[00:01.070 --> 00:02.690]  He's pretty much an enemy.
[00:03.290 --> 00:04.190]  I'm not sure.
[00:04.390 --> 00:05.910]  I don't know that much.
[00:06.090 --> 00:13.630]  I know a lot of the people who left the military and went into some of those agencies, and I would characterize most of them as willing to.
[00:16.700 --> 00:22.770]  Once I built a railroad, I made it run.
[00:27.150 --> 00:30.450]  I made it race against time.
[00:31.870 --> 00:32.890]  Facing the future.
[00:33.210 --> 00:34.010]  Join E.L.
[00:34.110 --> 00:38.770]  Dr. O., Michio Kaku, and David Goodman, for an evening of musings on the millennium.
[00:39.010 --> 00:40.010]  I'm Amy Goodman.
[00:40.210 --> 00:41.490]  I'll be hosting the event.
[00:42.230 --> 00:47.150]  Dr. O., author of Ragtime and the Book of Daniel, will discuss the politics of God.
[00:47.350 --> 00:51.990]  David Goodman will deal with South Africa's effort to confront the past, to move into the future.
[00:52.230 --> 00:58.350]  And physicist Michio Kaku will talk about how science will revolutionize the 21st century.
[00:58.630 --> 01:06.890]  That's November 4th at 6.30 at the State University of New York at Stony Brook, the Student Activity Center Auditorium.
[01:07.050 --> 01:13.190]  For more information, call 516-632-7002.
[01:13.370 --> 01:18.290]  That's 516-632-7002.
[01:18.490 --> 01:25.310]  The event will be in honor of my father, George Goodman, who died last year, but who believed in looking to the future.
[01:25.430 --> 01:26.990]  Look forward to seeing you.
[01:33.760 --> 01:36.080]  And the time is just about 8 o'clock.
[01:36.520 --> 01:38.960]  You're in tune with WBAI in New York.
[01:38.960 --> 01:41.120]  It's time now for Off the Hook.
[01:47.370 --> 02:09.330]  The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a cough It couldn't get much worse But if they could, they would Bum-dilly-bump But the best expect the worst I hope that's understood Bum-dilly-bump!
[02:46.640 --> 02:47.900]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:47.900 --> 02:48.960]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:49.080 --> 02:58.720]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you for the next hour talking about high technology, computer hackers, privacy issues, and all the other fun things that we focus upon every week at this time.
[03:01.300 --> 03:04.880]  And yes, there's something that we're going to be focusing on this week.
[03:07.020 --> 03:08.900]  You knew I couldn't resist playing this.
[03:08.900 --> 03:10.900]  It's just so...
[03:11.600 --> 03:12.560]  How do you say?
[03:15.500 --> 03:16.020]  Apropos.
[03:17.280 --> 03:18.420]  Yeah, that's the word.
[03:19.200 --> 03:19.720]  Stay tuned.
[03:19.880 --> 03:20.540]  We'll be right back.
[03:21.600 --> 03:58.120]  Hi, I'm your video DJ I always talk like I'm way down on planes I wear a soft baseball jacket everywhere I go My job Is to help destroy what's left Of your imagination By feeding you Endless doses of sugar-cold Bitless garbage So don't create Be sedate Be a great school at home And whack on that dial If we have our way Even you will believe Less than the future Of rock and roll
[04:37.060 --> 04:37.170]  We'll be right back.
[05:33.270 --> 05:45.770]  And so it was, our beloved corporate gods, claimed they created rock video, allowing it to sink as low in one year as commercial TV has in 25.
[05:47.130 --> 05:49.570]  It's the new frontier, they say.
[05:50.090 --> 05:51.250]  It's wide open.
[05:51.390 --> 05:52.530]  Anything can happen.
[05:53.110 --> 05:59.690]  But you've got a lot of nerve to call yourself a pioneer when you're too goddamn conservative to take real chances.
[05:59.810 --> 06:05.950]  Ten-eared, rock-paper-brained, accountants instead of music fans.
[06:06.810 --> 06:09.870]  Oh, oh, the shots to giant record companies now.
[06:10.090 --> 06:12.210]  The lowest comedy nominator rule.
[06:13.650 --> 06:14.890]  Forget honesty.
[06:15.430 --> 06:16.470]  Forget creativity.
[06:16.890 --> 06:19.250]  The thumbs up by the most is that's the name of the game.
[06:19.770 --> 06:23.390]  But still, those are slumping, and no one will say why.
[06:23.630 --> 06:28.030]  Could it be they put out one too many lousy records?
[06:30.250 --> 06:32.450]  MTV, get up together, now!
[06:34.190 --> 06:43.250]  Yeah, okay, that's the Dead Kennedys there, with something that I think a lot of people have been saying over the last couple of weeks.
[06:43.590 --> 06:44.490]  Is it a couple of weeks?
[06:44.530 --> 06:51.910]  Yeah, it's about two weeks now since the, I guess, long-anticipated Hacker special on...
[06:51.910 --> 06:54.690]  Actually, MTV special on Hackers aired.
[06:55.110 --> 06:58.110]  It's funny, that song was written just because of their lousy videos.
[06:58.730 --> 07:03.450]  They've expanded into lousy game shows and lousy documentaries and lousy all kinds of things.
[07:03.950 --> 07:05.470]  Boy, we're going to be talking about that tonight.
[07:05.910 --> 07:09.690]  Taking your feedback, if you saw this show, obviously you know what my feelings are on it.
[07:10.270 --> 07:14.870]  And if you don't know what my feelings are on it, you can certainly read my long diatribe on the web.
[07:15.670 --> 07:16.410]  Isaac's here, Isaac.
[07:16.710 --> 07:17.130]  Yeah, hello.
[07:17.650 --> 07:19.250]  Do you read my long diatribe on the web?
[07:19.250 --> 07:20.290]  I read your long diatribe.
[07:20.450 --> 07:21.350]  I just couldn't stop.
[07:21.630 --> 07:27.530]  I just kept typing away and it just, you know, the night became day and day became night and it just, there were so many things.
[07:27.630 --> 07:28.670]  It was only a half hour, too.
[07:29.030 --> 07:30.350]  On the seventh day, he rested.
[07:30.930 --> 07:33.090]  No, actually, I did more things then.
[07:34.830 --> 07:37.610]  But, yeah, well, you saw the piece.
[07:37.850 --> 07:38.510]  Yeah, I saw it.
[07:38.590 --> 07:42.270]  I don't watch MTV, but I get all my musical education right here.
[07:42.410 --> 07:44.670]  For instance, I never heard that Dead Kennedys thing before.
[07:44.850 --> 07:48.490]  Yeah, it's quite an education in Dead Kennedys, so I'll say that right now.
[07:48.490 --> 07:51.350]  That song came out back in the early 80s, was it?
[07:52.330 --> 07:53.890]  And it's more appropriate today.
[07:53.890 --> 07:55.170]  Back when MTV got on the air?
[07:55.230 --> 07:57.950]  Yeah, I think it was only a year after they were on the air, too, that that song was heard.
[07:58.090 --> 08:00.350]  So, talk about looking to the future.
[08:01.370 --> 08:05.970]  But, so, despite the fact that you don't watch MTV, you did watch this.
[08:06.070 --> 08:06.790]  Well, I don't even have cable.
[08:07.010 --> 08:09.430]  I went out to my folks' place and made a weekend out of it.
[08:09.570 --> 08:09.890]  I'm on.
[08:10.170 --> 08:12.450]  Okay, well, it brought families together, then.
[08:12.530 --> 08:13.490]  That's a good thing.
[08:13.610 --> 08:14.190]  Something like that.
[08:14.190 --> 08:17.930]  But, that's the extent of the goodness, I think, that came out of this particular...
[08:17.930 --> 08:19.830]  Well, maybe you have a different opinion on it.
[08:19.870 --> 08:20.770]  We haven't talked about this yet.
[08:20.910 --> 08:29.510]  So, we've been anticipating this, and I know you were erring on the side of caution, saying, you know, these people mean well, I believe is what you said.
[08:29.570 --> 08:29.590]  Well, they do.
[08:29.870 --> 08:30.010]  Yeah.
[08:30.150 --> 08:30.510]  They did.
[08:31.170 --> 08:32.690]  I heard present tense in there.
[08:33.350 --> 08:37.870]  Why don't you kind of extrapolate on your opinion there.
[08:37.950 --> 08:38.450]  My opinion?
[08:38.510 --> 08:41.510]  We'll get into my opinion afterwards, and we'll get into caller's opinions in a few minutes.
[08:41.690 --> 08:52.530]  Well, my opinion regarding the show itself was that it was something of a less than accurate portrayal of what it is to be a real hacker.
[08:52.530 --> 09:03.410]  It was definitely the sensationalized, you know, piping the stereotypical hacker of the, you know, the, well, I could bring down the whole system in, like, 20 minutes kind of thing.
[09:03.750 --> 09:08.310]  Well, that was only the beginning of the show, where they had people saying, yeah, it's like being God.
[09:08.550 --> 09:12.230]  It's, you know, and, you know, they made, you can tell they fed people these lines.
[09:12.230 --> 09:17.910]  Well, if I could take all of the electric, you know, offline in New York City, do you think I would do that?
[09:17.990 --> 09:21.590]  You know, obviously, they asked the person, would you do that if you could?
[09:21.750 --> 09:21.970]  Right.
[09:22.530 --> 09:29.050]  Somebody's going around saying that they have the password to take down the entire electrical grid of New York City, but that's the image they want to convey.
[09:29.250 --> 09:32.590]  So they went in this thing, you know, with their answers already written.
[09:33.550 --> 09:34.170]  True enough.
[09:34.350 --> 09:34.490]  Yeah.
[09:35.010 --> 09:39.790]  But, uh, the product was what the product was.
[09:40.210 --> 09:42.430]  Well, the product was what I think we were fearing.
[09:42.630 --> 09:42.810]  Yes.
[09:42.930 --> 09:46.710]  And what Tommy was calling in to warn us about over the last couple of months.
[09:46.910 --> 09:52.390]  Well, again, uh, my impression of the people involved was higher.
[09:52.530 --> 09:54.770]  Than, uh, what was actually on the air.
[09:55.250 --> 10:02.070]  Uh, I actually rather enjoyed the brief chats we had with, uh, Serena and company.
[10:02.150 --> 10:03.330]  Oh, yeah, they were, they were lovely.
[10:03.570 --> 10:13.390]  But the point is, you know, we were doing that for, for, I assumed it was a reason, you know, that they were filming us, not just to, like, test out their camera skills, but actually do something for the show.
[10:13.390 --> 10:18.030]  But it turns out, and, and I've, I've heard this from many different people, they didn't really have an interest in that.
[10:18.170 --> 10:19.690]  They were interested in, in portraying...
[10:19.690 --> 10:20.630]  In hyping the stereotype.
[10:20.970 --> 10:22.410]  Or, or making their own stereotype.
[10:22.670 --> 10:22.730]  I don't...
[10:22.730 --> 10:23.370]  There was this one part.
[10:23.450 --> 10:27.950]  There was this one part where, where one of the kids was, was saying how he didn't fit the stereotype of the hacker.
[10:27.950 --> 10:40.910]  And it just, it made me laugh, because, because, you know, their stereotype is, you know, a big fat kid that never goes out, but MTV's stereotype of a hacker is this, you know, hip kid, uh, you know, hip hop, or whatever you want to call it, just, you know,
[10:41.070 --> 10:45.570]  walking around being fashionable and, and riding rollerblades, or whatever it is you want to say this week.
[10:46.130 --> 10:49.670]  And, and that's what they're trying to, to, to market, I guess.
[10:49.670 --> 10:54.830]  Well, that's what MTV does market, which is why the show appeared in its present context.
[10:54.830 --> 11:08.670]  I, I think that the people who were doing the show were interested in putting, uh, interviews like ours on the air, but that it just didn't fit in with the rest of the, the content programming, and they were kind of warned against that, and said, well,
[11:08.750 --> 11:10.890]  you're going to have to change this, or it's not going to see the light of day.
[11:11.010 --> 11:13.670]  Well, now, how come the facts don't fit in?
[11:13.750 --> 11:14.830]  That's, that's what I don't get here.
[11:15.090 --> 11:16.710]  What they made was complete fiction.
[11:16.890 --> 11:18.210]  It was complete fiction with all the things.
[11:18.410 --> 11:22.830]  First of all, every single fact that was presented in this show was not backed up.
[11:22.830 --> 11:31.550]  People were saying how, I think, one of the kids was, uh, was basically given the credit of being able to look at anything in a database about you.
[11:31.750 --> 11:41.570]  Now, there was not a single smidgen of proof ever given, or evidence, or any kind of demonstration that this person could actually do anything, but that was how he was labeled.
[11:41.790 --> 11:41.970]  Correct.
[11:42.110 --> 11:46.010]  But the object of this show was to hype a stereotype that they were trying to push.
[11:46.630 --> 11:48.410]  That's what MTV is interested in doing.
[11:48.430 --> 11:49.150]  Yeah, but it's yellow journalism.
[11:49.150 --> 11:51.950]  It's, it's, it's putting something out without explaining it.
[11:52.090 --> 11:55.470]  It's, it's saying things that are not true, not backing it up in any way.
[11:55.930 --> 11:58.550]  Just, yeah, spreading a stereotype, but, uh...
[11:58.550 --> 12:06.910]  Well, if somebody with a LexisNexis account could have access to the interesting, uh, things you were talking about, did this individual have LexisNexis access?
[12:06.910 --> 12:09.210]  There was no indication this person even knew what LexisNexis was.
[12:09.210 --> 12:09.910]  Understood.
[12:10.350 --> 12:16.810]  But the, the, the point is, there, there's, uh, you're looking at the facts that were presented in, in the show.
[12:17.150 --> 12:20.370]  It is possible for somebody to have that degree of access to databases.
[12:20.630 --> 12:22.350]  Well, that's true, but you'd never know by watching this show.
[12:22.470 --> 12:27.610]  You'd know that people walk around in slow motion looking like drug dealers, and, and that somehow is the hacker world according to MTV.
[12:28.130 --> 12:29.170]  It's, it's insulting.
[12:29.430 --> 12:30.610]  I mean, it's, it's, it's horrible.
[12:30.610 --> 12:33.710]  It's, it is, uh, a bit insulting, I will grant you that.
[12:33.710 --> 12:35.430]  And, you know, I, I, I really think that...
[12:35.430 --> 12:38.270]  But I, I'm not personally offended because, well, thankfully I didn't...
[12:38.270 --> 12:39.330]  I didn't use any of your footage.
[12:39.490 --> 12:40.590]  Yeah, thankfully I didn't appear.
[12:40.930 --> 12:48.990]  And I'll, I'll tell you this, Kevin was very happy that, uh, his footage was not, well, there wasn't any footage of his, but, you know, there was, there was lots of talk of Kevin and none of that was used.
[12:49.050 --> 12:50.690]  Not a single mention of Kevin Mitnick.
[12:51.050 --> 12:57.030]  But, you know, looking back at how horrible this thing was, it's a good thing, because why be affiliated with something like this?
[12:57.270 --> 13:00.490]  Well, again, I'm not personally offended because they were pushing a stereotype.
[13:00.610 --> 13:05.010]  And I do not know anybody who fits the stereotype that MTV was trying to push.
[13:05.390 --> 13:11.470]  I tend to think I'm somewhat active in the hacking community, if you want to call it that.
[13:11.750 --> 13:15.790]  And I honestly cannot say that I know a single person who fits that.
[13:16.170 --> 13:20.330]  So they were doing this wonderful piece of fiction for people who genuinely don't care.
[13:20.850 --> 13:22.930]  I mean, these are people who are watching MTV.
[13:22.930 --> 13:27.470]  It's going to be the fad for the next week or two to be a hacker, and then it's going to turn into whatever the next documentary is.
[13:27.470 --> 13:37.030]  You see, every time somebody comes out with this ridiculous stereotype that doesn't really exist, we get these swarms of kitties coming from all over the world, thinking that that's what it's all about, and trying to emulate it.
[13:37.150 --> 13:38.450]  And it's bad for everybody.
[13:38.590 --> 13:42.950]  And then two weeks from now, they're going to try and emulate whatever new hip-hop band is going to be out.
[13:43.650 --> 13:45.530]  Well, it doesn't exactly go away that quickly.
[13:45.690 --> 13:48.170]  I mean, people tend to stick with this a while.
[13:48.250 --> 13:52.170]  We still get, you know, mail from at least three different zero-cools every week, you know.
[13:52.270 --> 13:54.730]  I see it just as well as you do.
[13:54.730 --> 13:59.270]  But, I mean, those are the kind of people you will never hear from again, too.
[13:59.770 --> 14:07.410]  I've responded to a couple of them, and they just, like, disappear after a while because I say something intelligent, and, you know, God forbid, I suggest they read a particular...
[14:07.410 --> 14:08.650]  I think you scare them away, too.
[14:08.650 --> 14:10.170]  Well, yeah, I'm a very frightening person.
[14:10.370 --> 14:13.170]  But I say, well, why don't you find this and read it?
[14:13.310 --> 14:14.730]  At which point they say, well, where is it?
[14:14.790 --> 14:16.250]  I'm like, well, you can find it.
[14:16.390 --> 14:17.730]  This is a search engine.
[14:17.870 --> 14:20.990]  Well, suggesting people actually read something does frighten them away lots of times.
[14:20.990 --> 14:30.850]  Right, and they realize, even in the brief contact, that, you know, gee, this isn't just I'm a cool guy sitting at a computer and I can, like, turn traffic lights on and off.
[14:30.950 --> 14:37.670]  It actually involves an interest and a desire to learn about the technology and to do interesting things with it.
[14:37.750 --> 14:40.630]  But there's a price to be paid in the actual education of yourself.
[14:40.810 --> 14:42.050]  You know what the funny part was?
[14:42.050 --> 14:46.170]  I don't know if you've been reading up on this, but one of the kids actually said that it was all a lie.
[14:46.270 --> 14:47.770]  The stuff that he was saying was all a lie.
[14:47.770 --> 14:49.790]  Oh, yeah, it was in HackerNews.com.
[14:49.930 --> 14:52.830]  Yeah, and it's really...
[14:52.830 --> 14:55.810]  It wasn't a lie so much as it was an act.
[14:56.090 --> 14:56.830]  It was an act.
[14:56.830 --> 14:59.450]  But, you know, I feel two ways about this.
[14:59.570 --> 15:05.250]  It's funny, MTV got exactly what they deserved, made to look like total idiots for believing somebody without asking for any evidence.
[15:05.390 --> 15:10.930]  I don't think they look like total idiots because, if anything, it just reinforced the image they were trying to put.
[15:10.930 --> 15:22.790]  Well, that's the other half because, yeah, it's a stupid thing to do because it basically to the vast majority of people, it comes off as the truth because it looks like the truth.
[15:22.990 --> 15:24.430]  There's no evidence to suggest that it is.
[15:24.550 --> 15:27.270]  But, you know, seeing it on TV is enough proof for most people.
[15:27.570 --> 15:33.510]  So while this person may have had his own private little joke with MTV, it really did a lot more damage.
[15:33.670 --> 15:33.910]  Yeah.
[15:33.910 --> 15:35.610]  And that's unfortunate.
[15:35.790 --> 15:46.690]  Well, if it's one thing I've learned, we are our own worst enemies with all of the, you know, really lame web page hacks that go up every once in a while with, you know, all the fours for As and the Zs for Ss and everything.
[15:46.990 --> 15:47.330]  Mm-hmm.
[15:49.210 --> 15:56.690]  We do more to push the stereotype we're trying to get rid of than trying to fight it.
[15:56.830 --> 15:57.490]  It's somewhat ironic.
[15:57.510 --> 15:59.610]  You don't have to say we because here's the thing.
[15:59.770 --> 15:59.910]  Okay.
[15:59.910 --> 16:04.310]  Everybody that wants to say they're a hacker, according to MTV, is a hacker.
[16:04.630 --> 16:05.870]  I will grant you that.
[16:05.950 --> 16:08.350]  So anybody can hack a web page pretty easily.
[16:08.470 --> 16:15.890]  But the point that's lost on most people, including a lot of hackers, is that you don't have to be a hacker to alter a web page.
[16:16.090 --> 16:17.150]  It's so simple.
[16:17.290 --> 16:20.810]  And that's the thing that people need to realize how simple it is.
[16:20.850 --> 16:21.710]  That's kind of what I was getting at.
[16:21.830 --> 16:22.690]  I'm just not very articulate.
[16:22.950 --> 16:29.450]  And it's also, you should take that into consideration when you try to consider the punishment for such an act.
[16:29.990 --> 16:32.430]  Because we're basically talking about somebody copying a file.
[16:32.550 --> 16:34.950]  And is that something that you go to prison for five years for?
[16:35.130 --> 16:35.550]  I don't know.
[16:35.670 --> 16:36.250]  I don't think so.
[16:36.910 --> 16:38.810]  But people see a hacked web page.
[16:38.890 --> 16:42.350]  They think it's something a lot more elaborate, complex, and conspiracy-wise.
[16:42.570 --> 16:46.410]  And, you know, what we need to do is get the word out as to what's really going on.
[16:47.190 --> 16:51.170]  And that's something that we, I think, were set back a century to Wednesdays ago.
[16:51.310 --> 16:53.190]  The problem is that people genuinely don't care.
[16:53.310 --> 16:59.510]  It's much more exciting to see one of those documentaries that was shown on MTV, which is one of the reasons why it was produced that way.
[16:59.730 --> 17:16.710]  And I think it's unfortunate that whatever the producers or the suits or anybody who was trying to push the MTV image forced the people who were actually working on it to produce something like that instead of taking the more reasonable footage that they got of us and of a couple Well,
[17:16.830 --> 17:17.590]  I'd like to know this.
[17:17.710 --> 17:30.150]  I mean, what's the harm in telling us now how much they were forced to change the original slant of the thing, the original focus of what the documentary was supposed to be about, namely Kevin Mitnick, The Hacker World?
[17:30.390 --> 17:31.910]  I don't know if it was about Kevin Mitnick.
[17:32.090 --> 17:33.730]  Well, that's how it was explained to me.
[17:33.730 --> 17:35.190]  They wanted to do a Kevin Mitnick piece.
[17:35.310 --> 17:36.350]  I've got email backing that up.
[17:36.350 --> 17:42.570]  Yes, well, I would... I think that it was supposed to be on hackers and one of the big current events things...
[17:42.570 --> 17:43.650]  It was the major...
[17:43.650 --> 17:44.550]  ...was Kevin Mitnick.
[17:44.550 --> 17:45.350]  ...and it still is.
[17:45.430 --> 17:49.690]  The major focal point of The Hacker World right now is the Kevin Mitnick case.
[17:50.710 --> 17:51.810]  All right, what is it then?
[17:51.810 --> 17:52.030]  I'd argue that.
[17:52.050 --> 17:52.530]  What is it then?
[17:52.530 --> 17:53.170]  I don't think we have a focal point.
[17:53.170 --> 17:54.250]  Who's more elite than who?
[17:54.910 --> 17:55.710]  I mean...
[17:55.710 --> 17:58.010]  That's never even been in consideration.
[17:58.470 --> 18:00.170]  I mean, there's a lot of interesting things going on.
[18:00.250 --> 18:01.250]  Kevin Mitnick is one of them.
[18:01.490 --> 18:01.710]  Mm-hmm.
[18:01.990 --> 18:05.090]  It happens to be a fairly important one because it sets precedents...
[18:05.090 --> 18:09.430]  I agree there are a lot of important things going on, but I think that is the leader right now.
[18:09.910 --> 18:13.150]  If there's something else, you know, I don't know what exceeds that.
[18:13.250 --> 18:20.190]  I mean, yeah, things like, you know, encryption and things like that, yeah, obviously those are constants, but that encompasses more than just the hacker community.
[18:20.310 --> 18:25.370]  The hacker community, I think, focuses on things that involve hackers going to prison for ridiculous crimes.
[18:25.470 --> 18:31.150]  Well, hackers are a very broad label to be put on a lot of enthusiasts and a lot of...
[18:31.150 --> 18:34.730]  Considering anybody is a hacker who says they're a hacker, according to certain media people.
[18:34.910 --> 18:35.710]  Yeah, I guess that is true.
[18:36.730 --> 18:43.810]  But in any event, that is how they originally pitched the thing to me, that it was going to be focusing on Kevin.
[18:43.990 --> 18:53.370]  And, you know, even if that changed over time, you'd expect, you know, a sentence maybe, you know, or a free Kevin sticker someplace.
[18:53.730 --> 18:55.070]  But it's just completely, you know...
[18:55.070 --> 18:56.030]  Well, would you have preferred...
[18:56.030 --> 18:56.930]  Revisionist history.
[18:57.130 --> 19:00.330]  Would you have preferred a free Kevin sticker in the show that you saw?
[19:00.490 --> 19:02.010]  Well, no, but that's a separate issue.
[19:02.010 --> 19:02.650]  That's a separate issue.
[19:02.790 --> 19:04.230]  Obviously, I'm happy...
[19:04.230 --> 19:06.450]  I'm just as happy not to have any affiliation with that.
[19:06.610 --> 19:13.590]  But, even though they did give me a big thank you, which I didn't really appreciate, you notice they thanked David Schindler, too, who was the prosecutor of Kevin Midnight.
[19:13.690 --> 19:14.670]  Why did they thank him?
[19:14.950 --> 19:17.190]  Well, he probably did an interview with him.
[19:17.190 --> 19:20.730]  They did an interview with this guy who doesn't do interviews, and they didn't air it.
[19:21.070 --> 19:22.290]  What a bunch of boneheads.
[19:22.410 --> 19:23.070]  I mean, come on.
[19:23.170 --> 19:23.490]  This is...
[19:23.490 --> 19:26.370]  That's a major thing right there, that he actually gave them an interview.
[19:26.730 --> 19:28.930]  Well, they thanked him for his participation in the project.
[19:29.690 --> 19:41.030]  Again, I think that the goal of the people who were working on it was genuine in the interest of trying to promote what hackers really are about.
[19:41.230 --> 19:45.410]  Well, then they must have gotten hit on the head somewhere, because it was not what hackers were about in any sense.
[19:45.450 --> 19:55.030]  At some point down the line, the thing that they were working on was changed by, I would tend to believe, an outside party who was pressuring them to produce something that would fit more with the MTV genre.
[19:55.130 --> 20:00.190]  Right, but what kind of integrity do you have when you change the facts and make something that is not true?
[20:00.190 --> 20:02.410]  And you don't investigate your sources.
[20:02.650 --> 20:05.490]  You just say sensationalist Toronto-type things.
[20:05.510 --> 20:05.770]  Hold on.
[20:05.850 --> 20:07.050]  They investigated their sources.
[20:07.210 --> 20:11.830]  They had John Vrensnevenevinovich, or whoever his name is, on.
[20:12.090 --> 20:13.550]  So, you know, he was the technical consultant for that.
[20:13.550 --> 20:14.010]  Oh, the guy's man's eye on mine.
[20:14.170 --> 20:16.130]  Yeah, that's really accurate there.
[20:16.130 --> 20:16.470]  That's...
[20:16.470 --> 20:17.310]  I'm sorry.
[20:17.750 --> 20:18.770]  You need, you know...
[20:18.770 --> 20:19.030]  I'm sorry.
[20:19.590 --> 20:20.730]  You need a little better...
[20:20.730 --> 20:21.770]  I'm allowing a little sarcasm every once in a while.
[20:22.010 --> 20:27.370]  And even if, you know, you're talking to the most reliable source in the world, you get more than one source.
[20:27.470 --> 20:29.330]  You don't have one person telling you all these things.
[20:29.330 --> 20:30.570]  Which they had.
[20:31.670 --> 20:32.330]  My impression...
[20:32.330 --> 20:33.070]  Who was the other person?
[20:33.330 --> 20:34.490]  They talked to us.
[20:34.730 --> 20:35.810]  They talked to the loft.
[20:36.170 --> 20:37.510]  Unfortunately, the loft was like...
[20:37.510 --> 20:41.630]  The loft, that was the only good part of the entire thing.
[20:41.670 --> 20:43.750]  And of course, it only lasted 42 seconds.
[20:43.750 --> 20:51.630]  And they made them look like terrorists in those 42 seconds by focusing on the one comment that could be completely misread, namely that they could take down the internet in a few seconds.
[20:51.950 --> 20:52.250]  Oh, the congressional thing.
[20:52.410 --> 21:00.230]  Yeah, and had they explored that a little bit, they might understand what was really meant by that, not that they were some kind of threat to everybody's security.
[21:00.330 --> 21:00.770]  I understand.
[21:01.030 --> 21:05.450]  But in the beginning of this project, they were talking to all the right people.
[21:05.910 --> 21:07.770]  At some point down the line, it changed.
[21:08.150 --> 21:19.050]  And from my impression of speaking with Serena and speaking with those involved, I would tend to believe that there was some outside influence that kind of moved them to have to change this.
[21:19.230 --> 21:19.610]  Well...
[21:19.610 --> 21:20.290]  That's my personal...
[21:20.290 --> 21:22.930]  I have no idea what's going on, and I have no idea what had gone on.
[21:22.930 --> 21:25.670]  I think advice to people out there is to stick to your ideals.
[21:25.830 --> 21:33.810]  If you really believe in something, stay with it, and, you know, tell the people who advise you to change your focus to their focus to bugger off.
[21:33.810 --> 21:40.270]  And, you know, you might not get as much money for it, but at least you'll have some integrity.
[21:40.490 --> 21:41.050]  I don't know.
[21:41.210 --> 21:42.490]  I'd love to hear people's responses.
[21:42.610 --> 21:48.470]  Let's read some mail, and then we'll get right to the phones, because we haven't been on in three weeks, so we definitely want to hear from most people out there, anyway.
[21:49.430 --> 21:49.730]  Yeah.
[21:51.010 --> 21:51.730]  How about this?
[21:52.850 --> 22:02.770]  While channel surfing the other day, I came upon a television program on my turn-on sarcasm favorite, turn-off sarcasm, television station, MTV.
[22:03.670 --> 22:04.750]  It was real life.
[22:05.130 --> 22:06.630]  Actually, it was true life, wasn't it?
[22:07.170 --> 22:07.790]  I don't recall.
[22:07.950 --> 22:14.430]  You see, MTV has these ridiculous titles, The Real World True Life, and none of it is accurate.
[22:14.470 --> 22:16.790]  They're catering to a specific segment of the population.
[22:16.790 --> 22:17.550]  Yeah, morons.
[22:17.630 --> 22:18.190]  I realize that.
[22:18.190 --> 22:18.370]  Okay.
[22:18.370 --> 22:21.710]  And they're the ones that buy the most products, but, you know, the rest of us...
[22:21.710 --> 22:25.350]  ...should have some opportunity to speak out against it, and that's all I'm doing here.
[22:25.350 --> 22:27.270]  And we're doing that right now on this radio program.
[22:27.310 --> 22:27.610]  Yes.
[22:27.910 --> 22:29.970]  And what do you want?
[22:30.170 --> 22:32.470]  They're catering to a specific segment of the population.
[22:32.470 --> 22:32.910]  I want blood, Isaac.
[22:32.930 --> 22:34.010]  I want blood, all right?
[22:34.010 --> 22:36.050]  I'm sure most people out there want the same thing.
[22:36.410 --> 22:37.250]  We'll figure that out.
[22:37.290 --> 22:40.030]  Maybe we'll have a little teletrial after the show and figure out what we want to do next.
[22:40.030 --> 22:40.910]  I'm not looking for blood.
[22:41.630 --> 22:42.030]  All right.
[22:42.030 --> 22:44.090]  I'm personally not very offended, but continue, I'm sorry.
[22:44.230 --> 22:44.890]  You're not offended?
[22:45.410 --> 22:46.510]  No, I'm not offended.
[22:46.510 --> 22:48.170]  You saw that thing, and you're not offended.
[22:48.350 --> 22:49.930]  I saw that thing, and I said, I am not this.
[22:49.930 --> 22:54.070]  This does not reflect me, and it does not reflect the community which I'm a part of.
[22:54.170 --> 22:54.850]  Yeah, but they're saying...
[22:54.850 --> 22:55.810]  It's something completely separate.
[22:55.870 --> 22:57.890]  They're saying that you are a part of that community.
[22:58.130 --> 22:58.410]  When?
[22:58.790 --> 22:59.610]  They never said that.
[22:59.750 --> 23:00.810]  Well, that is the hacker world.
[23:00.890 --> 23:01.990]  You're in the hacker world, are you not?
[23:02.410 --> 23:04.250]  That is what they're trying to portray.
[23:04.510 --> 23:04.710]  Uh-huh.
[23:05.090 --> 23:05.730]  I honestly don't care.
[23:06.090 --> 23:10.430]  It wasn't a particular slant of the hacker world, you know, the...
[23:10.430 --> 23:14.910]  I honestly do not care about the opinion of your typical MTV viewer.
[23:15.390 --> 23:21.530]  The typical MTV viewer does not affect me whatsoever, save for possibly shuffling a burger across a counter for me.
[23:21.830 --> 23:22.570]  That's still not the point.
[23:22.690 --> 23:24.470]  The point isn't what the viewer...
[23:24.470 --> 23:26.070]  You know, lots of people see this thing.
[23:26.170 --> 23:27.430]  That's not really...
[23:27.430 --> 23:31.550]  You can't say what the viewer is, you know, exactly what kind of a person that is.
[23:31.630 --> 23:37.850]  The point is, there's people out there spreading this truth, and whether it's in the New York Times on MTV or the National Enquirer, you know, you should take offense.
[23:38.010 --> 23:39.550]  I mean, why do you think people sue the National Enquirer?
[23:39.690 --> 23:42.250]  Nobody cares about the people who read that piece of trash.
[23:42.250 --> 23:43.790]  Because they're specifically mentioned.
[23:44.190 --> 23:45.870]  Because they're specifically mentioned, correct.
[23:46.070 --> 23:57.190]  If I had an article about me in the National Enquirer that said I killed 20 people by, you know, shutting down an aircraft, air traffic control center, I would be suing the National Enquirer because they personally made an attack against me with a mistruth.
[23:57.190 --> 24:01.950]  By being part of the hacker community, as we are, we're being affiliated with this.
[24:02.250 --> 24:03.950]  But I don't recognize that as reality.
[24:04.850 --> 24:06.270]  Yeah, but you see, a lot of people do.
[24:06.490 --> 24:11.090]  I know you don't care about those people, but the fact of the matter is that this kind of thing is a bad thing.
[24:11.410 --> 24:13.510]  And you have to speak out against it.
[24:13.630 --> 24:19.370]  Well, if given the opportunity to educate those people as to what reality is about, I will, which is one of the reasons I'm here.
[24:19.510 --> 24:19.690]  Fine.
[24:20.410 --> 24:20.770]  All right.
[24:21.170 --> 24:22.170]  Let's continue this letter.
[24:22.210 --> 24:23.090]  We've been interrupted the letter.
[24:23.250 --> 24:23.570]  I'm sorry.
[24:28.210 --> 24:32.190]  All of us who were around when the movie Hackers came out saw the influx of idiots then.
[24:32.470 --> 24:33.650]  Now, think about this.
[24:33.950 --> 24:36.030]  All the jocks, hoochies...
[24:36.030 --> 24:36.570]  Hoochies?
[24:36.650 --> 24:37.110]  What is a hoochie?
[24:37.130 --> 24:37.450]  I don't know.
[24:38.130 --> 24:42.550]  Skaters, punks, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, who watch MTV saw this special.
[24:42.610 --> 24:43.770]  We have to worry about figure skaters?
[24:44.630 --> 24:46.450]  Not figure skaters, you...
[24:47.410 --> 24:56.630]  And since most, I did say most, not all, but most, are the ultimate posers, they are going to jump on the hacking bandwagon now, prepare for the idiots.
[24:57.510 --> 24:58.210]  Signed, hellbound.
[24:58.430 --> 25:04.970]  That's kind of the point I was trying to make, you know, that you're going to get all this influx of people that think that's reality, and...
[25:04.970 --> 25:09.330]  And it's not, and they become very quickly bored with it when they realize that it doesn't exist.
[25:09.450 --> 25:12.850]  Well, also, what you have to understand is that, you know, senators watch MTV.
[25:12.850 --> 25:13.390]  They do.
[25:13.870 --> 25:15.370]  And they see something like this.
[25:15.850 --> 25:22.370]  They see kids, you know, dealing drugs and doing all these, you know, spying on people, even though...
[25:22.370 --> 25:22.510]  Well, back up.
[25:22.610 --> 25:25.130]  When were they dealing drugs on MTV?
[25:25.190 --> 25:32.350]  There was lots of talk of one person being involved with drugs, was mentioned at least twice, and it just...
[25:32.350 --> 25:33.410]  Again, a non-reality.
[25:33.410 --> 25:37.390]  The look, but the look of it, if you watch the way they were filming it, it was cops.
[25:37.650 --> 25:39.690]  It was definitely a scene from cops.
[25:39.770 --> 25:43.110]  And they equated hackers with that kind of lifestyle.
[25:43.330 --> 25:44.510]  People are going to see that.
[25:44.510 --> 25:47.350]  People of influence will see that, and they'll act accordingly.
[25:47.850 --> 25:51.150]  And you'll see a lot more ill-conceived laws coming down the pike.
[25:51.170 --> 26:00.190]  Well, this is why those people who are active in the hacker community now should be contacting their senators and their representatives and saying, hey, listen, it's not like this.
[26:00.230 --> 26:01.190]  What are you guys doing?
[26:01.930 --> 26:07.530]  We seem to be very vocal among each other, but we're not very vocal in the government circles who are making the laws.
[26:07.730 --> 26:09.490]  You really think they're going to listen to us?
[26:09.650 --> 26:10.110]  Yes, I do.
[26:10.250 --> 26:11.370]  Well, they haven't been so far.
[26:11.610 --> 26:12.650]  Well, have we spoken to them?
[26:12.950 --> 26:13.930]  Do you remember when Bernie S.
[26:14.010 --> 26:14.370]  was in prison?
[26:14.450 --> 26:14.830]  How many times?
[26:15.050 --> 26:15.310]  I don't remember when Bernie S.
[26:15.370 --> 26:15.490]  was in prison.
[26:15.490 --> 26:16.770]  We were calling elected officials.
[26:16.910 --> 26:18.030]  It didn't do a whole lot of good.
[26:18.270 --> 26:20.510]  We were trying to get somebody out of prison.
[26:20.690 --> 26:20.910]  Right.
[26:21.050 --> 26:23.450]  We weren't influencing legislation that would have put in there.
[26:23.690 --> 26:24.370]  Well, we couldn't get...
[26:24.370 --> 26:25.370]  Actually, it was legislation.
[26:25.370 --> 26:29.150]  It was the digital telephony bill that got him in there in the first place.
[26:29.230 --> 26:29.310]  Right.
[26:29.310 --> 26:29.930]  But that's a whole other...
[26:29.930 --> 26:33.110]  But were we interested in fighting it when it was in the process of being passed?
[26:33.210 --> 26:33.570]  Of course.
[26:34.210 --> 26:34.490]  Yeah.
[26:34.790 --> 26:37.550]  Don't you remember when EFF sort of fell down on that one?
[26:37.670 --> 26:39.030]  Well, EFF...
[26:39.030 --> 26:40.510]  Everybody else was all pissed off at it.
[26:40.630 --> 26:41.090]  But continue.
[26:41.230 --> 26:42.190]  All right, let's continue with the letters.
[26:42.190 --> 26:44.270]  We'll just take some phone calls in just a moment.
[26:45.130 --> 26:53.330]  This person says, Despite the inaccuracies and some of the stereotypes they portray, I think we should be happy to at least have a show portraying hackers in a positive light.
[26:53.890 --> 26:56.130]  This guy must have hit his head really hard at night.
[26:56.390 --> 26:57.130]  Well, there was that one...
[26:57.130 --> 26:58.770]  What's the positive thing of this?
[26:58.790 --> 27:04.550]  There was that one scene in the end where the fellow was teaching a class on the web.
[27:04.570 --> 27:05.250]  Yeah, and you know what?
[27:05.250 --> 27:05.830]  That was kind of nice.
[27:05.970 --> 27:06.310]  Yeah, right.
[27:06.370 --> 27:07.490]  He was teaching a class.
[27:07.570 --> 27:08.490]  That was all fine and dandy.
[27:08.610 --> 27:11.890]  But then they get him to say that if he committed a crime, he'd know how to cover himself.
[27:12.350 --> 27:13.730]  Why did they have to say that?
[27:13.750 --> 27:13.890]  All right, that was bad.
[27:13.930 --> 27:14.730]  What's the point?
[27:15.070 --> 27:18.910]  You know, it's like this person isn't all good, obviously, even though he didn't do anything wrong.
[27:20.450 --> 27:21.370]  Stupid, stupid, stupid.
[27:21.610 --> 27:27.570]  Anyway, I mean, although it was pretty cheesy, you have to remember that a documentary by hackers for hackers would not go over at all on MTV.
[27:27.950 --> 27:28.130]  Correct.
[27:28.130 --> 27:28.810]  Why not?
[27:29.030 --> 27:29.770]  Why the hell not?
[27:29.770 --> 27:31.610]  Because it's reality and they're not interested in reality.
[27:31.630 --> 27:32.690]  Why are they not interested in reality?
[27:32.790 --> 27:34.470]  What is so bad about reality?
[27:34.610 --> 27:34.930]  Because they're trying to...
[27:34.930 --> 27:35.790]  I live in reality.
[27:35.990 --> 27:37.610]  You know, it's not that bad a place.
[27:37.730 --> 27:39.350]  Fantasy's cool, too, but reality, you know...
[27:39.350 --> 27:42.550]  They're trying to push a stereotype because it goes with their image.
[27:44.190 --> 27:47.110]  Well, why is their image the image that goes over?
[27:47.110 --> 27:51.950]  Their image is the world's most conformist, that's the hidden part, rebel.
[27:52.650 --> 27:53.050]  Okay?
[27:53.230 --> 28:00.190]  So you've got all these people who are thinking they're rebelling and yet at the very same time trying to conform with each and every one around them.
[28:00.430 --> 28:01.670]  So it's interesting.
[28:01.930 --> 28:05.090]  We could go on a whole venting spree on what MTV is about.
[28:05.150 --> 28:05.670]  We certainly can.
[28:06.850 --> 28:11.210]  Anyway, I think the hacker community has to be happy that some real media outlets are portraying it in a positive light.
[28:11.370 --> 28:13.370]  I don't agree with that at all.
[28:13.370 --> 28:17.790]  It's really a very negative portrayal.
[28:19.390 --> 28:22.170]  To Emanuel Goldstein, I read the article by the MTV Hacker Special.
[28:22.190 --> 28:23.210]  I agree with you 100%.
[28:23.210 --> 28:25.290]  I'm not a hacker, but I just have one question.
[28:25.710 --> 28:31.050]  I know how to download a file, but could you tell me how to download a full-length movie like The Matrix, and could you tell where to go to get it?
[28:31.350 --> 28:33.790]  Okay, now you see here, this is exactly what I'm talking about.
[28:34.110 --> 28:44.390]  They showed one scene in that little half hour of somebody watching The Matrix on their computer, and it was a big, amazing deal to them that someone could actually do this.
[28:44.510 --> 28:46.730]  Obviously, this is computer hacking at its most nefarious.
[28:47.170 --> 28:48.310]  Now, it's simple.
[28:48.510 --> 28:49.590]  You copy a file.
[28:49.730 --> 28:51.430]  It's available all over the place.
[28:51.530 --> 28:52.650]  Yeah, it's pirating.
[28:52.650 --> 28:53.550]  It's not legal.
[28:53.730 --> 28:58.170]  It's not the best thing to do to your Hollywood studios, but it's not a big deal either.
[28:58.170 --> 29:09.290]  The fact that they focused on it in the show, though, is indicative of the powers that be behind it, saying that this is really bad, stealing something that we should be selling you on a DVD.
[29:09.650 --> 29:12.090]  Why, you've got that movie before we released it.
[29:12.310 --> 29:14.130]  Oh, that's really evil.
[29:14.830 --> 29:24.610]  It's, you know, it shows the producer mentality behind there, saying that this has to be boxed, shrink-wrapped, and sold to you.
[29:24.690 --> 29:26.030]  You shouldn't be getting this off the net.
[29:26.170 --> 29:28.050]  Therefore, it is an evil thing for you to have it.
[29:28.830 --> 29:31.590]  And you see now, all the people are going to be asking, well, how do you download this?
[29:31.630 --> 29:33.830]  Because if that's what hacking is all about...
[29:33.830 --> 29:35.570]  Yeah, you go on IRC and ask.
[29:36.970 --> 29:37.330]  Okay.
[29:40.490 --> 29:41.330]  Thanks for the review.
[29:41.510 --> 29:42.290]  I was just waiting for that.
[29:42.410 --> 29:44.790]  That show sucked ass the size of Kenya.
[29:45.490 --> 29:46.930]  They have the brains of trout.
[29:48.390 --> 29:50.830]  Oh, I can't really argue with any of that.
[29:51.310 --> 29:52.610]  I've had very smart trout.
[29:53.390 --> 29:55.270]  Of course, I'm not a very good fisherman, so...
[29:55.270 --> 29:59.670]  I recently watched MTV's True Life I Am a Hacker episode, and I must say I am appalled.
[29:59.670 --> 30:04.830]  As far as hacking goes, I doubt the general public will ever see a true representation of the hacking community in the mainstream media.
[30:05.430 --> 30:10.650]  From what I have seen, a true hacker would not want to draw attention to himself if he is participating in disreputable activity.
[30:11.050 --> 30:17.070]  By the same token, a hacker who concentrates on procreative actions would not want to receive the stigma attached to the label.
[30:17.430 --> 30:20.050]  So where does this leave the hacking community?
[30:20.650 --> 30:28.210]  Well, it is my opinion that the focus should be placed on perfecting the craft and or educating others about it, and less time should be spent on practicing how to look hard.
[30:28.430 --> 30:28.790]  Correct.
[30:29.150 --> 30:29.450]  All right.
[30:30.330 --> 30:32.870]  And I believe that was from Jonathan.
[30:33.430 --> 30:34.630]  That's an email sent over.
[30:35.510 --> 30:36.530]  Good comments, John.
[30:36.790 --> 30:37.130]  Yes.
[30:38.650 --> 30:46.430]  Seeing as I live in Canada, I don't get MTV, but somehow I expected the sort of dross...
[30:46.430 --> 30:47.090]  Is that how you pronounce it?
[30:47.470 --> 30:48.470]  D-R-O-S-S?
[30:48.710 --> 30:49.010]  Dross?
[30:49.130 --> 30:49.390]  Dross?
[30:49.510 --> 30:49.810]  I don't know.
[30:49.910 --> 30:51.150]  It's not a word I use very often.
[30:51.150 --> 30:54.130]  They apparently portray it as true life.
[30:54.310 --> 30:59.050]  I can't thank you enough for providing a valid counterpoint to their overhyped media BS.
[30:59.530 --> 31:04.750]  On TLC a while back, there was a special on computer hackers, and it suffered from the same problems, though to a lesser degree.
[31:05.370 --> 31:11.270]  The thing that stuck in my mind most was a shot of a shadowed kid with a list of credit card numbers from V-Card or some similar program.
[31:11.450 --> 31:15.570]  They implied he had somehow hacked into a major bank and was some kind of criminal mastermind.
[31:16.290 --> 31:17.150]  But I digress.
[31:17.250 --> 31:21.330]  I hope you managed to get your counterpoint across, but I'm expecting to see a major wave of similar hype.
[31:21.790 --> 31:22.510]  That is true.
[31:23.310 --> 31:27.850]  We can bitch and moan all we want, but it really doesn't get to the right people.
[31:28.110 --> 31:31.430]  It doesn't get to the people that make up their minds because their minds are already made up.
[31:32.270 --> 31:33.610]  So, I don't know.
[31:33.630 --> 31:35.530]  We have to think of more imaginative ways to get their attention.
[31:38.150 --> 31:38.910]  Here's another letter.
[31:39.290 --> 31:42.690]  I just wanted to say that I totally agree with the article written about the MTV broadcast.
[31:42.990 --> 31:45.110]  Those people really messed up the reputation of hackers.
[31:45.710 --> 31:48.870]  Now people probably look at us as destructors, which were not.
[31:49.390 --> 31:50.470]  Thanks for your time reading this.
[31:50.550 --> 31:52.010]  I just had to voice my opinion on the article.
[31:52.170 --> 31:52.750]  It was really great.
[31:52.850 --> 31:54.570]  The show was, however, very disturbing to me.
[31:54.950 --> 31:57.870]  Like the article said, never was any proof shown that they could do all this.
[31:58.290 --> 32:00.850]  All I have to say is, let's see this proof.
[32:01.030 --> 32:04.010]  Well, you never will because it's probably not true in the first place.
[32:06.990 --> 32:07.870]  Here's another letter.
[32:08.070 --> 32:09.330]  I quite enjoy reading the review.
[32:09.550 --> 32:13.190]  By the way, if you want to read this review that everybody's enjoying, it's on the main page of 2600.
[32:14.230 --> 32:17.350]  But by all means, write your own reviews and tell us what you think as well.
[32:18.370 --> 32:28.210]  I thought I would like to say that the only way hackers are going to get any good publicity is if they get a one-hour show for a week on something like the Discovery Channel or the Learning Channel, which somebody else just said did a bad job.
[32:28.690 --> 32:32.510]  Maybe sci-fi, but that would probably end up getting the guys from sightings, which isn't bad.
[32:32.610 --> 32:34.350]  That wouldn't be viewed as credible by critics.
[32:35.110 --> 32:45.090]  Have some older hackers and young ones and some other professionals, but the one thing they forgot to mention is that the people running top software companies used to do some minor hacking, sometimes major hacking.
[32:47.030 --> 32:47.410]  Somewhere...
[32:47.410 --> 32:48.170]  I didn't mean to say that.
[32:48.490 --> 32:48.670]  No.
[32:48.690 --> 32:53.110]  Somewhere I read or saw that Steve Jobs and Bill Gates did some hacking.
[32:53.210 --> 32:53.910]  Bill Gates did hacking?
[32:54.290 --> 32:56.350]  Well, Bill Gates stole lots of software.
[32:56.570 --> 32:56.970]  That's stealing.
[32:57.170 --> 32:58.550]  He should have been on his special, I guess.
[32:58.710 --> 32:58.830]  Exactly.
[32:59.430 --> 33:00.770]  It's the MTV-style hacking.
[33:01.210 --> 33:03.910]  One thing they can't really do is that...
[33:05.230 --> 33:07.890]  Well, this sort of rambles into weirdness here.
[33:07.970 --> 33:10.910]  I can't really make out what they're trying to say, but that's the gist of that letter.
[33:13.030 --> 33:15.170]  Let's get one or two more and then we'll take some phone calls.
[33:15.290 --> 33:19.470]  212-209-2900 is our phone number here at Off The Hook.
[33:20.190 --> 33:23.050]  In reply to the article about MTV, I say screw them.
[33:23.150 --> 33:26.670]  Why doesn't 2600 make their own show in real player, not just an audio show?
[33:26.870 --> 33:27.050]  Ooh.
[33:27.590 --> 33:33.890]  Those of us who come to the 2600 website are the ones who watch the programs on TV and hope to see something interesting and informational.
[33:33.890 --> 33:34.910]  So why not do it yourselves?
[33:35.230 --> 33:37.170]  If you want something done right, you've got to do it yourself.
[33:37.330 --> 33:38.650]  Well, here's the thing.
[33:38.870 --> 33:39.910]  We are doing it ourselves.
[33:39.910 --> 33:40.890]  We're doing this ourselves.
[33:40.890 --> 33:42.310]  It's another form of reaching out.
[33:42.550 --> 33:43.570]  We're doing radio.
[33:43.750 --> 33:48.790]  Radio, I think, is a lot more accessible than people clicking on real player and watching.
[33:48.910 --> 33:50.190]  Plus, there's nothing really to see here.
[33:50.290 --> 33:50.770]  I mean, come on.
[33:50.910 --> 33:53.550]  It's not a visually oriented show.
[33:53.570 --> 33:54.630]  We're very impressive individuals.
[33:54.790 --> 33:55.090]  Well, yeah.
[33:55.290 --> 33:55.650]  There's that.
[33:55.730 --> 33:59.450]  We could probably have still frames released of us if there's demand for that.
[33:59.590 --> 34:05.170]  But as far as the actual visual content, I think that's another type of a show.
[34:05.170 --> 34:08.210]  So this kind of a show is a radio show and that's just what it is.
[34:08.370 --> 34:09.230]  I prefer this format.
[34:09.410 --> 34:09.910]  Yeah, I do too.
[34:10.250 --> 34:17.070]  Of course, if you really need the visual thing, I think we should release those stills and you could make instructions for sock puppets and you can have your own little...
[34:17.070 --> 34:17.510]  There you go.
[34:17.830 --> 34:18.470]  There you go.
[34:19.050 --> 34:20.110]  I was just surfing.
[34:20.250 --> 34:24.070]  I went to your guy's site and fell upon the article on the MTV program on hackers.
[34:25.430 --> 34:27.430]  I did watch, but I thought it was full of crap.
[34:27.630 --> 34:30.090]  I thank you for putting how you felt out there.
[34:32.250 --> 34:35.770]  I watched the show to maybe see something about Kevin but was really disappointed.
[34:35.770 --> 34:37.430]  I'm a novice hacker who is still learning.
[34:38.610 --> 34:46.410]  And a lot of people did expect to see something on Kevin there, which I guess was a disappointment, but in some ways a good thing.
[34:48.390 --> 34:49.870]  Let's read one more letter.
[34:51.230 --> 34:52.130]  I agree completely.
[34:52.130 --> 34:54.010]  The show was fake except for the loft section.
[34:54.070 --> 34:58.010]  When the court asked them if they could crash the internet in a day and they said actually just one of us could.
[34:58.130 --> 34:59.370]  That was a kick-ass statement to make.
[34:59.510 --> 35:01.090]  Well, that was Congress, but...
[35:01.090 --> 35:01.390]  Yeah.
[35:01.830 --> 35:03.510]  Actually, there is one more letter I wanted to read.
[35:03.690 --> 35:07.010]  This is from somebody that claims to be involved.
[35:09.150 --> 35:11.930]  This message is in response to the evaluation of True Life.
[35:12.190 --> 35:12.950]  I am a hacker.
[35:13.250 --> 35:13.810]  Oh, I'm sorry.
[35:14.030 --> 35:15.650]  It's the name of the show.
[35:15.650 --> 35:16.110]  True Life.
[35:16.110 --> 35:16.150]  True Life.
[35:16.330 --> 35:16.730]  I am a hacker.
[35:16.850 --> 35:18.930]  This person says, To begin with, I am not a hacker.
[35:19.330 --> 35:21.330]  I know little to nothing about freaking or hacking.
[35:21.370 --> 35:25.050]  I am, though, an acquaintance of one of the three trendy teens depicted in the show.
[35:25.490 --> 35:28.690]  I was by the side of one of these individuals during his meetings with MTV.
[35:29.090 --> 35:32.710]  At no time did Serena or any of her assistants seem interested in the facts.
[35:32.770 --> 35:33.870]  They wanted the hard story.
[35:33.970 --> 35:37.770]  They wanted something that would make the Backstreet Boys do something in their pants.
[35:38.510 --> 35:43.250]  To protect the community, this individual took it upon himself to screw with Serena and friends.
[35:43.250 --> 35:45.590]  He filled me in on every detail of what he was going to do.
[35:46.090 --> 35:50.090]  The night of the show, I sat back and laughed as I watched his ruse slowly unfold.
[35:51.490 --> 35:54.050]  Unfortunately, none of us were in on the joke, so it kind of fell flat.
[35:54.590 --> 36:01.870]  Everything these individuals did was done for the sole purpose of unveiling the farce of these so-called documentaries that everyone takes as fact.
[36:02.530 --> 36:06.250]  Again, you can only reveal farce if everyone knows the fact beforehand.
[36:06.510 --> 36:10.290]  Yeah, and if you say at the end, by the way, this was a farce, which didn't happen.
[36:11.490 --> 36:13.790]  I do not think they meant to offend anyone in the community.
[36:14.190 --> 36:16.930]  This comes only from my first-hand evaluation of the situation.
[36:17.190 --> 36:18.590]  I hope everyone can learn from this show.
[36:19.030 --> 36:20.970]  What you see on any channel may be farce.
[36:21.030 --> 36:28.250]  I'm sure we could philosophize on this subject for hours with no outcome, but my purpose was to hopefully clear up the purpose for the docu-mentee's action.
[36:28.610 --> 36:36.950]  Well, whatever experience that gentleman had with Serena, I would counter because the contact I had with her, she was actually interested in what was going on.
[36:37.870 --> 36:39.650]  Then we have to find out what happened.
[36:39.650 --> 36:41.790]  Where did those ideas go astray?
[36:42.170 --> 36:45.690]  I have a feeling it was some outside influence, but that's...
[36:45.690 --> 36:47.230]  I have no proof of that.
[36:47.410 --> 36:49.690]  It just seems to be my reigning theory at the moment.
[36:50.250 --> 36:50.490]  All right.
[36:51.070 --> 36:52.110]  Time for listener feedback.
[36:52.270 --> 36:54.390]  212-209-2900.
[36:54.650 --> 37:00.190]  Again, we're talking about the MTV special on Hackers, which aired a couple of weeks ago and was repeated a few times.
[37:00.250 --> 37:01.230]  I don't think it's on anymore.
[37:01.750 --> 37:03.150]  I think the tapes have been burned.
[37:03.190 --> 37:03.550]  I don't know.
[37:04.170 --> 37:04.770]  We'll see.
[37:05.170 --> 37:08.270]  Let's take some phone calls and please try to stay on topic.
[37:08.390 --> 37:08.890]  Okay, Rebel?
[37:09.190 --> 37:09.390]  Good.
[37:09.650 --> 37:10.190]  Good evening.
[37:10.410 --> 37:10.870]  You're on the air.
[37:12.190 --> 37:12.490]  Hello?
[37:12.710 --> 37:13.410]  Yeah, speak up, please.
[37:13.570 --> 37:13.970]  Hey, man.
[37:14.070 --> 37:14.510]  Old Zeno.
[37:14.730 --> 37:15.410]  Hey, how you doing?
[37:15.650 --> 37:16.010]  Good.
[37:16.010 --> 37:19.310]  I was actually on the show in the very beginning.
[37:19.310 --> 37:21.310]  I was the one that said it's like being God.
[37:22.070 --> 37:22.990]  Was you saying that?
[37:22.990 --> 37:24.730]  I was in a phone ranger's hat.
[37:24.950 --> 37:29.410]  I was getting some stuff for wearing a hat and cigarettes and things of that nature.
[37:29.590 --> 37:30.910]  I thought there was somebody else.
[37:31.050 --> 37:32.470]  That was me, but the thing...
[37:32.470 --> 37:33.370]  It's my way of your holiness, yeah.
[37:33.550 --> 37:38.290]  The thing that's funny about it is it was actually not in relation to hackers at all.
[37:38.870 --> 37:43.510]  It was more in relation to that we were talking about role-playing games and why people play them.
[37:43.650 --> 37:44.170]  You're kidding.
[37:44.530 --> 37:45.550]  It was like...
[37:45.550 --> 37:49.770]  It was kind of like an analogy with like role-playing games, but I was talking about role-playing games when I said...
[37:49.770 --> 37:51.670]  So they took your remarks out of context.
[37:51.890 --> 37:52.210]  They said...
[37:52.210 --> 37:53.130]  I was talking about it.
[37:53.210 --> 37:53.590]  I said...
[37:53.590 --> 37:54.010]  I'm shocked.
[37:54.250 --> 37:56.010]  Being game master is like being God, right?
[37:56.690 --> 37:57.570]  And they're like...
[37:57.570 --> 37:58.570]  Oh, throw that in.
[37:58.710 --> 37:59.430]  You shouldn't be shocked.
[37:59.470 --> 38:02.870]  And of course, you have to like say it on the show and like the first line of the thing.
[38:03.050 --> 38:05.110]  So everyone's like, oh, good one, Zeno.
[38:05.370 --> 38:06.010]  I am shocked.
[38:06.010 --> 38:06.730]  I am appalled.
[38:06.910 --> 38:07.690]  I am mortified.
[38:07.810 --> 38:08.870]  I cannot believe this.
[38:08.930 --> 38:09.490]  This is what happens.
[38:09.490 --> 38:14.030]  How can they take a statement like this made in a totally different subject and apply it to hackers?
[38:14.230 --> 38:15.070]  And you know it's the worst thing?
[38:15.150 --> 38:15.790]  Serena's so cheap.
[38:15.870 --> 38:17.190]  She bought me only two sodas.
[38:17.670 --> 38:17.990]  Really?
[38:19.770 --> 38:21.490]  She said like stuff in context for her.
[38:22.590 --> 38:23.950]  So what did you think of the rest of the show?
[38:24.130 --> 38:28.170]  I thought the show was pretty stupid because like they were obviously lying.
[38:28.390 --> 38:31.870]  I mean, I got off the phone and I called up my friends who were like, that's bull.
[38:32.370 --> 38:32.950]  I'm not going to say it.
[38:33.250 --> 38:33.470]  Okay.
[38:33.790 --> 38:42.670]  And I think like Serena really like screwed everyone over because like she like she like tricked us because she said it was going to be about Kevin.
[38:43.270 --> 38:43.770]  You know?
[38:43.930 --> 38:46.790]  And she just wanted feedback from us and I was like, all right, that's cool.
[38:47.310 --> 38:47.630]  Whatever.
[38:47.930 --> 38:48.390]  You know?
[38:48.750 --> 38:51.070]  Well, I mean, I do realize that this is bigger than one person.
[38:51.270 --> 38:54.870]  I do realize that, you know, one person didn't go out there and say, I'm going to screw these people over.
[38:55.970 --> 39:02.470]  But at the very least, you know, you can stand up and object when people try to get you to change.
[39:02.710 --> 39:12.890]  I'm pretty sure they went through changes and who was running it because there was this one guy, Scott, who was the guy I talked to when I was talking to about the show and then he got like fired or something.
[39:13.150 --> 39:13.370]  Really?
[39:13.490 --> 39:14.870]  Because he was no longer working for MTV.
[39:15.270 --> 39:15.410]  Huh.
[39:15.410 --> 39:19.090]  And a lot of their phone numbers change, I've noticed, like their fax numbers and stuff.
[39:19.250 --> 39:22.190]  Oh, of course, because a hacker's going to get blamed for anything bad that happens to them.
[39:22.250 --> 39:25.250]  Did you see the part at the end where the AOL account got hacked?
[39:25.270 --> 39:31.110]  Yeah, it's really hard to call up an AOL representative and say, I forgot my password and you cancel my account.
[39:31.330 --> 39:32.550]  That takes a lot of skill.
[39:32.790 --> 39:38.970]  But again, you know, without any more details, how do you know that that had anything to do with this show, anything to do with these people?
[39:39.110 --> 39:41.070]  It wasn't just a big publicity stunt on their point?
[39:41.070 --> 39:44.990]  Why would they be filming her when she's going on her AOL account?
[39:45.170 --> 39:45.390]  Yeah.
[39:45.590 --> 39:47.050]  I thought that was kind of nice, too.
[39:47.190 --> 39:49.110]  That did seem kind of suspect right there.
[39:49.210 --> 39:53.270]  Yeah, and the voicemail thing, I can't believe you found out she had two voicemails.
[39:53.690 --> 39:55.450]  I mean, this guy's obviously dangerous.
[39:55.690 --> 40:02.990]  Yeah, now that was interesting, too, because the guy standing there is saying, yeah, I found out you had two voicemail accounts and she's amazed.
[40:02.990 --> 40:04.690]  How did you know I had two voicemail accounts?
[40:04.750 --> 40:06.630]  You can find this out just by pressing touch tones, I'll bet.
[40:07.870 --> 40:11.870]  And then she says, so are you listening to all my private information?
[40:11.970 --> 40:13.370]  He doesn't give any private information.
[40:13.370 --> 40:15.190]  He just kind of hints that he is and that's it.
[40:15.230 --> 40:16.090]  That's good enough for her.
[40:16.510 --> 40:17.390]  It's good enough for anybody.
[40:17.850 --> 40:19.670]  you have two voicemails too, right?
[40:19.770 --> 40:21.190]  How could you possibly know that?
[40:22.530 --> 40:23.510]  I'm scared now.
[40:23.790 --> 40:26.030]  This guy's going to turn off my power in the middle of the night.
[40:26.130 --> 40:27.510]  You better watch out for me.
[40:27.810 --> 40:28.050]  Wow.
[40:28.310 --> 40:32.490]  Actually, where you are, like a good stiff breeze and a tree limb could do that on its own.
[40:32.690 --> 40:33.390]  That's true, too.
[40:33.470 --> 40:36.710]  I'm going to cancel my credit card after the show, unless you beat me to it.
[40:37.930 --> 40:38.510]  You're late.
[40:38.850 --> 40:40.090]  I got two lines here, man.
[40:40.490 --> 40:40.910]  Oh, boy.
[40:41.270 --> 40:42.650]  All right, thanks for the feedback.
[40:42.650 --> 40:43.110]  No problem.
[40:43.310 --> 40:43.550]  All right.
[40:43.650 --> 40:43.830]  Bye-bye.
[40:45.150 --> 40:46.450]  212-209-2900.
[40:46.770 --> 40:47.150]  Good evening.
[40:47.310 --> 40:47.750]  You're on the air.
[40:49.150 --> 40:49.730]  Speak up, please.
[40:49.950 --> 40:54.550]  Hey, I wanted to talk a bit about the information revolution that we seem to be in.
[40:54.990 --> 40:57.890]  Some people are critical of it and obviously critical of computers.
[40:58.390 --> 40:58.670]  Okay.
[40:58.950 --> 41:00.730]  Are you talking about the MTV thing at all?
[41:01.090 --> 41:08.010]  A bit about the MTV thing, where computers are portrayed as bad and anyone who knows how to use one is portrayed as bad as well.
[41:08.590 --> 41:12.330]  I wonder if you ever read the Neil Postman article informing ourselves to death.
[41:12.890 --> 41:13.670]  I did not.
[41:14.090 --> 41:14.290]  Okay.
[41:14.570 --> 41:15.670]  Maybe you want to check it out.
[41:15.870 --> 41:21.990]  It's linked on my webpage, radio.deathstar.ca, where we stream the MP3 from.
[41:22.590 --> 41:24.830]  Check it out and I'd be interested to hear what you think about that one.
[41:25.030 --> 41:25.290]  Okay.
[41:25.370 --> 41:26.170]  Give the address one more time.
[41:26.430 --> 41:31.570]  It's http colon slash slash radio dot deathstar dot ca.
[41:32.250 --> 41:32.650]  Okay.
[41:33.110 --> 41:37.830]  And just email your comments to me or depending on if you want to talk about it or not.
[41:38.030 --> 41:38.270]  Okay.
[41:38.470 --> 41:38.810]  Thanks a lot.
[41:38.890 --> 41:39.330]  Thanks for calling.
[41:39.470 --> 41:40.170]  That I'm going to read.
[41:40.450 --> 41:40.870]  Good evening.
[41:41.010 --> 41:41.430]  You're on the air.
[41:42.330 --> 41:47.470]  Yeah, I didn't see the MTV thing because I thought it was canceled but I would have watched it if I had known.
[41:47.990 --> 41:49.030]  You're just out of the loop, Rebel.
[41:49.370 --> 41:50.050]  You're out of the loop.
[41:50.070 --> 41:51.030]  Was I on that?
[41:51.110 --> 41:54.570]  Because I thought they were asking me questions when they I don't remember.
[41:55.490 --> 41:57.930]  Well, you were featured pretty much for the first half.
[41:59.390 --> 42:03.830]  I can't believe some of the things you're up to, Rebel, and I would really take stock of yourself.
[42:04.830 --> 42:13.110]  You let these people find out a lot of personal information, I mean, it certainly didn't make the rest of us look good.
[42:13.190 --> 42:16.090]  I mean, that whole thing with the chickens, I mean, what is it?
[42:16.630 --> 42:22.790]  I don't know what the fascination is here, but it certainly has got nothing to do with hacking, okay?
[42:24.070 --> 42:30.710]  Alright, well, you've got some damage to it there, so I can't believe people, and they get in front of a camera and they just let everything out.
[42:32.050 --> 42:32.730]  You're just evil.
[42:32.890 --> 42:33.630]  Figuratively and literally.
[42:33.750 --> 42:34.370]  Good evening, you're on
[42:40.010 --> 42:42.470]  the show, I figured, you know, I'd call in voice my opinion.
[42:42.650 --> 42:44.650]  Well, yeah, you're on the show now, so what's your opinion?
[42:45.370 --> 42:49.630]  Well, I personally unfortunately watched the MTV special, as they call it.
[42:50.530 --> 42:54.870]  I mean, I actually had to tape it because I wasn't going to be home.
[42:54.870 --> 42:56.910]  when I was going out, I had to purchase some things.
[42:57.590 --> 43:00.570]  And I came home and I thought it was going to be maybe an hour or two.
[43:00.690 --> 43:04.310]  I figured, you know, they'll give it a good shot, maybe let people know what it's about.
[43:04.730 --> 43:09.830]  And I came home and I was just appalled that it was a half hour and in plain English bullshit.
[43:10.450 --> 43:19.150]  I mean, my favorite part was when the so-called mantis went on and threw out a process call and told them that he could see what everybody else was typing on their own box.
[43:19.270 --> 43:23.090]  Did you actually freeze the video of the screen?
[43:23.530 --> 43:26.350]  I really didn't spend the first time on it, really.
[43:26.610 --> 43:31.650]  Yeah, because what I think you're referring to is basically just a list of processes was on the screen.
[43:31.850 --> 43:32.230]  Exactly.
[43:32.370 --> 43:37.590]  Yeah, and you could also see somebody trying to SU and failing and trying to trace route to something.
[43:37.790 --> 43:43.590]  And they make that seem like that's hacking into something because they don't focus on it long enough for you to see what's actually going on.
[43:43.670 --> 43:45.410]  But if you freeze it, you can see what it is.
[43:45.590 --> 43:52.610]  MTV is a completely moronical station to begin with a completely moronical network and its users are just as stupid.
[43:52.990 --> 44:03.770]  I mean, promotions such as the movie Hackers and Cyberpunks and Wargames, you know, all that shit just throws out a bad name for everybody and, you know, they freak out over it.
[44:03.830 --> 44:11.270]  I mean, I personally am a student and in school somebody hears the word hacker and you've got a whole bunch of seniors running up to kiss your feet.
[44:11.650 --> 44:13.730]  Oh my God, can you transfer my bank account?
[44:13.890 --> 44:17.550]  I mean, stupid shit like that is what gives everybody a bad name.
[44:18.070 --> 44:20.090]  I personally don't call myself a hacker.
[44:20.450 --> 44:23.190]  I'm just a person who loves to learn.
[44:23.530 --> 44:29.150]  You know, I sit there sometimes 12, 13 hours at a terminal just because I'm trying to learn something new.
[44:29.390 --> 44:31.530]  You know, and people give that a bad name.
[44:31.670 --> 44:34.350]  I mean, I didn't know learning was so horrible.
[44:34.730 --> 44:38.050]  I mean, in that case, you know, the government should shut down all the public schools.
[44:38.610 --> 44:42.790]  I mean, in that case, every person attending a public school is a hacker.
[44:43.470 --> 44:44.190]  Good point.
[44:44.190 --> 44:44.970]  good point.
[44:45.150 --> 44:49.830]  really, shit, teachers would be locked up if that was against the law to learn, to teach.
[44:49.970 --> 44:54.510]  I mean, they're teaching such, you know, a criminal act such as math or science.
[44:55.650 --> 44:57.750]  I mean, I really don't, I don't get it.
[44:57.810 --> 45:00.250]  I just basically wanted to say f*ck you.
[45:00.490 --> 45:01.290]  All right, all right.
[45:02.470 --> 45:03.850]  Some people just have problems.
[45:03.990 --> 45:04.250]  Good evening.
[45:04.310 --> 45:04.790]  You're on the air.
[45:05.350 --> 45:05.930]  Hey, how you doing?
[45:05.930 --> 45:13.430]  I just wanted to say that MTV really distorted our image of how we really just wanted to gain knowledge and they kind of made it seem destructive.
[45:14.190 --> 45:18.450]  And I also wanted to say that in school I was trying to do Hero for Humanity.
[45:18.590 --> 45:21.690]  I was trying to do Kevin Mitnick and my school threatened not to let me.
[45:21.830 --> 45:25.610]  So I told him I was going to file a suit against him and they let me do it.
[45:26.890 --> 45:27.750]  It's pretty interesting.
[45:27.970 --> 45:28.830]  That's something to be proud of.
[45:29.770 --> 45:47.650]  And also at the last 2600 meeting we were going around the city in New York and there was a Canadian film crew and they were doing a documentary on free speech and on free rights in Canada and me and Zeno who was just on first we spoke for it and we explained what it was all about,
[45:47.750 --> 45:51.690]  what the Mitnick case was about and we got some good publicity there.
[45:52.790 --> 45:53.370]  That's good.
[45:53.470 --> 45:53.510]  Yeah.
[45:53.710 --> 46:00.070]  You know, I don't really recommend that people not talk to media but you've got to be very careful that this kind of thing can happen.
[46:00.730 --> 46:01.710]  I can't trust them at all.
[46:01.850 --> 46:12.230]  No, you should never trust anybody to get the story completely right but you should always give them the opportunity to prove how wrong they can be and be prepared when that happens.
[46:12.430 --> 46:22.690]  Yeah, but it's really sad when they are because you try so hard and for so long to make yourself look good and to keep a good reputation and then someone goes and sticks it to you like this with a real kick in the ass.
[46:22.690 --> 46:32.310]  Well, by the same token, we should recognize those journalists, those entities that get it right and we should make sure that we stay in touch with them.
[46:32.690 --> 46:37.810]  You know, the people that actually do good jobs on documentaries or news stories, you know, they're out there.
[46:39.230 --> 46:40.030]  Hard to find, though.
[46:40.190 --> 46:41.650]  Hard to find, but they are out there.
[46:41.730 --> 46:43.610]  You know, unfortunately, most of them seem to be foreign.
[46:43.830 --> 46:44.650]  They seem to be out of the country.
[46:44.750 --> 46:47.390]  I know Canadian news crews seem to do a pretty good job.
[46:47.430 --> 46:52.930]  I know we did something with City TV, which is affiliated with Much Music up in Toronto.
[46:52.930 --> 46:53.430]  I think that's who it was.
[46:53.610 --> 46:55.650]  Yeah, and they did a good job and I would work with them again.
[46:55.770 --> 46:57.410]  BBC has almost always gotten it right.
[46:57.590 --> 46:57.910]  Oh, yes.
[46:58.210 --> 47:01.350]  And the Japanese crews, they usually do a very good job.
[47:01.510 --> 47:01.750]  They're coming next month.
[47:01.910 --> 47:02.590]  They're coming next month.
[47:02.750 --> 47:07.410]  So, you know, I have no problem with the foreign news media.
[47:07.550 --> 47:10.610]  It's the American news media that seems to want to sensationalize things.
[47:10.770 --> 47:11.590]  That's exactly what they do.
[47:11.650 --> 47:12.550]  They claim the media hype.
[47:12.710 --> 47:14.530]  They put on what people want to hear.
[47:14.530 --> 47:16.050]  Well, that's because it sells.
[47:16.970 --> 47:24.270]  They're looking to sell advertising space and when you can keep somebody on the channel for long enough to get to the ads, they win.
[47:25.070 --> 47:28.590]  Yeah, but I don't understand why that It's not right, but Why does that always equate with crap?
[47:28.730 --> 47:30.270]  Why can't it equate with something good?
[47:31.670 --> 47:39.970]  Because it's so much easier to put on a Jerry Springer than it is to put on a serious expose on what hackers are really about.
[47:44.530 --> 47:51.810]  Everyone just hate MTV more and then all these people will claim, oh, I'm a hacker now because I sit in front of my box for 13 hours, 14 hours a day.
[47:51.990 --> 47:52.110]  Right.
[47:52.670 --> 47:55.230]  Of course, we are talking about MTV and maybe that's what they like.
[47:56.130 --> 47:56.330]  Yeah.
[47:56.670 --> 47:57.090]  Good point.
[47:57.390 --> 47:59.370]  How many times have we said MTV in the last hour?
[47:59.590 --> 48:01.490]  It's like free advertising for them.
[48:01.630 --> 48:04.170]  I didn't say BAI once on that thing.
[48:05.130 --> 48:05.510]  All right.
[48:05.570 --> 48:05.970]  Thanks for the call.
[48:06.030 --> 48:06.950]  Thanks for getting me on the air, man.
[48:07.030 --> 48:07.290]  All right.
[48:07.650 --> 48:09.030]  212-209-2900.
[48:09.110 --> 48:09.330]  Good evening.
[48:09.430 --> 48:09.830]  You're on the air.
[48:10.490 --> 48:10.850]  Yes.
[48:11.350 --> 48:12.710]  Also, I think I'm a hacker.
[48:12.710 --> 48:13.830]  You sound very familiar.
[48:14.570 --> 48:15.570]  Only one call per person.
[48:15.590 --> 48:16.310]  I don't know who that could have been.
[48:16.450 --> 48:16.730]  I do.
[48:16.910 --> 48:17.710]  It's that chicken guy.
[48:17.770 --> 48:18.010]  Good evening.
[48:18.050 --> 48:18.490]  You're on the air.
[48:19.270 --> 48:19.770]  Hey, man.
[48:19.850 --> 48:20.510]  Y'all, how's it going?
[48:20.630 --> 48:21.290]  It's Montag.
[48:21.510 --> 48:22.130]  Hey, how are you?
[48:22.290 --> 48:22.370]  Hey.
[48:22.630 --> 48:23.430]  Oh, pretty good.
[48:23.530 --> 48:24.510]  Calling from D.C., right?
[48:25.450 --> 48:26.550]  Yeah, the area.
[48:26.930 --> 48:31.310]  And don't bother trying to look me up on this phone number either.
[48:32.090 --> 48:33.450]  We don't have your phone number.
[48:33.510 --> 48:34.870]  We just have a little red light on the console.
[48:34.870 --> 48:37.030]  Yeah, unfortunately we're non-caller ID equipped.
[48:37.290 --> 48:38.770]  Yeah, the FBI takes care of that.
[48:39.130 --> 48:39.730]  Oh, okay.
[48:41.370 --> 48:44.830]  I was calling about something I saw on Slashdot today.
[48:45.050 --> 48:45.310]  Uh-huh.
[48:46.030 --> 48:49.250]  Slashdot has finally caught up with your CNN interview.
[48:49.530 --> 48:49.750]  Oh, yeah.
[48:49.850 --> 48:50.430]  I heard about that.
[48:51.070 --> 48:51.950]  Actually, CNN.
[48:52.170 --> 48:54.410]  Now, you know, I don't usually have good things to say about CNN.
[48:54.850 --> 49:01.510]  CNN did a very good interview with a question and answer session with both me and some guy from IBM.
[49:02.010 --> 49:03.770]  And this has been up for months.
[49:04.190 --> 49:07.690]  Apparently, somebody at Slashdot.org decided that it was new today.
[49:07.850 --> 49:09.830]  They found it and said, Hey, this thing is up there.
[49:12.930 --> 49:14.150]  Slashdot guys, right?
[49:14.290 --> 49:15.430]  Yeah, it's pretty funny.
[49:15.610 --> 49:20.250]  But, you know, I looked at some of the comments and most of the comments are pretty intelligent, I think.
[49:20.510 --> 49:25.350]  And it's good to see people getting into it because we raised a lot of interesting points.
[49:25.750 --> 49:29.270]  Well, one of them I took great offense to and I commented to it.
[49:29.930 --> 49:34.510]  Not as much as I should have because I don't know you that well yet.
[49:34.770 --> 49:42.550]  But it was one that said something about you started out in a computer club called 411.
[49:42.930 --> 49:43.790]  No, no, no, no.
[49:43.850 --> 49:44.410]  That was not me.
[49:44.450 --> 49:44.570]  Yeah.
[49:44.770 --> 49:49.330]  I knew that was just absolutely I think they're talking about the 414s.
[49:49.630 --> 49:51.870]  I think that's what they're talking about over in Milwaukee.
[49:52.470 --> 49:53.570]  Back in the 80s.
[49:54.070 --> 49:58.670]  Well, I sent Mackie the link to the response.
[49:59.070 --> 50:01.430]  Well, you have to expect some people to get the facts wrong.
[50:01.550 --> 50:02.330]  That's always going to happen.
[50:02.470 --> 50:03.370]  But, you know, those are people.
[50:03.530 --> 50:05.110]  They're not people writing news stories.
[50:05.710 --> 50:06.570]  Yeah, that's true.
[50:06.750 --> 50:08.410]  Oh, something interesting today.
[50:08.410 --> 50:15.810]  I got an email from the people that were doing a documentary during our June 4th meeting here in front of the Supreme Court.
[50:17.070 --> 50:18.990]  And she's going to be...
[50:18.990 --> 50:29.650]  That crew's going to be back down here next month speaking to Congress people and to Ms. Deming, everybody's privacy favorite.
[50:29.850 --> 50:30.350]  Dorothy Denning.
[50:30.830 --> 50:32.090]  Well, now, that's interesting.
[50:32.190 --> 50:33.710]  Who are they from?
[50:35.190 --> 50:37.070]  It's an independent documentary.
[50:37.410 --> 50:46.310]  And that videotape I gave you at the 2600 meeting I went to in New York, it's got all of those guys on there.
[50:47.550 --> 50:51.930]  And actually, I'll forward you the email, too, that I got from her.
[50:51.930 --> 50:55.570]  Anyway, she was looking for a little bit more extensive...
[50:55.570 --> 51:05.270]  I don't know, this might be a bad omen because since I was wearing FBI gear when I was at the demonstration, she...
[51:07.350 --> 51:10.990]  as opposed to my NSA gear that I was wearing at your meeting.
[51:11.170 --> 51:11.250]  Right.
[51:11.710 --> 51:13.010]  That went over very well.
[51:13.630 --> 51:14.490]  Yeah, I know.
[51:14.590 --> 51:21.550]  My son kept telling me that people were coming up and asking him if he knew me and he said, yeah.
[51:21.930 --> 51:23.310]  And people were asking me about you, too.
[51:23.330 --> 51:23.930]  Well, is he with...
[51:23.930 --> 51:25.150]  Yeah, is he with the NSA?
[51:25.150 --> 51:26.150]  And he said, no.
[51:26.310 --> 51:29.790]  And then they said, well, why is he acting like he's an NSA guy?
[51:29.850 --> 51:30.770]  And he said, he's not.
[51:31.330 --> 51:32.830]  He's just wearing the stuff.
[51:33.090 --> 51:36.470]  You know, I actually did meet somebody from the NSA a couple of nights ago.
[51:36.630 --> 51:36.830]  Really?
[51:36.970 --> 51:37.150]  Yeah.
[51:37.570 --> 51:38.330]  It was interesting.
[51:39.110 --> 51:43.350]  Out in the community that I live in near D.C., it's like NSA City.
[51:43.570 --> 51:46.830]  Everybody out here works for NSA or CIA, one of the two.
[51:47.230 --> 51:48.890]  You're doing it on Intelligence Row.
[51:48.890 --> 51:49.110]  So...
[51:49.110 --> 51:53.690]  Well, you just hang out down at a bar down here and you can find out anything you want to.
[51:54.330 --> 52:00.750]  But anyway, back to those guys that were up here doing the documentary.
[52:02.710 --> 52:09.490]  Let's see, she asked me if I could get them a more extensive tour since she noticed that I was wearing FBI stuff.
[52:10.270 --> 52:15.650]  So I emailed her back and I told her, well, you know, the regular tour, I think it's back on.
[52:15.730 --> 52:36.990]  They closed it off for so-called security reasons for a while and I bought all that junk at the FBI store and I also put it out to the local DC 2600 guys because some of them, you know, they're contractors with FBI, DOD, and everybody else.
[52:38.830 --> 52:43.190]  So anyway, hopefully they'll get a nice tour when they come back here next month.
[52:43.190 --> 52:44.050]  Okay, sounds good.
[52:44.150 --> 52:44.930]  Listen, we're going to move on.
[52:45.250 --> 52:45.570]  Okay.
[52:45.890 --> 52:47.790]  Thanks for all the support and all the hard work.
[52:48.090 --> 52:49.190]  Hey, no problem.
[52:49.250 --> 52:52.590]  I appreciate you guys letting me be involved.
[52:52.810 --> 52:54.430]  Okay, well, keep up the good work down there in DC.
[52:54.930 --> 52:55.410]  All right, thanks.
[52:55.590 --> 52:56.230]  All right, take care.
[52:56.950 --> 52:58.070]  212-209-2900.
[52:58.170 --> 52:59.990]  Let's see how many calls we can get through in the next couple of minutes.
[53:00.010 --> 53:00.850]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[53:02.350 --> 53:02.990]  Yes, it's you.
[53:03.110 --> 53:03.370]  Speak up.
[53:03.710 --> 53:04.290]  Yes, hello.
[53:04.530 --> 53:05.050]  Hi, how are you?
[53:05.290 --> 53:06.210]  Good, thank you.
[53:06.210 --> 53:07.310]  I have a question.
[53:07.490 --> 53:09.930]  Maybe it's relevant to the show, but please, I need an answer.
[53:10.070 --> 53:10.250]  Okay.
[53:10.630 --> 53:15.770]  Can someone make a phone call on my phone without touching my phone?
[53:15.930 --> 53:16.150]  Yes.
[53:16.990 --> 53:17.230]  Really?
[53:17.230 --> 53:21.450]  Because you make your phone calls off the phone line, not the telephone itself.
[53:21.690 --> 53:23.810]  So all somebody has to do is clip into your line.
[53:23.930 --> 53:28.850]  That can be done anywhere from the central office to the basement of your apartment building.
[53:29.030 --> 53:31.650]  How come the phone company doesn't know this?
[53:31.670 --> 53:39.890]  Oh, they know this, but if they said that publicly, anybody can clip into your line, then all of a sudden they'd have to give credit to everybody that disputed a phone call.
[53:40.170 --> 53:47.530]  You know, I got a call from these people telling me to cut it out because they were getting obscene calls and I was swearing to them that that was not me.
[53:47.730 --> 53:47.910]  Really?
[53:48.130 --> 53:52.670]  And I called the phone company and they told me to disconnect my cordless phone.
[53:53.110 --> 54:01.490]  Well, you know, older cordless phones that was a problem where you could basically hijack a dial tone and make phone calls that way, but what kind of cordless phone do you have?
[54:01.510 --> 54:02.070]  How old is it?
[54:02.850 --> 54:03.650]  A little old.
[54:03.790 --> 54:05.490]  I would say at least five years old.
[54:05.490 --> 54:11.630]  It's possible that could be happening, but it's more likely in my opinion that someone's clipping into your actual lines.
[54:11.830 --> 54:12.470]  Definitely there is someone.
[54:12.590 --> 54:13.630]  What can I do, please?
[54:15.590 --> 54:17.890]  Well, there's really not a...
[54:17.890 --> 54:21.190]  Well, actually, you can get call blocking.
[54:21.470 --> 54:27.370]  When someone does make an obscene call on your line, it gets blocked at least, but this is something...
[54:27.370 --> 54:30.670]  It's a problem that's endemic with phone setups in this country.
[54:31.230 --> 54:32.610]  They're very insecure.
[54:32.870 --> 54:33.870]  Anybody can clip in.
[54:34.930 --> 54:36.910]  You might want to try changing your number.
[54:37.130 --> 54:40.990]  I don't think that's going to do any good, but sometimes that solves some of the problems.
[54:41.710 --> 54:48.850]  You're best off trying to find where this person is doing this from, why they're using your line, if it's somebody you know, perhaps, in the building.
[54:48.850 --> 54:54.250]  And the problem is the phone company were telling me that it was me who's using it.
[54:54.450 --> 55:01.450]  I mean, they couldn't tell me that, yeah, maybe that's possible, but they were trying to accuse me of, yeah, someone in my house had to use the phone, they were saying.
[55:01.610 --> 55:02.610]  No, it's definitely possible.
[55:02.710 --> 55:11.530]  In fact, I've known people who have phone lines coming into their closet in their apartments for other people, so it happens all the time.
[55:11.770 --> 55:14.270]  It's good to know that wasn't my children doing it.
[55:14.410 --> 55:15.650]  Well, I mean, it still could be.
[55:15.670 --> 55:16.190]  They have been.
[55:17.790 --> 55:24.010]  I don't know the person was very upset about the obscene call.
[55:24.250 --> 55:28.730]  The most important thing, maybe they could, is it the same number every time or is it different people?
[55:29.410 --> 55:38.910]  There were like three people, different people already called up and said that they have my phone on their phone.
[55:39.010 --> 55:41.370]  Well, the important thing is just to know when you're being lied to.
[55:41.450 --> 55:45.190]  When the phone company says it's not possible somebody make a call on your line, you're being lied to.
[55:45.270 --> 55:49.110]  And if you let them know that, then I think you'll be in much better shape.
[55:49.310 --> 55:51.510]  They won't try to pull the wall over your eyes.
[55:51.890 --> 55:54.610]  Not much I can do except change, like you said, nothing.
[55:55.350 --> 55:56.270]  Nothing I can do.
[55:56.390 --> 55:58.230]  You can try and find out how it's being done.
[55:58.350 --> 56:02.750]  Look for the weak points maybe near your building or in your basement or something like that.
[56:02.850 --> 56:05.670]  Try and trace out the phone lines, see where someone could be clipping in.
[56:06.550 --> 56:09.410]  Maybe figure out what time it's being done.
[56:09.770 --> 56:10.450]  Narrow it down that way.
[56:10.530 --> 56:11.550]  You kind of have to play detective.
[56:12.470 --> 56:12.790]  Really?
[56:13.050 --> 56:18.030]  Yeah, but it's definitely not something that you're responsible for and you have to make sure that they know that you know that.
[56:18.310 --> 56:19.070]  Anyway, thanks for the call.
[56:19.170 --> 56:19.490]  Good luck.
[56:19.830 --> 56:21.550]  Let's see if we can squeeze in one or two more.
[56:21.630 --> 56:21.890]  Good evening.
[56:21.990 --> 56:22.490]  You're on the air.
[56:23.710 --> 56:24.270]  Speak up.
[56:25.250 --> 56:27.050]  Okay, they didn't speak up, so I'm going to move on.
[56:27.130 --> 56:27.370]  Good evening.
[56:27.450 --> 56:27.930]  You're on the air.
[56:28.450 --> 56:29.070]  Hey, hi.
[56:29.070 --> 56:29.690]  How you doing?
[56:29.710 --> 56:30.850]  I'm going to lower my radio.
[56:30.990 --> 56:31.250]  Okay.
[56:31.510 --> 56:36.990]  I'm going to just go off the subject for one second because this is very appropriate.
[56:37.190 --> 56:37.750]  Make it fast.
[56:37.910 --> 56:51.810]  Okay, it's a World Series night and I remember when I was a kid for some strange reason you could call the telephone company's time number and during World Series time they would give you the score of the game.
[56:52.010 --> 56:52.190]  Really?
[56:52.570 --> 56:53.750]  You don't remember that.
[56:54.650 --> 56:56.650]  I don't remember any World Series when I was a kid.
[56:56.750 --> 56:58.390]  This was in the 1960s.
[56:58.450 --> 57:01.270]  I thought you might be able to tell me why that used to happen.
[57:01.410 --> 57:05.910]  I imagine we lived in a friendlier country then where it wasn't always about making a buck.
[57:06.070 --> 57:10.290]  It was a public service where people actually gave you the time without asking for money.
[57:10.290 --> 57:14.870]  A place where you could ask an operator for an area code and not be asked for your calling card number in exchange.
[57:15.170 --> 57:17.410]  A place where people really cared about people.
[57:17.590 --> 57:18.410]  You know...
[57:19.090 --> 57:19.990]  I'm getting all misty eyes.
[57:20.270 --> 57:26.630]  There's a switch in Queens that if you dial 9901 which will give you the information on what prefixes...
[57:26.630 --> 57:27.550]  Gives you the World Series score?
[57:27.830 --> 57:31.630]  No, the guy who did the recording did it in this whole Elvis voice.
[57:31.630 --> 57:32.070]  Oh, yeah.
[57:32.270 --> 57:32.910]  Thank you very much.
[57:33.630 --> 57:35.070]  There's another guy that says congratulations.
[57:35.330 --> 57:38.010]  There's all kinds of levity out there.
[57:38.210 --> 57:39.570]  The point is it's not the company.
[57:39.730 --> 57:42.810]  It's like some guy who just has a life heart who doesn't.
[57:42.810 --> 57:46.890]  Well, these days if you gave the World Series score, somebody would probably sue you for giving out copyrighted information.
[57:47.070 --> 57:47.150]  Oh, yeah.
[57:47.590 --> 57:54.450]  But those were back in the days when you could have a light heart and be involved in the phone system and make other people have a pleasant day.
[57:54.450 --> 57:55.410]  I need a light head.
[57:55.510 --> 57:55.750]  Good evening.
[57:55.950 --> 57:56.170]  Oops.
[57:56.710 --> 57:57.350]  Too late on that one.
[57:57.450 --> 57:58.110]  Let's try one more.
[57:58.230 --> 57:58.510]  Good evening.
[57:58.590 --> 57:59.190]  You're on the air.
[58:00.330 --> 58:00.650]  Speak.
[58:01.110 --> 58:01.430]  Yes.
[58:01.550 --> 58:03.190]  Do you know you hate when people ask me...
[58:03.190 --> 58:04.890]  Yeah, I really hate when people ask me things like that.
[58:04.890 --> 58:05.170]  Good evening.
[58:05.230 --> 58:05.610]  You're on the air.
[58:05.770 --> 58:06.670]  Yeah, don't you just hate...
[58:06.670 --> 58:08.450]  Okay, this is abuse.
[58:08.450 --> 58:09.170]  Should we just give up?
[58:09.290 --> 58:09.690]  Good evening.
[58:09.890 --> 58:10.310]  You're on the air.
[58:10.650 --> 58:13.050]  Serena didn't mention prank calls, did she?
[58:13.550 --> 58:15.010]  Did she mention prank calls?
[58:15.050 --> 58:16.610]  No, she didn't mention that.
[58:16.770 --> 58:19.270]  I think if she had been given an hour, maybe...
[58:19.270 --> 58:20.150]  Durning her, I guess.
[58:20.430 --> 58:22.050]  Oh, I don't know about that.
[58:22.430 --> 58:26.530]  I'm sure the implication is that there were many, but I don't know of any.
[58:26.650 --> 58:28.510]  Again, I wouldn't blame Serena for this.
[58:28.730 --> 58:32.250]  I think that she had a genuine interest in portraying things accurately.
[58:32.610 --> 58:35.870]  I have a definite feeling that somebody pressured some kind of situation.
[58:35.870 --> 58:37.270]  But you've got to base that on facts.
[58:37.610 --> 58:39.830]  Someone has to forward and say that's the way it was.
[58:39.950 --> 58:41.850]  You can't just say that's a feeling I had.
[58:42.150 --> 58:42.690]  But it is.
[58:42.890 --> 58:46.990]  From the contact I've had with her, she seemed genuinely interested in what was going on.
[58:47.210 --> 58:48.970]  And at some point down the line, that changed.
[58:49.710 --> 58:56.310]  They say Stalin was very charming when he hung out with you, but then later when he purged you, it was a different story.
[58:57.370 --> 58:59.910]  Anyway, we'll have to examine this in future weeks.
[59:00.730 --> 59:03.850]  Send us mail, OTH at 2600.com with your feedback.
[59:04.350 --> 59:05.430]  It's Manuel Goldstein for Isaac.
[59:05.770 --> 59:06.450]  Have yourselves a good night.
[59:06.510 --> 59:07.030]  See you next week.
[59:07.030 --> 59:09.030]  But if they could, they would.
[59:09.290 --> 59:11.910]  But the best expect, the worst.
[59:12.530 --> 59:14.410]  I hope that's understood.
[59:14.750 --> 59:15.390]  But the Bo!