[00:01.040 --> 00:05.480]  Because some things are just too precious to lose.
[00:05.760 --> 00:08.340]  Like non-commercial WBAI.
[00:08.540 --> 00:11.560]  For everything else, there's the corporate media.
[00:22.640 --> 00:24.780]  The prison system is out of control.
[00:25.060 --> 00:27.200]  And you have a loved one caught in the struggle.
[00:27.840 --> 00:29.220]  Suddenly you're in it too.
[00:30.200 --> 00:33.980]  Sometimes you're depressed and frustrated because you miss them and you love them.
[00:34.160 --> 00:35.740]  And you've done everything you could.
[00:36.380 --> 00:39.780]  Other times you're angry and resentful because you can't do anymore.
[00:39.780 --> 00:41.600]  Well, now you can.
[00:42.040 --> 00:48.200]  Send a message or a shout out over the airwaves with WBAI's new service dedicated to prisoners and their families.
[00:48.680 --> 00:52.460]  Let them know you're thinking of them wherever the system takes them.
[00:53.000 --> 00:58.300]  Just that little bit of encouragement and love will mean so much in the monotony of doing time.
[00:59.340 --> 01:03.180]  Call 212-209-2958.
[01:03.620 --> 01:06.020]  Stay tuned for the exact times of the broadcast.
[01:07.060 --> 01:10.840]  That's 212-209-2958.
[01:11.440 --> 01:14.200]  Now that's something that can't be confiscated.
[01:23.760 --> 01:29.580]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York where the time is actually a few moments before 8 o'clock.
[01:29.720 --> 01:33.940]  But we're going to use that extra time for this edition of Off the Hook.
[01:39.580 --> 01:40.900]  Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.
[01:40.900 --> 01:41.680]  That sounds terrible.
[01:41.820 --> 01:42.340]  That sounds awful.
[01:42.440 --> 01:43.820]  Okay, I realize now it's the machine.
[01:43.860 --> 01:47.160]  I thought before Robert Knight was underwater for some reason.
[01:47.280 --> 01:49.940]  But let's move to the good machine, which is over here.
[01:50.000 --> 01:51.360]  And our theme will sound so much better.
[03:31.910 --> 03:32.970]  And a good evening to everybody.
[03:33.090 --> 03:33.830]  Program is Off the Hook.
[03:34.010 --> 03:35.270]  It's Emmanuel Goldstein here with you.
[03:35.350 --> 03:36.590]  Isaac over on the other side of the room.
[03:36.730 --> 03:37.110]  How are you doing, sir?
[03:37.330 --> 03:37.850]  Bernie S.
[03:38.010 --> 03:38.490]  over in Philadelphia.
[03:38.970 --> 03:39.550]  Good evening.
[03:39.550 --> 03:40.150]  How are you?
[03:40.670 --> 03:41.030]  Good evening.
[03:41.530 --> 03:44.070]  It's been a fun, crazy, wacky week here.
[03:44.390 --> 03:48.010]  And, well, I guess we should just get right into it.
[03:50.650 --> 03:52.170]  What's the theme of this week, Isaac?
[03:52.490 --> 03:53.350]  I have no idea.
[03:53.510 --> 03:57.910]  Well, what's everybody been talking about over the past week since we got off the air last week?
[03:58.790 --> 03:59.230]  Cyberterrorism.
[03:59.670 --> 04:00.310]  Cyberterrorism, yeah.
[04:00.930 --> 04:04.910]  Cyberterrorism and all the awful things that those people on the Internet are doing to us.
[04:05.250 --> 04:07.850]  It's really something, isn't it?
[04:08.290 --> 04:13.970]  Well, you've got to keep in mind that this was discussed about a month or so ago or even longer ago by the Clinton administration.
[04:14.510 --> 04:17.970]  So, this is just their predictions coming to fruition.
[04:18.290 --> 04:20.090]  Well, yeah, you know, I have to wonder about that.
[04:20.230 --> 04:24.010]  How, whenever something happens, they're always right there with, like, a presentation of some sort.
[04:24.070 --> 04:28.070]  You know, well, you know, we can solve this with, you know, this kind of a budget for cyberterrorism.
[04:28.210 --> 04:30.370]  What's interesting is that there are a few days beforehand.
[04:30.550 --> 04:30.790]  Mm-hmm.
[04:31.990 --> 04:32.310]  Consistently.
[04:32.590 --> 04:32.670]  Yeah.
[04:34.710 --> 04:38.070]  And people seem to think I'm cynical, but anyway, we'll continue.
[04:39.710 --> 04:42.910]  Well, I think as far as cynicism goes, there's a lot of competition here.
[04:43.050 --> 04:53.450]  But I've never seen such ignorance in my life as I've seen over the past week with regards to pointing fingers and blaming hackers for all the things that are going on.
[04:53.450 --> 04:58.130]  And, I mean, basically what you have, you have some idiot going out there, flooding some sites.
[04:58.170 --> 04:59.610]  And we're not even talking a lot of sites.
[04:59.710 --> 05:00.970]  We're talking a handful of sites.
[05:01.130 --> 05:06.410]  The only reason why this has been on the front page of every paper is because they're big, rich sites.
[05:06.730 --> 05:09.970]  And, you know, I really don't care that much if they're on or off the net.
[05:10.150 --> 05:14.390]  Even though, you know, we're a customer of one of those services, probably several of those services.
[05:14.890 --> 05:16.870]  I don't really care that much about it.
[05:16.950 --> 05:17.810]  You know, it's part of the net.
[05:17.930 --> 05:20.750]  It's part of the whole thing as being on the net.
[05:20.930 --> 05:23.610]  It's one of the hazards, and you have to fix things like this.
[05:24.210 --> 05:31.190]  So it kind of annoys me that a lot of things go unreported, but this, because it affects, you know, the cyber commerce people.
[05:31.430 --> 05:31.750]  Of course.
[05:31.910 --> 05:33.430]  Yeah, it's a big deal.
[05:33.630 --> 05:35.390]  First of all, the net was not taken down.
[05:35.510 --> 05:40.810]  It was a few sites that were crippled by, you know, morons flooding them with data.
[05:40.810 --> 05:43.690]  And second of all, this had nothing to do with hacking.
[05:44.310 --> 05:49.290]  I mean, everywhere I looked, CNN was by far the worst culprit as far as national media.
[05:49.450 --> 05:56.710]  I mean, I've never seen such ignorance as far as just going out and blaming people for no reason at all.
[05:57.090 --> 05:59.690]  You know, just saying, these are hackers.
[05:59.990 --> 06:03.850]  I think one of the exact quotes was, anybody could do this.
[06:04.030 --> 06:07.410]  We have no idea who did it, but hackers are responsible.
[06:08.610 --> 06:09.510]  Think about that.
[06:09.510 --> 06:10.850]  What kind of logic is that?
[06:10.990 --> 06:16.130]  On the other hand, on Wednesday morning, I was listening to some of the radio programs that I listened to in the mornings.
[06:16.490 --> 06:23.090]  And I was a little more impressed that I was actually listening for Hacker to show up.
[06:23.290 --> 06:25.470]  And it only showed up in about half of the presentation.
[06:25.470 --> 06:30.950]  So they're either getting better or they're writing too quickly and, you know, forgetting to leave that in there.
[06:31.090 --> 06:37.510]  Well, the only people that seems to have gotten it right were ABC News, as far as web people.
[06:37.510 --> 06:38.190]  Web people.
[06:38.510 --> 06:39.970]  Yeah, I was scanning all the sites.
[06:40.050 --> 06:42.310]  In fact, you can look on 2600.com.
[06:42.310 --> 06:43.810]  You'll see we did a story about it.
[06:43.850 --> 06:48.090]  And we did sort of a survey as to how many times hackers were blamed.
[06:49.050 --> 06:51.870]  And CNN, I think, was like 20 times or something in the story.
[06:52.030 --> 06:52.990]  But ABC was zero.
[06:53.210 --> 06:53.830]  I was very happy.
[06:53.910 --> 06:56.890]  Even beat out ZD, which I expected ZD to get zero.
[06:56.970 --> 06:58.730]  But no, they actually blamed hackers a few times.
[06:58.730 --> 07:00.370]  Well, I think they're getting better.
[07:00.930 --> 07:01.330]  Yeah.
[07:01.570 --> 07:03.450]  I did see one interesting thing, Emmanuel.
[07:03.630 --> 07:12.530]  And that was last Wednesday, I believe, there was a press conference with our Attorney General, Janet Reno, and some FBI honchos.
[07:12.850 --> 07:15.010]  It's funny how her schedule is always clear.
[07:15.750 --> 07:20.570]  When something like this happens, she's got time to talk to people about her plans, you know?
[07:20.570 --> 07:21.150]  Sure.
[07:21.390 --> 07:28.390]  But one thing I noted was they didn't use the word hacker very much in this press conference.
[07:28.390 --> 07:34.790]  But they did use the phrase the intruder community several times, which I thought was sort of a positive thing.
[07:34.930 --> 07:36.250]  Whoa, it's a new community out there, right?
[07:36.530 --> 07:38.150]  Intruder community, which is what...
[07:38.150 --> 07:39.050]  I mean, these guys were intruders.
[07:39.090 --> 07:40.590]  Well, they weren't really intruders.
[07:40.990 --> 07:42.070]  They did not get inside...
[07:42.070 --> 07:42.530]  Exactly.
[07:42.650 --> 07:43.030]  I understand.
[07:43.290 --> 07:44.030]  They didn't get in anything.
[07:44.430 --> 07:47.330]  But at least they didn't use the phrase hackers.
[07:48.950 --> 07:49.270]  Yeah.
[07:49.690 --> 07:50.770]  Or cyber terrorists.
[07:51.290 --> 07:54.110]  I've actually noticed that with the FBI.
[07:54.170 --> 07:58.430]  They've been saying things like vandals, intruders, words like that, which are far more appropriate.
[07:58.730 --> 08:00.230]  Could it be that we're getting through to them?
[08:00.370 --> 08:03.490]  Well, we may be getting through to them, but the media isn't getting the message.
[08:03.730 --> 08:06.610]  That's the problem, because the media is the conduit to the people.
[08:06.850 --> 08:12.570]  And I've gotten so much, or we've gotten actually at the magazine, so much crazy mail.
[08:12.570 --> 08:16.210]  I'd say it's hate mail, a lot of it, from people saying, Why did you do this to the net?
[08:16.210 --> 08:17.030]  You broke the internet.
[08:17.290 --> 08:18.250]  You know, how dare you?
[08:19.490 --> 08:22.190]  You claim to stand up for freedom, and yet you do something like this.
[08:22.250 --> 08:23.270]  And my personal favor.
[08:23.370 --> 08:26.030]  Well, now you know what gun owners are like, you know, what we have to go through.
[08:26.150 --> 08:27.190]  It's like, give me a break.
[08:27.290 --> 08:28.570]  Like, that has anything to do with this.
[08:31.210 --> 08:33.430]  So, it's been a trying week, to say the least.
[08:33.470 --> 08:41.770]  You know, we have to deal with all this garbage that, first of all, hackers are the ones that probably are most pissed off by all this, because it really makes things annoying.
[08:41.990 --> 08:46.030]  It really, it's juvenile behavior that's destructive.
[08:46.510 --> 08:49.350]  Now, keep in mind, a hacker can figure out how to do it.
[08:49.450 --> 08:50.790]  A hacker can tell you how it's done.
[08:50.890 --> 08:51.550]  Does that mean...
[08:51.550 --> 08:55.390]  A hacker probably already did it, and these people are just using the tools that the hacker wrote.
[08:55.530 --> 08:55.670]  Right.
[08:55.670 --> 08:56.070]  Exactly.
[08:56.290 --> 08:56.390]  Right.
[08:56.570 --> 09:06.290]  Now, if we were to print something like this, we were to print information as to how it works, of course, we'd be blamed, just like with the CSS code, you know, with the lawsuit we're currently facing.
[09:06.770 --> 09:08.410]  It's not the knowledge, folks.
[09:08.610 --> 09:10.230]  The knowledge is not the threat.
[09:10.650 --> 09:12.790]  You know, it's what you do with the knowledge.
[09:12.990 --> 09:17.490]  And you can't go outlawing knowledge because of what some moron is going to do with it.
[09:17.670 --> 09:23.910]  I mean, we've had a long history of this in this country with, you know, freedom of speech and the right to publish controversial things.
[09:24.310 --> 09:26.950]  And we seem to be forgetting that just because computers are involved.
[09:27.610 --> 09:31.070]  I mean, Bernie, you've had some firsthand knowledge as far as that kind of ignorance, right?
[09:31.750 --> 09:32.110]  Yeah.
[09:32.270 --> 09:40.630]  I mean, I spent 14 months in prison for possessing knowledge, and I was not even accused of using it in any way that victimized anyone.
[09:40.830 --> 09:43.010]  But, and then, you know, look at Kevin Mitnick.
[09:43.050 --> 09:44.110]  He spent five years in prison.
[09:44.250 --> 09:49.890]  He wasn't accused of really damaging anything, but he possessed some knowledge.
[09:50.070 --> 09:53.110]  And, yeah, he did some things, but certainly it wasn't worth five years in prison.
[09:53.910 --> 09:54.310]  Absolutely.
[09:54.650 --> 09:57.970]  By the way, Kevin will probably be on again next week.
[09:58.110 --> 10:00.230]  We had a great response to the show.
[10:00.410 --> 10:04.770]  In fact, we had three times as many listeners on the Real Audio stream.
[10:04.970 --> 10:08.510]  Thanks to all the Real Media, Real Audio, MP3 people.
[10:09.170 --> 10:11.050]  Thanks to all them for coding and serving.
[10:11.490 --> 10:13.890]  And I think we're still looking for some QuickTime servers.
[10:13.950 --> 10:20.190]  Anybody out there wants to, or QuickTime coders, anyone out there wants to do that, please contact us, OTH, at 2600.com.
[10:20.290 --> 10:24.130]  But it was great having Kevin on last week telling his story.
[10:24.470 --> 10:25.990]  In fact, Kevin's been all over the media.
[10:25.990 --> 10:27.930]  He's been on CNN a few times.
[10:27.950 --> 10:32.630]  He was on, what's that legal show they have in the daytime?
[10:33.170 --> 10:34.150]  I have no idea.
[10:34.250 --> 10:35.090]  You don't watch CNN, do you?
[10:35.190 --> 10:35.370]  No.
[10:35.490 --> 10:36.170]  I don't have cable.
[10:36.330 --> 10:37.630]  Yeah, I can't remember the name.
[10:37.710 --> 10:41.650]  But it's the one where they, you know, LJ Simpson started it when, you know, he got in trouble.
[10:41.650 --> 10:43.210]  And they had a daily show about it.
[10:43.250 --> 10:44.570]  Then it turned into Burden of Proof.
[10:44.670 --> 10:44.930]  That's it.
[10:44.950 --> 10:45.410]  Burden of Proof.
[10:45.510 --> 10:45.630]  Yeah.
[10:45.910 --> 10:47.250]  So he was on that show.
[10:47.410 --> 10:50.410]  He was on some Fox thing.
[10:50.530 --> 10:51.630]  But nobody watched his Fox.
[10:51.630 --> 10:52.090]  I thought it was...
[10:52.090 --> 10:55.570]  Did you find it amusing that they kept asking, well, what do you know about this, Kevin?
[10:55.730 --> 11:04.450]  And he kept having to say, well, since I'm pretty much cut off from the rest of the world since I don't have access to the net, I really don't know a whole lot about what happened in this incident.
[11:04.770 --> 11:05.010]  Right.
[11:05.230 --> 11:05.710]  Right, exactly.
[11:05.970 --> 11:17.030]  There was one station out in California, an NPR station, that actually had the audacity to say, after reporting on the denial of service attack, Kevin Mitnick has been freed now for a month.
[11:17.090 --> 11:18.710]  You know, as if that had anything to do with it.
[11:19.030 --> 11:19.190]  Oh.
[11:19.190 --> 11:19.710]  You know, they...
[11:19.710 --> 11:20.610]  I knew that was coming.
[11:20.730 --> 11:20.890]  Yeah.
[11:20.970 --> 11:25.430]  It was a local newscast at some NPR station in California that somebody sent us mail about.
[11:25.490 --> 11:26.910]  I just cannot believe that...
[11:26.910 --> 11:31.150]  Well, some guy was sitting in the news office and, like, smacks his forehead and goes, I can't believe it.
[11:31.270 --> 11:31.950]  They're connected.
[11:32.310 --> 11:32.570]  Yeah.
[11:33.710 --> 11:35.390]  Unlike his brain and the rest of it.
[11:35.470 --> 11:35.830]  Exactly.
[11:36.270 --> 11:40.790]  Well, in any event, that's been the kind of week we've had.
[11:40.790 --> 11:44.670]  And, Bernie, you have an interesting story down there that you've found.
[11:45.450 --> 11:47.770]  Oh, about the Northwest Airlines incident?
[11:47.950 --> 11:51.670]  Yeah, you told me this before, and it really scared me a lot that I swerved off the road, in fact.
[11:52.010 --> 11:52.410]  Oh.
[11:52.650 --> 11:52.790]  Yeah.
[11:53.030 --> 11:54.350]  Isaac, you're going to love this one.
[11:54.430 --> 11:55.110]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[11:55.210 --> 11:55.370]  Tell us.
[11:55.390 --> 12:06.470]  Well, around the New Year's holiday, apparently a bunch of Northwest Airlines flight attendants organized a sick-out for whatever reason.
[12:06.590 --> 12:09.990]  I don't know whether they were afraid of Y2K catastrophes or whatever.
[12:10.370 --> 12:19.410]  Apparently, that's in violation of FAA regulations and perhaps the airline's employee rules or whatever.
[12:19.590 --> 12:21.290]  You can't have an organized sick-out.
[12:21.430 --> 12:22.950]  That's, in fact, it's illegal.
[12:23.110 --> 12:24.270]  It's a federal crime.
[12:25.870 --> 12:27.250]  So, there was a sick-out.
[12:27.430 --> 12:29.310]  And, you know, how do you prove that?
[12:29.450 --> 12:30.350]  You can't have people...
[12:30.350 --> 12:31.730]  How can you prove these people didn't get sick?
[12:31.850 --> 12:33.490]  Well, I'll tell you what they tried to do this time.
[12:33.490 --> 12:49.530]  Northwest Airlines, after the sick-out, they got so annoyed by it, they got a federal judge to issue a search warrant for 21 people's homes to, actually, 22 people.
[12:50.150 --> 12:55.670]  They, let me read from a quote here sent to me by a former Time Magazine reporter.
[12:56.650 --> 13:12.210]  Forensic experts hired by Northwest Airlines, seized the computers of a rank-and-file attendant who operates a website and electronic bulletin boards, and copied the hard drives from the computers of 21 individuals, including private email messages.
[13:12.770 --> 13:19.210]  If I could describe the look on Isaac's face right now, I'd win an Emmy for something, but it's just unbelievable.
[13:19.670 --> 13:21.470]  This is for calling in sick.
[13:21.730 --> 13:29.230]  They raid people's homes and confiscate their computers and take out the hard drives and download all, you know, copy all the information off their hard drives.
[13:29.470 --> 13:30.950]  For calling in sick.
[13:32.050 --> 13:36.670]  If they were looking around for, like, used tissues and things, I mean, that would be a little more reasonable, but...
[13:36.670 --> 13:37.250]  Here it is.
[13:37.390 --> 13:47.890]  The judge gave Northwest Airlines the right to seek evidence relating to the job action, including searching through the emails of 43 individuals, well beyond the number of people named in the original lawsuit.
[13:48.070 --> 13:48.530]  Unbelievable.
[13:48.790 --> 13:51.630]  This is so bad on so many levels.
[13:52.410 --> 13:55.990]  If this was a Fox show, it would be canceled by now because it's unbelievable.
[13:56.310 --> 13:56.790]  You know?
[13:56.970 --> 13:58.670]  The kinds of things we're seeing...
[13:58.670 --> 14:00.950]  I don't think Fox has ever canceled a show for being unbelievable.
[14:01.370 --> 14:02.850]  Well, I don't know, but...
[14:02.850 --> 14:07.650]  The home of when animals attack isn't, you know, known for its realism.
[14:08.130 --> 14:10.850]  Well, the point is, things are just out of control.
[14:10.850 --> 14:16.870]  I mean, people getting raided now for calling in sick, having their computers searched, you know...
[14:16.870 --> 14:18.810]  Well, the first part is calling in sick.
[14:18.970 --> 14:27.230]  Judges who are out of their mind, just granting these organizations, corporations, these powers to just, like, go in and raid people's individuality.
[14:27.230 --> 14:28.230]  Do we have the name of this judge?
[14:29.270 --> 14:30.950]  I don't, but I can find out.
[14:31.370 --> 14:32.330]  Actually, if I do, here it is.
[14:32.410 --> 14:32.650]  U.S.
[14:32.950 --> 14:33.990]  District Judge, Federal Judge, U.S.
[14:34.030 --> 14:46.210]  District Judge Donovan Frank in St. Paul, Minnesota, agreed and issued a temporary restraining order prohibiting teachers to local 2,000 as leaders and specific flight attendants from encouraging or participating in sick outs or other illegal actions.
[14:46.350 --> 14:58.530]  And then after that action happened, or alleged action that happened, and a whole bunch of people called in sick, the judge gave Northwest Airlines the right to seek evidence relating to the job action, including searching through the emails of 43 individuals,
[14:58.730 --> 15:00.990]  well beyond the number of people named in the original lawsuit.
[15:01.530 --> 15:07.150]  There's some problem going on with federal judges granting temporary injunctions and things like that.
[15:07.370 --> 15:11.870]  Well, I think we see a theme here, federal judges siding with wealthy corporations.
[15:12.050 --> 15:12.990]  You notice that, huh?
[15:12.990 --> 15:13.470]  Yes.
[15:13.830 --> 15:16.590]  It's nothing new, but we're seeing it happening more and more.
[15:16.990 --> 15:17.270]  Mm-hmm.
[15:17.890 --> 15:18.290]  Wow.
[15:20.470 --> 15:21.390]  It's just remarkable.
[15:21.650 --> 15:21.850]  Anyway.
[15:24.110 --> 15:25.450]  That's quite a story, Bernie.
[15:25.490 --> 15:26.110]  I can't believe that.
[15:26.130 --> 15:28.130]  Yeah, hopefully you'll be keeping us up to date on it.
[15:28.450 --> 15:29.950]  Yeah, I'll get some information next week.
[15:30.510 --> 15:32.270]  Boy, that's really something.
[15:32.350 --> 15:40.610]  Well, we've got another story here, which is a bit more on the light side, but some of you were on CNN.com on Monday.
[15:41.010 --> 15:44.850]  We're devoting a lot of time to CNN this week.
[15:45.150 --> 15:48.990]  You might have noticed a certain President Clinton who was on there.
[15:49.090 --> 15:51.130]  Yeah, he was supposed to be doing some, like, chat thing.
[15:51.230 --> 15:51.850]  Online interview.
[15:52.010 --> 15:53.270]  The first chat from the Oval Office.
[15:53.410 --> 15:56.630]  I don't know if it's the first chat from the Oval Office, but it was one of the first ones.
[15:56.710 --> 15:56.950]  I don't know.
[15:57.030 --> 15:58.370]  CNN was making a big deal out of it.
[15:58.450 --> 15:58.670]  Okay.
[15:58.850 --> 16:04.090]  And they had it live on their website, and I think it was an IRC client of some sort.
[16:04.150 --> 16:05.990]  It must have given them, like, a bunch of softball questions.
[16:06.090 --> 16:06.250]  Yeah.
[16:06.610 --> 16:07.810]  What is your vision for the future?
[16:07.910 --> 16:10.530]  Wolf Blitzer was, you know, what color is the sky, things like that.
[16:10.610 --> 16:11.890]  And they could easily get.
[16:12.250 --> 16:19.410]  But if you paid attention, you would have seen another certain President Clinton pop on there for a second.
[16:19.590 --> 16:19.870]  What?
[16:20.090 --> 16:27.870]  And, yeah, say some things that President Clinton, to most people, wouldn't be expected to say, such as, I'd like to see more porn on the Internet.
[16:28.430 --> 16:28.610]  What?
[16:29.170 --> 16:30.010]  Yeah, yeah.
[16:30.450 --> 16:31.310]  Apparently, somebody...
[16:31.310 --> 16:34.130]  Well, actually, I would expect him to say that, but, like, not actually say...
[16:34.130 --> 16:35.610]  Well, I would expect him to think it.
[16:35.830 --> 16:36.630]  Let's put it that way.
[16:36.630 --> 16:36.750]  Exactly.
[16:36.930 --> 16:38.130]  He's too smart to say that.
[16:38.150 --> 16:38.510]  Exactly.
[16:38.970 --> 16:46.050]  Well, this time, apparently, President Clinton said something like that, and a couple of other weird things.
[16:46.770 --> 16:56.330]  And, well, Isaac, if you look to your left, you'll see that person sitting next to you is the person who did it, the person who actually managed to infiltrate...
[16:56.330 --> 16:56.490]  That's not Bill Clinton.
[16:56.670 --> 16:57.510]  No, it's not Bill Clinton.
[16:57.550 --> 16:58.090]  You noticed that.
[16:58.970 --> 17:02.910]  Bill Clinton is down right now meeting with our friend Mudge in Washington, D.C.
[17:03.050 --> 17:03.770]  Yeah, I want to know about that.
[17:03.790 --> 17:04.590]  Which is a whole other story.
[17:05.070 --> 17:09.910]  But, no, this President Clinton, which is here in our studios right now, is the fake President Clinton.
[17:10.130 --> 17:11.090]  His real name is...
[17:11.090 --> 17:11.390]  An imposter.
[17:11.590 --> 17:12.490]  Christopher Petro.
[17:12.710 --> 17:13.610]  Did I pronounce your name right?
[17:13.950 --> 17:14.310]  Petro.
[17:14.510 --> 17:14.870]  Petro.
[17:14.990 --> 17:16.630]  Okay, for all the federal agents out there listening.
[17:18.030 --> 17:19.530]  And we do know they're listening.
[17:19.630 --> 17:20.150]  Oh, of course.
[17:20.330 --> 17:20.690]  I'm sure.
[17:22.930 --> 17:28.770]  What you did, according to Fox, Fox claims you hacked CNN.com's website.
[17:28.990 --> 17:32.190]  And in actuality, all you did was simply change your name.
[17:32.450 --> 17:34.870]  Now, why don't you tell us what happened, how that works?
[17:35.590 --> 17:35.830]  Right.
[17:36.750 --> 17:41.990]  Anybody experience with IRC has, I'm sure, been involved in drooping somebody's nick.
[17:42.390 --> 17:51.550]  And, you know, somebody gets logged off, their server gets split, and they grab somebody's nick and, you know, use the opportunity to make a couple of crazy statements under their nick.
[17:51.550 --> 17:53.630]  And that's essentially what I did.
[17:54.150 --> 17:56.910]  The server they were using wasn't really able to handle load.
[17:57.850 --> 18:02.110]  And whenever they'd get up to around 1,500, 1,700 users, the server would crash.
[18:02.790 --> 18:11.070]  And I was actually on there as a legitimate user watching the program, enjoying the softball questions and the cheesy answers.
[18:12.350 --> 18:16.150]  And, you know, about the third or fourth time the server crashed, I reconnected.
[18:16.150 --> 18:21.030]  Instead of using my normal nick, I went on as President Underscore Clinton.
[18:21.970 --> 18:38.250]  And when the client auto-rejoined the Pound Auditorium channel, I was granted voice by one of the operators in the channel, who's apparently rather scripty, and would auto-voice anything...
[18:38.250 --> 18:39.290]  What a great description.
[18:39.390 --> 18:39.990]  Yes, it is.
[18:40.270 --> 18:40.450]  Scripty.
[18:41.890 --> 18:47.090]  And would auto-voice anything that came in with President Underscore Clinton or Wolf Underscore Blitzer.
[18:47.610 --> 18:49.570]  But you were coming in from a different site, weren't you?
[18:49.570 --> 18:50.850]  I was coming in from a different site.
[18:51.190 --> 18:52.850]  You just had the nick of President Clinton.
[18:52.930 --> 18:53.030]  Yeah.
[18:53.190 --> 18:56.610]  The typist for President Clinton was coming in from 157 dot something.
[18:56.770 --> 18:57.630]  It was unrouted space.
[18:57.730 --> 18:59.090]  It wasn't advertised in any of the maze.
[18:59.610 --> 19:00.390]  None of the naps.
[19:00.570 --> 19:02.710]  The space he was coming from was completely unadvertised.
[19:02.850 --> 19:03.950]  Do you have the exact IP there?
[19:04.570 --> 19:05.550]  No, I don't have it here.
[19:06.550 --> 19:07.890]  It's in the log, I'm sure.
[19:08.210 --> 19:08.390]  Okay.
[19:08.870 --> 19:10.490]  Yeah, it's in the real log.
[19:10.590 --> 19:14.710]  We have that up on 2600.com, the log that you kept, as opposed to the log CNN published.
[19:14.750 --> 19:15.530]  I want to take a look at that.
[19:15.650 --> 19:15.790]  Yeah.
[19:16.490 --> 19:17.510]  So, okay, what happened next?
[19:18.510 --> 19:21.390]  After that, I was just kind of in disbelief for a little while.
[19:22.310 --> 19:26.290]  First, the product they're using is Webmaster's Conference Room.
[19:26.370 --> 19:37.150]  And it has a, kind of like Dolan, it has a nick serve that you can reserve specific nicknames and require anybody trying to use that nickname to provide a password or some other authentication.
[19:38.070 --> 19:42.070]  And they weren't using that for either Wolf or for Mr. Clinton.
[19:42.290 --> 19:45.650]  So they had a completely unprotected system for the President of the United States to chat.
[19:45.890 --> 19:46.330]  Completely.
[19:46.330 --> 19:48.630]  No, no problem with anybody using his nickname.
[19:48.870 --> 19:51.310]  No, I mean, what I do is completely unremarkable.
[19:51.410 --> 20:03.330]  Anybody, even, I mean, I was coming from a Unix machine, but anybody coming in from their web chat client, if they connected before his typist, could have put in President underscore Clinton and would have been voiced in the room.
[20:03.490 --> 20:03.690]  Uh-huh.
[20:05.290 --> 20:12.530]  And, I mean, through the whole program, people were doing, you know, they do Wolf underscore blitzer with two double, you know, double underscores.
[20:12.670 --> 20:15.110]  And they do, you know, Prez Clinton and stuff like this.
[20:15.190 --> 20:17.850]  And they were, you know, they were constantly kicking people out.
[20:17.910 --> 20:19.250]  Somebody used a pipe instead of an L.
[20:19.790 --> 20:22.950]  And, you know, they'd kick people off the server or force them to change their nick.
[20:23.730 --> 20:25.850]  And, I mean, that was going on through the whole program.
[20:26.570 --> 20:33.790]  And, actually, if you look at the log, when I came in, another person came in with Clinton with a pipe instead of an L right about at the same time.
[20:33.850 --> 20:40.050]  And they immediately kicked him off the server and banned that nick and then voiced me.
[20:44.450 --> 20:46.450]  So, I sat there for disbelief.
[20:46.710 --> 20:51.450]  I sat there in disbelief for about 10 seconds and then decided I should really say something.
[20:51.450 --> 20:53.070]  Yeah, might as well.
[20:53.710 --> 20:58.370]  I figured, you know, at that point I had about, you know, four or five seconds before they got noticed and, you know...
[20:58.370 --> 21:00.050]  Plus, the real President Clinton was locked out.
[21:00.150 --> 21:01.670]  He must have been trying to get in.
[21:01.690 --> 21:02.450]  Yeah, well, it was a typist, yeah.
[21:02.450 --> 21:02.970]  Passing or something.
[21:04.730 --> 21:07.230]  And I don't know why it took so long to connect.
[21:07.390 --> 21:09.950]  I mean, the server had been back up for about five, ten seconds when I got on.
[21:10.910 --> 21:11.930]  And if they...
[21:11.930 --> 21:15.310]  I guess they just weren't in the same room as the server admin, you know, let them know.
[21:15.690 --> 21:15.910]  Yeah.
[21:16.150 --> 21:19.750]  And so I sat there for about 10 seconds and I'm like, I should say something.
[21:19.950 --> 21:21.270]  And immediately it came to mind.
[21:21.270 --> 21:28.310]  I should say something topical about, you know, encryption export policy or, you know, something like that.
[21:28.390 --> 21:29.890]  And then I realized I probably didn't have time.
[21:30.550 --> 21:33.570]  So I just kind of spit out the first, you know...
[21:33.570 --> 21:36.130]  When you thought Bill Clinton, the first thing that came to your mind was...
[21:36.130 --> 21:36.570]  Exactly.
[21:36.850 --> 21:43.890]  Political satire, sexual indiscretion, said, personally, I'd like to see more porn on the Internet.
[21:45.070 --> 21:48.670]  And, you know, in retrospect, it probably wasn't the best way to use my 15 seconds of fame.
[21:49.010 --> 21:53.570]  It was in reply to a question on your thoughts on the Internet or Clinton's thoughts on the Internet.
[21:53.770 --> 21:53.930]  Right.
[21:54.070 --> 21:56.170]  Well, it was immediately following up a couple of questions about the Internet.
[21:56.290 --> 21:56.910]  So it was topical.
[21:57.090 --> 21:59.330]  It was, you know, more changing the subject in any way.
[21:59.550 --> 22:01.610]  It wasn't serious, I guess, but...
[22:01.610 --> 22:01.790]  Uh-huh.
[22:02.090 --> 22:19.050]  Well, now, according to Fox, and, you know, you got to make sure we note that, the president did not see the response, according to the White House, CNN sent an email statement to the White House, insisting that chat had not been hacked, but that someone had been able to bypass the electronic filters in place to prevent such disruptions.
[22:19.170 --> 22:26.830]  I like this quote that CNN gave to Fox, because, actually, this is in the email, according to Fox.
[22:27.050 --> 22:30.970]  We weren't hacked, and anybody who says we were doesn't know what they're talking about.
[22:31.950 --> 22:39.030]  But, nonetheless, Fox was on to quote several unnamed security experts who said that they must have been hacked.
[22:39.210 --> 22:39.370]  Yeah.
[22:39.670 --> 22:39.810]  Yeah.
[22:41.590 --> 22:45.930]  Basically, they say several experts said the disruption was almost certainly a hack.
[22:46.170 --> 22:52.990]  The experts said it would have been impossible for anyone to give a false answer for Clinton without deliberately bypassing chatroom security measures.
[22:53.150 --> 22:54.390]  Which don't exist.
[22:54.970 --> 22:57.510]  Which, well, I mean, I didn't bypass the security measures.
[22:57.730 --> 23:00.150]  Their bot auto-opt me, or, you know, auto-voiced me.
[23:00.150 --> 23:02.190]  So, I didn't have to bypass anything.
[23:02.190 --> 23:02.910]  They did it for me.
[23:04.130 --> 23:07.390]  They helped you along in your process to voicing.
[23:07.610 --> 23:12.650]  I just figured I'd go on, they'd kick me, it'd be funny, you know, and I'd be banned from chat, and, you know, I'd get over it.
[23:12.770 --> 23:14.630]  But you'd miss the rest of the whole thing.
[23:14.750 --> 23:15.110]  I mean, yeah.
[23:15.570 --> 23:15.810]  Yeah.
[23:15.990 --> 23:16.550]  It's unfortunate.
[23:17.110 --> 23:18.550]  Well, it could come on from, you know, another address.
[23:18.550 --> 23:21.770]  This is a quote that CNN gave to Fox News.
[23:21.910 --> 23:23.810]  It wasn't a hacker we were not hacked into.
[23:24.030 --> 23:26.450]  Have you ever participated in an online chat?
[23:26.790 --> 23:29.410]  Anyone can come in and register and participate on site.
[23:29.410 --> 23:31.950]  This person was registered and participating in the chat.
[23:32.070 --> 23:32.810]  He was a prankster.
[23:33.010 --> 23:34.610]  They give themselves a username.
[23:35.030 --> 23:38.030]  The president typed in President Clinton in brackets.
[23:38.410 --> 23:39.690]  Username was President Clinton.
[23:39.750 --> 23:41.590]  We have a filtering system that works quite well.
[23:41.790 --> 23:44.890]  There was a 20-second glitch, and this is when the person came in and typed.
[23:45.030 --> 23:46.110]  We booted the person out.
[23:46.630 --> 23:49.570]  So, I mean, that's a pretty accurate summation, isn't it?
[23:49.570 --> 24:04.390]  Yeah, no, I mean, CNN's completely correct, and I actually tried to contact CNN and offer to, you know, issue a statement agreeing with them so they could defend themselves against Fox, who seems anxious to point out the egg on CNN's face.
[24:04.550 --> 24:07.470]  Well, they're jumping on this as if it's related to the things of last week.
[24:07.630 --> 24:14.570]  Well, yeah, I like how right after they talk about this, they continue talking about the, you know, the just ridiculous attacks.
[24:14.570 --> 24:24.770]  Well, the exact quote, the Incident Monday was the latest in a recent wave of cyber vandalism that has already targeted CNN.com once before, as well as major commercial sites such as eBay, Amazon, and Yahoo.
[24:25.770 --> 24:29.710]  As if the two are anything remotely related, you know, you changed your nickname.
[24:30.270 --> 24:33.250]  Yeah, I mean, it doesn't resemble it in form and purpose and method.
[24:33.930 --> 24:38.690]  I mean, there's no resemblance between the two kinds of attacks, if you even wanted to call it that.
[24:38.690 --> 24:44.610]  And the very fact that you're here now talking about it, I mean, I don't think the people that, you know, did what happened last week have anything to be proud of.
[24:44.690 --> 24:46.990]  They wouldn't go out and advertise it to anybody.
[24:47.710 --> 24:50.590]  But this is something I would be proud of to say I did, you know.
[24:50.750 --> 24:51.350]  It's a good thing.
[24:51.350 --> 24:52.850]  Yeah, I mean, it was a joke.
[24:53.010 --> 24:55.950]  This kind of thing happens all the time on that same server, even.
[24:56.470 --> 25:04.150]  I mean, if you watch any of the interviews, I mean, I was on for about half an hour again earlier today before they banned my other block of addresses.
[25:05.270 --> 25:11.410]  And watching one with Miles O'Brien talking about the space stuff, which was actually reasonably interesting until I got banned.
[25:13.010 --> 25:14.730]  And, I mean, there were people going on.
[25:14.810 --> 25:15.930]  It was all kinds of crazy nicks.
[25:15.970 --> 25:22.670]  And there were still people doing, you know, Prez underscore Clinton and spelling with the Z and stuff like that that were getting kicked out a lot.
[25:23.150 --> 25:33.970]  And near as I can tell, right, I actually, somebody forwarded me an email with some little blurbs out of some conversations on there today that I added to the files on my site about this.
[25:35.590 --> 25:39.190]  And somebody was actually spelling my nick with asterisks in place of the vowels.
[25:39.190 --> 25:46.270]  So, near as I can tell, my real nick may actually be an auto-ban word on chat.cnn.com now.
[25:46.430 --> 25:47.330]  Persona non grata.
[25:48.090 --> 25:48.910]  That is something.
[25:49.030 --> 25:54.550]  Well, the story went on to be reported in ABC News, the headline, Clinton Impostor, I Want Porn.
[25:55.250 --> 25:55.690]  Yahoo.
[25:56.770 --> 25:57.770]  Actually, it was Reuters.
[25:57.990 --> 25:58.050]  I was kidding.
[25:58.270 --> 26:01.690]  Reuters reports it as Clinton online interview is a heckler's field day.
[26:03.170 --> 26:06.710]  And the funny thing is, CNN had absolutely no mention of it.
[26:06.710 --> 26:09.790]  They completely wiped the story out as if it never existed.
[26:09.930 --> 26:11.650]  And that's the thing I have to fault them for.
[26:11.750 --> 26:13.010]  I mean, this was definitely a story.
[26:13.170 --> 26:13.870]  It's something to acknowledge.
[26:13.890 --> 26:15.870]  But they took it out of the transcript.
[26:15.910 --> 26:16.910]  It's not in there at all.
[26:17.130 --> 26:22.030]  And any reporting of the story just does not mention it, even though every other news agency was mentioning it.
[26:22.550 --> 26:25.630]  And the Reuters report was actually reasonably responsible.
[26:25.630 --> 26:29.850]  And I talked to the reporter about that today and talked to him for a while.
[26:29.850 --> 26:33.010]  And he asked me what I thought about the attacks over the last couple of weeks.
[26:33.150 --> 26:34.990]  And it was a reasonably good conversation.
[26:34.990 --> 26:38.030]  So he may be issuing something following up on that.
[26:38.110 --> 26:46.110]  But he didn't, you know, fall into this trap of blaming it on hackers or claiming it was a hack or vandalism or anything like that.
[26:46.170 --> 26:47.710]  So I was reasonably happy with that.
[26:48.510 --> 26:49.690]  Bernie, what do you think about all this?
[26:50.430 --> 26:52.470]  At least they didn't call you a cyber terrorist.
[26:52.470 --> 26:54.550]  No, just a cyber vandal.
[26:54.990 --> 26:56.750]  So I guess it's slightly better.
[26:57.390 --> 27:02.750]  The term terror has been creatively used a lot lately.
[27:03.350 --> 27:04.210]  Certainly true.
[27:05.250 --> 27:07.850]  Today there was a meeting down at the White House.
[27:07.970 --> 27:18.770]  Today's White House High Tech Summit, some of the biggest companies in high technology in the online world, proposed an effort similar to the big push to eliminate Y2K glitches to improve computer and Internet security.
[27:18.770 --> 27:29.030]  The Voluntary Industry-Led Coalition promotes, quote, the systematic and protected coordination of information, unquote, on cyber attacks and how to respond to them.
[27:29.130 --> 27:38.970]  Yeah, when I first heard about this, I got a little nervous because I figured, oh no, it's a big group of industry bigwigs who's going to ask Clinton to start pushing all kinds of legislation.
[27:39.490 --> 27:41.470]  And then I heard somebody was going to be there.
[27:41.750 --> 27:42.130]  Uh-huh.
[27:42.250 --> 27:43.090]  Who is that someone?
[27:43.210 --> 27:44.050]  That someone is Mudge.
[27:44.150 --> 27:44.710]  That someone is Mudge.
[27:44.710 --> 27:45.550]  From the loft.
[27:45.550 --> 27:48.170]  That helped me through this.
[27:48.250 --> 27:51.530]  I just hope he doesn't go around saying, hey, we can take down the net in 30 minutes again.
[27:51.610 --> 27:55.030]  Because that's not a good idea to say things like that to people like Congress.
[27:55.430 --> 27:57.050]  Because they tend to flip out.
[27:57.810 --> 28:01.730]  Well, at least he's there to offer some degree of intelligence and moderation.
[28:01.990 --> 28:02.270]  Yeah.
[28:02.470 --> 28:02.850]  Hopefully.
[28:03.050 --> 28:04.830]  Hopefully, you know, they'll listen.
[28:05.490 --> 28:07.670]  Hopefully, there'll be an opportunity for him to actually say something.
[28:08.010 --> 28:09.310]  That'd be very nice.
[28:09.310 --> 28:14.570]  Despite widespread concerns over a series of hacker attacks, chalk up another one for CNN.
[28:15.270 --> 28:16.690]  Actually, no, this is the Washington Post.
[28:17.130 --> 28:18.850]  Wait, is the Washington Post connected to CNN?
[28:19.030 --> 28:19.650]  I think they...
[28:19.650 --> 28:22.390]  Yeah, there's a bunch of these, like, media-slash-paper outlets.
[28:22.390 --> 28:23.690]  It's either MSNBC or...
[28:23.690 --> 28:24.230]  I don't even know.
[28:24.270 --> 28:25.190]  I don't pay attention.
[28:25.690 --> 28:30.470]  But despite the widespread concern over the hackers, President Clinton urged Americans not to overreact.
[28:30.490 --> 28:35.270]  It's a source of concern, but I don't think we should leave here with this vast sense of insecurity, he said.
[28:35.270 --> 28:40.210]  He said, we ought to leave here with a sense of confidence that this is a challenge that was entirely predictable.
[28:40.410 --> 28:42.730]  It's part of the price of the success of the Internet.
[28:43.590 --> 28:45.950]  Actually, this has been predicted for many years.
[28:46.190 --> 28:46.390]  Yeah.
[28:46.550 --> 28:47.930]  Well, that actually almost makes sense, what he said.
[28:48.630 --> 28:58.090]  The meeting focused on Internet vulnerabilities, which have been underscored in recent weeks by the denial-of-service attacks on a series of prominent websites and other hacking incidents.
[28:59.790 --> 29:03.290]  Well, hopefully, we'll get a transcript of that conversation.
[29:04.550 --> 29:07.430]  Okay, well, anything on any other points of business, Bernie?
[29:08.310 --> 29:08.890]  Nothing here.
[29:09.150 --> 29:10.210]  Okay, so let's take some phone calls.
[29:10.250 --> 29:11.790]  212-209-2900.
[29:12.450 --> 29:19.730]  Again, next week, we're going to try and have Kevin back, and he'll be able, hopefully, to take some phone calls then himself, and we can actually have some interaction.
[29:19.930 --> 29:23.410]  There's an article, in fact, this week's Time magazine that Kevin penned.
[29:23.850 --> 29:24.250]  That's right.
[29:24.310 --> 29:25.790]  Kevin actually wrote a piece for them.
[29:25.950 --> 29:26.270]  Cool.
[29:26.770 --> 29:29.830]  Concerning the whole denial-of-service thing and all that.
[29:29.830 --> 29:33.670]  He was on Fox on Sunday, I believe.
[29:34.050 --> 29:34.950]  He's been all over the place.
[29:35.070 --> 29:39.050]  So if you just turn on the media, you'll probably see Kevin at some point, which is great.
[29:39.130 --> 29:44.850]  It's good to see him actually speaking out on this kind of thing and giving some expert advice or opinions.
[29:45.790 --> 29:47.090]  212-209-2900.
[29:47.290 --> 29:49.130]  Let's take some phone calls.
[29:49.430 --> 29:49.970]  Good evening.
[29:50.070 --> 29:50.530]  You're on the air.
[29:51.490 --> 29:51.850]  Hello.
[29:54.330 --> 29:55.930]  Oh, that was an intelligent call.
[29:56.130 --> 29:57.870]  Okay, let's go over here.
[29:57.970 --> 29:58.330]  Good evening.
[29:58.450 --> 29:59.030]  You're on the air.
[29:59.950 --> 30:00.750]  Speak up, please.
[30:01.410 --> 30:01.810]  Yeah.
[30:02.550 --> 30:02.950]  Hello?
[30:03.170 --> 30:03.650]  Yes, go ahead.
[30:04.250 --> 30:05.310]  Yeah, I was curious.
[30:05.310 --> 30:07.330]  Whatever happened to whoownswhat.net?
[30:07.730 --> 30:08.550]  Ah, okay.
[30:08.630 --> 30:09.530]  Well, I'm glad you asked that.
[30:09.910 --> 30:13.350]  That was actually a product of over-ambitiousness on our part.
[30:13.910 --> 30:19.870]  We'd like to have a site where basically you would have any product in the world.
[30:19.870 --> 30:22.610]  You could probably go through the UPC code or something like that.
[30:23.210 --> 30:32.170]  You would enter the name of the product or the UPC code or whatever it is, and the computer would read back to you who owns the controlling interest of that product.
[30:32.170 --> 30:37.930]  Like, you know, if a cigarette company owns your favorite brand of dog food, you'd be able to find that out.
[30:38.030 --> 30:40.850]  You'd be able to type in a radio station, find out who owns it, things like that.
[30:40.850 --> 30:47.930]  The thing is, we'd love to be able to do this, but we've been completely strained with all the projects over the last year.
[30:48.010 --> 30:57.590]  So if there are people out there who want to help work on this project, that have time, that have access to, you know, computers and things like that, contact us, OTH at 2200.com.
[30:57.730 --> 31:00.190]  We still have the site, and we still want to do this.
[31:00.210 --> 31:03.470]  It's just we're so completely bowled over with things to do.
[31:03.470 --> 31:04.470]  Yeah, it seems like a big thing.
[31:04.630 --> 31:06.850]  So are you interested in helping out?
[31:08.530 --> 31:09.510]  I don't know, maybe.
[31:09.510 --> 31:19.710]  Okay, well, that fright, that panic in his voice, that's what you get when people, you know, realize how much work is involved.
[31:19.910 --> 31:21.050]  It really is.
[31:21.230 --> 31:21.830]  It sounds like a lot.
[31:21.870 --> 31:26.010]  We've got the website going, we've got a conference to organize, a magazine to put out, and a film we're trying to make.
[31:26.790 --> 31:28.750]  Well, we also have a lawsuit to deal with.
[31:28.750 --> 31:32.310]  A lawsuit to deal with, and accusations by the media all over the place.
[31:32.450 --> 31:34.190]  So it's, you know, it keeps us busy.
[31:34.290 --> 31:34.570]  A little busy.
[31:35.210 --> 31:36.290]  212-209-2900.
[31:36.450 --> 31:37.030]  I'll try and light a hand up.
[31:37.590 --> 31:37.890]  Will you?
[31:38.030 --> 31:38.170]  Okay.
[31:38.170 --> 31:38.290]  Thank you.
[31:38.490 --> 31:39.130]  That's good to know.
[31:39.190 --> 31:39.410]  Good evening.
[31:39.530 --> 31:39.850]  You're on the air.
[31:41.610 --> 31:42.270]  Speak up, please.
[31:42.750 --> 31:42.930]  Hi.
[31:42.990 --> 31:45.790]  I'd like to say some things about the internet that I've noticed.
[31:46.230 --> 31:47.390]  You've noticed the internet, huh?
[31:47.510 --> 31:48.750]  Who told you about the internet?
[31:50.150 --> 31:52.350]  I think that the internet is great.
[31:52.530 --> 32:07.190]  However, I've noticed lots of the internet, like you said, is becoming a big, multi-corporate conglomerate, where you have things like, all right, for example, this site doesn't exist.
[32:07.430 --> 32:08.610]  Advice.com.
[32:08.750 --> 32:08.990]  Yeah.
[32:09.170 --> 32:11.730]  Free advice on whatever the subject may be.
[32:11.730 --> 32:13.850]  You go to the website, it's a big scam.
[32:14.070 --> 32:18.570]  Like, the internet, these sites that say that it's free, it's not really free.
[32:18.670 --> 32:25.290]  When you go to these sites, at some point, they're going to ask you for your credit card number to pay for something.
[32:26.230 --> 32:44.690]  And also, speaking of that, a lot of these places, you know, you enter your credit card number, you can get, you know, it's open to a lot of fraud, you know, like, you can get credit card fraud, because, you know, anybody could get, you know, credit card information and stuff.
[32:45.250 --> 32:46.570]  What do you think of that, Bernie?
[32:47.650 --> 32:48.990]  I'm trying to stop laughing.
[32:51.410 --> 32:56.070]  Well, I could try and, like, extract something reasonable out of that short blurb.
[32:56.630 --> 32:57.210]  We'll make it quick.
[32:57.530 --> 32:59.330]  All right, just like, all right, Bernie, what do you think of that?
[32:59.530 --> 33:06.150]  When you call at the radio station, it says, join the date line, call 1-800-whatever, and it's free to use.
[33:06.310 --> 33:07.510]  But it's not free to use.
[33:07.510 --> 33:10.330]  You call, you leave a message, you leave your personal information.
[33:10.730 --> 33:15.410]  When you have a message, they say, sorry, you've got to pay for this service.
[33:15.410 --> 33:18.990]  You've got to call a 900 number, or a 540, or a pay line.
[33:19.050 --> 33:21.030]  Rebel, date lines are not the way to go.
[33:21.190 --> 33:25.210]  I can give you some advice on places you can go to meet similar...
[33:25.210 --> 33:25.750]  Actually...
[33:25.750 --> 33:26.490]  No, no, I mean...
[33:27.570 --> 33:28.430]  Not that I think of it.
[33:28.530 --> 33:29.130]  Okay, never mind.
[33:29.270 --> 33:30.410]  It's not that I want to meet somebody.
[33:30.530 --> 33:33.930]  No, it's just the fact that the thing is that they say that it's free.
[33:35.490 --> 33:47.450]  However, when they say, lure you into this thing, and then they say it's free, but then when you want to, like at the voicemail thing, you leave a message, and then to get your message, they say, well, you've got to pay for it, just like the internet sites.
[33:47.670 --> 33:58.870]  You know, they say it's free on the radio and the advertising, but when you go to the site, and when you actually ask for the information, they're going to ask for some sort of payment, or they'll send you junk email or something like that.
[34:00.350 --> 34:07.430]  Well, I mean, I think the best thing to do is just not use a site like that and find a site that, you know, that doesn't charge.
[34:07.550 --> 34:07.950]  It gives you that.
[34:08.050 --> 34:10.330]  Or, you know, run a site that doesn't charge.
[34:10.350 --> 34:10.730]  I don't know.
[34:10.730 --> 34:13.110]  So, it's what the market will bear, right?
[34:13.110 --> 34:15.610]  We could get two things from Funtime with Rebel today.
[34:15.810 --> 34:16.190]  What's that?
[34:16.310 --> 34:18.190]  The first one is nothing is ever free.
[34:18.590 --> 34:27.890]  And the second is, I tend to think he's wrong that the internet is becoming, you know, privatized and corporatized, because all the stuff that was there previously is still there.
[34:27.890 --> 34:29.130]  You can still get to it.
[34:29.190 --> 34:32.550]  There's no change, except it's expanded and encompassed a lot of these companies.
[34:32.830 --> 34:35.290]  And it's also overshadowed by a lot of these companies.
[34:35.490 --> 34:36.250]  How is it overshadowed?
[34:36.490 --> 34:38.870]  Because you can't find it because of all the crap out there.
[34:38.950 --> 34:39.670]  What do you mean you can't find it?
[34:39.670 --> 34:40.130]  You can't...
[34:40.130 --> 34:40.630]  Type in the address.
[34:40.850 --> 34:41.330]  Well, yeah.
[34:41.330 --> 34:42.170]  You use a search engine.
[34:42.250 --> 34:44.610]  I mean, most of the mail I get these days is spam.
[34:44.630 --> 34:46.230]  It's hard to find legitimate mail.
[34:46.390 --> 34:48.650]  You know, it's hard to find the actual communications.
[34:48.730 --> 34:49.150]  Well, that's what it's called.
[34:49.150 --> 34:52.250]  Because of all the commercial interests that have taken over and are sending you things about...
[34:52.250 --> 35:01.810]  But it's not as though these, the things, the wholesome things that people enjoy previous to the whole corporatization are, were pushed out of the way by the corporate powers.
[35:02.030 --> 35:08.530]  It's one of the new, one of the great things about the internet is that there's not a limited amount of space.
[35:08.650 --> 35:10.530]  You can just keep expanding.
[35:11.670 --> 35:15.430]  There's no need to push people off of turf because everyone's on an equal footing.
[35:15.690 --> 35:16.630]  Well, I'm not going to...
[35:16.630 --> 35:17.250]  I'm really stretching.
[35:17.390 --> 35:18.270]  I'm trying to get something out of this.
[35:18.270 --> 35:20.410]  I'm not going to get into this argument here about equal footing.
[35:20.510 --> 35:22.930]  We spent a number of minutes with this guy and I had to get something out of it.
[35:22.930 --> 35:24.430]  I want to give the callers a chance.
[35:24.530 --> 35:26.150]  Although, I do know there's...
[35:26.150 --> 35:28.450]  Somebody told me this and I've never encountered this error.
[35:28.550 --> 35:30.250]  But you know the 404 errors on the web.
[35:30.470 --> 35:32.310]  You ever encounter a 405 error?
[35:34.170 --> 35:35.310]  On an actual site?
[35:35.830 --> 35:36.190]  405...
[35:36.190 --> 35:37.290]  I don't believe so, but...
[35:37.290 --> 35:37.850]  I think it's 405.
[35:37.870 --> 35:40.650]  It's either 405 or 403, but it says requires payment.
[35:40.910 --> 35:41.750]  Yeah, there's a whole list of them.
[35:41.810 --> 35:42.730]  Yeah, I didn't know about that one.
[35:42.750 --> 35:43.230]  You look at the RFC.
[35:43.610 --> 35:45.470]  That's a sign of something to come, I think.
[35:45.750 --> 35:46.110]  Well, thanks.
[35:46.870 --> 35:47.590]  Bernie, you still there?
[35:47.870 --> 35:48.470]  I'm here.
[35:48.590 --> 35:49.090]  You finished laughing?
[35:50.370 --> 35:52.810]  I've finally stopped being sore, yeah.
[35:53.750 --> 35:55.590]  Let's go back to the phones here.
[35:55.730 --> 35:56.050]  Good evening.
[35:56.170 --> 35:56.730]  You're on Off the Hook.
[35:57.530 --> 35:57.890]  Hello.
[35:58.290 --> 35:58.630]  Go ahead.
[35:59.070 --> 35:59.490]  Yeah, hi.
[35:59.650 --> 36:00.310]  You guys rock.
[36:00.570 --> 36:01.050]  Well, thanks.
[36:01.790 --> 36:05.830]  The ANI number for the New York metro region is 958-pound.
[36:06.610 --> 36:07.610]  Are you guys familiar with that?
[36:07.830 --> 36:15.070]  Well, actually, it's been 958 for ages, but what's happened in some places, I don't know about the pound, but in some places it's 9580 now.
[36:15.930 --> 36:20.350]  And if you dial 9581, it disconnects your phone line for a few minutes.
[36:20.550 --> 36:20.890]  Uh-oh.
[36:21.010 --> 36:22.650]  I didn't realize that one.
[36:22.790 --> 36:28.870]  But I wanted to know, is there any number that you can call, any code that you can call that rings back the phone that you're at?
[36:29.430 --> 36:33.050]  Uh, in, uh, in New York, I think it's, is that where you are in New York?
[36:33.170 --> 36:33.330]  Yeah.
[36:33.670 --> 36:38.590]  Uh, I think it's 660 plus either the last four digits or the last seven digits of your phone number.
[36:39.090 --> 36:40.790]  Uh, well, it depends where you are, I think.
[36:40.890 --> 36:41.050]  Yeah, it does.
[36:41.150 --> 36:42.410]  I mean, sometimes it's four, sometimes it's seven.
[36:42.990 --> 36:45.010]  Uh, in fact, I think sometimes it's even all ten.
[36:45.430 --> 36:45.630]  Yeah.
[36:45.830 --> 36:51.050]  Uh, and what you do is you get a special tone, which usually sounds like a busy signal that doesn't, you know, have a pause.
[36:51.050 --> 36:51.270]  Yeah.
[36:51.830 --> 36:55.490]  And, uh, what you do is you flash the receiver and hang up again, and then it should ring back.
[36:55.930 --> 36:56.250]  Awesome.
[36:56.530 --> 36:58.670]  It works different ways, different places, different exchanges.
[36:59.470 --> 36:59.790]  Okay?
[36:59.930 --> 37:01.010]  I'm going to have a lot of fun with that.
[37:01.090 --> 37:01.470]  Thanks, guys.
[37:01.670 --> 37:01.910]  Thanks.
[37:02.450 --> 37:03.210]  It's classic stuff.
[37:03.410 --> 37:05.050]  212-209-2900.
[37:05.250 --> 37:05.710]  Good evening.
[37:05.810 --> 37:06.170]  You're on the air.
[37:08.270 --> 37:08.830]  Okay, folks.
[37:08.930 --> 37:09.430]  Here's the rule.
[37:09.550 --> 37:11.470]  You know, when I say you're on the air, you've got to start talking.
[37:11.470 --> 37:15.910]  If you, if you pause and try to calculate what I'm saying, you know, we're wasting a lot of time.
[37:16.030 --> 37:16.310]  Good evening.
[37:16.610 --> 37:17.310]  You're on the air.
[37:17.790 --> 37:18.110]  Hello.
[37:18.370 --> 37:18.550]  Hi.
[37:21.070 --> 37:26.890]  I'm totally technologically illiterate, but I do know about phones a little bit.
[37:27.430 --> 37:27.870]  Okay.
[37:28.010 --> 37:30.170]  Well, obviously, you know enough to dial us, so that's good enough.
[37:30.430 --> 37:31.170]  So, I have a question.
[37:31.370 --> 37:36.750]  In the Village Voice recently, I think it was last week, they had an ad for something called Z-Line.
[37:37.410 --> 37:38.170]  Z-Line?
[37:38.410 --> 37:38.850]  Yeah.
[37:38.970 --> 37:43.850]  Some kind of new phone company where you get, I, it's not for me, it's for a friend of mine.
[37:44.350 --> 37:51.030]  They say you can get, um, from Bell Atlantic, um, you know, local, local calls.
[37:51.050 --> 38:01.510]  And then they list all this stuff you can get from Z-Line, uh, 203 minutes of long distance, um, call waiting, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, for $49.99 a month.
[38:01.670 --> 38:02.710]  Is that probably unlikely?
[38:03.370 --> 38:06.570]  Uh, well, they can offer you these things, but you have to, you have to look for the catches.
[38:06.710 --> 38:10.430]  You have to look at, you have to look at what Bell Atlantic offers you now for, for nothing.
[38:10.430 --> 38:14.110]  Like, for instance, a local call is, is calling a phone in your house.
[38:14.250 --> 38:14.370]  Right.
[38:14.610 --> 38:14.850]  All right.
[38:14.910 --> 38:17.630]  Right now, that probably doesn't cost you anything on Bell Atlantic.
[38:17.830 --> 38:21.090]  Now, will they offer you the same thing or will they charge you 10 cents a minute?
[38:21.290 --> 38:22.550]  You know, it's possible they will.
[38:22.910 --> 38:25.710]  You have to look for those little possible exceptions to their rule.
[38:25.810 --> 38:28.650]  Yeah, they may give you 200 minutes of long distance for, for, for free.
[38:28.810 --> 38:29.050]  Right.
[38:29.050 --> 38:31.450]  But, uh, you know, what, won't they give you?
[38:31.690 --> 38:36.110]  Yeah, that's what I figured, because of course, you know, but I thought you all would know about them.
[38:36.490 --> 38:37.850]  I'd say, well, you know, give it a try.
[38:37.990 --> 38:38.770]  You might find something good.
[38:38.850 --> 38:41.270]  I'm not saying don't, don't check them out, but, uh, you know.
[38:41.510 --> 38:41.830]  Yeah.
[38:42.010 --> 38:42.150]  It's funny.
[38:42.270 --> 38:45.350]  I don't even have a computer or anything, but I always listen to you all.
[38:45.650 --> 38:46.230]  Well, you know.
[38:46.490 --> 38:49.170]  I'm probably old enough to be your mother, but I think you're funny.
[38:49.650 --> 38:51.570]  Well, thanks, thanks, uh, thanks for calling.
[38:51.670 --> 38:52.170]  Thanks for sharing.
[38:52.730 --> 38:53.050]  All right.
[38:53.110 --> 38:53.210]  Bye-bye.
[38:53.490 --> 38:54.670]  Well, we rock and we're funny.
[38:54.670 --> 38:57.490]  Well, a lot of people without computers are interested in technology.
[38:57.490 --> 39:03.450]  And that's, that's what a lot of people on the net seem to forget, is that there are so many more people out there that don't have access that are fascinated by all this.
[39:03.530 --> 39:03.810]  Right, Bernie?
[39:04.410 --> 39:04.690]  Yes.
[39:04.730 --> 39:07.650]  And if she thinks we're funny, she hasn't even seen what we look like yet.
[39:07.650 --> 39:07.670]  All right.
[39:07.670 --> 39:08.770]  Let's not get into that, all right?
[39:09.390 --> 39:10.610]  That's humorous in and of itself.
[39:11.490 --> 39:13.150]  Yeah, we have one lawsuit to deal with, all right?
[39:13.210 --> 39:14.170]  Actually, we have two to deal with.
[39:14.250 --> 39:14.490]  Two to deal with?
[39:14.510 --> 39:17.170]  Maybe three, but we'll, we'll get to that later.
[39:17.290 --> 39:18.170]  They'll just keep stacking up.
[39:18.170 --> 39:20.490]  There have been, there have been more cease and desist letters sent out.
[39:20.590 --> 39:28.510]  We're not going to devote much time to it this week because, you know, we devoted as much time to it in prior weeks, but it's, it's something that's on the horizon and, and they're just...
[39:28.510 --> 39:29.070]  What on the horizon?
[39:29.110 --> 39:29.450]  It's here.
[39:29.570 --> 39:37.790]  It's here, but I'm saying we'll be talking about it more on the horizon because there's a whole lot more as far as, you know, letters and threats and, and things like that.
[39:37.910 --> 39:39.350]  And from all...
[39:39.350 --> 39:42.690]  How about the, how about the guy that got fired for, did you read that?
[39:43.270 --> 39:45.070]  Actually, that's one of the things you want to tell us about that?
[39:45.390 --> 39:47.490]  Because I, I just heard about that on the way out, actually.
[39:47.970 --> 40:08.350]  I don't have it all in front of me, but from how I read it, a, I think it was a student or graduate student in university who has a, has a job there linked to DCSS code and the head of that department fired him from his university job for doing that.
[40:09.210 --> 40:24.210]  And apparently the MPAA sent a, sent a letter to, to the, the CTO, chief technology officer of that part of the university and sort of a quasi-corporate university division, whatever.
[40:24.610 --> 40:32.950]  So, so the guy got fired for, for linking to DCSS code and he had to go through all this appeals process, which isn't really clear and so forth.
[40:32.950 --> 40:35.210]  And he, you know, didn't do anything wrong.
[40:35.370 --> 40:55.810]  Apparently what the CTO is afraid of is, you know, the liability, even though they were not lamed, named in the, in the injunction, the fact that, that distributing this so-called circumvention tool, DCSS, is a crime under the DCMA or DMCA.
[40:56.290 --> 41:03.070]  So, you know, people are going to just look at, just to play it safe and, and not have anything to do with this and fire people who do.
[41:03.270 --> 41:05.110]  And it's, we're going to see some more of this, I'm afraid.
[41:05.230 --> 41:06.470]  We are going to see a lot more of this.
[41:06.470 --> 41:09.910]  And the thing is, you know, when we stand up to it, we're standing up to it on our own name.
[41:10.190 --> 41:16.550]  There's nobody over us saying that, you know, they, they, they don't want to take the risk because we're the ones taking the risk here.
[41:17.250 --> 41:33.590]  But for a lot of students, for a lot of employees of various companies, they will be disciplined by the people that think there is some kind of a risk and that don't want to, you know, don't want to, I don't know, feel the wrath of, of, of the powers like MPAA.
[41:34.170 --> 41:43.730]  Uh, so, uh, that's why more people are, of course, uh, encouraged to, uh, to link to the code to set the, uh, it's not shut down completely.
[41:43.730 --> 41:50.010]  So that freedom of speech prevails and, uh, people actually get to learn something about how technology works.
[41:50.110 --> 41:51.390]  It's, it's the most amazing thing.
[41:51.470 --> 42:08.010]  If you're just landing from the space shuttle and you've heard nothing about this, basically what happened was last month we, uh, we were sued by the MPAA, uh, for, uh, having the code on our site that basically, uh, defeats the encryption, uh, that DVDs use.
[42:08.070 --> 42:11.570]  It's not, it's not something that's used for copying DVDs.
[42:11.690 --> 42:12.730]  That's not what it's meant for.
[42:12.870 --> 42:19.790]  It's meant to allow you to play a DVD on a Linux machine, for instance, and be able to design other players as well.
[42:19.790 --> 42:35.690]  However, what the MPAA and what all the major motion picture organizations want is control not only of the things that are on the DVD, but of all the players of every, imagine if every CD player had to be licensed by, you know, a particular company, otherwise it wouldn't work.
[42:35.910 --> 42:37.290]  That's basically what we're talking about here.
[42:37.430 --> 42:42.890]  Also, uh, they want to be able to tell you where you can play your DVDs and where you can't play your DVDs.
[42:42.930 --> 42:48.010]  It's all about access control, which is a fairly new, uh, kind of, uh, concept for most of us.
[42:48.010 --> 42:51.350]  And they, they expect people to just swallow this and, and accept it.
[42:51.710 --> 43:00.290]  What a lot of, what a lot of people don't seem to realize is the, is the, the fair use standards that have existed for, for years and years on the use of copyrighted material.
[43:00.510 --> 43:07.810]  There's been fair use rules and what's, what you could use, how you can use copyrighted materials fairly for personal use, that sort of thing.
[43:07.810 --> 43:24.930]  Uh, these, these, these control that this digital millennium copyright act gives, uh, organizations like the Motion Picture Association of America is, is basically preventing people from being able to access their previous fair use rights.
[43:25.390 --> 43:37.600]  And it's, it's a shame because more and more material that we, we consume, um, that's of, uh, that we, virtually everything we hear, see on a screen, so forth, is going to be digital very soon.
[43:37.660 --> 43:37.920]  That's right.
[43:38.020 --> 43:44.500]  And all the fair use that we've been granted up until now, it's going to be null and void because of this.
[43:45.880 --> 43:46.280]  Yeah.
[43:46.360 --> 43:47.760]  It's a, it's a very frightening prospect.
[43:47.760 --> 43:50.440]  And that's why we feel it's very important to fight this.
[43:50.520 --> 43:54.620]  And hopefully, uh, we'll have a lot of people standing by our sides when this does happen.
[43:54.860 --> 43:55.520]  It's, it's scary.
[43:55.680 --> 44:07.660]  It really is because, you know, people are talking about, uh, crippling fines, uh, people being put out of business, even going to prison, and you can't back down because if you do back down, the prospects will be even worse.
[44:08.140 --> 44:16.160]  We'll all be living in, uh, this, this 1984 type of, uh, society where your every move is, is accountable and analyzed.
[44:16.620 --> 44:22.400]  Isn't the Patent and Trademark Office still accepting, uh, uh, comments on the implementation?
[44:22.400 --> 44:23.380]  That's very important.
[44:23.760 --> 44:27.200]  Uh, there, there are two, uh, basic parts of DMCA.
[44:27.360 --> 44:30.840]  The first part is, um, actually they're numbered in reverse.
[44:31.100 --> 44:33.260]  This is part two that we're being charged under.
[44:33.400 --> 44:34.900]  Part one has not yet gone into effect.
[44:35.260 --> 44:37.200]  I don't know how they, they, they do these kinds of things.
[44:37.500 --> 44:45.940]  But, uh, part two is the public dissemination of information on how to bypass, uh, technology in various ways.
[44:46.160 --> 44:49.120]  Uh, part one is actually doing it.
[44:49.240 --> 44:55.360]  Part one is actually sitting at your house and figuring out how something works that you're not supposed to figure out that becomes a crime.
[44:55.840 --> 44:58.520]  Uh, they are accepting comments on this.
[44:58.620 --> 45:02.120]  You can find all the information on our website, www.2600.com.
[45:02.240 --> 45:03.480]  Just go down to the right hand side.
[45:03.480 --> 45:05.240]  You'll see a story about this.
[45:05.380 --> 45:07.400]  It links to exactly how you can submit your comments.
[45:07.580 --> 45:10.580]  The deadline is Thursday, two days, two days from now.
[45:10.760 --> 45:12.480]  It has to be submitted electronically.
[45:12.500 --> 45:13.820]  It's weird how they do things.
[45:13.940 --> 45:20.420]  You know, they must have the same logic when they come up with these rules as they do when they come up with these laws, but you cannot just send them email.
[45:20.520 --> 45:22.400]  You have to send them an attachment to an email.
[45:22.900 --> 45:24.400]  That's the only way they could have accepted.
[45:24.620 --> 45:27.920]  So if you just write something out in email and send it to them, that's not going to work.
[45:28.020 --> 45:34.980]  You have to write something in like Microsoft Word or, or whatever, uh, and attach it as a file attachment and send it.
[45:35.040 --> 45:37.960]  I guess they figure if you don't know how to do that, you're probably not worth...
[45:37.960 --> 45:42.120]  Well, it's probably just that they have a script that goes through and says, Ooh, attachment drops in a folder.
[45:42.440 --> 45:42.620]  Right.
[45:43.500 --> 45:45.440]  Maybe, maybe some script like that.
[45:45.600 --> 45:48.460]  I don't see why they couldn't write a script that'll just move the email over there.
[45:48.900 --> 45:53.360]  Well, in any event, we have two days to get, uh, get the word out on that and get opinions out.
[45:53.620 --> 45:57.180]  Also, there's another demonstration this, uh, this Friday in, uh, Washington DC.
[45:57.360 --> 46:08.920]  You know, I don't have the exact, uh, information as to how to, uh, how to get the, uh, get to the demonstration, but I imagine it's on the, uh, the Washington DC meeting webpage, which you can also get to through 2600.
[46:09.140 --> 46:11.060]  I think it's se2600.org.
[46:11.080 --> 46:12.140]  Is that the webpage?
[46:12.320 --> 46:12.880]  I'm pretty sure it is.
[46:13.060 --> 46:21.920]  But if, if, uh, it's not that just go to the 2600 webpage, look under meetings, Washington DC, you'll see all the information about the demonstration or leafleting on, uh, on Friday.
[46:22.340 --> 46:26.860]  We had a lot of people leafleting two weeks ago, uh, at the 2600 meetings throughout the world.
[46:27.400 --> 46:29.020]  Uh, there's no reason for that to stop.
[46:29.160 --> 46:30.920]  There's no reason for it to only happen once a month.
[46:31.060 --> 46:32.240]  It's going to happen again next month.
[46:32.340 --> 46:32.960]  That's, that's for sure.
[46:33.080 --> 46:36.840]  But, uh, we'd like for people to download the flyers also available on our website.
[46:36.940 --> 46:38.060]  Everything's on our website these days.
[46:38.860 --> 46:40.600]  Um, and just down...
[46:40.600 --> 46:41.640]  that's right.
[46:41.740 --> 46:47.080]  All you gotta do is download the, uh, the, the, uh, the sheet that we made up, printed out make as many copies as you can.
[46:47.400 --> 46:48.820]  And just, uh, go to your local theater.
[46:49.000 --> 46:51.980]  It really is making a difference because people know about this now.
[46:52.200 --> 46:56.280]  A lot of people say they went to a theater in their in their neighborhood and they, they they saw this.
[46:56.440 --> 46:59.500]  And you better believe every theater owner is going to know about this.
[46:59.640 --> 47:03.180]  And ever theater owner is going to talk back to the people that send them the films.
[47:03.180 --> 47:05.240]  And they're going to say, what is this nonsense?
[47:05.240 --> 47:06.380]  What are you doing to these people?
[47:07.500 --> 47:08.960]  And it'll cause a stir.
[47:09.160 --> 47:14.880]  Just like in Bernie S.'s case, just like in Kevin's case, the more people get involved, the more good it does.
[47:15.220 --> 47:15.760]  Right, Bernie?
[47:16.620 --> 47:17.380]  It'd be a lot of good.
[47:17.820 --> 47:18.020]  Yeah.
[47:19.060 --> 47:21.140]  All right, 212-209-2900.
[47:21.540 --> 47:23.100]  Let's take a phone call.
[47:23.540 --> 47:24.100]  Good evening.
[47:24.180 --> 47:24.560]  You're on the air.
[47:25.260 --> 47:25.560]  Yeah.
[47:25.800 --> 47:26.040]  Hi.
[47:26.180 --> 47:26.540]  Am I on?
[47:26.740 --> 47:27.380]  Yes, you're on the air.
[47:27.420 --> 47:28.640]  Okay, a couple of very quick things.
[47:28.800 --> 47:31.760]  Trademark in the Copyright Office on Technology Disclosure.
[47:31.980 --> 47:32.320]  Uh-huh.
[47:32.320 --> 47:35.820]  They will take an attachment as a TXT file.
[47:36.940 --> 47:41.720]  And enabling legislation for that, in fact, was upheld about three months ago.
[47:41.880 --> 47:51.520]  And what they used as underpinning was the, for the very first time, non-disclosure over the public airwaves of cell phone unencrypted conversations.
[47:51.920 --> 47:55.000]  So this has been upheld under that.
[47:55.360 --> 47:56.340]  Okay, second point.
[47:56.840 --> 48:02.200]  The SIN flood thing is actually being done by the Echelon Tiger team.
[48:02.320 --> 48:09.160]  And what the purpose of this is to test the current robustness of IP6.
[48:09.200 --> 48:12.920]  And this is really not much of a secret.
[48:13.180 --> 48:15.520]  And that's why they're going after commercial sites.
[48:15.600 --> 48:18.020]  And they're doing it on a very, very limited basis.
[48:18.080 --> 48:22.140]  It's simply to see, you know, how robust the rest of the network is.
[48:22.140 --> 48:23.440]  Okay, next thing.
[48:24.980 --> 48:32.160]  I don't know whether you guys have mentioned this or not, but the FCC has just had a major rule change on ham radio regulations.
[48:32.400 --> 48:37.440]  And this has really good implications for us because there's no longer a code test.
[48:37.440 --> 48:37.880]  Yes.
[48:38.040 --> 48:40.900]  For a spread spectrum, there's no longer a log.
[48:41.160 --> 48:47.940]  And most importantly, you don't have to use a code which is disclosed, the Modular 2 code.
[48:47.940 --> 48:56.460]  You can use any spread spectrum coding technique you want, including hopping and discrete frequency and a combination of any coding.
[48:56.700 --> 48:57.620]  Next point.
[48:57.860 --> 48:58.600]  What about encryption?
[48:59.480 --> 49:01.720]  Well, there is no encryption per se.
[49:01.720 --> 49:03.700]  You just can use any code you want.
[49:03.820 --> 49:04.260]  I understand.
[49:04.440 --> 49:10.500]  But I believe that there had been federal FCC regulations again sending encrypted data over ham radio.
[49:10.520 --> 49:11.920]  Ham radio can never be encrypted.
[49:12.140 --> 49:19.140]  However, since they will let you use any pseudorandom sequence or cipher you want, it's just as good.
[49:19.440 --> 49:20.260]  Okay, next point.
[49:20.620 --> 49:23.040]  DECSS is actually not a very good implementation.
[49:23.040 --> 49:28.160]  The code that's out on the web and anybody that wants to can find 50 mirror sites with a search engine.
[49:28.600 --> 49:32.640]  And now I've got two quick questions for you guys, and I'm going to hop off the air.
[49:32.700 --> 49:34.120]  Let me just put them both out.
[49:34.220 --> 49:34.980]  I'm trying to catch up.
[49:35.060 --> 49:35.220]  Okay.
[49:35.320 --> 49:35.500]  Okay.
[49:35.540 --> 49:38.460]  The first one is, if you could give us an update.
[49:38.800 --> 49:40.060]  Let me get them both out.
[49:40.220 --> 49:44.380]  The first one is an update on what's happening with Roman Kazan and Escape.
[49:44.580 --> 49:49.720]  And the second one is, I've come across an ad, and I call these people, and they're seemingly for real.
[49:49.720 --> 49:54.720]  It's a free DSL site called inyc.com.
[49:54.840 --> 49:58.400]  And if you guys know anything about inyc.com, I'd appreciate it.
[49:58.400 --> 50:01.100]  If you could tell me otherwise, maybe you could check it out and talk about it next week.
[50:01.200 --> 50:03.860]  So the first question is, what, if anything, has happened to Roman?
[50:04.060 --> 50:06.900]  And the second thing, inyc.com, free DSL.
[50:06.900 --> 50:07.760]  I think you guys are great.
[50:07.840 --> 50:08.020]  Goodbye.
[50:08.280 --> 50:08.520]  Okay.
[50:08.740 --> 50:09.160]  Thanks, Seth.
[50:09.280 --> 50:09.820]  Thanks for calling.
[50:10.660 --> 50:11.040]  Oh, boy.
[50:11.600 --> 50:13.140]  Let me just catch my breath here for a second.
[50:13.160 --> 50:13.860]  Well, I'll let you go for Roman.
[50:13.900 --> 50:14.340]  Well, okay.
[50:14.340 --> 50:15.780]  And I have comments on his previous points.
[50:15.920 --> 50:18.200]  Well, let me just make a comment first about the...
[50:18.200 --> 50:20.840]  I don't know about inyc, but I do know something about DSL.
[50:20.980 --> 50:23.580]  Boy, let me tell you, we've been on DSL now for a week.
[50:23.580 --> 50:27.780]  I cannot tell you how upset I am with the way this thing works.
[50:27.920 --> 50:29.820]  You know, they advertise it as internet access.
[50:29.900 --> 50:30.620]  It never goes down.
[50:30.760 --> 50:32.460]  It's been going down all the time.
[50:32.460 --> 50:34.340]  It goes down 50% of the time.
[50:34.500 --> 50:35.980]  And you know why it went down?
[50:36.160 --> 50:43.900]  Because we had our own personal denial of service attack by some Bell Atlantic technician in the central office who decided to unplug our line on Sunday.
[50:44.060 --> 50:48.880]  And then when they're called about it, they say, well, you know, we don't work on Sunday, so we can't fix it.
[50:48.980 --> 50:51.420]  We can break it on Sunday, but we can't fix it on Sunday.
[50:51.420 --> 50:57.040]  Anyway, so we almost went an entire 24 hours without access thanks to DSL.
[50:57.480 --> 51:02.080]  So if it's free, I don't know if that's a good deal at this point in time.
[51:02.200 --> 51:08.880]  I tend to think that if you listen tomorrow night to the personal computer show, they may have someone who knows more about that.
[51:09.020 --> 51:10.080]  Yeah, that's a good idea.
[51:10.180 --> 51:13.320]  Listen tomorrow at this time from 8 to 9, personal computer show.
[51:13.600 --> 51:13.940]  Tell them to say hi.
[51:14.200 --> 51:14.360]  Yeah.
[51:14.520 --> 51:18.720]  In fact, I might be a caller talking about DSL on that show and the pitfalls of it.
[51:18.720 --> 51:33.520]  Now, as for Roman Kazan, yeah, he's the person who runs escape.com, also named in the lawsuit because one of his users, unbeknownst to him, on a website at a computer that he doesn't even have, had a copy of the source code.
[51:33.580 --> 51:35.640]  It's like these people just don't do their homework at all.
[51:35.740 --> 51:42.140]  Well, the DMCA is supposed to have a protection for service providers and their clients for exactly the situation.
[51:42.140 --> 51:47.980]  The judge said that he did not prove that he was an internet service provider, and even if he did, it doesn't matter.
[51:48.220 --> 51:48.780]  And that's it.
[51:48.780 --> 51:48.940]  What?
[51:49.020 --> 51:50.140]  That's what the judge said.
[51:50.220 --> 51:53.400]  Now, I don't know what this judge is smoking, but that's what he said.
[51:53.760 --> 51:59.520]  And the reason why he was not able to prove it was because we were given a total of eight hours to sum up everything.
[51:59.700 --> 52:00.280]  And you know what?
[52:00.540 --> 52:02.100]  I'm still waiting for...
[52:02.100 --> 52:05.500]  I was supposed to prove that we're a corporation so that I don't get charged as an individual.
[52:05.740 --> 52:07.080]  We had eight hours to do this.
[52:07.180 --> 52:08.140]  It takes three weeks.
[52:12.280 --> 52:15.680]  These people had months to prepare their case against us.
[52:15.880 --> 52:20.000]  We're given eight hours to prepare our defense against them.
[52:20.140 --> 52:26.500]  And then when we're not able to do this impossible task, the judge goes on record as saying that we have filed no objections.
[52:26.860 --> 52:28.000]  It's ludicrous.
[52:28.740 --> 52:30.540]  And yeah, contempt of court.
[52:30.560 --> 52:31.580]  I have contempt of court.
[52:31.680 --> 52:33.700]  I have contempt of that kind of ridiculousness.
[52:34.000 --> 52:34.440]  Jeez.
[52:35.760 --> 52:38.100]  It goes against everything this country stands for.
[52:38.320 --> 52:38.860]  Well, not everything.
[52:39.360 --> 52:40.060]  Most things.
[52:40.220 --> 52:40.460]  Most things.
[52:40.680 --> 52:40.960]  A lot of it.
[52:40.960 --> 52:41.440]  All right.
[52:41.500 --> 52:42.140]  That's enough of that.
[52:42.540 --> 52:43.840]  Any other comments on that last call?
[52:43.920 --> 52:44.460]  We've got to move on.
[52:44.780 --> 52:46.340]  Oh, the Tiger team.
[52:46.640 --> 52:47.780]  The NSA Tiger team.
[52:47.980 --> 52:48.140]  Yeah.
[52:48.420 --> 52:49.500]  That's kind of interesting.
[52:50.500 --> 52:51.800]  He mentioned IPv6.
[52:51.960 --> 52:56.620]  I'm not aware that any of these companies are using IPv6 tunnels anywhere.
[52:56.860 --> 52:57.440]  Yeah, I don't think they are.
[52:57.440 --> 53:02.420]  I'm pretty sure that if you go down there, only the real tech heads would even know what IPv6 is.
[53:03.400 --> 53:04.860]  I had an article on that two issues ago.
[53:04.860 --> 53:25.040]  But it would not be so far removed from my consideration that a federal agency or a third party attached to a federal agency or a corporation or a third party attached to a corporation would do something like this in order to push legislation or receive funding or do something like that.
[53:25.540 --> 53:27.040]  Well, all I know is...
[53:27.040 --> 53:28.360]  I wouldn't put it past them.
[53:28.420 --> 53:28.920]  Let's put it that way.
[53:28.960 --> 53:31.420]  They have no idea who did it, yet they know hackers did it.
[53:31.420 --> 53:33.060]  I sure hope they can prove something like that.
[53:33.220 --> 53:34.740]  Well, I wonder where Barbara McNamara is.
[53:34.840 --> 53:35.200]  Supposedly...
[53:35.200 --> 53:41.660]  Well, supposedly I heard that they seized a computer today in Oregon and that they think that this has something to do with it.
[53:41.720 --> 53:43.060]  So I'd like to hear more about it.
[53:43.140 --> 53:47.720]  But, you know, no matter who they find, I'll bet bottom dollar it's not a hacker.
[53:47.920 --> 53:52.060]  Or if it is a hacker, it's somebody who wasn't hacking at the time, just being a moron.
[53:52.240 --> 53:53.940]  But, I don't know.
[53:54.480 --> 53:58.380]  Yeah, the ham radio rule changes, as this guy mentioned, too, are pretty interesting.
[53:59.280 --> 54:01.320]  I've been waiting for these to come out pretty soon.
[54:01.420 --> 54:02.480]  We didn't know...
[54:02.480 --> 54:03.660]  I didn't know they were released yet.
[54:03.820 --> 54:05.600]  But, I'll find out for next week.
[54:05.760 --> 54:07.020]  This is pretty significant.
[54:07.280 --> 54:20.280]  This opens up a whole realm of truly free data communications and voice communications to the whole population, assuming they just get some reasonably inexpensive equipment.
[54:20.280 --> 54:22.620]  So, I recommend you check out...
[54:22.620 --> 54:32.140]  Probably the best way to find the information out is check out the American Radio Relay League's website, which is www.arrl.org.
[54:32.520 --> 54:35.680]  And you can find information out about how to get a ham radio license.
[54:36.140 --> 54:38.920]  It would be a simple test instead of having to know the Morse code now.
[54:39.120 --> 54:42.320]  And you can engage in what's called packet radio.
[54:42.320 --> 55:00.600]  And you can send data through these repeaters and satellites, which are owned by non-profit organizations, and literally send digital messages all around the globe and get responses quickly without having to pay any user fees.
[55:00.700 --> 55:02.660]  You're not allowed to use encryption, though.
[55:02.940 --> 55:03.820]  You cannot yet.
[55:03.820 --> 55:07.020]  However, what this guy said is you could use any kind of modulation method.
[55:07.420 --> 55:14.980]  So, it could prevent people from easily monitoring certain hops of the transmission, but not the whole thing.
[55:15.160 --> 55:24.360]  So, no, it's still illegal under F.C.'s regulations to use the amateur radio bands or ham radio bands to use encrypted data over that.
[55:24.520 --> 55:26.420]  Now, I'm not saying people haven't done it.
[55:26.520 --> 55:29.080]  I'm just saying it's against the rules to do that.
[55:29.220 --> 55:32.800]  And, frankly, it would be very hard to prove whether it's encrypted data or not.
[55:32.800 --> 55:38.720]  I don't know of anybody who's ever even been cited or sent what's called a para-notice of liability.
[55:38.740 --> 55:41.340]  Bernie, what is the rationale behind that?
[55:41.400 --> 55:42.660]  Why is it not legal?
[55:43.240 --> 55:44.940]  Well, the FCC...
[55:44.940 --> 55:47.360]  One of the rationales, you cannot use...
[55:47.360 --> 55:48.500]  You cannot use...
[55:48.500 --> 55:49.620]  It's like the Internet used to be.
[55:49.860 --> 55:58.360]  You cannot use the amateur radio airwaves for commercial purposes, which I agree with completely.
[55:59.240 --> 56:08.720]  In order to assist in the compliance with that rule, they need to know what's being said ostensibly.
[56:08.860 --> 56:10.400]  So, they need to be able to monitor stuff.
[56:10.640 --> 56:11.880]  They need to be able to monitor stuff.
[56:12.020 --> 56:12.480]  Not that...
[56:12.480 --> 56:16.080]  I mean, it'd be impossible for them to monitor all the ham radio transmissions to go over...
[56:16.080 --> 56:16.960]  I mean, literally, there's...
[56:16.960 --> 56:23.280]  It's not something NSA can monitor, because a lot of this stuff is not long-range, where they have access through a central location kind of thing.
[56:24.520 --> 56:25.180]  It's a...
[56:25.180 --> 56:27.520]  You know, ham radio is relatively...
[56:27.520 --> 56:34.860]  I can't say it's secure, but the odds of someone else monitoring a particular data burst is very slim, and depending on...
[56:34.860 --> 56:37.960]  There's literally tens of thousands of different frequencies you can choose from.
[56:38.260 --> 56:38.300]  True.
[56:38.300 --> 56:38.540]  Yeah.
[56:39.020 --> 56:40.900]  All right, let's move on to another phone call, see if we can...
[56:40.900 --> 56:41.180]  It's great phone.
[56:47.400 --> 56:51.720]  Is there a technical reference guide to the telecommunications infrastructure?
[56:52.700 --> 56:53.080]  Whoa.
[56:53.660 --> 56:54.380]  There's a question.
[56:54.480 --> 56:56.900]  Is there, like, a book that Radio Shack sells that's kind of good for that?
[56:57.040 --> 56:57.220]  What?
[56:57.440 --> 56:57.700]  Bernie?
[56:57.900 --> 57:00.020]  Introduction to all things telecommunications.
[57:00.060 --> 57:01.080]  Bernie, do you know what I'm talking about?
[57:01.080 --> 57:08.280]  There was a good ride written by the Texas Instruments Learning Center that Radio Shack sold called Understanding Telephone Systems.
[57:08.460 --> 57:08.600]  Yes.
[57:08.600 --> 57:09.540]  I'm not sure if they still sell it.
[57:09.540 --> 57:10.620]  It was actually pretty well written.
[57:11.020 --> 57:16.620]  I don't know if they have an updated version or not, but it was a good guide.
[57:17.260 --> 57:17.700]  Okay.
[57:18.040 --> 57:18.720]  For a beginner.
[57:18.940 --> 57:19.920]  Move on to another call here.
[57:20.000 --> 57:20.320]  Good evening.
[57:20.520 --> 57:21.340]  You're on the air.
[57:21.920 --> 57:22.200]  Yeah.
[57:22.340 --> 57:22.600]  Hi.
[57:22.740 --> 57:34.780]  About that ham radio thing, a couple points that the earlier guy didn't mention, which I thought I would, and by the way, the fellow that got all his facts right, the fellow that's there with you, a couple of points.
[57:34.920 --> 57:46.100]  First of all, the multiple choice test now to get a ham radio license is something that anybody that ever took high school science could study for and pass in 15 minutes.
[57:46.100 --> 57:47.120]  I mean, it's really...
[57:47.120 --> 57:51.520]  And they give the test to all the ham fests and all the local ham fests.
[57:51.720 --> 57:58.200]  The second thing is, it is now legal to put data over spread spectrum.
[57:58.360 --> 58:01.700]  And if you know anything about spread spectrum, nobody can eavesdrop on it.
[58:02.420 --> 58:08.580]  In the past, the FCC said, well, if they could find you, you had to use this Modular 2 code, and I've been doing this for years.
[58:08.880 --> 58:10.740]  Now you can use any code you want.
[58:10.740 --> 58:27.460]  The third thing, and this is probably the most important that either your fellow there or the other guy didn't mention, is that the FCC has explicitly said it is now permitted to interconnect digital over spread spectrum over ham radio to the Internet.
[58:28.660 --> 58:31.340]  And that just really has...
[58:31.340 --> 58:33.120]  It opens up all kinds of...
[58:33.120 --> 58:33.860]  Oh, tremendous.
[58:34.220 --> 58:34.820]  There's an Ethernet autopilot.
[58:35.480 --> 58:39.320]  There's one kind of quirky constraint on this.
[58:39.520 --> 58:40.420]  You can't run...
[58:40.420 --> 58:43.160]  Most ham radio operators can run up to 1,000 watts.
[58:43.320 --> 58:45.680]  With spread spectrum, you can only run 100 watts.
[58:45.960 --> 58:47.000]  That's a hell of a lot of power.
[58:47.120 --> 58:48.140]  It's an enormous amount of power.
[58:48.220 --> 59:06.500]  But what the regs say, if you go to either the FCC or the ARRL, which you mentioned, which is www.arrl.org or fcc.gov, what they say is, but you shall not use any more power than is necessary for your communication.
[59:06.680 --> 59:07.420]  They've been saying that forever.
[59:07.640 --> 59:08.280]  That's always been...
[59:08.280 --> 59:08.480]  That's right.
[59:08.660 --> 59:13.660]  No, no, but for spread spectrum in particular, what they're concerned about is that it'll raise the noise floor for everybody else.
[59:13.920 --> 59:14.020]  Right.
[59:14.060 --> 59:16.460]  So what you have to do is throttle back the power.
[59:16.680 --> 59:33.100]  But, you know, if you are out in the field, what we're going to see is, I would say, three, four years, we're going to see just a boom of guys like us that'll all have H&M radio licenses, and they'll have a thing that'll plug into their laptop.
[59:34.020 --> 59:37.460]  And because it's spread spectrum, you'll be able to run 64 KB.
[59:39.640 --> 59:40.840]  And it's going to be great.
[59:41.000 --> 59:46.860]  I mean, this has gotten even less attention in the business with the 10-watt low-power FM.
[59:46.980 --> 59:49.080]  Okay, we're down to our last 10 seconds, so please wrap it up.
[59:49.260 --> 59:50.760]  Okay, well, that's a good way to wrap it up.
[59:51.160 --> 59:52.620]  But, okay, well...
[59:52.620 --> 59:55.540]  I, for one, encourage everyone to go out and get your amateur radio license.
[59:55.760 --> 59:59.200]  It is the most fun you will ever have, and I would love to see the community grow.
[59:59.500 --> 01:00:09.220]  It's been dwindling for the past decades, but I, for one, look forward to the day where you can walk down the street, see another ham who's using the frequencies, and say hello.
[01:00:09.980 --> 01:00:11.160]  Chris, Peter, any...
[01:00:11.160 --> 01:00:12.820]  And there's no excuse not to get it now.
[01:00:12.820 --> 01:00:13.860]  You don't have to know Morse code.
[01:00:14.000 --> 01:00:19.600]  You can get a book and study for a day and pass the test and get on the air and have a lot of fun.
[01:00:19.700 --> 01:00:21.080]  It's like current voltage, wattage.
[01:00:21.220 --> 01:00:22.380]  It's simple stuff from high school science.
[01:00:22.420 --> 01:00:27.360]  Chris, Chris Petra, any final words for you as the internet prankster of the week?
[01:00:28.220 --> 01:00:28.660]  No, no.
[01:00:28.720 --> 01:00:36.180]  My only thing would just be to, you know, encourage everyone to secure their networks a little more and help prevent some of the crazy mischief we've seen over the last couple of weeks.
[01:00:36.180 --> 01:00:36.460]  Well, it wasn't even a network.
[01:00:36.580 --> 01:00:38.060]  It was just a channel, an IRC.
[01:00:38.060 --> 01:00:42.560]  Oh, I mean, as far as the things happening over the past couple of weeks that were genuinely destructive.
[01:00:43.040 --> 01:00:43.240]  Mm-hmm.
[01:00:43.660 --> 01:00:43.920]  Okay.
[01:00:43.980 --> 01:00:46.860]  Well, you let us know if, you know, if the Fed's come a-knocking or anything like that.
[01:00:47.060 --> 01:00:47.360]  Definitely.
[01:00:47.920 --> 01:00:49.220]  Hopefully, that won't be the case.
[01:00:49.460 --> 01:00:52.220]  We'll keep people informed of what goes on with that.
[01:00:52.900 --> 01:00:54.740]  Bernie, thanks very much for being part of the show.
[01:00:55.000 --> 01:00:55.400]  Thank you.
[01:00:55.500 --> 01:00:56.920]  We'll talk to you again sometime soon.
[01:00:57.060 --> 01:00:58.560]  Isaac, we'll talk to you next week.
[01:00:58.720 --> 01:00:59.800]  And this is Emmanuel.
[01:01:00.220 --> 01:01:03.180]  We'll probably have Kevin on next week, and we'll update people on what's going on.
[01:01:03.580 --> 01:01:10.640]  I understand there's a Village Voice interview with him that will be published whenever the Village Voice comes out, which I think is tonight.
[01:01:11.280 --> 01:01:15.940]  So, those of you in the city who want to camp out at the newsstands, think they'll be in this week's edition.
[01:01:16.140 --> 01:01:16.540]  We'll see.
[01:01:17.500 --> 01:01:20.100]  Till then, till next week, Emmanuel Goldstein for Off the Hook.
[01:01:20.240 --> 01:01:20.440]  Good night.