[00:01.040 --> 00:02.600]  Let's re-broadcast.
[00:02.700 --> 00:03.440]  Okay, go ahead, Manuel.
[00:03.540 --> 00:03.860]  Let's go.
[00:04.280 --> 00:04.820]  This one over here?
[00:04.880 --> 00:05.340]  No, this one.
[00:18.260 --> 00:28.020]  Join David Wong's mother and the David Wong Support Committee in a candlelight vigil procession Sunday, September 12th, starting at 6 p.m.
[00:28.080 --> 00:31.820]  on Canal and Mott Street, concluding at Chatham Square.
[00:32.300 --> 00:40.520]  David Wong is a Chinese national imprisoned in upstate New York for the last 13 years for a murder he did not commit.
[00:40.520 --> 00:50.120]  Learn about his case, listen to his mother's fight, and come support a community determined to overcome the criminal injustice system.
[00:50.680 --> 00:56.500]  For more information, call 718-461-4010.
[00:57.240 --> 01:01.260]  718-461-4010.
[01:14.960 --> 01:18.920]  And you're listening to Radio Station WBAI in New York.
[01:19.100 --> 01:20.960]  The time is 8 o'clock.
[01:21.340 --> 01:22.560]  Time for Off the Hook.
[01:29.430 --> 01:51.090]  The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a call It could be yet much worse But if they could, they would I'll do the bomb for the best expect of us I hope that's understood But do we know
[03:04.980 --> 03:06.320]  And a good evening to everybody.
[03:06.320 --> 03:07.520]  The program is Off the Hook.
[03:07.680 --> 03:10.560]  It's Emmanuel Goldstein here with you for the next hour.
[03:11.280 --> 03:12.780]  Or however long we last.
[03:13.340 --> 03:14.200]  Good evening, Isaac.
[03:14.400 --> 03:14.520]  How are you?
[03:14.820 --> 03:15.140]  All right.
[03:15.220 --> 03:15.500]  So yourself?
[03:16.000 --> 03:17.620]  Oh, it's been a fun week.
[03:18.000 --> 03:22.400]  It's filled with rollercoaster rides and things.
[03:22.940 --> 03:24.460]  No, no, I wish I had actually.
[03:24.540 --> 03:27.200]  Although it's getting kind of deadly To go to these places from what I hear.
[03:27.660 --> 03:32.980]  I always hear about people dying on rollercoasters now Which isn't something that I heard about before.
[03:33.280 --> 03:34.620]  But it's the last day of August.
[03:34.740 --> 03:36.180]  Summer is almost over.
[03:36.740 --> 03:41.220]  And we have colder weather to look forward to Which I think will be a nice change.
[03:41.740 --> 03:41.920]  Yeah.
[03:44.580 --> 03:45.920]  It's been rather weird.
[03:46.100 --> 03:51.700]  First of all, before we get started I just want to alert the people out there And ask for their help.
[03:51.700 --> 03:54.360]  The parking meters downstairs are all messed up again.
[03:54.560 --> 03:55.440]  The electronic ones.
[03:55.830 --> 03:57.100]  I was able to put...
[03:57.100 --> 03:58.800]  It usually parked down there for two hours.
[03:59.220 --> 03:59.560]  Right.
[03:59.920 --> 04:04.000]  Well, I could only park for an hour and ten minutes Before it started just not giving me time for the quarters.
[04:04.460 --> 04:09.260]  Now, again, I should point out This is something that never happened With the old-fashioned parking meters.
[04:09.320 --> 04:11.600]  That little arrow would always move up When you put a quarter in.
[04:11.740 --> 04:14.720]  Yeah, but it always flashed a violation Every time you turned the point.
[04:14.720 --> 04:16.120]  Yeah, just for a second while you turned it.
[04:16.200 --> 04:17.900]  But after that, it flipped back.
[04:18.000 --> 04:18.760]  That scares people.
[04:18.760 --> 04:33.830]  Well, the thing is It scares people even more When you put a quarter in The little digital display doesn't move And that's what happened That's what happened countless times But the thing is I couldn't move my car this time Because I already had an hour and ten minutes there So what I'm asking the people right now Is if you could,
[04:34.020 --> 04:37.770]  please, serve as witnesses Because right now, it's eight o'clock All right?
[04:37.960 --> 04:51.200]  I got here about 25 minutes ago So that means that my time is going to run out At ten to nine Which technically means That I could get a ticket When I have ten minutes left on the air And there's no point going down there to do this Because A, we're on the air And B,
[04:51.270 --> 05:00.940]  it's probably not going to work anyway So what I'm asking is I'm saying right now That I put enough money in But I didn't get what I asked for You are recording this show, right?
[05:01.120 --> 05:16.980]  I'm recording this show The show is being beamed out Across satellites and other planets And things like that So I'm hoping That if worse comes to worse And I do get a ticket That at least people will write letters in Saying, excuse me He did say That the thing was completely messed up And that's,
[05:17.020 --> 05:23.500]  you know It's my sworn statement And things like that We'll see if it holds water Yeah, you'll be a witness too Because you're here in person Oh, I can?
[05:23.620 --> 05:44.480]  Absolutely Okay But you will I will Yeah, it's not a question of can or cannot You are required You are summoned I don't know The digital age really bothers me sometimes Because we never had that problem before You know, it was a mechanical thing You put the quarter in The little arrow went up Now it's like logic is involved And whenever you inject logic into the equation All of a sudden It
[05:44.480 --> 06:00.540]  becomes illogical So that's what happened in that particular case Sorry to dwell on that But if my car gets towed away It's, you know It affects everybody somehow Filtered down A trickle down effect In some way Anything interesting happened to you this week?
[06:01.260 --> 06:08.600]  No, not particularly I spent some time out of the city And just kind of communing with nature Oh yeah?
[06:08.660 --> 06:26.340]  Yeah Nature is a good thing to commune with I suppose Far better than communing with humanity I'll say that Oh, I will definitely agree with you there We have a disturbing update In the Kevin Mitnick case Probably heard about this Kevin was involved in a car accident I thought he was in jail Well,
[06:26.360 --> 06:40.780]  hell yeah It seems like you have opportunity To get involved in all kinds of things When you're in jail Basically, here's what happened As you may know Kevin was transferred He was transferred to San Bernardino A rather barbaric place A...
[06:40.780 --> 06:43.780]  I guess it's a county prison And...
[06:43.780 --> 07:05.300]  Which is odd Because he's a federal prisoner Yeah, you see That's the thing They allow people to get To get transferred And I'm not sure exactly What the reason is I guess it's overcrowding It's probably the reason So, Kevin was put into A county prison Where he was not allowed Kosher food Which is what he's been eating For the last few years So,
[07:05.300 --> 07:20.180]  it's weird Because they just deny him In the right The judge without any comment Says, sorry We will not transfer you To a place that serves kosher food That's just it Even though It's been proven That prisoners have that right Was this the same judge?
[07:20.280 --> 07:31.900]  Same judge The judge that has it in for him Since the day he was born I think this person Has been after him Anyway Without warning What day was that?
[07:32.000 --> 07:35.460]  On Wednesday Just about a week ago Without warning 2 a.m.
[07:36.060 --> 08:00.320]  They woke him up again And ushered him into Into a van I guess not unlike The paddy wagon That I rode in Early this year At the police brutality Demonstration And let me tell you If you're riding in those things Your fate is in the hands Of whatever god it is You pray to Because there's nothing Nothing holding you in Every pothole you bounce And you hit your head On the ceiling That's just the way
[08:00.320 --> 08:08.980]  it is I don't know what kind of A van he was in But one thing is for sure He was not strapped in None of the prisoners Were strapped in Because I guess they're just not human beings.
[08:09.000 --> 08:09.920]  We don't treat them that way.
[08:10.600 --> 08:14.320]  So what happened was they were driving to Los Angeles, apparently.
[08:15.080 --> 08:16.880]  And they were on Highway 60.
[08:18.180 --> 08:23.400]  And the person driving the van rear-ended a vehicle in front of them.
[08:23.520 --> 08:24.200]  That's always good.
[08:24.440 --> 08:25.420]  Considerably high speed.
[08:26.360 --> 08:28.500]  And the thing... I spoke to Kevin about this yesterday.
[08:28.580 --> 08:30.840]  The thing that hurt...
[08:30.840 --> 08:33.360]  It was kind of dozing off at the time when the first impact happened.
[08:33.420 --> 08:36.080]  But the thing that really hurt was when the car in the back of them slammed into them.
[08:36.600 --> 08:38.380]  Yeah, and that's when he hit his head.
[08:38.790 --> 08:44.100]  And became definitely injured to a degree.
[08:44.240 --> 08:45.980]  The thing is, we don't know exactly what's wrong.
[08:46.470 --> 08:47.600]  Because they have not.
[08:47.740 --> 08:49.050]  As we've learned with Bernie S.
[08:49.160 --> 08:50.170]  We've learned with countless other cases.
[08:50.360 --> 08:51.550]  He has not been getting adequate treatment.
[08:51.640 --> 08:53.930]  In fact, this accident occurred at 9 a.m.
[08:53.930 --> 08:55.050]  Do you know what time they went to the hospital?
[08:55.400 --> 08:55.600]  No.
[08:55.740 --> 08:56.500]  3 p.m.
[08:56.600 --> 08:57.520]  Six hours.
[08:58.020 --> 08:59.340]  So what, he's just sitting in the...
[08:59.340 --> 09:01.020]  God knows what they were doing for six hours.
[09:01.140 --> 09:03.430]  But 3 p.m., they were taken to a hospital.
[09:03.430 --> 09:07.760]  I guess they had to finish driving to the hospital nearest the MDC in Los Angeles.
[09:09.090 --> 09:11.000]  So they went there at 3 p.m.
[09:11.360 --> 09:15.220]  And that's when Kevin first got his pain relievers.
[09:16.120 --> 09:19.810]  And let me tell you, I don't know if very many of you have been through pain.
[09:20.040 --> 09:21.460]  You know, what real pain is like.
[09:21.780 --> 09:25.690]  Not just a little headache, but injury pain or some kind of other thing.
[09:26.400 --> 09:27.050]  It's hell.
[09:27.310 --> 09:28.160]  It really is hell.
[09:28.380 --> 09:39.720]  And on top of that, if you're in a position where you don't have any freedom at all, where people know you're in pain, but they just don't give a crap about you, it's living hell.
[09:39.880 --> 09:41.160]  It is totally living hell.
[09:41.190 --> 09:42.880]  And I'm not sure how bad his pain was.
[09:43.220 --> 09:45.190]  He told me it was pretty bad.
[09:46.360 --> 09:51.120]  But he did not get even a Tylenol until 3 p.m., six hours after the accident.
[09:51.600 --> 09:59.260]  Then they were thrown into the, I believe it was the basement in the courthouse in Los Angeles.
[09:59.420 --> 10:03.020]  And then, without any explanation, he was brought back to San Bernardino.
[10:03.220 --> 10:04.620]  They basically brought him in there.
[10:04.790 --> 10:11.300]  Now, the ruling had come down a couple of days earlier that he wasn't able to be transferred, that they were denying that request.
[10:11.800 --> 10:18.820]  So, it doesn't make sense to me that they deny the request, then drive him to the place, and then say, oh, the request was denied.
[10:18.980 --> 10:19.880]  Well, we're going to drive you back.
[10:20.800 --> 10:23.140]  I mean, how much sense does that make?
[10:24.140 --> 10:27.620]  It just basically took him out to get into a car crash and come back.
[10:27.760 --> 10:29.500]  That's really the only thing that was served.
[10:29.820 --> 10:34.740]  He's back in San Bernardino now, still being refused kosher food, and not getting medical treatment.
[10:35.120 --> 10:36.520]  He has neck pain.
[10:37.600 --> 10:44.820]  What I think is a lot of signs of whiplash, which can sometimes take a few days to manifest itself, but you do need to have treatment.
[10:44.980 --> 10:49.140]  You do need to have, you know, follow-up x-rays and all kinds of things like that.
[10:49.240 --> 10:52.260]  And unfortunately, he is not getting that.
[10:52.500 --> 10:57.080]  And this is something a lot of people don't seem to remember with regards to prison.
[10:57.720 --> 11:00.480]  In prison, your life is always being threatened.
[11:00.720 --> 11:07.580]  Not necessarily by physical altercation, so that certainly is high up on the list, but inadequate health care.
[11:08.800 --> 11:14.040]  Basically, having something happen to you and having you not be treated at all.
[11:16.710 --> 11:19.040]  And just neglect of all sorts.
[11:21.200 --> 11:23.300]  You can get into all kinds of accidents.
[11:23.480 --> 11:27.340]  You can have all kinds of terrible things happen to you, and the people just don't care.
[11:27.340 --> 11:28.120]  Because you're a prisoner.
[11:28.340 --> 11:29.340]  You're the scum of the earth.
[11:29.900 --> 11:35.500]  And right now, there's about 2 million people who are defined as the scum of the earth in our nation's prison.
[11:35.620 --> 11:40.220]  And the number just keeps going up because, well, prison is a booming industry in this nation.
[11:40.800 --> 11:43.040]  Building prisons upstate like you wouldn't believe.
[11:44.980 --> 11:46.800]  One of us has got to go to prison.
[11:46.960 --> 11:47.440]  You know that.
[11:47.800 --> 11:48.600]  The odds are...
[11:48.600 --> 11:49.220]  Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
[11:49.700 --> 11:50.440]  Back up there.
[11:50.520 --> 11:53.720]  I'm just saying, as far as the odds go, it sure looks like it.
[11:54.060 --> 11:54.160]  Yeah.
[11:55.720 --> 11:56.280]  Thank you.
[11:56.580 --> 11:58.440]  You've just really scared me there for a second.
[11:58.440 --> 11:59.340]  You should write to...
[11:59.340 --> 12:00.280]  One of us is going to go to prison.
[12:00.600 --> 12:04.220]  The National Publishing, Pueblo, Colorado, they still have that place out there where they send you the free books.
[12:04.220 --> 12:05.360]  They send you all the free stuff.
[12:05.400 --> 12:05.820]  There's one book.
[12:05.900 --> 12:12.380]  So you're going to prison, and they tell you all the things that you need to know, what you need to pack, what you need not to pack, you know, what kind of...
[12:12.380 --> 12:13.000]  Oh, okay.
[12:13.580 --> 12:15.340]  ...injuries you can expect to sustain.
[12:15.640 --> 12:16.100]  Thank you.
[12:16.200 --> 12:17.460]  Depending on the amount of time you spend there.
[12:18.470 --> 12:19.540]  It's not pleasant.
[12:19.800 --> 12:20.320]  No way.
[12:20.480 --> 12:22.720]  And it's not something I previously considered until now.
[12:23.960 --> 12:25.600]  I'm glad I was able to help you get prepared.
[12:25.740 --> 12:25.980]  Thanks.
[12:27.180 --> 12:27.500]  Okay.
[12:27.500 --> 12:28.920]  So that's what's happening.
[12:29.940 --> 12:34.260]  Oh, there was a resolution of sorts with my passport nightmare.
[12:34.580 --> 12:34.860]  Really?
[12:35.080 --> 12:35.240]  Yeah.
[12:35.580 --> 12:36.220]  Here's what happened.
[12:36.300 --> 12:42.160]  I wrote to lots of different people, and one of them actually wrote back...
[12:42.160 --> 12:47.140]  Actually, the State Department wrote back, and they sent me my entire thing back, every single page.
[12:47.260 --> 12:49.800]  It was about 10, 15 pages of documents and things like that.
[12:49.860 --> 12:55.200]  They sent the whole thing back in a big envelope with a letter saying, thank you for reporting your passport lost or stolen.
[12:55.580 --> 12:56.620]  Here's how to get a new one.
[12:57.700 --> 13:08.140]  They didn't pay attention to what I said because the whole problem was I was trying to get a renewal, and they botched it up and took two months to do something that should have taken less than a week because I paid to expedite it.
[13:08.140 --> 13:15.300]  So I also sent letters to all my congressmen, and there was one whose name I keep forgetting.
[13:15.680 --> 13:17.740]  If you want to say Steve Forbes, I think it's Michael Forbes.
[13:18.460 --> 13:19.460]  I hope it's Michael Forbes.
[13:19.520 --> 13:21.040]  Anyway, I sent him a letter.
[13:21.420 --> 13:27.180]  I got a letter back from his office saying something to the effect of, thank you for writing to me, Congressman Forbes.
[13:27.300 --> 13:30.580]  As you know, I've recently switched from Republican to Democrat.
[13:30.580 --> 13:41.060]  This was a painful decision for me, and I've done a lot of soul-searching, and basically two paragraphs about his problems, which is fine and dandy, except I was the one that had the problem here, and I was kind of like perturbed.
[13:41.220 --> 13:45.060]  But the funny thing is, a week later I got another letter from him which was a lot more personal.
[13:45.890 --> 13:52.580]  And what also is, I think, really incredible, I'd written to Congressman Charles Rangel, too, who was not my congressman.
[13:52.660 --> 13:53.400]  He's from Brooklyn.
[13:53.680 --> 14:00.660]  But I just had written to him because I admire him, and I've heard him on the radio a lot of times, and I just wanted to say, I like the work you're doing.
[14:00.760 --> 14:03.020]  If you can't help me, fine, but I just figured you should know about this.
[14:03.280 --> 14:09.260]  Well, on the letter from Michael Forbes, there was a handwritten note saying, Charles Rangel's happy that you support him, or whatever.
[14:09.580 --> 14:10.080]  Oh, cool.
[14:10.240 --> 14:11.160]  They talked to each other.
[14:11.340 --> 14:13.580]  Maybe they didn't talk to each other before because he wasn't a Democrat.
[14:13.760 --> 14:14.560]  Now he's a Democrat.
[14:14.560 --> 14:15.020]  Now he's a Democrat.
[14:15.320 --> 14:15.960]  I don't know.
[14:16.180 --> 14:16.820]  I could see that.
[14:17.160 --> 14:20.360]  But then I started getting calls from his office in D.C.
[14:20.580 --> 14:20.840]  Who's?
[14:20.900 --> 14:21.820]  They wanted to...
[14:21.820 --> 14:22.400]  Forbes or Ron?
[14:22.400 --> 14:22.580]  Forbes.
[14:22.820 --> 14:22.960]  Okay.
[14:23.300 --> 14:29.440]  They wanted to figure out what was going on with the passport people, and they eventually reached a human being over there.
[14:29.720 --> 14:30.060]  Gasp.
[14:30.200 --> 14:30.380]  Yeah.
[14:30.380 --> 14:35.860]  And basically, keep in mind, I've already gotten my passport, so it's kind of a moot point at this juncture.
[14:35.880 --> 14:37.580]  All I want to do is find out why.
[14:37.840 --> 14:39.240]  Why this happened in the first place.
[14:39.240 --> 14:44.420]  Why it took two months to get a passport when I'd already paid for it to be done very quickly.
[14:45.380 --> 14:50.680]  They said I should write a letter to this guy at the passport agency, and I should be able to get a $35 refund.
[14:51.080 --> 14:51.420]  Yeah.
[14:51.780 --> 14:55.500]  That is what my ruined summer amounts to, a $35 refund.
[14:55.740 --> 14:56.040]  All right.
[14:56.360 --> 14:58.640]  Well, you go out and you get yourself a...
[14:59.560 --> 15:01.360]  I don't know, like a golf club or something.
[15:01.800 --> 15:03.940]  If I get a golf club, I might be tempted to use it.
[15:04.260 --> 15:05.520]  So I don't think I'm going to do that.
[15:05.640 --> 15:11.460]  But I think what I'd like more than $35 is an explanation because that's something nobody has given me yet.
[15:11.560 --> 15:11.900]  Why?
[15:12.060 --> 15:12.720]  That's all I want to know.
[15:12.840 --> 15:13.140]  Why?
[15:13.480 --> 15:15.760]  And what are you going to do to prevent it in the future?
[15:16.020 --> 15:20.780]  You know, maybe a way that you can talk to people at the passport agency without having to pay a dollar a minute.
[15:20.780 --> 15:22.060]  That would be a nice start.
[15:22.260 --> 15:22.640]  That would be a nice start, yeah.
[15:23.920 --> 15:25.600]  So that's where that stands.
[15:26.040 --> 15:26.800]  Got my passport.
[15:26.900 --> 15:27.640]  Got no place to go.
[15:28.700 --> 15:30.000]  But you can go places now.
[15:30.280 --> 15:32.640]  I can go places now except I don't want to go any place now.
[15:32.680 --> 15:33.600]  It's August 31st.
[15:33.680 --> 15:34.280]  It's the end of the summer.
[15:34.380 --> 15:34.880]  Summer's over.
[15:34.980 --> 15:35.160]  Goodbye.
[15:35.680 --> 15:35.820]  Okay.
[15:35.980 --> 15:37.680]  Next summer's going to be in the year 2000.
[15:37.980 --> 15:38.520]  Well, no.
[15:38.640 --> 15:41.480]  The next summer's going to be in the southern hemisphere in another few months.
[15:42.140 --> 15:43.580]  Have you considered visiting Australia?
[15:45.060 --> 15:45.820]  It's a nice place.
[15:46.040 --> 15:48.080]  Yeah, I've considered escaping to Australia, actually.
[15:48.220 --> 15:48.500]  Oh, okay.
[15:49.260 --> 15:51.480]  So that's when one of us is going to get arrested, huh?
[15:52.000 --> 15:53.980]  Well, one of us turns state's evidence against the other, yeah.
[15:54.180 --> 15:54.540]  Okay, thanks.
[15:54.540 --> 15:55.540]  That's when it usually works.
[15:56.880 --> 16:00.900]  H2K, Hope 2000, has been announced officially last Friday.
[16:01.100 --> 16:01.720]  It went up on the net.
[16:02.480 --> 16:05.740]  We're having it at the same exact place we had it in 1994.
[16:06.640 --> 16:08.040]  That's the Hotel Pennsylvania.
[16:08.360 --> 16:08.560]  Ooh.
[16:08.800 --> 16:12.900]  Yeah, and if you line the two words up, Hotel and Pennsylvania, it spells out hope.
[16:13.040 --> 16:14.020]  The first two letters of each.
[16:14.060 --> 16:14.940]  I think it's really kind of cool.
[16:15.740 --> 16:16.880]  Hope, Hotel Pennsylvania.
[16:16.940 --> 16:17.660]  H-O-P-E.
[16:17.860 --> 16:18.300]  I like it.
[16:18.380 --> 16:21.700]  Yeah, and so that means right there that it's perfect for what we're going to do.
[16:21.840 --> 16:26.120]  Hotel Pennsylvania is located right across the street from Penn Station, so that's convenient.
[16:27.340 --> 16:30.840]  And best of all, we're going to have twice the space we had last time.
[16:30.980 --> 16:38.880]  Not just going to have the upstairs, we're going to have another floor of, I think, about eight other rooms that can hold, I think, up to 80 people each.
[16:39.180 --> 16:44.380]  But the ballrooms upstairs can hold a whole lot, like, you know, many hundreds, if not more.
[16:44.680 --> 16:45.200]  I like it.
[16:45.200 --> 16:51.940]  Yeah, so we're already planning various things network-wise, security-wise, speaker-wise, you know, all sorts of things.
[16:52.040 --> 16:55.120]  So if you have any suggestions, send them in.
[16:55.320 --> 17:04.860]  Actually, our email isn't quite working properly on the H2K site yet, so just send it to the radio station, the radio show address, which is OTH at 2600.com.
[17:05.200 --> 17:07.010]  Hopefully by next week we'll have the rest of it working.
[17:07.230 --> 17:14.340]  So if you have any ideas that you want to pursue for H2K, hope 2000, by all means.
[17:14.730 --> 17:16.640]  It's July 14th through July 16th.
[17:16.730 --> 17:19.030]  Those are the dates of next summer.
[17:19.580 --> 17:23.470]  And again, it's happening at the Hotel Pennsylvania right here in Manhattan.
[17:23.960 --> 17:24.770]  It should be a lot of fun.
[17:25.060 --> 17:25.460]  It will be.
[17:25.640 --> 17:25.770]  Yeah.
[17:26.140 --> 17:31.800]  It's funny because it's very rare in the hacker world for a conference to go back to the same hotel.
[17:33.360 --> 17:35.990]  And in fact, you might say, oh, well, they probably don't know who you are.
[17:36.060 --> 17:36.800]  No, they do know who you are.
[17:36.840 --> 17:37.900]  They remember us from the last time.
[17:37.940 --> 17:42.440]  In fact, they even said one of you hacked into our phone system, which is pretty funny.
[17:43.300 --> 17:45.620]  But apparently no damage was done, which is good.
[17:46.360 --> 17:47.840]  But we were well-behaved.
[17:48.100 --> 17:49.470]  It was a well-behaved conference.
[17:49.840 --> 17:49.970]  Okay.
[17:50.060 --> 17:51.880]  Well, I hope it will be the same this time.
[17:51.960 --> 17:52.060]  Yeah.
[17:52.210 --> 17:52.750]  And it's...
[17:52.750 --> 17:59.300]  I think that is the true hacker spirit is curiosity, figuring things out, but not being stupid and malicious.
[18:00.340 --> 18:04.700]  Now, there might be stupid and malicious people, but, you know, the hackers will deal with that.
[18:05.490 --> 18:06.620]  We'll take care of our own.
[18:07.560 --> 18:11.770]  So, again, LTH at 2600.com if you have any suggestions.
[18:11.770 --> 18:21.600]  If you want to subscribe to the mailing list and talk with a bunch of other people who are also interested in the conference, send mail to Major Domo, M-A-J-O-R-D-O-M-O at 2600.com.
[18:21.680 --> 18:25.420]  In the first line, say, subscribe, H2K.
[18:26.560 --> 18:27.620]  And that should...
[18:27.620 --> 18:29.300]  And don't tell him anything else, because you'll piss him off.
[18:29.840 --> 18:30.700]  He's ex-military.
[18:30.820 --> 18:33.200]  He takes care of these things, but you've got to be clear and concise.
[18:33.990 --> 18:34.970]  Oh, Major Domo?
[18:35.160 --> 18:35.340]  Yes.
[18:35.340 --> 18:36.600]  Yeah, okay, sure.
[18:38.660 --> 18:39.660]  Major Phil Domo.
[18:39.860 --> 18:39.960]  Yeah.
[18:40.140 --> 18:42.680]  Don't type major as if it's two words.
[18:42.860 --> 18:44.580]  It's one word, or a lowercase.
[18:44.970 --> 18:46.940]  Let's not confuse the people too much.
[18:47.380 --> 18:48.460]  Oh, but it's so fun.
[18:49.100 --> 18:49.620]  Ah, yes.
[18:51.560 --> 18:52.260]  Let's see.
[18:53.400 --> 18:58.240]  Well, Godlovesfags.com is back in the hands of the people that own it.
[18:58.280 --> 19:00.180]  Did you hear about this whole big controversy here?
[19:00.180 --> 19:00.520]  No, I didn't.
[19:00.640 --> 19:08.970]  Well, apparently what happened was there's this site run by this guy Phelps out of Kansas, I believe.
[19:09.940 --> 19:11.860]  He's basically the guy that...
[19:12.940 --> 19:16.900]  He's ultra, ultra, I mean, more right-wing than you could ever imagine.
[19:17.240 --> 19:25.260]  He shows up at funerals of gay people who have been murdered and taunts the crowd saying, God wants it this way and things like that.
[19:26.280 --> 19:31.340]  They have a site called Godlovesfags.com and apparently what happened was they let the site expire.
[19:31.560 --> 19:32.380]  They didn't pay for it.
[19:33.540 --> 19:34.520]  Did I say Godlovesfags?
[19:34.560 --> 19:36.140]  I meant to say Godhatesfags.com.
[19:36.210 --> 19:37.680]  Okay, there's a little bit of a difference there.
[19:37.680 --> 19:39.920]  So I'm holding up the page that says Godlovesfags.com.
[19:40.300 --> 19:42.000]  Godhatesfags.com is the site they run.
[19:42.080 --> 19:49.200]  There's another site called Godlovesfags.com and what happened was Godhatesfags.com expired.
[19:49.710 --> 19:52.940]  So they didn't pay Network Solutions and they lost their domain?
[19:53.100 --> 20:03.940]  And apparently somebody else renewed it but simply transferred it over to Godlovesfags.com So all of a sudden all these people wanting to get anti-gay messages were getting pro-gay messages.
[20:04.360 --> 20:15.880]  So anyway, what happened was basically after much deliberation Chris Haight who is owner of the Godlovesfags.com domain Oh, now this is really confusing.
[20:15.880 --> 20:21.400]  has returned I know, has returned the domain Godhatesfags.com to the Phelps family.
[20:22.080 --> 20:30.680]  Haight, who was given control of Godhatesfags through an anonymous source a couple of Wednesday evenings ago details the events that led up to the return of the domain.
[20:31.160 --> 20:36.520]  We noticed that the Phelps family's comments to the press were getting more and more agitated.
[20:36.680 --> 20:38.940]  They didn't have the laid-back attitude when all this began.
[20:39.360 --> 20:40.820]  We knew something was up.
[20:42.760 --> 20:49.780]  We've maintained constant communication throughout the last few days between us the people on the Godlovesfags.com site.
[20:50.120 --> 20:58.960]  Ultimately what happened with the site has always been up to Chris Haight but we all made it clear we support him 100%.
[20:58.960 --> 21:00.400]  These are people within that organization.
[21:01.200 --> 21:24.080]  On Friday afternoon about 4.30pm this was I think one Friday ago Haight received a call from the uplink provider for the internet service provider that hosts www.godlovesfags.com they basically told me that they had been contacted by someone from Westboro Baptist Church who told them to either sever our uplink or convince me to give back the domain or they would get sued.
[21:25.260 --> 21:29.780]  And basically so what it wound up being was they just handed back the domain.
[21:30.040 --> 21:31.200]  They just gave it back to them.
[21:31.620 --> 21:33.540]  I don't know if they paid for it.
[21:34.840 --> 21:41.300]  But Haight initiated the transfer around 6pm Eastern time on Friday then called Westboro Baptist Church again.
[21:41.680 --> 21:47.060]  The man who had identified himself earlier as Westboro Baptist Church's attorney answered the phone.
[21:47.260 --> 21:53.040]  I just told him to check their worldnet.att email and then I hung up.
[21:53.300 --> 22:00.100]  Phelps was apparently close at hand because seconds later Haight received a confirmation email from the internet that Phelps had accepted the domain transfer.
[22:01.580 --> 22:03.600]  And that was the end of that.
[22:04.600 --> 22:05.100]  No thank you.
[22:05.220 --> 22:05.500]  No nothing.
[22:06.040 --> 22:09.620]  Basically just took it back so that little skirmish is over.
[22:09.720 --> 22:11.360]  But you can still look at both sites now.
[22:12.340 --> 22:12.520]  Really?
[22:12.720 --> 22:12.860]  Yeah.
[22:13.160 --> 22:15.620]  So we had that listed as a hacked site because in a way it was a hack.
[22:15.760 --> 22:21.580]  It wasn't really they didn't get into the computer and hack the hate site and put the love site in there.
[22:21.660 --> 22:26.700]  They basically just got control of the DNS records and simply transferred them.
[22:26.960 --> 22:32.520]  So I'm not entirely sure how they got control of that if somebody just spoofed internet which isn't the hardest thing in the world to do.
[22:33.120 --> 22:33.660]  No comment.
[22:34.140 --> 22:42.120]  Well it's not especially if you have a mail from confirmation all you have to do is come from that particular mail address and it's not hard to come from any mail address as you well know.
[22:42.400 --> 22:43.620]  But I'm still going to go with no comment.
[22:43.740 --> 22:44.200]  Alright fine.
[22:45.000 --> 22:45.740]  How about Hotmail?
[22:46.400 --> 22:46.800]  Hotmail?
[22:46.880 --> 22:48.140]  Hotmail had a security goal.
[22:48.280 --> 22:50.000]  Yeah I showed this just a couple minutes ago.
[22:50.860 --> 22:56.800]  Unfortunately I don't have specific details so maybe somebody can write to us and tell us the specific details.
[22:56.800 --> 22:58.380]  Of course they're probably not any good anymore.
[22:59.240 --> 23:08.200]  Millions of free internet email accounts provided by Microsoft's Hotmail service were vulnerable to a major security breach that allowed access Monday to users' accounts.
[23:08.440 --> 23:13.360]  The breach worked via several web addresses which prompted for a Hotmail username.
[23:13.680 --> 23:20.580]  Once the username was entered, no password required, the Hotmail account appeared and the mailbox was available.
[23:20.800 --> 23:21.680]  What do you think about that?
[23:21.820 --> 23:27.080]  Sounds like somebody managed to find an old script that Microsoft used to maintain the service and forgot about.
[23:27.540 --> 23:30.280]  Except that Microsoft hasn't had control of the Hotmail all that long.
[23:30.560 --> 23:32.280]  Alright, well the Hotmail people got sloppy.
[23:32.840 --> 23:34.000]  They must have left something.
[23:34.280 --> 23:34.720]  I don't know.
[23:35.040 --> 23:36.000]  That's kind of weird.
[23:36.020 --> 23:36.800]  You just showed it to me a little while.
[23:36.800 --> 23:37.420]  It's pretty weird.
[23:37.520 --> 23:39.200]  It's pretty scary that such a script even exists.
[23:39.440 --> 23:43.500]  I mean, I think people thought that, hey, our email can't be accessed that easily.
[23:44.020 --> 23:45.480]  But apparently it can be.
[23:45.560 --> 23:48.700]  However, access failed later in the day, so maybe they fixed it.
[23:49.040 --> 23:54.680]  The breach, reportedly the result of a bug, allowed CNN Interactive to open all accounts it tested.
[23:55.180 --> 23:56.520]  But that's breaking the law.
[23:56.600 --> 23:57.220]  Hey, wait a second.
[23:57.340 --> 23:59.480]  I was just about to say, CNN is doing this?
[23:59.560 --> 24:00.600]  They can't get away with that.
[24:00.780 --> 24:01.200]  I don't know.
[24:01.400 --> 24:02.860]  They're admitting to it in published.
[24:02.860 --> 24:03.840]  Right here, black and white.
[24:04.040 --> 24:04.160]  Yeah.
[24:04.400 --> 24:05.500]  Whose accounts did they break into?
[24:05.680 --> 24:06.080]  Oh, man.
[24:06.280 --> 24:07.200]  Did they only break into their own?
[24:07.280 --> 24:10.260]  If they only broke into their own accounts, maybe that was the reason.
[24:10.340 --> 24:11.740]  Maybe the IP has to be similar.
[24:11.900 --> 24:15.020]  Maybe they created these accounts within that day.
[24:15.200 --> 24:15.540]  I don't know.
[24:15.760 --> 24:25.360]  Did they really test it on, you know, they should pick some obvious names, like John Smith at Hotmail.com, whoever that is, and if that works, then all of a sudden you realize.
[24:25.540 --> 24:28.680]  Come on, you know they're looking at their producer's email and the competition.
[24:29.360 --> 24:31.920]  They say email messages couldn't always be opened.
[24:32.160 --> 24:37.120]  The bug first was reported in the Swedish newspaper Expressen's Monday editions.
[24:37.380 --> 24:46.160]  The breach allowed users to read and forward a member's old messages, read new messages, and send email, in some cases under the name of the user, assuming the member's identity.
[24:46.960 --> 24:49.060]  Hotmail boasts 40 million subscribers.
[24:49.260 --> 24:52.260]  The site was down for a short time, but returned early Monday afternoon.
[24:52.720 --> 25:00.460]  Shortly after CNN Interactive posted the story, one of the sites, based in Stockholm, Sweden, was changed to a simple message, Microsoft rules.
[25:00.460 --> 25:06.240]  And shortly after that, the URL redirected the user to a site for a new web company.
[25:06.440 --> 25:10.660]  Later, it redirected users to a Microsoft security screen or returned an error message.
[25:11.000 --> 25:19.600]  Other sites, situated all over the world, but all using the same Hotmail gateway program, first provided access without a password, but later returned forbidden messages.
[25:20.180 --> 25:30.840]  A morning telephone call made to the public relations firm that handles Microsoft's publicity was referred to Microsoft's main number in Redmond, Washington.
[25:31.080 --> 25:34.860]  That call was forwarded by an operator to Microsoft's corporate security desk.
[25:35.280 --> 25:39.520]  You should send that to abuse at Hotmail.com, said Greg Boettcher.
[25:42.640 --> 25:43.760]  I like that.
[25:43.920 --> 25:44.100]  Okay.
[25:44.720 --> 25:46.180]  What do you like, abuse or Greg Boettcher?
[25:46.360 --> 25:48.060]  Well, no, his response.
[25:48.240 --> 25:49.720]  Just send it to the abuse account.
[25:49.940 --> 25:50.880]  We'll take care of it.
[25:51.620 --> 25:51.800]  Yeah.
[25:52.240 --> 26:01.880]  Eric Barkell of Stockholm, Sweden, was listed in the domain name directory, internic, as the administrator for the Swedish website's domain, but a call to his number did not go through.
[26:02.160 --> 26:02.380]  Hmm.
[26:02.540 --> 26:03.600]  Maybe they didn't dial enough digits.
[26:04.080 --> 26:05.460]  What does that mean did not go through?
[26:06.500 --> 26:12.580]  Either they got a busy signal, they got an answering machine, they got no answer, the guy told them not to ever call him again.
[26:12.940 --> 26:14.300]  What is this did not go through?
[26:14.540 --> 26:16.540]  Sweden's off the net, you can't call Sweden?
[26:17.860 --> 26:18.440]  I know.
[26:18.540 --> 26:20.340]  I mean, I don't think they know how to make the call.
[26:20.520 --> 26:23.400]  They didn't dial enough digits, or they just don't have the number right.
[26:23.440 --> 26:25.160]  Well, they're hacking other people's Hotmail accounts.
[26:25.340 --> 26:33.340]  They're too busy breaking into accounts to know Microsoft spokesman Adam Sahn said he was unaware of the reported bug.
[26:33.800 --> 26:35.640]  I have no idea, he said.
[26:35.820 --> 26:36.360]  Oh, of course not.
[26:37.120 --> 26:38.520]  That's where that takes us.
[26:38.540 --> 26:46.180]  Speaking of phones and frustration, you know, you ever see these people on the street that just are basically yelling and screaming at nobody in particular?
[26:46.560 --> 26:47.000]  Yes.
[26:47.120 --> 26:50.680]  I became one of those people, except the subject of my rage was a phone.
[26:50.920 --> 26:56.840]  One of these AT&T phones that you see in the big, huge metal kiosk things that they're building everywhere.
[26:57.520 --> 26:57.860]  Right.
[26:57.980 --> 26:59.820]  The ones that are as big as like a one-bedroom apartment.
[27:00.220 --> 27:01.320]  Oh, the telephone booths.
[27:01.320 --> 27:01.740]  Yeah, yes.
[27:01.740 --> 27:01.920]  Okay.
[27:02.180 --> 27:05.600]  So, I got beeped by somebody in some crazy area code.
[27:05.780 --> 27:07.540]  You know how the area codes don't make any sense anymore.
[27:07.680 --> 27:08.540]  All different numbers.
[27:08.700 --> 27:08.760]  Yeah.
[27:09.080 --> 27:11.980]  I just wanted to find out where the area code was.
[27:12.360 --> 27:13.040]  Simple question.
[27:13.240 --> 27:14.240]  Where is this area code?
[27:14.960 --> 27:16.640]  So, I pick up the phone and dial zero.
[27:16.840 --> 27:19.000]  It goes straight to AT&T because it's an AT&T phone.
[27:19.080 --> 27:20.420]  I said, yeah, operator, can you help me?
[27:20.440 --> 27:23.380]  I just need to know where this particular area code is.
[27:23.560 --> 27:24.740]  He says, yes, I certainly...
[27:24.740 --> 27:26.720]  The next words, I will bet, will be please deposit.
[27:26.720 --> 27:28.180]  No, she didn't say that.
[27:28.260 --> 27:31.000]  She said, I can help you with that, but I need your calling card number.
[27:31.200 --> 27:33.260]  Why do you need my calling card number for that for?
[27:33.340 --> 27:36.420]  Well, I have to connect you to AT&T's new...
[27:36.840 --> 27:37.980]  What do they call that thing?
[27:38.160 --> 27:40.960]  The 99-cent information service?
[27:41.540 --> 27:42.440]  The 00...
[27:42.440 --> 27:44.160]  Yeah, 00 information or whatever.
[27:44.540 --> 27:52.640]  They actually have the gall to say that they're not going to tell me where this area code was unless I gave them money to find this out.
[27:52.640 --> 28:01.180]  I mean, what kind of crazy society are we living in here where they charge you money for something that takes them a second to tell you, and it's part of their own network anyway?
[28:01.500 --> 28:02.680]  Does it make any sense?
[28:03.820 --> 28:04.740]  Don't look at me, man.
[28:05.380 --> 28:07.080]  But it doesn't qualify as...
[28:07.080 --> 28:19.720]  Information used to be free everywhere, first of all, but it makes no sense that something like this, an area code change that is basically something you have to deal with, they won't tell you where the new area codes are unless you pay them.
[28:20.280 --> 28:24.700]  You know, they charge you for virtually everything you do on the phone now, and a lot of things you don't do.
[28:26.000 --> 28:28.700]  So I just basically, you know...
[28:28.700 --> 28:29.840]  You turn into one of those crazy people.
[28:29.840 --> 28:30.080]  What can you do?
[28:30.260 --> 28:30.760]  What else can you do?
[28:30.840 --> 28:34.720]  You basically lose control and start screaming and yelling at the stupid phone.
[28:34.980 --> 28:36.160]  Then I called another operator.
[28:36.280 --> 28:37.280]  You didn't damage the phone, did you?
[28:37.280 --> 28:37.900]  No, no, I didn't.
[28:37.960 --> 28:38.340]  Not this time.
[28:38.540 --> 28:39.000]  Not this time.
[28:39.080 --> 28:39.920]  The phone had taken my money.
[28:40.020 --> 28:42.240]  See, I don't hit phones unless they take something from me.
[28:42.460 --> 28:43.940]  So I just yelled at the operator for a while.
[28:43.940 --> 28:44.520]  Well, it took your time.
[28:44.520 --> 28:44.920]  Yeah.
[28:45.520 --> 28:48.720]  But after that, I called another operator and got the information right away.
[28:48.960 --> 28:49.760]  Another AT&T operator?
[28:49.760 --> 28:50.580]  Same exact thing.
[28:50.920 --> 28:51.060]  Huh.
[28:51.160 --> 28:51.320]  Yeah.
[28:52.720 --> 28:53.400]  So I don't know.
[28:53.500 --> 28:54.320]  I don't know what to tell people.
[28:54.480 --> 29:01.060]  Basically, if they ever try a trick like that with you, just tell them about themselves and move on to the next operator.
[29:02.580 --> 29:04.340]  Let's see if we can do that, all right?
[29:04.360 --> 29:05.180]  Let's see if we can...
[29:05.180 --> 29:06.120]  We're not going to yell and scream.
[29:06.760 --> 29:08.220]  But we are going to try and get information.
[29:08.540 --> 29:09.420]  Pick an area code.
[29:09.540 --> 29:10.480]  Pick a crazy area code.
[29:12.600 --> 29:13.320]  6-1...
[29:13.320 --> 29:14.280]  It has to really exist.
[29:14.780 --> 29:16.220]  Oh, well, I don't know.
[29:16.420 --> 29:17.080]  2-1-5.
[29:17.940 --> 29:18.920]  2-1-5 is Philadelphia.
[29:19.100 --> 29:19.680]  Everybody knows that.
[29:19.740 --> 29:22.100]  No, I mean, one of the new ones that nobody knows where it goes to.
[29:22.140 --> 29:22.800]  6-4-6.
[29:23.360 --> 29:25.220]  That's New York City, and that doesn't...
[29:25.220 --> 29:29.180]  Well, I'm going to look awfully stupid calling an operator from the local area code.
[29:29.300 --> 29:29.720]  That's okay.
[29:30.000 --> 29:30.780]  You're the one talking.
[29:31.400 --> 29:33.040]  Yeah, I don't think I want to do that.
[29:34.720 --> 29:37.240]  What's your new one out on the island that you're going to be getting?
[29:37.260 --> 29:38.380]  That doesn't exist yet.
[29:38.520 --> 29:38.760]  Okay.
[29:39.280 --> 29:41.020]  That's 6-3-1, I think.
[29:42.260 --> 29:43.160]  All right, 3-2-3.
[29:43.300 --> 29:44.960]  I happen to know that's like Los Angeles area.
[29:45.280 --> 29:45.480]  All right.
[29:45.480 --> 29:47.620]  Let's get an operator here, see what we...
[29:48.760 --> 29:50.320]  I'm not sure what kind of operator we're going to get.
[29:51.380 --> 29:53.180]  Might get a local operator.
[29:53.180 --> 29:56.140]  Oh, we might get one of these new phone company operators.
[29:56.640 --> 29:56.960]  Hmm.
[29:58.600 --> 29:59.920]  Because we don't use Bell Atlantic here.
[30:00.480 --> 30:01.120]  Or we might not...
[30:01.120 --> 30:01.680]  AT&T.
[30:01.680 --> 30:02.400]  Ah, oh, oh.
[30:02.520 --> 30:04.740]  To place a call, please file the number that you are calling.
[30:04.840 --> 30:05.240]  Can I say it?
[30:05.500 --> 30:05.800]  No, no.
[30:06.660 --> 30:08.100]  This is something I've got to do on my own.
[30:08.740 --> 30:10.500]  Please hold for operator assistance.
[30:18.030 --> 30:19.550]  AT&T, how may I help you?
[30:19.710 --> 30:22.170]  Hi, can you tell me where the 3-2-3 area code is, please?
[30:22.590 --> 30:23.210]  Be glad to.
[30:23.350 --> 30:25.230]  Would you like me to place your call for you as well?
[30:25.670 --> 30:27.130]  I'll be making that call probably a little later.
[30:27.130 --> 30:30.230]  I'd just like to know where I'm going to be calling so I don't wake anybody up or anything like that.
[30:30.250 --> 30:30.810]  All right, one moment.
[30:31.030 --> 30:35.010]  That information is now provided by AT&T 00 Info Directory Service.
[30:35.310 --> 30:36.930]  One moment, please, while I connect you.
[30:36.950 --> 30:37.890]  Oh, can you believe that?
[30:37.910 --> 30:38.930]  They don't even ask permission.
[30:39.230 --> 30:40.530]  They just transfer you.
[30:41.070 --> 30:42.390]  They just transfer you.
[30:42.450 --> 30:42.950]  That's interesting.
[30:43.810 --> 30:46.610]  See, on a pay phone, they can't transfer you because you can't pay.
[30:47.170 --> 30:49.330]  But here, I don't know if they charged us already.
[30:49.430 --> 30:50.150]  I hung up right away.
[30:50.310 --> 30:51.950]  But that's what they do.
[30:52.030 --> 30:53.950]  That's the kind of sleazy trick they resort to.
[30:55.810 --> 30:58.070]  Well, I don't think we can dial carry access codes here.
[30:58.170 --> 30:58.730]  Let's see if we can.
[31:00.010 --> 31:01.490]  Some genius disabled this.
[31:01.990 --> 31:04.310]  I'm going to try 1010222.
[31:05.070 --> 31:05.810]  And then zero.
[31:06.270 --> 31:07.090]  See if that works.
[31:07.110 --> 31:08.150]  Get an MCI operator.
[31:09.830 --> 31:11.330]  That kind of thing really annoys me.
[31:13.730 --> 31:15.650]  So we just might have lost a buck and didn't know it.
[31:16.250 --> 31:18.950]  A dollar to get a bit of information like where the area code is.
[31:19.050 --> 31:19.890]  But we didn't even get the information.
[31:20.090 --> 31:21.350]  And the call cost 10 cents.
[31:21.810 --> 31:22.210]  Maybe.
[31:23.710 --> 31:24.550]  Is anybody there?
[31:26.930 --> 31:28.150]  If they are, they're just...
[31:28.150 --> 31:29.210]  MCI, are you there?
[31:30.370 --> 31:32.810]  They're just listening to a speaker, which is probably very amusing.
[31:32.890 --> 31:33.510]  This is annoying.
[31:35.570 --> 31:37.390]  See, you're stuck with these people now.
[31:37.590 --> 31:40.750]  You're stuck with one company that will rip you off.
[31:41.310 --> 31:43.190]  As opposed to another company that will rip us off?
[31:43.250 --> 31:44.630]  Well, some companies don't.
[31:45.110 --> 31:46.350]  Not all companies will do this.
[31:50.000 --> 31:55.280]  Well, I happen to know one of MCI's 800 numbers.
[31:55.340 --> 31:56.040]  So let's see if that works.
[31:58.560 --> 32:00.040]  I can memorize these things sometimes.
[32:03.880 --> 32:04.520]  All fours.
[32:04.560 --> 32:04.900]  Very good.
[32:05.020 --> 32:05.120]  Yeah.
[32:07.500 --> 32:08.980]  Actually, I'm not sure if that number still works.
[32:09.120 --> 32:09.640]  It worked a couple years.
[32:09.640 --> 32:11.660]  Thank you for calling MCI WorldCom.
[32:11.980 --> 32:16.460]  To allow us to serve you better, please enter the telephone number you are calling about.
[32:16.700 --> 32:17.700]  Area code first.
[32:18.920 --> 32:22.360]  Obviously, I don't have a touch-tone phone, so you'll just have to get a human to help me.
[32:23.020 --> 32:24.800]  That was an invalid response.
[32:25.360 --> 32:27.240]  You did not enter ten digits.
[32:27.520 --> 32:29.340]  To allow us to serve you better...
[32:29.340 --> 32:31.660]  I think that says it more than anything I could ever say.
[32:32.000 --> 32:33.200]  Area code first.
[32:33.640 --> 32:36.040]  Listen, if I don't have a touch-tone phone, how do you expect me to do that?
[32:37.300 --> 32:38.820]  That was an invalid response, right?
[32:38.880 --> 32:43.100]  Please hold while we direct your call to MCI WorldCom Sales and Service.
[32:43.260 --> 32:43.520]  Beautiful.
[32:56.180 --> 32:59.840]  In an ongoing effort to provide you with the best possible service...
[32:59.840 --> 33:00.820]  We're not going to answer your call now.
[33:00.960 --> 33:03.180]  ...the call may be taped for coaching and development of our associates.
[33:03.300 --> 33:04.000]  Coaching and development of our associates.
[33:04.000 --> 33:08.720]  You may also be selected at random to take a brief survey about your experience on this call.
[33:12.860 --> 33:14.640]  This call may be randomly selected to go over the air.
[33:14.640 --> 33:17.380]  Get online with MCI WorldCom Internet...
[33:17.380 --> 33:18.820]  Don't tell me what to do.
[33:19.000 --> 33:21.100]  ...the $1.000.00 Amazon.com gift certificate.
[33:21.220 --> 33:22.080]  Oh, but we get an Amazon.com gift certificate.
[33:22.080 --> 33:25.640]  Be sure to ask your customer service representative for more details.
[33:26.620 --> 33:27.340]  Are we going to do that?
[33:27.520 --> 33:28.600]  Okay, now we got the music.
[33:30.600 --> 33:33.200]  This is just to find out where a damn area code is.
[33:36.000 --> 33:37.500]  Oh, I think it's a nice area code.
[33:38.640 --> 33:43.340]  Due to the overwhelming response to MCI WorldCom programs, we are experiencing higher than normal call volume.
[33:43.500 --> 33:45.820]  Please continue to hold for the next available representative.
[33:46.080 --> 33:52.120]  You notice every company says that because we're so successful, we can't get to your call right now because we provide such great service.
[33:52.460 --> 33:57.340]  If you call DirecTV, that's one of the things that happens there because they have two operators to handle several billion people.
[33:57.340 --> 34:02.800]  I find it more interesting that they haven't, like, re-justified normal call volume to be just high.
[34:03.480 --> 34:04.460]  It's just always high.
[34:04.740 --> 34:05.000]  Yeah.
[34:05.940 --> 34:08.920]  It's not high because people are calling to complain about their service.
[34:09.660 --> 34:12.760]  It's high because people are calling to benefit from it.
[34:12.760 --> 34:13.060]  Yes.
[34:14.720 --> 34:16.600]  We're going to get our Amazon gift certificate thing.
[34:17.960 --> 34:21.620]  This is the last message you will hear before a representative is with you.
[34:21.880 --> 34:22.980]  Thank you for holding.
[34:23.120 --> 34:23.380]  Okay.
[34:23.580 --> 34:24.920]  Which means we'll have 45 minutes of music.
[34:24.920 --> 34:27.240]  Well, I like those ones that tell you how long you have to wait for.
[34:27.240 --> 34:30.860]  They say waiting time is approximately six days and...
[34:30.860 --> 34:31.520]  Like the DMV.
[34:31.740 --> 34:32.000]  ...three hours.
[34:32.400 --> 34:33.080]  They do that now.
[34:33.200 --> 34:33.580]  Pretty much.
[34:34.900 --> 34:36.820]  All right, so we just get to hear music from this point on.
[34:36.920 --> 34:39.180]  Well, while we're doing...
[34:39.180 --> 34:43.900]  Imagine, you know, I need to know where this area code is because someone just beat me with this crazy area code and I don't know where I'm going.
[34:44.000 --> 34:44.900]  And if you're a doctor, you know...
[34:44.900 --> 34:47.440]  By the time I get to this person, they'll be gone.
[34:49.380 --> 34:50.780]  It's a sad state of affairs.
[34:52.600 --> 34:55.060]  It's just amazing they're allowed to do this and get away with it.
[34:57.240 --> 34:59.740]  All right, let's read a listener letter here.
[35:00.600 --> 35:01.120]  You're off the hook.
[35:01.200 --> 35:07.160]  Just wanted to say thank you for placing such a great resource as the audio archives of Off the Hook on the Internet.
[35:07.480 --> 35:14.460]  I live in the UK, have only got interested in hacking per se in the last four or five years, although I've been active with computers for over a decade.
[35:14.960 --> 35:21.360]  Your program has given me both a fascinating insight into the recent history of hacking and freedom of speech, etc., and also informed me of the latest events.
[35:21.880 --> 35:24.880]  By the way, I've downloaded over 600 megabytes of your shows now.
[35:25.340 --> 35:26.840]  I think that's something worth celebrating.
[35:28.620 --> 35:29.600]  Well, that's good.
[35:29.880 --> 35:32.540]  You can listen to a show from 1988 or...
[35:32.540 --> 35:33.600]  50 megs short of a CD.
[35:34.100 --> 35:34.600]  Pretty much.
[35:34.680 --> 35:35.760]  Of course, we do have the CDs.
[35:35.880 --> 35:36.480]  Yeah, we have four CDs.
[35:36.640 --> 35:37.440]  We were selling them at...
[35:37.440 --> 35:37.820]  Wait, someone there?
[35:38.840 --> 35:39.240]  MCI?
[35:39.820 --> 35:40.220]  Ah.
[35:41.720 --> 35:45.620]  We had them as WBAI pledge drive.
[35:46.160 --> 35:46.700]  That's right.
[35:46.800 --> 35:47.280]  Knick-knack things.
[35:47.280 --> 35:48.300]  That's right, yes.
[35:48.820 --> 35:59.440]  And if you haven't gotten your premium yet, I know it's an inexcusable amount of time, but there's been a lot of weird things going on, but we haven't forgotten anybody, and we expect everything that hasn't gone out already to go out this week.
[35:59.660 --> 35:59.960]  Cool.
[36:00.440 --> 36:01.040]  And I mean that.
[36:01.240 --> 36:02.460]  And a lot of things going on.
[36:03.700 --> 36:04.220]  All right.
[36:05.920 --> 36:07.580]  Here's a letter about Sprint PCS.
[36:07.600 --> 36:09.960]  By the way, our phone number is 212-209-2900.
[36:10.180 --> 36:11.800]  We'll be taking a listen to phone calls in just a moment.
[36:14.520 --> 36:15.480]  That's the part I really like.
[36:20.200 --> 36:21.460]  Oh, when it slows down like that?
[36:21.760 --> 36:21.960]  Yeah.
[36:23.260 --> 36:24.820]  I mean, that's Liberace-inspired, I think.
[36:26.620 --> 36:29.660]  Anyway, I was a Sprint PCS customer until recently.
[36:29.840 --> 36:37.880]  I work right near the Sprint PCS store at 42 Broadway, so occasionally I drop off a check at the store, which is a very slow process.
[36:37.900 --> 36:38.720]  You have to wait online.
[36:38.720 --> 36:46.320]  The customer advocate enters some information into a terminal, and then they walk into another room to get a printed receipt.
[36:46.920 --> 36:48.560]  The whole thing takes about 12 minutes.
[36:50.040 --> 36:53.640]  Gee, I think everything involving phone companies takes a long time these days.
[36:54.520 --> 36:58.620]  Then about six months ago, the Dropbox was installed, which made things a lot faster, of course.
[36:59.180 --> 37:02.820]  And now about two months ago, they put up a big sign listing payment alternatives.
[37:03.480 --> 37:09.380]  Use the payment Dropbox for free, or give your payment to a customer service advocate for $3.
[37:09.920 --> 37:10.360]  What?
[37:10.560 --> 37:10.760]  Yeah.
[37:11.100 --> 37:12.620]  They'll charge you $3 to pay them.
[37:13.480 --> 37:14.120]  Wait a second.
[37:14.220 --> 37:15.720]  I've got to give them $3 to pay them.
[37:15.720 --> 37:18.160]  So that I can hand them a piece of paper, and they type it to the computer?
[37:18.580 --> 37:19.260]  Pretty much, yeah.
[37:20.540 --> 37:23.240]  As this listener says, they are idiots.
[37:23.500 --> 37:30.120]  I've since canceled my Sprint PCS account and switched to Bell Atlantic Mobile, mainly because they have better coverage in New York City and Long Island.
[37:30.320 --> 37:30.620]  Bam.
[37:31.180 --> 37:32.280]  That's from Bob in New York City.
[37:32.380 --> 37:38.400]  And yeah, you know, I would switch in a heartbeat to another phone company, but I think they're going to do the same thing.
[37:38.640 --> 37:46.320]  I think they're going to charge you for nothing and overcharge you for the time you spend on the phone and things like that.
[37:49.020 --> 37:51.140]  Okay, and one news story.
[37:51.280 --> 37:53.240]  I'm just going to read this news story, and I'm going to take some phone calls.
[37:53.340 --> 37:55.580]  If they haven't answered our question by then, I say to hell with them.
[37:55.680 --> 37:56.920]  What was the one we were looking up again?
[37:57.380 --> 37:57.900]  3-2-3.
[37:58.080 --> 37:58.240]  Okay.
[37:58.440 --> 37:58.600]  Yeah.
[37:59.100 --> 37:59.860]  I even forgot.
[38:01.380 --> 38:07.280]  Authorities have arrested a teenager they said sent an anonymous email threat to blow up IBM headquarters in Ormoc, New York.
[38:07.360 --> 38:08.000]  That's not nice.
[38:08.400 --> 38:10.380]  Unless the computer maker paid him $5 million.
[38:11.700 --> 38:18.060]  The Brooklyn, New York resident made a similar email bomb threat against Microsoft in Redmond, Washington, but nobody seemed to care about that.
[38:19.900 --> 38:29.660]  FBI agents, members of the New York Police Department, and Bomb Squad found bomb-making and explosives recipes at the Brooklyn apartment where they arrested Jahar Joel Navarro.
[38:30.460 --> 38:31.760]  As authorities said this yesterday.
[38:32.300 --> 38:34.040]  Actually, Friday they said this.
[38:34.320 --> 38:39.720]  A search of the apartment turned up documents on terrorist methods, information that was apparently downloaded from the internet.
[38:39.720 --> 38:41.440]  Oh, a very dangerous place, that internet.
[38:41.740 --> 38:41.820]  Yeah.
[38:41.820 --> 38:43.440]  Yeah, that's all they found.
[38:43.580 --> 38:45.680]  They didn't actually find any bomb-making materials.
[38:45.780 --> 38:46.540]  They just found...
[38:46.540 --> 38:46.860]  Books.
[38:47.400 --> 38:48.580]  ...the equivalent of books.
[38:48.980 --> 38:49.860]  Things on disks.
[38:50.100 --> 38:51.040]  Things from the net.
[38:51.660 --> 38:55.680]  Anyway, Navarro was arrested after a court-approved search of his stepfather's apartment in Brooklyn.
[38:55.860 --> 38:58.320]  He was charged with threatening to use a weapon of mass destruction.
[38:58.900 --> 39:00.700]  A charge that carries a life sentence.
[39:00.960 --> 39:01.400]  Mm-hmm.
[39:01.580 --> 39:02.560]  ...is being held without bail.
[39:02.620 --> 39:04.760]  Now, I don't support this kind of thing.
[39:04.840 --> 39:06.340]  Did he actually put his own return address?
[39:06.580 --> 39:07.080]  Probably did.
[39:07.180 --> 39:08.540]  Probably sent it from Hotmail or something.
[39:08.620 --> 39:09.000]  Who knows?
[39:09.400 --> 39:18.140]  But, you know, you can't support people doing this kind of thing, but that's no excuse to allow them to act completely crazy when dealing with this.
[39:18.200 --> 39:20.380]  Some idiot goes and makes a threat.
[39:20.560 --> 39:21.340]  Well, how can you...
[39:21.340 --> 39:23.160]  You treat him like some idiot that goes and makes a threat.
[39:23.220 --> 39:24.560]  You don't throw him away for the rest of his life.
[39:24.740 --> 39:28.100]  How can you differentiate the legitimate threats from the idiots until after the fact?
[39:28.100 --> 39:31.340]  The legitimate threats tend to have a lot of the explosives all ready to go.
[39:31.780 --> 39:32.800]  Just the words.
[39:33.060 --> 39:37.160]  So you as a federal agent are going to tell IBM, well, this sounds like it's nothing.
[39:37.160 --> 39:38.720]  He's probably just some wacko.
[39:38.880 --> 39:40.360]  You know, we'll get around to him at some point.
[39:40.400 --> 39:42.040]  Well, you're going to keep an eye on him, too, obviously.
[39:43.180 --> 39:49.380]  But, I mean, you know, how easy is it for you to go home and type a letter and simply send it on the Internet?
[39:49.900 --> 39:54.680]  Do you really think there's anything you can say in that letter that should get you sent to prison for the rest of your life?
[39:54.820 --> 39:57.600]  Well, you've already figured that I might be going to prison, so...
[39:57.600 --> 39:58.940]  Well, this is a good way to ensure it.
[39:58.980 --> 40:05.000]  No, I actually think about what I send because I'm a responsible individual who can, you know, manage to control my own actions.
[40:05.340 --> 40:08.120]  Or what if you forge mail from somebody else?
[40:08.540 --> 40:09.420]  I've never done that.
[40:09.560 --> 40:10.120]  It's easy.
[40:10.360 --> 40:11.380]  It's very easy to do.
[40:11.440 --> 40:12.240]  But I've never done that.
[40:12.240 --> 40:17.620]  You could forge mail from somebody else saying you're going to blow up IBM and all of a sudden this person faces prison for the rest of their lives.
[40:18.260 --> 40:19.920]  I mean, you know...
[40:19.920 --> 40:22.340]  Well, they're probably going to go to his house and not find bomb making.
[40:22.560 --> 40:26.900]  There's a difference between pranks and threats and there's a difference between funny pranks and stupid pranks.
[40:27.020 --> 40:28.220]  This is a very stupid prank.
[40:28.380 --> 40:29.360]  No question about that.
[40:29.500 --> 40:31.640]  But I don't think it's a very serious threat.
[40:31.940 --> 40:34.040]  You have to differentiate that once you do the investigation.
[40:34.320 --> 40:34.520]  Correct.
[40:34.700 --> 40:38.720]  Which means you have to respond to all of these things with the maximum amount of force.
[40:38.920 --> 40:39.100]  That's right.
[40:39.260 --> 40:42.080]  And then afterwards you can say, okay, he was just a stupid idiot.
[40:42.240 --> 40:42.360]  Right.
[40:42.480 --> 40:43.060]  So that's what they did.
[40:43.100 --> 40:44.200]  They responded with the maximum force.
[40:44.260 --> 40:47.300]  It doesn't mean they have to treat him as if it was the maximum crime.
[40:47.480 --> 40:47.980]  That's what I'm saying.
[40:48.280 --> 40:50.700]  Until after they've evaluated that he's just some kook.
[40:50.900 --> 40:51.140]  Mm-hmm.
[40:52.320 --> 40:54.420]  Not that the people who actually do it aren't kooks.
[40:54.420 --> 40:55.620]  Let's, uh...
[40:55.620 --> 40:55.800]  Yeah.
[40:55.800 --> 40:58.680]  Let's take some phone calls now because this MCI thing is going nowhere.
[41:01.020 --> 41:02.960]  But we're getting the same piece of music.
[41:03.140 --> 41:03.860]  It would be nice.
[41:03.920 --> 41:07.240]  It would be nice to have a radio station that just played music like this all the time.
[41:10.350 --> 41:13.250]  Maybe one day Pacifica will decide to have a show like this.
[41:13.350 --> 41:14.410]  Just plays music over the phone.
[41:17.370 --> 41:18.610]  Well, we'll let you know.
[41:19.650 --> 41:21.670]  212-209-2900 is our phone number.
[41:21.790 --> 41:22.110]  Good evening.
[41:22.250 --> 41:22.730]  You're on the air.
[41:25.390 --> 41:25.830]  All right.
[41:25.870 --> 41:32.210]  Well, that was a very interesting noise you made there, but see, when you hear my voice coming through the phone instead of the radio saying you're on the air, that means you are on the air right now.
[41:32.310 --> 41:32.610]  Good evening.
[41:32.770 --> 41:33.450]  You're on the air.
[41:33.970 --> 41:34.330]  Hello?
[41:34.530 --> 41:34.690]  Hi.
[41:34.750 --> 41:35.070]  How are you?
[41:35.390 --> 41:35.670]  Okay.
[41:36.130 --> 41:37.450]  Listen, I was...
[41:37.970 --> 41:44.190]  Right now, I subscribe to AT&T on the long-distance thing, and they have that charge there if you don't make any calls.
[41:45.730 --> 41:48.130]  I was wondering if you do anything about Working Assets.
[41:48.950 --> 41:52.310]  Working Assets is a company out of California that basically...
[41:52.310 --> 42:01.310]  I think they charge the same amount as Sprint, and they'll take a percentage of your bill and donate it to certain charities, which they'll let you know which ones they are, obviously.
[42:02.950 --> 42:03.370]  And...
[42:03.370 --> 42:05.830]  Do you have any idea about what their service is like?
[42:05.830 --> 42:06.950]  How would you rate their service?
[42:07.170 --> 42:08.690]  I haven't heard complaints about their service.
[42:08.810 --> 42:10.230]  I know they offer credit cards.
[42:10.450 --> 42:13.370]  They offer Working Assets credit cards, and they also offer long-distance.
[42:13.770 --> 42:21.630]  So I think it's as good as the credit card company, which I guess would be Visa or MasterCard, and the phone service they resell, which I think is Sprint.
[42:22.030 --> 42:22.470]  Uh-huh.
[42:22.570 --> 42:23.070]  Oh, I see.
[42:23.250 --> 42:24.650]  So, in other words, can I do...
[42:24.650 --> 42:25.210]  Can I do...
[42:25.210 --> 42:29.070]  Would you just sit down without being charged and call them up and ask them for an area card?
[42:29.090 --> 42:29.890]  That's a good question.
[42:29.890 --> 42:30.350]  I don't know.
[42:30.430 --> 42:31.930]  I've never called the Working Assets Operator.
[42:32.150 --> 42:34.210]  I don't even know if there are Working Assets Operators.
[42:34.270 --> 42:35.990]  They might route to Sprint or something like that.
[42:36.190 --> 42:37.450]  So, give it a try.
[42:37.710 --> 42:46.950]  And the thing is, though, if you run into the kind of experience that I just ran into, I'm sure you could complain to Working Assets, and their word would carry a lot more weight than anything else.
[42:47.110 --> 42:47.670]  Okay, fine.
[42:47.890 --> 42:48.130]  All right?
[42:48.190 --> 42:48.790]  Okay, thanks a lot.
[42:48.910 --> 42:49.330]  Thanks for calling.
[42:49.410 --> 42:49.610]  Bye-bye.
[42:49.750 --> 42:50.810]  But it really is nice music.
[42:51.750 --> 42:55.550]  Well, yeah, it's nice music, but the thing is, they're a telephone company, all right?
[42:55.610 --> 43:07.510]  And the telephone company should provide you with telephone information when you need it, not after 20 minutes of listening to Liberace on the radio, and certainly not after you have to pay just to hear what three numbers translate to.
[43:08.330 --> 43:09.050]  It's nuts.
[43:09.050 --> 43:09.850]  Yes, it really is.
[43:10.310 --> 43:11.210]  I can argue that.
[43:11.390 --> 43:14.090]  And, you know, the only reason this happens is because we let it happen.
[43:14.230 --> 43:16.190]  We just stand by and we let it happen.
[43:16.850 --> 43:18.670]  People should be up in arms about this.
[43:20.230 --> 43:20.850]  I don't know.
[43:20.950 --> 43:26.150]  Should we start another campaign, you know, just to get the area code information for free?
[43:26.190 --> 43:28.610]  I mean, everything you ask, what can the operator do anymore?
[43:28.770 --> 43:30.170]  What can the operator do without charging you?
[43:31.670 --> 43:36.130]  Tell you that they can connect you for free if you give them the number.
[43:36.290 --> 43:40.370]  Do you think if I had said to that operator that, yes, you can connect my call, she would have told me.
[43:41.050 --> 43:41.430]  Hmm.
[43:41.890 --> 43:42.730]  Right then and there.
[43:44.550 --> 43:45.590]  I just had an idea.
[43:45.970 --> 43:46.750]  I just had an idea.
[43:46.910 --> 43:47.410]  Hang on a second.
[43:48.210 --> 43:49.010]  We're going to get even.
[43:49.490 --> 43:49.730]  Okay.
[43:53.490 --> 43:54.290]  Pick an exchange.
[43:56.010 --> 43:56.830]  That's a good exchange.
[43:57.990 --> 43:58.890]  I don't live in L.A.
[44:00.290 --> 44:00.650]  Three...
[44:00.650 --> 44:01.270]  AT&T.
[44:01.730 --> 44:04.370]  To place a call, please file the number that you are calling.
[44:06.370 --> 44:06.730]  246.
[44:06.810 --> 44:07.430]  That's a good exchange.
[44:07.610 --> 44:07.770]  Okay.
[44:08.410 --> 44:10.110]  Please hold for operator assistance.
[44:12.810 --> 44:13.530]  AT&T.
[44:13.630 --> 44:14.410]  How may I help you?
[44:14.530 --> 44:14.830]  Hi.
[44:14.970 --> 44:20.470]  I'm trying to make a phone call to area code 323-246-9900.
[44:20.610 --> 44:24.510]  But before I make the call, I just want to know where it is and then if you could complete that call for me, I'd appreciate it.
[44:24.510 --> 44:24.930]  One moment.
[44:25.290 --> 44:25.590]  Thank you.
[44:30.200 --> 44:30.660]  Where's this?
[44:30.700 --> 44:31.420]  Los Angeles.
[44:31.780 --> 44:32.400]  Los Angeles.
[44:32.580 --> 44:33.300]  Thank you very much.
[44:33.440 --> 44:35.000]  I have no intention of making that phone call now.
[44:35.860 --> 44:37.300]  You evil, evil man, you.
[44:39.300 --> 44:41.100]  I stuck them with the bill, I guess.
[44:41.400 --> 44:42.400]  So it's Los Angeles.
[44:42.600 --> 44:43.180]  Los Angeles.
[44:43.440 --> 44:43.700]  Good.
[44:43.900 --> 44:44.700]  That's how you get the information.
[44:44.880 --> 44:49.760]  You have to trick them into thinking they're going to make money off you and then hang up before they have a chance to.
[44:50.200 --> 44:50.880]  Well, they did.
[44:50.980 --> 44:52.100]  I mean, you placed the call.
[44:52.200 --> 44:52.420]  Look at that.
[44:52.460 --> 44:53.180]  That line's ringing now.
[44:54.000 --> 44:54.820]  They called back.
[44:54.940 --> 44:55.780]  I'm not going to pick that one up.
[44:55.940 --> 44:56.260]  Over here.
[44:56.360 --> 44:56.600]  Good evening.
[44:56.680 --> 44:57.040]  You're on the air.
[44:57.720 --> 44:58.720]  Hi, Emmanuel.
[44:58.920 --> 44:59.160]  Yes.
[44:59.380 --> 45:00.940]  Hey, this is Monarch from IRC.
[45:01.120 --> 45:06.160]  I just found a news article in, I think it's Newsday.
[45:06.360 --> 45:06.680]  Uh-huh.
[45:06.900 --> 45:07.820]  It's kind of interesting.
[45:07.980 --> 45:08.720]  It's about...
[45:08.720 --> 45:10.880]  It was titled Enemies and the Machine.
[45:11.180 --> 45:16.260]  It's about how recently there have been increasing attacks on government computers.
[45:16.580 --> 45:16.800]  Yeah.
[45:16.940 --> 45:18.540]  There's just an interesting number.
[45:19.580 --> 45:20.600]  In the past...
[45:21.320 --> 45:28.080]  In June of this year, there were 68 incidents involving 145,737 government computers.
[45:28.280 --> 45:30.200]  And that's tripled the number from six months earlier.
[45:30.740 --> 45:31.580]  I just found that amusing.
[45:31.900 --> 45:32.160]  Interesting.
[45:32.700 --> 45:34.040]  You know how they reach these numbers?
[45:34.160 --> 45:34.960]  They reach these numbers.
[45:35.160 --> 45:47.020]  They basically pull them out of various parts of their anatomy because they say things like 250,000 hack attempts and then you later find out that it's based on a number that they came up with themselves based on an internal audit.
[45:47.580 --> 45:49.200]  So you really can't take any of that seriously.
[45:49.200 --> 45:54.640]  Yeah, it says just before that the Federal Computer Incident Response Capability Center.
[45:54.840 --> 45:55.220]  Mm-hmm.
[45:55.300 --> 45:56.680]  That's all one organization.
[45:58.060 --> 46:02.520]  In the same article, they mention Kevin Mitnick for a few paragraphs.
[46:02.680 --> 46:03.340]  What did they say about him?
[46:04.720 --> 46:05.320]  It's...
[46:05.320 --> 46:14.620]  What really bothered me is after they talk about what he quote-unquote did, it says Mitnick was able to deal for a mere three years total in jail time.
[46:14.920 --> 46:15.140]  Ugh.
[46:15.540 --> 46:16.520]  When was this article written?
[46:17.340 --> 46:21.660]  It was in the August 18th Newsday, but it's by someone from the LA Times.
[46:21.900 --> 46:23.060]  A mere three years.
[46:23.240 --> 46:23.340]  Yes.
[46:23.340 --> 46:25.020]  He's been in jail over four and a half years.
[46:25.180 --> 46:30.100]  He'll be in jail five years by the time he gets out and he was on the run for a good two and a half years before then.
[46:30.100 --> 46:32.040]  So I don't know where they're coming up with these numbers.
[46:32.400 --> 46:34.360]  Yeah, that just really got on my nerves when I read that.
[46:34.900 --> 46:36.400]  And the whole article was about...
[46:36.400 --> 46:39.540]  It kind of gives you the whole idea that hackers are bad and hackers are evil.
[46:39.660 --> 46:40.000]  They're bad people.
[46:40.000 --> 46:44.780]  I was just going to say, it sounds like some reporter decided to go, hmm, I need a topic for today.
[46:44.780 --> 46:46.100]  Okay, I'm going to do...
[46:46.100 --> 46:46.460]  Hackers!
[46:46.600 --> 46:47.580]  Okay, what do I know about hackers?
[46:47.880 --> 46:50.480]  And sit down and start writing just pulling things from everywhere.
[46:50.620 --> 46:53.140]  They've got the conclusion ready before they even start these things.
[46:53.840 --> 46:57.900]  They know who they want to talk to and they know what kind of things they want to reinforce.
[46:58.340 --> 47:05.600]  They have the same image as an old guy sitting in a room with a little laptop drinking coffee and sitting on a toilet bowl which is like for his use.
[47:06.660 --> 47:07.020]  Okay.
[47:07.780 --> 47:08.840]  Okay, one last thing.
[47:09.040 --> 47:09.200]  Yeah.
[47:09.520 --> 47:12.720]  I'm an RC so I just want to read off a couple names so people like me more.
[47:13.200 --> 47:13.760]  That's okay.
[47:13.900 --> 47:14.440]  We don't need...
[47:14.440 --> 47:15.600]  People like you fine as you are.
[47:15.680 --> 47:16.380]  Let's go to another phone call.
[47:16.460 --> 47:16.620]  Good evening.
[47:16.740 --> 47:17.060]  You're on the air.
[47:18.020 --> 47:18.280]  Hello?
[47:18.500 --> 47:18.660]  Yeah.
[47:19.300 --> 47:29.920]  Yeah, you guys just scared me a little bit because I was thinking I made an educated guess and said, well, let me go with a Sprint PCS cell phone because I was tired of that analog AT&T crap.
[47:30.040 --> 47:30.240]  Yeah.
[47:30.380 --> 47:31.880]  Now you got me thinking, well, wait a minute.
[47:32.040 --> 47:33.720]  I don't know if there's really an answer to this.
[47:33.740 --> 47:37.620]  Is there really a superior quality...
[47:38.160 --> 47:40.140]  My friend turned me off the comedy point.
[47:40.280 --> 47:42.040]  He said their customer service sucks.
[47:42.160 --> 47:44.620]  So what is your bottom line opinion on this?
[47:44.920 --> 47:51.260]  Well, you know, I think they all have pretty much their negative points and I think in most cases those outweigh their positive points.
[47:52.400 --> 47:56.120]  Sprint PCS customer service is I'd say as bad as Omnipoint's customer service.
[47:56.220 --> 47:57.320]  I don't know about the Atlantic Mobile.
[47:57.540 --> 47:58.120]  I've never used them.
[47:59.420 --> 48:02.400]  The thing is, the service, the positive things, do they...
[48:02.400 --> 48:03.780]  You know, which one outweighs the other?
[48:04.200 --> 48:06.300]  At this point, it's kind of close.
[48:06.580 --> 48:11.220]  I mean, Sprint PCS seems to be a whole lot cheaper when you talk about per minute costs.
[48:11.980 --> 48:16.900]  I was looking at what I was paying for analog, but that wasn't even the issue.
[48:17.020 --> 48:18.980]  I was getting 30 minutes for $30.
[48:19.640 --> 48:23.280]  All right, I'm getting a lot more now, but the thing is, I couldn't...
[48:23.280 --> 48:28.720]  I'm right here on the LIE sitting in traffic and I can't dial a phone number.
[48:28.860 --> 48:32.460]  I have to pull over a pay phone to make a phone call.
[48:32.600 --> 48:33.140]  Why is that?
[48:33.840 --> 48:35.620]  Because they just won't let me connect.
[48:35.620 --> 48:36.500]  I get the little beep.
[48:37.220 --> 48:38.680]  You can't get online.
[48:38.680 --> 48:45.800]  I guess they have too many subscribers in the area, so you try to dial 611, which is their internal operator, you can't get that.
[48:45.880 --> 48:47.740]  Wait a minute, you had a rest stop on the side of the LIE?
[48:48.040 --> 48:49.520]  Oh, well, not right now.
[48:49.600 --> 48:49.920]  Oh, okay.
[48:50.040 --> 48:51.780]  You know, I'm talking about when I'm in my car.
[48:52.020 --> 48:52.200]  This is why.
[48:53.280 --> 49:01.700]  There's a section, I don't know if this is a coincidence or something, but there's a section right next to a rest stop, I think it's the one with the train car on the LIE, that you can't make any cellular phone calls for some reason.
[49:02.260 --> 49:05.180]  Just that section, so you have to pull over and make a phone call.
[49:05.540 --> 49:07.220]  Maybe there's blind spots out there.
[49:07.240 --> 49:17.700]  I don't know, but I said, well, I've been an analog customer for seven years, and it seems like either they're oversubscribing, in other words, it's just too many people that they're subscribing and they can't support the service.
[49:17.880 --> 49:20.420]  People we know at Sprint PCS have admitted to that.
[49:20.520 --> 49:24.520]  Yeah, that was the case a lot worse than it is now a couple of years ago.
[49:24.820 --> 49:26.260]  And it probably still is bad now.
[49:26.480 --> 49:28.320]  I guess you call it kind of a draw.
[49:28.540 --> 49:32.460]  It's like, really, there's no way to say, okay, go with this because one is better.
[49:32.640 --> 49:35.880]  It's pretty much just your random luck, I guess, huh?
[49:36.040 --> 49:47.320]  Yeah, well, you know, what you have to do is find out what's right and what's wrong about the service you're using and tell people because then word gets out, another company will come along and do a better job or the company that you're with will hear about it and try to improve.
[49:47.540 --> 49:48.560]  That's really the only way.
[49:49.080 --> 49:54.720]  Well, Sprint, so I couldn't say anything intelligent about them yet, but I would try to...
[49:54.720 --> 50:01.480]  I think their analog services, I think they kind of overloaded subscription in certain areas and it's hard to get a connection.
[50:01.620 --> 50:02.920]  You mean the digital service, right?
[50:03.260 --> 50:03.760]  No, no, no.
[50:03.880 --> 50:04.960]  I was with analog.
[50:05.220 --> 50:06.220]  Right now, I'm pure digital.
[50:06.440 --> 50:08.380]  You know, you have the option of going both.
[50:08.580 --> 50:12.020]  You could go where you could get these phones that are analog and digital.
[50:12.380 --> 50:13.700]  That kind of scared me a little bit.
[50:13.780 --> 50:18.480]  I thought maybe I would get back into the same thing with analog where it was dropping calls on me left and right.
[50:18.820 --> 50:21.900]  I've only been with Sprint for a month now as pure digital.
[50:22.100 --> 50:24.800]  I haven't had any problems yet, but I'm too new to know about that.
[50:25.240 --> 50:27.560]  But analog, it makes me wake up at night.
[50:27.740 --> 50:28.360]  It gives me nightmares.
[50:28.640 --> 50:30.920]  So I'd be kind of scared to recommend that to anybody.
[50:31.100 --> 50:33.100]  No, I don't think anybody would recommend analog these days.
[50:33.860 --> 50:34.140]  All right.
[50:34.300 --> 50:35.620]  I just want to know your thoughts on that.
[50:35.940 --> 50:36.260]  Okay.
[50:36.500 --> 50:37.080]  Well, thanks for calling.
[50:37.280 --> 50:37.880]  Thanks a lot.
[50:38.000 --> 50:38.080]  Bye.
[50:38.080 --> 50:38.260]  All right.
[50:39.440 --> 50:43.720]  Certainly is a changing world as far as the different phone services.
[50:44.080 --> 50:44.240]  Indeed.
[50:44.480 --> 50:46.280]  But I'm not happy with any of them to be honest.
[50:46.500 --> 50:47.800]  They all have their disadvantages.
[50:48.240 --> 50:59.140]  Well, if this gentleman is like way out on the island all the time, he may want to consider just getting rid of Sprint PCS because from what I know, coverage out on the island for Sprint PCS digital is like really lame.
[50:59.140 --> 51:00.620]  Yeah, it's pretty bad.
[51:01.640 --> 51:02.680]  But, you know, I kind of like that.
[51:02.760 --> 51:03.920]  You know, I don't have coverage in my house.
[51:04.160 --> 51:05.660]  I don't want my phone to be ringing in my house.
[51:05.780 --> 51:06.960]  I don't, you know, it doesn't bother me.
[51:07.020 --> 51:07.800]  You can also turn it off.
[51:08.120 --> 51:08.680]  That's true too.
[51:08.700 --> 51:12.480]  And then again, you also have to keep your phone in the battery charger constantly because it's a really...
[51:12.480 --> 51:13.040]  Now, that's the other thing.
[51:13.100 --> 51:16.580]  If you get a phone that sucks, then, you know, it doesn't matter about the service.
[51:16.760 --> 51:18.000]  You know, the phone is another thing.
[51:18.100 --> 51:24.420]  But I have a phone that has like a talk time of about 15 minutes and a, you know, a standby time of about three hours.
[51:24.740 --> 51:26.100]  That's what it seems to boil down to.
[51:26.220 --> 51:27.840]  So it's really kind of frustrating.
[51:28.040 --> 51:30.400]  So you have to find a good phone then find a good company.
[51:31.040 --> 51:31.700]  Let's take another phone call.
[51:31.760 --> 51:32.000]  Good evening.
[51:32.100 --> 51:32.540]  You're on the air.
[51:34.560 --> 51:35.720]  It's Tommy Pickles.
[51:35.900 --> 51:36.400]  Hey, how are you?
[51:36.860 --> 51:37.280]  All right.
[51:37.460 --> 51:41.420]  And one of the things that hasn't been brought up in the show that I want to tell everyone about.
[51:41.560 --> 51:41.680]  Sure.
[51:42.140 --> 51:44.440]  DEFCON has avoided the H2K conflict.
[51:45.060 --> 51:48.040]  where they schedule it from 28th to the 30th of July.
[51:48.240 --> 51:48.920]  So two weeks later.
[51:49.320 --> 51:49.660]  Yay.
[51:49.980 --> 51:50.560]  Oh, okay.
[51:50.560 --> 51:54.760]  So they're going to have DEFCON two weeks after our conference in New York.
[51:54.940 --> 51:55.060]  Yeah.
[51:55.200 --> 51:56.620]  Originally it was on their webpage right now.
[51:56.800 --> 52:00.240]  It says, new DEFCON 2000 will be July 28th through 30th.
[52:00.540 --> 52:02.900]  But at the title bar, it's DEFCON 8.
[52:03.060 --> 52:04.320]  So I wonder what they're going to call it.
[52:05.100 --> 52:10.560]  You know, because like, it's in the middle of the year so there's really no difference calling it 2000 or 8th.
[52:10.900 --> 52:11.620]  Yeah, that's true.
[52:11.880 --> 52:15.040]  Another thing, Isaac, when is GHICON?
[52:16.080 --> 52:16.480]  GHICON?
[52:16.880 --> 52:18.480]  Are we going to have a conflict with that?
[52:18.640 --> 52:19.200]  I mean...
[52:19.200 --> 52:25.240]  Well, typically, so far, with the one year's worth of history, it runs right along with DEFCON.
[52:25.360 --> 52:28.180]  So as long as I'm not there, it's here in New York.
[52:28.220 --> 52:31.760]  Oh, so like, maybe I'll design a GHICON logo.
[52:32.060 --> 52:32.480]  All right.
[52:32.840 --> 52:34.720]  We'll sell the t-shirts at GHICON.
[52:34.860 --> 52:35.240]  Sounds good.
[52:35.280 --> 52:37.700]  So, Tom, anything new from the world of corporate rock there?
[52:38.180 --> 52:38.780]  Let's see.
[52:38.820 --> 52:41.600]  I was just hanging out at the corporation there.
[52:41.720 --> 52:42.100]  Who knows?
[52:45.300 --> 52:45.740]  Uh-huh.
[52:46.360 --> 52:52.680]  You know, and I've heard complaints about the hostess's email and her phone being hacked.
[52:52.900 --> 52:53.140]  What?
[52:53.160 --> 52:53.680]  Like her voicemail.
[52:53.680 --> 52:55.380]  Oh, of course, you're going to hear things like that.
[52:55.420 --> 52:57.320]  Of course, they're going to say that hackers do everything.
[52:57.600 --> 52:59.600]  Oh, my voicemail, my voicemail, so I don't know.
[52:59.700 --> 53:01.580]  Stub your toe on the curb, it's going to be a hacker's fault.
[53:01.880 --> 53:10.440]  Yeah, and, you know, it's like, you know, telling somebody about it, you know, saying it's because a lot of people think like other people, so it's easy to guess numbers.
[53:10.780 --> 53:16.120]  I said, you know, if I ask anyone from 1 to 10, name the first odd number that comes in their head and they'll always say 3.
[53:17.120 --> 53:17.440]  You know?
[53:17.820 --> 53:22.060]  Well, you should have asked us first, but, yeah, I guess it's normally what they'll do.
[53:22.360 --> 53:24.940]  So, you know, you can normally guess numbers like that, I was telling them.
[53:25.780 --> 53:29.680]  But, you know, that's the only thing that's really hammering down I'm from the corporate thing right now.
[53:29.840 --> 53:31.500]  There's really no news about the show.
[53:32.640 --> 53:36.420]  And then me and my gang are probably going to go down to Freak Nick this October.
[53:36.840 --> 53:38.840]  We're tired of the New York scene for Halloween.
[53:39.680 --> 53:43.080]  So that's the next event hopefully people will trek down to.
[53:43.420 --> 53:44.760]  Okay, and don't forget the meeting this Friday.
[53:45.020 --> 53:49.340]  Yep, we'll all be at the meeting this Friday and gather with all the people.
[53:50.200 --> 53:56.040]  And hopefully my gang's t-shirts will be ready for H2K because we have a good package.
[53:56.040 --> 53:59.120]  Well, you have almost a year to prepare them, so I think that won't be a problem whatsoever.
[53:59.360 --> 54:01.080]  Yep, and we've got a Supreme package coming out.
[54:01.120 --> 54:07.640]  It's going to be like our t-shirt, a CD full of software, not illegal software, of course, open source.
[54:07.940 --> 54:10.040]  An installation video, maybe.
[54:10.880 --> 54:13.760]  And we're also going to put a comic book in with it.
[54:14.060 --> 54:19.260]  Like about comic episodes of our gang because one of our members is a comic book artist.
[54:19.520 --> 54:22.940]  So it should be a good package that we're going to give to all the people out there.
[54:23.060 --> 54:25.680]  All right, well we expect quite a lot of attendance and we expect quite a lot of people...
[54:25.680 --> 54:29.400]  I think we have a lot of attendance because there sure is a hell of a lot of volunteers out there.
[54:29.560 --> 54:30.280]  Yeah, definitely.
[54:31.140 --> 54:32.240]  I'll talk to you guys soon.
[54:32.380 --> 54:32.900]  Thanks for calling.
[54:34.020 --> 54:35.800]  The H2K momentum has begun, yes.
[54:35.920 --> 54:36.000]  Yes.
[54:36.520 --> 54:37.100]  Two things.
[54:37.280 --> 54:38.480]  Guys, leave them alone.
[54:39.260 --> 54:41.140]  There's no reason to screw around with their voicemail.
[54:41.260 --> 54:41.400]  Who?
[54:42.020 --> 54:43.320]  Whoever's like playing around with their voicemail.
[54:43.320 --> 54:45.360]  When do you get the idea there's any truth behind that whatsoever?
[54:45.620 --> 54:46.360]  I don't know.
[54:46.900 --> 54:47.500]  I mean...
[54:47.500 --> 54:48.240]  It's not worth it.
[54:48.680 --> 54:50.380]  No, it's not, but I don't think that's happening.
[54:50.700 --> 54:51.340]  I mean, I really don't.
[54:51.640 --> 54:52.660]  Well, secondly...
[54:52.660 --> 54:55.540]  Every time there's a controversy, people think hackers are going to do something to you.
[54:55.680 --> 55:01.600]  Case in point, did John Marko's credit report ever have any bad ratings on it, ever?
[55:01.980 --> 55:04.000]  Can you think of a better target?
[55:04.480 --> 55:06.020]  Shytomo Shimomura, what happened to him?
[55:06.160 --> 55:06.960]  Nothing happened to these people.
[55:06.960 --> 55:09.260]  Actually, we don't even know what happened to Shytomo Shimomura.
[55:09.360 --> 55:09.980]  We would have heard.
[55:10.080 --> 55:11.860]  We would have heard something bad happened, you know.
[55:12.520 --> 55:16.720]  Other than that, as he said, something that wasn't mentioned, I just recalled.
[55:17.240 --> 55:26.680]  Germany, the president of their economic-type group thing, yesterday declares that cryptographic source code, free export.
[55:27.220 --> 55:27.640]  Nice.
[55:27.980 --> 55:28.180]  Nothing.
[55:28.360 --> 55:32.120]  No waivers, no tariffs, no, you know, double-check this, sign that paper, just...
[55:32.120 --> 55:34.120]  They'll knock him off somewhere next week, probably.
[55:34.780 --> 55:36.160]  But that's one for us.
[55:36.260 --> 55:37.320]  We have time for one more phone call.
[55:37.400 --> 55:37.620]  Good evening.
[55:37.700 --> 55:38.160]  You're on the air.
[55:38.840 --> 55:39.680]  Oh, great, right.
[55:39.860 --> 55:47.940]  I wanted to ask that representative, if she was familiar with the area code that you were in, and see if she would charge you for that, and then ask her for another one.
[55:48.420 --> 55:48.880]  You know what I mean?
[55:49.080 --> 55:50.980]  Like, say she's in New Jersey or New York.
[55:51.580 --> 55:54.660]  Does she know what 201 represents, and if she would just say it?
[55:54.740 --> 56:02.520]  The problem is that when you're on a regular, either office or home phone, they'll just transfer you without even asking you to the number that charges a lot of money.
[56:02.760 --> 56:07.640]  If you're at a pay phone, you can get into these long-standing conversations with them, because they can't transfer you, because you have no way of paying.
[56:08.420 --> 56:15.720]  I want to quickly say that regional and long-distance, AT&T has put a scam on me that other people might want to pay attention to on their bills.
[56:15.880 --> 56:16.140]  Oh, yes.
[56:16.260 --> 56:16.600]  I was...
[56:16.600 --> 56:17.420]  Oh, you know about that one?
[56:17.520 --> 56:19.240]  Well, let me see if I can guess.
[56:19.240 --> 56:26.800]  They basically switched you over to a regional calling plan in addition to the long-distance calling, and now all of a sudden you're paying more for local-type calls than you were before, right?
[56:26.860 --> 56:34.420]  No, actually, I accepted an AT&T offer two years ago, because they were going to give $80 to take long-distance, and the regional came with it.
[56:34.500 --> 56:34.760]  Right.
[56:34.760 --> 56:40.000]  Well, I was already on a regional plan with Bell Atlantic, which was, I guess, 9x at the time.
[56:40.200 --> 56:40.600]  And you lost that?
[56:40.600 --> 56:41.780]  So I'm paying regional twice.
[56:42.520 --> 56:44.940]  For the last two years, I've paid for my regional calls twice.
[56:45.060 --> 56:48.120]  I don't know why they'd charge... I mean, you should be only on one, not the other.
[56:48.300 --> 56:48.880]  That doesn't make any sense.
[56:48.900 --> 56:49.320]  That's right.
[56:49.640 --> 56:58.320]  But in other words, I'm paying a flat rate on the Bell Atlantic, so the regional calls are already paid for, yet they're showing up on my AT&T bill.
[56:58.320 --> 57:00.300]  Oh, you've got one of the regional flat rate plans.
[57:00.680 --> 57:06.620]  Well, what I would suggest is getting rid of the AT&T regional plan, because there's no way that can beat the Bell Atlantic slash 9x plan.
[57:06.880 --> 57:09.300]  The regional and long... it doesn't include long-distance, huh?
[57:09.840 --> 57:10.860]  Well, that's just it.
[57:10.900 --> 57:18.060]  They try to sucker you into accepting their regional plan by saying that you can only get good long-distance rates if you accept the regional as well.
[57:18.060 --> 57:23.740]  But the regional plan is more most times, 99 out of 100 times, than the local phone company.
[57:24.280 --> 57:30.480]  And also, you know, it's frustrating because you know how you can dial 700-555-4141 to find out what your long-distance company is?
[57:30.520 --> 57:34.140]  There is no corresponding number to call to find out what your regional company is.
[57:34.240 --> 57:36.320]  And I think that's something we need to get soon.
[57:36.520 --> 57:37.380]  All right, we're out of time.
[57:37.980 --> 57:43.380]  We'll be back again next week with updates on the latest consumer scams and, of course, the latest in the Kevin Mitnick case.
[57:43.880 --> 57:45.540]  Hopefully, nothing more can happen to him.
[57:45.640 --> 57:46.480]  You'll feel better there again.
[57:46.800 --> 57:47.760]  Yeah, we'll see.
[57:48.580 --> 57:49.660]  This is Emmanuel for Isaac.
[57:49.920 --> 57:50.600]  Have a good night.
[57:52.240 --> 58:13.900]  The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a call It could be yet much worse But if they could, they would Bumbin' it bump But the best expect the worst I hope that's understood Bumbin' it bump
[59:01.540 --> 59:16.380]  Every Wednesday at 9pm You won't want to miss Asia Pacific Forum The only place you'll hear about grassroots Asian politics Culture, art, and the Asian spirit.
[59:16.380 --> 59:22.400]  Only on WBAI 99.5 FM Pacifica Radio.
[59:33.940 --> 59:38.200]  Asia Pacific Forum, every Wednesdays at 9pm.
[59:38.200 --> 59:41.500]  Only on 99.5 FM.
[59:43.420 --> 59:46.360]  If you and I, we choose the same means of it.
[59:46.400 --> 59:48.880]  They're trading our living hours for shelter.
[59:50.280 --> 59:54.820]  This is WBAI 99.5 FM in New York.
[59:55.000 --> 59:56.860]  Stay tuned for Tahrir.