[00:09.850 --> 00:17.510]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York.
[00:17.930 --> 00:19.150]  The time is 8 o'clock.
[00:19.290 --> 00:19.990]  Time for Off the Hook.
[00:43.310 --> 00:45.510]  I'm out for the best, expect the worst.
[00:45.930 --> 00:49.070]  I hope that's understood, but make me move!
[01:53.670 --> 02:00.130]  I thought he was a fight driver, but he never hurt nobody.
[02:00.770 --> 02:07.550]  He just loved to live that way, and he loved to steal your money.
[02:08.110 --> 02:14.690]  Some is rich, some is poor, not the way the world is.
[02:14.690 --> 02:21.390]  But I don't believe in lying back, saying I'll find you lucky.
[02:21.970 --> 02:28.250]  Before we came to charge it up, never loved a shovel.
[02:28.790 --> 02:35.170]  Break your back to unhappy, and don't forget to travel.
[02:35.770 --> 02:42.130]  Daddy was a bank robber, but he never loved to party.
[02:42.130 --> 02:49.430]  He just loved to live that way, and he loved to take down my love.
[02:49.990 --> 02:50.430]  My love.
[03:16.960 --> 03:23.480]  No man spoke up in a bar, said I'd never been in prison.
[03:23.480 --> 03:30.380]  A life that served in one machine is ten times worse than prison.
[03:30.820 --> 03:36.540]  Imagine if all the boys in jail could get out now together.
[03:37.520 --> 03:43.540]  What do you think they want to say to us while we were here together?
[03:44.580 --> 03:50.540]  The day you'll meet your rock and tear, cause that's where we're spinning.
[03:51.620 --> 03:57.780]  There's no fun to walk on your head when it's grey and thin.
[04:04.710 --> 04:06.270]  And a very good evening to one and all.
[04:06.330 --> 04:07.430]  The program is off the hook.
[04:07.550 --> 04:10.810]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you, joined by Isaac over there in the corner.
[04:10.810 --> 04:11.630]  How you doing?
[04:11.970 --> 04:13.650]  And Mackie, who is still here from California.
[04:13.790 --> 04:14.930]  Mackie, you were supposed to be back by now.
[04:15.090 --> 04:15.910]  What's going on with that?
[04:15.970 --> 04:17.790]  Yeah, I decided to stay a little bit longer.
[04:18.010 --> 04:18.110]  Yeah.
[04:18.950 --> 04:19.510]  Missed your plane.
[04:19.790 --> 04:23.610]  Okay, well, we'll be shipping him on out of here after the show.
[04:24.550 --> 04:26.330]  And we won't be on next week.
[04:26.550 --> 04:26.850]  Oh.
[04:26.990 --> 04:27.910]  No, there's a marathon program.
[04:28.030 --> 04:30.130]  We're not going to be on next week or the week after.
[04:30.130 --> 04:35.950]  Which kind of sucks because Kevin Mitnick is being released on the 21st.
[04:36.030 --> 04:44.010]  So we're going to have to wait until I think sometime in February or whatever three weeks from tonight is when we'll be on next.
[04:44.850 --> 04:45.130]  Yeah.
[04:45.350 --> 04:48.370]  So we'll have Mitnick news then.
[04:48.570 --> 04:53.270]  But in the meantime, we are down to, what is it, nine days now?
[04:53.590 --> 04:54.170]  Nine days.
[04:54.490 --> 04:54.750]  Nine days.
[04:54.750 --> 04:59.550]  So I guess this is the last show that we will be doing where Kevin Mitnick is still in prison.
[04:59.550 --> 05:03.170]  So it's kind of historical in that regard.
[05:04.390 --> 05:14.290]  We are going out there to, I guess, greet him as he is released from Lompoc, which is the name of the place which is in the middle of nowhere.
[05:15.130 --> 05:18.110]  I understand a lot of other media people are going out there as well.
[05:18.310 --> 05:22.450]  If you're interested in going out, please contact us.
[05:22.990 --> 05:25.430]  I guess the best thing to do is talk on the Mitnick list.
[05:25.850 --> 05:27.250]  Mitnick at 2600.com.
[05:27.250 --> 05:34.710]  Subscribe to that by mailing to majordomo at 2600.com and typing subscribe Mitnick in the first line of the message.
[05:35.630 --> 05:41.410]  And full information is on the Mitnick website at freekevin.com.
[05:42.170 --> 05:49.770]  So that's where we'll be talking about anything we'll be doing as far as parties or, you know, just general festivities of the day.
[05:50.710 --> 05:54.930]  Should be quite a lot of interesting things coming up.
[05:55.430 --> 05:58.850]  Any plans, Mickey, for the Mitnick celebrations?
[06:00.210 --> 06:00.930]  Nothing specific.
[06:01.130 --> 06:07.170]  Going to go down from my... I live in Northern California, so we'll be a short trip down.
[06:08.150 --> 06:09.210]  Stay with some friends.
[06:09.550 --> 06:10.510]  Make a weekend out of it.
[06:11.030 --> 06:11.190]  Yeah.
[06:12.390 --> 06:12.750]  Yeah.
[06:12.890 --> 06:14.050]  Well, we're over here in New York.
[06:14.090 --> 06:15.450]  We'll have to make a whole week out of it, actually.
[06:15.570 --> 06:19.790]  Because we'll have to head out there fairly early and maybe see him while he's still in prison.
[06:20.750 --> 06:28.870]  But it'll be interesting once he gets out to see just how hard it is for him to survive with all the conditions of his supervised release.
[06:29.710 --> 06:33.850]  We don't know exactly where that's going to wind up, but we'll keep you updated.
[06:35.170 --> 06:36.690]  That's the latest as far as that goes.
[06:36.770 --> 06:39.210]  Also, there's going to be a piece on 60 Minutes.
[06:39.250 --> 06:40.470]  I guess we can tell folks about this.
[06:40.670 --> 06:41.310]  60 Minutes?
[06:41.330 --> 06:41.990]  60 Minutes.
[06:42.070 --> 06:45.570]  The people who do a news magazine on Sunday nights.
[06:45.790 --> 06:47.950]  You may not have heard of it yet, but it's gaining popularity.
[06:48.190 --> 06:48.370]  Really?
[06:48.370 --> 06:48.710]  Yeah.
[06:48.890 --> 06:49.750]  It's an hour-long program?
[06:49.810 --> 06:50.470]  Hour-long program.
[06:50.470 --> 06:53.990]  It's a radical idea of actually doing some sort of news magazine thing.
[06:54.610 --> 06:55.970]  None of the other networks are doing anything like that.
[06:55.990 --> 06:57.070]  The CBS, I believe.
[06:57.270 --> 06:57.670]  CBS.
[06:57.950 --> 06:58.730]  That's the new one, right?
[06:58.930 --> 06:59.150]  Yeah.
[06:59.850 --> 07:01.810]  They should probably put that guy Andy Rooney on there.
[07:01.870 --> 07:02.490]  He's really funny.
[07:03.370 --> 07:04.110]  Don't know the name.
[07:04.310 --> 07:05.130]  Don't know the guy.
[07:05.350 --> 07:08.370]  But they do have some young up-and-coming talent, such as...
[07:08.890 --> 07:09.470]  Ed Bradley.
[07:09.530 --> 07:12.530]  Ed Bradley, Mike Wallace, Morley Safer, I think.
[07:12.890 --> 07:13.270]  Yeah.
[07:14.190 --> 07:14.770]  Young punks.
[07:15.430 --> 07:15.710]  Yeah.
[07:15.710 --> 07:22.430]  But yeah, they're doing a piece on Kevin and his release, and I guess the threat to all of us.
[07:22.770 --> 07:24.870]  Actually, I don't think it's going to be that kind of a piece.
[07:24.950 --> 07:26.590]  I think it's actually going to be a good piece this time.
[07:26.810 --> 07:26.970]  Really?
[07:26.970 --> 07:33.890]  Well, it's, you know, I know after the MTV fiasco, people said that I should never talk to any media people again and never trust anybody.
[07:33.910 --> 07:35.190]  But you know, I'm just not like that.
[07:35.290 --> 07:36.270]  I have to trust people.
[07:36.650 --> 07:38.190]  You have to trust people to get the story right.
[07:38.270 --> 07:46.290]  And I just think in this particular case, you know, Kevin has been through so much that another slander piece at this point in time, I just don't...
[07:46.290 --> 07:46.610]  Well...
[07:46.610 --> 07:47.550]  I don't see the point in it.
[07:47.550 --> 07:50.130]  And he's getting released at the end of the story, so...
[07:50.130 --> 07:50.530]  Yeah.
[07:50.830 --> 07:51.990]  So they'd have to really...
[07:51.990 --> 07:52.730]  It'd be a stretch.
[07:52.890 --> 07:55.910]  And what's the point of doing a bad piece now?
[07:56.110 --> 07:56.450]  Uh-huh.
[07:57.910 --> 07:59.610]  And also, what does he have to lose?
[08:00.050 --> 08:00.610]  That's true.
[08:00.790 --> 08:01.950]  As far as Kevin, you mean, what does he have to lose?
[08:01.950 --> 08:02.330]  Yes, yeah.
[08:02.510 --> 08:04.390]  Well, you know, it'd be nice to tell the story.
[08:04.550 --> 08:15.470]  And of course, we hope to have Kevin here on this show, after he gets out as well, telling his story, answering questions, communicating, which is something that when you're locked away for five years becomes awfully difficult to do.
[08:15.670 --> 08:18.470]  So long as it's not communicating about computers in any way whatsoever.
[08:18.650 --> 08:18.870]  That's right.
[08:18.950 --> 08:19.950]  We can't talk about computers.
[08:20.530 --> 08:20.730]  Naturally.
[08:20.730 --> 08:21.430]  Can't talk about that at all.
[08:21.630 --> 08:24.170]  Are we going to have to change the name of the show from Off the Hook?
[08:24.310 --> 08:25.910]  Because telephones, you know, that's not...
[08:25.910 --> 08:26.310]  That's only one step away.
[08:26.310 --> 08:28.870]  Well, he's going to be using a phone to call us, so I don't think so.
[08:29.050 --> 08:30.650]  I think we can pretty much keep that title.
[08:30.710 --> 08:31.570]  Better be a rotary phone.
[08:31.690 --> 08:32.690]  Yeah, and a landline.
[08:32.730 --> 08:39.830]  It's interesting though, the new phone system they have in the prisons, he can't call Collect.
[08:40.090 --> 08:41.810]  And Bernie, you're sitting there over in Philadelphia.
[08:41.810 --> 08:42.530]  How are you doing?
[08:42.550 --> 08:43.030]  Yes, I am.
[08:43.570 --> 08:44.670]  Don't mean to neglect you there.
[08:44.910 --> 08:45.890]  It's just you're on the phone.
[08:45.890 --> 08:48.770]  I can't see you, so it's very easy to skip over you.
[08:48.870 --> 08:49.590]  We still love you.
[08:49.630 --> 08:52.130]  They have a new phone system.
[08:52.210 --> 08:55.850]  Maybe you have some insight on this where he doesn't call Collect.
[08:56.090 --> 09:03.250]  He makes a direct call, but the call is announced first, saying this call is coming from a prison, from a very dangerous person inside.
[09:03.730 --> 09:08.530]  And you have to press certain buttons in order to accept the call, even though it's not Collect.
[09:08.530 --> 09:11.750]  You have to press, I think, five to accept the call.
[09:12.310 --> 09:21.810]  And it's pretty funny because when Kevin first called me last week on this new system, apparently what it does is it records your name, but it doesn't record your name every phone call.
[09:21.890 --> 09:22.950]  It records your name once.
[09:22.950 --> 09:22.990]  Yes.
[09:23.390 --> 09:26.570]  So his name was Press 5 Grandma.
[09:28.770 --> 09:32.130]  Because he wanted to make sure that she pressed the right button.
[09:32.350 --> 09:34.890]  So I was getting this call from Press 5 Grandma.
[09:35.190 --> 09:36.590]  And I asked him, what's up with that?
[09:36.690 --> 09:37.310]  He said, yeah, I know.
[09:37.370 --> 09:38.070]  I can't change it.
[09:38.410 --> 09:39.470]  It stuck that way.
[09:39.570 --> 09:41.350]  Apparently you get one chance at it.
[09:42.170 --> 09:43.230]  But that's the idea.
[09:43.370 --> 09:48.070]  You press five and your call is accepted.
[09:48.070 --> 09:49.470]  You get to talk for 15 minutes.
[09:49.590 --> 09:56.330]  But in the middle of the call, and some of the folks who listen to calls from Mami Abu-Jamal might have heard this.
[09:56.510 --> 10:01.250]  In the middle of the conversation, all of a sudden you hear a voice saying, this call is coming from a prison.
[10:01.250 --> 10:03.670]  And I always thought, why are they editing that in there?
[10:03.730 --> 10:04.930]  It doesn't sound natural.
[10:05.230 --> 10:07.050]  Well, it's because it really happens that way.
[10:07.150 --> 10:12.850]  With these kind of systems, in the middle of your phone call, a recorded voice comes on and reminds you, this call is coming from a prison.
[10:12.930 --> 10:13.970]  As if you forgot or something.
[10:14.950 --> 10:24.850]  So if by some horrible chance you were to press 7-7 on this system, it would forever block your number from being called by that person again.
[10:25.170 --> 10:31.210]  So that's something that you have to be really careful of if you have young children around the house playing with phones.
[10:31.570 --> 10:33.290]  Bernie, you ever hear of a phone system like that?
[10:33.770 --> 10:33.930]  Yeah.
[10:34.870 --> 10:43.610]  While I was in federal prison, I was in the pre-trial detention area for the better part of my 14-month stay.
[10:44.710 --> 10:48.210]  And when you're in the pre-trial detention area, you can make collect calls.
[10:48.350 --> 11:04.830]  But once you have been, what they say, designated to a facility after your sentence, and you're sent to, about a month or so after your sentence, you're sent to a permanent facility where you're going to serve out the rest of your years or whatever, the phone systems there are different.
[11:04.830 --> 11:09.410]  And you have to give them a list of phone numbers that you want to call.
[11:09.670 --> 11:20.650]  And then the prison officials verify the names and identities of all the people associated with those phone numbers and make sure that none of them are criminals or anything like that.
[11:20.650 --> 11:23.590]  And you can only change this list like once in a blue moon.
[11:23.790 --> 11:24.630]  It's very restrictive.
[11:25.450 --> 11:28.170]  I think the system is called ITS-2 or something?
[11:28.870 --> 11:31.050]  I don't know what it's called, to be honest with you.
[11:31.530 --> 11:31.550]  Yeah.
[11:31.550 --> 11:32.210]  There's a website.
[11:32.410 --> 11:35.550]  I'll get the URL for the website, but there's all this information on...
[11:35.550 --> 11:42.550]  For instance, it's now possible for federal authorities to monitor any phone conversation anywhere in the country.
[11:43.150 --> 11:45.630]  That's one of the new things this system allows you to do.
[11:45.690 --> 11:47.130]  You can be sitting in Washington, D.C.
[11:47.390 --> 11:53.330]  You want to hear what Kevin Mitnick in California is saying, you can actually press a button and hear what he is saying at this particular time.
[11:53.470 --> 11:54.330]  That is scary to me.
[11:54.470 --> 11:58.050]  And they are also all recorded as well onto some sort of...
[11:58.050 --> 12:00.690]  Probably a digital audio tape, some sort of digital format.
[12:01.670 --> 12:08.830]  So they can go back and play back, you know, what Kevin said on this date to his grandmom or whoever.
[12:08.830 --> 12:09.590]  Uh huh.
[12:09.650 --> 12:09.970]  Uh huh.
[12:10.450 --> 12:11.650]  So it's a...
[12:11.650 --> 12:12.430]  You know...
[12:12.930 --> 12:19.330]  By all the prison phones in the federal system, there's a sign from the Bureau of Prisons that says, uh...
[12:19.970 --> 12:21.470]  All calls are monitored.
[12:21.710 --> 12:28.290]  Use of this telephone system constitutes your acceptance of this monitoring.
[12:28.510 --> 12:29.550]  As if you have any choice.
[12:29.790 --> 12:31.130]  Like you have a choice, you know?
[12:31.350 --> 12:33.570]  Even when you're talking to your attorney, you just don't...
[12:33.570 --> 12:35.010]  You don't have a choice.
[12:35.310 --> 12:35.470]  Uh huh.
[12:35.470 --> 12:36.650]  So, uh...
[12:36.650 --> 12:38.210]  So much for the attorney-client privilege.
[12:38.550 --> 12:39.370]  That's unbelievable.
[12:39.570 --> 12:46.030]  And, you know, the thing that a lot of people don't realize is that, yes, there are two million people in prison right now in various places around the country.
[12:46.290 --> 12:48.630]  And this system is only for them.
[12:48.910 --> 12:52.450]  And, uh, free-thinking people like us are free from that.
[12:52.570 --> 12:53.290]  And that's not true at all.
[12:53.450 --> 12:58.130]  Because this technology is being tested on the people that nobody is going to stand up for.
[12:58.610 --> 13:02.550]  Uh, look for it to be introduced in the workplace in times ahead.
[13:02.550 --> 13:02.870]  You know?
[13:03.010 --> 13:04.090]  Just for your protection.
[13:04.350 --> 13:04.970]  For the same reasons.
[13:05.150 --> 13:09.330]  So that, uh, you know, the customer will have a record of a transaction or something like that.
[13:09.610 --> 13:14.190]  And then eventually it'll just be surreptitiously introduced in all forms of, uh, of our culture.
[13:14.470 --> 13:16.250]  And I'm sure it will be completely secure.
[13:16.590 --> 13:19.650]  In that no one could possibly access it.
[13:19.810 --> 13:22.190]  Well, if it's not secure, though, the hackers will be blamed.
[13:22.830 --> 13:23.190]  Absolutely.
[13:23.390 --> 13:23.830]  And I want to...
[13:23.830 --> 13:25.010]  That brings me to the next story.
[13:25.150 --> 13:25.870]  The, uh, U.S.
[13:26.010 --> 13:27.430]  crackdown on cyber-terrorism.
[13:27.590 --> 13:28.150]  The latest one.
[13:28.350 --> 13:29.170]  Have you heard about this one?
[13:29.170 --> 13:29.790]  It sounds weird.
[13:29.790 --> 13:30.370]  The United States...
[13:30.370 --> 13:31.210]  United States President.
[13:31.510 --> 13:32.970]  I'm reading this from the, from the BBC.
[13:33.290 --> 13:34.990]  So, uh, that's why they say United States President.
[13:35.450 --> 13:41.650]  Bill Clinton has announced plans to spend billions of dollars to protect America's computer systems from hackers and viruses.
[13:42.270 --> 13:44.990]  Did you know that hackers were worth billions of dollars at, uh...
[13:44.990 --> 13:45.350]  Oh, sure.
[13:45.430 --> 13:49.130]  We're up there with, uh, biological terrorists and, uh, chemical concerns.
[13:49.290 --> 13:51.090]  Don't you remember the National Science Foundation speech?
[13:51.350 --> 13:51.850]  Yeah, I do.
[13:52.970 --> 13:53.410]  Um...
[13:53.410 --> 13:54.370]  You know, it's kind of...
[13:54.370 --> 14:09.790]  Well, this, this whole program includes a national plan to protect American interest in cyberspace, a three-year plan offering scholarships to train scientists in computer security, and the establishment of a new academic institute to look at ways of further tightening security in cyberspace.
[14:10.290 --> 14:12.350]  Uh, so, billions of dollars.
[14:12.490 --> 14:14.190]  What's the, what's the exact, uh...
[14:14.190 --> 14:15.190]  Two, two billion dollars.
[14:15.350 --> 14:15.970]  Two billion dollars?
[14:16.250 --> 14:22.250]  The, uh, but the, but the, the most recent initiative that he spoke about is a ninety-one million dollar proposal.
[14:22.870 --> 14:23.350]  Um...
[14:23.350 --> 14:33.110]  Now, what's interesting about this is that, uh, Clinton said that, uh, he would work hard to ensure that these security initiatives do not tread on the privacy rights of citizens.
[14:33.290 --> 14:38.250]  Yeah, the exact quote is, it is essential that we do not undermine liberty in the name of liberty.
[14:38.530 --> 14:38.790]  Uh-huh.
[14:38.850 --> 14:42.590]  Now, I'm trying to figure out what, what that kind of doublespeak means.
[14:43.310 --> 14:50.410]  Um, does that mean that there's, that there's something about these security initiatives that might, uh, tread on privacy rights of citizens?
[14:50.550 --> 14:51.550]  And if so, how?
[14:51.770 --> 14:59.610]  Is this, is this going to, uh, make it illegal to, uh, to do any kind of anonymous, uh, use of the internet?
[14:59.770 --> 15:03.630]  Say, use a, an anonymizer type of thing?
[15:03.790 --> 15:05.090]  I mean, what does this mean?
[15:05.550 --> 15:06.330]  Good question.
[15:06.690 --> 15:08.890]  That's always what we seem to be asking is, what does this mean?
[15:09.030 --> 15:11.130]  What, what, what's really written behind the headlines?
[15:11.850 --> 15:13.990]  And, uh, I wish I could give you an answer because...
[15:13.990 --> 15:15.790]  Whenever they give a warning like this, like...
[15:15.790 --> 15:17.610]  But, but we won't tread on your privacy rights.
[15:17.850 --> 15:19.290]  That's when you've got to start worrying.
[15:19.410 --> 15:19.610]  Mm-hmm.
[15:19.650 --> 15:22.230]  When they, when they, when they start bringing it up, like, oh, but we won't do this.
[15:22.510 --> 15:24.610]  You know, you know that it's going to happen.
[15:24.930 --> 15:25.210]  Mm-hmm.
[15:26.010 --> 15:26.370]  Absolutely.
[15:26.690 --> 15:27.690]  So, uh, I'm looking for that.
[15:27.830 --> 15:37.870]  And then, uh, a key advisor, uh, the president, uh, uh, on Thursday included cyber terrorism near the top of a list of threats facing America in the new century.
[15:37.990 --> 15:42.730]  Now, the interesting, the interesting thing about this, whenever we talk about this, people always ask, where's the cyber terrorism?
[15:42.930 --> 15:44.830]  And, you know, we don't, we don't really see instances of this.
[15:44.830 --> 15:55.850]  Well, in the last couple of days, we did see a story being reported about a hacker who, uh, who managed to capture hundreds of thousands of credit card numbers from some CD company.
[15:55.990 --> 15:56.710]  Did you hear about this, Bernie?
[15:57.190 --> 15:58.250]  I did hear about it.
[15:58.610 --> 15:59.410]  Widely broadcast.
[15:59.650 --> 16:00.330]  Widely broadcast.
[16:00.330 --> 16:13.070]  Every, every, every news, news agency and network had it as a, a computer hacker who, uh, somehow captured credit card numbers off some insecure site and was posting them and, and holding them hostage saying, if you don't give me several hundred thousand dollars,
[16:13.210 --> 16:13.870]  I'll post them all.
[16:14.410 --> 16:19.950]  Uh, first of all, if such a case even exists in the first place, it certainly has got nothing to do with hacking.
[16:19.950 --> 16:39.810]  This is extortion plain and simple because somebody is able to type letters on a keyboard that does not make them into a hacker, you know, but for the, for the purposes of programs like this, it serves their interest to paint hackers as these malicious people that do what they do on TV and go around collecting data on private individuals and holding it for ransom.
[16:39.810 --> 16:40.910]  You know, it's...
[16:40.910 --> 16:46.670]  So they didn't, they didn't introduce this story like saying, an extortionist stole, you know, these credit card numbers or whatever.
[16:46.810 --> 16:50.970]  No, no, because extortionists, because the extortionist community would rise up and protest against them.
[16:51.030 --> 16:51.270]  No, of course.
[16:51.450 --> 16:52.910]  The word hacker is much more sexy.
[16:53.150 --> 17:06.890]  Yeah, hack, just saying they're hackers, all of a sudden that, uh, that makes it something that the average person can, can really see the threat in and having watched the MTV thing and, you know, all the other, uh, things out there that, that, that tell you how much of a threat hackers are and how they commit common crimes.
[17:07.330 --> 17:09.210]  You know, all of a sudden it makes sense.
[17:09.310 --> 17:13.810]  And when you see something like Clinton's proposal, yeah, we have to do something because this is a real threat.
[17:14.970 --> 17:18.370]  Clinton's going to offer some college scholarships under this program as well.
[17:18.470 --> 17:20.870]  I wonder if any of our listeners might be interested in checking that out.
[17:20.950 --> 17:24.370]  Yeah, supposedly it's something like the ROTC, except having to do with computers.
[17:24.510 --> 17:36.810]  Yeah, one of the real problems with it, though, is that if you were to, say, come out of this program, you would probably be sitting at level G6, 7, 8, or 9, which would pay you about $30,000 to $45,000 a year.
[17:36.890 --> 17:49.850]  Whereas if somebody were to receive the very same training on their own initiative and were to go work in Silicon Alley or Silicon Valley or one of these other places, they would be receiving somewhere on the order of $90,000 to $150,000 a year.
[17:50.250 --> 17:51.650]  You wouldn't have to get a crew cut either.
[17:51.850 --> 17:55.810]  Yeah, well, I could see people trying to sort of stay away from this.
[17:56.010 --> 18:08.690]  But, well, you know, it'd be a GI Bill kind of thing, I'd suppose, where you get the free education and you spend two or three years, like, chasing down hackers on the, you know, information planes with your badge and digital gun.
[18:09.250 --> 18:20.850]  Well, yes, and that's why they'll try to use that image to their advantage in recruiting people just like the other branches of the military and intelligence agencies do.
[18:21.130 --> 18:27.350]  Oh, well, yeah, but you'll be serving your country and you'll, yeah, and you'll be working with people with guns.
[18:27.350 --> 18:28.230]  It'll be cool.
[18:28.630 --> 18:30.430]  Yeah, the guns thing, really.
[18:30.530 --> 18:31.630]  Be all you can be.
[18:31.790 --> 18:32.110]  Oh, yeah.
[18:33.290 --> 18:36.890]  Well, okay, it's only going to be a matter of time before we see where this particular thing leads.
[18:36.970 --> 18:41.090]  But always, when you see stories like this, folks, treat it with a grain of salt.
[18:41.370 --> 18:47.790]  Ask where the real story is because more times than not, there's some magic going on, you know, smoke and mirrors.
[18:48.550 --> 18:50.690]  So we just have to look for it in this particular case, too.
[18:58.230 --> 19:00.750]  They did with a cyber gang known as global hell.
[19:01.110 --> 19:01.970]  Oh, that's a new one.
[19:02.090 --> 19:02.210]  Yeah.
[19:02.730 --> 19:05.730]  Compromised at least 27 internet service providers late last year.
[19:06.650 --> 19:07.410]  Late last year.
[19:07.550 --> 19:08.750]  Why are we just getting this now?
[19:08.870 --> 19:11.470]  Stealing passwords and, in some cases, destroying data.
[19:11.830 --> 19:12.990]  Do you want to answer to your question?
[19:12.990 --> 19:15.250]  According to details of a police investigation released Monday.
[19:15.250 --> 19:15.810]  Yes, go ahead.
[19:15.890 --> 19:16.430]  That's my question.
[19:16.430 --> 19:18.490]  Your question as in why we're getting this now?
[19:18.590 --> 19:19.350]  Yeah, why are we getting this now?
[19:19.350 --> 19:20.490]  Because Clinton made his announcement.
[19:20.630 --> 19:26.230]  Now we have to back up all of these wonderful proposals with reasons that we should be going about this course of action.
[19:26.230 --> 19:30.150]  So we'll drag things out from, like, years past and present them as new news.
[19:30.550 --> 19:31.030]  Shocking.
[19:31.050 --> 19:31.670]  It really is.
[19:32.170 --> 19:32.650]  Surprising.
[19:32.890 --> 19:34.230]  I'm just flabbergasted.
[19:34.770 --> 19:43.330]  Well, Pacific Bell went beyond issuing a simple warning, saying that subscribers would be required to change their passwords or face being shut out of their accounts.
[19:43.830 --> 19:53.250]  For your protection, if you have not changed your password by January 14, 2000, Pacific Bell Internet will require that you call in to change it in order to access your account.
[19:53.490 --> 19:54.430]  That doesn't sound very smart.
[19:54.430 --> 19:55.050]  Wait a second.
[19:55.050 --> 19:56.390]  Let me guess.
[19:56.470 --> 19:58.510]  They said that there was no security violation, though, right?
[19:58.670 --> 19:59.470]  I just read one.
[19:59.630 --> 20:01.110]  I mean, that's an incredible security violation.
[20:01.210 --> 20:03.870]  Call in to change your password and force people to do that.
[20:04.050 --> 20:09.970]  So hundreds of thousands of people are going to be calling Pacific Bell after January 14 to change their password over the phone.
[20:10.170 --> 20:10.710]  Gee whiz.
[20:10.730 --> 20:12.310]  I wonder if there might be a security hole there.
[20:12.490 --> 20:14.310]  Well, why are they asking to change their passwords?
[20:14.770 --> 20:16.250]  Well, because they apparently...
[20:16.250 --> 20:17.450]  They had someone hack into there.
[20:17.510 --> 20:18.710]  Entire system was compromised.
[20:18.710 --> 20:23.270]  Okay, but did they say that there is no security compromise or something like that?
[20:23.270 --> 20:24.850]  There are people who claim this.
[20:25.930 --> 20:36.150]  Actually, the facts in the case came three days after Pacific Bell Internet services notified an unknown number of customers that their passwords have been compromised and that they have until January 14 to change them.
[20:36.290 --> 20:41.090]  So I don't know if these particular people had their passwords compromised or if everybody in the system did.
[20:41.090 --> 20:52.470]  It's already impossible to get through to Pac-Bell for any Internet-related problems, much less get someone who will know anything about what they're supposed to be doing.
[20:52.570 --> 20:52.870]  Here we go.
[20:52.910 --> 20:53.490]  I have facts here.
[20:53.650 --> 20:59.030]  For more than 200,000 passwords had been stolen from the California Internet service provider.
[20:59.190 --> 20:59.510]  Stolen.
[20:59.590 --> 21:01.150]  That means these people have no passwords anymore.
[21:01.370 --> 21:02.350]  They stole the passwords.
[21:02.910 --> 21:08.010]  Though the police found that only 63,000 had been decrypted at the time of this person's arrest.
[21:09.110 --> 21:09.830]  63,000?
[21:09.890 --> 21:10.790]  That's a pretty good...
[21:10.790 --> 21:15.870]  If it's what I think they're saying, they took encrypted passwords and were able to decrypt almost half of them?
[21:16.710 --> 21:17.670]  That's not bad.
[21:18.370 --> 21:21.370]  It's very bad as far as the person encrypting the passwords.
[21:21.370 --> 21:22.010]  I'll say that.
[21:22.150 --> 21:22.750]  But, wow.
[21:23.690 --> 21:24.670]  Do you really think that's true?
[21:24.690 --> 21:26.370]  I have a feeling it's a dictionary attack.
[21:26.570 --> 21:27.450]  I mean, think about it.
[21:27.450 --> 21:29.250]  You've got the general public choosing passwords.
[21:29.450 --> 21:33.570]  You've got baseball, love, sex, secret, God.
[21:33.810 --> 21:33.930]  Hmm.
[21:34.030 --> 21:36.790]  It seems like I'm quoting, you know, lines from movies past.
[21:37.930 --> 21:44.290]  They're basically exceptionally silly words that mean nothing but can very easily be gotten through a simple dictionary attack.
[21:44.470 --> 21:52.970]  Police have charged just one person, a 16-year-old West Hills, California resident, with several felonies, including unlawful access and grand theft.
[21:53.490 --> 21:55.450]  The cyber thief allegedly...
[21:55.450 --> 21:55.590]  Grand theft what?
[21:56.670 --> 21:58.370]  Grand theft cyber, I don't know.
[21:59.350 --> 22:07.650]  The cyber thief had connections with a notorious online group known as Global Hell, which I guess could be as simple as messaging them on IRC or something, who knows.
[22:08.150 --> 22:16.210]  Several members of which were arrested last fall by federal law enforcement officials, which means any link to people like that, and all of a sudden you're guilty, too.
[22:16.430 --> 22:16.710]  Hold on.
[22:16.850 --> 22:17.030]  Be careful.
[22:18.850 --> 22:20.010]  Yes, Mackie, you were saying something.
[22:20.170 --> 22:24.950]  Well, I was just going to say, I'll let you know what I get from Pac Bell when I get home.
[22:24.950 --> 22:26.550]  That's who my DSL is through.
[22:26.830 --> 22:27.010]  Oh, really?
[22:27.170 --> 22:28.770]  So I am a Pac Bell DSL...
[22:28.770 --> 22:29.770]  Your password made with a compromise.
[22:30.230 --> 22:31.110]  Well, my roommates.
[22:31.130 --> 22:33.290]  I didn't sign up with their email accounts.
[22:33.530 --> 22:33.830]  Wow.
[22:34.190 --> 22:34.890]  Is your password a good one?
[22:34.890 --> 22:36.070]  You're using someone else's account?
[22:36.730 --> 22:37.810]  Well, uh...
[22:37.810 --> 22:38.490]  Is that legal, Bernie?
[22:38.490 --> 22:39.830]  I think this is grounds for investigation.
[22:39.830 --> 22:40.610]  Yeah, I think...
[22:40.610 --> 22:51.170]  You get a set number of email addresses from Pac Bell, but you have to go to some website to activate them, and I chose not to.
[22:51.410 --> 22:55.030]  We also got an interesting brochure in the mail, which I wanted to touch upon.
[22:55.170 --> 22:56.690]  This has to do with the prison calling.
[22:57.230 --> 23:03.930]  It comes from a company known as Family Discount Calling, and they advertise half-price inmate calling services.
[23:04.090 --> 23:06.210]  Bernie, I'd be particularly interested in your take on this.
[23:06.370 --> 23:07.310]  Have you heard of them, first of all?
[23:07.430 --> 23:07.990]  No, I haven't.
[23:07.990 --> 23:08.450]  It's interesting.
[23:08.570 --> 23:08.870]  What is it?
[23:09.050 --> 23:15.710]  Well, Family Discount Calling, known as FDC, will establish and maintain a new phone number for your friend or loved one to call you on.
[23:15.870 --> 23:18.970]  You will receive your phone calls on your home phone as you do now.
[23:19.130 --> 23:23.630]  Your present home phone number will not change nor be affected by participating in the FDC program.
[23:24.030 --> 23:29.630]  Should the inmate be released or transferred or any other changes occur, notify FDC immediately for instructions.
[23:29.630 --> 23:33.210]  You can elect to cancel the program at any time by simply calling FDC toll-free.
[23:34.410 --> 23:39.990]  And basically, family, friends, or lawyers with a home, a business phone number can apply.
[23:40.170 --> 23:41.170]  Inmates cannot sign up.
[23:41.590 --> 23:44.530]  And I guess they say you save over half price.
[23:44.630 --> 23:45.670]  An inmate collect calls.
[23:47.290 --> 23:48.310]  And I don't know.
[23:48.390 --> 23:49.490]  I'm not exactly sure how it works.
[23:49.530 --> 23:52.190]  They say your approximate cost will be 10 to 15 cents per minute.
[23:52.190 --> 23:59.210]  It's a one-time installation charge, flat rate, monthly fee for local dial tone charge for a new single line.
[23:59.550 --> 24:04.450]  And with all that, you still save money over the, I guess, the direct rate.
[24:04.830 --> 24:13.350]  I think what they're doing, Emanuel, is they're probably establishing a point of presence in the local calling area of each prison institution.
[24:13.350 --> 24:22.750]  So the person making the, the prisoner who's making a collect call will be making a collect local call as opposed to a collect long-distance call.
[24:23.030 --> 24:23.470]  Okay.
[24:23.590 --> 24:40.110]  And they're making profit off of that by then routing the, you know, forwarding the call on through their own carrier, which is a discount carrier, and then, you know, taking a slice of the profit and driving it back to the person whose calls are forwarded to.
[24:40.110 --> 24:44.510]  Well, they have, they have one addendum to this, and I think it has to do with remote call forwarding.
[24:44.570 --> 24:50.250]  They say remote call forwarding is one of the very few legal alternatives to reduce the extremely high cost of inmate calling.
[24:50.890 --> 25:03.850]  Presently, under the dominant carrier guidelines, the AT&T tariff, inmate phone providers are, they're known as IPPs, are allowed to charge up to $5.50 in surcharges and 55 cents a minute for interstate long-distance calls.
[25:03.990 --> 25:08.990]  So it would appear they're using remote call forwarding to, to counter this in a very positive way, I must say.
[25:08.990 --> 25:21.970]  They have a website, www.vt2.com slash FDC, and there's also a telephone number, 1-888-446-6283.
[25:22.410 --> 25:24.890]  So hopefully that can help some people out there.
[25:25.110 --> 25:26.350]  Too late for Kevin, unfortunately.
[25:26.350 --> 25:30.750]  A mother of a prisoner, a mother of a prisoner emailed me last year, I believe, about something like this.
[25:30.810 --> 25:32.170]  I don't know if it's the same company or not.
[25:32.530 --> 25:45.070]  And the prison authorities shut the, well, didn't they shut, they didn't shut the company down, but they made it very clear to the company that they weren't going to be doing this because it made it more difficult for them to track who the, who the prisoner was at.
[25:45.070 --> 25:56.790]  Prisoners were calling, and the prison didn't like it at all, and they made it, they blocked all the numbers from being called, all the local numbers for this, for accessing this service.
[25:56.930 --> 25:58.250]  They blocked it from the prison system.
[25:58.370 --> 25:59.750]  Now, I don't know if it's the same company or not.
[26:00.150 --> 26:04.850]  A mother of one prisoner emailed me last year to explain that this is what was going on.
[26:04.990 --> 26:14.450]  And this was, here was a company that seemed to be offering the good service to cut these outrageously overpriced calls to a, to a prisoner, uh, market.
[26:14.930 --> 26:27.170]  Um, and, and they were being put out of business by this, uh, by this prison who just blocked all the numbers and said, okay, you can't do this because it makes it harder for us to tell where the calls are actually going to because they're, you know, doing this call forwarding thing.
[26:27.890 --> 26:33.590]  Well, I mean, they're still able to record the phone calls, monitor people, do whatever, but, uh, you know, the fact that they...
[26:33.590 --> 26:37.630]  The prisoner, the prison officials want to know where that call is going.
[26:37.810 --> 26:40.050]  That's part of their whole surveillance mania.
[26:40.210 --> 26:48.570]  They want to not only know the content of the conversation, but the identity of the party at the other end of the line, at least, at least whose phone number that is.
[26:48.690 --> 27:01.170]  And using the, and if this call forwarding scheme is used by an outside company, that makes it harder for the prison officials to know where the ultimate call's destination is, unless they have an agreement with that company, that company giving that data.
[27:01.310 --> 27:03.850]  But, but these prison officials, they don't trust anybody.
[27:04.010 --> 27:08.750]  And, and it seems like that, that's where the bone of contention was.
[27:08.890 --> 27:14.610]  So maybe this company who's for sure you're looking at now got, got around that or made a deal or something.
[27:14.810 --> 27:15.590]  It's possible.
[27:15.890 --> 27:16.250]  It's interesting.
[27:16.490 --> 27:21.310]  But you also have to remember that the prisons are getting quite a kickback from all the collect calls.
[27:21.610 --> 27:21.910]  Oh, a huge kickback.
[27:21.930 --> 27:22.110]  Yeah.
[27:22.190 --> 27:31.690]  So... I recall when I was in, uh, one of the, one of the five prisons I was sent around to during my 14 month, uh, vacation, uh, it was Bucks County prison in Doylestown, Pennsylvania.
[27:31.690 --> 27:43.010]  And I, I managed to get, uh, uh, elected to the, uh, uh, by the, the prisoners in my cell block to the, uh, I forget what they called it.
[27:43.110 --> 27:54.190]  It was, it was like our, our prisoner government kind of thing where we had, uh, uh, uh, an appointed person who would go to the, uh, the prison administrators with concerns or grievances, that sort of thing.
[27:54.850 --> 28:00.490]  Um, I was on that for about a month before I got moved over to another facility or something.
[28:00.490 --> 28:13.490]  In any case, uh, I got ahold of the information in one, I believe it was during one, there was, it was a quarterly kickback that Bell Atlantic was giving to the, uh, uh, to the Bucks County prison.
[28:14.050 --> 28:20.570]  And I think for, for one quarter, I may be mistaken, it was either for the year or for a three month period.
[28:20.750 --> 28:26.710]  It was $91,000 that Bell was kicking back the prison.
[28:26.710 --> 28:27.650]  It might've been for the whole year.
[28:27.770 --> 28:28.610]  I think it was for the whole year.
[28:29.070 --> 28:33.570]  $91,000 that Bell was, this is for a local, you know, a county prison.
[28:33.710 --> 28:34.830]  It wasn't like a huge facility.
[28:35.370 --> 28:43.890]  $91,000 that Bell Atlantic was, that was giving as a kickback to the prison officials, which was not going to the, to the prisoners or the prisoners' families who were getting gouged.
[28:43.970 --> 28:47.170]  If you can imagine, that's what Bell Atlantic was giving as a kickback.
[28:47.350 --> 28:49.350]  You can imagine how much they were actually making.
[28:49.490 --> 28:54.790]  You can bet it was a lot more than that that they were gouging these, uh, poor prisoners' families for.
[28:54.970 --> 28:55.470]  That's unbelievable.
[28:55.790 --> 29:03.490]  So we're talking about, literally, it's a multi-billion dollar business, this ripping off of, uh, prisoners' families.
[29:03.670 --> 29:06.730]  And these, these, these people generally can't really afford to do this.
[29:06.870 --> 29:12.030]  A lot of people would argue that, well, these prisoners deserve to be penalized with, with high-priced phone calls.
[29:12.250 --> 29:15.510]  The prisoners aren't the ones that, they couldn't pay for these if they wanted to.
[29:15.590 --> 29:18.510]  It's the person who has to accept the collect call that's getting gouged.
[29:18.670 --> 29:29.130]  Usually these are the loved ones or, uh, of, of people who are the support network for people trying to, trying to go to, it's just, it's a sick, sick, rip-off.
[29:29.250 --> 29:34.490]  Well, I guess that includes us, because we accepted your calls, we accepted, uh, Kevin's calls, and yeah, we've been gouged all right.
[29:34.610 --> 29:36.450]  I look at those bills sometimes and they're unbelievable.
[29:36.850 --> 29:40.030]  Just the, the, the numbers for relatively short periods of time.
[29:41.330 --> 29:50.150]  So, uh, yeah, we're looking at a mixture of, uh, of the justice system and the corporate system all coming together to, uh, to steal from people.
[29:50.570 --> 29:55.970]  Speaking of stealing, I've got some letters from AT&T and, uh, some funny things going on there.
[29:56.190 --> 29:57.230]  Nice little segue there.
[29:57.370 --> 29:58.610]  Well, it's a, it's a necessary segue.
[29:58.910 --> 30:02.850]  Uh, first of all, AT&T has, you know, charges people for not using their, their system.
[30:02.990 --> 30:15.210]  And by the way, uh, a bunch of people gave me advice on the problem I had a few weeks ago where I have a phone line that I don't use for long distance and all of a sudden they separated the AT&T portion of the bill from the about Atlantic portion of the bill.
[30:15.350 --> 30:20.810]  So I'm now getting an AT&T bill every month for a phone that I don't use for long distance.
[30:20.810 --> 30:25.050]  So I'm getting every month more and more of a bill for absolutely nothing.
[30:25.970 --> 30:29.210]  It's, it's something that I, I devoutly refuse to pay.
[30:29.510 --> 30:36.110]  You know, I don't believe in paying for nothing, even though I was paying it before on my local bill, I could overlook it then because it was like a tax sort of thing.
[30:36.230 --> 30:45.130]  But you know, if, if, if the state sent you a bill for, for state tax, I don't think you'd pay it because, you know, you're supposed to pay it on your purchases, not separately.
[30:45.670 --> 30:51.650]  Uh, so a few people said, you know, that you can just sign up for no long distance carrier and do this.
[30:51.950 --> 30:53.410]  And I know you can do that.
[30:53.570 --> 30:58.370]  You can do that and probably pay a little bit less, not very much less though, but I want to see what happens.
[30:58.630 --> 31:06.270]  And I'm, I'm getting increasingly testy letters from AT&T saying, uh, perhaps, uh, perhaps you overlook the bills that we've been sending you.
[31:06.850 --> 31:08.170]  Uh, sometimes people do that.
[31:08.330 --> 31:11.530]  Sometimes good, uh, Christian people forget to pay and that's okay.
[31:11.690 --> 31:12.090]  It's all right.
[31:12.190 --> 31:12.790]  Just pay now.
[31:13.430 --> 31:14.750]  And I'm not doing what the manual.
[31:14.910 --> 31:16.090]  What are they actually billing you for?
[31:16.330 --> 31:20.110]  Uh, they're billing me the, uh, the $3 monthly usage fee.
[31:20.630 --> 31:20.970]  All right.
[31:21.150 --> 31:22.130]  For non-usage of what?
[31:22.530 --> 31:23.630]  Uh, of AT&T.
[31:23.850 --> 31:29.570]  But they, they say, um, they say that there is a, uh, uh, uh, kind of a maintenance.
[31:30.170 --> 31:30.470]  Okay.
[31:30.710 --> 31:34.530]  Basic, in their own words, basic service includes customer service and account maintenance.
[31:34.730 --> 31:39.250]  And it typically costs more than $3 a month, even if no calls are made.
[31:39.390 --> 31:41.190]  So they're charging you for the paperwork.
[31:41.370 --> 31:52.610]  They're saying, well, they charge me for this letter too, but they're, they're saying that, uh, you know, it could go up even more if you're not careful, you know, even more than... This is for the privilege of, of actually having an account with AT&T.
[31:52.730 --> 31:53.810]  You have to pay a month, a fee.
[31:53.950 --> 31:54.570]  Except here's the thing.
[31:54.570 --> 31:55.910]  I never asked for an account with them.
[31:55.990 --> 31:57.410]  They just took my name from the phone company.
[31:57.510 --> 32:04.450]  This is, this is the cost for taking my name and keeping it, you know, and, and, and that's, they expect me to pay them for that.
[32:04.770 --> 32:05.990]  I don't want them to have my name.
[32:06.110 --> 32:07.110]  I don't want them to have my number.
[32:07.170 --> 32:08.030]  I want them to go away.
[32:08.190 --> 32:11.510]  Well, if the, if the, they'll finally get fed up enough to disconnect.
[32:11.710 --> 32:12.150]  Oh, wait a second.
[32:12.210 --> 32:14.370]  How are they going to disconnect me when I'm not using the service?
[32:15.150 --> 32:17.870]  So there's, there's literally no way out for them right now.
[32:17.930 --> 32:24.690]  They just have to keep threatening me and I don't know what they're going to threaten me with ultimately because I don't believe you can use a late phone bill to affect somebody's credit.
[32:24.830 --> 32:30.090]  I was told that once and, um, I don't know how, if they disconnect me, that's great.
[32:30.190 --> 32:30.830]  That's what I want.
[32:31.650 --> 32:32.210]  We'll see.
[32:32.510 --> 32:41.630]  Well, we'll keep... Before you said you don't have an AT&T account, it's, to me, it sounded a lot, a lot like Sprint PCS who charges customers $3 to pay a bill, uh, in person.
[32:41.750 --> 32:42.250]  Yeah, that's right.
[32:42.270 --> 32:45.070]  But at least, at least you're a customer of Sprint PCS.
[32:45.170 --> 32:45.350]  Right, right.
[32:45.350 --> 32:47.710]  I'm not a customer of AT&T on this particular phone line.
[32:47.810 --> 32:49.190]  I am on a couple other phone lines.
[32:49.650 --> 32:52.530]  And, uh, that's, that's actually a subject of another letter I got from them.
[32:52.830 --> 32:56.470]  Uh, I signed up for this, uh, this plan, which seemed like a pretty good plan.
[32:56.550 --> 33:01.950]  You get seven cents a minute anytime, any place in the country, you know, not bad day or night, seven cents a minute.
[33:02.510 --> 33:06.910]  Um, you have to pay $4.95 for that privilege, though, $4.95 a month.
[33:07.050 --> 33:08.610]  Well, that's the one Paul Reiser advertises.
[33:09.130 --> 33:10.050]  Probably is, yeah.
[33:10.290 --> 33:10.490]  Wow.
[33:10.830 --> 33:16.950]  But, uh, there's also a, a corresponding, uh, a sister rate that goes with that for international calls.
[33:17.050 --> 33:23.330]  For an extra $3 a month, uh, you can get, you know, special rates for other countries as well.
[33:23.470 --> 33:26.970]  And the rates that, uh, that they advertise on their website seem pretty good.
[33:27.070 --> 33:28.890]  For the United Kingdom, 10 cents a minute.
[33:29.390 --> 33:31.330]  You know, South Korea, 17 cents a minute.
[33:31.430 --> 33:31.810]  Not bad.
[33:31.970 --> 33:34.890]  I remember when, you know, these things used to cost over a dollar a minute.
[33:35.130 --> 33:40.330]  Well, I got a letter from them, basically verifying that, uh, I had done this.
[33:40.450 --> 33:42.750]  We're delighted you've decided to take advantage, blah, blah, blah.
[33:43.230 --> 33:49.430]  Uh, and, uh, they just wanted to, uh, to send me a little card that said what it was that I got.
[33:49.850 --> 33:51.190]  And they listed the countries.
[33:51.350 --> 33:54.170]  And they listed the rates for these countries that I had just signed up for.
[33:54.670 --> 33:56.430]  United Kingdom, 12 cents a minute.
[33:56.690 --> 33:58.650]  South Korea, 65 cents a minute.
[33:58.670 --> 33:59.110]  Hey, wait a second.
[33:59.370 --> 34:00.690]  These are not the same numbers.
[34:00.870 --> 34:02.250]  Mexico, 49 cents a minute.
[34:02.350 --> 34:03.710]  On the webpage, it says 35.
[34:04.370 --> 34:05.870]  Japan, 48 cents a minute.
[34:06.010 --> 34:07.370]  On the website, it says 16.
[34:07.910 --> 34:09.050]  So I called them.
[34:09.530 --> 34:12.410]  And, you know, I said, WTF, what, what's going on here?
[34:12.590 --> 34:14.730]  You know, in so many words.
[34:15.310 --> 34:16.790]  And they looked around.
[34:16.910 --> 34:18.990]  They were, they were completely flabbergasted.
[34:19.050 --> 34:23.870]  They had no idea, you know, why these numbers are, are in conflict.
[34:24.310 --> 34:29.410]  Finally, after going to a supervisor's supervisor, they said, uh, the numbers on the website are right.
[34:29.630 --> 34:31.370]  And the numbers that we sent you are wrong.
[34:31.490 --> 34:33.750]  And those are like last year's numbers or something like that.
[34:33.890 --> 34:35.870]  So basically, they mailed you last year's numbers.
[34:35.890 --> 34:42.190]  Basically, AT&T just like pissed off all of their customers by doing this, by sending them a letter with all the wrong rates on them.
[34:42.230 --> 34:43.150]  Well, now look at it this way.
[34:43.230 --> 34:50.390]  You may have affected their, their, uh, sending another letter saying, oh, by the way, ignore what the past thing that we sent you were idiots.
[34:50.630 --> 34:59.390]  And yeah, well, it really got me kind of, uh, kind of flustered there, but, uh, I did verify it on a bill that I actually made calls on and they are charging the right rate on that.
[34:59.690 --> 35:01.310]  But it scared me for, for a little bit.
[35:02.310 --> 35:02.670]  Okay.
[35:02.750 --> 35:10.410]  Now, uh, Mackie, you've got an update on the, uh, lawsuit that we're currently embroiled in and you have some pretty, uh, we actually did get served on Friday.
[35:10.790 --> 35:13.250]  Kind of served, not, not really served, not personally.
[35:13.530 --> 35:17.350]  Uh, we had someone go to the post office box and pick up the package and sign for it.
[35:17.430 --> 35:19.550]  So I guess, uh, well, it's the post office.
[35:19.710 --> 35:21.910]  You don't, you're supposed to tip good service.
[35:22.050 --> 35:22.550]  Yeah, that's true.
[35:22.650 --> 35:26.710]  I was hoping that we would get served by a process server, but we got served by the mailman instead.
[35:26.950 --> 35:30.150]  Uh, so, um, we had a government agent, you know?
[35:30.550 --> 35:33.310]  Yeah, I guess it was a government agent, but a different, a different agent.
[35:33.950 --> 35:39.270]  Uh, we, uh, we got federally owned for many, many pages of, uh, of documentation here.
[35:39.410 --> 35:40.330]  So I'm quite humorous.
[35:40.550 --> 35:40.630]  Yes.
[35:40.810 --> 35:42.090]  So why don't you give us some, some highlights?
[35:42.270 --> 36:00.670]  Well, um, attached to the, uh, latest filings from the DVD CCA is a declaration by one Harvey Shapiro Esquire, who is an attorney for the MPA and had sent the cease and desist letters in November and... That's the Motion Picture Association?
[36:00.850 --> 36:01.090]  Yeah.
[36:01.590 --> 36:02.610]  Isn't that the MPAA?
[36:03.430 --> 36:04.010]  Most Picture Association in America?
[36:04.030 --> 36:05.310]  That's not what it said here.
[36:05.450 --> 36:07.590]  I assume they're, they're the same or related.
[36:07.710 --> 36:09.210]  Their acronyms are kind of, kind of weird.
[36:09.450 --> 36:17.610]  Just so folks know, we're being sued by the DVD industry because we posted, uh, files on how to, how to basically... Source code.
[36:17.770 --> 36:23.750]  Yeah, source code on how to, uh, break their encryption and make as many copies of DVDs as, as, as you want.
[36:23.930 --> 36:29.670]  But more importantly, allow you to play them on, under Linux operating system.
[36:29.670 --> 36:31.690]  That was how this thing was developed in the first place.
[36:31.870 --> 36:36.410]  And you can pirate DVDs regard before this and it's regardless.
[36:36.790 --> 36:55.750]  Anyways, but, uh, he, Harvey Shapiro sent a little declaration, um, declaring that he sent email to various various people who were responsible for sites who, who they allege were publishing links or the source code.
[36:55.990 --> 36:56.410]  Uh huh.
[36:56.410 --> 37:01.450]  And now, he, uh, you know, these things get proofread quite extensively.
[37:02.150 --> 37:04.970]  And this guy is no cheap lawyer.
[37:05.350 --> 37:12.390]  But it really kind of demonstrates how incredibly ignorant they are about the way the web works and the way email works.
[37:12.390 --> 37:14.370]  And just really no concept.
[37:14.830 --> 37:18.890]  So, uh, a couple, a couple excerpts here we'll read for you.
[37:18.890 --> 37:18.890]  Yeah.
[37:19.990 --> 37:37.080]  On November 23rd, I sent a letter via electronic mail to an unknown person with the email address of, here's the email address, http colon slash slash www.songofthesouthathomemail.com.
[37:37.120 --> 37:37.720]  Wait a minute.
[37:37.960 --> 37:38.600]  Wait a minute.
[37:38.660 --> 37:40.400]  They put the at sign in the, in the URL?
[37:41.220 --> 37:41.660]  Well...
[37:41.660 --> 37:42.560]  Where in the world did that go?
[37:42.580 --> 37:44.860]  The first half here looks like a website...
[37:44.860 --> 37:45.020]  Yeah.
[37:45.360 --> 37:45.800]  ...address.
[37:45.800 --> 37:46.900]  And then suddenly it converts.
[37:47.160 --> 37:48.660]  And the second half is an email address.
[37:48.820 --> 37:52.040]  And it, uh, it's just utterly bizarre.
[37:52.160 --> 37:54.320]  Well, he just neglects to mention that it bounced back.
[37:54.420 --> 37:55.900]  That's the kind of weird hybrid of the email address.
[37:55.900 --> 37:59.260]  I would imagine this was a, uh, uh, pasting, cut and paste error.
[37:59.520 --> 37:59.820]  Uh huh.
[37:59.820 --> 38:03.620]  If it weren't for the, uh, the other hilarious ones.
[38:04.760 --> 38:16.000]  For instance, uh, the next one here is the email address, webadmin at zpok.damon.co.uk slash decss.html.
[38:16.180 --> 38:19.040]  Oh, that must have made it to, uh, an interesting place.
[38:19.680 --> 38:23.080]  So, uh, these declarations are filled with little, uh, blunders like that.
[38:23.260 --> 38:23.460]  Oh, yes.
[38:23.680 --> 38:24.160]  Uh huh.
[38:24.340 --> 38:26.800]  They're thoroughly bizarre.
[38:26.980 --> 38:36.380]  Well, I think this kind of goes to show how these people have no real conception of how the networks and how files are easy to copy and, and spread around.
[38:36.600 --> 38:40.820]  And this little encryption scheme they had going really was kind of, kind of worthless.
[38:41.060 --> 38:43.260]  I'm going to skip to my favorite one.
[38:43.520 --> 38:43.620]  What's this?
[38:44.260 --> 38:51.960]  Um, he says, it says that he sent mail to or.at, uh, to the email address.
[38:52.060 --> 38:53.160]  This is the, that's the individual.
[38:53.300 --> 38:58.280]  That's the person who he sent the mail to or.at, which I guess he thought was an organization.
[38:59.200 --> 39:00.440]  Here's the email address.
[39:00.640 --> 39:00.660]  Ready?
[39:01.020 --> 39:01.120]  Uh huh.
[39:01.480 --> 39:06.160]  H-T-T-P colon slash slash F-T-P colon slash slash.
[39:06.320 --> 39:06.460]  Oh boy.
[39:07.700 --> 39:13.840]  Ares.giga.or.at, slash pub, slash hackers, slash crypt.tvd.
[39:14.280 --> 39:20.620]  Now, or.at here is the top level domain, which is akin to .com.
[39:20.800 --> 39:22.460]  It's, uh, an international one.
[39:22.540 --> 39:25.460]  In this case, it would be organization for, I believe, Hungary.
[39:26.000 --> 39:26.280]  Uh huh.
[39:26.280 --> 39:36.780]  Um, in other ones here, he'll send the email to the domain name holder, like, uh, Hotmail.com asking, hey, take this off your site.
[39:37.820 --> 39:37.900]  Um.
[39:38.440 --> 39:39.980]  Except Hotmail doesn't have any web pages.
[39:40.200 --> 39:44.260]  So, so here, here, apparently they thought that or.at was the owner of the site.
[39:46.100 --> 39:46.800]  Oh boy.
[39:47.400 --> 39:47.660]  All right.
[39:47.720 --> 39:50.180]  So that's, that's the basic theme of this thing here.
[39:50.180 --> 39:53.280]  Look at how utterly bizarre that is for, for people who don't know.
[39:53.420 --> 39:53.820]  Uh huh.
[39:53.840 --> 40:00.240]  Uh, the HTTP colon slash slash prefix, which is optional when you're accessing a website.
[40:00.520 --> 40:00.640]  Uh huh.
[40:00.640 --> 40:02.920]  Just tells your browser what protocol to use.
[40:03.000 --> 40:05.340]  It's not part of the actual address.
[40:05.620 --> 40:06.280]  We know that.
[40:06.500 --> 40:07.660]  Well, not everybody.
[40:08.040 --> 40:08.700]  You don't need to tell us that.
[40:08.800 --> 40:10.020]  Not everybody may know that.
[40:10.120 --> 40:10.420]  All right.
[40:10.420 --> 40:16.960]  But if you're planning on filing legal briefs against, uh, people on the internet, be careful, because, uh, you can make a real fool of yourself on the radio.
[40:17.280 --> 40:17.480]  Yes.
[40:17.580 --> 40:19.760]  By, by sending to nonsensical addresses like this.
[40:20.140 --> 40:24.200]  Now, I understand the, the hearing, which is scheduled for this coming Friday, has been postponed?
[40:24.440 --> 40:27.460]  Postponed until Tuesday the 18th.
[40:27.600 --> 40:27.820]  Uh huh.
[40:27.940 --> 40:34.940]  Which, uh, conveniently coincides with an RSA encryption conference within walking distance.
[40:35.100 --> 40:39.260]  So there should be a large number of cryptographers showing up.
[40:39.260 --> 40:39.960]  I'd say 2,000.
[40:40.080 --> 40:44.780]  It's similar to what happened with, uh, Kevin's sentencing hearing when it was right after DEFCON.
[40:45.060 --> 40:46.980]  Well, that's, uh, that's definitely going to be interesting.
[40:48.080 --> 40:48.500]  Okay.
[40:48.760 --> 40:51.820]  Well, uh, unfortunately, we're not on next Tuesday, so we can't report that.
[40:51.920 --> 40:57.060]  But please check our website, uh, 2600.com for, uh, for the latest updates as far as that goes.
[40:57.160 --> 41:03.200]  And so folks know, uh, we, we're not entering into this so that people can pirate videos and things like that.
[41:03.340 --> 41:04.880]  It's, it's a bigger issue than that.
[41:05.020 --> 41:08.560]  It has to do with, uh, developing encryption, uh, behind closed doors.
[41:08.560 --> 41:15.880]  And, and, you know, trying to, uh, say that there's no way that your, uh, you know, our encryption will ever be defeated.
[41:16.080 --> 41:17.520]  And if it is, well, then it's just illegal.
[41:18.340 --> 41:26.120]  We believe people always have the right to test encryption, to be able to, uh, to see just what it is that's being done, uh, with these files.
[41:26.120 --> 41:30.600]  And if you figure it out, you figure it out, you know, it's kind of like a game, I guess.
[41:31.760 --> 41:34.540]  But, um, we'll keep you updated as far as that goes.
[41:34.700 --> 41:36.980]  And that, uh, hearing again a week from today.
[41:38.120 --> 41:38.780]  Really interesting.
[41:39.580 --> 41:41.660]  Any, uh, any particular sites we want to direct people to on that?
[41:42.600 --> 41:43.880]  Apart from, apart from ours?
[41:44.280 --> 41:46.320]  Um, we'll have links on our site.
[41:46.320 --> 41:47.900]  Okay, yeah, we'll have more links up there.
[41:48.420 --> 41:50.480]  Our phone number, 212-209-2900.
[41:50.480 --> 41:51.200]  Give us a call.
[41:51.260 --> 41:53.420]  We'll be taking phone calls for the remainder of the show.
[41:53.560 --> 41:55.500]  And again, we won't be on next week or the week after.
[41:55.640 --> 41:58.060]  So, uh, make them good calls if you call in.
[41:59.160 --> 42:03.280]  Um, we have, uh, a couple of letters from, from listeners.
[42:03.920 --> 42:05.300]  Uh, this person named Stan.
[42:05.480 --> 42:06.620]  I wanted to comment on one reason.
[42:06.620 --> 42:16.740]  I think we seem to be having scare tactics from security agencies, uh, which some theorize may be a ploy to implement laws for surveillance, uh, et cetera, which end in reducing the rights of citizens.
[42:16.860 --> 42:20.860]  Since the Cold War ended, there isn't as high a degree of need for these security agencies.
[42:20.860 --> 42:23.720]  So they must justify their existence and their growth.
[42:23.980 --> 42:26.780]  They continue to grow each year despite the end of the Cold War.
[42:26.920 --> 42:36.000]  So my theory is that these folks may need to make people think the world is more dangerous than it really is to justify bigger budgets, growth, and ultimately their continued operations.
[42:37.420 --> 42:39.080]  Well, the focus has changed.
[42:39.360 --> 42:51.040]  Instead of having this one monolithic enemy across the Atlantic and or Pacific, uh, we now have a bunch of little people to look after all of these third worlds who now have nukes in their hands and everything else.
[42:51.180 --> 42:52.940]  Plus all these hackers running around this country.
[42:53.400 --> 42:54.400]  Yeah, those very dangerous countries.
[42:54.700 --> 42:55.100]  Boogeymen.
[42:55.120 --> 42:56.460]  Boogeymen like, uh, cyber terrorists.
[42:56.780 --> 42:56.960]  Right.
[42:57.200 --> 43:03.600]  They're the best, they're the best enemy because you can never, you can always say they're, they're out there without having to prove it.
[43:04.260 --> 43:04.820]  That's true.
[43:04.820 --> 43:05.240]  That's true.
[43:05.480 --> 43:06.460]  That's the best enemy.
[43:06.460 --> 43:13.500]  If you want, if you're trying to get funding to fight an enemy, you can just say, well, they're out there, you know, we don't have to prove it, but they're there.
[43:13.620 --> 43:14.060]  Believe us.
[43:14.560 --> 43:15.540]  They're under your bed.
[43:15.660 --> 43:22.520]  And every time, every time we see a story like this come out, we're able to dissect it pretty well and see just what it is that they're, uh, really talking about.
[43:22.520 --> 43:24.760]  More times than not, they're not talking about a whole lot.
[43:25.460 --> 43:25.880]  All right.
[43:25.960 --> 43:30.080]  This person, uh, has been doing some experimenting with their phone bill, which is probably illegal under some law.
[43:30.320 --> 43:35.120]  I was listening to, uh, your show on December 14th about phone charges and thought you might find it interesting.
[43:35.920 --> 43:37.440]  Um, I have two lines.
[43:37.440 --> 43:40.180]  I decided to look my phone over both visually and electronically.
[43:40.460 --> 43:42.920]  I scanned the barcodes on both pages of my bill.
[43:43.200 --> 43:50.260]  And it resulted in this on page three, 1-8-0-1-0-2-4-0-0-2-6-9-0-1.
[43:50.260 --> 43:51.840]  Is that some launch code?
[43:51.980 --> 43:56.720]  On page five, 1-8-0-1-0-2-4-0-0-2-6-9-0-2.
[43:57.460 --> 44:00.100]  These numbers don't appear in numeric form any place on my bill.
[44:00.240 --> 44:03.600]  I'm thinking these are the page numbers for the printout of all the bills.
[44:05.040 --> 44:05.460]  Hmm?
[44:05.740 --> 44:06.040]  Yeah.
[44:06.520 --> 44:10.540]  Well, maybe it's all one big phone bill for all of New Jersey or whatever.
[44:11.160 --> 44:11.940]  I don't know.
[44:12.500 --> 44:15.700]  Scan your barcode on your phone bill and see what, what, what, what comes up.
[44:16.400 --> 44:16.840]  Okay.
[44:16.840 --> 44:17.900]  Find out what those numbers mean.
[44:18.600 --> 44:20.400]  That was the first I've heard of it, but all right.
[44:20.560 --> 44:20.960]  Hang on.
[44:21.260 --> 44:21.680]  You're beeping.
[44:22.480 --> 44:24.040]  It's probably the barcode for Pop-Tarts.
[44:24.220 --> 44:24.400]  Yeah.
[44:24.600 --> 44:24.740]  Yeah.
[44:25.440 --> 44:26.480]  That's what it is, all right.
[44:27.020 --> 44:31.320]  Anyway, we have, we have the total for taxes for this person.
[44:31.440 --> 44:37.000]  Taxes and charges, no phone calls, 48-29 taxes and charges, but no phone calls.
[44:37.140 --> 44:37.660]  It's unbelievable.
[44:39.280 --> 44:39.680]  Ah.
[44:39.840 --> 44:40.920]  That's kind of strange.
[44:41.240 --> 44:41.860]  No, it's not actually.
[44:42.040 --> 44:42.360]  It's not.
[44:42.520 --> 44:43.360]  If you look at a phone bill.
[44:43.540 --> 44:44.040]  48 dollars?
[44:44.040 --> 44:48.700]  Yeah, for, for your monthly service and your taxes, without making a single phone call.
[44:49.560 --> 45:05.240]  It would be interesting if our, if our telephone taxes were actually itemized so you could see what, you know, which taxes you were actually paying, but the FCC has, has required, has forced phone companies to not detail what these taxes are for.
[45:05.660 --> 45:09.200]  Um, and there's a whole, it's, it's, it's just like a, it's like a big, uh, slush fund.
[45:09.340 --> 45:11.860]  They just throw all these, compile all these, just as taxes.
[45:12.080 --> 45:13.160]  You don't know what it's, what it is.
[45:13.700 --> 45:14.160]  Uh-huh.
[45:14.200 --> 45:16.380]  Well, these particular taxes, I can itemize these.
[45:16.760 --> 45:21.320]  Um, 43 cents for, uh, for portability?
[45:21.540 --> 45:24.540]  Federal, federal charge, service provider, number portability, 43 cents.
[45:25.160 --> 45:27.620]  Uh, residence line, $12.50.
[45:27.960 --> 45:29.940]  Federal access charge, $3.50.
[45:29.940 --> 45:33.920]  Uh, federal charge, uh, oh wait, it's the same thing.
[45:34.020 --> 45:34.200]  Okay.
[45:35.020 --> 45:38.600]  Uh, federal excise, uh, at 3%, $1.21.
[45:39.000 --> 45:44.380]  City occupation, at, uh, 6.382%.
[45:44.380 --> 45:45.280]  City occupation.
[45:45.540 --> 45:46.260]  I don't know, something in Jersey.
[45:46.440 --> 45:47.740]  $1.79 for that.
[45:47.940 --> 45:51.200]  Uh, federal access charge, additional line, $6.50.
[45:52.320 --> 45:53.700]  Uh, what else?
[45:53.860 --> 45:56.520]  State 911, 20 cents per access line.
[45:56.760 --> 45:57.500]  That's 40 cents.
[45:57.760 --> 45:59.920]  Local 911, 35 cents per access line.
[45:59.920 --> 46:00.740]  70 cents.
[46:01.320 --> 46:05.180]  TRS excise federal ADA requirement, at 15 cents per access line.
[46:05.300 --> 46:05.800]  30 cents.
[46:06.080 --> 46:06.540]  It's got two lines.
[46:07.000 --> 46:09.200]  Telephone assistance program, at 13 cents per access line.
[46:09.300 --> 46:10.000]  26 cents.
[46:10.940 --> 46:16.180]  And, uh, then you have, uh, you have the same thing for, for, uh, long distance.
[46:16.800 --> 46:17.960]  More numbers after that.
[46:18.120 --> 46:19.240]  It just keeps going on.
[46:19.360 --> 46:20.120]  Pages and pages of this.
[46:20.160 --> 46:22.560]  It's the federal line cost charges I was talking about.
[46:22.720 --> 46:23.980]  They, they're not itemized.
[46:24.120 --> 46:32.920]  And they were, it's actually an amalgam of, of a whole bunch of different taxes that they put in under this federal line cost charge and you don't know what they are, courtesy of the FCC.
[46:33.260 --> 46:33.600]  All right.
[46:33.900 --> 46:34.560]  One final letter.
[46:34.720 --> 46:36.060]  Let's, let's get to this and we'll get to the phones.
[46:36.640 --> 46:38.460]  Uh, this person, uh, works in a particular company.
[46:38.560 --> 46:42.980]  I just want to let you know about a corporation that seems to be stomping all over privacy these days.
[46:43.200 --> 46:44.020]  You guessed it.
[46:44.340 --> 46:44.740]  Staples.
[46:44.920 --> 46:56.920]  Not only do they make you use your social security number as your employee pin and make you type it out on the time clock in plain text, you have to enter the first six digits on the register and have the last three as your password.
[46:57.280 --> 47:04.120]  Now call me crazy, but if another, if another employee wanted to mess around with you, all they would need to do is look at the time clock when you were punching in.
[47:04.280 --> 47:08.040]  Your ID number is also on the receipt with the last three digits.
[47:08.040 --> 47:17.680]  But, uh, even if they wanted to get some free merchandise, all they need to do is punch in your number at the register and they, you, you, you get the, uh, you, you get the charge.
[47:17.800 --> 47:21.640]  Another wonderful security policy by our fine friends at Staples.
[47:21.800 --> 47:22.140]  That's right.
[47:23.060 --> 47:23.460]  Okay.
[47:23.500 --> 47:24.940]  Let's take some, uh, phone calls.
[47:25.200 --> 47:26.760]  212-209-2900.
[47:26.960 --> 47:27.500]  Let's go over here.
[47:27.600 --> 47:27.940]  Good evening.
[47:28.100 --> 47:28.580]  You're on the air.
[47:29.560 --> 47:29.760]  Hi.
[47:29.880 --> 47:30.080]  Yes.
[47:30.220 --> 47:30.900]  Three things.
[47:31.600 --> 47:32.440]  Um, two things.
[47:32.820 --> 47:33.640]  Well, two things actually.
[47:34.080 --> 47:36.640]  Did you know, you know there's a student advantage card system?
[47:37.500 --> 47:37.980]  No.
[47:38.340 --> 47:38.620]  All right.
[47:38.760 --> 47:43.680]  What they do is they have a thing where if you're a student, you sign up for the student advantage system.
[47:43.840 --> 47:44.000]  Uh-huh.
[47:44.000 --> 47:46.680]  You pay $20 a month to get all these discounts.
[47:47.040 --> 47:48.460]  Oh, on like Greyhound and...
[47:48.460 --> 47:52.160]  Yeah, and then things like Staples accepted and different clothing stores.
[47:52.360 --> 47:53.600]  But they funnel money.
[47:53.920 --> 47:55.180]  You're not getting a discount.
[47:55.180 --> 47:56.720]  You're getting a 10% discount.
[47:56.720 --> 47:58.320]  But let's say something costs $20.
[47:59.040 --> 48:01.160]  Um, it's, let's say $2 less.
[48:01.440 --> 48:01.720]  Right.
[48:01.980 --> 48:04.840]  They take that $1 and give it back to the store.
[48:04.840 --> 48:05.520]  $2.
[48:05.520 --> 48:06.240]  That's $2 actually.
[48:06.660 --> 48:07.540]  No, they take $1.
[48:07.880 --> 48:09.760]  They have, they have to make a profit, so...
[48:09.760 --> 48:11.680]  But it's one less dollar that you're paying.
[48:12.120 --> 48:12.620]  Yeah, you're...
[48:12.620 --> 48:13.960]  Yeah, but I mean they're funneling money.
[48:14.120 --> 48:19.480]  It's not really a discount because you're paying the $20 and they're sort of funneling the money back to...
[48:19.480 --> 48:21.380]  But you're paying, you're paying $18, right?
[48:21.720 --> 48:21.760]  Right.
[48:21.760 --> 48:23.360]  You're paying 10% less, right?
[48:23.360 --> 48:23.520]  Right.
[48:23.700 --> 48:24.340]  But the thing is...
[48:24.340 --> 48:25.400]  So to you, it's a discount.
[48:25.640 --> 48:29.340]  Well, the thing is, is that on the store's end, that the people who accept it...
[48:29.340 --> 48:29.440]  Right.
[48:29.660 --> 48:32.460]  They're getting a sort of a good deal...
[48:32.460 --> 48:37.880]  In other words, they're giving you a discount, but they're sort of getting some of that money that they discounted...
[48:37.880 --> 48:40.440]  Would you prefer that they just give you a direct discount of 5%?
[48:40.580 --> 48:43.840]  Well, the thing is, is that that's why they don't accept regular student IDs.
[48:44.200 --> 48:44.780]  All right, listen.
[48:45.000 --> 48:46.600]  There's no such thing as a free lunch.
[48:46.660 --> 48:47.320]  I have to say it.
[48:47.540 --> 48:48.900]  Now, let's move on to your second point.
[48:49.060 --> 48:53.960]  Well, my second point is, is that what if you don't have a touch-tone phone or if you don't press anything on a prison system?
[48:54.560 --> 48:55.340]  That's a good question.
[48:55.340 --> 48:56.400]  I'm not sure what happens.
[48:56.540 --> 48:57.500]  I've never tried that.
[48:57.520 --> 49:00.160]  Also, have you ever been to a website that asked you if you were using a mouse?
[49:02.140 --> 49:02.780]  Uh, no.
[49:03.120 --> 49:03.680]  No, I haven't.
[49:04.020 --> 49:05.140]  It's an important question.
[49:05.240 --> 49:07.800]  Well, then why do people, when you call an 800 number, they ask you if you're using a touch-tone phone?
[49:07.960 --> 49:09.340]  Want to hold on and I'll demonstrate?
[49:09.340 --> 49:10.040]  Because you can use a tab on it.
[49:10.040 --> 49:10.320]  No, that's okay.
[49:10.440 --> 49:13.280]  We have to get through a lot more phone calls.
[49:13.280 --> 49:13.940]  That's a valid question.
[49:14.240 --> 49:15.320]  I mean, you could be using links.
[49:16.100 --> 49:18.460]  You could always use the tab key and get to the links.
[49:18.460 --> 49:19.600]  Well, it's not a mouse, is it?
[49:19.840 --> 49:20.180]  Good evening.
[49:20.260 --> 49:20.700]  You're on the air.
[49:21.240 --> 49:21.740]  Hey, what's up?
[49:21.780 --> 49:22.120]  It's Che.
[49:22.360 --> 49:22.820]  How you doing?
[49:23.680 --> 49:26.540]  What do you think about the AOL Time Warner Agreement?
[49:27.040 --> 49:28.480]  Oh, we didn't mention that at all.
[49:28.680 --> 49:31.780]  Well, it's kind of scary to see more consolidation.
[49:32.160 --> 49:36.500]  I mean, you know, CNN, AOL, HBO, it's all the same now.
[49:36.660 --> 49:38.000]  It's going to be the same by the end of the year.
[49:38.520 --> 49:42.800]  Every time I see one of these mega-corporate mergers, it fills me with a sense of dread.
[49:42.800 --> 49:43.140]  Why?
[49:43.620 --> 49:48.300]  Because it's less in the way of competition, less in the way of different companies to use.
[49:48.420 --> 49:53.220]  Basically, try getting away from using one of these companies to access the net.
[49:53.340 --> 49:54.360]  It's going to be impossible.
[49:54.680 --> 49:59.620]  Try getting away from watching the same news coming at you from all different sources now.
[49:59.620 --> 50:01.700]  It's a really frightening thing.
[50:01.800 --> 50:02.760]  Bernie, what do you think of it?
[50:05.040 --> 50:16.660]  Not much we can do about it because there's not a lot of regulatory things against this particular kind of a merger, but it concerns me because all this consolidation means we're getting our information from fewer and fewer sources.
[50:16.660 --> 50:17.900]  It's being consolidated.
[50:18.760 --> 50:25.360]  You're going to be at the point where you almost have to use AOL to download a movie when movies are available.
[50:26.740 --> 50:34.920]  They're going to try to force you to use AOL eventually, I think, to access Time Warner products, like to buy a CD or something.
[50:35.640 --> 50:41.520]  It just seems to me the whole tone of the net is changing, where it's no longer about individual inventiveness.
[50:41.520 --> 50:43.280]  It's all about corporate takeovers.
[50:43.560 --> 50:43.640]  Whoa, whoa, whoa.
[50:43.660 --> 50:44.480]  Where have you been...
[50:44.480 --> 50:46.340]  What network are you on?
[50:47.340 --> 50:48.560]  What do you mean, what network am I on?
[50:48.560 --> 50:49.280]  What network are you on?
[50:49.320 --> 50:50.220]  How has the internet changed?
[50:50.580 --> 50:51.820]  How has the internet changed?
[50:52.100 --> 50:52.680]  All right, I understand.
[50:52.880 --> 50:53.100]  Fine.
[50:53.300 --> 50:54.780]  What internet are you on, buddy?
[50:54.920 --> 50:55.220]  Fine.
[50:55.600 --> 50:56.580]  What sites...
[50:56.580 --> 50:56.820]  All right.
[50:57.200 --> 50:58.520]  You have this...
[50:58.520 --> 51:03.000]  I understand that you have this distaste for things like TBS, AOL, and so on and so forth.
[51:03.200 --> 51:04.700]  What is forcing you to go to those sites?
[51:04.720 --> 51:05.500]  I don't have anything against TBS.
[51:06.140 --> 51:06.940]  You have nothing against TBS?
[51:06.940 --> 51:08.260]  I don't have anything against CNN either, for that matter.
[51:08.360 --> 51:08.520]  Okay.
[51:08.520 --> 51:13.640]  But when CNN gets taken over by Time Warner, all of a sudden, CNN loses some of its independence.
[51:14.200 --> 51:20.260]  How does this affect someone like Matt Drudge or some of these other sites that are on the Internet?
[51:20.300 --> 51:21.280]  Well, nothing will affect someone like Matt Drudge.
[51:21.280 --> 51:22.300]  Which you are still capable of visiting.
[51:23.600 --> 51:25.100]  It's a matter of your personal choice.
[51:25.280 --> 51:25.700]  Here's the thing, okay?
[51:25.880 --> 51:32.960]  When ABC got taken over by Disney, all of a sudden, ABC found it a lot more difficult to do news stories about Disney.
[51:33.060 --> 51:38.960]  In fact, there have been two cases where stories about Disney have been taken off the air because people at Disney objected.
[51:39.220 --> 51:43.960]  Now, when you have these corporations taking over news agencies...
[51:43.960 --> 51:45.560]  Which is why they are no longer trusted.
[51:45.620 --> 51:46.800]  Like Microsoft and MSNBC.
[51:47.300 --> 51:48.560]  Yeah, Microsoft and MSNBC.
[51:48.580 --> 51:53.140]  This is why you should no longer trust those outlets as viable means of collecting information.
[51:53.140 --> 51:56.120]  Okay, Isaac, so yeah, let's go out there and start our own TV station.
[51:56.280 --> 51:59.720]  Because it's prohibitively expensive for people like us to do this.
[51:59.820 --> 52:04.720]  And that's what the net is changing into, where you can't do things that involve individual inventiveness.
[52:04.720 --> 52:06.680]  Someone is presenting you from setting up a website?
[52:06.960 --> 52:08.380]  We're not talking about websites.
[52:08.380 --> 52:13.220]  Someone is preventing you from, like, contacting the people who are actually involved in these news stories?
[52:13.780 --> 52:19.940]  The wonderful gift of the internet is that we're allowed to publish things directly from the source.
[52:20.100 --> 52:21.780]  You don't have to go through AP and Reuters.
[52:21.940 --> 52:22.660]  We're allowed to.
[52:22.800 --> 52:30.720]  And by giving the authority to all the same people, making it one big corporate entity, they'll decide what they allow and what they don't allow.
[52:30.900 --> 52:33.460]  And you'll find they don't allow a lot in the future.
[52:33.640 --> 52:35.800]  I can't even access my own damn router anymore.
[52:35.800 --> 52:36.600]  So this large corporate...
[52:36.600 --> 52:37.280]  I mean, come on.
[52:37.480 --> 52:39.560]  Well, I would suggest that you not use that company.
[52:39.740 --> 52:39.840]  Right.
[52:39.940 --> 52:43.060]  And tell them that you're not using that company because you can't access your router.
[52:43.140 --> 52:44.860]  Then I can't get high-speed internet access.
[52:44.960 --> 52:45.600]  You see how it works?
[52:45.660 --> 52:46.820]  You don't play by the rules.
[52:46.900 --> 52:47.840]  You don't get the access.
[52:48.140 --> 52:48.260]  Okay.
[52:48.400 --> 52:51.400]  And that's the danger, though, behind consolidation is...
[52:51.400 --> 52:51.740]  Exactly, Isaac.
[52:51.880 --> 52:54.900]  That's your response is, well, then don't use them.
[52:54.900 --> 53:03.520]  But when you have this massive consolidation happening, you get less and less alternative things to use until you are stuck with one.
[53:03.540 --> 53:05.760]  Well, it is a matter of choice.
[53:06.820 --> 53:08.960]  You can choose not to use it.
[53:09.120 --> 53:09.300]  Okay.
[53:09.640 --> 53:11.660]  No, it's not just choosing not to use it.
[53:11.740 --> 53:12.900]  It's five years ago.
[53:13.380 --> 53:14.480]  As an example, Home Depot.
[53:14.780 --> 53:15.180]  Okay.
[53:15.280 --> 53:16.600]  Home Depot is now at...
[53:16.600 --> 53:20.720]  They've reached a critical mass where they're pushing all the little hardware stores out of business.
[53:21.160 --> 53:24.260]  Five years ago, when you had to go buy a hammer, where did you go?
[53:25.160 --> 53:27.060]  I already had a hammer, so I didn't have to go anywhere.
[53:27.360 --> 53:27.380]  Okay.
[53:27.680 --> 53:30.860]  Your friend Joe needed to buy a hammer five years ago.
[53:30.860 --> 53:32.480]  I would imagine he'd go to a hardware store.
[53:32.580 --> 53:33.840]  That's what my first thought was.
[53:33.840 --> 53:35.820]  Did he go to Home Depot or did he go to the local hardware store?
[53:35.820 --> 53:37.400]  I don't remember Home Depot five years ago.
[53:37.620 --> 53:38.840]  But what's the point?
[53:39.040 --> 53:47.760]  The point is that before Home Depot reached this critical mass where they are suddenly this movable force.
[53:47.940 --> 53:48.100]  Right.
[53:48.260 --> 53:48.880]  Not immovable.
[53:48.880 --> 53:51.420]  I'm looking for the right adjective, but I'd rather continue my rant.
[53:52.060 --> 54:09.060]  You should have thought about going to your local hardware store and supporting him rather than going to just reaching for the lower price at all costs, getting the one less dollar instead of giving it to your local guy because you have basically created these huge monsters.
[54:09.060 --> 54:21.520]  But the way AOL has presented itself and the way it's acted in the market, yeah, you always have a choice, but it's not as much of an option for most people as it is for us.
[54:22.160 --> 54:31.680]  In the ease of use, most people don't have the time or the knowledge to seek out these alternative services providers, and eventually none of us will.
[54:32.060 --> 54:35.720]  America Online, by what you're saying, America Online offers a superior product.
[54:36.780 --> 54:39.480]  But it's not necessarily true.
[54:39.540 --> 54:42.580]  That's not necessarily why they've prevailed, though.
[54:42.600 --> 54:43.780]  Well, why do people go to America Online?
[54:44.220 --> 54:47.240]  Because they mailed out more floppy disks than they serve.
[54:47.240 --> 54:47.580]  Oh, I see.
[54:47.720 --> 54:49.620]  Easy accessibility there in every city.
[54:49.620 --> 54:54.680]  Because they prevented your local internet company from walking around town knocking at doors and passing out flyers.
[54:54.780 --> 54:56.620]  Well, maybe they didn't have the business savvy or the capital to...
[54:56.620 --> 54:56.960]  Oh, hey!
[54:57.060 --> 54:59.560]  I think it's got to do with cash flow.
[54:59.640 --> 55:00.980]  Yeah, maybe they didn't have the capital to...
[55:00.980 --> 55:02.600]  Well, who gave them the cash to do this?
[55:02.700 --> 55:04.600]  You remember when floppy disks used to be...
[55:04.600 --> 55:05.200]  Don't look at me.
[55:05.300 --> 55:06.180]  I didn't give AOL a pen.
[55:06.180 --> 55:06.700]  Wait, wait, wait.
[55:07.260 --> 55:09.560]  Do you remember when floppy disks used to be expensive?
[55:09.860 --> 55:10.280]  Yes, I do.
[55:10.360 --> 55:11.160]  And remember now...
[55:11.160 --> 55:12.460]  Oh, floppy disks are expensive now.
[55:12.740 --> 55:13.100]  Where...
[55:13.100 --> 55:15.880]  No, um, how about your fries electronics?
[55:15.880 --> 55:20.120]  You can get a $15 rebate on a $15 box of floppies.
[55:20.280 --> 55:25.000]  It's because AOL mailed out so many floppy disks, they single-handedly destroyed prices.
[55:25.000 --> 55:26.340]  What does this have to do with corporate?
[55:26.580 --> 55:29.240]  It demonstrates their awesome power.
[55:29.680 --> 55:33.620]  That's just how many floppy disks they were able to mail out.
[55:33.620 --> 55:43.160]  That awesome power was granted to them by a public who liked their service, purchased their service, and was very happy cowering under the weight of America Online.
[55:43.400 --> 55:44.300]  I don't know about that.
[55:44.500 --> 55:45.720]  I don't agree.
[55:45.720 --> 55:47.140]  You fund these people.
[55:47.360 --> 55:48.480]  You give them the power that they have.
[55:48.480 --> 55:49.500]  How do I fund these people?
[55:49.520 --> 55:50.360]  I've got nothing to do with this.
[55:50.360 --> 55:51.960]  By the choices you make every day.
[55:52.340 --> 55:54.080]  Well, hey, Lister.
[55:54.180 --> 55:54.820]  Lister is here.
[55:55.180 --> 55:56.360]  Lister, where'd you come from?
[55:56.840 --> 55:57.280]  Mars.
[55:57.540 --> 55:59.240]  Listen, I don't think so.
[55:59.280 --> 56:08.460]  As long as these capitalists are in control, the name of the game from AOL and one is that they're just going to erode such things as freedom of speech.
[56:08.880 --> 56:09.740]  I mean, seriously.
[56:10.080 --> 56:10.820]  Then don't support them.
[56:10.880 --> 56:14.040]  You're going to be in a room, and you're going to be saying something, and nobody can hear you.
[56:14.040 --> 56:21.700]  It's like when Donald Trump took the $30,000 page ad in the New York Times and called all these black people, whatever you call them.
[56:21.940 --> 56:23.320]  How do we respond to that?
[56:23.400 --> 56:30.340]  We don't have no $50 million to flood the airways with ads saying that to hell with DonaldTrump.com.
[56:30.340 --> 56:32.980]  Well, I think Isaac would say, don't visit DonaldTrump.com.
[56:33.000 --> 56:33.720]  Don't have to read the page, right?
[56:33.720 --> 56:34.500]  Ignore Donald Trump.
[56:35.460 --> 56:37.940]  I wish we had more time, but we're out of time, unfortunately.
[56:37.940 --> 56:39.280]  We could talk about this for an hour.
[56:39.420 --> 56:39.520]  Yes, we could.
[56:39.520 --> 56:39.840]  And you know what?
[56:40.100 --> 56:42.420]  Let's do it next time we come on, which will be in three weeks.
[56:43.100 --> 56:44.440]  I'm sorry we didn't talk about it sooner.
[56:44.580 --> 56:46.140]  Bernie, any closing thoughts from you?
[56:47.460 --> 56:49.140]  Be gentle with Kevin Mitnick.
[56:49.300 --> 56:53.300]  It's going to be a traumatic experience, I predict, for him getting out of prison.
[56:53.300 --> 56:58.360]  When I got out after... I was only in there 14 months, and he's been in there for like five years.
[56:58.840 --> 57:01.240]  It's not... you don't feel like you want to celebrate.
[57:01.240 --> 57:04.620]  You feel like you're in shock, basically.
[57:04.620 --> 57:06.600]  It takes a long period of adjustment.
[57:07.000 --> 57:12.140]  And don't expect him to be like jumping for joy, because it's not that way.
[57:13.020 --> 57:16.840]  He's been undergoing five years of constant psychological abuse.
[57:17.520 --> 57:23.280]  And it's... just understand that this guy's been basically tortured mentally for five years.
[57:23.300 --> 57:25.280]  And that's where he's coming from.
[57:25.380 --> 57:26.640]  So he's not going to be jumping for joy.
[57:26.800 --> 57:29.660]  He's going to take... it's going to be a long, slow recovery for him.
[57:29.680 --> 57:30.960]  And I wish him the best of luck.
[57:31.340 --> 57:34.300]  And he's going to need our support in the months ahead as well.
[57:34.640 --> 57:34.960]  Absolutely.
[57:35.340 --> 57:37.680]  Thanks very much, Bernie, for being here.
[57:37.900 --> 57:39.960]  And hopefully we'll talk to you again in three weeks.
[57:40.940 --> 57:42.340]  Mackie, thanks for coming out from California.
[57:42.940 --> 57:43.220]  Thank you.
[57:43.280 --> 57:43.920]  It's been fun.
[57:44.040 --> 57:46.140]  Yeah, we'll see you again at some point in the future.
[57:46.360 --> 57:47.180]  I'm going to go back to Queens.
[57:47.220 --> 57:47.740]  Go back to Queens.
[57:48.420 --> 57:50.760]  And Lister, thanks for stopping in.
[57:50.880 --> 57:51.620]  I'll go back to Mars.
[57:51.780 --> 57:52.560]  Go back to Mars, yeah.
[57:53.920 --> 57:54.740]  This is Emmanuel.
[57:55.020 --> 57:57.160]  We're off for the next couple of weeks.
[57:57.260 --> 57:58.900]  But we'll be back again in three weeks.
[57:59.260 --> 58:00.800]  Until then, support the station.
[58:01.000 --> 58:03.280]  Pledge as much as you can during the marathon.
[58:03.900 --> 58:05.860]  And we'll see you again in the future.
[58:06.340 --> 58:06.600]  Good night.
[59:02.790 --> 59:04.190]  This is Ramsey Clark.
[59:04.190 --> 59:06.730]  This week, we'll be traveling to Iraq.
[59:07.210 --> 59:13.830]  60 persons in a delegation that will carry $2 million worth of badly needed medicine to the people of Iraq.
[59:14.010 --> 59:19.310]  On Thursday, January 13th, the Iraq Sanctions Challenge will hold a rally at 7 p.m.
[59:19.330 --> 59:21.930]  in New York City at 33 West 14th Street.
[59:22.250 --> 59:29.550]  Speakers will include the Reverend Lucius Walker, Suhair Sukari, Ray LaForest, and Michael Tarif Warren, among many others.
[59:29.910 --> 59:30.910]  Please be there.
[59:31.050 --> 59:31.690]  We need you.
[59:31.930 --> 59:34.070]  Thursday, January 13th, 7 p.m.
[59:34.210 --> 59:36.170]  at 33 West 14th Street.
[59:36.170 --> 59:40.810]  If you need to call, 212-633-6646.
[59:41.130 --> 59:45.430]  212-633-6646 for information.
[59:53.320 --> 59:58.800]  This is WBI 99.5 FM in New York.
[59:59.080 --> 01:00:01.180]  Stay tuned for Tahrir.
[01:00:29.090 --> 01:00:30.090]  Good evening.
[01:00:30.390 --> 01:00:38.490]  This is Jad Abumrad, welcoming you to another edition of Tahrir, the weekly magazine of the Arab and Muslim communities here and abroad.
[01:00:38.750 --> 01:00:47.370]  We begin today's program with a commentary by Hussain Ibish, speaking with Barbara Nimri Aziz about the talks between Syria and Israel.
[01:00:50.130 --> 01:00:51.830]  Okay, well, here we are.
[01:00:51.970 --> 01:01:03.130]  This is Barbara Nimri Aziz, and my guest is our regular commentator, Hussain Ibish, who's also the media director for Arab American Anti-Discrimination Committee in Washington, D.C.
[01:01:03.290 --> 01:01:05.390]  Welcome again to WBI, Hussain Ibish.
[01:01:05.410 --> 01:01:05.930]  It's a pleasure, Barbara.
[01:01:06.050 --> 01:01:06.790]  Thank you very much.