause is costing us time.
[53:02.200 --> 53:03.760]  Over a year, that's like, you know, a day.
[53:03.960 --> 53:04.460]  Good evening.
[53:04.500 --> 53:04.920]  You're on the air.
[53:05.020 --> 53:05.280]  Hello.
[53:05.540 --> 53:05.860]  How you doing?
[53:06.360 --> 53:09.440]  Well, uh, I listen to your show now and then.
[53:09.620 --> 53:10.800]  I've heard about this guy.
[53:10.900 --> 53:12.860]  This has been going on for a while, hasn't it?
[53:12.920 --> 53:13.380]  Oh, yes.
[53:13.800 --> 53:14.600]  I'll tell you.
[53:14.780 --> 53:34.340]  Yeah, I don't know exactly what his so-called crime was, but why is it that the very same people, and I mean this in all seriousness, the very same people who have put this guy in for whatever computer hacking, uh, use computers for killing, for drug cartels,
[53:34.580 --> 53:41.280]  for weapon smuggling, for playing real jet fighter games, and they're getting away with murder, rape.
[53:41.480 --> 53:42.340]  I'm not kidding here.
[53:42.660 --> 53:54.400]  And these drug cartels, which is part of the military, they make deals with the military, you also are part of using these computers, now that they've got the money, and they, of course, have the money, and they've got all the technology.
[53:54.920 --> 53:56.820]  Um, they can afford the technology.
[53:57.080 --> 53:58.420]  They play the same game.
[53:58.660 --> 53:59.820]  They're torturing people.
[54:00.020 --> 54:01.100]  I'm one of those people.
[54:01.320 --> 54:05.600]  They use these in prison, so they send him to a prison, and how are they monitoring him?
[54:05.960 --> 54:07.600]  How are they keeping his records?
[54:07.820 --> 54:10.300]  How are they keeping everybody in line?
[54:10.600 --> 54:13.500]  Through the use of cellular microwaves, computers.
[54:13.500 --> 54:18.420]  And if you don't believe me, that this means you haven't had it experienced on you yet.
[54:18.720 --> 54:19.500]  I know.
[54:19.660 --> 54:21.860]  I'm one of those people, and I try to play the game.
[54:22.100 --> 54:35.620]  I'll tell you, uh, whenever this return of this so-called new age Christ consciousness, or Allah, or whatever you want to call it, comes, I hope that the wrath of God destroys this horrible, horrible 20th century invention.
[54:36.020 --> 54:39.780]  And now, at the same time, I like computers for certain things.
[54:39.780 --> 54:41.180]  I think they can be good uses.
[54:42.060 --> 54:45.020]  It all depends on what you bring to them, and what you put into them.
[54:45.120 --> 54:46.980]  It's like doing theater or anything else.
[54:47.540 --> 54:48.580]  Yeah, they're tools.
[54:48.800 --> 54:49.080]  They're tools.
[54:49.120 --> 54:50.580]  They're tools that can be useful.
[54:51.020 --> 55:04.840]  And, you know, it's like anything else, but people have misused this technology in such evil ways as they did, I don't know, 2,000 years ago when they were nailing people to the crosses.
[55:05.500 --> 55:07.260]  Well, yeah, I guess that was a misuse of the crosses.
[55:07.260 --> 55:12.960]  Yeah, so I suppose we should have gotten rid of nails then, because they could possibly have been used to crucify someone?
[55:13.340 --> 55:17.200]  Well, that's how they did it then, and they've been crucifying people in different ways since.
[55:17.380 --> 55:19.860]  I mean, computers are pretty recent, especially for the public.
[55:20.080 --> 55:26.460]  I mean, actually, the Nazis were using them in the 1940s, 50s, and 60s, and all we got to watch was the Outer Limits.
[55:26.820 --> 55:28.320]  But they were using them on people.
[55:28.500 --> 55:32.220]  It's just that everybody didn't have a PC, so people couldn't get in the war to fight back.
[55:32.220 --> 55:33.320]  But the government had them.
[55:33.780 --> 55:35.680]  I think the timetables are a little screwed up.
[55:35.680 --> 55:38.480]  Yeah, the Nazis weren't really using computers in the 60s, I don't think.
[55:38.600 --> 55:43.060]  But, well, thanks for the call anyway, and it's something to keep an eye out for.
[55:43.400 --> 55:45.720]  I mean, technology has always been abused.
[55:45.960 --> 55:51.480]  The thing is, the people who get accused of abusing the technology, the ones that get thrown in prison, are not the true abusers of technology.
[55:51.560 --> 55:52.720]  And I think that's one point this guy made.
[55:52.720 --> 56:06.300]  And, you know, the people in power are the ones really abusing what technology is, using it for bad, using it to, you know, to import drugs or to kill people or to design, you know, the latest killing machines.
[56:06.400 --> 56:09.660]  I'll counter that with the question, who declares reasonable use?
[56:10.700 --> 56:13.160]  Well, I guess we all do in some form.
[56:13.520 --> 56:15.100]  It's defined by society, you know.
[56:15.300 --> 56:18.480]  It can't really be defined by some cranky old judge somewhere.
[56:18.900 --> 56:19.880]  Let's take one more phone call.
[56:19.880 --> 56:20.160]  Good evening.
[56:20.280 --> 56:20.560]  You're on the air.
[56:21.520 --> 56:21.940]  How are you doing?
[56:22.260 --> 56:22.540]  Pretty good.
[56:22.620 --> 56:22.740]  How are you?
[56:22.740 --> 56:23.400]  My name is Clayton John.
[56:25.680 --> 56:28.520]  Does, like, hackers, is there international law against that?
[56:28.580 --> 56:34.000]  Like, if you're out of the country and you do the same thing, is that, is that, you're still held accountable for those actions?
[56:34.300 --> 56:39.000]  You're held accountable under the jurisdiction that you're at, and be prepared to be extradited.
[56:39.440 --> 56:40.920]  So, let me ask a question.
[56:41.360 --> 56:54.540]  During the war in Yugoslavia, I guess I heard on WBI before where they were going to use hackers to break into the, the, um, that, um, the guy who was in charge of Yugoslavia's bank account to disrupt his account.
[56:54.920 --> 56:56.120]  But wouldn't that be illegal also?
[56:56.260 --> 57:07.780]  Yeah, well, now, you touched upon, you touched upon a really interesting point, because there was talk of using hackers to fight a war to, uh, you know, to do things against evil Slobodan, and Losevich, and any other evil dictator.
[57:08.060 --> 57:09.980]  All of a sudden, it's okay.
[57:10.160 --> 57:16.100]  All of a sudden, it's okay to use hackers as soldiers or as, as pawns in some other propaganda game, you know?
[57:16.320 --> 57:24.120]  We just totally overlook the fact that, hey, isn't this what you're condemning in the first place, uh, violating somebody's access and, and, and doing something without authorization?
[57:24.380 --> 57:27.040]  No, it's okay when you got the, the guns behind you.
[57:27.200 --> 57:29.100]  All of a sudden, you know, you're fighting on the right side.
[57:29.260 --> 57:31.620]  So, the hypocrisy, you could cut it with a knife.
[57:31.780 --> 57:31.900]  Right.
[57:32.040 --> 57:33.160]  Who declares fair use?
[57:33.160 --> 57:33.860]  That's fine.
[57:33.980 --> 57:34.840]  That's what I wanted to bring up.
[57:35.200 --> 57:35.680]  All right.
[57:35.700 --> 57:35.860]  Thanks.
[57:35.960 --> 57:36.520]  Thanks for calling.
[57:36.680 --> 57:36.860]  You're welcome.
[57:37.140 --> 57:38.720]  I think we can squeeze one more real quick one in.
[57:38.800 --> 57:39.180]  Good evening.
[57:39.320 --> 57:39.640]  You're on the air.
[57:41.140 --> 57:41.740]  Speak up, please.
[57:42.460 --> 57:43.040]  Hey, how are you doing?
[57:43.620 --> 57:43.820]  Okay.
[57:44.400 --> 57:45.220]  Turn your radio down, please.
[57:45.900 --> 57:46.280]  All right.
[57:46.360 --> 57:46.840]  Sorry about that.
[57:47.080 --> 57:48.260]  You guys, uh, still on the air?
[57:48.400 --> 57:48.620]  Yes.
[57:48.740 --> 57:49.280]  Make it quick, though.
[57:49.280 --> 57:54.720]  I just wanted to say that, uh, it'd be better in July, because, uh, schools that go on strike tend to get out earlier, uh, into later June.
[57:55.480 --> 57:56.520]  Ah, I forgot about that.
[57:56.580 --> 57:57.620]  The schools that go on strike, yes.
[57:57.620 --> 57:58.000]  That's true.
[57:58.200 --> 57:58.660]  Of course.
[57:58.940 --> 58:00.360]  Well, I think so far, June is winning.
[58:00.360 --> 58:05.800]  But if you want to continue to vote, uh, please send us email at oth at 2600.com.
[58:06.380 --> 58:08.460]  And, uh, we're going to be deciding this pretty soon.
[58:08.460 --> 58:13.400]  And look for, um, look for announcements on www.h2k.net, is it?
[58:13.700 --> 58:14.000]  Yes.
[58:14.140 --> 58:14.320]  Okay.
[58:14.380 --> 58:15.780]  That's, that's, that's the webpage for that.
[58:16.100 --> 58:19.920]  Uh, and we'll have all the details as to when, where, how, and why.
[58:20.900 --> 58:22.260]  A lot of people are asking why.
[58:22.820 --> 58:24.300]  But, um, it's going to be fun.
[58:24.480 --> 58:24.680]  Who?
[58:25.380 --> 58:26.420]  No, no, we know who.
[58:26.800 --> 58:26.960]  Oh.
[58:27.100 --> 58:27.200]  Yeah.
[58:27.700 --> 58:29.700]  This is Emmanuel Goldstein for Porkchop and Isaac.
[58:29.700 --> 58:31.300]  And, uh, everybody else.
[58:31.420 --> 58:31.900]  Thanks for listening.
[58:32.040 --> 58:35.900]  Thanks for being a part of the whole Mitnick, uh, case for the last few years.
[58:36.100 --> 58:37.000]  We're going to keep going, though.
[58:37.120 --> 58:40.100]  We're going to keep updating people on what happens in the months ahead.
[58:40.960 --> 58:41.640]  Until next week.
[58:41.820 --> 58:42.220]  Have a good night.
[58:48.680 --> 58:53.300]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[58:54.120 --> 58:58.800]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[58:59.460 --> 59:01.560]  It couldn't get much worse.
[59:04.440 --> 59:07.000]  Diddly bum, but the best, expect the worst.
[59:07.560 --> 59:09.540]  I hope that's understood.
[59:09.860 --> 59:10.480]  Bum, diddly bum!
[01:00:09.310 --> 01:00:12.730]  This is a theme music for Cat Radio Café.
[01:00:12.810 --> 01:00:13.110]  Oh, yeah.
[01:00:13.350 --> 01:00:14.330]  An arts magazine.
[01:00:14.730 --> 01:00:16.670]  Live on Wednesday nights at 10.
[01:00:16.910 --> 01:00:18.510]  I'm Janet Coleman, the host.
[01:00:18.630 --> 01:00:19.610]  And I'm David Dozer.
[01:00:19.690 --> 01:00:20.870]  The displaced playwright.
[01:00:21.070 --> 01:00:23.210]  This program used to be called by another name.
[01:00:23.210 --> 01:00:26.490]  Now introducing Cat Radio Café.
[01:00:26.650 --> 01:00:28.190]  Cat Radio Café.
[01:00:28.530 --> 01:00:32.510]  Still featuring great interviews with scintillating authors and provocative artists.
[01:00:32.850 --> 01:00:33.510]  Or vice versa.
[01:00:33.770 --> 01:00:36.310]  The latest in theater books, art, and performance.
[01:00:36.510 --> 01:00:37.710]  What's new on the Rialto?
[01:00:38.010 --> 01:00:38.890]  And Ludlow Street.
[01:00:39.130 --> 01:00:42.690]  And one or two of the 137 Poison Arts Minutes.
[01:00:42.790 --> 01:00:43.230]  Of plays.
[01:00:43.490 --> 01:00:46.910]  Radio minutes that take up to 12 and a half hours to produce.
[01:00:47.050 --> 01:00:49.110]  A marketing idea still ahead of its time.
[01:00:49.250 --> 01:00:50.150]  Listen to this tune.
[01:00:50.410 --> 01:00:52.110]  Oh, I can see you cats now.
[01:00:52.230 --> 01:00:52.350]  Hey.
[01:00:52.350 --> 01:00:53.610]  Stop clawing the furniture.
[01:00:53.770 --> 01:00:54.030]  Get down.
[01:00:54.150 --> 01:00:54.990]  Head for the radio.
[01:00:55.390 --> 01:00:55.930]  Yes?
[01:00:56.470 --> 01:00:58.190]  Cat Radio Café.
[01:00:58.370 --> 01:00:59.770]  Cat Radio Café.
[01:00:59.930 --> 01:01:00.990]  Wednesday nights at 10.
[01:01:00.990 --> 01:01:02.530]  Here on WBAI.
[01:01:02.630 --> 01:01:03.870]  Hey, do cats drink coffee?
[01:01:04.030 --> 01:01:05.270]  If it's brewed with fish.
[01:01:12.070 --> 01:01:17.390]  Coming up next on WBAI 99.5 FM New York is Tahir.