[00:00.950 --> 00:02.570]  It's gonna be a test.
[00:36.610 --> 00:42.310]  The battle to save community gardens continues on Manhattan's Lower East Side.
[00:43.450 --> 00:49.010]  La Esperanza, the Garden of Hope on East 7th between avenues B and C is under imminent threat of destruction.
[00:49.350 --> 00:55.470]  Community gardeners are maintaining a 24-hour encampment at the garden and they urgently need your support.
[00:55.730 --> 01:00.530]  Please donate your time, food, and supplies to defend this 22-year-old green space.
[01:01.030 --> 01:05.210]  Esperanza is just one of 600 community gardens still under threat.
[01:05.490 --> 01:08.350]  Please come to East 7th between B and C.
[01:08.350 --> 01:14.010]  For more information, please call 917-673-8762.
[01:14.330 --> 01:18.170]  The bulldozers are ready to destroy and the community is ready to resist.
[01:18.170 --> 01:25.150]  This is a public service announcement brought to you over WBAI on behalf of the Moore Gardens Coalition.
[01:32.020 --> 01:34.720]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York.
[01:34.780 --> 01:36.400]  The time is just about 8 o'clock.
[01:36.660 --> 01:38.040]  Time for Off the Hook.
[01:44.240 --> 01:46.240]  The telephone keeps ringing.
[01:46.700 --> 01:48.820]  So I ripped it off the wall.
[01:49.780 --> 01:51.820]  I cut myself while shaving.
[01:52.440 --> 01:54.400]  Now I can't make a call.
[02:01.480 --> 02:02.740]  Expect a verse.
[02:03.320 --> 02:05.320]  I hope that's understood.
[02:05.680 --> 02:06.360]  One big, two, three, four.
[02:59.900 --> 03:02.500]  And a very good evening to one and all.
[03:02.500 --> 03:04.480]  The program is off the hook.
[03:05.340 --> 03:07.840]  It's the first show of the year 2000.
[03:07.880 --> 03:13.400]  Not the first show of the 21st century or the first show of the new century or the new decade or anything like that.
[03:13.420 --> 03:16.400]  It's the first show of a new year.
[03:18.680 --> 03:22.500]  And this is also the last time you'll be hearing the music behind us because...
[03:24.160 --> 03:28.040]  Well, I suppose the countdown to Y2K is over.
[03:28.180 --> 03:28.580]  Right, Isaac?
[03:28.720 --> 03:29.600]  It's finally finished.
[03:30.040 --> 03:30.860]  You're still here.
[03:30.940 --> 03:31.360]  You're alive.
[03:31.640 --> 03:31.840]  I'm still here.
[03:31.920 --> 03:32.600]  You made it.
[03:32.680 --> 03:33.280]  I'm still here.
[03:33.280 --> 03:33.780]  I'm alive.
[03:33.940 --> 03:35.700]  I was expecting some trouble for you.
[03:35.840 --> 03:37.340]  And I was right there in Times Square.
[03:37.500 --> 03:38.320]  I really was.
[03:38.540 --> 03:39.400]  I can prove it too.
[03:39.400 --> 03:39.880]  I have pictures.
[03:40.400 --> 03:41.200]  I believe you.
[03:41.200 --> 03:41.720]  I have witnesses.
[03:41.960 --> 03:43.260]  The cops will say that I was there.
[03:43.540 --> 03:44.400]  They know I was there.
[03:44.980 --> 03:46.560]  And, yeah, I actually got there.
[03:46.620 --> 03:48.600]  And I'll tell you the whole story about how I got there.
[03:48.700 --> 03:51.640]  But, yeah, Y2K, it's over.
[03:51.840 --> 03:52.780]  It fizzled out, didn't it?
[03:52.780 --> 03:53.320]  Well, it's not over.
[03:53.420 --> 03:53.940]  Big fizzle.
[03:53.980 --> 03:54.420]  Big dud.
[03:54.600 --> 03:55.260]  It's not over.
[03:55.360 --> 03:56.640]  And it's not a big dud.
[03:56.640 --> 03:56.840]  When?
[03:57.100 --> 03:57.800]  Isaac, come on.
[03:58.260 --> 03:59.880]  It's now January 4th.
[04:00.080 --> 04:00.780]  It's over.
[04:01.000 --> 04:01.340]  Face it.
[04:01.540 --> 04:02.220]  It's finished.
[04:02.240 --> 04:03.400]  It's not completely over.
[04:03.440 --> 04:03.960]  You lost.
[04:04.140 --> 04:05.000]  No chaos.
[04:05.180 --> 04:07.780]  Maybe there'll be a snowstorm next week or something like that.
[04:07.840 --> 04:08.500]  But it's not...
[04:08.500 --> 04:11.740]  Look, there's no Y2K disaster.
[04:11.880 --> 04:12.520]  It didn't happen.
[04:12.600 --> 04:12.760]  Correct.
[04:12.940 --> 04:13.440]  No Y2K.
[04:13.560 --> 04:14.040]  Okay, correct.
[04:14.040 --> 04:15.400]  Which I'm overjoyed.
[04:16.720 --> 04:21.900]  We just passed January 3rd, which was Monday, which was like the big day after January 1st.
[04:21.900 --> 04:22.180]  Okay.
[04:22.300 --> 04:24.360]  Where people would come to work and see what broke.
[04:24.520 --> 04:30.020]  And some stuff was broken, but not enough to cause some very serious problems.
[04:30.260 --> 04:31.900]  Would you call it an...
[04:32.960 --> 04:33.400]  Overreaction?
[04:33.620 --> 04:35.220]  I would not call it an overreaction.
[04:35.400 --> 04:36.120]  I would...
[04:36.120 --> 04:37.000]  I would...
[04:37.000 --> 04:37.660]  Well, alright.
[04:37.900 --> 04:39.000]  Let's rephrase this.
[04:39.140 --> 04:42.300]  An overreaction when, where, and towards what?
[04:42.300 --> 04:43.260]  Oh, all the chaos.
[04:43.260 --> 04:49.520]  People running around buying things left and right, you know, flashlights and guns and things like that to protect themselves.
[04:49.580 --> 04:52.120]  That would, in my mind, be a little above and beyond.
[04:52.260 --> 04:55.460]  Alright, say two years ago, I would say that that kind of thing was appropriate.
[04:55.640 --> 04:55.920]  Uh-huh.
[04:56.060 --> 04:58.140]  Maybe about a year ago, I'd say that kind of thing was appropriate.
[04:58.320 --> 04:59.000]  So you've mellowed.
[04:59.080 --> 05:00.740]  You've mellowed over the months.
[05:00.840 --> 05:03.380]  Well, over the months, these systems were being fixed.
[05:03.640 --> 05:03.820]  Uh-huh.
[05:03.860 --> 05:06.820]  We spent a lot of time, effort, and money into fixing these systems.
[05:06.900 --> 05:07.960]  And here's the result.
[05:08.140 --> 05:10.600]  I mean, you know, we're here, we've had some minor glitches.
[05:10.600 --> 05:13.540]  You know, the DOD lost communications with one of its satellites.
[05:13.860 --> 05:16.900]  There were a couple of reactors in South Carolina that were shut down.
[05:17.120 --> 05:26.160]  So you believe that this is because it's a victory against incompetence, that we actually stood up and fixed things, we all stood together, and this is our triumph, right?
[05:26.300 --> 05:34.740]  Well, it's, we saw a problem, we invested the time and effort into fixing what we could find, and we did it all.
[05:35.700 --> 05:37.300]  I wouldn't say that it's over, though.
[05:37.300 --> 05:43.700]  I mean, there's still a number of weeks into January that we have to deal with, and of course February 29th.
[05:43.840 --> 05:45.360]  Of course February 29th.
[05:45.400 --> 05:46.680]  How could we forget February 29th?
[05:46.880 --> 05:48.520]  But there is one other thing.
[05:48.940 --> 05:49.260]  What other thing?
[05:49.280 --> 05:54.540]  Countries like Italy, for instance, spent virtually nothing on Y2K preventative measures.
[05:54.740 --> 05:54.900]  Okay.
[05:55.020 --> 05:55.620]  Virtually zero.
[05:55.840 --> 05:58.780]  And nothing really bad happened to them either.
[05:59.000 --> 06:04.300]  And the computer systems infrastructure in the United States as compared to Italy would be...
[06:04.300 --> 06:06.840]  I'm just saying, their infrastructure did not collapse.
[06:07.080 --> 06:07.540]  They didn't collapse.
[06:07.580 --> 06:08.300]  Yeah, we're bigger than them.
[06:08.420 --> 06:09.320]  We are bigger than them.
[06:09.440 --> 06:15.480]  We have computers in so many more places that we had to spend more time, effort, and money into fixing them.
[06:15.580 --> 06:20.240]  But a lot of what I was hearing over the past few months is that third world nations are going to be bearing the brunt of this.
[06:20.420 --> 06:23.940]  Nations that have virtually no complex systems at all.
[06:24.180 --> 06:24.400]  Yeah.
[06:24.400 --> 06:28.640]  They were going to be the ones where we'd see the real, you know, menace of Y2K.
[06:28.800 --> 06:29.780]  And that hasn't happened either.
[06:30.020 --> 06:30.540]  Well, there was...
[06:30.540 --> 06:33.540]  It doesn't seem to be based on how much we put into fixing it.
[06:33.640 --> 06:35.540]  It seems like the whole thing was overblown to start with.
[06:35.780 --> 06:36.640]  I don't believe that.
[06:36.920 --> 06:42.720]  I believe that there was a very real problem in a number of systems, and it was tackled.
[06:44.340 --> 06:47.080]  I, you know, was it overblown?
[06:47.100 --> 06:47.500]  I don't know.
[06:47.500 --> 06:53.420]  I will save that for perhaps a year from now or two years from now, and we can look back objectively.
[06:53.640 --> 07:03.020]  But right now, everybody is kind of trying to either say that things should have been a lot worse, or they should have been a lot better, or we wasted so much money, or all that money.
[07:03.180 --> 07:05.680]  Well, it does seem like there was an awful lot of profiteering.
[07:06.220 --> 07:07.980]  There's a lot of profiteering for everything.
[07:08.680 --> 07:14.960]  I mean, any war that breaks out, you're going to have individuals trying to make a fast and easy buck off of other people.
[07:18.120 --> 07:24.580]  But I'll save my final analysis for a year from now, and we can all look back and say exactly what happened.
[07:24.800 --> 07:28.460]  Well, speaking of making a fast buck, I brought something in for you.
[07:28.620 --> 07:29.600]  You brought something in for me?
[07:29.620 --> 07:29.920]  Yes, here.
[07:30.020 --> 07:31.480]  Whatever happened to those year 2002 records?
[07:31.480 --> 07:31.840]  There you go.
[07:32.460 --> 07:33.000]  What is this?
[07:33.000 --> 07:33.840]  A box of millennials.
[07:34.560 --> 07:35.000]  A millennials?
[07:36.060 --> 07:38.320]  Apparently, the Churio Corporation decided to...
[07:38.320 --> 07:41.960]  Well, actually, I guess it's General Mills, General Motors, whoever puts out Churios.
[07:42.620 --> 07:44.820]  They made a special millennial version.
[07:44.940 --> 07:45.540]  Oh, this is cool.
[07:45.720 --> 07:45.860]  Yeah.
[07:46.100 --> 07:49.160]  The only difference is that you get a little too occasionally with all the zeros.
[07:49.960 --> 07:50.580]  Well, that's pretty neat.
[07:50.680 --> 07:51.300]  Yeah, it is pretty neat.
[07:51.320 --> 07:52.760]  And there's a bunch of questions on the side, too.
[07:52.840 --> 07:53.660]  A bunch of questions on the side.
[07:53.660 --> 07:53.820]  Yeah.
[07:54.540 --> 07:55.600]  Predictions for the future.
[07:55.800 --> 07:57.080]  By blank, the U.S.
[07:57.160 --> 07:59.880]  Mint will no longer make one dollar bills, only one dollar coins?
[08:00.480 --> 08:02.240]  You have to predict the year that's going to happen.
[08:02.960 --> 08:04.560]  Oh, so there's no, like, answers or anything?
[08:04.640 --> 08:05.880]  Well, because it hasn't happened yet.
[08:05.900 --> 08:06.300]  Oh, okay.
[08:06.300 --> 08:06.980]  How could there be answers?
[08:07.200 --> 08:09.320]  Well, why are we going to go to coins and, like, remove bills?
[08:09.340 --> 08:11.020]  I would assume we go to an electronic currency.
[08:11.740 --> 08:12.100]  Okay.
[08:12.300 --> 08:13.660]  Well, maybe you want to pencil that in, then.
[08:13.900 --> 08:14.160]  Okay.
[08:14.280 --> 08:14.760]  You don't want to starve.
[08:14.920 --> 08:16.000]  There's not much room here.
[08:16.240 --> 08:16.300]  Yeah.
[08:16.840 --> 08:17.880]  What are some of the other interests?
[08:17.880 --> 08:21.100]  The first woman will be elected President of the United States in 1992.
[08:21.520 --> 08:22.300]  No, I'm sorry.
[08:23.040 --> 08:25.460]  By blank, all schools will become virtual schools.
[08:25.600 --> 08:27.900]  Kids will simply log on to their computers for class.
[08:28.640 --> 08:29.440]  That's kind of scary.
[08:29.920 --> 08:33.880]  Scientists will find human life on another planet by the year 1947.
[08:34.960 --> 08:36.620]  Well, they found us.
[08:36.800 --> 08:37.420]  Well, they found us.
[08:37.560 --> 08:37.660]  Yeah.
[08:38.660 --> 08:41.140]  Researchers will find a cure for the common cold by blank.
[08:41.340 --> 08:42.360]  I don't think that's ever going to happen.
[08:42.400 --> 08:43.160]  That's never going to happen.
[08:44.020 --> 08:47.560]  By blank, people will be wearing special suits that allow them to fly.
[08:48.960 --> 08:50.100]  I'm not going to touch that one.
[08:50.140 --> 08:54.060]  You have to define what fly, you know, how you define flying.
[08:54.600 --> 08:56.880]  All the people I know are flying around in little suits right now.
[08:57.080 --> 09:01.080]  Well, the Red Sox will win the World Series in blank.
[09:01.640 --> 09:02.320]  That's okay.
[09:03.660 --> 09:06.200]  I couldn't even predict the year that would occur.
[09:06.360 --> 09:06.500]  Yeah.
[09:07.020 --> 09:11.420]  A permanent space colony will be in place by the year...
[09:11.420 --> 09:12.680]  That would be kind of interesting.
[09:12.740 --> 09:13.220]  That would be great.
[09:13.800 --> 09:14.640]  What did Arthur C.
[09:14.700 --> 09:15.320]  Clarke say about that?
[09:16.240 --> 09:17.720]  He's predicting in the next hundred years.
[09:17.880 --> 09:18.340]  In the next hundred years?
[09:18.460 --> 09:19.880]  But hopefully a lot sooner than that.
[09:20.480 --> 09:23.440]  By blank, everyone will be driving electric-powered cars.
[09:24.440 --> 09:26.040]  Even people who don't have licenses?
[09:26.040 --> 09:30.100]  Well, I don't think that's going to happen in the near future.
[09:31.040 --> 09:34.160]  In the year blank, everything will be automated by robots...
[09:34.160 --> 09:35.940]  Oh, I'm sorry, will be automated.
[09:36.120 --> 09:39.860]  And robots will do our chores, including washing dishes, making the bed, folding laundry.
[09:39.980 --> 09:44.640]  This was the same kind of prediction that was made in 1950, 1930, 1900, 1850.
[09:44.900 --> 09:47.040]  So I'm not going to go anywhere near that one either.
[09:48.180 --> 09:51.820]  People will be able to teleport from one place to the other by the year blank.
[09:54.040 --> 09:54.400]  Teleporter.
[09:54.580 --> 09:54.600]  Teleporter.
[09:54.600 --> 09:57.020]  Well, I guess they're assuming that teleportation...
[09:57.020 --> 09:58.420]  As in physically move oneself?
[09:58.420 --> 09:59.260]  As in Star Trek.
[09:59.420 --> 10:01.220]  Oh, like the Star Trek transporter kind of teleporting.
[10:01.260 --> 10:02.020]  That would be kind of interesting.
[10:02.320 --> 10:02.900]  I don't know.
[10:03.560 --> 10:11.040]  By the year blank, you will enter your cyber kitchen, click a menu selection, and within seconds a gourmet mirror will be served.
[10:12.160 --> 10:14.220]  I like the replicators on Star Trek better than that.
[10:15.120 --> 10:15.920]  There's no clicking.
[10:16.060 --> 10:17.780]  You just say like, you know, T, Earl Grey, hot.
[10:18.540 --> 10:19.120]  You win.
[10:19.120 --> 10:22.500]  Bernie has had some run-ins with Y2K down in Philadelphia.
[10:23.180 --> 10:24.960]  Bernie, how did your nightmare go?
[10:25.160 --> 10:25.700]  Are you alive?
[10:26.520 --> 10:27.220]  Oh, I'm fine.
[10:27.440 --> 10:27.700]  Oh, good.
[10:28.140 --> 10:31.020]  My bank account was not unscathed though.
[10:32.780 --> 10:41.440]  I maybe foolishly decided to make a cash deposit on New Year's Eve around 2.30 in the afternoon on Friday.
[10:41.640 --> 10:42.920]  Oh, you did just to cause trouble.
[10:42.920 --> 10:49.260]  Well, actually someone repaid a loan that I'd lent some money over the year, and they paid me back.
[10:49.280 --> 10:50.980]  And I figured, well, I'll deposit it.
[10:51.340 --> 10:53.660]  And it was actually several thousand dollars.
[10:54.240 --> 10:59.080]  And at the time I made the deposit, this was at the Commerce Bank on Market Street here in Philadelphia.
[10:59.560 --> 11:04.420]  At the time I made the deposit, I'd asked for a balance statement on my receipt.
[11:04.920 --> 11:08.120]  And the teller's name, Jamaica, was her name.
[11:08.360 --> 11:12.240]  He said, well, I can't give you your balance because our computers are down right now.
[11:12.440 --> 11:15.080]  I'm like, well, my money's going to be there on Monday, right?
[11:15.080 --> 11:16.740]  She said, oh, absolutely.
[11:17.860 --> 11:29.280]  So Monday came, and I called the bank just to make sure the money was in there because I decided to buy some stocks with the money.
[11:30.520 --> 11:32.020]  And the money wasn't there.
[11:34.820 --> 11:39.640]  And their brokerage arm said, well, we can't transfer these funds because they're not there.
[11:39.920 --> 11:41.360]  I'm like, well, I know they're there.
[11:41.360 --> 11:42.960]  I'm looking at the receipt right here.
[11:44.100 --> 11:44.900]  Where are they?
[11:45.200 --> 11:54.540]  So I went through five different assistant managers who all told me they had absolutely no record of the transaction at all.
[11:55.160 --> 12:02.320]  And I was told that I had to take my paper receipt back to the branch to prove that I had deposited this money.
[12:02.540 --> 12:03.980]  Well, no, this is through an ATM, though.
[12:04.260 --> 12:05.100]  That's no proof.
[12:05.380 --> 12:06.220]  It went to Tamika.
[12:06.640 --> 12:09.100]  This was through a human teller.
[12:09.120 --> 12:10.140]  Oh, it was through a human teller.
[12:10.140 --> 12:11.220]  They're a human teller.
[12:11.680 --> 12:15.000]  I'm sure there were videotapes of me handing her the cash.
[12:15.200 --> 12:21.420]  I had a printed receipt showing that my account number and how much money was deposited was printed on the same receipt.
[12:21.660 --> 12:25.880]  I asked the manager at the branch, don't you balance your drawers at the end of the day?
[12:26.180 --> 12:28.380]  He said, well, the money must have gone into another account.
[12:28.520 --> 12:30.360]  They must have typed the wrong account number.
[12:30.440 --> 12:33.040]  I'm like, well, their correct account number is on the receipt.
[12:33.040 --> 12:36.540]  There was no explanation that they could give me if it was possible.
[12:36.880 --> 12:38.520]  They had a little party on New Year's Eve, maybe.
[12:38.860 --> 12:42.720]  Well, I wondered if the teller had absconded with it.
[12:42.840 --> 12:50.540]  But the branch manager was very closed-lipped with anything that sounded like a plausible explanation.
[12:50.540 --> 12:53.400]  His explanation was his... he showed me his hand.
[12:53.520 --> 12:55.260]  He said, you know, I have really fat, stubby fingers.
[12:55.320 --> 12:58.080]  You could see how easy it would be to hit a one instead of a two.
[12:58.480 --> 13:01.680]  I'm like, well, Jamaica doesn't have fat, stubby fingers like you.
[13:03.700 --> 13:04.740]  He didn't think that was very funny.
[13:04.860 --> 13:07.160]  But there's still no explanation.
[13:07.360 --> 13:12.020]  After I showed them my printed receipt, they credited my account.
[13:12.120 --> 13:13.640]  But I said, well, what if I lost this receipt?
[13:13.760 --> 13:16.520]  He said, well, it would have been... we would have had done an awful lot of paperwork.
[13:16.520 --> 13:18.400]  It would have been a big inconvenience for us.
[13:18.500 --> 13:20.180]  I'm like, for you, it would have been an inconvenience.
[13:21.340 --> 13:27.520]  Well, I called a friend of mine at the City Paper here in Philadelphia and gave her the story because she was looking for some Y2K story.
[13:28.380 --> 13:29.880]  And I wasn't expecting this at all.
[13:29.960 --> 13:31.660]  And something actually happened to me.
[13:31.740 --> 13:34.200]  Well, are you sure this is Y2K or was this just incompetence?
[13:34.220 --> 13:34.640]  I am not.
[13:34.720 --> 13:40.600]  It happened on New Year's Eve and I couldn't find my money on the first business day after Y2K.
[13:40.760 --> 13:42.560]  It may have been something...
[13:42.560 --> 13:44.760]  But I've been making transactions with this bank for two years.
[13:44.760 --> 13:46.200]  It's never happened before.
[13:46.720 --> 13:51.240]  So it's an awfully interesting coincidence if it was not Y2K computer-related.
[13:51.340 --> 13:56.640]  Frankly, if it was Y2K glitch-oriented, I don't think the bank would be upfront about it anyway.
[13:56.880 --> 13:57.380]  That's true.
[13:57.400 --> 14:00.840]  But I do think you should hold out for an explanation and just demand to know what really happened.
[14:00.840 --> 14:01.240]  Oh, sure.
[14:01.260 --> 14:02.420]  I'm not going to let them off the hook.
[14:03.080 --> 14:03.640]  All right.
[14:03.800 --> 14:04.720]  To coin a phrase.
[14:04.800 --> 14:05.720]  No pun intended.
[14:06.120 --> 14:08.200]  A couple other Y2K issues.
[14:08.460 --> 14:10.140]  This comes from the Risks Digest.
[14:10.140 --> 14:14.120]  On the whole, Y2K came and went without major immediately noted problems.
[14:14.320 --> 14:17.100]  Predictions still abounded for deferred problems.
[14:17.180 --> 14:26.800]  In fact, one thing that's rather interesting is that the email that was sent out for Risks Digest was dated Sunday to January 100.
[14:27.440 --> 14:27.880]  Yeah.
[14:28.440 --> 14:30.960]  Yeah, that date was kind of messed up there.
[14:31.540 --> 14:41.980]  There are a lot of lessons that should have been learned from the entire process, but we'll address those in the forum later after a little more time to reflect, which I think is probably the best thing to do from all angles.
[14:43.080 --> 14:43.520]  Most of them.
[14:43.520 --> 14:44.280]  A couple of things, though.
[14:45.080 --> 14:52.040]  Quidpropro2.1.2 web servers for Macs are returning 1-Jan-100 as the date to client queries.
[14:52.040 --> 15:02.300]  The Yorkshire Evening Press, www.thisisyork.co.uk, claimed the date of Saturday, January 1st, 100.
[15:04.060 --> 15:09.880]  On January 2nd, cowsnet.com gave Sunday, January 2nd, 100.
[15:10.740 --> 15:20.340]  kpix.com.tv.schedule.html gave error, cannot open, ht.tv.schedules, January 1st, 19,100.
[15:21.920 --> 15:25.600]  Various sites were hacked, including dea.com, core.net.
[15:25.780 --> 15:29.760]  There is some lovely Y2K humor on www.2600.com.
[15:30.060 --> 15:31.840]  Does anybody know what that's about?
[15:32.220 --> 15:33.040]  I have no idea.
[15:33.240 --> 15:36.180]  I keep getting all these emails from people saying, oh, that's really funny.
[15:36.420 --> 15:38.060]  I don't know what they're talking about.
[15:38.660 --> 15:39.800]  All right, no one here knows.
[15:39.880 --> 15:41.300]  All right, I don't get it either.
[15:42.620 --> 15:43.460]  What else?
[15:43.940 --> 15:44.880]  Yeah, someone...
[15:44.880 --> 15:49.460]  Gigabyte.com has the date as January 2nd, 2100.
[15:50.440 --> 15:52.300]  That's pretty interesting right there.
[15:52.400 --> 15:52.960]  2100.
[15:53.080 --> 15:59.260]  Amazon.co.uk claims a Sonic Youth CD will be made available on October 10th, 2011.
[16:00.840 --> 16:08.640]  Well, you know, it's possible that it might take that long for them to actually put it out, because they are perfectionists as far as getting the notes just right.
[16:08.800 --> 16:11.240]  So, yeah, I don't know if that's necessarily a Y2K problem.
[16:11.480 --> 16:12.360]  Oh, I see, I wonder what happened.
[16:13.200 --> 16:14.160]  Let's see what else.
[16:14.380 --> 16:15.060]  The U.S.
[16:15.180 --> 16:18.460]  Naval Observatory calendar had a date of 19,000.
[16:19.820 --> 16:23.960]  And according to the New York Times website, the date was January 1st, 1900.
[16:25.160 --> 16:32.720]  As the Pentagon folks were claiming that everything was working fine, a computer system processing satellite intelligence data lost its data collection ability at 7 p.m.
[16:33.000 --> 16:37.740]  Eastern Time, midnight GMT, on Friday evening for about 2.5 hours.
[16:40.000 --> 16:41.880]  And what else do we have here?
[16:42.860 --> 16:44.460]  www.apple.com.
[16:44.580 --> 16:45.320]  Local time error.
[16:45.480 --> 17:00.460]  Someone who, at the stroke of midnight, GMT conveniently updated their code to change the prefix from 19 to 20, having presumably audited their code, the claim on their main page over their very prominent Y2K statement that the date was January 1st, 20,100.
[17:01.640 --> 17:05.280]  And Compaq's site somehow managed to claim it was January 2nd.
[17:05.920 --> 17:10.640]  So, that's a brief rundown of all the major calamities that took place.
[17:10.840 --> 17:11.440]  Well, there were more.
[17:11.980 --> 17:16.940]  Did you hear the report about the person who returned their video for a $91,000 fee?
[17:17.040 --> 17:18.460]  Yeah, they had to sell their house.
[17:18.880 --> 17:20.260]  That's a real tragedy right there.
[17:20.260 --> 17:20.440]  It's really late.
[17:21.640 --> 17:23.860]  But that's pretty much it.
[17:24.540 --> 17:25.720]  Well, that's not it.
[17:25.980 --> 17:27.160]  For now, that's it.
[17:27.300 --> 17:28.280]  We're going to find out.
[17:28.360 --> 17:28.780]  Well, there's more that isn't reported.
[17:28.780 --> 17:30.840]  February 29th, maybe, is something else that's going to happen.
[17:30.860 --> 17:31.780]  There's a lot more that isn't reported.
[17:32.480 --> 17:33.520]  And why is that?
[17:34.280 --> 17:35.420]  Part of the conspiracy?
[17:35.680 --> 17:37.100]  No, it's not important enough.
[17:37.260 --> 17:39.580]  There are just minor inconveniences that people are dealing with.
[17:39.840 --> 17:40.660]  You're feeling it.
[17:40.980 --> 17:41.920]  How am I feeling it?
[17:41.920 --> 17:42.320]  You're feeling it now.
[17:42.540 --> 17:42.940]  How am I...
[17:42.940 --> 17:43.500]  Okay, my...
[17:43.500 --> 17:44.480]  Well, Bernie sure felt it.
[17:44.560 --> 17:45.280]  He felt it.
[17:45.300 --> 17:47.080]  But we don't know for sure if that was a Y2K issue.
[17:47.260 --> 17:48.440]  We don't know yet for sure.
[17:48.520 --> 17:49.520]  And I'd like to find out.
[17:49.760 --> 17:53.640]  And, you know, handing something to somebody, you'd think more people would have experienced it if there was a Y2K issue.
[17:53.640 --> 17:57.600]  Well, there's also a potential there that somebody just pocketed the cash and was going to blame it on Y2K.
[17:58.240 --> 17:58.780]  Yeah, there's that.
[17:59.060 --> 17:59.480]  There's that.
[17:59.480 --> 18:01.200]  But there wasn't any widespread panic.
[18:01.340 --> 18:03.180]  There wasn't anything really horrible that happened.
[18:03.280 --> 18:03.640]  No, which is great.
[18:03.880 --> 18:03.980]  Yeah.
[18:04.260 --> 18:05.120]  Power stayed on.
[18:05.200 --> 18:12.300]  In fact, let me tell you very quickly the story about what we did, a couple of us did for New Years in Times Square.
[18:13.080 --> 18:14.480]  I said I was going to go down to Times Square.
[18:14.560 --> 18:16.940]  I did go down to Times Square and...
[18:16.940 --> 18:18.200]  Well, at least someone did what they planned.
[18:18.220 --> 18:19.140]  It was really...
[18:19.140 --> 18:20.160]  Yeah, you wound up where?
[18:20.400 --> 18:22.420]  I actually wound up on Long Island where I didn't particularly...
[18:22.420 --> 18:22.980]  Long Island.
[18:23.220 --> 18:26.960]  Well, you were going to be buried in a silo someplace in New Mexico and you wound up on Long Island.
[18:26.960 --> 18:30.520]  I was going to be in Albuquerque, then I was going to be in upstate New York and I finally wound up on Long Island.
[18:31.000 --> 18:32.260]  Funny how things work out, isn't it?
[18:32.260 --> 18:32.900]  Yeah, isn't it great?
[18:33.460 --> 18:33.780]  Thanks, Mom.
[18:33.780 --> 18:44.440]  But we were wandering around and we realized, hey, you know, all these people are panicking, all these people are leaving, you know, canceling their reservations to do things on New Year's Eve and not paying huge amounts of money.
[18:44.900 --> 18:49.920]  And so we decided, hey, you know, let's see if we can actually get a hotel room in the middle of Times Square on New Year's Eve.
[18:50.040 --> 18:51.380]  Well, we could and we couldn't.
[18:51.480 --> 18:53.000]  We were able to get something for January 30th.
[18:53.000 --> 18:56.740]  But if you wanted to stay on January 31st, you had to pay the millennium.
[18:56.860 --> 18:57.260]  December 31st.
[18:57.360 --> 18:58.480]  I'm sorry, December 31st.
[18:58.520 --> 18:58.720]  Thank you.
[18:59.040 --> 19:05.600]  The millennium rate, which was $2,000 for three days, which I thought was a complete crock right there.
[19:06.300 --> 19:07.780]  That was the Marriott.
[19:07.980 --> 19:10.420]  They were, you know, really putting it to people there.
[19:10.620 --> 19:11.580]  But we were able to stay there.
[19:11.680 --> 19:12.820]  Oh, the building that Dick Clark stood on top of.
[19:13.280 --> 19:14.620]  He stood on top of the Marriott?
[19:14.740 --> 19:14.900]  Yeah.
[19:14.980 --> 19:16.260]  Doesn't he broadcast on the Marriott every year?
[19:16.300 --> 19:17.860]  I don't even pay attention to these things.
[19:17.960 --> 19:18.200]  Oh, okay.
[19:18.260 --> 19:27.560]  But the thing that they were doing was they were giving out special gold cards to people so that they could get access to the area after midnight on Friday.
[19:28.300 --> 19:32.540]  And we didn't have a room for Saturday, for Friday night into Saturday, New Year's Eve.
[19:32.620 --> 19:37.160]  But we did have a room for Thursday into Friday, so they gave us a little gold card so we'd have access to the area after midnight.
[19:37.560 --> 19:39.680]  Well, we just didn't give the gold card back.
[19:40.200 --> 19:45.820]  And so that meant the next day we had this little pass that we could show to the cops to get through the streets.
[19:46.320 --> 19:49.340]  And so we were walking around all over the place, down 42nd Street.
[19:49.480 --> 19:51.120]  Nobody, nobody was on 42nd Street.
[19:51.240 --> 19:53.340]  No people, no cars, just a lot of cops.
[19:53.340 --> 19:58.220]  And every time we passed a little blockade, we would show a little gold card that said Marriott Hotel.
[19:58.320 --> 19:59.480]  And they'd say, okay, go right through.
[20:00.080 --> 20:09.220]  Using that, we were able to walk over to Broadway and see this little pen, this little enclosed area that was in front of where everybody else was standing.
[20:09.260 --> 20:10.960]  It was an area right in front of that.
[20:11.020 --> 20:15.700]  And we looked in there, and all these people just kind of, you know, wandering around, nobody really paying any attention to anything.
[20:15.980 --> 20:17.300]  A lot of people in wheelchairs.
[20:17.480 --> 20:19.680]  So we figured that was where the handicapped people...
[20:19.680 --> 20:20.280]  It was the handicapped viewing area?
[20:20.360 --> 20:21.440]  Were being, yeah, ushered.
[20:21.640 --> 20:21.860]  Okay.
[20:21.860 --> 20:24.580]  And other people, too, that were just kind of wandering around.
[20:24.720 --> 20:28.180]  And we later found out that that was the area for volunteers.
[20:28.780 --> 20:29.060]  Oh.
[20:29.680 --> 20:31.620]  And so we volunteered to go in there.
[20:31.840 --> 20:36.500]  And so we stayed for about four hours, and then kind of hung out, you know, and watched the whole thing happen.
[20:36.640 --> 20:37.540]  That's where you saw the ball drop.
[20:37.600 --> 20:38.320]  Yeah, yeah, it was great.
[20:38.340 --> 20:38.960]  How was the ball this year?
[20:39.480 --> 20:40.840]  I heard it was this big crystal.
[20:40.980 --> 20:41.900]  Made out of water for crisps.
[20:41.980 --> 20:46.220]  But you know, standing a couple hundred feet away, or miles away, as people did...
[20:46.220 --> 20:47.360]  No, you couldn't notice if it was made out of.
[20:47.360 --> 20:48.120]  Okay, I was just curious.
[20:48.340 --> 20:50.060]  It could have been made out of plastic for all we carried.
[20:50.060 --> 20:51.140]  I was just curious.
[20:51.300 --> 20:51.420]  Yeah.
[20:51.740 --> 20:53.100]  So it was very nice, though.
[20:53.280 --> 20:55.300]  The mood was extremely pleasant.
[20:55.560 --> 20:57.920]  They had countdowns every hour all around the world.
[20:58.440 --> 21:01.200]  And they played really good music from all around the world, so...
[21:01.200 --> 21:02.000]  Sounded like a lot of fun.
[21:02.020 --> 21:02.480]  It was great.
[21:02.640 --> 21:07.560]  It was the best way I could have imagined spending New Year's Eve, 1999 to 2000.
[21:07.560 --> 21:08.140]  All right.
[21:08.660 --> 21:09.680]  Well, I don't know.
[21:10.400 --> 21:12.160]  Looking back, I probably should have joined you.
[21:12.280 --> 21:12.700]  You should have.
[21:12.820 --> 21:12.980]  You should have.
[21:12.980 --> 21:20.960]  It was a risk issue with me, and I decided that it would be better that I be in Albuquerque or upstate, or, well, wind up Long Island.
[21:21.640 --> 21:25.020]  Long Island, I guess, was probably a good place to spend it as well.
[21:25.500 --> 21:25.720]  Yeah, it was nice.
[21:25.720 --> 21:26.580]  Okay, moving right along.
[21:26.580 --> 21:30.060]  We have a lot of things to talk about tonight.
[21:30.060 --> 21:32.340]  Here's a very quick story here.
[21:32.500 --> 21:41.500]  A computer hacker turned a German police internet page into a site promoting marijuana and pleasure toys for sadists, a spokesman said last Wednesday.
[21:41.600 --> 21:46.700]  I don't find this funny at all, said Aldebert Halt, a spokesman for the police union in the German state of Hessen.
[21:47.540 --> 21:48.500]  Their site was altered.
[21:48.620 --> 21:55.360]  The hacker, whose identity is unknown, changed information about the regional police offered on the website to advertise as a marijuana cafe and a sato shop.
[21:55.880 --> 21:58.460]  Police undid the changes later in the day.
[21:58.660 --> 21:59.620]  What do you think?
[21:59.620 --> 22:00.440]  Electric chair for that?
[22:00.620 --> 22:01.460]  That's what I...
[22:01.460 --> 22:02.480]  Well, why did the guy do it?
[22:02.760 --> 22:03.600]  Why'd the guy do it?
[22:03.800 --> 22:04.400]  I don't know.
[22:04.540 --> 22:05.380]  Why do people do anything?
[22:05.740 --> 22:06.660]  Well, that's kind of...
[22:06.660 --> 22:07.380]  It's mischief.
[22:07.640 --> 22:08.500]  Well, that's mischief.
[22:08.540 --> 22:09.040]  It's mischief.
[22:09.060 --> 22:10.460]  We define it as mischief.
[22:10.580 --> 22:12.580]  It's not a high treason type of a crime.
[22:12.720 --> 22:13.940]  It's not a high treason type of crime.
[22:14.020 --> 22:14.100]  Right.
[22:14.220 --> 22:15.740]  You wouldn't send somebody to jail for this.
[22:15.740 --> 22:18.760]  I sure hope this guy isn't gonna, like, try and fall back on saying, well, I'm a hacktivist.
[22:19.280 --> 22:20.180]  You know, I'm trying to...
[22:20.180 --> 22:21.140]  No, that's not hacktivism.
[22:21.260 --> 22:26.000]  The word of sadomasochism and marijuana uses.
[22:26.240 --> 22:27.560]  No, I don't think that's hacktivism.
[22:27.560 --> 22:28.960]  Well, I mean, that's mischief.
[22:29.100 --> 22:29.660]  It's vandalism.
[22:29.780 --> 22:31.540]  It's not something I would support.
[22:31.680 --> 22:40.800]  Well, yeah, I guess it's a degree of vandalism, but vandalism is a little bit more lasting than simply renaming a file, or copying a file.
[22:40.840 --> 22:41.780]  Well, you gotta paint over it.
[22:42.400 --> 22:44.040]  Yeah, It takes a second...
[22:44.040 --> 22:45.800]  No, it could also take a second .
[22:45.800 --> 22:49.700]  A degree of vandalism, and a vandal would not be sent to prison for vandalizing.
[22:49.800 --> 22:51.600]  Well, if you kick down someone's fence, that's also vandalizing...
[22:51.600 --> 22:54.340]  We're getting into a very long argument that we've had previously.
[22:54.340 --> 22:56.340]  We can get into this for many hours.
[22:56.520 --> 22:56.640]  Yeah.
[22:57.560 --> 23:01.720]  We had a guest on here a couple of months ago, actually.
[23:01.840 --> 23:03.080]  We should update people on this.
[23:03.160 --> 23:04.620]  Mackie's here, too, from California.
[23:04.740 --> 23:05.200]  Say hi, Mackie.
[23:05.340 --> 23:05.500]  Hey.
[23:06.180 --> 23:07.100]  Mackie's our webmaster.
[23:07.240 --> 23:11.640]  If you ever go to our website, you probably have seen his work on various places.
[23:12.140 --> 23:17.340]  And a couple of months ago, we had someone on the show who was playing around with an ankle bracelet.
[23:17.440 --> 23:17.960]  Remember that guy?
[23:18.120 --> 23:18.440]  Yes.
[23:18.500 --> 23:18.700]  Yeah.
[23:18.860 --> 23:19.840]  His name was Zale.
[23:20.140 --> 23:20.680]  How is he?
[23:20.980 --> 23:21.580]  Not good.
[23:21.740 --> 23:23.440]  Today, Zale was sentenced.
[23:25.340 --> 23:25.780]  What was it?
[23:25.860 --> 23:26.800]  I thought he was already sentenced.
[23:27.340 --> 23:31.060]  Well, they're always after him to sentence him for various things.
[23:31.140 --> 23:34.820]  This was hacking a site, I believe, two years ago when he was 14.
[23:35.160 --> 23:36.340]  And today he was sentenced.
[23:36.980 --> 23:37.540]  And get this.
[23:37.620 --> 23:39.620]  Maybe, Bernie, maybe you know something about this.
[23:39.940 --> 23:43.820]  It was a bizarre type of a thing that he was sentenced to.
[23:44.340 --> 23:45.900]  It was a... What was it, Mackie?
[23:45.940 --> 23:46.720]  A wagon train?
[23:46.900 --> 23:47.540]  Wagon train.
[23:47.700 --> 23:48.040]  What was it?
[23:48.440 --> 23:49.320]  By Vision Quest.
[23:49.420 --> 23:50.480]  Vision Quest wagon train.
[23:50.620 --> 23:52.580]  Bernie, have you ever heard of anything like that?
[23:52.580 --> 23:57.660]  In fact, I think there was a 60 Minutes segment on this many years ago about Vision Quest.
[23:58.100 --> 24:09.040]  It's kind of like you hear about these boot camps, where it's sort of like basic training with hard labor for adolescents.
[24:09.260 --> 24:12.140]  It's a shorter sentence, but it's more intense.
[24:12.400 --> 24:17.540]  But this Vision Quest thing is like a boot camp with a wagon train theme.
[24:17.960 --> 24:20.160]  I don't know if any viewers remember the movie.
[24:20.160 --> 24:22.180]  A wagon train theme.
[24:22.180 --> 24:22.320]  A wagon train.
[24:22.320 --> 24:22.980]  Wagon train.
[24:23.340 --> 24:23.800]  It's out.
[24:23.900 --> 24:24.360]  You go out.
[24:24.440 --> 24:27.060]  It's like in Colorado or somewhere out in the west.
[24:27.420 --> 24:32.260]  And they literally, you're on horseback with wagons.
[24:32.260 --> 24:34.160]  And you go out into the desert.
[24:35.800 --> 24:40.980]  It's kind of like that movie City Slickers with Billy Crystal and Jack Palance from a few years ago.
[24:40.980 --> 24:44.240]  You know, you're just thrown out in the wilderness.
[24:44.380 --> 24:45.440]  And you have to survive.
[24:45.840 --> 24:55.680]  Now, they have these, they have these, what do you call them, like washers or organizers, you know, older people who supervise these kids.
[24:55.680 --> 25:00.800]  And suppose, I guess they're armed or something to keep the, keep them getting from mutinying or whatever.
[25:01.520 --> 25:09.980]  And they have to go through this couple week thing out in the, out in the wilderness with rattlesnakes and tumbleweeds.
[25:10.100 --> 25:13.920]  And supposedly they're supposed to learn responsibility and how to survive.
[25:13.920 --> 25:27.020]  I've, I think it's ridiculous, but frankly, I would have much rather spent a, a few weeks out, out in the, you know, on a wagon train than, than, you know, a year and a half in a five by eight concrete cell.
[25:27.140 --> 25:29.140]  But where's a wagon train going to go in the middle of the winter?
[25:29.340 --> 25:33.300]  Because it just goes around in a, it does, it's aimless.
[25:33.460 --> 25:37.440]  It doesn't go to any particular, the point is not to get from point A to point B.
[25:37.440 --> 25:45.680]  It's, it's to, it's to get you out there for, for a few weeks to, to find yourself, to learn that life is bigger than your, than your crime.
[25:46.200 --> 25:48.120]  Well, that would be the vision quest aspect.
[25:48.220 --> 25:48.480]  Yes.
[25:48.920 --> 25:53.080]  Well, if anybody out there knows more about this or has ever been in something like this, we'd like to know more.
[25:53.480 --> 25:54.860]  This just happened today.
[25:55.360 --> 25:58.520]  Zale was, was sentenced to a year of this wagon train nonsense.
[25:58.860 --> 26:03.020]  So is he out of his, uh, homebound, uh, ankle collar?
[26:03.040 --> 26:06.740]  Yeah, he doesn't have the ankle bracelet anymore, I guess, unless they put some other kind of, uh, monitoring system.
[26:06.740 --> 26:11.460]  And if you recall, the thing I found that was, that was fascinating was we were talking to this kid, uh, several weeks ago.
[26:11.600 --> 26:21.480]  And, and even though he was being threatened with all these kinds of punishments for basically, you know, just accessing things, not hurting anything, but just being where he wasn't supposed to be, as a lot of hackers are.
[26:22.100 --> 26:24.900]  Uh, he, he kept his, uh, curiosity.
[26:24.980 --> 26:27.580]  He was trying to figure out how the ankle bracelet worked.
[26:27.700 --> 26:28.940]  And of course, the authorities hate that.
[26:29.040 --> 26:31.500]  They hate it when you question and try to figure things out.
[26:31.580 --> 26:33.460]  But he just would not let his spirit be crushed.
[26:33.460 --> 26:42.080]  Uh, let's hope that while he's out there in, uh, in, in, in the prairie or whatever, wherever they send him, uh, that his spirit does not get, uh, get, uh, squashed.
[26:42.300 --> 26:44.400]  I don't, I actually think it's going to be the exact opposite.
[26:44.600 --> 26:44.900]  You think?
[26:45.080 --> 26:48.360]  It's, it's, it's, the idea is to have a good experience and to, you know...
[26:48.360 --> 26:49.460]  You think this is a good thing?
[26:49.860 --> 26:55.320]  I, well, uh, I'm, well, what was, what was the charge related to this sentence?
[26:55.320 --> 27:00.400]  I believe it was simply accessing an ISP's website, uh, maybe, maybe hacking a website.
[27:00.700 --> 27:01.240]  Basically, basically a frivolous...
[27:01.240 --> 27:02.840]  And then he won't be doing that out there in the desert.
[27:02.920 --> 27:05.500]  No, he won't be, he won't be accessing any websites, that's for sure, but...
[27:05.500 --> 27:09.080]  Yes, but it was a frivolous kind of thing with no actual victims or anything.
[27:09.300 --> 27:11.060]  It could be good for him to be out on his own.
[27:11.060 --> 27:15.480]  It could be good for him, but you know what would be better would be going to college, you know, something he was planning on doing, you know, and...
[27:15.480 --> 27:32.100]  The only good that I can see, hopefully, coming of this is that perhaps it'll give him some time to, uh, to mature and stay out of trouble so that he will be able to go on and use computers later, um, but surely is not the optimal way of achieving that.
[27:32.180 --> 27:39.800]  Well, it's supposed to be a character-building kind of exercise, where you go out and, you know, you're under the stars and you gotta figure out who you are, what the hell you're doing.
[27:40.020 --> 27:42.820]  Under the stars is some guy pointing a gun at you if you don't do what he says.
[27:43.100 --> 27:44.120]  I doubt they're pointing a gun at you.
[27:44.120 --> 27:46.460]  Well, I want to hear more about this, uh, this program.
[27:46.720 --> 27:47.060]  Yeah, I'd like to.
[27:47.200 --> 27:59.880]  Because some of these boot camps are, are really quite abhorrent, um, some of them, parents send their children to voluntarily if they feel they can't handle them, and, uh, some of them involve intense physical labor.
[28:00.080 --> 28:09.500]  I've known more than one person who's had to go through these, and, uh, a lot of them are getting shut down one by one, uh, for child abuse charges.
[28:09.500 --> 28:17.440]  And because a lot of them involve a lot of, uh, uh, real mind games and, uh, brainwashing.
[28:17.640 --> 28:18.700]  Right, and when you consider...
[28:18.700 --> 28:21.700]  And a lot of the people who run them aren't licensed psychologists.
[28:21.960 --> 28:22.060]  Right.
[28:22.060 --> 28:29.300]  And there isn't necessarily adequate, um, mental health facilities or people, you know...
[28:29.300 --> 28:39.380]  A lot of them are being run by private corporations, and, uh, and these people are not qualified, but, but you have to understand, these are our nation's brightest kids that are being sent into these, these horrible...
[28:39.380 --> 28:40.880]  They aren't our nation's brightest kids.
[28:40.900 --> 28:48.080]  It's important to note that these bootcamps have not been shown to have any lower recidivism rates than standard punishment in a prison cell.
[28:48.180 --> 28:53.700]  Although, if I had my choice, I'd rather not be in a 5x8 concrete cell 23 hours a day.
[28:53.740 --> 28:55.540]  No, you can always think of something worse.
[28:55.540 --> 28:56.520]  That's, that's for sure.
[28:56.980 --> 29:01.980]  But, uh, just knowing this kid, having him on the air a couple of times, uh, he was, he was...
[29:01.980 --> 29:07.180]  All right, to give you an example, he was the kid who found the hospital, um, uh, 800, um, uh...
[29:07.180 --> 29:07.760]  Dictaphone.
[29:07.760 --> 29:09.880]  Yeah, dictaphone system that was wide open.
[29:10.420 --> 29:13.720]  Patients had all their information out there for anybody to call in, no password.
[29:14.340 --> 29:16.060]  Did he use that for any ill gain?
[29:16.180 --> 29:16.360]  No.
[29:16.520 --> 29:17.340]  He reported it.
[29:17.420 --> 29:21.140]  He reported it so that it would be exposed, so that it would be shut down, and it was.
[29:21.300 --> 29:23.740]  And I think that tells you something about where his mind was.
[29:23.880 --> 29:27.620]  So, I don't know, that's, uh, that's, that's what happened to him today.
[29:27.760 --> 29:28.900]  We'll be keeping updated on that.
[29:29.080 --> 29:35.040]  Now, a lot of, um, a lot of parallels I see to the Kevin Mitnick case, where we've been, um, we've been following this for five years now.
[29:35.040 --> 29:41.080]  Kevin Mitnick, of course, has been, uh, locked in prison since February 15th, 1995.
[29:41.080 --> 29:42.640]  I mean, think about it.
[29:42.900 --> 29:45.360]  Where were you in February of 1995?
[29:46.120 --> 29:50.480]  I mean, a lot has happened since then, and he has not been outside since.
[29:50.720 --> 29:51.860]  Not since that day.
[29:52.460 --> 29:56.340]  On January 21st of this year, he will finally be let out.
[29:56.460 --> 29:58.420]  But, he's not completely free yet.
[29:58.460 --> 30:03.120]  He'll, uh, he'll have to, uh, report to, uh, supervised release for three years.
[30:03.260 --> 30:04.540]  He'll have to stay away from computers.
[30:04.700 --> 30:07.840]  He isn't even allowed to talk about computers, give people advice, anything like that.
[30:07.840 --> 30:10.220]  All kinds of horrible conditions are being imposed on him.
[30:10.280 --> 30:11.600]  Yes, he'll be able to walk down the street.
[30:11.600 --> 30:12.300]  That's great.
[30:12.660 --> 30:16.000]  But, they're making life very, very difficult for him.
[30:16.180 --> 30:22.860]  So, uh, we're all going to have to help out to make sure things work out, so that he doesn't wind up being sent back there, which is what they want.
[30:23.020 --> 30:23.880]  They want you to fail.
[30:23.960 --> 30:24.840]  They want you to be sent back.
[30:24.980 --> 30:25.880]  That's how the system works.
[30:27.060 --> 30:31.480]  So, uh, we'll be keeping people updated on Kevin's, um, Kevin's latest news.
[30:31.680 --> 30:34.360]  Again, January 21st is when he will be released.
[30:35.200 --> 30:38.460]  And, uh, we'll hopefully be able to talk to him real soon.
[30:38.820 --> 30:40.320]  And he's being held where right now?
[30:40.420 --> 30:43.460]  He's being held in Lompoc, uh, which is in California.
[30:43.460 --> 30:44.640]  It's in the middle of nowhere.
[30:45.200 --> 30:51.080]  Uh, we're going to be heading out there in about two weeks, and, uh, seeing him on his last day, and then seeing him when he gets out.
[30:51.260 --> 30:53.720]  So, hopefully it'll be a happy occasion.
[30:53.940 --> 30:59.220]  Hopefully he'll, uh, he'll be able to survive in a world where he's not allowed to go near technology.
[30:59.720 --> 31:05.100]  And, unfortunately, that's turning into the, uh, the norm these days when you're sentenced for anything having to do with technology.
[31:05.340 --> 31:06.540]  Stay away from technology.
[31:06.680 --> 31:08.180]  Don't even be part of it.
[31:08.600 --> 31:10.980]  It's, it's, it's almost impossible to live life that way.
[31:11.560 --> 31:12.620]  Okay, more updates.
[31:12.900 --> 31:27.100]  Uh, as you recall, last week, we reported that, uh, we were being sued, uh, by the, uh, friendly folks over at the DVD, uh, consortium, or whatever you want to call them, uh, simply because we, uh, we posted something on our website a couple of months back when,
[31:27.100 --> 31:29.940]  uh, the, uh, DVD encryption was, was cracked.
[31:30.420 --> 31:36.120]  Uh, by doing that, by doing that, we, uh, supposedly ruined the Hollywood, uh, industry.
[31:36.440 --> 31:36.780]  Yes.
[31:36.840 --> 31:37.720]  And we broke the whole thing.
[31:37.820 --> 31:44.120]  I want to read a letter, and then, Mackie, you can give us an update as to what happened at the hearing last week, and, uh, what we have to look forward to.
[31:44.640 --> 31:46.920]  Uh, this is, uh, to, uh, 2600.
[31:47.000 --> 31:50.640]  Dear 2600, I did not, uh, receive, uh, the ECSS off your website.
[31:50.640 --> 31:55.460]  Uh, but, uh, I, I did receive it through another, um, another site.
[31:55.640 --> 31:57.700]  I haven't pirated any DVD movies.
[31:57.900 --> 32:00.140]  I don't send my friends the five gig or so movies.
[32:00.300 --> 32:00.960]  I mean, think about it.
[32:01.060 --> 32:01.520]  It's ludicrous.
[32:01.700 --> 32:07.500]  Who in God's name would send a five gigabyte file to a friend just so they don't pay $3 to Blockbuster to rent it?
[32:07.720 --> 32:08.400]  It's nuts.
[32:08.560 --> 32:09.480]  It's a total waste of time.
[32:09.940 --> 32:18.040]  Um, the, uh, the CSS has allowed myself to actually watch the four DVDs that I paid 25 bucks a pop for.
[32:18.040 --> 32:21.960]  Now I can watch Austin Powers on my computer, which I'm very thankful for.
[32:22.380 --> 32:25.100]  Uh, if anything, these people shouldn't be pressing charges.
[32:25.100 --> 32:31.840]  You should, because you have helped us legal people who don't have the money for 750 megahertz Athlon computers with a gig of RAM.
[32:32.240 --> 32:33.560]  All I have to say is thanks a million.
[32:33.660 --> 32:34.760]  I hope you get the charges dropped.
[32:34.900 --> 32:35.900]  We've gotten a lot of letters like this.
[32:36.000 --> 32:41.800]  A lot of people who, uh, realize why, uh, we posted the files that it's got nothing to do with pirating films.
[32:42.040 --> 32:45.080]  Unfortunately, these, these people who are after us don't seem to realize that.
[32:45.080 --> 32:45.560]  So what's the latest?
[32:45.660 --> 32:45.780]  Yes.
[32:45.900 --> 32:48.200]  Yeah, the response has been really overwhelming.
[32:48.500 --> 32:58.220]  Uh, I know we put out a, uh, a request for people to mirror the, the, uh, source code and the executables for DECSS.
[32:58.580 --> 33:03.960]  And we've gotten well over a hundred responses just after asking for it.
[33:04.100 --> 33:04.600]  We've gotten so many.
[33:04.700 --> 33:05.780]  We had to stop putting them up.
[33:05.900 --> 33:05.960]  Yeah.
[33:05.960 --> 33:06.900]  It got to be such a pain.
[33:07.060 --> 33:08.380]  Why are they asking for it at all?
[33:08.460 --> 33:09.920]  I mean, it's available on the website.
[33:10.000 --> 33:11.220]  Just download it and put it on your site.
[33:11.220 --> 33:11.840]  No, it's mirror.
[33:11.920 --> 33:14.660]  The idea is to mirror it in case we go down, in case we're taken down.
[33:14.840 --> 33:15.320]  Well, it's fine.
[33:15.460 --> 33:16.120]  But why do you have to ask?
[33:16.200 --> 33:17.020]  Just take it and put it up.
[33:17.140 --> 33:23.160]  Well, no, we, we, we requested that other people do it just to, to, to make the point that...
[33:23.160 --> 33:23.940]  So that we can list them.
[33:24.060 --> 33:24.940]  So that we can list them on our site.
[33:25.060 --> 33:40.100]  And that even if, yeah, we're, we've compiled a list of other people who have mirrored it and it's to really drive home the point that they can stop all 500 people that they named in their request for an injunction, but it won't do any good.
[33:40.740 --> 33:41.820]  So what happened last week?
[33:41.820 --> 33:51.460]  So what happened was last week they, they filed a motion requesting a temporary restraining order or a preliminary injunction.
[33:51.460 --> 34:05.820]  So this would essentially stop the, uh, the named defendants from distributing or linking to the DECSS information, um, pending an actual, uh, hearing.
[34:06.000 --> 34:10.900]  So this was, we were given about 72 hours notice saying that they wanted to stop it.
[34:11.120 --> 34:16.020]  Well, the hearing was last week and the judge denied it.
[34:16.020 --> 34:22.200]  The, uh, thanks in, in a large part to the efforts of, uh, the electronic freedom frontier.
[34:22.860 --> 34:23.680]  Frontier foundation.
[34:23.800 --> 34:24.360]  Frontier foundation.
[34:24.360 --> 34:24.820]  Frontier foundation, sorry.
[34:24.960 --> 34:29.900]  The EFF who provided pro bono counsel and is now putting together a legal team.
[34:30.360 --> 34:32.960]  Um, a whole lot of people banded together.
[34:33.140 --> 34:38.100]  Thanks in no, no small part to the people who sent us the threat because they, they copied everybody's name onto the email.
[34:38.240 --> 34:39.440]  So we were able to contact everybody.
[34:40.100 --> 34:44.940]  Um, so, so what we have here now is, um, an order from the judge.
[34:44.940 --> 34:45.420]  Mm-hmm.
[34:45.680 --> 34:58.600]  Which was actually, uh, prepared by the plaintiff, which isn't uncommon that attached to such a request for an injunction, they, uh, give a proposed order for the judge to just sign off on, which happened a lot in the Mitnick case.
[34:58.760 --> 34:58.940]  Mm-hmm.
[34:59.380 --> 35:05.400]  Um, so what the judge did here is struck out large portions of it and wrote denied over it.
[35:05.560 --> 35:06.240]  Yeah, big X's.
[35:06.280 --> 35:12.600]  But what we get to see here is a little bit more specifics on exactly what the DVD CCA wanted to impose.
[35:12.600 --> 35:30.540]  So, among the things that they wanted to stop us from doing is, quote, besides just distributing it, knowingly linking to other websites which disclose, distribute, or link to any proprietary information or property or trade secrets.
[35:30.540 --> 35:40.340]  So, not only would it be, not only would we be barred from linking to the program, we would be barred from linking to any site that links to it, that links to it.
[35:40.520 --> 35:42.040]  So, Yahoo and any other sites.
[35:42.040 --> 35:44.420]  These guys have no sense of reality at all, do they?
[35:44.420 --> 35:45.740]  That's how the web works.
[35:45.900 --> 35:46.060]  Uh-huh.
[35:46.060 --> 35:47.480]  Everything is linked together.
[35:47.480 --> 35:48.020]  Yeah.
[35:48.800 --> 35:49.560]  Um...
[35:49.560 --> 36:02.320]  And so, although this is denied, Friday after next, on the January 14th, there's a hearing for a full injunction.
[36:02.580 --> 36:08.140]  So, this would, you know, this was the temporary one, now we have some time, and there will be another hearing.
[36:08.240 --> 36:09.080]  So, this isn't over?
[36:09.240 --> 36:10.720]  No, not by any means.
[36:10.720 --> 36:17.140]  In fact, we came up here fully prepared to be served today, you know, because there's people being served all over the world with these stupid notices.
[36:17.380 --> 36:20.520]  Today and yesterday, many of the co-defendants...
[36:20.520 --> 36:22.260]  Anybody out there in the lobby wants to serve us?
[36:22.380 --> 36:24.160]  Come in and serve us right now, you know.
[36:24.960 --> 36:49.040]  There's dozens of defendants here, including about 500 John Doe's, or just URLs that they've cited, including among the John Doe's who were cited for merely linking to it, are sites like Slashdot, which is a large news site, and Deja.com, which just posts Usenet articles.
[36:49.360 --> 36:55.240]  And, but conspicuously, they didn't link, they didn't to Wired that we know of.
[36:55.920 --> 36:56.140]  Mm-hmm.
[36:56.700 --> 36:59.060]  They linked to the files at the same time.
[36:59.060 --> 37:05.440]  So now, named in this, from 2600, is you, Emanuel Goldstein, as an individual.
[37:05.780 --> 37:07.580]  Yeah, I thought that was interesting that they...
[37:07.580 --> 37:15.120]  Not 2600 Enterprises Incorporated, which, for the most part, which is responsible for the website, if anything is.
[37:15.120 --> 37:16.500]  So they're trying to pin this all on me.
[37:16.700 --> 37:19.080]  Yeah, presumably, because you're...
[37:20.000 --> 37:20.640]  I have nothing...
[37:20.640 --> 37:21.940]  I tried to stop it.
[37:21.940 --> 37:23.840]  I tried to stop it, but as you know...
[37:23.840 --> 37:24.820]  I fought tooth and nail.
[37:24.820 --> 37:31.040]  Our website is run by a bunch of Pakistani nationals in a foreign country, and we have absolutely no control over it.
[37:31.100 --> 37:31.960]  That's just the way it is.
[37:32.060 --> 37:32.380]  I'm sorry.
[37:32.600 --> 37:34.500]  We're literally at their mercy here.
[37:34.820 --> 37:34.940]  Yeah.
[37:35.300 --> 37:45.640]  So, but even if, even if this was granted, even though it's just your name, here is the phrase that they used to cover the Pakistani nationals.
[37:46.200 --> 38:00.280]  It would be against, quote, defendants, their principals, agents, servants, employees, attorneys, successors, and assigned representatives, and all other persons acting in concert and participation with them.
[38:01.560 --> 38:06.320]  So, everyone who's ever participated in this would be covered by the injunction.
[38:06.480 --> 38:08.740]  We're all going down in a sinking boat together, I guess.
[38:08.740 --> 38:19.860]  And finally, one last quirky thing about this order is, there's a lot of fill in the blanks here for dates and things for the judge to fill in from the proposed order.
[38:20.040 --> 38:20.260]  Uh-huh.
[38:20.740 --> 38:27.780]  And they were hoping for, well, in the clause that says, when they have to serve us with the papers.
[38:27.800 --> 38:28.620]  Is that a process server?
[38:28.800 --> 38:29.880]  It looks a lot like one.
[38:30.140 --> 38:31.460]  It looks like a goon, yes.
[38:31.640 --> 38:32.520]  What do they look like, anyway?
[38:32.900 --> 38:34.060]  Well, it could be a sheriff.
[38:34.080 --> 38:35.800]  It could be a private investigator.
[38:35.800 --> 38:37.300]  It could be a...
[38:37.300 --> 38:39.440]  There's somebody wearing a cowboy hat in the lobby there.
[38:39.560 --> 38:40.460]  I fear cowboys.
[38:40.640 --> 38:40.800]  Yeah.
[38:40.980 --> 38:41.360]  It's scary.
[38:41.480 --> 38:41.700]  Okay.
[38:42.060 --> 38:44.600]  So, the date here for when they have to serve us by.
[38:44.800 --> 38:45.040]  Uh-huh.
[38:45.320 --> 38:50.800]  The lawyers had entered January blank 2000, hoping to get it into this week.
[38:52.000 --> 38:52.480]  Uh-huh.
[38:52.480 --> 38:57.660]  And the judge crossed out January, wrote December 31st, and left 2000 there.
[38:58.360 --> 39:06.120]  So, although the court date is next week, they have until the end of the year to serve us with the papers.
[39:06.360 --> 39:07.660]  That's a Y2K issue right there.
[39:08.020 --> 39:08.780]  How about that?
[39:09.300 --> 39:09.620]  Okay.
[39:09.720 --> 39:11.580]  Well, we're looking forward to being served.
[39:12.000 --> 39:13.480]  Are you supposed to tip the guy when they serve you?
[39:13.840 --> 39:14.400]  Does anybody know?
[39:14.820 --> 39:15.140]  No.
[39:15.280 --> 39:19.120]  I guess you just escort him to the door once he's done serving you.
[39:19.260 --> 39:19.660]  Oh, okay.
[39:19.780 --> 39:21.980]  Well, I'd kind of like to hang out with the guy and find out what makes him tick.
[39:21.980 --> 39:22.540]  Well, you can do that if you like.
[39:22.760 --> 39:22.900]  Yeah.
[39:22.980 --> 39:23.900]  I have no problem with that.
[39:23.920 --> 39:24.740]  Yeah, you want a cup of coffee?
[39:24.980 --> 39:25.180]  Yeah.
[39:25.660 --> 39:26.300]  Well, okay.
[39:26.460 --> 39:34.400]  Just as a public service to the servers out there, if you have trouble reaching us, and you probably won't find us tonight because, for all you know, we're on tape.
[39:35.300 --> 39:37.240]  Wouldn't that be embarrassing if you came up here and we were on tape?
[39:38.120 --> 39:46.820]  But we do have a 2600 meeting this Friday, and that will be taking place at Citicorp Center, which is located at 53rd, between 3rd and Lexington.
[39:46.820 --> 39:48.840]  We meet there in the lobby area.
[39:49.260 --> 39:50.020]  The building with the slanty roof.
[39:50.420 --> 39:51.860]  Yeah, the building with the slanty roof.
[39:52.080 --> 39:53.820]  If you have trouble, just ask anybody.
[39:53.940 --> 39:54.700]  They'll direct you to it.
[39:55.760 --> 40:01.000]  Anybody you need to serve will probably be in the lobby area where all the security guards hang out.
[40:01.640 --> 40:09.080]  The thing is, we're not sure if we're going to be in New York, Philadelphia, Buffalo, and there's also a possibility we'll be in Kansas City.
[40:09.240 --> 40:13.160]  So, just to be safe, have process servers go to all those sites.
[40:13.920 --> 40:15.020]  That's my advice.
[40:15.220 --> 40:18.660]  Because, you know, we don't want to, you know, clog up the wheels of justice here.
[40:18.920 --> 40:20.640]  We want things to move smoothly.
[40:21.260 --> 40:21.780]  All right.
[40:21.860 --> 40:24.300]  That out of the way, here's something really exciting.
[40:24.300 --> 40:26.480]  Something that's happening right here in New York City.
[40:26.620 --> 40:29.220]  Something that a lot of people don't know about.
[40:29.480 --> 40:33.360]  You know, there's a Broadway show called Y2K.
[40:33.620 --> 40:33.840]  Really?
[40:34.000 --> 40:34.160]  Yeah.
[40:34.880 --> 40:37.400]  It's all about hackers and things like that.
[40:37.760 --> 40:43.400]  And let me read you a little bit from The New Yorker, which came out just a little while ago.
[40:46.860 --> 40:51.960]  There's a young cyber subversive in a brooding leather jacket.
[40:51.960 --> 40:54.340]  His name is Kostra Astragon.
[40:54.640 --> 40:55.980]  I believe I'm pronouncing that right.
[40:56.740 --> 41:00.780]  Played by Eric Jensen, known to FBI men who are pursuing him by his aliases.
[41:01.660 --> 41:02.640]  Because I can.
[41:02.860 --> 41:03.500]  I see you.
[41:03.620 --> 41:04.180]  Various other ones.
[41:04.180 --> 41:07.900]  I am everywhere, on the outskirts of your mind, in the ether and the darkness.
[41:08.320 --> 41:14.140]  He confides to us as the play opens, and when I'm on the hunt, as relentless as the wrath of God.
[41:14.540 --> 41:19.260]  He has the power to recreate the virtual universe at will in his own demented image.
[41:19.460 --> 41:24.000]  Unseen by his victims on stage, he is a techno demiurge who speaks only to us.
[41:24.000 --> 41:25.640]  I can see all of you.
[41:28.000 --> 41:32.960]  And he's drawn to invade the lives of a suave Park Avenue couple called the Elliotts.
[41:33.060 --> 41:36.760]  Two pillars of respectability whom he taunts and finally topples.
[41:37.720 --> 41:43.780]  And by the end of the play, he has stolen the Elliotts' bank accounts, their faith in each other, even their bloodline.
[41:43.780 --> 41:50.000]  He's written himself into Joseph's story as his long-lost father, and has falsified medical records to prove it.
[41:50.240 --> 41:58.420]  They are trapped both in a cyber fiction, and as we see in the fictions they've built around their marriage, and there's no escape from either.
[41:59.020 --> 42:06.160]  Well, we have with us in the studio today, the person who wrote this Broadway show.
[42:06.620 --> 42:07.180]  Off-Broadway.
[42:07.760 --> 42:08.520]  I'm sorry, what?
[42:08.680 --> 42:09.300]  Off-Broadway.
[42:09.440 --> 42:09.920]  Off-Broadway.
[42:10.000 --> 42:10.600]  It's off-Broadway?
[42:10.760 --> 42:10.900]  Yes.
[42:11.060 --> 42:12.140]  It's close to Broadway.
[42:12.140 --> 42:12.820]  It's close to Broadway.
[42:12.900 --> 42:13.120]  Okay.
[42:13.540 --> 42:15.420]  Arthur Kopit, who has written this.
[42:15.520 --> 42:20.760]  And I understand, from what I've heard from various people, is that you actually use this radio program as part of your research.
[42:21.200 --> 42:24.200]  I don't know if I should acknowledge that, because I might be served.
[42:25.380 --> 42:26.780]  I might or I might not have.
[42:27.640 --> 42:29.080]  I certainly did research.
[42:29.460 --> 42:33.480]  And the research certainly linked at various times to people here.
[42:33.900 --> 42:34.160]  Wow.
[42:34.560 --> 42:35.680]  That's kind of scary, isn't it?
[42:35.740 --> 42:36.180]  That's kind of scary.
[42:36.360 --> 42:36.820]  You can't hide.
[42:37.440 --> 42:40.420]  Well now, tell us your views of what hackers are.
[42:40.420 --> 42:44.600]  Are hackers this menace, this evil type of thing like this main character is?
[42:44.680 --> 42:45.060]  No, no, no.
[42:45.060 --> 42:45.180]  No, no, no.
[42:45.560 --> 42:45.580]  No, no, no.
[42:46.180 --> 42:50.420]  He's a particular person and I had not met...
[42:50.420 --> 43:16.300]  I had a purpose which was not to attack hackers or to really directly address that, but to explore the issue which to me is the real year 2000 problem, which has to do with the manipulation of data and information, especially to the degrees to which it invades people's privacy,
[43:16.400 --> 43:25.920]  which you can coerce the simplest situation, people going to doctors knowing that their medical records can be used against them, can be sold.
[43:27.920 --> 43:49.760]  The play came about, oddly enough, from my being outraged at Kenneth Starr's going after Monica Lewinsky trying to subpoena her book records, what books she had bought, and I thought that that was a major threat and that our freedom had to do with our privacy.
[43:49.760 --> 43:51.900]  That privacy was at the core of freedom.
[43:53.080 --> 44:03.400]  And I began to think about other ways in which we could all be vulnerable and could be surveilled, could be watched, observed, and pressured.
[44:04.420 --> 44:20.560]  When this play was done last year in Louisville, I mentioned to a director who was down there and was connected to a university, just think of the pressure that could be put on someone on the tenure track and he blanched and had to sit down and said, I'll talk to you later about it,
[44:20.640 --> 44:35.720]  and basically saved his life and his career, not from a hacker, but just from information put onto a website claiming that he had harassed a girl who had been a student and she was, of course, ultimately connected to his rival on the tenure track.
[44:35.860 --> 44:53.180]  And he was only saved because somebody in the tenure committee who knew something about computers said, I believe you, and went into the data records at the university and found phone records that showed that this professor who denied he had ever known this girl had in fact called her.
[44:53.420 --> 44:57.220]  And so that was a simple way in which people could be pressured.
[44:58.120 --> 45:10.500]  So the play deals with really a conflict between someone whose view of reality comes as a virtual reality.
[45:10.620 --> 45:12.520]  I can change reality to suit me.
[45:12.740 --> 45:15.620]  And when I don't like the reality, I'll change it in another way.
[45:16.260 --> 45:29.420]  I suppose to someone else who has made assumptions about what is real, what is solid, what is verifiable or reliable about his life and suddenly finds that he's under attack for no known motive.
[45:29.760 --> 45:32.920]  This hacker basically does it because he can.
[45:33.380 --> 45:37.840]  There may be other reasons that he does it, but he does this.
[45:38.000 --> 45:40.940]  The play ends before you know actually what will happen.
[45:41.040 --> 45:43.040]  I'm working on a movie version which carries it farther.
[45:43.040 --> 46:09.740]  What I wanted was to examine what happens if somebody goes after you and they decide, and they're very good at this, and they're able to go not only into your records but to change records that were there, go back and create an entire new history for you that is put into place very swiftly and can show that on a particular date you were in a city that you never thought you would be in,
[46:09.740 --> 46:14.580]  doing things that you never wanted anyone to believe you did because you never did.
[46:14.820 --> 46:18.060]  And included in there are some things that you did you didn't want to know about.
[46:19.300 --> 46:24.780]  And legally they probably can't get you because they know that some of this stuff is suspect.
[46:24.780 --> 46:32.800]  But your career is over, and your life is over, and what is your life really about ultimately, and what do we know about ourselves?
[46:32.980 --> 46:43.140]  And on one level, from what you talk about, it certainly would speak towards the need for encryption so that one can protect certain aspects of your life.
[46:43.140 --> 46:57.120]  And also to know that if there are accusations that come out, that it's even more important not to believe that because the evidence seems to be there, photographs are there, videotapes are there.
[46:57.620 --> 47:00.780]  This could be, you know, not real.
[47:00.940 --> 47:06.060]  So it's not about... it's certainly not about year Y2K as a data management problem.
[47:06.060 --> 47:24.360]  By the way, one of the things that I... we're talking about it being over, it seems to me that one of the consequences of this not having been caught early enough is that in order to fix the problem, every major corporation in the world has opened up its code to people that they don't know about in order to fix the code.
[47:24.440 --> 47:37.700]  Well, you can get into the code anyway and find back doors, but how much is there now that has been corrupted that has nothing to do with crashing the system, but it's just a lot of different eavesdroppers watching what the company is doing.
[47:37.740 --> 47:45.620]  So the repercussions of having opened up your files, your code, to outsiders will be a significant...
[47:45.620 --> 47:47.840]  Because of a sense of panic that you have to or...
[47:47.840 --> 47:48.500]  Yes, we have to.
[47:48.680 --> 47:49.080]  And who are these people?
[47:49.140 --> 47:53.560]  Oh, do you know how to read COBOL or do you know how... do you know assembly language?
[47:53.620 --> 47:56.200]  And so we've just gotten some people in to fix the code.
[47:56.400 --> 47:57.560]  Well, what else have they fixed?
[47:57.580 --> 48:00.120]  And now it's closed up, but you don't know what you have.
[48:00.200 --> 48:03.520]  So the reliability of information seems significant.
[48:03.520 --> 48:11.520]  You seem to think that the real threat comes from our blind faith in technology, in relying on things as evidence.
[48:11.520 --> 48:15.280]  I think that the threat comes from not recognizing what can happen.
[48:15.420 --> 48:17.800]  It doesn't mean close down the technology.
[48:17.880 --> 48:18.240]  You can't.
[48:18.320 --> 48:20.180]  The genie's out of the bottle and it's extraordinary.
[48:23.860 --> 48:26.240]  But it needs to be looked at.
[48:27.180 --> 48:33.380]  The world that we're in, what we depend upon, used to be things that you could hold in your hand.
[48:33.740 --> 48:35.400]  You could hold your money in your hand.
[48:35.480 --> 48:36.720]  You had the money in a bank.
[48:36.860 --> 48:38.820]  You wrote down your information.
[48:39.380 --> 48:41.780]  Now it's much more convenient to put it onto a computer.
[48:41.780 --> 48:42.860]  It goes into a data bank.
[48:43.000 --> 48:44.960]  You believe that you're protected.
[48:46.360 --> 48:49.920]  But in fact, what you are counting on may not be.
[48:50.020 --> 48:51.800]  I can have a photograph of your house.
[48:52.060 --> 48:55.500]  I can change... I can put anybody in that house and there's a photograph.
[48:55.620 --> 48:57.300]  It will look exactly as if it was there.
[48:57.300 --> 49:06.600]  So what, even in a legal sense, what is reliable evidence?
[49:06.860 --> 49:13.300]  I think we're in a period of time where no one quite knows what this new world is like.
[49:13.720 --> 49:17.380]  What is solid and what is plastic?
[49:17.640 --> 49:19.060]  What can be molded?
[49:19.660 --> 49:23.280]  And so the heart to play is political.
[49:23.940 --> 49:31.420]  It's really about the possibilities of control in ways that we don't understand towards fascism.
[49:31.500 --> 49:42.500]  If I know how everybody out there, if I can tell what they click onto, what they buy, what they do, what they shouldn't have looked at, I can begin to intimidate them when they want jobs in very simple ways.
[49:42.560 --> 49:44.280]  And I can get them to vote the way I want.
[49:44.380 --> 49:46.020]  I can know how they're thinking.
[49:46.660 --> 49:49.700]  So it's, as you know, a 1984 kind of issue.
[49:49.700 --> 49:56.620]  We're speaking with Arthur Kopit, who is the author of Y2K, an off-Broadway show currently playing here in New York.
[49:57.220 --> 50:02.200]  We're also here with Mackie from California, Isaac here from Queens, and Bernie S.
[50:02.340 --> 50:04.020]  from Philadelphia on the phone.
[50:04.280 --> 50:06.940]  We'll be taking your phone calls, 212-209-2900.
[50:07.040 --> 50:08.940]  We'll try to squeeze in as many as we can.
[50:09.040 --> 50:10.460]  Let me just ask Arthur one question.
[50:10.720 --> 50:16.240]  What are some of the reactions that you've seen from people who have gone to your play?
[50:16.400 --> 50:18.440]  What kind of precautions do they wind up taking afterwards?
[50:18.440 --> 50:25.800]  The most interesting are from a lot of the Manhattan Theater Club's older audience who have been saying, well, I should never have had a computer, and I know I shouldn't have a computer.
[50:26.160 --> 50:32.440]  But they seem to see what to me is the essential issue, which is it's about human beings.
[50:32.440 --> 50:34.160]  It's the humanness that's at the center.
[50:34.440 --> 50:38.160]  And that you can't throw... they know you can't put away the technology.
[50:39.720 --> 50:45.440]  But focus on what to me is the real issue, is how do we know who we are and what do we value?
[50:46.140 --> 50:49.720]  And what do we think is important in life?
[50:49.780 --> 50:51.300]  It's not a play about technology.
[50:51.300 --> 50:56.860]  It's a play about people who view themselves in some kind of context.
[50:56.860 --> 50:58.400]  And that context is changing.
[50:59.420 --> 51:01.500]  So the response has been very exciting.
[51:01.880 --> 51:03.420]  They're scared of the hacker.
[51:03.740 --> 51:05.240]  He's a wonderful actor.
[51:05.340 --> 51:07.340]  Eric Jensen is astonishing.
[51:08.180 --> 51:09.600]  Because he's playful.
[51:09.860 --> 51:12.560]  He's excited by what he's doing.
[51:12.780 --> 51:16.900]  And what's scary is that there's really no moral concern for him.
[51:16.900 --> 51:21.020]  He's not like the people around me.
[51:21.100 --> 51:23.780]  And it's a dangerous thing.
[51:23.800 --> 51:25.460]  It's a loaded gun that he has.
[51:25.560 --> 51:28.300]  He knows... he's very good at what he does.
[51:29.480 --> 51:30.780]  Okay, let's take some phone calls.
[51:30.840 --> 51:32.280]  212-209-2900.
[51:33.480 --> 51:34.060]  Good evening.
[51:34.160 --> 51:34.580]  You're on the air.
[51:35.260 --> 51:38.860]  Hey guys, how come no mention of Bell Atlantic going into the long distance business?
[51:38.920 --> 51:46.000]  Well, because, you know, we've got so many things to talk about tonight that one company's expansion just somehow didn't seem to be as important as all these other issues.
[51:46.000 --> 51:48.480]  But, yeah, they're going into long distance, I think, what, starting tomorrow?
[51:48.700 --> 51:49.700]  I believe so, yeah.
[51:49.900 --> 51:50.140]  Wow.
[51:50.320 --> 51:51.840]  I can't tell you how thrilled I am.
[51:53.020 --> 51:57.440]  Well, I like those James Earl Jones commercials where he's like, welcome to Bell Atlantic.
[51:57.640 --> 51:58.320]  Yeah, yeah.
[51:58.940 --> 52:00.200]  Any questions for our guests?
[52:00.340 --> 52:01.160]  No, I'm afraid not.
[52:01.240 --> 52:01.400]  I'll let you go.
[52:01.760 --> 52:02.920]  Thanks for calling.
[52:03.040 --> 52:03.440]  Let's go over here.
[52:03.520 --> 52:03.820]  Good evening.
[52:03.920 --> 52:04.380]  You're on the air.
[52:05.840 --> 52:06.560]  Speak up, please.
[52:06.640 --> 52:06.960]  Go ahead.
[52:07.600 --> 52:08.220]  Hi, Emmanuel.
[52:08.300 --> 52:08.800]  Hi, everyone.
[52:09.100 --> 52:10.800]  I have a couple of things on my mind.
[52:10.960 --> 52:13.820]  First, I'd like to say that Y2K sucked.
[52:13.820 --> 52:16.020]  I mean, no mass suicides, no...
[52:16.020 --> 52:16.740]  Not the play.
[52:16.920 --> 52:18.300]  You mean just the Y2K...
[52:18.300 --> 52:18.820]  Oh, no.
[52:18.860 --> 52:19.180]  I'm sorry.
[52:19.200 --> 52:20.340]  No, not the play, of course.
[52:20.440 --> 52:21.260]  I mean the real thing.
[52:21.620 --> 52:21.980]  Right.
[52:22.160 --> 52:28.720]  About the play, actually, I think you bring up a very good point about all the Y2K code that's being changed.
[52:29.480 --> 52:39.220]  I mean, you know, they sent some code to India, and I'm sure that the government didn't pass up this, like, advantage to, like, at least implant something in it.
[52:39.500 --> 52:51.160]  And, I mean, you know, I know it's probably been sent to other foreign countries as well, and you're right about, you know, how everything is, like, you know, you can't implant things into it and, you know, just kind of track it along.
[52:51.160 --> 52:53.280]  There's a lot of sniffing and copying going on, I'm sure.
[52:53.520 --> 52:54.140]  Yeah, exactly.
[52:54.460 --> 52:54.600]  Yeah.
[52:55.780 --> 52:56.600]  Okay, anything else?
[52:57.160 --> 52:59.520]  Actually, yeah, about that kid that was sentenced.
[52:59.740 --> 52:59.980]  Mm-hmm.
[53:00.240 --> 53:02.060]  I'm sorry, what was the thing he was sentenced to?
[53:02.460 --> 53:04.560]  He was sentenced to the, what was it, Bernie?
[53:04.940 --> 53:05.660]  Vision Quest.
[53:05.800 --> 53:07.080]  Vision Quest wagon train.
[53:07.460 --> 53:07.660]  Yes.
[53:07.960 --> 53:09.060]  That sounds absurd.
[53:09.920 --> 53:14.840]  I'm sure that once he gets there, he'll actually wish that he was in a five-by-five cell.
[53:15.620 --> 53:18.280]  You know, I think that it's going to be hell for him.
[53:18.540 --> 53:19.200]  I'm pretty sure.
[53:19.280 --> 53:21.000]  I mean, for a year, to be on horseback.
[53:21.200 --> 53:22.300]  Thanks for your optimism.
[53:22.660 --> 53:22.780]  Yeah.
[53:23.060 --> 53:25.160]  Well, one thing, we're not going to forget about him.
[53:25.160 --> 53:26.200]  We're going to keep in touch with him.
[53:26.320 --> 53:31.660]  However, it's going to be very hard to write to him, obviously, since he'll be on the road, but we'll see what we can do.
[53:31.820 --> 53:33.120]  Maybe we'll intercept the wagon train.
[53:33.460 --> 53:33.480]  Yeah.
[53:33.480 --> 53:35.680]  Hey, if they're going on public property, right?
[53:35.840 --> 53:38.260]  You know, maybe we should have our own camping trip.
[53:39.040 --> 53:39.960]  We'll see about that.
[53:40.440 --> 53:40.780]  All right.
[53:40.860 --> 53:41.820]  Thanks for calling.
[53:41.980 --> 53:42.120]  All right.
[53:42.920 --> 53:45.760]  I'm sure they were going to say Happy New Year, but Happy New Year to you, too.
[53:46.560 --> 53:48.080]  Let's take a call over here.
[53:48.740 --> 53:49.220]  Good evening.
[53:49.300 --> 53:49.780]  You're on the air.
[53:51.660 --> 53:52.320]  Yes, you are.
[53:52.420 --> 53:52.720]  Speak up.
[53:53.780 --> 53:54.100]  Hello.
[53:55.160 --> 53:55.800]  Hi, Emmanuel.
[53:56.000 --> 53:56.160]  Hey, guys.
[53:56.240 --> 53:56.600]  How's it going?
[53:56.820 --> 53:57.400]  How are you?
[53:57.920 --> 54:02.740]  I actually have a comment on the writer of the play you guys have on there, Ted.
[54:03.000 --> 54:03.180]  Okay.
[54:04.200 --> 54:14.380]  I mean, do any of you guys think that a lot of this negative portrayal of hackers is just, you know, the only thing we're seeing and the only thing that people are focusing on mainly?
[54:15.380 --> 54:22.280]  And as far as it being an original idea or something that hasn't been put out there, I think that's, you know, not the case here.
[54:22.280 --> 54:25.360]  Well, you're pointing out, what, films like The Net and things like that?
[54:25.380 --> 54:25.780]  Yeah.
[54:25.960 --> 54:26.280]  Well, yeah.
[54:26.460 --> 54:27.100]  Yeah, basically.
[54:27.300 --> 54:30.600]  Films in which we always see, you know, the same stereotypical hacker.
[54:30.800 --> 54:34.240]  I mean, even on the Kevin Mitnick movie, whether that's coming out or not.
[54:34.340 --> 54:34.720]  Takedown.
[54:34.960 --> 54:35.200]  Right.
[54:35.440 --> 54:35.720]  Right.
[54:35.940 --> 54:43.780]  And The Net, the movie Hackers, you know, I mean, it's more or less the same exact character, the same exact act.
[54:43.780 --> 54:45.380]  Let's ask the author.
[54:45.500 --> 54:46.740]  Is it the same exact character?
[54:47.120 --> 54:47.680]  And how is it different?
[54:47.680 --> 54:48.180]  I saw them.
[54:48.300 --> 54:49.800]  I'm not bored by my play.
[54:49.860 --> 54:51.120]  I'm bored by Hackers.
[54:52.760 --> 54:53.880]  I wasn't...
[54:53.880 --> 54:57.000]  I mean, the film Hackers.
[54:59.300 --> 54:59.860]  He...
[54:59.860 --> 55:06.700]  I can only say that he's a very specific person, and I think it's involved with identity.
[55:07.080 --> 55:11.060]  And it wasn't a play about hacking.
[55:11.060 --> 55:16.700]  It's a play about what we know and how you can manipulate what you know.
[55:16.840 --> 55:28.920]  And what this hacker does, and it's never in the play whatsoever put forward as what hackers do and anyone can do, could have been done in other ways.
[55:29.140 --> 55:31.140]  You could have manipulated people's lives.
[55:31.280 --> 55:33.360]  You could have planted false claims.
[55:34.560 --> 55:47.940]  What is, to me, the center of the play is the way in which the central characters are undermined swiftly and quickly, because they've depended upon aspects of their lives that are very quickly changeable.
[55:48.080 --> 55:48.620]  It's a storm.
[55:48.840 --> 55:50.120]  It's as if a storm is...
[55:50.120 --> 55:50.700]  So it's less...
[55:50.700 --> 55:52.460]  I think, by the way, there's a lot of very interesting information.
[55:52.460 --> 55:58.600]  The article in the New York Times on Loft certainly showed a complex and, you know, an other side.
[55:58.600 --> 56:03.040]  I think that there is now an image that hackers are not bad.
[56:03.200 --> 56:09.140]  And in fact, the separation between hackers and crackers and white and black is coming out.
[56:09.140 --> 56:15.800]  I think the point is that it's less about the evilness of hackers and more about the fragility of all of us.
[56:15.920 --> 56:16.560]  Yeah, it's not about...
[56:16.560 --> 56:18.800]  For me, it's not about the evilness of hackers.
[56:18.820 --> 56:19.880]  I don't think this person is evil.
[56:19.920 --> 56:21.880]  I think he's amoral and, therefore, not...
[56:21.880 --> 56:29.080]  He is not conscious of doing anything whatsoever other than playing around with the system.
[56:29.100 --> 56:32.580]  But do people walk out of the play saying, hey, hackers have to be stopped?
[56:32.600 --> 56:33.160]  Not at all.
[56:33.160 --> 56:34.360]  No, no, no, no, no.
[56:34.460 --> 56:38.060]  And I'm very... and I'm pleased that the issue is not a...
[56:38.060 --> 56:41.380]  Writing a play about technology would be uninteresting, I think.
[56:42.340 --> 56:44.160]  It is about the...
[56:44.980 --> 56:46.720]  He's almost like an Iago.
[56:46.860 --> 56:48.460]  And this is just a method that he uses.
[56:48.880 --> 56:49.340]  Mm-hmm.
[56:49.900 --> 56:51.240]  It's about imagination.
[56:51.280 --> 56:52.280]  It's about fiction.
[56:52.440 --> 56:54.480]  There's a central line which he quotes from Flaubert.
[56:54.640 --> 56:56.100]  Everything you invent is true.
[56:56.300 --> 56:59.480]  And he takes that to an extreme extent.
[57:00.120 --> 57:00.340]  Okay.
[57:00.400 --> 57:01.580]  Let's see if we can squeeze in another call.
[57:01.660 --> 57:01.960]  Good evening.
[57:02.060 --> 57:02.460]  You're on the air.
[57:03.160 --> 57:03.460]  Hello.
[57:03.720 --> 57:04.220]  Yes, go ahead.
[57:04.700 --> 57:05.100]  Hi.
[57:05.720 --> 57:06.660]  I had a couple questions.
[57:07.240 --> 57:11.980]  First of all, I don't know if anyone knew this, but I just found out about this too not too long ago.
[57:12.720 --> 57:19.460]  When you press star six seven or some people automatically have a caller ID blocked, you think you block all calls.
[57:19.560 --> 57:25.480]  But I found out that if you call an 800 number, 877, any toll-free number or a 900 number...
[57:25.480 --> 57:25.700]  Right.
[57:26.040 --> 57:27.640]  ...it bypasses that.
[57:27.740 --> 57:29.440]  No, it's because they don't use caller ID.
[57:29.600 --> 57:30.280]  They use ANI.
[57:31.000 --> 57:33.720]  It's a different technology and you can't block it with star six seven.
[57:33.980 --> 57:35.360]  That's a topic for another show though.
[57:35.460 --> 57:36.640]  Do you have a second point?
[57:37.520 --> 57:38.580]  Yeah, a couple of points.
[57:38.780 --> 57:44.400]  One thing that actually affects my calling into this show, with Bell Atlantic, you can only make...
[57:44.860 --> 57:50.560]  you can only get, I think, 15 or 20 rings before they shut you off.
[57:50.640 --> 57:51.640]  And if you're calling any...
[57:51.640 --> 57:57.020]  There's a lot of state government, a lot of state offices, a lot of bureaucracy, bureaucrats.
[57:57.140 --> 57:57.520]  Uh-huh.
[57:57.520 --> 58:00.800]  It's difficult to get in touch with him in less than 20 rings.
[58:00.800 --> 58:04.500]  I've been on a phone 30 rings down in Trenton to call in some place in Trenton.
[58:04.660 --> 58:07.220]  Well, again, that's defined by your local phone company.
[58:07.400 --> 58:10.920]  I think that we don't have that problem here at BAI with local calls.
[58:10.920 --> 58:13.020]  We do with long distance because we don't control that.
[58:13.140 --> 58:15.320]  But that's been something we've talked about many times too.
[58:15.700 --> 58:17.520]  Let's see if we can squeeze in another call.
[58:17.600 --> 58:18.360]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[58:19.880 --> 58:20.640]  Speak up, please.
[58:22.020 --> 58:23.620]  Okay, you got to move faster than that.
[58:23.720 --> 58:25.080]  Well, listen to the phone, not the radio.
[58:25.200 --> 58:25.960]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[58:27.140 --> 58:28.960]  Okay, that person did hear me and hung up.
[58:28.960 --> 58:30.080]  Let's try over here.
[58:30.160 --> 58:31.100]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[58:31.460 --> 58:34.960]  Hi, I was wondering if you had a chance to describe if you have any scenery in the play.
[58:35.120 --> 58:39.160]  And also just to mention, one of the great surveillance-oriented plays is Little Murders.
[58:39.980 --> 58:42.060]  There's a great scene in that, Jules Swiper.
[58:42.240 --> 58:43.960]  Okay, we have just about enough time to answer that question.
[58:44.060 --> 58:44.280]  Go ahead.
[58:45.060 --> 58:57.020]  I love Little Murders and the scenery basically just creates two realms, a virtual realm and a space which the characters in the middle believe is literal and real.
[58:57.020 --> 59:06.100]  And I try to use the conventions of a stage where you are all imagining things and some of those things you believe are real even though you know that you are playing.
[59:06.220 --> 59:07.900]  It's all virtual on stage.
[59:08.080 --> 59:12.940]  So it's an interesting convention to use to deal with what is real and what is not.
[59:13.200 --> 59:16.500]  Arthur Kopit, author of Y2K, tell us how people can see your play.
[59:16.500 --> 59:28.080]  They can go to Sheridan Square, they can find Christopher Street, they can walk west on Christopher Street toward Hudson and you will see the Lortel Theatre and you will see something called Y2K.
[59:28.380 --> 59:32.300]  And if you go there and you go to the box office, they will accommodate you.
[59:32.760 --> 59:33.340]  Okay, great.
[59:33.360 --> 59:33.980]  I want to see this.
[59:33.980 --> 59:40.440]  Yeah, well it sounds fascinating and if we do see it we will certainly tell people how it is next week or the week after.
[59:40.960 --> 59:42.600]  I want to thank everybody for coming.
[59:42.700 --> 59:45.260]  Thanks Arthur for showing up tonight and talking about the play.
[59:45.660 --> 59:52.480]  And thanks Mackie for coming all the way from California, Isaac from Queens and Bernie Est out there in Philadelphia.
[59:53.060 --> 59:54.000]  Happy New Year to everybody.
[59:54.580 --> 59:57.560]  We'll see you again next week for another edition of Off the Hocus Manual.
[59:57.560 --> 59:58.620]  Have a good night.
[01:00:05.480 --> 01:00:07.480]  The telephone keeps ringing.
[01:00:07.960 --> 01:00:10.120]  So I ripped it off the wall.
[01:00:11.020 --> 01:00:13.080]  I cut myself while shaving.
[01:00:13.640 --> 01:00:15.680]  Now I can't make a call.
[01:00:21.500 --> 01:00:24.120]  Diddly bump but the best expect from worst.
[01:00:24.700 --> 01:00:26.680]  I hope that's understood.
[01:00:27.020 --> 01:00:27.660]  But diddly bump.
[01:01:26.560 --> 01:01:29.960]  This is a theme music for Cat Radio Cafe.
[01:01:30.240 --> 01:01:30.520]  Oh yeah.
[01:01:30.760 --> 01:01:31.780]  An arts magazine.
[01:01:32.220 --> 01:01:34.160]  Live on Wednesday nights at 10.
[01:01:34.160 --> 01:01:36.040]  I'm Janet Coleman, the host.
[01:01:36.160 --> 01:01:37.200]  And I'm David Dozer.
[01:01:37.280 --> 01:01:38.460]  The Displaced Playwright.
[01:01:38.680 --> 01:01:40.820]  This program used to be called by another name.
[01:01:41.020 --> 01:01:42.620]  Now introducing...
[01:01:42.620 --> 01:01:43.920]  Cat Radio Cafe.
[01:01:44.380 --> 01:01:45.740]  Cat Radio Cafe.
[01:01:46.180 --> 01:01:50.580]  Still featuring great interviews with scintillating authors and provocative artistes.
[01:01:50.640 --> 01:01:51.360]  Or vice versa.
[01:01:51.600 --> 01:01:54.200]  The latest in theatre books, art and performance.
[01:01:54.400 --> 01:01:55.640]  What's new on the Rialto?
[01:01:55.960 --> 01:01:56.840]  And Ludlow Street.
[01:01:57.200 --> 01:02:00.700]  And one or two of the 137 Poison Arts Minutes.
[01:02:00.800 --> 01:02:01.280]  Of plays.
[01:02:01.280 --> 01:02:04.980]  Radio minutes that take up to 12 and a half hours to produce.
[01:02:05.160 --> 01:02:07.280]  A marketing idea still ahead of its time.
[01:02:07.440 --> 01:02:08.360]  Listen to this tune.
[01:02:08.580 --> 01:02:10.320]  Oh, I can see you cats now.
[01:02:10.580 --> 01:02:10.600]  Hey.
[01:02:10.760 --> 01:02:11.820]  Stop clawing the furniture.
[01:02:12.060 --> 01:02:12.280]  Get down.
[01:02:12.400 --> 01:02:13.300]  Head for the radio.
[01:02:13.780 --> 01:02:14.220]  Yes.
[01:02:14.220 --> 01:02:14.680]  We'll be right back.
[01:02:14.680 --> 01:02:15.140]  Thank you.